They allow AR 15s. Why??!!!
4
Their gun laws are abominable. They brought it on themselves. Allowing weapons of war in civilian hands! Ridiculous. Such irony- Muslims fleeing violence only to land in a country with such permissive laws.
3
There is one big advantage in military style weapons such as the AR-15 being available for sale in New Zealand. By purchasing this weapon, the fantasists with dreams of homicide have identified themselves.
Pete Breidahl, a hunting guide and former soldier, has some harsh words about the Bruce Rifle Club where this terrorist prepared himself to kill men, women and children. He described members dressing up in camouflage clothing with military webbing and insignia for a rifle range shoot, serious concerns about the mental stability of some of the members, and their homicidal fantasies. "For at least half the club it will be home to their mum's basement and onto the internet for a night of heroic talk in gun forums."
A real hunter uses a hunting rifle. An AR-15 owner is a clown with a Rambo self-image. In New Zealand, their military styled weapon should be confiscated without recompense and all of them should be subject to increased scrutiny.
11
It is difficult to believe that New Zealand, which is generally progressive on most policy issues, has such relatively lax gun laws.
3
Because nothing can be done to stop this kind of terrorism but the government needs to show they're doing something, they will go after guns. This response will earn the leaders a praise from many people.
1
Exactly
2
The contrast between Trump and Adern could not be more pronounced than how they have reacted to these events. She is also humble and refuses to live in the Prime Minister's residence. She still lives in the small 3 bedroom house on a 1/4 acre block she bought with her husband before becoming PM. Her husband is a Stay At Home dad who is renovating the home whilst she is leading the nation.
7
I strongly believe that stricter gun laws will never stop violence. Mankind has always resorted to violence to get their way and take what they coveted. Restricting law abiding citizens has never and will never stop bad people from carrying out acts of violence especially since they live outside of the law. A gun is just a tool just like a hammer or a screwdriver that sits motionless in the tool box until the carpenter or mechanic picks it up and puts it into use.
2
The difference between the US and the rest of the world about this is very simple. In the US there is no US. Our country is populated by misanthropes from various ethnic groups who immigrated here to escape religious or economic persecution. Once here they never learned to mix and blend into a broader culture. There is no unifying element. They arrived here to be exploited by sweatshops and other forms of corporate abuse. They continued to have grievances. The only thing that unites Americans is war -- short of that our society is characterized by hyper competitive individualism, social suspicion, religious extremism, and ruthless greed.
America from its inception has been anti labor and flourished only with some form of slave labor first domestically in the ante bellum South and more recently in Third World sweatshops serving as proxies for Wall Street owners.
America is a very sick and dysfunctional society, and we here can only pray that the rest of the world will throw off the shackles of Hollywood induced stupor and mass media infatuation to slay the beast that smothers the spirit of the world.
Amen.
12
I've been trying to say this for years and haven't come close articulating in such s clear manner your cogent observations. We are a culture of slavery and violence.
9
NZ, Horrible tragedy and we feel for you. For all those who followed sports teams from NZ, we know that your sporting ambassadors are some of the nicest and most humble people going around in sports. I know this hurts for all of you as a nation.
Here is one thing you could do : Keep out the news media owned by the Murdoch empire. The whole Murdoch branding is based on the creation of a populist segment that hates diversity, government, articulate leadership and such in the hope that they become a captive audience to the network.
In the US, we have fallen prey to the likes of Fox News. It gave us a fellow called Trump who most of us have been trying to shake off since day 1 of his presidency. Britain fell prey to the tabloids and the Brexit brainwash. In India, their networks aim to create divide among the nations different religious groups. There is nothing that the Murdoch empire will not do in order to make a fast buck.
I know that imposing restrictions on the media is likely to be fraught with complications. But we have to start somewhere. Just say No to Murdoch.
4
A couple of things. The US looks like a helpless giant by comparison with New Zealand, where the Prime Minister says she plans to announce legislation within ten days.
Also, Brett Cleveland, the AR-15 owner, did not sound like his uncompromising counterparts in the United States. At this stage, at least, it looks as if people like him are prepared to be part of a solution. (Note that I didn't write THE solution; sensible gun legislation is but one way to deal with shootings and terrorism.)
20:50 EDT, 3/18
3
I don’t know what could have been done. But I know what we can at the minimum. I moan. I am hurt. Tears swell as I write this. And I ask: Whare are all those “Je Suis Charlie” people?
2
it could do an "australian" and ban all guns. easy!!!
2
That assertion is incorrect. Australia has stricter gun control laws than the US, but guns and gun clubs are still permitted.
1
I read through all of the gun laws in the different countries. I’m happy to say that our NJ state laws are among the best and rival all the other countries whose laws are considered stringent . We have a waiting period of I think 30 days and you have to take a firearms training course before being allowed to purchase a gun which has to be registered. I feel very safe here knowing that people aren’t walking around with guns on their person’s or purses .
I feel for the innocent victims . I also feel guilty that out President is feeding these White Supremacists around the globe . What a national and international disgrace our president is .
4
I strongly believe that lawmakers and the general public in New Zealand will have a commonsense approach on how to deal with this horrific event. New Zealanders will likely create laws to ban assault rifles like the infamous AR15. Clearly these weapons of mass destruction do not belong in the hands of terrorists in New Zealand, the USA or anywhere else.
30
@RB. If there is a silver lining in all the mass murders in the US it will be to save lives in other parts of the world because we all can see what a horror America and its gun-soaked culture is all about.
1
From here in the USA, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's behavior throughout this ghastly situation appears to have been exemplary. I am envious, because we don't have such a leader in our country, one who responds compassionately, genuinely and responsibly to tragedy.
14
Apart from disconnecting from the internet so that everyone is no longer guaranteed international fame and consequent media-fostered cultural power simply by slaughtering people, there is likely nothing New Zealand could have done.
5
Here's what New Zealand and all other countries should do differently: Large numbers of people (otherwise known as "groups") from foreign countries who want to immigrate to other countries should be dispersed through said country and not be allowed to aggregate in one small section of the country as a group. A concerted effort to assimilate is hyperimportant. What we're seeing now throughout the world are immigrants that pool together, use a country's resources, and do not assimilate to their new country.
Individuals are the key to success and harmony. Groups of people that let you know you're not one of them create resentment, not sometimes, always. Eventually what you get are disasters like we saw in New Zealand. Ending the the group mindset will create successful and peaceful immigration.
6
@Mark, what's wrong with you? Forcing people to be alone? Why don't you think of being more inclusive, more friendly, in order to mingle these people? My country is far from perfect, but one thing that people say about Brazil is how people are friendly to foreigners that come here. It is very rare to see an ethnic neighborhood that does not mingle in the 2nd generation. Do you want to end the group mindset? I know where to start. Do you?
10
@Mark Christchurch is the third biggest city. Disperse? Like Little Italy? Your comment is a kind of indirect - I believe unintentional- victim blaming. Also you are assuming that all Muslims are the same ethnic group. Among the victims were Bangla Deshis, Indians, Pakistanis, Fijians, Indonesians Jordanians and many others. Different languages, food, fiestas, music. There are a billion Moslems all over the world What are proposing that Italian, Irish, Spanish, English Catholics should not go to mass in a Catholic cathedral. The disaster was not caused by people of different cultures but the same religion not dispersing but by one Australian with weapons. I a sure if you had thought through your position longer you would agree with me. You could not have a St Patricks day party without a bunch of Irish people gathering. What a loss that would be. Peace to you
10
Mark. Given the perpetrator is a white Australian does your strategy of dispersing migrant groups apply to white Australians?
4
Like all my fellow New Zealanders, I am deeply shocked and depressed by this catastrophic event. Our hearts and prayers go out to all those affected by this senseless tragedy, and the families of the victims are foremost in our minds. Yet there is another victim which deserves mentioning. New Zealand itself has been targeted by this evil madman. This lunatic selected NZ because, to paraphrase his words, it is peaceful and at the end of the earth in order to say to the world - nowhere is safe. In other words, this tragedy did not occur because NZ has a culture that allows the cancer of extremism to exist. On the contrary, it occurred because it is safe, welcoming and inclusive.
Perhaps for the first time in modern times our collective soul has been sorely bruised and we are struggling to deal with it. But I, too, share the confidence of my country-peoples that we will quickly eradicate this evil virus by drawing upon the exact same strengths that were mis-interpreted as weakness.
Kia kaha Aotearoa!
65
@Matt Well said. Add to that he choose New Zealand because he could not have got the guns in Australia. He is not a madman he carefully coldly and cowardly choose New Zealand because he could get the guns and the beautiful peaceful country it is. I was visiting Christchurch in December 2011 when they had two earthquakes (enough to make me sit down or I would have fallen down) next day in supermarket the girl said "well they were not as bad a big one". When I said I was not here then she asked me I arrived and when I said a couple of days ago she started to cry she was crying because people had come to their city again and this had happened to us. That memory still brings tears to my eyes because everywhere you went and people would be talking about the latest quake I stopped telling people I was a visitor as here were there wonderful kind people who had been thru hell and they were more concerned about me who was going to get back on a plane and go back to Perth in a week or so. Kia Kaha Christchurch.
3
You can get guns anywhere
Thank you, Emily Steel! I did not know that Australians and New Zealanders had different accents! Christchurch Strong!!!
3
The anguish in these young peoples faces says a lot about their country.
4
@Mir. It has stunned everyone. Everyone. Here at work you can hear a pin drop. Americans are used to it, but the rest of the world sees these things as the horror and perversion of humanity that they are. It's particularly hard for the young people since they aren't quite so hardened. No one should have to experience this. But we will do something about it, and you can bet young New Zealanders will be well-motivated.
6
I am only one of thousands of people who continue to ask these questions :
1) Why does ANYONE outside of the military need an automatic or semiautomatic weapon?
2) What possible purpose could such a weapon serve in non-military situations except to mow down a large number of people quickly? (Following up on one of the quotes in the article, absolutely NO self-respecting hunter would use such a weapon to hunt animals.)
I personally have never heard anyone even attempt to answer these questions. The only response these questions seem to elicit is a tirade about slippery slopes and the danger to the second amendment of removing any single type of weapon. As if citizens were too stupid to distinguish between hunting weapons and weapons of mass destruction.
A very large number of people are still waiting for - and still needing - real answers to these questions, not just ideological rants.
22
@VPM
This is meant as a legit answer to your questions and not a rant. I’m not going to give you my thoughts on your question.
The AR15/AR10 style rifles are probably the most popular sporting and hunting rifles in the US right now. Because these rifles come in almost every caliber imaginable they are used in the following ways.
For hunting:
- varmint
- feral pigs
- deer
- elk
- pretty much anything in States that allow hunting with a Semi Auto. Yes NY allows hunting with a featureless AR15
Compiteion:
- Precision Rifle Series
- National Service Matches
- IDPA 3 gun competition
- USPSA matches
And CMP National Service Rifle Matches.
Now the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) is a U.S. government-chartered program that promotes firearm safety training and rifle practice for all qualified U.S. citizens with special emphasis on youth. (Per wikipidea)
It’s a taxpayer subsidized program and has been around for a long time.
2
This question has been answered many times but perhaps we need to answer again. Firearms are also used for sporting, not just hunting. Competitive shooting is a sport, and semi automatics are used in the olympics. Nothing wrong with keeping them difficult to obtain but this nonsense about hunting and no need for semi-autos because hunters don’t use them (which isn’t entirely correct) needs to end.
1
What it could’ve done differently is not put down a white supremacist settler colony in Asia. Ditto for Australia. Fascinating and bitterly ironic to hear whites talk of being “invaded” and white “genocide”. The exact tools of their trade
3
GLW, where does Asia come into this? Politely suggest you have a good look at a world map.
