I plan on teaching my kids that sex is something you do WITH someone, not TO someone. If either person walks away from the encounter feeling bad about it, then it was bad sex.
What is missing from this article, and many like it, is that most men DO seem capable of understanding consent and being respectful. I dated a lot in my 20s, and the vast majority of men treated me respectfully and respected my boundaries. That said, there were a few that didn't, so I know that the issue isn't a rarity. Still, I have little sympathy for guys feeling like they are being victimized....if most men can be respectful, they rest can too.
However, I was always confident in my decision to set boundaries. If they pressured me after I clearly said no, that was the end of things with that guy. I found it disrespectful and incredibly unattractive.
We need to teach our boys to be respectful, but we also need to teach our girls to be confident in saying no.
85
The author didn’t address the significance alcohol and recreational drugs plays in many of these cases. Unless the woman has been slipped a date rape drug, she has the power and responsibility to stay coherent enough to protect herself and stop believing that the man is supposed to protect her from herself. If women really want to control their own bodies then they must take responsibility for their own actions.
62
Women should also be taught to say no assertively in sexual situations. “I don’t want to but I guess I’ll let you” is wishy-washy and not a good model of communication for women to follow. Men should be held to account for bad behavior but women need to speak up and act in ways that clearly convey what they do or do not want to do.
70
How is that males around the world were ALL absent on Keep Your Hands to Yourself Day in kindergarten? The global patriarchal son culture + ancient cult misogynist religions stack the deck against 3.4 billion females, and none are safe anywhere from any of the 3.2 billion males, because males want it to be that way. They get off on terrifying and controlling females, infant to granny, sick twists that most are.
47
Until women’s right advocates prosecutors charge both the man and the women with sexual assault when both are drunk, don’t talk to me about women’s equality.
45
"But rarely do they define what, precisely, they mean by that. Did they discuss, with an enthusiastic partner, which erotic acts to indulge in together? Or were they satisfied that whatever they initiated was fine as long as she didn’t say no? Did they consider passionate kissing a tacit contract for something else? "
Right.
Thank you, metoo, for turning something that is supposed to be enjoyable into something that should now be cold, calculated, pre-vetted, pre-signed, notarized, and with sealed copies safely stored with all parties' lawyers in advance of the agreed-upon time and place of said 'interaction'.
Oye. And no, before you jump down my throat, I'm not talking about obvious rape or coercion. But I am so utterly tired of this topic, and how all-or-nothing the movement has made everything to be. Sex and relationships (however fleeting) and people and life ain't all cut-and-dry and perfect, much as you may like it to be.
62
Women are as aggressive as men these days. On Wall Street, in Hollywood, in politics.
No wonder boys and men believe that aggression is the norm. They follow the lead of women, not just their peers and other male role models.
Aggression is in fashion because it gets you things, money, power, stature and most of all attention.
If women want to see young men and adult males behave better, they have to start with themselves. Tone down the demands, for everything, cars, money, clothes, more clothes, and attention.
Yes, if this sounds like the rants of angry men, that is exactly what you have out there. Angry men, who want sex, money, power and attention.
Get the picture?
24
With the push for gender equality being what it is: "Disclosure" 1994 film. Otherwise.. all of these stories are just paintin' all the gals as baby deer and paintin' all the fellas as wolves.
Gender equality, folks; gender equality.
26
I wish this headline read: "It's not that *some* men don't know what consent is."
The suggestion that ALL men know what consent is but glibly ignore it to satisfy their carnal needs is the kind of gross caricature we would never accept about any other group.
In a newspaper so keenly attuned to the smallest of microaggressions and awash in identity politics, you'd think they'd be a little more precise.
40
More and more I find that men disgust me.
39
A big problem is that in our paternalistic society, there is the understanding that "good girls don't" and therefore women are often in a position where they will verbalize hesitancy to continue a sexual encounter as a way to ameliorate guilt feelings and to try and protect their reputation from slut-shaming ... while wanting to continue with an encounter they actually desire.
34
The author really undercuts her credibility by referring to the Kavanaugh case - assuming the author selected the photo with the article.
The Kavanaugh case is as notorious as the Duke lacross team case and the UVA Rolling Stone case.
Christine Blasey Ford can't say
How one 15 year old girl overpowered two 17 year boys
Where the incident occurred
When
How she got there
How she got home
There is no statue of limitations for attempted rape in Maryland. Yet Ford still has not filed a complaint with police.
Ford's story has more holes than a 50 pound wheel of Swiss cheese.
27
I know a lot of ‘good men’ who need to change their mind sets a full 360 degrees when it comes to how they treat women when it comes to sex .. the concepts that are out there about how women need to be ‘persuaded’ and pushed into doing something they would not have wanted to do are from another century .
It is what is propagated by the media and by the entertainment we have on a daily basis be it movies that exalt the male perspective or the porn that most men consume.
Yes means yes and No means no and asking consent at every turn should be ingrained in all - but that is clearly not what is happening now.
That the Metoo movement is exposing many many acts that would be considered pretty criminal or heinous is absolutely no surprise given this culture.
30
Too many men with too many hormones propelling them. Part of the answer is to legalize prostitution, so that they have an outlet.
17
Talking to many men over my long life, I can assure you that a great many men have absolutely no idea what consent means. A great many men see sexual encounters as something they do TO someone, not WITH someone.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
42
Luckily, Amazon Echo's new Consent Skill can solve this problem. It's AI trained using data from observed formally attested consensual sexual encounters, detects sexual activity the moment it begins (e.g., lip smacking, buttons popping) and then asks the participants at each stage for explicit verbal consent. If it doesn't detect sufficient enthusiasm from all parties, it informs them that the session is being recorded and that any of the participants may choose to forward the evidence. In its strict mode, the evidence is automatically send to the Consent Center's reviewers who then pass it on to legal authorities at their discretion.
Seriously, in the absence of such Orwellian panopticons, the ambiguity of most sexual encounters (i.e., those that don't result in physical evidence of coercion) are not resolvable in any fair way.
A culture that previously labelled a sexually active unmarried woman as a slut, is on its way to label every sexually active unmarried male as a predator.
I don't know any easy answer to this. In the case of my family, my children are aware of the behavior of all animals and that we, as animals too, are subject to the unfairness of the sexual dimorphism of our species, and to act to protect both their bodies and their feelings.
If you find this point-of-view cold, you just haven't looked at the evidence. Peggy Ornstein's descriptions are accurate, but the solution is far from clear.
17
When will we learn that cruelty is a turn-on for some people? Rapists aren't confused about consent.It's all about forcing another human being to do something they detest.
29
RE: Sometimes, boys I talk to acknowledge having willfully crossed lines. One college sophomore had repeatedly ignored his partner’s hesitation during a hookup, despite his own professed scrupulousness about consent.
Are college sophomores boys? In order to get around the boys/men girls/women age issue maybe just use male / female?
Also there is an error elsewhere. The author writes about men that she likes. Guess she means men whom she likes.
6
It really comes down to respect and seeing your partner as another human beeing with wishes and desires and moods just like yourself. It takes a certain level of maturity to see this, but American culture is so sex obsessed and so infanilizing, that many men never get there and often view a woman as a sex object, especially in a frat like party environment. These conversations have to start at home where fathers have to tell their sons to treat women with respect and better yet treat their wives well. "Frat" environment should be discouraged and relegated to hicks and rednecks and not be endemic in institutions of elite learnings. We can write and talk about it all we want, but the education has to begin at home.
21
Not to be facetious, but is there anyone on this forum who was not patently aware of human behavior by the time they were 12? Next week, academia will discover fire.
23
This behavior is sometimes exhibited, not by assault - although that is tragically too common. Sometimes it is demonstrated by an arrogant "I know better than you because I am male" attitude. In January, I made it clear that I was not interested in pursuing a VERY short-lived relationship. (As in, two dates.) He persisted with "you know we are perfect for each other" texts. I blocked him, etc.
Valentine's morning I found a sexually intimate (kind of gross) poem, written to me, with roses...on my front porch. He had to drive two hours to do this.
Next stop, for me, was the police station.
27
Intelligent, well-educated, otherwise tame young men are dealing with a powerful evolutionary imperative when they are sexually aroused. While this powerful force is great for the existence and preservation of the species it does have a dark side. Sex education is the answer.
19
In America a girl is expected to have sexual relations by the age of fourteen, same with boys. It's mandatory, not by state or federal law, but by mandate of social norm. Virgins are identified and shamed, taunted, offered up as one who has not yet been initiated. Peer pressure of American society tells children that they must have sex by the age of fourteen. If you make it to college and are still a virgin then you have to rectify that situation and the schools are set up to facilitate that conversion to "adulthood". That's why we have frats, frat parties, spring break and girls gone wild. It's why college towns are profit centers for the beer and alcohol industry. The ultimate purpose in sending your kids away to college is to make sure they have sex. It's a required step to being integrated into America's system of social control.
10
Of the many things that disturb me me about “affirmative consent ” advocacy is their deliberate, knowing and conscious efforts to manipulate the language. ”Rape” is the use of force or incapacitating drugs to have sex with an unwilling partner. It is not regret because he ignored your texts the day after you hooked up. ”Coercion” is the use of force or violence, or the threat of such force or violence, to get them to do something they do not want to do willingly. It is NOT pressuring or guilting someone into doing something they are reluctant to do - that’s called ”persuasion”. Consent can be enthusiastic. It also can be reluctant or hesitant - if you give the police ”consent” to search your vehicle, the fruits of that search are admissible no matter how unenthusiastic that consent was. Most sexual encounters involve one party that’s a bit more into it than the other party. Men and women take different paths to ending up in bed together. One of these mating strategies isn’t inherently more pure and virtous than the other, irrespective of the fact that some sex results from immoral behaviours on the part of one gender or the other in a small percentage of cases.
32
What is the solution to this short of marriage? Written contracts of consent filed with - who?
5
Many commenters harp on the biological fact that men have strong sex drives thanks to evolution. Who denies it? But there are wide differences between cultures and historical eras in the frequency of rape. So there are cultural conditions––attitudes, penalties, expectations––that make a difference.
It's very clear that rape rates go *down* when men in a given culture are expected to care more about what women think and want. This attitudinal factor is precisely what Orenstein is pointing to.
Why is it so threatening to say that, even in modern America, women (in the aggregate) still don't matter as much as men (in the aggregate), and that is relevant to incidents of coercion and rape? It's disheartening to read so many people who seem irritated or even angry at the call to change this.
36
It is a silly premise to say that men know what consent is.
Courts don’t have a consistent standard of consent.
Juries argue all the time what constitutes consent.
Legislators disagree about what consent is.
School administrations tasked with developing standards of consent can’t do it.
Women themselves don’t have a common undestanding of consent.
Individual women themselves may have inconsistent, poorly defined or changing rules for what consistutes their own consent.
What really underlies the premise of “men know what consent is” is the legal concept of “strict liability” which basically says that one will never be able to argue that consent was given when accused of sexual misconduct. It is an arguement for a ruleset where an accusation by a woman (or man for that matter) by itself is enough to assume guilt.
243
Two words need to be said here -- Brett Kavanaugh... How can any woman feel truly safe in this country whilst he sits on the highest court in the land?
24
Have the men ask themselves: Would I be comfortable if a man did this to ME?
30
Ms. Orenstein's premise ignores the real bear in the room. She assumes that women give or withhold consent in a clear way, that men understand this, but persist in what then becomes a sexual assault. What hogwash.
Readers should listen to the Radiolab podcast "In the No," in which the narrator describes situations during which she herself was uncertain if she had given consent, and situations during which she gave consent but later decided it really was not consent, or simply regretted what had happened.
Short of a clearly stated "stop," sex constitutes continuously fluctuating feelings and motivations about what is unfolding in a ongoing dance of tenderness, aggression, teasing, and mutual "coercion." It's simply not a legalistic binary calculus of "ongoing affirmative consent." If you're not ready for this reality, then maybe its not a good time to get high and get a room.
17
As the parent of three sons, what I find lacking is any discussion of the part played by role models. If Dad is sexist and demeans women, it's likely his sons will behave similarly. But if Dad is thoughtful , empathetic and respectful toward all human beings, kids are likely to internalize those attitudes. Parents, some of this is on you!
21
RE: "In my own interviews with high school and college students conducted over the past two years, young men that I
like enormously...."
Guess the author means young men WHOM I like
8
The author may have made very good points in this article. I personally condemn sexual assault of any kind; believe the behavior is reprehensible and must be punished.
Unfortunately, the author lost me the first time she used the word "they" referring to all young men as a single class. Whenever someone uses the word "they", referring to a whole class of people I tune out. "They" becomes a highly offensive word I have heard all too many time referring to racial groups, ethnic groups ( my own Italian-American group include), sexual orientation, and gender. Once you refer to a category as "they", you subject that group to the worst type of stereotype and generalization. No group should ever be stereotyped. No, not even young men.
10
"our employers, our clergymen, our favorite celebrities, our politicians, our Supreme Court justices — but they are “monsters” nonetheless." We really shouldn't rehash this whole political firestorm, but it's really just despicable of the author to call Brett Kavanaugh a monster for a 40 year old accusation for which there's zero positive evidence and substantial negative circumstantial evidence. It's even worse for her to equate him with the monsters in the Catholic church covering up decades of abuse of children by adults.
14
I don't think this is about communication. It is about toxic gender conception ingrained in our culture.
For more than 1,000 years now, we've cultivated a conception of sexuality where sex among human beings belongs to the "animal" and "flesh" aspects of who we are. That came to mean both the most abject and the "deepest" or most real part of who we are.
Simultaneously, we've ignored what neurologists today call the "compassionate instinct", and falsely imagined that being kind means being civilized - which implies that being brutal and agressive/violent means being "animal" ... or being true to your real self, especially as a man.
Being a real man, in this cultural paradigm, means having a constant, irresistible desire for sex. Being a real woman means having a constant desire to be dominated and desired and "taken" by a man. And of course, wanting to dominate is translated as being "strong", and wanting to be dominated as being "weak".
As long as we cultivate these notions, rather than much more accurate conceptions of gender such as those promoted by Barack and Michelle Obama, boys and men will continue to imagine that they HAVE to be brutal to be a real man. It's our culture that programs them to continue even after a woman explicitly says no.
Just blaming the perpetrators and harassers here won't change anything. We all - men and women - need to start working hard to create healthier gender conceptions, if we want sex to be deeply human and satisfying, for both..
9
Antioch rules aren't for everybody. Most women I know actually made more fun of them than men.
Often, "maybe" means perhaps yes, not presumptive no. Sorry, but sex in the real world is full of gray areas. In that spirit...
Yes means yes.
No means no.
Maybe means maybe.
Don't say (or act like) maybe if you really mean no.
Don't ever say yes if you mean no.
Don't expect your companion to read your mind.
If you are still presenting in the maybe zone, don't pretend surprise at persistence for yes.
Act like an adult, with agency.
36
It’s one thing to educate these entitled, ‘misguided’ boys and men, but quite another to shift the blame entirely on men, with women shouldering no responsibility, whatsoever.
I’m not talking about victim-bashing here, just some honest self-introspection that men are so often encouraged to conduct these days. That means rethinking ‘dressing like sex workers’ with skimpy and flimsy clothes on and definitely RETHINKING meeting these celebrities or other influential men at their hotels for a job interview or some personal gain. If men are to exercise sound judgment, so too should women in how they act, dress and present themselves when interacting with powerful or influential men or men in general.
One comedian said it best, ‘’if men walked around with police uniforms on, that might give people the wrong idea. (of course impersonating a police officer is an offence. It’s a joke!). Simply put, seeing women dressed in skimpy, salacious outfits gives the wrong impression. Of course, it doesn’t give anyone the license to hurt or sexually assault women because of the way they are dressed, but it certainly scream ‘respect me’, to say the least.
Let’s try to find a middle ground before it’s too late.
It’s either going to be men donning burkas/‘shades toujours’ here in North America to avoid being sued for how they looked at someone.
Or better yet for the non-legal fraternity aka ‘misguided men’, those AI dolls will soon become the ‘best gift a man can get’.
11
A friend of mine walked a woman back to her apartment after a second date, and asked if she wanted him to come in. She said no. They kept seeing each other and started a sexual relationship. She later told him that she said no because she didn't want him to meekly ask to come in, she wanted him to push her up against the wall and kiss her. If he'd done that on that second date, she'd have taken him inside and had sex with him.
Consent, and respect and sensitivity to your partner or prospective partner's desires, are super important. But our conversations around these issues often leave out that many women find a certain amount of forcefulness on a man's part to be attractive. They find the "Can I put my hand here? Do you mind if I kiss you?" approach to sex a huge turnoff. Unless we acknowledge and deal with that, these conversations will always have an aspect of unreality.
27
The omnipresent image in film, theatre, advertising and Netflix is that women are tough, bold, outspoken and unwilling to take prisoners. Commercials routinely depict them as savvier and more clearly thinking than their doofus male counterparts. Box receipts and product success clearly indicate that women love this portrayal.
It should not be so difficult for them to say "No!" And mean it.
8
It is the height of intellectual dishonesty to think that men's judgment, inhibition, and ability to accurately recollect actions and feelings are more strongly affected by alcohol than are women's judgment inhibition, and ability to accurately recollect.
The minute booze enters interactions that end in sex of any kind, all bets for a good outcome are off. Want to change things having to do with consent? Start enforcing underage drinking laws and kick kids out of high school and college for doing so.
10
I think the disconnect is that young men don’t understand the magnitude of the offense. How many men would cut someone off in traffic to get their way? But how few would kill to get their way?
A drunk man who has been educated by popular media (showing women’s refusals overcome by the protagonist’s persistence) can easily convince himself that he is just mildly inconveniencing his date. That her absence of enthusiam and unsteady no merely indicates mild disapproval, as if he were voting for the wrong candidate in an election. Which his very strong feelings on the matter must outweigh.
If men now know how to recognize a lack of consent, but think their actions do no harm because they were “relatively minor” maybe the education needs to move on to showing just how much damage a “relatively minor” rape can do. Help them realize that the offense is closer to murder than to being a rude driver.
18
I believe that women should be held accountable for the sexual decisions that they make. It is ludicrous to believe that sex is not on the menu when you accompany a man to his apartment after a night of repartee, or if he calls and asks you to come over after 10 pm. I also think that when women agree to trade sex for advancement they should not later complain, the time to negotiate terms is before the contract is executed, not after. Women also have to accept responsibility for making good decisions, and should not put themselves in situations that they do not control. The only women I have sympathy for are under-aged girls who are taken advantage of by older predators.
19
It’s one thing to educate these entitled, ‘misguided’ boys and men, but quite another to shift the blame entirely on men, with women shouldering no responsibility, whatsoever.
I’m not talking about victim-bashing here, just some honest self-introspection that men are so often encouraged to conduct these days. That means rethinking ‘dressing like a prostitute’ with skimpy clothes on and definitely RETHINKING meeting these celebrities or other influential men at their hotels for a job interview or some personal favour. If men are to exercise sound judgment, so too should women in how they act, dress and present themselves when interacting with powerful or influential men or men in general.
One comedian said it best, ‘’if men walked around with police uniforms on, that might give people the wrong idea. (of course impersonating a police officer is an offence. It’s a joke, obviously). Simply put, women dressed in skimpy, salacious outfits gives the wrong impression. Of course, it doesn’t give anyone the license to hurt or sexually assault women just because of the way they are dressed, but it certainly doesn’t demand or scream ‘respect’, to say the least.
Let’s try to find a middle ground before it’s too late.
It’s either going to be men donning burkas/‘shades toujours’ here in North America to avoid being sued for how they looked at someone.
Or better yet for the non-legal fraternity aka ‘misguided men’, those AI dolls will soon become the ‘best gift a man can get’.
Not once did the author ever consider that in many sexual situations , consent is never 100% by women as well as both parties. As such, after the fact, there may feelings of guilt to which the female party may feel and even contend that she did not give "full consent" giving rise to a possible sexual assault allegation.. The author's article loses merit when she doesn't even address this possibility.. Yes men do horrible things and do assault women. But to contend that any contention of assault must be given 100% credibility when the assault may merely represent a feeling of guilt because consent was not 100% does a disservice to sexual relations and to valid claims of sexual assault in general
7
The war on men continues. How did it ever become acceptable to make blanket statements about 50% of the population? It’s wrong. It’s wrong to say it, and it’s wrong to publish it.
9
Yet another “all men are rapists” piece from the NYTimes.
What bothers me is not that there are men being held accountable- who man who behave badly, which there are, but the fact that the larger issues of sex, and sexuality are completely ignored or addressed only obliquely but the times.
Being single once again the modern sexual paradox rears its ugly head; men get no “attraction points” from women for acting nicel. In fact, men who do not act aggressively or assert themselves or act in a traditionally masculine fashion end up turning women off.
As a man, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been rejected by a woman, and have found out either directly through her, or her friends later, that it was because I didn’t act aggressively or masculine enough on the date(s).
Men are expected to initiate relationships and sex, yet if we don’t do everything perfectly we’re in trouble.
While I realize my comment will be interpreted as victim blaming, which it’s not, it’s about time women initiated sex or relationships themselves and took that power and control back.
It may also be worth considering why women end up being attracted to bad guys who abuse them and act in ways as described in this in many other articles. The majority of guys I know, and myself being included in that, have never done anything close to what’s being discussed in these articles.
9
I know you all don’t want to hear this, but “zero tolerance” is just not going to work as a society. The line between “consent” and “assault” is never going to be black and white. So unless we want to lock up all men (not possible) and ban sex (also not possible) the benefit of the doubt must always go to the accused ( which is the law).
3
I was with a new girlfriend back in 1985 while I was in grad school; she was a townie of about 30 who lived across the street. When the intimacy was about to proceed to intercourse, she said softly, "Please, don't do this to me." So I didn't. Then she was very disappointed. Her plaintive comment had been a rhetorical one, but I took her at her word. A lot of us, both male and female, like to feel like we've been overpowered a little by the opposite sex--it's just a feeling; the thing that enhances sex most is what's in the brain. Well, it's a little confusing isn't it?
8
I'm beginning to think that Amy Schumer isn't all that funny. I am also thinking that since a majority of men and women do not think that going home after meeting does not mean anything automatic, it is unfair to label the entire sex as entitled. I think it also interesting that almost one in three women do think that means intercourse. That is enough to sustain the notion, but more importantly shows that this is not exclusively a male entitlement problem. We should examine the behavior of both sexes. Paula Jones was repulsed by Bill Clinton. Others weren't Men like Clinton figure it is part of the game. Win some, lose some, But as long as there is a chance to win...
4
Is no one marveling at this powerful instinct mother Nature has endowed our human species ? It’s urge is so strong that people have sex against all rationality. But it’s tuning is so dispersed among us specimen that extremes are problematic : at one end of the curve you’re not operational ; at the other end you’re “a monster”. Tune the average down a smidgen, and humanity disappears. What is it that we want, exactly ?
2
I don't understand it. If men are so bad, if their behavior is a common knowledge among women, and women still agree to have sex with those men - where's the problem?
5
I think there are two persistent issues here: One is that young men in general still think of women only as conquests and not as humans with wants, needs, and desires of their own. It's much easier to bend the rules of consent when one doesn't actually think of their partner as a fellow person, but rather just a "hookup" to fulfill an immediate sexual need. Hence the excuses along the lines of "well, why was she at the frat party then if she didn't want sex?" "Why is she on Tinder if she didn't want to hook up?"
The second is that we have made sexual desire among young people a source of shame. And in doing so, said young people are binge drinking/drugging to overcome the shame and the social stigma of wanting sex in the first place. The problem with this, of course, is that consent is simply not possible when both parties are sloppy drunk or high. And further, sex under those conditions is likely not very good for either party, so why do it? Sexual pleasure is much better when both people are fully present.
Women are not prey and sex is not dirty. If we can raise our kids to be less uptight and more respectful of others' boundaries, we'll all be a lot better off.
257
I'm a woman. Twenty years ago, when I was in my early twenties, I had a guy friend (totally straight) who used to sleep over at my house after a night out with mutual friends because he lived in the next town over and often missed the very last train of the day, with no other way to get home (pre-Uber). I lived in a studio - there wasn't even another room for him. But it was never awkward. There was no question of ever getting sexual - we were friends and not trying to to be anything else. I never was afraid, because he was (and still is) a gentleman. Men like this do exist. And just because he was in my apartment at night alone with me does not mean that it was an invitation for sex. Some men, believe it or not, are smart enough to understand this.
14
It seems almost quaint to think of a time when women argued *against* generalizing on the basis of sex. Hint: it was before "sex" morphed into "gender".
7
Humans exist within a set of complex, intersecting webs of cultural and biological factors, many of which can be in direct contradiction.
As animals, we are programmed to reproduce, and thus to have sex. This reality is complicated by the differences in how males and females perceive this urge. The male version seems much simpler, made up of a primal drive that finds many females attractive as potential partners. Female urges are a more complex duality, a desire to mate on one hand, offset on the other by a need to create a relationship that will provide assistance in nurturing any offspring that result from mating.
Being a civilized male, then, requires a wilful tamping down of the sort of biological rut that some species practice, and a conscious restricting of one’s urges. We males have to be taught to follow tenets of civilized behavior, which, if not actually designed by females, tends to at least incorporate rules and regulations that females require in order to raise children. This is difficult, as every parent learns when teaching kids about how you can’t just do whatever you want. Thus, practicing restraint is a feature, not a flaw of socialization.
It’s kind of like in the Karate Kid when Mr. Miyagi teaches Danny to “Wax on, wax off.” The work itself wasn’t the point, the self-discipline was, just as self-discipline in one’s sex life brings greater, more lasting, satisfaction.
3
I remember my father warning teenage me before going out: he said, "I'm not worried about you, but I know how boys think." I responded by saying "Then boys need to change how they think!"
10
@April. As a father I can assure you that demanding boys think differently isn't any protection against what they are thinking. It is, at best, a long term project.
5
One thing that's troublesome about the discussion that even to this day it's still supposed to be the man who asks and the woman who consents.
This not only makes little sense but it sets up a very unequal relationship that is part of the root of this issue.
19
To the extent that some degree of aggressiveness by the male in the pursuit of sex is part of human biological nature, or at least perceived as such, then it seems to me that part of the message that needs to be conveyed to men is that part of respecting women sexually may mean going against one's own nature to some degree. That is, in order to say that one is scrupulous about consent, one must own up to the fact that this means suppressing what are perceived as natural desires and impulses. I don't think this point usually makes it into the lessons about consent.
13
It’s hard to know whether the author is advocating some change in the law or a moral code of conduct.
As far as morality is concerned, in the old days it was simple: any sex outside of marriage was shameful (more so for women than men, but shameful for everyone nonetheless) The advantage of the old moral code was simplicity- it was easy enough for everyone to understand. But then feminism came along and substituted this idea of “consent,” which is far more complicated- no matter what anyone says.
As far as the law is concerned, the standard of proof is “beyond a reasonable doubt” and will never ever be “believe all women”
9
Your recall of the “old days” is very different from mine. Then, as now, the moral burden of premarital sex has always come down harder on women. In fact men are often envied for their conquests.
And who gets to be shamed as wicked for having “gotten pregnant” while unmarried? I’ll let you guess.
7
What ever happened to the simple pleasures of just having fun? Why must everything be so fraught, demarcated and drained of whimsy?
19
@Rennata
If by "simple pleasues", like joking around and conversing by the lake, I would agree with you. If the matter involves the possibility of criminal charges after the unobjected-to act, I think the situation is inherently fraught, it should be demarcated and it should be devoid of whimsy.
6
@Rennata Wilson As in all things, somewhere there is a happy medium. But metoo wants everything from hand-holding to outright penetration to not occur until such time as a notarized document of consent (including mind-numbing details of what that consent looks like...who can do what to whom, and in what order, and when and where, etc.) has been secured and properly filed with ones' lawyers', in advance.
6
Rape isn’t whimsical.
10
The idea of the act of sex being a "civil" act is misleading. All this rationalization and question asking takes place from a perspective that we (men AND women) are engaging in the civil, rational part of our brains. This is not true. Engaging the animalistic part of our brains is not the same and is counter to our rational perspective. This is how we are made. The idea that we can somehow flip a switch inside of us to suddenly become rational while in the midst of foreplay is not realistic. The conversations should focus on where we each individually draw our own personal lines of no return. If we don't think our potential hookup is going to cross that line with us, I suppose we should just walk away, since there seems to be no more acceptable wiggle room these days for the clumsiness we all encounter when trying to mate.
16
The comment is in no way meant to excuse bad behavior. I was raised sheltered and Catholic. When I went away to college I was inexperienced and naive and learning. Throughout those 4 years of countless parties, and many one on one physical encounters with more boys than I can count, and with alcohol often involved, I understood that there was no one but me looking out for me, and maintained enough control over myself to do only what I felt comfortable doing, and in every situation was afforded that choice. Yes I now understand how fortunate I was. I wish to give a shout out to all of those boys who respected my wishes and those of other girls like me.
24
A positive sea change is taking place in our sociocultural attitudes and protocols regarding the complex interactions of females and males when it comes to sex. I hope we will all support it enthusiastically. Ms. Orenstein’s proclamation that “women’s accusations are inherently more credible than male denial, regardless of how vehement that denial may be”, however, strikes me as patently absurd. Presumption of guilt as a guiding principle will not lead to justice. Nor will presumption of truth based on the gender of a claimant. How’bout we neither deny nor dismiss the right of all parties in any kind of dispute to receive serious consideration of their claims...and refrain from forming judgments until all knowable facts have been explored?
16
Perhaps a big problem with consent is that its definition can change between the night before and the morning after.
30
Clearly any non consensual act is wrong but so is false accusation and the damage that flows from it. UVA and DUKE just to name a couple of many. As the parent of a young male who not to long ago was an undergraduate, I hope he was taught right from wrong. With that being said when he was in college, he innocently mentioned to me that he spent his prior weekend as a designated driver. When I inquired further he let me know for certain gatherings he would not drink and would drive intoxicated peers back to dorms. He then proceeded to tell me he would assist intoxicated young women to their rooms and make sure they made it to bed safely. Perhaps this was admirable but I strongly urged him to discontinue the practice given today’s climate of not even a modicum of due process if you are accused. We have reached a sad state
27
@Patrick
You'd have been a better parent to advise him to continue with his heartfelt humanity but to have a like-minded female co-pilot with him in these missions.
5
During the period a few years ago when I was attempting online dating I found that men my age (late 50’s) would accept my ‘no’ and move on. The men in their 20’s and 30’s overwhelmingly, repeatedly refused to take no for an answer, even when I pointed out the age difference. I do worry for the young ladies coming of age now.
11
Dead on. Too often, men have difficulty viscerally understanding that sexuality is a partnership, that women aren't somehow like a water heater that delivers hot sex on demand. Yes, they're wonderfully different, but hold on, that also means they also *want* different things in different ways.
And, if the guy opens to that, he may just find that he does too.
My IAnherst 1969 classmates are generally pretty aware, but a substantial minority had no idea of how common sexual assault and abuse was (virtually all women I am close to have been abused or assaulted at some time), that college is an unhappy hunting ground for the same. They asked, 'Why would a parent send their daughter to college if that were true....QED it doesn't exist'. My response: You clueless idiots, that's the world women live in. Hint: the same guys are "conservative", I guess because it conserves their illusions. Read on the web: 'When you've been privileged, equality feels like persecution'
14
The truth is, when anyone generalizes about a group defined by ___, that is called ___ism. When that group is defined by sex, the applicable word is "sexism."
11
"..young men that I like enormously — friendly, thoughtful, bright, engaging young men — have “sort of” raped girls, have pushed women’s heads down to get oral sex, have taken a Snapchat video of a prom date performing oral sex and sent it to the baseball team."
Uuuuh, is it normal for a prom date to perform oral sex? Is it normal to video this act and send it to the baseball team? If so, it seems difficult for a boy not to expect this, and even more difficult for a girl to say no.
4
The bottom line of this article is that EVERY woman should learn martial arts. Nothing is as clear after a "NO" is ignored as an elbow in a place that hurts a lot or a kick in the groin followed by an offer to break both his arms and then his legs or to kill him with a single blow or to snap his neck if he still doesn't get the point. This won't work with gang rape, but it stops most people.
6
I wish people would stop suggesting self defense for women as a solution to rape. For one thing, I’m not sure it’s likely to work since most men are bigger and stronger than their partners. For another, you aren’t fixing the problem but putting all responsibility on the victims.
Bottom line, for every women’s self defense class there should be an anti-rape class for men.
3
@Barbara Reader ….and if something goes wrong, and she doesn't subdue him completely that young woman is going to be beaten up badly, possibly even killed.
I don't think the answer to this social problem is that young women all become advanced martial artists, or Navy SEALs. Women should not have to literally fight their way out of dating situations.
I often wonder if the human race is not literally doomed.
5
As the narrative about what being a "man" is, the behavior will change. Heterosexual boys and men are into the tribal sharing of "conquests," and that virgin/whore thing seems to never go away. Men, women are complex humans who are neither virgins nor whores. We are as entitled as you are to being treated with respect.
Change the peer pressure narrative since boys and men seem so influenced by it. What if it was not cool at all to objectify a woman? What if men shamed each other for not respecting women? I suspect the idea of conquests may shift.
Until then, girls and women need to stick together if drinking or in potentially vulnerable situations. Girls and women should feel that every boy or man is a potential rapist. That sounds drastic but until boys and men are owning what consent is or is not, girls and women need to feel cynical and therefore approach with great caution or be entirely sure of how far they want to take things in a romantic encounter. Apparently, nuance and ambiguity don't work so well.
10
I came up in the late sixties, the Love Generation, when even shy and insecure little guys like me could get laid. The girls newly liberated by the pill and before the specter of deadly HIV were the aggressors. Otherwise I might still be a virgin. What I learned was simple. I show my interest and admiration and wait for her response. If she is interested she will let me know. And this has served me well for fifty years.
17
Whatever happened to romance? To lifelong commitment? And high time men and women understand sex is different for males and females. Females won't emotional connection, males to get their rocks off. Men use the word "love" to get sex, and women use sex to get long. And women's arousal takes longer than men's. We must realize there is a point of no return for a male when we kiss and hug and play touch-feely; he has an erection which demands to be satisfied. Guys, the difference between rape and seduction is patience; gals, if you don't want to go all the way, don't start down that road.
8
@Anne Russell correction typos: want (not won't) and "love" (not long). I apologize.
1
I am guilty of things I wish I had never done. Several things, in fact. I am not trying to avoid responsibility for them. Almost all of them happened when I was drunk (which was frequently in my younger life- I no longer drink). I am ashamed for what I did. I would go back and apologize for what I did if I could remember the names and what exactly happened. One thing I do know is never, not once, ever, did anyone talk to me, not at home and not in school, about the proper way to treat women, and the way to handle commonly encountered situations. I am not trying to make excuses or condone what I did. What I am trying to say is when you figure out in life that you have screwed up, especially multiple times and badly, you wonder where it all went wrong. I could attribute it to "That's not what I was taught as a young man", but, in my case, I wasn't. You learn on the fly. How did my peers handle these situations? And it all became so easy if I had another beer. Women are now telling men what they need to hear. And have needed to hear for a long, long time. They are teaching us lessons we should have learned long, long ago. I can't undo the past. The best thing a man can do is pass on the lessons women are sharing. And say "I am sorry".
