Is there a building central hot water heating system supplemented by point of use tank less units and/or water tank in each apartment? With water heater tanks there will still be a delay until the cold pipe water runs out and hot water flows. Four minutes is an unacceptably long time to wait. An electric tank less unit in apt. will deliver instant hot water. That issue must first be addressed.
One of the points that I'd like to point out is that the management company is doing nothing. There are many complacent and incompetent managing agents in Manhattan who manage both condos and coops. Many owners whether condo owners or coop owners feel powerless. This culture must change. These managing agents know nothing about service; they're confused about who they work for and how they get paid and often are not very knowledgeable. I would also like to point out there are many terrific and amazing managing agents, but very far and few between.
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Builder appointed board members are replaced by homeowners elected members based on a percentage of apartments sold.I can not state this more strongly; be extremely careful as whom you elect to represent you on the board.Absolutely NO POLITICIANS or someone with political ambitions.Also someone with some building engineering experience on the board is invaluable.As far as the hot water problem, is there a central hot water source or each individual unit has a heater.Once that is established it should be a simple fix unless it is a design issue
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The how water system needs to be checked out by a professional not chosen by the current management.
ORGANIZE and start the process of having a condo board independent of the builder. Warranties will run out soon so you need to get going.
Enjoy meeting the neighbors!
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One of the first things I do when apartment hunting is to check the how long it takes to get hot water.
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@Reader In Wash, DC That test will not reliably show a problem. These types of problems are often sporadic, depending how recently an apartment in your line (vertical stack) has used hot water.
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In a condo, as well as a coop, management is just what it says. They manage the building, for a fee. They do not own or pay or it.
At the beginning, the developers often choose themselves as the managing agent, charging outrageous fees. Harry Helmsley was famous for this.
Once the owners control the board, they need to vote for a responsible board, which will appoint responsive management. If management fails, replace them.
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The problem, excellently summarized by Ms. Kaysen, is a consequence of the growing congestion, particularly in big cities, where people cannot afford their own, stand-alone abode. There is little that a disappointed condo-buyer can do, short of ensnarling oneself in lengthy and expensive legal proceedings. Perhaps the best is to follow the old saying, "Check before you bind youself".
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@Tuvw Xyz That's hardly new in New York, where people have been living that way for 150 years.
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@Tuvw Xyz
Whatever the problem, communicate in writing and if possible (probably not) accept only written responses. If only oral responses are offered, confirm in writing your understanding of that response. When your counterparty understands that there's an ongoing written record of the problem and how it is being handled, he is much more likely to do the right thing.
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@Tuvw Xyz This real estate column deals with NY issues. Why the animosity? Many who live in NY understand and accept the trade-offs.
In commercial applications a loop is used with a recirculation pump to keep hot water available instantly at every spigot. Time is money. In residential applications I suspect that is almost never done to save the cost of the initial plumbing.
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@Roger Brehm A large residential building is considered commercial construction and therefor does indeed have the same code requirement. Per code, hot water should be at the fixture in 10-15 seconds, not minutes. This is not about saving time, but saving water, as the code assumes you would just run the water without using it until it gets hot, thus wasting water.
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Coops are covered mainly by the RPAPL; the Condo Act therein is brief so common law applies. Boards have a fiduciary duty to owners while management companies may become aiders and abettors. The business judgment rule applies. Under fraud in the factum and equitable estoppel, the statute of limitations is tolled if there is a hidden defect. Fighting a board and management co. is difficult since you do not know neighbors or owners. And when you complain, you receive threatening letters from the board's (building's) lawyer who ignores the law and breaches the code of ethics. The claim is that the by-laws rule but they don't. A problem is the use of cheap materials: connectors, end-of-stone tiles, marble, and granite (Trump's construction technique which is one reason he went into licensing). In my case, the law was clear. The board permitted its lawyers to pad their bills for two years before agreeing to spend a few thousand to correct the planned omission. The maintenance went up to pay for the lawyers and the piece. So it is a balancing act where you will be pushed off the edge unless you are a lawyer with time.
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Many new buildings are going up in a speedy manner without unionized workers who are trained. Plumbing problems are going toe a huge issues in the future. This is the tip of the iceberg as at least 40 projects are occurring right now in the five boroughs.
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Installing a tankless water heater, either electric or vented gas, would best solve the problem. This would provide immediate hot water without the waste associated with bringing up lukewarm water from the building's heater, which is likely located many floors below. The tankless unit takes up very little space too.