1
Nothing.... let immigrants vote with their feet.
1
Do you notice a difference in the article to the comments here about it?
American gun owners: you want to take away all my guns! The government will never take my God given right to own a semi automatic assault rifle! I'll never give up, never!
NZ gun owners: we need to talk. Let's find a way to work together to make the place safer whilst still respecting people. We support dialogue and positive change 100%.
That difference speaks volumes.
21
@Flossy. Though I’ve also heard from a friend in Christchurch that some panic buying of guns ahead of a ban is happening too. So it’s not black and white.
3
I have bad news for everyone who is soul-searching and wondering aloud what he "could have done differently" to stop a madman from acting in a murderous way: there's nothing you could have done. You can't stop random acts of violence. Our ancestors from 500,000 years ago, just out of the trees, knew this. Stop random acts of violence because we fly through the air in planes and upload photos of our meals on Instagram? How naive.
6
New Zealand 1-Pass a background check that considers criminal, medical, mental health and domestic violence records. 2-Provide character references. 3-Authorities interview or advise, in person, your partner or next of kin. 4-Pass a home security inspection that checks for proper firearm storage. 5-Take a gun safety course. 6-Wait for approval for a firearms license, which could take weeks or months. 7-Buy a gun.
United States 1-Pass an instant background check that considers criminal convictions, domestic violence and immigration status. 2-Buy a gun.
New Zealand's gun law sounds sensible. Compare their laws to the United States' and ours sound insane. In the U.S. if you're so anxious to buy a gun that you can't wait a reasonable amount of time, then you're probably up to no good.
8
Adopt laws which allow their citizens to carry guns for self defense! Keep in mind that the killer in New Zealand was stopped by a man with a gun.
1
He was stopped by his car being rammed into the sidewalk by police. What are you talking about?!
15
@Elisa when he tried to attack another mosque a man with a shotgun shot at him and he fled. The cops got him later.
1
@Mcrognale Thanks for suggesting we adopt the policy of your country which accepts frequent mass murders, but we'll think for ourselves on this one.
11
A remarkable country. The world can learn a lot from its example.
8
I agree with Ardern that gun laws in NZ should be examined and sensible changes made where applicable.
However, as an Australian, I believe we have to share some of the blame. We bred this loathsome human. The Morrison government needs to support NZ by examining how and why Tarrant was radicalised.
Tech companies may also need to contribute given the propensity of terrorists to congregate online – and often in plain sight. There are some deeply disturbing pockets of white supremacy online and they are very easy to find.
A multi-pronged approach seems to be the best solution to me.
10
@Elisa
Hear hear Elisa, from the Riverina.
3
no guns for any purpose whatsoever
6
As despairing as I am of the New Zealand obscenity as I am I only have one question to ask. How many men women and children will be murdered by the new Brazilian government before American Evangelicals are put on the Southern Poverty Law Center's list of hate groups?
8
Gun is not the major problem, metal sickness is the most important problem. Lets hope this is the first and also the last gun killings in New Zealand, the most peace loving and beautiful country in the world. Leaders from all countries should find a solution to cure the mental sickness.
2
Every country has its mentally ill. And they trend less violent than the non-mentally ill.
Only one first world country has a 2nd Amendment. And it suffers most of the mass shootings.
7
@Mclean4
The guns were definitely the problem. Hate and ideology were also the problem.
You can't assume every terrorist is criminally insane - evil - yes, crazy - no.
3
Apart from mathematics, everything has exceptions: biology, physics, sociology, etc. Where there's a rule, there are exceptions. My point is about a very good thing that need exceptions: free speech.
Are you looking for your next local Brenton Tarrant being breed and nursed? Look no more: 8chan, Stormfront, etc. These are the internet playgrounds where psychopaths find a home to socialize and be accepted. They can then celebrate, scheme and refine the maximum form of vile output each other break.
It is not relationships or law enforcement that keeps them from bursting in rampage - weirdly enough is playing the latest FPS game what they will miss. In that sense Brenton Tarrant is both their outer hero and inner sucker for the ultimate sacrifice.
This is the exception to free speech - where the line must be drawn. It does not avoid the existence of fringe but avoids fringe having a safe space to grow, fell normalized and project itself mainstream.
5
Here's a simple but I suppose impossible answer: ban guns. However it's the only answer, IMHO.
3
Did someone he meet in Turkey fund him? With no apparent job how did he fund months of rent, food, gun and ammo purchases? The speed with which his manifesto and video spread also indicates others may have been involved. It was much too coordinated.
1
@northeastsoccermum Kia ora from New Zealand. Mr Tarrant had funds from cryptocurrency investments, according to news reports. Conspiracy-type speculation really isn't helpful at this time. Peace.
1
For the many people who say that the people PRAYING at the mosque should have been carrying guns to stop the shooter, a fact-check: In 2014, according to FBI data, nearly eight times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime. In one survey, nearly 1 percent of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at these claims found that more than halfinvolved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument. A study in Philadelphia found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater (Mother Jones).
5
New Zealand is fortunate to have a government that is determined to face its gun crisis and enact laws to limit access to guns. We've become the most backward county among developed nations of the world.
10
@farhorizons
Wrong. Some of the most rained and heavily armed nations also have the lowest violence and death rate, Switzerland,, Norway. You may just as well ban all blue guns or pink guns. The specifics have little to do with the use of an auto,, Britain. a truck bomb, US, knife attacks, Japan, airplane, US.
If everyone is heavily trained in the use of firearms,, murder rates go down,, is implied by several countries.
How about we remove the motivation for mass murder? Publicity. Make them invisible, forever. No name, no reasons why, no affliations,, no family,,, erase them. No publicity. The attacks will slow and stop,,, if we remove the lure of being famous.
4
This might have something to do with the US constitution being a two centuries old document utterly sacralised
by the American people. Hence, US politics and federal jurisprudence seems to be dedicated at keeping the mindset of the framers alive, which I think to be grossly unsuited to modern times. So an amendment about the right of individual states to maintain armed militias dedicated to their own defense ends up being an individual right at owning AR-15s when the US has a federal army and police protecting all 50 states.
3
While your diagnostic regarding how these acts should not be publicized is right (theoreticaly at least) I am a bit tired if seeing the "Swiss example" being used by people which do not have neither correct informations nor knowledge of the context there.
In short, trained army recruits can ask, and provided the correct training record normaly obtain to keep their army weapon at home but NO ammo.
For a carry permit for any sort of weapon you must manage to prove that it is an absolute necessity for you.
Under normal circumstances shooting outside ranges or officially organized events is prohibited.
Automatic weapons, amongst other, are banned.
Laws and controls are strict generally speaking and there is absolutely no gun fetish.
Also worth mentioning is the generally good social and healthcare system providing both structures and care for people with less than ideal mental health.
There would be a lot of other contextual points to mention but you get the idea. This is both a healthy environment and at the same time it is very strictly regulated too.
7
After NZ makes careful study of the facts, they will come to the only logical conclusion.
1) Everyone needs a gun
2) Post armed guards at schools
3) Elect a Prime Minister who will "rush into the crime scene to take out the shooter"
10
Clearly, immigration is the problem. They must immediately close their borders to white people from Australia.
18
If a study proves kids suicide rate, depression, schizophrenia and ability to communicate are directly related to computer games and obsessive smart phone use, I’m sure everyone will agree to ban or severely limit their use. Oh, I forgot, studies already have. So everyone, turn in your computers and smart phones. You are killing children, or maiming them for life. Adults, register yours. The government is coming for them.
1
@Jay A study shows kids forms of psychosis is due to electronic devises? What about adults, seniors? Could it be the parents and communities neglect the children, where they are left alone to play only their games without more wholesome community, inspiration and recreation. Honestly, Jay, I seriously doubt most psychologists or psychiatrists would agree with your "study" reference. What a poor analogy!
1
@tennvol30736
Obviously you don’t read enough about the problems linked with children and video games, and the unintended consequences. Articles by psychologists and psychiatrists point to research and studies that confirm the afflictions I mentioned. More research and studies should take place. But, the question must be asked, would any amount of evidence convince society to give up their phones or video games?
1
Christians put an end to the New Zealand Christian peace. Who wants trouble?
Changing gun laws after mass shooting. Kiwi’s are smarter than Americans.
9
The sad cold hard facts is there is no way in this porous globally connected world that you can stop really anyone from obtaining a firearm if they really want one. No law, will really stop anyone from getting the means to do what they want if they want to. Most of the world sadly is corrupt. Access to firearms is as easy as buying one. Many areas in the Middle East and Africa and parts of South America is as easy as showing cash. The world is awash in guns. You really think it’s that hard to get one if you want to hurt innocent people? , that’s why sadly the 2nd amendment is so necessary. We don’t live in a stabile world. We can’t shut our eyes to those facts.
4
@Bill Lombard Most gun owners don't travel the WORLD looking for weapons of mass destruction. The NYT and many others have written about what is highly correlated with homicide rates in various countries; the number of guns in circulation being the first. Bill, there are articles written recently about the very wide ranges of national homicide rates and why. Do you just read selectively and only that which you agree?
5
The sad fact is this man came from a country that had banned the type of weapons he used in the massacre. He couldn’t buy the guns in his own country. He couldn’t massacre people in his own country because he couldn’t get the numerous guns and numerous rounds of ammunition needed to carry out this kind of attack. Gun controls work.
7
There will always be someone selling something that is banned. Ban it and there is a market. Any country with a coastline and you will have guns. No legislation and feel good protests will change that.
As a NZ resident I want all automatic firearms in the hands of the public banned. There is absolutely no justification for anyone needing any more than a single shot long rifle for hunting, farm use or target shooting. We cannot acquiesce to those who want to own military-grade weapons simply because they have an interest, because there is always someone who will get too obsessed with the push-button ease of killing and combine that with strong political or social views. We have already had more than our fair share of multiple-victim murders from firearms. Over the years, talking to friends in the local pub who have firearms it was clear that the lack of firearms serial number and owner registration would eventually become an issue. We don't want to be another USA in 10 years where the cat is truly out of the bag.
8
@Paul A
Agree wholeheartedly. We should ban all handguns and semi-automatic guns and make sure all other guns are registered.
1
What can you do differently?
Terror attacks are done for publicity. You can argue that the person is unbalanced,, and this is a cry for help. It is still publicity, a public cry. Someone has an ideological axe to grind? Shoot 50 people and everyone will know you did it for 'white supremacy',,, or for Allah,, or for the 'Green movement',,, or for the Chatholics,, or the Jewish faith,,,or,,, you just want to set a new 'low' record,,. How many can you kill?
In all cases.. I have seen zero otherwise,, it is done for publicity, notoriety.
And we reward them. We give them exactly what they wanted, lots and lots of publicity. Are we nuts? Blind?
You want to do something different? In the event of a terror attack,,, you never give out a name. You never, never tell what the motivations are, were. You never, never, never,,, do the research and give an in depth look into who did it and why.
You make them nameless, country-less, motivation-less. you call them what they truly are, cowards. You do not number them,, name them by the city, you erase them from all press, radio, tv, news of any kind. Just one word, coward.
Tell the stories of the heros,, the victims, the grief. Just never anything about the perpetrator,, don't even use that word. Just coward.
Do something different.
7
Of course if this had happened in the United States only “thoughts and prayers” would be on offer.
It will be amazing to watch a civilized country have a rational debate on guns.
I guess that’s what happens when you don’t have a political party controlled by Evangelical extremists and gun fanatics. I’ll also admit that New Zealand doesn’t have the same racial dynamics around guns that we have in the United States. Namely, that a significant amount of a gun owners in America own guns because of their abject terror of people of color. Then again, New Zealand does have a political party (the Republicans) and a “news” network (Fox) that demonize people of color 24/7.