413
@walking man
Thanks for expressing what is certainly a reflection of my misspent youth. Better late than never, but we still have to be aware of just what led us down that path and more often than not it is the avoidance of truth.
Obfuscation or denial are most easily employed in our culture which was in fact founded with more than a dollup of both. The acceptance of our boys will be boys behavior is not a mistake rather a plan which avoids responsibility If we listen and follow the words of women we may make it out of the mess we as men have created.
Apologies are doubtless welcome, but action and change are needed.
48
@walking man
Thanks for the insight -- I know many of us can identify with what you're saying. However, I would not be so hard on your younger self (unless you did something really bad, but given the way you've expressed your remorse about whatever it is you did, I doubt it). On the other hand, did the women whom you've been with also get drunk? Did they come on to you and engage in behavior that objectively could be construed as an indecent A&B by putting their hands on you? There are many men who are predators -- Weinstein, Trump, Moonves, Bundy, et als. These are the sociopaths among us. But there also are many women who have borderline personality disorder and mental health issues who are compulsive and vindictive liars and who are motivated by revenge and financial gain to make false accusations. Unfortunately, any allegation of misconduct these days instantly destroys a man's reputation -- men are guilty until proven innocent. So yes, we unquestionably need to teach our young men how to behave properly -- but it takes two to tango and women need to be taught as well.
9
@walking man: Thank you for sharing this.
30
While I agree men need more, and better, education about sex and consent EVERYONE needs better sex education. It needs to be about more than stopping STIs and unwanted pregnancies. It needs to be more about mutual consent, yes, but also pleasure (something that can't be seriously talked about in sex ed classes in practically all schools today). If you know what you want and communicate it then there will be less misunderstanding and greater appreciation of consent.
10
If you want some insight, just google "How to get laid". I suspect the ideas about this - the prime objective of dating for many - might be informative.
When you have sex abusers like Trump in the White House that will only encourage more of this mixed up thinking only on the mens part. No means no . Trump needs his day in court with the 19 women we know of to bring justice and I hope an end to this bad behavior.
9
@D.j.j.k.: You mean the way Paula Jones took her assailant to court? That stopped nothing, as we plainly see.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
2
It's a shame that the NYT has been taken over totally by Ivy-League style moralism, male-bashing, politics of identity, and so on. People are not so simple. Judging them by their categorizations is stupid. The very definition of prejudice. I'm getting disgusted. One would really believe from reading the paper these days that every man is a rapist or would-be rapist, that women never use men or harass them sexually and otherwise (yes, it's happened to me more than once--butt grabbed, comments, tongue stuck down my throat); nor would one ever know that when a man chooses to end a relationship or simply escape the company of a woman she will attempt to frame him out of anger. It happens. Not all women are that way, some are some of the the time. I'm really getting tired of this uncomplicated bigotry.
36
Your response is a perfect example of “whataboutism”. The actions you described by women are terrible and inexcusable. But you didn’t dispute any of the social scientific data or facts in the article. This tells me that you can’t dispute the veracity of the article but you want equal time given to women behaving badly. However, the data bears out that women simply don’t behave the way you describe as frequently as men rewrite the rules of consent. When women behave badly it’s covered (Asia Argento, that midwestern politician in 2017). You can’t give equal coverage to something that doesn’t happen with the same frequency.
2
"Did they consider passionate kissing a tacit contract for something else?"
Yes, I think it would be. Not consent for any and everything, but I think it would be fair game test the waters for "something else."
19
Its an American thing. I grew up in Asia. It was not until I came to the US as a young college student that I realized the rules: check out every female rear-end, and spend every weekend trying to "get some."
That is not how young men think in Asia. I learned about the "American dream" upon arriving on these shores.
9
Did you read about the subway in China that has created women-only cars to avoid groping and harassment- which the men ignore and ride in anyway? These problems are not specific to a country or region.
10
@MoneyRules I assume you mean East Asia. If you think America is extreme try checking out West Asia.
2
@MoneyRules: Considering the population numbers in Asia, something's going on...
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
1
Expect more of the same as long as there are sexual predators in the White House and on the Supreme Court.
12
How about a less incendiary and more accurate headline?
It's not that SOME Men Don't Know What Consent Is
Subtitle:
SOME OF THEM often understand that what they're doing is wrong — then SOME OF THEM do it anyway.
If you actually read the study that Orenstein cites, it definitely doesn't make this conclusion: "All of which would indicate that in these high-profile cases, women’s accusations are inherently more credible than male denial, regardless of how vehement that denial may be."
The need for sex education so that all our kids are on same page of consent is going to require some very thorough conversations in our country. If parents and schools (especially Christian schools who defer to their abstinence curriculum) are not having this conversation with young men and women then perhaps when they apply for a driver's permit they can be required to attend a lecture on the subject. Same with the orientation the first day of college. Everyone of them needs to be strictly warned about boundaries and situations that increase vulnerability.
Once all our young men and women understand the rules of the mating game, because that is what it is, those who break the rules should be dealt with by the law.
This article adds nothing to the conversation.
7
I saw a Facebook post recently that said: "Straight men sure understand consent when they go to Gay bars."
47
Another great comment!
It’s every gay man’s fear. Making advances towards a straight man who is not bent that way!
1
This opinion shattered me, the male of the species are bigger and stronger than the female so they push and shove. In their minds these demands are normal...getting to first base. But worse was after forcing a female, they snap a picture or proudly tell their friends. Why is this OK, why must the woman's name be smeared for them to prove their prowess?
Sadly, this is part and parcel of the age old sexual dynamic between men and women. Boys will be boys...but women are tramps and need to be punished, stoned or bear the scarlet letter. If a woman is left pregnant, she has no recourse but to bear the burden of her guilt. The male of the species will not allow choices and the father is gone. Nothing has changed, in fact we have a misogynist President, Supreme Court Judge this is OK, but women will be punished.
8
How are we going to evolve when we've excepted that members of of own government, (The United States Congress), settled harassment cases behind closed doors with taxpayer dollars and yet since the #MeToo #TimesUp movements have become part of public consciousness their names have never been released to the American people? The was never a demand from the Female congressional members to do it. These Law makers stayed in office. Many most likely cast votes on the Kavanaugh nomination. Several Senators are running for president in 2020. Not one of them spoke out about holding these predators accountable then and I've not seen one person in the media ask them why. Trash Louis C.K. and others all you want for trying to go back to work. If we're not going to stop this and "out" the very people who's job it is to pass laws protecting the safety of women then the author is right. "Men are going to do it anyway".
6
"women’s accusations are inherently more credible than male denial, regardless of how vehement that denial may be."
Ms. Orenstein doesn't pursue that noncategorical statement to suggest any specific legislative recourse. At least, not here.
But I read Title IX, on steroids.
5
"The point, Ms. Zaloom said, is that in a sexual situation, you can’t make assumptions."
“Think of a bear.”
Sorry, but not a great example about not making assumptions. In biology class the students might learn about the sex life of bears, especially of male bears and Ms. Zaloom would do better to find some other example, even if bears do not usually rape.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3341907/The-sexual-habits-bears-mammals-promiscuous-deliberate-seeking-mate-murder-sex-not-known-rape-sexually-assault-humans.html
3
In every case Orenstein mentions, the minute the guy crosses the "yes means yes" line, the woman says "no" or struggles if she can't speak, making it really clear that the answer is no.
"No" is the word that makes it assault.
Communication is necessary in a mutual relationship. And telling someone "No" is clear communication. Both parties have the need to listen, but both need to speak, too.
When men say it's all consensual, they can hide behind everything - even lie to themselves - if they haven't heard the word no.
Speaking up doesn't stop rape when the assaulter is hellbent on assault. But it does assert rights, and is nonetheless necessary.
5
Another obtuse, esoteric, intellectualized version of all men are always the problem for everything.
After the NY Times rare columns on breastfeeding, don't obsess on numbers, ie gender stories that did not bash all men, the NY Times did not disappoint me with another Neo feminist male blaming story.
Ms. Orenstein 95% of men are not predators. If you want to paint the 5% of them that are into a corner and jail have women do the following like most of them are.
1-Don't condemn all men for all the problems in the world.
2-Don't wait 20 yrs. to do something about an incident.
3-Don't complain only when the roles, pay raises stop.
4-Don't accept money from known predators like Weinstein because they contribute to Neo feminist causes.
5-Worse don't start the sexual activity.
6-An yes, it is not victim blaming, true for men or women, don't put yourself into a situation where abuse can occur like heavy drinking, drug taking etc. while partying.
20
Thank you for stating this. It may not be popular opinion but did need to be said. I wholeheartedly agree.
15
@David L-Thank you for your reply. Yes it is heresy when I post like this on left wing sites like the NY Times.
I get the same negative response when I post anti bigot, a minority of men playing the white male card on right wing web sites.
That is the problem today, the extremes, right wing bigots and Neo feminists are running the show.
The extreme right won by a tko. (electoral college) with Trump.
6
@Paul
Not one of these 6 things are ideas Orenstein claimed or advocated.
If you think public discussions about consent and sex are flawed, why not address the particulate things (in this column, for instance) that you believe are unsubstantiated? The article cites actual studies, you know.
Creating a straw man like this makes it seem as if you simply want any public discussion to end.
1
I hope that the #MeToo continues to promote a reckoning on the whole idea of consent. While it is natural that women drive this discussion, I am already tired of hearing women explain male sexual urges, desires, and experiences.
6
" I dont want to but I will let you" is consent...
15
@rohit
I thought so, too, until I read the next sentence: "She then made it clear that he should stop." Consent can be revoked at any time.
4
@Barry Short
But not after the fact.
There's a mechanism in the drafting of documents where you provide the document to the other party and ask for their non-objection, which can be --but not always--indicated by silence. Coming back 3 weeks later, prior to closure, and saying you didn't really agree is fundamentally wrong.
2
This will continue to be a problem for as long as women refuse to do anything meaningful about it; most White women recently voted to elect a sexist pig to the highest office in the land. So frankly, I don't want to hear it anymore. When women get their own acts together, I'll start listening to these complaints again.
6
@Joe
50% of white women voted for Trump = those were married, religious conservative, Republican and undereducated who also remain cradle to grave under the thumb of either daddy or hubby - often for fear of getting the back of the hand upside the head.
Why is it not a problem when nearly 100% of black women voted for Obama, Clinton, and most Democrats in every local, state or federal election?
I have no sympathy for women who go to parties, get drunk, lose control and sleep with some guy and then scream rape the next morning just like I have no sympathy for drunk drivers who get into accidents or get DUIs. The over-alcoholic culture of America has contributed heavily to this nonsense situation with respect to consent. I also have no sympathy for women who say um maybe , i'm not sure but ok, and then scream rape the next morning, just like I have no sympathy for the guy who went ahead and bought an Audi he couldn't afford the payments for.
11
These "standards of consent" are anything but standard. I don't know a single couple who would have an itemised discussion of "which erotic acts to indulge in together". I don't know a single ordinary human who would not take "passionate kissing" as an unambiguous signal to do more. You can insist all you like that these things are not true because your ideology demands it. But they are.
The real bear in the room? Women aren't reliable arbiters of what is consensual either. It's dehumanising to imagine that they would be. That's because there is no "standard" of consent. It's just a lot of individuals muddling through.
26
At a party, a man who is much bigger than a woman, indicates he is strongly, sexually attracted to her. The woman, however, has no desire to have sex with the man. At the end of the party the man invites the woman to his house. She goes home with him and he tries to have sex with her. The woman should say at that point:
A: "Well I don't really want to give it to you but I guess you can have it."
B: "Stop, you are making me really uncomfortable. If you continue with this you will be committing rape."
C: None of the above. She shouldn't have gone home with him in the first place.
D: None of the above. The woman doesn't need to say anything. The man shouldn't be trying to have sex with her because the woman did not give express consent for that.
4
The woman in your hypothetical situation, may indeed, “strongly desire the man”, however, that is not where the matter ends for the woman- she must navigate the consequences of her desire in a way that the man will not, she must grapple with issues of physical safety and reputational damage, also the consequences of conception are hers alone to deal with as often would be the ensuing baby that would distort her body and rip her asunder, forever making her a mother and legally, socially and morally responsible for another human being for the rest of her life.
Grow up fella.
The consequences of ‘desire’ are not the same for men and women.
4
@Marlene Barbera
Dear deeply mature woman,
You're simply ignoring the hypothetical. What's your response to the hypothetical actually posed?
1
Anyone trying to address these issues with Statement like "all men" are doing damage to their argument or discussion before you finish the article. It's ignorant at best.
13
More of the same old stuff that extends from the universal logic that it's always the man's fault. The women, girls, are always innocent, pure angels, defenseless, helpless and impotent to resist or even communicate what they do not want. There are still females (human, natural born) in the world who are trained, conditioned, brought up to believe that a woman, girl, is expected to give herself to a man and that he can do what he will, especially if married. They are taught that it is their duty to submit. They play this game of leading a man on with suggestions, hints and provocations and let them 'have their way', then when it's not what they expected, play the sexual assault card.
Women libbers today are teaching young women, like this article, that women never contribute to any event where they are taken advantage of or 'assaulted'. They are told that speaking the language of sexual invitation with clothes and behavior is not a factor. They are told that going to a frat party in a short skirt, showing cleavage, binge drinking to to point of unconsciousness or allowing one's drink to be spiked is none of their doing and has absolutely nothing to do with how men respond to such invitations. They are blameless and victim blaming is the universal cry to any suggestion that a woman was careless. Men have to be taught not to rape.
But women are never taught not to be so gullible, willing, compliant and submissive. Your Christianity teaches this submissiveness.
8
Maybe a man can tell us how men think and feel. A two-author piece might have been more enlightening.
11
I wish people would stop using the phrase "sex slave" for what is actually a "rape slave." The woman being raped is not having sexual pleasure--the word "sex" adopts the perpetrator's viewpoint--a viewpoint the victim doesn't share.
7
Some years ago I read an article about a group of fraternity boys discussing date rape, one of whom said “Why risk going to jail when you just have to tell them you love them?” Opens up a whole new dimension to this conversation .
8
The problems here are male entitlement and these boys' incredible lack of empathy. It's a truly repulsive cultural configuration.
7
Right! Men are untrustworthy, silent or vocal sexual predators. If this head pushing, leg spreading, forcible entry is so well known, why do women ever go near any man? It is just not worth the risk. This article feeds right into the Jordan Peterson, et al narrative that males who express any other than 100% effeminate behavior are preordained guilty as sin grizzly bears.
12
In all of these debates, the thing that puzzles me most is the depiction of men as feeling "entitled". I have met very few of these men. From our teen years on, all the boys and men I knew wanted sex, longed for it, had crushes which included sexual desire, were often desperate for their feelings to be reciprocated, but never felt entitled. We saw women as having this huge secret that they could bestow at their whim, and we were rarely the chosen ones. Weirdly, it was the guys who acted the most entitled who did get chosen. (We usually didn't know these guys too well because they had no use for us polite wimps.) Most of us are now married and settled down, but I am sure the current generation of young men includes millions more like us: nervous, hopeful, and anything but entitled.
In America, women have been taught, and have internalized, ideas of manhood that line up well with what is now called "toxic masculinity". The idea that women have no agency in the #metoo wars is itself demeaning. It is critical that women start teaching their daughters to reject men who act entitled. The next generation of women might find themselves having far less harrowing experiences to report. At least we can hope.
12
The author quotes data from research at Confi, in which 1,200 college students and recent graduates are surveyed.
What would they “expect to happen next” if they went home with someone whom they’d met and danced with at a party?
55% of men consider intercourse unlikely.
70% of women consider intercourse unlikely.
Do women have to be convinced to have sex?
75% of men disagree
90% of women disagree
On average both men and women agree intercourse is unlikely to occur, and both men and women agree that women don't have to be convinced to have sex. Yes, there is a slight difference in the degree of agreement, as anyone who has met a man or a woman might reasonably expect. However, if the author's (in my opinion, unjustified) claim is correct, that these slight differences in the degree - not in direction - of expectations are "a setup for assault, (and) also for men’s subsequent denials of responsibility and, quite possibly, claims of false accusation" then we'll just have to accept there is no solution and keep men and women separate.
5
The issue unfortunately stems from the very word "consent." Consent means to give another permission to do something to us on our behalf. It is simply the wrong word. Sex is not done TO us it is something we do WITH one another.
The standard should not be did we give permission but rather were we BOTH acting out of mutuality (ie was their a mutual WITH). The absence of mutuality is the indication of a problem and consent even if freely given cannot solve that problem (within BDSM communities that might be different).
The insistence that consent be the standard is an insistence that sex equals assault.
This PC nonsense needs to be stopped.
8
@Michael Lissack
PC nonsense? I'm pretty sure one reason these discussion draw on the word "consent" comes from the law. When courts are trying to decide a crime, they have little concern for whether or not two people were sharing a truly mutual experience. They want to know if one of the partners permitted it (consent) versus was coerced into it by the other.
Just about any sexually active adult knows that not incidents of sex are desired equally by both partners, or performed mutually. "Consent," however, means those acts are done without coercion––the problem at the root of these discussions. It's not PC to make mere consent the threshold.
1
“Young men still too often learn to prioritize their pleasure over women’s feelings...”
We don’t -learn- to prioritize those feelings, they are the result of millions of years of evolution calling us to procreate. What is difficult to learn, much as we must try to, is to prioritize the partner’s feelings and wants in that moment when hormones are screaming at us to get it done. Getting the higher brain to override the lower brain takes work.
10
Your daughters instinctively know that having sex when they don't really, really want to is damaging to their psyche and also to their body. The body remembers, and the pain, anger and humiliation of a coerced sexual encounter remains in the woman's body long after the man has gone. Women are not like men: the biology is very different and so are the emotions. This essentialist statement may not be politically correct, but it is still true.
8
Adolescents and it seems adult college students are remarkably innocent sexually in the US. There is a puritan hangover combined with very strange religious sects and a society which at best is uncomfortable with the ideas of pleasure And a young generation way involved in screen realities. As in so many other ways the US is in need of a house cleaning and some decisions to become a society that is liveable, not just a place to make money and status. Of course education and health care play into this. Nobody is in charge of the development of kids in discussion and access birth control for both genders starting at puberty, in discussions of sexuality, in access to abortion, in freedom from ultra religions unconstitutional but rampant indoctrination, in the idea that marriage and mating are part of the power grab that life is viewed within. Its a free-for-all mess that is reflected in these campus rape situations. We very much need a reset in the USA, right starting now.
4
I wonder what role women played in the actions of these article. If you watch enough nature shows you see male primates, of which humans are one, rarely worry about consent. They use violence for sex. Perhaps human males are more remarkable then often allowed.
4
You must have been watching different nature shows than I have. In most species the female is the one who chooses and the male has to jump through a lot of hoops before he gets to mate. Some of those hoops include fighting with other males in order to get the right to mate with the female. Once those hurdles have been cleared, the females in those species are physically ready to mate to continue their species. Often the female has left hormonal clues that she is ready. How you perceived violence in those normal actions between males and females of other species puzzles me. Many human males do not seem to understand that anything is required beyond their desire to have sex; it seems some of the animals have a better grasp of the situation. Bottom line, it has nothing to do with how humans in the year 2019 interact. Both people should be engaging in the actions that lead up to any kind of sex and during any sex. Not jumping into bed with someone we just met could also improve chances of good communication.
2
That a man who openly admitted to sexually assaulting women was elected president shows the relative (un)importance of women's rights in American society. It's no surprise 63% of white men voted for him. It's discouraging that 53% of white women did as well.
For all the good the women's movement did, it failed to engage working class women. It was essentially led by and for white elitists.
Progressive Democrats are already rejecting Amy Klobuchar because she mistreats her staff. Yet Trump got a pass for his mysogy.
America has a lot of work to do. It's an uphill battle.
3
Most of the men I've been with are exceptionally nice. We have long conversations about ethics, they are considerate of the little things, thoughtful and sensitive and frequently ask for my opinion. Most of the men I've been with have also, gotten drunk and pestered for sex until I gave in, tried to push my head down, had sex with me when we had been partying too hard and occasionally 'got too into it to stop'.
Did they do it often? No. Are there other great things about them? Yes. I think people in their 20s/30s accept this behavior because to not accept it is pretty daunting. I had a recent conversation with a friend where she said, if she truly acknowledges how bad this situation is, she fears she won't be able to date.
I have noticed that guys that grew up without internet pornography, do tend to treat me better, but I burned out on dating years ago. It's funny, I still talk to the guys I've been with.
We're friends.
161
@Coles Lee
I have young ladies (20-30, single) in my family in college and at work. I heard their voices as read and re-read your electrifying, horrifying letter. I have yet to read a letter in NYT that made me cry. This one did.
We have boys too of various ages in the family, I will ask them to read your letter. I would have failed entirely if one of them were ever a subject in a letter such as yours - or worse.
Thank you for your heart breaking honesty. I wish you all possible good things that do not force you to accept what is a horrifyingly common, and ugly situation.
I could not thank you enough for helping me have a responsible conversation with people I love.
63
@Kalidan This is, as you say, a sad and honest letter. That I too will make sure both the young men and women in my family read.
19
@Coles Lee Yes, exactly this. I thought I could accept dating men as these walking contradictions without acknowledging how bad this situation really is. Until one of the men "got too into it to stop" and for him that meant something sadistic with a lot of strangling. I guess I'm glad I survived. But now I don't trust anyone. I haven't slept well in six years.
52
Thank you so much for this article. As a scientist, I've been waiting for some reports from the social science literature that would address the concept of the "good guy." A lot of people, especially guys, seem to think sexual harassment and rape are uncommon and perpetrated by a small minority of men, but talk to a group of women alone, and pretty much everyone has been harassed and many have been raped. If the perpetrators are a small minority of men, they sure have been busy!
And then there’s the question of the definition of “good guy.” Is that the person who doesn’t rape? Who intervenes in a gang rape? Who calls the police on a gang rape? Who doesn’t pressure his partner to do things she doesn’t want to do? Who objects when women are demeaned in “locker room” talk? The number will be different for each of these, but to my mind, they are all part of being a good guy. That said, I also appreciate women’s messages can be genuinely confusing to guys, as conversations with my 60-something brother reveal. I wish there were something women could wear to signal “I’m not interested in sex” so we could be congenial or even flirty without guys getting sexually aggressive.
Surprisingly, I saw some good advice on this in a men’s magazine. A reader asked, what does it mean when a woman dresses in a sexy way? Is it a come-on? The answer was, maybe, but she may just enjoy that look, so don’t assume it’s for you.
7
What counts as consent?
The "elasticity" the author observes is the difference between a minimal and maximal conception of consent.
The author wants men (but not women?) to engage in a clean, lawyerly process to achieve a maximal level of consent for sex.
Yet people are often confused, ambiguous, insecure, reticent in sexual situations. Sex is just not the place for a maximal standard. Recognizing this basic fact about sex, we should enforce instead a minimal standard of consent.
5
To the gentleman who said he stopped hugging his granddaughter because she started looking uncomfortable with receiving hugs, bravo for respecting her boundaries.
I’m a retired RN. I would also suggest you, your wife, or an adult she trusts have a chat with her. It is possible she has experienced someone crossing or attempting to cross her boundaries, or she may be uncomfortable with the changes puberty brings. The reasons are as varied as the girl, but I would try to find out if there is an underlying reason for her shying away from you.
11
First Dworkin, now this?
Fine, can you at least run a column—just once—about at least one way women mistreat men or contribute to the problem?
Or are they all perfect, innocent and vulnerable all the time?
19
One of the things that needs to stop is the idea that discussing sex ahead of time ruins the romance. Before you start kissing, ask. Before you go beyond that, ask. Discuss.
I've never understood why people made fun of the idea of asking before you do something and claimed the very asking would be unsexy. It's not.
It does sound like before you do something with a man, like invite him in, it's a good idea to tell them nothing sexual is happening without talking about it first. Those who are good people won't mind; and those whose impulses are over-riding their morals get a chance to rein in those impulses.
10
Or leave.
1
The ridiculous notion that only one side is to blame for our problems is not acceptable.
Wake me up when you have an even handed solution.
14
The issue is that this is not an even handed problem. Males have the physical strength. In society access to power and wealth go through men. The ability for a woman to have children and a family relies on male acceptance. No doubt there can be mixed signals and miscommunication but that is all the more reason to establish sound methods of discussing and arriving at consent or no consent.
4
Here's a bit of counsel. Ladies/women etc...don't go up to men's hotel suites for interviews unless you're ready for romance, etc. There are plenty of safe, private/public spaces that are not men's hotel rooms. Don't dress like you're going for the blonde-eye-candy-Fox-"news"- talker job interview dressed in a short skirt and with ample cleavage.
Take responsibility for yourself. Just as a reminder: 53% of white women voters pulled the lever for The Donald. You know..."the grabby guy". I guess there's a bit of "consent" in that vote.
9
@Economy Biscuits The second half of your advice seems to be missing - that for men who decide to enter the body of a person who has not consented.
4
The thing that troubles me about Orenstein's essay is that I can't think of very many other domains in our culture where "responsible adults" hold themselves to this standard. Businesses try to convince you to buy things without caring about your real feelings or needs; politicians try to get your vote; philanthropies try to get your donation; pundits like Orenstein try to get you to buy their newest book. It's a culture of "come on, you'll really like it" from top to bottom -- and willful blindness to what any stranger wants, if something can be gotten from them. To me, the underlying premise that "sex is different" -- and that girls and boys are so different, and the former are dainty princesses who need to be protected from male ogres -- is the double lie that makes Orenstein's work so regressive and anti-feminist.
8
The last thing that makes a woman want to get randy with a man is entitlement.
So, stop! Stop insisting and stop acceding. Speak instead of what you feel and think first.
Boys and girls should have extensive sex education fairly early such as 7th grade and learn how to cope with their feelings and pressures.
Men/ boys should respect women's full consent or refusal. Of course. Otherwise you are clearly an ugly pig. However, in my experience, some women like to send mixed signals for some reason, like attention or control of a situation. Some women like to tease and create temptation with how they dress and act. Some women dress provocatively and flirt, for what reason exactly? We all see that all the time and we all know that. I see that almost daily at work or in social situations. There are many supporters of #MeToo, but there are also many fans and imitators of the Kardashian school of attention seeking. Maybe modesty and not sending the wrong signals should also be taught if we are to change the culture in a meaningful and fair way.
2
Here’s the problem: SEX has been overvalued by American culture, primarily through advertising. Every day, in hundreds of ways, the message is beamed into our heads: SEX IS LIFE, if you’re not getting it, you’re walking dead, and here’s a product, movie, TV show, magazine, pop song, food, book, clothes, car, game, can get it for you. Sex sells everything. Kids watch the most lurid and sexually explicit material on everything from the Super Bowl halftime show to their school musical. We exploded in the late 60s from the sexual repression of the past 1500 years to Studio 54, poll dancing, sexts, computer porn, Cosmo, and the music video. Overnight, sex went from “evil” - a sin (which was wrong but closer to the truth) to the only thing worth living for.
Young boys often lack any meaningful guidance from male role models- older men have forgotten how to initiate the boys who fumble in the dark. Meanwhile, the complexities and difficulties in sex are hidden and glossed over by pop culture, and we get sexually maladapted young men.
Many young people are introduced to sex through pornography. The twisted behavior on display there acts like poison, distorting our notions of sex, and leading us to think sex is about gratification of our sexual desires, rather than the demands of sharing with a human being. People are dehumanized into objects for satisfaction. It’s not just porn, regular movies do this, too.
We have not begun to deal with the real problem.
8
Females need to "smarten-up" and realize that you can't throw sex signals around and then play all innocent when the animals catch that scent.
10
"Young men still too often learn to prioritize their pleasure over women’s feelings, to interpret a partner’s behavior through the lens of their own wishes."
And? Is Ms. Orenstein shocked to just now be learning that this is what young, immature people do? For god's sake, are we going to beat up on boys for not bypassing the learning process and not coming out of the womb with the maturity and wisdom to always put other people's feelings first? Are we going to pretend that young females aren't just as guilty of the same self-absorption and wishful thinking and lack of concern for their partner's feelings? Are we going to equate selfish, immature relationships with rape?
Gee, I can hardly wait for the book.
9
Do woman have any responsibility for being clear? How about if you are going back to a guy's apartment after drinking and flirting and you just say something like,"I'd like to spend more time with you, but am not interested in sex." How about if there is kissing, etc., but the woman doesn't want to go further, she says so. Ultimately, if the guy persists, how about just saying "no" and getting up and leaving?
In any of these situations, if the man doesn't immediately stop, he ought to go to jail. If the woman is equivocal in what she says or does in these situations, the fault is mutual and "rape" is way too strong a word.
9
The onus should not be on the male to ask the question? The female should make it clear from the outset that there will not be any sex. Once you go down the road of petting and shedding clothes, the genie is out of the bottle and it's very hard to stop the animal impulses in all of us. We are, after all, animals, and for some men and women it is not possible to withdraw at that point.
In conclusion, my advice to both men and women is to keep your clothes on, your hands to yourself and then have a sober talk about when you will have sex. It's very simple really.
7
After 70 years on this planet one thing is clear, women are capable of clearly and unequivocally saying yes or no. Many times, however, they chose not to do so. They prefer to express themselves ambiguously, and then blame men for not understanding their “hidden messages.”
I’ve been with women who became insulted when you don’t continue to pursue them with great ardor - after all, they wanted to have sex, but they didn’t want to appear “slutty.” One claimed I must be gay when I immediately accepted her less than enthusiastic response to my overture to engage in sex.
Other women I’ve been with enthusiastically wanted to have sex in the apartment where I was staying (overlooking Central Park), until they discovered I was a guest of the owner, and not filthy rich.
Anyone who disagrees with me just recall taking your girlfriend at her word when you asked her any question and she responded “I don’t care.” Unless she was rare as a unicorn, what she meant was “I care very much - you just have to guess the right answer.”
11
So if a woman experiences an onrush of sex hormones (don't tell me they don't), and engages in an act she later regrets, that's really the fault of the man she came on to because he didn't fully establish her real consent. And if a man gives in to his natural drive, and fails to ascertain her real consent, that's his fault too.
I guess there need be only one responsible party in this duet. And it's not the female half.
8
For once, I would like to read an article about women as aggressors. I once worked on an Air Force base for 15 months as a civilian. I was 21. Ratio: roughly 2,000 men vs 800 women, and not ONCE was I harassed or forced to have sex against my will. And I admit that it was a rush to walk into the cafeteria full of men, me wearing a tight t-shirt and getting all the attention. Does being a tease or playing hard to get still exist?
6
I am so tired of women who insist on infantilizing other women under the guise of chastising the monsters we otherwise call men.
If a woman says “no”, then that’s it. STOP! “No” means “no”. But the author is not satisfied with that.
She asks, rhetorically, “Did they discuss, with an enthusiastic partner, which erotic acts to indulge in together? Or were they satisfied that whatever they initiated was fine as long as she didn’t say no?” PLEASE!
If the woman doesn’t want to kiss the man, or anything else, just say it. Any man who persists after the woman says no is committing an assault. But does my son have to interrogate his date each step of the way, even as the woman seems to be gladly participating. “Excuse me Emily. You seem to be enjoying anal sex, but I want to make doubly sure that you’re ok with it. You see, a lot of women pretend that they like something but they really don’t like it that much but don’t say anything.There are also women who change their mind during the act but are reluctant to speak up. Are you certain that you don’t fall into either of those categories? Perhaps you’d like to stop for a moment and call your parents or your best friend and seek their advice?”
May I suggest a simpler approach that treats both men and women as equal partners in sexual activity? If either partner is doing something that the other doesn’t want to do, then the offended partner must immediately tell the offending partner to stop- and he or she must immediately stop.
13
Agree 100 percent.
The one thing I would add is how many men are taught to view feeling sexual dominance as necessary to sexual gratification. Even some of “the good ones.”
3
Some good points somewhat tainted by unfair generalizations and conclusions. One, not mentioned by other readers, is that Kavanaugh is guilty. Take a look at all of Ms. Ford's testimony. She stated that despite her supposed fear of flying, she flew from California to French Polynesia (4200 miles), because it was easier for her to go in that direction.
And the return trip in the opposite direction? Her testimony about so many other areas post high school had contradictions as well. Her memory of the supposed abuse had no corroboration. Even her best friend at the time, along with all other named party attendees, didn't remember there even being such a party.
Ms. Ford said her friend had mental issues, and added she could explain the others lack of memory as well. Her entire testimony is filled with contradictions, excuses, obfuscations and the like.
The fact the column's author believes Ms. Ford unequivocally is one more example, among many, of that author's ingrained biases, and prejudices against men. Still she manages to make some good points. But they have to be filtered out.
Hopefully, I've been fair and accurate in my critique of the column without unfairly generalzing about it.
7
The elephant in the room for this discussion is:
Men of little means get jail for rape.
Men of extravagant means get little or nothing for rape.
Yes, there is a question of what is or is not consent. This problem is of less import until we get the most productive child rapists and serial rapes, no matter their financial status, held in confinement.
Think of current events. There is the elephant in the room. A rich man making a business of selling under-age girls, and the secretary of labor gives him evenings in jail. Well, at least, kinda.
4
What has feminism turned into? Women are helpless beings exploited by men? Women can't learn how to say no and mean it? It's only men who need to change and then everything will be great?
I guess in the current world you earn your stripes by claiming victimhood. In my experience, that's not a particularly empowering way to live.
13
Men may not know what consent is, but women appear to be awfully ambivalent about what they want/don't want. If they don't want something, they need to say "NO" loud and clear, not whine and "sorta" acquiesce and then later say they were cohered.
Women want to be able to be as actively sexually as men - to have casual sex like men. But they appear to not really be able to navigate this terribly well - they are ambivalent.
I don't quite understand where this comes from, but it appears that today's "feminist" woman is not particularly strong. Heck, if we're to believe ads on TV and articles in the health section of the NYTimes, they are even reluctant to tell their doctors if they are experiencing severe menstrual pain or pain with sex. What on earth have they become? Frightened little Victorian virginal blossoms? Who on earth experiences constant, severe pain and doesn't go see a doctor, regardless of where that pain is?
Freedom comes with responsibility. Both men and women need to stop believing the other is a mind reader. They both need to be very clear about what is acceptable and what is not. And a girl who has been flirting heavily with a boy all evening and then goes home with him, should certainly not be surprised that he assumes he's going to have sex with her that evening. Young women appear to be woefully naive today, regardless of their worldly talk and behavior.
11
Lot of writing here about the nature of men as a gender. From a woman. Were the genders reversed, the author would be outraged.
