Well, just curious if any of the people that reject vaccinations would reject a rabies vaccination after being bitten by a rabid animal...because vaccines are [insert nonsense here].
6
[Please also see my previous comment.] And how in ONE day did we see headlines blasted in all major media about a “study confirming no harm in children”? Why did all the articles start off with, "Danish researchers have found...", instead of the more to-the-point, "A vaccine company says you need their vaccines"? Why did no major media point out that this for-profit firm (no Mother Teresas here) is an arm of a large Saudi Arabian conglomerate? Their own page says, “We wish to develop and expand the vaccine business in Denmark and abroad.” They exist for money, not for medicine. https://www.mrgnadvisors.com/news/aj-biologics-agrees-to-acquire-ssi-vaccine-production-business-from-thedanish-state The parent, government-run Statens Serum Institut, whose mission is partly to prevent “congenital disorders”, was involved in a lawsuit by the U.S. Department of Justice. Whereas the institute’s “research” showed that a certain Glaxo Smith Klein drug caused no harm to unborn children, the study was found to be biased. The drug DID harm babies, and GSK was fined big money. Poor babies. http://zofran.monheit.com/risks-of-zofran/ But hey, we all make mistakes. So why didn’t we get a little additional information about the “Danish researchers” from the copy/paste journals and journalists? Nope, man on the street, person on the internet, policy-makers: If our sponsors..er..uh…if WE tell you that people with white coats said it, that’s all you need to know. Shut up & follow.
5
Branding as in "The Scarlet Letter" followed by public humiliation and stoning in the town square for these people and their families.
That should solve it.
2
I've been batting about 250 lately at NYT. I'll repost this one from this morning, hoping it gets put in... before the bottom of the ninth.
This article is just old-school (house) propaganda. It simply explains and presents data for ONE SIDE of a multi-sided story. It should seem strange to everyone that there is zero mention here of any ADVERSE REACTIONS to the various measles vaccines that have been developed since 1963. How can one evaluate the benefit of these vaccines in protecting us from measles without considering the frequency of adverse effects? The history of its success needs to contrasted with the considerable history of its unwanted consequences.
We, personally, have given all our kids the basic vaccines. But this was done more as an act of social responsibility than to protect the health of our kids - which might have actually negatively impacted them, however slightly. I wish this paper trusted people to be able to handle circumstances where social responsibility does NOT fall in line with personal responsibility. Instead, of giving all the information and trying to educate us about the issue (and the value of altruism, in general) they just seem to turn up propaganda for the socially responsible decision - and sometimes abuse the truth in the process.
Worth looking at:
https://physiciansforinformedconsent.org/measles/vrs/
6
I have an outside-the-box idea that could aid vaccine compliance. Shots are painful. Shots evoke fear and anxiety in many children AND adults. Shots are viscerally scary - think of the giant syringes that feature in horror movies, even James Bond movies, wielded by crazed madmen to hurt people. Steel piercing flesh to squirt liquid into our bodies is disconcerting. Not to mention the photos of kids faces contorted in agony that accompany every vaccination article.
I have read that the polio vaccine was once administered in sugar cubes. It made me think: why not put vaccines in lollipops? Or as a liquid medicine? Or a pill for older kids and adults? I think that would sharply reduce the reptilian-brain fight-of-flight instinct that injections produce. And, without all those fearful emotions and adrenaline dampening thought processes, perhaps people would be more receptive to the science?
Truthfully, I am not good with needles. As a kid, I was terrified. Even as an adult, I still have to steel myself to get vaccines. But, both I and my children are fully vaccinated because (1) getting the shot is orders of magnitude better than getting the disease, and (2) I have a social responsibility to protect those fighting cancer (and those who are otherwise immune compromised).
The decision to vaccinate is axiomatic when one's brain is not shut down by fear, fear that is stoked, nursed, and cultivated by nonsense on the internet.
10
@LL
Not all immunizations work via an oral route. Intramuscular shots are given because that's what's needed for the vaccine to provoke an immune response. Polio is caused by an enterovirus (meaning it's transmitted through the intestines), which means it's possible to deliver a vaccine orally. Not so for many other vaccines, that need to be protective against viruses or bacteria that do not infect the gut.
Believe me, as a parent to small children, I wish vaccines could be delivered via lollipop! But I'm more than happy to bribe my children with whatever lollipops they want AFTER they get their necessary shots. It's a good lesson to them that sometimes things that we need to do can be scary -- but that those fears can be overcome and we can do the right thing.
32
The number of unvaccinated people has grown just as population has grown. But the rate has held steady at above 91% for at least a couple decades.
That's a pretty high number for anything. At what level do we get herd immunity?
5
Somewhere around 92%. But you left out the little detail that general immunity doesn’t help much if your neighborhood’s at 50%.
31
@Robert Exactly, the people who quote the high levels of vaccination in this country overlook the pockets where the rate is low ... and it is those pockets that are hit with the diseases.
17
There is so much really bad information in the public arena about vaccines, the history of vaccines, and so forth. The Supreme Court gave this industry a legal free pass because vaccines were “unavoidably dangerous.” The CDC is a revolving door with the vaccine industry and owns over 50 vaccine patents. Our regulatory agencies should NOT be in the markets they are policing. The so-called “safety” studies of vaccines are not science at the cellular level; they are epidemiological, which can only show correlation, not causation. Or, the studies are industry jerry-rigged. Media is doing a terrible job of reporting the whole vaccine story, which contributes to the fact that anyone with appropriate credentials who raises warning flags, surfaces unintended consequences, or cites damage is immediately demonized, loses their job, etc. In California today, a doctor alone cannot give a medical exemption to a child who has already had a vaccine reaction. That’s deeply wrong. The fear mongering right now is off the charts as this industry seeks to expand its market share to all children and all adults. That is a very, very dark road to go down.
6
This is a classic Tragedy of the Commons: Since practically everyone else is getting vaccinated I can save myself (or rather my child) from the small risk of side effects by opting out.
The same issue comes up over and over. I don't know what the solution to people who want to take advantage of the actions of others without pitching in themselves is. I don't think forcibly vaccinating people without consent is a good idea, but then they also shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the herd immunity all the rest of us have put ourselves at (small) risk to provide. They can move to a country that does not require vaccinations.
It's a free choice: do your part for the herd immunity here or take your chances somewhere else, where these diseases are endemic. With actual skin in the game most people's choices would probably be different.
5
I'm disturbed by most of these comments. Accept without question what the men in the white lab coats tell us? This is what it means to be liberal now? Forfeit critical thought, encourage censorship, trust unequivocally in institutional authority?
Our government apologized for this a few years ago:"U.S. government medical researchers intentionally infected hundreds of people in Guatemala, including institutionalized mental patients, with gonorrhea and syphilis without their knowledge or permission...Many of those infected were encouraged to pass the infection onto others as part of the study." I could cite dozens of other instances of this type of governmental abuse.
Vaccines are an amazing, effective medical tool. Vaccines in the hands of for-profit Big Pharma companies that are traded on the NYSE and have a history of corrupt behavior (Merck makes the measles vaccine) are suspect--from the ingredients they use to the huge increase in recommended dosages/types.
The backlash against vaccines is part of a broader trend of disillusionment with our institutions. And rightfully so! They've abused their power repeatedly.
I hope there's a solution to this--but I can say with certainty that it is not forcibly injecting citizens against their will. The entire media-corporate industrial complex is pushing one narrative on this issue--as usual--and that alone gives any good liberal pause.
7
@Jacob I'm shocked, shocked to find that you don't entirely trust in big pharma! How could you doubt the industry that brought us Vioxx, Diethylstilbestrol, Bextra and so many more! There is simply no way the pharmaceutical industry could be anything but squeaky clean when it comes to vaccination science!
5
Those people who wish to suppress the truth by trying to control the narrative can never succeed, because the truth eventually prevails. You can't change the truth; you can only befuddle people into not noticing it. You can't fool all the people all the time, as Mr. Lincoln once said. Good luck to those intent upon trying.
3
"Dr." Rand should have his license to practice medicine revoked and be sued as a public danger
2
Isn't it time we stopped allowing these anti vaxxers to run things? Is it a matter of time before Polio makes a comeback? That's what it will take because these people are beyond reason and are being fed absolute garbage by wacky FB pages and websites. My anti-vaxxer co-worker told me today that Luke Perry apparently had a vaccine before he died. She read it on her anti vaxxer page. I suggested she STOP EMBARRASSING HERSELF!
6
He's a useful way to look at it. Would you knowingly keep an open pool a raw sewage in your backyard? And then, give your kids a bucket of it to carry around with them everywhere they went everyday? The failure to vaccinate your kids is an anti-social act on par with the example.
2
Study just released:
Journal of Clinical Microbiology, entitled, “Rapid Identification of Measles Virus Vaccine Genotype by Real-Time PCR,” researh has discovered a large number of measles outbreaks are actually “vaccine reactions” from the measles vaccine itself (MMR vaccines).
During the measles outbreak in California in 2015, a large number of suspected cases occurred in recent vaccinees . Of the 194 measles virus sequences obtained in the United States in 2015, 73 were identified as vaccine sequences (R. J. McNall, unpublished data).
In other words, measles outbreaks were occurring among children who were already vaccinated with the measles. If you do the math, nearly 38% of the genetic sequences that were conducted on supposed “measles” cases turned out to identify measles strains that originated in the vaccines themselves. Thus, more than one out of three cases of measles in the United States was actually a reaction from a measles vaccine, not “wild-type” measles.
-Journal of Clinical Microbiology, entitled, “Rapid Identification of Measles Virus Vaccine Genotype by Real-Time PCR,
6
@Punya, it is clear from your comments that you did not read the article you cite. Here is what the article said:
1. In approximately 5% of cases - not 38% - vaccinated individuals develop a rash consistent with the rash those infected by measles develop.
2. When public health investigators are working to contain an outbreak, they need to rapidly discern who truly has the measles and who is simply having a vaccine reaction.
2.5. They do not mention this, but it's important to make a distinction because some "vaccine-hesitant" folks will rush to get vaccinated when an outbreak occurs, and approximately 5% of those people will develop a rash even though they don't have the measles.
3. The researchers developed a test using real-time polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR), a method of quantifying genetic material, that allows them to quickly distinguish between actual measles virus and the live attenuated virus used in vaccines.
That's it. At no point does it claim any recent outbreaks are attributable to vaccine reactions. The researchers make it clear that some of the 2015 cases were simply suspected cases. According to reports, 131 people actually became infected, and since 131 + 73 != 194, clearly the researchers did not have all of the samples of all the infected. Dividing 73 by 194 is just math; its not data. 194 sequences were used in the study, but that has nothing to do with the actual rate of vaccination vs. infection in the population as a whole.
13
No. the PCR study looked to distinguish between a vaccine-induced rash (which can be initially mistaken for actual disease) and MeV infection.
8
You will never stop Measles-period. Studies has demonstrated that. Here is one:
-Arch Intern Med. 1994 Aug 22;154(16):1815-20.
Failure to reach the goal of measles elimination. Apparent paradox of measles infections in immunized persons.
Poland GA1, Jacobson RM.
Conclusion: The apparent paradox is that as measles immunization rates rise to high levels in a population, measles becomes a disease of immunized persons. Because of the failure rate of the vaccine and the unique transmissibility of the measles virus, the currently available measles vaccine, used in a single-dose strategy, is unlikely to completely eliminate measles. The long-term success of a two-dose strategy to eliminate measles remains to be determined.
Study is on Jama.
Dr. Gregory Poland is Professor of Medicine and founder and leader of Mayo Clinic’s Vaccine Research Group. Poland is one of the world’s most admired, most advanced thinkers in the field of vaccinology.
6
@Punya
You contradict yourself. If the efficacy of the two-dose MMR is yet to be determined, then your categorical statement that measles will never be stopped is baseless.
1
@Punya, it is clear from your comments that you did not read the article you cite. Here is what the article said:
1. Administering a single dose of the MMR vaccine hasn't eliminated the measles.
2. This is because of how uniquely infectious the measles virus is.
3. The two-dose strategy may work better but we don't have enough data to know yet.
This paper is from 1994. The two-dose strategy was recommended in 1989. Two measles was declared eliminated in the United States in the year 2000. The herd immunity rate (percent of population that must be vaccinated to prevent the disease from taking hold) is 93% for measles. In 2016, according to the CDC, the percent of children receiving the measles vaccine was 91%. And now in 2019 we have several measles outbreaks around the country, chiefly in areas with higher percentages of unvaccinated individuals.
3
Most of the resistance to vaccination is not from those who are uneducated or "ignorant", it's from those who are arrogant. They know MORE than the scientific community. They are such superior beings that their "healthy lifestyle" will put a bubble around them and protect them from all illness.
This simply cannot be allowed. When I read the article about that poor little boy who nearly died from tetanus, it was no surprise to see he was from Oregon.
Can we just quarantine that entire state and not allow anyone in or out of it? I am furious when I hear someone proudly proclaim that they never get a flu shot as they exercise and eat kale and quinoa. Well, when they end up with the flu, they put me at great risk of getting it, even though I have gotten an annual flu shot now for many, many years. I am 75 - my immune system is probably not as good as it once was. I have a chronic pulmonary condition that puts me at great risk if I get the flu. I can easily end up in the hospital on a ventilator - and I might never get off that thing. Thank you, but no!
I remember my parents (born in 1901 and 1908) talking about children they had known during their childhood, who got tetanus - at that time it was called "lock-jaw". They described the horrible deaths of these children. And today we have a family who have seen their own child suffer with this refusing to vaccinate the other children in the family? If that isn't child abuse, I don't know what is.
13
I don't think that censorship by FB or Google would help resolve this issue. Trying to supress a paranoid mind what thrives on conspiracy theories will cause exactly opposite reaction.
Here is what may work (but not guaranteed):
- run a mass media campaign featuring the stories about children that were affected by some of preventable diseases
- clearly explain risk factors related to vaccines. Do not try to minimize them.
- clearly explain statistics behind risk vs. benefit analysis. Do not assume that even people with advanced school degrees understand math.
3
This issue is complicated only because of one conflict: the natural parental feeling of proprietary responsibility for one's children versus the common good. (Compounded by folks believing internet garbage.) The problem: America is losing its sense of identity, of collective purpose, of faith in itself. Rather, we are seeing "group identity individualism", where every cohort believes it is more important than the collective America.
It may seem harsh, but we must insist that parents, while having the right to refuse vaccination for their children, do not have the right for those children to appear in any public place, putting others in jeopardy.
Of course one then also has to consider the communal responsibility to protect children from abusive parents, and refusing to vaccinate one's child (for other than legitimate medical reasons) certainly can be considered abusive. However, that is a complex and gray area, where solutions are far from simple.
For starters, we must insist any legislator we support will vote to abolish all non-medical exemptions for kids in school. Then we need to get back to the understanding (more complicated) that the main purpose of schools is not merely to benefit the child, but to benefit the community by educating aware and responsible citizens. And that, of course, entails (as we will never develop the political will to abolish private schools) the insistence that all schools teach at minimum a fundamental curriculum which includes civics.
5
Look at the least vaccinated zip codes and you will find that they tend toward being the more educated, wealthier zip codes. And the areas hurt most by Trump's policies tend toward being the most pro-Trump. People believe what they want to believe.
Fake news? Alternative facts? It takes work to home in on reality, but to the extent that your choices will affect my life -- such as by bringing an unvaccinated child into school, the supermarket, or any other public place -- it's your obligation to do that work and not just lazily accept anecdotal (non)evidence that simply supports your current view. There is more scientific evidence for the virtues of mass vaccination, than there is for medium-term, devastating effects of anthropogenic global warming. And I would give 2-1 odds that most anti-vaxxers believe in the imminent risk of global warming.
For many people words such as "vaccination" have become symbols, not thought-out constructs with coherent substance. The hard work of understanding is out of fashion. Intellectual laziness, sadly, is very in.
The fundamental problem is that America (and the hard-won Western liberal tradition in general) is fast losing its sense of identity, of collective purpose, of faith in itself. Rather, we are seeing what I would call "group identity individualism", where every cohort (whether self or other defined) believes its particular identity is more important than the collective identity, American, more important than the collective good.
2
Here is how to stop it.... anyone who refuses to be vaccinated is exempt from utilizing Public institutions. No non vaccinated on our schools, courtrooms, etc... call it a social quarantine for those of us who believe in the power of science and understand the concept of herd immunity.
5
In my opinion, Big Pharma bears responsibility for spawning both the anti-vax movement, and the resurgence of measles. If the recommendations of Dr. Wakefield (who was not, and is not, anti-vaccine) had been received in a rational & unemotional way, science & medicine could have calmly confirmed (or not) the safety of the MMR vaccine, by putting it through the same tests that single vaccines undergo. Standard precautions & testing were never undertaken for MMR, before its implementation. Why? Wakefield maintained that single measles vaccinations were safe & effective. And single vaccine usage continued to increase after his reports. Only when the government made single vaccines UNavailable (on behalf of pharmaceuticals, who profited more from MMR), and only when Big Pharma was taken to court over the MMR vaccine, did the current hysteria & misinformation campaigns (on both sides) begin. Their greed was absolutely responsible for the current, unnecessary polarization. You all know that pharmaceutical companies constantly lose court cases (not only involving vaccines, but for many of their products) to the tune of billions and billions of dollars. Not a big deal for them, but still something they didn't want to risk with MMR. Once again, profits before protection, sales before safety. It's hard to understand how any person of integrity desires to come down on the same side of the fence as these drug rackets. https://vaxopedia.org/2018/08/01/andrew-wakefield-is-not-a-fraud/
8
People have been wondering why peanut allergies are so prevalent. Probably for the same reason as vaccine refusal - mothers are not introducing peanuts in utero nor are either parents giving it to toddlers. The fear of peanuts is leading to the peanut allergies because the children are never introduced to it until it's too late, so their bodies can't process it. So now doctors are saying, introduce peanuts in utero. Give babies Bamba, a peanut snack popular in Israel where there are few peanut allergies. That's what vaccines are, folk! They are a little bit of the dangerous stuff introduced to your body so it learns to fight back. People understood the concept in the 1700s! Why are people so foolish today?
4
First thing: vaccines don't cause autism. But another thing that disturbs me about anti-vaxxers is their idea that autism is so horrible that measles epidemics are an acceptable alternative.
Today in the news we read about a high school senior organizing the shoveling of a neighbor's driveway so that she can get to her kidney dialysis. That kid is on the autism spectrum, according to the news report, and he's a peer counselor to other kids on the spectrum.
There are some ugly feelings percolating behind this rejection of science by anti-vaxxers. Vaccines don't cause autism, but people with autism are not two-headed monsters. They have challenges that range range from mild to severe. But those challenges aren't really worth endangering other children's lives to prevent.
6
At one time, if you weren't vaccinated, you weren't allowed to start public school. At least that is how it was in my state and town in the late 1960s when I began kindergarten. My mother had made sure that I was vaccinated on schedule, as per the doctor, but then there were other shots I had to have before they'd let me set foot in the kindergarten classroom. My mom doesn't remember any exemptions; but back then adults still remembered what it was like before vaccines, and getting your children vaccinated was protecting them. At that time, smallpox wasn't yet eradicted, and I had to get a smallpox vaccination. There was no vaccine for chicken pox, or for the flu (I never had a flu shot as a kid), but the big diseases--measles, mumps, rubella, polio, smallpox, yes.
If you live in a cave, homeschool your kids, and never leave your home, then fine, don't get vaccinated. But when you live in a community, your choice not to vaccinate can seriously harm or kill someone else. Someone who is an infant and too young to be vaccinated, someone who has a compromised immune system and can't be vaccinated. Personal liberty to make your own decisions re your health goes so far, but when you can become the next Typhoid Mary and seriously impact public health in your community, then I think doctors and lawmakers need to protect the rest of us.
9
@marybeth In those days it was a few vaccines at best. Now a newborn is immediately vaccinated for Hep B, which is sexually transmitted and the number of vaccines by age 18 is close to 80 and makers have no responsibility for their products.
5
@lechrist
Hep B can also be transmitted through breastfeeding. Vaccinating the newborn as well as the mother provides an extra layer of protection.
5
Insurance companies will soon stop paying for unvaccinated health issues like the boy in Oregon who had never been vaccinated and was hospitalized for 57 days for over $800,000. When he left the hospital the parents still refused vaccinations.