When are Americans going to realize that our obsession with guns is linked with racism.
2
it must be a pleasure to make policy in a country of 4.4 million people, with very few immigrants, and practically zero multiculturalism. A lot harder reach agreement a different kind of nation.
4
@Observer of the Zeitgeist NZ has 213 different ethnicities Last year 2.9% of our population had immigrated In that year alone - in the US the figure was 2.4%. Maybe not so different except for attitudes.
14
And patently, smarts.
3
I’m afraid that Observer of the Zeitgeist could not be more wrong about New Zealand’s make up:
Two or three years ago it was reported that Auckland has the fourth largest foreign-born population in the world in an international study, ranking a lineup of the world's most culturally diverse cities.
The city clocked in with 39 percent of the population born overseas.
Only Dubai, Brussels, and Toronto were ranked as cities with larger foreign-born populations anywhere in the world - for Dubai and Brussels the foreign born residents out number local born citizens.
Now, in 2919, the percentage of Aucklanders not born in New Zealand will be much higher.
The Auckland population represents over a third of the country’s population, so its figures are nationally significant.
7
This story is all about racism, not immigration. While it is fine for for white immigrants, like white skinned Danes, Swedes or Norwegians as Donald Trump has remarked, to enter the country, he has banned darker skinned Muslims. White immigrants are welcome - dark ones are not. That's racism, not immigration. The "leader of the free-world" Donald Trump forments racism and the publicity he has generated through his Twitter account and speeches has infected the world.
7
@Mike It isn't just racism. There is a long history of Islamic, Christian religions, races and cultures not getting along. Usually, organized religion and national,tribal politics jst use race simply to divide--the victim/fear mentality in order to maintain power for the few and control the narrative.
1
They are taking a hard look at banning semi automatic weapons. Is Ardern eligible to run here?
6
@tennvol30736
Cars are used. Knives are used. Airplanes are used. Ban cars, knives, and airplanes?
How about train everyone to be fireaem proficient? The Swiss. The Norwegians.
How about stop giving the miscreant exactly what they are asking for,, publicity? That is the motivation. That is why we see it again,, and again. because we give them exactly what they want.
Ya know,,, US aircraft hijackings stopped,,, when not one after DB Cooper was ever successful. It was not profitable,,, the hijackers never got what they wanted,, money.
As long as we get highly detailed descriptions of who,, why they did it, what church or ideology they ascribe to. "Up close and personal.",,,,, as long as we give them what they want,, it will continue to happen.
3
@Deanalfred, You should fact-check your information on how Switzerland and Norway legislate on firearms. Fake news abound. Don't spread them.
2
The NZ PM may may better use of her resources, and establish a basis in fact for policy, by first asking, not what could have been done differently, but rather, what actually was done. A full forensic investigation that can meet the standards of civil and criminal law evidence in adversarial litigation, including appeal, must logically precede response contemplation. On the other hand, this event is not centered in logic, it is centered in mass cognitive and emotional infiltration for special-interest policy defined through programmatic activism. Pity the poor New Zealanders now subject to Western psychological operations. Five Eyes indeed.
I’ve often noticed that the verbiage is inversely proportional to the smarts.
1
What on earth is Mr Anderson trying to tell us?
This is a tragedy. There is no doubt of that whatsoever. However, I agree with the lawmakers of New Zealand that an in-the-middle response is a must when considering gun regulation. Knee-jerk reactions on either side will only result in bitterly acrimonious and polarizing rhetoric.
Consider that New Zealand's gun regulation is far more strict than that of the United States. There's even a blurb embedded in this very article. It takes six steps in a long and laborious process that can months before you can finally buy a gun of any kind in New Zealand.
Please, let us first take time to properly mourn the dead. Please, let's first investigate this incident to the fullest extent possible.
Then, and ONLY THEN, should you consider new gun regulation, and ONLY if you are going to carry it out in a manner of civility and a heartfelt desire to not cause difficulties for other people.
I understand the desire for swift action, but people need to have a chance to come to terms before making decisions that can't be taken back easily.
1
@Ben The families and out people will be mourning. But you can make effective changes in this time.
2
Australia made its changes in 12 days and they have worked wonderfully.
4
@Roderick Joyce
We should have changed our laws at the same time. Better late than never.
Are gun-control advocates okay with school shootings happening as long as only guns with a non-automatic fire rate are used? Are you trying to challenge future murderers to think outside the box?
Personally, I'm more worried about the tendency for young men to want to murder in the first place rather than the existence of any particular murder weapon.
School shootings can always be made better or worse quantitatively (i.e. 5 people died instead of 10, or 15 people died instead of 10), however, the goal should be to address the issue qualitatively (i.e. why does someone want to murder? why does some carry out a murder? what can we do to placate hypothetical murderers?).
3
@Johnny
Murderous young men have been around for quite a while now. Tough to imagine how you are going to stop murder.
1
Good government response, but the Times photographers are telling another story, perhaps more important, of students strong reactions. The photos do not fit the article. Editors - why is there nothing in the article about the students in the photos with two reporters there?
See:
www.buzzfeed.com/hannahryan/christchurch-school-students-vigil-mosque
www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/03/turn-love-students-pay-tribute-nz-attack-victims-190318110039379.html
2
@Wendy - thank you for including the link to the description of student vigil - powerful, moving.
1
Great photo at the top. No cell phones, no undercurrent of partying.
Just facing reality. Ugly reality.
5
Well done New Zealand and Jacinda Ardern, showing the world the way in your handling this awful event with such care, consideration and commonsense decisive action.
I would give my eye teeth to have you as our Prime Minister.
We need you so desperately, even if only for a short loan.
7
Your average mediocre person. You know you regular folks, they will never understand nor accept this, so the media and politicians never will either, but the answer to the question posed in the title is: NOTHING.
For sheltered suburban middle class people, that scares the daylights out of them, but it is the truth. That is why the American founding father were smart enough to understand inherent rights. Because you can't stop this.
4
But you can reduce it. When will America learn???
3
Here’s what they could have done differently... in fact what we all can do.
When a human is raised anywhere in the world, educate them in part with a scientifically-based and backed regimen of learned compassion, with accurate insights into human psychology and self-awareness tools so they can navigate their lesser, instinctive impulses. Keep up this learning with bi-annual refreasher courses. Do whatever it takes to have every darn human understand themselves and their society and how to help both thrive and WANT to.
It’s not about guns so much. We’re looking in the wrong places for solutions... we need to start thinking how to educate every human better. There is no other way.
Embrace the science and start testing this now.
2
There is no science on this “learned compassion,” jazz. You teach this stuff the way it’s always been taught: good families, decent communities, and some degree of social justice.
Security and peace are also good.
@Robert So many serial killers and mass murderers come from “good families”. Sorry, but that’s vague and spotty in results any way. Give me systemic rearing for humans that works for individual thriving every time. That’s the goal. Science can get us this!
The traditional way you speak of isn’t working, obviously. Look at the news any given day. We need a new approach and I say science will show us that we are raising our kids all wrong (and too hands off).
Right. Because you were specific.
Lemme guess what you do for a living. Life coach, perchance?
A civilized society where human lives matter will work into taking quick action. A civilized society where right to bear arms is more important than human lives will engage in endless debates and offer zero solution.
5
@ALN
If you are serious, then you have not been paying attention. Your response is probably focused upon the first thing that comes to mind, and that is how it associates with some other issue that you feel is very important.
This violence is rare for countries like New Zealand, and they have responded to previous incidents by imposing more controls over firearms. But anyone who is determined to commit this kind of atrocity will go to whatever lengths that they must to obtain the weaponry that they use. Witness Mr. Brevik in Norway, he expended tremendous efforts over many months to obtain the weapons which he used.
Preventing people like these from killing requires identifying them specifically. Trying to eliminate the weapons that they use is a like using a vast gill net to capture one fish that one could get spear fishing, a lot of misplaced effort that has only a partial chance of success.
2
@Casual Observer, look at the prompt response from the head of state in NZ and compare that to ours. Ours wouldn't even call a terrorist a terrorist if they are not brown or black. How many times have you heard any productive discussion on stricter gun laws in this country?
9
@ALN
People who commit horrors like this on their own have a rage inside that began developing as small children and nobody understood that a killer was growing in that child.
Brevik was well studied by the author who wrote about him in a book and describes him in a column today. But when you read the book, you can see that his actions were meant as vengeance for all of his inner unhappiness through his life. Terrorists want to cause fear and further conflict to create chaos. Destruction of human life is the means. Brevik wanted to destroy human life and the issues he ranted about were just to give him a coherent story. Those with who he’d shared his talk about immigrants and traitorous Norwegians quickly withdrew contact with him after this act. He’d gone way beyond what any of them could accept.
There are people who have been influenced by others who have cult like influences over followers like Manson’s people and even like theme killers inspired by ISIS. That is plenty to worry about in this time. Addressing hate campaigns and confronting them as well as monitoring people who express intentions to harm people need to be addressed. But some people are just plain predatory killers of people who will not be stopped until they are found out.
If that guy with the credit card machine were a concealed carry holder, he could have shot the terrorist. If there were ten concealed carry shooters then the terrorist would not have had a chance. Heck, he ran away from a credit card machine.
3
@John murders rate in NZ <1 per 100,000. Murder rate in the US 4.6 per 100,000. You do the Math and explain why carrying guns is a good thing.
3
Yea sure, but if the terrorist was armed with a credit card machine imagine how few people he would have shot.
I guess that in the US, there is no need to ask "what could have been done differently"
Problem: the victims
Solution: easier access to guns, arm the teachers, carry guns with you everywhere.
Result: there are now so many shootings, that only the major catastrophes are published. Even then, no plans for change, just condolences. How many more have to die???
2
What could New Zealand have done differently ?
to begin with:
Have a law such as the US that prevents foreigners from legally buying guns or having guns
----
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonimmigrant-alien-who-has-been-admitted-united-states-under-nonimmigrant-visa
2
"The other people are going to want a ban on everything."
This quote from the NZ gun owner in the article is a common straw man argument in the US as well. Follow NRA and their members on social media and you see this argument all the time. But very few people calling for common sense gun control want a ban on everything. In fact, even the woman described in the article protesting the gun store said she had no problems with bolt-action rifles. But she, quite correctly, saw no need for semiautomatic rifles with 30 round quick change magazines. In New Zealand as in the US, the wildlife don't shoot back. You don't need to lay down suppressive fire and beat them in a firefight. NRA types know this and know this is a much harder position to argument, so they resort to the straw man argument that gun control advocates want to take everything right down to black powder muskets.
3
First, ban all the guns and take them away. Yes, every last one, it's too late for the law abiding gun owners, you had your chance to fix this and did nothing. Anyway, killing deer and other animals is totally sicko too.
Second, Facebook and the Social Media know everything about everybody and predict purchasing behavior thus can predict "crazy gunman" behavior. Someone can write a "Watch Out - Crazy Gunman on the Rampage Near You" app and send you an alert, just like a traffic alert.
10
I am hoping that besides asking what went wrong with this individual incident, we will also ask what's going on with society as a whole. I keep waiting for us to do some serious reckoning and shift of public consciousness, but people are afraid of the big questions. Saying "humans were violent in the past" is easier than addressing this particular strain of violent culture. This particular strain is its own new creature and we need to ask ourselves big questions about it.
In my view, one part of the problem is: our attention economy is creating a new society where notoriety - all kinds, fame or infamy - is economically valuable. The New Yorker didn't invite Banon to its festival because he is a valuable thinker, but because he could direct attention, bring clicks, which brings money. The fact that eyeballs = money is making us unconsciously positively associate media attention. It sickens me that a murder can gloat and enjoy his news coverage, but we - all of us - have allowed to frame all attention as good attention.
