certainly your ideas lacks sanity. India's Moddi government is staging this drama to benefit in general elections by creating chaos in the region as Nationalism is the last refuge of scoundrels as said by Churchill. Two months before elections I see him as the only beneficiary. Indian surgical strike haven't done much in Paks, but will sure do a lot in the ballot box:-)
1
The whole world knows that there are terrorist training camps operating within Pakistan. Maybe because the terrorists’ main target is India it did nothing to stop their activities. And maybe for the same reason it hasn't uttered a word of condemnation even after Jaish-e-Mohammad, one of the terrorist groups operating within its borders, claimed responsibility for the recent suicide bombing in Kashmir that killed 40 (by the latest count) Indian soldiers. What India has done now is what Pakistan should have done long ago. If only it had, the further straining of the relations between these two nuclear-armed South Asian neighbors that we are witnessing now could have been avoided.
Compared with what India has accomplished – striking at “the biggest training camp” of Jaish-e-Mohammad – the minor transgression it has committed in crossing its border with Pakistan is fully justified. Instead of condoning it, Prime Minister Imran Khan of Pakistan is said to be contemplating retaliation against India. Where was he when terrorists from his country were freely crossing the same border to carry out their nefarious activities in India? He should know that his promise of retaliation would be met with applause from a section of his country's armed forces, with whose blessing the terrorists have been operating. It takes only one wrong decision by one person to wreak havoc. The bomb that the next terrorist explodes in Kashmir could be a nuclear bomb, Mr. Khan may please note.
Innuendo that strike has any relation to forthcoming elections is nonsensical. This hypothesis assumes that Indians should accept Jaish-i-Muhamad terrorist attack gracefully and not react at all. I wonder what the US or any other country would have done if the terrorist attack was done in that country.
The main reason that thousands of Hindu girls had been abducted, raped and converted, with full blessings of Judiciary, is for a mindset that subhuman Hindus should accept being treated like one.
3
Indians will never forget or forgive Pakistan for its active support 2008 Mumbai attacks by 10 members of Lashkar-e-Taiba, an Islamic terrorist organization based in Pakistan, carried out a series of 12 coordinated shooting and bombing attacks lasting four days across Mumbai. 174 people died, and more than 300 were wounded.
Nor will they forgive the political leadership of Man Mohan Singh of that time, responding pathetically to the challenge from the rogue nation Pakistan. Even if Singh had shown fraction of the spine of Modi, the region would have been far safer than today.
Over whelming majority of patriotic Indians feel vindicated by Indian Air Force destruction terror infrastructure well into the territory of Pakistan.
Doubting Thomas’s call for the proof of bombing will surely get photo evidence of the attack filmed by the Drone in not too distant future.
We Indian are deeply indebted for the Israeli help modernizing Indian Air Force. Addition shortly of Russian S 400 Triumf anti aircraft system will make IAF a formidable force to reckon with.
If Pakistan claims that JeM camps moved (somewhere in Pakistan) because of the earthquake in 2005, aren't they inadvertently admitting to their harboring of JeM training camps on their soil?.
2
To get to the root of the problem, one can start during the partition. While India evolved into a secular democracy, Pakistan gravitated into a combination of extremist Islam and military control. As the military and its intelligence arm, the ISI coveted greater control and power, its only avenue with the Pakistani society was to permeate a strong hatred and fear for India. Pakistani school children have been fed this poison for the last 70 plus years to the point that it is the only India they know (besides the pirated Bollywood movies). Kashmir is only an excuse for Pakistan to create terror. If Kashmir did not exist, they would have found some other convenient reason. The root of all problems including Pakistan being at the forefront of fomenting Islamic terror across SE Asia is its military and the ISI. Today, the Pakistani military establishment owns huge swaths of prime land across the country which they dole out to the generals as a part of their service. Its treachery to even its so-called "friends" was evident with their clandestine support and shelter of Osama Bin Laden. This is a failed nation that has a nuclear arsenal which they will readily sell to the Saudis (who should be the last nation on earth to have such weapons). This week Trump is meeting Kim because of North Korea's nuclear weapons. Any guesses who helped the North Koreans to attain this capability? It is time that civilized nations around the world hold this rogue nation accountable.
4
I do wonder if there is any evidence to confirm the destruction of terrorist infrastructure and kill of 300-400 people, satellite imagery should be the easiest one to compare!
we have seen and heard of such many air strikes in the past done by superpowers, and thousands of people dead in the process, but what was really achieved?
No wonder its election year in India, and looking at PM Modi's past record as chief minister, such claims and theatrics will be used to win the votes using the nationalist sentiments of the Indian people.
The real loss here is of Kashmiri people in India, who will have to suffer more from this jingoistic mindset of the Indian BJP government.
PrimeMinister Imran Khan should avoid war at all cost. Pakistan should go to the United Nation and avoid war because if war happens thousands of innocent lives will be lost. War will never solve issues between both states. America was constantly at war with the Taliban for so many years and at the end, they had to sit down and talk peacefully with them. We should learn from the mistakes of America and should not spark a war between both countries.
3
@Fasih Ullah
That is a nice suggestion. Better still is to break up the network of terrorist organizations or stop supporting them, and sit down with India and discuss and look for solutions for every problem including Kashmir.
1
Pakistan has been long needing a slap on its face for their cowardly incursions into India and attacks on India. India has never attacked Pakistan. The previous wars were all started by an envious, failed country that distracts its population by these kinds of terrorist actions in India. It is high time that Pakistan was taken down, not just by India but by all countries long suffering from the scourge of terrorists bred and nurtured in Pakistan! Kashmir does not belong to Pakistan and never will. In fact, India needs to take back the one-third of Kashmir that is on the Pakistan side as reparation for these constant attacks. Plus India should follow China's policy of re-populating Kashmir with non-Muslims, specifically, the Kashmiri pundits who were driven out of the state. No more religious state in Kashmir!
7
The escalation of tension between two nuclear armed countries is a cause of concern for the world community and every effort should be made to prevent a full fledged war which would have devastating effects.Seven decades long dispute and thirty years of armed insurgency/militancy has brought untold miseries to Kashmir people who are at the receiving end of this conflict.This dispute must be resolved once and for all for lasting peace in Indian sub continent.
7
During peace keeping mission(1987-89) in northern part of Sri Lanka, India army had raped at least 4,000 Tamil women and girls in Jaffna, Sri Lanka. Indian army is one of the brutal armies when it comes to raping and killing. Imagine if they can do that kind of brutalities in peace keeping mission, what would they do to Kasmir women and girls when they're stationed as advisory forces in Kasmir? And I believe the Pulwama attack was a false flag by BJP and RAW in order to influence BJP's reelection campaign.
The airstrikes Indians claim are more like of their masala movies to hoodwink general mass into vote bank. Being biggest democratic country to allow 150k Tamils getting slaughtered in 2009 in their backyard shows they've lost any remaining moral values.
1
Pakistan:"If India builds the bomb, we will eat grass and leaves for a thousand years, even go hungry, but we will get one of our own. The Christians have the bomb, the Jews have the bomb and now the Hindus have the bomb. Why not the Muslims too have the bomb? " (1965) These kind on sentiments, such passion, could spark annihilation. Nuclear war happens when the balance of power gets imbalanced, like India growing by leap and bounds. There were rules put in place about two years ago, in Pakistan, that if India crossed the border, and got to the cities, the local generals made the nuclear call. Dangerous times.
3
I think Pak army / Pak politicians don't support jihadis any longer. ISI/Terrorist/Drug cartel nexus has become more powerful than Pak state. Aided and abetted by China (why the heck does China rule over part of Kashmir? It's within their nine dash line is it?). So maybe Pak army welcomes India's intervention. They can get rid of the menace without dirtying their hands or earning opprobrium from their friends, Saudis and Chinese.
3
for those who think Kashmir is a disputed territory and indian.
Lord Mountbatten believed the developing situation would be less explosive if JK were to accede to India. According to the terms of the Instrument of Accession of Kashmir, India's jurisdiction was to extend to external affairs, defense and communications. It was a legitimate treaty, which Pakistan never liked.
26 October, 1947, Hari Singh fled from Srinagar, arriving in Jammu later in the day, where he was met by V P Menon, representative of Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, and signed the Instrument of Accession. There are conflicting reports about when and how this Instrument of Accession was signed.
Although Pakistan signed a standstill agreement with Kashmir, it immediately violated the treaty by cutting off essential supplies like food and oil to Kashmir with the obvious intent of forcing its accession. Next, Pakistan began to organize raids on Kashmir, distributing free arms, ammunition, & supplies to the population near the border. The Kashmiri Prime Minister made two formal requests to the Pakistani government to stop the continuous border raids, but Pakistan resolutely denied both its support of the raiders and the actions of the raiders themselves. However, in early May of that year, it admitted, of its own volition, its sponsorship of the raiders but called its intervention a spontaneous and sympathetic response to the indigenous Kashmiri revolt that occurred after Hindus massacred Muslims there.
4
Vow these comments by Pakistanis/Kashmiri but nobody talking about Pakistanis/Kashmiris killing miamed Indians who are living there too. Remember they did the same during the partition but when Sikhs retaliated they ran away are blaming Sikhs to this day. Pakistan/Kashmir know that using nuclear or non-nuclear weapons against India cannot win Kashmir for them. Pakistan was hiding Bin Laden openly. Best they can do is try live a normal life instead of blowing people up. India has done a lot of development for Kashmir unlike Pakistani bit.
2
Gandhi said that all people have the right of self determination. He said that there was no cause he would kill for but there were many causes he was ready for to die for. Sadly, the people of India don’t follow their great leader. They yearn for violence. They want to forcibly subjugate and occupy a people and a land whose only desire is the right of self determination. This issue is not about India or Pakistan. It is about the people of Kashmir. Let them have their plebiscite. Let them have their freedom.
3
India has 13% Muslim population, second largest Muslim population in world after Indonesia. If these 13% move over to Pakistan or now Bangladesh, India should leave Kashmir. Remember, India was divided based on religion in 1947 and all these Muslims in India are actually Muslim Converts under DURESS. But hey....India is a secular country, unlike its neighbors.