8
We seriously need to stop being afraid of the measles. We now know (have for years actually) that severe measles symptoms are caused by vitamin A deficiency and a heavy dose of vitamin A (200,000 iu for 2 days or 100,000 iu for 2 days for infants) can reduce the severity of symptoms. The measles used to be considered a childhood illness. I'm a child of the '60s and I came down with the measles as did my siblings and we all recovered quickly and without incident or harm. My doctor gave me a shot of gamma globulin, which was the protocol then. Vaccinate those who have poor immune systems, bolster the rest and stop trying to over vaccinate our kids for every known illness and reserve the vaccines for the killers like polio, tetanus, and diphtheria. Pertussis is a bacterial infection, treatable with antibiotics and infers a lifetime immunity, which the vaccine does not. Vaccinate women plan to become pregnant. Vaccinate those who want it. But we need to stop losing our minds over a measles outbreak and calling it an epidemic or pandemic. Forced or coerced vaccination is not the answer.
4
@Libby
"I'm a child of the '60s and I came down with the measles as did my siblings and we all recovered quickly and without incident or harm. "
It is a shame that those who didn't recover aren't here to provide a rebuttal.
15
@Libby - "Vaccinate those who have poor immune systems"?
You must be kidding, they're one group legitimately excluded from vaccination.
Another is women who might be pregnant, so your advice about women who are trying are precisely another group who shouldn't follow your bad advice.
That's why the rest of us get vaccinated - so that these most at risk will have less chance of catching something.
7
Instead of pushing the old 'more education regarding the benefits of vaccination', 'more money spent on programs to promote vaccinations' (we've been vaccinating for nearly 100 years now) how about:
No vaccinations - no public schooling at any age
No vaccinations - doctors offices, health clinics, hospitals can refuse them entry to their establishments
No vaccinations - no health insurance/Medicaid/Medicare
Personal liberty becomes a dangerous ideal, when practising it endangers hundreds, if not thousands, of your fellow citizens.
5
We are more than 2 generations removed from the discovery of the polio vaccine in 1955. Those young parents who refuse vaccinations for a myriad of misinformed reasons, have no recollection of what life was like before children were vaccinated. Recently I was in a meeting with young teachers in their mid 30’s. The issue of vaccination came up. One young woman remarked “ No one gets measles any more. Does anyone here know someone who has had measles?” I’m in my late 60’s and of course responded, “I did.”
Today’s young parents (almost all vaccinated by their parents) have no recollection of being in the dark for days with a high fever because measles was thought to effect ones eyes. Or, going back to school one day to find a classmate gone, dead of measles.
Polio kept us home from the beach because that’s where kids got sick, or so my mother thought. We were visited by friends from Canada both kids in leg braces, stopping in Connecticut on their way to NYC to see specialists.
Many of my generation can remember these things quite clearly. We do not want a return to those days or worse.
The only way to counter the current anti-vaccination movement is education, and stricter laws around vaccination. We need to protect our children and grandchildren from people who, like my young colleague, believe that theses diseases are gone for good and from people who only believe the negative stories about
vaccinations that have been resoundingly debunked by legitimate science.
8
Individual rights are a tricky thing. Often, our society too easily divorces that concept from individual responsibility. We often see our rights as all encompassing without regard for the possible ramifications that may ensue. Just last night I read on article in the NYT to at WaPo about a kid that had an $800,000 hospital bill from tetanus that he was not vaccinated for. The article did not mention insurance but I had to imagine it was in there somewhere. Why are we, the people that pay taxes and also the people paying huge health insurance costs, covering the freight for those who don't vaccinate and then rack up these costs? I would support a law that requires vaccination for health insurance, including Medicaid, unless religious objection is proven. I may sound like I am really right wing, but I am very much not. I would also equally support more funds to pay for vaccines for the uninsured. All of that helps the rest of us. It saves health care money and helps business productivity because fewer parents are missing work because their child has a preventable disease. It would be preventable if the parents believed in SCIENCE as much as they believe in Facebook.
3
@David
What would constitute proof to justify a religious exemption? My minister says that vaccinations are fine, I counter that my interpretation of the Bible says that they're forbidden. Or, I claim that vaccinations violate the doctrine of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The government can't say that the minister is right and I'm wrong, or dispute my interpretation (or existence) of FSM doctrine.
Religious exemptions need to be eliminated.
Here in WA state, site of a measles outbreak, we deal with several factors re: child vaccination. There's the libertarian culture out here that views mandatory immunization as akin to gun control, an attitude carried into our state legislature. There's the tech community that thinks since they can write code, they can also hack their childrens' health. There are the celebrity anti-vaxxers like RFK Jr and Jenny McCarthy who parachuted in to the state capitol to shed darkness on the legislators' discussions of a bill to eliminate personal exemptions. The internet anti-vaxx community saturation bombed social media, legislators' inboxes, and comment forums for local newspapers, joined by Russian trolls who spread their usual disinformation. Another factor not as widely discussed is the equivocation by too many pediatricians, who are hesitant to present a clear and forceful message to the parents of their patients about the need to vaccinate their kids on the recommended schedule. Some doctors don't want to alienate parents who are fearful, some are timid about standing up to the aggressive misinformation shouted by the militant anti-vaxxers, and some may even share concerns about delivering multiple vaccinations during the first 15 months after birth; they fail their oath to do no harm. These forces need to be countered by clear messaging about the personal and public good of vaccinating children.
2
States can start by requiring all schools have vaccinated children minus the legitimate medical exemption, so that would come to about 98% rate, above the minimum 95% to maintain herd immunity. State funding and accreditation would be cut and denied to any school regardless if they are public, charter or private from K- 12 and all colleges. Politicians often cave into the demands of the loud minority in this case, the antivaxxers. We have seen it here in Oregon. With this method, the antivaxxers can't cry foul; citing religious and private rights for making choices for their kids. Why our pols cave in is perplexing given the undisputable facts regarding vaccinations.
4
47 states allow religious exemptions, and 17 states allow philosophical (or personal belief) vaccine exemptions.
This is part of the problem, too.
8
@The Poet McTeagle
If religious exemptions are allowed, then so should be "philosophical" exemptions. Religious beliefs in a secular society should carry no more weight than a simple "I don't want to."
There should be no religious exemptions.
1
My kids are vaccinated, but as a mother and researcher I have always felt that doctors/scientists, seldom give patients an educated version of why vaccines are useful. It might explain parents collecting simplified, cherry picked bits in popular news articles and coming to a rather different conclusion. If one reads about these vaccines, there is plenty to make one decidedly uncomfortable about their use, starting with how they are cultured and some rather dubious contents along with the antigens...and I don’t mean chemicals alone. Definitely, it gave me the shudders, not because my kids would become autistic, but because of the presence of fetal genetic material. There is no reassuring argument scientists can propose to a mother other than, the disease is worse than the ‘dirty’ vaccine, and there is currently no one who has a better idea on how to avoid these ghastly diseases. And of course we as mothers are expected to make a choice between the frying pan and the fire. I agree as a community it appears irresponsible of folks who choose not to vaccinate their children. But instead of vilifying them, perhaps a better approach would be to present honest articles on the problems with vaccines and why in spite of knowing their potential drawbacks, we may be better off vaccinating our children. Most of the articles and the researchers also seem to carefully cherry pick their statements, presenting an untruthfully rosy picture. I long to read a balanced review on this topic.
4
@Meena
It is not the job of doctors to educate a science-illiterate American population on the efficacy and nature of vaccines. Doctors would have no time to practice medicine and help people if they are busy educating (the often uneducable) on matters of science.
The failure is of our schools that should be teaching basic health and medicine in science classes. How the immune system and vaccines work should be taught in biology classes, as they were in my high school.
7
@Earthling No. Doctors need to hand out ingredient and side effect lists for each vaccine and make sure to get informed consent so patients know exactly what is going on. There is nothing more important in life than one's health. Doctors and their assistants need to do more than sell drugs and give you five minutes. Health over profit.
4
Here's the end of something I posted a while ago (but still not up). You might appreciate it...
We, personally, have given all our kids the basic vaccines. But this was done more as an act of social responsibility than to protect the health of our kids - which might have actually negatively impacted them, however slightly. I wish this paper trusted people to be able to handle circumstances where social responsibility does NOT fall in line with personal responsibility. Instead, of giving all the information and trying to educate us about the issue (and the value of altruism, in general) they just seem to turn up propaganda for the socially responsible decision - and sometimes abuse the truth in the process.
https://physiciansforinformedconsent.org/measles/vrs/
2
I don't understand why parents would risk their childrens' lives and not have them vaccinate. I had measles as a child and luckily survived although I remember being pretty sick. I had my children vaccinated without a second thought. I wonder because these parents did not grow up with these infectious diseases, do not realize the dangers of not having their children vaccinated.
5
Hey, make it mandatory. No expectations, unless there's a valid substantiated medical reason. No vaccine, no school. No vaccine no DL. No vaccine, no social benefits...
10
If my family member who either had the vaccine but is one of the million for whom it didn't work or is immunocompromised via chemo or being a newborn or similar, and s/he is disabled or killed by measles spread by an identifiable anti-Vaxer, will I be allowed to sue that person or their parents/guardians for appropriately massive damages? Will my local DA be able to charge them with negligent homicide, child or elder endangerment, or even murder?
4
Many of these comments sound gratuitously nasty. I guess the pro-vax crowd are really the hysterics they accuse others of being. With scandals about Big Pharma continuously coming out, I am surprised at so many running, shouting, demanding forced vaccination. A comment of mine which pointed out that these Pharma giants who make our vaccines are broadly protected from liability by a 1986 Supreme Court decision was not posted. In other words, any safety problems don't have to worry them. The drug companies are not liable. So what's not to like Big Pharma? No liability and a populace forced to vaccinate by a hysterical mob. Sounds lucrative to me.
4
@LI Vaccines are so important that society does not want liability from a few isolated cases of bad reactions threaten the entire system. Thus the companies get liability and a compensation fun exits to help the few that are harmed.
10
@MollyG It is not just a few. $4 billion has already been paid out. National Vaccine Information Center.
2
@lechrist
NVIC, widely known for its misinformation made to look like a government sponsored site, it is not. Big favorite of anti vaxxers.
4
Kind of amusing, having been in grade school in the 1950s, when all parents always would make extra efforts to make sure their child got the measles. No one died. There were red spots and sore eyes. Out of hundreds of kids, nothing bad happened. Measles was routine. So why the big freak out now? Perhaps it's the "safety" theme and obsession that warped American's minds after 9/11. I understand measles does kill...very rarely. Less than the flu as a percent of illnesses. Danger, danger...
2
@Joe my college roommate contracted the measles in the early '90's. She was vaccinated but she was the rare case where the vaccine failed. She survived but has hearing loss.
4
Two words: confirmation bias.
2
@Joe Wow ... that's a lot of generalizations in your posting. "All parents always" would try to ensure that their children were infected? "No one died"? During the period 1953-1962, deaths from measles averaged 440 annually (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/209448)
It is quite common to hear people say "I got X when I was a child and I was fine. X is no big deal." Of course, the people who died from X aren't around to tell us their side of the story.
5
I don’t understand the reasoning for not vaccinating, but the fact remains that the law limits discrimination based on “vaccine hesitancy.”
1
No shots, no school. Unless a child has a medically valid documented reason for not getting vaccinated - enjoy homeschooling!
3
@ROK
Indeed. Homeschooling has a lot to offer!
1
The tone of these comments is disturbing. Not just name calling, but a lynch mob mentality is evident. Everyone has a suggestion about what to do to 'anti-vaxers.'
I understand fear, but I do hope for a little more calm discussion on these pages.
I am also impressed with the grammar and the attention to detail of many of the commenters. I see very few mistakes. Syntax is not only correct, it seems extraordinarily uniform.
That makes me wonder whether some of these comments aren't 'professionally generated.'
3
@Justin Exactly. My heart is breaking witnessing the suppression of valid information, questions and links to respected sites and physicians who follow "first do no harm." They are also removing posts like yours after the comment section closes, so retain your email/net copy of your post. This is not freedom of the press...nor what I was taught in journalism school. :(
2
@Justin
I think that you'll notice that spelling, grammar and sentence structure is generally excellent on all the NYT forums. Chalk it up to the nature of the readership, not some nefarious attempt to drown out anti-vaxxers.
2
From the article:
"...YouTube has barred anti-vaccine channels from running advertisements and Facebook has said that it will no longer allow anti-vaccine advertisements on its pages."
Really!? That's it. They are no longer taking money from charlatans to run adds? Gee. There social responsibility knows no bounds.
Youtube and Facebook are complicit for running these provably wrong ads. How about a class-action from some of the rubes who's children got measles? Youtube, Facebook, and their likes need to be shown that where there is great power and wealth there is equally great responsibility.
Or at least, there is a minimum standard. Jeeche.
1
Rand Paul should have his medical license revoked.
2
I guess anti-vaxxers would rather live in the 1600s? When infant mortality was sky high because of diseases like rubella, mumps, scarlet fever, small pox, measles etc... I’m constantly amazed at their stunning ignorance. Vaccinations have allowed civilization to thrive without the the fear of needless deaths.
I’m also confused at their rejection of science. Are they also climate change deniers? If not why do they believe climate science and not medical science? What do they think stopped polio and small pox in their tracks? You know where polio is still endemic? In places where there is no access to the polio vaccine like Afghanistan. Do they think that small pox just went away on its own?
It is high time for states to legislate laws forcing people to vaccinate their children. Obviously people cannot be trusted to make informed decisions on their own anymore. When the act of not vaccinating is framed as a “personal liberty” issue then it’s gone to far off the rails and needs to be brought back in line for the good of the public.
7
The multiple fallacies in your comment illustrate what we're up against. First off, adverse effects from injections are rare. Even when they occur they're usually minor. A child is much more likely to have serious complications from a disease like measles. One in a thousand who have measles die. More have chronic complications. I see many comments online from those who claim complications from injections, but if such anecdotes were true the numbers would be obvious. Anecdotes aren't data.
As for unvaccinated children being healthier than vaccinated children: that's simply wrong. Such conclusions aren't backed up in reputable literature. I don't doubt some ant-vax groups are either quoting a poor study or else purposefully misinterpreting legitimate ones. I've seen both approaches from dishonest anti-vaxxers.
Finally, vaccinations don't "wear out" a person's immunity. Some immunizations do wear off which is why some are given twice. That's the case for measles. If a child doesn't get the full round then they will be susceptible to a disease. Even then it's possible for a small number of vaccinations not to take. That's EXACTLY WHY everyone needs to be vaccinated. People aren't just vaccinated to protect themselves. You get vaccinated to protect others, including the vulnerable who can't be vaccinated (the very young, those when specific medical conditions) and those for whom the vaccination might not be effective. Such protection only works if nearly everyone is vaccinated.
8
How to stop measles (and other communicable diseases)?
!.Make sure your children receive the recommended immunizations.
2. Strengthen laws requiring immunization for children in school.
ALL children, except those with medical reasons for not being vaccinated, MUST be vaccinated to attend school.
5
Most anti-vaxxers don't easily comprehend the concept of risk/benefit ratio. This attitude is very similar to the misguided population of women who refuse mammography because of the increased radiation exposure. Both arguments are short sighted. Needless to say the individual benefits of vaccinating (and yearly screening Mammography) FAR exceeds the individuals risk of complication.
5
A symptom of the post 2016 era, where suspicion of expertise and institutional knowledge is rampant.
4
Decades ago, I was sent by a San Diego orchestra to pick up the legendary pianist Artur Rubenstein at the airport. A man in the line boarding the plane came over to tell him he was a great fan and apologized for missing his concert. Rubenstein mumbled thanks but was stunned when I mentioned that that person was Jonas Salk, the discoverer of the polio vaccine. He immediately turned toward the plane and, ignoring the shouts and staff efforts to stop him, went up the stairs of the plane to find Salk and tell him what an honor it was to meet him and thank him for the countless lives he saved all over the world. To dishonor this man and others who advanced medicine and lessened human suffering is hard for me to understand.
23
@Frankster speaking of classical musicians, I am sure Itzhak Perlman is grateful as well.
1
The very unscientific assumption here is that measles outbreaks are caused by the unvaccinated. Where's the proof. It's just speculation and conjecture. The fact is that there are studies indicating that over 30 percent of the afflicted have measles vaccine virus. Why do they catch this? Their immunity has worn out. China has multiple outbreaks, yet they have about 99 percent vaccine compliance. No mention in any of these articles is the number of adverse events that occur with vaccination. Not mentioning the close to $4 billion paid to vaccine injured individuals is fraudulent. And think about this, a vaccinated person whose immunity has waned, to my mind, is no different from someone who has never been vaccinated. Also consider that studies have shown that unvaccinated kids are much healthier than vaccinated kids. Consider also the concept of informed consent. Vaccinating against a person's is oppression. And where does that stop once you've set the precedent? The argument is like the border wall fake emergency.
3
Not enough people remember the horrors of yester year when infant and child mortality was a bygone conclusion...and its wasnt that long ago.Any trip to a local Victorian cemetary tell the tale of what could happen.
Like my grandmother would have said of these antivaxxers, "They havent eaten their bread in tears"
11
Incredible examples of propaganda on display here. Though it's presumably based on very good intentions, it's worth recognizing that most propaganda campaigns in history were probably motivated by "noble" intentions. The issues presented in Schoolhouse Rock were not contentious. (Concerning numbers, for instance, most of these issues were settled in Babylonia 4,000 years ago.) While the psychologically-based examples of fallacious logic here are well established, in general, the SPECIFIC examples used in "Foolhouse Rock" to illustrate these are actually what is in dispute. They correctly explain and justify cognitive principles, but include with these examples that are not warranted (here, at least). These examples are not independent of each other and they ALL support one side of the issue. Examples are typically LESS ambiguous or nuanced than the issue they are meant to clarify. Here the examples are LESS clear than what they are supposedly "clarifying". Manipulation 101... clearly designed for parents who grew up with Schoolhouse Rock. (As we did - and my wife and I find this almost blasphemous.)
I think I'll need more words....
2
I'm 45, so I never experienced life without most vaccines. It was never controversial or a "thing" to not be vaccinated.
When I was in college in the early '90's, my roommate returned from an international trip over the winter break with measles. She had been vaccinated but it was one of those rare cases where it wasn't effective. Her dad immediately let the university know what had happened. In order to return to campus, everyone had to produce evidence that they had been vaccinated and some people needed to be revaccinated before being allowed back on campus.
I don't recall any outrage from anyone. Everyone thought the university handled the situation well and everyone understood the importance of taking the proper steps to ensure the health of the community.
13
Refusal to have your children vaccinated is tantamount to shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater. Everyone knows that as an example of how freedom of speech doesn't allow you to shout dangerous things that would harm the masses. Refusal to vaccinate harms the masses; therefore, vaccination should be made mandatory.
5
I remember the polio epidemics. I remember schools not opening on schedule because of an epidemic. I remember my mother panicking whenever we kids got a summer fever. I was in a school district where the polio shots were being tested. I remember when the shots were declared effective and a neighbor boy’s dismay when his parents said he had to get the shots twice, because they didn’t know if he had gotten the ‘real’ vaccine or not. But most of all I remember being in a high school group which toured the iron lung facility in a Michigan hospital and the people the same age as I was then lying motionless unable to even breathe on their own. My kids were vaccinated and so are my grandchildren.
16
This video is actually part of the problem, not a solution. Calling those who simply question the frequency and timing of vaccines fools and anti-vaxxers (often they are not anti-vaccine at all) and talking to them like they are idiot children will not get them to listen any better or change their ways.
Browbeating, bullying and deriding new mothers, already in overwhelm, will not help convince them. Allowing them to freely question science in a non-threatening manner is more productive. After all, questioning science - especially established science with nothing to hide - IS science.
6
The latest victim of anti vaccine parents has been the boy who suffered the torments of the damned from tetanus. He was fortunate and survived but at the cost of close to a million dollars. Did his parents who caused this tragedy shoulder the cost? No. Were the parents charged with neglect? No. Did the parents accept the child being given a tetanus booster shot? No.
This child was fortunate. When I was a junior medical student a teen age boy came in from the Ozark's with tetanus. Given the sophistication of medical care at the time he died after a few weeks of misery. As the mother left the hospital she told me she knew her son would die because he was just as sick as an older sibling who died of tetanus a few years ago!
In my senior year I was responsible for a new born with tetanus because the umbilical cord was cut with a dirty scissors by a mid wife, and again from the Ozark's. The child died having no immunity transferred from his non immunized mother.
These were uneducated parents living in deep social isolation who believed in folk medicine.
Today it is the well to do and "educated" who refuse vaccination. Why?