Another issue I see is that we tend to believe we can feast on a diet of any garbage media and choose to be affected by it. Millions of people watched the video of the shooting - some I have read saying they believed it was necessary. As if you can watch something horrible like that and decide to come out better for it! I'm afraid that won't be the case for most, but we don't reckon enough with the limits of our control.
Just the tip of the iceberg...
2
What NZ has done in the span of 48 hours is more than the US has done over the past decade. And this is in reaction to 1 incident as opposed to the numerous incidents in the US. Pathetic
4
When the US has a mass shooting we offer hopes and prayers to the victims and urge the “good guys”’ to take up arms so the NRA gets their money’s worth from our politicians.
When New Zealand has a mass shooting the government overhauls gun laws.
How quaint!
1
Strangely the photos don't seem to match the story, although the captions hint at what is going on. This was a student lead vigil, organised at short notice by the student leadership at one of the schools that was badly affected - seven current or former students and parents killed or injured. My child attends that school and my sense is that every single one of the 2000 or so pupils is shaken by this whether or not they knew the dead and injured students directly
While investigations will be required and justice must be served they aren't really front and center in many people's minds right now. Many of us are more concerned about explaining this to our kids, making them feel safe and not powerless. Student-led movements (along the lines of the Parkland response) are a powerful tool for achieving all of those and hopefully for reinforcing that the perverted "vision" the perpetrator had will never come to fruition and will always be roundly rejected.
I'd also prefer to see the alleged offender not named in such articles, that's the sort of infamy he wanted. I wish to see his name extinguished from public discourse. "A tiny man with a big gun" is a suitable alternative in my opinion.
12
This is another Thomas Hobbes(Security) vs John Locke(Rights/Freedom) situation. Predicted more than 200 years ago by founding fathers.
3
Tarrant is a product of Australia. For a liberal Aussie this is not only tragic but excruciatingly embarrassing. I know this place. As a child of the fifties... I know this place. We never had slavery except with the south seas Pacific islanders who were imported to Queensland to work on sugarcane plantations as virtual slavery. But I do assure you that Americans are much better about race than Australians generally speaking. Of course there are many broad-minded Australians and we are a muti-cultural society but you may like to investigate the White Australia policy that only ended in 1973 and the fact that Aboriginal people were not considered citizens in their own country and only given the vote and citizenship in 1968. This is our ugly little secret. Forget shrimps on the barbie... Croc Dundee pulling the knife on the African American stereotype thief is more indicative of our attitude. Still I love Australia. You might like to look into the treatment of Australian of the Year Adam Goodes- a champion Aussie Rules football player- who was mercilessly and relentlessly booed into retirement. Why? For sticking up for his severely downtrodden Indigenous people. I do love Australia which is now a multicultural vibrant place but there is a bigoted underbelly.
This is where Tarrant comes from. I know this place... and few of us will tell you this. Remember I know this place. We have many Trump supporters. You would be surprised how many. I now this place.
16
On the same day, in the same newspaper, on the same page:
"Anders Breivik, the Norwegian terrorist, was diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder. Brenton Tarrant, who is accused of killing 50 worshipers in New Zealand, displays similar traits."
How about prohibiting them buying guns? Sometimes the answers are so simple.
4
@Marc
Tens of millions of people in the world have narcissistic personality disorder. Try screening for them. Lots of false positives here in preventing violence
2
@John I'd rather have a million people denied a gun than one person killed by someone with a personality disorder.
1
Back in 1969 John Brunner wrote a novel explaining the phenomenon:
“Stand on Zanzibar” (which has nothing to do with that island) - tells us that when it comes to this kind of violence- there is NO WAY to prepare for it.
Maybe limit the kinds of weapons one can own for “self defense” (owning any, much more often, leads to family murder, suicide or accidental death). Barring military-grade weaponry will cut deaths. The hunters I know don’t own them - they also don’t regard firearms as “protection”.- Target shooters lock away their spots gear, often their most valuable possessions.
Brunner’s killers, called “muckers” (from “amok”).
“You can survive a mugger, you cannot survive a mucker,” he writes. The latter is berserk. (Check the origin of that word) ...
... Unless one is prepared, at any time, to take the life of another human (in which case the last thing one needs is a weapon. Look at how the few police who are destroy any trust with those good cops want to help.
A person gone berserk wants to kill and doesn’t fear death - sane people do.
What we can also do is teach that we are all in this together - there are no separate human “races” just human, and those into Crusade/Jihad; Mypeople Supremacy; Nationalism, etc. ARE, by definition, mad ...
... And politicians who push the lies that language, faith or skin color, who divide us in any way, are unfit to serve in Congress or the White House.
Or any other allegedly free governments’ office.
Let the Rule of Law remove them.
4
All these beautiful young human faces. They are the future of humanity! They will never stop caring.
5
Kiwis have gone through the shock, guilt, ashamed, grief stages and we're now entering into the angry stage of this tragic event. Just heard on radio news that a rifle club up north has been burnt down. We're kiwis and we'll sort it so this NEVER happens again.
4
Neither New Zealand nor anyone else could have done anything to stop this. This is that "lone" wolf everyone talks about. He was going about his business perfectly legally and then one day decided that today he was going to kill some Muslims in a mosque and chose the Friday prayers time as he knew there would be few assembled in one place, totally unsuspecting, unprepared, off guard, and easy targets.
I understand why he did what he did and he is not alone in his grievances. When British were ruling India and Indians wanted to travel to UK, they were disliked by the locals because the Indians were supposed to be "lower" category persons. The Brits took Indians to many places as indentured servants, like they took the blacks as slaves to USA. The issue here is that New Zealanders, and majority Australians, are "actually" British and older members of the society still have that resentment or empire lost and why this "servant" class is now living well, eating well, holding good employment, driving good cars, etc. In many cases doing all this better than the "master" British class.
Regardless of how the laws have been for equality, there has to be a paradigm shift in the thinking. This type of hateful thinking is learned and is learned at home. Investigators must look at his family life and get a full picture of this person.
NZ, you could have done nothing to avoid this and will not avoid another one in the future... it is regrettable but true.
1
@FM Kia ora from New Zealand FM. As a 5th generation Pakeha (white) New Zealander I can say loud and clear I do not regard myself as 'British', nor do any of my friends or family, not even the older ones. We are New Zealanders, 'Kiwis', and no more think of ourselves as British than your average Houstonian.
Don't let the facts we're a member of the British Commonwealth and Queen Elizabeth II our head of state mislead you.
As for the master and servant analogy you use, the Victorian class system quickly broke down here in the late 19th and early 20th century as those who had been oppressed and suffering in the UK worked to create a nation based on worker's rights, a social safety net and equality.
Injustices suffered by native Maori have been addressed via our Waitangi Tribunal.
We are not a perfect country, for sure. We suffer from terrible economic inequality since market reforms were introduced in the 1980s, and yes, there are incidents of racial abuse and some cases of labour exploitation, but we do not regard ourselves as 'British', nor as 'masters' and 'servants'.
3
Banned AR 15s. Easy. They didn't do it and paid the price. Though the price was paid by innocents. Disgraceful. Another of Britain's evil offspring , Australia and the US are the others.,
“'Within 10 days of this horrific act of terrorism, we will have announced reforms that I believe will have made our community safer,' Ms. Ardern said."
This is the perfect, logical response to an act of terrorism. The US has had numerous opportunities to make the same actions, and yet we have done nothing. The US is shamed by New Zealand. So much for the most powerful country in the world.
11
The US government could stop sanctioning racial, ethnic and gender discrimination. Candy coating it as "affirmative action" does not fool anyone.
5
No new bogus gun law is going to stop a mad man bent of violence. Anti-gun laws only impact law abiding gun owners.
2
You are right. And that’s why we are going to have to pass a set of really tough gun laws. We don’t really need guns anyways, even for hunting. I say let them hunt with spears. Our ancestors did.
This was a rare event for Christchurch, New Zealand. Even with good efforts and alert public safety practices, not all of these kinds of horrific events can be prevented. All anyone can do is to try and prepare for when the preventions fail to prevent.
New Zealand - investigate facts and take action
United States - thoughts and prayers
Such a contrast in leadership!
335
@Paul
Sometimes it's the simplicity of a comment that resonates the loudest roar.
Well done Paul!
28
In a public statement the NRA is standing strong on its right to send thoughts & prayers.
12
@Paul
I sincerely hope that the current NZ government can back its words with action, as happened in the UK after Dunblane, and in Australia after Port Arthur.
17
Interesting to see that as American-style domestic terrorism spreads to nations, they seem to feel that mass shootings deserve a social policy response. They're asking why it happened and what they could do differently.
Whereas in the United States we've just come to accept it that large numbers of people are going to be moved down by angry men with automatic weapons numerous times every year. The right of the gun owner to own military-grade weaponry trumps the right of people to attend school, church, concerts, movies, and other gatherings without being slaughtered, and we don't even really question that anymore.
Maybe we'll learn something from the New Zealanders. But I doubt it. I just hope they don't learn anything more from us.
263
@Joe M.
You're absolutely right. American gun culture is so ingrained in our society that we allow the rights of a minority to supersede the well-being of our society.
It's terrible to admit, but our country is the direct product of hundreds of years of global imperialism that has European roots. People with guns swarmed across the continent, violently displacing the indigenous peoples.
This has become a subconscious memory to those who cling to their weapons. The desire to hang on to what their people have stolen through force is what lingers in the American psyche.
27
@Joe M. "Whereas in the United States we've just come to accept it that large numbers of people are going to be moved down by angry men with automatic weapons numerous times every year."
Numerous times every month, actually, if not numerous ties every week. We have gotten to the point where national news only reports the big, sensational shootings. We are so numb that there are plenty of shootings that don't make national news. Some road rage incident that maybe kills one and wounds half a dozen people would barely make local news these days.
12
@Susan
"American gun culture"?
"This has become a subconscious memory to those who cling to their weapons"?
You literally can't see beyond the horizon of the comfort and security of your own circumstances can you? For plenty of us in cities like Detroit, owning and training with firearms is a matter of necessity, not "culture" or your own apparent white guilt...
7
The irony is that the anti-immigrant mass murderer in Christchurch was himself an immigrant. And lest all those "white supremacists" out there forget: New Zealand was a Maori land for centuries before uninvited immigrants from Europe invaded this Maori territory and overwhelmed the pre-existing culture. For Americans, think Hawaii. And let us not forget who occupied North and South America for millennia before the Europeans (aka White Supremacists) brought their "Christian culture" along with their diseases to destroy the indigenous cultures. Rah Rah Rah for White Supremacy!
170
@RLW It's not about immigration at all. It's about racism. It's OK for white immigrants, like this Australian to move to New Zealand, it's the darker skinned immigrants who are being shot down in cold blood. It's racism - nothing to do with immigration.
13
@RLW
New Zealand being Maori actually is a feather in the cap for the super-miscasts. Since the denigration and mistreatment of the Maori is a stunning example of how native peoples can get absolutely destroyed when foreign people arrive en masse.
Your logic is failing unfortunately.
3
@Emily Maori collectively had a rough time with colonialism no doubt, but our history is rather different to that of Australia or the US. There was a Treaty/Tiriti signed with Britain, and theoretically they were on equal terms with pakeha/Europeean settlers. There were land wars, and terrible injustices, but it was never a one sided thing. I hope - and it appears we are, constitutionally - moving toward honouring the original bicultural intent of Te Tiriti, while also not marginalising Maori people or culture, in general. For the avoidance of doubt for US readers, Maori - as well as being descended from the original first inhabitants of Aotearoa - are for the most part just regular New Zealanders as much as anything, and many, many people have mixed heritage. Michael King’s History of New Zealand is a good starting point.