3
As a person of Indian origin, I have often wondered why we fight about Kashmir. Make no mistake this is a proxy war over that piece of land.
I have a solution. Give Kashmir to Pakistan. You heard me right. Give it to them. A gift if you will. Let's see what they do with it.
Here's where I generally get asked, "But if we give them Kashmir today, they'll ask for Punjab tomorrow. Then what?" And my answer is, "Then we exterminate them. We wipe them clean off the face of the earth." The thing is, if you make a huge song and dance about how India is being mature, generous and forward thinking when we "donate" Kashmir to Pakistan, and make dead sure that the world sits up and takes note of the action, then they can't ask for more. That's literally giving us the gun and asking us to shoot them.
Pakistan is a failing (failed?) state. The politicians there need India as a foil to keep the population in check. Let's take the excuse away from them. When "big bad India" is no longer killing "freedom fighters" in Kashmir, who will their politicians blame?
2
@AA I read you comment, and bro half of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir is already occupied by Pakistan. Your though of gift and wait until they start new demand is just foolish. Would you be happy to give away your backyard or a single room from your house to the neighbor who troubles you?
Time has come that India take a final step, divide Pakistan in peaces and let each peace have destiny to choose peace or war with India. I am sure majority of these peaces will choose peace with India and a left overs could be handled by other peaces of land.
1
Let’s have the UK give away Northern Ireland to join Ireland. Or better still, let’s have the United States give back California to Mexico.
What you are asking for is appeasement. Of Pakistan. By India.
Won’t happen.
1
I am flabbergasted at how people forget where was Osama bin Laden was hiding for 10 years. Suddenly, people see some moral equivalency between India and Pakistan. Terrorism from Pak comes from religion. How is India’s action religious. If US defends itself, people think it’s ok, but India cannot. Sheer hypocrisy, lack of knowledge of history and demography of some people here is astounding!
9
There was a rush to judgement by India without any tangible proof making a delicate situation worse and bowing to the electorate. Where this is going to end is anybody's guess
2
@denali Oh come on !!! The recent Pulwama attack is already been proudly claimed by Jaish-E-Muhammad, the Pakistani terroirst organisation headed by UN designated Masood Azhar, do you still need a time to play around the papers that is so called 'prooves'.. turning a blind eye won't help..
4
War mongering through Indian media has surpassed expectations, it is as if they don't understand what happens in a war.
Without any proof, based on historical circumstantial evidence, driven by election frenzy India just unilaterally assessed and initiated action. And pulled off a PR stunt while risking a full blown escalation.
India is willing to make all efforts, so far failing, to isolate Pakistan but doing nothing towards resolving the plight of Kashmir.
Pakistan has made its fair share of mistakes but this isn't on Pakistan and if recent coverage is any proof, politicians, generals, media in PK has largely been focused on resolving the situation, notwithstanding the case of Kulbushan even. India on the other hand is bent upon getting more people killed in war to somehow avenge those who died on 14th Feb.
What logic demands more loss of life to redeem the deaths of those who died before.
1
India should use resources in fighting Hindu fundamentalism and Pakistan should use resources in fighting Islamic fundamentalism. There is no reason to fight each other, they have enough internal issues to deal with. Both countries have millions of people who do not have enough to eat, why spend money on military?
4
Notwithstanding the farce that is India’s claim to being “the world’s largest democracy” (refuse disposal is more like it) and Pakistan’s public pronouncements to respect the “rule of law”, neither claim is true. Moreover how these backward behemoths became nuclear powers has, after having visited each, escaped me. Especially in the downtrodden and arid land that is Pakistan, I cannot understand how their limited resources brought them into the small clique of nuclear nations. Let’s hope that the hotheads that dominate both country’s political elites keep calm. But sooner or later...
3
@ManhattanWilliam Bro, it is the USA, and your tax payer's money (could be yours too) that has helped Pakistan to carry nukes. The USA's aid has also used to blackmail the world on the name of nuclear weapons by Pakistan. And today a bankrupt Pakistan is now selling this technology (that they also stole from Canada, gifted by China) to other countries in black market.
3
The global media and their readers must understand the fact that India had its own threshold for terrorism. It was breached on 14th of Feb when a terrorist blew up himself by killing 40 Indian soldiers. Even a liberal, fair thinking, peace loving, moderate Indian has had to change his mindset to avenge the heinous suicide attack which was aided and supported by Pak. Pakistan state didn't even condemn the killings (sic). Post that attack, there has been a paradigm shift very importantly within the major opposition parties in India who usually find fault in PM Modi's every decision makings. They all now have vociferously supported the pre-emptive, non-military cross border strikes. Message being sent out is very clear. No sane sovereign state tolerates terrorism any longer. One can claim that they are non-state actors. The fact that Indian stock market didn't over react and nose dive proves India and other foreign investors support India's military action against Pakistan and its right to defend itself. Even if this spirals into a short term direct war, the loser is predecided. It will definitely be Pakistan in all sorts economically, politically and militarily.
7
I have no dog in this fight. From afar though, a couple of observations. India seems to suffer terrorist attacks and, as far as we know, does not sponsor terrorism. Not so Pakistan.
But.
Kashmir is a thorn in the side of a seemingly peaceful nation that is uninterested in any form of colonialism. What to say to a young Kashmiri who feels oppressed by the Indian army? Where is their choice?
No easy answers, for sure. The onus, I think, is on Pakistan to back off. Then on India to reflect on the long term.
It is sad that people who are very similar in so many ways inflict so much pain on each other. Peace, I hope.
4
Instead of beating around the bush - let us correlate One simple parameter.
Polity and statecraft systm : India stable with 2nd highest Muslim population of the world after Indonesia. A democracry without ever any constitutional crisis or non civilian government.
Pakistan : Unstable, liquid and volatile. Same accusations as India made, usually raised by it's bordering states i. e Iran and Afghanistan despite both Islamic countries unlike India-a secular nation.
While India is now almost in the club 'nation in reckoning' - position of Pakistan? Apparently, pathetic and regressive. International community are not ostrich, that these facets could miss our cognition.
Point is, who did start the present escalation ? Definitely, JeM (overground dirty job boy of most powerful ISI, the notorious spy agency - infamous for OBL Abbotabad hide out too)
And being neutral, we can't put goggles with spectral filter to twist the reality. Perhaps, no country would sit idle, if their security and safety machinery personals made canon fodder, not to mention innocent civilians and non combatants. Here from our clear conscience and unbiased consciousness, just can put the point - India does have a strong case to protect itself from such indoctrinated and mind dead homicidal zombies. Every thinking person might agree, if they put themselves in India's position.
8
Past governments of the USA have turned a blind eye to the many terrorist groups built and aided by Pakistan only to see them turn against USA itself. It is nice that the present administration does not maintain that posture and is willing to let a fellow democracy defend itself. Pakistan's complicity is evident from the proximity of this training camp to the place where Bin Laden was hidden by its ISI.
9
I remember an interview of a local shopkeeper in India a few years ago. He said India was too crowded, too many people, and that there should be a war to thin out the population. It was just an off hand comment but the editors of the program did choose to show it, and he made the comment.
Perhaps neither country has enough nuclear bombs to destroy the planet, just thin out the population a little.
2
There could be better ways to control population.
2
The history between both nations is well documented, over their 72 years of existence. Some salient points:
India has been a stable democracy for that entire period.
It is secular, and allows all religions/people to coexist.
It never waged war on another nation, unless for defense.
It has become one of the world's top leaders/economies.
It was among the first 5 to build nuclear bombs on its own.
It was among the first 5 to fly into space on its own.
It was among the first 3 to land on Mars, on its own.
It dwarfs all of tis neighbors, in every statistic.
It is peaceful and helps all of its friendly neighbors.
Pakistan has been a theocracy for all of its history.
It has been ruled by its military for most of its history.
It has had violent overthrows of its civilian leaders.
It has waged war against its neighbors many times.
It sponsors terrorism, and does little to stop terrorists.
It hid Osama Bin Laden on its land, for years (it is why the US did not notify Pakistan when it flew in to capture him).
Pakistani Muslims have a lower standard of living than Muslims living in India.
It has atrocious civil liberties, especially against females & non-Muslims.
-----
Given the situation, India's best interest is to develop Pakistan into a stable democracy.
It can do so only by:
- don't incite Pakistan's militant gov't into war-mongering
- show its military superiority, with few Pakistani deaths
- encourage/push Pakistan to stop terrorism
- encourage a civilian democratic gov't
9
Actually, Indian jets crossed into Pakistani-controlled Indian territory (Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir or PoK). They never technically crossed into Pakistan, but merely bombed the JeM training camps.
7
The most likely place for a nuclear war to happen is between India and Pakistan.
It's also been determined that if they exchange there arsenals on each other the effects would be severe enough to create a global nuke winter.
At least the NYT mentioned it.
The cable news outlets are still on Kim/Trump.
5
Looks like both Countries have too many dangerous toys and both are in dire need of adult supervision
4
I want to thank the governments of India and Pakistan for providing the world with graphic evidence of what comes from stoking religious and national hatred both inside and outside their respective territories. Instead of working to reach a peaceful solution to the Kashmir dispute, the leaders of these two countries prefer to score political points with their individual populations. The impoverished residents of these countries will never achieve prosperity as long as they accept such "leadership."
3
Nobody talks about the actual issue i.e. Kashmir.
Kashmiris has seen violence for the past 70 years. Remember the pallet guns used by the Indian Army to blind the civilians and much more. Now those young guys who have lost their grandparents, parents, brothers/sisters, are in to take revenge. They will seek help from forces who don't want peace in that region. This will continue until there is a permanent solution. War is never a solution and it's us PakIND public who is giving fuel to this warmongering that could end up costing thousands of more lives. Keep calling those Kashmiris, terrorist, who are seeking freedom from Indian violence, would never solve this problem. India claims Kashmir is an integral part of India and continues to kill Kashmiris every single day? Kashmiris faced enormous violence throughout Ind after Pulwama attack - so much for an integral part of Ind. What are you going to achieve by blaming Pakistan, nothing!