12
There is no doubt in my mind that we are seeing outbreaks like measles, mumps, lide. Scabies etc die to the invasion of people from Central America.
We need to go back to the era of mandatory Quantines. All people coming from Central America should be put in quarantine for 30-60 days. Any with serious health problems should not be admitted to this country.
The American taxpayer should not be burdened with the cost of health care for immigrants who arrive with medical problems. They should be returned to their own country to seek treatment. I have read some interviews with caravan members who admit they are coming to the US to seek medical treatment. They should be deported immediately.
Also we need to watch out for immigrants that have been coaches in lies by lawyers. Lawyers who are trying to cover up illness or other problems that immigrant may have should be disbarred.
2
@judyweller A recent outbreak of measles was traced to a traveler from Israel. Do we quarantine ALL arrivals to our shores? Since we would have to quarantine everyone, citizen and non-citizen alike, a 30 or 60 day quarantine would instantly shut down international travel and trade.
1
For those who think vaccination doesn’t work.
https://www.who.int/features/2010/smallpox/en/
Do peruse the pix of sufferers. In some cases, the sores become so extensive that whole areas of skin slough off.
4
Every immigrant gets tested or shows proof of inoculation prior to entry; stop all illegal immigration. That would stem the return and rise in TB cases since the 1990s, too.
3
Make vaccines mandatory and get this nonsense over with.
13
No proof of vaccination....no school enrollment or child care.
11
I am 33 and was fully vaccinated as a child, although I cannot receive the necessary boosters because I am now immunocompromised from an autoimmune disease. Last week I read the story of the tetanus case in Oregon, and I realized that tetanus had just been a word to me - I didn't know what the symptoms were or how awful it was. Because vaccination had eradicated it. I think part of the problem is that the current generation of anti vaxxers don't remember these diseases or how terrible they were. Is polio going to have to come back for people to take them seriously? It seems like a lot of dead kids are going to be necessary for the anti vaccination crowd to get with the program, which is insane. Vaccines are a miracle of modern medicine, one we are willfully throwing away.
9
@Jennifer
Tetanus exists in soil and dust, and can enter the body through any kind of puncture wound (including splinters). It isn't transmitted person-to-person. Therefore, there is no herd immunity and it can't be eradicated, only protected against with a vaccination.
2
March 11, 2019
“In order that all men may be taught to speak the truth, it is necessary that all likewise should learn to hear it.” Samuel Johnson
ww.brainyquote.com/
JJA
3
If you look at the behavior of anti-vaxxers, I’ll tell you one thing that movie “Contagion,” got dead right: Jude Law’s character.
Because I promise you: if (actually, WHEN) something bad gets loose and starts spreading in this country, the anti-vaxxers will be first to shove their way to the head of the line for help, while screaming about how the CDC probably caused this and hawking gingkoba root to the suckers.
6
I know my neighborhood is a nest of anti-vaxxers. Recently, I took it upon myself to post opinions and articles that are pro-vaccination on our two neighborhood Facebook pages. Oh, the ignorant, hate-filled responses I received! Nobody wants the facts. The anti-vaxxers post and re-post their discredited sources.
I was pleased to see a post from one anti-vaxxer person this morning expressing her disgust that Facebook has taken down her posts!! Progress!!
11
Enough already with these idiot, irresponsible parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids! In order for civilization to endure, the well-being of the many must take precedence over the well-being of a few. We are NOT going to devolve as a society because of the nutjobs who refuse to assimilate into society. So, it goes like this. Vaccinate your kids and your animals do NOT belong everywhere - not on my flight, not in my coffee shop, not in my restaurant and not in my department store. Just stop!
4
I'm fully with the anti-vaccine crowd. They are victims of a pompous, unelected, educated elite. It is those same self-important types who decided that we are supposed to drive always on the right side of the road. There was no rule like this at the beginning of driving but was imposed by "those who know better" without the slightest regard for the rights of people to choose. Everyone can see that other countries drive on the other side of the road as if it were completely normal yet, if we did this, we would probably be arrested. One of so many ways our freedom is slipping away.
6
After reading (in the NYT) about the family whose unimmunized child developed tetanus, spent more than a month In hospital- intensive care rehab, etc. (costing over $800,000) and then the family refused further immunization it is clear too many of these anti-VAXX nuts are just that- crazy and willfully misinformed.
AT WHAT POINT DOES IT RISE TO THE LEVEL OF CHILD NEGLECT?
At the very least no unimmunized child should be allowed in day care of school (except for very carefully vetted true medical exemptions such as cancer...)
10
So it's a done deal. We are now officially in the censorship era, with the NYT leading the way. Huzzah! Nothing ironic about that at all. Not surprised. Last week The Washington Post ran an article whose lede about social media crackdown read "Pinterest will now be blocking search results related to vaccinations whether the results are medically accurate or not." Sounds to me like the definition of censorship. I've written three letters to the NYT related to this article from a vaccine safety standpoint. Not one of them published. I don't expect this one to be either. We are now officially owned by big pharma. Good luck! Let's change the pledge of allegiance to include a part where we swear our loyalty to Merck, Glaxo, Pfizer, Sanofi, Novo Nordisk, etc. And let's all pretend that the adverse effects written right on the box of the vaccines and on the CDC website don't exist. (fever, nausea, seizures, diarrhea, vomiting, Pneumonia, Diabetes, Anaphylaxis, aseptic meningitis, Vasculitis, Pancreatitis, parotitis, Panniculitis, Thrombocytopenia, leukocytosis, purpura, lymphadenopathy, angioneurotic edema, bronchial spasms, Arthritis, arthralgia, myalgia, Arthralgia, myalgia, paresthesia, Encephalitis, encephalopathy, measles inclusion body encephalitis, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE), Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS), etc. and so on. God Bless the Pharmaceutical States of America!
1
Beyond wondering when it because mandatory for private companies to spread your lies for you, I thought your deal was that CDC and Big Pharma refused to admit that vaccines ever cause reactions or have side effects.
7
So you want to make sure everyone gets vaccinated? End all insurance coverage (including Medicaid/Medicare and the like) for any and all costs arising from illness due to disease that can be prevented by vaccines. You want to be an anti-Vaxer? Fine. But the cost is on you.
7
We stop it by getting a vaccination.
5
This highlights the unspeakable selfishness and privilege of those who have never known the ravages of disease. How dare they throw away an opportunity to keep their children healthy when parents in other parts of the world would do anything, give anything, to save their children.
11
@Anonymous
some families have been ravaged by cancer and do not want to risk injecting a product that is not tested for carcinogenicity or mutagenicity.
1
Except they’ve been tested again and again, and the anti-vaxx crowd is STILL pushing a fake claim that came out of a batch of polio vaccines having been contaminated with SV 40 back around 1960.
No research evidence was ever found that there was any carcinogenesis, except in lab mice. Which are not, let it be noted, people.
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/04/did-the-polio-vaccine-cause-cancer/
5
@Robert
I was referring to the information that manufacturers put on the vaccine package insert.
This, from the Chicago Tribune, after the Oregon boy who contracted tetanus received treatment:
"Notably, physicians counseled the boy's family to bring the child up to date on all of his vaccinations, as well as receive a follow-up dose of the DTaP vaccine.
His family said no. Despite extensive review of the risks and benefits of tetanus vaccination by physicians, the family declined the second dose of DTaP and any other recommended immunizations, the CDC report stated."
Apparently having their son suffer an entirely preventable, life-threatening disease made absolutely no impression on these parents.
There is no "getting through" to people like this. Implement criminal penalties for their behavior, and enforce them. This is the only way we may stop these diseases before they truly become epidemics, and innocent people -- like the kids who have no say, and others who contract illnesses from these unvaccinated people -- suffer serious illness or death. These anti-vaxxers are delusional and their beliefs are a serious threat to public health.
8
I don't believe the harm caused by anti-vaxxers can be addressed by either lawmakers or social media. After all, we live in times when Republican lawmakers such as Paul are supporting the anti-vaxxers. And of course there are all sorts of fringe social media sites continuing to feed these peoples' ignorance so that they may continue to live in their paranoid echo chamber.
And they know that refusing to vaccinate their children may harm others with serious medical conditions. They just don't care. They believe their God given right to be ignorant allows them to put the rest of us at risk. It's all about them. Not one minute of consideration for anyone else.
The only way this anti-vaxxing idiocy can be stopped is to pass laws requiring that all people to receive vaccinations unless there is a medical reason for them not to, supported by a doctor's report. If parents don't abide by the law, they will be prosecuted.
If their unvaccinated children become seriously ill or die, then the parents should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
I'm of the age that I recall people actually arguing that they should be allowed to drive while intoxicated. Finally, groups such as Mothers Against Drunk Drivers changed public opinion, arguing that these drivers were putting many other people at risk. I doubt a similar argument would work with anti-vaxxers because of their resistance to facts and evidence. This is why they should face criminal prosecution, the sooner the better.
5
There is no science here. Vaccine 'science' is fraud. They torture an epidemiological study enough, it will confess to
anything. That is why they are so popular. Vaccine regulators and pharmaceutical companies can get
whatever conclusions they like. Unlike other sciences, doctors don’t need to understand the
mechanism behind anything. It is all about associations. This is junk science. No one in their right
mind would trust such ridiculous material. Medical science is becoming an oxymoron.
1
Your prose is beginning to degenerate, which is often what happens when people spend too much time shrieking nonsense.
12
@Lucy Silverstein
When my husband comes home today I will have to ask him, a virologist who studies the evolution of viruses and epidemiology, which studies he tortured today to perpetrate frauds upon innocent people. He doesn’t work directly with vaccines, so maybe he isn’t guilty in this case. But some of the information he publishes could conceivably be used by various vaccine science fraudsters. Of course, apparently the CDC, WHO, NIH, Danish government, my family pediatrician, all medical professionals, the military, pharmaceutical industry, scientific journals, and other ne’er-do-well scientists like my husband are all in on this vaccine science fraud. That’s a lot of people.
6
@SkL
maybe she's thinking about the Danish MMR researcher on the OIG wanted list. Not sure though.
There are many news reports in major online media about the problems with anti-vaxxers and how they put the rest of us at risk. These articles are too numerous to link here.
This makes one reflect on what is meant by fake news and how to combat the problem: https://www.brookings.edu/research/how-to-combat-fake-news-and-disinformation/ . I am not sure having an open discussion board dealing with such an entrenched problem is the best idea--although I support a free press.
Do you really need to give voice to the opponents who repeatedly distort and misuse scientific evidence? Do you really think this educates the wider public? Do you think any of this will make the anti-vaxxers change their minds? I have my doubts with all of this, although I am not sure there is a better way--but this seems to generate a lot of random noise.
A fifty state solution is likely not a good idea. This is not, on so many levels, a political problem to be put to a popular vote. Some of the comments I see here do not clarify much of anything (still leaving me with the problem of editorial control).
1
Rand Paul emitted that his own children have been vaccinated. Does he claim to have a “false sense of security” himself? Why wasn’t he called to explain that remark by his colleagues?
1
Aspects of the anti-vaccination movement remind me of politics today. People forget the things that benefit them - when the benefits becomes the norm. So as vaccines and safety have become the norm, so parents can be misled that they received no benefit - of course they did. So too with politics, our society works because of so many things we take for granted - from imperfect but useful public schools to the social safety net. But a voter can easily be misled to forget all the things done on his behalf.
4
@Terry McKenna
What you will find is that the anti-vaccination movement is mostly made up of formerly pro-vaccine parents who have had their child left disabled after a vaccine, so it is impossible for them to forget about what vaccines are capable of doing.
Ask them if they would have preferred their child to have a some spots, a fever and a runny nose for a week, they'll say "errrmm of course!"
What you’ll actually find is that the anti-vaxx movement is led by quacks, charlatans, wannabe celebs, far-right kooks, and religious fanatics who often get very well paid for spreading dangerous nonsense.
8
Mississippi mandates that all children have vaccines before entering public school. No exceptions (except for rare medical conditions affecting the immune system).
That is the solution. Who would have thought that Mississippi would lead the nation in a sensible solution?
5
@john Holcomb That's the same industry who brought us the opioid crisis, they are paying off Mississippi politicians instead of using the money to invest in making safer vaccine technology.
1
Measles is ineradicable with measles vaccination because immunity wains, measles anti-bodies are not transferred to infants, there are fewer members of the older generation with lifetime immunity. Vaccination keeps on having to be repeated, the vaccinated get the disease, often catching it from the vaccinated - so it’s a mess and not the time for a witch hunt.
What I do advocate against is handing ultimate power over our bodies to the state over a few (not exceptionally high number) of measles cases, with the possibility of unlimited mandates, which would be the totalitarian result of present moves. That is what is really in the balance: the state’s right to enforce not only the present products but any others nominated by its bureaucracy in the future and without any liability to the manufacturers, who have in the pipeline hundreds of new products.
If measles is really the issue and not the predatory rights of the industry, focus on measles and not taking away people’s rights.
5
@John Stone An outstanding response, spot on!
2
Yeah, sure, except that smallpox has been eradicated to the point that we don’t routinely get vaccinated any more, there are no cases of diptheria around, tetanus never touches the unvaccinated, polio’s so far gone in this country that kids get vaccinated only as a precaution against travellers, measles was amost unheard of until the anti-vaxxers wound themselves up, and so on.
As for the Black Helicopters jazz, it’s jazz.
Oh, a “wain,” is an archaic term for “cart,” as in the old name for the Big Dipper. “Wane,” is what happens when things slowly grow less and disappear, as most of the childhood diseases that used to kill tens of thousands of American kids every year have waned since the introduction of vaccines.
7
@Robert
Correct about mispelling. But the era of high childhood mortality was over before most of the vaccines were introduced. Two questions:
Do we have generally good child health?
How many new products is it OK to deliver to our children at the behest of the industry, and where does it end?
The NYT does not have the answer.
1
My kids received every available vaccinations and now I’m happy to see them vaccinating the grand kids. Because now they are protecting me. My immune system is now suppressed due to treatment for metastatic cancer. It’s possible the immunity I developed in childhood is not as strong as it once was. Since even a minor infection could rage through my system and kill me, I’m one of the people who have to rely on herd immunity. With a suppressed immune system I can’t even risk some vaccinations and others are considerably less effective for me. I have no understanding of how people can turn their backs on medical science. So many lives are at stake.
7
@Jean Sims Unfortunately despite popular belief vaccines do not stop viruses from spreading, they only stop the recipient from showing symptoms of the infection, but they will still spread the virus onto others.
1
@Lucy Silverstein
And again we see the influence of the Internet over actual education. Cite your source for your misleading claim. As that is what you are trying to do with this statement. You are trying to state the following logical fallacy.
"It doesn't work as advertised, therefore no one should get them."
The implied conclusion in your post screams loudly. However, we see what you are doing.
If the immune system has the appropriate antibodies, that that person stops being a vector to spread the disease. Your statement is incorrect and misleading, and should be condemned if you actually believe it. However, if you're just mistaken, I do hope you take a look at a basic high-school biology textbook.
9
Nonsense.
Look up the basics, Lucy.
Start with “ring vaccination.”
If you’re still not sure, ask one of the many proud members of Lions and Rotary who’ve done so much—despite the efforts of you and yours—to wipe out these preventable diseases around the world.
7
I am a teacher in a VERY large elementary school-about 1,000 children.
I am a teacher who has a compromised immunity from Diabetes and other conditions.
I do not want to be exposed to people who really do not care about the health and well-being of others.
If your child isn't vaccinated? I don't want them in my school.
14
@Laurie Ann Lawrence
The vaccination status of schoolchildren does not pose a significant risk to immunocompromised schoolchildren for the following reasons:
- Some vaccines cannot prevent the spread of the bacteria or viruses they target.
- Not all infectious diseases are contagious.
- Some infectious diseases are not spread in schools.
- Some infectious diseases rarely cause complications in immunocompromised schoolchildren.
- Immune globulin (plasma containing antibodies) is available for immunocompromised children exposed to certain infectious diseases.
1
Now you’re just getting silly, Lucy. The real howler is not knowing that by definition, an infectious disease is contagious. The only question is how it’s contagious.
Take measles. Measles can be airborne, and persists in the environment for the couple hours necessary to infect, say, a oediatrician’s whole waiting room. And infection rates are north of 80%. Unless you’re vaccinated or survived measles.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/transmission.html
Hey, ever looked up what typically happens to a developing fetus whose mom is exposed to rubella? Or is that just one of the smutty little details you lot orefer not to know?
5
The only concern that my wife and I had was the use of Thimerisol, which is mercury-based preservative, used in some vaccines. All it took was a little bit of leg work to discover that there were non-Thimerisol options readily available and we opted for those - same cost, covered by insurance just the same. The doctors/clinics we used were very accommodating, and we stuck to the normal immunization schedule for our children. I don't know if Thimerisol is on the anti-vaccination hit list, but if so, I wonder how much research into alternatives the average family that is concerned about it has done? Really not that hard, and both met our concerns as well as our responsibility to the greater community.
3
@TC
Good argument. A bad practice to make an expensive vaccine last longer on the shelf may cause some issues. However, it is a simple fact that even if everyone got a tiny amount of Hg in their systems, that injury is less than the injury to the entire community.
It shouldn't have to be that way, but then major funding would have to exist and be actively supported in order to create and store vaccines without such preservatives.
2
Vaccines are cheap, thimerosol hasn’t been used in regular kids’ vaccines in this country for a decade, and the Magic Machine we use for storage is called, wossname, a “Refrigerator.”
6
@Robert
its still in multidose flu shots, still given to pregnant women and children.
aluminum adjuvants are also used.
Here's an idea. How about doing away with the waivers parents must sign before their child gets vaccinated? They scare otherwise well-meaning parents into deciding against a vaccination to, ironically enough, protect their children from an allergic reaction.
3
@John The waivers are there to protect industry from each time someone is left disabled by a vaccine, which happens a far more often than most people have been led to believe.
1
@Lucy Silverstein, Great move, dropping a pretend fact into the brief little lesson. I think your reason is correct, people sue vaccine manufacturers and anyone else they can identify whenever anything bad happens; autism, cancer, Alzheimers disease. Then it gets handed to a jury to decide if the outcome can be traced to the supposed cause. Serious cancer epidemiologists throw up their hands in despair, since proving such a link in individual cases is nigh impossible. Large scale studies are not invoked, the decision is up to the well meaning, but not expert, jury. As you know well, many vaccine makers have been declared responsible, despite the impossibility of honestly reaching such a conclusion. Large scale, expensive research projects can identify possible culprits but they have no chance of convincing people when put up against dedicated conspiracy theorists like yourself.
9
That’s simply a lie, Lucy. For one thing, they’re not waivers: they’re informed consent forms, the very forms you lot claim aren’t there at all.
6
I agree that the vaccines should be mandatory, but I also understand the desires of personal liberty. And I understand that society has an obligation to quarantine individuals or whole families if they get such a disease and are not vaccinated. All should be true.
What this will lead to is the necessary course of evolution, where the unfit shall not survive. Here, unfit will mean not smart enough to understand, or in a sub-culture that does not condone, vaccination. They will be selected against.
This will increase suffering, but is a necessary result when people knowingly go against their own best interests.
Doctors will rightly try to alleviate the suffering, but that will mean triage. Triage may come to mean that those who will not participate in their own health cannot be helped.
4
I don’t really disagree, but I feel so terrible for the children who suffer because their parents are so easily swayed by online scare mongers. These kids have no say in the matter, and are so vulnerable as a result.
Look at the least vaccinated zip codes and you will find that they tend toward being the more educated, wealthier zip codes. And the areas hurt most by Trump's policies tend toward being the most pro-Trump. People believe what they want to believe.
Fake news? Alternative facts? It takes work to home in on reality, but to the extent that your choices will affect my life -- such as by bringing an unvaccinated child into school, the supermarket, or any other public place -- it's your obligation to do that work and not just lazily accept anecdotal (non)evidence that simply supports your current view. There is more scientific evidence for the virtues of mass vaccination, than there is for medium-term, devastating effects of anthropogenic global warming. And I would give 2-1 odds that most anti-vaxxers believe in the imminent risk of global warming.
For many people words such as "vaccination" have become symbols, not thought-out constructs with coherent substance. The hard work of understanding is out of fashion. Intellectual laziness, sadly, is very in.
The fundamental problem is that America (and the hard-won Western liberal tradition in general) is fast losing its sense of identity, of collective purpose, of faith in itself. Rather, we are seeing what I would call "group identity individualism", where every cohort (whether self or other defined) believes its particular identity is more important than the collective identity, American, more important than the collective good.
