Why isn't the FAA adequately funded in order to do its job? This isn't regulatory capture so much as it's regulatory give away. The US throws so much money at military armament and outside contractors, yet it can't keep the flying public safe, it won't maintain and rebuild infrastructure, and it doesn't adequately fund education. Why don't we put our taxes to work to keep us safe in the air and on the ground, and to properly educate our populace? We're so busy destroying things elsewhere we don't seem to realize we're falling into ruin here at home.
20
call your daddy trump but dont put in an autopilot over-ride button to let humans fly the plane when the machine is trying to kill everyone. its just one button, Boeing!! you had 5 months to do this even after you knew the plane was faulty to begin with otherwise why was training needed? and if we ever trusted our government to look out for us before, remember who has been dismantling the government protections for the last 2 years with a pro-industry anti-consumer cabinet.
10
Has the CEO been on the phone to the families of the victims or just pathetically whining to Trump?
11
The Douglas Aircraft Corporation had "full confidence" in the aft cargo door of the DC-10.
5
In the United States, when it comes to safety, our commercial 737 Pilots have the final say. Not Congress. Not Trump. Not the FAA… our pilots have the final say!
Aircraft Mechanics and Airlines can ground planes. The FAA can ground planes as well.
For anyone to suggest that the FAA is comprised of 100% Republicans just doesn't know what they are talking about. (For the NYT to imply/suggest/infer that Boeing's call to the President somehow influenced all of the registered Democrats employed at the FAA is irresponsible.)
I have flown planes, sat right-seat many times and have over a thousand flights as a passenger... I have even skydived close to a thousand times (USPA Master Skydiver).
In addition, I have had to bail out of two airplanes as has my spouse who has been in a plane crash. Heck, my father, father in-law and brother in-law built/designed Boeing aircraft In addition, I know Delta 737 pilots and have received training from them!
After reading the negative comments by people, I can say with 100% certainty that most people know absolutely ZILCH about the industry!
I would not hesitate to fly on 737 Max 8 or any aircraft in the 737 family... but that's just me. I have more important things to worry about!
With my background, experience and training in the aviation industry, I have 100% confidence with our US Pilots, their training, including the airlines they fly for!
Now with that said, I do not have that confidence with third world airlines!
1
@The Critic...two crashes within 5 months, same airplane, apparently the same problem. Your experience in skydiving clearly didn't inform you on VERY simple statistical analysis. The hard data calls for a completed investigation of the Ethiopian incident and, if necessary a fix, before this model should fly again. Maybe the third world software is the problem, not the third world pilot.
10
If these aircraft are so safe the president, the head of the FAA, and the Secreatary of Transportation should all be flying on them for at least the next several months. If US passengers should risk life and limb in these planes, so should these gov't officials.
9
Trump is an expert on everything: forest management, single-handed diplomacy, security clearances, using Putin as intelligence source, how to catch a woman, bankruptcies, gangland tactics, and now airline safety....when are we going to impeach and jail this fraud?
6
So two plane crashes, killing 346 innocent victims in a matter of months apparently doesn’t meet the criteria to qualify as an emergency, but the (fake) crisis along our southern border does?
8
U.S. is perhaps using its privileges as 'exceptionalism' commands...
3
the chief of should be flying that jet exclusively for one year to show "confidence." the cheif should do so with pilots of the same capabilities as the the ones who had trouble.
3
Maybe the Planes are Safe, but What do we lose by grounding them? Oh Money, and if they are Not safe what do we lose Lifes. I understand Boeing is planing to make some kind of software adjustment by the end of April that is causing the Nose to go down when in outo pilot. So for precaucation one would think the right thing to do is to ground the jets till that software correction is made. Oh but that may mean a lose of Profits how Stupid of me.
6
Agree the political handling of this safety issue will prove to be scandalous and inept.Hopefully, the NSTB will unearth the truth...pilot error theory or is it the software/AI over-riding the pilots to resolve the stalled engine issue or something else...no one in their right mind in US should get on one of these planes until this gets resolved....Hopefully this article and the comments will help US residents make the right decision for any upcoming flights - check ahead to find out the plane being used, and cancel that 737 max 8 flight...
3
We are flying on a Boeing 737 Max 800 on March 31ts from Miami to San Francisco. I have called American Airlines about this specific plane. At this time, they have decided not to change their position that these particular planes are "safe". If we wish to change this flight there will be a charge to change the flight and a "magical" seat difference price as well. The final chuztpah is that this flight will be about three hours longer as well. The only way to avoid this hazardous situation is to pay for it, so American! It's also astonishing to realize that the FAA, Boeing, and our Congress work so closely together to profit from the American dollar, not so much the safety of the flying public.
7
Clearly, lobbying and money considerations are keeping the 737 Max 8 in the air in the US (only). Surprisingly, Boeing share prices have only dropped about 15% since the second crash.
But Boeing should consider - what if a third crash happens? It would necessarily be a US crash because all others have grounded the plane. if you think you think you have a problem on your hands now, that will be utter disaster for your company!
I think anyone with even a modest amount of prudence will refuse to fly on this plane until this issues - software, airspeed sensor, autopilot system, pilot training, and whatever else - are completely, resolutely fixed.
5
"Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators 'will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action' if a safety issue arises."
Um-m-m-m, call me a nervous Nellie but haven't the safety issues already arisen at the cost of 350-ish human lives?
13
Yesterday, I asked my sister-in-law when they return from Mexico. Her reply? “Saturday, if we don’t crash. We’re on a 737 Max 8.”
The airline industry has chiseled away at seat width and leg room and bathroom size and in-flight amenities until their lack of concern for passenger comfort is incontestable. Un-full flights are cancelled with no explanation —stranding ticketed passengers on now-overbooked subsequent flights.
It is clear another American industry is being driven solely by short-term profits. No wonder the public trust has been seriously eroded. How are Boeing stockholders faring from these decisions?
8
Something is definitely wrong. The US is the lone holdout among all the nations of the world, in not grounding the Boeing 737 Max 8.
Its safety is at best abysmal, it is also an untenable situation that is creating fear and loathing in the passengers of airlines all over the world. The nations of the world have completely closed their airspace to the Boeing 737 Max 8. These nations will not allow the Boeing 737 Max 8 to transit through their airspace. They're being cautious in the face continued accidents. The Civilian Aviation Authorities of all the other nations of the world, have decided that an abundance of caution is better than more aviation accidents.
I'm wondering why the FAA won't ground Boeing's 737 Max 8, it is by all that I can figure, a money situation. Since Boeing is a major military supplier, it is my thinking going forward, that the FAA will not ground these civilian planes. When and if they do ground the 737 Max 8 it will be an economic decision as well as a safety decision.
4
Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises.
What safety issue would be be enough to ground the planes?
Another crash with all the passengers killed?
11
Hey, NYT, how about a list of which airlines have the 737 Max 8s?
7
@P NYT has provided and been updating the list : https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/11/world/boeing-737-max-which-airlines.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage&fbclid=IwAR2VTtYi7qSSlLPBjUNMNdArFkPnZddsddradYpxLPQSvaEIJzJQdoLS2Vg
2
OK. I get it. It's up to ME to act on the facts.
Sorry American and Southwest.
Ya' lost my business.
9
If you’re so comcerned about your safety what’s $300 to you?
@Edward: Spoken like someone who doesn't have to scrimp and save to book a flight to visit family during high-priced school breaks.
4
Boeing digs it is own media grave , how stupid these CEO and their ilk is.
Associating themselves with Trump and trying bribe him out from this crisis, instead working with NTSB , they are trying to influence and suppress NTSB.
Whose in charge for media relations of Boeing.
Honestly I wasn't expecting this move , after this I can assure you this will stink very badly on Boeing's reputation.
This is like Volkswagen emitting cheating scandal, with this move Boeing assuring us they are aware of this problem and they wing it instead of solving the problem.
I hope I am wrong but this news piece is very unsettling.
5
"Better to sell one plane than save hundreds if not thousands of human lives." GOP Greed Machine Motto
3
Oh American corruption, know you know bounds? Why would you when you installed the most corrupt imbecile this country has ever seen as a "President?"
I'm glad I don't fly often. I feel sorry for everyone whose lives are being risked to line Dennis Muilenburg's pockets.
3
‘Too Big to Ground.’
2
Please, oh, please let Boeing design the next Air Force One!!!
3
@MikeP
The violence of the Left.
@MikeP...Haven't y'all eard? There will be no more airplanes Flying around the US when y'all sweep the elections in 2020. The new prez will be riding the new high speed rail system, which right now is scheduled to connect Bakersfield and Merced sometime before the next glaciation sets in.
Flying on these planes now is Russian roulette.
2
It is sad that so many here don't want to try to understand the truth about the differences b/t the two crashes.
https://www.thisisinsider.com/difference-ethiopian-airlines-lion-air-crashes-2019-3
1
@James--that's even worse. If the same plane keeps falling out of the sky, you'd at least hope for just one flaw. You're telling us there are others? RUN...............................!
1
1. Our president is an idiot.
2. This corruption is exact;y what reagan and the republicans intended to set free with de-regulation.
3. Bowing should have been under investigation and all of these planes grounded as soon as we learned they had a secret program they never told anyone about running on this plane when the first one went down in Indonesia. What else have they got going on here that they are not telling anyone about?
5
What would you expect from Trump, no Einstein in this Oval Office, then we have Elaine Chao, Mitch McConnell's wife who is bought a paid for by lobbyists.
One would think it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ground these Boeing Airplanes until a full, review and fix has been done without any doubts for the safety of whoever is flying on these particular planes.
There are many things to point to with Donald Trump as to his unfitness of office, this is just the most recent thing, lets face it happens on a daily occurrence and has almost made it a norm for his Presidency, I only fear it will have worn people down so much, they will get confused and think this is normal for all Presidents.
Only Donald Trump, this total imbecile, could take away from what Nancy Pelosi said regarding his impeachment as a compliment.
When you combine this with his comments on airplane safety, Trump sounds like the dumbest moron in the world, and it defies belief that this idiot is our President.
2
if the 737 Max is safe, let Trump use it for flights to and from Mar-a-Lago. Accompanied by the Boeing CEO, and Secretary Chao and her adorable husband.
Heck, invite all the Trump department heads along with Presidents Kim and Putin.
Make America Great Again.
6
GM refused to recall then replace a faulty .75¢ switch in their death trap cars.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/10/3/18073458/gm-car-recall
Doing so would have cut into executive bonuses.
And you think Boeing executives are going to ground an entire fleet of crashing planes, and then fix the problem, when its just easier to trick our mentally unbalanced president and his base of paste eaters.
1
Time for a good old fashioned House oversight committee investigation of ties between Boeing, Trump, Trump's Secretary of Transportation (Elaine Chao), and her husband, Senator Mitch McConnell, who took a $7500 political contribution from Boeing in the 2018 election cycle (http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.php?cycle=2018&cmte=C00142711).
Let me write the first question for Rep Cummings to ask Senator Mitch McConnell (under oath and via subpoena, if necessary)-
Senator McConnell, how much does the fact that you're a recipient of thousands of dollars of PAC money from Boeing impact your wife's decision to, unlike many other countries, allow Boeing's 737 Max-8 to continue to operate in US airspace?
5
Mulenberger calls in a favor from the Don.
1
Boeing media relations looks like the same as White house media relation.
I cannot imagine they are handling this issue going behind NTSB and mingling with Trump to pressure NTSB.
This is absolutely idiotic.
1
“Drop dead, America”
Trump-GOP 2019
Grand Old Profit
Nice GOPeople
3
Forty-Two countries, including Canada and counting, have grounded the 737 Max 8. The US is definitely putting profit ahead of people.
5
@Oliver
Trump Assured Boeing , Plane is safe, relax!!!!
‘Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises.’
What Mrs McConnell means is that if a plane crashes in the US, they will set a date to talk about it.
I called my daughter and told her to cancel her SW flight. I bought her a DElta ticket because she is precious to me.
11
This isn't a court of law, where you are innocent until proven guilty. This is an extremely high-tech mode of transportation which apparently has taken much of the decision making out of the hands of trained pilots and put it into the brain of a computer.
With more than 300 deaths on its hands in two similar disasters, Boeing and its Max aircraft should be considered guilty until proven innocent. Just another example of big business buying its way into government decision making.
Some people are afraid of growing socialism in government. I'm afraid of growing business influence in government, where the bottom line is profit, plain and simple.
9
where ever we have a trump involved it will always be about "the money". even if all boeing max are grounded, trump will still hold hands with boeing. after all, what's a small design feature gone wrong? the answer must be just a tiny bit more software. that is until all pilots have learned the latest inflight corrections.
5
“He told me very strongly that the airplane—which is very beautiful and comes in many colors, which a lot of people do not know—is extremely safe. Very strongly he told me that. And I found him very believable. Very strongly believable. I will tell you that.”
23
Boeing, the FAA and Trump are, effectively, betting that the 737 Max crashes weren't caused by malfunctions in the planes themselves. If they're wrong, they lose their reputations and Boeing loses millions or billions of dollars. High stakes gambling.
6
@PeterE and Boeing, for sure knows the truth
I get it: Elect a Clown, Expect a Circus. And I get that a circus is, by definition, full of entertaining distractions.
But with 2020 fast approaching--thankfully--we need to remember that the FAA that approved Boeing's 737 MAX 8, the operating manual, and the directive that pilots would not require costly, time-consuming new training was Obama's FAA, not Trump's FAA.
Maybe we need to ferret out neo-liberals with the same tenacity that we rinse ourselves of clowns and their circuses.
4
A suggestion to Muilenburg: You, your family, your board of directors, and their families all hop on 737 - 8 Max and fly around the world.
If they are safe, no worries.
5
Pop quiz for you, Mr. Dennis A. Muilenburg, CEO of Boeing:
Are you comfortable flying your loved ones and family members on these specific planes?
Let's ask him and see what he says. What do you all think?
5
Boeing is literally PART of the FAA, and a massive lobbyist in DC. I'm sure the FAA and our esteemed lawmakers are protecting us first and foremost.......right?
Sleep tight, America.
6
The politics around this stink to high heaven. In light of the record of the software flaws in the Max 8 causing catastrophic crashes, the FAA's decision to permit the fleet to continue flying is criminal. Congress needs to investigate this -- stinks of corruption!
3
Corruption pure and simple. The Trump oligarchy has always been toxic and is now deadly.
Those who oppose this administration must rise above the dog whistle issues these cretins hope will splinter and defeat us. There is no option but organizing together and taking focused action to defeat the Trumpist cancer in our Republic. Blue 2020.
While we’re at it, please dump Boeing stock if you have it, and refuse to fly their 737 Max 8-9 aircraft. This hits Boeing profits - yay! We’re looking to book no Boeing aircraft if at all possible. Airbus is our vehicle of choice.
5
@Julie B...Enjoy your carbon footprint as you jet around on Airbus, because after Blue 2020 y'all won't be flying on ANY brand of airliner over the friendly socialist skies of America. Don't despair though, soon y'all can "jet" around on the shiny new high-speed rail system destined to a roared into a depot near you. In the meantime, hike out to Merced and wait for the Blue Streak to sail in from Bakersfield. Don't forget to pack a lunch. It's running behind schedule just a bit.
God Bless America(n capitalism)
and God protect passengers on Boeing 737s.
1
Well, Trump fell in love with Kim and Putin, so now I guess he's in love with Muilenburg too, and pleasing his bromance partners is paramount and superior to protecting the public.
3
The USA does not care who it hurts anymore. It is all about the money! Whether it is climate change, the opioid epidemic, planes with faulty technology, seniors or children from other countries, nothing matters anymore. There is no moral compass in the USA anymore.
8
I wish Boeing had kept working during the Government shutdown to solve the glitch. Their new system will have multiple sensors to determine what is going on.
1
FYI, United is also flying the Max. The article mentions that just Southwest and American fly but I have flown on the Max multiple times with United over the past several months.
4
Boeing promised the next batch of Air Force One planes will be cheaper than planned.
What could go wrong?
4
Well if a plane goes down in the US you can be sure it will be blamed on a “terrorist” rather than Boeing taking responsibility.
8
Self regulation is an oxymoron.
15
Shareholders and profits come first instead of lives in this country. This is serious. Canada started grounding the planes also. Lets not become an embarrasement once again
6
@Sam Y...Canada has very strict immigration laws - just like all advanced countries. By all means, what is good for Canada is good for US. God bless the Queen.
These planes will likely be grounded because people are going to vote with their pocketbooks not to fly on them. I certainly won't get on one of these.
22
There's a software engineer out there that knows exactly what the problem is, who else knows, and when they knew it. Never been a better time to use the NYTimes Tip Line. The world needs more whistleblowers.
26
Simple solution: refuse to buy a ticket to fly a Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft until the FAA, Boeing, and the European regulators completely recertify the aircraft as safe.
7
@Tom...All of these agencies previously certified the 737. Why in the world would you trust the same agencies again?
Too bad we don't have a president that can stand up to a major executive and say: sorry, I'm not going to do what is in the best interest of your company. I am going to protect the American people!
13
Like the world is going to trust Boeing after seeking Trump's stamp of confidence? NO WAY.
12
The US government, including all regulatory agencies, proves once again that it exists not for citizens but rather for the moneyed interests. Call the class action lawyers.
8
The US citizens are too weak to demand results from their government. It seems that nearly everyone enjoys being a serf and loves their overlords. Many think it is better to live the life supplied by a cruel master than to be responsible for ones own outcomes.
Stop flying and stop being so cowed. The airlines deserve to go bankrupt.
4
Mr. Trump takes the word of dictators as truth. So there's no surprise he takes the word of the industrial world's equivalent.
11
The only way Boeing takes this seriously in the US is if people booked to fly on these planes all cancel their flights and refuse to book any flight on these planes until they have been fixed. But people will not do that, so more people will die unnecessarily. But as long as Boeing keeps making bank, who cares, right? Pro-life until birth.
8
Boeing should study how J&J dealt so successfully and transparently with the Tylenol cyanide poisonings, regaining confidence after a similar setback by pulling all Tylenol off the shelves and reinventing the packaging.
7
Now we know that our president prefers huge companies make huge profits, over the lives of a mere few hundred humans, American and others. Thanks, Republicans, for your continuing support of this individual.
2
@kw, nurse
NOW ? We’ be always known that this buffoon only worries about his pockets and those of his cronies. Vote them out and LOCK THEM UP ! !
2
Boeing’s CEO goes to Mar a Lago late last year to chat with Donald. Post chat “all is fine”
Boeing refuses to recommend proper training when Max 8 released - concerned that pilot training too expensive and would reduce the sales of their new model, 737 Max 8, which is now the best selling aircraft in history. (FAA advisors are working within Boeing so no problem!)
FAA STILL has no Senate approved leader. (Well ar least Trump’s personal pilot didn’t get the job back in 2017, right?)
Trump concerned that piliots need to be “Albert Einstein” to fly planes. (no comment...).
Boeing drags feet on supposed ‘fix’ for this issue - which never should have arisen if proper design and/or training were there - and even THIS SW update is delayed by trump’s government shutdown of 5 weeks which was entirely avoidable.
More innocents die.
We need a congressional hearing NOW on this critical issue, including proper funding and leadership of FAA.
I will be contacting my congressional leaders about this issue, including the need for immediate hearings and action. Please do the same if you agree.
9
Remember how the Boeing CEO ingratiated himself with Trump. Did it seem suspicious that Muilenburg was even allowed to sit in on a call to competitors made by the general in charge of the F-35? Now that Trump's bias may be jeopardizing lives, It might be interesting to get testimony under oath from Muilenburg about the nature of discussions w/ Trump.
9
Trump has put our government, our foreign relations, our trade policies, indeed our entire democracy into a nose dive since taking office. Why should a plane bother him?
5
This is what happens when you allow the foxes to guard the hen house.
7
'Mr. Trump raised concerns that the increasing use of technology in airplanes was compromising passenger safety. “Airplanes are becoming far too complex to fly,” he wrote on Twitter. “Pilots are no longer needed, but rather computer scientists from MIT.”' And Individual-1 knows about complexity; being the perfect example of the Dunning- Mueller effect (ignorant of his own incompetence).
'Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises.' Doesn't the current "safety issue" of (2) 737 Max jets crashing almost nose down vertically (Lion Air and Ethiopian Air) identify a life-threatening issue? Does a third 737 Max need to crash on the continental US to constitute a "safety issue"?Elaine Chao cares for Americans transportation as her husband, Mitch McConnell cares about the Constitution.