11
"New Zealand officials are now wondering if they missed something about Mr. Tarrant, a 28-year-old Australian citizen who lived in Dunedin and is the suspect in the shootings at two mosques in Christchurch on Friday that left at least 50 people dead."
Yes they missed the fact that as a result of lax gun control laws this man bought 4 firearms and ammunition since 2017. What does a guy need with four guns and one a semi-automatic rifle. Does anyone standing next to anyone at a gun club know the intentions of the other shooters around them and are any of them trained or even inclined to look for early warning signs of instability.
In a civilized society, civilized people do not need to arm themselves.
174
@Steve
But not everybody in a civilized society is civilized so how do you protect yourself from them..
8
@Steve-Agreed. Hopefully not only will NZ create model legislation to ban assault weapons and multiple gun sales, they'll restrict bullets. Let the U.S. learn from and follow New Zealand and other enlightened countries' measures. "Roughly a third of American gun owners buy guns without a background check...." How insane is that?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/02/world/international-gun-laws.html
5
@JustaVET
I call the police, if possible. Where were all these "civilized" people with guns when this guy decided to show up and murder 50 people. If you are in church in Texas some Sunday (Sutherland Springs, Texas, 26 dead comes to mind) and a deranged killer with a semi-automatic rifle enters your church intent on killing everyone what are you going to do.
13
New Zealand's response is already a major improvement over the typical reaction of the United States following a massacre of thoughts and prayers followed by agreements to do nothing because "there is nothing that would have prevented it." Here we are, a nation with a $700 billion defense budget to protect us from threats far and wide, yet we claim we are helpless to prevent a lone home-grown terrorist from murdering scores of innocent people. The status quo response is, the U.S. is weak and the lone degranged inidivual who is heavily armed is in charge, so all we can do is concede that that U.S. is a battlefield and we must live accordingly, always in "situational awareness." So good on New Zealand. It is not conceding defeat.
250
@DL: And your proposal is...what? To ban private ownership of firearms and confiscate every one of them from every citizen of the United States?
5
@DL
It is conceding defeat. It is altering its culture at the manipulative direction of a mass murderer.
4
@Joe Schmoe. Your suggested course of action sounds very moral, mature and compassionate. Other non-totalitarian countries have made greatly effective (although not perfect) strides in that direction without people getting their knickers in a twist. Why not, if human life is truely valued?
29
New Zealand's response is what sensible nations would do ( Australia did the same thing with very good outcomes).
We in this country had babies being murdered in school at Connecticut and cannot even summon up the will to pass background checks and closing loopholes.
27
I would think that only two firearms are possibly required per person. A rifle (with a 3 shoot magazine at most) and a shotgun with six shots. They do not need to be semi-automatic. You can pump a shotgun to shoot game birds, and you can rechamber a round to finish a hunt. You do not need over 50 rounds of anything in your possession unless you live in a remote area for an extended time. Nobody needs an assault rifle unless they have being up to no good. If they feel threatened by their neighbours, call the police.
14
@Dorado
I always wonder when I hear of people killing animals, did they have bad experiences with animals when they were young, is that why they invade the home of other species and kill them for fun?
I mean, c'mon, what did a bird ever do to these people that makes them want to kill the birds.
If animals hunted us, or if humans hunted humans for sport, maybe we'd see the obvious fact that hunting is barbaric, primitive, ghoulish.
@Steve Davies
Dear Steve Davies,
Killing animals should not be taken lightly.
I have shot, killed and ate wild game, but when I see them dead and unmoving, I do feel a sense of sorrow.
Nevertheless, unless you are a vegetarian, you are a dreadful hypocrite who goes and purchases animal carcasses at the grocery store, without taking responsibility for their death. Because most assuredly, an animal died for you dinner.
I mean what did a cow ever do to you?
1
Follow Japan's model. After the country's defeat and shameful experience with wars and occupying foreign lands, the country renounced violence and imposed the strictest gun laws. The reversal was an epochal change in the mentality of a people, a change from an ethos of violence to one of deep nonviolence.
America is not only armed to the teeth but is becoming more violent by the day; it exports this violence and ethos of criminality starting with the president who surely has blood on his hands.
17
Going through the Times, a ran across this short item on a daylight physical attack on a New Zealand cabinet minister walking to work. As when GOP matrons spat on Adlai Stevenson in Dallas months before JFK was assassinated there in November 1963, a climate of contempt can embolden more deadly individuals to act out their need for violence.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/world/asia/james-shaw-new-zealand-minister-attack.html
4
I can think of no better initial response to this horrific crime than those hundreds (thousands?) of diverse teenagers memorializing the victims together. May we adults follow their example. And if the NYT can report on the genesis of the teens' actions, wonderful.
9
I wish we could have Jacinda Ardern in place of Donald Trump for even one month. At least I could get a consistently good night's rest during that time.
51
@Marge Keller Yes, you DO have a younger version of Jacinda Ardern, and in ten years or so she may be sufficiently experienced and in a position to lead her nation just as Ardern is now. Her name is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and her politics are the same: democratic socialist.
@Marge Keller - compassion, intelligence, logical decision making, and keen understanding of what she does not know yet and needs to go find out from experts - we're not even two and a half years down this rabbit hole, and I can't even remember what it was like to trust our president.
2
Have Facebook, Twitter, etc. closed the accounts of those who are reposting the video?
6
The USA investigated the Vegas shooter, and after months and huge manpower concluded they had no idea what his motive was.
These kind of investigations are largely a waste of time. Exactly why someone chooses to flip from thinking, to wanting, to actually doing this kind of massacre will never teach us enough to prevent the next one. All we can do is make it hard or harder to obtain the kind of battlefield weaponry that runs up the death count.
NZ may respond by outlawing semi-auto rifles. That is an appropriate measure. The USA has responded to multiple mass shootings by doing nothing, and allowing a spike in gun sales to actually increase the chances of a repeat event. Other, saner countries are guided by the responses in Australia and the U.K, as well they should.
27
@Xoxarle
They reached conclusions they just didn't want to go public with what they were. Paddock thought he was targeting Trump supporters, 2nd Amendment Supporters and that his act would lead to the Amendment of the 2nd ultimately. That last part a bit of speculation but the first I am certain of. He thought he was killing deplorables and that was his primary motive.
@GregP Source, please.
2
@GregP, I wonder where your certainty comes from. Given the size and complexity of Paddock's arsenal, it strains credibility to consider him an anti 2nd amendment activist.
Who is "they," and what is the source of your information about their conclusions?
4
'We the People' have created silos of hatred on our social media platforms where vulnerable people are enticed, recruited and altered with daily enflamed vitriol. I have no doubt that many who carry these crimes out believe they are doing the work of their higher power no less than the suicide bombers do. Yes, guns play a part concerning the level of lethality, but it is the society that only comes together to grieve after the fact that needs to be altered. If our very varied religions and cultures would make concerted efforts to integrate, understand one another's concerns and needs and reach out rather than siloed that would do more than any gun measures. Hatred is best fanned in the flames of ignorance.
4
I am wondering with increasing irritation when it is we are going to acknowledge right wing extremist terrorism as an equal concern to any other. Somehow it has been repeatedly swept under the rug in the Untied States in a way which would never be dreamed of with its Islamic equivalent.
One can only reasonably conclude that the glaring disparity in treatment comes from the same well of prejudice and hate that fuels right wing extremism. Sending one to Guantamno Bay, and turning a blind eye to the other - how is that not implicitly condoning part of their message and encouraging them?
8
As an employee, if I were to make on-going, coded comments of hate toward my co-workers, I would, at minimum, be reprimanded severely. Most likely, I'd be fired. I my behavior would be written up as sociopathic and dangerous.
Considering the influence that the U.S. presidency has on the world, why have the American people not yet reprimanded or fired their president?
14
@Susan
Excellent question!
November next year we know the answer. Kind regards
3
Here in the US the founding fathers wanted the citizens armed so that they could protect themselves from tyranny. But the Democrats side with history's tyrants the Lenins, Stalins, Hitlers, Mao Tse-tungs, Fidel Castros, etc..
Still waiting for the Clintons, Obamas, Bloomberg, Cuomo, Pelosi etc to lead by example and disarm their security details. What limousine liberals. George Orwell could not have written it better.
4
What kind of tyranny are citizens of first world countries with strong gun control exposed to? Please give specific examples.
Security details are armed for most senior politicians in most countries. That is the norm. However mass shootings are a lot less frequent than here in the USA because ordinary citizens are not allowed to amass personal arsenals. The right to own is the right to dispense death quickly and efficiently. That’s the ONLY right conferred. Everything else is a chimera, a fantasy.
3
Sorry New Zealand, our President is a White Nationalist--and those whose minds are filled with hate are crazy. So, it is no surprise that a portion of our geriatric Caucasian (mixed) population is crazy too. Crazy can't diagnose crazy. The enbablers though are the real evil people. They know better, but are too much of self-serving cowards to do anything.
9
This post itself boarders on racism itself. While I'm convinced Trump speaks, acts and associates with white nationalist causes, lumping 'geriactric Caucasians' into the mix is as racist as saying most Muslims are terrorists, most blacks are welfare cheers, Mexicans imigrants are criminals, and other Trump coined phrases.
As we are finding in real time with our president, words DO matter. We should take this lesson to heart and all use our words carefully. Thanks
2
@Daniel:Sorry Europe is being overrun with millions of war refugees and who do you think pays for their welfare (housing,medical,schooling,training,clothing) that's right the citizens of those countries. Those countries now have to cut services drastically to their own people and it's not hate but just reaction by citizens. Calling them hate, racists shows utter disregard for the truth when they should be calling an end to endless US inspired Muslim wars.
1
@Daniel Trump thinks he's entitled to comment on each & every subject that comes up. Loves to hear himself talk, and doesn't care about what effect his speech may have. In short, he doesn't watch his mouth!
2
It's not clear to me why New Zealand needs to do anything differently. Here's a society that has a million guns on hands, yet lives in a state of utter peace and tolerance. A violent immigrant Australian comes along and creates havoc. It's the Australians, like the Americans, who need to be tending their fascist fringes.
13
@MP:Wait til New Zealand is overrun by millions of war refugees from the middle East. I can guarantee the citizens are not going to like it. Europe is overrun with them costing Billions of dollars annually plus heavy increase in crime.
1
The world can start to prevent terrorism by censoring the internet by doing what our government has done; banning IP addresses for websites such as 8chan, kiwifarms, and voat. The unpalatable truth is that these types of sick sites that the foreign aussie terrorist frequented, fuelled this unrepairable terrorist act.
4
What can we do differently? How about we start by seeing every human equally? How about we put an end to implicit bias? How about we stop drawing conclusions as to whether someone is good or bad, based on the color of their skin? How does Stephen Paddock haul 24 weapons, including AR15s, AR10s, thousands of rounds of ammunition and related hardware, up to two rooms at the Mandalay Bay casino hotel (with the help of hotel bell hops mind you!) and no one bats an eye? How does Brenton Tarrant buy 4 weapons and ammunition from the same retailer in a 3 month period, and no one bats an eye? What is it about them that tells the people they come in contact with that these are "good" guys??
4
@Ken
We are all guilty, lots of blah-blah, a short prayer and condolences when school kids are murdered and hoping it will not happen again.
Luckily the NZ Prime Minister has ordered a full investigation what/how it happened and the NZ Government will review the gun laws seriously. Good on them and the NZ people, they can act that way as no NRA exists in NZ.
Looking forward with hope to the eventual changes and the reports. Maybe we will learn from their experience.
Kind regards.