4
The question: how to stop it?
This is only complicated because of one conflict: the natural parental feeling of proprietary responsibility for one's children versus the common good. It may seem harsh, but we must insist that parents have the right to refuse vaccination for (not to!!) their children, but the community has both the right and the obligation to ban those children from appearing in any public place.
Of course one then also has to consider the communal responsibility to protect children from abusive parents, and refusing to vaccinate one's child (for other than legitimate medical reasons) certainly can be considered abusive. However, that is a complex and gray area, where solutions are far from simple.
For starters, we must insist anyone we vote for will vote to abolish all non-medical exemptions for kids in school. Then we need to get back (more complicated) to the understanding that the main purpose of schools is not merely to benefit the child, but to benefit the community by educating aware and responsible citizens. And that, of course, entails (as we will never develope the political will to abolish private schools) the insistence that all schools teach at minimum a fundamental curriculum which includes civics.
America is losing its sense of identity, of collective purpose, of faith in itself. Rather, we are seeing "group identity individualism", where every cohort believes it is more important than the collective America.
2
@Steve Fankuchen The same industry who tried to get the population hooked on opioids cannot be trusted as the guardian of public health.
Vaccine science is still primitive, using mostly epidemiological studies, it is time for independent research using mechanistic studies to be started, so as we can find out what vaccines are actually doing in the body and examine overall health outcomes.
Until then vaccines are no more than shots in the dark, they could be causing a lot more harm than good.
2
Let’s make sure that fundamental curriculum includes a rigorous science program. And required classes in logic and reason would be helpful as well.
2
@Lucy Silverstein
Again another false statement. You assert something untrue. Until anti-vaxxers such as yourself came along, many preventable diseases had been wiped out by vaccines. Now they are back. It's your fault. I hope your insurance agent knows about your views and acts accordingly.
8
We spread out some of the vaccines for our child. For example, they recommended Hep B vaccine at birth, but we waited until later since our infant was unlikely to either acquire or spread Hep B, since it's blood borne and also often sexually transmitted. The at-birth recommendation for Hep B vaccine in the hospital felt like more of a public health precaution to catch people who may never show up again in the system for the vaccine. So if you feel disconcerted by the number of vaccines recommended for infants, consult with your doctor, because you may be able to spread them out without compromising either herd immunity or your own child.
2
And you can guarantee that your child will never, ever, ever be exposed in any way to anything that transmits Hep B. Which include bodily fluids as well as blood.
https://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/hbv/bfaq.htm#bFAQc01
@SylivaDenmark doesn't have Hep B vaccine on the childhood schedule at all.
@Syliva
Yes, it's like when you adopt a dog from the animal shelter and they require that they're spayed or neutered before they go out the door.
2
While I appreciate the idea of a School House Rock parody, this one asks too much from its audience and misses the mark. The concepts (confirmation bias, et. al.) are real but the explanations are both complex and so off-topic to the point of being mind-numbing. I can't keep up with all the words (the lyric is so busy!) and the mix is bad, making them even harder to understand. The use of science-math concepts and explanations to those who are suspicious of science in the first place creates even more reason for them to be that way. Many arguments raised here in the comments section do a better job of explaining in real terms why anti-vax is so misguided.
1
I am not an anti-vaxer, but I am fascinated by the debate. One of my former college roommates is and she is highly educated and IMO, not someone who is otherwise prone to hysteria. I can't help but think that name-calling is unlikely to encourage anyone to come around to your side. Also, I find it curious that thousands (sometime tens of thousands) - usually including a couple hundred children - die each year from another highly infectious disease, the flu. And yet we do not require people to get flu shots. The inconsistency in policy can only fuel mistrust among those prone to suspicion.
Also, I feel like the thing that goes unacknowledged in this debate is the cost - financial and emotional - of having a special needs child. To put it kindly, it is a lifelong challenge for which there is precious little support. I have seen it bankrupt families and ruin marriages. Let's not forget the worry for a parent about who will care for that child once they are gone. In light of that concern, I have more sympathy for a person who takes drastic steps - even misguided ones - to try to avoid that outcome. I can't help but think that with better support systems in place for special needs children and their families, parents would be less terrified of that possibility. Perhaps, we should take the energy that goes into shaming those parents and turn it toward establishing better health care and social support systems.
1
@Josie I do not have any more sympathy for anti-vaxxers than I do for drunk drivers, indoor smokers or anyone else who selfishly endangers others under the auspices of personal freedom, religion, or because they are irrationally afraid or just plain ignorant. While there are many areas in which American healthcare and social support systems are lacking, this is not one of them: The facts about vaccine safety and effectiveness are widely available. Just like drunk drivers and indoor smokers, anti-vaxxers are fundamentally selfish; they do not care about other people's rights, freedoms and safety. I think it's beyond time that the law and society treat anti-vaxxers for what they are – selfish, ignorant, reckless child abusers who should know better but nevertheless still choose to imperil others. The law should punish them, and society should shun them.
3
I understand what your saying, but I don’t know if even a robust support system can ease the minds of people who fear having a child with a disability.
1
@Josie
you seem to imply that "special needs" are due to autism from vaccines. WRONG. the real risk is encephalitis from measles, congenital rubella causing deafness, blindness, microcephaly, and meningitis (some bacterial meningitis causing strains can be prevented with immunization. ) if you care about the cost of special needs kids... get your kids and yourself immunized.
4
Trust must be earned and cannot be dictated.
The medical establishment admits after billions and decades wasted, it has no answers for the root cause of food allergies, asthma, autism or autoimmune diseases such as type 1 diabetes. Anyone who does not know the root cause of food allergies, autism, asthma and type 1 diabetes, is unqualified to make claims about vaccine safety. Since the ME admits they don’t know the root cause of all these diseases, they are definitely unqualified to make claims about vaccine safety.
2
@Lucy Silverstein
But we do know the root causes of diseases like measles, polio, mumps, pertussis, rubella, etc... And we can prevent them with vaccines. I’d rather have a child with asthma, diabetes, allergies, or autism than one dead from the whooping cough. And, by the way, simply because we don’t know all the causes for food allergies, asthma, autism and diabetes doesn’t mean that vaccines cause these conditions. In fact, we have enormous amounts of evidence that vaccines do not cause these conditions.
13
@SkL Here's the problem, one needs to be able to make a risk/benefit assessment of each specific vaccine, but one cannot if one does not know which health complications they are causing and how frequently.
By the way, you are incorrect about there being 'enormous amounts of evidence' to show that vaccines do not cause allergies and autoimmune diseases, in fact the volume of scientific evidence is quite to the contrary, it's just that only people who read medical journals will find it, as the media have been convinced by special interests that it would be 'irresponsible' to bring it to the attention of the masses. (the media simply pushes out pharma PR)
With certain vaccines (such as tetanus) it has been shown that they increase all-cause mortality, this is a big problem and illustrates why we cannot continue to use purely epidemiological studies to back up vaccine science, as you can 'prove' anything with them, it has limited confidence and is insufficient, it is how the tobacco industry used to 'prove' that smoking was safe. What we really need is mechanistic studies as they provide convincing evidence, but pharma are scared of proper studies as it will no doubt uncover much vaccine-induced harm.
The current vaccines are no more than shots in the dark, their recommendation is not based on empirical evidence.
5
@Lucy Silverstein
"The current vaccines are no more than shots in the dark, their recommendation is not based on empirical evidence."
Smallpox has been eradicated and polio has been eradicated in most places. Measles used to kill millions around the world, but has been greatly reduced and was eliminated in the US.
What more evidence do you need?
Do you really want to bring these back?
6
There are many credible professional physicians - immunologists and researchers -- who do not uphold the current party line of the CDC. In 1986, Congress created the vaccine court to hear cases of verified adverse events and award damages, in return for vaccine manufacturers' protection from liability. Approximately $4billion has been paid out to vaccine-injured victims since 1988 -- in response to only 31% of filed petitions. Critics from within medicine insist that the dangers are real and serious, yet little research is being done to identify the factors that predispose certain subsets of children to great risk.
In veterinary medicine, the trend to avoid over-vaccinating, by verifying immune status with titer testing, and recognizing that overvaccinating is implicated in many chronic diseases is leading to better health outcomes for pets - even though pharmaceutical companies, and especially corporate vet clinics, still push for excessive vaccination protocols.
Certainly there are ignorant conspiracy theorists out there. But remember, we live in a country in which we endangered ourselves by improper and unregulated use of antibiotics, even after many scientists understood the risk. They braved ridicule and professional damages from industry for 3 decades before any brakes were applied. Some companies got very rich. And we are worse off because of it. When scientists shill for industry, trust is inevitably - and properly - forfeited, and real knowledge loses.
4
@Laurie Raymond
While all that might be true, the risks inherent in getting measles are far greater than those of getting the vaccine. And the chance of getting the measles increases as fewer and fewer people get vaccinated. Look at it this way: many "non-elective" surgeries etc have inherent risks, but few people would say that the risks outweigh the benefits for otherwise healthy people who are not already near death. If I were diagnosed with an operable, treatable cancer, I would not skip surgery due to the risk of dying of an infection, for example. Even though infection is, in fact, a risk with any surgery or hospital stay.
7
@Syliva
The non-profit organization Physicians for Informed Consent recently reported in the BMJ that every year an estimated 5,700 U.S. children (approximately 1 in 640) suffer febrile seizures from the first dose of the MMR vaccine, which is 5 times more than the number of seizures expected from measles. This amounts to 57,000 febrile seizures over the past 10 years due to the MMR vaccine alone. And, as 5% of children with febrile seizures progress to epilepsy, the estimated number of children developing epilepsy due to the MMR vaccine, in the past 10 years, is 2,850. Cited in Acta Scientific Paediatrics by dr. K. Paul Stoller. My point is that, as Congress affirmed after extensive liability hearings weighing individual risk vs public health interest, we should be studying vaccine interactions (the protocol is heavy today with multiple shots given at one time, and in a short window of infant development, with drug interactions poorly understood) and looking for ways to identify risk rather than piling on increasing numbers of "mandatory" vaccines and hiding the actual numbers and severity of adverse events.
3
It astonishes me that you didn’t name any of these heroes, equated applying for compensation with actually being entitled to compensation, ignored the public’s role in probs with antibiotic overuse, and flat-out lied about vets running expensive titer tests on every kitty and doggy.
Oh, wait...it doesn’t astonish me at all. It’s what I expect.
5
It would appear that the real problem is that superstition and ignorance are making a comeback. With the vast documentation we have of the history of human disease and the clear data about how many deaths and disabilities have been prevented because of vaccine technology, vaccinating should be a no brainer. And it was. But not anymore. Our society is regressing. Next up—refusal to wash your hands.
Not vaccinating your children for any reason other than legitimate medical ones is irresponsible, ignorant and selfish. However, as much anger and frustration as I feel over people choosing to believe utter nonsense and lies rather than facts, medical experts and scientists, that dopey little cartoon video is not the way to change anyone’s position. We need serious public service campaigns like they had for smoking when they interviewed hospitalized ex-smokers in wheelchairs breathing through tubes in their throats. We need scary pictures and videos of the horror that these diseases were and still are in some parts of the world. People simply need to be scared of these diseases again.
9
‘Next up, not washing your hands.’ Please don’t give them ideas. Pretty soon we’ll be hearing that hand washing disrupts our natural bodily flora, or confuses our biome or some such nonsense.
2
@Jennifer Or we'll hear that antibiotics lead to the development of resistant bacteria.
Oh, wait...
While the 92% U.S. measles vaccination rate may seem impressive, it's actually a somewhat concerning number given the recommended threshold for herd immunity for measles is 93-95%. Herd immunity is critical for protecting those among us who CANNOT be vaccinated, like the very old, very young, immuno-compromised (like HIV and chemo patients), and those in whom the vaccine does not "take." And this overall U.S. vaccination number obscures the fact that some communities have vaccination rates far below even 92%, triggering this outbreaks.
Given this, it's even more concerning that so many of these anti-vax groups are targeting vulnerable communities — especially communities of color and immigrant communities — with their propaganda (see: what happened to the Somali community in Minnesota). It's just so rich that many of these infectious diseases were originally brought over by white colonizers, killing thousands of indigenous peoples, and now, after we have the medical interventions to PREVENT these kinds of natural disasters, white anti-vaxxers are targeting people of color with their toxic and deadly nonsense.
7
Simple solution is to permit public schools to release names of children who are not vaccinated. A little public shaming goes a long way.
6
@Sam
Even better, we know that diseases are spread first by physical proximity. Therefore, all anti-vaxxer neighbors should have their insurance rates raised. That knowledge could easily be culled from "Big Data" searches, and likely would be quite robust. Then the next-door neighbors could actually do something about it.
Think about it. If you lived in an apartment building with kids and learned you lived next door to an anti-vaxxer with kids, you would do everything in your power to get them evicted.
Landlords, condominium boards, and public housing authorities should all be made aware of a public threat in their midst. When a criminal is in an apartment, we learn about it when the police come. There is a residual effect on property values. Anti-vaxxers in your condo or co-op, or even as a next-door neighbor should be enough to lower property values.
Someone should make an app for it.
1
@Sam Fixing the vaccines seems like a better solution, making them safe enough that people will actually want them
1
I never had my own children. If I did I'd get them vaccinated ASAP, especially in light of the fact that many people aren't getting their children vaccinated. My dog is vaccinated, protecting him and other dogs.
10
It is worth collecting into one document the many statements prominent politicians have made in support of anti vaxers. The ones that come to mind are Rand Paul, Ben Carson, and Donald Trump. Many people have thought that such supportive comments are not worthy of serious attention, since they are so seriously lacking in thought, branding the babbling politician as a complete fool. Sadly, there seem to be many ordinary citizens out there too limited to parse these comments. What we need are more state laws that severely narrow the grounds for refusing vaccinations, requiring compelling evidence of an serious inability to have vaccination. Conspiracy theories are often funny, but this one is putting many people at serious risk. Rand Pauls concern about freedom to reject is weird. Living together in densely populated cities requires acceptance of measures for the public good, including arrest for crimes, quarantine if one has contracted contagious diseases, protecting those undergoing chemotherapy by getting vaccinated etc. Some choose to really live off the grid, and if that means never coming into contact with others, off-gridders should be free to adopt whatever rules they want. Libertarianism is only OK for a severely depopulated world.
4
@WHM There are still some honest politicians speaking out against vaccines, but unfortunately many have been paid off by Big Pharma
1
2 points. It's a little disconcerting the see babies receive 12 shots in their first year and dozens more by age 5...The elephant in the room not mentioned; the millions of children brought across the border unvaccinated exposing US children new virulent strains unseen here for decades.
3
@Lane
Citation needed.
5
@Lane You find the number of shots disconcerting? I find it disconcerting that I'm a having a c-section in three weeks in the midst of a measles outbreak because people refuse to vaccinate their children. I wish they could immunize my son against measles (and pertussis) even before we leave the hospital like they do with Hep B.
8
@Lane - if your second point is true, it's lucky that babies get their shots before exposure, right?
2
Look at the least vaccinated zip codes and you will find that they tend toward being the more educated, wealthier zip codes. And the areas hurt most by Trump's policies tend toward being the most pro-Trump. People believe what they want to believe.
Fake news? Alternative facts? It takes work to home in on reality, but to the extent that your choices will affect my life -- such as by bringing an unvaccinated child into school, the supermarket, or any other public place -- it's your obligation to do that work and not just lazily accept anecdotal (non)evidence that simply supports your current view.
There is more scientific evidence for the virtues of mass vaccination, than there is for medium-term, devastating effects of anthropogenic global warming. And I would give 2-1 odds that most anti-vaxxers believe in the imminent risk of global warming.
For many people words such as "vaccination" have become symbols, not thought-out constructs with coherent substance. The hard work of understanding is out of fashion. Intellectual laziness, sadly, is very in.
The fundamental problem is that America (and the hard-won Western liberal tradition in general) is fast losing its sense of identity, of collective purpose, of faith in itself. Rather, we are seeing what I would call "group identity individualism", where every cohort (whether self or other defined) believes its particular identity is more important than the collective identity, American, more important than the collective good.
4
The question: how to stop it?
This is only complicated because of one conflict: the natural parental feeling of proprietary responsibility for one's children versus the common good.
It may seem harsh, but we must insist that parents have the right to refuse vaccination for (not to!!) their children, but the community has both the right and the obligation to ban those children from appearing in any public place.
Of course one then also has to consider the communal responsibility to protect children from abusive parents, and refusing to vaccinate one's child (for other than legitimate medical reasons) certainly can be considered abusive. However, that is a complex and gray area, where solutions are far from simple.
For starters, we must insist anyone we vote for will vote to abolish all non-medical exemptions for kids in school. Then we need to get back (more complicated) to the understanding that the main purpose of schools is not merely to benefit the child, but to benefit the community by educating aware and responsible citizens. And that, of course, entails (as we will never develope the political will to abolish private schools) the insistence that all schools teach at minimum a fundamental curriculum which includes civics.
To repeat: America is losing its sense of identity, of collective purpose, of faith in itself. Rather, we are seeing "group identity individualism", where every cohort believes it is more important than the collective America.
1
The drug-store aisle that stocks all types of cards will have to expand.
What kind of card can a parent send to neighbors and strangers if someone else's child suffers severe complications, or worse, from infection passed by the unwilling parent's infected child?
What thank you note does one of these parents send the rest of us, if they skip vaccinating their kids, yet everyone else's responsible behavior saves their own child from disease?
And what gift can grown children give their parents if willful failure to vaccinate them when young results in shingles (chicken pox) or possibly serious cancers (HPV)?
2
Under the category of leadership, where is our Surgeon General in all this? "America's Doctor" should be speaking up, using his bully pulpit to emphasize the importance of vaccinations. So far, there has been silence from him.
158
@CH Admiral Jerome Adams, MD has addressed the measles outbreak. BTW - he is an awesome human being. It would be great if he got elected to high national office. I hope he is considering that.
He may be a high ranking member of the Trump administration, but he is no Donald Trump.
11
@CH Admiral Adams came out to WA recently to visit the area of the current measles outbreak. He made very strong statements about the importance of immunization, and met with vaccine-hesitant parents. Several made compelling statements about how informative and reassuring he was. He's on the right side in this debate.
13
@CHVaccinations have been so accepted for so many decades....and they were the answer to so many parents tearful prayers ...and still are.......... I guess no one ever thought anyone would question them.
6
I was in Afghanistan in 2004, and it was fairly common for our docs, depending on resources and the security situation, to provide vaccinations to the locals. It made good sense: it builds rapport, improves local health, and helps protect us because the herd immunity stretches farther. I was pulling gate guard in September or October of that year when an Afghan arrived carrying his adult son on his back. It took a while with a translator and a medic, but we eventually figured out his son had had polio, and he'd brought him from their village several days away because he'd heard that we could cure him (Polio is still endemic in Afghanistan).
We can't, of course, and once the medic explained that to him, the man sobbed. I have never seen or heard another human being weep with that level of despair. The translator persuaded them to stay at the Egyptian hospital while their doctors constructed some braces to help the young man walk. I was on guard about a week later when the father showed back up - towing his entire village with him. He went back home and brought everyone else he knew to get vaccinated. There must have been 60 people with him.
This man walked across an active war zone - twice - on the strength of a RUMOR that we could cure polio, though the Taliban would have killed him if they'd learned he'd gone to us for help. An illiterate Afghan farmer is a better parent than the "educated" American who won't vaccinate their kid because Jenny McCarthy says not to.
421
@Alexandra
I wish everyone would read your story. It’s so heartbreaking. Childhood vaccines are free here. They are easy and accessible to all. That parents in this country so foolishly turn down for their children and their society what others around the world would risk their lives for should really make them stop and think.
How as a country have we become so spoiled and so ungrateful for this particular medical technology?
69
@Alexandra. as someone whose sister got polio a few months before the vaccine was readily available in the US, I am heartbroken every time I read about people like the man you mentioned whose son was felled by the disease -- but heartened by the end of the story that he was able to save others. My little sister's polio ruined her life and blighted our family for our entire lives. She died last month from complications of post-polio syndrome. Now I'm the only family member left. It's a horrible, horrible disease. Please, let's prevent it from ever causing death and despair in the US again. DH
90
@Alexandra thank you for sharing this heartbreaking and yet uplifting story of this brave father trying to do the best for his child.
58
It is time too make vaccinations mandatory and failure to do so unlawful. Individual rights end when the danger to the community and to innocent children is considerable. States can start right now to pass such laws with consequences that limit children of parents who don’t vaccinate access to public venues like public and private schools. Children who do get mumps, measles, etc must be quarantined by law.