11
In reading these comments, what troubles me is I haven’t seen comments from men that show any appetite for exploring these issues. I don’t believe all men are rapists. I do believe that many of them could benefit from honest conversation and listening to women. Womens’ voices continue to be ridiculed. Shame on our society.
8
The reason you haven’t is that our opinions on this issue are just ignored or called sexist. Especially if we are white.
3
Another all/most men are rapists, genetically predisposed to be rapists, are culturally required to be rapists and will become rapists story. If this is really true and none of my 40 or so years of post-not pubescent experience is true, women/mothers should just castrate their born males. Yes, most men I know have seen and described insensitive jerks and inappropriate behavior. Those men were not sought or accepted as friends. Rape was not accepted as part of male bonding. But as the writers of these articles imply/state my being a male makes it impossible for me to judge acceptable behavior and any clarity I have is just a moment between planning my next rape. These article have heightened my awareness of the extreme feelings and experiences some women have related to their male interactions. I feel sad for these women as it is horrible, but in no way feel responsible or believe this is common among men.
8
"I guess I'll let you" sounds like consent to me. "No" sounds like no.
13
It would be wise for Ms. Orenstein to consider writing her book (or this column) in collaboration with a man.
Looking at the issue, from an exclusively male or female perspective, may lead to an unbalanced point of view.
6
Non-consent is a lot different than regrettable sex. This article clearly parades regrettable-sex victims, not the former.
9
Much like race and gender, consent is a mental construct whose deconstruction is both imminent and foregone.
2
This article (and 1000 others like it) put the focus on men. But it takes two hands to clap. As an employer, I’ve regularly had female employees flirt with me and dance across that invisible line... sometimes explicitly. On one occasion during an interview, a woman ran her suggestively hand up my thigh. As a boyfriend, I’ve had more than one girlfriend share private pics of me with her friends... without my consent. As a lover, I’ve found that women can be just as demanding in bed as men – If they really want something, they’re going to get it... regardless of my mood. // I am in no way excusing the bad behavior of some men, but real solutions need to involve examining the roles of BOTH genders. The reality is A LOT more nuanced and complicated than any article I’ve read.
6
What this is really about is the group-think overlay: Guys talk about scoring, girls hero-worship and those are just a few of the archetypical memes are that constantly confuse us about who we are. The gift of sex is that at the base level of raw passion we can't fake it. The problem is that especially in our society there is zero recognition about that and as a result it is very very difficult to square the circle, to resolve the difference between our inner passion and the echoes of societal images about that. My response was to become really shy about the whole thing. You know the real opposite of rape is not consent; its fear of engaging at all. That’s the cage (Hello Walt Whitman!) that we need to avoid if we want to really address this problem. In the absence of a culture that is accommodating to passion rather than just provocative, "crossing the line" becomes objectified into being legalistic on the one hand or gang-think on the other. Both are completely alien to the real basis sexual passion. Our culture needs a lot more seductive humor and good will to lubricate the whole situation and enrich our lives. That is the only way we will elevate the value of genuine passion over objectification. False narratives about masculinity and #metoo legalisms both miss the point. I'm still mourning over Al Franken.
2
The author's conclusion that women's assumptions are more credible is not only silly, but self-serving. Women... as do men... see their actions and interpretations in a self-serving light. Often they will even "change" their "view" in the light of "post coital" events. I give you Emma Sulkowicz, the young "lady" who at Columbia dragged a mattress around to advertise her "rape". The facts turned out that she was a willing participant, wanted for weeks to "re-engage". But when the "male" decided he was not interested she suddenly "changed her mind about events", decided to vent her anger by dragging a mattress around the campus of Columbia, and adopted a "rape narrative". In another instance of faulty women assessments of the "act", I give you that young lovely at the University of Virginia who claimed to be a victim of a "rape room" at a fraternity party. It made for a great article in Rolling Stone until it turned out she was lying. There was no "rape room" and not even a party. I could go on..... All too often women, the FACTS clearly demonstrate , tend to view "acts and circumstance" through the lens of self interest. That is a truism and uncomfortable truth with which all men must contend.
1
In America we have the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts.
In England, they are called the Boy Scouts and the Girl Guides.
And that is the way life should really be - the boy scouts and the girl guides.
Prologue to my earlier post:
In western thought - Eve was created from Adams ribs - so male is divine and female is the derivative.
Eastern thought is opposite - the female is the divine, source of all power, the mother nature and exists entirely on its own. The Male is the derivative. Female is XX - exists on its own. Male is XY - cannot exist without the female.
That is also what we see in human behavior. As men - all we want in life is actually women. As boys we are attached to our mother and We love our sisters, we will do anything to make them happy. As we grow up, we are constantly making and remaking ourselves so that we can be worthy of women in our lives - better jobs, cars, houses etc.
The female have tremendous power over the male. Always. Its female that shapes the male - in very fundamental ways. The “power differential” - such as it exists - is actually on the female side.
Somewhere somehow we have lost this basic truth and meandering in the self-inflicted problem ever since. Hopefully sociologists will someday figure out how this happened.
3
To those of you saying that women shoudl just say yes or no clearly and be prepared to leave; you do not understand that what underlies a lot of female behaviour is the fear of being a victim of physical violence. Not one woman alive has not felt this. 'Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them'.
3
@S North
Men are overwhelmingly the victims of physical violence - and yet somehow most don't live their lives in fear...what does that say about your assertion?
2
These days if a man wrote an article, or a book, describing what women think about sex, especially sexual permission, he would be attacked for presuming to know and likely called sexist and paternalistic---or whatever the in words are these days. Apparently this criticism doesn't go both ways.
4
I love when women define how a man feels. Sometime, the author might want to ask a few of us what it looks and feels like on the male side.....nah, they seem to think "they" already know about "all you men". So glad i'm an individual and not the author's uninformed stereotype. All "you women"...try it on and see how you like it.
5
What is never discussed is the effect testosterone has on the male brain. It can be overpowering
1
Women need to indicate that they don't want to be touched, but men need to be receptive to the message. Women shouldn't have to scream in the middle of party, "Keep your hands off me!"
Requiring women to engage in socially awkward, embarrassing behavior in order to be heard is a form of coercion.
A man who will abuse such social constraints cannot be allowed to claim ignorance.
3
Some men, not men in general.
2
Maybe we should return to the days when men and women had an actual relationship before they had sex. Maybe we should return to sex being the ultimate expression of the love a man and woman have for each other and not an indoor sport used to release mutual sexual tensions.
5
I don’t think using a pic of three women from “the Kavanaugh hearings” was a good idea in this article, considering it was all a big lie and a horrific smear campaign.
4
Missing: Reproduction is the savage, all-powerful driver. We are hardwired for it. Heterosexual intercourse is what Nature demands and it is intellectually dishonest (not to mention fatuous) to ignore it.
Oh, and not just by the way, female Homo sapiens have another hardwired urge: mate with as many males as possible.
3
Some men are bad people. Some women are bad people.
It’s getting very tiring to hear this non-stop assault on men.
6
The Left brought us the sexual revolution diminishing sex to an act of animalistic gratification, not a sanctification of marriage or even part of the intimacy of human relationships.
This is what it has wrought.
3
Ladies, if you are there, and no one physically prevents you from leaving, you have consented. Grow up and recognize your agency.
6
Shame is a powerful weapon.
1
Is it possible that the same immaturity and poor judgment that makes young men lousy drivers and often poor students and that leads us to restrict their access to drugs and tobacco also suggests that they are having sex at far too young an age?
2
I wish we did a better job of preparing kids for the emotional ambiguity and confusion that often accompanies early forays into intimacy. "I-want-it-but-I'm-not-sure-this-is-a-good-idea" is a fraught state from which to utter either a clear, unambiguous "No" or an enthusiastic "Yes."
Too often, as sexually experienced adults, we forget what those early moments were like. Girls, especially, are weighed down with the more catastrophic consequences, both socially and biologically, of saying "Yes." Too often, though, we fail to instill in young women the understanding of their right to refuse even in the face of their own desires, much less of their partner's.
1
The continual painting with a broad brush, stereotyping, seems to come with every type of ‘splaining from the left.
Men do this, white people do this, Republicans do this...
Well, most men do not do this, most white people are not racist and most Republicans are nice people.
This stereotyping wouldn’t be tolerated if someone were to write something derogatory about women that had some truth, but, we’re applied, generally, to all women.
It’s very irresponsible and inflammatory to think like the opinion writer does.
4
Give me a break. If you want to talk about sexism, then let’s question why this issue is ALWAYS framed as men getting consent from women. What about women getting consent from men? The reason we don’t ask that question is we just assume the answer is always yes for men. That is sexism pure and simple.
And this view is not just sexist towards men. It takes away agency from women. It assumes women are hapless damsels that we need to protect.
6
@Jon F Amen, amen, amen. There still remains in the #MeToo momentum a lack of personal responsibility and wanting to be taken care of.
4
"In the heat of the moment" men can quite easily overrule any ambiguous response from a woman and treat it as a "yes". They want what they want and it is most convenient in the moment to assume a yes unless she is yelling "No!" at the top of her lungs, and sometimes even then it is just viewed as a challenge for them to try something different.
Until men view women as truly equal they will not bother to try to understand, they will certainly not bother to ask. They will only stop when forced to stop and then plead ignorance after the fact. That they weren't "mind readers" after all because that excuse has proven very acceptable in our society.
Women need to feel okay about enthusiastically agreeing to sex and men need to learn to slow down and ask if that enthusiasm isn't present.
2
In these days of casual sex, it surprising how low the percentages are of men and women who might expect vaginal sex after linking up at a party. That's encouraging. At least the bright side is that it's a majority who don't expect it. So there's a reason to believe that most know the 'rules' and those whose hormones appear to take over are the ones who should be taught that their behavior needs adjusting.
1
How completely unsurprising that sexual activity that led to an unhappy conclusion would be the responsibility of the men only.
During any given night in a co-ed dormitory they are many occasions of sex of various types that occur. During a few, inevitably, the woman will have last second doubts, but will be too late to reasonably expect the man to stop.
If these sexual assaults are really that traumatic for the woman, you might think that women would be demanding a return to single sex dorms with single sex bathrooms. Even some regulations about a man visiting the woman's room and having to leave the door ajar.
Was it advisable to switch over to co-ed dorms on campus, in which it appears that about three quarters of these sexual assaults occur, really such a great idea? Did Brokaw's greatest generation exhibit another element of that greatness when it decided that co-ed dorms, many with co-ed shower rooms, would be the occasion of many sexual acts that did not go well for either sex?
I' sure the move to co-ed dorms was supposed to benefit the women, not the men, but I really can't think of what that benefit might be that was worth all these sexual assaults.
1
What exactly is consent in an intimate relationship? Men and women have varied opinions as to this question so the chasm will only grow short of an affidavit of sexual consent carried by all males during sex.
2
Girls are good and need protecting, boys are bad and need to be restrained and retrained, you know, like Malcolm McDowell in A Clockwork Orange. This is isn't feminism. This is a neo-Victorian mentality.
6
I can empathize with being dominated sexually by predatory peers, I lost my virginity to a very aggressive college schoolmate against my will and to the detriment of my academic and personal life. Because that person was a she and I a he, I could neither comfortably say no at it happened, nor view the incident as wrong in hindsight for many years. For men aggressive self indulgent women are supposed to be a positive fantasy. Well it was not good sex, it was not invited, it was not loving or even fun. It was ruinous, it was a chaotic rape by a sexually advanced young woman, of a virgin who was afraid and shocked as it took place and harmed for years afterward. It was a terrible way to become an adult.
I am really sick of the statistically unsupportable, implied notion that such an overwhelming number of sex predators are men, that the number that are women are not worthy of mention. In fact very attractive women believe they can have any man they want when they want if they want. Sexually aggressive women use that talent to ends that have nothing to do with love or positive emotional interaction. That they are rarely challenged on this it's a well understood norm, while women know which girls they don't leave alone with their men. In fact when young men have these encounters it is both rarely reported because norms of manhood say can't, and as damaging as any other unwanted sex.
7
What I told my sons: "look, its like in a pastry shop: you don't touch, you don't steal, you just ask!".
2
“I don’t want to, but I guess I’ll let you” is nowhere near enough assertiveness. It literally is two different messages. To expect someone to parse those meanings while having sex is unrealistic and unfair. To think that someone might be accused of rape after being told that is crazy.
5
Sex is the strongest drive there is, in the human species, and without it, the species would of died out tens of thousands of years ago. Generally speaking, the male animal is larger than the female, and has always had its way with them, because of that. Biology is destiny, but a modern society needs to focus on both education, and punishment, to prevent serial rapists, who often will murder their victim, as that is the nature of the human animal, Homo Sapiens, too. The fact that more than half of the world's population lives under patriarchy, because religion is a part of the primitive order, means that it won't be any time soon, that males will evolve beyond their basic, innate, DNA.
2
Men rape because they can. And I’m not talking about all men. I’m talking specifically about predators who prey on vulnerable children and adults because they know they can perpetrate their crimes with impunity. The #metoo movement is finally turning the tables on these malevolent men. And we as a society must hold them fully accountable. Zero-tolerance is the only way to stop sexual violence.
3
How do we get this article into the curriculum of every school in the world from about the sixth grade on?
2
There is much truth in what the Ms. Orenstein writes, but somehow, the fact that hormones and sex drive are also in play needs also to be recognized.
Man would be extinct without hormones and sex drive. We need to help people learn to manage their sexual behavior. But treating sexual behavior as strictly optional and completely voluntary has not worked.
1
It's time for women to move on from men! Women can be satisfied in many other ways! And it's a known fact that men are hairier, and very few wash their hands after going to the bathroom!!!
4
For me this issue was very simple. If the girl didn't want to engage in canoodling, then neither did I. If she wouldn't enjoy hooking up, then neither would I. I would never force myself on someone. Period.
3
Aren't mixed signals a prerogative of the girl the boy has to navigate subject to change at any time
1
When a man meets a woman, or, to start on a balanced basis, when a woman meets a man; if they like each other, sooner or later they will consider sex.
Now, how they approach the issue is highly dependent on culture, education and how much alcool was absorbed.
In my country, France, where relations between females and males are relaxed and often flirty (no offense being felt by anybody), the first approach is NEVER a classical business deal. Do you want to make love? Which position? Please sign this release of responsibility and let's do it as soon as my lawyers have talked to yours.... No, not in France!
What is expected is SEDUCTION. It goes both ways. It involves looks and skills. One of the basic skills is not to look overtly interested.
This makes it hard for an average Joe, not a bully or a rapist, to know when and where to stop.
5
We live in a society that, on the face of it, decries sexism and promotes gender equality.
Yet this is the same society where anyone with access to the internet can watch the most misogynistic porn - things our ancestors in less "egalitarian" times would be horrified by. Where people have access to technology that allows them to spew hateful bile at famous women in anonymity. Where our media relentlessly portray women simply as objects to be desired and conquests to be achieved.
And then we wonder why young men are messed up in their attitudes to women. It's because we have created a culture that sets them up to fail.
3
I am not positive that education and yet more education is the solution to this. The young men will accept the education in the cold light of day when they are being educated, but that's all in the nice logical part of your brain that does your conscious thinking. When a man is aroused, there are powerful unconscious parts of the brain pushing him in ways that the conscious, thinking part has trouble coping with.
What I'm trying to say is that the logic gaps that the researcher finds are not the result of men playing mental games while considering their actions in the heat of the moment. Those logical games are how these young men are trying to tell themselves after the fact that they're not monsters. But they are monsters; we all are. Most of our brains evolved long before the pre-frontal cortex allowed us to play logical games and make moral choices. The most powerful impulses we have after self-preservation are procreation.
Women are the same, but tend to lose their self-control much later. I've had perfectly reasonable intelligent young women tell me in the heat of passion that they don't want to wait for me to put on the contraceptive device. After the fact, would they make up a story for themselves explaining why they would say something so stupid? Sure, but really it was just their primitive brain taking over.
All I'm saying is that relying on people to think straight during moments of passion is foolish. Underneath, we're all monsters.
4
This article is offensive to both men and women.
"They"? - The vast majority of men are not rapists.
Women are conscious, intelligent beings who are more than able of capable of expressing their desires and leaving a questionable encounter on their own volition. The author suggests otherwise. Women have the responsibility to do one or both of those things before we can call something "rape."
7
As a male of the species, I admit that I have not always done the right thing and I am sorry.
Looking back, I remember being raised by a father who always had pornographic magazines in his "man cave" and I would sneak in and look at the pictures because I thought it was "manly". This is not offered as an excuse, but, as one possible explaination for a very serious problem.
I do not know the solutions to this very important problem, but, I do know that it causes devastating pain and sorrow in our world.
3
So how come Donald Trump continues to be so socially successful? He follows social rules selectively, treats women poorly, yet half the country thinks he’s great. He has successfully passed on his genes, too. It challenges the idea that all women prefer men who follow the rules. Enough of them don’t to make being a rule-breaker a viable approach for any young man who wants social power and sex (that’s most of them). That’s a problem.
3
The problem with this column is that it starts with the issues facing college-age kids, and then veers into the monsters, as if they are one and the same. A couple of points:
1) There unquestionably are monsters among us, a/k/a sociopaths, and most sociopaths are male -- think Ted Bundy, Weinstein, et als. These are people whose personality disorder is marked by a complete lack of empathy. On the other hand, there are many women who have an analogous mental health issue -- borderline personality disorder -- a hallmark of which is (similar to sociopaths) pathological lying. Women with BPD may not rape or murder, but their lies are just as malignant when they make false accusations with the sole purpose of destroying a man's life.
2) The author notes that alcohol impairs the judgment of young men -- duh -- but that works two ways. Young women who drink likewise lack judgment and, more significantly, lack a good memory of what may have occurred when they were under the influence. Moreover, women are no different than men in becoming sexually aggressive when they have been drinking. Their actions certainly could be construed as indecent A&B -- but because we have a double-standard, women only are seen as victims, not as aggressors.
3) So when two people are amidst engaging in sexual activity, what is the protocol -- Is it, "No means no," or does a female have to say out loud, "Yes, I want to have sex," before anything can happen? I am now thoroughly confused.
2
Many years ago, I went out to dinner with some friends, including a male work collegue to whom I’d never given the slightest signal that I was interested in anything but friendship, and he had always behaved in kind. At the end of the evening we went our separate ways but he offered to walk with me back to my apartment, so I asked if he wanted to come up for a coffee before going home. He began almost immediately to press for sex and when I gently, but firmly explained I wasn’t interested, he became irate and yelled that if I didn’t want to have sex with him (not the expression he used of course) it was because “I didn’t know how.” (Huh?!) When he said those words, I remember willing myself not to laugh at what a pathetic insult(?)/argument to persuade me to give in, it was, and after a few more harsh words he left.
Although I never felt physically threatened by him, I think the memory of that encounter is why my favorite mantra from the #Metoo movement is - “NO, does not mean convince me!”
I wish I’d thought of it at the time.
4
In voting Trump there was an acceptance that not only is his loutish behavior acceptable but his admission of being a sex offender is not a disqualification for being president
The majority of white women ratified Trump, and his behavior when they voted for him
This is more than a male issue.
3
So, only 30% of women who went home with a man they'd just met at a party, had danced with, probably had some rudimentary conversation with...said that they expected that when they got in said man's car and went to his house that they expected to have sex?
I'm nearly 70-years old, grew up during the "swinging sixties", and I can tell you firsthand that when a woman goes home with a man she's only known for a few hours, she knows exactly why she's going to his home...to have sex.
Over the past fifty decades I've been in many situations where I could have gone home with a man or not. Sometimes I did, and I'm no worse the wear for it. I was attracted to the guy, I wanted to have sex with him and so I went with him. I didn't go with the guys I wasn't attracted to, and for some reason, didn't trust.
The majority of men are not monsters, and portraying them as such is creating such a divisive and antagonist split between the sexes. Monsters are men who put drugs into women's drinks so they can have sex with them when they're nearly unconscious. Monsters are men who attack women who are running, come up on them from behind, rape them and beat them senseless. Monsters are men who break into apartments and rape women in their 70s and 80s.
A man is not a monster who meets a woman at a bar or a party, they dance, they talk and he invites her back to his house and she accepts. Both of them are adults, they know exactly why they're going to a place where they can be alone.
517
@Claudia Thank you! My wife and I are now 70 and she wants me to tell you she couldn't agree more. She has always been a woman who knows what she wants, what she doesn't want, and will tell you directly if that's what it takes. And I love her for it.
I would like to add that, if a woman I had ever met of an evening agreed that we should go back to my place, been inviting, even encouraging... then had a change of heart when we got there... I would offer to see her home if that's what she wanted. I can't speak for all men of course, but I who wants an unenthusiastic partner?
116
@Claudia
And she can't change her mind? I have to think the reason fewer women assumed sex would follow from this scenario is that might imagine one or the other partner is *considering* having sex, or even desiring to have sex and thus agrees to go home with a man. And then, in the time between leaving the party and the initiation of sex, the woman (or man) begins to feel it wasn't such a good idea after all.
She starts to feel unsafe because he is now acting more arrogantly than at the party.
He sobers up and decides he doesn't want to cheat on his girlfriend. Etc.
If you can change your mind about that pair of shoes thought you wanted, you can change your mind about the more momentous prospect of sleeping with someone. And if the other person insists on sex anyway, that's a terrible thing (and a crime).
180
@Claudia I suspect most women expect some sort of sexual encounter, just not necessary sex. The dating scene can involve a lot of things that stop short of sex. I'd share your surprise if the stats showed that most women didn't expect ANY sexual activity.
I agree it's not the best idea to go home with a stranger if you're not wanting sex. But I do know people who do that and may make-out or do other things, but not have sex. So, it's not absolutely crazy.
67
What bothers me about the "affirmative consent" movement is that it seems to imply that a significant number of sexual assaults are the product of some kind of communication failure or simple misunderstanding on the man's fault. Whereas my experience has been that rapists know full well when a woman doesn't want to have sex. They just don't care.
362
The Confi survey hit the nail on the head asking participants what they would “expect to happen next” if they went home with someone whom they’d met and danced with at a party.
Only 30% of women considered vaginal intercourse as "likely".
Really? That I find hard to believe.
So the key question is what exact behaviors did these other 70% "expect" instead?
Going home with someone certainly does not give permission for non-consensual or coerced sex but it sure sends a strong signal that consensual sex is a clear option.
5
As a guy, I wish women were as honest as like to believe they are. Like most guys, I've gone to far and even been in a confrontation after that fact that might have landed me on the wrong side of the law. If you don't like something then yell stop. If the guy stops it's done. Don't running back to the dorm telling everyone you survived a rape. Rape is when the yelling doesn't stop the guy.
1
By default I side with women. That said, why not just let women make all the moves from now on. Either that or have two people sign a contract before they engage in sexual relations.
I have heard the "no please no" phrase echoed by several of my sexual acquaintances even as they were removing their own clothes (or in some cases, my clothes). More than a few of these women were more concerned with when they could expect to see me again, than whatever sex act that had transpired. Had any of them screamed "get AWAY from me" no sex act would have EVER transpired. A good many women are conflicted about sex even as they are engaging in it. Many more women seem to suffer the equivalent of "buyer's remorse" after the deed is done. This is at least partly due to American society's ridiculous puritanical hangups about sex, marriage, and the tangled mess that is sexual politics in the U.S.
4
Maybe I missed it, but I don't see a single comment from on man addressing the time he stood up for a woman, told a friend his talk was disrespectful, or otherwise held a friend responsible for inappropriate behavior.
Yet I've been witness to many a conversation between men talking about stuff that was, obviously non-consensual.
Yet there's lots and lots of comments talking about holding women accountable.
What a sickening double standard.
4
The problem looks like elasticity in the male's view of the situation, but that is not what's going on inside his head.
What creates the impression of a constantly variable estimation of consent is the natural process by which the male's conscious models track and evaluate his awareness of the reality in which he's immersed.
These processes naturally access the male's store of models by which he understands the meaning of his sensory gestalt as the event unfolds. Here's where the problem arises; there are two wildly different sets of models, definitions of correct behaviors that can contribute to the moment-by-moment interpretation of the nature of the interaction.
One of these behavioral models (strategies for mating that are built in, a hallmark of the species) is primitive, essentially rape. The other, modern, strategy stands alone as a model of behavior in which the female's wishes are significant.
The problem is determining which is in effect; even monitoring the switch from one strategy to the other difficult, due to processes inherent in both models that obscure the differences.
All of this is compounded by the fact that either strategy seems perfectly natural, because of course they both are. In the heat of the moment this truth creates a sense of entitlement in the male's reasoning gestalt, which may carry over to the female, depending on the history of her personal experience.
It's all natural. The primitive strategy is still rape.
--Tom and Kay
1
Before we married, my ex-wife had a series of relationships that revolved around sex. One involved a friend of mine who talked about her crudely. She was clearly a sexual object to him and that was clearly fine with her. Over time, our relationship became mutually unsatisfying, and a lot of that was sexual and was related to her prior relationships. She withheld sex and I withheld affection. Her lack of consent was a big deal and I certainly did not believe I had done anything wrong. This stuff is complicated, more complicated than yes and no.
1
Assault is assault, and knowing where the line is should be apparent to all. But the thing I don’t get is why men want women that badly. Or at all. No, not gay, just really, really, really tired of women.
3
"[W]e are still not doing what needs to be done: fully educating boys not only about the importance of consensual, ethical, mutually pleasurable sexuality...." Trying to get boys to think about sex the same way as woke women do seems futile to me. It seems to be that something would be accomplished if middle-aged women with low sex drives tried to understand the mind set of sex-obsessed young men, if for no other reason than to protect themselves. Camille Paglia is very good on this topic. She often speaks to the need not to change men but to stay alert. I love her nostalgia for the precincts of Binghamton, New York in the 50s when working class girls learned to watch out for themselves. The goal of turning men into meek apologetic gentleman doesn't seem achievable. The Antioch model of incremental consent was laughed at 25 years ago. Nothing has changed. It seems difficult to get sex managers to understand that talking is not the goal of sex.
3
Unless you are in a loving committed relationship, preferably marriage, you are a just a means to an end while engaging in sexual activities. This goes for both the man and woman.
The more we stray away from love, marriage, and commitment the more sexual violations we will endure.
1
Also hugging in professional settings. Why do men hug women, even those they’ve just met, but shake hands with other men? Weird.
1
@Tom Baroli Pictures of women hugging men all over news.
1
The cases we are covering are the NY media types like Cosbys(who I have heard of), Weinstein(nobody I know even knows what a producer is), and a bunch of other 2nd tier celebrities who I am racking my brain to remember. In my 40 years in IT(banking and manufacturing) I have seen maybe 2-3 consensual office "affairs" that led to divorce, 5-7 "office romances" that have led to marriages and a whole bunch of people working hard to feed their family. In fact among my friends (all of whom are presentable married college grads who were decent athletes and have raised families) when we get together now our lament is that we were TOO willing to take no for an answer only to find that some more convincing and persistent young man was able to gently convince otherwise. Getting yourself presentable to women and being abie to persuade is the way the human race continues to exist and enthusiastic "yes"'s are few and far between
This sort of argument, the shaming of male action in sex, is really getting out of hand. None of these articles seem to give any way to actually ask women for sex without being a monster. They bring up examples of young kids (who don’t know how to be mature yet anyway) and essentially soldiers (violence leads to more violence so this isn’t new) and say that the entire male gender is misogynistic. How about you just tell us what to do? Make it clear what your expectations are and how you want men to approach you for sex. That being said, while everyone agrees on the idea of consent, the expectation is different. If a women does not say no, men cannot read their minds and assume they don’t want it when they acquiesce.
2
R. Douglas Fields, wrote a book, "Why We Snap," about the nature of the human animal, "Homo Sapiens, humans are genetically predisposed to kill each other." That is why males, who are generally larger than the female, usually have their way with them, through rape, coercion, etc. in my opinion, and it will take, putting a lot of them away in prison for a very long time for this to stop, also, in my personal opinion. According to Fields, "behavior is a result of big brains, and the conscious awareness and conniving that big brain power makes possible. Two other aspects are fierce territoriality, and living in social groups." I found out decades ago, while living in the small town in Minnesota, that people were tribal, and if you didn't fit into any group, they would ostracize you, as it is innate to fit in, if you don't, you are breaking that rule.
There are some classics of sociology, like "Elmtown's Youth," which described the dating culture that was disappearing during the 1960s.
Many teenage girls were brought up in repressive homes and religions, which taught that sex was wrong and sinful, more for girls than boys. These were hypocritical cultures, in which teenagers had sex anyway.
The ritual was that a girl says no, the boy tries to convince her, ignores her protests, and continues anyway. The advantage of this ritual for the girl is that it absolves her of guilt or responsibility for sex, especially if they were drinking alcohol. (The song "Baby It's Cold Outside" is a good dramatization of this ritual.) The boy assumed all the guilt and responsibility. This allows her to say, in tears, "I'm pregnant! I didn't want to do it! Now you have to marry me. Be a man and take responsibility."
Girls seemed to have ways of signaling when they *really* wanted to stop -- but it's easy for these contrary signals to get misunderstood. It's not a good system.
I don't defend this system. I personally hated it, and I was glad to see it go. I prefer honest communication. "No" means "no." But the social scientists told me not to be judgmental. These irrational-seeming habits usually have an understandable reason behind them.
Now it seems to be coming back. Writers like Orenstein are in effect arguing that, whatever the woman says (or doesn't say), whatever happens, it's the man's fault. I think it's still a bad system.
1
The term “good guy”, or “great guy” both of which I hear constantly in professional settings, has no real female equivalent. It’s how men endorse each other mindlessly, reflexively. It should be abolished.
1
Most teenagers in the US get a minimal amount of education about the mechanics of procreation, and almost nothing about the experience of sex, especially the emotional elements and the specifics of consent. This needs to change. Oh, and don't have sex with someone you don't know and trust if you're drunk or high. This alone would reduce consent issues dramatically.
2
That sounds good as far as it goes, but shouldn't we also think about helping women feel responsible enough not to say things like "I don't want to, but I'll let you" if they really don't want to? And whatever the statistics are, individuals are individuals. Obviously millions of women are not particularly bothered by sexual assault, at least as a political issue, since they voted for a man who bragged about it.
Men and women are different. I'm gay (male), and I remember many times in my life when other men maneuvered me into something I didn't really want to do. But I felt responsible for my consent, even when the power imbalance favored them (there is ALWAYS a power imbalance when there are two human beings). Sometimes I ended up enjoying it, sometimes I didn't, but it never struck me as a big deal. Is this a difference between men & women? Between gay & straight? Or a difference between feeling autonomous or not? I don't know, I'm just posing the question. Maybe heterosexuality has inherent problems that homosexuality doesn't. Maybe men & women should get to know each other before they have sex?
1
This was a powerful article that challenge me and I hate to say, "but"... but...
My first wife and I had been dating for three months with very little intimate contact, but at that point, things heated up quickly and we wound up rolling around on her apartment floor with her moaning, "Don't seduce me. Don't seduce me." So I didn't. But she invited me to spend the night in her bed, and in the morning, we (maybe, I) started kissing and cuddling, and we were married 19 months later.
The article may get at the bigger and more important part of the problem, but denying that there is more to it than that isn't the route to a solution.
2
You can read anything you want into the "percentages" shown in this article as expectations. All I know is there is A LOT of sex going on in our current era, and there are more tools available for that to happen.
Honesty isn't always part of the process however on either side.
I was prepared to dismiss Ms Orenstein's opinion out of hand, instinctively wondering her response if a man had the temerity to write an opinion about "young women, femininity, emotional intimacy and sex."
Instincts most certainly can be wrong.
Ms Orenstein's observations are more humanistic than feminist. They cut to the core of what culture means to the quality of life for people.
Her comments about young men's attitudes about sex with young women should resonate with every man. Not every man will pressure or assault a woman; honor and self respect are not completely extinct male attributes. But all men knew someone like those "good guys" described by Ms Orenstein.
The reality is that sex drives are strongest from 18 to 35+/- and chemistry is a factor; for all men of all races and socio economic strata. Culture is the only brake on chemistry. If the culture is theocratic and resolute in their superiority, then men will behave one way; see Saudi Arabia. If the culture is misogynistic, exploitative and titillating, then you have Hollywood, some high tech companies and others. And so on.
Our culture has become coarse for a variety of reasons and behavioral boundaries have moved from the constraints of conscience.
We must have more respect for each other as individuals and our culture must reinforce that respect. Thanks Ms Orenstein for a well written opinion.
My teenage daughter told me that a friend told her just today that it is not rape if both people are drunk. She asked what I thought. It was difficult for me to stay calm while I explained that no getting drunk is not consent. And that being drunk is not a legal defense.
Just last week a college student told me that at Frat parties the young men get the girls drunk and rape them.
The young men consider that sex. If girls go to a party then they are consenting. The girls or young women blame themselves for getting drunk and wonder why they don't enjoy it.
I want to scream. This is 2019.
365
May I suggest that people in these situations get drunk to avoid accountability? If women are going to be equal we have to be responsible for our decisions including maintaining control over ourselves. We cannot expect young men to “ take care of” young women who don’t look out for themselves. Sex amounting to “buyer’s remorse” does not become rape when equally irresponsible parties sober up.
41
Woman and man get drunk at party:
Drunken man: 100% responsible for his actions.
Drunken woman: 0% responsible for her actions.
This new standard doesn't seem to make any more sense than the old standard.
88
@Peter Piper It's actually the exact opposite -- see Kavanaugh hearings... A man drinks, can't possibly be responsible. A woman drinks, she must bear full responsibility. Heck, even if she doesn't drink, well she shouldn't have -- worn what she did, gone where she did, said what she did, blah blah blah... We are done being gaslit...
114
Parent of two teenaged boys here, and from the time they were in late elementary school, we started talking to them about "enthusiastic consent" regarding any sexual activity. You know, the idea that everyone involved should be enthusiastically participating, or the activities should stop. If you're not really into what's going on, you have a responsibility to yourself to slow down or stop. If your partner is not enthusiastic about whatever sexual activity is happening, you have the responsibility to them to slow down or stop. There is so much pressure on boys to always be the sexual aggressors, we have a lot of work to do to undo that narrative and make boys feel comfortable with saying "no" for themselves, as well as accepting "no" from their partners (even if that 'no' is simply silence and a tense body). Teaching young people that everyone involved in a sexual encounter should be clearly enthusiastic about what is happening, or the sexual activity shouldn't be taking place, seems like a standard everyone (or at least every 'good person') can be taught to understand and adopt.
I'd like to see more role-playing education in high schools. In addition to the obvious need for consent eduction in boys and men, and assertiveness practise for women and girls, there needs to be discussion of 'complex settings' - the decisive moments where things can spiral out of control.
Women in particular are weak at even noticing when circumstances are potentially sexual. This means they often find themselves suddenly in vulnerable settings where denying consent seems likely to lead to greater danger. There are reasons women go along with violation and that is a big one.