Sen. Fraser Anning blamed New Zealand immigration policy for the shootings in Christchurch. And he is right. New Zealand should not have allowed white Australians into their country. If they are smart, they will also keep an eye on those white Americans.
14
When white European Judeo- Christians arrived in New Zealand they colonized and conquered the brown ethnic Polynesian Maori pioneers who had arrived centuries before.
The New Zealand Wars that happened between 1845- 1872 killed about 2100 Maori and about 800 Europeans. That was the final ethnic sectarian cleansing terrorist terminal phase.
Outside of the New Zealand All Black rugby team haka, the Maori are ignored and marginalized. But the Maori are as alive and well and real as the Kiwi.
The European Judeo- Christian white washing of New Zealand history recalls the arrival of the same ethnic sectarian cohort in the American and a similar myth making fantasy.
3
@Blackmamba
How sad, unfortunately true.
I have visited NZ regularly between 1965 and 1969 and found it an amazing country. Problems with the Maoris yes, and from their point of view rightly so. Eventually these problems were solved by discussions between the parties concerned.
You have a very valid point about what you call the European Judeo-Christian's involvement in this. I opine that it was caused by the Anglo-Saxon Christians, the other groups came later.
The same happened in Australia and - helas - in our own USA as well.
Anywhere where the Pommies planted their flag, eventually this ended badly (India/Pakistan, Palestina to name a few).
@Blackmamba "... the Maori are ignored and marginalized." This, emphatically, is not true. Off the top of my head I cannot think of any other nation in which the colonised indigenous peoples have so successfully negotiated bicultural concord. Race relations in NZ are far from perfect, but certainly better than in most countries.
1
Ms. Ardern is pledging to strengthen New Zealand’s feeble gun control laws, which are obviously deficient.
A good next step might be the reintroduction of the death penalty in New Zealand, which was abolished several years ago.
1
If death penalty was a deterrent, you wouldn’t see so many mass shootings here in America. It clearly isn’t. In fact, many mass shootings end with the perpetrator shooting himself.
2
It's about time to call these Trump-inspired White Supremacists a global terrorist group as far as I'm concerned. But it's refreshing to see that New Zealand can at least have a bi-partisan dialogue on making common sense changes to their laws -- something we're sorely lacking despite the obvious crises of terrorism that is now afflicting us.
4
In the wake of this tragedy, I feel that those of us in the USA need to understand that we are now exporting our style of anger driven gun violence.
I, for one, am glad they NZ is investigating the shooting and seriously considering engaging in gun reform. That is the proper response. Whether action MUST be taken is the purview of the legislators and the PM of NZ and their answer will hopefully work for them to ease the public and curb further acts of violence.
We must understand that white supremacy is becoming a scourge not JUST of the USA (e.g. Dylan Roof) but with social media, and yes, our POTUS's underhanded support, spreading everywhere. I fear that this attack will not the only one of which we read of in the near future.
I hope that we in the USA can take the lessons learned by NZ and apply them to our own horrific mass shooting pox.
3
Sadly, there is nothing they could have done. Now, if you want a cop on every block taking names and notes on every household, then maybe yes--it might have helped. All cultures must balance freedom to come and go, to speak freely, to seek liberty and happiness with restrictions, e.g., the police, informants, etc.
How do you follow a person who keeps to themselves. I don't know if this guy ever published anything on social media. So there is no way of knowing his innermost thoughts. Most of these extreme bigots (both left and right) think that expressing their extreme views will get them exposed and perhaps suffer harm of some kind.
I will say it again, all of these incidents are symptoms of a profoundly broken society, of people who have been disenfranchised to the point of anger and hopelessness. Of a society that is soaked in violence, look at our TV, movies, literature, our music especially popular music with its glorification of violence and degradation of women.
When this is what people see and take in all the time, of course they see violence as a legitimate response. I do not see this as an excuse for their actions, but as a symptom of a society that has gotten off on the wrong track. Just like when a person makes a mistake and their are consequences, so to with societies. We have been on the wrong path and these are the consequences. The consequences will get more frequent and worse the longer we stay on this path.
Ideas which will lead us to a safer path include:
How to deal with anger
Compromise is not a dirty word.
Servant Leadership
Having convictions is good, forcing them on others is not.
Being successful means you have helped other to be successful too.
Respect
Manners
There are many others but that will get us started. The only people to blame for the state of the world is us. These incidents are holding up a mirror to us to say "This is your society, are you happy with what you have done?"
11
@Bruce1253 they used to hang draw and quarter people as a spectacle in town squares and people would show up to watch it, just for fun. By that metric things have anything but got worse. Not to dismiss the issues you right raise, but the pessimism in it is excessive.
2
@Thomas Wright
We kill between 14,000 - 16,000 each year with guns and have done so for years. There are 100+ mass shootings each year. I don't think I am pessimistic, I am trying to wake people up.
Look!! This is what's happening, we can do better.
1
New Zealand doesn't have a National Terrorist Association sitting on top of its bribed, corrupted Congress the way the United States of Guns does.
This means that New Zealand is free to listen to the will and public safety wishes of its citizens, unlike in America and its national shooting gallery where the will of the people and their public safety do NOT matter.
New Zealand will demonstrate its humanity and decency with new and sensible gun control.
Meanwhile, the United States of Guns will continue to bury 85 American gun violence victims every day of the year thanks to zero gun control, 'thoughts and prayers', and the National Terrorist Association (NTA).
Wake up America; you're in the NTA's line of fire.
90
@Socrates
"Downtown Verona" sounds like a very "nice and safe community" Socrates...sounds like a real racially/ethnically diverse place...
...here in Detroit--home to some of the worst urban poverty ever created in an American city--the Chief of Police recommended that people arm themselves, and we regularly here about law-abiding citizens and neighbors successfully defending themselves and/or their loved ones with their guns. That's because they are at least close to being comparably armed as those who would "trespass against" them or those they love.
Poor and working people in cities like Detroit have armies or criminals with ILLEGALLY purchased/derived guns on one side of our lives, and police forces with hand-me-down gear, vehicles, and weapons from the military on the other side of our lives--you seem like a clever person, so you might want to check that myopia that makes you consistently speak like there is one monolithic situation in this country. I don't think "Downtown Verona" has prepared you to speak for those of us in cities like Detroit...
6
@Socrates we definitely do have a uniquely troubled and complicated relationship with weapons.
That combined with a conservative moment that has grown more ardent and extreme gradually, and pushed this issue to an extreme with considerable success.
I believe a push back to that has begun, but the seriously factitious nature of this situation is in itself a huge problem. They may be infuriatingly wrong in their belief that every dog, horse and baby should be able to access an assault rifle with the ease of grabbing a pack of gum, but they are a sizable chunk of our nation that we still somehow need to engage with on this, and somehow walk back from their dangerously verging on militant perspectives on it all, 'liberal takeover' etc.
3
@Socrates
I agree with your broader point but with a nuance: in the US politicians exist to be re-elected, not to lead. Nothing matters more. Its not the NRA's fault, its that the politicians are putting up "for sale" signs on themselves and are willing to do whatever it takes to get NRA money, lives be damned.
6
I've read conflicting stories and information and it's sad in this modern age that the media have lost their professionalism and spout any kind of theory so as to keep their advertisers and keep their profits up for their shareholders. I don't know what to believe anymore as you can get any conclusion you want by what you leave in and out of an article.
I read in The Otago Daily Times that the Milton Rifle Club has since closed down because it's members were getting death threats and that those threats had been reported to the police. Some guy who went there, once only, said in a video that they were talking about zombie apocalypse, other violent computer games, and had confederate flags at the site. Whether or not this is true I do not know.
What I do know is that the Australian grandmother of this 28 year old born and bred Australian, who had only been in NZ for 3 years, said that they were shocked and the damage is irreparable and that he spent most of his youth playing video games. He also released his video and manifesto on 8chan that is a really psycho website.
There's an unbalanced amount of international terrorism news articles on most of the media and about refugees and that's creating an unbalanced fear amongst white people who only have the media to rely on for their news sources.
There's lots of good peaceful stuff happening in the world regarding people of all ethnicities and so report that instead of hate and media stirring up all the time.
4
How absurd is it that the US has had fifty mass shooting events this year already? That's 5-0 folks!?! And we have yet to do ANYTHING about gun control. New Zealand gets one last week and they're doing something about it today. Somethings gotta chain 'merica.
Statistics from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019
27
@Conscientious Eater because half of the country are militantly convinced there isn't even a problem, or that the problem really is the people who actually think there is one.
1
In my opinion, I think that a modern society needs to ask itself why it needs all of these guns, particularly assault weapons and high powered handguns. Are the guns needed because society so violent? Or, is society so violent because it has so many guns that can be used? It is impossible to peer into a person’s mind, but if the opportunity did not exist to cause death and destruction, wolf that fact alone make society less susceptible to violence? I believe this is the case and this hypothesis is supported by the statistics that show that countries that have significant limitations on gun ownership also have less gun violence.
As a modern society we must make a decision: Continue to tolerate guns, and with it the mass killings that ensue directly from the opportunity to use them. Or to dramatically reduce ownership, and directly impact the number of people who will die from guns.
It doesn’t take a lot of logic to figure this out. The reason we have so many guns has nothing to do with public safety and everything to do with everything else.
9
A three-day stay, and then later a 43-day stay in Turkey should be a red flag to everyone.
Why would a young, Australian working class guy who has such a problem with Islam that he eventually slaughters 49 people at a mosque first spend 46 days in a country that is 98 percent Muslim?
2
Immediately proposing going after people's guns is simply the Prime Minister being politically pragmatic--it's the easiest thing for her to do, although it doesn't do anything to address the actual problem of WHY things appear to be escalating.
Since so many people predictably conflate New Zealand with the USA in this discussion, only the most hermetically sealed kind of white privilege and security in this country could possibly claim that the police and the military (and the massive private armies wielded by men like Erik Prince) should so absolutely outgun poor and working citizens...
What is happening with the other people involved in this massacre? The male perpetrator appears to be the actual perpetrator. But what about the woman? We do know that women are likely not suspected, least arrested, least convicted, and most likely to be believed when pleading ignorance of involvement in terror attacks. A woman was detained in this matter, so what exactly happened now to exclude her from these official statements?
1
@Dan Holton
A man and a woman were arrested at a police cordon when police found they had a gun. The woman was released and the man will face firearm charges. In NZ you can't just drive around with a gun in the car. Even the police keep theirs locked in a gun case in the boot (trunk). They had nothing to do with the shooting.
One guy was arrested after he turned up to his kid brother's school in full camo gear. When he was asked if he had thought that might cause issues during a lockdown he said "No. Everybody who knows me know I always wear camo." He was given a verbal warning for stupidity.
At some point what becomes obvious is that no-one should have guns. Imagine!
There are countries where gun rules are strict and they do have much less gun violence. Imagine!
Then there are countries where they promote guns like crazy. These have tremendous gun violence. Imagine!
2
"Also on Monday, a teenager charged with creating and distributing objectionable materials made his first appearance in a Christchurch court. Prosecutors say the 18-year-old, whose name and identifying details have been suppressed, published a photo of Al Noor Mosque with the message “Target acquired” a week before the shootings. He did not enter a plea and was remanded into custody until his next court appearance in April.
The police said that they did not believe he was involved in the attack."
Why is the above at the end of the story and not the lead?
2
“The purpose of this inquiry is to look at what all relevant agencies knew — or could or should have known — about the individual and his activities, including his access to weapons,” she said at a news conference in Wellington, the capital."
I do not know what the "magic" answer is to this scenario however, I find Prime Minister Ardern's approach refreshing, encouraging and inspiring. At least she is willing to openly ask and pursue the right questions, the needed questions, and hopefully some concrete answers and future game plans will result.
