New York is always on the forefront of new ways to tax its citizens.
I have a few questions: how much will all the new electronic readers cost? Will they be maintained as flawlessly as subway signals? How will the tolls be collected if you do not have EZ Pass? Are they really going to put scanners on every avenue at 96th Street? The media has done a very poor job of actually explaining to us how this will work.
20
This is just another idea that in the end won’t deliver on its promises
Look at London after their congestion charge went into effect traffic volumes dropped for 2 weeks and returned to their previous levels
The $$ isn’t going to fix the subways and buses it’s going to go into another unaccountable bottomless pit
As an ex manhattanite I suggest the following
1- no commercial deliveries between 8 am -6 pm Monday thru Friday
2- get rid out of idiotic bike lanes
3- rip up the pedestrian plazas in places like time square
4- adjust street meters so prices are higher during peak usage
5- this last one won’t be popular but the subway fare is artificially low experts have said it should be increased by 50-75 cents a trip still far less than the cost involved in owning and operating a car
9
@El Barto - cars can't own our cities. It's unhealthy, unproductive and time and again studies show that making it easier to get cars somewhere simply results in more cars.
But you made an incorrect statement right at the start about the impact of London's congestion pricing.
"By many important measures, the charge has been a success: The number of vehicles driving into Central London is a quarter lower than a decade ago. The charge has been particularly successful at deterring personal use cars from entering Central London: the number of private cars entering the zone fell 39 percent between 2002 and 2014."
https://theconversation.com/london-congestion-charge-what-worked-what-didnt-what-next-92478
The problem they're having now is that one group of vehicles that are exempt for the charge have boomed - the private hired car - Uber, Lyft, etc.
More about it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge
8
B fagan
I never said anything about cars owning our cuties.what I should have said is that there needs to be a balance between cars trucks buses delivery vehicles etc
There’s another thing that you and most people don’t realize - London is geographically twice the size of nyc and is not an island
Maybe statistically the number of private vehicles entering central London has dropped but my friends have told me that there is a minimal reduction in traffic nor the 39% you quoted ( I sent them the article)
1
@El Barto - have your friends considered how much worse it would have become in London without the congestion pricing? Every time you encourage more cars you get them, and it's simply impossible to think clearing the streets of everything but cars would do anything but add to gridlock. Uber and Lyft are adding to congestion here in Chicago, I'm betting it's the same there.
I lived in Manhattan, too, and banning deliveries during the day would be great - except think about this - the noise of every store having trucks pulling up, slamming doors up, unloading/reloading all night long, plus the sound of the truck traffic all night long. It really would become the city that never sleeps.
Buses carry more people than cars, so I'd say sorry, cars. Bikes pollute less and are less likely to contribute to gridlock so I still say sorry, cars.
If every driver in NYC was paying attention, not distracted, not likely to park in bike lanes or door cyclists, then the cyclists wouldn't need protection, but all these things happen. But I'd work out licensing for cyclists, and ticket them when they get out of line, too. Their license revenues could help with upkeep on bike parking and lanes.
I owned a car when I lived in Manhattan but don't as a Chicago resident and don't plan to ever own one again. And here I'd be willing to expand something that's happening for the rail commuters who come into downtown each day - electric buses. They're wonderful. No diesel fumes, none of the noise.
3
Hope this includes tolls on all bridges into Manhattan. Congestion pricing was needed 25 years ago and that need has only increased in the interim. The technology is here. Do it. Make sure the money is strenuously accounted for. Delivery trucks at night with night staff to accept them would also help a lot. On a recent ride down Fifth Avenue on a bus, it was delivery trucks that presented the most obstacles; "parking" (meaning stopped with flashers going) in travel lanes on both sides of the street. Congestion pricing is good for revenue, good for air pollution and good for public safety response times. Do it!
4
You think the tax is gonna improve the subways, think again.
Just like the lottery was supposed to save our schools.
Just have the trucks make deliveries between 7PM and 7AM
and you will have solved the problem.
Yes, hire someone to accept deliveries in the evening hours.
10
@New World
I got one more thing to say.
I’ve been riding the subways alone and with my friends since 1964. Care-fare was 15 cents, one way. The tiny tokens with the “Y” cut out. There was no air conditioning
and they moved slower then today. Mostly todays subways are better, not worse. AND
A slice of pizza in 1964 was, 15 cents. Those slices were kind OK but not nearly as good as today’s pizza.
The price of a subway and the price of a Ny slice of pizzY
have always moved in sync.
Both today’s subways and today’s pizza have improved.
We are making progress.
8
I appreciate when a subway station has an elevator. But that has nothing to do with the so called “subway crisis of constant breakdowns and delays” that is being used as a justification for congestion pricing. But according to this article, the proceeds are not going to be used to fix the delays and breakdowns, but for the capital projects budget. The public is being hoodwinked by the politicians once again. When the city builds a new park or playground, should they put toll booths on the local streets to pay for it?
4
Why the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg and 59st bridges are not tolled in these days of easy pass is unfathomable to me The current system distorts traffic, especially commercial traffic through lower Manhattan streets. Correcting that seems a much more logic first step than this plan.
6
@Todd
It's mainly because their tolls went to just paying off the bonds that were to build them and were agreed to be removed once that was done rather than as some revenue source that would make them higher than they need to.
1
@Todd..it's always easy to demand new taxes and tolls from other people, especially when they are from the boroughs.
4
Though I support certain ways to implement congestion pricing, there are better ways to fund the subway and buses.
I recommend that the MTA request bids from interested parties on a contract to operate the subway and bus system.
I suspect that the lowest bid would be much lower than the MTA's present operating costs.
@David Weinkrantz - and how does putting the lowest bidder in charge of a massive, aging infrastructure system lead to improvements in long-term reliability?
Stuff costs money. Build something, you have to immediately start putting money aside for upkeep and repair. I don't understand why taxpayers constantly talk themselves out of this very commonsense idea each time it comes for upkeep on what we all own.
The alternative is like what's happening in some cities like Omaha, where they've decided to just stop paving some of their roads. Tear it up and put it back to gravel. It lowers taxes a bit, sure. Because the people who drive those roads are spending an average of $114 more on repairs to windshields, shocks, etc. Plus dealing with the dust.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/us/omahas-answer-to-costly-potholes-go-back-to-gravel-roads.html
3
I'm mesmerized by how the congestion fee could be opposed on the ground that it would hurt poor people.