If you are a decent, nice person, you're just not going to be aware of opportunities to violate other people. You're not going to be taking steps to protect yourself either. Role-playing practise is therefore essential - for everyone - but especially for women and girls.
Aptly describing the animal as a bear, this article leaves to the imagination the fact that bears kill to eat. A bear is an omnivore. A bear is a hunter of easiest opportunity. A bear never regrets, and a bear will not change it’s instinctual behavior.
Don’t we called these human bears “players”?
1
Men have behaved badly, violently, stupidly, blindly for centuries -- we (I'm a 70-year-old married man) are now being called to account, rightly, for that history. Women are seizing their right to own their own story, their body, their anger, and their freedom to say yes or no.
A by-product of this emotional era is that men, even the modest 'bears' among us, are fighting change in varied ways -- from outright rage to downright confusion. High school and college men may be the most confused of all. I have to believe there are lots of young men wanting to do the right, just thing by young women -- but have no adult males as role models, and perhaps don't know how to look to women for guidance.
Women have sometimes said to men, Just listen, don't talk right now. But I have to wonder, where are the men who can speak thoughtfully, intelligently about this whole matter of man-woman, boy-girl relationship? We are in an evolutionary era -- it seems some women may not want to hear from men (I don't know, as a man) in the sexual consent discussion. Reparations are definitely due women -- men need help with this.
How can men advance the matter of consent and relationship? I have two sons and a daughter, age 23. They seem kind and considerate -- but try as we have, have my wife and I helped them with sexual consent? The issue is radically complex -- relationships are fraught. Men should not dominate this conversation -- just help us know how to join in productively.
@SGK I suspect if we could go back in time we would see that men have behaved this way since we evolved as humans. Men are, on average, more aggressive. This isn't an excuse for how men behave now, we should never ignore the fact that all human beings are animals. The learned behavior that is needed to supplant instinctual behavior is very hard gained.
If the male is sober, good decision making is possible. If they have been doing drugs, not so much. Most if not all men know when they are pushing the window too hard if sober.
1
So the next time I read about spontaneous overwhelmingly passionate sex, I should automatically think assault, because there never seems to be this pre discussion on exactly what and exactly where preceding the event.
Words like lust and passion will cease to exist because just before climax, she could still be confused and the guy needs to be fully aware of what’s happening in her mind. I’m beginning to think that Nancy Reagan was right. Just say NO and say it loudly and clearly.
3
This was a depressing read. I can only imagine the damage that will go on into the future after Kavanaugh´s confirmation giving cover for the "good boys" who get carried away. Society seems to have only reached the point where men with a pattern of sexual assault pay a consequence. Until the first offense is the last offense, those who allow their wants to dominate those of another will continue these behaviors.
1
Rather than approaching the subject of date rape with men, why do we not hear about it from the woman's point of view, apart from comments here?
As a straight man who has been around the block a few times (74 years worth), I cannot recall any sexual encounter wherein I have overstepped what my partner wanted or accepted.
I agree that men can seem to be dense when the testosterone flows, but what we are is what we have learned, usually from adults or in locker room boasting. Let us hear the discussion from women's points of view. Can't hurt.
1
There is no physical imperative for a man to engage in sex with a woman, especially ( not "even" but "especially" ) when he is drunk. Any physical tensions, he knows how to release them. The imperative he feels to take advantage of a woman when she is under-the-influence derives from ignorance, violence, and an almost worldwide cultural view that women who aren't at all times vigilant, and sober, deserve what they get.
4
You seem to be so close to the truth, but you don't go there. The "bear in the room", is an animal. Yet you describe the problem in purely rational terms.
The reason that young men don't see what they are doing is wrong, is not because they haven't learned the difference between right and wrong. It is because they can't help it.
Try taking an adolescent dose of testosterone, and then show me how rationally you act in all situations. The "bear in the room", is in fact more like a bear in the room, than a rational creature.
2
They can’t help it? Oh okay. So girls and other boys for that matter...and be prepared to participate in whatever sex boys want because boys can’t help it. Because only boys have hormones. Because only boys enjoy sex. Sheesh.
Nice guys don't do those things. The problem is that most creeps want to believe they are nice guys ad long as as their belief doesn't interfere with their criminal acts.
Kind of like many of the supposedly innocent bankers of the last fifteen years. The ones who said they didn't realize they were in a bubble and making it bigger. Many of those guys have decided to live in England and other countries that criminal bankers hide in .
I came of age in the seventies and, the facts are, most guys didn't push women or abuse women sexually. The difference is, those 70's guys weren't raised in a steady diet of internet pornography. And they weren't fed criminal storylines on television, in the movies, and in video games.
The ancient Greeks knew that if you let perverts tell your kids stories, they would corrupt them.
Women have agency, and if they can’t say “no,” they just as culpable.
3
I can't help but feel this piece's credibility was lost with this from the author: "women’s accusations are inherently more credible than male denial". Really....we are back to that? So now we must make THAT mental leap? Sorry...at 50 years of age I've seen plenty of lying and manipulation by a small subset of women....enough to realize that accusations can be absolutely baseless. Sorry....that's not the kind of society that I want for my son or daughter.
5
I have never understood how sexual encounters that aren't to the delight of all involved dont immediately bring the whole thing to a screeching halt. Who can enjoy sex with someone who's not enjoying what's happening. There is nothing sexy about that. i suspect there must be a power dynamic thing there for some men that never was for me. especially if you were making someone scared, how could you continue to be excited sexually? I can't say and I dont envy anyone trying to navigate all of this. That being said, I think we have some work to do to understand male sex drive and male sexuality more generally. I remember feeling rather tortured by my sex drive at various times in my life. There was a lot of tension and self loathing involved. I think this and other articles I've read trivialize what's going on for men. it's not just about sexual conquest or something. There are a whole host of emotional components and fear of rejection is probably the big one. I think more then anything what we are seeing is the various ways men react to fear, self doubt, loneliness and yes sex drive. it's not uncommon to see emotionally immature (often young) men react to fear, self doubt, etc. with aggression outside of sexual situations. It stands to reason the same may happen in sexual encounters. I agree this needs our attention, but I think its possible we demonize men to a degree that over simplifies the problem. educating our men isn't enough, I suspect they need emotional tools as well.
2
What makes the author think it's just young men who are the problem. The same men grow up to be older men who do the same thing now having gotten away with it for decades feel more entitled to do it. I had a friend who met someone on the senior dating site OurTime.com who after being rebuffed (fortunately my friend had grown up to be a grown up woman able to deal with said behavior) verbally insulted her and women in general in very foul language. And what what we learned about Kavenaugh? Men in their 30's and 40's who diddle their or other people's children? All the politicians and high level exec's? They're not young either. No, it's men in general, most men.
1
This is another in NY TImes articles that promotes hate speech against men. For example, the women in the picture are protesting the alleged actions of Brett Kavanaugh who was confirmed in his hearing for a supreme court nomination.
Although this was supposed to be hearing regarding the issues that Kavanaugh might support as supreme court justice, it degenerated into a media trial for an attempted rape that Kavanaugh was alleged to have committed several decades ago while in high school.
The evidence presented was the word of an accuser. But apparently nobody else could remember the alleged incident in sufficient detail to provide corroboration of the accuser's testimony. This is not surprising. People simply forget what has happened that far in the past.
That's the reason we have statutes of limitations. After sufficient time has passed, determination of consent becomes impossible to determine.
The presumption should be that a person is presumed innocent unless proven guilty.
This has been reversed by feminists who seem to claim that unsupported allegations are always true if the accuser is a woman.
It is much more likely that men and women lie at approximately the same rates. In which case, if you wait 30 years to bring a charge of attempted rape, it should probably not even be considered.
Far from discriminating against women, our society discriminates against men.
The US incarceration rate is 14 times that of Japan, and almost of the prisoners are men.
7
@Jake Wagner re: picture of three women. I recognize two of these ladies as the ones that confronted Senator Flake in the elevator during the Kavanough hearings, then later, gave a victory hug to each other. The entire scene, Suspiciously staged. Also, the woman on left doesn’t appear sincerely aggrieved (IMO).
1
The one scenario rarely considered because of unhealthy assumptions made about males is one in which the female wants sex and the male either does not want it or has reasons for not engaging. Personally, I am aware of the kinds of coercive emotional blackmail that is employed by women who desire sex and use all manner of “feminine wiles” to make sex happen. And their motivations for engaging in sex are not always the purest. It seems that these discussions always turn on the fact that women are generally not interested in sex and there is no discussion of how some women manipulate men emotionally and send confusing signals because of their need to be found attractive.
Sex for both men and women has a strong emotional component and important psychological meanings. Yet the emotional and psychological meaning of sex in males tends to be completely ignored in favor of the animalistic narrative that sex is purely physical and without meaning to men while being emotionally difficult or damaging to females.
Neither is much consideration given to the fact that the problems around sexual interactions have become far more prevalent since society and the culture have given women as much legitimacy to pursue sex as men and presented women as being just as sexual as men. No used to mean “ don’t even think about it”. Now it seems to mean “maybe. Let me think about it.”
2
@Pops Amen. But women are once again sanctified in the #MeToo Victorianism.
1
The beast with two backs has been turned upside down. It’s no longer clear who is doing what to whom. The only way not to lose in the psychosexual scrum for power and domination is not to engage. Read philosophy instead.
2
The issue at hand is described but comes short of the correct conclusion, as do most here who think this is some sort of learned behavior. The sex drive in a young male is probably the most powerful urge that exists, absent an addiction to heroin or crystal meth. Men don't need to understand anything beyond at what point their primal instincts clouding their ability to be rational in the situation described by the author. Sex is not an act of aggression as much as it is a drive to procreate, thus why the urge is so strong. Under these circumstances a young man can justify anything when so close to the goal. Educating boys about entitlement is "man-hate speak" and does not deserve to be taken seriously. Educating boys on their biology and what the clues are when they are acting irrationally could solve the problem. As with most articles of this kind it was written for women and will elicit mostly eye rolls from men. Thankfully, although I had a straight period and I am the father of two children with an ex-wife, I'm gay. If I were straight I might seek reverse-conversion therapy
1
This new, new, new definition of consent being pushed in this piece is "Affirmative Consent." The Affirmative Consent doctrine is meant to criminalize all male sexual and romantic activities.
Its overt conclusions are:
1, ALL men are by their nature sexual predators-primary aggressors and need a straightjacket legal based nanosecond by nanosecond management. This to ensure that the "man/predator" is totally responsible for any and all "interpretations" by the "victim" before, during, and after any sexual encounters, of any degree or substance. Stiff criminal penalties, economic destruction, and social ostracization will be applied without the presumption of innocence.
2. All women of any age are effectively children and unable to give consent. Women's sex is "taken" and thus all sex is criminal by nature. Therefore a nebulous and arbitrary criminal definition of consent is needed to ensure they, the "victims" can apply any cause or motive before, during, and after, for either party, any sexual encounter with a man or women at any degree no matter how slight or innocuous.
This militant feminist attitude promulgates a legal doctrine that is simply meant to criminalize men, relieve women of any responsibility for their actions, and to shift the power structure in which women can use sex as leverage to destroy men's lives and thus replace and or subjugate them economically, socially, and politically.
7
I didn't want to, but I did. I was a virgin and inexperienced, and clearly not ready. He was physically much larger than me and a navy guy in for a week after a long distance relationship. There was a lot of pressure to "perform" as it were. Surely when I stiffened up and was clearly dissassociating he noticed. Surely he knew I wasn't ready when he continued to try to coerce me into doing all kinds of things I wasn't ready to do. Surely he knew exactly what he was doing when he got angry and visibly disappointed when I couldn't continue or rebuffed him. If you have to beg and make your partner feel guilty, that's not enthusiastic consent.
I said, yes, sure, but it felt like I couldn't say no and be a good girlfriend. I felt like since we had such a limited amount of time I had to try and meet his needs even though I wasn't interested in having sex at all. I'm an educated person and someone who would never have thought I would wind up in a mess like that, but I was genuinely worried what might happen if I just said no because my no was always met with a but baby-
The point is, it's very easy to say we need an enthusiastic no or yes, but I think you also need to be aware of the other person's body language. If I'm giving you dead fish, I'm clearly not into this. If I've told you beforehand that I was a victim of childhood abuse and you don't take that extra into account, I do think as the more experienced partner you have to be extra careful. It's just a mess.
242
@K Sadly, I think this happens a lot. We need to teach our daughters how to say "no". I remember when I was much younger that I had problems saying "no" and got myself into several situations that were difficult to get out of. It is unfair to expect a man or boy to accept all of the responsibility. Women need to accept responsibility for their behavior and not blame men for their own submissiveness.
28
@Linda
why should any of the situations you elude to have been "difficult to get out of"? If your partners respected women and understood consent in the sense of partnership in any sexual act, then they would not have been difficult situations. that is the point of the op-ed. if a moment is leading to a sexual encounter and one person is acting submissive or one partner values submissiveness (usually a man valuing submissiveness in the woman), then there is already a problem that should be readily recognized by one or both.
22
@K
Sometimes people are uncomfortable with having sex, even when it is fully consensual. Past abuse and personal beliefs play a role. Discomfort alone isn't a clear sign of anything, if it is picked up, because we really aren't clairvoyant.
Perhaps it wasn't clear to him that you didn't want to have sex. When you say you felt that you had to try to meet his needs, I suspect that he was reading that ambivalence as close enough to permission, and ignoring any clues to the contrary, like the young men in these interviews.
”I felt like I couldn't say no" has made many women miserable with the consequences. Females need to own the power of saying Yes and No based on their own needs and values - not because of what they perceive a date/partner wants and not out of fear of anger or rejection.
Young women are still "punished" socially for either choice. BUT an enthusiastic yes is not even possible unless you can say no.
Speaking up with clarity and owning our decisions takes forethought and practice. Girls often adapt the art of being vague, to avoid confrontation. But some interactions call for a direct clear NO, in words and matching body language, not reliance on some guy's sensitivity. Your body, your mind, your call.
The situation you shared is not untypical. It reminded me of some past encounters.
@ Didi: I don't pick up anything deliberate about it, but the message was mixed. The recipient chose what he wanted to hear, and blocked the rest.
18
This article bothers me but not for the reasons the author hopes. Women are not helpless or dumb. We can authoritatively manage an unambiguous no. We can also engage in mating behaviors with varying degrees of remorse, immediate or delayed that, if also studied, would hardly be universally flattering. I am troubled by the creeping binary narrative that men have base instincts and are predatory while women are innocent victims. That has never been my experience. I believe the vast, vast majority of men are pretty great as they are.
299
@LHP "We can authoritatively manage an unambiguous no". Really? Tell that to the assault & abuse survivors who freeze and dissociate under stress. To the women whose bosses are threatening them with exposure, deportation. To the women whose children are being threatened, or who have been cut off from friends, family, job, etc. Don't be so smug.
79
@LHP I fully agree, but see the NYT pick comment written by Liza. The" Frat" boys may provide alcohol and may encourage the drinking of alcohol, but don't and can't force drinking I think.
11
@LHP
I'm thinking you've just never been in such a situation, so you're having problems relating.
Try turning up the gain on your empathy; also try admitting that even great people make stupid choices, act in not so great ways sometimes.
42
One of the most important elements discussed in this column is the critical need not to view perpetrators of sexual assault -- and other crimes -- as "monsters". This kind of othering lets us off the hook. We are all humans, even those who commit the worst, most heinous acts. We cannot clearly see our own dangerous impulses if we label every criminal a "monster" who does not need to be reckoned with as a member of our human family.
The defensiveness in many of the comments here is a perfect illustration of why it is a problem to put both perpetrators and victims of sexual assault into a box built of judgement and denial. Kavanaugh is on the Supreme Court because too many people could not see him as both a successful lawyer from an elite background and as someone who as a teen drank too much and committed sexual assault.
This is not at all an argument for lenient approaches to these crimes, by the way. I am simply saying we can't be better people, collectively, unless we acknowledge our own worst elements.
138
@Susan. I think the author actually wants us to think of them as bears. Not a bad notion since, thinking of them like that, I would never go home with one I had just met, even if I’d had a pretty good time.
10
on the other hand women (and men) knew that if someone asked you for sex that you didn't want, in a quid pro quo deal, you were supposed to say no. I remember a man who literally stripped down to convince me of his passion. It was embarrassing to both of us but I still said no. He didn't hold a grudge. A man who would hold a grudge was considered less than a"real" man. Men who used the casting couch were considered less than men who didn't, no matter how rich or powerful they were.
And the reality is, if you can't get sex on the strength of your personality (and other positive attributes), then you aren't an alpha, no matter what else you have. Instincts don't change.
Amen.
I and many of my friends were "sort of" raped by friends, acquaintances and boyfriends when we were in our teens and twenties.
At that age, a huge percentage of young men are more interested in "convincing" women to have sex with them than care about whether a woman really wants to have sex.
Alcohol, pressure, guilt-tripping, pretending to be interested or care about a woman they don't actually care about in order to make sex with her happen if she's not willing are all in play. We've all been there.
What's really important is to educate young women about all these issues so they aren't talked into sexual situations they don't want to be in to get a boyfriend, make a man pressuring them stop it, be popular and accepted, feel like they're 'supposed to' have sex they don't want or aren't ready for.
I wouldn't be a 17 year old girl again for all the money in the world. It was a nightmare.
3
Rape is a very serious problem. But it is not the only problem and cannot be a reason to recede from all the advances we have made in treating people as individuals. What is called "social justice," is the opposite of actual justice. It is a form of bigotry. Justice requires guilt/innocence be judged individually, not by group. Not by sex, not by ethnicity. This author, dealing with an important problem, feels justified in concluding:
"All of which would indicate that in these high-profile cases, women’s accusations are inherently more credible than male denial, regardless of how vehement that denial may be."
Human behavior, sexual and otherwise, is too complex for such easy conclusions, whether rape, like or what are called "hate crimes." Unfortunately, it seems the media and advocates often take to heart the worst cases which prove false. Do we learn nothing from cases such as "the Duke rape case," Tawana Brawley, even Jussie Smollett? People can lie about everything and that includes being victim. It is also a tremendous problem that so many of our youth are being taught to seek the glory of victimhood and even make things up. How many sensationalized outrages and crimes have to be proved false for people to realize what seem easy rushes to judgment are often wrong.
Rape and assault should be investigated and punished. But, not with a presumption that "he" or "she" should more likely be believed. That is also wrong.
1
If a grown woman can’t assert herself then I don’t want to be with her. I tell my daughter regularly to raise her voice and be heard. If you don’t want to do something, say so! Don’t abdicate your responsibilty for your own body.
1
Communication. It starts young, with learning to name our body parts correctly, and what their purpose it.
Our kids are educated over many years through the UU's Our Whole Lives (OWL) foundation of sexual and reproductive health. Google it - it's the solution to many of these problems.
On the first day of OWL this year, the parents gathered in a circle and stated why we want our 1st graders to learn appropriate sexual health. These were some answers:
Learning boundaries.
We decide what to do with our bodies.
There are many ways to be masculine.
Confidence and consent.
Our bodies can give us pleasure without shame.
The most shocking example was a DA who prosecuted child sex crimes, and said that the biggest legal problem is that children don't even know the right language for their body parts and can't describe what crime has been committed because they know the words. Wow.
We have to move past this. We have to get human sexuality out into the open, and get over this puritanical nonsense asap. It's a matter of health and safety.
1
There is a large hole in Peggy's article. As someone who has been involved in disputed cases of sexual assault on campus, I agree that it was fairly consistent that the young men in each case thought things were fine, and could usually point to text messages and voicemails that seemed to confirm their point.
However, the young women were also consistent - voluntary involvement with their male counterpart, no immediate signs of unhappiness with the encounter, followed up days or weeks later by feelings of regret, embarrassment and then anger. Usually there is a friend who reinforces the idea that this was not consensual. This ability to deconstruct an event, analyze every aspect and come up with a different outcome than what seemed to occur at the time is at the heart of these conflicts.
Just as men easily believe everything was ok, women seem predisposed to turn regret over the act or embarrassment over the person (foreign, ethnic, race) into an encounter that was not consensual. I'm not sure that gets fixed.
4
Perhaps the next step in all this is not so much belief, but where to go from there. Assume (for the sake of argument) that am not someone who dismisses allegations of rape or reflexively takes a man’s word over a woman’s. In fact, let’s be more specific. I believe Dr. Ford and I do not belief now-Justice Kavanaugh. I don’t find it difficult or uncomfortable to weigh credibility and I find the woman who’s never lied to me before more credible than a man who’s lied on multiple occasions.
I guess I’m looking for guidance on what next. I don’t care about how long ago an assault happened, but what to do about proving it? Arguably, non-criminal actions donm’t require stringent amounts of proof, but a violent offender should surely be prosecuted. Has there been any progress on making that possible? I ask because no amount of belief, no matter how genuine, can take a sexual predator off the streets. Without physical evidence or witnesses, what kind of legal tools can society apply?
Conversely, it’s no contradiction to say that, yes, I DO also care about the other side. I assume that a person accused of rape could theoretically be cleared if they could prove they had consent. I am asking a very literal question and hope someone has fresh ideas on this: HOW can consent be shown? Even if it really did exist, a guy could make up any story he wanted, but what proof could ever be offered?
Maybe I’m slow, but I’m coming up empty on these questions.
Its not just men and sex. I have never met or seen anybody who is doing something awful who doesn't, deep down, believe they are not the problem. "He made me do it" or "It was her fault" or "They agreed to it". Heard those, and other variations, so, so many times. We lie and justify our actions so we can live with ourselves.
1
After reading the conservative comments here that say: go back to no sex outside of marriage, and the liberal self-righteous comments talking about men who misinterpret signs as the same as malicious rapists, I think part of the issue is the ongoing consequences of modernity’s act of throwing out ancient traditions. Our society isn’t going to return to the patriarchal structures of The Bible (whichever one you like). But we haven’t gotten rid of the assumptions of that system, Especially the one in which men decide women’s fates. Men and women are not communicating well in part because they’re not discussing the new sexual deal. Which is what? The calls for more sex Ed assumes we agree on the curriculum. The calls for positive consent at each stage are vague and strike many as impractical. They strike me as a band-aid covering over a lack of standard procedures, as if the whole onus of inventing a social contract has to happen last-minute and in the bedroom. The men who take advantage of this vacuum of customs are doing something gross, awful. But the system we have now is a false casualness that lies to all parties.
5
It’s not that men don’t know what consent is, it’s that our society places higher existential value upon men than it does women, and it’s been that way for so long that an alarming number of people believe it to be the natural order.
There are no monsters, just like there aren’t actually any good people. There are just people, and we’re all flawed.
That being said, there is a vast difference between the typical amount of human imperfection, and the profoundly sociopathic tendencies of some, whose actions have continued with impunity for far too long.
Let's not ignore how men respond to each other's crossing the line and acting where there is no consent. They ignore the offense ... maybe because they themselves have acted the same way. The incident is brushed aside as of no import, no moment, adding another stick on the fire of essential disrespect of women. How else can any sensible person explain #KavaNope? Simple, sexual assault just didn't matter and didn't require either truth-telling nor an apology.
1
As a man in his twenties, I can’t willfully dismiss so many of the valid points that Ms. Orenstein raises here. However, I agree with much of the critique and her brush strokes are too broad, the message too distorted by this attempt to understand the nebulous workings of the sexual male ego, without well - any male voices! Except for the college sophomore guy who indicts himself by admitting he did not abide by the standards he should have! His voice needs to be heard, right?
On the night of my 21st birthday I went out bar hopping with my brother and it was a funny reality check when I ended up as the the object of a pack of cougars’ attention - at first I was flattered, but as I desire emotional connection before I can get to sexual gratification, and none of the women were willing to supply it, by the end of the night I was mostly just saddened and disillusioned. I’m aware this situation occurs much more to women, being ogled and preyed upon, though as a guy with more of the power to determine the course of things, I just went with my moral compass and stuffed them.
Mind you, I was still sort of regretful the morning after, like, “I coulda ‘had some fun!” But I knew better then as I do now, trespassing on principle is not worth any amount of fun.
Men have the ability to help other males with their their struggles to have a healthy sexuality, and the same is true for women! I can’t begin to speak to a woman’s understanding save anecdotal experience and so I will not!
2
OK, let's all perform the following thought experiment: There are two people in a room. One of them wants to have sex with the other one, but the other one doesn't really want to. One of these persons is a man and the other one is a woman. Question: which one is the man?
Now I will bet dollars to donuts that more than 99% of all responders will say that the person who wants to have sex is the man. And guess what? In real life, most of the time this will be the correct answer. I think that understanding (or trying to understand, perhaps) why this is the case is the first step towards understanding the problem of sexual consent.
1
As to the photograph accompanying the article: I realize that this has become accepted usage in American English, but to me the word 'survivor' still means someone who went through an experience that was life-threatening, like cancer or attempted murder. I came across this exaggerated usage of 'to survive' first, when Oprah Winfrey's show was broadcast on Dutch television years ago, and I still find it irritating. Is it used in British English in this sense?
2
@Elisabeth I disagree. I consider myself as much a surviving Catholic as a recovering Catholic.
1
We hear in other fields about "confirmation bias," where people tend to observe, believe, and remember things that confirm the biases they already have. Is it really surprising that when a male is sexually attracted to a female, he'll tend to privilege information suggesting she's sexually interested in him over any information he receives that she's not?
Sex education has to go far beyond the idea that sex should require consent, just as simply knowing confirmation bias exists doesn't prevent people from being subject to it. But in American culture, the idea of teaching sexual self-control is unfortunately so tied up with religion that secular culture doesn't know how to teach the value without relying on shame as the tool to teach it.
2
@Heather
"We hear in other fields about "confirmation bias," where people tend to observe, believe, and remember things that confirm the biases they already have."
I think that sums up the author and her opinion piece quite nicely.
3
This was all explained to me at a tender age for a male by my grandfather, who, when he saw my interest begin to blossom for the opposite sex, asked my a question that resonates with me to this day, over 50 years ago. "What is the difference between rape and seduction" he asked? I could not come up with an answer, so he explained one of the best pieces of advise I ever received in one, simple word. "Conversation"
And the light went on as I realized the depth behind that one word was a whole philosophy, that all I needed to do was learn how to talk to a woman instead of ever trying to force myself on another human being, that we could engage in mutually agreed upon events, whatever we decided those might be.
I must add that at my age, I see this as a type of a guide path to young men that is no longer being passed forward to the younger generation(s), which is very sad indeed.
4
It interests me that at a time in society when consensual sex is arguably more available than ever that rape and violent rape is still so prevalent. One might expect a reduction. Maybe there would be, if it was about satisfying sexual need. However the theory that it is about exercising power gains strength from these conditions.
Invading armies have traditionally raped women as an expression of now being able to. It is a weapon of war.
1
Some of the things in this article just strike me as so sad and depressing. Perhaps even the way Peggy Orenstein thinks of consent is sad. Is it consent if a woman does something that is clearly against her own interests?
Consent is not what we should be aiming for, for women, in sexual matters. It is not enough. What we should be aiming for is that sex takes place within loving, monogamous relationships (with, perhaps, a few tolerated exceptions).
Sex is so dangerous for women, so fraught, and men are so much bigger and stronger, that a woman should know that a man cherishes and loves her — that he holds her best interests at heart — before they attempt sex. She should know that he will be there to protect her reputation (because it turns out women care a lot about intimate photos); that he will stop if things become painful; that he will be prepared, too, to deal with unplanned parenthood if it arises.
I heard about one teenage boy who refused a girl’s offer of oral sex because he said “if anything goes wrong, I will be blamed.” This is the attitude that men should have, because they are the stronger party —less at risk of STDs, overpowerment, and the psychological fears women have, never mind pregnancy.
We need to acknowledge that sex is dangerous for women. Marriage and love were ways women kept ourselves safe. A culture that encourages causal sex hurts women. “Consent” will not fix that — as much as, I know, women love sex, too.
2
One of a number of Times OpEds that group all men together as all engaging in the same horrible behaviors. The arguable value of the point being made is seriously undermined by the fact that a group is being stereotyped. If someone submitted an OpEd that stereotyped women, it would be considered unacceptable. Why is it OK to do it to men? Stereotyping is the language of hate.
I am a man. I understand the boundaries of consent and I have never pushed or broken them. There is no instance in my entire life in which I have any sexual encounter that would not qualify under the most stringent definition of affirmative consent. Yet this column is calling me a rapist without knowing me or recognizing the efforts I've made to do right by the people in my life.
It is true as this column suggests that much more clear guidance and education for young people needs to be given regarding consent as they develop their understanding of sexuality. However, the approach of this column would seem to suggest that clarity would involve labeling all men as rapists. This is completely unacceptable.
1
The issue isn’t having the ability to say yes or no. It’s the fact that you can retroactively decide that you didn’t feel “comfortable” after 20 years and ruin someone’s life.
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Men have no clue what goes on inside a woman's head and are not taught to care, and this I would argue is at the root of the problem. I went through 20 years of psychotherapy so that I would not become like my father. I passed on to my son what I learned about boundaries and respect; and taught my daughter what she needed to know so that she could repel inevitably unwanted advances as she grew older.
Today, both my kids are young adults. They know that consent is borne first of mutual respect, then trust, caring and ultimately some form of love. I do not mean to boast but I taught them these things.
This, I believe, is how we can change society -- one male at a time.
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Absolutely right. Humans often understand that what they're doing is wrong and they do ti anyway. Men and Women alike.
I was born in the late 50's. From my earliest memories, I was taught that the territory belongs to the biggest and baddest bear. It starts out with arguments about who has the right to stand on whose property. Fist fights settle the issue. The best fighter becomes the admired leader. He then gets "first dibs"on everything until he is challenged and defeated.
Then we go to school and play "King of The Hill" on the monkey bars. Once again we have an admired winner. That winner was usually helped to his victory by plenty of kicks and finger stomps.
These games continue throughout adolescence and into puberty. These become football games after school with the older kids. Bloody noses and swollen faces are common. Cry once and you're going to get beat up badly. Fights after school settle disputes. The winner takes all.
Eventually we enter into organized sports at about the same time as we begin to get interested in girls. The meanest guy on the football field got his pick of the cheerleaders. Everyone knew the game, on and off the field. Aggression was admired. Toughness was cultivated. Trivial cruelties bestowed upon classmates drove the point home; "My Territory".
This "art of being an alpha male" extends to all aspects of life. Alpha males like the view and the perks that come with being at the top of the monkey bars. They want; they take.
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@Wiley Cousins
And ultimately they are alone and humiliated.
This shouldn’t be that complicated, to the point of explicit affirmations for every type of sexual activity, but it may be moving in this direction. A lack of early sexual education may be a contributor, but I grew up with none and still somehow knew what to do/ not to do w/o asking. I recall 2 experiences that may be telling:
A woman 7 years older ( I was 23) who routinely explored me sexually w/o consent for all of the various sex acts she wanted to do w me. She informed me to never refer to her as my girlfriend in public. My friends said I was her boy toy and I should enjoy it.
Years later, a woman 10 years younger who I dated wanted to have intercourse, which we did several times, but we never had oral sex first or at all. I eventually asked her why, and she said she wasn’t comfortable- especially w receiving. Thus, I didn’t go there. Later, when we were breaking up she criticized me for not taking control and doing it to her anyway.
The above are brief but troubling exemplars of what young men may be facing, and confront the “male problem” narrative in the article.
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Just stop to think about this for a moment: if a woman, engaging in sexual intimacy means letting another person into your body.
The meaning of this act is wildly different for women (pleasure and bonding) than it is for men (pleasure tinged with aggression). I can hear the protests now from you men out there, but that is how it is and until men can get a grip on their sexuality, they will never subsume their desire for gratification to the consideration of the wishes of women in that specific situation.
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@RynWriter
Common sense... and the most insightful comment I have read here today. No objection from me. Its what I have taught my children.
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@rynwriter, I accept that men are more aggressive than women, but a lot of men like to experience pleasure and bonding through sex. That’s not just women. Almost everyone wants someone to love, someone to hold. Even teenage boys can be very romantic!
I’m dismayed by the number of (highly recommended) comments here that call on women to be more aggressive about saying No to unwanted, nonconsensual sexual acts.
However, where is the acknowledgement of the very real and justifiable fear experienced by women? That men who are rejected often react angrily? The fact is so-called ‘intimate partner violence,’ is one of the biggest killers of women in this country and in many places around the world.
The truth is, women are socialized to give a more nuanced or toned-down refusal- or give in- because a hard rejection can endanger a woman.
My mother certainly raised me to know what harms can befall women at the hands of men- and all she needed the newspaper to illustrate the point.
Men who feel entitled to sex can act out in scary ways when rejected. It’s ‘emasculating’ for many men. How do we address this and teach men to handle rejection safely? How do we help women to feel safe while saying no?
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"True, some of them may be monsters we know — our employers, our clergymen, our favorite celebrities, our politicians, our Supreme Court justices — but they are “monsters” nonetheless."
"All of which would indicate that in these high-profile cases, women’s accusations are inherently more credible than male denial, regardless of how vehement that denial may be."
The author doesn't hide that she aims this at Judge Kavanaugh and the allegations against him. Too bad. Her article would be far more credible without the obvious jabs. The intelligent reader can be trusted to connect the points she makes to specific cases as he/she sees fit. We do not need the author to shove a politically freighted example down our throats.
The "inherently more credible" comment in particular is not helpful. On a macro level it may be accurate (I haven't read any studies, so I'll push the 'I believe' button on the numbers she cites), but on the individual case level, it flies in the face of our system of justice. She seems to be saying that in the case of a tie -- he said, she said" -- the win goes to the woman. If she says it wasn't consensual, then convict the man on that basis: jail him, throw him out of college, deny him the judgeship, excoriate him in the court of public opinion, or fire him from his job as appropriate.
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I largely agree with the writer. However, things get more difficult as you enter the criminal realm of rape, aggravated assault etc. In this context, it is largely the intent and understanding of the alleged rapists that predominates. Specifically, did the man truly - but incorrectly - believe that he had the woman's consent because she gave no clear indication of her lack of consent. If so, it will be difficult, although not impossible depending on the circumstances, to convict.
The idea that sex is something mystical that happens without a committed relationship is the real problem. Not marriage, but at least a real friendship where both man and woman know at least the basic thought patterns of their partner. This real solution is missing in the article.
Boys and girls need to learn that sex is best, not risky, when there is a mutual friendship established first that goes beyond base attraction. Especially where drugs are involved, that’s mainly alcohol, which literally sedated the judgement centers in the brain. Both participants need take personal responsibility for everything that happens in their relationships.
Guys if real friendships is not their don’t hook up; you’ll never have to worry if you went too far, because you won’t. Gals, don’t put yourselves in dangerous situations with men that don’t know how you communicate, especially if booze are in the mix. Be encouraged.