She is doing more than merely running her mouth. She is taking decisive measures in hopes of eliminating another horrific murder scenario like the one witnessed almost a week ago.
Bravo Prime Minister!
11
@Marge Keller
There isn't much said about how it took the cops 38 minutes to show up.
1
@John
The police showed up after only 6 minutes and the terrorist was caught 30 mins later and arrested without any shots fired.
They did an excellent job and risked their lives to keep Christchurch safe.
2
We should all take a hard look at the content of 8chan and other message boards that create communities of hate. This is where Tarrant (through Facebook), livestreamed his murder performance. Focusing on the weapons he chose to use is a misdirection.
3
The title of this article poses the question: "...New Zealand Asks What it Could Have Done Differently". Then it focuses on how the gunman might have been identified before the crime. This might be a clue to the underlying problem.
One thing we have learned in the United States is that law enforcement can identify thousands of potential perpetrators of hate crimes. But there really isn't much they can do until someone breaks the law. Unless, of course, we are willing to jail people indefinitely for the things they say in public.
Like most of these people, Mr. Tarrant is a sociopath. He has a lot of rage bottled up inside of him. He's been conditioned by violent films, violent video games and violent rhetoric on the internet. He has low self-esteem and feels powerless. And he's never been given a socially acceptable outlet for what he feels.
Doing a Haka war dance might make a lot of students feel better, but it's absolutely the wrong thing to do in this case. Mr. Tarrant, and others like him, feed off making people angry. It gives them a sense of power and is what drives them.
If you want to confront the problem, give people like Mr. Tarrant an outlet. Give them a public forum, but only on the condition that their weapons systems will be non-violence and non-cooperation. I doubt that Mr. Tarrant had ever studied Mohandas K. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, or Gene Sharp and the Albert Einstein Institute. He didn't have any weapons system other than an AR-15.
@W The haka the students (and others) performed were expressions of grief and solidarity, not "war dances."
3
@W A haka isn not a "war dance", it's a ceremonial dance It's an expression of respect. This may explain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI6TRTBZUMM
1
One year after the Breivik attack the prime minister of Norway, Jens Stoltenberg said that "Norway shall not change". And he kept its word. Norway is still free, open, liberal with easy access to country's politicians by anyone, and it is still a country with one of the highest private gun ownership rates in the world. There was no crackdown on "hate speech" either.
It was all because of what Norway already knows: over-reaction and crack-downs, the desire for which is so prevalent in the Anglo culture, actually make things worse not better.
Counter to the conventional Anglo-world wisdom, the liberal criminal justice system of Norway has the lowest recidivism rate in the world, and again, counter to the conventional Anglo-world wisdom, doing nothing after Breivik's attack resulted in extremists becoming completely disinterested in Norway.
The goal of terrorists is to scare countries into changing their ways. If you succumb, you only create an irresistible incentive for more extremists to try and influence your political system through terrorism. You make the life of your citizens miserable with a huge security expense and no real gains in security.
16
Even with one of the highest gun ownership rates, I wonder how strict their laws are in terms of licensing, training, background checks, etc.
6
@Shadow
"The purchase, possession, and use of firearms are tightly controlled in Norway, whose laws and regulations were made more stringent with amendments to the Firearms Act in 2009 and the adoption of new Firearms Regulations in that year. Permission to acquire a firearm must be obtained from the local police chief and is limited to persons of “sober habits” who have reasonable grounds for having a weapon. ... In addition, the National Police Directorate may issue regulations prohibiting the acquisition, ownership, or possession of firearms deemed through their design or operation to be especially dangerous or inappropriate for use.
...
Nearly 10% of Norway’s populace own firearms, which are used chiefly for hunting purposes. The gun laws were apparently not extensively amended in the aftermath of the 2011 massacre in Oslo and on a nearby island in which seventy-seven people were killed, chiefly through the use of firearms; however, the country’s Mental Health Act has been revised to include a new chapter on enhanced security in institutions that accommodate the severely mentally ill or persons at risk for serious violent behavior. "
That puts Norway at 17th in the world in firearms/capita, about 10 times lower than the US.
https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/norway.php
6
@Shadow Except that... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/27/norway-guns-ban-semi-automatic-law Which basically undermines the entire premise of your post.
4
Google, YouTube, FaceBook and Twitter need to do a heck of lot more to close down racist hate sites, vile posts and monitor their platforms. If they refuse, the gov't needs to regulate them full stop as there are too many breeding grounds for terrorists that are being given a free pass. Remove their websites and shut them down. If someone breaks the rules on FB, YouTube, Twitter they need to disable their accounts and ban them from their sites. Be responsible and monitor your platforms no matter the cost or the gov't will do it for you.
4
@kay
The Bill of Rights was intended to establish freedoms citizens have, to limit government overreach. In America, freedom of speech is guarenteed not to be infringed by others, or GOVERNMENT. The right to burn our flag is speech protected. Social media should not establish rules, with the threat of government censorship if they don’t toe an idealological line. Freedom requires minority opinions, even hate groups to express their points of view. If government ever is given the right to censor speech, the most important liberty an individual has will, have been sacrificed to the authority our founders feared most. Not terrorist, but politicians.
5
@Jay
"Social media should not establish rules, with the threat of government censorship if they don’t toe an idealological line."
Google, YouTube, Facebook and Twitter are not the government, nor are they subsidiaries of the government, and nor are they run by the government. They are privately owned companies, and if the owners and governing boards of these companies decide that they want to end hate speech on their sites, they are perfectly entitled to do so because they are private companies and the persistent boogieman spectre of "government overreach" doesn't apply. And should these privately owned companies decide to monitor and censor hate speech and violence their websites, they should not be harassed or threatened by individuals and entities that apparently have limited understanding of the Bill of Rights or the First Amendment.
2
@Jay Unfortunately, our freedom of speech is already being manipulated by government. Just not OUR government.
1
World wide we need to stop the sale of bullets to the crazy public. Only military and police should have the bullets. Sue the gun companies and make them support more regulation not less like the GOP in America. 16 countries a few days ago the NYT's showed had months of waiting for a gun. Not in USA one hour only disgraceful. Blame that on the Republicans who want no regulation in that industry at all . Their sick ideology.
4
@D.j.j.k.
It may surprise you that It takes about six months to qualify to buy a handgun in New York from application to actually possessing the gun. And even then it is up to your local official as to whether you will be given a permit to carry the gun in public or only to have it home and to a practice range. In many places such as NY City, getting a full carry permit is longer and much harder if you can get one at all. Hype is sometimes confused with nuance.
2
@D.j.j.k. Ask Dyma Loving if she thinks that only police should have guns.
It is truly amazing how eager some are to give complete mastery over to police and military, who, wait for it..tend to lean VERY far to the right politically and demographically.
1
@Lilo
I am retired military I know what guns can do and we see it every day in the Times all the massacres. No one in the public should be allowed to buy bullets.
Here's the sign the world should have recognized (and, in fairness, most of the world does): a dottering neofascist from New Zealand's neighbor, Australia, and his news/propaganda network managed to get another dottering neofascist elected president of the US.
As long as the world's leaders fail to point this out, as long as we have leaders that not only condone, but also promote, hatred, this kind of thing will happen.
Our criminal president, just last week, threatened US with violence from "his" military, police, and biker friends. And his Republican confederates continue to defend him.
We can't sink much lower than that.
38
@Justin Unfortunately I think we can indeed sink much, much lower.
3
One aspect of this tragedy with a message for America is the performance of Prime Minister Alderney. She has been calm, genuinely caring, lucid, and communicative. She has not produced a stream of absurd and self-serving tweets. She has reached out to the whole of society, and has not divided her nation. She does not view this catastrophe in terms of her own interests, nor as an opportunity to stir up political support. She is initiating
A careful analysis of what can be done to prevent a recurrence.
This is what competent leadership looks like. God grant that soon the United States will not be led by a lunatic.
69
@Richard Williams MD Amen to that!!!
5
@Richard Williams MD. Ardern. Jacinda Ardern. But that's OK, she is doing an incredible job considering she is being tested like no NZ prime minister has since World War 2.
Thank you for your kind and accurate comment. It's a very difficult time here.
1
There is nothing we can do to prevent all murders by misuse of firearms by deranged individuals. But we can certainly do better. Most reasonable gun owners are behind common sense measures such as background checks, licensing, registration, insurance, etc. We cannot stop every madman but we can certainly do better than what we have now in the US which is basically a free for all. One massacre and New Zealand is already examining what can we do better. We have these sorts of shootings on a monthly basis and we do nothing because dollars before lives in America.
23
@Deb Yeah, but why are there *so many* deranged individuals? Surely we can do something to figure out why mass murderers are spreading like roaches. Is it a fad? Are they really crazy? Do they want fame? Why don't they just vote or participate in non-violent demonstrations? They apparently think other methods are not effective. They have somehow, perhaps through video games, acquired a taste for spectacular public displays of violence. ... Why bother to send people to Mars if we can't get people to live together on our home planet? They're just going to continue the craziness throughout the universe.
1
@Deb How about zero guns! It’s about time folks!
Young men like this gunman are no different from the young men recruited to fight "the infidel" for ISIS and the like. They are all "misguided youths" turned terrorists. They all seem to have dysfunctional relationships with women. They all seem to comfort themselves with violent video games and in conversations with like-minded individuals in the scary dark corners of the internet. They all seem to be obsessed with the accouterments of the military and war. I'm coming around to the opinion that we need to create safe spaces for these men to slaughter each other voluntarily, like in some dystopian sci-fi young adult novel or video game.
24
It's what's next that counts. I think we would recommend sending in the emergency ' thoughts and prayers team' so that tangible action on guns could be forestalled
16
I personally think Facebook and other social media companies should have alerted the authorities when this terrorist wrote the post. I think he should have been arrested as the intent was there and sentenced to life behind bars. Call me harsh but this type need people need to locked away for life.
9
@Adam
The post you speak of was published just a few minutes before the shooting started. Facebook is probably not at fault (for once!). We cannot rely only on digital discoveries to know who is a terrorist, or mentally damaged. A 28-year old buying five military assault rifles? Society has a right to question that, and say "No."
4
New Zealand Prime Minister Ardern has announced that reforms will be announced within 10 days of this tragedy, and the shooting range has already been closed in the meantime.
Donald Trump and the rest of the NRA-silenced GOP should learn from Prime Minister Ardern's leadership - because thoughts and prayers, and helping the NRA sell even more guns, are killing nearly 40,000 people a year in the United States.
56
@common sense advocate
I concur csa. There is much our leaders could learn from the constructive actions and leadership demonstrated by New Zealand Prime Minister Ardern. I am not certain how successful she will be, but at least she is taking action rather than sitting on her hands, mute and unengaged.
8
@Marge Keller - absolutely! To show why our politicians refuse to take action in the US after mass shootings, politicians funded by the NRA should have the funding amount listed after every one of their names in shooting news coverage. For example: Donald Trump ($11.4 million/NRA), Marco Rubio ($3.3 million/NRA) and Joni Ernst ($3.1 million/NRA)
2
@common sense advocate
How that cannot be seen as anything less than blood money is beyond me.
3
Here's an idea. In seemingly random locations, install metal detecting passageways that alert well-placed security officials who might then have 30 seconds to respond to a targeted attack.
5
@Marty Rowland, Ph.D., P.E. Metal detectors don't just sense guns...this would have an abysmal rate of false positives. I, for one, wouldn't want to be swarmed by a SWAT team because I was wearing a belt that day.
3
That still wouldn’t stop someone from shooting a military-style assault rifle from a distance.
1
@Marty Rowland, Ph.D., P.E. I've a knee replacement. Sets detectors off every time. Metal replacement joints are extremely common and becoming more so with time. First responders are going to be very busy.