There is ego on both sides of the border, and any escalation would end up costing more lives. It's not a game, many more soldiers would die including civilians. Is that what we want? Social media is mostly fueling this warmongering, nobody is talking to defuse the situation but revenge. Both nations are nuclear armed but their citizens live below the poverty level.
Would not it be good if we go on the streets asking for peace instead of asking for revenge? Two wrongs don't make a right. You can't be peace-loving and demanding revenge.
30
@Usman:
Your "version" is wrong and fails to mention essential details: that Kashmir has been a Hindu region for most of its history until the 1980s. In 1947 it chose to become an Indian state after independence from Britain. Pakistan never liked this decision by Kashmir and its people. Since then, Pakistan has tried to overthrow Kashmir (and Jammu).
Kashmir has been a Hindu region, so for many decades Pakistan supported violent Muslims to infiltrate into Kashmir and to "land grab". These militants accomplished two goals for Pakistan: (1) they waged violence in Kashmir, making local Hindus flee to other parts of safer India, and (2) they occupied land that departing Kashmiri people left. India's policy has been to prohibit legal ownership of land in Kashmir unless you/your family owned it before 1954. This means, illegal insurgents now occupy large parts of Kashmir, illegally and violently.
So today, Kashmir has fewer HIndus (because they fled to avoid Pakistan-fueled Islamic violence). The Muslim population grew - because of insurgents who came in, and from their having more babies for decades. Today, Kashmir is majority Muslim - due to Pakistan's half-century of insurgency. They want to "overthrow" Kashmir from the "inside".
The situation is a bit like that of Gaza (Israel-Palestine). However India was not as forceful as Israel, and so Pakistan's Muslim terrorists are rampant.
India attacks illegal/violent terrorists, and never targets legal/peaceful Muslim Kashmiris.
27
We are fighting Taliban, ISIS and other terrorists around the globe. India is not as powerful and as rich as we are, but they are strong enough to take care of terrorists in their neighborhood. They should actively engage and destroy the terrorists in Pakistan irrespective of sensitivities of Pakistan government or its military leadership. If Pakistan military interferes, destroy them as well without a fear that it leads into a war. Pakistan army aiding and abetting terrorism and destruction of terrorism may require destruction of Pakistan military. After that, India can sweep the terrorists out of the region. It may take years, but terrorism will not come to an end unless India takes first steps.
31
But who has control of the Nukes? What if India and Pakistan both launch simultaneously?
6
@BorisRoberts But who has control of the Nukes? What if China and USA and Russia, all launch simultaneously?
8
@Kodali
Are you serious? You are talking about a full fledged war against a country to deal with some terrorist organizations? Which country will allow others coming in and taking military action without responding in kind? The examples you state are from countries that did not have organized military or were already downtrodden (Afghanistan was broken before 9/11, Iraq was not doing great, Syria was dealing with civil war, etc.).
"India can sweep the terrorists out of the region" - No, your recommended actions will generate lots more terrorists than India would be able to handle.
6
Being the first hand victim of this Kashmir fight, between two neighboring countries, which had till date consumed many people, i can tell you that for world around it is must to bring two countries on table. As, the Idealistic posturing is making the situation uglier here and God forbid this adventurism can someday prove wrong for this world. Unfortunately, in this part of the world the thirst of power seems to be quenched by bloodbath only. The immaturity of politicians and jingoistic media are actually adding fuel to this conflict without giving thought to fact that we too will become the victims of that war which for some TRP's are inflicted on a commoner.
The world seems losing it's foot in making people bound to maintain calm. UN had become the mouth piece of few influential people who make it to dance on their fingers. As the organization is not effectively making any mark on ground.
Let me tell you that though it is night time here and everything looks apprently calm but in reality no one is sleeping here today due to the military escalation on borders as well ground.
The unfortunate part of this whole drama is that people are enjoying now even death of another person who like them is poor and whimsical about his future.
So, my request is simple and straight and that is let's piece prevail again here.
14
I have no problem in accepting all claims being made by the BJP government and Indian anchors about the alleged air strike. Let us admit that the strike has happened and 350-400 JeM militants, including trainers and leadership, have been killed. Let's not ask for evidence like bodies, funeral prayers, burials etc. Which means there will be no attacks on Kashmir soil. Pakistan has been taught a lesson. Let's not argue or ask questions. Let Modiji win next general elections. Pakistan has been defeated. Kashmiris defeated. Kashmir dispute resolved. Delhi won. Modi won. Anchors won. Now please release all Kashmiri political prisoners, revoke AFSPA, DAA, PSA, and demilitarise. Can we start breathing normally now?
14
@Zia Naqi
Please convince Kashmiris to allow Indians to allow their countrymen from the rest of the country to buy real estate and settle down peacefully like it happens every where in the world including Canada and the U.S.A.
I am sure everyone can start breathing normally once that happens.
7
@Zia Naqi
oh yah.. when Pakistan stops sponsoring terrorists, day becomes normal in Kashmir valley.
8
@KVT
perhaps misdoings of Indian Army in Occupied Kashmir is the reason behind reaction of oppressed suicidal bomber youths.
1
One nuclear power launches air strikes on another nuclear power. They've already fought three full scale wars in the last 50 years. What could go wrong?
Reckless.
They came to the edge of nuclear strikes one time, and both the Soviets and the US rushed experts to both capitals with detailed briefings on the effects of being hit with nuclear weapons. The lesson -- it is not usable, don't be a fool.
They really don't seem to have realized that the last time.
Do they realize it now?
Pakistan has a plan for "safe" use of nuclear weapons. They think they can use them on any Indian forces inside Pakistani territory, and nuking "themselves" will be safe.
Meanwhile, India plans to rush forward an invasion into Pakistani territory, because of course they would not nuke themselves -- safety from a nuclear strike by hugging the opposition.
These two ideas mesh to produce nuclear war. They know that. They plan it anyway. Both think it is all a bluff from the other side.
This airstrike is playing with matches inside a powder magazine or on the deck of a gasoline tanker.
Of course they must work this out. They can't do it with force. That is a mistake the US has been making, and demonstrating failure. Take the lesson.
13
@Mark Thomason
India has a no first use nuclear policy.
It is Pakistan that seems to think that use of a nuclear bomb is viable. And under the protection of the so called nuclear umbrella - is using "non-state" actors to try and bleed India by way of a 1000 cuts.
Then it conveniently asks for proof.
Perhaps Pakistan does not have any control over its 'non-state' actors - and if that is so - it needs to confess to that - so that India can then take actions in order to neutralize them - even if they are within Pakistan.
2
@Zam
and what about this umbrella under which whole India lives "blaming Pakistan and ISI for whatever happens there" it serves extremely well before general elections and I am sure Indian strike couldn't do much in Paks a part from violating International border but did an excellent job of deluding the nation of 1.34 billion people.
This is actually the most likely way humanity expires. India has gotten itself an overly religious leader, Pakistan has always been too fanatical, their religions despise each other, and they both have nuclear weapons.
Someday, if we're not lucky, India and Pakistan will start firing nuclear missiles at each other, both assured that they'll go straight to their version of heaven because they're killing infidels. Russia, China, and the U.S. will get pulled into it, and that will be the end of humanity.
So I hope cooler heads prevail, but this sort of messing around really proves how pointless and insignificant Trump's dating Kim Jong Un is.
2
@Dan Stackhouse You'll need to go through this personally to call this 'messing around'. 14 days back, pak based terrorist group took the responsibility of pulwama attack. Read it again: they took the responsibility, India did not assume that they did it. Pak can deny that they dont harbor terrorist; guess where was osama bin laden found? They have attacked indian soil for years, 26/11, patankot, bombay blasts, list can go on and on. Loss of life, on either side is not wjhat one desires, but this time, Modi called their bluff! I wish pak would spend all this time, money and effort on developing its own people so they don't go astray. But alas, that would be a culture and philosophy chance for the entire country which is an impossible task!
2
@Dan Stackhouse Unfortunately for your narrative, Hinduism neither has a concept of "heaven" in the Abrahamic sense, nor a concept of "infidels", again, in the Abrahamic sense. That's because it is not a monotheistic prescriptive religion, but a pantheistic way of life that welcomes and incorporates new ways of thinking (including Atheism - yes, look up Samkhya philosophy).
Such false equivalences do a massive disservice to humanity and the world.
2
Dear Ayushi,
I understand your point, but compared to a single nuclear detonation, all of this is just messing around. Less than a hundred dead is an unnoticeable death tally. Sorry about that, looking at the big picture here.
Dear Smilingbuddha,
It doesn't matter in the slightest. Fanatics are fanatics, and they're a problem, the technical terms for their antiquated beliefs mean nothing. If Modi wants to attack Pakistan because they're not Hindu, then it hardly matters what he calls them, right?
killing innocent Kasmiris , making them blind, raping women and burning shops is not terrorism?? ,Mudi government has allowed greater humanitarian violations in Indian Occupied Kashmir than ever before , the world talks about nukes , restraint etc .there is not a single word for humans living in that area. when army personals die there is a hype in media ,and when we die , there is no panic.
7
Really in an ideal situation, one nuclear warhead will be detonated in Jammu/Kashmir, rendering it lifeless and worthless, and this insane religious feud over the territory could stop right there. Sure, a few hundred thousand people would die, but that's really nothing compared to the population of these two overly religious nuclear powers. If it's limited to one nuclear detonation, we'll have gotten extremely lucky.
Missing from this discussion is how India has treated its citizens in Kashmir which seems to be core of the problem. Since the last thirty years; over half a million Indian soldiers sit in Indian Kashmir which according to India is not occupied.
The human rights abuses against the population are well documented and have never been addressed by the Indian government. Instead of addressing the demands of its citizens, India has decided to suppress the population and has labeled the entire muslim population of Kashmir as terrorists.