It's designed to do exactly the opposite. Charge those who can afford a car and elect to drive it in the most congested part of the city to subsidize the public transportation system that is used by everyone who cannot afford a car.
Fewer cars translate into faster buses and thus more users and thus more revenues and thus better infrastructure.
That's how you start a virtuous cycle.
15
@C In NY
I feel that you tend to look at the effects of the opposition rather than the causes. According to realtors, it actually costs more to live where transit is more convenient compared to where it isn't. They would never want any cheaper housing that happen to be in what they consider a prestigious location. It's not surprising to see areas where public housing to have little to no subway lines in their areas while luxury condos dominate around most transit hubs. There is a reason to why those areas are known as transit deserts in the first place and make so many have to drive for having so few options, which is why they will see congestion pricing as both a regressive tax and punishment for them in having such a nature.
3
I really do hope that those in Albany who still oppose congestion pricing can stop it before the deadline. All it really is nothing more than a regressive tax to those who can't afford it as well as punishment to those who have hardly any viable alternatives to driving. Just recently, I went to a hearing over at Cooper Union and I heard from a lot of people who believed that it's better to not have it mainly because they feel that as those who drive they will be punished greatly for it. Others claimed that they should be exempt or getting a discount rather than paying for it the same way everyone else should. Making the claim that it will be a good alternative to a possible fare hike by the MTA I feel is bogus, because I think the MTA will go with that fare hike either way and regardless of the outcome. As long as the MTA continues to mismanage their existing revenues, nothing will ever change, which is why we should have a more thorough audit on the MTA and even holding them accountable for their actions, which even Manhattan Borough President Gale Brewer agreed with me on. Then again, the anti-car fanatics will probably hate this especially if it will make congestion pricing feel both obsolete and unnecessary. Overall, if this idea dies once again, it shouldn't be brought back ever again. Don't amend this idea, end this idea for good!
5
@Tal Barzilai Sorry Tal, if you want to drive your car into the city from Sprawlsville, you need to pay up. Cars impose lots of costs on those of us who live in the city and don't own them--in terms of pollution, congestion, noise and infrastructure wear and tear. It's about time you and other motorists started offsetting those costs with a badly needed contribution to the transit system which is the city's lifeblood.
13
@Tal Barzilai
I already do a pay a lot of fees to maintain my car through licensing, registration, and inspection almost every year. I get fined if I fail to keep with any of them. BTW, I do already pay my taxes to keep up with roads and crossings via taxes for infrastructure. I tend to see tolling as a form of double tipping at certain restaurants where I have to leave a tip even though it was already included in the bill. What I can't understand is why those who use the subways can't seem to fund it without some outside source(s) to cover for it. For the record, I drive a Honda Civic, which is very energy efficient.
3
@Tal Barzilai What I don't understand is the delusion of motorists who think that their paltry fees and gas taxes actually pay the staggering costs required to sustain their driving habit--from the costs imposed on all of us in the form of climate change and environmental degradation, to the tax dollars required to maintain all of their roads, bridges and parking lots. Let's make a deal, I'll pay 100% of the cost of my Metrocard swipe when you pay 100% of the real cost of driving around your "energy efficient" Honda Civic. (Let's compare the efficiency of your Honda Civic to a subway train packed with a thousand passengers). Trust me, you won't like the trade.
10
It is long past time to implement a congestion charge. No one has a right to drive for free into one of the most densely populated cities on earth. The entitlement of motorists is breathtaking: everyone but them should bear the cost of the pollution, congestion, noise and degradation of the urban quality of life that they cause. Sorry, street space in Manhattan is a precious commodity, and if you want to use it, pay up, so we can offset the cost of your selfishness with improvements to transit. If you don't like it, move to Houston. I would only advocate expanding the congestion zone to cover all of Manhattan, LIC and Downtown Brooklyn.
18
After reading many of the heartfelt comments here, this Fly Over Country guy realizes more clearly than ever the impossibility of pleasing all the people all the time.
People will be angry if you do something or nothing. It's a lose/lose situation. How do you guys live like that? Is that why you frown all the time?
Escape, flee, abscond, bolt, decamp, if you can. Living's easy out here. But you'd have to learn to smile, slow down, and talk to people. (It's not as bad as it sounds.)
5
@Jim Muncy No thanks, I would die of boredom.
5
@Jim Muncy I'm a 14 year NYer who has, intermittently, lived in Vermont and Virginia. And loved it! Neither place was boring by any means, it simply offered other things to do than weave through crowded streets to get to a bar and pay $14 for a cocktail. I think that's what Dennis likes. That aside, as someone who works in the arts, I consistently found that there was an absolute dearth of employment available to me. So while the quality of life was high, and the cost of living lower than Brooklyn, where I currently reside, only once in a blue moon did a job in my field that paid over $30,000 come up. Even if your rent is $600 a month and parking is included, that doesn't go far, you still end up hustling on the side to make it all work.
5
@Susanne
Yeah, it's a trade-off. But cities are crowded for a reason: They offer jobs, excitement, variety, culture, entertainment, education, and great varieties of food.
3
The situation is complicated for us in NYC, with long and short term fixes to consider. But we have to start someplace. I fully support the congestion tax as a short term plan, even though I'm fed up with high taxes in this city (as a single adult without dependents or property).
I'm proud of the fact that we have a reasonably well run subway system, however archaic, at such low cost. I used to live in DC and was paying a lot more than $128 per month for unlimited train/bus pass. I'm also not aware of any other 24/7, low cost monthly subsidy subway systems in the US. While we have a lot of problems at the top, missed opportunities to appropriate funds more efficiently to make this city all that it could be, I don't see a way out of this mess without coughing up more cash upfront, at least in the short term.
2
@Brooklyn It's only a "low cost" because New York riders pay a wildly disproportionate share of that ride compared to Berlin, Brussels, Chicago or San Francisco.
Let's get real here: regardless of how the rest of the state views NYC as aberrational, we pay the bills -- and not just for the state but for large swathes of the country. No one else -- for better or worse -- wields the financial power of NYC. The notion that only those who live in NYC should pay for a transit system that runs the city is nonsense. I'm sorry that the subsidized ranchers in Montana and Idaho and Wyoming (water, grazing, mineral rights) don't grasp that reality, but I'm only the messenger delivering the bad news.