There is little relief in the knowledge FAA safety representatives work for Boeing, are paid by Boeing, and have offices at Boeing. Who do they represent?
The "software fix" is of course fixing: the previous "software fix" which accompanied the introduction of the 737 Max to correct the tendency for the plane to assume a stall when climbing. Hmmm. Could it be the 'safety' stall correction 'system' is over correcting placing the plane in a dive automatically? Sure seems like it.
2
Boeing's Muilenburg called Trump to express confidence in the Boeing jets that pilots say are having a nose dive problem.
Muilenburg is pleading for the stockholders so they aren't deprived of one dollar in profits and he could care less about saving lives.
5
I’d like to know how much, in addition to the $1,000,000.00 contribution to President Trump, Boeing has contributed to Sec. Eaine Chiao’s husband, Senator Mitch McConnell. How come this isn’t reported?
5
Yet more evidence that in Trump's America, any job is a good job and any business that supplies job is a good business—even if the product kills people.
1
Wish I hadn't accumulated all those American Miles! AA seems to be digging its own grave...
2
I see a lot of Southwest flights are upgrading you to first class the past few days... Wonder how much of a difference it makes diving down in 'luxury' to your death on one of their 31 planes being 737 Max. I know I am voting with my purse and not booking with any of the airlines who are flying them, leaving me with more legs and more $ to spend, but worth it.
5
Something about this situation doesn't make sense. Boeing is already exposed for liability in the deaths of over 300 passengers due to highly probable defects in the autopilot system and inadequate pilot training. What legal counsel in his right mind would not tell the management of a major corporation to take immediate measures to limit future exposure and liability? If one more of these planes comes down, and Boeing has held fast to its position, it is conceivable they could be held criminally liable for additional deaths.
Someone, somewhere is making a business calculation that the likelihood of another accident and additional exposure to liability is less expensive than forcing airlines to park these planes. Already Norwegian Airlines has said that Boeing owes them money because of the grounding of these new aircraft. It's a deplorable thought, but major corporations have created this image fro themselves, that human lives are a legitimate variable in the cost/benefit calculus.
I can think of no other reason why Boeing and the FAA would not ground these planes for the week it will take to analyze the black boxes.
12
I do not see how anyone will be held criminally liable if FAA approved the flights.
@Jim There are several laws that can limit airline liability for ordinary negligence, such as the Federal Aviation Act and the Warsaw Convention. The general limit is $75,000 per person, which is chump change for Boeing as the total damages for the two crashes, with ordinary negligence, comes to $22,500,000. With such limits there is no reason for any airline to be overly upset by any crash killing people. On the other hand if the airline is black listed by the airlines that buy its products it will be truly screwed.
1
@Sophocles The FAA relies on Boeing to tell it whether its planes are safe to fly because it doesn't have the staff to do the job itself. Recent NYTimes articles have described the relationship between Boeing and the FAA as one where the manufacturer is also the de facto regulator, using its own personnel to provide the FAA with test and reliability data.
If another of these planes falls out of the sky and people die as a result, the FAA --- headed by the Trump appointed Acting Administrator Daniel Elwell --- will run for cover and point to Boeing's safety claims. Elwell has deep ties to the airline industry, carriers and manufacturers alike, but he is part of the Trump administration, a place where accountability and taking responsibility is not a valued virtue.
Facts:
1. Why is the 737 MAX still flying in the US? FAA claims their 737 MAX review "shows no systemic performance issues," and "no basis to order grounding."
2. Definition of "systemic" is: "relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part."
3. It is already crystal-clear Boeing's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System), a new sub-system within the MAX's overall flight-control software system, played a role in the earlier Lion Air crash. Ergo, Boeing announced upcoming improvements to its flight-control software system in response to the previous Lion Air crash.
5. Can two downed, modern aircraft and 346 dead people be accurately characterized as providing "no basis" to consider a temporary fleet grounding until the situation is proven to be resolved?
Conclusion:
The FAA's plain-language excuse for not grounding the 737 MAX is irreconcilable with the facts. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own alternative facts.
16
My cousin was in charge of Flight Safety at the FAA for many years. When I asked him what the effects of deregulation on the FAA would be, he bluntly said that when there is an increase in crashes again, people would be demanding that the FAA do its job. He then reminded me that the FAA was founded to police air safety in the skies after a series of tragic crashes. Apparently, the power of the marketplace cannot do it all.
9
Now that Canada has closed its airspace to the 738 MAX and grounded the fleets of the largest airlines, Air Canada and Westjet, the US alone is now the only country still allowing the airplane to fly and American and Southwest are the only airlines still playing Russian roulette with the lives of their passengers. It's a shame that the US is now the banana republic of airline safety.
11
@Hammerwielder COPA Air out of Panama is still operating 32 of the 737 max 8 and 3 of the max 9...under the radar since no articles are mentioning them at all.
2
Right. The 737 Max 8 has been grounded in Canada and Europe, but here it’s been offered free admission to Harvard.
22
FAA officials should always keep in the back of their mind (1) if both of these recent crashes had occurred inside the US —as opposed to in third world countries on the other side of the planet—would they still be okay with Boeing 737 Max 8 flights here; (2) if the airline involved was a foreign built airlines rather than one built by US based Boeing would they still be resisting grounding the airplane; and (3) if their son or daughter or wife or husband had perished on one of these terrible accidents would they still resist grounding these airplanes until we had a more complete understanding of what occurred?
12
We are now a transactional nation. Money buys everything.
7
Both SW and American Airlines are struggling to stay in business. They most likely can not afford the loss if they have to ground these planes. A desperate and risky move on their part.
6
Amazing how the commentariat twists this into an anti-Trump story. Trump hasn't directed the FAA to do anything has he? Don't think so. Story doesn't say he has done anything other than take the call His tweet on Monday was negative re Boeing overdoing technology.
The history of Boeing being able to help certify their planes predates Trump.
Moreover, the airlines that fly the plane in the US can ground it if they want. They probably have a better understanding of the issues than most of the commentariat. Certainly their pilots do who would refuse to fly if they thought there was an issue.
Now, no doubt, two flights of the same type aircraft within a short period of time are concerning. But at this point we don't know for certain the issues are the same in both cases. And unusual events (airplane crashes) can cluster close together just by chance.
And it may be that even if the issue has something to do with the software on the Boeing plane, it may also be an issue of pilot training -- i.e. the pilots of the planes that crashed not having enough flight training and experience.
I'm not a Boeing shareholder. But Boeing (and the airlines) have a vested interest in safety -- and we've seen continuous improvements in commercial aviation safety over the years.
But regardless of your opinion of Boeing etc., this isn't a Trump issue.
4
@Ralphie
Too many folks on the left suffer from Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I’m not ready to die today! Ground the planes
"Boeing Flights Grounded Across the Globe, but Not in the U.S."
Clearly if Trump says there is no problem, and the Executives of Boeing say there is no problems, Americans must have faith on what those people say!
To be really convincing, I believe Trump should for the next little while, hold all his meetings, instead of in the White House, he should hold them on board of a Boeing 737 Max 8, flying no stop, at least 12 hours/day!
The full team of the Boing Exsecutives, should be doing the same, conducting all their meetings, aboard one of their 737Max8, flying across the U.S. as well as across the oceans!!
That will set a very good example for lots of other travellers to choose to fly that aircraft!!
5
NYT please keep this at the top of the news until these planes are grounded.
8
The B-737 is now a 50 year old airframe. Putting considerably heavier, more powerful engines on them, positioning them farther forward than originally designed, all change the flight characteristics of the airplane.
Boeing attempted to address these changes with technology, apparently, instead of making pilots spend enough time in a simulator for them to fully familiarize themselves with how the airplane behaves.
Seems to me that's a horse on Boeing. I'm sure the American carriers who continue to use their B-737 Max inventory have spent plenty of time getting this problem solved since this second accident.
4
@Bob Burns The airframes of the Max 8 are not 50 years old. Maybe there are some old 737s out there built in the late 1960's, but the entire U.S fleet of the Max 8 in service now are new planes. There is no issue with the frames. The issue is with the Flight Management System and how to properly engage and disengage certain parameters that assist with flying the aircraft. A very good friend of mine is a pilot with as US carrier that uses the Max 8. He trained extensively with the systems in question. He also has 14,000 hours and he tells me it is a training issue. Foreign pilots and their companies are not properly trained. This a repeating theme and I am sure the same thing is true with the Ethiopia crash.
3
@Bob Burns Plenty of time...yes, like 20 minutes.
@John
Your point about training is well taken but one would think that a better design would not pose such problems.
1
FAA is no longer the gold standard and arbitrator of air safety. The rest of the world has caught on to American corruption and decide to make their own assessment and decision.
12
Why can't the FAA and Boeing just issue a notice to pilots to disengage the autopilot on takeoff until they reach altitude?
All reports of this problem that didn't result in a crash say the problem was resolved when they turned off the robot.
8
@Occupy Government That's the ticket, OG. Anyone who has the most rudimentary exposure to how stalls occur knows that takeoff is a period that can fool the software, and it's best to have the pilot take care of things.
2
Just called American Airlines to find out if the flight we already booked is on a 737 Max 8. The agent confirmed that we were and said we could change to another flight not on a 737 Max 8 for a fee of $300 per ticket! Unbelievable, we will NOT be booking/flying with American Airlines anymore.
19
The problem is American Airlines is too big to care about your comfort or safety, unless you’re a premium frequent flyer. If I were still in the top tier at AA, I could change my upcoming flight at no cost, period.
2
@Pat P And I thought United was the worst. I'm glad I fly United.
There is a software fix for the problem that Boeing and the FAA say does not exist.
Isn't that essentially a recall notice? Take the plane back to the dealer and get the safety upgrade.
American business does not run the government.
11
@Occupy Government It clearly does.
1
Trump does not want the use of new technologies in aircraft. He does not like new technologies. Therefore, he must also think that we need to eliminate things like auto-driving technologies or even less sophisticated technologies like seat belt alarms and auto-braking when it comes to vehicles or the motion and infrared sensors used in security systems or even spell checking used in almost all computer programs today. Remember that he also wanted to replace the new catapult system used in the latest version of an aircraft carrier and go back to the old way. His comments point very clearly that the time has come to eliminate any controls he wants to use in the government and here we have one of two choices: Have congress take back its responsibility for government and jointly limit the Trump ideas from ever being accepted or the only other option, which would also require a majority of congress accepting, and that is impeachment.
2
US$1,000,000 contribution will always do the job. US$2,000,000 will get the FAA to blame those untrained third world airlines (only OK to buy the plane but not OK to fly them).
US10, 000,000 and we will lean on everybody to buy more of these "safe" planes or else.
Who spare a thought on those passengers who perish or might perish?
10
When the secretary of transportation is only in her role because she's married to the do-nothing Majority Leader of the Senate - and she was installed there by Trump - it's no surprise that nothing has been done.
26
@common sense advocate But she stands by her men (so she said). Isn't that a good thing? LOL That should qualify her to be the Secretary of Transport, right?
1
@Alex Stave - no doubt, she would refuse "transport" on this particular plane.
The article confines its reporting to two airline crashes. But on a website where pilots report troubling observations about their flights I understand that the "nose down" problem has occurred multiple times. I'd like to hear reporting on this data.
The FAA may not have the resources it should have to maintain independent inspections of aircraft. THat would have forced action by Boeing months ago. But Elaine Chow only needs to open her mouth and issue the order to ground the planes in this country. Ground them now!
22
Appealing to Donald Trump instead of fixing the problem indicates that there is something seriously wrong with management at Boeing.
41
perhaps even more troubling is that there is something seriously wrong with this president and administration.
4
@Tim Lewis Yeah, should have made it a bigger contribution. Never mind 2020 will be time enough.
@Tim Lewis
Tim,
They can't help themselves anymore. Profits are all that matters now. In Japan this moron would have resigned.
1
What Boeing did here is engineering insanity. The thing is a cobbled deathtrap. I don't even want these coffins overhead, and I would steadfastly refuse to fly in them. Passengers should be warned at the gate: planes have been known to nose-dive after takeoff, proceed at your own risk. Boeing did something very unorthodox here, and they now realize that their entire judgement is on the line. Where else did they cut corners? I'm not about to find out. Sorry, but I think I better walk.
17
@shreir
Where did you get your degree in aeronautical engineer from?
1
No problem Boeing. Make a campaign contribution and Trump will dance to your tune.
19
With Trump's help, the Max riddle will be solved!
Trump's ginormous brain and self-proclaimed intelligence is being wasted while he flawlessly guides his administration.
A smart fool could do just as well.
He should be freed of his leadership to solve all that ails the free world.
6
Unfortunately this is not the first time Boeing falls suspect of being more interested in public image than safety.
In the nineties a series of incidents involving a design issue with a rudder servovalve led to two fatal crashes and loss of 157 lives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues
Yet much more effort was placed then on cover up including obscene legal procedures to shift the blame elsewhere. Until it could not be held up any more, the issue was solved technically as should have been when first noticed.
There is an issue with the new software running the 737 MAX 8 autopilot. This sort of problems happen all the time and the proper attitude - better for credibility - is to recognize and take action.
It did not happen, Boeing chose as usually to put the blame on the pilots. The failure is similar to what is known as a trim runaway, only more severe and untimely, and requires swift action before an unrecoverable situation fully develops.
Boeing should have issued urgent and detailed procedural warnings while designing a software workaround for the problem.
Only doing this should be to acknowledge a problem, something they were not willing to.
It is worth taking notice again, how a powerful and connected corporation succeeds in putting stock value and profits first, product quality and safety behind, no matter the means and consequences.
10
Arrogance and greed playing with peoples' lives. Very shameful.
9
Unbridled capitalism... The business of America is business. The government is there on offer. We are now in the ranks of the banana republics. The 1% doesn't fly 737 Max 8s, Duh!
Two crashes, same MO. Nothing here a few millions of donations can't smooth over. The dead and future dead, well, they have choices. We had "pay a little extra for more leg room", now we'll get "pay a little more for a safer plane".
Money, money, mo' money!
7
@live now, you'll be a long time dead
Really if you know why the second plane crashed then by all means share.
1
“no basis to order grounding aircraft,” is a statement of clear certitude, by a flawed human, as we all are in so many ways, that states that ALL that needs to be known and understood about this plane’s performance is available. Flying in all known conditions. As well as one’s currently unknown because of gaps in necessary information and new needed technology. As well as the reality that outliers as well as a condition of “unknowability” can exist.What if this is not so?Literature’s “Fail better” can touch hearts and souls; or not. Losing somas, limbs, psyches and spirits based on uncontrollable numerical probabilities, garbed in semantic surrealism’s “no basis,” is...? Personal and systemic unaccountability continue to spread and reign.
2
To all you Fox News watchers who have been brainwashed into thinking the Federal government is some kind of evil monster: THIS is why the Federal government matters. THIS is why faith in the Federal government is so vital. THIS is why conflict of interest is about even the APPEARANCE of conflict - because otherwise we are left doubting if decisions are being made in the public's best interest or in a corporation's or in a Senator's and his wife's, who just happens to be the Secretary of Transportation.
I wish all of those who think that Federal oversight is a terrible thing could go off and live in their own libertarian fantasy land of unregulated food and water and airplanes, and leave the rest of us grownups in a country where we don't have to worry whether we can trust the airplane our loved one is booked to fly on next week.
20
@Jenna
I have the same dream and would call the place “Aynrandia.”
Let them live there and see how they like their invisible hand when it’s crushing them.
2
Crony Capitalism at its worst.
8
I always thought that a conscience was a liability in the business world, but when you add self defeating stupidity as in the case of Boeing not recalling the Max 8 then you have the ultimate disaster of capitalism. It's like locking the exit doors in a fireworks factory. No wonder the socialist gadflies in our government are in their heyday.
4
What happened to better safe than sorry? Two planes have crashed, killing hundreds of people, within a 5 month period and Boeing wants to keep them in the air? What is wrong with Trump (stupid question, sorry!) that he, as president, doesn't INSIST these planes are grounded until the cause of those crashes are known. Would he fly on one? Would the Boeing people? Sorry, I sure would not! Again, it seems our country is all about money because that's what it is here, isn't it?
7
Mitch McConnell's wife is Secretary of Transportation. Feel better now?
8
How come an American president involve such a thing?
Trump callousness reached suffocating level.
I found Boeing CEO utterly dumb for calling Trump and trying to influence ongoing NTSB investigation...……
Washington swamp drained all over the country as Trump promised.
2
Elaine Chao cares for American's transportation safety as Mitch McConnell cares for the Constitution.
14
Ah, the Trump seal of approval. All is well!
1
Here's my suggestion to Dennis A. Muilenberg. Prove your faith in this aircraft by flying in it constantly for a couple of months. Get out there and prove that it isn't the plane. Take a bunch of commercial commuter flights on various airlines.
Show our Stable Genius that your plane isn't too advanced for mere humans to operate.
25
Utterly insane. The problem has been identified, the fix is nearly ready. Not grounding these planes is Russian Roulette, and corruption in its most basic, amoral form.
7
American Hypocrisy at its Paramount.
4
I will ask my hopeful question:
Could THIS horrible conflict of interest, and the resulting dismissal, by Trump, of concern for the safety of his base (MAGAs who fly) be the scandal that is unforgivable?
Probably not, but I do live in hope. That said, everyone change your flights -- we don't need another crash and loss of life just to get rid of Trump. Right???
7
I won’t be flying anywhere anytime soon. I have zero confidence in Chao or this administration to do the right thing. They would throw us out of an airplane or under a bus to save their own skins every time. Moral bankruptcy on full display.
4
Maybe people will be happier if Boeing closes down and is replaced by a Chinese company. But it’s all Trump’s fault. If he hadn’t stolen the election, this never would have happened.
“Airplanes are becoming far too complex to fly,” Individual-1 wrote on Twitter. “Pilots are no longer needed, but rather computer scientists from MIT.” And he should know, holding a job more complex than his ability to comprehend. Our POTUS: the expression of the Dunning-Krueger effect.
"Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises." What "safety Issue" must arise? Two 737 Max's have crashed: Lion Air and Ethiopian Air. What is the definition of "safety issue" for Elaine Chao? The planting of a US 737 Max? Americans would be wise to not board a 737 Max until the "safety issue" is resolved.
7
I don't want to pile on or restate the obvious, BUT this reeks of everything that is wrong in the US today. Money and influence overrules everything.
3
According to this reports “Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises.” At this time, there are multiple reports by US pilots of similar events with the autopilot system. Think about it, if they ignore reports by pilots coupled with two similar disasters within 5 months and wait for a safety issue to arise, that issue will more than likely arise while a plane is in the air based upon the evidence at hand. Essentially, that means the transportation department and the FAA will not take action until there is a similar catastrophic event with loss of life. Evidence, once again that we need a firewall between big business and regulatory agencies.
6
@NYTimes: Please find out what kind of plane the CEO of Boeing, Mr. Muilenburg, uses as his corporate jet. If it's not a 737Max, it'd tell me a lot: Either he is oblivious to the reputational damage this is doing to Boeing, or he is being dishonest about the proclaimed safety of his company's plane.
5
Tout va très bien, Madame la Marquise...
Boeing nor the FAA are projecting any gravitas as to what has happened.
If I were the CEO of an airline, the Airbus 320neo never looked better...
1
In the name of the Profit, the paragon of the military industrial cesspool appeals directly to the ignoramus in chief to keep a questionable aircraft flying. That should be very reassuring to the American people.
8
This is strongman banana republic stuff. Muilenburg and Trump conspire to overcome common sense safety. Elaine Chao is impotent. Tells us all we need to know about Boeing’s corporate greed and Trump-American Greatness. The stench is overwhelming.
7
It's cheaper to buy politicians than to design planes! Who knew? Sad!?
10
Call me cynical, but I can't imagine a question like 'Mr. Muilenburg, can you show me the data that supports your statement?'
5
Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises.
What would that "safety issue" have to be? A crash?
8
Reporting on MSNBC TV last night was that there was a software fix had been expected for January, 2019, and work on this was halted entirely for 5 weeks during the recent government shutdown:
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-admin-assurances-on-plane-s-safety-ring-hollow-abroad-1456981571906
8
I saw that segment last night; scary indeed. While I believe Boeing should have grounded all 737 Max8 planes after Lion Air, there is blood on potus’s hands for the shutdown that delayed the software fix that might have prevented the latest Max8 crash.
Remember when human life mattered more than corporate greed?
8
@Shelly H,
Yup.
It disappeared at just about the time the Hollywood actor, ronnie reagan, was pretending to be president back in the 80s.