Extreme cases like the one regarding the 6 year old boy who suffered unimaginable pain because of his parents refusal of the tetanus vaccine is child abuse and should result in loss of custody.
It is time to end this foolish individual practice that is endangering others and the world.
127
@Gwen Vilen I agree. There should not be any exemptions in Any state other than immune compromised people or under the age of first vaccination. Vaccinations are one of the most successful medical breakthroughs of all time. We should be grateful and happy to have them to protect us. We cannot allow other citizens' misplaced distrust and paranoia to ruin the health of other citizens.
20
@Gwen Vilen
The WORST part of that story? Even after the hell their child endured for two months, THEY REFUSED to finish inoculating their child.
This, at least to me, is parental abuse and negligence.
33
@Gwen Vilen. After a measles outbreak caused by someone who infected others at Disneyland, California passed a comprehensive law in 2015 requiring proof of vaccinations before a child can be enrolled in public or private school or daycare. The law eliminated personal belief exemptions and allows only medical exemptions, based on a written statement from a physician. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Senate_Bill_277
The law is mostly working. Vaccination rates among California kindergartners increased from 90.4% in 2014-15 to 95.1% in 2017-18. But medical exemptions have also increased. While many of the medical exemptions are legitimate, public health officials are concerned that a few physicians are writing unjustified exemptions. The law needs to be strengthened on enforcement of the medical exemption provision. See this excellent article from the Los Angeles Times. https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vaccine-medical-exemptions-20181029-story.html
18
I worked in a vaccination clinic for a few years.
The stories I would hear about why their children should either not be vaccinated or on a delayed schedule were ridiculous. Some of the parents would actually threaten me.
I have a child that is deaf from my having rubella during pregnancy.
I had the measles as a child.
Try telling this to the anti-vaxxers and I might as well be talking to a wall.
One day a man brought his 10 year old son in for the MMR vaccine. His son was autistic. He said to me, I refused to vaccinate my child because I thought it would cause autism and my son got autism anyway (and NOT from the vaccine).
88
@esp I am on the high-functioning end of the autism spectrum and I grew up before the MMR vaccine existed. Same with my husband.
I think engineering and physics have a lot high-functioning autistic people working in them. But the problem is, nobody screened our generation for this when we were little. Now we find that many "nerds" in the "nerd industries" are getting late-life diagnoses, finding out that their weirdness and difference from others and eccentricities have a name.
7
@esp
Out of curiosity, I looked up autism rates from the CDC this weekend. The report was rather old but the results were shocking. I'm spit balling a bit here but the numbers are correct in general.
A 25-30 year old woman has about a 1,200 chance of developing a child with down-syndrome. The chance of developing a child with ADS in the same age group during the 1990s was about 1 in 200. That number fell to about 1 in 60 during the 2000s. Research suggests the drop is associated with increased awareness and identification of the disease as well as increasingly delayed maternity.
In other words, there isn't actually more ADS. We're getting better at identifying ADS and women in the 25-30 age bracket are generally getting closer to 30 than 25 when they have children.
Interestingly, the first child is at a higher risk of developing ADS. This risk grows along with the age of the mother when she has her first child. Something like 3x if you have your first child after 35 if I remember correctly.
Even more interesting, evidence suggests ADS is developed in utero. However, the disease cannot be diagnosed before 2 years at the earliest and generally more like 3 or 4. Meaning, of course, the syndrome is already present before any post-natal vaccinations take place.
The one off-setting relief is 44% ADS cases are mild to the point of almost unnoticeable. Still, 1 in 60 even for mothers in prime fertility is a pretty harrowing statistic.
3
A relative by marriage, who refused to vaccinate her son, freely admitted that she had been properly vaccinated herself. And then she stormed out of the room, unwilling to answer the logical question about why it was OK for her to be immunized but not her son. I bet the majority of anti-vaxxers were themselves vaccinated as children, yet deny their own kids that protection. How does that make sense?
87
@PKN
They are terrified of autism. So, they make they calculation of no vaccine vs. the chance of themselves dealing with a lifelong child disability.
3
@PKN If a person is addicted to smoking, it doesn't mean they want their child addicted to smoking. A parent generally wants to best for their child, so they will often buy organic food for their toddler, while not eating organic food themselves. The parent may be overweight, but not want their child to be overweight too.
Also the vaccine schedule used to be tiny, it was of no comparison to the huge overloaded schedule of 2019.
@Prant That is one risk, many parents are also worried about other known vaccine risks such as epilepsy, asthma, MS, diabetes type 1 etc. Whereas people are as worried about mild short-term viruses like chicken pox, measles etc
I remember growing up in the 1970's, before all vaccinations were mandatory, my cousin getting the mumps. He was quarantined in his apartment for some time. While that saved me from him being a thorn in my side, it also proved just how awful those diseases were. When I had kids, I made sure they were vaccinated with any and all vaccines the doctors felt necessary. Not one of my children, friends of my children or any one that I can recall were ever adversely affected by them. Rubbish to anyone who still clings to the notion that vaccines are bad.
127
@SweetestAmyC: I also remember those days. I was a teen in the 70s. I had my vaccinations but I remember my 3 neighbor friends across the street, whose dad was a big, healthy, strapping construction worker. He contracted mumps and had to be hospitalized. He nearly died.
15
@SweetestAmyC
In the early '50s my brother and I got the mumps and spent our time in our grandmother's apartment watching I Love Lucy and trying to eat ice cream. This is not to minimize the awful pain we were in....for about a week. I can't recall if we got the measles. Vaccines are a blessing. I find anti-vaxxers incomprehensible.
11
@SweetestAmyC It is worth noting that the scientists who created the mumps vaccine for Merck have since admitted that Merck told them to fake the test results using rabbit antibodies, so as the vaccine would make it to market. The reality is that the vaccine wasn't very good, and still isn't, unfortunately it is another case of fraud.
Also keep in mind that if a female catches mumps she is protected from ovarian cancer, so many will argue it is sexist to not allow females to catch mumps naturally.
Are health care workers struggling to persuade wary parents that vaccines are safe? I'm not so sure. I've heard a few anecdotes from parents lately that lead me to doubt this assumption.
The one story that sticks out in my mind was a gynecology office recommending various treatments. However, after making the recommendations, the nurse left the patient to schedule all the actual treatments on her own.
From the mother's telling, it was sort of like having a doctor recommend the flu shot and then telling you to go find a grocery store that provides flu shots. The doctor is pretty sure they are affordable and who knows? Maybe your insurance will cover it. You'll have to go check.
3
@Andy - ah, the old "I've heard a few anecdotes" proves everything again.
Regarding flu, all the drug stores around me offer flu shots every season. Not where you live? And a flu shot is not the same as childhood vaccinations.
1
@b fagan
It's a valid question. In the same way we question whether hospitals in anti-abortion states actually inform patients of their abortion rights, we should wonder how strenuously some health workers are advocating vaccines.
I can't get every patient to share their medical experience with me. I don't know that many new parents or expecting parents. So yes, I have to respond anecdotally.
Anecdotally, it seems some heath care workers are at best indifferent to truly promoting vaccination.
By the way, the flu shot was a simile to help people, like most men, understand the woman's prenatal experience in a gynecologist's office.
You forgot basic regulation:
- Require vaccinations for kids to attend school. Period, no exceptions.
- Require that treatment of unvaccinated children who contract the disease be paid for by the parents. The Oregon case is an example, that $800k hospital bill should not be paid by you and me, it should be paid by the idiots who created the problem.
- Allow insurers to avoid payment for treatment of a disease for which the parents willfully left their children unvaccinated.
Simple, fair steps that would solve the problem.
4
@Jon
You need to have medical exceptions. For those with compromised immune systems MMR vax may not be safe. Other than that, I agree. No silly religious or "philosophical" exceptions. Vax or home school.
5
@J Darby
do you think physicians know who will be injured by vaccination, to the point of brain damage, ahead of time?
do they test for mitochondrial problems, like in Hannah Polings case?
and if your Dr guesses wrong, does he have any responsibility?
(no)
Rand Paul is a moron if he thinks the right to be a public health risk is a right that is in the constitution. Vaccines are required by law because it isn’t. If states won’t protect public health by limiting vaccine exemptions to true cases of medical need, then maybe we need federal action. It’s not like Measles respects state borders anyway.
Anti-vaxxers claimed “right to choose” is really just the right to infect others. And other parents’ kids are just as valuable as the anti-vaxxers’, and are deserving of full legal protection from this public health menace.
6
@Mark Josephson
There is no other way to say it: Rand Paul is indeed an idiot.
He's a fool who adores to remind us he's a doctor, yet he is ignorant of the barest ways of science, the duty of a physician.
As an erstwhile libertarian, he surely recognizes that one person has no inherent right to impose a fatal burden on another. Yet he so argues, or rather mumbles, here.
As for the foolish parents of the unfortunate child with tetanus, a child whose life was saved at the eleventh hour by a tetanus vaccination, they refuse to finish the treatment.
It doesn't matter what these lunatic parents say, there is clearly something more operating in their wee heads than concern for the safety of vaccination.
The boy had a vaccination. He not only survived, he thrived. Yet they refuse.
We all know, once insurance companies wise up and cease paying for all conditions resulting from failure to vaccinate the majority of these boobies will trundle their babies off to get shot.
Meantime, there is no right for an vaccinated child to attend public school, or the movies, or a grocery store.
And if some errant DeVos faux education outpost decides to profit from the reject families of anti-vaxers, they ought to be required to post notice they are doing so.
No one has a right to wreck centuries of science, to put the nation at risk, simply to force bizarre ideologies on the people as a whole.
Rand Paul certainly knows better, he just hasn't the morality to say so.
1
Parents that deny their own children their vaccines have no idea what they're doing and the harm they are causing to their kids but also to society at large. It is akin to child abuse.
I assume most of these parents have themselves been immunized as children and have no clue what suffering is involved in these diseases- and in some cases, require hospitalization or worse.
One of the ways to coerce parents to get their children vaccinated is for all insurance companies to deny coverage for any costs incurred as a result of illness from these diseases that could have been avoided if they had indeed been vaccinated.
The message is simple- if you don't vaccinate your kids, then you are responsible for the cost of disease treatment. When you hear of people who are stuck with huge medial bills, you may change your mind about vaccinations.
Insurance companies should not be stuck with paying these medical bills since it results in everyone's insurance premiums going up. Society should not pay for others' blatant ignorance.
Do the right thing and get your kids immunized.
7
Rand Paul says vaccines provide a "false sense of security." The press needs to hit him with a follow-up question: What's false about it? Is he saying vaccines don't protect us?
The benefits of vaccination are very real, both for the individual and those around them. As a doctor, Paul knows this, but he still resorts to misinformation to support his radical political views. KY needs to ditch BOTH of their Senators for the health of the nation.
4
@Jomo
I think Rand Paul might be saying (correctly) that not all vaccines offer 100% guaranteed immunity. It's particularly true of whooping cough. Say I have the MMR vaccine. I'm still not gonna go out and lick someone who has the measles. Vaccines are only a "false sense of security" if you think they give you license to be complete idiot. Also many vaccines, including flu, may not prevent the disease, but they may mean you don't get as sick.
Health insurance companies are distributing this health risk amongst the population. Jack up those insurance rates on the unvaccinated or provide deep discounts for those taking the time to insure they and their dependents are properly vaccinated. You don’t want to get vaccinated, putting yourselves and others at risk? Fine! But don’t expect the rest of us to financially support your decisions.
6
Disclosure part 1. Probably the most significant event of my life was the loss of my mother during a polio epidemic. I survived; she did not.
Disclosure part 2. I am pro-vaccination.
Having said that, it is my position that under no circumstances should vaccinations be forced against either the wishes of the parents, or of the patient (if of age).
The reason for this stance is that to do otherwise undermines the doctrine of self-determination of a course of medical treatment. If vaccinations (or any other medical treatment) are forced, it opens us to the slippery slope of government agencies determining when, under what conditions, and what, medical attention any individual will receive, regardless of the wishes of that individual. Such an outcome is incompatible with the tenets of a free society.
If parents (or the patient, if of age and sound mind) refuse vaccines then fine. No public school, no public gatherings, can't use public transportation, stay in your home where you won't compromise the herd immunity.
That you refuse vaccination does not mean you have the right to endanger others by your (in)action.
But no forced vaccinations. Under no circumstances. No forced medical treatment whatsoever. Let there be consequences to your actions to be sure, and let these consequences be personal and drastic if necessary, but the threat from forced medical treatment is arguably worse than that from the disease itself.
29
@Alternate Identity. How do you intend to enforce these people not going public gatherings or using public transportation? It is impossible to know who is and who isn't vaccinated just by looking at them.
43
@Alternate Identity No public school, no public gatherings, can't use public transportation, stay in your home where you won't compromise the herd immunity.
And the anti-vax parents would just comply and hide their children in a closet so they could never play with any other children or contact other citizens, particularly babies before they are vaccinated. Really? And isn't hiding your children in a closet and not allowing them to play with other kids or interact with the local letter carrier, the glazier, or their cousins considered child abuse? Since there would not be voluntary compliance, a government official would have to be posted at every bus stop and subway entrance and check vaccination records. Now wouldn't that be a dandy invasion of privacy? As for government determining medical treatment, something quite different from vaccinating _before_ someone gets sick or hurt, why in the world would government want to do that? How does that protect the public? No government official told my parents or friends what treatment they should get when they got sick. Insurance companies, on the other hand, do it all the time. My uncle checked himself out of the hospital when he was suffering kidney failure because he didn't want to be an attachment to a dialysis machine. The doctors told him he'd die in five days. He did. No one stopped him from signing the papers though, even though they made his kids be vaccinated. Impractical and spurious arguments above, I'm afraid.
23
Tripping lightly by the fact that this endangers others, your fantasy of consent is a fantasy.
Look at the comments from anti-vaxxers. They’re generally scientifically ignorant, reflect a pathetic belief in crooks like Wakefield and amateurs like McCarthy, and are pathetically spelled. And, they’re filled with flat-out lies and “questions,” that have been answered again, again, and again.
That’s not consent based on competence and knowledge. It’s dangerous ignorance.
48
I had chickenpox and mumps in first grade. I'm glad I dodged the measles since I was born before the vaccine was available. Chickenpox was bad: you feel crummy, itch like hell and smell awful from the sores. Mumps was worse: really really bad pain. My aunt said measles is even worse than that: she stayed in a darkened room for two weeks unable to even watch TV or read a book.
My mother remembers the polio outbreaks every summer. Grandma kept her from going to the swimming pool out of fear of the disease and she never learned to swim.
My great-grandmother was one of 10 siblings. 4 of them died as little children, probably from diphtheria.
I wish these parents would talk to us older people, and read up on history. These diseases are no joke!
8
For a doctor like Rand Paul to not be in the forefront for the vaccinations is malpractice in my opinion. States need to mandate vaccinations for any child admitted to the school system unless that child has a MEDICAL reason not to have it. When your freedom not to vaccinate imperils my sick child's life, it is no longer a right, it is a public health hazard.
6
Look up how the Pauls got their Board certs in opthalmology. It’s...entertaining.
2
@ExPatMX Rand Paul is a pretty interesting case. It is hard to believe that he really has no clue about vaccinations, although I see from his strange education history that he may well have missed that part. Attending medical school after not obtaining a bachelors degree seems strange. Can that still happen? He did a general surgery internship and then a residency in ophthalmology. I hate to see where this is going. Are Ben Carson and Rand Paul enough evidence that surgeons should be prohibited from opining on public health? I still feel that even a practicing ophthalmologist probably understands vaccination. That leads to the view that Paul's strong libertarianism overrides his medical knowledge. He wants a world in which it is OK to play music at any hour at any volume ("freedom"), to drive drunk and to refuse vaccination.
1
@Robert - and aren't both father and son part of that weird medical association that hates certifications (as well as having other oddball ideological opinions)?
The Senator did just get a big thank you on one of the autism conspiracy sites.
1
Perhaps the Gates Foundation, rather than focusing on eradicating Polio in countries like Pakistan, Nigeria, or Somalia - need to come here!
4
Not having vaccines burdens our health care system and our economy. It is wasteful, dangerous and un-American. Many other behaviors are detrimental to our economy but this one is plain tragic. Back when polio vaccines first were available, my husband knew a father who proudly announced that no one was going to stick a needle in his son. Then along came a polio outbreak in town. The father was now first in line with his son demanding the polio vaccine for his child.
4
Measles was officially eradicated in America in 2000.
But thanks to this anti-vax cult it's back.
These parents have unleashed an army of adolescent Typhoid Marys into their communities. How is this not endangering public health?
8
This Fool House Rock video is brilliant! Kudos to the creators.
3
Not such a strange phenomenon, people have been denying science for along time.
Just lump the anti-vaccers in with the flat earthers, the climate change deniers, religious fanatics and snake oil salesmen.
4
I personally know of two perons mentally impaired from measles - my husband's brother and the son of former neighbors. Both did grow into adults capable of decent employment and able to support themselves, but never outgrew the "slowness" caused by the disease.
5
When and how have Americans become so doubtful about truth and very receptive to propaganda? More importantly, do we lack the intelligence to know the difference? We are bombarded daily with much noise and disinformation, this may be tied to our Charlatan and Chief, the number one best liar in the world. Finally, all this disinformation is very dangerous to our welfare.
4
@Carol....Fox news?
2
Every prospective parent should have a mandatory viewing of the Frontline (PBS) production of "The Vaccine War". If there was ever a film that illuminated the benefits of vaccines and the non-science of the anti-vaxers, this is it. An excellent piece of work.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/vaccines/
4
Old enough to remember iron lungs crutches deafness blindness being very common. Do you want that for your kids?
10
You used to get polio shots. Then they developed a serum. If they did the same thing with MMR, this problem would be solved.
Nonsense. What happened was that the vaccination campaigns worked, eliminating any real risk of polio in this country.
But that is not true world-wide, largely because of this sort of nonsense.
3
@michjas Unfortunately, people who choose not to vaccinate generally refuse all vaccines- whether they are oral, nasal, or injectable. And polio vaccine is still given to children- the injectable type is used in the US. There is still polio present in pockets of the world.
3
The anti-vax crowd loves conspiracy theory. Therefore, the current push to counter their collective ignorance will be seen (by them) as a "desperate propaganda push by big pharma" or by the "deep state". Here is a hard learned lesson- if you engage with an anti-vaxer, ask, "Has someone you love been hurt by vaccines?" If they say "yes" abandon all hope of convincing them otherwise. Rational discussion is not going to be possible so better shift to sports or the weather or just walk away. We can hope that efforts to spread their misinformation will be reduced by internet platforms. Unfortunately, it may take many injured children for the majority to wake up to the facts. Are you listening, Darla Shine?
5
@Vern Castle So if they've had actual experience with vaccine damage then they are to be discounted? What? I've never heard such a backward argument in my life.
@Alex The trouble is they very likely DIDN'T have "actual experience" with "vaccine damage"; they did very likely confuse correlation with causation.
4
@Vern Castle I agree but would state it differently. If the antivaxer "believes" that he/she has observed vaccine damage ("he was vaccinated and four years later presented with autism") then there is no hope.
1
Simple solution: get all health insurers to refuse coverage for unvaccinated children.
10
There are worse illnesses than contacting the Measles; Malaria for instance is one that comes to mind. The former begins parading as a cold, to the flu, and then your fever increases, unable to breathe, you slowly suffocate to death.
It could be worse, where in the 18th century, leeches were applied to ailing children to bleed them, and Louis XV was saved by the Royal Governess, who seeing all his siblings die under the care of their doctors, took her young charge into her apartment, and barricaded their entrance. Late in life, the king was to remember that she had saved his life.
And here we are in America in the 21 Century where leeches are no longer used, but the fear of the side-effects of a vaccine in the era of technology is increasing.
It is a choice perhaps similar to the current outbreak of Ebola in the Democratic Republic of The Congo, spreading daily, where health care workers are being cast aside with mistrust and in their attempt to save families and villages.
Perhaps The New York Times could have a medical column, explaining the signs and symptoms of 'Measles' and the pros and cons for having children vaccinated.
Having seen victims of polio at an early age in the last century, while I did not like going to the doctor, there was no hesitation on my part in going to his office, and there was no need to give me treats afterwards.
Take your chances.