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@GAEL GIBNEY With the typical circulation hot water system, essentially three sets of pipes are need---cold, hot supply, and hot return. With a local heater system, only a single cold water line is needed. There is much savings in plumbing and the cost of heating the water can be passed more easily onto the tenant.
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@GAEL GIBNEY
Why would you pay for a tankless heater when you just bought a new apartment with central boilers?
Tankless heaters aren't exactly a fix all anyway. Try using one. I wouldn't want the contraption anywhere near a my old New York apartment. The only thing worse would be the neighbor upstairs installing one.
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@Andy Installing a tankless water heater is a reasonable solution, and it sure beats a protracted struggle with a disinterested board and getting involved with lawsuits. Not sure what your objection to the "contraption" is, but they do the job. Plus, if you plumb them in to the hot water line the water will already be somewhat pre-heated.
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Since this might be the start of construction related problems, I agree with the suggestion to organize as Condo owners and hire a lawyer who specializes in the bigger picture issue: construction issues in new building. The sponsor (and the Management Company who is really working for it) can be obstructive and will run out the clock on the builder's warranties. That is why time and an attorney are of the essence.
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another thing to check esp in new construction, were the faucets installed with temperature limiting switches set to lowest. if so thats an easy fix, you can put it on a higher setting and voila hot water. (meaning the building system has hot water but the faucet temperature limit keeps it out.) had the same problem when i reno'd a home bathroom and the plumber didn't ask but set the faucet to the lowest limit. again, simple fix (five minutes and an allen key.) look up your faucet model and get the installation instructions online.
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@Aubrey. Excellent advice. Also, I don’t know if apts in NYC have hot water heaters but if they do, increase the thermostat on the hot water heater. The water heater has a door on it that can be unscrewed off which holds the t-stat. Water heaters when installed by a plumber are set at the manufacturers recommended setting to avoid someone being burned. But you can adjust the thermostat.
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@Debe
I would recommend against turning up the temperature on your water heater. I had to use this fix once before and we were really just masking the underlying problem. We didn't have a big enough tank for the number of people using the shower.
With 3 months left on the lease, we just jacked the temp and left. As an owner though, I wouldn't attempt this approach. Your utility bill is going to sky rocket if you don't wear out the unit entirely. Try insulating the tank first. With all things gas, be careful. If that fails, someone installed the wrong appliance for the apartment's needs.
Of course, we're talking about New York so they probably don't have individual water heaters anyway.
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@Aubrey
Occam's razor.
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In buildings with a central hot water system, the plumbing is usually in the form of a loop. The water is heated in the boiler room, then sent around by a pump. It then returns to the boiler room to have additional hot water added to it. In properly designed buildings, there is a return pipe at the top of each riser. You might ask to have the circulation pump checked to see if it is functioning. Hot water that is maintained at too low a temperature can breed Legionaires Disease bacteria. NYC requires a 120 F minimum. Temperatures much above this can be a scalding hazard.
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@Davidexc excellent answer, thank you.
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It is important to lodge all complaints within the first year the building is open. I moved into a building where they ignored complaints because the Board was controlled by the sponsor. We had problems with tiles falling off the bathroom walls, roof leaks, countertop seaming problems, and minor plumbing issues.
It turned out that some of the bathrooms were tiled over sheetrock rather that waterproof boards.
Also they put in a high tech roof that failed everywhere it was installed throughout new buildings in the neigbhorhood. The roofing company replaced the roof once, but that did not stop the problems. We had another roof installed, at our own cost, and that failed. We had a 3rd roof installed, at out own cost, using a traditional roof. That finally worked.
Where they had a corner installation of countertops, they did not put supports in to hold up the countertops. The seams opened and the corners caved in.
What was worse is that we had an electrical fire from the circuit breakers in one of the apartments a few years after the building opened. It turned out that they installed circuit breakers that were banned by NYC due to potential fires. Only 1 apartment had the legal circuit breakers.
The owners were not organized when the building first opened. By the time we did get organized, a lot of the builder's warranties were expired.
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@JEJ
Sounds like a nightmare. Hope your problems are resolved over time. Would a home inspection have uncovered some problems?
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@Marge Flanagan I had a home inspection done before I bought the apartment. The inspector pointed out the new hi-tech roof as a potential problem because it hadn't been tested yet. He also pointed out problems with the waterproofing on the facade. He said the builder's reputation was "better than average".
He could not see the sheet rock in the bathrooms, the corner countertops, and the faulty circuit breakers. He would have had to tear up everything that was covered over. All these hidden defects were inspected ny the building's department during construction. We suspected that they did certain apartments correctly during the inspection.
Everything was fixed within 5 years.
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