1
@Victorious Yankee At least you could appeal to Reagan's better angels at times. With Trump, there are no such possibilities.
1
@Connie G,
Sorry but, a "man" who lied about liberating Nazi concentration camps when he never left the continental U.S. for the duration, had no "better angels".
1
Rachel Maddow had an eye-opening show on this last night. There are places on the Internet where pilots informally post about issues, and several AMERICAN pilots have written about the exact same issue the pilots of these two doomed planes are known to have complained about during their final flight - the sudden tendency of the nose on this plane to fight the pilot and turn down when he was definitely trying to ascend.
And then there’s the Boeing top exec who plays golf with Trump at Mar-a-lago.
And then there’s the software fix that’s been in the works for a while, should be ready by the end of April, would have been ready sooner but got delayed by the government shutdown.
An administration with a fit and moral core would ground these planes until the fix is completed. You know, like the rest of the human race did. God help us. Our president surely won’t.
868
@Joanna Stasia That was an informative show last night. Maddow also day-lighted the unacceptable fact that Trump has not yet nominated a director for the FAA (2+ years into his term), and that he had wanted to install his Trump plane head pilot into the position.
Trump is hands down the worst president ever.
165
@Joanna Stasia The plane has only two angle of attack sensors. When one sensor fails, the software has no way to work out what the angle of attack is.
The plane needs one (or two) additional sensors, revised software to handle a vote in case one sensor fails and a complete retest.
This is much more than a software fix.
28
@Joanna Stasia
I found it appalling -- there are always pilot responses to aircraft anomalies. 5 were mentioned. Did she look into other models ?
The software fix -- the way she explained what it did was not accurate.
It was a hit job ..mostly to get Trump .. with very little regard to the facts of the matter. People don't want to face the fact that Maddow and Hannity -- are cut from the same cloth.
Most air crashes have only one thing in common -- the hit the ground
1
Rachel Maddow reported last night: 1) US pilots have logged reports in a database of the same behavior that downed the Lion Air plane; 2) that distribution of a software fix that might have remedied the problem was delayed 5 weeks by the Trump shutdown.
If the first point is true, then Boeing's CEO and management bears responsibility for this most recent tragedy.
If the second point is true, then Trump also has blood on his hands - inasmuch as these most recent casualties are his direct responsibility of his willful, malicious engineering of a government shutdown.
53
@Matthew Carnicelli
Boeing's CEO and management would also bear responsibility on the 2nd point, if it is true.
4
@Matthew Carnicelli Now we know why trump was so quick to tweet out something about airplane technology. He's trying to cover his big guilty back end.
4
@Matthew Carnicelli
That shutdown was all Mitch McConnell.
1
Not surprising. So appalled with the US attitude. Had any of Trump's family members got involved in the fatalities, things would have been so different!
7
Readers are alarmed that there is a cozy relationship between Boeing and the government, but do they recognize that the FAA is not equipped to check on Boeing, and must accept Boeing reports on aircraft they make?
The problem is that the FAA has neither the expertise nor the equipment nor the budget to delve into the inner workings of aircraft. So they must depend upon the manufacturers’ assessments.
Of course, Boeing wants to avoid bankruptcy, so it has an interest in safe planes. But when 1/3 of its profitability is tied to the 737 Max, grounding this plane looks less inviting than fixing it “on the fly”, to coin a phrase.
4
So, trump will smudged in another scandal, he is a magnet, his Transportation secretary forced to fly with 737 max.....
is this real or we are living in another world's hell...…...
3
@su It feels like I am living in a nightmare that won't end.
Screw the experts, go directly to the corrupter in chief. I am sure he will have Mitch McConnell's obliging wife do what is required to keep Boeing Happy. This is the nation Trump created.
8
Elaine Cho, wife of Mitch McConnell, said "......."
The public will have to vote with our feet for our safety, no one with authority gives a damn.
As long as the money flows, the planes will fly.
5
The most alarming point here is that Trump is so easily manipulated by powerful people, in this case, the Boeing CEO.
9
So this is where we're at now, huh?
The FAA, until now the leading aviation agency in the world, defied the world over because everyone knows not to trust any US agency under the leadership of this most corrupt of administrations.
Meanwhile in the US, another stark reminder that corporate profits - and sacred shareholder value - now trumps the safety of our skies. Isn't living in an oligarchy great?
3
If Trump, the stable genius, denies the scientific evidence for climate change which can bring disasters to the world and future generations, what the heck is the importance of planes falling off the sky here and there to him? He may be a genius (hope we will see his IQ score along with his tax returns one day), but he understands nothing!
1
Our thoughts and prayers in advance for those flying on Max 8's, and their families.
2
@Jim S.
Thoughts and prayers are apparently all we've got.
We can only hope that the families of those that died due to the software glitch get justice in the courts.
Welcome to the third world where the governments are corrupt and the citizens feel insecure and vulnerable.
6
@mary bardmess YOUR government is as corrupt. And, at least third world governments want to protect their citizens from flying this messed up aircraft. But NOT your government. Your government doesn't care about that.
Obviously Boeing's ability to make money is more important to Trump, the FAA and Boeing than the lives of the American people.
2
Another hypocrisy of the American machine in action. Imagine if this situation concerns another country like France or China involving another technology. What do you think we as Americans will be saying? We have policed and bullied the world so much and applied our standards on to others that it should be no surprise that the same quality, safety, and environmental standards should be applied on to ourselves. We are showing the world that Americans can be sacrificed to save our face. I will be choosing flights that do not fly these plane to protect my safety if the USA government will not.
1
This is straightforwardly corrupt and an insult to US flight crews and passengers. If the aircraft was made by Airbus (EU) or Bombardier (Canada), the FAA would have banned it from US skies after the first accident and not be sitting on its hands after a second, apparently virtual identical, fatal crash due to performance issues in this American-built airplane. Boeing blowing smoke about "software upgrades" isn't acceptable. Would people have been satisfied with Samsung saying it was investigating software upgrades on its exploding and flaming cell phones? Of course not. Expect Canada to announce grounding 737 Maxes later today, leaving the US virtually alone in letting them fly.
1
Let's see... The CEO of Boeing makes a call to the CEO of the United States. The CEO of the United States whines that the new version of Air Force One is coming in over budget, at FOUR BILLION bucks. Boeing CEO says, "Don't worry, Mr. Pres, we're going to give you a break on the price." And the CEO of the United States says, "Don't worry, Mr. Pres, we're going to keep those MAX 737s in the air. Treat yourself to a good cigar, on me."
1
So much for the Headlong rush into the use of AI.
Boeing planes are the best in the world. But now with the introduction of Autonomous flight systems ? NO
Even this will not wake people to the dangers of shoving AI into everything from aircraft to toothbrushes and in between. You think this is a disaster ? Wait till every aspect of life is governed by this for - NO REASON.
Laugh all you like. We will all find out ...
1
I'm stunned by the carelessness of this article, but more stunned by readers. It's as if a bunch of anti-trump readers are tying a decades old approach to regulations and over-sight to Trump and Republicans. Can readers not just digest and then question what they read?
NYTimes, you are responsible for grossly misleading the public. This has been in place for decades and makes total sense. The complexities of designing safe aircraft, with innovations, is far beyond the US government. The US government (FAA) is charged with ensuring air safety. They could never digest and interpret whether boeing is meeting safety standards with over a million designs, parts, and pieces. Nor should they.
This design has worked, and is working for other aircraft companies. Airbus has hundreds of private regulators working at the company. Same approach that Boeing uses. And, while the article states that Boeing is both manufacturer and regulator, that is a false representation of what is happening. The FAA is the final inspection body, but they use the expertise of those that work to meet the countless regulatory guidelines to determine the safety of these jets.
People here act like they should all be government employees, experts hired by the government and paid by the government to inspect 'rocket science' on an on-going basis. I've never seen so many comments so off base. And it is the fault of readers that do not dig further, but moreso the fault of the NYTimes. Shame.
1
@Ma There's a slight problem this time, +300 death. Independent regulation (yes, the government has to be capable to assume that responsibility) is needed and its not due to the "big government" legend, it is because normally private enterprises try to cut corners in order to fatten their profits even if it means launching unsecure products, literature is full of them...
3
Shame? For what? Until the exact causes of those two tragic crashes are determined, those planes should be grounded.
What does any sort of allegiance to any! President have to do with aviation safety? HUMAN LIVES MATTER!
3
@Ma The rest of the world disagrees with you. They have grounded the planes.
Why does all this sound terribly familiar?
Wow. I can't believe how so many people who know nothing about the FMS of the Max 8 speak with such authority. This is a training issue and that is why I will never fly a foreign carrier.
1
The only thing that's going to happen here is FAA losing its credibility (and the fact that nearly every agency around the world has acted to ground B738Max probably means it already has).
So much for "draining the swamp..."
2
That picture with Trump —- ooph, does he always sit with his arms crossed and that sour expression?
I hope nothing bad happens but responsible companies and leaders usually “err on the side of caution”.
I imagine "personally appeal to" Trump = pay Trump.
2
Boeing Execs: our planes inexplicably fall out of the sky and kill all passengers, but nothing is wrong.
Profits are up this quarter.
1
Indeed. Well put.
It's just people's lives we're talking about here.
The FAA are simply carrying out Trump’s sociopathic agenda, but If one of these planes crashes in the United States that will be the end of Boeing, so what exactly is the CEO thinking here?
1
Good to know that the US will take immediate action “if a safety issue arises.” Two new planes crashing in similar fashion on takeoff apparently doesn’t raise suspicions that perhaps something might be amiss. Maybe a third and fourth disaster might coax some “immediate” action. I flew American last week and will again next week. I won’t walk into a Max8.
3
Paul, I don't know how adept you are on social media. I already cautioned my family not to step foot on any B Max8. Perhaps a call for a boycott of carriers who still deploy the machines is in order.
In America, money is speech above all else.
1
In order to allay Mr. Trump's concerns about those terribly complicated air-o-planes, I recommend that the Air Force One designation be reassigned to a twin prop De Havilland. That should make him feel right at home in the 50's.
5
You don't have to be a Harvard Business School grad to see that both Boeing and the U.S. airlines who continue to fly these aircraft are bringing a public relations (and business) disaster on themselves. This is "New Coke" times ten.
24
Boeing itself could tell airlines to stop flying 737-MAXs for a few weeks while it and the FAA looked into whether the plane's software had problems. It is not only the FAA's decision. Grounding the plane for a few weeks might be better for Boeing's business, anyway. Not many travelers want to fly on a suspect plane. Mr. Muilenberg should not be lobbying Don Trump. His engineers should be working with the FAA and the airlines.
7
I do not understand why the F.A.A. shouldn't be required to ground the planes until this potential problem is fully investigated and addressed. Boeing and the federal government are playing Russian roulette with our lives. I'd call this reckless endangerment, wouldn't you?
7
Maybe the FAA, the administration and Boeing thought they could ignore the issues because no crash has occured in the US, but now we know that US pilots have reported similar problems with this plane (ie nose down)- the difference is that they were able to extricate themselves from the potentially deadly consequences in time by disconnecting the auto-pilot system. That an automated system would even perform such actions - nose down, with increasing speed - to avoid stalling (whether it's the case or not) is plainly unwarranted and dangerous: let the human pilots determine what to do.
4
An interesting correlation is how quickly they removed Romaine lettuce off the shelves. After all, it’s just a bunch of farmers who suffered. The price for our gastrointestinal safety cannot be understated.
5
Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises.
Seriously?
What happens if you don't discover that safety issue until after a plane goes down.
I see planes flying west going to O'hare.
They fly over the Lake then for about ten miles or so, over populated areas before reaching the airport itself.
I have often thought could another Sully happen?
But Lake Michigan is nothing to play with.
And no lobbyist is worth the possible risk to human lives or animals flying on board.
Ground those planes now!
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Common sense, please!!
6
Nothing to see here folks. Move on please.
Does Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao fly 737 MAX 8? Does her husband, Mitch McConnell? How about the rest of the Trump kleptocracy? All the evidence is circumstantial, so keep on flying those planes. The regulatory egg is going to be all over somebody's face pretty soon. I hope the Ethiopians send the black boxes to London or Tokyo to be read -- I'd like an unbaised opinion on what's in them.
Time for some passenger boycotts, folks. If the government won't do its job, consumers have to make their feelings known. Don't count on Jared and Ivanka to protect your interests, because they fly Air Force or private. But Mr. Trump is taking phone calls from the president of Boeing. How cosy.
12
I suspect the whole strategy of putting oversized engines on an old airframe and compensating for inherent instability via flight automation was a commercially driven, technically risky one and a stronger regulator might have rejected it.
Fixing the problem won't be easy.
In terms of a software fix, this is not just a software problem -- it's sensor malfunction and overall hardware / software system design and integration. Hard to prove reliability of any fix without extensive testing.
In terms of pilot training, it's not just a matter of learning how to turn off MCAS -- it's learning how to fly without MCAS. Can it even be done, particularly in emergencies?
Pretty irresponsible behavior by Boeing and FAA!
11
Step 1: Get planes in air. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!!!
Boeing claims to be working on a software fix for a problem they claim not to exist for two catastrophic crashes that they claim are unrelated, and for which (at least the second one) they haven't reviewed the flight recorder data. Yeah I feel real safe.
14
Without reading the comments, several thoughts come to mind. It it mechanical failure which caused the flights to crash, pilot error, or software error/incompatibility?
If 8000 flights a day are taken and 'only' two crashes, still a good safety record. Without knowing the cause of the crashes it seems rash to ground all the planes as they seem to be flying well otherwise. That being said...I can't find reference to the investigations of the crashes and their results (at least the older crash.) I fly domestic SWA all the time, and probably have been on a Max 8 and will be again.
Can't really extricate a large airline manufacturer from the govt. Who will fill their shoes if gone. Piper? General Aviation?
2
@S Correction...actually, two fatal crashes per 8,000 daily flights within 6 months is a terrible and disastrous record statistically compared to other commercial aircraft.
1
@S no it's not a good safety record. It's unheard of for two brand new aircraft to crash within a few months of each other during the same phase of flight under similar conditions. There is no precedent for that in modern aviation history. It's clear the FAA, Boeing and the US carriers are putting profits ahead of safety.
If we need any more evidence that multinational corporations exert a chokehold over our government, here it is. The trump administration is now allowing a demonstrably life-threatening plane to fly without even so much as a temporary grounding. Apparently they got paid the right price.
7
The portion of the article describing how the airplane manufacturer's employees also supervise and approve the certification process isn't quite correct. For many years, the FAA used 'Designated Engineering Representatives' (DERs), generally company employee experts who supervised the detailed daily work and recommended FAA approval where appropriate, but the FAA itself retained final approval authority. The change that occurred in recent years was the replacement of the DER system with one of delegated authority, i.e.: company employees appointed by the FAA as 'Authorized Representatives' (ARs) with full authority in many areas to certify work on behalf of the FAA. FAA personnel are far too few to provide direct oversight of the design and development process and are not located onsite where this work takes place. FAA representatives depend largely on their appointed, company employed ARs for information.
8
With its dual statutory role of fostering and regulating air commerce, FAA is attempting to achieve a delicate balance in managing the Max 8 situation. I hope to God they are right about leaving things as they are for now. Because if there is another crash, it will be the end of FAA as we know it - major structural changes will ensue.
3
I would like to see Boeing's cost analysis on this. Somewhere, they have figured it's cheaper to keep the planes in the air because they will lose less that way as opposed to paying claims because people are dying when their planes crash.
4
As with Purdue Pharma the chummy, entitled relationship between these corporations and the US government is too close for our personal safety. Making big money more important than the lives and well being of Americans. The common folk are expendable. Our legislators are failing us at the most basic level. “For The People” is dead.
9
The acting director of the FAA should not deny that something is wrong. Like Trump, regardless of the high frequency of similar events, the FAA stands behind Boeing. The usual Trump argument is that it's a hoax. Someone is manipulating the data. I hope that those in the states refuse to fly on a 737Max. If such refusals occur, Boeing will have to take action. This is not a hoax and there are too many reported problems with the Auto Pilot system to say all is right with Boeing.
7
FAA and/or Boeing not grounding the 737 MAX8 in your country is nothing less than incomprehensible to me, both from a safety and a commercial point of view.
FAA says they "have no basis to order the grounding of the aircraft". Seriously? Two similar reasonably new airplanes crash within a year, in accidents of similar nature, possibly linked to a new auto pilot feature, not clearly communicated to pilots. Even if it turns out there is no problem with the MCAS, no problem with the flying characteristics given certain circumstances, no problem with the plane what-so-ever, how on earth can the FAA conclude already now? Because Trump was told exactly that from Boeing?
Commercial: SHOULD there be a problem with the plane and its systems, and another crashes now, the future is behind Boeing one time for all. End of 100 years proud history. Instead of grounding all planes immediately, and take the cost, they gamble and risk losing everything. But they have put themselves between a rock and a hard place: Air authorities all over the world will not let the plane fly again before Boeing assures them all is well. But how can they say all is well without admitting there might have been a problem in the first place? How Boeing will dig themselves out of this hole without losing very much money and damage to their reputation I can not understand. But some humility and acceptance of responsibility might be in order.
Nobody in my family will fly on this plane for a long long time.
17
@Kalle H "How Boeing will dig themselves out of this hole without losing very much money and damage to their reputation I can not understand."
The "First Rule of Holes" is to stop digging.
More evidence that Trump does not take his constitutional duty to protect the American people from threats both foreign and domestic seriously. He is receiving his orders from a CEO. God help us.
22
Looks like we can no longer rely on any kind of government oversight or consumer protection so we’re left with taking matters into our own hands.
I fly a lot for business so I called Southwest Airlines and cancelled my upcoming flight with them and made sure to let them know why. I let American Airlines know I would no longer be booking flights through them until the problem with their planes is addressed. Southwest and American are the only domestic airlines using this plane.
15
@C. Pierson
I too fly SW very frequently and own their stock. However, I booked a flight two days ago and purposely chose a non 737 - max flying airline. I think the probability of TWO similar crashes of the same plane by chance is exceedingly low.
1
Your description of self regulation is somewhat misleading. The FAA has had for a long time, during my 42 years in the business, given manufacturers the ability to employ Designated Engineering Representatives (DERs). They are now known as ODARs (Organization Designation Authorization Representatives) since the 2005 date mentioned in the article, for manufacturers that have been FAA authorized as ODAs. The major difference is that before ODA, the DERs reported directly to FAA mentors. Under ODA, the ODARs report through a company (FAA approved) administrator who normally includes them in technical clarifications with FAA when needed. The FAA (as previously with DERs) approves the appointment and re-certification of the ODARs.
2
Our transportation secretary assures us they will take action if a safety issue arises. What do they need?
14
@William R. Greene, MD Just one more... and then there will be major changes. Major.
1
@William R. Greene, MD
Er... another crash? (Maybe 2,... 3... whatever; who's counting?)
1
With Mitch McConnell's wife overseeing the FAA, we can rest assured that all decisions will be made on the basis of facts, logic and the safety of passengers. Thoughts of campaign contributions from Boeing will never enter into the picture.
24
@Raised Eyebrows
I detect some sarcasm... Well said.
1
It's interesting that the FAA allows these planes to keep flying in the US of A when practically every other country in the world has grounded them.
I wonder if there are any Boeing people on the FAA board? Just asking.
4
It is unfortunate, but sometimes design problems with aircraft can be resolved only after a few crashes, not withstanding the best efforts of the aviation industry and government. There is also the complication of pilot error which becomes more common with the introduction of anew plane as some pilots will be distracted or confused as they adjust to what is unfamiliar.
A look into the history of the Lockheed Electra (circa 1960) shows how these factors can result in several crashes during the first year or so of operation. A design defect caused the a wing to come about, but even with months of investigation and combining all the engineering resources of the industry, it took a second crash involving the same type of failure before the cause was discovered.
While grounding the plane might give time for the investigation of the most recent crash to be completed, there is no assurance that any design flaw will be uncovered. Meanwhile grounding the plane will do nothing to improve pilot familiarity with the plane. Flight simulators can simulate only known results.
Airlines like Southwest have the most experience with the new plane and it may well be safe for them to continue to fly while it still being rationale for other airlines and nations outside of North American to ground the plane.
1
@Mac
My recollection is that the wings fell off the Electra from metal fatigue after long usage, like the cabin failures on the Comet. There was a design defect, but it took time to manifest itself.
Everything so far is consistent with an unstable aircraft (due to the new engines) that can be balanced only by an improperly written program in the autopilot.