Congestion pricing means more money for the subway; and the subway makes NYC run. There isn't enough time in any given day to explain to the folks in other parts of the US why that is so, but regardless -- they depend mightily on NYC.
10
Here is a helpful link to London's experience with congestion pricing... With some of the expected positive and negative outcomes.
https://theconversation.com/london-congestion-charge-what-worked-what-didnt-what-next-92478
2
It’s horrible the city is looking for another way to tax. New York City already has an aggressive force of “brown clowns” ticketing maids. If the city wants to eliminate congestion limit TLC drivers hours, and remove bus and bike lanes.
6
@Alex - eliminate congestion by making it easier for people to drive into town.
And how does that work?
4
"poised to become the first city" in the US to introduce congestion pricing.....that seems to be laying it on prettyyy thick.
....like bragging about being the "first" city to create a big problem and then make an unproven attempt to solve it. hi fives all around
13
Soon I predict a Birth Tax to ease congestion at its source. Prolific procreators can purchase an EZ pass to just wave into the maternity ward.
14
Another un-thought out plan by NY pols and diblasio and Cuomo in particular. And the NYT is running another article today about how much money is lost to MTA due to fare jumpers. And let's not mention subsidies they want to give to "poor" NYC residents. So the answer is charge workers from the boroughs and nj to pay for the subway. Otherwise subway fares will need to go up 30%. Yeah, so? Costs me $15 just to cross the GWB from NJ because I need to be at work (different locations most days) at 6:30 or 7am, carrying tools. Cant get their by bus or train because commuter train isn't running at 5am yet and bus schedule is unreliable at that hour. So I have to drive, and pay $15 toll plus parking. On a workingman's pay. So now people like me should feel it's ok to continue to allow fare jumpers and "poor" subsidies and then have me pay for the MTA problems with cash management, infrastructure and political corruption? How about a big tax on Manhattan residents with cars? That hits the people who, in general, dont need a car in the city and those are the people who can most afford that tax.
22
First they told the cops hands off , now they want them to enforce the law .. of course cause it’s about the greenbacks
3
This is Democrats in control of the following posts: Mayor, Governor, state senate and assembly.
Lost 27b in tax revenue
Lost 44k jobs
Scared away for a decade to come any large company thinking of settling down over here
Would rather have an area remain a pile of mud rather than developing it
Instead, we get more taxes
We live in a city that already charges 3 taxes per pay check: federal, state and NY City tax.
On top of that the Democrats want me to pay even more taxes?
That while trumpeting a win of gifting lower subway fares to any one who wants to call themselves poor.
And using tons of money to help out illegals in the city.
I am beginning to wonder what is the point of trying to make it and survive in NYC? The better you do, the more squished you get.
I know what political party is not on my side.
19
@AutumnLeaf
AGREE with everything you said but this is not a tax! it is a user fee. meaning you can avoid paying if you don't use the central business disgrict with a vehicle.
and it is guaranteed to save us all time and stress, which equals money, which equals a .... small but real .... tax credit!!
2
Congestion pricing is a regressive tax on the working class. It is medieval and despicable. Our political leaders are too cowardly and corrupt to get the revenue they need from the people who have benefited the most from the infrastructure the city needs to repair.
10
It's a fee on the privileged who can afford the luxury of driving their own car into the most congested part of the city as a means to subsidize public transport for the truly needy who cannot afford a car and are stuck with a horrible transportation system.
Fewer cars translate into faster buses and thus more users and thus more revenues and thus better infrastructure.
That's how you start a virtuous cycle.
3
Would the plan exempt carpoolers? Most people I know who live in areas with poor mass transit options and who choose to drive, carpool so they can share the cost. It is not a luxury nor would they be considered privileged. If public transportation means you would be commuting 2 hours to work each way, shouldn’t driving be an option for you to choose without being penalized for not being able to afford housing closer to good mass transit? I don’t understand how the city can push working class people further and further away from its commercial centers because of a dearth of affordable housing and then make getting to work that much more expensive.
1
@Joe - in NYC, the city with the lowest percentage of car owners in the country, and one of the highest rates of mass transit use, how is this an attack on the working class?
And putting aside the name calling, where is your plan for raising revenue to fix the mass transit most of the working class of New York depends on?
3
Lets think of some of the ways NYC could have raised money without resorting to slapping a street tax on its beleaguered citizens. They could have : legalized sports betting and slapped a nice tax on that, people would have like that, because people enjoy gambling. They could have legalized weed, which people would have cheered for various reason. none of that, no way, Manhattan is fast becoming a no fun zone. A grim mirthless vista, where you feel unwelcome. its been a slow change from the days when new York city was known as fun city, that is long gone, what is left is a Manhattan for the one percent, charmless, soulless as a ghost. forcing the grubby working class underground and out of sight.
7
Bloomberg’s Sadik -Khan purposely created most of the congestion in lower Manhattan. She even boasted about it. So the way I see it, if someone can afford to sit on the middle of Broadway, a major traffic artery squeezed down to one lane, sipping an $8 soy latte ventri machianato with a two buck tip for the waiter, well then cough up another five buck for the congestion you are causing. There should be a meter where you buy a ticket to show to the traffic agent or get a $65 fine if you “forgot”.
3
How is someone “too poor to take public transit”? How is someone so poor that they “have to drive in Manhattan”?
11
@transitman Housing near subway lines is usually less affordable, especially by multi-line hubs. Lower income folks tend to end up in the zones of the city without much mass transit service.
3
Still. If one can afford a car, insurance, gas, parking etc., one is definitely better off than those who cannot afford a car and must use public transit no matter what.
8
Read the details. There are many exceptions which assure only a partial reduction in congestion. New York City was fully built long before automobiles and trucks became the primary forms of local transportation. Look at the region from the sky at night and most areas around Manhattan are dominated by the human geography of the car culture.
It is astonishing to me that any sober and perceptive public official involved with transportation thinks that the problems with traffic congestion can be solved by discouraging the use of automobiles. It’s some kind of crazy denial of a frustratingly difficult problem.
1
I am an RN at Mt Sinai West. The parking is on 59th and 10th.
There is NO easy transport from Westchester to my job, and I am already covering bridge, parking and gas fees.
I believe health care employees within the hospital who geographically lie under 60th St should also be exempt.
5
This is so Bloomberg. It should have been buried or cremated when his third term ended.