8
There is one word for these Anti-Vaxxers...Selfish. We had our daughter vaccinated early (just under 11 months) for measles due to upcoming travel. I remember a few years ago there was a notice for anyone who traveled through Newark airport during a certain amount of time to get checked out due to a confirmed measles cases traveling through the airport.
I am generally of the mindset of Senator Paul, however liberty is a balancing act, it isn't black and white. You do not have unfettered access to say what ever you want (i.e. Yell fire in a crowded room). The same goes for vaccines. The damage and risk to OTHER people's liberty is greater then any liberty gained by ignorantly avoiding vaccines. Thus in my view it would be justified if the government took a harder stand on this.
10
@Jeffrey
Agree except Anti-vaxxers : also arrogant. They will argue and argue in support of their "hesitancy" or "free choice" or whatever the word is of the moment. Their "choice" is based on the rest of society being sufficiently immunized so they can whine about their "rights". Once the level of protection drops enough that measles and whooping cough and pertussis reaches pre 1960 levels we will see who is first in line for the vaccines, my bet is it will be these arrogant anti-vaxxers.
If the State AGs and plaintiff’s bar sought to recoup damages incurred by the unvaccinated, that would put an end to the anti-vax movement rather quickly. But there isn’t the same amount of publicity or money to be made that there is in suing corporations “for the public good.” Too bad.
5
Easy for Senator Paul to fall back on his Libertarian beliefs. Unfortunately, and he of anyone should know, that measles can be deadly to some parts of the population. Namely people with cancer who have a compromised immune system and infants who have an undeveloped immune system and are too young for vaccinations.
We are not talking about children just developing a "childhood disease." We are talking about the reality of a disease that spreads so easily and can and does cause misery and death.
10
We should, as a society, simply not allow these children (and their parents) to participate in *any* public-funded activity, like school, until the kids are vaccinated. Period.
7
People die every day of cancer, diabetes and neuro vascular diseases (all preventable with a diet and good habits-and all "contagious" through bad examples and advertisement) and you guys go crazy for measles... We all got measles when I was young but we are still here, my mother had polio and took antibiotics. Meningitis: there are so many kinds and the vaccine is only for a couple.
Radical reactions to vaccinations is probably due to make them compulsory at all cost and pretending not to see the adverse reactions that they have, immediately and in the long run (which is not in the interest of anybody to prove...), I am a bit appalled by the persecutory comments... I propose to cancel insurance for those who smoke and weigh more that 115 pounds!
@Patrizia Filippi The many children who died from measles cannot, obviously, come on here to write comments to refute your suggestion that "we are still here."
You know, once I was in a motor vehicle accident and I survived! So should we stop all the worrying about seat belts, air bags, making roads safer, and encouraging safe driving since "I'm still here"? Of course not.
Further, if you live long enough, you will get cancer regardless of your lifestyle habits. (I will also point out that some cancers are preventable through vaccination.)
Vaccinations are extremely safe and are a miracle that has improved the quality of life for hundreds of millions around the world.
23
@Patrizia Filippi, You have obviously never been in the position that I was a little over four years ago: pregnant, and having just learned that I was not immune to measles, either because the vaccine I received as a child had worn off or was a dud. Because of people who choose not to vaccinate, I was put at daily risk, as I commuted by crowded subway, of contracting the disease and of my child developing some pretty nasty birth defects as a result. Thankfully this did not happen, but as someone who had previously had a more liberal attitude toward vaccination "choice", this experience shed a different light on the issue to me. I agree that people should be informed about possible side effects of vaccines as they are of all medications, but they should also be informed that (1) these effects are very rarely severe or lasting, (2) choosing not to vaccinate puts others, not only one's own child, at risk, and (3) many of the effects proclaimed by the anti-vaccination groups have absolutely no basis in science.
8
@Patrizia Filippi Seventy two deaths from measles in Europe last year. World-wide, over 100,000. Yes, you and I and others survived when we were kids and exposed. Let's protect younger ones now that we can.
4
The virus causing most hysteria during my childhood was polio. Parents and grandparents had stories of someone they knew who had been paralyzed or who had died as waves of the virus broke out over generations. I recall receiving my doses of polio vaccine on sugar cubes way back in the early 1960’s.
Some from my generation, myself included, thought of the “normal” childhood illnesses we all got - measles, mumps, chicken pox, rubella, were innocuous. Remember, though, the hysteria at the time was surrounding polio, and the fact the common childhood illnesses caused deaths and complications were essentially drowned out.
Sometimes Americans think the USA is the only country in the world, but these illnesses have caused unnecessary world-wide devastation. Small pox, for example, killed hundreds of millions world-wide in the 20th century alone. We in the US, and those among my generation, were fortunate to have been inoculated against small pox as children. The only way to eradicate such illnesses is a world-wide program of vaccinations.
Those who refuse to vaccinate themselves or their children put others at risk and increase the likelihood such illnesses will perpetuate.
6
Unlike the wall, this is a true national emergency - totally manufactured by a deadly combination of ignorance and arrogance. Just reading these articles about the outbreaks and the child who had tetanus makes my blood boil.
Your freedoms do not trump public safety. You should not have the right to expose innocent people to deadly contagions because you decide to believe bunk science and do not vaccinate your children. All non-medical exemptions should be taken away - and even those must face rigorous scrutiny.
The time has come for governments at all levels to protect the people and require vaccines for all eligible (not too young or immune compromised) citizens.
14
If there is one thing missing in this country it's common sense, because anyone with common sense knows that if you are sick you go to the doctor and not your lawyer.
Just this past week we saw something in the news about a woman who crossed a safety line to take a selfie with a jaguar and it ended with her being injured, where was the common sense in that and how many times have we seen where an accident was caused by someone while texting while driving, real common sense.
This country needs to enforce the vaccination laws nation wide in order to protect those that fail to use common sense.
That's why we have laws to begin with.
8
In my area we all had measles and mumps as children in the 60’s and, while it was uncomfortable, no one was dangerously ill. The emotion around these measles cases amounts to hysteria. Parents facing the increasing odds of having children with autism or Downs Syndrome, however, have every right to be hysterical. We need to get to the bottom of this.
2
@AJG, anecdotal experiences do not trump scientific fast and public health numbers. Measles can kill people, mostly children under 5 years old, and it a devastating illness. There are reasons scientists worked for decades to create a vaccine to stop its deadly spread. Please do research from fact-based, public health sources and don't rely only on your personal experience.
9
@AJG There is now credible scientific evidence that vaccination gives or exposes children to Down's Syndrome or Autism. Almost all the the experts" on the connection have little or no medical training. In our area their a a lot of anti-vaxxers who claim that mercury compounds are used as preservatives in the shots. They are wrong mercury compounds have no been used as preservatives in about 30 years. Its all purposeful ignorance.
4
@AJG
Increasing odds of Down syndrome? I'm not seeing how vaccination is linked to Down syndrome, which is the result of having a third copy of chromosome 21 (instead of 2). A child with Down syndrome has the extra chromosome from his/her start as an embryo - the third chromosome can't/doesn't spontaneously appear in all of his/her cells after being given a vaccination. If this is your understanding of the biology, then you've been misinformed.
7
It has always been a lot of ignorance and misinformation related to vaccines, but in the third world it has also been lack of access and harassment (including killing) of female health workers. Where is the UN in all this? Why hasn't been a world outcry denouncing the lack of local institutions in vaccination campaigns? UNICEF should have been in the forefront of mobilization, however, as usual, there is a total disconnect between real people's need and actual delivery. Shame on us all!
@Ana Klenicki, there is actually A LOT being done by UN agencies, including UNICEF and WHO, along with global health organizations such as Gavi, the CDC's international work, etc. And there are advocacy campaigns fighting for the exact thing you are talking about -- that is, giving all of the world's children access to lifesaving vaccines.
4
This editorial is not quite complete. It should include the warnings on the vaccine packages - vaccines are NOT risk-free.
@Maurice Gatien Nothing is risk-free. Stop looking for excuses.
5
@Maurice Gatien Neither is living.
4
@Maurice Gatien Please name one thing in this world that is risk free.
3
Family physician here.
1. Rand Paul is an ophthalmologist. More importantly, he is a nut. Listening to him on vaccines is like letting me pop your cataract out while wearing a beanie with a propeller. Don't do it.
2. "As health care workers struggle to persuade wary parents that vaccine are safe....
We don't struggle as much as you might think. Some docs just flat-out fire these patients. I don't, but I don't spend a lot of time on persuasion. We have them sign the vaccine refusal form and then move on. There's a doctor shortage on, and we are busy and not inclined to engage in futile acts.
Vaccine education is a public health issue, not a medical one. Of course things turn medical real fast once the Koplik's spots appear.
30
@vbering Abroad, there are federally vaccination campaigns. There are ad campaigns (I still remember the jingle for the polio vaccine), there are hotlines for information, schools send information packages to parents. I agree. This is a public health crisis, exacerbated by a laissez-faire mentality that has no place in science.
6
I never really understand one aspect about this story: If my child is vaccinated, then he cannot get measles in the event of an outbreak? Or can he? That is never well explained in the reporting.
2
@Pat According to the CDC, the effectiveness of two doses is 97%: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/vaccination.html. The fact that it's not perfect and that some people can't get the vaccine (such as immuno-compromised people) reinforces the need for "herd immunity" https://www.vaccines.gov/basics/work/protection/index.html
4
The vaccine does not cause antibody protection in every single person that gets it. I have read it is 97-98% effective at causing an immune response. However, if 100 people get the vaccine, the rate of effectiveness of the vaccine means that 97 of the group will be immune to measles, 3 will receive the vaccine but not be immune.
If someone with measles exposes people in this group, odds are 97% the only ones exposed will be immune. They will not get the measles, therefore the three who aren’t immune are much less likely to get the measles because it won’t spread from person to person in the group.
The vulnerable people of the group are protected from getting the measles because they are surrounded by people who cannot get it and spread it. That is what is known as herd immunity.
4
@Pat
There are recent data about this: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6742a4.htm ("Measles Outbreak in a Highly Vaccinated Population"). From that report:
"...consistent with the lower risk for transmission reported in other cases of measles in vaccinated persons, possibly owing to their milder symptoms, including lack of or reduced cough. In this outbreak, most contacts being fully vaccinated probably contributed to rapid containment."
Hence even when there is transmission to previously vaccinated persons (which occasionally happens), the risks are less.
2
Ignorance, lack of curiosity and the growing willingness to accept supposedly easy and lazy answers are at the root of many of our today’s self-inflicted problems. What is it that makes so many people to apparently abandon their most noble faculty - the power to reason, the ability to use knowledge & facts - and to act against their own good?? Brexit, Trump, climate change denial, vaccination skepticism- in my view, all of these issues show similar symptoms. It looks to me like the easy proliferation of lies and conspiracy theories via the internet and social media is one of our biggest challenges of the present and the coming decade.
9
Nowadays its all about me and mine. People have lost any sense that they have an obligation to society, or even the community they live in. That is the core problem.
18
Also in light of the viral (if you will excuse the pun) story about the boy who didn't have a tetanus shot and was deathly ill with exorbitant hospital costs ....
If the anti-vaxxers are that dug in, let them stay dug in, but if their child gets sick from a disease for which there is a vaccine that against medical advice they refused to have administered then they should be responsible for ALL of the bills, medical and otherwise, that follow.
12
WHY BOTHER?
When we have failed to educate the parents why try any further to continue the effort?
2
I often wonder why some people just go out of their way looking for trouble, this is just such a case. If people want to express their freedom by not vaccinating their children I guess that's their right however they should not be allowed to endanger the rest of us so keep your children home.
10
Yet another example of how our elected leaders are failing us.
8
I have an Asperger's grandchild from one daughter and the other daughter is a physician. And both daughters who are highly educated believe the anti-vax movement is crazy and very dangerous for children. As you know, this originated with a fabricated study, and you would think an educated person would be laughing out loud at this. Yet, hysterical people blindly support it putting all of us at risk. The people I know who are against vaccines either don't have children themselves and are typically paranoid, conspiracy-minded folks. We need legislation that disallows any unvaccinated child (except for valid medical reasons) into any school or daycare setting. And I would never frequent a doctor who treated these children and who may sit in the waiting room. Unfortunately for the poor kids, many of them are home schooled.
19
One MD author of the supposedly " fabricated" study sued for libel and won. In other words, the claims made against the study could not be proven. As I recall, the editor of the BMJ from which the study was withdrawn had ties to the vaccine industry. This would certainly not be surprising in light of the New York Times' excellent reporting on the incestuous relationship between medical journals and pharmaceutical companies.
1
A well targeted and public funded immunisation programme combined with the social awareness campaign and where possible an involvement of the paedriticians could help prevent the comeback of the once eradicated measles disease.
6
Getting a vaccine-hesitant parent to immunize their children is like teaching a fly about the perils of flyswatters. Just before they understand, they can pay a dreadful price.
Having had polio myself (1952), a sister who was second in the US to have heart surgery after intrauterine rubella (1945) and a grandfather dead of influenza (1919), I am first in line for immunization. Seeing the victims of unavailable or undesired vaccination in my medical training only cemented my already strong beliefs. One child went from unquestioned health to near death in less than 8 hours from pneumococcal meningitis; another sat struggling for breath and drooling as HIB tried to kill her. Both are now largely preventable because of vaccines.
Mothers and fathers: don’t let your children be the unknowing flies in a world full of flyswatters.
27
@Douglas McNeill While sharing your experiences is valid, the flyswatter comments are demeaning.
When licensed healthcare professionals, such as Rand Paul, advocate against the minimum standards of care and practice within the affiliated profession, they should have their licenses revoked on the basis of public health malpractice.
The US should be shoveling funds into public health as it's the foundation for all healthcare across all settings.
17
I'm a pediatrician, as passionate about full immunizations as anyone. I worry about school-exclusion policies which might punish homeless and near-homeless children. Proper documentation of already-received immunizations is often the first casualty of near-homelessness and every pediatrician has stories of likely repeating unnecessary immunizations on children who have lost records. Homeless and near-homeless children already miss school days at higher rates for a multitude of reasons. Well-intentioned school immunization policies should not add to their burden. Before we exclude kids from school, we have to find a way to distinguish between children who are likely immunized and those who are clearly not (by choice, or by special circumstance such as immigration, refuge or international adoption).
7
@Douglas-One step toward minimizing the number of unidentifable individuals per 100,000 population is to do as is done in Sweden.
Every baby born in Sweden gets a personnummer (PN) at birth with the first 6 digits being the date of birth. This and the very high quality of Swedish databases makes it possible for Swedish medical researchers to certain kinds of studies much more difficult in other countries.
I of course do not know if homeless individuals in Sweden would remember their personnummer (PN). The percentage of homeless in Sweden is certainly lower than in the US.
Asylum seekers do not get a PN until they are given a residence permit, so during the peak recent years when Sweden took in the greatest number of asylum seekers per 100,000 population of any country -beginning in 2015 - there were many people who did not have PNs.
I mention this in part because once a person has that PN that person is registered as voter for life and can vote on reaching the appropriate age.
I do not see why that could not be done in the country of my birth.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
1
@Douglas Have “immunization days” at school, free for all attending students. You can show proof of vaccination and be exempted. Then vaccinations are part of the student records, forever.
4
Talking about unnamed disabilities caused by measles is far too general. Be specific here and forget about healthcare dollars.
Not only does the child endure two painful weeks in bed but it must be in a darkened room to prevent damage to the eye, deafness, intellectual impaired. According to the CDC website-- time for more research -- 2 out of a thousand die and two out of thousand develop a disability.
The public needs to know about the potential consequences . Time for a few public service advertisements on that topic and on HIV transmission??!! (We have all kinds of drug company ads on the telly all the time anyway. One public service ad per ten selling a drug or hospital system.
Where are the adults?? and someone who really does care?
12
This article is, of course, correct, but it's using reason to combat a belief that has nothing to do with reason. Anti-vaxxers do not have the "liberty" to endanger others any more than they have the "liberty" to drive drunk and run red lights.
The parents of the child with $800,000 of medical bills should be handed the bill, and charged with child endangerment. Rand Paul should be ashamed of himself, and charged with malpractice.
18
My mother had polio at age 15, in 1951. She said that she spent most of her time in the hospital reading to a boy with polio who was in an iron-lung, and who subsequently died.
To our family, the name Jonas Salk evoked awe and gratitude. As soon as vaccines became available, my mother had all 4 kids lined up to be the first to receive them. I've done the same with my kids, and am so grateful to scientists that both my son and daughter are now also vaccinated against HPV, the virus that causes many cervical and genital cancers.
20
@Eddie
And I can't imagine not giving the varicella vaccine. As a kid, I rode out measles, and mumps, and chicken pox, before vaccines were available, But kids who had chicken pox can get shingles decades later, and shingles as an adult was ten times the misery of all my childhood diseases combined. I assume the parents who decline vaccinations for their kids love their kids. If they love those children, they would never subject them to the suffering that is shingles.
2
Finally, mandate that all students in public and private schools in the United States be vaccinated either in school or by a doctor. This includes prevention for both contagious diseases as well as tetanus vaccinations. If parents choose not to comply, then they can home-school.
The NYT article of 3/10/19 noting the $800,000 hospitalization bill for a child not immunized for tetanus was mind-boggling. Without question that bill will be paid by responsible parents either through increased health insurance premiums or through Medicaid payments. (The parents should be arrested for reckless endangerment of their child's health.)
9
Those who refuse to vaccinate, for whatever reason, should pay sufficiently higher rates for medical insurance to cover the costs of their negligence.
22
Although I am a sceptic of the motives of the pharmaceutical industry, I am not anti-vaccine. If you take the time to look over the concerns expressed by those who are anti-vaccine their biggest fear is the MMR. If measles if the major public health issue, then we should offer a measles-only vaccine. It has been seen as safe for many decades without all the hoopla. If this is about public health, offer a vaccine that will create more compliance. Labeling these parents as paranoid conspiracy nuts, or threatening them with expelling their children from school or accusing them of child abuse does not solve the public health issue and simple treats more resistance. Offer something more acceptable to these skeptics and it will love the two sides closer together. Public health is about the Public. Everyone has to be on board and all sides need to be respected.
4
Are YOU willing to pay for the production of such vaccines? For the lower compliance rates that result from adding to the number of office visits?
And do you really think that any amount of accommodation—any at all—who satisfy these people?
Please. They’d do what they did when thimerosol was taken out of kids’ shots: either deny that it was, or start yelling, “SEE! told you it was dangerous! If it wasn’t DANGEROUS, why’d they change it!!”
3
Right now measles has the spotlight, but it is not the only disease that is contagious and cause horrific, life changing consequences.
Rubella, the “R” of MMR, can cause miscarriage in pregnant women, or blindness, deafness or mental deficiencies in babies that are born to infected mothers. Pregnant women are unable to receive the vaccine.
The other “M” in MMR, mumps, causes severe inflammation of the salivary glands. Complications can cause encephalitis needing hospitalization, deafness and infertility due to inflammation of the testicles and ovaries. I had Mumps as a kid, it’s no fun.
The reason MMR is combined is it is one shot that immunized for 3 diseases, instead of 3 shots.
1
@Mitch Chalek if one part of the public is actively endangering the rest of the herd, we do not have to respect them.
1
To me, it is surprising that people can totally accept science (cell phones and high tech works) and totally reject science (vaccines don't work), all in the same breath.
If you understand the scientific process, the development of cell phones and vaccines both must be accepted. Both are the result of millions of hours of detailed and conscientious work. Both have been tried and tested by the peer review system and by demonstration of a completed product, with proven efficacy.
Are either cell phones or vaccines 100% perfect - of course not. But the science that has led to these pinnacles of human achievement is undeniable.
10
The Anti-vax crowd need to place themselves back in time when small pox and polio and measles etc. were killing or crippling millions of people. Wanting to start that all over again seems like a really bad idea. People used to line up begging for the new polio vaccine.
All the anti-vax “arguments” are proof that we are still not a STEM based society. The fact that they have changed position constantly to vilify vaccines independent of evidence is paramount….example: thimerosal was a big deal in the anti-vax crowd list referenced as causing autism, but has been removed from routine vaccines with autism diagnoses unaffected.
The “too many too soon” meme replaced thimerosal. However, vaccines really don’t clobber the immune systems much at all. (and has been systematically reduced over time as knowledge has been gained.) It is like adding a branch to a tree. The immune system response from normal environmental “bugs” is much more intense than vaccines.
There are other fallacious examples that keep popping up. The science marches on while society never catches up. (I get every cootie shot available to keep the bugs at bay.)
8
@glennmr
Family doc here. You seem to be science-based, as am I.