Seems like a no brainer to stop flying them commercially until some test flights can validate a new program -- because having everybody but the US ground them isn't doing Boeing's (or the USA's ) reputation for commercial aviation safety any good.
@Mac
This type of cold detachment can be helpful to root out and solve a serious problem but it has a way of missing what the actual priorities need to be in this case.
It is not allowing pilots to get more familiarity.
It is not maybe allowing for the "unfortunate" possibility of another incident in trade to collect more possibly useful data.
Sometimes the brainiacs need to figure out a problem without all of the information that would be perfect, a perspective that would be more helpful than all of the knowledge in the world when actual lives hang in the balance and hundreds have already been lost. They matter in the math too. Most of all.
The statement by the FAA at the end of this article was telling. Something to the effect of “We have no basis to take action.” This is indicative of the regulatory policy differences between the U. S. And the E. U. With not just the F.A.A. but also the E.P.A. With both agencies, one for aircraft and the other for chemicals we are exposed to, the standard in the U.S. is that a danger or harm needs to be established before regulatory action is taken. The E.U. in contrast, requires that safety be established before a plane can fly or a chemical can be used in our food supply. This serves best the interests of Corporations over the public interest and is not surprising.
10
I think Mr. Muilenburg should be booking flights on this aircraft for himself. Perhaps an overseas flight from the countries in question that have had these tragedies.
In lieu of Trump backing him up and also Trump receiving a $1,000,000 campaign contribution from Boeing again shows us blatantly what goes on in our politics.
With additional pilots complaints of this exact problem, I do not understand why they aren't all grounded, except for power and greed.
7
I, for one, will not fly Southwest or American airlines as long as they continue to use the 737 Max. It just might take the public's reluctance to fly these airline in order to force their grounding. Certainly the government won't push for it.
13
The NY Times briefing noted that "Boeing has said the planes are safe to fly, but has pledged to upgrade their software and improve pilot training."
This suggests -- or rather shouts out -- that the planes are not safe to fly NOW. They may be after a software upgrade and pilot training.
Otherwise, why bother?
9
I'm glad the EU is stepping up to fill the former role of the US in being the at the forefront of proper regulation. Sad to see how far corporatism has corrupted the US though. It seems like a thing that can't be undone once it's been allowed in.
16
In a separate announcement, Boeing said all its executives will stay in Trump hotels and the CEO will buy into Maro Lago.
25
Who, of all the people mentioned in this story, complains or raises the issue about money’s influence in our government? Trump, Pelosi, on down the line, they’re all bought off by big money and lobbies. And who is running for President of the United States that hasn’t been bought off by the big money interests? Anybody out there know, or even care?
2
@Robert M. Koretsky Bernie Sanders
1
Bernie Sanders
1
@Robert M. Koretsky So Pelosi is just as corrupt as your guy? That's not your point, but you slipped it in.
I am quite disturbed by the Boeing CEO calling POTUS to say the 737 is safe. Why isn't he calling TSB to offer full cooperation? I don't want to believe this a money-over-safety, but this behavior doesn't make me feel safer.
25
I've been saying this forever: why in the world would you fly commercial when you can just have your own Gulfstream waiting on the tarmac and take off without the hassles of tickets, security lines, and all those annoying other passengers? And now, what with crashes and everything, well, it's simple, isn't it? Case closed - no more commercial flights for me!
13
I've for the most part stopped flying some time ago after the implementation of the TSA and the so-called "Patriot act" (to keep us "safe" - what a laugh)
So while you apparently have 10k to waste flying privately the rest of us poor saps have to worry about boarding unsafe airlines? Your privilege harden your heart or are the rich simply unburdened by simple compassion and concern for others?
Elaine Chao - regulators "will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action" if a safety issue arises. Translation - If one of these planes crashes in the US we'll do something about it. Have you ever wondered why MS PCs after Win7 have to be rebooted all the time in order to function? Ever wonder why Apple products that used to be incredibly reliable now have to be powered off and on all the time and Updates come in seemingly every two weeks? Tech bloat. The underlying code is so complex and intertwined that nobody can keep track of it or keep it under control any longer. And now it's in the airplanes.
11
@JPZiller I totally agree with you here, even my ensemble of Linux machines, from ARM-based Raspberry Pi to AMD-based servers, all have ultra complex bloat in the code, to accommodate people making money with those machines and the hardware. Linus Torvalds and that community are in the pockets of the big money interests, if you don’t believe that, you’re naive or making money along with them. Why do you think Snowden is holed up in Moscow? Because it’s a better vacation resort than Hawaii?
I am not afraid of the Boeing 737 Max. I firmly believe that Mr. Trump's gut knows more about aviation safety than any aviation expert, foreign government, scientist, consumer safety advocate or anybody else on the planet. If he says a plane is safe and if he recommends that all planes in the future should be less complicated and less high tech, then I believe him. His gut is infallible. Climb on board folks! You are in safe hands when Mr. Trump is at the helm.
42
Priceless!
2
I remember POTUS wanted his personal pilot to be head of FAA (?) Great judgement there!
1
The saying 'better safe than sorry" has been reversed to "better sorry than safe" in the US when money and connections are in the balance.
17
By not grounding the 737 Max 8, Boeing may have chosen short terms benefits to its bottomline and current backlog of orders over long terms damage to its reputation and future business.
6
The Boeing CEO would be the last person I would trust to actually know whether the 737 Max-8 is "safe. It is not hard to find on pilot online forums that the automatic pitch feature added to this plane due to the larger engines was not adequately documented. Pilots were complaining about not knowing about it and that this change could lead to crashes under some conditions because of conflicting information being fed to the pilot in flight. I fly Delta so don't have to worry about flying this plane, but I wouldn't on another airline until Boeing explains what happened on the two crashes and what it has done to address the problem(s). In saying this I am not saying that the Ethiopian airline is without blame, especially if the reports that the co-pilot on this flight had all of 200 hours flying experience are true. Who was driving the plane on this flight? Crash investigations take time to sort everything out, unfortunately, but that is life.
6
As is always the case, there's the story and then there is story about the story which usually takes on a bigger life of its own especially when Trump's name pops up in it. For the sake of people whose life doesn't revolve exclusively around politics, find the problem quickly and fix it. It's probably way more important to the kids of some dad who has to fly on business to get home safely tonight than what we think of Trump.
5
But Trump could ground 737s —to make sure the father comes home. He doesn’t.
@John Doe do you mean the “fake news” story, or the true story?
I recall a time when America was respected and seen as a stronger leader across the globe.
What it looks like today is that Boeing is flying on borrowed time, hoping against hope to correct a software glitch before another tragedy occurs.
I sincerely hope and pray that does not happen. I see them as playing Russian roulette with the lives of the flying public.
16
This is one time that I agree somewhat with Donald Trump and his insinuation that the new design technology for the Max 8 has complicated the safe handling of this aircraft and over-rides the human element, trained pilots. Also, I believe there were some significant design changes with the Max 8 involving moving the engines forward and positioning them in front of re-designed wings rather than below. This alone, from a common sense perspective, would make the plane more front heavy and would complicate the outflow discharge from the engines since the outlet is now directly below a wing rather than into open air behind each wing. Building in software to help control possible issues with hardware design is, in my opinion, like putting the cart before the horse.
1
@RJF but he doesn’t instruct the FAA to ground the unsafe planes, a typical Trumpkin doublethink! And say one thing, but do another.
Boeing execs could go along way to reassuring the public if they put their families on these planes. They would need to be general flights, not hand picked pilots. If they will send their own children on them, I will believe their reassurances.
11
Money and influence trump safety concerns here. No surprise that a company with close ties to the government and the military (a real MIC) along with inter-changeable officials (gosh, just like Wall Street...who would have thought?) can put off an obvious decision to re-assure the flying public. Aside from Boeing's "bottom line" there are real lives at stake here. Err on the side of caution because there are many other types of aircraft flying and people will still get to their destinations...alive.
6
Obviously, there is something in the construction of this airplane that dud not function properly, but rather than admit an error by Boeing , they will simply say there was nothing wrong with the airline that crashed but they have included a extra device that will correct the vague possibility of a Pilots error, thus saving millions of dollars they would have paid to the families of the passengers that died in the two crashes.
2
As one who is facing four flight segments over the next two weeks on Boeing 737-800 planes, I'm a bit worried.
The problem seems to be in new software which can overrule pilot action in some cases. (This is probably a 'fix' to the situation that downed Air France Flight 447 off Brazil in 2009 - a less experienced pilot was unknowingly canceling out the actions of the captain - through the control system)
4) Can human pilots control the plane if the flight control system is temporarily disconnected?
A proposal (which probably will not fix anything in the next two weeks):
The problem seems to be an increase in the sensitivity of the up-down control in the flight control system. Below a certain threshold, the system is stable and operates normally. However, if the sensitivity (feedback 'gain') increases beyond the stability threshold, there is no way that the plane can be controlled. In that case, the flight control system must be disconnected. Then, you have the Trump situation where you need an MIT engineer to control the plane.
The Black Box should have enough information to diagnose what combination of events causes the up-down control system sensitivity to increase. This information can be fed into a simulation of the flight control system to better understand the situation.
If Boeing or the FAA don't know how to do this, then a group needs to be assembled from engineering universities. A new Richard Feynman needs to be part of this group.
3
@Robert Gustafson The 737-800 has been in service for quite a long time and has a very good safety record. It's the 737 max 8 that is the problem. I would check to see if its a max 8 or an 800. If it is the former, some airlines such as Southwest are allowing passengers to change their flights without penalty.
11
@William Thanks for your reassuring info. There is a bit of confusion in plane designation. There are 737-800, 737 Max 8, and 737 Max 9.
There can be typos too.
After the Oct. 29th crash Trump caused the negations between Boeing and the FAA to be put on hold during his 35 day government shutdown. The date for a resolution was postponed to April.
5
Trump's reaction was a predictable appeal to his base: Attack those book-learn'd "MIT engineers" while making a nostalgic reference to "pilots."
The real story here is how the wolves are guarding the hen house: It is reported that for over a decade the FAA has outsourced it's safety oversight of Boeing to Boeing employees.
I wonder if the USDA, CDC, NTSB, etc are doing similar outsourcing.
14
Southwest and American combined have only about 60 of these aircraft in service, a fraction of their fleets. How hard is it for them to ground these until the real experts (not the lobbyists, politicians or FAA) have resolved the issue? It seems we'll have to depend on the Europeans to do the investigation objectively.
12
Corporate profits ahead of public safety every time these days. It’s so distressing.
16
I am surprised nobody demands the resignation of the CEO of Boeing. If the CEO of any company would issue a product that would kill 300 people in 6 months, whatever the reason, that person should go because he had allowed a flawed product to be certified and produced sooner than it should have, for the sake of quick profits.
22
I suppose that for a behemoth like Boeing there is nothing, no matter how grotesque, that can be described as a "bet the company" decision. But if another Max goes down while this so-called review is pending, they'll be popping the champagne corks at Airbus. Unbelievable.
5
Truly extraordinary. I am open-mouthed by the actions, inactions rather, of the FAA. And believe me, as a Brit watching Brexit, I know what disbelief looks like.
96
@Richard
Upon what evidence would you ground the air craft?
2
@James What evidence? Does the statement "...lead to excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss, and possible impact with terrain." (from the FAA last year, nonetheless!) ring a bell?
2
I said it after the second crash right here in the comments.
Boeing will not be forced to ground this plane because our elected officials are bribed to look the other way.its the same for big pharma, the oil industry, the healthcare industry.
The citizens health,safety or financial health are of no concern of our government. it have been bought.
Taxation without representation.
20
So that is what Trump's tweet was about. He wanted Boeing's CEO to stroke his pride.
9
Call Trump.
Open checkbook for 2020.
Boom.
"The Max 8 is the safest plane ever to fly. Many people are saying that."
17
"Putin told me that he did not interfere"
"Boeing CEO told me that the plane is safe"
And Fox is guarding the hen house...
24
@Henry K.
Don't forget, Trump re: Kim and Otto Warmbier: "He tells me that he didn't know about it, and I will take him at his word".
America has been sold by trump to the highest bidder (donor) and we are all being held hostage. Time to remove this monster.
17
Thoughts and prayers.
Now that Trump and politics have reared his ugly head again there is no question that the FAA must ground all 737 Max aircraft until the problem is resolved. Doesn't Boeing realize that everything Trump comes in contact with is damaged thereby?
8
@RLW
What problem are you referring to?
@James "What problem"? Lack of an explanation for the two similar crashes right after take off as described in all the "media" reports, including this one .
@nytimes is it known whether Muilenburg has reached out to victims’ families for either crash yet? I’d hope Boeing would put people over profits
3
My daughter is taking a trip this summer, and my son will be flying home from competing in a ski race within days...looking at their flights, at least one of them will be on a Max jet. So thanks to Muilenburg putting profit over people, I now get to worry about the safety of their aircraft?
And from this article: "Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators 'will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action' if a safety issue arises." That means a crash on US soil, doesn't it?
People who would vote for Trump again, please, please, please reconsider and see what he's doing, and appreciate how compromised he is even within our own borders. And his hiring "the best people" promise could never be, because he doesn't know any of them.
132
@MountainFamily - I now get to worry about the safety of their aircraft?
Your worry can be eliminated by electing a different flight not using the the MAX aircraft or canceling and going with another airline that doesn't fly them. Of course that doesn't guarantee something won't happen on those flights. But for the price of a change or cancellation fee you can change the future and your worry.
Otherwise you are making the same bet as Chao and the FAA and believe that despite these crashes that nothing is likely to go wrong your kid's flights.
9
@MountainFamily Change their flights.
15
@Marie
I flew one of these last night from Nashville to Dallas via Southwest. I put my trust in the leadership at SWA not the government. I will be on another flight tomorrow.
2
This says it all:
"The company, through its political action committee, funnels millions of dollars into the campaign accounts of lawmakers from both political parties. A list of a year’s worth of political spending on Boeing’s website stretches on for 14 pages, listing campaign contributions to lawmakers ranging from a city councilman in South Carolina to Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, who is now the House speaker."
The Boeing CEO picks up the phone, puts in a call to the President, and then what? Promises to cut a check if the President reaffirms his support for the company? I seem to remember that in the past, when a certain plane was found to have problems, they were grounded until repairs were made.
Are people's lives worth less now? Looks like it.
We need the FAA to act immediately to insure that the "fix" is made. But beyond that we need to legislate Citizens United out of existence, regulate corporate contributions to elected officials, and elect officials who understand that government regulation and oversight is for the protection of all citizens.
4
Sadly, I do not trust that our regulatory agencies will protect us under the eye of the corrupt Trump administration. I also do not trust that justice will be served should one of these planes fall from the sky.
Should that happen, it would be appropriate to charge any executives and government officials involved with the decision to keep dangerous planes flying for profit with first degree murder. It is no different from a bank robber who earns his money endangering bank customers during a robbery whose warning shot ends up killing someone.
To recklessly endanger people for profit is rightfully considered first degree murder in cases of violent crime. That should also be the case for corporate crimes that result in death for profit.
8
I have flown planes, sat right-seat many times and have over a thousand flights as a passenger... I have even skydived out of planes close to a thousand times (USPA Master Skydiver).
My father, father in-law and brother in-law built/designed Boeing aircraft!
In addition, I know Delta 737 pilots!
Over 30% of commercial flights in the US are on 737's. Last month, at any given day, there are 2000 plus 737's flying!
After reading the negative comments by people, I can say with 100% certainty that most people know absolutely ZILCH about the industry!
I would not hesitate flying on a 737... but that's just me. I have more important things to worry about!
1
@The Critic me neither as long as it's not the MAX. Details coming out of the autopilot behaving badly. Who knows what kind of training they was given to pilots, given that the idea was to save the airlines money by not requiring additional training. Obviously if pilots are not aware of the bad behavior or other hidden automations, then they will not know to react in time.
1
@The Critic
It's not the 737. Its the 737 Max of which there are about 40 or 50 flying in the USA.
@ Mr. Earp,
In the United States, when it comes to safety, our 737 Pilots have the final say!
Aircraft Mechanics and Airlines can also ground planes. The FAA can ground planes as well... for anyone to suggest that the FAA is comprised of 100% Republicans just doesn't know what they are talking about.
(For the NYT to imply/suggest/infer that Boeing's call to the President somehow influenced the registered Democrats employed at the FAA is irresponsible.)
With my background, experience and training in the Aviation industry, I have 100% confidence with US Pilots training!
I would get on a 737 Max 8 and fly without hesitation!
Now with that said, I do not have that confidence with third world airlines!
1
Well, as long as corporate profits are safe, who cares about the safety of the flying public? We have to have priorities!
(sarcasm)
3
I do not think Boeing has enough money to pay for the $Trillion in lawsuits that would come their way if a single 737 Max 8 crashes in the USA, and negligence is proven from the CEO, and the President.
3
One wonders if Mr. Muilenburg offered the Deal-Maker-In-Chief a further (illusory) discount on the new Air Force One. It’s all about the bottom line for both of them, apparently....
1
I hope that the major takeaway of the Trump era is that the dark underbellies of American society - racism, fear, greed, corporate welfare at the expense of human wellbeing - are exposed and ultimately eradicated.
I love this country, and I know we are capable of incredible things. I'm hoping that we can purge the toxicity that infects all levels of our society so we can actually be the Great country we proclaim ourselves to be.
Hopefully us hitting rock bottom allows us to bounce back stronger than before.
I have faith.
4
"Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises."
Isn't it enough that two planes have fallen without a known reason?
5
The best regulatory apparatus money can buy!
2
Trump's reasoning - "What do I care? I have my own airplane."
4
Would that appeal have come from Dennis Boeing?
1
How is this any different than the cheating parents using influence to get their kids into college
2
I'll bet this wins Trump plenty of frequent flier miles.
1
Why doesn’t the article mention UA’s active fleet of B737 Maxes?
This is America! Profit before people!
2
You've got to be kidding! Regulators absolutely need to be completely separate from the entity they regulate. Duh. Fox watching the hen house comes to mind. Mortgage crisis too. How stupid are these people. Or is it just greed?
6
The American Era is over. Its demise started with Reagan, continued with Gingrich, reduced to idiocy with Bush 2 and to collapse with Trump. How very sad.
9
I loved Paragraph 13 with it's never-ending list of who is raking in the "Bucks From Boeing".
Time to end all tax subsidies and exemptions for these corporations.
If Medicaid people have to WORK for their government assistance, then I want to see Dennis A. Muilenburg out there in an orange jumpsuit picking up all that roadside trash.
Given how much $$$ there is involved in that revolving door of him giving $$$$ to politicians and then the politicians giving it right back - only this time it comes from the tax-payer because Muilenburg's "contribution" is long-ago gone into an off-shore account... so now it is the tax-payer footing the bill .....
Well, at least now we know the name of the man to sue when our loved ones wind up crashing into his sewer.....
Daniel A. Muilenburg.
4
As long as the Boeing CEO ise willing to pay to play they are ok with crooked Donald.
Why do you think he is being investigated by the NY attorney general?
2
Please help me maximize shareholder value!
2
Airline disasters? The FAA and other regulatory agencies that are intended to provide oversight for the protection of “We, the People,” are daily undermined by the eternal Republican demand for “small government” and de-regulation. So it comes as no surprise at all that the CEO of Boeing grabs up his phone, speed-dials the president, and practically demands—not asks; not requests; not suggests; not even begs—that the FAA keep these Max 8 death traps in the air. I can imagine part of the exchange:
Boeing CEO: “We gotta keep ‘em up, Mr. President. This terrible publicity is killing our listings on the exchanges.”
No. 45: “Well, the people killed were not Americans; ya know, some Indonesians and some Ethiopians and some Kenyans. None of them count.”
Boeing CEO: “Well...but...do you feel me on the FAA?” If you call them in, I mean, it might take years for us to put this behind us.”
No. 45: “Don’t worry. My people do what I tell ‘em to do. Tell your lobbyists to lean hard on the Republicans on The Hill. I’ve got your back.”
Boeing CEO: “Thanks, Mr. President. We’ll get a check in the mail for your re-election campaign.”
No. 45: “For how much?”
2
Trump should not be involved in the decision making process of the FAA. Boeing's CEO should not be able to influence the outcome in any way otherwise the integrity of the FAA's role in air travel safety is undermined.
2
Well we know Dennis cares more about his company's stock performance than people dying. That hardly makes him unique among CEOs but thanks again for holding up the standard Denny - we might have all forgotten.
