It's a shame to see the UMC go through the same conflicts that split the Episcopal Church a few years ago. Given that UMC is among the more liberal large Christian churches, it is a particular shame.
When will people understand that if they believe that we are made in God's image, that includes gay people too. Nowhere does the Bible say that gay people are to be rejected and shunned.
They have missed a wonderful opportunity to modernize in accordance with the best science of the day, which finds that gayness is as built in as straightness is.
21
Recently I attended the Metropolitan Community Church in Hawaii. They have dispensed with the unnecessary proselytizing on this topic and proceeded to have a warm welcoming environment for all. If you are a Methodist in search of a spiritual home, consider this growing worldwide church. Leave the judgement to a Higher Authority and give priority to your relationship with God.
8
The ignorance shown in this internecine conflict is astounding, such as: “We do need to praise God and multiply and same-sex marriage will not allow us to multiply,” she said.
I, for one, am among millions of parents who gave birth to children after marrying same sex partners.
The birth rate, globally and in this country, is primarily a result of the actions of heterosexuals, since long term studies show that LGBTQ people probably number about 5% of the global population (in 2018 a Gallup report states that 4.5 percent of the US population identifies as LGBTQ)—and certainly less than 10%.
More data on LGBT parenting statistics here: http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/LGBT-Parenting.pdf
6
Ironic that a Duke Divinity School official comments that this news is too bad... but they have a rule that gays and lesbians can't be married in the chapel in their building on Duke's campus.
4
Thank goodness I'm an atheist
7
@Daryl
You mean like the position of the Soviet Union. It doesn’t put anybody on a moral high ground.
1
“...Marina Yugay, a member from Russia, said that her concerns about same-sex marriage had made her uncomfortable with the more progressive direction of many American Methodists.
“We do need to praise God and multiply and same-sex marriage will not allow us to multiply,” she said. “If you do not agree with this, you are violating the law of the creator.”...”
Firstly, does this women think that by being inclusive and not discriminating in a church,
all methodists or humanity will stop procreating, or as she calls it multiplying?
And secondly, her last name is “Yugay.”
I guess the irony is lost on her.
7
Sigh. I used to attend a Presbytarian church which had more progressive values. I believe very much in God and spirituality. I also believe that love is the thing that binds us all together. And that so many churches are missing the entire message of Christ’s message. That we’ve all sinned, and that we’re all not worthy, and that but for the Grace of God go we.
If Christ were to return today, he’d be hanging out in the bars like a hippy attempting to bring the good news to drug addicts, drunks, prostitutes, and people who really need it. He would decry the hypocrites amongst us. And the very first people in line to crucify him would be the hard core evangelicals. Because his message would be incongruent with their rigid dogma and hate. They ARE the Pharisees.
The Methodist Church has decided to align itself with these people, and they will be continue to be stupified (as is the rest of the protestant faith, it seems) at just how many people are no longer participating in organized religion. The answer is that they are no longer relevant to the lives that the rest of us lead. And they have let their dogma blind them to the Good News they purport to preach. You’re hoist with your own petard.
11
What I find disturbing in the pro-gay commentary on this subject is not that they think there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. We all know that many, many people in our society agree with that view. What is disturbing to me is the hostility of those who seem to think that a branch of the Christian Church has no right to determine for itself whether it agrees with what so many people think is the only possible view of this subject. To me, that is not only contrary to classical liberal views of tolerance, but it suggests exactly what I said in my initial comment, namely, that there is in fact pro-gay bigotry on this subject. It is, after all, just barely possible that Christians have a right to hold and maintain their own view and discipline on this subject. Moreover, it is just barely possible that their rejection of homosexuality is most conducive to flourishing families and the health and well-being of children--just exactly because it is just barely possible that a man and a woman working together in love are the most adapted to bringing children to productive adulthood. That's what the Jewish and Christian consensus on this subject has been for roughly 3200 years. Now, suddenly, in this most enlightened of all 40-year periods in the history of these religions, we have a new view that entitles the old view to be utterly overthrown. I just can't go there.
7
Here are some verses from Chapter 21 of Deuteronomy:
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Nobody obeys these verses. In all likelihood, nobody ever did.
Here is what the Bible says about homosexuality:
Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
We don't literally obey that verse either, although we continually to believe that the Bible outlaws homosexuality.
Here is what Jesus said about looking at a woman with lust:
Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
I assume that nobody ever obeyed those words.
Humanity has always been selective in obeying the words of the Bible. We need not worry about or obey the prohibition of homosexuality. There have always been homosexuals. They are part of the variety and glory of the Creation.
9
The Traditional Plan was the right outcome if you believe that homosexuality is not conducive to the Christian faith. The Church as a whole will continue to battle the progressive left and its redefining of the truth of Gods Word. They would rather believe the lie that Satan continues to propigate than the truth of Scripture. Love without truth is Not real love! Its a pathway straight to hell.
Ultimately, there is no "winning" the theological argument. But practically speaking, this is what is going to happen. The Big/city/liberal/solvent churches are going to leave with their assets and finances. The Conservative/small/country/marginally solvent churches will stay in the formerly UMC, along with the definitely insolvent african/asian churches. It has insolvency written all over it. If I was an employee of the UMC, I would start looking for a different job. They should have just kicked the African/Asians to the curb instead and gone with the One church plan.
4
I'm a little confused. Is it that they're just not going to perform same-sex weddings or are they actually not allowing anyone in a same-sex marriage to attend services and be a member of the church? Though I can't imagine why anyone LGBT person would want to be a member of a church that doesn't perform same-sex weddings and not allow LGBT clergy? They should leave the homophobic church and find an affirming one or leave Christianity.
3
While my heart breaks for those that are or wish to be clergy members, the church will be the one to incur the biggest loss.
3
I used to be a so-called cafeteria Catholic. I chose what appealed to me and ignored the rest. I was an educated, professional woman. I guess I thought the Church's teachings were there for me to interpret as I saw fit. Talk about hubris. As if the Church is there to bend and bow to my ephemeral needs instead of upholding eternal truths. So I had a choice. I could accept the Church's teachings––all of them––or I could leave. I stayed, but it's been a tough row to hoe. Many a time I've squirmed in the pew as I've listened to the Gospel. Jesus was not all love and light. He made some strongly worded, unequivocal statements about money and divorce and a lot of other things that are difficult to reconcile in the modern world. No one ever said it was going to be easy. Least of all Jesus Christ.
9
Accepting homosexuality as well ok and not a sin in Christian faith would be the same as saying adulterous behavior is ok and not a sin. This push in the church is anti ethical to Christian believe
3
@Kiara Well, somehow you manage to rationalize divorce. And Richard Nixon was president the last time 2 virgins were married in your church.
6
Obviously, the Methodist are not united
4
Who really cares about all this? Religion is just ignorant mythology.
9
"...clergy who officiate at same-sex weddings could receive a minimum one-year, unpaid suspension, and a second offense could result in removal from the clergy."
The Methodists are cracking down on their same-sex brothers and sisters more than the Catholics are cracking down on their brothers who are proven serial sexual abusers of children.
Oh, the...humanity?
7
The vote only demonstrates why organized religion continues to relegate itself to irrelevance in a secularizing country.
11
As a 70-year old lesbian, I am no longer disappointed nor shocked at the agenda of organized religion that picks and chooses which humans deserve the title of worthy or valuable.
I know who I am, the good, the bad and the ugly. Since coming out of the closet at age 28, I have never placed my homosexuality into that slipstream of that which should be persecuted under the law or under religious belief systems in order to make one superior to the other.
Regardless of religious doctrine, books of reference or the preaching from man-made altars of discrimination, bigotry and racism, the fact remains that all of this confluence of right wing ideology is nothing more, nothing less than man-made. If I cannot serve a useful, honorable and productive purpose and life while on this earth, of what benefit would I be in a fantasy afterlife? I am not afraid of death. I am afraid of the continued suffering, injury and violence inflicted daily upon those who are homosexual by those who have adopted their bad and ugly side of humanity.
15
What is Church ? Is it a Social Club ? A place to voice YOUR opinions YOUR words ? What happened to John 17:17..and Truth says in Leviticus 18 thru 32. Romans 1: 24 -32... 2Timothy 4:3... Psalms 119: 160. I don't understand the upset, quitting your church, protesting. I don't get it you can't change Truth, but you can change wrong.
2
How unChristian can a church group get?
7
I was struck by the comment made by one conservative church commentator: “If you do not agree with this, you are violating the law of the creator.” To which I have two responses: (1) Anyone who claims -- with certainty -- to know the specific will of the creator, almost certainly doesn't, and (2) your religious philosophy seems to amount to little more than "Believe as I believe. Or else!"
Intelligent, thoughtful people are abandoning traditional religions in droves. No need to ask why.
17
Not time for a new movement. Time to throw off the superstitions of -and profit motives - of organized religion and look beyond giant space fairies of any kind.
5
The saddest thing of all is the spectacle of gay folks wanting to belong to an outfit that doesn't really like them. Let them have their purified clubhouse and don't look back.
7
@Blair The problem is that the US conservatives have staged a hostile takeover of the US church by enlisting the votes of the regressive African/Asian churches. Liberal (affluent) congregations will leave, leaving the smaller conservative US churches to try to support the insolvent and intolerant 3d world churches. They just committed suicide.
3
If religion preaches, first and foremost, that we love each other and love God, then why, throughout history, and again with this vote, does organized religion act so exclusionary when its own tenets say it should be so inclusive?
It's not just the Methodists - they're just the latest rotten example of people messing up the most fundamental of religious principles.
5
I can only wonder why there wasn’t a better way to handle this disagreement. It’s sad to me that it was reduced to a question of international power: mere votes. A right to impose on others. Threats of violence and punitive action are once again memorialized. It seems like an institutional problem to me. Like the U.S. electing Trump. I can only believe that as a question of faith there is something other than raw power for an individual human being to consider. At bottom a denomination is an institution, apparently Methodism is a flawed one, a flawed political animal. Perhaps all denominations are, some more than others. My Faith in a higher power is determined by my individual belief, my spirituality if you will, and I’ll never believe the majority's institutional orthodoxy. Its so called bible based view of sexuality. Whether I formally drop my membership as a Methodist or not (which I’m seriously considering), nothing has changed for me as a spiritual person.
2
Organized religion, please go away.
7
Religion is a personal relationship with God. Trying to unify a common view of this relation within a community (Church) is bound to fail. Enforcing a common religion view onto a group of individuals goes against the basic human right of free thought.
1
I regret seeing the faith pass up an opportunity to modernize and become more welcoming to marginalized groups, but we must respect the institution's right to exercise their First Amendment prerogatives.
8
While they must give up their non-profit status.
9
@The Buddy
There’s nothing modern About “what you do to the least of them you do to me”
And there’s nothing marginalizing about turning somebody away at the inn
Very charitable choice of words on your part
6
Re: '...but we must respect the institution's right to exercise their First Amendment prerogatives..."{The Buddy}
...I DO!
Each, 'N, every time I pass, by the numerous Xian_worship_facilities in my community, w/o so, much as noticing their physical, and / or, (allegedly...), 'spiritual' existence!!
1
I grew up in the Seventh Day Adventist church, a very conservative, "end times" church that thought it was going to become a persecuted remnant just prior to the Apocalypse (don't ask -- doesn't every religion have nutty ideas?); as an adult, I have long since stopped attending.
My conclusion is that it won't be any particular denomination that will be a "remnant" -- it'll be all of them. A remnant of elderly folks who will cling to a past that will never return. A remnant that can't pay for a pastor or to keep up a building. Seems like more and more people are saying, "Fine. You can have it" and will take their money and go elsewhere.
9
I have not read in this article that homosexuals and gays are excluded from worshipping within the Methodist Church. All are welcome. They are just opposed to gay marriage and gay clergy within their religion. Marriage is still defined by many as a union between one man and one woman. This will never change no matter how modern our society becomes.
4
The law of this country reads otherwise.
5
Homophobia is endemic to Catholicism and Protestantism.
If God did not make the LGBTQ in his own image in whose image were they made?
Jesus and his Twelve Disciples could be construed as having been on a three year gay pride parade. While Peter and the others cowered in fear and lied the Three Marys were present at the Crucifixion, the Empty Tomb and the resurrected Christ.
7
@Blackmamba The homophobia endemic in Catholicism and Protestantism pales in comparison to that in Islam. I have not seen any calls for the death penalty in either of the first two religions.
I am in favor of full legal rights for the LGBTQ community. That, however, does not include the right to force any groups to change their rules to accommodate them. A person chooses the religion he is a part of, and if the rules do not reflect his or her beliefs then a change is in order.
5
@Blackmamba, LGBTQ wasn't made in his image. It's a sin. With your logic we could claim any sin to be made in his image. Read your Bible.... it talks about homosexuality. How dare you associate Christ and the disciples to a "Gay pride parade".
3
@Mark
Who was God's mother?
Adam's mother? Eve's mother?
The Old Testament was surpassed by the New Testament which was revised by the Quran.
Who was Jesus father?
1
Raised in this church. My grandfather was a minister.. Will never go back. Evangelical and mainstream folks calling themselves “Christian” and who are supporting this morally corrupt, narcissist autocrat—-probably need to re read the New Testament and rehearse their defense of their souls for Judgement day. I always thought the evangelicals were the ultimate in hypocrisy. Seeing a mainstream church like the Methodists start down the road of hate and fear is disturbing. Maybe it is good if this is exposing these purveyors of “religion” for what they are. The Methodist church had a history of supporting the KKK, so this is not entirely new.
10
I can’t believe that this ruling is representative of the average Methodist on the ground. Is it? Can’t believe any Methodists I know would want to legislate what people do in the sanctity of their own homes. Especially in this day and age when Gay Marriage is recognized as the law of the land. Whew!
3
Charlotte,
Another reader commented astutely that the rich solvent churches (mostly urban) will split off, leaving the poor rural churches to hold up the banner.
Seems like your observation underscores that reality.
I do worry about the divisions in small county parishes around the country. Methodist outliers without good options will continue to suffer what those of my faith, Episcopalians, had to endure before the schism. It is my impression that in most court cases where conservatives split from their Episcopalian churches and then claimed a share of the assets, those claims were denied.
Seems to me, this split will have massive negative financial repercussions for the church. That means massive financial hardships for the organizations that benefit from Methodist charity.
1
There are over 400 species on Earth (created by God?) which exhibit instances of homosexuality (e.g., penguins who mate for life) but only one species that exhibits homophobia...
12
It is so sad that gay and lesbian people want to fight for the scraps from the table when this is just another example how "religion perpetuates" a false narrative about our relationship to our Creator. In the ancient wisdom we can read a more Intelligent response: But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
2
The Methodist Church, in which I was raised, and which my mother's family has belonged to going back four generations, has pretty much just killed itself. And for what? In the last congregation to which I belonged, it was an open secret that our minister was gay. Who cared?
If we believe that Jesus Christ came to Earth to learn how difficult it is to live as one of the humans he purported to be here to save, then for all we know, Jesus may have been gay.
I cannot believe that a denomination that desperately needs to survive, to attract new young members and to live what it preaches has done this to itself.
5
@DLM, you need to seriously read a Bible...
1
These 'christian churches' are nothing more than vanity clubs that write self-serving rules to make themselves feel special.
Eileen Pagels wrote a book about Revelation and described in it how early church bosses back then fought and bullied others to make their own ideas become mainstream, i.e. "orthodox".
This thought control appears to be a necessary part of the 3 Abrahamic cults of the middle east (Judaism, Islam, Christianity). How exactly does a miserable desert do this to people living there? They are just plain mean.
“the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.”
Yeah, whose teaching, which christian club?? Note that no one says anything about Jesus, just the "christians".
3
[[United Methodists Tighten Ban on Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Clergy]]
Good. Now you know where they stand. Act accordingly.
3
Let's just take a moment to remember (and enjoy) the gay penguins in Australia: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/15/style/gay-penguins-australia.html
Are they sinners, too?
5
Hey future Metho-don'ts! The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Amerca (ELCA) welcomes all - visit us this Sunday!
4
They cater to who provides $$$. This well will run dry. Death is inevitable.
1
OK, The United Methodist Church as reaffirmed its values, now you have a decision to make. If you stay, you are saying "I agree and support their values." If you do not, then you should find a church that you can be comfortable in.
BTW, the same applies to Catholics, they must be comfortable with harboring pedophile priests. If they are not, they should leave because just like the Methodists, they are not going to change.
This might be an opportunity to rethink your support of religion in general. . . .
2
@Bruce1253, your values on homosexuality seems to contradict God's word in the Bible. Maybe you have a decision to make about whether you even believe in God.
1
Mark,
I am reading your comments with interest. Just as a reminder, it’s my impression that the Main Line Protestant denominations (my own faith tradition) generally look to the New Testament of the Bible, not the Old Testament, first for inspiration.
There is very little mention made of homosexuality in the New Testament, and no condemnation that survives serious textual and contextual scrutiny by scholars. Almost all reputable scholars agree that homosexuality was not a major focus of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Furthermore, Jesus Christ gave the word of God a major update during his lifetime. His superseding commandment to love one another, plus his demand (of God/himself) of forgiveness, impose peace and tolerance on a violent world, as chronicled in the Old Testament.
Christianity developed after the death of Jesus Christ, not before it. Just thought I’d remind you of that.
1
What happened to Jesus' words: "“Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”?
— Mark 12:28-31
3
@Literatelily, They didn't say they didn't love thy neighbor. They said they don't except a openly sinful lifestyle into the church nor gay marriage. God didn't change his views on sin. Homosexuality is definitely talked about in the Bible and it's pretty clear. Don't miss quote Christ to fit your world view.
1
@Mark
Loving your neighbor as yourself does not include keeping some people from "joining your club"! I didn't misquote (note spelling) Jesus; you are simply ignoring his words! We could search the Bible all day, but you cannot deny that Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are loving God and loving your neighbor. " On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:40 Jesus makes NO exceptions; how dare you?!
1
Mark, once again, Christ apparently said nothing during his lifetime about homosexuals or homosexuality. At least: no words to that effect are recorded in the New Testament of the Bible. Christ was not yet born in the Old Testament. To follow Christ to the letter means not to give a second thought to homosexuality. If it didn’t concern Christ, why does it concern you?
Please check your facts.
Christ said, this is my greatest commandment: love one another as I have loved you.
As far as I’m concerned, end of story.
2
Ah! Christianity - still the bastion of hatred, exclusion, and oppression it has been for two thousand years. The teachings of Jesus (the purported focus of the religion) are always secondary to the political agenda and business interests of the hierarchy. Some things never change. Years ago I was working at a Disciples of Christ Church (another denomination also often in flux over the ability to accept other people) and across the street was the big Methodist church in town. It was a prestigious church with lots of prominent local people in attendance. But when needy people came into the Methodist church in some sort of crisis, they were usually brought across the street to our place, because it was well known that we would find them food, shelter and resources to address their problems. That told me everything I needed to know about that denomination.
4
@Keith, do you think murder is ok or various other sins? God didn't ask you to set the bar for Christianity. He was pretty clear about sin... He only asks that, in Christ's name, you turn away from said sin and ask for forgiveness. I love it when people confuse ideological political beliefs with the word of God and claim it's hate. You are to seek God and ask for forgiveness, not the other way around. Seems you might be the bastion of confusion.
@Mark - How does murder suddenly get introduced into this? Murder and theft are universally eschewed, and not because of religious proscription, but because they inherently lead to an unstable and insecure society.