When these people whose lives are filled with violence, respond with violence; India points the finger at Pakistan and the cycle of violence continues. Imagine living in these conditions.
I don't know if Pakistan has carried out any activity in Kashmir, but I can tell you that the policy of suppression by the Indian government against its citizens and the apathy of Indian media towards the excesses in Kashmir, means that India is loosing Kashmir.
8
Obviously the propaganda departments of the two countries are not at sync. Pakistan should be decrying the loss of civilian lives due to the Indian strikes, even while conceding that the strikes killed militants also. A symmetry needs to be established between the body counts on both sides of the border, real and spurious. Thereafter, no further action will be needed by either country, and the defense establishments of the two countries can return to their routines, namely plunder, rape and indiscriminate killing among their own populations.
2
Didnt terrorist organization JeM (based out of Pakistan) take responsibility of Pulwama attack? Pakistan is breeding ground for terrorism and is safe guarding terrorist (remember Osama?) for so quite some time now. Terrorist based out of Pakistan has been waging war against India (Mumbai attack, Mumbai train bombings, attack on Indian Parliament - Just google it..the list goes on and on) for last few decades. How many times have India striked back - two. There is a growing frustation amongst its citizen and there is a limit to restraint. I think India has every right to take actions and safe guard its people, army and border.
6
No one can deny the role Pakistan has played (covertly or overtly) in fostering international terrorism, think Taliban, Al Qaeda, Haqqani network, Jaish e Mohammed etc. While the primary target of such a policy has been India, Pakistan has not been left unscathed domestically.
While the Indian government has a right to claim Kashmir as its territory based on what happened in 1947, the fact is that the Kashmiri people have explicitly demonstrated a desire for 'self rule / self determination'.
So India is right to accuse Pakistan of harboring terrorists; while Pakistan is right to accuse India of not offering the option of semi / full independence to Kashmir.
India's position is somewhat understandable, there is not one country in the world that would give up what it thinks is its rightful territory (see Catalonia in Spain, Banda Aceh in Indonesia); but certainly Pakistan needs to stop fomenting unrest or outright supporting militant action in India, what is Pakistan's excuse?
The fact is that hopefully saner minds prevail on this, no one should rightfully want war on either side, the only people who will benefit are the politicians (or in Pakistan's case, its armed forces, who are quasi political).
6
The Maharaja of Kashmir joined India because the British and U.S. encouraged Pakistan to attack India and take part of the Province. There is no doubt that he was the head of state of Kashmir and he signed the Instrument of Accession and joined the Indian Union. There was no doubt about this.
3
People here seem to think Pakistan (government or military) is responsible for terrorist attacks in India. Who then is responsible for the terrorist attacks within Pakistan, such as killing children at a military school and other attacks in marketplaces and buses, etc? Is the Pakistani government also responsible for these? Is it the Indian government then? Or maybe terrorist organizations have their own agendas and are not homogenous or aligned with the government.
8
@AN
Yes I agree, Pakistan gov or military is not responsible for the terror action. but they are also not in state to diminish terror.
That's why Indian defense did air strike and US killed laden in abotabad to keep terror free region.
4
Very funny debate on a serious issue, people write on behalf of their countries as if they decide their internal And external affairs
1
It is shocking that a newspaper like the NYT seems to have so little factual history on the history of the Indian sub-continent and the perfidy of the Brits. Not only did they carve up the Indian sub-continent, but incompetents-you folks use the term, empty suits-were left in charge to dismantle a huge country that Britain ruled for over 200 years. It was their jewel in the crown.
Not being satisfied by partitioning the country to curry favor with the Muslims in the Middle East, dumb Mountbatten held back the Indian army from recovering all of Jumma & Kashmir legally ceded to India from the Pakistan sponsored terrorists that wouldn't accept The Articles of Accession. Had the Indian army be allowed to do its job under a legal framework, there is a high probability that terrorism today, would have been far less.
The destruction and mayhem left by the Brits was to a great extent carried on by a deeply flawed US policy that saw an artificial construct as an ally. We know how ell that worked out for the US.
Lastly, the US's security apparatus has known for the longest time the exact locations of numerous terrorist-training camps in Pakistan and chose to look the other way as hundreds of brave American soldiers lost their lives at the hands of Pakistan's duplicity. Leaving nuclear weapons in the hands of a failed state run by terrorists is a sure-fire prescription for a horrendous calamity.
23
@Percy This. What can I say? Humanity at its core is hypocritical and fundamentally driven by identity politics. Just that the establishment in the West (including the media - looking at you, self-proclaimed neutral commentators) has found a framework to perpetuate that charade in a subtle under-the-table fashion that can and has fooled most of humanity for the last few centuries, starting with the "Enlightenment".
Pakistan should praise India for taking out terrorists. Pakistan government downplayed the damage of this attack. If no one is harmed, then why Pakistan is so angry? They lied about Osama Bin Laden in the past. Pakistan is not trustworthy. Historically, they train terrorists on their land and deny any wrongdoing. I think India did the right thing by attacking the terrorists and they should perform more of such attacks.
27
India and Pakistan's history has been complex since their 1947 independences from Britain, which caused violence and forced displacements of millions of families on both sides. The decades-ago violence & displacements have healed.
Recent skirmishes between the sister nations were from military land grabs/violence - in every instance by Pakistan over Indian land (except in 1962, Pakistan let China take Indian land that Pakistan temporarily controlled). Each time the Indian government fiercely defended its land, though the Line Of Control agreement was a rare Indian concession that's caused the current half-century of hostilities.
For decades Pakistan has trained insurgents to infiltrate Kashmir, to terrorize and occupy land there - similar to the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Ever since Kashmir sided with India in 1947 to became a part of India, Pakistan has tried to forcefully annex Kashmir (and Jammu) from India - using military and insurgent/terrorist methods.
The Indian government has, over decades, shown restraint in dealing with Pakistani aggressions. They could have taken severe military/covert actions to decimate Pakistan, however they chose instead to develop democratic ideas in its unruly neighbor.
This intentional bombing of Pakistani forests was India's calculated cunning response - meant to appear strong to its own right-wing nationalists without provoking Pakistan, and appeasing everyone.
It shows India's sophisticated handling of its militaristic neighbor.
6
@IN -- "in every instance by Pakistan over Indian land"
So India did not dismember Pakistan and create Bangladesh out of East Pakistan?
3
@Mark Thomason
"So India did not dismember Pakistan and create Bangladesh out of East Pakistan?"
No that happened because of the racist exclusion of a darker skinned Bengali Muslim (Mujib ur Rahman)from the post of Prime Minister of unified Pakistan and his subsequent arrest. And oh yes, the killing of 400,000 Bengalis and the accompanying rapes really sped up the divisions between East and West Pakistan.
10
@Mark Thomason
Please read archives of the New York Times about East Pakistan and West Pakistan. Bangladesh came to exist because it was their true war of independence. Indian Army finished it in two weeks because the people welcomed it. Just see how Bangladesh and India get along well and solve their issues as a true friendly neighbor without any animosity religious or otherwise. The answer to your rhetorical question is 'no'!
4
I would have expected some maturity from a huge democracy. Apparently under Modi its not possible. It is also silly to portray the Indian government as saints and the Pakistanis as villains. Do remember Ajit Dovals plan of teaching Pakistan a lesson through Hybrid war. And by the way there is a active Indian spy in custody in Pakistan. I think the Indians have killed thousands in Pakistan through a war sponsored by their intelligence agencies. Do you think the terrorists operating in Pakistan had the brains to kill school children, attack cricket teams, the Chinese embassy and destroy only long range reconnaissance aircraft. Hybrid gentlemen is war and we the gentlemanly Pakistanis have been sleeping on it. Its time to wake up and put the blame squarely on India. Also this time the goofed up strike leaves no choice for Pakistan but to respond......some sleepless nights ahead for the perpetuators in India.
4
Maybe the Pakistani military could use Osama bin Laden’s old compound as operational headquarters of their response.
16
It cannot be coincidence that every time there are elections near by in India. There comes up an attack which BJP uses to great effect to gather votes. They know that anti-Pakistan stand sells in India as masses are obsessed. The war hysteria and propaganda is out of roof as if people have nothing else to do. Thank god NYT shows the news exactly as it is. This article clearly explained that there never were any training camps, and Indian forces just dropped ammunition in empty hillside. Pakistan has been more mature of the two in responding to Indian threats since this cycle of self-inflicted attack is concerned. Attacker was Kashmiri, used local explosives as per last NYT article. All in all always look at who is getting benefit out of all of this. It’s Modi. Case closed.
6
@IA
can you name terrorist event last time when India had elections ?
When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.
5
These two ethnic sectarian nuclear weapons rogue nations are a grave danger to world peace. Neither nation is a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
India is the 2nd most populous country on Earth. India is the most populous parliamentary democracy and the most populous Hindu nation. India has the 3rd most Muslims of any nation.
While Pakistan after Indonesia is the 2nd most populous majority Muslim country. Pakistan has dabbled in democracy in between historical bouts with military dictatorship.
1
@Blackmamba
India is the # 1 buyer of arms and has the 2nd largest number of soldiers.
Kashmir is akin to Gaza, West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights where another ethnic sectarian supremacist rogue nuclear weapons state Israel reigns and rules outside of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
1
While Pakistan shares a proud History of Mughal rule in South Asia,it is equally true that the British left a legacy of Intellectual Property in the Region. Witness the Universities,Railways,and other Infrastructure.There is,however,the Hindu Legacy of Jainism and Buddhism. So to put this all together in the Western mind must be very difficult!
2
"(Pakistan's Prime Minister) Mr. Khan insisted that Pakistan would investigate the attack if India offered evidence" -
Hardly a statement indicative of genuine concern. If one's attack dogs are accused of killing members of the family living next door, a good neighbor with even a smidgen of responsibility would conduct its own investigation and not leave it up to the victim's family to "offer evidence".