1
Whenever a major traumatic event occurs, there is a powerful impulse for people to believe that something could and should have been done about it. The word must be orderly enough for that. But often even the most dramatic occurrences have no obvious measures that could be taken to avert them.
With complicated policies such as gun control, there are always measures that could be taken around the edges. And they should be pursued. But wholesale overturning of polities that have worked well on the whole would be a mistake on the basis of a single incident, no matter how terrible.
We must avoid the reasoning that pronounces: "Something has to be done about this." "This is something." Therefore this needs to be done."
2
@ERP There is no legitimate reason for personal ownership and use of assault rifles and pistols in a modern, stable, democratic society. At the very least, magazines capable of more than 7 rounds should be banned. Such weapons are for war or to stop civil insurrections and should be restricted to the military and the police. The NRA may conjure up patriots needing to use such weapons to defend themselves from government or invaders but this is pure fantasy. Moreover, a government or an invader willing to attack innocent people would be quite willing to unleash hell on those folks armed only with personal weapons.
21
@Alan Mass So you are willing to circumscribe other people's right to self-defense? No thanks.
Please read the below to understand why magazine capacity limits don't work-and yes they were tried before.
https://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/
1
The public safety threat does not come only from semiautomatic rifles, 'military style' or not.
All self-loading, semiautomatic firearms (pistols, shotguns and rifles) that can take a high-capacity magazine, or be modded to do so, should be highly restricted.
Better to promote six-bullet snub-nosed revolvers, double-barrelled manually-loaded shotguns, single-action/bolt-action rifles.
The primary threat to human safety is a thirty-round removable magazine that can be quickly swapped over for another. A thirty-round magazine is not bulky or heavy. A fit, strong shooter can carry several on him.
The second threat is the semiautomatic self-loading nature of the firearm. Every squeeze of the trigger releases a new bullet. Part of the energy of the hot gas of the combustion of the charge is used to push out the brass cartridge and push home a fresh round. This applies equally to semiautomatic hand-guns and to semiautomatic long-arms such as rifles and shotguns.
If the human target is not wearing body armour then a volley of .22 bullets fired from a semiautomatic pistol at ten metres will still do tremendous damage, ricocheting off bones, ploughing through soft tissues, including vital organs and blood vessels.
In fact, because a low-mass bullet such as a .22 from a semiautomatic hand-gun has a lower muzzle velocity, less momentum, less kinetic energy, it's less likely to pass through the human body, more likely to bounce around internally, ripping apart vital structures.
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@Colenso that is a great, graphic illustration of the physics of firearms and ballistics, but not sure you're providing much info that isn't already known or easily learned. A similar description could be provided for how a weaponized appliance (pressure cooker) or recklessly driven automobile inflicts damage, in all of the grisly details
We need to start recognizing that fundamentally, these events are people problems, not technological ones.
4
This killing is one more link in the chain connecting men and violent reactions to social change. It is, after all, only men who do this. Why are men willing and eager to do so? The inescapable answer is that they feel lost in a world that is changing under their feet, and which they were raised to believe they should be able to control.
When something as ingrained as misogyny, which is baked into so many cultures around the world, begins to change, the effects will play out in fraught episodes like these. As we’ve seen, individuals, who desperately feel lost when the beliefs they were raised to expect as ordained turn out to be fragile, will sometimes lash out in a desperate attempt to validate their agency. What other than a damaged sense of self would impel someone to seek such a theatrical and bloody forum?
I’m not sure how avoidable this sort of carnage is, or if it is even possible to calm a soul that feels so fundamentally threatened. At the least, we should recognize it for what it is. Despite the dangers, we desperately need to work through this fraught period and, over time, help men become less dangerous.
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@Marshall Doris
I agree. According to the shooter's published manifesto, however, this was an attack on Sunni Muslims in Christchurch primarily to avenge the murder by Da'esh of a Swedish girl in the 2017 Stockholm truck murders.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Stockholm_truck_attack
About 1% of human males, whom we call psychopaths, are hardwired to act violently, commit revenge attacks, are easily bored, seek out novelty. They are cold-blooded, callous, and calculating. They feel no shame, experience no guilt, express no regret.
On MRIs, the brains of male psychopaths are different to normal males, especially in the amygdala. Psychopaths are born not made. There is no cure, no treatment. Psychopaths are thrill seekers. They respond only to rewards. They are relatively bold and fearless, indifferent to punishment.
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@Marshall Doris White women owned slaves and taught and raised white men who did the same. German women cheered on Hitler. Jewish women serve in the IDF and brutalize Palestinian children. In short there is no evil that any man ever commits that isn't supported by some woman some place.
Trying to speak as if these issues are only problems of one gender and not problems of bad ideologies will cause us to miss a lot of bad actors.
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@Colenso
Seeking revenge for murder of the Swedish, read “white” girl, strikes me as checking a lot of the fantasy “I am going to be a male hero” boxes.
I realize this tragedy must be reported on, but this murderer wanted attention. He wanted to be famous for hate, and for killing. His name should be left out of all news and articles. I do not care about this person.
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@AE That's why the judge ordered his face be pixilated and blurred in all the court appearance photos. He's a walking clone of that white terrorist in Norway, Breivik, as he has sacked his lawyer and is going to defend himself in court. He also smirked at the cameras and gave a Nazi salute, just like Breivik did when he appeared before a Judge. I wish the court case wasn't public as we have to put up with this buffed up buffoon spouting his theories to the media at any opportunity he gets. I hate the thought that he gets so much attention from media.
5
Hindsight is always 20/20. Foresight is always very poor.
The question, "What could have been done differently?" has one realistic answer. Ban guns.
We don't invoke predictive powers in any other field. People resort to talking about "red flags" in order to avoid addressing the gun problem.
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It happens, especially in these times. Locking down the citizens because one of their members goes over the edge with his pathological behavior is not the answer, but vigilance is and awareness that the world is a dangerous place, just not the Middle East where people die in sectarian violence every day.
1
NZ is showing more compassion than the President of the United States of America? I'm ashamed.
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@SweetestAmyC Ashamed, but no longer surprised.
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Reflection is is very useful. But when we do we should resist thinking that there were signs that what happened was inevitable were overlooked. It’s a form of fallacious reasoning that is often called second guessing, Monday morning quarterbacking, or hindsight is 20/20. The signs that have a certain meaning after looking back at them in the context of an event, still may not offer that certainty apart from the context of that event.
3
From what i read, New Zealand must be a good place to live.
In addition, their citizens chose a good woman as prime minister and the right person to run their country.
My hope is that some day, we'll learn from New Zealand who is already changing their gun laws after just a few days of this incident,
Our country is like a huge ocean liner that is very hard to turn around. Just keeps moving toward the "iceberg" with announcements every few minutes by our captain Trump who is angry with everybody on the ship but is of no help, himself.
Sounds like fiction but it's closer to a true story.
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Don't worry about it New Zealand. The world is going to have many of these events and that isn't even the worst of what the future holds. People will get accustomed to the new death rates because they will have to.
Maybe we should all pray to a made up deity in the sky and magic will just happen.
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@Chris... even better, they will take a pro active stance on their gun laws and change the way things operate in their country... you only have to pray to a made up deity when you know you're going to do nothing else.
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#thoughtsandprayers
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New Zealand can play an important role in gun control efforts by providing a model for effective gun control that does no harm to gun owners. This article mentioned a concern that semi-automatic rifles may not be critical for hunting or target practice, achieving its most important role in mass shootings. Another thing they should look at are military style weapons, e.g. the AR15 used in the latest massacre. The focus should be the ability of high muzzle velocity rifles to kill human beings. This is not a bug, but rather the major feature for which these guns were designed. Discussing the relative lethality of military weapons, high powered sniper rifles and shotguns, as well as their utility for mass shooters, is an important conversation that has not been possible in some countries, such as the US.
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@WHM
As far as the USA is concerned, what is the purpose of the second amendment? (It's not just to recruit a militia.)
New Zealand would be similar since their laws and culture are based on English civilization, just like the USA, where the right for private citizens to be armed goes back 1,000 years.
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@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus I dont get your suggestion. It is certainly the case that US and NZ history supports the right to be armed. If the purpose of that is to resist government oppression, then it could be reasonable to have devastating weapons, designed to kill humans. On the other hand, US law specifically limits access to machine guns, mortars and hand grenades. If second amendment rights are sympathetic to resisting government oppression, it makes no sense to forbid the type of weapons any military would use to put down insurrection. This is where the arguments about second amendment rights get tricky. The right to hunt, protect your home and target practice does not protect the lowest level military weapons, those used consistently by mass shooters. Thus, defending AR15s for the public is a bit tricky. They are not effective enough to take on real soldiers and they are not needed for hunting or sport shooting. If one were to design a weapon optimized for mass shootings, but less useful for other needs, one would probably design the AR15. I can suggest a compromise, outlaw all military style semi-automatic weapons and allow rocket propelled grenades, useful for guerrilla attacks on real soldiers but little used in mass shootings.
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@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus
There is no English-speaking country with gun laws like the United States. The gun laws in Britain are far, far stricter than the U.S.
The same can be said of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It's not that a person can't obtain a gun. It is that the conditions and standards to obtain one are much more stringent. New Zealand might have lax laws when compared to Britain, but the requirements that they already have would be non-starters for a large number of 2nd Amendment advocates. The link below shows the requirements for a New Zealander to obtain a gun which typically takes a few weeks. Compare this with much of the U.S. where the requirements are very simple: go to a gun shop; have in instant background; if no issues, then purchase gun. Total time from start to finish: one hour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_licence_(New_Zealand)
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The somber faces of secondary school students marching in New Zealand inspired me. Yet there was not one word about students or their protests on behalf of their Muslim classmates. As a Fulbright Specialist in Multicultural Education, I would like to see an article on how schools in New Zealand and Australia integrate Mutuculutural Education in their curriculums- or not. As one of my students at Chiang Mai University in Thailand said, «tolerance is a very low level of Multicultural Education. ». Is New Zealand, if not Australia, not even at the level of tolerance?
@Wendy, I never lived in New Zealand. However, I visited the country and lived in Australia for more than a year. I had a pleasant surprise on how respectful people were in general in both countries. I think of this terrorist as an anomaly, since the younger the people I met, the more tolerant they were and less bounded to racial profiling. I hope they can fulfill my impression and make it more than an expectation in the new gun laws that can mirror what Australia himself did after the Port Arthur massacre of 1996.
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Wendy, I confess I have struggled to follow your post. Those school children would have been of a wide range of ethnicities and religions (if any at all - many New Zealanders have no religious affiliation). I live in Auckland which is the home of over one third of the country’s population. Auckland’s population has over 200 ethnicities. Several years ago it was identified as the fourth most multicultural city on Earth. Neither New York nor Los Angeles comes near it in that respect. And as it is home to a third of New Zealand’s population its make up is nationally significant. Come down and visit us sometime and you will be able to see for yourself. It’s a far from perfect nation, but we work hard on self-improvement.
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@Wendy
I struggle to understand the point of your post.
Hundreds of students, some directly affected by this tragedy, from all walks of life and all ethnicities came together to honour those killed in a deeply moving and uniquely Polynesian way of performing a Haka. A Haka that was, I noticed, led by a female student (until recently Māori tradition was they could be performed by men).
And your complaint is because you couldn't see protest signs, this means they are culturally intolerant?
1
Did France change their gun laws after the terror attacks in Paris?
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No government can take away firearms from people, they'll revolt and use their stupid guns against the government. If sensible legislators would just take away semi-automatic weapons of mass destruction from people, many of these cruel attacks would not happen.
There is no need for everyday people to own them.
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