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1) no one, not men or women, is engaging in mental gymnastics in the moment
In the moment, men and women are both engaging in what is essentially unconscious and instinctive Behavior that is informed primarily by their culture
Thus, the solution here is to change the culture to make it so that men (and women) are more inclined to constantly be aware of and make consideration of other people....
And of course to change our culture so that the masculine sees the feminine as more equal and less as the "sexual inferior" ( "an equal actor" as opposed to the "object" of sexual desire).
And to equalize the societal view of the embrace of sexuality (eg eliminate criticism of women who decide to have sexual relationships with multiple partners)
2) men engage in mental gymnastics after the fact.
when they are being interviewed by researchers studying consent or filling out surveys with dozens of questions associated with consent, for example
3) Advocates oddly prioritize monogamous sexual relationships.
Even in a perfect world, where women were empowered to indulge in their sexuality without risk of criticism from the culture at large, and empowered with the tools necessary to assert their own dominance and individuality in sexual relationships these people would stilp be advocating for monogamy over "hookups"
this is wrong. I think women should be able to enjoy sexual lives equivalent to the lives that men enjoy
It involves a Titanic shift in our culture for sure
We act as if we are raised by wolves with no direction or understanding of hurtful behavior. Are we not human beings who think and have any other emotion except self indulgence and gratification at all costs?
Apparently simple words from first grade “yes “and “no “ appear to have no meaning in the world otherwise this extremely sad piece would not have been written .
Everyone is looking for someone to stand up for them when they should be standing up for themselves excluding children who need a learned adult that is fully engaged in their lives,
Life is serious know your rights and don’t expect anyone to protect you outside of yourself. With a strong self esteem maybe we can overcome these same issues that the names change but the negative behavior of institutions remain the same .
I don't buy that good guys turn into bad guys. Yes, sexual arousal is a powerful instinct, but there are men who "tend to" repeat their "bad" behavior, and then there are the men for whom it would be unthinkable to go over the line that is always intuitively crystal clear to healthy human beings. The so-called good men who go over the line "anyway" are, in reality, anti-social males causing a great deal of harm and, in some cases, irreparable emotional damage to the woman involved.
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The very word "consent" is somewhere on a sliding scale, not far from "willingness" but also near "acceptance". Which word is nearest to "desire"? Once it was common for women to "allow" or "accept" even marital sex, possibly because neither they nor their husbands really knew what they should do to make the experience mutually pleasurable. I am not sure what proportion of modern young men and women have a clear idea of what their sexual activity should actually be like, for even in this supposedly enlightened age sex education is rarely open and honest (don't forget that most of the world is prudish, and intolerant especially of female desire or pleasure). Sex as shown by pornography on the Internet is hardly likely to encourage the kind of consideration for a partner which Ms Orenstein would like to see.
This helps clarify a lot for me. My boss constantly propositions me sexually and seems to think that my refusal means nothing. Occasionally he apologizes for his behavior, but his apologies give me the sense that he really has no empathy for how it feels to be constantly barraged with his needs, his desire, his impossibility to just control himself. I'm looking forward to reading Ms. Orenstein's book.
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This is a great piece and so important
It’s amazing how culture changes quickly
A great litmus test is the movies
If you go back in time scenes become really cringeworthy with regards to consent
I grew up in the 80’s - rewatching John Hughes movies is shocking - I was basically normalized to that behavior
I can also think of many examples even more recent that is normalizing behavior that crosses the line (the boss kissing his assistant in 27 Dresses!)
I also think the high art of Gaspar Noe and Van Trier, when they use rape, is inexcusable and perpetrates the normality of it. Sundance buzzes in excitement of how far they pushed the boundaries as women sit there with their trauma and view this work in a very different light - that work should never be produced again
We have to unwind all of that as boys and girls continue to exposed to this stuff as stronger women characters continue to dilute content today
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This piece is a really helpful discussion of the consent issue.
I am a little irritated at some of the comments complaining that it doesn't take non-consent seriously enough. I think the commenters are reading that into Ms. Orenstein's presentation, and condemning this approach will prevent us from ever reaching that vast middle ground of men who continue to oppress women sexually.
Different bears for different folks, I guess.
"even men who claimed to practice affirmative consent often had not." - this is the crime that is the basis of the authors argument.
why was there no mention of women who dont practice affirmative consent? arent they equally responsible?
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@8i Because there's a double standard.
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A heterosexual male who has had too much alcohol does not force sex on someone else because he cannot help but do so. There's always an alternative--right at hand--if he feels so strongly compelled. And others should intervene if he tries to force himself on someone who says "no" or who is incapable of full consent. A woman who has had too much alcohol cannot fully consent. Others around her bear responsibility not to take advantage of her under those circumstances.
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Remember Brett Kavanaugh's rant about beer? While reading this excellent opinion I was thinking about that and what it would have sounded like if he had said sex every time he said beer.
On a serious note, I have two teenage boys and will try even harder to engage in discussions to help them, and myself work through the realities of contemporary human sexuality.
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The same old obstacle to solution. Mindless generalisation. The whole the failure to treat individuals as individuals to pander to a non science of generalisation makes for confusiion. Decency has always been decency.
Apparently in developing countries, like India for example- teens are especially confused about sex (I just heard this on the radio). American boys still say they have no one to really inform them. Really? The internet is full of information, why do kids come up with this excuse. Maybe they want to get their info from real people, not their parents, not the church of course. This is why schools need comprehensive sex ed. It would also help if America became a culture that actually valued the act, in ALL it's shapes and forms.
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The most telling part of the piece was when the author stated some guys admitted to crossing a line. That very much sounds like a tacit admission that it’s a small minority of guys. Most of the other studies surrounded perception and expectation. Just because a guy may perceive that there is a higher probability of having sex in a given situation doesn’t mean that guy will commit sexual assault. As a society we should be encouraging honest conversations about sex instead of trying to demonize an entire gender.
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Parents and caregivers need to teach boys from a young age, and then reinforce during pre-adolescence and adolescence, the sacredness of other people's bodies and wishes (so as to apply to all sexual intimacy, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity). Boys and young men need to learn to honor and respect other people's bodies and wishes, and to learn very young that sometimes they will have strong desires that will challenge their beliefs. They need to learn to expect those inner conflicts, and to be trained to prioritize their beliefs and ethics over their sexual desires in the moments that matter the most. Most parents/caregivers do not prepare their sons for these very real moments. I have gone on dates with men in their 30s and 40s who clearly were never taught to respect women's wishes and bodies. All men have the potential to be monsters, but all parents have the responsibility to teach their boys how to be caring, thinking, and compassionate humans.
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@Leah Boys and young men must be taught that they are as precious as other people. That their grant of sexuality is also precious and needs to be reserved for a person who truly respects and loves them, just as girls must be taught. Boys need to be told that they, too, have a "gift" to bestow and that the woman must be worthy of that "gift", just as they must be worthy of the "gift" the woman has to give.
LOVE, kindness and respect is key. Show respect for others; get to KNOW them, and find out who they are as a person. Show respect and kindness toward others. Honor the personhood of the woman, recognize her need to be known as a human first, her dignity and her intrinsic worth, just as your own worth should be recognized.
NO ONE should ever be treated as a recreational object of anyone else's animal pleasure. Sex is not an end in itself. People must NEVER be exploited and one never has the right to box anyone into a corner for their own needs. This is what both boys and girls MUST be taught.
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@Leah Any particular reason all of this learning, change, education has to be done by boys? Two to tango and all. None of this is any picnic to boys either, who have their own wish list for what parents could teach girls. No doubt you know males feel the same frustrations?
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@keith curious what the boys' wish list for things girls should be taught by their parents is?
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Spot on! I worked for 16 years as a Sexual Offender Therapist in 3 different prison systems trying to get convicted rapists and molesters to see that their actions were wrong. Most of the time within 3-6 months, the majority came around to understanding they were at fault and then there were the others- the ones that didn't care or were so convinced that they had the right to sex that they were not amenable to treatment. The ones that were amenable typically completed at least 18 months of treatment. When a sexual offender goes through and completes treatment it drastically lowers their recidivism rate- in NH when I was there (2004-2011), the recidivism for committing a new sex offense within 5 years of treatment was less than 10%.
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I'm seeing the same tired advice here about not drinking too much and getting to know your partner better -- advice that implicitly puts the responsibility for policing assaults more heavily on women and suggests that sexual assault is some sort of newfangled phenomenon.
I've been sexually assaulted three times. In every case it was by someone I had known well and for a long time. In the first case I was a kid. In none of these instances was I drunk when the assault happened. In every case the men were well educated and well liked.
So, writing to you from the land of experience, I'd suggest instead that it might be time to talk to stop pretending that women can fix this. If we're serious about change, we'll talk to men--about the priorities they've internalised; about how people and sex are represented to us all and why; about who the gatekeepers are, when it comes to which stories we're most often told, and how that affects the story itself.
We'll talk to men about policing each other. Because the perpetrators among them don't need booze and anonymity. Why would they? They can rely instead on our tacit consent when we respond to sexual assault with the suggestion that women should turn to teetotaling and gender segregation (arranged marriages maybe?) to protect ourselves, because more conservative norms will save us, presumably, as they have saved the women of Saudi Arabia or India, who live free from any problem with entitled men being abusive.
...
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@AAC "I'm seeing the same tired advice here about not drinking too much and getting to know your partner better -- advice that implicitly puts the responsibility for policing assaults more heavily on women" Right or wrong, it's good advice. If people don't protect themselves then who will? As someone who has been sexually assaulted "three times" I'm sure you know that all too well.
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@warne The original poster’s first sexual assault occurred—like many women’s—when she was a child. Minor children are not in a position to “protect themselves”. This advice—historically the only advice given to anyone for sexual assault prevention, while not inherently bad if part of a comprehensive prevention strategy—has failed on its own because it places the burden of prevention exclusively on the potential victims, who may lack power to control the outcome (especially in the case of assaults of kids/teens). An equal effort must focus on prevention of sexual assaults by addressing potential perpetrators. As suggested by the OP, self/peer policing or bystander interventions by men are some strategies that would be welcomed by women tired of hearing “advice” that places responsibility solely on women rather than sharing it with men.
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That is some lowbrow victim blaming. Let people who know that of which they speak share and those who do not sit down and listen. The OP was clear in that her first assault occurred during childhood. Should children be better prepared to “protect themselves”? The onus of responsibility lies on the assailant alone.
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The sex education class was in the spring term of 10th grade? Way back in ancient history, in 1964, my school began sex education in fall term of 7th grade, i.e., the very first term of the school's jurisdiction.
People who have been properly educated at home and in school, regardless of gender, will understand that consent means consent and will act properly on that understanding.
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@JR: I'm 67 and when I took sex ed consent was never mentioned. At all.
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This column is the truth that no one wants to face, that many of the commenters can’t bear to face. Women don’t get assaulted because they’re not careful and men don’t accidentally rape. Both men and women are trained at an early age to take men’s desires, needs, and feelings more seriously than women’s. And when it comes down to it, sometimes that ends in men violating women because they wanted something.
All of the shouting and drama about false accusations is just a way to avoid responsibility: the responsibility of men publicly accused and the responsibility to reflect on one’s own actions. Believing the victim isn’t just a correction of social norms; it’s an acknowledgment of the likely truth. But until men can face their actions, there will be more Trumps and Kavanaughs in high places. They are the id of the American man. The rest of us are waiting for them to grow up.
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@Blueinaredstate - well said. Serious consequences for their actions is the only thing that would restrain this behaviour in this type of man. The 'metoo' kind of response has effected their livlihoods - Ok so now we have your attention.
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@Blueinaredstate
There are bad men, just as there are bad women, but this kind of attitude about men is personal, not global. Fortunately, the vast majority of women don't believe men are dangerous babies who seek to do harm to women. Because that just isn't a reasonable, healthy and honest way to look at the world.
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@Blueinaredstate i missed that training from where was i supposed to have gotten it
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I wonder if perhaps there is also a problem in how women are socialized to say yes even when reluctant. I’ve never dated a man, but in my first relationship, there were multiple occasions where I felt that I “couldn’t say no” to my girlfriend or she just started in doing things without asking me first.
We have to socialize boys to actually consider women’s feelings, and we have to teach little girls that there is nothing wrong with saying no so that they don’t realize too late that a reluctant yes isn’t really a yes at all.
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@Kate B. Imagine if all girls were comfortable saying, "I don't want you to touch me like that/at all/there." We must help girls learn that it is okay to say no even when that "No" might hurt someone's feelings. It is one thing for a boy or man to read silence as tacit consent. It is another to ignore a girl or woman saying, "Get your hands off me."
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Start when they’re young. I cringe every time I see a small child being told to kiss or hug a relative even after saying they didn’t want to. Tell them it’s OK, and that it’s perfectly fine to say no.
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@ERT
So true, this is how the conditioning begins. I think this is especially true of the conditioning girls undergo.
It should be kept in mind that a child who refuses to kiss or hug an adult may already be the victim of that adult. Refusing to publicly kiss or hug someone goodbye or hello could be a cry for help.
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When I was in college, I was getting physical with a young man who was giving me mixed signals. He was saying nothing, no words, but his body language showed me he was clearly uncomfortable. We were both sober and it was obvious to me that he was probably a virgin. I was not a virgin and at first assumed he wanted me to show him how to have sex.
Eventually I realized that he was actually scared and ambivalent. I was able to perceive this without words being said. I pulled away and said "I think we need to stop now". I waited to see his reaction. He was clearly relieved and immediately got up and so did I.
That encounter helped me understand that the man who raped me when I was a virgin, who pretended he had no idea I didn't want to do it, even though I was squirming to get away and screaming NO! NO! was just a bully who wanted his way. Before my encounter with the guy in college, I had blamed myself for somehow not being clear enough about refusing consent. In college I finally I understood it isn't that hard to figure out when a person is not giving consent.
In my opinion, mixed signals or ambivalence mean you stop and say When you're fully ready to do this, we'll try again. But I can tell that right now you are not really ready...
I gave the guy in college the chance to have a great experience his first time whenever he was ready at some time in the future. I wish I had had that chance....
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@sfdphd How about NOT getting with the person at all. Why wait for "mixed signals" and "ambiguity?" What about NOT getting into the situation at all?
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Sfdphd:
I was that guy - maybe not your guy - but I fooled around plenty before getting married 8 years after college when I had traditional sex for the first time. I don’t know if I was scared of sex, rejection, getting someone pregnant, or all of it.
But reading your comment it struck me that not a single girl I was with insisted we have the real thing, no matter how close we got, no matter how long the relationship. No one ever said yes; no one ever said no. Verbal communication was never part of the equation.
Now I’m happily married for over 25 years with three grown up kids. I actually have no idea what their doing, and I’m afraid to even think about it.
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@Elizabeth Moore
Oh, you mean abstinence? Don't have sex at all? Save it for marriage? That's not very realistic, is it? Nor very healthy. Those days are gone, and they're not coming back.
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Could colleges make it easier for young people to avoid situations for which they are not ready? Most seventeen-year-olds are not adults. In the past, women lived in separate dorms and often had curfews at least for the first two years. To avoid sexism, the men could have curfews too. Of course, the young will say they hate this. However, a curfew provides an excuse for young people who want to get away and don't feel comfortable saying so. It also would give people less time in which to get drunk. (The wilder kids found ways around the curfew system, but there was no pressure to do so.) At any rate, current customs seem to invite the very situations that many people want to avoid.
The author raises an interesting and important idea: that boys will behave badly, contrary to their professed values, when physically involved with a girl. The solution to this is much better sex education. For all boys. And girls. Role-playing, discussing what each person was thinking during a sexual encounter, would be eye-opening. Drill it deep into their young, impressionable minds.
In addition to teaching boys to better understand what girls are thinking, and how to behave better, girls need to learn to be more assertive. To not just "go along" with it and do what the boy wants. Girls need to have the strength to say no, to not give in to pressure, and to leave if they don't like what's happening.
It seems crazy that 40-50 years after the women's liberation movement, our culture has not evolved so much regarding sex and cultural norms. It takes 2 to tango, and both boys and girls need to be taught how to better manage their sexual interactions. Unfortunately America still has backward attitudes about sex, so this will be hard to change.
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@Eric
Extensive sex education that involves role playing and
other exercises to increase awareness of self and others has the potential to change student approaches to life, and in such a way that parents might not approve. Role playing could be seen as a gateway to sexual activity, and the best way to avoid the danger is to avoid the whole matter.
Sex education removes students from the authority of their parents by giving them materials and their own thinking to be their authority. Students have a right to guidance to make their decisions on these matters, even guidance that will give them other perspectives than those of their parents. But some parents will resist; it will violate their beliefs and values.
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@Eric
I am surprised that a relatively high number of readers agree with your conclusion that "both" boys and girls (also men and women?) need to be taught to better manage their sexual interactions.
These years, being "true" to progressive agenda one should never, ever in any way and degree blame or find room for improved behavior in both (or whatever number of) sexes or genders.
Remember, it is actually easy: The guilty party is hetero man of majority population.
Then to a great extent, Mothers of Feminism, advised us that, after all, "Woman needs a man as fish needs a bike". So, any by Mother Evolution driven desire of males involving females and their bodies is more or less, but virtually always a "violence".
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@Eric Yes, an important idea but it is poorly argued and not put in a larger context.
2
What seems to be missing in the subject of consent is whether you want an "enthusiastic yes" or a plain "no" millions of American young women (because by 30 this is not typically an issue in relationships) are not capable of saying either. While I am extremely concerned about boys/men understanding consent - I am equally concerned with girls/women being comfortable saying "YES!" or "NO!" The Aziz Ansari piece illustrated to me how incapable so many women are like the author of saying "No! thanks for a great (or not so great) night" and leave. Or in the endless cases of high school kids - where I keep waiting to hear a teenager say "No!" and leave. Yet they don't. And I don't think it's then fair to expect men to be mindreaders in the endless unspoken codes of dating, sex and courting. I'm a feminist - and still willing to concede date situations are a lot more grey than the #metoo makes it seem. We cannot have an individualized subjective standard of consent. How can anyone know that? That's why we must "use our words" whether it's a yes or no - but clear communication is key. I'd tell a son if there isn't leave - and I'd tell a daughter - say what you mean clearly. Sex should be much easier to talk about than it is in our society - and not just consent - but the fun and the responsibility of it!
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@Dana
Additionally, when either partner has been drinking, as is often the case in these situations, they are less likely to be able to communicate clearly and effectively or exercise good judgment, irrespective of gender.
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Thank you, Dana for being even-handed and objective. I'm an overprotective dad over young daughter but I totally agree with you.
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@Dana
I was born in 1972, female, and raised in the United Kingdom. I don't remember this conundrum you speak of. My dates were always aware of my feelings towards sexual advances. They respected them and I knew how to voice them. My guess is that all Americans need to have sex education and include consent in that prior to the age when teenagers are actually doing this. I had this education in the 1980's. I still read articles in US media pushing back against this. Furthermore, parents need to teach their boys and girls about this too. Don't just teach your girls not be be raped, teach your boys not to be rapists.
81
Interview a couple, generalize a lot.
Profitable livings are to be made.
2
Here’s where I disagree:
You’ve revealed the problem in your very own essay:
“researchers at Confi, an online resource dedicated to women’s health issues, asked 1,200 college students and recent graduates nationwide what they would “expect to happen next” if they went home with someone whom they’d met and danced with at a party. “
That women aren’t informed of the common sense conclusion that going to someone’s house implies private sexual behavior puts the onus of unawareness clearly on girls, and the sad fact that they unfortunately have been mis-parented enough to not know this.
A trump nominee last week stated something along the lines of : “the common sense knowledge that when a woman drinks excessively she has put herself in greater likelihood of being assaulted.”
Putting aside what anyone thinks of Trump, this woman said the most obvious of obvious and yet the left had issue with it.
Maybe you are not completing the story here, and including parents and women’s responsibility to explain the world accurately to them, because if the above isn’t accurate and common sense then nothing is.
Stop being worried about “giving an inch” and start protecting girls by telling them how reality works and where their responsibility lies (in particular the parents) as to how reality will work when they are not responsible.
No the world is not utopia
Predators lurk.
Let’s keep our girls smart, and understanding where their responsibility begins.
5
It sounds to me as of Orenstein is saying that we need more open and compassionate conversations with adolescents--which we could do through appropriate sexual education programs in schools. Sure we can take a little time away from the reproductive narrative of the presentation and engage students in discussing images in popular culture and how they differ from real life.
Current pornography alone is bizarrely dehumanizing, and we all know they see it on the internet. They could use some help developing critical thinking skills so that when they get to a real life situation they are not relying on what they have inadvertently absorbed as spectators.
The Danish do it. Sex education that includes the human dimension to our anatomy would help us at least *try* to nurture healthier approaches.
1
Communication, consent, generalization, gender bias—confusion. From reading the article and the comments, I feel a need to step away from the argument and ask a basic, human, gender-free question: Who is responsible for one’s pleasure? Who is assumed to be responsible for someone else’s pleasure? Biologically viewed, the assumption favors the male. Culturally, it seems hard—but not impossible— to move beyond that.
2
Men are not all guilty and women are not all innocent. Neither is perfect and both cross the same line.
Our society is obsessed with and repressed by sex. Sexual images are projected constantly, provocative behavior is encouraged in dress, social situations, media, etc. yet we seem to think the constant barrage does not influence real world expectations. There is fantasy and there is reality. They don’t always mesh in a one-on-one relationship.
Did anyone stop, as I did when reading this article, and ask themselves why would a woman put herself in a potentially questionable situation by going to a man’s place or inviting a man to their place without considering an expectation was being set? It is not an innocent situation no matter how much we rationalize.
Think about the signals either sex sends (or not) when meeting someone. There is work appropriate attire, for example. Is the same true in social situations where attracting a partner is one of the objectives? It’s not just about “fashion”. Do I need to point out most women’s fashion are designed by men and the designs are promoted to allure. They do a very good job. This is not an area to blame men, by the way. Nobody is is forcing women to follow.
The point here is so much of our society is about sex in one form or another. Separating that fantasy from what anyone perceives as reality is difficult. Neither men nor women do it well. Both are innocent and guilty at the same time. Responsibility is mutual.
9
So, first no meant no--you were supposed to respect a woman's statement of lack of interest. Then (only) yes meant yes--you cannot proceed at any step without the woman's explicit approval. Now not even yes means yes if the woman has internal doubts about it, even if she doesn't communicate them.
Oh, and even actions that were OK under prior regimes are wrong if they change the rules on you later.
Know what consent is? I always applied the standards of the day, with additional restraint--even in the no-means-no era I would hold back and double-check if the woman didn't seem happy about it. Now I discuss what they are willing to do beforehand and check in regularly, reminding them of prenegotiated safewords at regular intervals.
I still don't know what consent is. And even if I did, I couldn't be sure you wouldn't change it on me after the fact.
3
@J. You’re right, that does sound like a lot to keep in mind, almost as much as what women have always had to keep in mind: what are my clothes saying/should I go home this way or that way/I’d better not drink/what if I make him angry, etc.
And I suspect, like with pornography, you really do know consent when you see it?
@Concordata I don't assume I know anything, which is why I check in regularly.
And you know, you're right about the things women have had to worry about. But after hundreds of these articles from the NYT about how evil I am and how nothing is ever good enough, I care a lot less.
There are good men out there, and plenty of them. I'm not talking about men who think they are good or who you thought were good until they started talking to you. I'm talking about plenty of actual good men out there.
10
You can change culture, but you can't completely change human nature. There will always be interactions that cause one or both people to walk away feeling uncomfortable with what happened. It happens to men too. We are all individuals with different expectations and sensitivities, so we react differently. An experience that cause one woman to feel terrible might have little effect on another.
Just because somebody feels uncomfortable doesn't mean somebody else did something shameful or criminal. Just because somebody is fearful doesn't mean there is actual danger. Yes, men need to understand that their behavior is their responsibility, but women need to understand that their feelings are theirs. That's what being an adult is, and the people Orenstein writes about haven't gotten there yet. Some people never do.
9
@J.C.
Bingo! There is a very, very strong biological component to the nuanced dance women and men play when pairing up physically, and there are likely elements to this drama that we don’t yet fully understand.
Calling rape “rape “ is good public and moral policy. Calling ambiguous and messy sex “rape “ is treating women and men like robots without agency.
2
With all the statistics in the column, I wish the author had included data on two additional items:
1)when was alcohol involved--we have laws about driving while intoxicated because it impair you--the same is true with consent--at a certain point one can neither give consent or judge if consent is given.
2)what was the timing--not to sound to much like a sunday school teacher--but how about no sex after 8pm--if they look good late at night, they will look good the next day
Sex is fraught. Sex is a tension of opposites. This essay seems to argue that we can remove the uncertainty and ambiguity in sexual relations. That is simply never going to happen. It represents the mistaken crypto-gnostical notion that we must transcend human nature.
16
@jim kunstler
I disagree. I thought this was a very candid look at sexual behavior as it is. Sex and talking about sex has been uncomfortable and fraught since the beginning of humankind. It's interesting to see that as the definition of abuse changes so does the definition of consent. The pushback I'm seeing in the comments section is that some people (men) are uncomfortable that they've lost the lead in controlling the narrative of consent.
Our society has never truly condemned male sexual behavior. It has always put the responsibility and consequences for any sexual encounter on the female. Women are taught to submit socially, intellectually and sexually. Girls and women are reluctant to say "no", to offend the person they find attractive, to risk "losing" him.
We are at the beginning of the road to true sexual equality and a lot of men are reluctant or even hostile to the journey. Open discussion, social disdain and ostracism, legal action are some of the steps we will need. After centuries of denial, spousal rape was finally recognized as a crime in 1979-progress is possible.
18
@Maureen Steffek This may have been true up to the 1950s, but today? Come on....it is a much different world out there, where in most cases women call the shots.
"Young men still too often learn (...) to interpret a partner’s behavior through the lens of their own wishes"
This is psychology 101. *Humans*, all of them, regardless of sex and gender interpret any human behavior through the lens of their wishes.
For instance, many girls/woman manage to convince themselves that some guy is deeply in love with them even when all evidence (and advice) points to him just wanting to score.
In French we even have an idiom to illustrate that : "Chacun voit midi à sa porte" which roughly translates to "Everyone sees noon from his porch". The meaning of the idiom is that everyone sees the world as shaped by his perspectives and interest (the expression originates from a time when people had their own sundial in front of their porch. With the inaccuracy of position two neighbors could see noon at different times from their front door).
15
Here we see what the sexual revolution has wrought. Perhaps women should resort back to the old tried and true method: no sex until marriage. Of course that rule was mostly honored in the breach anyway, but it would surprise a lot of people how often it was not.
I grew up during the sexual revolution of the 60s and didn't marry until the late 80s. Women of my age were more active and willing in those days because the pill gave them them the assurance that pregnancy would not result. Feminism was demanding equality with men and that also meant sexual equality. Many women were sexually experimenting with multiple partners. It was a different time. The rules still applied, as a man you didn't force yourself on someone, but it was a much freer time.
Most of the people I went to a highly-rated college with married their college sweethearts and are still married-- if they are still alive.
I am a widower. My wife died two years ago after having a stroke 9 years ago and becoming severely disabled. I took care of her all that time. We had a a good marriage for 25 plus years. I am finally dating a twice-divorced woman who is gun shy because of two bad marriages and hasn't slept with me for the 4 months we've been dating. I am fine with that. I call her my "born-again virgin."
A lot of political, moral and cultural changes introduced in the 60s have not lived up to their billing and have merely exacerbated tension between the sexes and the races.
16
@Dougal E
"Here we see what the sexual revolution has wrought."
No. Sexual violence is as old as time, and is not a product of the sexual revolution. Sexual violence is not about desire, but about power. It is a taking and a using of another's body, which is antithetical to sexual intimacy, and more analogous to theft. Men who believe themselves entitled to whatever they want are the problem, not women who are freer to be sexual than in times past.
As for your concluding paragraph, once again, progress in racial and gender equality is not responsible "tension between the sexes and the races". Resistance to progress from whites and from men is the only problem. They and they alone must adapt if tension is to be reduced.
3
@Suzanne I see: "whites" and "men" are the "only" problem.
Sex is inherently dangerous on many levels and that is is why it is so mysterious and wonderful when willing partners lose each other in each other. Men have the responsibility for initiating seductions and must deal with being repeatedly turned down. Failure can be crushing, but they must persevere.
Men are more aggressive in sex because that is their job. Procreation, i.e. survival of the species, depends on men being attracted to women, persuading them to marry, and being faithful to their wives and children. All this talk about masculinity being toxic and all heterosexual relations being the same as rape is subversive to relations between sexes (as is sexual violence perpetrated by the few.) When you make young men fearful of initiating sex, you aren't doing civilization a favor.
The belief that ours is a culture of rape originates on campuses where you have young men and women who commingle after drinking too much and suffer the result. Mix that in with militant feminism and other political enthusiasms of the day on campus, and the big picture becomes further skewered. Celebrity men who exploit their wealth and position to live promiscuous and predatory lives-- you know, like Bill Clinton-- become symbols of all men in this narrative and it's patently unfair to the vast majority of men who are respectful of women, especially young men just starting to commingle with women of legal age.
It is important not to conflate "wrong"with "assault". In any relationship, sexual or otherwise, things happen without full enthusiastic participation of both partners. That is the nature of relationships and all activities involving more than an individual. We need to disentangle ourselves from the notion that sexual interactions are an entirely unique category requiring perfect consent. Where relenting or compromising equals being victimized. A notion that cannot be separated from the idea that sex is ultimately shameful. It should be noted that many women are raised to believe that enthusiastic participation in sex is inappropriate or sinful.
When we understand this, people can be empowered to leave encounters and relationships when their partner disregards their wants without feeling sullied, ashamed or victimized if some of those wants were sexual. And to identify coercion and assault, sexual or otherwise, when it occurs.
And then there is biology. Unless we acknowledge and normalize biological urges, we are not going to be able to overcome them. Males benefit, from a biological perspective (passing on genes) when they successfully mate with females, with or without consent. So, no doubt some aggression is built in. This is not "bad", it is what it is. But, this can and should be changed. That is what civilized society is about- protecting its' members from biology. However, calling biological urges "bad", or criminalizing them, is not enough to do so.
22
Amen! And that's coming from a protective Dad of a young daughter. God bless you.
4
To say “women should just say no” is to largely misunderstand how much women are trained to tie their happiness with the joy of those around them, and that women can have a hard time parsing when they feel when feelings are swarming the room. I compare it to a radio signal. You can catch various channels, but you are trained to hear some louder and some to barely register.
Women are taught to not tune the dial to their signal, and to hear the male signal very loudly. So when the night with a man gets intense, all you hear is the man’s satisfaction and wants. The little fuzzed channel coming in saying “Oh no, this is so humiliating/uncomfortable/exposing me” is inaudible over the noise. So the woman does not express her needs, because she doesn’t hear it. She is hearing him say that this is great, that we are having a great time, and she feels good about that. A nagging dread is ignored until she is alone and can clearly hear her thoughts.
The real solution is to allow for the female channel to come through more loudly. To encourage it, respect it, listen to it, give time for it to get stronger. To turn down the volume some on male wants, because that signal is overbearing. It’s a journey for both sexes but well worth it for those brave enough.
19
@F Brilliantly put. Thank you.
I don't even know how we arrived at the situation we now find ourselves in with respect to consent. Of course, I'm old now but back in the late 1960's when I was a young teen, the thought of rejection terrified me. My first encounter with a member of the opposite sex was with the girl I'd been kissing for months and we didn't have any conversation about it. It was the first time for both of us. She invited me over to her home when her parents would be out for the night and it just happened. As time went on we experimented and learned what we both liked and to this day I remember it as a wonderful, tender and magic experience. Although we eventually moved on we stay in touch to this day. I have no recollection of anyone ever forcing sex on an unwilling partner back in those days although I'm sure it took place. And this was the age of free love and women's liberation. I believe mutual respect is now absent from today's atmosphere in the context of sexual interaction. Who want's to be intimate with someone that isn't sure about it? As a young man the fear of rejection left and I've since been very fortunate in relationships with women but I think it's because I just never presumed anything. Women can send the signals when they're interested and you just kind of go from there. Respect has to be earned by both involved so it's probably best if everyone just slows down and no one assumes anything. Education in that area would go a long way in addressing this issue.
14
@Robert Westwind. Mutual respect is now absent? This is not a question of women and girls not respecting men. This is about failure of men and boys to accept our limits, and to use pressure and manipulation to engage in sex. Respect for women, and all aspects of our sexuality has rarely existed. How many times does a girl or woman have to say "no, I'm not ready", "no, I don't feel that way yet", or "no, you're still dating other people", etc. While nobody wants to be rejected, girls grow up with warnings about our sexuality, about getting pregnant (for most of us it's still unwanted outside marriage) and very legitimate fears of being raped. And often we are told it was because we were too much this or not enough that. Many women, myself included, never accepted a date with a man without first askeding ourselves "would he rape me" or some variation. I have ended dates abruptly (once with a medical student) when I began to feel unsafe. What you recollect? How many of your friends admitted sexually assaulting their dates the night before? I was raped. My sister was raped. And we were the stereotypical "nice girls". Taking a quick tally of all my female friends, I would guess that 30% have been raped and over 50% have experienced some form of sexual assault.
That is great in as far as it goes. Females have to share in the problem because some of the things they do is lead-in to the problem.
The problem with Patriarchy is that men don't often have the opportunity to realize what it is to be in a position where they must comply to one single person who is stronger, bigger, and less entitled (more vulnerable if you would rather) than they are. They may experience it when they are boys in school, but most women experience their entire lives. That is because Patriarchy demands a woman's submission in all things to the male.
While we are progressing to a social system where everyone is equal in their rights there will still be pockets of Patriarchy.
As long as religions continue teaching Patriarchy we are going to have the same problems we have always had that stem from Patriarchy.
Parents must teach their sons that they are no more entitled that any other human; not just girls. Parents must teach their daughters that they are no more entitled and no less entitled than any other human; not just boys. That comes from learning to respecting one's self and being able to envision the future.
Thinking children will learn behaviors naturally is a workable solution. A child will never learn that responsible behavior is what leads to respectability for what is correct behavior from another child. An Responsible Respecting adult must do that and start from day 1.
2
I think a large part of the problem is that the sexual natures of women, generally speaking, and the sexual natures of men, generally speaking, are not only fundamentally different but fundamentally incompatible. The problem of consent versus coercion could be solved if we lived in a theoretical sexual utopia in which one could have sex with whoever one wants to have sex with whenever one wants to have sex with that person. If such an option were available, I'm certain that most of the world's men would say, "sign me up!" And I'm equally certain that most of the world's women would say "No thanks!" That, I think illustrates the problem, which is that our species - like most vertebrate species - operates, by nature, on the model of "female choice," in which men are required to woo females and compete with other men for them. It is the female who chooses. This model confers a "seller's market" sexual power on women at the expense of men. I suspect that sexism, partriarchal culture and male sexual violence constitute at least in part a male rebellion against this model. The problem is that, in nature, the sexual pattern is fundamentally unfair to men. But, of course, sexism, patriarchal culture and the notion of "male entitlement" are fundamentally unfair to women. Other species don't seem to have these sorts of problems. Ultimately, I think that intelligence, as an adaptive trait, itself is incompatible with the sexual natures we have inherited from our forebears.