And YOU seem to have your own unique interpretation of the Bible, which clearly represents your OWN world view, and nothing more. The Bible is absolutely NOT clear on what sin is, in spite of the large quantity of space dedicated to the topic. Do you want to include all of the more than 600 Hebraic laws? Are the churches up in arms about eating shellfish, mixing textiles, shaving, etc.? Seems pretty selective.
What IS completely clear is the accepted definition of what constitutes hate: "intense dislike or ill will" and what could be more demonstrative of ill will than telling people they are inferior and not entitled to the same rights that YOU enjoy just because they look, or think or act differently? That is the very embodiment of self-entitlement, privilege, bigotry and discrimination - and that is exactly what the Methodist Church has now endorsed as essential to Christianity. It demonstrates exactly how political the denomination has become and the degree to which it chooses to ignore the actual teachings of Jesus, who taught love and tolerance, not condemnation and oppression. I might suggest you look up his words and put them into practice rather than electing the dogmatic and condescending approach you demonstrated in your last reply.
1
I am a Protestant seminary graduate who has attended Methodist et al "mainline" churches for decades. The LGBT question is esp critical because Christians have not found the wisest framework for its consideration. I dare add some suggestion of wisdom because I don't hear these thoughts elsewhere.
Briefly, non-traditional sexual orientations are cultural, not inherited--the result of nurture, not nature. Christians have to judge the culture as not in line with divine intentions, but they don't have to focus on "the judgment part". The Spirit of God compels them to focus on "the love part". They are given grace by God, and reciprocally are moved to give grace to those who have been influenced by culture in ways they don't appreciate. (I don't think anyone appreciates how culture determines sexual orientation.) Grace is what's missing here, an emphasis on "the love part".
What scripture calls idolatry, "the world", "the flesh" is the field of culture in which Christians practice their faith. We need to understand and appreciate both the spirit of the world and the Spirit of God, and then act with the Spirit of God. What keeps churches from dealing with issues such as the LGBT question involves failures in both areas.
That's the best advice I can offer on this difficult issue.
@Tom, that's not true. You are pushing the blame on the church for adhering to God's word. Christians are not to judge, but to obey the world of God. God is pretty clear about sin and homosexuality. God doesn't change his views on sin to fit cultural trends. He asks you to turn away from sin and ask for forgiveness. If homosexuals were seeking God and turned from their sin asking for forgiveness, this wouldn't be an issue now would it? The burden is not on the members of a church, but the ones proud of their sin asking for God to allow them a seat at the table... the arrogance in that is mind-boggling.
"If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. "
@Mark
It's hard to respond to this. When you say "that's not true", what is "that"? When you say I'm "pushing the blame on the church for adhering to God's word", I'm at a loss for how to respond.
Seems like you are reading into my comments something I haven't said, and you are inviting me to read into your comments a discussion of whether gay & lesbian orientation is a sin before God. I have said that the church needs to contextualize how to respond to this issue. I guess I'm saying that God isn't as "clear about sin and homosexuality", as you ostensibly want to believe.
There are cultural roots, and all human cultures are rooted in worldliness--rebellion against God, sin--but to tell a gay person it isn't right to feel the way he does about sexuality isn't my right, because I believe such people when they say they can't help it. And I don't judge them for their innermost feelings.
1
Mark,
Christians are not to obey the law of God. It is Jews whose primary job is to obey the Law or the Torah. Christians are admonished by Christ to make heaven on earth, to love others as we love ourselves, and to practice forgiveness.
I admit, I agree with a writer above sho suggests gently that you are in confusion about a few basics that many Main Line Christians hold as true.
I am taking the time to offer these comments, and to participate here, because I have often felt misunderstood as a Christian when fundamentalists co-opt Christianity and claim it for themselves. Any Christian who emphasizes Old Testament teachings over New Testament teachings (certain Baptist communities, for example, come to mind) has a totally different outlook and focus from that of my own understanding and tradition of Christian faith and/or community.
I am moved by the comments here about how hurtful it is to feel excluded, which certainly was never a teaching of Jesus Christ. To those of us with Main Line Protestant faith traditions or practices, this co-opting excludes us and can seem offensive. I hope you and other readers can understand.
Perhaps the Methodists need to re-study the 10 Commandments. It seems ithe Church has given its approval and forgiveness to many things forbidden in the commandments, and now has forgotten how to love their neighbors also. One can’t pick and choose which directives in the Bible are acceptable and which are not for modern society If you are a strict fundamentalist. I prefer to think that we are all loved and accepted by God, no matter what others may perceive of us. Otherwise the Methodists would not permit second marriages. I believe sexuality is not a matter of choice in most cases, but it is determined in the womb.
3
Gayle,
Jesus Christ never said adhere to the Ten Commandments. They were recorded long before his time. He said I give you this, a new commandment which is greater than all the rest: love one another as I have loved you.
As he died he told (did not beg) God (of whom the faithful consider him to be a part) to forgive his killers.
So: we as Christians end up with love and forgiveness as our new marching orders.
That in a nutshell is the faith/theological/intellectual aspect of the legacy of Jesus Christ, as far as I can make out.
When I was a young girl my mother took a job as a secretary in a
nearby business. This was early 60’s. One Sunday my brother
and I were sent to church - Methodist - but my parents didn’t go.
The pastor at the time gave his sermon on the evils of working
mothers which of course meant mine. I loved my mother and
understood her need to work. I never forgot the pain and
humiliation. I would have thought the church would be past this
kind of thinking by now. I am saddened but not surprised.
3
@Linda, the Bible doesn't say working mothers are sinful or wrong. What that minister said that day was wrong and of the world. This tends to bleed together throughout time because of course we are human. However, the Bible is pretty clear on sin and Homosexuality. This is the word of God across all denominations, not just Methodist. God loves the people but hates their sin and tells us to turn away from it and ask for forgiveness. Why would a Christian church define what is exceptable of the world to God? They wouldn't nor can they speak for God and except sinful lifestyles or marriages of which these homosexuals are proud into God's church.
Isn't it amazing how in this day and age so many people live in a state of mind reminiscent of Medieval Europe and the intolerance so typical of organized religions?
6
Well the ones who support LGBT rights can come join us on the dark side of the nonreligious. :P
1
All this arguing and heartbreak over what is essentially a myth. The myth is supposed to at least bring comfort and a sense of peace in the midst of a fearful turbulent world, and it appears that The Methodist Church is failing many of its members. I call on my LGBTQ brothers and sisters to gather your courage, band together if need be, and leave this useless charade.
1
What a refreshing change. This is not about the Catholic Church. I guess they are not the only ones with dissension in their Church. Churches consists of humans frailty and all.
Organized Christian Religion is confusing at best. It always creates pain, sadness, and hatred.
@rudolf, It does? With whom? The sinful?..... what a concept.....
This is why we are blessed to live in a constitutional democracy where the separation of church and state is a foundational principle of our country. While it hurts those members of the United Methodist Church who support loving equality but are finding rejection and bigotry instead...at least the LAW OF THE LAND renders such sharia type laws as irrelevant. Like millions of others, Methodists, Mormons, Catholics, Christians of all denominations are moving on, leaving the false doctrines of churches that seek to divide and exclude rather than to include, and embrace.
1
When Christians place more emphasis on OT tribal laws about homosexuality than the fullness of Christ’s love they reveal their their limitations. Christ never mentioned homosexuality and for that matter, neither did Moses and there is nothing in the 10 Commandments about homosexuality. When religious authorities reject same gender loving Christians to appease a greater bigotry or ignorance, it is not only abuse, it’s a rejection of Christ’s unconditional love. Christians are not beholden to OT laws, it’s about trying to emulate the radical love of Christ.
3
Folks, find a real Christian church that loves everybody.
2
@Eric, Christians do love everybody.
Come to the Episcopal Church - "We have a legacy of inclusion, aspiring to tell and exemplify God’s love for every human being; women and men serve as bishops, priests, and deacons in our church. Laypeople and clergy cooperate as leaders at all levels of our church. Leadership is a gift from God, and can be expressed by all people in our church, regardless of sexual identity or orientation."
5
@JB Harrison, oh ok. So all of these gay people that fill your church understand that they live sinful lifestyles and asked God's forgiveness, or doesn't your church just not worry about the God part?.... ugh
I am saddened to see this division in the UMC. It echoes that division in the American Episcopal Church that I worked through a decade ago in my book Arguing with God. The unstated premise used to justify this discrimination — the Bible tells us so — is not really addressed other than in paraphrasing biblical references without any attempt to examine the interpretation of those biblical references. Even if one believes the word of God is infallible, it does not mean that every interpretation of that word is infallible.
The African churches, both Methodist and Episcopal/Anglican reverberate with century old, colonial paradigms. It is time to win this argument and not be led by the ignorance of the past.
1
Religion does three things quite effectively; divides people, controls people, deludes people." ~ Carlespie Mary Alice McKinney
6
@Steve Beck, how? I love people that have it all figured out. The hatred of God because of the pleasures of the world. Sure glad God never mentioned that in the Bible..............
It is written in John 13:34-35 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus said, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
I compare the words of the Lord in the Holy Bible with what was written in the NYT article. In a section of the article an ordained elder named Tom Lambrecht stated it would be best for "them" (meaning the progressives) to leave the denomination so that the Methodists could devote more time on ministry and less on what he called, "social issues." What this ordained elder and others like him do not realize is we as disciples of Jesus Christ are to follow in His footsteps and live the gospel. Turning your back on Christians who happen to be homosexual is not what Jesus would do, and it is not how He told us to live our lives.
5
All you who are leaving the Methodists, check out your local Unitarian Universalist church and see if your beliefs and concerns are reflected there.
1
The years go by.
And we Christians are bombarded with voices. People telling us, "The Church must do thus-and-such to survive. These moldy old doctrines--they have nothing to say to the twenty first century. We've gotten past all that. Time for Christians to move on. Get with it. Go with the flow."
But we don't, do we. We stay put. We stand fast.
What to say? To all those clamoring voices telling us that "being gay" is as little in our own control as being born black or white. It's a genetic thing (we're told). Time to get past the voices of hatred and bigotry.
To which--and so help me God! I am not trying to hurt people. To humiliate people. To hassle people. To persecute people. To institute witch hunts--
--to which, nevertheless, we reply, "It is forbidden--quite plainly forbidden--in God's Holy Word." Not a huge number of places, no. But a number. And those places--altogether unambiguous. Straightforward. "Don't do this," they tell us. "Don't. Don't do this."
Tomorrow, New York Times, I visit the doctor. He will tell me to lose weight. He will tell me I weigh too much. He will tell me lot of things.
And so--what'll I say back? "I regard your remarks as hurtful and demeaning. I know how much I should weigh, not you! Good-bye--and good riddance!"
No.
I'm propose to continue to try--
--and lose weight.
'Cause he's the doctor.
He knows.
4
@Susan Fitzwater, you are not alone. I've been reading through some of these comments.... the staggering knowledge of what Christians should do, apparently by rebelling against God's word is hilarious. God talks about this kind of stuff in the Bible... turning away from the sins of the flesh, asking for forgiveness.... yet people are still confused why those proud of an openly sinful lifestyle wouldn't be accepted to lead and teach God's church. Also, why would a christian church marry gay people if God says that "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)" and talks about the marriage between a husband and wife reflecting the image of God? They wouldn't unless they were simply a social group pretending to be a church.
But even with the Bible making this pretty clear to Christians, sources like "The Human Rights Campaign" (liberal organization that only cares about human rights that align with their political ideology) stated an entire article claiming that the Bible doesn't specifically say that homosexuality is a sin....... lol... liberals.... the masters of distortion and group politics.
1
Mark, with respect, you need to please stop spreading this misinformation.
This conversation is about Christianity as practiced by those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. That is the assumption that underlies this entire discussion.
You use the word “God.” But Jesus Christ overruled the entire Old Testament when he issued one new simple commandment. Those of us raised as Christians of many denominations were taught this as children.
If your own faith or religious organization holds different truths to be central, that’s fine. But it is unfair for you to claim your limited understanding of Christianity for all Christians, many of whom have “marching orders” for living faithful lives that come from a more recent source: Jesus Christ, from whose name Christianity itself is derived. Jesus Christ is believed by many Christians to be one with God, and Jesus Christ never said any of the things you are claiming.
Some people need religion to explain the hard and amazing things, from the quotidian, like death to the ineffable, like trying to grasp the enormity of time and space, we create 'god(s)' to live with uncertainty and the unknowable.
The gods that we create say everything about who we are.
Do you believe in a hateful, bigoted, cruel, judgmental god? That's you.
Do you believe in a loving, forgiving, open, embracing god? That's you.
#WeSeeYou
1
Here's the difference between the Institutions of secular Law and Religion.
The core value of Law, constitutional law, is "equal law".
The core value of religion is "hierarchical law".
As you can see, they are in conflict.
The Methodist church is simply reminding you that you can have one or the other - but never both.... no matter how nice you think your church is.
Religion is a Ladder.
Everyone gets a rung, usually for life.
Someone is above you. Who is above you, must be obeyed.
Someone is below you.
You don't have to obey them - you must love them.
That is why , in the Christian religion, a man is to obey God (top rung) and a woman is to obey her husband.
In return, God will love the man who is below him.
But only as long as the man obeys.
This is the Protestantism worked out by Martin Luther.
You love the inferiors, but you obey the superiors.
The Methodist Church is simply reminding everyone that they accept that Ladder.
It accepts the theological placement of every person.
No one is 'equal'.
That's why females are not 'equal', either in the Church OR within the US constitution.
The line has, once again, been drawn in the sand: And, you will obey!
Sure, this is a nasty slap in the face.... but no surprise.
Now, do something that really matters: Get that Equal Rights Amendment passed - now! - and, next time you chose a religion, read the fine print. It matters.
1
“Next time you choose a religion, read the fine print, it matters”
Most people don’t get to choose their religion, it’s forced on them by the family they are born into. Children should not be introduced to any religion until they are at least 15 years old, then they have the ability to read the fine print and somewhat understand what following that religion entails. If they don’t like one, they can join another.
@Cal
Or they can revert back to their original "factory specs" of atheism.
Yes, one is 'born into' a family and is thereby taught all of the minutia of the specifics of the religion that their parents chose, but no one is "born" anything: Not a Christian, nor a Jew, nor a Muslim, nor a (fill in the blank).... all persons ever born, ever, were all born atheist.
However, anyone is "free to pick another", even under the most rigid and rabid theocracy.
They may have to keep their mouth's shut, lest they lose their heads, but that choice is there, as is the choice to believe nothing at all, to return to "factory specs".
In fact, someone is probably designing the religion of "Factoryspecs" even at this moment! (I'm joking...)
It all comes down to CHOICE, Cal.
Be careful what you chose.
1
Man Made Organized Religion is Self-Imploding.
The One Word of God and Jesus is Love.
Whosoever has Love in his/ her/ their hearts are with Me.
Man Made Organized Religion is Self-Imploding as it decrees
to NOT CHOOSE LOVE.
Fear is the lack of Love.
Those of us - who choose to gather in Love for everyone - no matter what their color, their faith, their gender, their cultural heritage or economic reality - do not need a denomination name - for - We choose Love - in all languages, all faiths, all countries, all genders, all cultural heritages...
Heaven does not have churches or books -
Heaven is the Blessing of Light - Love for All -
Walk away from anyone who chooses Fear and Hate...
Walk towards everyone who chooses Love of All.
1
This vote sickens me, not because of the outcome, but because it occurred at all. It represents one more instance of reactionary backlash that we are seeing worldwide in politics, religion, and societies in general. Sometimes I think the backlash represents a generational divide...old, entrenched power structures versus younger, threatening newcomers. It has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with preserving power over. Disgusting.
79
@Carolyn Ryan
If you're not happy with the decision, quit the church. Problem solved.
4
@Third.coast ‘Love it leave,’ eh? What happened to the idea of working for the changes one believes in?
2
@Tony its a sin. Its clearly defined I fail to see why people dont get this
1
"Some pastors and bishops in the United States are already talking about leaving the denomination and possibly creating a new alliance for gay-friendly churches."
soon to be known as the Un-United Methodist Church. How sad, but not surprising, that in this day and age this could happen.
“My kids’ friends are not going to come into the church unless I can tell them about the love part of our church, not just the judgment part,”
If he cannot explain the difference between sin and sinner or what it means to love the sinner and hate the sinner to his "kids friends," he probably needs to turn in his collar and find a job for which he qualified.
1
If inclusiveness and acceptance of gay marriage is "violating the law of the creator", then I want no part of this "creator" or its affiliates
5
That’s it for me
then. Whatever remaining loyalty I have had with the denomination I was raised in has been eliminated. It is now a church, at the denomination level, that will not welcome my children and dear friends. I’m out.
7
Me too. Raised baptist but left decades ago. I tried finding other churches who were welcoming and preached love and acceptance but they no longer exist.
1
This is a textbook case of colonialism in action.
Africans who followed the British (and American) Methodist missionaries allowed their souls to be colonized by their white oppressors’ foreign religion along with their countries. Along with this British religion, they adopted British Victorian views and laws about homosexuality. Britain and America themselves have changed, but in Africa these colonial habits got enshrined and rigidified because they were alien to begin with.
Colonialism, colonialism.
And the British and American Methodist colonizers are experiencing the second edge of colonialism’s double-edged sword. If you send missionaries in to disrupt African religion, Africans will in the future disrupt your religion — hence the geographical split on this issue.
Colonialism — political, cultural or spiritual — is corrupt at its very basis. And a corrupt relationship poisons both parties, including the dominant one. And you will see this happen as the Methodist church shrinks and dies at its source.
5
This is so dumb, disgracing people for the way that God made them. Well, my wife and I must resign our membership; we're not going to belong to a faith that denies that which we believe. Disgusting.
2
Let them vote on who gets into heaven. Just another gutless pointless group of people who claim they know the will of God.
There are many, many causes for people continuing to leave established religions. Among them, a rejection of LGBTQ humans; powerful, hierarchical governing bodies that remain isolated from their members; continued rejection of women in ministry in some faiths; sexual abuse of minors.
In my own case, I left the Roman Catholic religion because it didn’t hear the rumbling call of young people in the 1960s, when we wanted to believe in a loving God, but were portrayed as nihilists, then discarded. Today’s RC church supposedly welcomes everyone, but continues to hide abusive priests and continues to reject women in ministry.
3
The Anglican/Episcopal Church is Completely inclusive.
according to the article,the main opposition is from african and european nations.
perhaps american progressive ideas, are not welcome in other settings.
1
This is all so sad to any BELIEVER who has read or been a part of this process. What saddens me is that so many in our nation and the Church have compromised in the name of religion, policy and entitlement, so called rights and privileges . Isn't God's message clear for all and unchanging, period? My understanding of His word is that he does not compromise nor adapt to suit preferences of one group or another. He does not give a set of standards to one group and then a different set for another. He does not and will not change nor does He need to do so. He's God! In my understanding of His word, He does not "call" people to His ministry who will compromise His Word. What would it say about Him if He did so? It would make Him to be a liar, and we all know who is the author of that.
Matthew 12:24-28 is clear and relevant about a house divided. The Church is so divided, as is our nation. I pray that God will have mercy on His "Church" regardless of name and that His Spirit will sweep this great land and bring healing and revival to all of us! We need to unite, not divide, forgive and receive forgiveness. May God bless us and have mercy on us all.