That the US and one of its most impressive companies is the laggard in exhibiting an abundance of caution is another modern day embarrassment that never would have happened before any time in this country's history. We are driving in the dark with no headlights on and no one at the wheel. This is just the latest example.
5
Boeing has an anti stall system in those planes. That system could result in a nose dive. And that system can’t be manually overridden. Boeing sent out a warning to airlines about the system a week after the first crash. Apparently some pilots are unaware of the system or are not trained how to recover if the system engages.
Older 737 Max don’t have the anti stall system. So when the system engages it took these pilots by surprise. But going to manual override didn’t make things better. It could have made things worse. Now they are completely confused because the aircraft isn’t responding to manual override as the pilots are used to. Can’t believe this happened twice.
6
FAA and also the FDA by now have zero credibility. It’s obvious that they are run and payed for by the corporations they are supposed to regulate.
8
And so it goes. Political influence allowing the rules to be bent to benefit the airline and defang the FAA when it comes to certifying the safety of their planes that we all use. Now that the chickens have come home to roost on this cosy relationship and everyone else except us says something is wrong and planes should be grounded we are the exception. And then a personal appeal by the Boeing CEO to Trump to not ground their planes that is listened to rather than rejected - this is too much!
4
So our U.S. airline industry benefitted from the "very cozy relationship" between Boeing and the FAA, similar to the Genoa bridge collapse where the Benneton family's companies managed the maintenance AND the safety inspections.
“The manufacturer essentially becomes both the manufacturer and the regulator, because of the lack of the ability of government to do the job.”
Seems that's what happens when huge tax breaks underfund essential independent government functions of oversight. And big money is allowed to oversee themselves. God help us.
4
The problem of independent auditing of a company, whether it be for safety or financial (accounting) objectives, is no doubt aggravated by the growing presence of millenials in the work force. The vast majority of these individuals seem to have been nurtured on group-think (everything is done in "teams"). They have virtually no ability to think independently. Above all, they have been trained to never, ever question a computer!
In the case of the 737 Max, the entire project should have been scrapped and re-started as soon as Boeing "discovered" that the new engines that were the essence of the improvement to the old 737 models were too large, and would hit the runway! (How anybody could have ignorred this at the start is a typical effect of group-think!) By shifting the engine placement on the wing forward in order to raise the engine further from the ground (all according to the outstanding NYT reporting), the plane's balance was adversely affected. Consequently, its inherent proclivity for stalling during take-offs and other maneuvers.
The most desireable outcome of all this would be to scrap the faddish infatuation with teams (teams have their place, but only as an adjunct to intelligent, disciplined minds working on specific assignments). Even a millenial mind, if assigned to the attachment of the new engine to the old plane, probably would have realized that it was going to be too large.
4
@red sox 9 yes guy, it's the millennials' fault.
For crying out loud...
1
Boeing needs new leadership if their CEO asked Donald Trump to express confidence in the safety of their aircraft. Donald Trump knows less about airplanes than a 10 year old who makes plastic models. Trump is the last person from whom to expect an honest opinion about anything. There is a question of Mr. Muilenberg's judgment if he asks Trump for help.
12
So - now he is selling the lives of American air passengers for his friends. What does he have to do for "his" people to see that we don't matter to him at all?
8
It seems that the gov’t shutdown may have played a part in delaying Boeing’s software fix.
45 sure likes having his cake and eating it as well.
6
At the beginning of the jet age, both the US and Britain wanted to be first. The British rushed ahead, got their plane into the air first, and had planes crash that killed many people. We made sure our plane - a Boeing product - was safe before it took to the air.
Even though we weren't first, we won the jet race. The Boeing 707 to become the the most popular jet plane with airlines around the world while the Comet is, today, known only as the thing you occasionally see in the night sky.
But now, apparently, the safety culture of the US vs. Europe has flipped.
BTW, how much did the shut down play a role? I understand Boeing had a software fix for these planes but it was delayed being installed by the shut down.
3
The FAA should at this point be thinking about its own credibility instead of Boeing's which it is clearly beholden to.
It does not look good to the rest of the world when you're driving in the opposite lane telling everyone else the other cars are wrong.
11
Behold the true America. It is all on display here.
An industry (air travel), supposedly regulated (by the FAA), but in reality, the industry all but runs the regulator.
Unlimited money flowing through lobbyists and PAC's to the Congress and Senate that is supposed to oversee and fund the regulating body, thus turning the regulators and their supposed overseers into prostitutes for the airline industry.
It's all such a comfortable, cozy relationship, for them. Not for the airline passengers, pilots, ground crews, controllers, etc.
You only see the conflict when safety intervenes. Then Americans see their real worth. Nothing. American airline passengers are 100% expendable. And the cozy comfortable machine keeps the risky jets in the air. Even when every other country grounds the jets, for safety.
9
Was there a quid pro quo arrangement between Trump and the head of Boeing? I feel less reassured about the safety of the plane after Trump has said it’s safe. I agree that modern planes are complex but I hope Trump doesn’t strip away safety rules and regulations because they seem too complicated to Trump.
4
US based airlines should pull them from rotation to add some heft to the other countries and to help their image. There are not that many flown in the US right now and why take the risk?
7
The FAA position is that crashing of two planes for no apparent reason is OK, but crashing for a known reason is not?
Boeing elected to save money by using complex automatic stability correction instead of major fuselage alterations and re-accreditation. Unfortunately, the complexity of their cheaper system makes the system hard to test and failures hard to trace.
Little did we know that FAA protocol supports systems that defy examination, because planes will not be grounded based upon accidents, but only when the exact nature of flaws are definitively identified.
9
It's not the call from Boeing. We expect that. It's the response from Trump. Tragically, we've come to expect that, too.
16
Why am I not surprised that a phone call to Trump was the reason the planes were not grounded in the US, when virtually the rest of the world grounded them? I had already guessed that would happen,
12
It is unclear why FAA and Boeing has not made an across the board decision to ground all 737 Max 8’s and find out exactly why two new 737 Max 8’s crashed in the last six months.
DOT’s secretary says regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises. Boeing said last night that it had “full confidence” in the 737 Max 8, that FAA had taken no action, and that “based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators.”
These decisionmaking behind these statements does not reflect responsible guardianship of public safety nor a sound regulator-manufacturer relationship.
Boeing is in a moment now. A key, all-important moment for a business. Does it value short term profits or long term integrity.
Tylenol faced this crux point years ago, and made the right decision, the correct decision. And they didn't waver nor hem and haw about it.
What will FAA and Boeing do now?
5
@Ed
IN fact, Ed--and I know you know this, it is perfectly clear why those planes have not been grounded: $$$$$$$.
Lost in all this is that countries followed China's lead, not what the US/FAA are saying. After China, Singapore, India and Europe followed. FAA is seen as compromised and too close to Boeing. Trump said government shutdown will save money and will have no consequences. FAA did not work for 5 weeks delaying a solution. Boeing did nothing either. Another data point not covered in the US media is that the Ethiopian government released some of the communication from the recording of the pilots to the control tower about the problems they were having and needing immediate authorization to come back to the airport for landing.It seems the problems were similar to the LION air crash.
8
@Ben, also lost is the fact is that pilots from those countries aren't as well trained.
Ground the planes when evidence points to the need they should be grounded, not because of political or journalistic pressure.
For the NYT, you should do a better job reporting the facts instead of trying to whip everyone into a frenzy.
1
@tom wilson, how do you know they aren't as well trained?
Trump putting his political agenda ahead of the American people. Glad he is consistent!
16
I don't know if the plane should be grounded or not, but the possibility that the FAA decision process is being influenced by Our Dear Leader undercuts my confidence in the FAA.
21
@Paul That doesn't help, of course, but I am even more concerned that the process appears to be very much in the hands of former or current Boeing employees.
2
The 737 Max 8 makes about 8,500 flights per day and is one of the most popular planes flown. The only correlation is the world's most popular plane was the plane involved two crashes, yet even here in the NYT, before the facts are known, presumably educated readers are readily engaged in, for lack of a better description, hysteria.
1
@Paulo
And two of those 8,500 flights per day crash every six months.Pick one...
4
Which part of nearly every other developed nation grounding flights, premium airlines not owning this model of airplane, by-passing full regulation/inspections via grandfather clauses, and pilots concerned about not getting proper instructions on control updates equates to hysteria? This seems like legitimate concern by a populace that isn’t sure the regulatory bodies are properly and impartially regulating critical safety issues and protecting its citizens.
4
@Paulo
The apologists and shills want you to know that commerce and profit are more important than life. And they want you to feel silly for thinking otherwise.
Choice A: Ground the planes until the problem is solved. BTW - two crashes does indicate a problem. And there will be no further crashes of that plane.
Choice B: Keep commerce moving and profits flowing by flying the planes while the problems are discovered and rectified. If there is another incident in meantime your loss of life is just a chance Paulo and others are willing to take. For profit they are willing to bet your life.
Are you?
If these planes had crashed in the United States I'm sure they'd be grounded here, too.
3
Of course.
So Boeing wants trump, a man who thinks Frederick Douglas is still alive, to give his stamp of approval on the 737 Max 8?!?!?
I don't think you Boeing guys have thought this through.
11
3 strikes and you're out, Boeing. It's now 0-2. Do the right thing.
6
I never agree with Trump, but I agree with him this time. The pilot needs to fly the plane and not a computer. Now if Trump had any leadership qualities, he would request the FAA to ground these planes.
1
Airlines and this company have placed profit over safety. As consumers we should remember and henceforth avoid products from Boeing and fly Airbus whenever possible till Boeing apologizes for their misdeeds, well-known in the pilot community. And after they replace they CEO, who placed profit over safety —and in such a disservice to his stockholders as clearly any short term gains are not worth the disgraceful loss of reputation to the company.
3
Whether or not the call to the president is influencing the FAA's decision to keep the planes in the air, it certainly has the appearance of doing so. While the rest of the world grounds the planes until they are determined to be safe, the US continues to allow them in the air. Influence and money once again overrule the safety of the common man and woman in this country.
4
Poor Boeing. And flying is such a wonderful experience for 95% of the flying public: roomy seats with plenty of legroom, delicious dinners served hot, free drinks, free blankets, no charge for luggage. And the prices! So competitive!
Hardly.
I am so relieved to read that Boeing had "full confidence" in the 737 Max 8. No need to err on the side of passenger safety here. Why wait the 72 hours for the black box data to be analyzed? Might cut into corporate profits, no?
12
Every time one of these planes flies, the lives of the passengers and crew are put at risk. But I suppose that doesn't matter with so much money on the line. The lack of caution by the FAA and carelessness of this administration would be shocking if it were another administration...
3
Don't worry about the safety of these airplanes. Boeing has reassured President Trump and now he has complete confidence in their air worthiness.
And wait until you see Trump's 2021 inaugural with all the funding they added to that event. This is obviously going to be a big win-win for everyone.
1
@Carl Hultberg Won't be a big win for anyone on the next plane that nosedives into the ground, will it.
@Ken: No, it wouldn't be funny if it wasn't satire.
What's the harm in grounding all the planes doing a complete inspection and issuing a certificate of safety before they fly again?
Yes, the company stocks may take a beating and sales may suffer but it's good for the general public and raises the level of confidence to get back on these planes.
2
A president whose loyalties are to his own business interests is allied with corporate leaders and billionaires against the interests of safety.
This is why so many people warned us of having a businessperson in the presidency, especially one with a long record of greed, bankruptcy, and dirty deals. The wealthy elites are loyal to money, not countries, not people.
Everyone should listen to today's Democracy Now segment featuring renowned consumer advocate Ralph Nader, who lost a relative on the recent Boeing plane crash.
And we must also remember: socialism created Boeing. Like Lockheed, TRW, Honeywell, Martin Marietta and so many who are on the Pentagon's payroll, these corporations make war machinery and reap billions in taxpayer-dollar profits.
The planes should be grounded worldwide, and Boeing officials prosecuted criminally.
4
@Steve Davies, it was raw capitalism that created Boeing, not socialism.
5
Buying access in Trump America- spas and airplanes. Fun times. We are just pawns in the rich and famous world.
4
So the reason for this odd, U.S. hold out can be traced to Trump. We should have known.
3
Trump has blood on his hands. His action or inactions on the border causing death, lack of gun control laws, climate change and its disastrous effects now and in the future and much more.
Now he is too cowed by a large corporate lobby to do the right thing. Let's hope that a Boeing 737 Max doesn't go down in the US. I will not fly one and I assume thoughtful passengers will not as well.
5
I can just hear Trump saying, “I spoke with Boeing’s CEO, and he told me, very strongly, that there is nothing wrong with the 737, that they are very, very safe airplanes, tremendously safe, and I take him at his word.”
10
From corporatism to fscism, only a few steps.
Besides, Boeing killing its business, textbook approach how not to act.
4
Yes, well if it's that safe, Trump should take a ride on one.
5
I bet we'll discover in the coming weeks that the trump appointee at The FAA doesn't believe in gravity.
5
I am not sure if I should scream or laugh out loud maniacally.
Now I know where the Avionics Presidential Tweet came from.
The thought that this President, who doesn’t know avionics from a hole in the ground, makes a statement and comment to the complexity of avionics technology, and rhapsodizes for the good old days of the Douglas DC3, is a perfect analog for how upside down this country is at this moment.
Question? What will the CEO & the President do now if one 737 Max crashes in the USA?
3
Truth Is True,
I don't think Trump wrote that tweet.
Although it reflects his moronic thinking, it's free of spelling errors and caps.
God forbid that one of these 737s craters in here in the US, taking hundreds of lives with it. But if it does, that would truly be the end of Donald J. Trump.
1
Boeing has "reach in the highest levels of government"? I am shocked!!
2
Call the president for what? Planes are falling from the sky and Trump is to provide us confidence? Is this a joke? Might as well call the Joker of Gotham...
7
should one of these planes crash in the US, i strongly urge the contemplation of initiating a governmental task force of some kind.
1
@young ed
nice sarcasm, young ed.
contemplation-2 years
initiating - 1 year
choosing make-up of task force-3 years
work of task force-5 years
and so on.
Please post the flight information for all flights using this plane. Let’s make sure that if someone gets on one of these planes, that they know the risk they are taking.
As for Trump. Having a rich guy call him and ask for a royal favor is exactly the one part of the presidency he likes.
5
“Yet the decision in Europe means roughly two-thirds of the Boeing Max 8 aircraft in the world have been pulled from use in the two days since the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines flight that killed 157 people.”
I sure hope the U.S. is right. I would hate to see that two-thirds of the world’s airports have made the right decision while our airports have not.
1
Oh well then, he expressed his confidence to the President. Putin was very powerful in his denials. The South Korean Dictator didn't know a thing about the bad things happening in his prison. The Murderous Prince from Saudi Arabia knew nothing about the action of his personal security folks hacking apart the body of a journalist working for the Post. Anyone see a pattern here.
Necessary repairs were delayed for five weeks because of the shutdown. Convenient excuse.
Never worry, Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan is a former Boeing lobbyist I'm sure he's influencing Trump to do the right thing...lol Almost said that with a straight face.
So just for fun, anyone know how much Boeing gives ( has given) Ms Chao's husband for his reelection campaigns. The President himself taught me that contributions to the wife of an FBI agent influences his investigation; isn't the same for the former airline exec and wife of the Trump toady in charge of the majority in the Senate?
It is an ongoing criminal enterprise that has once again cost people's lives, among them Americans.
4
My husband and I are flying on Friday on Southwest. He refused to fly on a Max 8 so I called to check what equipment we were assigned to. On one leg of the flight it was a Max 8. I just said we won’t fly on a Max 8. Can you do something? Sure enough we were changed to a flight that left an hour later with no change fee. Smart move for Southwest. As my husband said it doesn’t guarantee that nothing will happen, we both feel better and because of how accommodating they were, we will continue to fly Southwest!
4
What's wrong with this sentence:
"The FAA said that it is continuing with its review and that the planes could keep flying."
Shouldn't any responsible, sane agency say, "while the FAA continues its review, flights on this aircraft will be suspended until we are sure they are safe."
9
Has anyone heard our President say or issue any message of condolence to the victims and families of those killed in either crash? Even excluding the fact that American citizens died last weekend, not one attempt to even fake a heart-felt message of sympathy or that America will do everything it can to make sure air travel is safe for all flyers regardless of their nationality.
Boeing is hopeful that the crashes can be blamed on pilot error, but thankfully the incidents in american planes did not result in wrecks-but there is public record of pilots reporting similar behavior flying American Airline and Southwest planes.
Appears it is going to take a crash from one of those two airlines to get a response other than damage control.
6
And there you have America folks.....land of the free, home of the corporate profit
7
Here we go again and typical of the USA. Money first! Why can't we stop with all the greed and start caring about our citizens? Shameful!
4
A question for all those who think corporate America values human life over profit;
Who bathes and dresses you in the morning?
5
Not corporations last I checked...
Then:
“God is my Co-pilot”
Now:
“Einstein is not my Co-Pilot”
(and even if he was, I’d still be the smartest guy in the cockpit)
PS
M personally screens all my prospective co-pilots, these days...
Especially for the helicopter...
Actually, think she should take up 'copter flying – already makes aviator sunglasses look real good...
1
America is the most stubborn and greedy country in the world.
5
Boeing has a major, major crisis on its hands. Many people are nervous to fly even when things are going well. If senior management chooses to put profits over safety this crisis could sink Boeing very quickly. Boeing still has plenty of other airworthy planes to fly while this investigation goes on. I have always enjoyed and trusted flying Boeing aircraft. I recently flew on the 777 and it was one of the best flights I ever experienced. This is clearly the type of crisis where safety and caution carries the day and not greed, profits or lobbying interests. Let's see what Boeing ultimately decides.
4
When Ted Cruz, the beast of the GOP, wants to ground planes, you know there is something here. It is no surprise that corporations are cozy with legislators and regulators. This is how business has always been done in the US and will continue to be done. Trump's government will not shut down the planes because Boeing investments in his campaign will possibly be altered.
Consumers should avoid companies that use these planes. That is the only way to make protest happen in America against capitalist greed.
7
@Anthony
American Airlines and Southwest use this plane.
Choose a different airline when you fly if you have choices.
As for Ted Cruz, both of these airlines depend upon his state of Texas for profits.
That's what matters to Ted Cruz.
1
One of the things we've been told over the years is that an airplane wants to fly. That left to its own devices a plane will want to fly straight and level. While that presumes a well designed air plane it's been the basis of private aircraft and passenger planes that favors stability over maneuverability of say a fighter or stunt plane. A plane wants to fly is what those who fear flying are told. Its even given as a means of saving a plane under some conditions. Let go, let the airplane fly.
Now experts are telling us that in the 737MAX that's not true. The engines are so big and heavy that they had to mounted too far out on the wings to clear the ground during take off and landing. The result is a passenger aircraft that fundamentally unstable. It no longer wants to fly. It has to be worked to be kept in the air.
A degree of public trust and confidence and comfort came from the idea that airplanes inherently wanted to fly and that something had to go wrong in order for them to fail. With this aircraft the equation changes. If the public loses trust and confidence than the industry will suffer because Boeing took an expedient route rather than doing the right thing in the design of this aircraft or building a new one without the compromised design.
6
As the son of an aerospace scientist, I know that Boeing’s engineers have a better sense of the risks than the general public does. That said, there is no way I would fly in one of these 737s until this issue is clearly investigated and resolved.
When people in Chicago were killed by poisoned Tylenol tablets back in the 1980s, the company famously pulled its product country-wide, disposed of it and then re-launched with elaborate safety packaging. They put public safety and their own reputation ahead of short-term profits. Surely Boeing executives are aware of this most famous case, but apparently they have not learned its lessons.
8
@Fintan -- @Fintan-- The Tylenol case is a good example; they were capsules, by the way. A man devised a devious way to murder his wife with poison. He purchased Tylenol capsules, took them home, emptied them and refilled the capsules with cyanide. He then returned to a number of stores and placed the packages back on the shelf. This is what led to the tamper-proof packaging we have today. The Tylenol company (McNeil at the time) took control of the situation and months later the Chicago Police cracked the case and arrested the murderer. The company put the safety of the public first. Grounding the planes after the Indonesian crash was what Boeing needed to do. Get out in front of the problem, put safety first and always first, then solve the problem so it NEVER happens again. What is likely to happen now is that Boeing has a lot of explaining to do regarding why the planes were sold with a faulty system that PREVENTS a pilot from taking control of the aircraft away from the automated anti-stall system. The human sees the plane diving at high speed toward the ground and cannot overcome the mechanism that is pushing the nose of the plane down. Imaging your "lane-keeping-assist" feature preventing you from making a quick accident avoidance maneuver. Doesn't happen. The car is programmed to yield to human input. What a concept!! Safety first and always first.