Congestion pricing (CP) portends a nightmare for those who reside in parts of Manhattan ex the super rich UES or UWS. The problem is most commercial vehicles come in and are headed to midtown. With CP, these drivers will still drive in. But, they will park their vehicles in upper Manhattan, monopolizing already deficient parking spaces residents covet in uppper manhattan. This already happens. With CP, the scale will be exponential, and catastrophic for residents who park on/near their residential blocks.
SOLUTION: The bill must include a provision that commercial vehicles headed to midtown must be identified and ticketed if they “Hog” parking spaces in residential areas.
3
I don't get the obsession with exemptions for medical appointments. We don't give it to subway riders. And who are the "poor" who own cars in NYC, but can't afford the toll? Have the welfare queens in Cadillacs returned? And how do they pay for parking if they are too poor to afford the toll? This exemption would be a gift to those who work off the books.
10
@Martin
Actually the “welfare queens” call 911 for an ambulance whenever they have a medical appointment. And try billing them for that
4
Not sure it's a good idea. Would/could reduce noise and air pollution, but then do New Yorkers trust the Transport Authority, or even the city council, to actually use that money to fix the subways? What is the cost in labor due to excessive monies demanded by the unions? In the end, this will not help as there is a hunger that is too strong for those in local government and the unions to take as much as they can. Maybe actual subway improvements will get 10%?
Don't count on the revenue.
1
Driving into Manhattan should be a luxury, not a right. The tradesmen who must schlep their tools in their cars will doubtless pass on the cost of this tax onto their employers. It will be added to the cost of doing business. So be it.
Anecdotally, it feels like the city is becoming more packed with cars as the MTA keeps slipping into disrepair. We need more bikes and bike lanes and fewer cars, driving slower, on the streets.
Congestion pricing isn't a panacea, the MTA is a money pit, and we've got lots of problems to solve to drag NYC into the 21st century, but raising dedicated money for mass transit is a good start.
27
These same outer borough politicians who loudly oppose congestion pricing have stood by idly as their constituents have endured punishing annual increases in their property taxes, most of whom do not generally drive into midtown Manhattan.
9
The first political campaign I ever worked for was Norman Mailer's run for Mayor of NYC in 1969. The campaign's radical proposals for solving the City's myriad problems included a plan for fixing traffic congestion on Manhattan:
All private cars would be banned from Manhattan Island. Buses and taxicabs would be permitted, with the number of cabs increased. Parking lots would be built outside Manhattan at strategic locations. A monorail, built around the circumference of Manhattan, would service these lots, stopping also at rail stations and water ferry terminals. A free bus and jitney service would operate in Midtown, the city's most congested area. Publicly owned bicycles would be available to all at no cost. (From a Mailer-Breslin campaign handbill.)
Still the best suggestion, 50 years later.
9
Born and bred in NYC but I'm glad I moved out 10 years ago because of the high cost of living.
Don't plan on ever moving back, ever.
And now congestion pricing, NEVER !
5
It is sad that Governor Cuomo, Mayor DeBlasio and the New York State Legislature believe that congestion pricing is the answer. Those who need to drive into Manhattan should not be taxed any more than they already are at the Hudson River crossings or the other crossings that already have tolls. Place tolls on the other bridges that enter Manhattan including the 59th Street Bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge and the Manhattan Bridge. Rethink the bus lanes, bike lanes and parking design in place on so many streets. Many bus drivers don't even utilize the bus lanes because they can't travel fast enough. The construction that has been performed on so many streets to create bike lanes has taken travel lanes away. This has slowed traffic. Bikers must also obey traffic laws. I urge the everyone to go watch how irresponsible so many of the cyclist are. Make parking zones so that delivery trucks do not block travel lanes. Crack down on the fare beaters. And, find a way to raise money for the MTA that does not penalize those that need to drive into Manhattan and have already paid to come into Manhattan. Congestion pricing will result in double taxation. Lastly, how can anyone vote on a plan without knowing the details. All of the details including costs must be known prior to any vote.
7
@MetroNYPhysician Blaming car congestion in Manhattan on everyone aside from cars - nice one!
3
‘That money would, in turn, be used to secure bonds totaling $15 billion for M.T.A. capital projects through 2024.”
So the bill isn’t even approved, let alone the ink being dry, when already the the shift is on from the funds being used to upgrade, maintenance, repair and operation of NYC subways to capital projects. The commuter stuck on an unreliable train in midtown is not going to be helped by a station renovation in some assemblyman’s district in Parkchester or a new waiting room in a Westchester MetroNorth stop. More bait and switch!
4
Exempting all-electric vehicles from the proposed toll would reduce noise and air pollution. So would a sooner rather than later switch of all city buses to electric power.
2
@Alan Dean Foster
'Exempting all-electric vehicles from the proposed toll'
Thus excepting all the rich folk that can afford a 100k Tesla, but charging the poor folk who drive a 2005 Subaru as they cannot afford anything better.
Great idea.
7
@Alan Dean Foster
People are very naïve about electrical power. In the United States, 39% of all electrical power is generated by coal burning plants.
7
@Patrick You are incorrect. Your figures are years old. It is 27% and getting lower with every month that passes. Why do you need to dispel bad data?
EIA forecasts that the share of electricity generation from coal will average 25% in 2019 and 23% in 2020, down from 27% in 2018
3
Classic fuzzy thinking. If the goal is to improve traffic flow, charging money won't do it; getting rid of bus & bike lanes and pedestrian plazas will. If the goal is to reduce car use and emissions, then the tax won't raise enough money to fix the subways, if it works.
If the goal is to just throw another tax on people, then it is grossly unfair to levy it on people who actually LIVE in the "zone" which is the entire lower half of Manhattan, while not imposing it on people in the wealthier upper east and upper west sides or any borough. South of 62nd street is densely residential - unlike London where the zone is not. Why should ONLY those residents be taxed $22/day if they need to use a car? Where are their legislators on this? There MUST be a residential exemption or allowance, or why would anyone ever want to live inside the prison of the "zone".
11
@Aubrey Please. Take a look at how much physical space a person in a car requires versus a person on foot or on transit or on a bike. It's not even close.
15
@Aubrey
My bike takes up roughly 2 ft x 5 ft on the road. Probably less. An SUV takes up 7ft x 12ft. That's about 10 times as much space.
I'm tired of people in cars telling me I'm taking up too much space. Biking in traffic is like navigating a herd of slow-moving, spaced-out hippos who are suddenly, erratically aggressive. Over-sized vehicles which can't fit down the lane or navigate the slightest obstacle clog up traffic, not bicycles.