1
No matter which religion or denomination you consider, each, as practiced, has serious objectionable policies and practices carried out by people who treat others in an uncaring, unloving way. If you insist upon believing in God, go it alone. I am sure God will understand and will still listen, and you can spend your time and money on things you know are worthwhile.
1
Churches are free to make rules as they wish; congregants are free to take their participation and money elsewhere. The tragedy to me is that most of our institutional churches cannot acknowledge that the world has changed in 2000 years. And yet many churches were born out of the need for change in those 2000 years, and will continue to do so. In the meantime in the US, many mainline Protestant churches, and the Catholic Church continue to bleed young people. When there are fewer weddings, baptisms, and confirmation classes, and funerals outnumber all of those, churches die.
2
I am a United Methodist, and today I am ashamed of my denomination. Instead of proclaiming Christ's love, it it proclaims prejudice, fear, and hate. If my conference splits from the United Methodist Church, I may remain where I am. Otherwise, I will be looking for a church that is more Christian than the UMC. Either way, I will no longer be a United Methodist.
4
My thoughts also.
As a modereate to liberal United Methodist, I watched in horror as the Traditional plan passed yesterday in St.Louis. I watched online from my home here in Oregon, USA. I have turned in my letter of resignation from the denomination. I emailed a copy of the letter to my pastor and church leadership minutes after the vote. For me there is no way forward. I am embarassed and horrified by the actions of my now former church.
103
@Michael Wild Why would you attend church if you are against what the Bible says. The church never should have even voted on this topic because it is wrong according to the Bible
6
@Michael Wild Good for you. These Methodists are haters and I do not understand how anyone can still be part of this religious group.
4
@Michael Wild I am sad for you and also support your decision. I left the UMC many years ago now, largely spurred by this topic. (I am not LGBTQ but several friends are.) Methodism runs deep in my family history, even including a circuit rider. The slogan of Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors is completely now defunct. A sad day for the UMC. As to the pastor's comment about focusing less on "social issues," maybe he needs to be reminded that the UMC has that wonderful document, titled The Social Principles, offering excellent guidance. Maybe they'll get rid of that, too.
6
I left the UMC many years ago, in part because of such bigotry. Never regretted the decision.
2
I am an Evangelical Lutheran Church in America pastor and a survivor of our sex wars of the past decade. I too have evolved my position from a "The plumbing does not fit" view of the consummation of marriage to this new, "Sexuality is a private and personal issue and none of my business as long as it is not abusive or exploitative." There are many happy sexless marriages and when we equate marriage with physical sex. we demean the commitment, bond and intimacy of the intent of marriage. If we take sex out of marriage, the issue goes away. Let sexuality be between someone and their beliefs about God and what it means to be a human being.
3
I do not condemn the LGBTQ movement nor do I condemn the Methodist’s Church’s decision. Many people are not completely comfortable with the ideas that the LGBTQ represents as mainstream and universally acceptable. Obviously two opposing value systems and who to judge which is correct? In the end? I suppose God.
M,
Just a thought: if LGBTQ people number 4.5 percent of the earth’s population, when will their marriages ever be mainstream? That doesn’t make them less meaningful in society. Are you confusing mainstream (popularity) with meaning or utility?
Put another way: A same sex marriage delivers the same social benefit as a hetero marriage. There are just fewer of them: therefore, they are not mainstream by definition.
At this point, it seems the UMC will be split into two denominations : the United Methodist Church will be inclusive and allow people to be who they are. The Methodist Church will be exclusive (even though Jesus never preached any kind of exclusivity),and will not be able to keep the word "United" without provoking ridicule for their hypocrisy.
1
You have it reversed. The groups that approved the Traditional plan are not going anywhere. If the groups supporting the defeated LGBT proposal want to leave, that action will be their decision.
@Michael Blazin And just to be clear, the large liberal (and solvent) churches will leave, with their money and assets, and the small mostly non-solvent conservative churches will be left in the UMC trying to support the even less solvent african/asian churches.
After the evidence of how prevalent sexual abuse has been among the gay clergy in the Catholic church it would have been a sin to not block gays from the clergy. If a church wants to allow homosexuals to be ordained clergy that is their choice but they should NOT call themselves Christian. Christianity makes it clear a foundational belief is thatacting upon homosexual urges is sinful in the eyes of God. One certainly does not have to agree with this belief but if one does not then one is not actually a Christian.
1
@Steve W Sexual abuse in the catholic church has nothing to do with gayness and everything to do with pedophilia. Two different things. And the bible is crystal clear about divorce and the place of women in the church and society (silent property) also.
1
As an Episcopalian, a church that has struggled with this issue for years, I know that how Scripture is understood is a huge part of the debate. My church eventually came to the conclusion that scripture should be read in historical context, and not literally. That means that it is important to take into account the circumstances and challenges facing the people for whom the scripture was written. In so far as the contemporary church has a similar circumstance, then it is appropriate to use the "plain" meaning as a guide. The Bible is the product of human beings who found God active in their lives and helpful in their problems. Some of those problems are no longer issues for 21st century followers of the Judeo-Christian tradition. We ignore or reject most of the regulations found in Leviticus without feeling imperiled. How about the Methodists doing what the Episcopalians did: assign some of their best minds to look at the scriptures again from more than one perspective, and to make the results of that study available to all members so that in each church an informed conversation may be held, leading to a more widely-embraced understanding of the command of Jesus to love one another as well as the restrictions seemingly imposed in both New and Old Testament writings?
3
Although I think they are wrong they are certainly entitled to thier opinion and rules it is thier church after all. The choice now becomes weather you want to stay in the UMC as is, or leave. I made that choice and left the catholic church when thier hypocricy became to much to bear. I believe the Higher Power loves all creatures whatever thier proclivities may be.
31
Statements like "the Higher Power loves all creatures whatever their proclivities may be" are saccharine nonsense. The sexual abuse all around furnishes ample evidence that people can't express every instinct and desire. There is a transcendent morality. There is no escaping that fact.
4
53 to 47 is fairly close. It suggests a deep split within the denomination. It also suggests that, knwing the issue would come to a vote, some congregations made sure their delegates would vote
Walked away from church attendance at my from birth Methodist Church 14 years ago because of the stance against gay clergy members and same-sex marriage. If there is a formal break, I would be willing to attend the "new" Methodist Church that would fully accept our LBGT brothers and sisters and afford them and the people they love the same that is offered to the straight community. We are all human beings, created in God's image despite the people in this world who attempt to deny that fact which goes against their own stated concept of God as being the creator of all things.
5
The Methodist hierarchy has decided to split their church, although they don’t think so. It is not possible to devote oneself to a religious institution that does not square with your conscience. And no baloney about revering some members but excluding them from the hierarchy can hide simple hypocrisy.
1
@John Brews ✅✅ The President of the Council of Bishops was interviewed on NPR this morning. He said the bishops were in favor of the inclusive "One Church" plan that welcomed the LGBTQ community. It isn't the hierarchy, at least the American branch's hierarchy. He said the One Church plan failed by only 27-28 votes, from the more conservative Methodists on other continents. He said that the Methodist church is democratic and the decision was based on the majority vote.
Wow! Last I checked, the message of Jesus was to be inclusive and welcoming, get this: to SINNERS, which we all are!
We are supposed to welcome everyone and judge not, lest ye be judged.
If the church does split over this, I would head over to the non-judgmental, inclusive branch that exudes Love.
2
I split with religion in my early 20's and have never looked back. The guidelines in many denominations seemed obscure with underlying division and many unanswered questions. Free from from man-made dictates allowed me to accept that peace can only come from acceptance. No religion offers that in reality.
3
I have many friends, neighbors, and relatives who are gay and trans, including one of my children. There is no difference between people based on who they chose as life partners, and how view themselves. We're just humans. I grew up in UMC, and I'm sad to see the organization vote so ignorantly. But an organization is not the same as the individuals in it. Thank you to the individuals who voted against this ridiculous ban, and who see clearly that we're all children of the same spirit. Peace be with you as you find a better way forward.
5
Susan, during the Protestant Reformation people were burned for believing that Scripture is the only thing that can bind our conscience. There just isn't any support in Scripture to say that homosexual acts are anything but sinful. It is knowledge of Scripture and what it teaches that moves Christians to lament homosexual acts and to exclude their acceptance from a church body, not ignorance. People in 16th century Europe died to have Scripture alone bind their beliefs and nothing else.
The way to love those tempted to homosexual acts is not to tell them that they were made that way. It is to accept them as people made in God's image and to teach them the gospel of saving grace. This is how Jesus dealt with adulterers, the rich and proud, violent revolutionaries, and religious legalists. The gospel of grace and not accomodation for sin. Homosexual acts are an offense to God like all sin. To pretend otherwise is to be unloving. Repenting of all sin builds relationship with God. Telling people that they can give themselves over to sin only keeps them from a right relationship with God. Who would want that?
3
Maybe, just maybe, the collective wisdom of a tribe of desert goatherders 4000 years ago is actually not a flawless blueprint for life in an inclusive and welcoming society.
5
@Nathan Howell Homosexuality is not a sin, it is a state of being how God made you. To cut off people who are not like you is sin.
There will be a schism in the UMC and the Church triumph will be worse off.
“Matt Miofsky, 41, leads one of the fastest growing United Methodist churches in the country, called The Gathering in St. Louis.
“I want people to know that The Gathering, and a lot of churches like it all over the country, want to welcome L.G.B.T.Q. people,” he said. “We are going to pursue a fully inclusive vision for ministry”
Then perhaps Mr. Miofsky should find a new denomination.
2
Surely God knows what God wants. Moses had a direct pipeline to the corner office, as I learned growing up. God told him what to say, where to go, what to do, and gave him the 10 Commandments, not once, but twice. Moses didn't have to wonder what God wanted.
So where is God's guidance to the faithful now? Why has God stopped talking to humanity? Because it's 5,000 years later, and fairy tales born of superstition, ignorance and illiteracy no longer seem persuasive?
What do United Methodists care most about? What God wants, or how human beings should relate to each other in a compassionate and respectful way? If one focuses on the second issue, why does the first even matter?
Organized religion- the Achilles heel of the human brain.
11
God wants people to be compassionate towards each other because they firstly fear God. I would urge you to actually read Jesus words in the gospels if you want to see how his love and his righteousness are held together in a way which ours often is not. Jesus protects an adultering woman from stoning and then says to her afterwards, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more." John 8:11
He lets her know that her adultery is wrong, tells her to leave it behind, protects her from condemning crowds, and shows her his honest care for her all at the same time. This is what is our churches should be doing. It is not easy, and it is not done by condemning others because of their sin or just telling everyone they are ok and thus ignoring their sin.
And Jesus resurrection is not a fairy tell. There is ample evidence for it. If he really came back from the dead, this among other things shows he is God and we should listen to him. Have you ever considered if he really did come back come back from the dead, what that means about who he says he is?
2
@Nathan Howell
"God wants people to be compassionate towards each other because they firstly fear God." So our kindness to each is rooted in fear? Of a god? You can't be serious (although I suspect you are). And Jesus "is" God? All this time I heard he was the son. Remember Mary? Who had a son? The son of God?
BTW, Jesus's "words" were not transcribed by some court reporter while he spoke. Some faint echo of them, perhaps, was written down many decades later. Imagine if the first time someone wrote about Lincoln's Gettysburg Address was 50-100 years later. Think we'd have any clue what Lincoln actually said?
Reincarnation is kind of a big deal. If Jesus really did come back from the dead, why wasn't it reported throughout the known world? Carry on and enjoy your First Amendment freedoms. Freedoms created by men, not gods.
I hope many of those who feel marginalized and hurt as a result of this decision will step back and come to the realization that organized religion is toxic superstition.
Hitchens was right: Religion poisons everything.
7
Christians use the book of Leviticus in the bible to condemn gays.
What else is in Leviticus?
What? You don’t know?
Read it.
You will see how hateful these Christians are for cherrypicking. Which their own god condemns in the same bible.
8
I have to say...I was for the "One Church Plan" until I watched Tuesday's proceedings on the internet LiveStream. The pro-LGBT "scorched Earth" tactics of shrill threats, near hysteria, groundless accusations of vote-buying, and one pointless poison-pill amendment after another in an attempt to run out the clock really turned me off and changed my mind. At the end of the day I was glad the Traditional Plan passed. We really don't need such people in positions of leadership in the Methodist Church. I am convinced they don't want inclusion and tolerance, they want complete capitulation. For someone on the fence such as myself, it sure appears the pro-LGBT crowd isn't doing themselves any favors by their behavior.
5
@Jeff Kelley When and if you are ever similarly threatened, as are LGBT people by this vote, perhaps you will better understand the passion behind the campaign.
7
I really enjoy Elaine Pagel's work "Adam Eve and the Serpent" (1989) about how the sexual morals of the 3rd century Christians led to peace and defined what it meant to be a Christian.
Prior to this movement, a king could rape as many women as he wanted and there was a general feeling of sexual free for all of the pagan communities. The change in sexual behavior was a critical element that led to peace and a sense of equality among people.
We are now heading more toward a sexual free for all, which creates animosity, alienation, and loneliness as it is unclear what the rules are. I was pleasantly surprised when I read this decision. One Christian church finally agrees that it actually believes what the bible says.
5
...sent out challenge because the timing and charitas may have been right...
busted- turned right back to the comfortable
threw in a few ancient quotes to alleviate their consciences
and again a turn to the past.
Brave souls came out to demonstrate- we are your neighbors we are your friends-
but you turned away from us.
1
Well, the UMC could split three ways. The current UMC represents a merger off the Methodist Church South, the Methodist Church (from the North) and the United Bretheren.
The UMC. Could easily fall back apart into those three units, although I think most of the old Bretheren Churches are in the North.
It is interesting that the conservatives won the vote in alliance with the representatives from African Methodism. African nglicans are quite conservative, too.
1
In this day and age, imagine, another church grappling over an issue that is fundamentally a human rights issue.
There is a reason so much of organized religion is becoming irrelevant. So many of them are so un-Christian.
6
I am a retired United Methodist Clergy and was at the conference as part of the press to describe what I saw. This was a hostile takeover, very similar to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Church in the late 1980s. Many fine and decent people are being badly hurt because of a raw power grab on the part of a minority of US pastors who put the African delegates in their well-funded pockets. There is massive grief today and yes, the church will split. But real traditional Methodism is imbued with gracious love and hospitality and that movement will rise again.
16
What does a Church exist for? To serve God and live by his commands, or is it a smorgasbord of diluted teachings designed to validate the desires and impulses of humankind? Matthew 15:9 tells us "It is in vain they keep worshipping me, because they teach the doctrines of men as commands." If we acknowledge that God is God, then we need to recognize he is capable of giving us clear direction of what he expects. That direction exists in the form of his Word... The Bible. Homosexuality in all forms is prohibited in the Bible. If a Church purports to be about representing God on earth it MUST oppose the pressures to teach the doctrines of men. God had his reasons. He is infinitely more intelligent than we are. He obviously had his reasons for providing rules for us to live by.
7
@Lou So many amateur theologians out there think they know what is taught in the Bible. It must be nice to be so smug in your knowledge.
5
@Lou It also prohibits the eating of shell fish such as shrimp. Why do you not want the church to enforce that rule, or do you?
3
@Lou
If homosexuality is prohibited by God (your term), then why does it exist in almost all higher level (more complex) life forms? Why can't you follow your own Rabbi and be tolerant of differences? Intolerance repelled him: "Even as you do this (persecute) even the least of these my brethren, you do it unto me".
5
Last time I checked there was a place for everyone in God’s universe, Jesus loved everyone and judge not, lest ye be judged.
Further, I don’t ever remember making a choice to be heterosexual, God made me this way. If I didn’t choose, why do so many hate-mongering so-called Christians judge homosexuals as wrong? No one chooses their sexuality, they are born that way. How can God be wrong? God loves all his children, which means he loves the LGBTQ ones as well.
13
@Buttons Cornell I sign I've seen a few times over the years that always makes me laugh. "if God hates gays, why did he make us so cute?" (I've replaced gay with the original word that's not so pleasant)
2
They will wither and become even more irrelevant. I won’t miss them, but I feel sorry for people who made the mistake of investing themselves in this dying church.
8
Ah, no doubt from Jesus's lips to their ears. Will it now be a requirement to wear MAGA caps to church services? Why not a new name: "United-But-Only-In-The-Right-Way-Misanthropic Church"? Truth in Advertising, ye Holy People!
8
Christianity lost its direction centuries ago. Today, in sermons in virtually all Christian Churches, you hear only of the writings of St. Paul. Christ and his message are reserved for the C&E Christians - those that come on Christmas and Easter. The basic message of Jesus has been thrown out with the baptismal water. Love is no long the message. Doing unto others is no longer the message. The Methodist, whom I thought was the last bastion of hope in Christianity is in line with the other churches that eliminate those with whom they are in disagreement from their clergy and membership. One does not really have to wonder why there are as many NONES (those that are not affiliated with any sect of Christianity) as there are so called "professed Christians.
What Christianity needs is another Martin Luther and another reformation to bring the church back to the teachings of Christ.
9
If members are serious about civil and human rights - and I think many of them are - it's time to branch off into a new church, where all are welcome. Or, they can join the United Church of Christ, which was the first denomination to ordain an openly gay minister in 1972. Nearly 200 years prior to that, they ordained the nation's first African American clergy in 1785 - Lemuel Hayes.
6
Securing their fate as yet another church in decline.
3
Hot off the presses! X'tian bigots, representing .0016 of global population, officially codify Judgement (Did they fall asleep during that "judge not, etc." lesson?), thus accomplishing the rare perfecta of telling their jesus to take a hike while driving off even more of their members.
In a related story, not surprisingly, "…the nation is becoming increasingly less christian".
7
The sad news is that these patriarchal religions will never really be equitable. They are based upon an out of date myth. Hopefully, some people will being to understand that they can live with a personal mysticism and shared community without these corrupt "leaders" and "intermediaries to to g-d". Meanwhile we get to read daily news about problems about the corruption and hyposcracy inherent in all of these patriarchal religions from the Catholic Church to the Taliban to the Southern baptists to the Orthodox Jews. People need to wake up and grow up!
8
Congratulations to the membership who affirmed their position on homosexual marriage. Let the opposing side form their own church to embody their sexual preference.
2
@Jacob handelsman
I think that's what we are going to do.
1
@Jacob handelsman
The remaining, intolerant and singularly un-"Christian" church, will be much the poorer for it.
Wither and be dispersed upon the wind with all the other dead and dying anachronisms of ancient mythology and superstition.
2
@Jacob handelsmanIt’s not about forming a church for “their sexual preference”. It’s about forming a church that is open to all of God’s people and recognizing that God has created humans who are gay as well as straight. It’s about forming a church that follows the teachings of Jesus, which never distinguished between people based on their gender or sexuality.
3
The second half of this article is where the truth lies. Follow the money.
7
A religious belief that drives a wedge between you and your fellow family members is in my mind is the work of the devil. Not God.
Being closer to God brings us CLOSER to our fellow humans. Our family.
12
The left in America seems intent on removing "God" from our daily lives. This jives with government taking over our rights.
Inalienable rights can only come from God and this is in obvious affront to those who want to manage all of our rights.
2
@Charles Segal This has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with human beings making a choice to hurt one another. It's a very similar situation to the Civil War era debate on slavery, where many churches twisted scripture to support their ignorant views.
17
@Charles Segal
It “jives,” does it? Actually, you may have gotten that part right - you certainly offer some “jive talk” here.