The Family Trump has always been extremely concerned with heir worthiness.
6
My suggestion would be for Trump to use a 737 Max 8 as Air Force One just to demonstrate how much confidence he has in them. The head of Boeing, Head of the FAA and the Transportation Secretary should do the same.
20
@Jared I suggest they all fly together!
4
'Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises.'
Given there have been two catastrophic plane crashes, I would say the safety problem has arisen. I think much of the world agrees with me because they are grounding all these planes until the problem is found.
On the other hand, the United States will not ground the planes until the problem is found. The only place in the world the 737 Max 8 will fly is North America. If there is another crash, it will be in North America.
The president, Elaine Chao, the FAA and Boeing are betting our lives that the plane is safe to fly. I think that is unconscionable.
17
What kind of a plane does Denis Muilenburg fly on? And the rest of the Boeing executive team?
When the flight attendants don't want to get on the plane, neither do I.
8
Our grandsons are flying out to spend spring break with us---on a Southwest flight that uses a Max 8.
If Southwest doesn't ground these planes and make other arrangements it will be the last time any member of our family will ever use Southwest.
....and we have used Southwest for 75% of our flying.
17
If we can pull every head of Romaine lettuce out of grocery stores due to E-coli contamination resulting in less than a 100 people getting sick, and several dying (not to make light of the seriousness), why are these planes not being grounded?
Boeing says they're working on a fix for a problem they won't admit exists, and we're supposed to believe them when they've "fixed" it? Nope.
If I were pilot or crew assigned to this plane, I'd be extremely uncomfortable, taking a couple hundred souls up, including my own, wondering if this will be the last time.
Playing roulette with lives in order to maintain profit, and happy shareholders is criminal. Not surprising sad to say, with The White house as a leading example.
My heartfelt condolences to the families who've lost their loved ones.
18
I will never fly a 737 Max 8. I urge customer of flying to boycott riding this unsafe plane.
13
I will be traveling by air in June. I will be sure to research and not purchase an airline ticket until I know I won’t be on one of those flying death traps, those flying coffins.
3
Trump's people fly private jets, not Max 8's. Thus, no need for concern here, US Aviation...
5
This is a high consequence accident with unknown risk. To say these planes are safe after two similar accidents killing hundreds of people is nothing short of criminal behavior. Boeing will find that a crisis of confidence will make that statement one that they will live to regret.
8
Dennis A. Muilenburg can demonstrate his confidence in the plane by spending the next two weeks flying aboard all 58 planes he wants the rest of us to trust. The President should do the same.
12
I’m sorry - did you say that Trump, the guy who can’t even get climate change straight, is now directing decisions about airplane safety?
11
"Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises."
What is Secretary Chao referring to when she mentions a, "...safety issue"? Does she mean another crash?
15
@L
Don't forget that Chao has long been in the pockets of the businesses she supposedly has been hired to monitor. She's just as corrupt as her husband, McConnell.
5
Knew Trump had to have his sleazy hand in the decision not to ground the Boeing 737 Max 8.
Trump was probably promised a new personal plane from Boeing and I bet they threw in a helicopter for good measure.
6
The convenient "circle of friends" that run our country are so corrupt that they don't care about anything except their status. The web of interconnections between Elaine Chau, Mitch McConnel, Trump, Mulienberg, and the leaderless FAA, ignore the safety of all people flying these planes. They are the cabal of the corrupt, and should all be forced to resign.
6
Software fix? Hmm... so the delivered planes were operated on a beta version? We are not talking about computer crashes, right?!
3
If this was an Airbus, Boeing would be the first to demand that the aircraft be grounded. It’s all about the money, as usual. That explains why Boeing, the manufacturer, and Southwest and American, the two airlines with the most Max 8s, are the ones screaming the loudest in support of not grounding the aircraft. Money above safety is the rule in this country which is run by corporations. Let’s all stay away from this aircraft if at all possible.
7
Don't drain the swamp. It will cushion the impact of the Max 8 when it augers into it.
8
So this is what it comes down to. Selling the safety of our citizens for a quick political buck. Though it was ever thus (see, e.g., slavery), it continues to shock the conscience of some of us. Especially as we'd like to think we've evolved from those crass, mercenary times. As has become abundantly clear since the takeover of our democracy by the kleptocrats, clearly, we haven't.
4
Boeing is fully responsible in this tragedy and fiasco. Really? They have 100% confidence in their aircraft? Yet they're trying to release a software patch? So what's the patch for, then? Aesthetics?? In a similar vein, do they then imply that this was entirely human error? On two brand new aircraft, and at least two other incidents when pilots were forced to turn off the autopilot system in question? This is a disgrace for the US, top to bottom. Passengers should start refusing to fly on these planes and suing Boeing and the airlines for irresponsibly forcing them to fly on them. Once again, we leave it up to the legal system to get involved and resolve the matter.
11
“In 2005, the regulator shifted its approach for how it delegated authority outside the agency, creating a new program through which aircraft manufacturers like Boeing could choose their own employees to be the designees and help certify their planes.”
This is absolutely ridiculous. If manufacturers are now effectively giving the “all clear” on their own planes, what’s the point of the FAA? I thought they were supposed to help protect the public.
9
@touk Very similar to what was done to inspections of meat-packing companies under Reagan, when the inspectors were allowed to be employees of the company.
1
Reading this story certainly covers all the bases for what is wrong in government. Lobbyists, donations to inaugural celebrations for either party, FAA workers with a stake in decisions, multiple donations to political candidates and campaigns, tax breaks and shady private deals. Meanwhile, any concerns by unions and concerns for citizen customers take a back seat to profits. The bright spot, Trump thinks things should be simpler. Let's go back to propellor planes and we are halfway to AOC's vision and rail travel.
11
The moment Boeing admits a flaw in the 737 Max 8, they would be hit with class action and individual law suits from the families of those that perished on the two flights. Any admission of fault will likely only occur after congressional hearings.
This seems to be a trend.
11
Boeing's failure to ground immediately all the Max-8 planes as a precautionary measure ensures enough lawsuits to come that could well bury the giant corporation. This is Crisis Management without management.
10
I don't often fly, but I hope those that do will boycott those planes. I know it must be difficult sometimes but when the airlines who use the most of them start losing money, then maybe their lobby will win Trump over. Gee, I wonder if Mitch and his wife are willing to fly on 737s and Trump family as well, bet you they don't. Be interesting if someone could track the Republican members of Congress and see if they avoid those planes as well and take a sudden fancy to driving everywhere and taking trains and buses.
7
There's virtually no oxygen left in the swamp. And no concern whatsoever for American lives. It's all about the money. Money. Money. Money. The level of corruption goes so deep if we do not do something radical, we're doomed. Note that Elizabeth Warren and Richard Blumenthal, Mitt Romney and Ted Cruz oppose allowing this plane to fly. I wouldn't want to be a Southwest or American employee today.
16
We have all been wondering what the outcome of the Trump's incompetence and corruption will be when a crises hits. This. Deregulation + private interests + lobbying = public safety disaster. But there is no comfort in saying "told you so", isn't there?
3
How much more proof is needed to reveal the bottomless depravity of not only our influence-for-sale president, but more broadly a system of socialism for the ultra wealthy? Please Mr. President, we employ 150k + worker bees, and look at our equity growth.
Air passengers at risk? Let's measure it against the downside of calling a timeout.
4
Boeing didn't call Trump to reassure him, they called to alert him that Boeing stock is taking a nose dive. Air travelers are at the mercy of a very small number of companies who make planes. As consumers who depend on flying to earn a living we can't just say, "I'm not buying a seat on that brand of plane." We risk losing our jobs and everything we have worked for for ourselves and our families, up to now, or risk our lives by flying. Deregulation may have helped the market to bring down ticket prices, but the market has not helped increase plane manufacturers and that's what at stake. Government helps profits but is conspicuously absent when it comes to helping us develop new and better manufacturers.
7
@Maxine and Max
Not every airline flies the Boeing 737 Max.
Change your flight to an airline that does not use it .
Southwest is getting so many complaints that customers are being allowed to switch to a different aircraft, all fees waived.
1
Personally appealed to arguably the most incompetent, uneducated, lazy and uninterested President of the modern age? What in God’s name has happened to this country? The President’s job, if anything, is to insure the safety of our citizens by appointing competent and ethical folks to run our administrative agencies not play favorites and games w our safety.
19
Of course Trump will bow to Boeing. He bows to the word of dictators, too. He believes what he wants to believe, regardless of facts.
9
Commander in Chief Bone Spurs now knows that planes, like health care, are complicated and not easy to fly, even by that really smart computer software. But, he'll let it do the flying anyway because he got a $1M donation from Boeing, and oh by the way, when Stevie Mnuchin and his be-scarfed beauty fly with Jared and Ivanka, they are flying MDs, and when the Commander flies to Palm Beach in Air Force One, its not in a little 737 Max 8.
So, to all the little people out there, the Commander proclaims "Let them eat,..I mean fly...737 Max 8s."
Lets hope there won't be any further blood on their hands and Boeing is actually working on this, particularly if Elaine isn't.
8
Is the safety of the American public now at risk because of the "cozy relationship" between Boeing's chief executive Dennis Muilenburg, this president, and the F.A.A.?
It should come as no surprise that Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao, will just go along with anything Mr. Trump says.
As Mitch McConnell's wife, who would expect anything else?
Americans. Better drive, or stay home.
13
In addition to the massive amount of money and lobbying that Boeing does itself as both a commercial aircraft corporation and the 30% of its much higher profit business as a ‘defense contractor’ (or “Merchants of Death” as Bertrand Russell called the big war weapons makers), Boeing — along with all of the largest military weapons makers in the U.S., are the greatest beneficiaries of the NRA’s multi-market “messaging” for all guns and larger weapons systems in the sly advertising implied and fear-inducing deeper message of — “The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a (bigger/faster) gun”.
Commercial jet plane makers, like Boeing, may well be predominantly makers of convenient and fast travel for business and personal pleasure — (ignoring, of course, the ‘negative externality costs’ of high altitude contrail pollution) — however, the CEOs and senior management of many major corporations (and particularly those which depend for their highest profit margin sectors on government business) often seek close relationships with corruptable political players, like faux-Emperor Trumpius, and others like him).
While Ike warned of the Military Industrial Complex, and JFK tangled with other less visible “Quiet American” portions of the MIC, both for these earlier presidents of the relatively honest post WWII political sector would likely be both surprised and ashamed of the level of integration and deceit in all sectors of this 21st century Empire.
4
Why should we expect the FAA to be an exception? Does not the FDA accomodate Big Pharm? Unwarranted risk of injury and death takes a distant second to profit. Remember the Robber Barons and their ancestors on slave plantation. Welcome to America.
5
Not surprising that all the TDS'ers are going after the President.
Textbook example of regulatory capture.
https://g.co/kgs/wM3fj7
Profits before people....the new MAGA country.
8
Profits come before lives for Boeing and Trump.
3
Why is Copa Airlines and their fleet of 32 737 Max 8 and 3 of the potentially even more suspect Max 9 not being mentioned? This is the majority of COPA'S fleet and not surprisingly, there is also no mention of any deviation of service. Please, NYT let's get a full and accurate list of airlines still flying these planes!
2
Elaine Chao married to Mitch McConnell + Boeing Lobby = Trump Administration. You do the math. If you chose corruption as the answer, you are correct.
11
Boeing: The true enemy of people worldwide.
2
The most glaring example yet of how far we have fallen in this country.......!
3
Crooks rule the United States, and when caught glaringly breaking the Law they are given a slap in the hand. Meanwhile "FBI" arrests parents who following this Country's traditions paid College officers to get their children admitted Why do you arrests the persons who just did what this system demands from them instead of changing the system??
3
Consumers should place pressure on the airlines by raising concerns at ticketing, the gate, etc. Communicate with the other passengers. Tell them they're about to board a craft that crashes yet Trump won't put their safety over the sizable campaign donation he's been promised.
2
In the U.S, Profits over safety and lives prevail. If the FAA won’t ground these planes than the American companies flying them should until a full investigation is completed.
Back in November after the Indonesia crash there were a couple of pilots en route to the US citing that these planes would take a nose dip after engaging ‘autopilot’ and that the plane would attempt to descend instead of ascending. According to these pilots they switch off the ‘autopilot’ to regain control and reported the problem issues
First crash in Indonesia should have been a red flag; the problems reported by pilots a double red flag; and now the crash in Ethiopia a triple red flag and yet these planes are still flying in the US and Canada. In addition, Trump’s government shutdown which impacted many FAA safety and inspection services did not help.
13
I do not understand the behavior of Boeing and the FAA as well as the political leadership in this case: The money lost by grounding the planes is nothing compared to the damage to the reputation of the entire system they have managed to achieve in only one day! They obviously do not understand that they are gambling their biggest asset away right now: the stellar safety reputation of the leading aircraft manufacturer and the air-traffic system in this country
12
Since landing rights are denied this aircraft in so many countries , it will be flown on American domestic routes only ..This increases the chance of a tragedy in the USA. Example : SwissAir flight NYC to Geneva ...Now that SwissAir jet will only operate on USA domestic routes . Boeing is calling the shots here ! Giving corporations more control over the safety and pollution they cause has never worked out well yet ! For citizens , that is .
10
"Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises." Translation: "if an American plane goes down, we'll think about grounding them."
This is what oligarchy looks like, friends. Your lives placed at risk to protect the plutocrats.
37
@SteveZodiac
The only flaw in your theory is that the plutocrats also fly. It doesn't matter. Even if they're willing to take the risk the public as a whole shouldn't have to.
They fly private jets.
2
Just another example of agency capture by those under regulation. The only thing working perfectly is the revolving door.
12
Since when is it appropriate for a company leader to contact the president to support his/her product and influence safety decisions.
Whether this aircraft is safe is not a political decision. This is totally inappropriate.
28
I wonder if Trump called him Dennis Boeing?
Flippancy aside, there has long been concern about Federal regulators being too "close" to the industries they regulate... Whether it is aviation or pharma.
Does anyone think this situation has improved since Trump took office?
15
@Engineer
No. It’s gotten worse as Trump and his gangs of kleptocrats have erased regulations that were necessary and are still necessary to keep us safe from harm and death inflicted by greedy CEOs and the corporations they head.
@Engineer Still seems pretty swampy.
It sounds to me like the FAA is abdicating it's responsibility for flight safety and is now just an arm of Boeing. The question is, who will protect the flying public? How many more crashes do we need before Boeing and the FAA put safety before profits? This is yet another example of big corporations running important government agencies to the detriment of the general public.
What is encouraging is that the rest of the world is not going for the FAA's Oki-dok. If the FAA won't protect us then we will need to rely on the rest of the world to keep Boeing honest. There must be no compromise or short cuts when it comes to flight safety.
11
Money clearly talks and along with that, we have the regulators being part of the groupthink.
8
Aviation safety is complex. Trump is not. Trump makes decisions based on who bribes or flatters him, vs who dares to criticize him.
Everyone from Saudi princes to Jeff Bezos has learned this. We’re now seeing how this simple rule applies to a new situation.
16
Their may well be another similar crash. will it be Americans this time? How much are human lives worth these days? These planes are not safe, they have been proven unsafe. Boeing saying otherwise is going to cause them a crisis of confidence.
6
Just asking if any business executive in Russia is accused of being connected to the Russian Government can't we say the same about American executives like Mr Muilenburg. All companies pay taxes answer to their governments so they are government connected technically. The media should review how it uses that 'connected to Russian government' as a legit accusation. Just asking.
1
Public safety is no longer a value here- everybody for himself libertarians getting special treatment is par for the maralago in the post Citizens United world. If this government was created of, by and for the people you'll have a tough time convincing the people of Flint and our grandchildren who will deal with the consequences of an unregulated society devoid of science, history and language.
15
This incident smacks of Volkswagen's diesel gate. Something is fishy and no amount of lobbying will end consumer mistrust. Boeing's immediate response saying everything is okay lacks all sincerity and disrespects consumer intelligence. The only responsible course of action for Boeing is to assemble an independent evaluation committee under official oversight to conduct a thorough and complete analysis of the plane's safe for flight status.
7
Kudos to Chang W. Lee -- that is a beautiful (and, yes, aptly dystopian) picture. Too often the top-notch photography in the Gray Lady goes without comment.
1
As soon as I heard the news that the US was not grounding the plane along with other countries of the world, I immediately knew Boeing was in bed with the FAA. Of course, Trump's action in no way surprises me.
12
"Airplanes are becoming far too complex to fly." Said, trump. I really had NO IDEA he was a pilot, why has this never been reported? What can easily be discerned from all of this however is ONE glaring truth. Should there be another crash of a 737 involving one of the two airlines that are refusing to ground their fleet of said planes, BOEING will cease to exist as we know it, the lawsuits will force it into BANKRUPTCY.
11
I’d much rather be on a plane where trained pilots are in control until level at altitude. First, there is redundancy (there are 2), The Boing system uses only 1 sensor while it has three. As we know, lack of redundancy is why bridges fail. Pilots are taught to “fly the airplane first and foremost”. Consider Captain Scully.
1
As an expert on commercial and military
aviation, I believe that Boeing, a truly iconic American company, has very seriously
damaged its reputation by its terrible handling of the two recent 737 Max 8 crashes.
It will likely take many years for them to
recover.
4
@david
I hope Boeing pays for its corruption, but you know that in this country corruption makes you very rich, and can even make you president.
2
Can we read some interviews of pilots who regularly fly these planes? What do they say? How often did they switch to manual control? If they say they had absolutely no problems and never had to use manual control it would be reassuring. On the other hand, if they reported that on an occasion they switched to manual control - yes - ground them. Ground them immediately!
19
They DID make those reports. At least two of them. Nose dives.
Once again, the theory that all government is the problem and that private industry should be allowed to police itself is disproven.
Clearly $$$ is far more an issue for Boeing and the WH than admitting that a problem needs to be solved to protect our lives,
This will likely be fixed and forgotten, but not by accident that the US is the last on the list to consider grounding the Max8
Also very unfortunate that the issues both crashed plane crews faced seems to have been on the radar for some time. That doesn't ean Boeing any sympathy,
13
Software is very complex. Sure they were testing for months and did not yet find what brought down Indonesia flight. Engineers claims its safe and blame pilots. Cannot put public at risk just because Boeing says safe. What else are they going to say?
I’m waiting to hear two things:
The pilots union position on the max 8.
The black box review of the Ethiopian tragedy.
The pilots of the Lion Air and Ethiopian Air tragedies were 31 and 29 years of age respectively. Having flown nearly a million miles on commercial airlines over the past 40 years I cannot remember ever seeing any captains so young. Perhaps training is an issue in these cases. Computers are great but I still have an antiquated attitude that well seasoned (and fully trained) pilots are invaluable to air safety.
The article still points out a big problem - campaign finance and lobbying in Washington need to be fixed.
14
Among his many other criminal inclinations, Trump is a corporate lackey. That goes for his cabinet as well. The head of Transportation, McConnel's wife, is paid to support corporations over safety. She, after all, can fly on Air Force aircraft. She and the entire WH staff and cabinet members should be required to fly on the Boeing 737 Max 8.
18
Trump: give me $350,000 and we won't ground the planes
Boeing: Deal
14
Way to drain the swamp.
6
Elaine Chaio is married to McConnell. Enough said.
12
One would really think, when lives are at stake, that this would be an easy decision. I guess for some people prudence is more worthwhile relataive to the bottom line than it is to human life.
It’s also ironic learning about this at the same time that many on the right are decrying unfair celebrity access to universities; I think the stakes may be a bit higher here.
5
Grounding the planes before we know what happened would hurt business. Commerce before public safety is rule for the Trump administration.
5
Where are all the libertarians now? It's funny how we all resent government intrusion in our lives, but as soon as something like this happens, the first thing we do is look to the government for help and answers and then act shocked, shocked, when we discover that the government is in the back pockets of the special interests.
What did people expect when they put an anti-government party in charge of administering government functions?
28
American's CEO (as well as the CEOs of several other U.S. airlines) just bet the company (as well as passenger's lives) on the safety of their 737 MAX planes, without really understanding the potential problem. Even gamblers at casinos make better bets! At least they understand the rules of the game, and the odds are calculable. With a potentially undefined plane defect, anything is possible. Any airline flying the 737 MAX that suffers a fatal accident before this problem is solved, will likely be in bankruptcy within 30 days.