17
@Aubrey
I really doubt there are that many people living below 62d street who "need" to use a car every day. Given the congestion, I have no idea why anyone living down there would want to use a car every day. I live on the UWS and figure that most of my neighbors who own cars are actually crazy people. As for the idea that Manhattan without a car is a prison, well . . .
7
Being NYC, what happens when millions of New Yorkers find a way to beat the system? These articles describe the what, not the how. From other research, I found the city plans to add surcharges to applicable toll stations and add a network of modified red light cameras and EZ Pass type scanners to key points in the city. I will go out on a limb and forecast that New Yorkers will find ways to beat the system. They will avoid those toll stations, likely clogging up other entry points. They will get EZ pass accounts, but not put up the decals. That way, if the cameras did not catch their plate, not my fault. Some may goes as far as having dirty license plates.
Do taxis, shared services, and commercial traffic stay on one side of 60th street? Will the vehicle get charged each time it crosses that street? Wouldn’t that have an impact to deliveries, taxi availability, etc. Controlling that process will be complex and likely error prone. The other cities cited have a much simpler process based on entrance to the city on major thoroughfares. NYC will break new ground in development of an intracity process.
If NYC knew how to efficiently run a complex, technology dependent system, the MTA would not be in its current shape.
5
I don't live in NYC, never have. However, reading the NY local comments here on the times makes me wonder if the city's leaders ever spend time going over comments sections on local issues here.
7
Who is going to pay for the horrible, criminal corruption and mismanagement of the billions of dollars put into the subway system, and other city coffers, over the last 20 years? The answer is The People have to pay.
Not one person in government, or the MTA and any of these other thiefdoms, will ever pay for their crimes and mismanagement. Just the poor saps who have to use these systems to survive in The Concrete Jungle.
Reason #8734 why I'm not sorry I left my hometown, years ago.
9
Once again this city finds a way to rip people off, just another way to reach into your pocket. Just let me know where the tolls are and when they are in operation, because I promise I will be damned before I drive through them and give this city another dime of my money.
9
@Lonnie I live in lower Manhattan and am very happy your car won't be clogging the streets down here any longer. Thanks!
2
@Vincent Amato Why do you think it's okay to destroy the environment to preserve your special little private commute? There will not be a Manhattan left for you to drive into if the seas continue to rise at the rates your selfish emissions have contributed to...
10
News Flash! The seas are rising, and will not recede for a considerable amount of time. we've already gone past the point of stopping or slowing climate change. According to what's happening with sea levels, a sea wall is a lot more urgent than congestion pricing. Chances are when they realize we need the sea wall to happen, what passes for government here will house the drivers again
1
@Bill News Flash! These things are not mutually exclusive
1
When will new York City residents pay the full cost of using their own subway system? Why are drivers in the metropolitan area the cash cow for subsidizing transit fares? Is it fair that drivers visiting relatives and friends on Long Island have to pay $8.50 each way on the bridges which are the only way to get to the island from the north? 90% of each toll dollar goes to directly to the MTA to prop up the subway and bus systems. Now congestion pricing will add another onerous toll on cars and trucks going to southern Manhattan to prevent a fare increase for subways and buses. Let the real users pay the full fare and stop punishing those of us who have no choice but to use our cars to get from here to there.
7
They also need to change the one way toll on the Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge which adds to the congestion as well. The one way toll is enshrined in federal law thanks to Al D'Amato.
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@sid
True. It’s the only way to get rid of the constant traffic jams from the East River bridges to the Holland Tunnel. Just amazing how many people from New Jersey work in Brooklyn and Queens!
@sid
Maybe we should get rid of the tolls altogether especially when the bonds they were originally supposed to pay for have been long paid off rather than be part of some revenue that just made them go up higher even when it wasn't necessary.
I love the very notion that poor people have all these cars...
I know who drives into the city. It’s the middle class who don’t care to share public transit with actual poor people.
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@SM--many people who drive to NYC are blue collar workers carrying tools which is why they have to drive. And/or these people have to be at work at hours before mass transit is running on a reasonable schedule. Try getting into NYC at 7am from neighborhoods in queens that require a bus to the subway and a full commute over 1 hour, or from nj where we already pay $15 a day to cross the GWB and then have to pay for parking.
All on a workingman's pay. That's who is driving to nyc.
10
@SM I used to work for Verizon downtown. A three shift 24/7 job. My coworkers who lived in Queens had no way to get to work at midnight or get home at midnight on public transportation. This is just a tax on people who need to drive. No one is sightseeing in a car in lower Manhattan.
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A large part of the problem is the MTA. They mismanmage funds, overpay workers and don't have a feasible plan to fix NYCs transportation woes. Chargeing middleclass drivers who use their cars to get to and from work in the city because the cost of hosuing is too expensive in Manhattan is not the answer. I drive from Westchester to Staten Island for work not because I want to--I drive because I must. I pay tolls on the way to work and now you want me to pray tolls both ways? That seems so unfair to me. I've lost the ability to deduct property taxes on my federal returns now I will be required to pay another tax just to make a living. If you want to reduce traffic in Manhattan and raise funds LIMIT THE NUMBER OF TAXIS AND MAKE BIG BUSINESS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE!! NYC was willing to give Amazon hugh tax breaks yet they want to give me a new tax. Wrong, wrong, WRONG! If I opted to use mass transportation I'd have a 5 hour daily commute. I won't mention the overcrowded and dirty conditions on the trains. I wish legislators would think of an out of the box solution instead of forcing the middle class to foot the bill again!!
It is no wonder Manhattan is becoming a boro of either the very rich or the very poor with no middle class. I'm beginning to feel like the Republican tax schemes are at work in NYC--they tax the middle class and let the rich get away scotfree.
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@Rvincent1 Why would you pay the congestion pricing fee? You won't be going through the city to get to Staten Island.
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Past time. Unless you have no other choice, why would anyone drive in Manhattan anyway? Granted I have never lived there, but I have family who do and I never drive when I visit. And my family which lives there rarely drives either unless it is to/from a destination outside of Manhattan. I do understand that if you didn't have two working legs how driving could be the best choice. So perhaps there should be an exemption for people with handicapped plates. But if your legs work, why would drive? With the money this would generate going into the subway system that should just help re-enforce that fact.