And I have great difficulty understanding how anyone’s rights are being taken over or “managed” by those who simply want to guarantee the rights of others to function as co-equals, without regard to their gender, race, sexual orientation, etc.
Maybe you’re just more “enlightened” than I. But I seriously doubt it.
I have now read most of the comments and am concerned that so many people seem to condemn the entire UMC for the vote to continue a ban on same-sex marriage in the UMC. Let's be clear about that vote. Over 70% of the U.S. delegates voted for the One Church plan which would allow each church to make its own decision about same-sex marriage and the ordination of gay clergy. It was primarily because of the African delegates (over 40% of the total delegates), most of whom oppose same-sex marriage, that the One Church plan failed.
14
@RF
Then the formation of a UMC-America seems to be the next logical step.
2
@John I agree.
1
It appears older folks, many who rarely meet anyone much different than themselves, are attempting to drive while only looking in the rear view mirror.
9
As a child, I was taught that Christians live according to the teachings of Christ i.e. the New Testament. Jesus did not express an opinion on sexuality. He told us to love one another, not judge one another. My favorite quote is "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
The prohibitions regarding sexuality are rooted in the Old Testament. While the New Testament gives us a loving God, the Old Testament gives us an angry, vengeful one. As the aging membership of the Methodist Church passes away, so will the Church itself if it continues to cling to the Old Testament teachings.
16
Speaking to a crowd which wanted to test his fidelity to God's law, Jesus said the Greatest Commandment was "love God with your whole mind and heart"; and the second was LIKE it: " Love your neighbor as yourself". Then he told the crowd about the good Samaritan, a class of people despised by Jesus' "faithful" listeners. In other words, "Love your neighbor, no exceptions".
The point of Jesus' teaching is that the Greatest Commandment is the MEASURE of all the rest of God's commandments.
To me, this means God, the Creator, created variety in every aspect of life, including human sexuality, and we are to recognize and accept it. Also, that God demands social justice in all our communities.
12
@Jeannetta Wilson
Actually, Jesus started that answer by saying
”.....Hear O Israel, thous shall love the Lord the God....etc....”.
@Jeannetta Wilson
And yours is an absolutely “Christian” attitude, imho.
Exactly what Christian Teaching is against homosexuality? In the Old Testament such teachings can be found, but I have never found such in the New Testament. Jesus seems to have been a pretty tolerant guy.
8
Not your nice middle of the road Methodists after all. They’re now the Southern Bapthodists.
7
When I became a man I put away childish things.... like beliefs in Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Good Fairy and ever knowing all powerful gods or god. Religion and conservatives are so often cloaks for bigotry and ignorance, much as the adherents to religions' kin, superstition.
13
Why should I care who someone else marries?
10
Another nail in the coffin of organized religion. The decline in the numbers of Americans with church affiliations is undeniable. Keep excluding people and hasten your demise.
9
It took eight beliefs to unite the Methodist church - it took one to divide it
1
For those who need a place to worship, the Episcopal and Evangelical Lutheran churches well come all of God's children into their communities.
10
A definite downside in globalization is the forced inclusion of what we in the west see as backwards, hateful and ignorant attitudes. Its really sad that the majority of inclusionary American methodists must now live by the attitudes of a less enlightened global community. Perhaps a new field of mission work can be to teach the values of accepting and welcoming of LGBTQ congregants and citizens, and why these values should matters to Christians.
6
"God" made homosexuality, if she made anything. To believe otherwise is to believe that people "choose" to incur abuse and discrimination (to what gain?). Gays are 'born that way' in every sense.
Given that "God" produced homosexuality, those who claim to love/worship this First Cause must embrace this work as they do all Her works.
6
Does anyone actually read the Bible? It clearly condemns homosexuality. One of the many reasons I left years ago. The mental gymnastics people use in order to stay with their congregations is astounding.
2
@GAonMyMind It also condemns Divorce, and orders me to kill my disobedient children, and encourages me to marry as many young teen virgins as I can afford to buy.
9
For Methodists and other Christians who are broken-hearted by a lack of inclusion the United Church of Christ welcomes you. We proclaim: "No Matter Who You Are Or Where You Are On Life's Journey, You're Welcome Here"
5
Growth for mainline Protestant churches is almost evclsuively in Africa. Africans are against homosexual marriage and ordination. They are understandably driving the problem since they represent the future.
2
Not a Methodist or an apologist for anyone as I am an agnostic, but the Bible repeatedly inveighs against homosexual conduct. I do not see why anyone in the GLBTQ community would so desperately want to join a faith community that teaches that the sexual orientation they were born with is a sin.
I am quite aware of modern attempts to explain away the positions outlined in the Bible, but it is quite plain for anyone to see.
5
They're certainly entitled to their views ... and they are entitled to be taxed ... homophobia is not an excuse for avoiding taxation ...
9
"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion."- Abraham Lincoln.
7
Go to the Episcopal Church. They welcome us and unfortunately lost significant membership when they voted to accept us. Put your money where the love is.
6
@Gary Trout My SO's father is an episcopal priest and has married more gay couples than straight in the past year. They really are by and large putting their money where their mouth is on lgbtqa+ issues. That's also why they have an anti-gay protestor outside most Sundays :)
1
The "practice" of homosexuality? The "PRACTICE"???
Shows you how out of touch this church is. Look for Methodists to be extinct, in the dustbin of history a hundred years from now.
Jesus wept.
4
Civil disobedience is the order of the day. The United Methodist Church has no police force with which to enforce their judgments, so ignore them. The church's ownership position in local properties might allow them to shutter misbehaving churches, but that will only hasten the demise of the national church organization as it hollows out much needed financial support and the very identity of the Methodist church, supposedly embodying God's love but instead overly focus on their idolized god's hatred and exclusion of the LGBTQ community.
62
I am not a Methodist. What Methodists choose to believe in is their business, not that of non-Methodists.
What Islam believes in is the choice of Muslims, not non-Muslims.
But if Muslims issued a world wide statement affirming a ban on homosexuality, would any of the non-Muslim progressives posting on this article condemn Muslims I won't hold my breath waiting for that.
Also, as the article points out, the Methodists have reached out to citizens of Africa as part of their inclusiveness and diversity.
But with this diversity, you get a population that does not approve of homosexuality. That's what happens with diversity folks: you get opinions that differ from yours.
Live with it.
41
@Kevin O'Reilly
I Am a Methodist. I have lived in the same neighborhood with gay people, I work with gay people, members of my own family are gay, members of my Church (Stockbridge FUMC) are mostly likely gay (although I don't go around asking people their sexual preferences.) I love them all. I will continue to treat them all with kindness and respect. I have no intentions of kicking anybody out of our church. Church is a place where sinners need to be so they can grow in their relationship with Jesus Christ. But the church can NEVER condone any sin. That is not love; it's permissiveness. Homosexuality is a sin. Same-sex marriage is incompatible with the Bible. Racism, selfishness, sexual abuse are also all sins. The church should NEVER condone any sin. Yes, many southern churches condoned slavery and racism and they were absolutely wrong to do so--or to continue to do so. The whole point of Christianity is this-- We are ALL sinners who need God's forgiveness of our sins-- which God freely offers to all if we place our faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross and His resurrection. But we don't present ourselves to God by telling Him we get to pick-and-choose which human failings WE consider sin. God has already spoken in His Word-- His whole Word studied in context-- not just the passages we agree with.
10
@Kevin O'Reilly
Bang on. Exactly.
4
@Kevin O'Reilly
A difference of opinion on things like where the church spends its money, the structure of services, or whether pistachio ice cream is good or awful is one thing. I'm fine leaving that to the church.
Whether a whole class of people should be treated with basic decency like actual human beings as opposed to being relegated to second class status? That resonates throughout the rest of society and we absolutely get to condemn that kind of injustice and cruelty.
Discrimination does not fall under the umbrella of diversity.
22
The Methodist Church is free to vote any way they want on this issue and they have. There is nothing hateful, cruel or disgusting in it. It is a disagreement about changing a basic and long standing tenet of the Methodist Church. At least for the Americans, we live in a nation where freedom of Assembly and freedom of Religion are enshrined in law and those opposed to the vote can form their own religion. That's is exactly what they should do, it does not provide the insta-fix but it might just win over in the long run.
5
It's sad day for all Methodist like myself who thought we could be better.
6
According to the bible gluttony is a sin, a real one, a deadly one. Maybe those church elders in the picture should recuse themselves from their church, judging from the pictures. I’m joking, but somehow I’m also not.
8
Ahhhhh...the ol’ “we need to procreate and gays can’t do that” excuse. So do they kick out every heterosexual couple that can’t bear children? Has no one heard of adoption? Or fostering?
Enjoy your extinction. Median age of 57 is definitely showing in this thought process.
It seriously feels like we should all be boarding the Mayflower for the New World.
6
An amusing statement from a failing organization.
4
How can you believe you are spreading the Good Word while driving off large fractions of your members? It's anti-Evangelization.
6
So sad that churches lose sight of what their true meaning and mission should be. So sad that so many Christians are so unChristlike.
4
It's always striking when so-called Christians invoke a god of love and acceptance to justify their hate and rejection of others.
“I like your Christ. Christians, not so much. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” – M. Gandhi
“Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it.” – George Bernard Shaw
4
A 23 billion dollar pension fund. Billion, with a B. Giving up all you have to follow Jesus, depending on God to provide, as he takes care of the birds......Did I miss the part where Jesus passed around a collection plate? Stored up great wealth, hired investment advisors, built giant buildings? Organized religion’s hypocrisy has so many facets, this latest is just another one.
Next Sunday, toss in a fresh loaf of bread, a fish, in the collection plate. Then go outside and look at what true wonders God created.
10
@Jo Williams - Passeth thy days in the Church of Glorious Nature!
Upholding bigotry and perpetuating ignorance...is it any wonder that most young people want nothing to do with organized religion? May it soon become a thing of the past.
5
@Baruch And then the "state' can manage our rights? I wouldn't mention this to those inalienable rights folks.
@Charles Segal
I didn't say religion would be forbidden. Let me clarify. I hope humanity matures enough to make religion obsolete in the near future, since religion is a manifestation of immaturity.
Time to stop putting it off and finally get around to resigning my church membership.
4
The Episcopal church was created because the Pope would not let the king of England re-marry, correct?
And the Episcopal church has been very welcoming to gays.
So in a few hundred years there will be a nice, large, New Methodist church, and a shriveled, fading Old Methodist church that still hates gays.
3
The new Methodist Church Slogan is
Black Hearts, Closed Minds and Closed Doors.
4
Where is the love for their fellow human beings?
4
Other religions will take it up so this vote is ridiculous.
2
If we’re against against gay rights and for abortion we’re split whether we formally split or not - losing our status as nonsplit May hurt us - we were once proud of the word United in our title - I guess that shingle will def come down
1
Organized religion finds yet another way to discourage participation.
6
How backward. If Christianity's biggest tenets is love your neighbour. Then this is not Christianity. This is politics. Love is Love. Undeniable.
8
Bigotry, in the name of religion and deeply held spiritual beliefs, is called bigotry.
7
You can love a person and not support them... that concept is pretty simple. If you want to be/are homosexual that's fine, if another does not support that as it relates to "our" faith accept it and move on. Also stop that spreading of "GOD made us this way." GOD created life and gave man free will, concept is straight-forward.
4
@123abc. Well said
@123abc
If i understand you, by your citing "free will" you believe gay people can change. I believe you are factually
wrong. But I don't care. Why should gays change their orientation to something they don't want to be?
2
In ostracizing those who are different from them, these people are creating God in their own image rather than the other way around.
11
Why does anyone care? Yet another organized religion behaving in a bigoted fashion? Shocking... What shocks me is how those that disagree with these bigoted views stay with these churches and chose to ignore what they know is wrong. It is the weakness of these people that allows the perpetuation of the bigotry. Meanwhile society smiles and nods understandingly because well, it’s religion, the third rail in any debate. I used to believe in Santa Clause. Then I grew up and became an adult. Grow up.
9
Its sad in a way to see these institutions, which helped make America what it is, commuting suicide.
Its more sad seeing them do it because they refuse to honor their own founding premises.
Ah well.
3
It seems that that Christian charity is weakening. Well, mythologies rise and fall just as civilizations rise and fall.
6
It sounds like the Methodists are longer “United.” What will they call their two divisions now? The “Once United Methodist Church” and the “United against Homosexuality Church?”
9
"God grant me the serenity. To accept the things I cannot change; Courage to change the things I can; And wisdom to know the difference."
There are plenty of churches that embrace diversity. Join one. Isn't that a win-win?
Or, instead of continuing to fight for change against an inflexible stagnant (or regressive) institution, how about creating what you want, creating alternatives.
6
The hardest teaching to follow is; "Love thy Neighbor."
7
Hard to believe that this gaggle of bigots are more extreme in their views of weak and vulnerable people than even Donald Trump who vocally opposes doing anything to injure LGBTQ people.
Require these "leaders" to read Dr. Kings "Letter From A Birmingham Jail," and explain how their action square with the cause of human rights.
Only fools would damage the relationship with hallowed institutions like Duke and Emory.
How about reexamining the church's exemption from taxation? Maybe the time is at hand.
7
A church should have no position on homosexuals. It should accept all comers and focus on matters of spirituality. Any opinion on gays is actually a political opinion and who needs that?
9
Hateful, cruel, disgusting. Does the UMC like having these words used to describe their church? Is this what it means to be Christ-like? Do they really think that Jesus, who loved everyone and excluded no-one, would have done this to anyone?
14
@Ann I think your language is uncalled for. ALL United Methodists don't fit into that description. The decision to oppose same-sex marriage passed 53 to 47 percent. Unfortunately, over 40% of the voting delegates were from Africa and most, if not all, of them oppose same-sex marriage. If it had been up to the U.S. delegates, the proposal to allow each church to determine its policy would have passed. So don't condemn us all.
4
Jesus had a lot of harsh words for a lot of people. He was compassionate towards individual sinners but he always lead them towards a new way of living. He didn't leave them in the situation he found them in. You don't need a savior to tell you that you're fine just the way you are. He was angry at those individuals and institutions who led people into sin. Read the gospels. Don't just keep repeating what everyone else says they say.
3
@ RF - I get what you’re saying and you and I know the difference, but this is the face The UMC put out to the rest of the world, this is our official stance. That opens us up to criticism. As one of the speakers yesterday warned, people will still violate the rules and there will be trials and they will be on the news. A slim majority decided they’re ok with that. Shameful.
While the article notes the conservative bent of the global (non-US) delegates, it does not call out that 3/4 of US delegates voted for the One Church (accepting) plan, and against the Traditional (excluding) plan. That's the face of the US UMC.
I, like most other methodists I know, am tired of giving my LGBTQ brethren crumbs of inclusion and telling them they should be grateful and full. I've disagreed with church policies and direction before (most people have) -- but this is a deal breaker.
15
@V Correction: 2/3 of us delegates voted for the One Church (accepting) plan. Same point though.
Those who voted for the Traditional Plan have made God into THEIR image, not the other way around.
18
Once more, the Methodists have shot themselves in the foot. I doubt they will ever learn. I was raised in the Methodist church, when it was, in my small town, the Methodist Church, South. Some of them in that church still act as if it were the Methodist Church, South. I left them 60 years ago, and have enjoyed the love of the Episcopal church ever since.
9
@Tom Cotner You left out one important detail. The Episcopal Church went through the same type of turmoil just a few years ago over having a gay Bishop and the ordination of a female. At least in parts of Texas, this caused a split and now we have the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church.
2
@Tom Cotner
So glad to hear that my church of 64 years has welcomed you. Thanks Be to God!
1. If the church is not concerned with "social issues", what good is it? I understand this vote would not have happened if the UMC were not so bent on the U. Time to uncouple (or become Episcopalians).
4
Religion is increasingly irrelevant to Americans as evidenced by the decline in church membership and attendance over the years. And decisions like this help to hasten the demise of religion. Still, such a slow and painful demise, but inevitable in the next generation or so.
16
Time to splinter off if your a dissenter. Protestants have been doing the ideological splinter dance since the days of Luther and Calvin- what's one more new church group on franchise row. New Dawn Methodists anybody?
9
The degree to which some people concern themselves with other people's sexuality seems pathological. As James Carville said "I was against gay marriage until I realized I didn't have to get one. All these people trying to dictate the sexuality of others should mind their own business and consider getting a life even if they have to just rent one.
36
The church is committing suicide. It’s odd how most aspects of our living society evolve, starting with science of course but also social mores, culture, etc. And then there’s institutionalize religion!
8
A mentor of mine said “I don’t go where I’m not wanted.” It seems to me that the Methodists should carefully consider following that philosophy.
It’s unlikely that the Methodists splitting into two separate organizations will be fatal to the denomination, certainly no more so than the Episcopalian Church breaking from the Roman Catholic Church. If they can weather that storm, I don’t see a reason that the Methodists can’t also.
10
Is there a method to the Methodists madness? Trying to reduce the size of their congregations and ignore the teachings of Jesus, perhaps?
13
Marina Yugay (oh, the irony of that surname!), from Russia, has to wake up. She claims that, 'We do need to praise God and multiply...' Does she not realize that, world-wide, there has been entirely too much multiplication, and that it's time for a little subtraction?
p.
7
Jesus taught that when a man divorces his wife and marries another, he is an adulterer. The UMC calls this a Christian Marriage. In sum, the UMC asserts adultery is morally superior to a same gender relationship. That pretty much sums up this debate.
10
@JohnMcFeely - Actually the biblical quote is " But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." You twisted a quote used to oppose same sex marriage and by some, to advocate for men to have more than one wife.
2
@mkm The point is the same. Divorce is accepted and homosexuality isn't. A position which has no biblical basis. At least Catholics are consistent.
3
The vote really doesn't change much. It is a don't ask, don't tell. Gays are welcomed, just not to be married or be openly gay in the pulpit. While the churches are in decline, judging is not. Unitarians and Quakers are out there with open arms.
5
In Houston, in the 80’ s or 90’s, the Methodist (?) bishop died of AIDS acquired from a gay guy. He was married, but she was not infected. He was a well-respected clergyman.
When people live their authentic truth, we not only get the best from them,there’s likelihood of collateral damage. I’d be gutted if I learned my husband was gay and had AIDS. I think most women would be.
Avoid sorrow. Be glad someone is called to serve.
4
And when the pews are empty and the plates are spare, Church Leaders:
Please don't lament the demise of Christianity in America. Too bad you didn't bother to read the part in the Bible when Jesus said "Don't judge others. Leave that to me."
I'm looking to reading about the launch of the Reformed Methodist Church in America.
Go for it!
15
@Tom Q
I'm right there. Would be delighted to be a member of the Reformed Methodist Church in America.
2
Homosexuality has existed in humanity since the beginning of the species. Scientists are discovering that it exists in animal species as well. What are the leaders of the no-longer United Methodists afraid of? What is the real issue here? Is it obedience to the leadership? Is it fear of men being pursued as sexual objects?
And by the way, ageism seems to be rampant in this discussion. Old doesn’t mean rigid. Get it right.
57
God tests people, He tests their love for others.
Many failed the test yesterday.
5
@C P Progressive
More likely, it is fear of losing the haters and bigots, either the mostly older, rigid types who live in the 1950's world, or more importantly, catering to those in the third world who are still living in the stone age, because that is one place where hate and fear and ignorance translates into people actually caring about religion. This is true in all churches, the Episcopal Church and Anglican church literally threw LGBT people under the bus to please the African bishops and some on South America, the Catholic Church is struggling to balance the power between Church and laeity to help stop abuse, and they likely will have no reform because African and Asian bishops refuse to share power; and the Methodists have a strong presence in the third world, too.