13
Since we have an FAA that has declared the 737Max to be safe, let's have the President, Vice President, all Cabinet members, and all Republican members of Congress fly ONLY on the 737Max.
After all, who needs "big" government when "small" government will suffice? Privatize all that unnecessary, costly, time consuming, "job killing" regulation and just rely on the honor system. Everyone knows that the EPA, FAA, FDA, SEC, OSHA, CFPB and the rest of the regulatory agencies are unnecessary and a waste of "hard earned" taxpayer dollars.
The corporate "person", also known as Boeing, would never allow its products to hurt any human "persons," would it?
34
In industry, where decisions are taken by engineers who understand what they're talking about, these planes would be grounded. Today, thanks to the cynicism and corruption of Airbus leadership and of the FAA, we just have to hope that there are no more accidents.
Probably there will not be, but that in no way justifies their decision. The risk of an accident is far far higher today than any passenger has a right to expect - even if the number is still very low in absolute terms.
We should worry!
The Airbus CEO, Mr. Muilenburg, needs to be held criminally liable for his either cynical risk-taking or his utter incompetence in understanding the concept of risk.
There is one small reason to question the safety of these planes: two new planes have crashed in only a few months.
How many times in our lifetimes have we had two crashes in such a short period of time? And when we did have crashes, they've almost always resulted from either a serious human error or an identifiable technical problem with an aging plane.
Here we have two NEW planes crashing.
That in itself would be a huge statistical anomaly.
But more, two IDENTICAL new planes crashed. Out of all the planes flying around the world, two have crashed recently - and both of them were new Airbus 737 Max 8's !!
The odds against this being coincidence are astronomical.
Mr. Milienburg is trying to confuse "we have not identified a specific flaw" with "we know the planes are safe". But these are very different things.
5
@Denis
The 737 MAX 8 is built by Boeing, not Airbus. If it had been built by Airbus, the US would have grounded it long ago.
6
@Denis
New planes will always have flaws. It happens with EVERY plane. No plane is 100% safe. That being said, you have a far greater chance dying in a car accident than being in a fatal plane accident. We still don't know what occurred in the two flights that crashed, it may be all issue with the plane but like in MANY accidents in the past, it's usually a combination between the plane, pilot, and airline decisions. There's a good chance that since these planes are relatively new, pilots haven't had enough time to train on it, but that's an airline issue, not the plane's fault.
In the end, we don't know why these accidents occurred. From reports I've read, the first crash looks like it's leaning to be the airline's fault, not the plane, but it's not official yet.
Also, pretty hard to take you serious when you mistaken Boeing with Airbus throughout your entire post.
2
@Denis NOT Airbus, BOEING 737 Max 8s.
I don't believe that it makes any sense that the man described by his own staff as a moron should be involved in any way in discussions regarding the safety of any aircraft and whether or not it should be grounded.
18
Dennis A. Muilenberg, CEO of Boeing runs the airline by playing Mara Lago suck up golf. Really, Boeing?
Dump your Boeing stock, fire his useless arse and boycott all 737 MAX 8 and 9 flights until Boeing gets its act together.
15
Given a reasonable concern for safety, our government prevents the sale of vital medications manufactured outside the US; but when a legitimate concern for an American product is at stake, the show at Mar-a-Lago must go on.
17
Boeing has a software fix for this problem. They are about to roll it out and schedule all of the retrofits for the affected planes. They work very closely with the FAA to enact these upgrades, and after the Lion Air crash, time was of the essence. However, President Trump shut down the government for thirty five days in a hissy fit over funding for his border wall. The FAA lost 35 days of precious time that could have been used to finalize the plans for the implementation of Boeing's software fix on the 737s. The loss of lives in this latest crash is yet more blood on Trump's hands.
11
@psp
Oh yes, it sounds like Boeing is very very good. And but for Trump this would not have happened.
However there was nothing, I repeat nothing but fear of loss of profit and reputation, that prevented Boeing from saying: "We've determined the cause of the Lion Air crash and have a fix. However we are unable to implement the fix until the FAA approves. Until that time we recommend all airlines cease operation of all 737MAX8 and 9s until the fix can be implemented."
If what psp is true and can be accepted at face value there was only one reason it did not recommend that the aircraft not be operated. Lives were an acceptable risk against the potential for lost profit.
"It's complicated" in reply is just another way to explain away greed over life.
2
@Marie Yes, they could have, SHOULD have grounded the fleet after Lion Air and taken appropriate action and responsibility as a company. Greed indeed!
1
Muilenburg, is a cold-blooded corporate jackal who puts profits above lives. I'm not flying on those planes and if that means no Southwest or American airlines, so be it. When they feel the pinch of a consumer boycott, then it will resonate back to Boeing.
10
U.S. airline pilots should refuse to fly these planes. Didn’t the shutdown end when there was pressure from employees saying the inspections of planes was making them unsafe?
Another thing they could do is not use auto pilot until there is a resolution to what is causing the crashes. Boeing should issue some directives on what they are doing and how long it will take. They shouldn’t be calling the President for help in what is their problem.
8
My wife is scheduled to fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8. I am begging her not to do so but she is trusting US government's assurances that the planes are safe and is going ahead with her scheduled flight. If there was another 737 Max 8 crash, which I pray there never be, I know the people I will be going after.
2
Everything in America now is done on the side of profits. Any laws or regulations that stand in the way of large profits must be gutted. Innocent people who are killed due to the president's or CEO's decision to ignore flashing danger signals on the Boeing 737 8, while these jets are being grounded worldwide, are called collateral damage.
12
Putin told Trump that Russia 'didn't interfere." And Trump took HIS word over the whole intelligence community: CIA, NSA, MIA, Dept. of State, etc. So, no contest when he hears from a CEO of Boeing who contributed $1M to the inaugural fund.
12
Boeing = Big US Company
FAA = Needs Boeing Support
Trump = Supported By Boeing
Boeing + Keeps Planes Flying
until they come down far away from the US
8
I'd love to know what the pilots who are flying those beasts are thinking right about now. The first plane crashed after 12 minutes in flight and the second plane crashed after 6 minutes in flight. Not a lot of time to figure out what's wrong and how to correct it.
10
when the fox guards the henhouse it's always a problem. us government is more interested in protecting big business than the safety of the American people.
8
@kerri
I tend to agree.
Profit over people seems to be the order of the day.
2
Trump and Boeing are playing Russian roulette with American airline passengers who will be flying in the Boeing 737 Max 8. This is an excellent example of the consequences of the University scandal, one of many, that we have going on in America right now. It enables incompetent, corrupt, mentally deficient individuals to be placed in positions of power to make life and death decisions over the American people.
11
Good morning,
Here’s my 2 cents because everything has been said. The very next headline is “Three Generations of a Canadian Family Died in Ethiopian Plane Crash”.
To me, that said it all.
Thanks
15
This is why HR1 needs to pass, get lobbying money out of politics forever.
16
"Boeing made a $1,000,000 donation to the Trump inaugural committee. " - CNN
Maybe this is why Trump won't order the FAA to ground these airplanes.
11
Whose re-election campaign will Boening donate to? No mystery.
9
Perhaps a class action suit against Boing and the FAA is in order.
3
A clueless POTUS who doesn't listen to advisers, shoots from the hip, and discounts science, talks to a CEO of a company with a possibly faulty product. What could go wrong?
18
If all American air travelers refuse to fly in a 737 Max then maybe some action will be taken. This is utterly preposterous and stinks to high heaven of massive corruption.
8
This (mal)administration has not the brains, wisdom, character, courage, competence, or credibility to manage this situation. Over 350 fatalities - but no indication at the top of the Dept of Transportation that there is any issue, whatsoever? Is this because those lives were lost in two of the President’s “latrine hole” countries? “Who knew airplanes could be so complex?!” An 8,000 hour pilot couldn’t recover it? No White House spokes-mouth is a credible source. Ask some people deeper in the FAA, the systems on that airplane are telling us something...
5
I think to prove there is no need for the Euros to panick, the con-in-chief should fly in a 737. A faulty one.
2
Dear Dennis A. Muilenburg,
Are you sure you want a man who has lied to The American People going on 9,000 times to give his stamp of approval on the 737 max 8?
I mean talk about the kiss of death.
Why not just get him to be the spokesman for opioids and trans fats while you're at it.
8
The F.A.A. so starved of funds that it has the manufacturers regulating themselves, and our government so corrupt that it won't see the problem from 340+ people dying. The insanity of the trillion dollar tax giveaway to the wealthiest, on top of the starvation of every govt. agency save the military, on top of the Citizens United fiasco, on top of rampant gerrymandering has brought us to this point: every day a new outrage against good government, every day a new violation of norms, of common sense and rational decision-making. Contact your representatives, vote in 2020!
8
@RCRN...The victims so far have been largely non-white foreigners who don’t count for much in our current culture.
This is not cool. Business owners are not supposed to tell the government what to do when their product is suspected of being faulty enough that it's killed 346 people in six months. Further, if Boeing is really interested in their bottom line, doesn't reading the public tea leaves and temporarily grounding this fleet until the black box reading is done make the most sense? It won't take long for the analysis to happen now that the boxes are in hand.
5
You would think that given the inaction of the FAA, Boeing, and the Transportation Secretary that the airlines themselves would take the jet out of service. The airliners are putting the public and themselves in jeopardy.
5
Trump spoke to the CEO. He assured him everything is ok. Meanwhile, the software update was delayed by 4 to 5 weeks because of the government closing because Mexico would not pay for the wall.
If something goes wrong in the meantime and another plane goes down in North America, Boeing will be facing an image problem. Not to worry, Nikki Haley, with her marketing degree from Clemson, is now on the Board of Boeing and will whip up a good marketing campaign to resolve this issue. That's good experience for a would be Presidential candidate.
This will be a golden opportunity for her to show us real Twitter cred and spin ability. A rising star is being born.
5
The mistake was not to ground the aircraft after the Lion crash and excise that automated control software. Now continuing in denial, all who partook in the manifestly flawed decision-making chain need to go. Certainly CEO. All others. If that also includes the board, Buh bye. Ground them, fix the problem and put them back in the air.
If the plane doesn’t fly safely without the porpoising-inducing software, junk it and spend the money for a new design aerodynamically designed for that range and engine power.
6
Anything preventing the airlines from making the decision to voluntarily ground the planes?
1
It's nice to know that we're a nation of men, not of laws. Why would the FAA need to study anything, if the CEO of Boeing can just call his buddy at the White House and tell him a few of Boeing's planes falling out of the sky is no big deal?
Actually, it appears we're a nation of men AND women, not of laws. Our transportation secretary assures us she'll swing into action should the need arise. Translation: These weren't US flights, and we don't care one whit about the foreigners whose lives ended for no good reason. When a plane full of Americans goes down outside Chicago or LA, she'll have a cup of coffee and get right to work.
I feel secure, and I'll bet all of you do too, knowing we have the best government money can buy.
19
@alexander hamilton
Convenient that the transportation secretary is Mitch McConnell's wife....
2
you can bet I am cancelling my kid's upcoming flight if it's on this plane; AND I will make sure everyone I can reach knows about it.
4
In Trump's America, money trumps everything.
6
Safety should be the number one priority. Any astute business person knows that perception is reality. Putting the obvious moral responsibility aside, the proper business decision is to ground the planes to avoid a public boycott which could destroy Boeing.
Hopefully Dennis A. Muilenburg reads the comments herein and will realize both his moral and CEO responsibility is to call for the grounding until the details are sorted out.
Trump has no moral fiber in his being combined with an infantile intellectual capacity. Jamal Khashoggi's murder attests to that.
Elane Chao should put her money where her mouth is and only fly on 737 Max 8's until this problem is resolved.
5
Would Dennis Muilenburg or Donald Trump be willing to meet on a 737 Max 8? Or put their families on one of these planes? I think they should be asked point-blank.
6
If we had an ethical Prez, this would just be sharing an opinion. However, with Trump*, this automatically smells.
3
This reminds me of the scene in Jaws where the mayor makes everyone go into the water after a recent shark attack!
5
@Acey
Instead of frightening the tourists with warnings about a very real threat the sheriff must do something about the lawless hooligans vandalizing the billboards.
@Albert Ross
LOL!
Under which past president has an airline company called and ask to leave us alone and let our planes fly? Once again this is a case of United States citizens last big business first.
8
This crash is indeed a political one. It is becoming clearer by the day now:
1. LionAir crashes
2. It becomes evident that the plane has a major problem, nothing was mentioned in this regard in the manual.
3. Pilots Union is outraged, receives updated manuals and special, prior unavailable training - as it would be have been too costly-also not FAA mandated(!!)
4. FAA (to which Trump still has not appointed a director after two years- only recently considering HIS former private pilot to the position (!!!!) declares the plane after review to have "excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss, and possible impact with terrain."
5. Boeing promises to have problem fixed by "end of the year."
6. Trump orders the longest government shut down in history, for a real important issue: a wall!
7.FAA and Boeing end discussions regarding flight safety improvement due to shutdown.
8. PLANES ARE NOT UPDATED AS PROMISED.
9. Trump and Muilenburg sell 104 737Max to Vietnam.
9. Ethipoian Air crashes the SAME WAY as Lion Air.
10. All airlines worldwide ground the plane, execpt:
11. The US, and US carriers (..and partially Canada)
12. Boeing annouces update: "to make a safe plane safer"
12. Muilenberg calls Trump and to keep planes flying in US.
Question now is: What did they discuss? Is it a quid pro quo?
"If you keep the planes flying, I won't tell the world that the plane crashed because of your shutdown's delay of the upgrade?"
Same goes for McConnell and his wife, Chao.
15
What good is Transportation Secretary Chao If two catastrophic crashes aren’t enough evidence? None. She’s a corporate shill and a hack career politician like her husband Mitch McConnell.
15
I feel so much safer knowing that our President, Donald J Trump, of Trump University, Golf Club Majesty, unregister aircraft and stripper payoffs is personally involved in the safety of our air travel.
Knowing that Boeing has asked for the President's personal involvement, we can all be sure that other countries will trust our acting FAA administrator to use science to find out why people died when a Boeing Aircraft crashed and stop sending black boxes to anybody but us.
5
Let me understand this. The CEO of Boeing thinks a safety endorsement from our Nation's Liar in Chief, will actually help with the 737 Max 8 situation?
Is Muilenburg trying to drive his company into the ground? His company's epithet will be "If it's Boeing, I ain't going".
12
The Boeing CEO should be arrested for bribing a public official.
12
Yesterday, when I heard the US alone, was not grounding Boeing's 737 Max my very first thought was, "They got to Trump."
So obvious. So crazy.
6
@ijarvis
Unfortunately it's not just the USA, Canada hasn't grounded the planes either.
Shareholder value, or lives, what's important?
2017. Muilenburg's compensation included a $1.7 million salary, nearly $6 million in stock awards, and more than $8 million in a non-equity incentive plan. He received $15.1 million in compensation in 2016. Boeing shares have jumped more than 85% in the past 12 months, compared with 19% gains for the Dow Jones Industrial Average from https://www.marketwatch.
2
What did we expect when a former Boeing exec is in the President's cabinet.
4
We really have lost faith in our institutions. I guess it's easy after watching Congress on C-span ... such a dreadful attack every day on career civil service employees.
Even the two supreme court justices seemed to be only tolerated the other day.
And now this .... Maybe I'm just a stupid frequent flyer. But, my theory is that American pilot wants to sleep in his bed tonight as much as I do .. and I don't believe that the Boeing President and engineers at Boeing would allow the plane to fly. The Dreamliner was pulled the second they found the common battery problem
I'm more concerned that Ethiopian Airlines allows someone in a main seat of the flight deck with only 100 hours. The co-pilot had 100 hours! 100 hours -- not the 1500 we require in the USA. Who was in control of that plane? A guy with 100 hours of flying time ... they have not come out to say the experienced pilot was at the controls ---has me thinking he was not
Also -- Lion knew they had sensor problem for 4 days and kept flying .. 4!
I'm fine flying Friday on an American plane.
@GTget your info correct- copilot had 200 hours. mechanical failure versus pilot error? versus bomb-? witness saw smoke in back of the plane- press is playing this down..Who knows?..Boeing is to guilty all the way through this tragedy.. corrupt at the highest levels.FAA & Boeing..2 prior pilot reports of difficulties- I hope their stock tanks and citizens and airlines sue them.
How about putting Trump up in one of these jets?
7
I’d put Muilenburg on it with him.
I would say Chao too, but she and her staff flew on one from Austin to DC just hours after stating she would ground them if they were deemed unsafe.
...actually, on second thought, I’d still put her on there anyway.
Every American should realize the personal danger to them of having a President who is can be persuaded to do a favor for a buddy and leave a plane flying in the US that is grounded all over the rest of the world.
5
It's a shame we don't have a real Secretary of Transportation. Elaine Chao has shown herself to be a mere figurehead in thrall to her husband and Donald.
3
Yeah ask him to state his confidence in Boeing.
He knows everything about aircraft safety!
As much as all the rest.
OMG what world are we living in.
7
I'll be flying Delta from now on. If the government won't look out for our safety, just boycott the airlines (Southwest and American) that are flying the planes.
12
Nice to know that Boeing's concerns involve the bottom line and bad publicity. All this while families of the victims are still trying to identify their loved ones remains.
We obviously need all the details and facts involving this terrible tragedy, the fact that there have been two crashes involving the same airplane model only few months apart, should at the very least raise concerns.
No one is advocating for hysteria here, but precautions should not be dismissed out of hand and ignored in favour of profit margins and special considerations for yet another corporation. The adage "Better safe than sorry" is still worth following...isn't it?!
8
I don't understand why Muilenburg, Boeing's CEO, would lobby Trump not to ground the planes. Boeing's operations and sales would not be affected by a temporary grounding. But they would be affected if another plane crashed.
11
The decisions by Chau and Trump to keep the planes in the air is about money.
If it was about safety, they would be grounded. A few more lives are worth risking if Trump and the GOP can wrangle more more money out of the airline industry.
12
[Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises.]
Are over 300 deaths not considered a sign of a possible safety issue? Of course there are so many variables that can lead to a plane crash so I won't leap to conclusions that Max 8's are absolutely at fault. But what the policy here in the US doesn't consider- and often doesn't- is the morale and emotional state of our citizens. I have an upcoming flight on a Boeing 737-800 and frankly, feel great pause now.
But like guns, there is often a 'let's just let it go one more time' vs a proactive, preventive approach which would truly make US citizens feel the government actually cared about our wellbeing vs the corporations.
7
@Bernice And, I might add, Elaine Chao has the authority to supersede the FAA ruling on grounding. Boeing 737s can be grounded by her decision alone. However, being the wife of Mitch McConnell, it's not very likely, is it?
4
When it comes to aviation safety, the USA has always had an outstanding safety record. Why, it has always erred on the side of caution. Playing the political card and putting first priority on PR is short sighted. Ground the fleet until you have all the facts. There is no 100% certainty yet if it is a mechanical. electronic, human or operational issue. Investigate, investigate and investigate until all doubt is cleared up.
7
Yes, "flying" has never been safer. But that is not the issue. The correct issue is whether Boeing, in seeking to capture customer orders that otherwise might go to the Airbus (say, the 321) has pushed the 1960s-designed 737 airframe too far. Longer fuselage, larger engines, 210 passenger capacity -- Has the combination made the plane aerodynamically marginally unstable? Is that why Boeing added the (initially, secret) anti-stall subroutines to the flight software? Although unsaid, I am certain regulators around the world are asking these questions. Or, is it too-fragile senors sending incorrect data to the flight computer? The most recent aircraft, according to published reports, had 1200 hours of safe flight -- did a sensor fail? If so, how may the sensors be made more robust? No one, I feel, should pretend there is no issue. Southwest, it has been reported, is allowing passengers to choose alternative 737 models (since all of SW's fleet is 737s), a wise move much appreciated.
8
How come other countries take action and say park it until we can be certain it works? How can I get to call up Trump and directly express my concern like the head of Boeing does? How big a bribe or political contribution is needed to get this done?
Fund the FAA to the point where they work for the consumer first,foremost,and always. I do not trust private enterprise to do other than put profits before all else.
18
We, the People. We choose with our hard earned money which airlines, which planes to fly. If the FAA and the Govt will not ground all 737s Max 8 planes, then, we do it with our pocketbooks.
22
@Jocelyn Exactly. Consumers have a choice NOT to fly on the 737 Max 8 planes.