That having been said however, the 2011 Census India: Population by Religious Community shows that about 96.4% of the population of the Kashmir valley are Muslim followed by Hindus (2.45%) and Sikhs (0.98%) and others (0.17%): http://www.censusindia.gov.in/2011census/C-01/DDW01C-01%20MDDS.XLS
And this does not even take into consideration the historical and cultural ties the overwhelming majority of people living in that area have to Pakistan. Given these facts, instead of allowing Kashmiris autonomy in their own lands, India has for decades implemented draconian measures on the populace of that region: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_abuses_in_Jammu_and_Kashmir
To defeat terrorists, one must address the underlying reasons why locals support and provide sanctuary to them. Both Pakistan and especially India as the governing nation need to do far more to stop the bloodshed. Maybe allowing Kashmiris a vote in determining their own future (ex. independence; joining Pakistan; or remaining part of India) through an internationally observed referendum might be one way.
7
@EMIP before PM Khan’s message, Pak foreign office had condemned the attack in strong words. But when the other country starts blaming and threatening you 5 mins after the incident. You are bound to respond in a little different way.
@EMIP
There used to be Hindus in Kashmir called Kashmiri pandits. They are systematically threatened from Kashmir, changing the demographic. Dont forget history and pass judgements with half baked knowledge.
1
@EMIP
Pakistan's been asking the world for a plebiscite in Kashmir for decades now, but India doesn't want that. Even their founding fathers like V.K. Kirshna Menon have noted that plebiscite in Kashmir would most likely result in Kashmir being ceded to Pakistan. Hence their occupation of the region with an upwards of 700k soldiers.
1
Two observations:
(1) China's statement asking both India and Pakistan to maintain calm is a pathetic attempt to cover up its own role in escalating tensions in the area to keep India on its toes.
China's veto and consistent opposition to declaring J-e-M's founder an internationally wanted terrorist has allowed him to remain active.
(2) NYT's reporting about South East Asia is pathetically biased. It writes about anti-democratic autocratic regimes all over world except Pakistan. NYT rarely writes about Pakistan military's stranglehold on its government. Its investigative reporting fails to write about Pakistan's relentless sponsorship of terrorist organizations along Indian and Afghanistan borders.
NYT has written about is India's alleged heavy handed tactics to suppress J&K residents. But, they mention nothing about decades of systematic purging of Hindus from Kashmir.
NYT failed to point out that Kashmiris were doing fine until late 80's. But as Pakistan's economy worsened, it's religiously zealot politicians and military started sponsoring terrorism in Kashmir as a diversion tactic to keep its people from complaining about its dismal socio-economic performance.
45
@Assay
NYT has often written about Pakistan's military interfering with the government for their own interests. I have not found coverage here of Pakistan to be in Pakistan's interest. NYT has also reported on social issues and problems within Pakistan.
1
@AN Its Genocide in Bangladesh ? Even when it went selectively against Islamic terrorists against Pakistani Army it was simply Barbaric. It one of the few Armies that own industries , runs logistics operations and most of Pakistani generals then end up in Canada and I4 countries as permanent visas ....not sure what category......?
2
Disappointing to read most of the comments here. While Indians are vehemently shouting for war and revenge, they conveniently forget to mention that why their media had blamed Pakistan, 5 minutes after the attack when no investigation had been conducted?
The area where blast happened is heavily militarized, so how was it possible for a lone man, to travel into that area with explosives? Was it failure of the Indian intelligence? Why was that not investigated?
Ten minutes of watching any Indian news channels and you get the idea what kind of hatred and violence they harbour. While Pakistan's stance was very calm and mature, Indian media had gone into a full berserk, rabid mode. Is this how the world's biggest democracy reacts?
War is not the answer and there are no winners in wars fought today. Take USA's example of now finding an escape route out of Afghan, Iraq.
The only person who gained from all this false propaganda and unrest is MODI, who surprisingly, has an upcoming election to win.
Go figure!
6
@Sid
Calling Pakistan's government and military as "calm" and "mature" is extremely delusional. You can't refute the fact that their military provides safe haven to terrorists which will keep conflict up in Kashmir. The military does this to keep a tight lid on the civilian government which is merely a puppet show. Most Indians and Pakistans would get along just fine (who were after all one people) if not for these two foul players.
14
Sid I think you have lost the larger picture and seem to have died of drowning of the details. JeM claimed responsibility and US and other countries have steady labeled it a terror outfit. Also it’s a very well known proven fact that their sponsor is ISi. After that if further evidence needed , then I am glad you don’t hold any government position in any part of world. Even the most anti Modi people, aka Congress party, is on in this.
9
@Sid JeM had openly claimed responsibility of terror attack on India.
8
I believe in peace. War will never solve our problems. India and Pakistan need to sit down and discuss all of the issues that make each state hate the other. India should stop torturing innocent civilians and Pakistan should do it's best in eliminating terrorism. Peace is the only option here there is no way around it.
8
If India were to wage war against Pakistan, win that war, and in so doing annihilate the Taliban's Pakistani forces, Afghanistan could be on the brink of peace. But this rather wishful thinking is from the mindset of an American.
From the mindset of an Asian Muslim, India's actions would set off a religious war of a scale that would make Central Europe's Thirty Years' War small by comparison.
4
@john clagett
FYI, Taliban have no forces in Pakistan. They are pretty well settled in Afghanistan itself. As per recent news they control 55% of the country. And Pakistan is helping US with the peace talks.
@IA Yes as they have been helping with Global War on terrorism in Afghanistan. My guess is that Afghanistan would not have been such embarrassment for US if Pakistan would not have kept supporting Talibans. Now after defeating two superpowers US and USSR they will create garden of eden in Afghanistan.
2
@Achilles
Remind me who created the Taliban aka Mujahideen? And left Pakistan alone at the end to deal with the mess that was created by multiple partners.
GDP
Pakistan: $ 273 billion
India: $2088 billion
Don't pick fights with a nation that has an economy seven times larger than yours.
10
Its not about the economic
It was all about revenge
Revenge of what ? Nothing
India blamed pakistan after the Kashmir attack after 5 minutes without and evidence and Mr.modi want to make sure that he will win the next elections in India
Thats why he did this thing
3
@Lawrence That's bad comparison. India's population is 1.2 billion and Pakistan is 0.2 billion. That is six times as well! So GPD per capita is not too different.
2
@hajicamp
No really. Troop numbers (3:1) and total defense expenditure (5:1) are both in India's favor and one reason for that is the larger population and overall economy.
Transation: If both have the same per capita income and contribute about the same per capita to defense the larger country will have a bigger army and better weapons.
6
Bemused by the comments, some which take the moral high ground and some which reek of jingoism.
The situation between India and Pakistan is much more complex. As of now, Kashmir is the place where the action is but if there was no Kashmir, it would have happened elsewhere. It is a fight gone from bad to worse because of two different identities exacerbated by partition, history, invasions, culture, religion and finally the conversion of East Pakistan which became Bangladesh.
Indian politicians could have easily handled the Kashmiri domestic problem better but just as they bungled in other Indian states, the rut and corruption of Indian politics bungled in Indian Kashmir too. And now the right-wing Indian government which massively failed to fix a domestic Kashmiri issue is fighting on both sides of the border.
Will there ever be peace between Pakistan and India? Most probably not because I hear that Pakistani defence forces are brought up on a diet of hate for India. Pakistan's survival according to their defence forces, can only happen if India is split up. Can India ever solve the Kashmir tangle? That would need great political acumen and sangfroid which Indian politicians have never exhibited.
The air force strikes by India are just one part of this big game and Pakistan would have definitely got the message that they can only bleed India through their guerrilla tactics of terrorism to an extent where India will definitely strike back.
20
@Ram No one needs peace with Pakistan. Build a wall so high that they won't come thru (not a physical wall, hope you get the idea).
The world at large will be in a much better place when Pakistan is dismantled. Nothing less or more. Indian corruption shouldn't be a reason of failure - no one deserves to be treated this way for decades on end.
2
@SR
"not a physical wall, hope you get the idea"
I don't. What do you mean? Are you talking about mass killings of civilians?
"The world at large will be in a much better place when Pakistan is dismantled." What will happen to the people living there? How does breaking up a country increase peace? ISIS is a result of the breakup of Syria and Iraq.
2
@AN Pakistanis come to India for medical treatment in large measures. Indian culture dominates Pakistan - on any given day, 7 out of 10 stores in newspapers are India related. Their artists beg to act in Indian cinemas and sing in Indian shows. Isolating them and treating them for the pariah that they are is the only way out. Pakistan is not a nation state - the Sunnis of UP who asked for freedom did not migrate there-the Ahmedis who asked for freedom are killed every day...pls read...
Trump the chump plays in a sand box with Kim while two nuclear powers in South Asia slip into war. So much for his ability to manage international affairs regarding the dangers of nuclear war. Anyone who is not asleep can see that this India-Pakistan conflict is the first real crisis that Trump has not created since he became President and he’s out of touch with it making kissy kissy with Kim, who is playing him like a fool.
4
Pakistan happily ceded a portion of Pakistani controlled Kashmir (the so called Trans-Karakoram Tract) to China despite claiming to love Kashmir so much on behalf of Kashmiris.
Nor do they ever protest the 1962 Chinese land grab of Aksai Chin which is part of the same province of Jammu and Kashmir.
What gives Pakistan the right to negotiate disputed land on behalf of the Kashmiris? Sorry, common religion is just not a good enough answer.
On the other hand Kashmiris have the all the rights of Indian citizenship but (ordinary) Indian citizens who are not permanent residents of Jammu and Kashmir as of May 14, 1954 or their descendants, cannot buy real estate in Jammu and Kashmir state.
Pakistan meanwhile has completely changed the religious demography of Pakistan Controlled Kashmir and indeed the demography of the rest of Pakistan. Fortunately their efforts at ethnic cleansing (400,000 killed and an equal number of women raped) in East Pakistan failed and birthed the (comparatively) liberal and progressive state of Bangladesh.