@C P Progressive Your argument that something has existed from the beginning of time so therefore should be accepted as the norm is ludicrous. Murder has existed since the second generation of mankind! But of course, I stand corrected as it is becoming the norm in abortion circles...but that's another subject entirely. My point is just because something has existed for eons doesn't make it right. Other arguments might have some validity, but that one flies in the face of logic on so many levels.
1
God's love extends to all people. God's salvation is for all sinners. For us Christians, God's word in the Bible, not your personal moral concept, defines sin.
However, this focus on the sins of LGBTQ people is unhealthy and unfair if we don't also examine the analogous sins of heterosexuals. Homosexual sex is sex outside of biblical marriage, and heterosexual sex outside of marriage is just as problematic in God's eyes. In focusing on this issue, some straight believers have become prideful, having forgotten about the logs in their own eyes.
11
Let’s also remember that the idea of one sin being worse than another is a human invention: to God, all sins are equally bad. And that Jesus set the bar too high for any human (if you look with lust upon another you are an adulterer: if you harbor anger toward another you are a murderer). We all need to worry about the beams in our own eyes, not the motes in others’...
1
@Izxu: "In God's eyes"? Does God need eyes?
Yes. One difference though. Adulterers don't have Adultery pride parades, national coming out days, and rainbow flags in order to proudly proclaim their sin for all to see. This openly thumbing their nose at God and rebelling against his standards is an arrogance that clearly sets this sin apart.
2
Doubling down on the 20th century. I had two Methodists in the inner circle of my family. They’ve both left in the past five years. WWJD? Not this.
5
It is a straightforward conversation sadly.
Protestant denominations were created to force Rome to accept the authority of Scripture exclusive of traditional religious creations with no basis in Scripture.
Sola scriptura means just that, submitting to the authority of the original Word and church founding.
That authority, that Word, that Book contains nothing that supports same-sex sex. In fact it contains the exact opposite.
So here is the conundrum: churches founded on the authority of Scripture would have to surrender their raison d’etre to embrace same-sex behavior. There is no justifiable “middle way”.
It’s not about hate. It’s about being true to their existence.
Not what you want to hear. But there it is.
6
By this logic...poligamy and slavery are acceptable, adulterers should be stoned, shellfish can't be eaten, etc. There are lots of "rules" that appear much more frequently in the Bible that we do not follow, so why should this one be different?
5
@Susan
Dietary restrictions were set aside by Jesus. The Bible does away with polygamy in the New Testament. And Jesus said not to stone an adulterer.
But he also said to a person he had forgiven of a sexual sin “go and sin no more.” He did not say “go and live into your authentic self.” Ever. We made that up ourselves.
And Scripture does not condone slavery, Jesus simply pointed out that if you had to sin to amend your station in life it was not worth it.
Sin was always the greatest enemy to him, followed by hypocrisy.
Always best to read the whole Bible if you are determined to use it to make s point.
As a former Methodist living in the country where it started, this just looks like backwards and retrograde thinking. Interestingly, the most religious people I know now are also members of the LBGT community. It is time for a new church. I wish them all the best for the new start. Leave the dinosaurs behind.
8
If one considers that over 40 percent of the voting delegates were from Africa, whose clergy almost unanimously oppose gay rights, the result is not surprising. Perhaps we should now take "United" out of our name.
8
Let's try an exercise in drive-by fundamentalism:
Matthew 5:32: "but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
Luke 16:18: "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
Matthew 19:9: "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Mark 10:10: "And in the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11. And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Somehow, these (the new covenant, in Jesus' own words) are subject to "biblical interpretation".
But Leviticus, inherent to the old (and superseded) covenant, is *not* subject to "biblical interpretation"?
A little maturity, please, even if inexpedient.
25
@Padonna And how about the command that a woman who commits adultery should be taken outside the city gates and stoned to death. Or how about Paul's instruction that a woman should remain silent in the church. Paul says very clearly that if a woman wants to know what happens in church, she should ask her husband. Are there people who really believe that?
11
@Padonna
In your drive-by, you might have missed this in Romans 1: that Paul illustrates the fall of human beings into a state of sinfulness by these two things... exchanging the true God for idols and exchanging natural (heterosexual) relations for unnatural (homosexual) relations.
So, while he evidently presumes the sinfulness of the latter, it is true that in his letters he devotes a great deal of specific attention to the sins of the former (i.e., adultery and fornication).
The issue seems to be whether or not one could legitimately interpret this part of Paul's more deliberate theological presentation in Romans (this assertion of sexual perversion) as no longer applicable in the same way that most churches have interpreted as culturally-conditioned his advice about the role of women in the church (for example).
Paul claims himself to be as flexible as he can in matters (customs) that do not ultimately matter ("I am all things to all men"). Certainly, his teaching that there is "no longer male or female" (because we are all "one in Christ") gives reason to relativize the subordinated role of women mentioned elsewhere. (And, in the last chapter of Romans, he also calls women 'apostles.')
But, can Christians rightly say that homosexuality is another such culturally-conditioned prohibition? It seems to me that is the question for those who take the authority of Scripture seriously.
5
@David
Ah, witness the torturous twisting of a few verses in the bible to justify my and my friends' and families' acceptable sins, while continuing to sanction the sins of others...Are the words of Paul (who never actually spent time with Jesus), superior to the apostles who did spend time with him? I am sure I could find a few thousand Catholic theologians who disagree with your analysis.
It's nonsense like this that has driven so many people away from organized religion.
2
Of course a Christian Church rejected gay marriage. God said that marriage is between a man and a woman. Pro tip: Christians believe in God. It’s that simple.
And please no citing weird stuff from the Old Testament or taking quotes of loving thy neighbor, etc. out of context.
Don’t take this to mean that we as Christians aren’t to love everyone. I judge no man. My job as a Christian is to love people. But God was clear on marriage. So you can’t expect people who believe in God to simply ignore that.
PS I support equal legal rights for same sex couples.
5
@Mike The New Testament mentions many times that divorce for reasons other than immorality and remarrying is adulterous. Why then does the church allow its members to divorce?
16
The Old Testament also forbids the wearing of mixed fiber clothing, eating of shellfish and work on the Sabbath. The Bible also calls for men to have multiple wives. Are these rules part of your life as well? The Talmud teaches us that there are only ten immutable rules in the Torah and these are The Ten Commandments. Time changes and the scholars have told us that these other rules can be modified over time.
8
@Mike You tell us "no citing weird stuff from the Old Testament or taking quotes of loving thy neighbor, etc. out of context," yet you think it is necessary to believe what the Bible writer(s) say about marriage between a man and a woman. Actually the Bible also says those "weird" things you mention. Why believe some but not all? I
2
Evolution takes a long time. Evolution away from believing in fairy tales and trying to impose them on the greater polity is more than 500 years old and counting. What, another 500 years to issue the extinction declaration?
6
I long thought of the Methodist church as a very beige religion when my mother would drag me there as a teenager. Now they've apparently slid into irrelevance. I'm not very religious but if I had to pick a church now I'd probably go to an Episcopal or United Church of Christ or maybe even Friends (Quaker). I don't see anything particularly Christian about the more conservative ones. They are there for the large percentage of the population that needs to be told what to believe, sort of like the Scientologists.
14
As an atheist, I applaud the UMC for their traditionalist vote. The more that modern churches affirm the clear unscientific and discriminatory tenets of their holy book, the quicker they alienate the younger generations and hasten their march to the political and social sidelines.
A quick note for female Christians: God wants you silent in church and subordinate to men. He doesn’t like you much more than he likes gays or the rich. Do the math.
11
You don't have to be a religious scholar to understand that the only person who gets to say what is "incompatible with Christianity" is Jesus. Anybody else is just making stuff up. Erring on the side of compassion and brotherhood seems to be the safe bet, but not the one that the UMC chose in this case.
11
Why is any of this a surprise to anyone? An institution that feels its foundational texts are being scrutinized and/or attacked behaves like the organism it truly is. It puts out spines, bristles, and shields itself. The United Methodist Church is simply behaving the way any animal would behave under similar circumstances. "Reason" has nothing to do with it, God knows. Love, even less. Biology rules -- even in theological matters. Alas.
1
It's not that I've 'given up' on organized religions because I haven't belonged to one for over 30 years (when I used to accompany my grandfather to synagogue on Saturdays). It's just that the people of this country MUST be made to understand or FORCED to submit to the idea that in a free land everyone should be allowed to practice their faith OR LACK OF FAITH. If a faith's doctrine insists that it's the duty of it's adherents to try to block others from living their lives freely then that is what becomes the problem. I have less sympathy for those inside a faith who fail to find acceptance - that's for the adherents and clergy of those faiths to work out between themselves. It's the affect that faiths have on those that are NON-BELIEVERS that is my concern and some faiths understand that the only way to be TRULY free is to accept that others will live lives differently from theirs and moreover we should fight to support those we disagree with in their rights to live according to their wishes because otherwise I cannot expect to have MY way of life defended and supported in the face of those (like the immoral born-again lot) who are not happy with the freedom to live as they choose but who want to force others to live their way or no way at all. We've seen their corrupt faith as they support the most immoral and un-Christian president in our history and while I support their right to practice their faith IN CHURCH, don't you dare fail to sign my public marriage license!
4
What is missing from this article and the comments is commentary on how American UMC churches are bowing to the bigotry of African, Russian, and Asian congregants. From the article: 6 in 10 American Methodists vote for inclusion, but some foreign churches are in places where homosexuality is a crime.
Why did the UMC force one law upon all of its congregants regardless of nation?
American Methodists deserve better.
Many UMC churches will not be able to survive as young families leave for more inclusive churches.
15
@Bruce
There were three plans brought forward. One of those plans would have allowed each congregation to vote on the issue of LGBTQ clergy and marriage. That plan did not garner enough votes. Since the church is "connectional", all conferences had equal votes, and the Asian and African conferences are more conservative. If the denomination splits, it will no longer be connectional.
The Methodist church that I grew up in was unwaveringly liberal. I grew up believing that the liberal position WAS the Christian position. I grew up spending summers repairing homes in Appalachia and hearing slogans like "we accept people right where they are and just the way they are". My beliefs as a Methodist are part of what led me to become a social worker. But just like in 2016, a liberal majority in America has had their will repressed by collusion between American conservatives and conservative foreign elements (only this time, in Africa instead of Russia). This is going to be sad for many people (like me) who now have to choose between staying with a church family full of people that they love, and finding a way to follow their conscience. So frustrating, and beyond sad.
17
I'm not a person that pretends to know the ways of God, should he/she/they exist, but I can't help thinking the Methodist Church is doing the name of any loving God a huge disservice these days. It makes "love thy neighbor" ring a sour note.
10
Were the more elderly members those who voted to reject the L.G.B.T.Q community? Was the vote age sensitive? What will the vote be in ten or fifteen years? When will the voices of the young be heard and more importantly addressed?
I'm an Episcopalian with very close ties to the Methodist Church. I have the deepest respect for the Methodists and I am saddened to see this split occurring. If the opinions of the new and younger members are to be respected, the church needs to rethink its stance. Division is not the answer.
5
@Steve The outcome of the vote was not surprising if you consider that over 40% of voting delegates were from Africa, and that group is almost unanimously opposed to gay rights. Probably what the UMC in the U.S. should so is form a separate group and allow each church to decide how they would handle the gay marriage and clergy--the UMCUS.
2
I was raised a Methodist. While the church did have a conservative congregation, the parishioners truly did try to live the teachings of Christ. We fed the hungry, cared for the sick, were tolerant of other religious views, etc.
That was almost 30 years ago. I had hoped to see the church take an enlightened stand on this issue. I think it is pretty simple actually. Given that Christ, according to Biblical teaching, took great pride in surrounding himself with society's cast-offs, among them prostitutes and tax collectors, I think it can be fairly said that Christ wouldn't have look askance at gay men and women. The answer is so obvious and yet people of Christianity can't seem get past this trivial issue. So hung up on sex!
Judge not lest ye be judged...
And the churches wonder why they are losing members so rapidly? How relevant are your discriminatory rules (so inconsistent with the teachings of Christ) when nobody wants to be a member?
16
Far too many church denominations remain firmly committed on their path to irrelevance and will see the number of their parishioners continue its rapid decline until their clergy are shepherds to empty buildings.
Jesus asked that we love each other as we love ourselves. Jesus didn’t have any exceptions. The other stories (folklore) in the Bible are man’s words not the words of Jesus.
6
A church is just a private club which no one needs to join. You can love Jesus and one another leading a Christian life without ever setting foot in a church building. The only down side is the club has a lot of political and financial influence, just the stuff Jesus was against.
16
My church, First United Methodist, voted overwhelmingly to give up access to free Sunday parking in downtown Madison when the owner of the parking garage pressured us to stop sheltering the homeless. I’ve no doubt we will do the right thing again and tell the church “leadership” who voted in favor of bigotry and exclusion that we will not be part of this. The words “All means all” are engraved above the entrance to our sanctuary. They’re there for a reason.
43
Dear LGBT friends seeking church approvals - why would you even want to be accepted into a group of bigots? By having recognized your own truth you are already so much closer to ‘God’ - the way I have come to understand the concept. (Was raised a Lutheran and left Christianity altogether, despite love for some of the Jesus message.)
Regarding the teachings of Jesus: the historic man (an enlightened yogi in my book) mingled with outsiders and rejects and preached universal love - not selective love.
My 2 cents of advise: love Jesus, forget Church, meditate or pray at home.
24
In the Bible, there is slavery and men rule. The more we take the Bible literally and the more of the Bible we take literally, the less use we have for much of our common sense and moral sensibility.
From what we know, gay people do not choose to be gay, but rather discover that they are. So God makes them that way (or allows Nature to make them that way, or any of number of other theological wonders that allow us to absolve God of doing this). But, according to some readings of the Bible, it is a sin, much as being left-handed was once a sinister defect to be corrected. So God makes gay people and then dumps on them. This is unfair according to our understanding of fairness. This leaves us with several choices, none good.
For God's condemnation of gayness to be fair, gays must have chosen it. If they say they did not, they are liars as well as gay.
Or gays did not choose their gayness, and God's treatment of them looks unfair to us because we do not and cannot understand real fairness. We cannot expect God's ways to make sense to us, and must do what (we think) he commands and not question it. Humans who pull a stunt like that are called tyrants and dictators; only God is allowed to behave in that way.
Or we decide that we understand justice, truth, goodness, and God better than the people of the Bible did. We respect them because we stand on their shoulders and see further than they did.
9
@sdavidc9 not trying to attack but the idea that "GOD created people a certain way" makes no sense... the entire story of mankind in Catholicism & Christianity is based on free will. Also the condemnation of homosexuality stems from Sodom, in which it was stated as a "abomination" that tied to "no abomination shall enter the kingdom of GOD." Is straight forward. I digress as GOD judges and I could not careless, he makes the final decision.
1
@sdavidc9 The issue here is not with being gay. It is with gay marriage.
This is a big step in exactly the wrong direction.
21
All modern religions should be honest and declare, "We don't know what to do with human sexuality." The only rule a church should apply, in my opinion, is that mandate for physicians in the Hippocratic Oath" "First, do no harm." It is the harm we do to ourselves and others with our sexuality, not the sex act itself, whether homosexual or heterosexual, that should be condemned. Preaching and teaching about sexual relations should be in the context of 1 Corinthians 13, "Love is patient, love is kind ..." The sins associated with sex are common to all human relations and activities. Keeping homosexual persons out of the pulpits and denying them the sacrament of marriage misses the mark widely and evades the church's responsibility to teach about sex in the context of love.
16
Although I’m no longer an active member of the Methodist Church, I still identify as a Methodist. This vote by the church is appalling, and I’m disgusted by the outcome. I have had good friends that are gay, lesbian and transgender, and every one of them has been a good person trying to love a decent life and be considerate of others. I’m ashamed that so many Methodists are stuck in their ways and refuse to understand that God doesn’t care about your sexual orientation, He cares about what’s in your heart and how you love your life. Now I’m almost ashamed to tell people I identify as a Methodist. For shame.
21
Even though my faith was an essential part of my life, I left the UMC over this issue when I moved away from home after college 20 years ago and needed to find a new congregation anyway because I was in a new city. I joined the United Church Of Christ which has generally long been faster moving on social issues (yes, liberal churches with records of action on social justice do exist). I have not looked back. Patience for slow change sometimes rightfully snaps.
Love to all LGBTQ UMC members. I hope and pray your faith communities surround you in love and figure out a way to overcome this. If not, please know there are other churches that would welcome you and affirm and support who you are, as you are. I hope you are able to seek those communities and find them.
7
"As mainline denominations that embrace gay rights continue to decline in membership, conservative Christian institutions are growing in power and financial resources."
My comment should not be understood as reflecting either support or lack of such for gay rights in US Christianity. It is rather a musing on an apparent reality:
If the statement above from the article is correct, then the future of Christianity, or much of it, in the US, revolves around gay rights. The LGBT community apparently does not provide enough potential support to sustain or maintain those denominations which have significant foes of gay rights who would leave if they are granted. Gay rights then appears to be the kiss of death to normative denominations and subsequently the catalyst for the conservative and evangelical Christian boom. The only Christian boom in the US.
I find that hard to understand, but it apparently touches many raw nerves.
From the standpoint of denominational logic, better to deny LGBT to maintain status quo and risk their leaving, than to include them and risk the far greater leaving of opponents.
1
I'm not a Methodist, so I'm sorry for barging in. But in our town, the Methodist church has meant so much to us and has been such an ecumenical and communal strength, that I hurt for its members right now. Our local congregation let my oldest son use the pipe organ in their sanctuary every other day for a year when we couldn't find one for him to practice on; our two boys attended Scouts there for years; our daughter has performed there for reader's theatre and other communal events; my wife has played harp at weddings there. I am close with several members, and all are public-minded and service-oriented people of intelligence and faith who have differing opinions about this issue. I have faith that they can work this out and that if God truly wants ALL his children to find happiness, they can resolve their conflicts. I hope that bitterness and strife can lead to understanding and to forgiveness, not pettiness. We need the Methodist church to be strong in our communities, and the Methodist church as a whole needs all of our prayers right now.
7
Having grown up (and confirmed) in the United Methodist Church and as a granddaughter of a pastor in the Church, I am profoundly disappointed. As a teenager, I watched one of the most inspirational pastors leave the church as he realized he was gay, and later came out myself in the 1990s. The mantra of being “welcoming” is false in many congregations in the Church, to the point that this needs to be removed from the signs and websites represented by these voters. Clearly, I am not wanted, nor my family, as evident by this vote. The United Methodist Church is just another false model of Christianity that has little to do with Jesus Christ (who said nothing about homosexuality which was clearly part of society at that time). I will have nothing to do with the UMC any longer, and I would hope that the true “welcoming” congregations can form a Christ like organization I can be proud to be part of.
11
I left the mainline protestant church over 35 years ago because of its inability to adequately, and in a Christian manner, address many social justice issues. Especially the full and complete involvement, including ordination, of LGBT people. I decided I would rather switch than fight. I was right. Even now, the debacle in St. Louis illustrates what I never wanted to be involved in. And anyone who thinks the Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans and even all of the Congregationalists have fully resolved this issue are whistling past the graveyard. I joined the Unitarian Universalists and have never looked back. Although they have roots in the Judeo-Christian tradition, they are no longer a Christian movement, but I chose them because they acted more Christian than most “Christian “ churches. They welcome those from all faith traditions without judgment or dogma. In fact, about 50 years ago, the UUs voted to ordain LGBT people and welcome them into full and complete participation in every aspect of their congregations. No second-class citizenship. UUs have been using a truly descriptive slogan for the last several years: “On the Side of Love.”