12
Ms. Orenstein's argument is persuasive, but I hope there is room for nuance. I speak as an old guy who looks back at being a young guy with some perspective, and if I am permitted, sympathy. For a young male, let's say age 16 to 25, sexual encounters were exciting but fraught. We were desirous, but nervous and uncertain, and we were interacting with an alien species we did not well understand. Express consent would have seemed almost embarrassingly contractual to young men and perhaps also young women. We did not have the benefit of Molly Bloom announcing "Yes I said Yes I will Yes."
8
@Phil Korb You were not interacting with an alien species, but fellow human beings. There cannot be nuance when the consequences are rape and sexual assault.
I hear what you're saying, truly. For those of us who have acted in ways that are today considered unacceptable (and actually were then too, at least by most women), there is a desire to be excused and forgiven, and even to be told it was fine. But I urge you to move past that, and accept that we have - finally, thank God - entered a new paradigm. I also ask that you consider it is now the job of men like you and me to enthusiastically support this shift, regardless of what it means for our own sense of ourselves and our past. Let's evolve, please.
15
I have a personal approach to the issue that probably won't be to everyone's taste.
I have never had sex. (I'm a 47 year old heterosexual male).
It's not that I have no interest (it sounds like fun, at least in the abstract) but as a man, I am acutely aware of the behaviour of many women in social situations. Time and again, when engaging in friendly conversation with a woman, I begin to notice a change in their body language, a shift in their engagement in the conversation. It's almost as if they are bracing themselves for the inevitable next stage in our interaction; waiting for me to interpret their friendliness towards me as a green light to make a move on them.
I can almost taste the apprehension on their part, and it's horrible. I feel like a monster, and I want to say "Don't worry; you have nothing to fear from me. I will NEVER do anything." (I think a lot of my female acquaintances just assume I'm gay. I'm not.)
Part of the problem, I think, is that there still seems to be a common idea floating around: sex is something that men do to women; something that women have done to them. Intellectually, I know that is not the case, but in my mind, I cannot rid myself of the feeling that ALL sex is assault.
I will never do that to another person. That would be awful, and I can't imagine getting any pleasure out of it. How can anyone think such a thing is permissible?
No one's life will be destroyed if I don't have sex with them.
Better to just keep it to myself.
4
@Shawm
That seems so sad to me.
1
@Shawm: I so appreciate your honesty and your unusual viewpoint. Thank you.
1
@Shawm
I wish more priests felt that way!
Having interviewed a number of people engaging in causal “hook up” sex the author doesn’t bother to question the moral character of such people beyond picking on this question of consent. What if the real problem is the hook up itself? What if the mindset which has disconnected the act from the emotion is the real problem? Perhaps those inclined to “hook up” are already so morally compromised as to lack the ability to assess the character of their actions.
If the goal is to make casual / anonymous hooking up more safe and satisfying then I think we have missed the nature of the problem.
14
@Neildsmith
Are you saying only people having emotionallly committed sexual relationships are worthy of respect and the expectation of consent? That the “morally compromised” who maybe just engage in some mutually pleasurable activity are incapable of good judgement? Sure sounds like it.
1
"Yet when asked to describe their own most recent encounters in both a hookup and in a relationship, even men who claimed to practice affirmative consent often had not."
No one has sex that way; it is a mad bureaucrat's ideal of love, one in which candlelight dinners are replaced by forms in triplicate.
When they confuse the knowing and evil actions of the Cosbies, Kavanaughs, and Weinsteins of the world with sex as it has always occurred, fanatics like Ms. Ornstein end up criminalizing every man in existence. And then when the genuine abuses occur, both men and women react with skepticism and we end up with the kind of situation faced by Christine Blasey Ford.
The solution to sexual abuse is not to so extend the definition of abuse that we criminalize every boy, but to stop giving a pass to men like Donald Trump and organizations like the Catholic Church that really do cross the line into sex without consent.
30
@Josh Hill I used to ask my partner for affirmative consent , when this suddenly became the so-called standard, and she found it hilarious. Then old and annoying. Committed relationships don't work this way.
3
@Wonderer
Exactly.
As this article indicates and many of the young men quoted affirm, in social situations some men are examining every action a woman takes and assssing if it is a green light on the roadway to sexual activity, regardless of whether or not a woman has actually imbued her responses with that level of meaning. This core mental model among men needs to be rewired if we ever expect new patterns of behavior to become the norm.
6
Whenever I read articles like this, I feel grateful and lucky with the men I have been intimate with. If they got that far with me, they were all respectful. With one young man I dated, he was very clear about consent even 2 decades ago. On some occasions, we shared a bottle of wine and before/ while he proceeded, he simply asked how I was feeling and whether I was comfortable. The few times I said no or I wanted to stop/ sleep, he simply stopped. No pressure. My advice is for women to communicate clearly but to also pick the right guys. Sure, you can't always tell but don't go out with someone merely because they are handsome, popular, wealthy, etc. without assessing their character.
28
@Cornflower Rhys I don't perceive the article as portraying all men to be the same. I also don't think the article was intended to be the final word on the subject. As a alumni advisor, I work with young men at my alma mater. It is helpful to me to know that people perceive consent differently and that many men engage in behavior that runs afoul of their own values. The latter realization could be an amazing learning opportunity.
Are there good men out there? Of course. Nothing in the article says there aren't.
6
@Brian "I also don't think the article was intended to be the final word on the subject."
It seems very much like it does. The article takes one study--administered by a sociologist, relying on her interpretation of qualitative data, so not much of a study at all--and on that basis concludes that we should not treat men's denials as credible. That's how this piece closes.
I think men and women, upon reaching sexual maturity and navigating the mating arena, have different views on sex. I'll put it broadly and bluntly. Men need women for 20 minutes, to have their fun. Women need men for 20 years, to help raise the child that is the possibility of every sexual encounter. This is a generalization that does not, by a long shot, apply to every instance. But for me it encapsulates the difference between men and women in perceiving the stakes of intimacy. Women seem to be more reticent than men to engage in sex in a casual way. Men have a powerful drive to "score." Different men handle this differently, based on empathy, upbringing, inebriation and a multitude of factors. Not all men are monsters, but I think most men would push the line of consent in some situations. Not all men find themselves in those situations, and they can say they would never do so. But some guys get desperate, and desperation happens (see the incel community), others feel entitled. Whatever the reason, men often find the need to try and coerce a woman into sex. This seems to be the gray area. I am not trying to justify coercion, but lets acknowledge it. And maybe by understanding when it's likely to happen we can better educate young men and women on how to handle fraught stuations.
11
Ms. Ornstein has succinctly quantified the symptoms but stops short of diagnosing a problem. Yes, men have been known to prioritize their pleasure over women's feelings, but why? Her explanation sounds far too simplistic to me. I suspect that the true culprit lies deeper in the male psychology, down into the very nature of the sex act itself: aggression. Heterosexual relations are at their core aggressive. Even the most passive, peaceful and calm Tantric sex involves penetration, the most basic sex act and nakedly aggressive even in this context. Men are not taught to control the balance between the aggressive sexual desires inherent to the species and the limits that must be placed on them in the civilized world. Rather, they are simply told to do so. Most men will struggle with this balance at some point in their lives. Rather than castigate them as criminals, we should acknowledge that the struggle is one to which they were born. We should educate young men on how to recognize excessive sexual aggression, that it is more complex than they realize, and how to channel their aggression into positive actions and constructive behaviours that contribute to healthy sexual relationships.
20
Many comments here say, “not all men are like this.” But that is why articles that reveal women’s experiences with men are necessary: because men are going to help change the culture. If enough men recognize what happens to the women they know, maybe they will talk to each other differently, maybe the conversation and culture will change.
Of course not all men are like this—but if there are enough men that are, to the point that many women have encountered coercive or non consentual sex, then please don’t get defensive, but listen and help change the culture.
17
I wonder how much advertising/marketing and Hollywood has contributed to this problem by implanting visuals and sexual activities.
The drivel of male fantasy woven into the script (I often overhear movies my husband is watching), and the alluring magazine covers for women (while of course offering diet tips and yummy chocolate cake recipes) appear to replicate the disconnections mentioned in the article.
11
@AM Murphy, have you seen what is two clicks away from anyone who has access to a smart phone or laptop? Those marketing techniques are 1950's stuff compared to the free and easily accessed porn today!
I found the article very interesting and informative. I did not perceive the author as painting men unfairly with a broad brush or relieving women of responsibility. Every article about problematic sexual encounters doesn't have to engage in both-sides-ism. It's appropriate and fair for an article to examine one side of the encounter.
16
@Brian
It doesn't bother you that "men" are addressed as a single, monolithic entity? Bothers me. I know lots of men who would understand very clearly what consent is and isn't and who treat women with respect.
7
@Brian
However, the author does not ascribe any blame to women in the sense that many women, especially if they have been drinking, become sexually aggressive -- their actions similarly could be construed as indecent A&B. But since we have a double-standard, a guy who would go to the police to report that a woman grabbed him by the crotch would be laughed at. Also, the author does not acknowledge that many women lie to assert their power over men. Yes, there are many men who are monsters, i.e., sociopaths like Weinstein, but there are just as many (if not more) women with borderline personality disorder and other mental health issues whose accusations of alleged impropriety can prove just as destructive to a man's life.
This is a gender-prejudiced analysis, and because of this it misses the point.
Clear communication, and expectation of such, requires both sides.
11
@Colin Communication is inherently ambiguous, which is why one should err on the side of caution. If a woman says, "I don't want to, but I guess I'll let you", careful analysis might uncover two things: clear statement of non-volition and a placating or softening strategy. The latter is typical of "female speech" and the speech of non-dominant roles.
If you're not in a frame of mind where you can hear or interpret such utterances, then you'd better allow a little cooling off until either (1) things get clear and consensual or (2) you get clear that it's not going to happen.
To put it another way, proceed with the expectation that you're NOT going to have sex until you have clear indications to the contrary.
11
@Colin not gender prejudiced, gender focussed. The writer is taliking about male coercion of women in a “normal’ social environment. There is lots she didn’t talk about, priests and children, soldiers and prisoners, parents and relative and children. There is an argument that mothers and their parenting style, also sets up boys and their expectations of body ownership. Who among us haven’t had arms yanked, got a smack, maybe the grip is a little harder today, if the boy is being slow today. So while I respect your wish to totally flesh out this complex issue in 350 words, the writer is specifically discussing one particular aspect of sexual relationships. There is always another article.
6
@Edward Lindon
Wow, "female speech." In what country is such a vernacular native? So the man must both be in control of himself and in control of her 'real' meanings?
I wonder if there are other situations in which men and women have different assumptions by default. Consent to sex is a an example fraught with tension, impossible to discuss without accusations of male bashing. If we could detach the issue from notions of morality, it might be easier to relate to. People with both both sons and daughters have seen some differences at tender ages. People have seen in the workplace how men and women view their chances of, or rights to, credit or professional advancement. None of this is true for every boy/man and girl/woman, and may have more to do with nurture than nature.
3
Boys first learn about girls from by watching their fathers & mothers.
Men who treat women as equals, use actively listening, jointly make decisions and generally, show love and respect, will instill those behaviors in their sons. Boys also learn from observing how their mothers respond.
This early learning sets the foundation for how boys perceive and interact with girls.
While fathers providing good examples will alone not fix the consent issue, it will set expectations, default behaviors and an environment where meaningful consent is more likely.
14
I don't remember The Times ever discussing this issue before Donald Trump was President. Now, suddenly, it finds a way to make it a lead story every day. Is this really concern for women, or simply more politics?
5
@Mike Livingston it is hard to believe you have not noticed any of the hundreds of articles over the decades on this issue. Nothing sudden about this. Perhaps it is the clear unambiguous writing style, free of morality, and explicitly not excuse making. I don’t know your community, but in mine this is how serious people write.
22
@Mike Livingston As minimization strategies go, that one's pretty low. No, no-one thinks sexual assault and misconduct started with Donald Trump's ascendance to the throne. It's been going on forever, but some people have only just started listening.
Me-too-without-thinking seems to have fully morphed from a welcome series of revelations and reform efforts into a herd mentality that does "not know" what drinking to excess is, or false accusations are, or guilt by association can entail.
Enough is enough. A thousand male gender bashing articles later, it is time for some honesty and common sense.
The most effective way to confront the never completely erasable ambiguities of she-said vs he-said is by sensible prevention, and certainly not by never-ending ex-post wholesale rubbishing of basic ethics in the name of "new standards" of "education" or whatever.
17
This misses a fundamental of human sexuality, women rarely desire sex on first contact, men are usually nore easily aroused. Does consent need to be granted at the outset, or is some attempt at seduction persuasion if you like) allowed? Can that involve physical contact? If so of what type? If she is OK with holding your hand are you allowed to move in for a kiss? if rejected once, are you allowed to try again. At what point does this become harrassment? And what happens to flirtation, courtship and "playing hard to get"? These are also fundamental to human and animal sexuality.
There is much to negotiate, but the boundaries are obvious to most of us. Perhaps we just need a greater understanding of the other's sexuality rather than a more prescriptive definition of consent.
9
The assumption that women might be “playing hard to get” is a challenging one. It assumes a male interpretation, one that reads a “no” as ambiguous at best, and that her “no” does not, in fact, mean no. In other words, it privileges what the male partner thinks the woman means instead of what she is actually saying. Making this assumption could mean the male is actually engaging in exactly the thinking and behaviors in this article.
Listen to a partner, respect what the partner is saying, and don’t assume the partner means something other than what they are saying.
28
@dex
It seems to me that a "greater understanding of the other's sexuality" would start with a "more prescriptive definition of consent."
How does one address a problem without first recognizing what the problem is?
5
@Human: Excellent point. I think all that 'over-thinking' by men (she is saying no, but still flirting, she must mean yes, what if I don't do anything, she'll think I'm not a real man, but does she really, etc.) must be very confusing to them, to the woman, to the situation. A woman must make her desires known clearly, a man must believe her. That would end a lot of confusion.
But (there's always a but, isn't there?)....but so much of the culture now is centered around drinking, especially in college where freedom from the constraints of 'home' disappear. I worked with a rape crisis center for a few years in a college town and so many of the young women who came to us for help were raped by athletes (who were experiencing a national championship which intensified their entitlement status in their own viewpoint) and it always involved alcohol. No one can give any consent while under the influence of drugs/alcohol and much of the time don't even remember what happened. Not good for anyone, but especially for young women.
2
Sadly those perception gaps aren’t large enough to make any rules out of. A man can say that he assumed that the woman would have the same expectations, and in some cases he would clearly be right. Sigh.
Clearly we need some generally accepted moral rules. This is why we had rules about no sex before marriage.
We also need to discourage pornography that sets up wrong expectations.
7
Having watched hundreds of nature videos with my grandchildren, it is obvious that we men have inherited male animal entitlement and domination of females.
As animals with moral codes we men can and must learn to control that instinct.
(Are there any evolutionary, biological, psychological, and sociological studies of this phenomenon?)
7
@Abe Markman - excellent point. We are here on earth as humans because we were aggressively dominant.
1
@Abe Markman Rape is rare among animals, probably because females have a specific visual period in which they are ready and willing. In case of humans this is hidden.
1
"Additionally, one in four men believed women “usually have to be convinced” in order for sex to happen (only about a tenth of the women agreed)."
The thrust of the article about self-serving male suppositions is obviously true. However, that sentence above, as stated, contradicts it rather starkly. The article also fails to speak to the difficulty in navigating the now commonly propagated ideological misconception that "yes means yes" and "no means no," which is often not true in interactive life.
6
But what if it is true?
I would like to emphasize that the issue of consent goes in both directions. I know women who are strong proponents of explicit consent, but nonetheless presume in certain circumstances that men want to “go farther.” I even know some such women who have not accepted an explicit and repeated “no!”
11
@David D. and were they able to over-power you physically and take what they wanted anyway?
@Geraldine Mitchell
Overpowering is rape, a crime. We're talking about consent in social sexual relations, not crimes.
@Geraldine — An imbalance in physical strength can indeed have dire consequences when it comes to people who do not accept “no” for an answer; I have cried enough tears with friends who have been raped to need no lecturing on that point.
I was simply making the point that it is not always us men who inappropriately disrespect boundaries and that even female proponents of explicit consent sometimes make misjudgments.
Regardless of whether those boundaries are crossed by sheer strength, ambush, coercion, etc., such violations of a person’s comfort zone are not OK. We ALL need to be more sensitive of other people’s boundaries.
1
I'm an aging baby boomer who married late. In all my years as a single woman I NEVER met a man who wanted an unwilling partner. All the men I knew wanted a woman who wanted them, and whose actions made that clear.
This was not about politics, or feminism, or privilege, or conscious choice. It was a starkly sexual, physiological response on their part. I am mystified by the seeming change in men.
31
@Beth
My experience has been similar, in that the men I have known have cared deeply about mutually desireable sexual experiences.
Looking at history, however, it seems pretty clear that the "change" isn't that kids today care less about consent. A generation ago it was deemed impossible for a husband to rape a wife—that was just part of what was considered sex.
I think the right analogy might be child sexual abuse, or police shootings of black men: It's not that they're suddenly happening more, it's that they're only now being dragged into the light of the mainstream. Which is good.
41
@Beth I am also a baby boomer and my experience does not match yours.
There has been no change in men. The change has come in the prism through which historical interactions are viewed (as is the case with all history these days) and a change in the “rules” driven by Marxist or postmodern feminists. This phase, too, will pass and men and women will once again interacts civilly as the vast majority of us have done forever.
I'm curious how, as a healthy, normal heterosexual man, the concept of "scoring" was always off-putting to me. Even back in high school, when a guy would talk about it as if it was a game, I remember thinking "you think that's cool? It's not even fun if she isn't in to it as much as you are."
I certainly don't remember ever being taught to think this way, and I am MOST certainly not trying to come across as some moral goody-two-shoes. But either I missed some memo in growing up, or there are a lot of other men like me that aren't being mentioned in these discussions.
It just seems to me that if a person has some basic empathy for others, and respect for others, that you don't treat others as objects. This holds true in all interactions, and sex is no different. If the partners aren't mutually consenting, at all times, it's wrong.
104
@ImagineMoments
Same here. Totally agree. From a young age when I heard other boys talk about girls in that way I was repulsed and promised myself that I would never be that way.
22
@ImagineMoments: Both you and Ryan, who also responded to your comment, thought to yourself, "That ('scoring') was repugnant, wrong and you would never engage. But what you don't say is huge. You described thinking your response to yourself, you don't say it out loud to other guys. And until that changes, nothing will change. Until men, when in the presence of such demeaning behavior/language, push back and at least attempt to educate their lesser evolved brothers, nothing will change. It has to come from men. Men have to end Patriarchy in all it's forms.
8
@ImagineMoments
Where were you when I was growing up??
Folks, don't let pundits decide how you should explore emotional intimacy. Neither men nor women are monolithic categories as this author conservatively implies with misleading statistics and rhetoric. There are all kinds of people out there, myself included, who've had only healthy sexual encounters and not once was there a specific conversation about sex before hand. I'm grateful and lucky to have never been assaulted, but it wasn't because anybody demanded explicit consent-- it was because we implicitly nurtured the innate respect and desire we had for each other's well being and pleasure. Let's not forget that the lead-up to intimacy can be an organic process that doesn't necessarily require verbal consent. If your partner requires that, then respect to them.
There's no rulebook to intimacy, but we can teach our children to keep sacred the experience of exploring another human's body, and letting them explore theirs.
43
What most surprised me about the statistics cited here was that so many men and women DIDN'T expect sex to be on the table after going home with someone from a party. To me, that says we've actually made a lot of progress toward a better understanding of consent: in the minds of those surveyed, a clear majority would seem to believe sex isn't on the table unless you have a conversation about it, and both parties have agreed.
However, I wish the article had addressed that pre-determined consent still leaves room for a lot of gray areas. For instance, let's say you consented to one type of sexual act but not another, and your partner didn't ask you again in between. I think this is the type of "miscommunication" men are usually referring to: many men think everything is suddenly on the table once a woman has agreed to sex, but they might not know enough about her individual preferences or how far is too far to go without asking. Similarly, women often tacitly expect men to take the lead in initiating physical affection, and feel that forcing the man to ask for it ruins the mood or makes the man seem too shy or weak. We have to meet somewhere in the middle and acknowledge that both men and women too often operate based on assumptions and need to communicate more effectively, especially when the topic is something as important as consent.
29
@HC
I very much appreciate your comment.
Nonetheless,I think the 'what acts,exactly, are consented to' is a bit misleading. I am no expert, but I do study crime statistics. Most often, it is not the 'type' of sex act that is the issue; rather it is 'any sex acts at all.'
8
It is sad that young men of universities and colleges don’t understand or imagine the feelings of female students. I think it is the most important for young people to build good relationships with friends. Especially the ability to make good relationships with opposite sex will be developed naturally when they are children. It is essential that elementary or middle high school students should have more opportunities to communicate with opposite sex. Then they can understand or imagine the feelings of opposite sex much more when they become university students.
15
@Matsuda It is sad that people stick to using sweeping generalizations..
These are individuals, not "men", and the fix to the problem is on an individual level, not on a "men" level.
I noticed how many of these responses are very defensive - I think part of the overall problem is that many have a hard time just accepting the long overdue discussion of male responsibility. For all the decades when women were blamed for being raped (short skirts, being in the wrong place, etc.), were these same people thinking, "How unfair! We must look at male responsibility!" I tend to think not very many were standing up for balance and fairness.
This is an op-ed, essay length, not a lengthy tome. It specifically addresses recent research about male attitudes that should be eye-opening. The author is not discussing the entire subject - she cannot possibly cover all the points brought up in the comments. Why not simply react to the very important points she has brought up?
In graduate school, I started paying close attention to how entitled many men seem to feel, how they could barely stand to hear any kind of criticism, always bringing up third parties to deflect the sting, how much class time they spent voicing their opinions, interrupting women, speaking for them, becoming threatened if discussion focused on women's issues. Some of them had difficulty with reality, for example, boasting about their teaching abilities after I had overheard students talking about their less than perfect skills.
This is the kind of social orientation (or brainwashing) we need to uncover if we are going to change the overall dynamic, and not just about sexual violence.
119
Exactly - it’s an extension of how equality feels like oppression to the privileged. When your own wants and needs have long been prioritized over that of others, being told that others’ wants and needs are equally as important is met like an attack on your ‘right’ to make place yourself above others.
72
@filancia times
No, I think part of the overall problem is that many have a hard time just accepting the long overdue discussion of female responsibility.
4
@filancia times
Responsibility flows in both directions. The girl who says “I don’t want to, but I guess I’ll let you,” is responsible for allowing her partner to do something she didn't want to do.
While it certainly isn't my way, a man who persuades a woman to have sex is not guilty of rape.
3
". . . fully (educate) boys . . . about the ways their own sense of entitlement may (lead) them to cause harm . . . .
"In other words, we have to start dealing with the bear in the room."
Bears, like humans, come in two sexes, roughly. In a sexist regime, all sexes are complicit in their own victimization. That fact, difficult to acknowledge, is precisely why sexism is so pernicious and hard to root out.
Historically, women have been expected to guard their virtue even in the face of their own desires. It was the job of the man to overcome this guard by seduction, by coaxing, by orchestrating a symphony of mutual passion, so that the woman felt morally excused in expressing her own passions.
Anyone who doubts that this is still the case has only to look at the immense, worldwide popularity of romance novels, commonly known as "bodice rippers", largely written for women by women. Men, especially young men, feel the weight of this expectation. And they know as well, usually from experience, how confused and conflicted some women, especially young women, sometimes are about sex.
This problem is part of the fabric of sexism, and all sexes suffer by it, each in their own way. We're all bears of one kind or another. Some of us just don't know it.
28
I married many years ago and have no knowledge of modern date culture. However, it would seem to me to be common sense for both parties to agree on what will be acceptable if they return to one’s home. That should be the beginning of the consent conversation so neither is unpleasantly surprised when they are already alone.
10
As long as you ignore the fact that many men are acting - at least, in part - on a physiological response (and not making some wholly moral, social or intellectual judgment about consent), and therefore have less than complete control of their actions, you will never solve the problem.
19
@Jetski: and of course, violent people are also acting on their impulses... but we still prosecute them for assault.
Your point is not completely without merit, however. It highlights the need for clearer rules.
7
@Uncle Jetski this is a cop out. Every person has enough control over their physical actions to avoid raping someone else. Even if (some) men (sometimes) have less natural control (is this proven??) they can and must learn to exercise more control. It's possible. Many many good men never even come close to raping anyone.
2
@Uncle Jetski
So, males cannot control themselves? Better get them out of any positions of power or authority!
2
Again, the person who presumes to speak for what men know, and what men feel, is: a woman. No piece articulates the frustrations that men experience with women, who invariably wait for him to make the first move, and to suffer the pain of rejection.
This venue is relentless in its determination to present only women's recounting of sexual politics. No, it even denies that there is another way of looking at things.
75
These pieces are on a different level than you imply. This isn't a 'he said/she said' issue, and these opinion pieces aren't offering opinions about what males think, or how they act, or any of the myriad silly objections that men have raised.
The opinion here is about the proper way to address this issue. There isn't a lick of doubt about the nature of the issue itself; we have spent years defining its nature scientifically, and nothing we've derived has ever contradicted the personal impressions that the victims of primitive strategy exploits describe.
The scientific version misses the boat in addressing the scope of the emotional damage women suffer, but we're just like the rest of the population in that regard. We've plenty of our own experience to go around, more than many, but that's hardly relevant. Any contact with the human primitive strategy mating behaviors carries the specter of lifelong pain that most men will never grasp in an honest way.
We're working to change that, to communicate effectively exactly what underlies these problems, and to do it in a way that sticks regardless of gender. It's going to take a while longer, but we're already aboard for the long haul. Stay tuned; things are changing, and considering the subject, nobody with any sense will want to be left behind.
Pick the wrong horse in this race, and you'll never ride again. It's just the way it is, not a threat at all. The next step is going to break the primitive strategy for good. --T&K
10
@Wine Country Dude The article is full of the opinions of men, as recorded by researchers and recounted by, yes, a woman. The fact is that only fairly recently have we had a discussion of what consent actually means, and every time any woman suggests that perhaps the entitlement and willful ignorance of men might be to blame, comes a deluge of angry denials and “not all men” and the continued erasure of women’s experience. Even after centuries of sexual privilege, there are still a whole lot of men who simply cannot bring themselves to stop and listen and look honestly at their own behavior, even for a second — that is exactly what the research she describes was intended to get men to do.
21
@Wine Country Dude Surely there are at least fifty thousand pieces that properly articulate the terrible frustration that men experience with women and the horrible pain of rejection; of course, no one has written about the millions of rape victims, and the devastation to their lives. But it's basically the same thing, right?
8
No where in this article is love ever mentioned. Call me old fashioned, but this is what is lacking. Love and respect is so important and we need to get back to these basics.
37
@WPLMMT
Fortunately, or maybe unfortunately (depending on your point of view, I guess), sexual activity in our society is not viewed as always serious or a prelude to a long term loving relationship.
Sometimes it’s just for fun or to make a connection. Regardless of your point of view, the circumstances around having or not having sex are fraught and need discussion and clarity. And myriad stereotypes need to change.
2
Agreed. I see a lot of demands from all sides and very little real giving. This is not love.
1
Carrie pretty much summed it up. The majority of men are takers. Take, take, take, take, take, take.
Money equals power. The power to take what they want.
23
@Mary Culper - This comment is not the most lucid on the subject, but to the extent that the writer believes that female power will solve all problems and lead to a relaxing and pleasurable life, she will be happy to know that that power is coming.
While women still command any media attention that they desire to highlight the tragedy that women don't want to go in for science and engineering, men in increasing numbers don't want to go to college to study anything.
For every four bachelor's degrees received by women, only three are being awarded to men. This remains a growing trend that somehow has slipped beneath the radar while all were concerned with women's issues.
This disparate awarding of degrees will continue to contribute to the increasing number of women studying in the prestigious careers of law and medicine. Women will soon equal or overtake men in these fields.
Some women might consider this a good or even just development. Others will worry about the creation of a growing underclass of uneducated and unemployed men who historically have created great problems for the countries in which they reside.
6
@Mary Culper: Where do women like Kamala Harris who sleep with powerful, wealthy, older men to advance their careers (primarily for that reason) fall into your spectrum of gender morality?
2
@V Nagarajan That's called blaming the victim. It's an EXCUSE.
2
I am bored with the adage that men are the only non-thinking animal. Everything under the umbrella of “men and women together” is messy, sometimes gross, and sometimes painful: from mass snapchats to ghosting to waking up and not remembering:
We need to get over it, and start accepting that a society without “misunderstandings” will never exist. This article nails it, however: the conceptualization of consent has not been agreed upon by men, or by women and men together. The bar is being moved too often by those who in my opinion, wish to neuter masculinity (or “toxic masculinity”, whatever that is). While an honorable endeavor, letting the loudest lead the charge will just continue the disagreement. Ask any scientist: if you can’t agree on a conceptual definition, you can’t opertationalize it, can’t measure it, can’t test it, and it won’t support anything.
My proposed solution is let women act as free agents (as mentioned here somewhere in the comments), and give them the power to freely say no. Who can do this? Other women. Who are the other women? Those that decide they have agency.
Concluding with an anecdote: my #MeToo was taken care of with a sit down and a normal confrontation. I get that not everyone gets to do that, but I feel like we could give men the benefit of the doubt in their willingness to listen. They are after all, human.
21
@Olivia while admirable you were able to resolve your problem on your own, that is not reflective of most situations. Many women legitimately feel unable to do so due to fear, of retribution, professional suicide, more harassment, illegal discrimination and retaliation etc. Many women feel it's dangerous to give men any benefit of the doubt due to these very real and not unfounded fears. While true that women have agency, they are subject to historical and ingrained patriarchal strictures, even unconsciously.
12
@Olivia Mata - I hear that, home girl (me, former Albany native).
Something in your take may answer my question about this, from the article:
"one in four men believed women “usually have to be convinced” in order for sex to happen (only about a tenth of the women agreed)."
I need this explained to me. If 90 percent of women - what? - don't need to be convinced into having sex . . . I guess I don't even know what that means.
Is this a crisis of the 10 percent?
Sounds like "letting the loudest lead the charge will just continue the disagreement" to me.
@Bklyncyclone - "While true that women have agency, they are subject to historical and ingrained patriarchal strictures, even unconsciously."
This is also true of men, a great number of whom (90 percent?) will never force themselves on a woman in any way and have a comprehensive understanding of the meaning of the word 'no".
This article made me reflect more than I usually do on my past experiences and unfortunately I’m left with many more questions than answers. Consider this: I recall a situation in college where I was receptive with a partner who briefly sexualized my withdrawal of consent. I didn’t think much of it then, but now I feel I’d respond aggressively if it were to happen again. On the other hand, when I recall instances in which I take an active role with a partner, there are definitely moments when I ‘don’t hear’ a request to slow down or pause, or similar such slip ups. But, frankly, the typical encounter has elements of both types — victim and perp — save for those involving genuine romantic partners. The kernel, here, is not a proceptive/receptive one, but instead a more subtle one of instantiations of control in the course of the exchange. This kernel, no doubt, is weakly, but positively, related to the action and, I’m afraid, that observation serves only to muddy the kind of general analysis taken in the article.
3
Stu I think you are making a good distinction between casual or hook up sex and that which takes place between caring partners. Perhaps outside of an actual relationship some men care little or notice less whether a woman is enjoying what is happening and therefore just take what they want.
COMMUNICATION.
My husband and I have been together for 18 years.
Just recently, we reached a breakthrough point (after months of couples counseling), when I have finally communicated my needs clearly and unmistakably, and that he finally understood me clearly, that coercion is NOT consent. It just breeds resentment. Yes, even between people who love and forgive each other for decades, this is a huge problem because of a lack of communication. Coercion is deeply damaging to any relationship. It is deeply damaging to the person who does the harm, as well as the person who is harmed.
My husband and I wish we could have been wiser and worked this out decades ago; we would have saved ourselves much anguish. We are always a work in progress, but we're much better now that we communicate.
Our advice to new couples: COMMUNICATE. If you're feeling coerced, stop and say so!
Special advice to guys: many guys these days tend to be "takers." Try being a "giver," instead, and see if you have any complaints.
29
@Carrie I wanted to take back part of this as soon as I wrote it because it puts too much emphasis on the woman dealing with everyone's sexual health. NO, not at all. My point is that men need to step up NOW and take seriously their portion of responsibility for everyone's sexual health.
8
@Carrie How is coercion EVER consent? It is never.
7
@Barb Exactly. Hence the resentment.
1
I feel sorry for young people today as there is so much peer pressure to do things they really do not want to do. When I was growing up it was much easier and a more innocent time. Maybe because I grew up in a religious home and I just was lucky. I also knew actions had sequences and I did not want to have any regrets. I played it safe.
10
@WPLMMT you have a point regarding consent but many young people do want to do these things. Sex is a natural and joyous part of a healthy romantic relationship. Playing it safe is still possible with protection.
2
The idea that men act and women concede in sexual encounters is buried deep in most cultures. From puberty onward a boy or a man may talk of “scoring” with a female — sex being the reward for winning the game of sexual conquest — while girls and women are more apt to boast about “scoring” a high-value boyfriend (or husband). I’m not saying that women young and old don’t enjoy sex as much as men do, but that — generally speaking, and acknowledging the fact that of course there are outliers, and women can be predators, too — we women don’t have that “winner take all mentality” when it comes to sex. The concept of consent might be easier to us to grasp.
9
@Passion for Peaches I asked my two sons about how this was in their highschool and they said there was no atmosphere of boys bragging about scoring at all. They looked mystified and slightly grossed out at the idea.
3
@Passion for Peaches
Passion for Peaches, would it be fair to paraphrase your comment by saying," Men look for quantity and women look for 'quality'", quality being essentially defined as status of one sort or another?
1
For some, domination and control are swirled into the mix of sexual desire, enhancing the thrill. I'm not talking about consensual bondage. It's often the non-consent that fuels the turn-on. The consent message doesn't change everyone's behavior.
12
@Puffin, you are talking about rape. Rape porn is targeted at people like those you describe.
1
@Puffin I would call "non-consent" rape... And no, I don't find it a "thrill"
1
Nobody ever talks enough about the major role of alcohol in these situations. If we taught women explicitly and concretely how alcohol affects inhibitions and judgment and makes some people (men!) more aggressive, and firmly encouraged drinking less and having a buddy system, young women would avoid some of these incidents. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
23
@Julie Zuckman’s
Let me make a minor correction to your statement: If we taught women AND MEN explicitly and concretely how alcohol affects inhibitions and judgment and makes some people (men!) more aggressive, and firmly encouraged drinking less and having a buddy system, young women AND YOUNG MEN would avoid some of these incidents. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
51
@Julie Zuckman’s How about teaching abusers about consent? And if someone has an abusive tendency fueled by alcohol they should stay away from alcohol.