8
This really instills confidence in our flight safety protocols. With the backdrop of generous donations to the Trump administration, the head of Boeing calls President "I-Never-See-Problems-Where-My-Donors-Are-Concerned" and says the plane, after two unexplained crashes, is safe. Transportation Secretary Chao, also known as Mrs. Mitch McConnell, says she will not hesitate to take immediate an appropriate action IF a safety issue arises. I guess two crashes by two separate airlines just days apart don't qualify. And, the U.S. is virtually the only country still flying the plane. What does the U.S./FAA know that NO ONE else in the world knows? (Answer: Nothing)
16
@SurlyBird
I can’t help wondering how much money Boeing gave to Senate Majority Leader and “gravedigger of democracy”,Mitch McConnell, whose wife is transportation secretary, Elaine Chao.
3
This is how great American corporations die. They try to override serious public concerns with PR and political muscle. It never works.
15
Another example of the danger of legally naming corporations as 'individuals,' having the same legal rights as a person.
Corporations DON"T care about human cost only the bottom line.
This is simply another clear example of that as well as the rampant, unabashed selling out of our country's interest & people by our 45th president.
15
I always figured Trump would be anti-Boeing given his "love" for Seattle. The KC-46 was (is) another recent Boeing debacle which will now cost the DoD millions to fix. I always wondered why we never saw a tweet about it...now I know.
6
For a CEO to lobby an incompetent president over issues of airline safety is beyond the pale. This issue should be resolved by professionals, not via twitter by a man who is not in a position to make informed decisions.
18
America, where the corporation rules with a dead fist.
Makes common sense to ground until fixed.
And there lies the interregnum between decency and death.
4
Boeing gave $1 million to Trump’s inaugural slush fund. The acting Secretary of Defense is a former Boeing executive. Of course Boeing can have its way with Trump.
13
And people criticized AOC for calling out capitalisms profits over people.
11
This is egregious that once again under this administration money is being put above more important things.
Also
The definition of what a monopoly is needs to be rethought in this country. Capitalism is designed for healthy competition and yet you have Amazon, the worlds leading online retailer and Amazon Studios producing blockbuster tv shows. Something must be done!!
3
Trump does not have the reasoning skills to lead on this one, as evidenced by his puérile tweet on the perils of plane automation , followed by inaction.
8
So a personal Appeal to the ‘6G’ ignoramus is more valuable than people’s lives?
What IS Boeing’s responsibility here?
In the long run if confidence is lost in Boeing and the plane by this thoughtless behaviour on Boeing’s behalf,the US will be the last and only market for Boeing jets
4
Lobbying will be the death of us all
The chairman of Boeing call the POTUS and Trump will agree with anything the man says, right?
Profit over safety, right Donald?
That is where we are at the moment
If there is a crash, Trump will lie about having a conversation
7
When Trump nominated his personal pilot for the leadership of the FAA I continued to think he was just checking off another box from his Presidential todo list. I hope people think and realize how dangerous this man is to the health and welfare of the citizens of the US I have no confidence that this charlatan of a President would put public safety over money and friendship (and campaign contributions) and do the right thing unless he is forced to. Likewise Im rather cynical about the head of Boeing doing the right thing until it costs them an unheard amount of money,
6
This is an archetypal example of what's known as "savage capitalism." Why don't they just come out and say it: that they value the shareholders and the stock market more than they do the passengers????
7
If, god forbid, another of these planes goes down, the relatives of the victimes should bring a class action against Boeing and Trump.
1
Mr. Muilenburg‘s „denial that there is any problem with safety was strong! It was a strong one ... actually it was a strong one, a lot of denial, huge amount of it, very, very strong one. I believe him!“ allegedly was what Trump answered when questioned about the rational not to ground the planes in the US.
1
FAA subservience to Boeing is bad enough, but the Company having their man at the very top of the DOD is completely terrifying.
4
As reported in the WSJ, safety upgrades to the 737Max8 software to fix the plane's automated safety feature were originally expected in January. They were delayed until April because of "engineering challenges", "differences of opinion" between federal and Boeing officials and the 35 day government shutdown, during which "consideration of the fixes was suspended".
3
This is the way our corrupt system works. Shocked? The back room boys and interlocking associations have been working for years at rent seeking. Here it is in plain daylight.
Old flying axiom - Takeoff is optional, landing is mandatory.
2
Want Boeing to change? Stop buying their planes. Buy Airbus. That’ll get Boeing’s attention.
3
Boeing guidance to pilots:
"It's imperative you remember, when the aircraft begins a catastrophic descent, switch off the autopilot and manually force the aircraft to ascend. Everything should be okay after that."
3
The flight crews in the USA on these planes must be full of fear every leg of a flight on these planes. Wondering if they will be the ones to die before our country grounds these planes. Shame on Boeing and the FAA. Does anyone need a more clear message as to what’s going on ? The Boeing lobbyists have paid out 13 million....
1
The entire 737 MAX fleet needs to be grounded as all three variants 737-MAX 7, 737 MAX 8, 737 MAX 9, and 737 MAX 10 incorporate the same CFM International LEAP-1B heavier engines.
Both the Lyon Air and the Ethiopian Airlines crashes were 737 MAX 8s with the same CFM International LEAP 1B engines.
2
Well Trump has clearly taken on a most difficult task--trying to convince the public that one of the most commonly used aircrafts regularly crashing is NOT an emergency worthy of grounding planes.
OTOH trying to convince people that Mexicans crossing the border to like drywall your new house IS an emergency requiring immediate action.
Remember the Trump so-called 'travel ban' banning travel from certain Trump designated terrorist nations "until we can figure out what the h is going on." Hmm maybe grounding unsafe aircraft until we can figure out what the h is going on would be more appropriate.
BTW I think someone needs to explain to Trump what the definition of "emergency" is as he clearly is unable to figure that out himself.
3
There are so many unanswered questions concerning two tragic crashes of the same model plane that it defies logic and prudence to continue operation of the remaining fleet, especially since several American pilots had anonymously reported similar problems. Boeing notes that the plane has operated safely here for several years; is the defect more likely to occur as the equipment ages, or is not properly maintained over time? Is the likelihood of a crash exasperated by specific atmospheric conditions that presented in the two fatal instances? If the downward trajectory can be overridden by manual operation, isn’t that an admission that a dangerous condition is inherent in the equipment? Wasn’t there a software fix that was recently ordered?
That thousands flights have occurred without a crash (are we sure that have been no “incidents?”) does not establish that the plane can be operated safely when two have suffered similar operational failures. Why are the US airlines reluctant to ground this plane? Is it more profitable to operate?
4
I simply don't get it. Should another 738 Max crash before an investigation of the other two crashes concludes, the financial exposure they are subjecting themselves to is enormous.
Should it be concluded that Boeing has any culpability for the Lion Air and Ethopian incidents, and it seems likely they will escape any if the pilots actions were due to inadequate training on the flight control system, lawyers will have a field day.
Add another accident to that in the interim, where a cautious approach (grounding the plane) was abandoned, and now you give lawyers possible willful negligence leading to wrongful death.
Boeing maybe worth hundreds of billions of dollars, but that valuation would shrink quickly as the stock values plummet.
This in my opinion is a enormous and unnecessary risk, and simply demonstrates that ethical values no longer exists in most corporate board rooms.
That the FAA will not intervene in the face of such risk also demonstrates that the GOP's efforts to destroy governance and the public trust in it have fully succeeded.
God help us all.
9
Hey! They've been working on a software fix for 6 months already. Why not just let them continue to work out the bugs in real time? It's probably just a few hundred more lives before they get it fixed.
I'm happy to be a Delta Skymiles customer flier.
4
Let the market dictate what will happen. We are the flying market— so, we dictate we will not choose to fly on these planes. Time and again, the adults have left their morals and their responsibilities while they serve this Trump administration. We can only depend on us. We are the adults.
2
What's lacking from this article is context that flying has never been safer in the United States. Lots of noise here about the FAA and Boeing, but nothing on safety over the last 10 - 15 years.
Perhaps out of an abundance of caution these planes should be grounded until more information comes forth. It seems like Boeing and the airlines who still fly their planes are opening themselves up to huge liabilities should (God forbid) something tragic happen while this is all sorted out. But we should also not lose sight of the demonstrated safety records of all planes over the past many years.
2
@Mike C. Yes, US air travel has become incredibly safe. So let's keep it that way by grounding these aircraft until things are sorted out.
9
Thank you for your continuing coverage of this story. I sincerely hope it remains prominently featured on the front page until the FAA does the right thing and grounds the planes. The college admissions scandal is irresistible and juicy for sure, but this story and the culture of valuing shareholder profits over safety, which seems to be even more grossly untamed under the Trump administration, should be the focus of every news outlet and call to our elected officials.
15
We all know the bottom line is what's keeping this model plane from being grounded. There is either a problem with the plane or a problem training the pilots, probably both. There is also a problem with our government not wanting to protect the safety of our people. We used to know how to build things well with pride and professionalism, but the thirst for corporate profits and greed put an end to that.
8
Boeing's CEO calls Trump to ask that the FAA not ground the planes. The FAA doesn't ground the planes. Boeing's CEO then says "The planes are clearly safe because the FAA didn't ground them!" Nice how that works.
23
@Yo The perfect logic to use on this president, who is rarely logical.
Not that I am supporting the US airlines for keeping these planes aloft...Southwest for one is letting concerned passengers change itinerary no charge to avoid the Max 8, a reasonable gesture. I for one would take advantage of that option.
18
On one hand we have what appears to be people panicking over the tragic crashes of two airplanes in foreign countries that could have possibly not trained their staff appropriately to fly the new aircraft.
... and on the other, we have the most untrustworthy person in America, the Con Man, and his swamp creatures covering up a very troublesome relationship with one of the most important companies in the country. Another horribly corrupt example of why big money and big business running politics is very, very bad for the country.
And with lives in the balance, what will win: common sense or big corporate bucks donated to corrupt politicians? Let me guess. Money wins. Let's just hope nobody else dies before the problems with these aircraft can be determined and fixed.
19
Elaine Chao, the transportation secretary, said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises.
With all due respect Ms. Chao, when a safety issue arises it will be too late! I’m not surprised in the least that Boeing called Trump and Trump deferred to him. So their plan is to wait until an American plane crashes and more life is lost? This says we’re all expendable.
45
300 people are dead in 2 crashes that mirror EXACTLY the problems that US pilots have been able to overcome. There's a computer system that takes control, like HAL, that Boeing didn't inform, much less train pilots on. The anonymous reports are that the plane started diving, reporting engine stalling when the pilots knew it wasn't, and, timely enough, disengaged the computer preventing a catastrophe.
It's clear Boeing knows there's a problem but instead of taking the Tylenol route, they've instead pulled strings in the White House, the FAA and DOT, to bury it and cover it up. Now we know that HAD they informed and trained pilots on this system, 300 people might not have died.
The Tylenol solution is to pull EVERYTHING until you can establish safety 100%. But not Boeing, and, with a few calls and a donation or two, and Trump sides with them...and 300 people died who didn't have to!
Ayn Rand envisioned this kind of dystopia, but she presumed it would come from social welfare, liberal types, not the corporate giants she worshiped. Yet much she predicted is happening, but it's caused by the very "heroes" she exalted!
Capitalism works, but only if you have honest cops in the market place making sure everyone obeys the traffic laws!
41
@Dadof2
“honest ... in the market place”? I think a modern day Diogenes would be hard pressed to find such people.
I'm flying on Friday and checked to make sure my airline doesn't use these planes. I would cancel a flight before getting on one at this point. Who needs extra stress.
18
Once again, money and influence drives the response to a serious issue and once again I’m appalled by the, “once we have proof," delaying tactics used so as not to inconvenience a major source of political revenue . I shouldn’t be, but I guess I’m still harboring the apparently naive expectation that government governs in the interest of the people.
9
Are the planes safe to fly? Too soon to answer this most basic question because data has not been studied?
As a passenger, this does not reassure me at all and I would not want to fly in one of them. The 'similar' crashes in a short time span are a very serious issue that others seem to be taking seriously. I understand that this is damaging to Boeing with possible serious consequences however reading about the influence and cozy relationship with DC officials makes me think that Boeing is more concerned about the money right now and not the safety of people.
Boeing please find out WHY the planes crashed. It's a difficult 'business' decision but easy if you put people first.
5
There is an answer here. If one hasn't made reservations, make them on an airline that doesn't fly this plane. Or, if they fly that plane, the airline always states the type of plane that one will be flying on, and either fly on another type of plane, or fly another airline, or just don't fly.
And if you have already done so, cancel them, or change them to another plane, or another airline, regardless of the penalty.
After all, one has to decide which is more important, one's safety, or potentially their loss of life. There is a choice.
16
How telling that the CEO would call Trump rather than ground the plane himself until the bug fix is deployed. Prioritizing his job and profits over the needs of ordinary people are shared values with Trump. God help us.
37
The mere *appearance* of a conflict of interest on the part of the FAA is bad enough. But there is also the unmistakeable whiff of impropriety emanating from Everett and elsewhere. I'm not sure what's worse: that a potentially dangerous plane is kept aloft for profit, or that the watchdog has allowed itself to be sedated.
24
A cozy relationship between manufacturer and regulator. Isn't that rich.
Government is only as good as those who run it and when you have the "government is the problem" crowd in charge...hope for the best.
31
There are several reasons I never fly Southwest or American. And there are MANY reasons I won't step foot on United. Now there is one more reason I won't fly these airlines.
19
At the core of the problem is this:
In 2005, the regulator shifted its approach for how it delegated authority outside the agency, ... manufacturers like Boeing could choose their own employees to be the designees and help certify their planes.
No possible conflicts in that. Nope.
It must be a good thing though, since it reduced job killing, innovation strangling, Socialist, un- American regulation, amirite? It was necessary so the budget could be cut and we all know that's a good thing. /s
26
Two of these planes have crashed. It makes sense to ground these planes until we figure out why. We're the planes defective? Was it pilot error? Was it pilot error brought on by unfamiliarity with the quirks of the new plane? Or was it something else?
8
This never fails to amaze me. As an outsider, it is obvious to me that the right thing to do, from a moral point of view and from a business point of view, is for Boeing itself to support the grounding of the planes. I will applaud such a stance. Instead, Boeing callously insists their planes are safe to fly with no regard for public perception or potential reality. There is an outside chance that the crashes were not related to the safety of the planes, but would it not be much better for Boeing as a business if they appeared to come out on the side of caution? No, they never learn! This is unbelievable. Boeing has to learn it the hard way.
46
2019 - "Yes, our airplanes are safe."
2013 - "Yes, Flint water is safe."
1950s - "Yes, thalidomide is safe."
1950s - "Yes, cigarettes are safe."
1940s - "Yes, asbestos is safe."
90
@Bill Smith 2019 White House: "yes climate change is a hoax"
1
@Bill Smith
1986 - Space Shuttle 'Challenger' explodes 73 seconds after liftoff even though engineers had warned it was unsafe to launch because of extreme cold's effects on seals in fuel tanks. The engineers were over ruled and all seven crew members died.
2003 - Columbia Space Shuttle burns up on reentry after damage to heat shield during launch. Problem had been known from previous flights but was thought to be not critical.
4
I wonder what Mulvaney's dystopian budget proposal allocates to the FAA for inspection-related activities.
Let me guess: record cutbacks in budget and personnel.
This is an emerging scandal that underscores just how much federal regulations have become so emasculated as to be essentially worthless. It's WYSIWYG all over again under a Republican Administration.
13
The sad thing is how damaged the American Brand has become as a result of the self serving and dishonesty endemic in the behavior of President Trump and much of his Cabinet. No wonder declarations by the FAA attesting to the safety of these planes has little credibility among most of the nations of the world.
32
@GDJ
Don't you ever get tired of blaming trump for everything?
Boeing is not willing to protect their own interests, even after 346 deaths. After reading this particular article (and many others), I dumped their stock. I have zero confidence in this self regulation scheme. The disregard for consumer protection is shocking. And finally, but not least, their appalling inability to understand the scope of tragedy their product has unleashed upon us.
I'm dumbfounded that Boeing, the FAA, and the USA airline industry don't understand how visibility insensible they are. We the consumers have to shame them.
307
Both Boeing and the FAA insists that it is safe to fly these planes and are not budging from their position of not banning the 737 Max 8 from flying.
Can it be the reason for
NOT YET BANNING the 737 Max 8 is the two airplane crashes - barely 5 months apart—
* Lion Air -189 casualties (Indonesian)
* Ethiopian Airlines (157 perished) are both not Western?
9
@Jocelyn Good point Jocelyn. Suppose the crashes would have occurred out of LAX into the Pacific and Dulles into the forests?
7
@Jocelyn
Good point, though many of the passengers who perished were Western.
5
The truth is no one knows exactly what happened. It could be a terrorist sabotage . It could be a drone attacking. Todays Aircraft should send real time data and images to make it easy identify theses problems .
2
@Wendel
It appears that in two instances, shortly after take-off a computer error has caused the plane to buck and then plunge into the ground. It appears that US pilots have been trained to disconnect the computer in the case of this happening.
Having to train pilots to disconnect the computer flying the plane seems to me to be a good reason to ground the planes until the plane's computer stops trying to do this. Until the programmers have fixed the bug.
4
Worth mentioning that Ms. Chao not only allowed these planes to continue to fly, she boarded one herself with her staff and flew on it. Waiting at least until the Flight Recorders are analyzed is usually a good idea. Especially when there is undisputed reports of fire from the plane before the second crash and the co-pilot involved had a scant 200 hours of experience.
4
@GregP
Tell the Ethiopian authorities who are holding on to the Flight Data Recorders to release them.
It’s a terrible tragedy, but how can all these “experts” know what to do when the data has yet to be analyzed?
Year-to-date there has been, sadly, one incident in about 85,000 flights. That’s so small it almost can’t be measured, not that it eases the pain for those lost.
Just the same, it points to something other than the aircraft behind the disaster.
I’ve worked with Boeing from the outside for decades and the one thing that comes out first is the concern for safety being #1.
Interesting to learn that the software update was delayed 5 weeks by the government shutdown. Something else trump for which trump has responsibility.
8
Congress needs to open an investigation with the FAA, Boeing, and the Secretary of Transportation. This Administration is a clear and present danger.
18
This is just more proof that Trump can always be counted on to do the wrong thing. Thanks, Donald, for placing such a premium on public safety. You're "weak" and "a loser" to bow to pressure from Boeing's CEO while this aircraft is grounded in many other countries.
As for Ms. Chao, who said regulators “will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action” if a safety issue arises, I can't imagine what safety issue she's waiting for. The priorities of some people...
The first thing I did upon hearing of the crash in Ethiopia was to check the website of my carrier for my next trip, and make sure it wasn't on a Max 8. Had it been, I would have changed my flight. Further research showed my carrier has no Max 8's on domestic routes, but had that not been the case, I'd have learned how to identify one and, in the event of an aircraft switch, declined to board. If the public refuses to fly these craft, the carriers will have to ground them even absent official orders. After all, it was air travel chaos that ended the government shutdown, right?
Republicans are always saying people should do for themselves and not count on the government to do things for us. What a case in point this is.
24
This is the idea that safety can be controlled by political means. Imagine a third fatal crash.
Who would be responsible for that?
9
Is aircraft safety regulating going to go the way of "gun safety" in the United States? In other words when and where there is huge amounts of money involved the people responsible for public safety look away, using arcane reasoning to address the real problem - the product itself and it's use.
I won't just leave it there. We can fix the planes - We can't fix the guns but we can remove the guns - for ironically enough, the guns work all too well. But nonetheless, for the latter issue the people responsible for our safety have for years dropped the ball on our safety and it looks like those for the former issue are about to drop the ball.
24
Add this to the list of cutbacks to federal agencies and the consequences to the public unfelt until it hits home.
We should not wait around for Boeing people to decide whether this plane is safe.
I would be sure not to fly on this plane.
18
Once again, our government is siding with corporations. Money in corporate pockets means more than protecting citizens. Should we be surprised?
Chao states, regulators ‘will not hesitate to take immediate and appropriate action’ IF A SAFETY ISSUE ARISES. The Federal Aviation Administration successfully RESISTED PRESSURE to ground this plane.
41 countries recognize a safety issue and so do two US pilots who raised concerns about the safety and criticized a lack of training for this new plane.
27
Help.
Our critical and protective government agencies like the FAA, that we depend on—
Compromised [compromised, underfunded, demoralized, their independence impugned]
21