9
I had hoped that the Methodists might have found a middle way. However, church schisms are nothing new, especially in Protestantism, from Luther to Calvin and on through one after another division. In a sense, that is the whole point of Protestantism -- to allow for self determination, in distinction from submission to an overarching institutional authority like the Catholic Church that some may deem to be corrupt.
4
Once you declare homosexuality a sin because God said so, you’ve cut yourself off from following a middle way. There’s no possibility of compromise at that point, and a split becomes inevitable.
There are worse things in life than Methodists disagreeing with each other. Look how Roman Catholics and Episcopalians have managed to survive their schism.
Disclaimer: I’m an atheist raised in the Presbyterian tradition, with some time spent in Baptist, Methodist, and Roman Catholic environments. Consequently, I find these arguments to be rather silly. If you believe same-sex marriage is wrong, don’t marry someone of the same sex. If you don’t want to be preached at by an LGBTQ preacher, find another congregation. If you don’t like the concept of a Pope, don’t be a Roman Catholic. Problem solved, unless you’re one of those annoying people who possess a burning desire to force others to live by your personal creed.
1
How convenient that some people misinterpret & exploit Leviticus, don't follow the rest of Torah, but then disregard Jesus' admonition against divorce! (Matthew 19:3-12, Mark 10:2-12)
Those people are just exploiting Leviticus to justify their evil bigotry! I thought that Methodists were for justice! & honesty!
17
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace....
John Lennon
22
In America, Methodist’s are anything but United. A bit more liberal then Presbyterians but a long way from Episcopalians, Catholics, and the ever-growing multitudes of agnostics.
3
@William In point of fact, the Presbys allow same sex marriage and LGBQ people to serve as Elders and senior church members. Which even further supports your cooment that Methodists are out of sync with most Americans.
Revthe Kansas pastor, I wouldn’t let my kids visit his children and attend their church knowing that he apparently just wants to convert them.
If you're gay and reading some of these comments, then you see in what esteem many "traditionalists" hold you. Why cling to those who dislike you? If you believe the scripture, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them," then you don't need an official church. Take your talents and your genius and your money, and move on.
23
@Blair - Amen
2
LGBTQ I people are welcome it sounds like but they just can’t be married or be pastors. people who aren’t catholic can’t get married or be pastors in the catholic church unless they embrace catholicism. doubt gay churches are welcoming to people who have different views on homosexuality. gay churches do not want people who voted for donald trump in their churches. and for sure who not let them be pastors.
3
@Jolie
Your point seems to be: religion is exclusionary. Thank you for making it clear why we don't need religion.
They are bound and determined to make their denomination extinct. And we’ll all be the better for it.
When we get all religions to do the same, the world will be a much more peaceful and accepting place.
15
My heart breaks for the LGBTQ members of the UMC.
I hope you find churches and fellowship with those who will truly love and accept you, because you are God's children too.
8
The United Methodist denomination has been in my rear view mirror for almost two decades now. This is just the moment when it finally disappears from view. It is no more relevant to me than the Whig Party or the Temperance Movement.
10
In my view, Jesus opposed anything that prevented people from becoming close to God in both their spirit and their behavior. He was explicit about money, pride and selfishness. Perhaps in the modern era he would also have needed to speak about placing too much importance on sex. And this comment applies to both sides of this lamentable debate that seems to run through every Christian denomination (in different ways).
60
@David G It seems you're conflating sex (the act of sex) with love (between two people, regardless of their genders). If Jesus was concerned about things preventing closeness to God, then he wouldn't have opposed love in any form. I think it's homophobes (not saying you're one, to be clear) who are focused on sex, not love.
10
How sad that the body of the Methodist Church would choose to reject people.
My grandmother was Methodist her entire life; this decision, and its underlying meanness of spirit, no doubt has her rolling in her grave.
6
Jesus founded a religion on accepting the outsider. Join the Episcopal church where that principle is never forgotten. All are welcome no matter who you love. Also, our Bishop just presided over Meghan and Harry's royal wedding. Pretty awesome.
7
As a person who considered myself a lifelong Methodist I was so upset a few years ago when the church defrocked a pastor who performed a wedding ceremony for his son and his partner that I left the church. I always thought Methodists were welcoming and understanding. Clearly their leadership is not. How sad! I have friends in loving same sex marriages. I would never turn my back on them. I am at peace with my decision to leave the church.
16
I don’t understand. There are many different denominations of churches. A different one every mile or so. All of these different denominations were fractured from an original because of different points of view. That’s how they came to be. Right or wrong, if you’re view is different, change the channel, or go someplace more welcoming. Everyone is so obsessed with conformity, or cramming ideals down everyone else’s throat. The article doesn’t say that anyone is not welcome. It says that it will not have gay leaders, perform same sex marriages, or have gay members. I don’t need a membership card to watch a movie, but they’re not going to let me run the projector either.
Shouldn't they also go after divorce and adultery? Those are much bigger theological no-nos.
18
I am not a religious person but found myself feeling terribly sad about this result. Then I thought, what do I care. Let the UMC wither and die in its bigotry.
6
Would any Methodist, or any other Christian for that matter, please show the scripture passage where Jesus condemns non-heterosexual marriage, behavior, or any mention of anything that might be construed as anti-gay.
And before someone quotes anything from the "Old Testament", he/she might want to remember that Paul explicitly states that the Laws of Moses are not applicable to Christians. Matthew teaches that there are only two valid commandments, neither of which mentions gay activity.
13
I'm a person for whom the spirit of Christ has value in my life today, as grace and guide for moving beyond my own fears and prejudices, and I recognize that attendance numbers for members, especially in growing markets like Africa, is the valuable coin of the realm for the Methodists who voted against Christ's embrace of the UMC's lgbtq flock. Shame! It makes my heart glad to think of all those young folks, who will choose love of lgbtq brothers & sisters over a church whose heart is clearly not up to the task of love in our times.
8
This is utterly baffling! I grew up in the UMC of New England in the 70s and it was encouraging to this then-teen that the church already had a long history of ordaining women, something other stripes of Christianity have yet to accept all these decades later. Although its history has been fitful at times, the Methodist church used to be progressive. What has happened?
John Wesley himself is said to have authorized a woman to preach in the 1780s. The recently emancipated slave, Sojourner Truth, founded a Methodist church in NY in the 1820s. The first ordained woman was Helenor Davisson just after the Civil war. Full clergy rights were granted to women in 1956, and reaffirmed at the merger of the Methodists with the United Brethren in 1968.
How, with all of this bold history, has the denomination chosen to draw such a harsh line against the LGBT community? It is incomprehensible.
It is no wonder that the UMC church in my west coast neighborhood closed about 20 years ago. Closed Hearts. Closed Minds. Closed Doors.
27
@Cynthia
Follow the money.
When will these so-called Christians learn that being a true Christians is to embrace all. No wonder this country has an increasing & record number of people leaving churches and the overwhelming number of people identifying themselves as agnostic or as atheists.
9
Agnostics and atheist do not have to leave organized religion to find a welcoming spiritual home and community. It has existed for nearly 200:years in America: the Unitarian Universalists. The clear majority of UUs are agnostic or atheist, with many other faith heritages represented as well.
1
Ironically enough, it was on this date (Feb. 26) in 1616 that Galileo Galilei was ordered by the Inquisition to reject the "heretical concept" that held that the earth revolved around the sun instead of it being the center of the universe. It took several centuries--and a few burnings at the stake--for theology to catch up with science. Today the Methodists (a persuasion to which I belong) also rejected science which has clearly stated that sexual identity is not a "life-style choice" but something that humans are born into. Four hundred years ago, the "infallible" Catholic fathers were wrong, both in their interpretation of Christian teachings and in their understanding of the nature of the God-centered universe. In rejecting modern science in favor of faith-based (and biased) tradition, the Methodists just made a similar mistake.
12
It appears their are more than enough opponents to this decision to start an independent LGBT church. Don't force your beliefs on those who disagree.
1
Between this homophobic ruling, the recent religious-backed political push to further restrict women's physical and medical autonomy, and the endless spate of sexual abuse crimes committed by the Catholic church, it's past time that we take a hard look at exactly what benefit religion brings to society. I've lived my entire life with an endless onslaught of homophobia, dehumanization, bigotry, misogyny, and blatant ignorance leveled at myself and those I dearly love. I am no longer willing or able to allow these endless contortions, based upon centuries-old stories, to justify further limiting rights of adult Americans, nor to further perpetuate hate, division, and ignorance. It's time for the human species to evolve, and discard the bigotry and superstition that has done little to nothing to advance compassion, wisdom, and knowledge, but has shattered countless lives and meaningful relationships.
11
The UMC will gradually find its home in the third world, until secular and democratic revolutions in those countries also ultimately get rid of the UMC.
A bit like cigarettes - having been banished from the West by science, they have moved on to ravage the peoples of developing nations.
13
Ward Cleaver of Leave It To Beaver has moved on. Why can’t the church elders do the same?
9
Time for the LGBTQ community to vote with their feet.
47
There are any number of progressive Christian denominations ready to welcome all people, whatever their sexual orientations. That's what Jesus would do.
5
The typical Methodist Church is often 3/4’empty at Sunday service, and most of the congregation are 60 . This is a dying institution, and it deserves to die.
49
@Hubert Nash
"This is a dying institution, and it deserves to die"....tomorrow.
14
@Hubert Nash - My childhood Methodist church closed.
3
@Hubert Nash
Depends on where the church is located. Near wealthy areas of cities, it is packed with youth, however in southern parts of cities taken over by Hispanic migration, the churches are mission houses for elderly white women ministering to people of all colors. The United Methodist Church no more deserves to die than you Hubert. On a good day hundreds of thousand America kids are schooled, elderly are fed, and overseas, people are given hope, education, and life in clinics that restore sight to the blind. What pray tell Hubert have you done lately.
3
These churches have no problem providing services to murderer's, rapists, child molesters, thieves and other evil people but shut the door to those in the LGBT community. Got to ask one question.
WHY?
40
@JustaVET the door is not shut to LGBT. You’re welcomed to attend.
@JustaVET
Hmmm, I think you just drew a comparison between LGBT and "murderer's, rapists, child molesters, thieves and other evil people". I kinda think you didn't mean to do that.
I might suggest a fix: "These churches have no problem providing services to everyone claiming association with methodism, but shut the door to those in the LGBT community. Shameful."
Yes, better.
7
@JustaVET
Sounds like you are a regular attendee, and since people rarely disclose their troubles, I suppose all of those qualities apply to you personally. And yes, I have taken people directly from jail to church.
Decades ago when I was a youth the "United" was added and formed the UMC. No longer. You lose my offerings, my support, and my bequest as a childless widow of means.
It is clearly about money, power, politics, and the endless grab for all of them. I'm tired of church shopping in NYC. Guess it's time for the Unitarian Church. I met a guy on the bus on Sunday coming home from church who was also coming to the UWS, praising All Souls Unitarian. I'll be there this Sunday after my lifetime in the Methodist Church. Done with old fogies.
I don't agree with the T part of LBGTQ, but I was prepared to live with it. Apparently our soulless UMC Church Bishops cannot. Shame.
31
Come to Marble Collegiate on 29th and Fifth. All are welcome.
@Linda
No one is asking you to agree with the "T", just as they are not being asked to agree that you exist. They are there, physically present in the world. They are simply a fact that in no way requires your approval, nor is it sought.
4
You will love the Unitarians, especially All Souls. But go several times and participate in a few activities, so you get a really good feel about the church.
I grew up in the Methodist tradition with a father who was a pastor of three churches, preaching three times every Sunday. After my father died I left the church and eventually christianity altogether. My feeling was, if they treat LGBTQ people so terribly, how they are they going to treat me? My sins would be considered just as bad, if not worst, so I left.
If your on a date with someone and they treat the wait staff terribly, you know how they will treat you too!
27
@Sandr
Join another church. No one has a monopoly on the truth.
Frankly I'm embarrassed for their ignorance. The ones that are still claiming gays can't have children and thus increase the flock should look at the millions of gay and lesbian parents. The Methodists are holding on to prejudices that were instilled in them long ago (including by white colonialists in Africa), but which never had much to do with either truth or spirituality.
48
This is not a theological debate. The Bible does not condone same sex relations. The Torah says, "Choose Life." This is political. The Left going back at least to 18th century France has hated the Bible. They hate the family. Voltaire said that he was not anti-Semitic, he just blamed the Jews for founding Christianity. Rousseau put all his children into orphanages, where they expired. Rousseau also said nothing between the individual and the state. In the French Revolution, what did they do? They gutted laws against divorce. (They also smashed clocks but we'll put that aside for now.) And they ransacked churches. In the Russian revolution, what did they do? They gutted laws against divorce, legalized abortion, and ransacked the churches. This is so not new. These people who say they are religious are not Christian. They are people with another moral perspective that time has taught us is essentially Marxist, or per the French Revolution, pre-Marxist. So there is actually a solution here in the American polity. Stop saying you are are Christian, and start some other religion that makes you happy. Call it the Second Methodist LGBT Church of Prometheus on Maple Avenue. And welcome people to come worship there.
13
There’s already such an all-welcoming denomination, the Unitarian Universalists. Check them out.
@Cobble Hill
Impressive stew. You’re joking, right.
1
@Cobble Hill
The foundation of Protestant teachin is the New Testament of universal unconditional love, not the Torah or Old Testament.
Remain a bigot. If God exists he / she will see that.
1
The bible can be interpreted to say whatever you want it to say, and that is how you weaponize religion.
49
Jesus's message was one of love for everyone. Other denominations in the US are open and prepared to welcome our fellow believers who want to follow his word.
15
@Sailor40 Not in my Catholic Church.
6
One of the reasons the Methodist establishment church is losing members, and lost me and my family.
22
@John
The UMC has just fired another bullet into their own foot. This decision will only hurt them and quicken their demise.
Amen
2
"...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."*
* Refer first to clauses 2 through 9 and the associated codicils.
8
This division has happened to other old Christian churches. My husband is a Presbyterian. A couple of years ago, the most conservative congregations split off from Prebyterian USA because of this issue. it was hard on people from smaller towns/cities who had only one prebyterian church in town. Do they drive farther to join a congregation they agree with in other cities or stay with their church which split off about something they disagree with?
4
God is Great. Truth prevails.
9
@RM
....and your “Truth” is ?
4
Is there anything as mean and nasty and cruel as religion? Ditch them all. Live an honest and just and kind life and ban organized religion from civil society. The world would be so much better off.
121
Is it so hard to define a personal credo based on foundational human ideals ?? - do not set upon another being w the intent to cause harm, do not steal, tell the truth, and come clean when you fail to tell the truth, learn what shame feels like, see the ways it causes people - you included to hurt and hide and lash out- learn to know thyself.
Recognize pain so that you recognize when others feel it. Try to lesson it by admitting to your own failings. Let people know they aren’t alone and that everyone is afraid and confused sometimes/ that is not a sign that you need religion - it’s a sign that you are human and that you need a place or people who allow you to say “I’m afraid” and be there for you until it passes- which it will.
It’s okay to believe in some afterlife- but when someone tells you that this life is just a test for the next - don’t believe it — this life is for the head and now - the tests you face today you face for today.
The religion that embraces the inherent confusion, uncertainty and unpredictability of being human is the only way for me.
It’s tough to be a person in the world. And that’s okay because it has to be okay. Hang in there. Do a little loving.
3
>>> "Is there anything as mean and nasty and cruel as religion?"
Well, there's capitalism.
5
Those who claim that the Bible is anti gay are cherry picking scripture to serve their own bigotry. In this they are no different than those who used the Bible to justify slavery and continuing racial discrimination. Older Christian conservatives obsession with human sexuality and gender is ultimately self destructive and risks rendering their church’s irrelevant to many of their own members.
100
@John Chastain I really don’t think we can claim that it is just the “older Christian conservatives” who are obsessed with human sexuality and gender. Does anyone think about anything else anymore?
7
@John Chastain
I get your point about cherry picking scripture being a common practice to defend or attack a religious/political/cultural stance, but as a literary historian, I get uncomfortable when people start mentioning sexuality/gender discrimination in the same breath as racial discrimination. Of course those can go hand-in-hand at the same time. And yes, to discriminate is bad, and both forms share reprehensible characteristics; however, rape, economic profit, and incest were codified in slavery apologetics scripturally to sustain slavery and justify barbarity and physical brutality. These relied on an overt misreading of scripture that rewrote the creation story and/or the flood story as justifications. As I see it, the scriptural arguments about monogamy, virginity, sexuality, and marriage revolve around readings of particular passages, not a wholehearted effort to lay a particular mythos over the very creation stories that justify traditional sexuality. Maybe that's because hetero males in denial of other practices translated the Bible, but the current conflict seems to me to be one of interpretation of a few scriptural passages, not a rewriting of the original Biblical mythos to justify the beating, rape, and enslavement of people because of their skin color.
1
Do not lie with man as with woman ... it is an abomination ... surely put to death.
Not anti gay. According to some.
Tough sell.
I was raised a Methodist. I’ve always been proud of my denomination, which was founded in 18th century England as the radical religion of the common people. This decision of the conference makes me very sad as it breaks with that tradition of openness and equality.
41
"We are are all God's children", claim these fake, phony, fraudulent Christians......."except for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.....they can all go burn in the fiery pit of hell".
Nice church.
Who needs Satan when the United Methodist Church is filling the role so spectacularly .
71
@Socrates Not one single Methodist has ever said that. Why spread lies?
@Socrates Not all Methodists agree with this ruling. As a lifelong Methodist, my solution is for the US UMC to break from the world church that we have been for centuries. The sad part of this is that if we had not gotten past being an exclusionary church -- there would be no African and Asian bishops -- only old white Anglo-Saxon men in charge however we opened the doors to African and Asian members and now they have elected to discriminate against LBGTQ human beings of all races. Irony.
I’m so saddened by this. To boil the entire history of both the Christian faith and its God to the fundamentalist rise of the last hundred years is the poorest reflection of the toil of Jesus Christ. Evangelicalism chose to take up the mantle of fundamentalist, a modern heresy, and jump in bed with the Republican powers-that-be not out of hope of throwing the liberating net of Jesus Christ to the poor, oppressed, mourning, enslaved, embattled, persecuted, and dehumanized it was radically Incarnated for, but as a modern-day crusade for Empire-esque power. It’s not only the Christians directly affected by the inconsistent and Fruit-rotting decision made by right-wing UMC delegates, but future generations of those called by God to worship our Lord Jesus Christ. The UMC will be forever fractured, its possibility for crisp and healthy Fruit crucified, and its possible witness destroyed. No man, woman, or child who sees the inherent love of Christ and dignity of affirmation will shout in joy of the Lord’s work from the pews of a UMC any longer; rather, those who stay will just be worshipping their own scared, narrow, juvenile, and idolatrous image.
13
My view of this tragic conflict is that the proponents of what they call "marriage equality" are not satisfied with some kind of melioristic peace on their view of human sexuality. What they really want is to force the whole Christian world to accept their view of this issue--to impose their own vision of moral and spiritual supremacy. It is extremely instructive to me that the opposition to them comes not from the metropolitan U.S. but from elsewhere--and that there is significant liberal bigotry on this issue.