It would be instructive to have science-based folks follow one of us around in the clinic for a day or two. You will see human irrationality in all its glorious manifestations and will forever despair of having a "STEM-based" world. Crazy is just the way people are.
I have been in the game 30 years and have noted no tendency at all towards greater rationality in my patients. Indeed, because misinformation is now easier to get through the internet, things might be getting worse.
5
@vbering
I assume you have to deal with "homeopathy" and other such nonsense. I go to the science based medicine website for info on medicine as I am in the engineering range of things.
I do agree that the the internet has lead to dumbing down of society in many ways.
"Some 92 percent of vaccine-eligible people in the United States have been inoculated against measles ..."
Since the expression "herd immunity" is only a metaphor that was borrowed from veterinary medicine (which only applies it to penned and non-circulating animals), many people would consider 92% to be a clear case of herd immunity's already existing among humans.
3
@Sequel
The rate of immunization required to get herd immunity is variable and depends on the community and the disease. There is a considerable public health literature on this topic, easily accessed online.
4
@Sequel Many people would be wrong. Some diseases, including measles, require immunity of at a minimum of 93% and at least 95%, thus 92% falls short. This isn't a matter of what what many people think but a clear threshold determined by science. Your feelings don't matter.
(https://www.who.int/immunization/sage/meetings/2017/october/2._target_immunity_levels_FUNK.pdf)
Additionally, even if all diseases did achieve herd immunity at 92% then it stands to reason that immunity levels falling below that would increase the likelihood of outbreaks, such as the measles outbreak currently occurring in Brooklyn, Rockland County, NY and Oregon.
3
@Sequel Ask an epidemiologist. Rely on expert data to make this sort of assertion. I have seen much higher numbers mentioned by specialists in the field.
2
The board neglects to mention that there is a secondary measles virus from the measles vaccine which causes measles separate from the wild measles virus.
The Journal of Clinical Microbiology describes a new technology developed "to rapidly distinguish between measles cases and vaccine reactions to avoid unnecessary outbreak response measures such as case isolation and contact investigations." the paper states.
"During the measles outbreak in California in 2015, a large number of suspected cases occurred in recent vaccines. Of the 194 measles virus sequences obtained in the US in 2015, 73 were identified as vaccine sequences."
So, 38% were from the measles vaccine and not wild measles virus.
4
@lechrist I think the denominators are different in vaccine rashes and epidemic cases. Many more people in the US were vaccinated than were exposed to actual measles. So 73 is a much smaller proportion. You seem to be citing https://jcm.asm.org/content/55/3/735#ref-3. Which cites an unpublished number by “R.C.Nall.”
4
Suggesting that "all social media platforms should consider having scientists vet vaccine content for accuracy", and internet companies to partner with the government to "more quickly dismantle the anti-vaccine movement" seems very close to a call for censorship.
If the anti-vaccine movement is incorrect, then the best approach is to spread the word and prove vaccines are absolutely safe - or at least worth the risks.
4
@Fakkir
The safety and efficacy of vaccines has been proven. Over and over and over again. Much like climate change, it is established science. However, much like climate change, some people simply don't want to believe it and will ignore a vast chorus of educated voices in favor of this one article they saw linked on Facebook that told them what they wanted to hear.
16
@Fakkir You are right. That would be censorship. However, we all have the right and responsibility to censor our own speech. I draw the line between people and publishers’ right to choose what they say or publish, and a “common carrier”, like the phone company, highway or internet service provider, which uses exclusive access to the public space between our private property to establish the communication grid. The NYT decides whether to publish our comments, but the ISP should be “neutral.”
There was a time not long ago when parents had total authority over decisions that affected their children. As we have learned how many serious diseases spread we have learned to put some limitations on that parental power. Most states to protect kinds, refuse to allow parents to send their unvaccinated children to school. All states will prosecute an abusive parent or even rescind their parental rights. Because these diseases can lead to permanent harm to children, there should be no religious or moral exemption from having one's child immunized. A child should not have to wait until he/she is 18 for immunization because of a mindlessly reflexive homage to outmoded notions of parental personal freedom.
11
Disappointed that the editorial does not discuss the problem of easy exemption from mandatory school age vaccination in 17 States including Washington and Oregon, which both allow a "philosophical" exemption … the main public policy goal which requires no tax dollars is to eliminate the religious and philosophical exemption from vaccination requirements for kids in schools …
8
I believe that part of the problem with anti-vaxxers is the SUCCESS of vaccinations. They have not suffered from or seen people who have suffered from some of the diseases that have been eradicated. If they had seen pictures, like I did of kids in iron lungs or friends who lost the use of a leg from polio or spent a week in a darkened room while your parents hovered over you with worried looks on their faces, they might finally understand why vaccinations are so important. Ironic, isn’t it? And I am willing to bet that 99% of the anti-vaxxers were vaccinated!
23
The Editorial Board writes, "several prominent social media platforms have pledged to block anti-vaccine propaganda and vaccine misinformation from their sites."
This raises the troubling question about which side to accept with some views being suppressed.
Consider the analogy of a criminal trial where you are a fair-minded juror. If the accused is prevented from presenting exculpatory evidence or arguments by the court, the best you can do is doubt. If the judge told you that the arguments he is suppressing are "propaganda" and "misinformation," that leaves you in the dark about guilt or innocence of the accused.
If, as the Editorial Board seems to believe, someone declines immunization is persuaded by "anti-vaccine propaganda and vaccine misinformation", aren't these arguments so easy to refute?
This article should make us wonder what other "propaganda" and "misinformation" is being suppressed from us?
Is it possible that free discussion in an open internet is better than a closed one?
In the battle of ideas, I prefer a level playing field.
8
@Lucia Snow,
It is not battle of ideas, it is ideas vs facts. It will never be a level playing field, as one side has ideas that have been proven false, yet they cling to it as proven "science", citing a friend of a friend is not a proof, vs. the other side has 99% of scientists/doctors with actual data.
16
@Lucia Snow Not all ideas are equal nor should they be given equal weight. The pro-diseasers (thats what they are, no more of this "anti-vaxx" euphemisms) arguments are easy to refute on rational fact-based level. Unfortunately, the individuals who spout them are irrational in the first place or else they would long ago have accepted the balance of evidence against their conspiracy theories. If the entire medical and scientific establishment worldwide despite difference in government and health system, accepts and supports facts, they should be given precedence over any mommy bloggers feelings. No media company (social or traditional) should be required to give the WHO and a mother with a degree in english lit an equal platform and certainly not at the expense of lives.
6
@Lucia Snow I agree about the internet, but social media platforms are more like hosted parties. They facilitate conversations among registered guests in a private and protected space. The hosts should have some freedom to limit ads, trolls, public threats, spies, etc. and, as elements of the free press, should be free from government control, too.
1
First important step: Reauthorize the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act and examine state-by-state response to public health emergencies. Where the response is inadequate as shown by unacceptable vaccination rate or disease incindence, develop appropriate actions.
Fund the C.D.C. at the level that the nation's Public Health requires. And fund programs that can educate the public about the monetary costs to families and the health-care system of not vaccinating.
And here in the Times and elsewhere give at least as much attention to the entire concept and importance of Public Health as is given to exciting attention-grabbing but expensive genome-study based interventions.
That last requires careful analysis of medical ethics issues that perhaps are faced more directly in Universal Health Care countries, perhaps not.
The above partly reflects my recent experience translating a manuscript from Swedish to English that points to the importance of a finding in an in-press European Urology article that prostate-cancer screening is a now fully justifiable public-health measure.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
12
Maybe health insurance payouts should be contingent upon being vaccinated.
20
@Steve
Or offer an insurance discount to people or families who have proof of having had certain vaccinations.
2
Some years back at a film festival, I saw a movie about autism and one parent of an adopted child from Russia talked about the wonderful child she adopted that changed to an autistic child. I knew the doctor who started the scare about the triple measles, mumps, rubella vaccine, was in it for the money and had faked his data. The audience didn't and the poor mother with the autistic child was a powerful voice supported by many in the audience. They talked about the growth of autism, not recognizing that a spectrum of Aspergers folks had been identified, so the numbers had grown, but the spectrum was much wider than what was known before. I have a grandson on the spectrum who is doing well with early intervention. His mother knew from birth that something was wrong based on how he reacted to her running her hand up his spine. She has three other children and her guess was correct and the state where she lives funded interventions to help the boy socialize. He goes to a regular school and does well. Another relative is a high performing person on the spectrum with a photographic memory and now the knowledge that he has autism and yet for him it can be a blessing, as he a genius. People don't choose autism, but it is better than losing a child to complications from preventable diseases. Sometimes, it's a true gift.
11
@Jim....Anyone who thinks autism is related vaccinations needs to explain why boys are diagnosed with autism at a rate more than four times that for girls.
4
I am a doctor and my father was a pediatrician (which I always reminded him was almost like being a doctor). My four children have had every vaccine available. When my youngest son joined the Navy I was amazed that he got several more vaccines that we had not given him already. I thought that was great.
In my opinion, not vaccinating children is criminally negligent and should be grounds for loss of custody.
41
@Jon Tolins
I get what I think is your "in joke "but too many people do not understand what you meant by saying being a pediatrician almost like being a doctor....as a pediatric oncologist that obnoxious line really infuriates me. maybe some of the idiot anti-vaxxers think the way you do about pediatricians and thus do not heed them.
1
Those like Rand Paul who bleat that “liberty” is infringed if the government demands anything of its citizens are ridiculously wrong and dangerous. Traffic laws that require me to stop at red lights or not to go 100 mph through neighborhoods infringe my “liberty.” Requiring my surgeon to be licensed to practice medicine infringes his “liberty” to do whatever he wants, as well my “liberty” to go to some quack, if I want to. Paying taxes infringes my “liberty.” As Oliver Wendell Holmes stated, “taxes are the price we pay for civilization.” Taxes and other requirements of a civilized society, like regulations and laws for the common good, all help create a civilized society in which people can flourish, instead of existing in a sort of zero-sum survival game.
48
@J. ... Rand Paul does not understand liberty! It is the right of a person to conduct his life as he sees fit, so long as his behavior does not impinge on the rights of others, or on the powers necessarily reserved to the public as represented by the government.
I choose to have my children free of measles and other communicable diseases for which an effective vaccine exists. My rights are violated by any unvaccinated person who puts me or my children at risk.
6
@J.
Great comment. These wanting parents are the reason the, “State,” has to insure that children are immunized. There’s a lot of people to blame. All those that perpetuate the lies of vaccinations. Who would have thought that, “science,” would be so denigrated. These diseases make people suffer and die. I remember lining up to get the polio vaccine, and you certly didn’t hear people complain about not getting polio.
One more thing, everyone get the Shingles vaccine. I got Shingles, a very bad case, (several years ago), and was completely incapacitated for three months where I could barely move. I had to lie still on my back. A bead of water, rolling over the rash was like someone taking a can-opener scraping my skin. Finally it left me, in two short days, like medieval curse left my body. Get the vaccine.
3
@Prant I'd love to get the shingles vaccine, but was refused twice b/c I'm under 65. I've known people in their 30s who've gotten shingles, though.
1
Anti-Vaxxers : a nearly perfect example of Darwin, in action. Unfortunately, their Children AND everyone else must suffer the consequences. This is child neglect, at the least. Child abuse, in my educated, experienced opinion.
26
Failure to vaccinate your children is negligence. Unvaccinated children should be excluded from school, air travel and much more. Your unvaccinated kid can make my immune compromised kid sick and that just does not cut it!
33
The same 'safety-first' parents that feed only organic food to their kids and make them wear a bike helmet before leaving the driveway insist -- insist! -- those same beloved children be utterly, nakedly vulnerable to terrible disease. While their cutey-pie 8 year old's skin and nasal passages are an open invitation to (invisible) bacteria, germs, viruses, or pathogens, they furiously defend their right to put them in the path of a deadly, moving train. Such principled fortitude! Diptheria. Polio. Small-pox. Scarlet Fever. Tetanus. Measles. HPV.
Better dead than polluted by vaccinations? Something has gone seriously awry with American brains.
36
@Rabble If only the thousands of germs in our environment, and in our bodies were visible. Bottled water, preservative-free food, home-schooling and vaccine refusal may all be attempts to protect yourself through personal purity.
Give me liberty or give me death.
So your child can get polio and measles, and risk giving it to other children as well?
What kind of a medical doctor would say that?
22
Just my two cents...
As an RN, mother and grandmother I can see for myself that the MMR does confer immunity to those that receive it. In other words, is does what it is intended to do, prevent measles, rubella and mumps infections.
I think that part of the resistance to taking vaccines these days comes from the relentless push for the flu vaccine. The effectiveness of the vaccine does not seem to justify the mandate and I think compromises the vaccine program in general.
8
@Joan Greenberg
As someone with many science degrees I never thought of that way. I do believe you may have hit on a reason for this pushback. Thank you.
However I would not agree about the mumps, at colleges where the MMR has been required there have been many outbreaks.
@Joan Greenberg. Your argument about the relentless push each year for flu vaccination (it makes a lot of people ill, it doesn't prevent flu, only minimizes hospital visits) makes sense.
One question -- if I have my child vaccinated and the child goes to a school where some parents have refused vac and their child gets sick, as long as mine is protected, how does that hurt my child? It seems to me that only the unvaccinated are in danger, individually and collectively. D
1
@Jim vaccines work very well, but they are not perfect. A small percentage of vaccinated children will still be susceptible to a disease and can still be infected by unvaccinated children. In addition, any kids who are unvaccinated for a legitimate reason
(too young, certain medical conditions) or who are immunocompromised will be susceptible to the infections carried by kids whose parents won't vaccinate them.
17
None of the suggestions will get rid of the anti-vaccination movement that is at the core of recent outbreaks. How about we make it a law? This is a prime example where the rights of the many (health) outweigh the rights of an individual (to decide not to vaccinate their kid). It makes no sense to try to solve it any other way.
23
@Brian Will States decide what exemptions are permitted. (VA allows religious exemptions). Anti-vaccination groups are strong lobbyists. Concerned citizens need to make their voices heard as well.
5
There is also legislative action needed- eliminating non-medical exemptions from vaccines, and providing for more tracking of vaccine exemptions to provide public health agencies with the data they need to control outbreaks, and let parents know which schools are safe for their children to attend.
Here in Texas, where parents can get an exemption from vaccinating their children for "reasons of conscience" there have already been 10 confirmed cases of measles in 2019. In the Texas legislature, a bill has been introduced to provide for better data tracking non-medical vaccine exemptions to both aid public health agencies in fighting outbreaks , and to provide parents with information on exemption rates by schools.
One thing is sure, the anti-vax lobby will not be silent on this issue. They are advocating for even laxer vaccine requirements, and less data collection, and they donate to political campaigns. Already here in Texas, in the midst of a measles outbreak, a state legislature who has gotten campaign contributions from an anti-vax group has filed a bill to eliminate data collection on vaccine exemptions, and make it even easier to get a non-medical exemption.
Parents have a right to know which schools are safe for their children to attend. We all need to pay close attention to what is going on in our state legislatures, and let them hear our voices.
28
@Edie Clark Exactly. We need to be as vocal (or more so). We cannot blame the anti-vaccination groups if we remain silent and don't contact our legislators. Simply venting on social media is not enough.
5
Vaccines are a wonderful accomplishment of humanity! But do not trust a stupid cartoon for confirmation of science!!
As is the case with most issues, the truth is far more complicated than meets they eye. As Lodestar indicates, the entertaining but smarmy and questionable piece of cartoonery is not appropriate at all, given these times, with an issue of this emotional weight.
28 years ago we chose to stop routine vaccinations* due to several factors - the first being a 104+ fever in our 1 month old son after "doing what mainstream was supposed to do." We consulted with my wife's uncle who was a practicing physician in the UK at the time and were given a lot of reasons to stop. Most related to the AMA's bad execution of their science at the time: too early, too frequent, doses too large.
Since then, the AMA's science and execution has changed. Was it in response to educated folks like us? I doubt it but, they have changed. We were never concerned about Autism though. And we surely did Tenanus vaccination when the kids were older, and now at 26 and 28, not only do they receive most vaccinations (not flu), but have very healthy immune systems.
The Times' cartoon also focuses on the 50/50 thing with the guy on the train. 50/50? Really?
So...here we are with our kids about to have kids and we are in consultation with them. This piece does far more harm than good in terms of helping us guide them. Why did we abstain and now advocate for most vaccines?
Take the time to learn.
4
If your kids did not get vaccinated, they are a danger to the rest of us.
1
@Robert. If you read carefully you would know that they have been vaccinated now.
You should also know that you are still a danger to the rest of us Robert - even if you have been vaccinated.
We don't permit parents to starve their children or otherwise harm them through neglect. Why are vaccinations treated differently? A five-year old can't decide whether he or she should be vaccinated and parents who deny their children measles and other standard vaccinations are committing child abuse. The issue is different for adults who chose not to be vaccinated, whether against the flu or otherwise.
26
In the late 1950's, a cousin of mine died from encephalitis, which was a direct result of his bout with measles. The MMR vaccine, which wasn't available at that time, would undoubtedly have saved his life. That is my cautionary message to any parent who believes vaccines are a bad thing. Do not play Russian roulette with your precious child's life.
42
Parents whose children (like the boy in Oregon who recently survived a bout of tetanus) become dangerously ill as a result of being denied the basic medical care of vaccination must be prosecuted for child neglect or abuse. And for the sake of public safety, unvaccinated children should not be allowed to attend public schools or to participate on teams or clubs. It sounds draconian, but this is the consequence of their parents' faulty decision-making, and if there are consequences, maybe the tide can be turned.
53
@A.K.G. Except that they would literally not be allowed to walk out of their own home. Measles is an air borne disease. One cough near you is enough to spread the disease to anyone who doesn't have immunity. Just make it mandatory. (With the exception for those very few children who are truly medically unable to vaccinate and have proof from a real doctor that the condition warrants it.)
Please please please everyone get your children vaccinated against this horrible disease. I am now 73 and was very ill with measles when I was around 7. I was out of school for at least 2 weeks and lived in a darkened room for most of that time because the doctor (who came to the house) was worried that it would affect my eyesight. It didn’t. It affected my hearing. I am completely deaf in my right ear. My audio nerve was destroyed by measles. Thankfully, my hearing in my left ear was unaffected. It would take more words than I am allowed here to explain how this has affected my life. I am constantly afraid now of losing my hearing in my left ear. This is not a harmless and inconvenient disease. It could affect your children in ways you cannot imagine, and all of it is preventable. Don’t do this to your kids.
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@Painter Girl
Yep, remember that vividly. I got the measles the very first year the vaccine became available. Missed it by a hair's breadth.
I wish I had avoided that painful experience.
Get your kids vaccinated, people!!
13
It happened to me too. I wear hearing aids in both ears which helps. Why anyone would put their child at risk is beyond me.
17
Growing up, I had a friend whose older sister, at age three, contracted measles along with a couple of other contagious diseases all at the same time. She was left severely brain damaged and died in her teens. Younger Americans haven’t seen the damage these diseases cause.
11
As a physician and militant vaccination supporter I am hesitating to even write this comment, due to concern that it might provide fodder for anti-vaxxers, if taken out of context and interpreted in an undifferentiated, uncritical manner.
However, there are diseases where the likelihood of contracting is so low and the potential side effects of vaccination are serious enough that vaccination is considered contraindicated.
Smallpox today is one of those, because it is considered eradicated. I was still fully inoculated against smallpox and, frankly, would love to take a booster shot, because you never know what the Russians might be sending over next, if their misinformation campaigns no longer work.
On the other hand, every year I am on the fence about getting a flu shot, because every time I had one over the last dozen years or so, I would come down with fever, malaise, sniffles, typical flu symptoms, within a week. I seem to have developed a hyperreaction to the flu vaccine that gives me worse symptoms than the flu itself. In contrast, in the years when I declined the flu vaccine I did not get sick.
This approach may be somewhat defensible in the case of the flu where the vaccine provides imperfect protection anyway (and the fact that I am no longer seeing patients!!), but definitely not for measles, polio and the likes.
On a side note, I wanted to get a polio booster at my last annual and was denied it : Not required...
I have nagging doubts about that.
7
@Kara Ben Nemsi While I sympathize with your reaction to the flu vaccine, just as I did when my children developed their immune responses to their routine vaccines, the real question would be, do you believe anyone else contracted the flu from you while you were feeling the effects of the vaccine. i developed a terrible hard spot on my arm from my tetanus shot (a mild case of tetany) but I didn't fear being contagious. While our motiviation may be simply to avoid contracting the disease personally, we should alos keep in mind the good of the community.