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@Still Waiting for a NBA Title--you missed the point. The congestion pricing is not aimed at city residents (although NYC residents should have to pay extra to have their car there) but it is aimed at commuters from the boroughs and nj.
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@Still Waiting for a NBA Title
Would feel better if I felt more confident in NY Penn Station track maintenance.
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Taxis and Ubers already pay congestion pricing so think it’s fair to charge private cars the same they as are less efficient users. But the biggest congestion I see is caused by on-street parking and double parking. You can be on a major avenue which should move well yet up to 2 lanes are used for parking and 2 more are often blocked by double parking. With bus lanes and turning cars, that doesn’t leave much! I don’t understand the logic of allowing on-street parking in congested areas when people in moving vehicles are charged congestion pricing. Side streets even offer free parking!
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@Kathyrn Good point about the double-parking. If the city ticketed for that, we could pay for a subway system made of platinum.
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An other win for the Uber-Rich.
Today's technology could easily scale congestion charges according to the size and age of the car, but never mind, the rich don't want this.
There was a time, where the daily inconveniences were shared more equally between the rich and the poor.
The rich, who buy the politicians with campaign contributions are eroding it.
We already have whisked through TSA lines for the rich that can afford first class tickets, and no TSA for those who can afford private planes.
We don't need more inequality. We really, really don't
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While traffic in the city has certainly gotten worse-- especially since the advent of ride sharing, it seems every other vehicle on the streets has a T&L plate-- there are, as stated in the article, "Many moving parts". Commercial deliveries could be exempted before or after a certain hour to encourage a more even distribution of necessary double parking. Residents of the zone or the elderly could be made eligible to deduct a portion of the cost from their state or city taxes-- now limited from federal deductibillity.
And while we're at it, if we're trying to improve the surface congestion and not just tax it to subsidize mass transit, why not limit developers who close down entire blocks to one lane and clot streets for years at time when building in the city? They could get their buildings built with much less time closing off streets, but that would require holding the wealthy class responsible and not the masses.
But the overarching issue is the inefficiency of the MTA- clearly, a complex, and not a well run organization. One question to be addressed should be how to hold them accountable for the additional funding without penalizing the citizens who use their service.
When people rail against "Big government" what they really mean is "Wasteful and ineffective government"
We can, and should expect them to do better.
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Let's just cut to the chase and toll all the crossings into Manhattan and call it a day. 61st as a northern boundary is ridiculous and discriminatory to those of us who own cars and live downtown inside the zone. I would have to pay $10 to come home from work just to drive two blocks from the FDR. Not the case if I lived on the upper east side or upper west side. As other's have said, this will only effect the workers of the world. The wealthy won't notice.
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Yellow cabs are part of the solution for addressing congestion in New York City and Manhattan in particular, and should be excluded from this tax. Not everyone can climb stairs. It's very unfair.
But the purpose of this MTA-funding tax was never to reduce congestion and make it disappear, since no cars in the city will be synonym of no extra tax money for the MTA. The goal of this tax is to keep congestion, and make cash from it. They don't care about the quality of life of New Yorkers.
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The prices of tolls have been going up and street parking prices were just recently doubled. The state is mismanaging money. My feeling as with their prior promises is that the money made via congestion pricing will still be funneled to something other than what they're saying it will be used for. A big part of Long Island is a fiscal mess. The BQE is in shambles. As a freelance tech repair specialist who lives in the city and a 30-40 min walk from the closest subway, driving is the only way to get around. The local buses don't run reliably and the route is quite convoluted. Using the subway while carrying work gear doesn't also make sense. There aren't enough elevators as most parents with strollers can attest to. Congestion pricing hurts the working class and Mom and Pop type businesses. Due to services like Uber/Lyft, etc. less people are using mass transit and who can blame them.
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The good news is that between Trump and Ocasio-Cortez tax reform and chasing out businesses and now even more taxes, TAXIS that now cost $14 to go ten blocks, we won't need congestion pricing. NO ONE will want to come here.
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I do like to visit Manhattan from NJ to dine, and most times will drive, because the alternative public transportation is awful and unreliable.
Presently driving to Manhattan is a costly endeavor. Add congestion pricing, and that would give me pause as to whether I will continue.
The MTA is a poorly run, money down the rathole organization that will not change with congestion pricing.
7
This is the most regressive tax that could be imposed on our city! The wealthy will not feel it at all, but tens of thousands of working people - people in the trades who lug tools, low income citizens in rent stabilized apartments, handicapped citizens, and everybody who parks their car on the street because they can't afford a garage space will feel this tax very hard.
Adding to this, the fact that people working in trades can no longer deduct the cost of their expenses on federal tax returns makes it doubly harsh. It will have ZERO effect on traffic or mass transit, but will make life much more difficult for the rapidly vanishing middle class in NYC
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@Howie
Is Windham proposing a congestion pricing plan???
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My contractor friend is in favor due to the time he spends stuck in traffic. Anyone who lugs tools into Manhattan can afford it.
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What about bringing back the commuter tax? Why should those who work - but don't live - in NYC be able to use what New Yorkers pay for? Why should they not pay for the police protection afforded us who pay taxes here and they who don't? Why don't they help pay for subways they use?
It was a bonehead move doing away with this particular tax and its return might ease the burden on those of us who pay for what we both use and for which those from out of the city don't pay.
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@Alan Chaprack Agreed. The nerve of ‘suburban lawmakers’ to suggest that some of this revenue goes on the LIRR. The state mooches enough from NYC as it is.
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@Alan Chaprack, they already brought back the commuter tax. Suburbanites in NY State now pay an MTA payroll tax. You can't force the tax on other states.
@Alan Chaprack--what about the many, many commuters who drive from one of the boroughs? I'm still a "city resident". But to get to work sometimes as early as 6:30-7am, carrying tools from flushing, queens (bus to subway) is virtually impossible at that hour as the bus/train is not yet running on a rush our schedule yet. That's who many of your "commuters" are. And so what if they come from NJ or LI? When they come to NYC they shouldn't be protected by NYPD? When you visit the Hamptons or their NJ town for a day/weekend outside the city, aren't you protected by their PD?
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The elderly and disabled folk appear to have ben forgotten in congestion planning. At 80 years of age, living in mid-Manhattan and unable to use MTA, I use taxis/car services to go to doctor appointments - a minimum of 30 trips annually.