39
My silly vote is that Kashmir becomes its own state in the form of a Led Zeppelin walking tour and tribute. Think of the tourism potential!
3
@Ryan Swanzey
The day that happens Pakistan will gobble them up or launch a proxy war on some pretext like they have in Afghanistan.
9
@Ryan Swanzey that would be a nice fiction, but in reality if Kashmir becomes an independent the state will be attacked and conquered by Pakistan or China in a day. Geographical condition of Kashmir makes a perfect base for war mongering countries and it can threaten both Asia and Europe in the coming years.
6
@Ryan Swanzey great idea and a beautiful valley, Pakistan and most of the Kashmiris would love it.
There's absolutely nothing in either the Indian government's response to the attacks on the CRPF or the Pakistani government's response to the response that suggests escalation or a desire for war.
Of course India has to do something about an attack on its armed forces. Calling it a terrorist attack is accurate but misleading since the bombing targeted paramilitary forces - hence a direct attack on the Indian state itself.
Imagine if a hundred US soldiers in Iraq were killed by a suicide bomber - you can say what you want about an illegal occupation (which it is and was) but the US would have done anything to find the perpetrators and get rid of them and there would have been some combination of covert and overt action to do so.
Meanwhile, I find it amusing that the US media and the commentators here immediately escalate to India and Pakistan being nuclear states and world security being threatened. I guess brown people can't be trusted to have weapons that only white people have ever used.
54
"India controls much of Kashmir, while Pakistan controls a smaller part of the region, which was left in an undetermined state after the British partition of India in 1947."
This is sloppy writing at best, deliberately misleading at worst.
Firstly Kashmir may be a region but it is part of a state/province (Jammu and Kashmir) that used to be a kingdom. The other two regions of the state are Jammu and Ladakh. Neither the region of Kashmir nor the state of Jammu and Kashmir were "left in an undetermined state." The (Hindu) King of Kashmir whose dynasty had been ruling for years signed an Instrument of Accession in favor of India in keeping with the Indian Independence Act of 1947 which is the basis of both India and Pakistan. You may have issues with a Hindu king but consider that the Moghuls who were Muslim ruled predominantly Hindu India for centuries.
Anyway after the King's accession Pakistan attacked Jammu and Kashmir in 1948, occupied parts of it and later even ceded a portion to China as a gift. China also attacked Jammu and Kashmir in 1962 and annexed a large chunk called Aksai Chin and no one (including Pakistan) has any issues with it to this day.
Pakistan changed the demographics Pakistan Controlled Kashmir while India prohibits Indian citizens from buying Kashmiri land unless they are permanent residents of Kashmir as of May 1954 or their descedants. Kashmiris on the other hand can buy land or settle anywhere in India and get an Indian passport.
34
@Pantagruel, you are dealing in a little deception yourself. You are correct that the Hindu king of Kashmir, who was seen by the British as having the power to decide the fate of the Kashmiri people, chose for Kashmir to be part of India. So India has a legitimate claim to all of Kashmir.
On the other side, Americans generally believe in the will of the people and representational governance, and there is no doubt that the majority Muslim Kashmiri people wanted to be part of Pakistan. So Pakistan has a legitimate claim as well.
Add in generations of corrupt, self serving leaders on both sides, jingoistic nationalists on both sides, and this is how we are where we are today.
@Bill
No deception; I mentioned he was Hindu.
Yours is a valid criticism. But try to look at it like this.
1. The Indian Independence Act of 1947 passed by the House of Commons in UK created Pakistan by partitioning India in response to the demands of the Muslim League which wanted a separate country for Muslims.
2. The leaders of the Indian freedom struggle (Gandhi, Nehru and Patel) grudgingly accepted the partition of India they had hoped to free in one piece.
3. The same Act gave every Princely State (there were about 600 at the time) the right to join India, join Pakistan or stay sovereign. The decision lay solely with the monarch.
4. All Princely States (some after a brief delay) joined India because their rulers signed the Instrument of Accession. Kashmir did so to.
If we disregard the Indian Independence Act with regard to princely states we also undermine the legal basis for the existence of Pakistan which was carved out of India because this Act permitted the partition.
Moving forward: all princely states are solidly part of India and do not even have royal titles; India abolished these soon after Independence. The only exception is Kashmir because Pakistan occupied part of it. Pakistan thinks that just because Kashmir is Muslim majority it automatically should belong to them. They do not agitate for Kashmiri independence but rather wish to absorb it into their Islamic Republic.
India has as many Muslims as Pakistan. Will Pakistan make future claims?
11
@Pantagruel You are wrong about all states joining India many joined Pakistan as well.What do you think about this,should kashmiris would had the right of self determination or the Hindu raja.The conclusion is India promised for free plebiscite in the valley under UN resolution but didn't conducted in fear of Kashmiris deciding in favour of Pakistan.The is not of India and Pakistan it's the Kashmiris who are being muscled in the whole conflict.
Answer to your question .Will the Indian Muslims decide their future in Pakistan after facing religious discrimination...in India?
India simply must allow Kashmiris to decide their own fate; they have to stop forceful occupation. Its logical The new Indian government is ultra nationalistic and is changing the way India is run inside with racism and discrimination which could lead to breakup of India in many smaller countries. Thus better leave Kashmir and concentrate on India itself.
6
@Turgut
The Pakistani fantasy of India's Balkanisation has been around since time immemorial. But the failed state that it is, it is Pakistan itself that lost Bangladesh in 1971, is about to lose Baluchistan and has no real control of whatever goes on in the badlands of North West Frontier Province. Sad.
8
@Turgut Kashmiris were allowed to make a decision on their own fate and the Kashmir king's dynasty in 1947 signed in favor of India. After that Pakistan attacked Kashmir and occupied some parts of it and changed the demography completely. Now it is not the time for asking a second opinion from the new residents of Kashmir (PoK) who are not the real Kashmiris.
5
I am disappointed in the NYT for calling terrorists militants. Since when has this highly respected publication started kowtowing to Islamic fundamentalist propaganda. If our own newspaper is running scared of terrorists, then what do we expect from those in the third world. Please explain your abdication of journalistic responsibility.
58
@K Wehms How are they terrorist and not militants? How is killing of soldiers (not civilians) by indigenous citizen of that state (yes, with clandestine Pakistani support, though not proven yet) that is occupied by 500-600k Indian troops, an act of terrorism? Is the army occupation in J&K terrorized by the population?
1
@K Wehms - Nobody is condoning terrorism. But not to debate and understand the root causes of extremist actions may be just comfortable - but not responsible journalism.
@hajicamp
Simple. Check the Guardian, hardly a pro-India rag: "The Pakistan-based militant group Jaish-e-Mohammed claimed responsibility for the bombing. It said it was carried out by Adil Ahmad Dar, a locally recruited fighter from south Kashmir’s Pulwama district. The group released a video showing Dar delivering his will and a photograph of him surrounded by guns and grenades."
Do you really expect India to ignore this if Pakistan does not go after the people who release such a video?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/indian-paramilitaries-killed-in-suicide-car-bombing-in-kashmir
8
We can only hope that these two countries are both in firm control of their nuclear forces, and that they are under a secure chain-of-command that is responsive to a civilian authority.
One of the big lessons of the cold war was the necessity for a measured response, capable of many steps of escalation between the first use of a Molotov cocktail, to the first use of a nuclear weapon. This is the main reason the United States kept an air-breathing strategic nuclear bomber force: once they are launched, it takes many hours for them to reach their target, thereby providing time for a de-escalation.
2
@W I highly doubt about Pakistan nuclear arsenal security. Its the country of military coups. If civilian Govt wont listen to Military, very likely we will see another coup.
Dont forget about OBL who was found in milatary garrison town of Pakistan. We all know Pakistan military and ISI harboring and norturing terrorists. In worst case, it can even slip nuclear weapons to terrorists.
3
The rightwing Modi character is changing a secular India internally as well as externally. In both instances, his electorate base of ultra-nationalist Hindvta is forcing extremist policies and jingoistic postures that abhor compromise. History tells us that it is very difficult for ultra-right wingers to de-escalate as loss of face, perceived or otherwise, becomes more important than national interests.
To resolve the issue of Kashmir peacefully is in India's national interest. Pakistan does not have a stomach to fight a war for Kashmir after bleeding for decades herself. However, it is very difficult for any Pakistani ruler. past, present or future, to ignore the plight of Kashmiris due to ethnic, religious and cultural ties. Islamabad would rather see Kashmiris living their lives in peace with dignity under India than to fight an impossible war. Unfortunately for the ultra right-winger Jana Sangh and BJP Indian government, to assuage and mollify Indian Kashmiris would be a compromise - a loss of face. The same dynamics shall limit meaningful de-escalation of tensions with Pakistan.
My fear is that unfortunately, Pakistani leaders would only have limited capital and opportunity to show patience and explore better ties with India. The precipice is horrendously unimaginable for this planet.
12
@Aslam Husain
Interesting.. Pakistan is breeding ground of world terrorists. In the world, where ever you see a terrorist attack, you will see a connection to Pakistan. Dont forget where OBL is found.
Jaish-e-Muhammad accepted responsibility for the suicide attack that killed 40+ Indian soldiers.
This is handy work of Islamic lunatics operating freely and support by Pakistani military and ISI.
J-e-M responsible for earlier attacks on India. India maintained restrain earlier and shared evidence of terrorists operating from Pakistan. As a failed nation, it failed to act on terrorists. India can not sit back and let its soldiers get killed. Time to act and hunt terrorists without boundaries.
Either Pakistan can side with Terrorists and escalate issue further or support India in eliminating these rats.
Coming to Kashmiris, there are more Muslims in India than Pakistan. Indian Muslims are having higher living standards than Muslims in Pakistan. Kashmir will be a peaceful place without Pakistan sponsoring and promoting terrorists.
12
@Aslam Husain whereas everyone is entitled to their opinion yours shows expected slant based on your religion.
To be clear I'm an atheist, but as you say nationalist Indian. Modi is just what the doctor ordered.
Love his dynamism, and what he's doing for India.