1
No safe words needed, no ambiguity at all.
We need to get back to OLD FASHIONED COURTSHIP. Be introduced by family or friends. Know the basics; their name address, phone number, where they were/are educated, who the parents are, where they are from, etc. Spend TIME with the person. Associate while among GROUPS of people. Talk to each other. Get to KNOW THE PERSON THOROUGHLY. Understand them. Know their likes and dislikes. Talk about Kids, Life, Money. Go steady. Get engaged. Take YEARS if necessary before any intimacy of any kind.
Some may say that is too restrictive, but in these days, I say it is NEEDED. TIME MUST PASS. PEOPLE MUST KNOW EACH OTHER COMPLETELY, what their hopes and dreams are, what they think about family life, what they think about the future. ONLY THEN CAN BOTH PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT REAL CONSENT IS. You cannot know on a one-night stand. You cannot know on a hook-up. You cannot know when you don't know her name.
Since men now have the MOST to lose, it is imperative that they be selective about where and how they meet women and the types of women they meet.
"Free Love" is dead.
So a woman goes with the man to his apartment/dorm room/hotel, and things are not going according to HER expectations. She can instantly call a halt to everything and he is supposed to instantaneously stop. Fine. HE SHOULD STOP. But why should anyone have to live with the idiosyncracies, likes/dislikes and sudden vagaries of another person?
13
@Elizabeth Moore
Because when we had "old fashioned courtship" no-one was ever raped, or sexually assaulted right?
Of course in *actual* history, as compared to you imagined golden past, we know that sexual violence was far *more* common, and mere rumor of sexual infidelity was justification for completely innocent women being murdered, and their murderers getting a slap on the wrist for a "crime of passion".
"Old fashioned courtship" is also strongly associated with the toxic idea that women have no agency, and merely pass from the possession of their father into the possession of their husband.
The modern world certainly has its challenges, but I for one am absolutely delighted that "old fashioned courtship" has gone the way of the "betrothal" and the "shotgun wedding".
11
@Elizabeth Moore: I think you are right, and that a lot of problems around sexual consent could be avoided by longer courtship, with it's root in courtesy. Although that could also result in women being subject to longer and more drawn out forms of coercion. No system is perfect. But I think there is something to be said for considering the gravity of sex, and knowing better who you are getting involved with.
And wave a magic wand and make smart phones and dating apps disappear too. The whole social landscape has transmogrified. There is no going back. Digital natives could never adapt in reverse to old fashioned courtship because families, neighborhoods, work, school is all into social media.
There are many people who would consider my Catholic school education oppressive. One thing the sisters did teach the girls was that we were in charge of our bodies and that we should not do anything that made us uncomfortable, and that we should not hesitate to tell a boy “no”. It’s discouraging to think that women today have problems asserting themselves.
22
@Mary
I went to Catholic school. And have no problem saying no. Neither of these things saved me from men who didn't care how I felt about my body or what words I said.
Also, kind of a weird moment to be talking about learning consent from the Catholic Church...
30
@Mary- Ah if only saying 'No' would stop a rapist.
I wonder - How does a woman not bear any responsibility in quasi-consensual situations. Sex is muddy and always fraught with hormones. It's a specious conclusion not to acknowledge sex ed for BOTH sexes is the real problem. Teens and young adults are confused.
47
We can discuss permissions and respect - and applaud our maturity. However when push comes to shove, a man is quite capable of shoving it in without any permission at all because he's got Mother Nature in his loins and Mother Nature wants babies! That is why women do well to protect themselves by dressing thoughtfully and refraining from overt suggestive behaviors.
5
@Margie Moore unfortunately, the 'thoughtful dressing' and avoidance of ''suggestive behavior' you refer to are no protection at all. How provocative or suggestive is someone being unconscious? I agree that it's prudent not to get drunk, or at least not drunker than you can manage, but that is precisely because, as this piece explains, rationalizing overtakes rational, responsible thinking in the minds of many guys.
18
@Elizabeth Moore I can posit the theory that the reason for the woman to get to know a guy before she has sex with him is because once she tells him that sex is not on the table, so to speak, until she gets to know him better, he has little to no interest in sticking around long enough to wait.
@Margie Moore
These arguments are irrational.
Women in the most conservative societies in the world suffer high rates of sexual assault and violence too. Nuns get raped. Children are sexually assaulted by religious men. Do you really imagine these phenomena are all distinct?
What advice do you have for these victims that don't fit your blame narrative? Women in many parts of the world cover heavily and never drink and are still attacked. Sometimes by groups of men. How should they police themselves? Maybe if we all hide inside a potato sack and never leave the house we'll be safe?
In truth, it is the people who think victims' behaviours cause them to be assaulted who create the environment in which assault is tacitly accepted.
No one causes a sexual assault except for the assailant. It's funny how quickly conservatives in particular will switch from a narrative of personal responsibility when it comes to moral and criminal behaviour, to a narrative of criminal helplessness when it comes to men and sexual assault.
A much needed discussion, and as the comments illustrate, both men and women easily become defensive and accuse each other. Education is a key, but finding a clear, effective curriculum is clearly a challenge. I don’t think we’re close to a helpful discourse yet, sadly...
11
Perhaps we should make general in all sex the idea of a "safe word" that stops everything.
The "safe, sane, consensual" crowd doing various kink has perfected this. It works. Ambiguity, confusion, misunderstood limits, soft limits, hard limits, I-changed-my-mind limits, they are all dealt with.
We could teach everyone to use the traffic light system.
Red means stop. Everything stops. No more. We are done. Get off.
Yellow means there is a problem. Ask. Fix it. Or it will turn red.
This is simple. Everyone knows those colors. They don't happen by accident in the midst of the act.
Just teach everyone to do it. Then we can ask, "Did you hear her say 'Red'?" Or we can ask, "Did you say 'Red'?" It is a bright line. It protects everyone, even the innocent making mistakes.
38
We have the entire English language and any of the following means the other party should cease activities they are: NO, STOP, GET-OFF, etc. why needlessly insert colors/safe words, etc.?
2
@Robert -- There is a reason people use safe words. They are absolute and unambiguous.
They cannot be part of the playing, say for people who (one of them anyway think) they like to play at "rough sex." They can't be anything else in the moment. There is no possible confusion or misunderstanding or excuse.
@Mark Thomason —
Thank you for your intelligent suggestion. As we all know, neither gender is particularly eager to be constantly asking questions like “Would it be OK if I now perform cunnilingus / fellatio on you?” in situations where it would be desirable to give our passions full rein. Arranging a set of “safe words” in advance, i.e. in the slow process of getting to know one another, establishes valuable trust and allows both partners to stay relaxed as they explore one another, knowing that they can slow things down or stop it altogether with the utterance of a single word. Of course, both partners must respect those safe words without question!
1
In all my experiences I have always been able to be clear and up front and have fortunately never had men who didn’t wait for a clear yes. I’ve also never been flirty. So perhaps it’s the use of artifice that causes the confusion of boundaries? I would always tell a man who was walking me home whether or not I had any interest or not, just to make it clear before we got to the door. It’s hard for men to read minds if nothing is made clear. Of course that doesn’t excuse the men who don’t take no for an answer. I’ve just been fortunate not to have met those men.
28
@Rodin's Muse
I think your experience is what happens in the 90% of the real world. The METoo movement, which was inspired by men in power abusing subordinate women, has been blown out of proportion to include ALL men and ALL dating and relationships. Thanks to the ridiculous accusation against Aziz Ansari by an anonymous cowardly woman, no one can draw the lines between the real victims of abuse such as those women that suffered under Harvey weinstein, from totally benign cases of normal relationships and courtships.
We are now in an atmosphere of wild witch hunt...
@Rodin's Muse I don't know. I've flirted with lots of guys who haven't raped me. And the night I was raped, I wasn't flirting.
"The truth is, men are not the most reliable arbiters of whether sex was consensual."
Neither are women, in morning-after regrets and embarrassment. Sober up, and say, "I did what?"
This isn't to excuse men, it is to say we have no solid reliable alternative either, as things stand right now.
We've got to re-imagine this, not cast blame one way or the other as if one or the other is always right. That just isn't true.
71
@Mark Thomason Agree. I am a woman, and oftentimes SHAME, and REGRET play a major role in how a woman views a sexual experience afterward.
For example, if he "ghosts" or never calls again, shame will make many women call that experience abuse or something worse. Why? Because they are only human and a human response to the shame of needlessly "giving away" something valuable to someone who did not respect its value is to say "I was conned," or "I was robbed." It is never to say, "I was a fool." No one wants to acknowledge that they were grifted out of something.
And so it goes.
6
Yes, we need to educate boys about consent. The time to come to a clear understanding of what constitutes consent isn't after a night of drinking. It should be done in the classroom. There are other issues that should be addressed in the classroom, bullying, drug and alcohol use, and gangs. We need a k-12 curriculum in morality. It should start in the lower grades with subjects like empathy, taking turns on the slide, why we don't hit, advancing age appropriately to the 12th grade. Don't expect kids to just soak up morality from the air. We need to teach it.
25
@P. J. Brown How about telling boys to respect THEMSELVES by never touching a drunk girl or drinking to excess themselves?
After 14 years of active alcoholism, I sobered up and started dating women who didn't drink. Dating was nerve-wracking, and the thought of sex was at the same time both alluring and terrifying. To avoid ambiguity, if I was interested in starting a sexual relationship, I just said so, in the most positive and complimentary terms I could. Some women said my approach wasn't romantic and turned them off. Some responded positively. Either way, I always got a clear "Yes" or an equally clear "No", and if the relationship went forward, there was no ambiguity. I was fortunate.
34
What you’re describing isn’t good fortune - it’s the predictable outcome of communication.
14
@Vesuviano Thank you. Yours is the right way to act, especially avoiding women who drink in the first place.
@Vesuviano Hats off to you. You made your own fortune through your direct and honest approach.
1
I have five grandchildren. I notice that each one is learning at home and at school that they should say no to unwanted touches. More than this, they are being taught to express their feelings, including about social discomfort. Yes, there are sexual issues between people, perhaps relating to gender differences, but there’s a bigger lesson now being learned about every person’s right to draw lines.
19
@Museman thank you for this. There is a quiet revolution happening where the foundations of consent are being laid down practically from day one. I ask my sons if they want a hug and if they say no, i cheerfully respond with “ok!”. They are never required to kiss or hug a relative against their will. In their German kindergarten, they are never required to play or share (!) with another child if they don’t want to. Contrast this with my day being ruined as a child because i knew i would be required to kiss my uncle goodbye. It made me miserably uncomfortable and my parents didn’t think to ask my opinion. I didn’t have the words to protest. I think this was typical.
I'm reminded of a comic that I saw when I was at University. It consisted of four squares. In each square, were a man and woman in the missionary position. First square, the woman says "Please!". Second square, the woman says "Don't!". Third square, the woman says "Stop!". Fourth square, the man thinks to himself "please don't stop!" And he goes on and proceeds with the act, with no remorse.
6
Nice guys finish last. Why? Because Nobody really wants a proverbial nice guy.
Contrary to belief - women do have power, agency and options how to shape this situation to their own benefit. All they have to do is choose the nice guy. Its not that complicated.
49
@Major As the essay very explicitly explains, many of the guys who get pushy or abusive in private think of themselves as "nice guys," and I'm sure many women will tell you that you can 't really predict this sort of thing based on superficial behavior.
53
@dave: That's because women are in denial that they're attracted to powerful men and seem to be willing to sacrifice many of those qualities they claim to want in their ladies polls. So please, stop acting as if the signals you send to men are so crystal clear. We're at a point in time where women are admirably standing up for themselves, but are also extremely overrated as a supposed gender model of unassailable behavior and emotional clarity.
1
@Major
There it is again, the self-serving and convenient lie that women (read: "all women") don't want nice guys, they want "bad boys." Perfect excuse for mistreating them! Especially if you're a self-identified Nice GuyTM.
Never mind that it flies in the face of common sense. Women must be some strange creature from another planet, one that bears no resemblance to ordinary human beings -- because it's convenient for men to view them that way.
Just ask former NY attorney general Eric Schneiderman, the one who claimed women liked being punched in the face. Because he liked punching women in the face.
10
When you talk about "men" doing something, it implies that all - or a vast majority - of men do it. My question is: do you believe that a vast majority of men do these things? A subset can be offenders and it can still be a crisis linked to gender.
If you believe it is a minority subset, you should use terminology like "some men", "many men", etc.
40
@Nick
Sadly the NYT promotes this kind of biased language every day. It is tremendously disturbing to see people who claim to be fighting bias and injustice use such obviously biased and unjust language. If you speak about women or any ethnic group in this generalized negative way people howl with outrage. Cast "men" as a group in a negative light and no one bats an eye. It's not that it would be difficult to use responsible langage, it's that reactionary people cannot be trusted to deal responsibly with complex issues.
2
Today’s the first day of games in baseball’s Spring Training and football won’t have a game for six months, but all the sports talk radio is talking about The Patriots and their owner. Pretty crafty.
3
@Rick
Of course there is no need for a rush to judgment.
Right Jussie?
Ditto Duke Lacrosse?
Just wondering.
I see little difference between saying that young men should be better able to act on the perceived discomfort of their female partners... and saying that young women should be better able to voice their own discomfort with their male partners. Both are true.
"But there's a power imbalance."
Frankly, if you really believe that there is that much of a power imbalance, then you don't believe in women's agency.
41
Sigh. In REALITY there is a power imbalance in many situations. You can believe that women SHOULD have equal power and agency while acknowledging the reality that they often do not. Is that so complex?
67
@Mike M Power and agency are seized, not offered on a silver platter.
7
@Mike M Women have the power to AVOID the whole situation IN THE FIRST PLACE! A WOMAN CHOOSES TO GO WITH A MAN FOR SEX OR CHOOSES NOT TO GO WITH A MAN FOR SEX.
When I was a young woman, I CHOSE NOT TO GO WITH MEN WHO WERE INTERESTED IN SEX. I told men I dated UP FRONT that I was not interested in having sex with them. Of course, some of them dropped me, but they showed their true colors. How difficult is that? If a man is honestly interested in you, he will still date you. I have been married for 32 years, and I told the man I am currently married to that I did not want to have sex with him when we first met 35 years ago. Of course, we married and enjoyed sex later, but when we were dating, I told him NO. He still wanted to date me and be with me and eventually, we married. That was because he loved and respected me and I him.
But, apparently, LOVE is gone. It is all about someone's animal sexual gratification, and that is a pity.
That is the bottom line. Agency begins when a woman (or a man) chooses something better and more dignified for themselves. LOVE is more dignified and better.
9
One item from the article that I found interesting: the survey of college students where 45% of the male students expected sex after a party, and 30% of the female students expected exactly the same thing. 45% vs 30% is NOT a huge difference. It undercuts the whole story that somehow men are completely out of tune with women.
69
You’re right, after seeing the statistics cited, I have a hard time accepting the premise of the article that *men* are the one’s who need to learn consent.
I am not denying that affirmative and enthusiastic consent is a moral imperative, yet the article, and popular culture, portray the issue as men and women being completely out of sync.
Both statistics (45% vs 30%, and 25% vs 10%) indicate that only an additional 15% of men have a different opinion than do women on this issue.
14
@David Goldberg
"45% vs 30% is NOT a huge difference"
Seriously? It's a 50% difference! If you get paid $100,000 for a job, and your coworker gets $1500 for the same work, or if your house sold for $300,000, and the house next door sold for $450,000, would you say it was "not a huge difference" ?
10
@Eric Martinez - You make a great point, but those 35%-25% stats are being misinterpreted anyway.
The question focuses on what a man or woman would expect to happen *if* they went home with someone after meeting them at a party. But maybe men and women are equally willing to have vaginal sex *if* they were in that situation, but they just aren't equally willing to be in that situation. If so, there is no misunderstanding at all about what is likely to happen.
Example: 60 men and 60 women go to a party. 40 of those men would go home with someone they met that night, but only 30 of the women would do so. Suppose, not unreasonably, that 50% of both men and women would likely have vaginal sex *if*they went home with someone they just met.
Now go survey those 120 people. It's very easy to get to the 35% vs. 25% results. First, assume that everyone, men and women, unwilling to go home with someone they just met would say "vaginal sex is unlikely" for them.
So, of the 60 men, 20 would say "unlikely" because they don't like one-night stands anyway. Of the remaining 40, 20 (those 50% not interested in vaginal sex with a new partner) would also say "unlikely". So 20 (33% of surveyed men) would say "likely".
By the same logic, of the 60 women, the 30 who don't like one-night stands would say "unlikely". 15 (50% of the remaining 30) would also say "unlikely". That leaves 15 (25% of surveyed women) who would say "likely".
33% vs. 25%. Accurate judgment by all. Where's the problem?
My guess is that we're not as civilized as we think we are.
Nature itself, does not care about laws or good manners.
24
@Stephen
Civilization has never been anything more than the thinest of tissues, fraying at the edges and hanging, always, by a thread. We are beasts barely out of the jungle. And that's on a good day. Which is precisely why we have to fight for laws and good manners.
@Stephen
Another convenient excuse! Deep down men are still primitive apes who can't control themselves from raping people.
If men are really that primitive, uncivilized and unable to control their criminal impulses, then men should be barred from holding public office, working in positions of trust or discretion, obtaining security clearances, serving in the military, intelligence or law enforcement -- if not all jobs. Their biologically determined propensity to commit crime should be considered at any bail or sentencing hearing. They should pay higher insurance premiums and taxes because of the risks they pose and the costs they disproportionately inflict on the rest of society.
2
@Jenny I used to think that burqas were worn as a way to subjugate women.
Now, I see this was meant as a way to protect women. Literally hiding them.
Not a fan of Trump, but when scandals appeared in the military about sexual harassment, Trump said, "what did you expect?".
The sexes have been segregated for this kind problem for many years. Women were not allowed on navy ships, not as a put down, but again, as a protection.
Humans will always try to circumvent nature, (like "anti-aging"), but nature will always win.
Yes, men can be as beastly as you say in a very overt way. Yet, so are women, in a more covert way.
2
Just as you claim men do wrong things there are just as many women who do wrong things. There are many cases of women using sexual assault claims over being jilted or left after a one night stand.
Willing participants who decided they want to hurt a man who doesn't want anything to do with them later on in life.
35
@Mr Chang Shih An Can you provide statistics of these 'many cases' of false assault claims? The author provides comprehensive data to explore men's relationship to consent. Do you have similar data?
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@Mr Chang Shih An
All experts point to very little evidence of this. Men only want to assume this is true by ignoring how poorly women are treated for any attempt to bring a claim of sexual assault in public and how much more evidence there is for women electing not to make accusations at all because of the indignity and stress it will bring them regardless of the truth of their account.
3
@RME I'm a woman and I have heard numerous other women ADMIT to this. They usually say something like "that dog never even called me back--I'll fix him. . ." or "how dare he treat ME like that after all I did for him!"
Over and over, the story is the same. Shame and remorse over having given "your body" to a man who "disrespects" you, especially if that man moves on to another woman. Beauty Parlors are just like Barber Shops.
We are all caught in the cusp of a paradox, resulting from our technological development and the consequent economic and social changes. In the past, the relationship between the sexes was determined according the dictates of natural selection within the constraint of the capabilities of the species and the conditions they faced.
Males were endowed with a physical and sexual persona that featured aggressive behavior. This is no longer a necessary trait necessary for survival and procreation.
My guess is than natural selection will sort all of this out in due time.
6
"They?" Oh please.
You'd think by the time one gets to be a good enough writer to have something published in the NY Times, she would have learned to avoid the obvious blunder of over-generalization.
For the life of me I can't understand how so many miss the obvious -- many men in our culture are either aroused by violence or are comfortable with arousal in a setting of violence. Many men are not. The former are the problem. The latter are our allies. Yes I'm sure the demarcation line is blurry but there are plenty of men on the good side of it. Frankly, anyone who hasn't figured that out or is pretending to be oblivious to it, is just contributing to the problem.
If we don't realize that many men are our allies and stop denouncing the lot of them en masse, we'll never get anywhere.
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@Jamila Kisses
There are plenty of women aroused by sexual violence as well. If you don't believe it, pick up a romance novel.
6
@mj
Not really. Sexual violence/rape is by definition nonconsensual. Yes, some women who enjoy romance novels have fantasies of being "taken" by some dangerous man (a pirate, perhaps). But in these fantasies, the woman herself is in control, because she can always change the story if she wants to.
5
@Jamila Kisses. Evolutionarily speaking, it may be that violence, fear of death, actually jumpstarts sex drive. These genes of ours insist on reproducing.
Ms. Orenstein points out that men are poorly trained in consent and dating. I agree. I've heard similar comment from other women in the past year along with suggestions that we retrain sons, husbands, and men in general. But I ask, "What training?" I seemed to have missed this class at my high school, college, church, and community gatherings.
My parents did not mention consent, since finding that one perfect mate was the goal and "falling in love" and marriage were the presumed outcomes. All of our social organizations are failing men and women similarly in this regard. Young men (like young women) are left to figure this out for themselves and social osmosis is not working.
Where are men to learn that the lines between attention, persistence, stalking, and assault are very thin and even vary from women to woman? What does society expect when the example is John Wayne taking Maureen O'Hara by force because she doesn't know what 's good for her? What are men to learn when O'Hara melting after the Duke's (forced) kiss is the triumph and she becomes property via marriage? The moral appears to be that resistance and conflict are to be expected before "happy ever after" can result.
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@Eddie D KNOWING THE PERSON you are pursuing is the answer. Taking time to know someone, talking, talking and more talking. Interacting in group settings with others, family and friends in particular. Both the man and the women see "eye to eye" and wind up "on the same page," as it were. All of this leads to understanding a person and prevents the sort of wrong-headed actions and misunderstandings and cause trouble.
It is not possible to do this in hook-ups, booty calls and one night stands.
7
@Eddie D I think the specific point the writer makes is that men largely already DO know and recognise their partner's discomfort, and that many will continue despite recognising lack of consent. So while teaching about consent is important, what we need is a way to teach men how to prioritise women's comfort, autonomy, safety and pleasure as much as their own.
2
@Eddie D I doubt that 90% of people alive today know who John Wayne or Maureen O'Hara are/were. I had to Google them. I think that was your point, though. ;-) Hopefully, this generation will do better.
1
It is easier to define consent by its absence than by its presence. We all could recognize lack of consent by verbal cues like "No" or "Stop," and by physical cues like moving away or blocking someone from touching you. But there is a lot of gray area, too.
Males sometimes try to take things to 'another level,' when things are getting physical. Or they might express a wish to do something and the female would feel pressure to go along. And so on.
Human relationships are complicated, and sexual relations are so much so, they are a land mine. There is a whole spectrum of what consent means. And if navigating it is tricky even for adults, imagine doing so with the awkwardness and limited maturity of a young person. It's not so cut and dry.
16
Come now it is not "men" but rather a very small subset of them that are arrogant and disrespectful. If all men did whatever they desired, many would be in jail.
26
@vulcanalex I guess we are finally discovering that men who do whatever they desire for 30 years MIGHT finally end up in jail (H Weinstein, R Kelly). Definitely would not have been a given for the last 3,000 years, though...
3
@vulcanalex Come now, here's a few statistics for you! Over their lifetime, an estimated 19% of women and 2% of men will have been raped, while 44% of women and 23% of men will experience some other form of sexual violence.
An average of 33% of sexual victimizations were reported to police.
1
@vulcanalex. The American legal system incarcerates one man for every 100 rapes.
4
Another nail in the coffin of equality. Combining anecdotes and quasi-science we come again to the conclusion that women in our society simply can’t consent. They are too pressured by upbringing, capitalism, etc. and must be protected via anti-democratic and anti- equality means. Thus, the author concludes directly that witnesses should be believed, or not, based on their sex. We have been there before, and this thinking kept women down. Using such sexism to lift women up will not work. All humans are equal. None can assault, or lie about assault, without paying the price. Try applying this theory that women can’t respond to common signals in non-sexual situations and see yourself rightly accused of sexism.
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@Kevin Johnson
“All humans are equal. None can assault, or lie about assault, without paying the price.”
Are you serious???
4
I had a girlfriend, an interesting case: she was mostly excited by refusing. Even after we were partners for months. She would say "no", and would get even more excited - by saying "no".
Tell me again that "no means no"...
37
@Max I’ve had more than a few encounters (I’m 78 y/o) in which the woman said “No, no.” When I stopped. I found out, through a third party, that the woman was very disappointed Because I stopped!
Once time I didn’t stop and it was very satisfying for both.
There is reference to this peculiar activity on then part of women, mentioned in “Catcher I the Rye” as related to by Holden to his psychiatrist.
Very strange.
1
@Max
In my case, I actually stopped and turned away when she said no...she appeared puzzled and asked me where are you going? It was hilarious.
2
There is nothing wrong with sexual role playing games, as long as both partners fully understand what the game entails and when and how to end it.
To merely assume because one girlfriend, according to you, enjoyed such a game, that therefore all women are ‘lying’ when they say no, will only land you in jail at some point.
8
Seymour, my brother known as 'Bear' now at a grey beard age, might have something to add to this 'Consent' Forum.
Just as I had passed my first bloom and felt the coast was clear, I invited a new neighbor into my apartment on a Saturday night when he was seen padding in the corridor.
In appearance, he looked like a mature college grad, hirsute and harmless. The purpose on my part was to find out why he and his room-mate were given to loud shouting at 4:00 a.m., or 'getting to know you' and explain diplomatically that I needed my beauty sleep.
Now. It was late afternoon, and I did not feel like feeding him dinner. Soon it became clear that he had no plans, and the only plan on what was to turn into a long night, was that he was not planning to leave. The gift of the gab inherited from my father 'Wolf' (but we won't go there), had always come in handy. Not this time.
He was a man who knew far more about women than I did about men, and after he won at chess, backgammon, poker, it was time to put the board games away, while counting my dwindling options.
After making enough broken promises to make a campaigning politician blush, he finally left the cave; left me immune to his pounding on the door for the next few days.
Love and Sex are often confused. Stanley Hyman, a famous reviewer and critic, bearish in looks, believed that it was in the nature of women to wish to be ravaged. This is not true and he would have received his comeuppance in the times we live.
9
I think I must be just too stupid or illiterate to understand exactly what is trying to be communicated here; other people obviously seem to comprehend it all however.....
“first bloom” - is that a metaphor for losing one’s virginity?
I won’t even go into the rest of it I’m confused about.......
1
I believe the women who stand, determined, in the photo and say they do not consent. I completely agree with them and with the content of the article. I'm grateful for Ms. Orenstein for her research and advocacy. It has been over 15 years since I touched a woman - other than embraces or handshakes that women themselves have initiated - and this, at least for me, has been the best way forward. Physical contact between the sexes is much too dangerous and fraught in the context in which we live. It's not a requirement for survival for men to have their gross physical desires satisfied. I feel I can live much more respectfully if I allow women the sanctity of their bodies and never let that sanctity to be compromised. I have taken that oath and will never forsake it.
14
@John Turnbull It seems that you have taken the path that most men today MUST take to survive. Sad, yet I congratulate you.
If I had a son, I would advise him to act precisely as you have. Never be alone with an individual woman--associate and socialize in GROUPS only. Never initiate any physical contact. Do not date or associate with any co-workers. Avoid all touches except handshakes and that only if SHE extends her hand first and in the presence of others, avoid meeting in bars and through dating apps, and do not associate with any woman who has not been formally introduced by known FAMILY or FRIENDS.
It is very said that it has come to this, but it is the best way to protect yourself. Nowadays, one never knows what can happen. Misunderstandings are dangerous. You can still meet women, but only with those who know and love you as go-betweens. And this type of social buffering also protects the woman.
The most significant shortcoming of this article is that it talks about consent as if it were one clearly defined universal standard of conduct. The overtones of an implied standard on what consent looks like pervade the piece. It is not that simple. The article does acknowledge one critical point, that none of us can know what the other person is thinking and that we each have a unique viewpoint on the acceptability of any given activity involved in a sexual encounter.
One person's poison will be another person's jam. Too often as in this article, consent conversation drifts into trying to spell out a universal code of what can be consensual. Some of the examples cited in the piece imply agressive sexual activities like pushing down of the head almost by definition cannot be consensual. This is far from true but consent for such an activity is more complex than for activities considered more "mainstream" (though beware of making any assumptions on how anyone views any activity).
What we really need people to focus on is communication. Only through communication can we stay on the right side of consent. The level of communication needed for consent rises with novelty. The less familiar people are with their sexual partner or engagement on a particular activity with a partner, the higher this communication bar rises.
It's a sad fact that most consent problems could be avoided if we all just learned to slow down a bit to ensure proper communication has and is occurring.
44
@If Only It Were That Simple The bottom line is that one cannot communicate with a person who is for all intents and purposes A STRANGER.
Wow. What an excellent essay. So well said. Thank you.
22
I say this as a woman. The article says that "Young men still too often learn to prioritize their pleasure over women’s feelings."
But young women, clearly, need to learn to speak up. They are not making their feelings known. They are getting into provocative situations without realizing the very predictable flow of things. They don't seem to realize how things work, that they are at a huge power differential and need to speak up, make their feelings known, or simply not get into the situatino to begin with.
191
@FC
Thanks for your excellent response to the Orenstein article. How could anyone not understand the importance of teaching girls and women to recognize and learn to navigate successfully in potentially harmful sexual settings?
As a matter of fact, as far back as the 1940s a number of gifted psychologists began researching ways to help people in many settings (family, the playground, school, church, the workplace, etc.) learn skills with which to better handle challenges to their comfort and dignity. Their work led to what became known as "assertiveness training," which became popular within behavioral psychology circles in the late 1960s - 1980s. Its purpose is stated clearly in Wikipedia: "Sensitivity training is a form of training with the goal of making people more aware of their own goals as well as their prejudices, and more sensitive to others and to the dynamics of group interaction."
While the education of boys along these lines is vital, I think no issue could be more important than helping girls, starting in infancy, gradually develop self-assertion skills as matters of self-protection and entitlement. I did my best to help my daughter along these lines, and now at 83 I am proud to see her continue this essential family work with her daughter and her son - ages 10 and 6.
23
@FC Saying this 'as a woman' doesn't dilute the misogyny in your response. Your statement assumes that women who have been raped DIDN'T speak up, or got themselves into 'provocative' situations and what 'flows' from that is somewhere their fault. This is an incredibly regressive and dangerous understanding of consent.
12
@BF
Thanks for your excellent response to my post!
1
We certainly saw this with Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh. We saw it with the men in the senate during these confirmation hearings. If a woman had been accused of similar deeds she would have been charged with a crime and certainly not been confirmed.
I think that men fail to appreciate how women feel about sex and intimacy. I don't know if it's because of the testosterone or if it's our culture but men don't like to hear the word no. They really do consider themselves to be irresistible. But women pay the price for unprotected sex and for consenting sex. We may want to keep the whole thing private yet they don't.
If our country wasn't so hypocritical about teenage sex and sexuality in general we would teach children about sexual pleasure, when and where it's appropriate, and to respect the words no, I don't want to, and even the words I'm not sure. That we refuse to do this and emphasize abstinence in some states is sheer stupidity that protects the adults from embarrassing explanations and realizations.
Children grow into teens who become adults. Isn't it better to have them enter adulthood knowledgeable about sex, reproduction, and the feelings involved?
57
If a man says, "Yes,"to me sexually but seems uncomfortable, hesitant, or has tears in his eyes or is refusing to look at me, I'm not going to continue. Consent is not a magical yes. You need to pay attention to--and actually care about-- the total person with whom you're engaging.
94
“Young men still too often learn to prioritize their pleasure over women’s feelings, to interpret a partner’s behavior through the lens of their own wishes.”
This!
Because men, really boys, are conditioned by their fathers and mothers to go after whatever it is they want...and not take “NO” for an answer. I doubt their parents had sexual assault in mind, most likely they didn’t even broach the subject because these things just aren’t spoken about....
...young girls on the other had are taught by these same parents, male and female, to be submissive, because nice girls, good girls, are polite and accommodating....
...neither fathers nor mothers consciously intend for their messaging to encompass sexuality. None even consider that the behaviors they instill and nurture in their sons and daughters are misinterpreted and misdirected into sexual improprieties. Improprieties that are experienced as either the perpetrator or the victim.
44
@BMUS No offense, but from a man, this really never happens. There may be other causes but this isn't one.
6
@keith
No offense taken. Can you please expand upon what you mean? I’m a woman. I truly don’t think parents intend to condition their children one way or the other. However, as a woman my parents sent mixed messages to myself and my siblings, male and female. My brother was taught to pursue at all cost. My sister and I were taught to always say no to a guy, but also to always be sweet and accommodating. The very definition of oxymoronic.
14
I was taught that to treat others as they want to be treated. I didn't know any parents who taught their boys to win at all costs or always be pushy and demanding. I only report my experience, I accept that you had a father quite different then the men who raised my friends and me.
3
Please don't perpetuate this idea of "men" being one way or the other. What you are talking about is not "men." Its criminals. to the extent they proceed without consent or the like. There are a lot (most I would submit) of men who are respectful and articulate on all of these issues and have lived their lives accordingly. It is discordant and not helpful to characterize an entire gender according to the behaviors of a perverted minority. And yes, i include our president here. Some of us never had to grope women, non-consensually, to have our sexual needs met. We weren't that kind of loser. It was a wonderful, mutual event--the subject of great literature and and music. But I digress . . .
36
Consent is not so hard to understand. You would not enter another's abode without an invitation. If a woman's body is not her abode pray tell just what is it? If you do not have an invitation do not enter; seems simple enough...
15
@DCreamer Please don't compare our bodies to inanimate objects like houses. There is no comparison. Humans are more complicated than houses and invitations to another human's bodies are more complicated and prone to misunderstandings than invitations to a house.
16
@Adele The more complicated you make it the more likelihood there is of misunderstandings. Misunderstandings can only be mitigated in the moment by honest communication. If I express an interest and the person is unsure I do not press the issue; I pass. Nothing is worth a situation where anybody ends up hurt, devalued, or feeling betrayed. The only way to avoid misunderstandings is to engage in simple, open, fulsome, and honest conversation. Anyone who has some emotional or intellectual impediment to such a conversation is not anyone I would find interesting....
I have thought through the topic of consent and male sexuality ad nauseam. It's clear that men, since the beginning of time, are biologically wired to be the more predatory gender. Not just sexually, but also in the hunter/gatherer sense. Are there variations? Of course. However, it is also true that many if not most women are attracted to alpha male prototypes. They convey confidence and bravado. Then, when it crosses the line, it's assault. This is an enormously complicated social issue that does not solely hinge upon men's understanding on this topic. Women, too must consider their own biological wiring and the reinforcing social effects of biology. The legal consequences of assault and rape we are seeing now are positive and highly progressive (so long as there is due process). Over the long term, there may be hope for a more sophisticated way to interact between the genders that will be respectful without losing the mystery and romance of courtship.