45
@David A. Lee
"What they really want is to force the whole Christian world to accept their view of this issue--to impose their own vision of moral and spiritual supremacy."
There is a poignant irony in that sentence. Sadly we haven't gotten to the enlightened state of live and let live yet.
24
@David A. Lee. Well written. The UMC is perfectly entitled to stand by their own view of their religion. And those members who are unhappy are perfectly entitled to look elsewhere. Diversity means precisely that.
17
Supremacy? Where did that come from?
8
Methodists judge people based on their sexuality. I judge Methodists based on the content of their character.
24
I am sad to read this. Though this seems a mighty blow, it is the essence of the winds of change. Spirituality should no longer be monochromatically interpreted. This can be a
REcreation, and an emergence for society... of which we are ALL part. It is time religion catches up with society. I pray for those who fear change and remain reticent by casting out those who aren't "by the book". To the new churches establishing who truly understand the HUMAN condition by accepting all, I offer high praise. This is one victory for HUMANity.
5
If Jesus were alive to see this -- this callow deformation of love and respect for all people -- he'd never stop throwing up.
24
@David S.
According to Christian doctrine, Jesus is still alive and sits at the right hand of the Father, ever interceding for us.
6
@DDunn...
I didn't know that there was a single Christian doctrine... I thought that there were many.
The house of Christainly has many, many, many rooms... not just one.
And there is much disagreement between the many.
2
Indeed. And with and within us. Including those would who leave the Methodist Church. Mercy on these Methodist sinners who know not what they do.
Ahh yes, the love and kindness of religious thought and it's practitioners. If religion and the beliefs it espouses was really the highest form of love, would it exclude so many from it's ranks?
15
My son and I both left the Methodist church over this issue. We both know many people who are LGB and they are just as loving and wonderful as our straight friends.
It is so odd that somehow these few passages in an outdated book can dictate membership in an organization that supposedly serves an all loving god.
Also, it is sad when somehow love between two people, of the same sex, becomes too big for a religion’s god to handle.
Who would want to pray or worship a god that is so weak and confused?
40
@Charles Smithson
Yes, although I rather think the bigotry against gay people and against sex and gender diversity dictates the distorted reading of the scripture, rather than the scripture influencing the bigots' point of view.
1
I am straight, white, old, a life-long Methodist and almost too disappointed/disgusted for words.
But I am not disillusioned---I never bought into the illusion that the evangelical/conservative movement in my denomination would stop talking about what Jesus never talked about (homosexuality) and start talking about what he spent most of his time talking about (caring for the poor, the marginalized, the "foreigner").
The United Methodist Church has now chosen to remain in Egypt---enslaved by the past, enslaved to a tradition that has enabled it to justify the cultural/religious enslavement/abuse of those who are just being who they are and who cannot be anything other than who they are, enslaved to a culture-based bigotry that prevents it from transcending the putrid economy of this kingdom in favor of the righteous economy of that kingdom come and coming.
Not me. Certain that the Almighty will part whatever waters seek to hinder my journey and certain that guidance will be given, I'm setting forth out of Egypt and into the wilderness as a free man who, unlike my church, believes that the Promised Land is in front of me and not behind me. And I do so believing that I'll find a "beloved community" of fellow travelers which/whom are journeying in the same direction.
209
Wow, very cool, and well said!!!
12
@Rusty Inman
Although I only occasionally attend a church service I was always proud to say that I was born a Methodist. But, now I think I need to follow you into the wilderness.
11
@Rusty Inman
Well reasoned and how ironic that the new African and Asian converts tipped the scales against the Americans in the vote.
7
As a layperson who grew up and was confirmed in a UMC congregation in the 70s in the northern US, this "vote" is completely irrelevant to me. Our church was about the Golden Rule. Still is. We always welcomed everybody, and always will. And yes, there were countless gay pastors in my state and everyone knew that.
What people do in the name of "Christ" in other countries or communities doesn't matter to me. They are just lost. I feel for the clergy in the UMC to whom today did actually matter though.
That's all. Love.
98
@Andrew
I wish you were right Andrew about the irrelevancy of the vote, but I fear you are not. The vote allows outsiders to come in and discipline your golden rule churches. So you may think things will go on as before, but they won't. The UMC will split and from what I hear you saying, churches that accept everybody in love will be part of a new Methodist association of some sort.
2
@C Barghout I think you're right. A new way sounds great to someone like me. But, I'm sure many pastors are agonizing over a split that some of them have spent careers trying to prevent. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time... or, I'm sure, the last.
2
“the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.” Since when anymore is the Church and 2000 year-old teachings like this of any value? Young people and most educated people value the teachings that are more rooted in science than those rooted in tribal clansmanship and superstition. It's just a matter of time before the last of he dinosaurs disappear. We update our cellphones and computers--why not our minds?
29
We also value the golden rule: the only valuable piece of wisdom to come out of all this silly drama. The rest is irrelevant.
2
If Christ were here now, he would recognize no existing church.
16
Most American bishops voted for a plan that would have allowed each congregation to set its own rules on LGBTQ issues. What is unique about the Methodists is that they are (were) a world church which allowed extremely homophobic parts of the world to dictate an outcome that the American church doesn't embrace. This shows a basic problem with ecumenism. If you let people who hate LGBTQ people for example to start to dominate the numbers in your church, guess what, you cease being an open and inclusive organization. So here it is, as Americans we have become more tolerant and accepting. On the other hand, Methodist missionaries make new "Christians" who often are the types that kill GLBTQ on the spot. Result, the Methodist church will now be known as one of the bigoted protestant denominations.
88
Solution: the U.S. United Methodist Church should breakaway from the International churches. Why should African lay persons and bishops determine who can join my church in Evanston Illinois and who my pastor can marry? Our congregations and communities are completely different and have different needs and beliefs.
13
@C Barghout
Very interestng dilemma.
@C Barghout
True but William Farmer were he alive would have cast a traditional vote. Fear of catching gayness promotes intolerance.
3
Common sense prevailed. Blessed be God forever. Americans want it both ways. You cannot be a Christian and support gay marriage. Period.
5
@Rose Consoli
Who gets to decide whose version of Christianity is more authentic, more "common sense," than others? Is there one definition? If that were the case, how are there so many denominations, so many sects, so many conflicting interpretations based on 5,000 years of translations?
How can any one person's version of Christianity be "the truth"?
21
@Rose Consoli
Jesus never said one word about homosexuality. Not one word.
40
Funny, I firmly believe you are the unchristian one: you are wrong, marriage is love, God is love, and gay people who love each other in sacred commitment are married. That is God’s law.
You are both wrong and breaking the law that Jesus commanded us to follow: to love God with our whole hearts and minds, and to love each other.
Repent, and pray for forgiveness for your sinful viewpoint against gay marriage that flies in the face of God’s commandment to love, equally, all human beings, all of whom are made in His image and likeness.
19
I’m fine with gay priests, gay pastors, bisexual bus drivers, and transgendered electricians, etc. whatever floats your boat is fine with me.
I’m also fine with a religion deciding what it’s moral restrictions are. Unfortunately, we’ll now get the usual outrage for the usual suspects about how freedom of religion doesn’t mean anything.
23
@Jane Whitlock
That all depends on whose religion can be freely practiced.
5
@Jane Whitlock
But, they do have that right. They can restrict however they want to. If you have evidence of laws passed that interfere with their ability to do so please point it out. You simply cannot. For there are none.
Let's not conflate an internal church debate/policy/etc. with the laws of the United States of America including the franchise of civil rights. There is no such problem.
6
@JustaVET...
As well as who is free from the religious tyanny of others.
6
Christianity teaches that all humanity needs saving, and Jesus Christ is that savior. This means both that Jesus loves and invites all humanity to a relationship with God, but also that all humans, on their own, are estranged from God because of sin. It is painful to realize that we are constitutionally at odds with God’s plan, but it is freeing to know that the fact of our sinfulness is not the end of the story; Christ invites us to be born again in Him.
As for the specific issue of sexuality, our sexual desires and associations are typically among the most guarded and mysterious aspects of our identities, and no human being —no matter what anyone claims—fully understands the complex means by which an individual’s sexual identity is formed. People with same-sex attractions have felt so shamed for so long; they are tired of being treated as uniquely cursed among humanity. All people carry the curse of a sinful nature, though. We need to embrace one another and stop tearing each other down, but we also must accept that each of us is, by nature, at war with God, until we are saved by Christ. All Christians end up realizing that a deep-down, even dearly held, part of themselves has to go.
11
@Luckyme Very well said. I’m Catholic, but feel that some of the dogma is antithetical to the loving message of Jesus. We need to love more and judge less.
4
I grew up in the United Methodist church, and in my childhood I remember the teachings to be those of Jesus- compassion, forgiveness, humility and mercy. My home church slowly starting shifting in a politically conservative direction as I moved from home and became more socially liberal. l still attend church when I visit, and although these key tenets I remember as a child are still portrayed in sermons and scriptures, the actions of the members often speak otherwise. The religious right has enraptured these aging congregations, found some new believers, but mostly turned away people like me- millennials who were once devoted attendees and members.
29
Thankfully, there is no reason to join the Methodist Church. Try a different one.
32
@Frances Grimble
That may be obvious advice to the unaffiliated, but it is not exactly a compassionate or useful response to the dilemma of lifelong members of this denomination who happen to be LGBT+, or to their allies, and least of all to pastors who have devoted their lives and their talents to it, whose homes are in its parsonages, and whose financial security in retirement is vested in its pension funds.
11
@Frances Grimble
United Church of Christ is a Protestant church that welcomes all.
3
@herzliebster
Retirement funds should really not play into this debate, me thinks.
1
Another Christian denomination reveals its narrow lack of charity, inclusion, and true christian love. ll these denominations will continue to shrink as they refuse to join the modern world and live up to their public avowals of brotherhood and sisterhood for all.
20
@Rebecca Hogan
Sadly, as the article notes, the fast-growing churches are right-wing churches, typically located in growing suburbs, that have been founded (or taken over) by media-savvy preachers whose Sunday worship resembles a pep rally or a rock concert, who enjoy their own cult of personality, and preach a message that is heavy on sexual purity, Biblical literalism, jingoistic patriotism, or simple answers to complex questions.
There is evidence that some of these fast-growing churches, with their magnetic male rock-star preachers, are heavily funded under the table by right-wing political and economic interests.
17
@herzliebster
Are these really “churches” or just money making tax evading institution that we allow to exist?
The question is definitely rhetorical.
5
“We do need to praise God and multiply and same-sex marriage will not allow us to multiply,” she said. “If you do not agree with this, you are violating the law of the creator.”
Most gay couples that I know have kids. Ms Yugay needs to widen her horizons. Thanks to natural processes that heterosexual couples utilize when conception is difficult, any gay male or female can also be a biological parent. Praise the Lord.
17
@Alison Cartwright
As a single, childless, senior, straight woman, I tend to find that these exclusions include people like me. The comment about multiplying or the lack thereof only confirms that sentiment. Discrimination in any form disgusts me, especially in a church, where love is supposed to be the supreme goal.
24
@Alison Cartwright
Just as an aside: the Earth is overpopulated. Muliplying is not a cool believe anymore, in fact it is the killer of life on Earth.
1
How does she know “the law of the creator”? The Bible also supports Slavery (Leviticus/Exodus) so why doesn’t she support slavery too? Slavery must also be the law of the creator, as he supports it in his book.
1
privilege is forgetting how bad homophobia is in many parts of the world.
21
Hmmm, OK, trying to figure out what the “privilege” would be...? That we LGBT are advantaged not to be in other parts of the world where we would have no right to exist? To the extent of being killed? That is “privilege”?
1
Such hypocrisy. These supposed “ children of god” support an immoral, egotistical, hate filled man to run this country, yet restrict loving, caring, moral people from having any significant role in a church. You have lost so many of us who must create and follow our own personal spirituality rather than enter through doors where we are rejected because of who we are. For shame.
31
A sad day for anyone of respect for Jesus.
17
I’m still processing this, and am not entirely sure what to think. But there’s one common feeling coming from today’s vote: this hurts.
I come from a long line of Methodists. I grew up in, and was eventually confirmed into the United Methodist Church. This seems contradictory to so much of what I was taught about loving others and spreading the Gospel and love of Christ.
While I understand that the “Traditional Plan” is apparently limited to just preventing LGBT marriage ceremonies and LGBT clergy members from serving, it’s going to have a chilling, repulsive effect on so many who call the UMC their spiritual home. That seems so wrong compared to what I was taught to profess as part of my faith.
Regardless of what this body says, I’m going to keep loving others, and doing all the good I can, by all the means I can, for as long as I ever can. I’m confident other Methodist churches will do the same.
42
@Mitchell
"Confirmation" is nothing more than a non-biblical puberty rite, held over from the Romans.
1
@Mitchell
Yes. It does hurt, sadden,anger and confuse, when one's church inspires us, gives hope, raises us to love our neighbour, and then instructs us to shut the door, and close down our hearts.
1
conservative christians read their bibles badly. liberal christians don't read their bibles at all.
11
@Tad I wonder why you need to label groups or people. Isn’t that part of the problem?
4
@TadR. Better yet, read a good book and ditch that bible altogether.
9
@Tad R. You are mistaken about liberal Christians. They take the Bible very seriously.
9
Tell me again how religion is all about loving your fellow man.
Sad.
26
Religion is not all about loving your fellow man. LOVE is all about loving your fellow man. Try the Unitarian church on 21st
Street.
1
It's sad that the United Methodist Church has become the Divided Methodist Church. Do the two flames in the Methodist symbol now represent the eternal flames of hell? My local Methodist Pastor says often, "God does not make mistakes.". I add, "Only people do.". Now that this issue is settled, who will be excluded from the church next, a leper,
the obese, veterans with amputations, people of color, anyone with a tattoo or pierced ears? If gays are now officially considered to be too damaged and defective to be a Methodist, then what was ever the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan? Should a "good" Methodist ever, from now on, help someone on the road who has been robbed , beaten and left for dead? Should a "good" Methodist only associate with other nice white, God fearing, gun toting Republicans? When Christ said, "Love thy neighbor.", He did not add, "But only if you live in a restricted, gated community where you get to black ball all the undesirable applicants." . . .
26
What would make sense for most churches is to exclude only those without money or resources. Money-edness is next to godliness after all.
1
I am a United Methodist pastor. Since 1976 I have as strongly and passionately disagreed with my church's position on abortion. I know many of my colleagues feel as strongly and passionately about our church's position on sexuality. I chose not to leave the church or to violate any portion of our covenant together. I have never felt uncomfortable around those who hold a different view of abortion. I have many friends, clergy and lay persons who do not share my view, nor I theirs. I understand people's disappointment today. It hurts to lose a battle about which you feel great passion. Many are saying that today's decision will do great harm to the witness of the United Methodist Church. That may turn out to be true, but showing the world we cannot possible get along when we disagree and separate from the church will only serve to compound the damage. We can get along and do ministry together if we want to, and then only by the grace of God.
19
@Will Clegg
I agree with what you say and commented elsewhere about my non right to comment on UMC as I am not a member. But.............what about the Gay Parishioners and parishioners who have close loved ones who are LGBT. Might they decide to decamp from UMC as they feel that they are not fully welcome? I sure would not be part of a religious order than does not fully embrace me as a Gay Man and I hope my loved ones might join with me, away from such a setting.
6
@Will Clegg
So you are recommending that partnered gay pastors put away their spouses?
3
@Will Clegg Unless you are LGBTQ. Then you can't do ministry together because you can no longer become a clergy person or get married in the United Methodist Church if you are gay.
Further, had this vote taking place solely with clergy delegates within the USA, this vote would have lost in a landslide. It is only because of international conservative delegates that this draconian and punitive legislation was passed.
What's most appalling is that the "Christians" that voted for this, selectively choose quotes from the bible to enforce their biases, while ignoring the fact that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.
It is made worse because the Bishops overwhelmingly were against this proposal, and young people will want nothing to do with the United Methodist Church now because if it's open discrimination of gay people. They have doomed the church to irrelevance because they don't like "the gays." Shameful, shortsighted, and landing the wrong side of history.
9
Add Methodists to the long list of people to stay away from. Just kidding, they were already on the list.
9
If they do not wish to follow the rules, they should not practice the religion. Homosexuality is an abomination.
9
Very Christian of you. What happened to loving one’s neighbor as yourself?
Other than that golden rule, religion is very silly indeed.
6
@Jonathan - So apparently is eating shellfish according to Leviticus 11:9–12. Guess all these folks who voted for this rule and have chowed down at Red Lobster are going to have some explaining to do at the Pearly Gates.
3
When I read the Bible all the way through, I paid particular attention when I got to the story of Lot. There it was, the part most often quoted by conservatives. But there is more to God's criticism. There was hetero licentiousness as well and over materialism that offended God. Today, there are way too many materialistic Christian churches and churches who clearly define "love thy neighbor" to mean only family and other like minded church members. The Bible had something to say about that behavior too that is often overlooked.
My mother in law is a good methodist. Last time we visited, after dinner, she ranted to me about the homeless (she may have included the poor too). She did not want taxes spent on helping them. I said, "then you would prefer to have them dying on the street and have someone pick up the dead bodies instead?" Well, no, that wasn't what she wanted.
These are hard times economically as signified by the ever growing ranks of the homeless, the ever growing ranks of refugees who cannot find a country to accept them. I think I know what my mother in law wanted but did not want to put into words: she wanted these people to just disappear so she did not have to see them. I think my mother, who was born poor but is not any longer, feels the same way. They cannot speak the unspeakable out loud because it evokes images of the lowest point of the 20th century, when millions of people did just disappear.
1
A sad day for anyone of respect for Jesus.
9
"and in the name of the Holy Father, we throw our brothers and our sisters out in the street......amen"
Nice people.
130
Thank God that my church voted to uphold the Biblical definition of marriage. We welcome all in our churches, but the clear fact is that the New Testament preaches against homosexuality. An interesting poll was just taken of UMC members. Of those identifying as liberal, social justice was their number one concern. Winning souls for Jesus Christ was the number one concern for those identifying as conservative. Winning souls for Jesus is obviously the number one concern for the church, and it is one that the UMC voted to uphold today.
https://www.umnews.org/en/news/what-do-united-methodists-really-believe
19
@Ron Wilson Well said!
4
You are not going to have much luck winning souls for Jesus if you slam doors in people’s faces.
90
@Ron Wilson The good part of Illinois? You mean the rural, uneducated part? The good part of Illinois is Chicago, where there are excellent universities and world-class culture.
21
Is a vote the best way to settle this issue? Should a 3rd world perspective rule solely because of numbers? The idea that one should be voting on theology is fundamentally flawed. And for issues of equality and minority rights, democracy is ill suited.
A very similar vote happened a few years ago, so what progress has been made in bringing people together to support a unified vision? Any organization that splits itself 50-50 and then does it again is in trouble. The leaders of the church need to move toward a solution that brings both sides together with compromise and a path toward further alignment or the future will be worse for both sides.
6
@J In the Unitarian Universalist church, voting is actually part of our theology: our 5th principle affirms "The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large".
But with the voting history you describe, it sounds like there are two groups developing with pretty widely separated agendas. It might be time to separate, as amiably as possible, rather than try to find a compromise. That the conservatives actually strengthened the restrictions, rather than easing up even a little, is a bad sign. Good luck whatever happens!