5
@Srinath, How about integrating yourself in the country of your residence. How about understanding the culture of the western civilization that played a pivotal role in the building of America. How about trying to getting yourself to share its vision of individual dignity and egalitarianism.
But what do you have instead is nauseating browbeating for a megalomaniacal leader in a country which you have left.
1
General people & politicians in western world first time realized the global menace of Islamic terrorism after 9/11. But many countries in Asia & Africa were facing this threat for long and most of it were propagated by few Islamic nations like Pakistan, Saudi Arab, & Iran. In reality, Pakistan is not a state with a military, but a military with a state. It's far too militarized since it was founded on lies of Jinnah almost exclusively to promote rich elite Muslims (not the poor or Muslims from India.) Soon (1948) Pakistan occupied a part of Kashmir, which was legally aligned to India during 1947. Since then it's conducting subversive activities in Kashmir, despite its repeated defeat in few wars. But since Zia-Ul-Haque's regime during 1980s that hostility changed nature. It started grooming & using Islamic terrorism as part of its foreign policy. This becomes clearer by this former Pakistani diplomat, Husain Haqqani- https://goo.gl/9v3yjW
Historically, India showed very poor judgement by not retaking Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK) and not taking that fight for Kashmir inside Pakistan. You can not satisfy a mad dog by throwing meat to it. At some point you must stand up. "Peace loving" Indians and Indian Govt must understand that freedom & peace is not free. Only those deserve it who r ready & willing to pay the price for it. India never ever attacked any country but it must have the courage to defend itself when attacked and attacked repeatedly.
66
@bonku You need to get your facts right. Kashmir is a disputed territory, under UN charters and was not legally aligned to India at the time of partition. India has never accepted Pakistan and it's creation post 1947 and has consistently done everything in it's power to destabilize that nation. It played an active role in formation of Bangladesh and continued insurgency in Baluchistan. No country is as idealistic as you present it yourself "peace loving". Every country has their interest and those interest have higher priority than any moral code of conduct. Yes, Pakistan is not an exemplary nation by any standards but the root cause of it's issue lies in its' continued entanglement with extremist element within it's society - so maybe India should learn from it and cut it's ties with elements like Modi and it's supporting Hindu nationalist cast, otherwise - the dream of Greater India will be a distant dream.
4
@bonku
"Historically, India showed very poor judgment by not retaking Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK)" A lot of Pakistanis feel the same way about not siding with China in 1962/63 - or allowing Junagadh to become part of India when the Muslim ruler 'legally' opted for Pakistan against the Hindu majority. Same condition like Kashmir with reverse polarity.
Kashmir is not Pakistan's problem. It is the problem of Kashmiri people who are treated harshly like a subjugated colony by occupying forces.
Now, due to its size and economic success, India has an opportunity to be graceful around the weaker parties in the subcontinent. That would be good for India as well as the subcontinent.
1
@hajicamp
The Indian Independence Act of 1947 passed by the House of Commons, created Pakistan. This Act also said that the sole determinant of what a princely state could do was the decision of its monarch. The Maharaja of Kashmir signed in India's favor. You may dispute it. you may say he is a Hindu ruler of a Muslim population but it is something. All Pakistan has is the claim that because Kashmir is predominantly Muslim it belongs to Pakistan. Remember if you challenge the Indian Independence Act you challenge the very law that lets you exist as a separate entity. India respects it and thus recognizes Pakistan.
Bangladesh was not created by India but by your military which decided that a dark skinned Bengali Muslim (Mujib) with a majority of votes cannot be permitted to become Prime Minister of a unified Pakistan that included light skinned Punjabis. Mujib was placed under arrest and the East Pakistan freedom struggle was launched. You retaliated with genocide (400,000) and rape (another 400,000) and created a refuge problem for India (8-10 million). At this stage India did intervene by attacking Pakistan and Pakistan lost (both the war and the eastern part of its country). At this stage India held back and negotiated the Simla accord under which all occupied parts of West Pakistan were unilaterally returned in return for peace.
Pakistan retaliated by starting proxy wars in Punjab (1984) and Kashmir (1989). We won the first proxy war and are trying to win the second.
6
Why does this NYT report read like it's heavily biased towards the Pakistani's take on the Indian Air Force strikes? It minimizes the rationale for the strikes and questions the damage inflicted on a Pakistan based terrorist training camp run by a terrorist organization.
Pakistani has a history of denying successful Indian attacks. To this date, the Pakistani military denies that Indian Special Forces carried out a surgical strike on Terror camps based in Pakistan in Sept 2016.
97
And India has a history of claiming fake attacks. It time you wear a daylight ring and face Pakistan openly not through a 2017 video. Even though I support peace between India and Pakistan but this time you have gone too far.
3
@M.Ram In a majority of conflicts, only political negotiation brings about a livable resolution. Violence leads to violence. Current Indian leaders and Pakistani leaders alike have forgotten the teachings of Gandhi.
5
@Amala Lane
Oh my! Since when did the Pakistanis have anything to do with Gandhi? A nation founded on hate and bigotry, using terrorism as statecraft, with mad Generals hand in glove with Mullahs, it's a nightmare of a neighbour for India, which unfortunately is stuck with this rogue state along its western border. If a nation could represent pure evil on earth, look no further, Pakistan it is!
15
The history is complicated, and detangling the historic origins of the problem can take much longer than few generations ... I am Indian, and I don't really think that we should be fighting Pakistan. We are much alike. However, terrorism needs to be answered and dealt with. As much as war is to be avoided, deeds like Pakistan's which actually is just that of a handful of politicians and army-men, should be punished. I am all for political, and diplomatic pressure, but states like China get in the way of that. They have rebuffed UN resolutions. Of course, I blame British for originally starting this feud and many others in Middle East. But that is history, and we have to deal with problems now. In absence of clear political consensus in the world that thwarts diplomatic answers to Pakistan's behavior, I think, attacks like these are best way for survival in India. India has power, might, and resources to protect herself, and it would be foolish not to.
65
@No-one
"India has power, might, and resources". Sure, so act in a graceful and magnanimous manner. Be kind and graceful towards Kashmiris - you sure could 'afford' it. Continued meanness, subjugation, and atrocities towards your own populations shall not serve India in the long run. Pakistan cannot create 'trouble' - if Kashmiris are happy. Let India be prosperous - without leaving Kashmiris resentful and left behind.
3
@Aslam Husain. Kashmir per capita income in $1200. India's most populous state (U.P) has a per capita income of $770.
Balochistan has per capita income of $740.
If Kashmiri's are resentful, it is because of cross border terrorism, brainwashing, and need to have heavy millitary presence due to threat of terrorism and cross border invasion. Kargil was not far back in past.
3
This is the most insightful and balanced assessment of last night's events that has appeared in the media. Whether the Indians deliberately targeted an uninhabited area or whether they missed bombing their real target nearby is not so important as what will happen after this.
Among the many recently literate, upward moving, segments of either country's population, nationalism very much attracts the kind of new found zeal that has generally subsided in the West. It is important that the leadership on either side not let it get out of hand in exploiting it for their own ends. As for the Kashmir valley, the festering sore at the heart of the rivalry, it is hard to see anything improving. The Indians have infirm legal papers of ownership, which they have interpreted to be a moral claim; the Pakistanis have decades of fellow feeling for valley's people, but no legal papers of ownership. Locked in the defensive attitudes that have sprung from these circumstances, neither country is able to be honest with itself. The new found nationalism---in which the nation is placed unthinkingly above the pursuit of happiness---ensures that the people in either country will underestimate the scale of the tragedy that might unfold around them if the hostilities escalate.
4
@ST buddy you are way off and patronizing by attributing that zeal of nationalism to India and Pakistan! How would you characterize Trump election and Brexit! These are absolute zeal of ugly nationalism and crony democracy by self righteous and naive west.
5
@SPNJ The supporters of Donald Trump or of Brexit have not placed the immaterial prestige of a nation above their personal well-being. Rather, they see in the shunning of internationalism, or of foreign peoples, whether rightly or wrongly, a short and sweet path to their own economic betterment. The peoples of India and Pakistan, their per capita incomes ranked 140th and 144th in the world, are nowhere near experiencing the level of base economic security that guides, or misguides, the supporters of Trump.
I don't know who brokers a peace negotiation or de-escalation. Whatever, I hope our fearless leader stays out of it. He can only make it worse.
5
It sure seems like if Pakistan doesn’t want to get blamed for the actions of militant groups, it should show more interest in ceasing their operations. If you’re looking the other way and a group within your territory kills a bunch of people with a suicide bombing, it’s not especially accurate to say you had no hand in it. Tolerating the activity of the group within state lines gives it space to operate. Hopefully this incident doesn’t further escalate. Pakistan can earn more trust by showing less tolerance for rogue actors.
31
@Ryan Swanzey Pakistan is weary and understands this dilemma. But after riding the jihadi tiger ( first with the CIA against the Soviets) for so long, it needs room to pacify its own vociferous ultra-right wingers. History has its coattails.
3
Pakistan, breeding ground of world terrorists, failed to take credible action against terrorists and eliminate them.
Pakistan lost its sovereignty when non-state actors challenged government and causing trouble to neighbors.
Its time for world leaders to act, as Pakistan unreliable and ineffective at best. We cant rely on a failed state to make any progress.
India will not sit idle when its soldiers are being killed. Terrorists will be hit hard no matter where they hide. Pakistan either choose to protect terrorists and start a war with India or let the rats gets killed.
You can look at local folks interview on twitter to understand the effectiveness of damage.
22
"Jaish-e-Mohammed still ran a school in Balakot" LOL
Pakistan is essentially a haven to Islamic terrorists, with official endorsement from the military establishment. Both the terrorists and the Pak military, never in their wildest dreams thought Modi would sign off on a air strike, deep into Pakistan territory.
Nation's sovereignty above all.
Billion people are rejoicing for the first time in decades, what should have been done before.
More power to Indian and more power to Modi.
23
Wait a minute?!