The traffic I see is clogged with delivery vans and trucks double parking in traffic lanes bringing a halt to traffic flow.
Please planners - give some monetary relief to the elderly and disabled folk in a congestion plan.
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@Dorothy-perhaps you would be eligible for Access-a-Ride. It's imperfect but it would be free to you, if you qualify.
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@Dorothy And the reason those delivery vans are double-parked? Because the curbs are full of private automobiles we've collectively decided have a right to be stored for free on public streets. Put a premium on that curbside space and you'd find lanes free and clear because trucks could unload at to the curb.
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@Dave C. It’s not very safe to park on the street.
Love it - hope it comes to Chicago.
Where I live in Chicago, the major streets north (Armitage) and south (Dvisioin) of the nearest major street (North) are nice and jammed with awesome restaurants and shops, while North is run down. Armitage and Division are 2 lane roads, North has 4.
Give the cities back to the people. Dissuade cars, encourage biking, walking, and public transportation.
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Congestion pricing is like shooting fish in a barrel. If anyone thinks that charging drivers to enter Manhattan’s business district is going to limit or reduce traffic jams, then I have one of New York City’s bridges to sell you.
New York legislators appear fine with giving billions away with tax subsidies for corporations doing business in the city, while sticking it to everyone else with an unfair tax on drivers.
Corporate welfare contributed to this mess. Congestion pricing is a band-aid solution that will never accomplish the goal of subsidizing the MTA. The only way that is going to happen is to make sure that businesses in New York pay taxes.
17
The MTA is the worst managed entity in NYS. There is no accountability with super inflated salaries for the executives. It took them 8 times the amount of money to build a mile of the Q train compared to building a mile of track in London. If the subways need so much repair why are they spending money on bells and whistles for things that are not detrimental to improving and repairing the system. Why does it take 13 union workers to change one light bulb. With all the mismanagement and theft you could probably cut the $44 billion proposal to spend on the system in half. EASILY. Until you fix this adding more sources of income from more taxes will not fix anything. They will always be short and want more. There is no accountability in NYS. It is pathetic and it will only get worse. All these politicians just keep coming up with new ways to spend money and new ways to tax more things to get the money. All this hurts the regular guy not the wealthy that they love to demonize. Nobody looks at the other end of the equation, cut back spending, improve efficiency and get rid of the fat and fluff!!!!!!
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@Dan
totally agree about the fat and corruption, a scandal.
but that shouldn't k.o. congestion pricing.
the program cannot but decongest manhattan which is a huge benefit to EVERYBODY, from residents like me who are being honked to death, to workers who may save 30 to 50 mins. a week in commuting time (that's worth a lot!) to increased productivity for everyone (that's real $) because they are not stuck in a dysfunctional transport system but working, studying and producing.
it hurts to change but the winners will be cities like stockholm and singapore that have bound their loins a little and been paid back with a well-functioning system
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@Dan: easier to pass new taxes than fight a powerful corrupt union.
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@Dan
This is exactly why there needs to be a better audit of the MTA. Before even giving them something like congestion pricing, we should see where their existing revenues are already going to. By doing so, they wouldn't have the need to keep claiming that they have to hike the fares so constantly. Doesn't anyone else find it strange how they keep making so much in revenues yet they continue to act as if they are broke? What is up with that?
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Sounds okay IF we get residential parking permits to prevent squatters from Bergen County parking for free in our neighborhoods and hopping on the subway.
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@Scott This happens in Queens, too. Drivers from Nassau park as far west as Astoria to hop on the subway.
3
What portion of the cars in Manhattan come from outside - like Long Island, upstate, the outer boroughs, New Jersey? Is there subway or train (or bus) service from those locations? If not, there needs to be. And there needs to be parking in easy walking distance to subway and train stops. Not an easy fix, not any of it. Too many moving parts. We need creative and analytical planning. And money, which is in short supply because of low taxes on high and superhigh earnings.
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@Brian too many and people driving alone in their cars with parking subsidized by their employer for executives. And there are subway and bus service into Manhattan from all the above. Long Island Railroad stations almost all have parking.(but not enough).
But Dan is right if the City transit was more efficient alot of this would be less expensive
6
This has nothing to do with congestion. This is a tax to repair the subway system.
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@Never Trumpe ? It's both.
Any serious effort to ease congestion has to start with ending double parking. Delivery drivers seem to think they have a right to stop and park anywhere they want. Amazon, eBay and others have made the problem much worse.
19
This should keep out the riff-raff and let the limousines drive express to their destinations.
12
We will now surely hear from all the same naysayers who said a bike share program could never work in NYC. It is now the most successful in the world by many measures.
They were wrong then and will be proven wrong again on congestion pricing.
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The citi bike program is a seasonal hobby of air Bnb tourists and a few others . The bike lanes serve mainly to get food deliveries on time. Bike riding in the city is dangerous
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@Bill Lombard Sorry, you're incorrect. Over 70% of citibike users are annual subscribers, so not tourists. Also, in the dead of winter, there is still over 55% of the peak summer users riding Citibike. Would you rather delivery-people use cars? walk?
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@Bill Lombard that is a preposterous assumption. the majority of my coworkers under 30 use citibike to get to work each day. they flinch at the thought of riding the subway. the citibike docks in my neighborhood are all empty by 8:30am.
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The only drawback I see is pointing out the cities that have successfully implemented such plans. All of those cities use the metric system, and provide health insurance to their citizens, two things we as Americans know is impossible to do.
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If the alternative is for subway riders to pay 30% more in fares, the implication is that the price they currently pay is not sufficient to cover the cost of the service provided them. They must not be required to pay that, so therefore the rest of us should pay it for them.
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@Kurt Spears The fares only cover about 75% of the cost of operations now. It is by far the highest percentage of any mass transit in the world. All are subsidized more as a percentage. If there were no mass transit NY would be unlivable.
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@Kurt Spears what would NYC real estate be worth without a functioning subway? Why should janitors and cooks etc subsidize the owners of office towers.
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@nycpat With gas, car payments, insurance, maintenance, and parking, is driving to work really cheaper than a subway for janitors and cooks? Why should janitors and cooks be allowed to destroy the environment?
3
This is a great idea! Finally, the great unwashed masses will be pulled out of the way of the one-percenters. No longer will the wealthy be impeded by the proletariat who are on their way to their humble jobs and the rich can speed their way to their penthouses without delay. Sales of Mercedes should soar in Manhattan. Let them eat Subway.