5
There is, however, an irreconcilable difference between the UU view of faith and a Christian one: that we can be united by our worship of Jesus Christ and the unending love which gushes out of it.
Are we supposed to conform to society or continue to follow the rules of the bible? Scripture doesnt say just go with the flow or follow the next trend!
17
@Rebecca S
Exactly this! We should bring back slavery then, right? Sexual trafficking as a norm, too?
Because if society didn't decide to "go with the flow" on those issues and stuck with the "rules of the bible," this country would be a hellscape.
18
@Rebecca S
Door Number Three:
critical thinking.
3
Jesus Christ welcomes and loves gay people. All churches should be open to anyone regardless their sexual orientation. However, that does NOT mean the practice of homosexuality/LGBT aligns with the Bible. Christ loves all people, but not the sin they commit. We love the people, not the action/practice.
16
This line of argument is so tired. You do not truly love someone if you cannot accept them for who they are.
37
@Cindy Then don't be surprised if gay people, and importantly their young straight friends, stop showing up at your church.
I'm grateful that Christians don't all agree with what you wrote, because that means the eventual death of the church.
7
So I guess then if you found out a member of your family was a pedophile you would stop loving them since you are unable to distinguish between the person and the behavior.
5
It is interesting that had the other side prevailed in this
vote, would the Progressives have been as understanding as they ask the Conservatives to be ?
The Bible is quite clear that Marriage is only possible
between a man and a women and that they become
one after marriage and that children are the blessing
of being married.
Two people may be the best of friends, but that does not
make them married in the eyes of God.
The more Progressives move away from a Church
that follows the clear teachings of the Holy Scriptures,
as well meaning as Progressives are, the less Biblical they become and the more they seek to fulfil the desires of
humans and not the will of God.
35
@John Brown Yes, you've identified the problem quite nicely: Trying to reconcile ancient writings with modern reality. It's so much easier if you put aside what you were taught as a child and learn to think as an adult.
125
The message of Jesus’ teaching was one of radical inclusiveness and nothing about Bible idolatry.
182
@John Brown The Bible is in fact not clear or simple about marriage being between only a man and a woman. The Bible, for example in the Hebrew scriptures, also speaks of marriage between a man and several women, which most churches and civil law would now forbid. Jesus quotes from the Book of Genesis in one instance when he is asked about divorce. In a similar vein, the Bible also mentions slavery in ways that Christian churches used to interpret as reason to accept the institution of slavery. So, we do not, if we are being both honest and open to the continuing revelation of God through the Holy Spirit, accord the Bible higher status than the Holy Spirit. The story of God and God's relationship to humans is on-going, and not confined to the pages of the Bible. To think otherwise is to make of the Bible an idol, which we are cautioned many times not to do. It is the so-called traditionalists who are reading the Bible in a culturally contingent manner. It is downright insulting to insinuate
that "Progressives" and in particular LGBTQIA who seek to follow the Christ, are following an easy route, fulfilling their "desires". Nothing could be further from reality. They risk their very lives, as well as their livelihoods, to witness to God's call on their lives to be their whole, complete, beloved selves. To believe such people don't have as much moral rectitude as do you in their efforts to live out God's call on their lives is a affront to the God who made them and you.
111
Humankind was made in the image of God. He looked upon us with favor. Christ did not discriminate. Religion is not the problem. It is the misuse of religion. We know several gays who are devout Christians, except other "Christians" say they cannot be. Have faith though. In time all will be under the banner of Christ.
16
@JimVanM
Further to this, if we are all made in “God’s image” then God encompasses male and female, gay or straight, transgender, bi sexual and asexual. And that’s just the start.
Maybe we should stop listening to "God" (and those who claim to speak and hear "His" word) and start listening to each other as compassionate, understanding human beings. Maybe then we would realize we'd be better off if we embraced and rely on one another instead of "Him"...
34
@Matteo
"I watched in glee, while your kings and queens fought for ten decades, for the gods the made."
-Jagger/Richards
1
How sad you can deny and dismiss a whole class of people who are much better than you and then call it “comfort.”
@Matteo “Just because those rules hurt a minority doesn’t mean we are heartless “
Yes. Yes it does.
2
This is terribly sad. The Methodists, unlike the Episcopalians, decided to try to turn back the clock. It won’t work.
The Episcopal Church has done pretty well since reckoning with ordaining women and gay clergy. It has done pretty well since sanctioning same sex marriage. It has done pretty well since including transgender folks at all levels.
Again, too bad about the Methodists.
103
“Pretty well” is not good enough.
1
The hypocrisy of the church is mind-boggling. The world is ending, literally, and these people are still arguing over who is "Christian" enough for their pews and their altars. It is disgusting.
219
@Christopher Ross
Churches are simply sanctified ignorance enabled with my tax dollar.
1
Your a church what does GODs word say about it. END OF STORY!
4
The Bible explicitly condones and teaches slavery! END IF STORY!
1
The Presbyterian church will welcome you. Please stop by.
23
Just check out the particular Presbyterian church carefully. They are by no means all the same in their welcoming of LGBT people.
2
As a lifetime United Methodist, it's a sad day, but a new day will dawn. As the article said, some 60% of United Methodists in America affirm LGBTQ rights. A progressive branch of Methodism will grown out of this, and thrive.
28
Yikes. I almost joined Methodist church once until I learned of this ban. It is weird because my local Methodist Church, Grace Methodist, was the target of hare crimes as it hosts the LGBT youth group every week.
21
This is what we used to call “can’t win for losing”.
3
That's too bad - I thought that, even if they weren't reasonable, they would want to stay relevant.
107
@common sense advocate
Is the received definition of "reasonable" now alignment with secular norms and values over and against the teachings of one's faith across the course of millennia? That seems a capitulatiion more than a reasoned decision. I believe those dismayed by this vote are reasonable, intelligent people possessed of good intentions; would you allow that others could favor the traditional understanding of marriage and still be reasonable and decent people? That seems to me the bare minimum reason would require. Regarding relevance, as the second largest Protestant denomination, with seven million members worldwide, I doubt the Methodist Church will become the equivalent of the typewriter or Borders Books anytime soon. Indeed, there are those who will laud it for standing on principle, in defiance of the fickle moods and favor of mass culture, and I wouldn't be surprised if this draws some new congregants to the church. We shall see--but perhaps you would concede it may be premature to consign the Methodist Church to the dustbin of history just yet.
2
@Thomas Riddle - I just feel like it's not reasonable to get upset or judge people over what they do in their bedrooms. Let people have their privacy and judge them, instead, on the goodness, the empathy, and the inspiration they bring to a community.
11
Fair enough, and thank you. I fear religious traditionalists are often scorned for hewing to beliefs that have guided Western culture for centuries. That stirs some instinct in me to defend what's unpopular. To your point, natural law theory makes clear the importance of how we conduct our intimate affairs. If one believes we are created beings with a particular purpose, oriented towards particular ends, including our bodies, it matters tremendously what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms--to the extent such activities conform to our nature and purpose, and either bring us into closer union with the divine or alienate us from it. Thus the Catholic Church characterizes homosexuality as "intrinsically disordered." I disagree, but I do believe our sexual practices, even when freely consented to, have implications that extend beyond the private realm. If the standard is people's contributions to society, in terms of inspiration, goodness or empathy, why be dismayed if someone has sex with ten partners in the course of a year, so long as the sex is consensual and safe? Why balk at pornography as an aid to intimacy? Why object to plural marriage? This can all be consensual, it's all private, and none of it precludes empathy or kindness outside the bedroom. The question is one of cultural precedent: what coarsens a culture and its sensibilities, and what ennobles these things? Your view is laudably pragmatic and logical, but other virtues may be just as valid?
3
If today's vote had been among the American United Methodist delegates, it would have gone differently. The majority of American delegates support full inclusion of LGBTQ. The churches from Africa had over 40% of the vote, and are overwhelmingly opposed to inclusion.
25
This is a problem of evangelizing and converting people through global missions. In cases like this, it may come back to haunt you.
1
@Lyle Colombo
This is an important issue, underreported. Converts in Africa and Asia tend to be very conservative. I had a Christian taxi driver in Asia I used a lot; a kind but very bigotted man.
1
Too many of the things we do for God, Who loves all unconditionally, must surely bring Him horrible grief.
47
Many churches have gone the other direction! We have an openly queer pastor, in a very progressive, but traditional Presbyterian church. There is a place for all in a church, if you are seeking.
29
After decades of repeated heartbreaking rejections like this, I walked away and have no desire for church at all. Nice job UMC.
78
It must be pointed out that the vast majority of American UMC churches did not support the Traditional Plan that won the vote by a few percentage votes.
3
Having grown up in the UMC, this leaves me heartbroken. Jesus said, "This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you." John 15:12. The church has clearly lost sight of this and, after years of dwindling membership, driven the final nail in their own coffin.
60
@Karen You still can love the people as Jesus does and commands us to. However, LGBT practice is still incompatible with the Bible. It's not about not loving people. It's about not condoning what they do.
36
@Cindy, if you keep saying that to gay people, they and their young, straight friends will stop coming to your church.
Fortunately, not all Christians agree with your exclusive reading of the Bible, and there will be a place at other churches for these beloved children of God.
20
@Cindy eating shellfish is incompatible with the Bible. Eating pork and playing football are incompatible with the Bible Wearing a cotton/poly blend is incompatible with the Bible. Divorce is definitely incompatible with the Bible. Yet many churches are are fine with these things. Why single out LGBT love?
26
Methodists should thank God for The Gathering. It is literally the salvation of Methodism in the United States as it reverts to the early Church's embrace of the poor and oppressed. How dare any church declare that some people are outside of God's love. Such a church is bound to fail. The United Methodists should be evangelizing their African sisters ans brothers to offer Forcing African Methodists to be "on the dpwn low" will continue to spread AIDS and other STDs in a population that doesn't have the means to help them.
5
@Joe Kernan
Pls rewrite. I sincerely believe yiu have a good point here, but cannot quite understand it.
1
I realize that many churches and religions are fighting for a sanctuary from the secular in our modern times. I don't think this kind of thing would be happening if their parishioners were voicing strong objections to such discrimination. Tradition and social evolution are at war. Look at the Catholic church. Revolutionary time for religions steeped in tradition.
3
The Biblical injunctions against homosexuality are very clear. It is puzzling why gays want to be Christians and change the Church. Is anyone stopping them from starting their own "religion" that worship homosexual rights instead of sticking with the Christian church where homosexuality is a sin against God?
17
@Andrew Ton
Jesus never said anything about or against homosexuality. Even if you believe homosexuality is a sin, why choose only that sin for exclusion? The church accepts people who are divorced--Jesus explicitly claims that to be a sin. Who are we to judge?
93
@Andrew Ton There are plenty of
Christian churches and non-Christian religions that do not consider same-sex sexuality (which has existed in every known society) a "sin"
16
@Andrew Ton
Ouch! Gays are human beings, some of whom believe in Christ and want to practice that belief within a church. Their sexual orientation has nothing to do with that. They seek political rights that extend to all aspects of their lives, which includes participation in a Christian community. They are not interested in creating their own “religion,” although it seems clear some of those Methodists who were disappointed in the vote today will leave the traditional UMC. Sad.
14
Silver lining would be it’s progress. 54% against the LBGT proposal (449 to 374). 43% of delegates are from overseas, the majority from Africa from countries where LBGTs are illegal and considered criminals. Although perhaps something to reflect on as the form of discrimination based on skin colour is so widespread one would have thought that people who suffer from this might welcome diversity tolerance. But a biblical thing, which despite its original intentions, is used today as a very blunt weapon. Still, don’t give up hope, as the lyrics of one song goes “you can’t hurry love, you just have to wait, love don’t come easy it’s a game of give and take”
2
What a lack of vision. Or as my 14 year old argued, "They only want certain people. This is targeted advertising."
73
“And a child shall lead them”.”
8
While many African countries and their UMC delegations are anti-LGBTQ+, it obfuscates the theological colonialism Methodism that has been historically forced upon them. In Marc Epprecht's 2008 book, "Heterosexual Africa?: The History of an Idea from the Age of Exploration to the Age of AIDS," Epprecht argues that European imperialists played a significant role in bringing homophobia to Africa. So while it's convenient to blame more "traditional" peoples for this vote, it doesn't tell the whole story.
43
@Nate Crail: That's an interesting point, although blaming it on the imperialists doesn't make the modern homophobia go away. But it might be material for a campaign against it.
4
Any one may think for themselves and reach and act on their own conclusions at any time. Colonists are no longer forcing these countries to believe anything in particular. There is no worse ignorance that willfully chosen ignorance. Sorry but this excuse cuts no ice with me.
1
Even though they are declining, they don't want to become as irrelevant as the liberal American Episcopalian church.
13
“The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.”
You might have gotten away with a statement like that in 1972, but when you continue to perpetuate it in 2019 it’s so disingenuous, I think you have to call it a lie twice over: Christ never said anything about homosexuality; and there are other Christian denominations that embrace gay people. For accuracy and honesty, they should rewrite it to state the simple Godly truth:
“The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Methodist prejudice.”
384
@Peter Caleb - you forget how these kind of people operate. They"talk" to god so they know the ultimate truth...
15
@Peter Caleb The Word of God does NOT change. True Christian teachings are based on the Word of God, the Bible. The practice of homosexuality is indeed incompatible with Christian teaching. It is an abomination. Jesus Christ loves the people, not the sin they commit. It's clear that you have not read the Bible.
8
@Cindy
That’s just your interpretation and your belief, which you are welcome to.
The bible can be interpreted to fit whatever belief you embrace, and it usually is.
25
“Open Hearts. Open Minds. Open Doors,” They need to retire this slogan as it in no way aligns with this plan
339
Or at least keep it for any new progressive Methodist denomination that emerges as a result of the St. Louis vote.
7
@Lifelong Methodist
Substitute "closed" for "open" and you will have the true Methodist plan. Clearly methodists do not believe in "love thy neighbor as thyself"!
It confounds me how any Christian body can approve of same sex marriage. Being homosexual is not the sin, being sexually active with the same sex partner is the sin.
I can only reason "Christian" same sex partners want marriage equality is they do not believe the Bible is the divine Word of God, or are blind to its truths.
17
@VB Flyhunteer
There are many definitions and specifics of sin in Scripture. Here's one -- according to your divine Word of God -- the next time Flyhunteer enjoys a shrimp cocktail, she will be engaged in just as much a Levitican "abomination" as had she had same-sex relations.
Liking shrimp cocktail is not the sin, but eating one is the sin. Yet more bereft thinking from the people that take the bible literally instead of seriously.
65
@VB Flyhunteer Churches welcome the divorced despite that being a violation of the 10 commandments. The same with liars, thieves and even murderers. Next time you're in church consider that you are surrounded by sinners, children of God, who are loved by God despite your judgemental attitude.
22
@VB Flyhunteer The Bible does not say anything about same-sex marriage and Jesus did not say anything about same-sex sexuality. Paul condemns same-sex sex but not marriage. By the way, Jesus unequivocally condemns divorce and remarriage. Is your church "blind to that truth"??
23
As soon as I learned that African congregations would have substantial say in the matter, I lost my optimism that the Methodists would fully embrace gay and lesbian people. Africa is a global epicenter of anti-gay prejudice and hate.
146
@Alex Could you please explain to me how being against same sex couples is hate?? I feel the hate is on your part for not accepting difference of opinions.
12
Ummm … are you serious? You hate the very thing that defines them. Doesn’t that sound to you like “hate?”
17
@VB Flyhunteer
a "difference of opinion" over someone's humanity IS hate.
38
So much for Jesus' preaching of love for everyone. "Christianity" avoids Jesus' teachings as much as possible.
52
@Jeff In this specific case, Methodists is more fitting than "Christianity". Not all Christians fit that description.
6
@Jeff You clearly have not read the Gospel and the Bible as whole.
1
@Cindy
Show us quotes from Christ, not from the Old Testament please. Which was rejected by Jesus.
3
What is wrong here? Why would you not be inclusive, and loving to all? Open arms, open heart, acceptance, embrace of neighbor...are these all not values whatever God you believe in offered in his or her teachings?
26
How very sad that anyone should be discriminated against. It is a myth and a distortion that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.” Christian 'teaching' is wholly man-made. What would Jesus say to Methodists? He said 'love your neighbor" and did not say "except gay people"!
222
As a retired United Methodist clergyman who worships in the Episcopal Church, I am deeply saddened but not surprised by the actions of the General Conference. The split between literalist members and progressives dates back to at least the middle of the last century, and the die was cast at the 1972 General Conference which declared homosexual practice as incompatible with Christian belief. A lifetime of my ministry was wasted trying to reason with the unreasonable. I now look to support those who want to create a more inclusive denomination outside of the UM church, though for myself I am delighted to be a part of the "Mother (Episcopal) Church", which Methodists split from centuries ago.
150
@kingfisher1950 Two simple question for you.
1. Was there a virgin birth of the Christ?
2. Did Christ rise from the dead?
The answer to those two questions will say a lot about how you view Scripture.
@VB Flyhunteer
Re #1. There is no claim anywhere in the New Testament that Mary was a virgin in the sense that the word is used today. The Latin simply means young woman. All the narratives on virgin birth and Mary’s own immaculate conception and perpetual virginity, are later accretions
Did Christ literally rise from the dead? Probably not. Much of the post crucifixion narrative Is metaphor and most was written down long after those who had been around at the time were dead. As for the ascension into heaven, that story is based on an earth centric planetary system which is simply impossible to believe today.
Think in this way in no way prevents me from calling myself Christian. I would refer you to Paul’s words beginning “when I was a child I spoke as a child... when I became a man, I put away childish things.” There are too many Sunday Scool Christians laying down the law, and not enough mature adults spending the time to drill down into two millennia of fascinating Christian theology and thought.
31
@VB Flyhunteer My answer to both your questions is YES. Though it is important to point out that no major Christian doctrine in the NT is based on the virgin birth. Biblical literalists often major on minors, failing to distinguish between the essentials of the faith and culturally "located" or relative in the Bible. The issue of homosexuality is a case in point. Society in those days was built around the "household", a male dominated extended "family" (including slaves) that had economic as well as social power. There was no stable place for gay relationships, which threatened the social order (no procreation, essential in the days of high mortality and the need for many laborers.) Coupled with a prescientific understanding of sexuality, it is no wonder that homosexual relationships were condemned (as well as women's equality!). We don't require women to wear veils or stay silent in church as the Bible dictates, because this no longer threatens our social or economic order. With gays it is the same. We now have structures that allow them to have stable relationships and make positive contributions, which is at the heart of biblical faith. But if you insist that all parts of the Bible are "equal" in import, then I suggest you take seriously the admonition of St. Paul to avoid marriage and sex entirely, since it is a "distraction" from spreading the gospel.
8
Next up: Methodist church ponders why membership is falling.
196
@CLH It may be falling in the decadent USA, but it is growing in Africa.
12
@JackC5
And they can have it.
9
Yes indeed. These views are definitely growing in the poorest and least educated populations of the world.
10
I thought that we were moving forward with this sort of thing, not backward. Disappointing news.
54
The Episcopal Church welcomes you!
220
@mrken57
Thank you!
7
@mrken57 The real world in all its complex glory, free from the deities and dusty scriptures of our childhood, welcomes you!
30
@Michael I'm a part of that as well. In the meantime, for me, it's reassuring to know that there is something greater than ourselves where I can find a sense of peace. Does it have to be either/or?
10