Pakistan gets mad when a TERRORIST training camp gets attacked?
I thought they were “trying their best to fight terrorism” and claim thrmselves to be the victim?
Good thing Trump stopped funding them and their phony attempts at curbing terrorism!
Where did they find and kill Osama Bin Laden? Oh that’s right, in Pakistan! Our military didn’t even inform Pakistan we were going in. Good thing.
If Pakistan was TRULY against terrorism, not only would they not have minded India attacking a world recognized terror organization, they should have supported India in this!
115
You think a state should encourage a rival state’s aircraft to conduct campaigns in its territory, especially when they perpetually spar over disputed territory? That’s absolutely crazy. Yes, Pakistan can’t both harbor militants and play victim when said militants do something to provoke other states.
8
@Aimee So are you saying that any country can go inside any other country and attack the terrorist camps as they see wish and that the country (whose border is violated) should be ok with that? Will you be ok with Canada did that to the white nationalist if they see them as terrorist?
3
@hajicamp
If a kid from next door, comes vandalizes your home and goes back and hides in their home, what will you do ?
You complain to your neighbor to take action.
what if your neighbor repeatedly fails to contain it ?
will you keep, kid next door vandalize your property and take no action ?
India tried diplomatic methods but China blocking it every time.
Its time for India to act. Either Pakistan feel happy that finally terrorists getting contained or drag India into a war.
5
A large majority of Pakistanis and Indians have no ill feelings for each other. The main reason for continued tensions between the two countries is the collusion between Pakistan's military and the Taliban and a few other factions. Taliban lives off of this unrest and will never peace form between Pak and India. Until the day, Pakistani civilian government is able to rein in the military that gives safe harbor to the terrorists, peace will not come. Of course, with Imran Khan in power, I see no such thing happening. I recently saw a picture of him welcoming MBS with open arms. That's all you need to know about Mr. Khan.
75
@Indisk and did you forget about the bear hug MBS received from Modi?
8
@Indisk
MBS visited Khan with $20 Billion in his back pocket, ready to help prop up Pakistan’s failing economy.
My bet is that Pakistan has nuclear technology and needs cash, while Saudi Arabia has cash and needs nuclear technology!
A match made in heaven, or hell.
20
@Sid:
When two cultures consider it normal and welcoming to embrace (hug) each other... that is equivalent to a handshake for other cultures.
It is wrong to say Modi and MBS had a "bear hug". They basically shook hands.
The difference between Khan's (Pakistan's) welcome and Modi's is that Pakistan was salivating over MBS' (Saudi's) $20 Billion (possibly in exchange for nuclear technology being given to Saudi Arabia - illegally).
India wouldn't even sneeze at Saudi money.
So yes, both Indian and Pakistani leaders "shook hands" with (hugged) MBS. However the Pakistanis were salivating profusely.
3
Pakistan has been courted and than abandoned by one suitor or the other to serve their self interests Britain, US, and now China; with Saudis to bankroll and the military playing games.
14
Today Pakistan has confirmed that Indian fighter plan has attacked in POK but denied any huge damage and casualties. Now question is , why Pakistan did not allowed international media and foreign dignitaries to visit on the spot today on pretext of bad weather? Answer is simple that Pakistan will get ample time to remove all the evidences of Indian air strike from the site.
46
@Purnn Chhetri Truth is the first victim in any war and applies equally to India and Pakistan. For you to believe in Indian politician & military and for someone in Pakistan to believe theirs, is just being naive.
2
@Purnn Chhetri
I don't think it is possible to remove evidence of such a massive strike within a day or two. Also the Associated Press and Reuters have extensive network of reporters around the world. Many Pakistanis have access to YouTube and Twitter and we would have seen the images of destruction if any had taken place. If that many people are dead, there will be some funerals.
I have worked in both countries back in the 90s (on assignment with a US bank) and have since visited India frequently.
Back in the day, I thought Pakistan was obsessed with India. Their military consolidated their power by raising India as a bogey man to justify military expenditure. This bemused the Indians who were instead focused on competing with China for global economic leadership.
That Indian economy has lagged far behind what China has achieved during this 20 year period deserves some introspection on behalf of Indian intellectuals. Inviting Beyoncé to sing at your daughters wedding doesn’t showcase your greatness - Just ostentatiousness.
People have had a lot of expectations from the Modi govt. after the corruption by the Congress govt. But, there has been a large corruption scandal lately in India (involving Modi and a scion of the Reliance family, Anil Ambani) and the Modi govt in an election year benefits its hold on power by raising war hysteria.
Thanks to jingoistic Indian media, the whole country has been expecting a Bollywood movie type response to the terror attack in Kashmir. This is not how leaders of mature nations act: risking war for political theater
Pakistan definitely needs to address Indian concerns of terrorist camps on its soil. At the same time, India needs to answer for why it has 250K troops in Kashmir. Why are they blinding and killing little kids? Which democracy does that? The Human Rights silence on abuses in Kashmir is disappointing.
33
@Patrician. I lived in that part of the world for about 30 yrs. You does not seem to have much idea about either India and Pakistan. Probably you were courted by elite Pakistanis, who generally represent their countries to foreigners and in western countries.
Chinese economy was better than India simply because western corporations loved lawless and autocratic China to invest where they were allowed to do just anything. India opened its economy much later. Almost all of China's prosperity came from Western investment and technology. Now look at China, its deteriorating economy (after Trump policy) and how it's people, mainly the rich folks, are desperate to leave that country.
Did USA talked to Osama Bin Laden or eternally negotiated with Islamic terrorists when they attacked in 9/11. No. India was and still is far too late to respond to Pakistani aggression that started almost immediately after India was partitioned.
Learn few basics of history and global economics before open your mouth.
14
@Patrician It's not 250k, it's in the range of 500k - 600k, based on Indian estimates. Indians are too drunk in the Hindu nationalism and forgetting that their strength lies in it's secularism and that Pakistan is an example of a country that was and is still being deeply impacted (negatively) by the extremist forces within it's society, though you could argue that people of Pakistan has never voted them in power, unlike India.
2
@bonku
Please keep writing.
You’re only revealing the intolerant Hindutva mindset that has sadly taken hold in India over the last 2 decades. Which is why writers and intellectuals are silenced. Film makers don’t have editorial control over the historical stories they want to tell. Goons show up to disrupt film production and screening.
If it weren’t clear to you from my comment, I hold India to a higher standard than Pakistan because I believe India to be poised for greatness. To become a global power. A bigoted mindset is what will get in the way. I don’t want to see that happen.
I’d prefer India be the next global superpower, not China which is running concentration camps in this day and age...
8
This is what terrorists always hope for: to goad their target into a huge overreaction that causes of chain reaction of even more chaos. I really hope the Indian government knows what it is getting in to.
6
I remember a TV documentary about a border crossing between India and Pakistan where they had a ritual closing of the gate every evening. Elaborately uniformed soldiers on either side performed a sort of ritual manual of arms / dance that involved high marching steps, intricate turns, and much brandishing and twirling their rifles.
Another thing I noticed is that the uniforms on both sides were almost identical, except for the color of certain decorations, such as their scarves, belts, and hats. I also noticed that their ritual steps and movements mirrored each others' to a tee.
In other words, I couldn't help but notice how similar they were to each other in their harmless displays of ritual hostility. At the end of the day, both sides retreated to their barracks to shine their uniforms and practice their moves to repeat the show again tomorrow.
What a great alternative to actual warfare. The soldiers got to display their aggression and nobody got hurt. If only it could stay that way.
Meanwhile, by all accounts, Shrinagar in Kashmir is a beautiful place, and I can see why both countries would covet it. They seem to have devolved to a ritual conflict that involves occasional real violence, followed by a step back from the brink of full-on warfare. That seems to be the best they can do; I hope that they don't slip over the edge again.
8
@mlbex
Great powerful words.Hats off to you? How great if there were no wars in history, no cold war, no israel palestine war, no iraqi invasion, no nothing at all. But sorry everything is not that simple and has never been simple.
I m an Indian and I know how increasingly people here are losing trust in media. Media has turned into a big joke. Anyone can simply say they are in race of their TRP. They can go to any level. Ok, if there was an attack on the terrorist organisation, then its well and good. But reality has repeatedly become evident that it was a failure with no casualties of which the Indian media rather the politicians who are eyeing elections are ready to accept.
Another very common fact is Indians hate Indians. So if any political leader takes stand against this definitely he would be branded an anti nationalist and be asked to leave India immediately.
5
@mlbex Actually - the soldiers on both sides performing this display got knee injuries, because of which this display doesn't happen any more.
2
@FARHAN Finally some truth from the Indian side. Bravo !
The conflict between India and Pakistan is the source of nearly all of our problems with terrorism outside of the Eastern Mediterranean. It’s the one location where a nuclear war could actually happen since the fall of the U.S.S.R. This crisis is the real deal and the world needs to focus in and try to keep this from escalating.
9
@Casual Observer: Thanks for sharing your perspective, distant though it may be.
I might mention though that the presence of nuclear weapons on both sides should not & cannot force India to restrain itself from punishing Pakistan for sponsoring terrorist attacks on its civilians and military.
It is Pakistan which indulges in nuclear blackmail. India will not bend before such blackmail, and neither will it tolerate any sanctimonious calls for restraint, especially in the aftermath of sustaining a major terrorist attack in Kashmir.
27
@Rohit Lal How is this a terrorist attack? It's an attack by an entity that is openly fighting Indian occupation and has attacked and kill soldiers. There was no evidence of cross border transfer of person or material for the attack. Yes, it could be financed or has clandestine Pakistan support but by no definition it is a terrorist attack. Terrorism is the presence of 500-600k Indian soldiers in that region (state of J&K) - Why? To fight a population majority that generally wants to be with India?
1
@Rohit Lal If you went to Hiroshima and Nagasaki you would call for restraint all around. In this day and age, and considering the generational trauma and ecological devastation of not only nuclear strikes but violence in general, we have no time to waste in learning how to use diplomacy. If only there were political will.
1