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@Bob in Pennsyltucky Let the unwashed masses continue to destroy the environment because they have "humble" jobs. Good call Bob!
4
Yeah. The poor will have no way to get to Manhattan.
Not since medieval landowners charged tolls for passage on "their" land have we seen an arbitrary fee imposed on the populace for passage from one section of land to another. The conversion of Manhattan into a gated community, a zona rosa, a preserve of the one percent, initiated by billionaire mayor Michael Bloomberg, has been seamlessly taken up as a cause by a mayor who wants us to believe that he is a progressive and a governor whose eyes have been on the White House since he was a child. The campaign against New Yorkers who drive from their homes in the outer boroughs into Manhattan is unrelenting. The city's thoroughfares have been converted into obstacle courses of unused bicycle lanes and floating "islands" to accommodate the few cars that might find parking while the bike lanes and bicycle parking for unused rental bikes and metered parking that costs over $10 for 2 hours of time add to the Kafkaesque experience of driving in Manhattan. Changes supposedly designed to create safer, more navigable streets have contributed to in fact making streets less safe and more congested. The pieties which accompany these changes egregiously portray a Queens resident with a car as backward and unconcerned about a safe, healthy and attractive city. The truth is that Manhattan is being given over to real estate interests seeking to create a suitable preserve for a clientele who does not blink at buying an apartment that costs tens of millions of dollars.
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@Vincent Amato Or you could look all the way back to 2003, when London introduced a congestion fee. Billions of pounds raised from that fee have been reinvested into the city's public transport network. And of course, the historical parallel to medieval landowners is so much piffle, since no one is charging anyone anything to walk or bike across London.
It's odd that a rational pricing scheme (i.e. one that shift costs from non-users to users) attracts such overwrought handwringing from a coddled segment of the population. Finally, a commenter writing from Ozone Park or College Point might gain a little more rhetorical traction than someone posting from the neighborhood with the largest public transit hub in Queens.
16
@John Buckholz Congestion pricing is not a fee on movement. It's a fee on cars. Big difference. And it's not arbitrary. Cars cause a lot of problems. They pollute the air, kill people, and take up huge amounts of scarce urban space in the form of parking. That space could be used to actually allow movement of people- in the form of widened sidewalks and bike lanes.
Driving a powerful motor vehicle wherever you like is not an inherent right, much as some people think of it that way.
28
@Vincent Amato I agree with all that you said, except the first sentence about no tolls since medieval times. London instituted congestion pricing about 6 years ago, maybe longer ago, and it helps in relieving congestion, but they still have congestion in some areas.
3
Great first step. Get it done.
Next: Remove on-street parking (or charge a lot more for it), widen sidewalks, expand (and actually protect) bike lanes, enforce clear bus lanes, add more speeding/red light cameras, upgrade subway signals, maybe re-purpose some streets to be parks (BQE?), etc.
This city can and should be just as livable, pedestrian-friendly, and accessible as any of the cities that top those metrics—Zurich, Copenhagen, Vienna, etc.—especially if it wants to maintain its position as the economic capital of the world while we move deeper into the twenty-first century.
Shifting away from America's dangerous and inefficient car culture will be integral in making that happen. New York City can't get stuck in the past.
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@AGuyInBrooklyn
I see Streetsblog has checked in. FYI Copenhagen has free street parking outside the central business district, a lot like Manhattan. If you don't believe me go to Google street view, there are parked cars all over the place. Cities across the U.S. with the same space challenges as NYC offer residential parking permits and it works very well.
11
@Scott
Don't need to check. Parking outside of the CBD makes plenty of sense—there is greater sprawl, fewer public transit options, less foot traffic, etc. People need cars there.
I'm talking about inside the CBD where the vast majority of people don't have or need cars.
4
@AGuyInBrooklyn
So you can have a car, but the guy who lives in Alphabet City the last forty years, but works in the outer boroughs, has to find a new way to get to work. How nice of you. I think that half of the guys in Brooklyn who are so obsessed with physical space and whatnot ought to go back to the Ohio suburbs they came from where there is plenty of it.
7
Congestion pricing is essential not just for revenue, but to ease traffic flow and lessen air pollution. Stop idling engines pouring filthy exhaust into our air.
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@an observer
All true. Another less-mentioned, but significant benefit is decreased noise pollution.
How it became even remotely acceptable for drivers to blare their horns repeatedly at each other—especially at night—for reasons that have nothing to do with impending danger is beyond me.
Imagine how ridiculous and inappropriate it would be if people walking on sidewalks bleated like goats at each other because somebody wasn't crossing the street fast enough.
Yet if you put a person inside a car, it's totally fine...
39
@AGuyInBrooklyn Ah, yes noise pollution, horns beeping, blaring out driver's impatience, even when a pedestrian is crossing the street. Yeah, make that elderly person move, he is not moving fast enough! This doesn't happen in London; you won't hear a horn beep unless in emergency, and all traffic stops the second a pedestrian steps into a crosswalk. Drivers actually stop for red lights in London.
4
@an observer: so only rich people can drive, and idle in traffic, in their limos and sports cars and ubers.
his past Sunday evening, I was in a taxi where I received a message on that annoying little television that I was being charged an extra $2.50 for congestion pricing. That would indicate congestion pricing is already in effect in New York City. I have been encountering that little message since the beginning of 2019. I must have missed the blip of an announcement.
In this instance the interesting part was that there was absolutely no traffic -- no congestion at all.
Who exactly decides when or where congestion pricing comes into effect and when are they going to tell us? I live in Brooklyn. I must go through lower Manhattan to get home by cab. I would take the subway, but the trains are extraordinarily untrustworthy at any time, but particularly after 10 pm, when the Theaters close. I have little faith that the MTA can improve its operations -- even with an annual influx of one billion dollars -- and improvements sure aren't happening now.
I am not against congestion pricing per se, but I want to know precisely where it takes effect and exactly who decides. Perhaps a better solution would be to charge, say $1.50 on every taxi fare. That will amortize the expense among all New Yorkers and bypass a plan that appears utterly arbitrary in its administration.
9
@ClayB There was a fee added to taxis and Uber in January.
7
@ClayB That is a separate congestion tax for all hired cars, it went into affect in January. The fee applies to any rides south of 96 street in Manhattan. The fee (nor the fee referenced in this article) is not based on actual congestion/traffic.
3