6
@Hla3452
"...do you believe anyone else contracted the flu from you while you were feeling the effects of the vaccine."
Sorry, I don't understand. I thought I made it clear that I seem to be sensitive to that particular vaccine and I am apparently developing a hyperimmune reaction to it. That does not mean that I actually HAVE the flu when I am suffering that reaction. So, nobody else is being affected by this. Besides, I am usually feeling so miserable when that happens that I stay home anyway.
2
@Kara Ben Nemsi....Viruses cannot persist outside a living host. They can only be spread from one infected person to another. When people decline to be vaccinated they think their decision is just about them. It is not. In order for a virus infection to exist and spread (measles, polio, influenza) there has to be at least a critical minimum cohort of susceptible carriers within the population. When the number of susceptible people falls below that number the virus can no longer be transmitted and the infection disappears. On average, 30,000 Americans will die from influenza every flu season. If everyone were vaccinated the strain of influenza that winter could not spread and the death rate would be near zero. Or put another way, you can't catch the flu (measles, polio, etc) unless there are enough unvaccinated people in the population to allow it to spread.
5
It's very simple. Those parents who are uninformed and for whatever reason elect not to have their children vaccinated must home school them and not permit them to socialize with others. Cheers to that young man, who, when he turned 18 defied his parents and started getting his vaccines.
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@Sari
I agree with the thrust of your comment, but I take some issue with your characterization of the anti-vaxxers as “uninformed.”
These people receive plenty of information, and they know what the norms & standards are for school children. The problem is that they focus on the misinformation they receive that frightens them or confirms their prejudices.
It’s a hysterical reaction, imo, but there’s a lot of hysteria all around us these days.
10
Everything is relative. Even a tepid endorsement for vaccinations from Rand should be viewed as a big deal and major repudiation of the anti-vaccine movement. When you have an ultra-libertarian, who would have probably opposed child-labor laws a hundred years ago, taking any pains to protect children from their irresponsible parents, that's a big deal. It's like a Trump tweet with a meetoo hashtag.
9
Measles was never eradicated. In the Americas it was, and still is, eliminated, but not eradicated.
10
Yes - because the vaccine does not confer as thorough immunity as the ‘natural’ virus (which may also be relatively mild in healthy well-tended children, as we of the ‘measles party’ era we’ll know!): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646939/
1
Deirdre, in comment below has the key to this insanity - insurance. Let every insurance company refuse to insure anyone who chooses (not forced by medical necessity) not to be vaccinated. Parents realizing they could be faced with million dollar hospital bills, resulting in confiscation of their total net worth, would have to think twice about throwing science out the window for a belief in a conspiracy theory.
69
Exactly right.
People who vaccinate their kids should be outraged at people who elect not to: the anti-vaxxers are using the vaccinated kids as a shield. No parent, grandparent or sane citizen should tolerate such crass exploitation!
The claimed liberty of a minority of anti-vaxxers to refuse vaccination must be weighed against the right of the majority to be free from entirely avoidable threats to child health and safety.
BTW, "herd immunity" not just about the percentage of vaccinated kids in your county or state, it's about the immune status of the kids your kids come in contact with on the playground, the bus and in the classroom. The wildfire measles outbreaks in Washington and New York states make that crystal clear. Notice, too, that the infection spread outside those closed communities.
We can't afford to remain idle. It's time that sanity regained control of vaccination policy.
40
I just looked it up. In young kids, fever occurs in about 5-15%. Rash about 5%. Joint pain 0.5%. Febrile seizures happen in the first couple of weeks after MMR in 1 per 3000 to 4000 doses, whereas seizure during fever happens in about 2-4% of all kids younger than age 5. There is not a link to recurrent seizures, no higher risk of subsequent seizure or neurodevelopmental disability than unvaccinated kids with febrile seizures. MMR does not appear to be associated with encephalopathy.
So, statistics get tricky here. For a highly effective vaccine, in a fully vaccinated population the chance of major illness from vaccine is very small, but greater than the chance of getting the disease, which is almost zero. As soon as you have a significant pool of unvaccinated kids the calculation flips back to highly favoring vaccination.
Infectious disease is an area where governments have frequently chosen to overrule personal choice for the greater good of the population. Quarantine anyone? I can't imagine the pain of the parents whose child became ill from a vaccine, or the pain of the parents of a child who died from a preventable disease. Personally, I'm not a fan of epidemics.
8
@Robert Coney Also the first three sound similar to the "side effects" for teething (fever, rash, gum pain).
7
Sometimes common sense eludes people and social media takes hold. If you read it on Facebook chances are it ain’t true. You know Bonjour. Do real research. Don’t vaccinate if you still feel that way but also don’t put your kids in a public school setting. I think perhaps those who don’t vaccinate should be taxed for their failure in public safety. If we can stop the spread of typhoid by isolating Mary then so be it.
10
Isn’t the whole point of vaccination to protect kids from catching the disease? It would be smarter to mix vaccinated & unvaccinated populations to see how well the vaccine actually works: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646939/
1
I am a big believer in vaccinations. That includes yearly vaccinations against the flu. Since more children die each year from the flu than from Measles why don't we see more articles discussion why we should make flu vaccinations mandatory for all adults and children.
19
The first child I knew who died died of the flu.
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@Scott
The flu vaccine is less effective than these others!! BTW WE sill never wipe out the flu as we did smallpox.
2
The enemy is irrationality . That is true regarding the fear of vaccines , the denial of climate change and even the support of a significant part of the population for a president with autocratic tendencies . This is not our finest hour .
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@Bernardo Izaguirre MD NVIC dot org. Those who question vaccine safety have nothing to do with denial of climate change. These are unrelated subjects and it is irrational to conflate the two.
3
@Bernardo Izaguirre MD I have often wondered how there was a shift from an age of learning to the Dark Ages. Now I know, because I think I am living in it. Irrationality combined with a complete lack of critical thinking.
5
I contracted measles while serving jury duty in Brooklyn in the big breakout of 1991. My doctor said my childhood vaccine had lost its efficacy or was inert. Thankfully my hearing and vision were not permanently affected; hair and skin loss was my issue. As a an adult, measles is a brutal and painful illness. I cannot imagine a young child experiencing this. If you haven't been vaccinated, please do it today.
102
@Pam So what I am reading is that the herd immunity has been compromised - and all adults should probably be getting a booster.
14
@Here's The Thing No. It was well publicized that a cohort of MMR administered in the 1960-70s wasn't fully effective. I was in that group and re-vaccinated. If you fall into that category, you should re-vaccinate. Not everyone needs to.
12
@KKW-Not true. The recommendation for two doses of MMR started in the early 1990s for everyone when it was determined that one dose was not providing adequate immunogenicity. The only people who do not need two doses are the cohort born before 1957 who are all thought to have gotten immunity naturally, and therefore do not need the vaccine at all.
2
What is baffling is how these uninformed individuals are making a choice that may impact the general public including my soon to be born grandson. Their freedom comes at a cost to the rest of us. Another sign of the insanity that grips US norms.
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@Maureen
That is precisely the issue. This is not like making a personal choice that affects no one other than yourself, or perhaps your immediate family.
4
"In one recent congressional hearing, Senator Rand Paul, a medical doctor, acknowledged that the benefits of vaccines far outweigh the risks. But instead of taking a stand for vaccination mandates, he warned of sacrificing “liberty for a false sense of security.”"
Political gadfly Rand Paul should be ashamed of himself. Exploiting the mantle of his medical training he elevates his political theories over public health?
Thanks a bunch. I can't believe diseases finally eradicated from their deadly presence in this country (yes, measles can maim, and not just kids) are returning to infect the population due to feckless politicians and online misinformation campaigns. What's next? Polio?
What has become of our national sanity? There are days I think the internet is taking us back to the Dark Ages, destroying our brains as well as our country.
There has to be greater accountability for public figures, what people say, the hysteria they condone, and the science denial they wear like a badge of honor.
Willful ignorance is destroying not only our public discourse but also our public health protections.
170
@GBrown I checked the facts on vaccine injuries, only to find they're extremely rare, and often do to incorrect administration: https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/total-payments-vaccine-injury-petitioners-reached-403-billion-dollars-november-30-2018
When I read these statistics like these and compare the costs of such injuries versus the cost of not administering any vaccines at all, it seems a slam-dunk case. Nothing in life is 100% safe or certain, except death and taxes. Public health rules are made by weighing the greater good for a given community. Would you prefer the return of measles, polio and other diseases that cause great harm to children over the rigorous cost-benefit analysis medical scientists and ethics professionals make for the cause of public health?
25
@GBrown ....Vaccination isn't just about personal safety it is about public safety. You are not allowed to drive a car on public highways unless you pass an eye exam and a driver's test. The purpose of the driver's test is not just to protect you but also to protect the public. Same with vaccinations. People who do not get vaccinated should be prohibited from public places.
25
@W.A. Spitzer
You obviously read my original comment that has been censored out but I never said that I was against vaccination. I do acknowledge that vaccine injuries happen and people are concerned about injuries and their concerns deserve to be heard, validated and discussed. When liberals start to support censorship as a way to prevent measle outbreaks, that's when I part company.
3
Parents have substantial discretion over the medical treatment of their children. There are dozens of court cases involving Christian Scientists who don’t believe in modern medicine, sometimes letting their children die. These cases involve religion and seldom involve communicable diseases. But they generally address parents’ rights and the rights of the state. And they are not simple cases. If the state can mandate vaccination, it may be able to mandate other medical treatment. Be careful what you wish for.
4
Swimming pools require head caps. So, sure, you can decline the vaccinations for your children. And perhaps a little league team or summer camp or local playground will decline to allow your child to participate on their premises without the proper protections which the majority of members feel necessary. Hang that stigma on your kid.
15
@Will Eigo: Yes. I am retired now. I used to work in the office of a public elementary school. Part of my job was coordinating the county health department on our students' vaccinations, each year and those who still needed vaccinations had to have it done by a certain date, or they were not allowed in school until they got their vaccinations. This was just before the tipping point of the anti-vax craze. There were a few households whose parents didn't want their kids vaccinated and had to sign a waiver for religious or personal "beliefs". The thing is, these vaccination requirements were for the safety of the children's health. It boggles my mind - vaccinations kept children from getting terrible diseases that maimed and sometimes caused death...and we have parents nowadays, who are playing the odds. Yes, sometimes some people do have reactions. But...the alternative?
5
@michjas Or read about the idiot parents who allowed their child to get tetanus. A month in ICU, $800k of medical expenses and then they refuse to vaccinate after they've seen the horror of tetanus?
At some point when parents willfully neglect their own role to provide adequate treatment/care, the government should be stepping in.
The parents of an unvaccinated child who contracts tetanus who refuse to act in the best interests of their child ought to prosecuted. And get stuck with the medical costs of their poor decision making.
3
Vaccines are not 100% safe either. They also cause hospitalizations, seizures, lifelong brain damage and even death. Can that also be discussed or must we shut up anyone that has concerns about negative vaccine side effects? The way that people's concerns are being ridiculed and now completely silenced is not helping and will likely cause even more distrust.
6
@GBrown
Complications are rare - and the benefits for society far outweigh any potential risk.
You are much more likely to die or be permanently injured in almost ANY other activity you pursue in life, whether for pleasure or necessity, than dying or being permanently injured from a vaccine.
65
@GBrown because statistically speaking the great harm done to infants who can not yet be vaccinated, pregnant women, and those with suppressed immune systems is much, much higher - than any of those who might incur side effects. Side effects from the vaccine are very, very rare. The mortality rates for the above populations are well documented and not uncommon.
35
Your odds of dying in a car crash are far greater than having a serious adverse reaction to a vaccine. I assume you don’t avoid driving, so why avoid the verified benefits of vaccines? Walk through an old cemetery and read the family headstones from the 1800’s and the early 1900’s before vaccinations existed. You will find that parents lost some, and in some cases all, of their children to diseases that now are a distant memory thanks to vaccinations.
15
It is unconscionable that actions by individuals known to be harmful to bystanders is condoned. Refusal to vaccinate children against preventable infectious diseases is harmful to society at large and potentially catastrophic to children who become infected. The link between vaccination and autism (for example) has been thoroughly disproven. It is so fantastic a notion that a professional who advocates against vaccination is committing malpractice. Yet, on national television, a physician cultivating a presidential bid, equivocated on the value of vaccination. Rather than condemnation, he was rewarded with a Cabinet post. A US Senator who proudly appends his medical degree to his name is willing to sacrifice truth and facts to pander for "conservative" votes. He is secure in his Congressional seat.
There must be some consequence for failure to vaccinate children who are otherwise eligible to receive vaccination or to so advocate. Not the least harm is the permanent damage done to children (and adults) whose lives are worsened not least by the immediate effects of illness. Their long-term enjoyment of life and life-time health status is devastated. They may never fulfill their economic or social potential. It must be recognized that vaccination is required unless there is a valid medical contraindication. Failure to vaccinate is as egregious a potential harm as an attempt to willfully smother an infant or willfully starving a child.
89
@KLS Maybe voluntarily non-vaccinated people wear a distinguishing mark so they can be avoided by vulnerable involuntarily non-vaccinated people, such as infants. You can have your freedom to not vaccinate, but it comes with a price.
27
@JBMaybe their health care insurer shouldn't be obligated to pay their medical bills. My guess is a lot of those that refuse vaccinations might have an epiphany if they realize they are on the hook to pay 100% of the bill.
67
@jmendi
Agreed.
People who injure society through their irrational and irresponsible choices should be held accountable proportionally.
See March 8 NYT report :
CDC: Unvacinnated Oregon Boy Almost Dies of Tetanus.
Fortunately, he recovered after weeks of intensive treatment. But after recovery the boy's parents refused vaccination for tetanus and for other communicable diseases.
The cost of treatment exceeded $1,OOO,OOO!
It is likely that the family paid little if anything of this huge cost to society.
There should be laws compelling reimbursement to society in cases such as these. Absent legal remedies, those who bore the costs, hospitals, insurance companies, the state, and the federal government should bring suit for compensation.
12
Every insurance company in America is probably writing an amendment to their policies today that will exclude payment for services for illnesses that could have been avoided by vaccination. The million dollar bill for the little boy with tetanus is outrageous. His suffering unnecessary. The families refusal to vaccinate after that horrendous episode is child abuse. If your freedom affects public health - that is too far.
242
That is the answer, the market. Yes, sincerely. Insurers having two rates of premiums. Lower rate for vaccinated individuals, higher rates for anti-vaxxers. It works with other sorts of risky behaviors. And, the more intrusive route. Parents being liable for child welfare endangerment if preventable ailments befall their children.
87
@Will Eigo
Except the problem is that a lot of these kids are insured by the public plans -- CHIP, Medicaid.
3
@Deirdre Agreed. An individual's right to be stupid ends at my right not to have my newborn die from a preventative disease or have my insurance premiums rise to fund that stupidity. Life is unfair. We can't drink and drive, avoid paying taxes or be our community's typhoid mary.
16
I am almost 66. In the past year I have got the anti-pneumonia, flu, and tetanus shots. I haven't been sick, and the guy in the office next to mine who doesn't get shots because they contain "mercury and all kinds of chemicals" has had pneumonia and the flu.
111
@Ryan
I am 66 and also had the flu and pneumonia inoculations, basically required here for anybody over 65 (and who has some common sense).
The inoculations are not a guarantee, especially regarding the different strains and types of pneumonia, but it seems to me that if there is anything that one might do to perhaps prevent illness, and with fairly little effort, then one has to be a fool to risk it.
65
@Ryan
Let your office neighbor know that he can get a single dose flu vaccine that does not have the mercury containing preservative, thimerosal.
1
US Medicaid reimbursement rates for children’s vaccines is so low does not cover the cost of the vaccine. It actually cost the doctor’s office to administer it. Guess we need the money the money to build the wall. At least the wall will protect Mexicans from our preventable diseases.
50
@Timothy Spradlin
Mexico mandates vaccinations. Fortunately for their children.
2
MMR vaccine uptakes are holding steady in the high 90% range depending on the state. CDC data shows there are no significant drops in state vaccination rates.
Historically, measles cases were in the hundreds of thousands annually before the introduction of the vaccine. Today cases are a small fraction of that and deaths are rare. Over the period from 2010-2018, there have only been five deaths from measles in the U.S.
This year, from January 1 to February 21, 2019, 159 individual cases of measles have been confirmed in 10 states. This is within historical norms for the last decade.
3
@Mark
Re the measles numbers, the CDC has reported 206 cases reported in just the first two months of the year--that would annualize at 1,236. The largest number of cases reported annually going back to 2010 was 667 in 2014. This year's number is not within the norms.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html
Looking at nationwide rates ignores the pockets of non-vaccination and their tie-in to outbreaks. For example, the measles outbreak in NYC is tied to a pocket of non-vaccination in yeshivas in Williamsburg.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/nyregion/measles-outbreak-jews-nyc.html
25
@Mark
I am characterizing the data accurately. It's a higher number of cases just for the first two months than the total for every complete year this decade except for 2011 and 2014. That is hardly "within historical norms".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/03/08/is-shaping-up-be-worst-year-measles-since-cdc-data-show/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7a050ed2e7bd
It's also the highest January-February total in at least a quarter-century. From 1993-2019, only 2015 saw Jan-Feb totals exceed 150, and only two other years, 1993 and 2014, exceeded 50 (monthly figures for 2004 aren't available) and the 2019 number of 206 is far in excess of all of those. That isn't "within historical norms."
Further, if you're really claiming that we can't extrapolate, then your statement that the current year is within the norms has no foundation whatsoever.
3
this is heartless, but last weeks case of a child who developed tetanus and whose hospital treatment cost nearly a million dollars infuriates me. I feel that the money should have been spent advertising widely this effect of not vaccinating. Even more infuriating is that I believe the newspapers stated that the mother refused vaccinations for other things. ignorance should not be rewarded....so I'm sure the hate mail I will receive for this will be overwhelming....the innocent child, etc. but unvaccinated kids who develop preventable diseases put the lives of many, many other innocents at risk.
135
@Mcacho38 You have nothing to fear. You can be both infuriated at this story and pro the child involved by arguing that because the parents, by refusing further vaccinations even after seeing their child suffer greatly and nearly die for lack of immunization, should be forced to rescind their parental rights on the grounds that they pose a danger to his care. They can remain in the anti-vaxxer cult, but the child can be rescued.
21
@Mcacho38, I agree with you completely. Thank you for speaking out.
10
My wife was against flue and pneumonia vaccine and didn't take it "because she ate well and took vitamins". Well after 7 days in the hospital with pneumonia and a bill of 40K she has changed her outlook and now is first on line.
229
@Thomas Renner
And sadly it that something like that, or a dead child, to change people's minds.
15
I've read a lot of comments from other articles that basically just tell me that the science is not trustworthy, there is reasonable doubt, and if you want to get the vaccine, go ahead, protect yourself but leave the decision to individual.
That would be fine if the vaccine were 100% effective in the vaccinated -if everyone developed immunity.
But vaccinated people can still be left with a weak response - a fact made very clear when my daughter needed to be re-immunized before working in a hospital. She, and many others, rely on herd immunity - other people complying and reducing the risk to all.
When you don't vaccinate you children you put your kids at risk AND you put your community at risk. Hospital workers, other children, people with weak or compromised immune systems.
We don't let people make choices that injure others: we don't let people drink and drive, or smoke in workplaces, or shoot off a gun near other people's homes. Not vaccinating your children hurts *others.* That is the compelling social reason for requiring the immunizations. It is a responsibility.
As with so many other things, people - like Rand Paul - focus on what they feel are their rights and forget that whole responsibility part.
283
@Cathy
The claim that some vaccines cause autism has been debunked; it started with a British doctor who has since lost his license. Mothers who do not vaccinate their children, absent a documented medical reason, are depriving children of safety from devastating diseases. The children have no choice.
49
You have elucidated the true tragedy here - so many lives could be saved and misery avoided if people who make up a society would simply act that way.
The "common good" is called that because it reflects the basic need to protect society from circumstances which are avoidable.
Numerous studies have proven that vaccinations are safe for the vast majority and a proven protector from certain illnesses.
Perhaps the current climate of challenging even the most obvious scientific evidence feeds into this decision by some to shun innoculations. I look forward to the day when reason and clear thinking once again have the upper hand. But I'm not holding my breath........
17
@Linda Miilu
You are so right! Children who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons, such as severe allergies or chemotherapy, depend on the "herd immunity" of others around them.
19