15
@MClaire
Male predation and bravado is the product of millions of years of ecological and sexual selection. I remember the bully football players got all the girls in high school.
We are not animals; we are shaped by cultures that naturalize rape.
2
This doesn't go far enough. The bear metaphor is weak. There's a segment of a BBC documentary about chimpanzees narrated by Attenborough that really hits home.
First realize that all the chimpanzees you've seen on TV are baby chimpanzees, two years old or less. You don't really understand how much like people they really are.
They are intelligent and dangerous. They practice war, terror, rape, murder and cannibalism. They combine all of these activities together during raids for territorial control against other groups of chimpanzees.
Human behavior is animal behavior.
Religion often denies this and in so doing both ignores our relationship with nature and the fact that good behavior is relative — defined by culture, not innate (as is bad behavior).
Define rape and sexual abuse, even sexual language as abuse. This was not how it was before. This is a new cultural movement.
It takes us farther than ever away from the violence inherent in our animal nature. (And rape, sexual assault and language which seeks to groom others for sexual assault is always a form of violence.)
This is not a battle for women to wage against men as the right has framed it. It is a journey to improve human nature. It is the continuation of a humanitarian path in our cultural evolution.
Men and women need to change the way they raise boys and girls. The family remains the agent of society. If you want a better society —you need to make better families.
16
What is lost in the dominant narratives of primatology is that we are just as closely related to the Bonobo as to the Chimp. The behavior and social structures could not be more different. Bonobos are not violent, but rather overtly and prolifically affectionate.
It’s time we stop trying to rationalize human behavior through (human interpretation of) primate behavior. We may share >90% of our DNA with them, but we share about half of our DNA with bananas - don’t read too much into it.
10
What wasn't mentioned in this article is the seemingly disparate sex drive of men vs. women. That is not to say that women don't want and enjoy sex, but they usually prefer to know and care about their partner.
Given the hair-trigger response of most young men to multiple suggestive stimulants (read Portnoy's Complaint, where a bra hanging on a clothesline was a turn-on), there needs to be acknowledgment that young women need to be very alert and aware of what's happening to their date physiologically--just from a kiss.
This is an age old challenge for young men and women, and young women need to be cautioned about how strong mens' response can be to what the woman might consider casual affection.
36
@Elizabeth Bennett
This advice reminds me of my 50's era stepmother's lectures when I came in from a night out with my boyfriend in high school. What bothers me is the emphasis on the responsibility laid on the girl. My guess is you are perhaps older, and maybe haven't fully understood that women today are more than weary of double standards. I do not have the answer either, but I certainly don't think of Philip Roth as someone to look to for wisdom in that particular regard.
35
@nicola davies
"women today are more than weary of double standards"
...but three months after sex where no force or threats were used, and friendly messages were later exchanged, a woman can anonymously accuse a man of sexual assault. If a board of college administrators decides that it is perhaps true (not even a preponderance of evidence standard) he can be publicly sanctioned and expelled from school.
...but if a very drunk man and moderately drunk woman have sex, he is technically assaulting her (again, no force or threats). Weeks later she can decide she regrets the encounter, anonymously accuse him of rape, and seek his expulsion from college.
Sounds like a double standard to me.
1
So, is this an example of womansplaining?
I have always believed there is such a thing as miscommunication. It often involves two people, and often both of them 'bear' some responsibility. This does not excuse truly horrible behavior by either party. But to always assume the worst of men is nothing short of misandry. And, quite frankly, it is getting tiresome.
Let us all learn to communicate better, respect each other more, and judge each other less based on gender, race, religion, etc. Because by definition, these identity-based judgements are prejudice.
79
@woodyrd No, but we've tried mansplaining for 20,000 years, and we're still at the same place...
8
@woodyrd — Ms. Orenstein has interviewed dozens of women and men about this and written two books on what she heard. She isn't assuming anything.
9
Fabulous, articulate article and important research, Ms.Orenstein. Thank you for this.
10
Only when males will have only so many sperm as female have ovarian eggs and - above all - when Mother Nature and Mother Evolution will make males getting pregnant as the (only or one of two) ways to preserve the homo sapiens species
we will have the fundamental pre-requisites for expectation that males will process potential sexual encounter (specifically coitus) in sufficiently similar ways.
Until that time. despite the best and comprehensive sex-ed and having all males indoctrinated into the maximum possible sensitivity, empathy, etc. toward their (sexual) partners we can't realistically expect that the males approach, thinking, feeling about sexual encounter will be anywhere as complex and deep as those of females.
It was not - believe me - a "social construct" or product of patriarchal oppression that females (of homo sapiens) process and think about (especially actual) sex in much more comprehensive, thus more ambivalent ways.
Thus it is completely unreasonable (and actually harmful) to expect that frequency of complains or charges that the last night sex was not really consensual, thus criminal, on females side will ever approach (very low? zero?) level of complains about non-consensual sex on males side.
Impacts of potential pregnancy are, on female side, completely of different order in so many fundamental ways. No education (male and female), while highly desirable and necessary, can even that out.
10
Ms. Orenstein calls for fully educating boys "not only about the importance of consensual, ethical, mutually pleasurable sexuality, but about the ways their own sense of entitlement may blind them to those values, leading them to cause harm, whether or not they choose to see it."
Agreed. But how about educating girls about all of this as well? How about, especially, educating both sexes about "mutually pleasurable sexuality"?
I spent some time in France in 2017 and learned that even in small towns there are school sex education programs for 12-and 13-year-olds that, along with talking about protection and sexually contagious diseases, talk frankly and openly about ways a man can give pleasure to a woman and ways a woman can give pleasure to a man. All I could think was, "How wonderful is that!"
Fat chance you'll find anything like that going on here.
64
@Emile US puritanism and lack of acknowledgement of anything but profit motive in living has created a terrible society.
1
Sexual assault and rape are crimes. If the author is talking about nonconsensual sex, she is talking about rape or sexual assault. That requires that she use the legal definition of consent. In most states, consent is not determined by the collegiate yes-means-yes standard which the author defines as the standard. The actual legal standard in most states is no-means-no and stop-means-stop-right-now, and that the consenting party must be mentally, physically, and legally able to consent. A 17-year old, of either sense, with a 20-year old sex partner is going to be determined to have been at least statutorily raped in most locales. The person is not adult and not legally able to consent to sex with an adult. It is not surprising that consent isn't all that well understood by college students, when the colleges have invented their own definition of consent.
Does passionate kissing equate to consent? If the persons doing the kissing meet the mental/physical/legal requirements to consent and neither has said no or stop or words to that effect, such as 'please, don't then in many jurisdictions legal consent has been given.
16
@allentown says, "Does passionate kissing equate to consent? If the persons doing the kissing meet the mental/physical/legal requirements to consent and neither has said no or stop or words to that effect, such as 'please, don't then in many jurisdictions legal consent has been given."
No. Kissing does not equal consent for anything beyond kissing. Ever.
1
@allentown It's called "physical consent."
Why is this piece, like so many others, uni-directional? Why does it explore only "men", consent and consequences?
When I was in law school a relative brought a young woman over to a house I shared. We all stayed up, talked, didn't drink, and went to bed in our respective spaces.
I was awakened in the wee hours by the young woman who had entered my room through a closed door, disrobed, climbed into my bed and started fondling.
Would Ms. Orenstein say, in this and doubtless millions of other similar cases, "It's not that women don't know what consent is -- they often understand that what they're doing is wrong but they do it anyway"?
Or does the current meme require scrutiny of men only?
152
@Stuck on a mountain
wow. I would love to hear about other men who have experienced something like this.
I'd bet it's exceedingly rare. But you are right. This definitely crosses a line.
10
@mj
not exceedingly rare at all.
8
@Stuck on a mountain
The answer depends on what happened after se got in bed with you.
3
As a not so young man, by far, I am offended by this article.
First, to make it clear, any sexual assault is reprehensible, and deserves punisment. So by no means am I an apologist.
My problem with this article is that it refers to men, all men, any man, as if we were all homogeneous. The author doesn’t even make the slightest attempt to avoid generalization, and to even suggest that all men - in my experience most men, do not follow the pattern of behavior she describes. Therefor, I am deeply disturbed and offended by this stereotype into which all men were cast as this author could and would be if I wrote an article ascribing a behavior to most women.
I could also debate or at least seriously question many of the questionable assumptions portrayed as fact inpp the article, but I will refrain from doing so.
My point is made. It is despicable whenever a behavioral trait, let alone a disturbing one, is blindly ascribed to any group, whether that be ethnic, racial, political, LGBTA or as in this case, men.
The author may well have had extremely important points to make, but they are obscured by the pervasive bias of the article.
145
@Gino G Imagine how women have felt over eons. All women were and still are in many aspects considered not able to do STEM professions.
16
@Gino G Incomprehensible to me why a man would find this article offensive. If anything, it is too broadly generous, portraying perpetrators of assault as "good guys" doing bad things, something that obviously makes no sense from a psychological point of view - muddying the waters unacceptably in an area where crimes can be committed and then it's not the man, but the woman, who suffers the consequences of such "bad behavior".
18
@Gino G
er, no. this was a study about YOUNG men who don't understand consent.
Not ALL men.
11
Years ago I heard an interview on TV with a convicted rapist. He was describing what had happened and he said this: "To me, she wanted it."
Every time anybody talks about "consent," I think back to this interview. No, buddy, you don't get to make up your own reality. No, what you believe is not what is necessarily true about other people, or about how the outside world objectively is. This is a lesson that should be taught in many contexts. But especially when harm to other human beings results from not knowing it.
45
A few years ago I noticed that when my granddaughters were getting ready to leave after a visit that the older one seemed uncomfortable.
Everyone hugged each other goodby. I felt like she was feeling obligated to hug me.
So I started making myself absent at those times. Her grandmother (my wife) and I talked about this, and we thought that this change would be a good framework for her. She shouldn't be expected to hug a man, even a grandfather, unless she chose to. There should be no social expectations, no indirect pressures to touch a man, any man.
She is now 13. I hope she is getting a lesson regarding men who set appropriate boundaries for her.
If someone doesn't, they are going to have to deal with me. Or worse, I'd hate to see what her grandmother would do to the guy.
17
@Dan
Or maybe she's just wondering why Grandpa is acting weird and doesn't want to hug her anymore.
1
@Dan No social obligations? Then what is a nuclear family?
Blatant sexism. Yup, all men are the same. I can only imagine the blowback if the title of the article read 'Women' instead of 'Men'.
Any grownup female will assure you that men are NOT all the same. I am a very strong proponent of equity between the sexes, but stuff like this article do women a great disservice in the long run. Women cannot become equal without the help of men, this is something as a species we have to work together to achieve. Bashing half the human race is not the best way to achieve a goal of equality.
179
Amen! And that's coming from an overprotective Dad of a young daughter.
4
Sorry, but nothing in this article, whether its title or its contents, implies that men are all the same. In what way is it sexist to survey men & women and discuss which percentages of which groups said which things??
15
@Birbal "Women cannot become equal without the help of men"--nope. If it were up to men to grant equity to women, we still wouldn't have the right to vote. Women have had to fight for everything we have, and we will not stop fighting to get what we deserve. We don't need YOU to permit us our equality, and we certainly don't need to water down the contents of an article such as this just so that you'll find it palatable enough to think we deserve to be heard. The idea that the title of the article is "sexist" (even though the title is a summary of research conducted on MEN) is ridiculous. We can't dress it up as being something else just because the findings make men feel uncomfortable. It's not wrong just because it makes you uneasy.
17
Really excellent, right up until the final conclusion.
We have fifty-plus years of work on the internal neural details of this problem, and we are certain more, and clearer, education will not change a thing.
The standard species-wide system for mating that we all inherit has the necessary safeguards built in. The problem is not the participants' understanding of the situation, it's their perception of what they're doing as it unfolds.
In every potentially sexual interaction, there is a moment at which the decision is made as to which strategy will be employed. The timing of that moment and the basis for the choice are critical elements that few of us notice or recognize, yet this is exactly the knowledge that needs to become commonly recognized.
There are elements that can be identified, details that are observable in real time that reveal which of the two mating strategies is in play. One of the most useful details is easily assessed after the fact, an odd artifact of the difference in the two behaviors.
We refer to this as the metric difference, a dramatic gap in the measure of the quality of the experience. The simplest estimate of this is merely the timing of the core element, the actual sexual contact. Primitive strategy encounters are brief, an unavoidable element of the inherited models. Modern strategy encounters are long by comparison, long enough to allow a woman some pleasure.
Put this sort of information up front in sex Ed, and maybe it would begin to work.
4
“I don’t want to, but I guess I’ll let you.” Doesn't seem like a mutually pleasurable encounter, or fulfilling for either party, but it sounds like consent to me.
143
That’s about you not understanding consent. Notably, the man in the article who described this realized his actions didn’t reflect the affirmative consent he proclaimed to believe in, even if he didn’t acknowledge it as assault.
30
@Rocky: It might be consent but I hope most men would stop at this point.
8
@Rocky ...and therein lies the problem.
13
This article does not address the fact that too many young women give mixed signals and take no responsibility for their actions. Also, many of these new #MeToo cases rely on hearsay/testimonial evidence. If you've been assaulted or raped, report it immediately and have a rape kit done.
49
@Juh CLU: If you're getting mixed signals, then stop. Also many women do report and it goes nowhere.Short of serious injuries, it's usually seen as he said, she said. And how many forensic rape kits (from women who have reported and gone through this invasive evidence collection) sit unprocessed on shelves? this indicates the lack of interest in prosecuting these cases.
117
@Juh CLU: If I were getting mixed signals from a male partner, I wouldn't plow ahead. I'd stop and ask what's going on. It's not that difficult to respect another human being.
182
@Anne What do we do about the situation where an ardently interested male retreats in the face of mixed signals, then later gets chastised for not showing enough "desire?" It's not uncommon.
18
The author seems very unaware that consent is a fraught issue for men and women who both perpetuate confusion by simply being too bashful or too dependent on alcohol to have adult encounters. How often have you heard the old saw, that you are just supposed to intuit the moment of first kiss, not ask, and how often is romanticism with tropes of passion and fate, reflected back in the culture? It's a pitty that she lays the blame solely at the feet of men without charting the ways in which puritanism and romanticism pervade the American sexual ethos as a whole and remain the prevailing paradigm.
119
@Will
Its not that complicated. Use your words. Ask. If you are relying on intuition you aren't getting actual consent.
22
@Christopher I think consent is a rather feint hearted forray that doesn't dare dream very big things for man woman connectivity or dare imagine the thicket of conflicting messages our society promulgates (all the while avoiding addressing the subject of alcoholic malaise). Perhaps discourse like a brute Force instrument, a Puritan Perseus looking into his shield to encounter the sexual Gorgon?
1
Women often use this topic to define men as being inherently worse than women. Men seem to range from denying that it is an issue to beating themselves up.
Men and women are equal - not the same, but equal. This means that they each have equal capability to behave in ways that society deems good or bad.
Men who are hurt inside, are the ones who sexually abuse both men and women. Hating and blaming men does not fix this. Proper, compassionate psychological treatment which allows the offender to process their old pain, to learn to understand and love themselves, and so be able to acknowledge what they have done to another, is the answer.
Society as a whole needs to address how we raise our children. It must be with love, compassion, understanding and respect. This how we tackle this issue and so many others including climate change. If we do not respect, listen to and love our children, why will they listen to others?
It is easy to blame and to label, but it is not the answer.
22
@B
Car thieves are probably hurt inside and might benefit from therapy too. But if one steals your car you are free to "hate and blame" them for stealing your car.
2
@B. You state that men who sexually abuse others are “hurt inside.” It would be helpful if you could be more specific about what you mean by “hurt inside.”
2
Is there any scientific (or substantial historical or cultural) evidence) that male of homo sapiens have at all any doubts or misgivings about having sex (coitus) the previous night?
And if they have them, are they statistically speaking comparable in numbers and frequency to those of females of the specie?
Rudimentary, now probably outdated, chauvinistic interpretation of evolutionary biology suggests, as I understand, that females are more hesitant, more careful, more having doubts about sexual acts, especially that which might (despite due precaution on both sides) lead to pregnancy, because unlike males, they might be the one with rather profound consequences (which profoundly affect not only their bodies, mind, sense of well-being and a rather broad array of other concerns and relationships).
It is more than the obvious difference in number of ovarian eggs and fertility years versus number of sperms, but is is profound influence on sexual behavior and attitudes.
Males, again not mainly due to social construct but primarily due to pesky biological facts, don't and can't, even when highly enlighten, sensitive, etc. have, feel and act on similar concerns.
16
@Refugee from East Euro communism-Thank you for acknowledging the profound influence of evolution on the human psyche and our relationships. By not considering the forces that shaped our neurology, modern feminism, and specifically the #metoo movement, is examining these issues with a blind eye. I would beg to differ that the view you offered is an "outdated, chauvinistic interpretation of evolutionary biology". It is very relevant to how we interpret male-female interaction. Just why do men contemplate sex on the whole differently than women? Why are men much more likely to interpret mixed signals as complete consent? Why are women more reticent in pushing for the first move? You alluded to it above: differences in parental investment and evolutionary fitness capacity. The modern feminist movement espouses view that are rooted in a blank slate, the power of social constructs. They are denying a tremendous source of insight into the human condition that can help their cause to end suffering.
8
@Alex
I didn't mean that "outdated, chauvinistic interpretation of evolutionary biology" seriously, only as a preventive diffusion of (in this era almost inevitable) assault from the well known corners.
To close: As Western population is (from historical prospective) dying out due to its low birth rates while the majority of the rest of the world, specifically Sub-Saharan Africa is - and per U.N. demographic study will, unlike other parts of the world where education and availability of birth control led to significant drop in fertility, continue the high birth rates, "for foreseeable future", the globally applied democratic principle: one life = one vote will deliver resolution that even Bill Gates himself is becoming worry about.
4
@Refugee from East Euro communism
We certainly have to deal with the biology of sex and cannot just set it aside, and say: "oh, no! we are better than that". Evolutionarily, the best chance for women to favor their DNA, is to select the best male able to protect their offspring. You use your egg with that man. If it fails, you will use another one with another man or with the same man, but it takes time. For men, depending on the specific situation, the best option has often (not always) been to spread as many sperms on as many eggs as possible. We have now in large part overcome biological evolution, but we still have to deal with fragments of that history in our brains.
1
The most important fact is overlooked in how so many men treat women. The problem arises when women are treated as objects. But relations between men and women were not always that way. How did this dehumanization occur? Patriarchy arose hand in hand with capitalism. Capitalism treats not only women as objects, it deals with all of Creation as "raw material" to be manipulated for the most selfish of reasons. It sacrifices all other considerations on the altar of greed. And out of control greed cannot help but lead to cruelty. No wonder, then, that women are demeaned and considered subservient. No wonder they're heedlessly batted around. No amount of equal wages or sensitivity training will solve this problem until humanity finds its way back to the balance between men and women which existed for untold centuries, for the most part, in pre-capitalist societies.
21
@free range Men are plenty treated as objects, by women and by men. It is common for men to be treated as love objects. To deny that is operating on a double standard.
24
@free range : In some history I have read, women were kidnapped, stolen, raped, kept as concubines, slaves, traded for goods, or otherwise bartered. And this is just known history, and capitalism at it's essence is a trade of something for something. When is this precapitalistic society you are writing about? In the abstract, women chose men for their ability and inclination to help care for offspring. Men may have rather different ideas on what women can be used for at times (in the abstract) Civilization progresses slowly, as we can see, and education, sensitivity, transparency on sexual issues concerning behavior is what is needed now, not in the abstract.
5
@Curious
"History" is a word for the civilization I was talking about. Before history -- before capitalism (though it wasn't always called that) -- check it out. Communal life for the most part meant parity between men and women.
2
The whole issue of consent is about coming up with a very complex answer to the question, "When is it okay for two people to have sex?" The very simple answer given to me by my church is "When they are married to each other."
While this doesn't completely eliminate the consent problem, two people who love each other unconditionally and are committed to sharing a life together are going to have a much easier time navigating this issue. Everyone else would be better off developing authentic friendships and working hard to promote one friendship in particular into a lifelong relationship of love and mutual respect if they feel called to do so.
22
@Mark marriage and consent are orthogonal. It is hopefully true that a married couple communicates more easily and freely, but that merely makes communicating about consenting easier — it has nothing to do with whether consent is required.
25
Mark,
The institution of marriage does not a safe, loving, committed relationship make, even if those involved profess or believe it to be. In any kind of relationship, long or short, casual or committed, someone can violate their partner just as easily and without prior warning; sexual inexperience and lack of knowledge or interest in their partner’s preferences and safety only compound this.
Marriage should never be used as a gauge or a salve for the likelihood of abuse.
57
@Mark
In hook up era, for decades cultivated by Cosmopolitan and popular "culture" make both women and men bodies "objects", like trying new model of consumer goods for a night or couple of nights.
It is being sold to us as (especially women) liberation.
9
I never had any success with women but fortunately at 28 married and had a couple of kids. In the movies(brat pack era) it seemed that the guys who were good in sports and had good careers and were nice would automatically get women to give an "enthusiastic yes" so I got good grades, developed into a good football/baseball player, got a professional career, volunteered and got nothing! In fact my friends who were a little "edgy" seemed to have much more success. I am not sure I ever had an enthusiatic "yes" even from my wife! The human race does survive although the birth rate is way down, schools are closing etc. I guess at 60 married for 32 years I will never get a chance to get an "enthusiastic yes" like in the brat pack movies. Oh well. I think we were better off in my father/uncle's day when they returned from WW2, went to work at a factory, somehow met a "dame", got married , had a couple of kids and forgot about sex! My father, uncles were not as good at school or sports as I was, but somehow they married nice women and lived a great live.
24
That enthusiastic "Yes!" is another tell - it's most commonly a response to a primitive strategy exploit, the female's effort to ensure the male (now revealed as a dangerous predator) won't misunderstand her response as signaling reluctance, and actualize his predatory nature.
The aspect of this common behavior, and others like,it, that caused us the most difficulty 'decoding' is the obvious fact that females must recognize the primitive strategy exploit in order to respond, yet few are consciously aware of what exactly they're responding to.
Even those who are willing to acknowledge their response usually aren't willing to contemplate using that information to escape the exploit.
T&K
1
@arthur
As that ever clever Bill Clinton used to say, "I feel your pain".
At middle and high school I noticed that simple, "cool" guys got interest and "dates" from girls I was even afraid to ask for going to movies.
To my children, starting with (more than two) boys, I used to say "Make it simple". And if you are really interested in some, ask them again in week or two. Don't take no or apparent excuses as the final verdict. Smile, relax, don't look needy and in that week or two renew that offer with new movie or activity.
Interestingly enough, my 6th grade "girlfriend" wondered at one of our school reunions that I was "shy around girls" yet ended up with raising and enjoying more than twice as many children than the average family has.
4
@Refugee from East Euro communism
"Don't take no or apparent excuses as the final verdict. Smile, relax, don't look needy and in that week or two renew that offer with new movie or activity."
Having been on the receiving end of that kind of behavior - I hope you also taught your sons when to STOP asking. "Just keep pestering her until she gives in" is harassment.
7
The article is true in that there are a deranged demographic of men who take for the sake of taking...to heck with the consequences; however, what about the women's delayed accusations? I also agree that the women's statements, in many cases decades later, ring with more credibility than the men's denials, but "what if" the man isn't guilty? We've allowed the "Me Too" movement to completely deprived men of "due process" which may ensnare an innocent or two. What exactly is an innocent man supposed to do in face of an undesirable fabrication of the truth decades after the alleged incident? Can things be done to adjust the man's interpretation of appropriate sexual behavior? By all means yes; however, women can use a little re-education themselves and act out in real-time in hopes of, not only bringing the man to justice, but prevent him from preying on another women in the subsequent decades.
13
@David
False accusations (of any kind) are rare. The people who make them tend to fit a narrow and identifiable profile (though that profile also describes vulnerable people who are often also likely targets of assaults). Their stories also have certain distinguishing characteristics typically fall apart quickly. Sandra Newman has written a couple very good articles on the results of systematic research on the phenomena of false sexual misconduct allegations.
Long delayed accusations are virtually never false. And contrary to the anxieties of so many men, they also are commonly disregarded and rarely result in serious consequences for the accused. Brett Kavanaugh was very credibly accused of serial sexual misconduct and was subsequently approved for a seat on the U.S. Supreme Court.
The idea that to simply be accused of something is to be denied "due process" is ridiculous. People who have been victimized have a right to talk about it even if they are unable to prove it in a criminal proceeding. Similarly, the genuinely falsely accused have the right to sue those that slander them.
In view of how supposedly damaging such accusations are, it is striking how few men who threaten to take their accusers to court actually do.
This doesn't mean that innocent people don't sometimes suffer as a result of false accusations, but that is true of every class of crime.
20
@Christopher
The lack of men seeking address through the courts after the rise of decades old accusations is probably due largely to the fact that at that juncture, with zero material evidence to support their case, it's his word v. hers. Women make far more sympathetic subjects. More needs to be done to convey to women the importance of being much more timely in their accusations to serve the good of all.
2
@Christopher
And I naively thought that the highest principle of our society and court system is to rather let one possible perpetrator unpunished than have one unjustly imprisoned.
4
It’s almost like the most intimate act most of us ever perform is fraught with risk.
25
@William Mansfield
"Almost" doesn't begin to cover the risk for girls and women.
34
@William Mansfield
Of course it is! Precisely because it is the most intimate act and risk anyone can take. As a woman deciding if I would let a man take off my clothes was both titillating and terrifying, It was mostly terrifying because no matter how much I thought I knew him, I could never know exactly what was going on in his mind. It will always be a leap of faith and trust. I’m thankful I’m married 30 plus years. To be single and dating again is not something I want to ever experience again.
22
@fast/furious
Who, who made it so, that, concerning worries and all kinds of huge and multiple unwanted consequences of sexual act (specifically coitus) female of homo sapiens specie have much more to consider than males?
Who designed female, not males, to risk to get pregnant? To have a tiny number of ovarian eggs compared to untold millions of male sperms?
So, when we can reasonably expect that prevalence of ambiguity or various degrees of uncertainty of having a sex that night (or night before) will be roughly same between (heterosexual) women and men?
My answer? Another say million years providing that this time Mother Nature and her sister, "Ultimately Wise Evolution" will decide that either just males or both females and males will be able to get pregnant thus provide for continuation of the specie.
Only then both females and males would have similar enough things to consider and be concerned about when possible sex encounter might arise.
Our modern sexual orthodoxy has two contradictory claims.
The first is that sex is a kind of individualist entertainment, meaningless insofar as it is an expression of personal taste and an act of healthy consumption and bodily pleasure, something entertaining and safe that should be exercised frequently and proudly - like yoga in the park, or dancing. The inconvenient linkage to children and family is obliterated through the birth control pill or the weapons of abortion.
The second claim is that sex is inherently dangerous and predatory (especially with relation to men), and so it should be bureaucratized, and regulated, with electronic contracts and consent forms and affirmative, enthusiastic, sober, verbal consent for every touch. The new Victorians write guidelines for human sexuality that nobody reads or lives by.
Many older religious traditions like Judaism or Christianity offer a much healthier (and pleasurable!) vision for human sexuality. It is a beautiful gift that can be safely enjoyed in the context of marriage. It is ordered towards children and family and permanent bonds of love, respect, and fidelity, as opposed to the predations of a convenient hookup. It treats other people, and their bodies, as an end and a human being worthy of respect and total union, not just as a means for temporary self-gratification.
CS Lewis comes to mind: "We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful."
52
@James - Meanwhile and traditionally, much of the sex within marriage is uncaring, selfish, or unsatisfying especially when the partners are sexually uninitiated. This is borne out by the incidence of cheating, divorce, and unplanned pregnancy. CS Lewis is understood to be a fantasist and his church a club of molestation. A vision can be, because it is a vision, practically perfect. Reality is very different.
7
@James
Very well said, indeed!
Thank you.
3
Bingo. The contradictory nature of the two built-in human mating strategies is the most compelling argument for their serious study.
The seemingly non-existent recognition of this attribute of mating behavior, other than the most superficial, is the second most compelling reason to look at this stuff with whatever tools are available.
Finding the tools is the next most interesting problem. It's no wonder we've been at this since 1967.
We're still going. We still find new ways to attack this problem at least two or three times a year.
We're not tired yet.
--T&K
2
"the current 'yes means yes' standard"
So we punish those who used the old standard when the old standard was still in effect?
12
@JND--Yes, certainly, because the old standard was predatory.
43
@JND
Does the fact that the old standard was old make it ok? Correct morals don’t change over time in my book.
2
No, because “yes means yes” is not a legal standard, it is a title IX college standard for expulsions only (at least today).
I fully understand what "no" means when I dated a young woman. No is no. Just ask my wife of 55 years. She 19, me 20 when we hooked up for life.
Couldn't be happier.
25
OK, you've got us beat by a bit.
Those kind of numbers are a great indicator of which mating strategy you both chose, the modern one.
Unlike the primitive strategy, the modern strategy requires both parties to make the same choices, ultimately using a neural construct called an 'intimately converged web'.
If you've been together that long, you know exactly what we're referring to. We can predict that with great confidence, simply because of these principles: the only way to accomplish such a feat is to use neural structures that naturally generate web-like forms, all successful neural models are well-converged, and any two people communicating in an intimate relationship will be uncomfortable if any part of their shared reality fails to converge on exactly the same form.
Unconverged models make for restless hosts. The restlessness persists until there's enough learned to bring the model into convergence. Much of the turmoil couples such as yourself endure is simply this, 'restless host syndrome'. You're trying to correct something that needs correcting, a good thing despite the perception of others, or even yourselves.
Everybody goes through this, despite little formal theory or professional recognition of the cause. This will change, too.
So: Congrats. Well done. --T&K
This is another example of how patriarchal society’s influence is alive and well. In men and women.
Can’t say I have an inkling as to how we might change attitudes in the 21st century. I don’t believe equality or respect can be ingrained in men and women by laws, which are often ignored.
And, women have to take responsibility too.
If you, a woman, engaged in some sort of sexual activity implying you were a willing partner, please do not claim you were sexually assaulted. You cannot and should not have it both ways. First date or 20th.
49
Going along with sex when you kinda don’t want to isn’t quite as clear cut as rape. But it’s also not quite ok, is it? Keep in mind that a lot of young women go along with pushy and unpleasant sex out of fear that saying no will lead to a violent, injurious rape. Consent has to mean saying yes, not just lying there without fighting.
9
@c That is just the problem - what exactly is "sexual implying you were a willing partner"? A kiss, dancing, some fondling? How about holding hands? I know women who have been assaulted after doing those things, even though they wanted to go no further. So what you are saying is that on any date, the first or the twentieth, where a women doesn't want to have sex, she must refrain from any physical contact at all. How about when a woman says to stop, the man stops?
10
How do I begin to say that there are good men out here who really exist? There have been days when I’ve gotten out of bed, listened to the news, and seen my therapist - who is a woman - and told her that I’m ashamed to be a man. And yet it is true that there are men out here who really respect and value women. How can I convince anyone?
55
@Bill--Just be one of those men.
72
@Susan - thank you; I will be.
24
@Bill you are agreed with, by me, officially. AND, as the writer says, given the cultural privilege and permission males have, good men, even very good men, still cross the line, assault, don't get that women are still often under male control so much in their daily lives that it is somewhat easy for men to dominate, etc. so, yes, yr a good guy. I am too. And, I have taken advantage, or rather, I did, until I finally became really and fully aware. How old was I? 60!!!!
7
Why can’t we as a species acknowledge that the act of penetration is one of male violence? That gestation being a female function is the ultimate male privilege? We must insist that substantial advance permission (say, a minimum of one hour) be clearly and vocally granted by the woman and before any physical contact and that it becomes the legal standard for a rape prosecution and furthermore that in the absence of proof of meeting this requirement, conviction must be summary and immediate.
24
@From Where I Sit
This must be a parody.
35
@From Where I Sit
Maybe certified mail ?
No should mean no -- and it should be loud and long
3
@From Where I Sit In Aldous Huxley's novel "Brave New World," conception and gestation take place in bottles. Both penetration and gestation are removed from the process, and thus reproduction takes place upon a plane of absolute equality. A better way, I am sure.
5
Let’s just state it bluntly: They know what consent is, they don’t care. After all, it’s usually He said, She said. Not some stranger behind a dumpster, or a future Frat boy, beer drinking Nominee.
It’s the “ regular “ guy, at a party, a student, or a co-worker. The boy next door, not Ted Bundy, but a Slayer OF consent, innocence and autonomy. Enough.
Call the real Police. Immediately.
287
@Phyliss Dalmatian ...and recall that the future Frat boy, beer drinking Nominee got his dream job. And Dr. Blasey Ford is still under police protection and can't live in her own home... So much for accountability.
24
@Phyliss Dalmatian The police don't care. Look at the stats on rapists who are actually prosecuted. It's almost zero.
17
@Phyliss Dalmatian Yep, men don't care because they feel they are entitled to whatever they want.
9
Well, how were these problems dealt with in the past? Men have been this way for thousands of years.
In previous centuries, men who acted badly were scorned, ostracised, and even beaten up by other men. The woman's father and brothers would come looking for you, and consequences were not pleasant.
Such sanction resulted in generally gentlemanly behavior towards most women. Yes, they had many problems in the 19th century such as slavery and prostitution, but they managed to keep bad behavior confined to a small segment of society. The general run of men were rather inhibited in their behavior towards women, and tried to avoid being considered a cad and a lowlife.
This is not so true today. The sexual and political revolutions of the 60s, unfortunately, threw out traditional values without providing a satisfactory replacement that can actually do the job. Men are no longer afraid to do whatever they want, and there is very little to stop them.
30
@Jonathan Really? Based upon what evidence? Perhaps "stranger rape" wasn't as common (except in war time or against women who had no societal standing, like the poor or women of color) and "date rape" was rare, but you forget the other situations in which women and girls have historically be victimized and society has failed to predict them. Those situations include within marriage, within the family, and within the church.
158
@Jonathan Really? Based upon what evidence? Perhaps "stranger rape" wasn't as common (except in war time or against women who had no societal standing, like the poor or women of color) and "date rape" was rare, but you forget the other situations in which women and girls have historically be victimized and society has failed to *protect* them. Those situations include within marriage, within the family, and within the church.
7
@Jonathan
Sometimes men would be scorned, depending on the social status of the man and the woman involved. Sometimes the woman's account would be dismissed as her own fault, if for example the husband had business dealings with the bad actor.
There were penalties about talking in public about these matters except by gossip, and even greater penalties for going outside the family, so we do not really know what went on beyond that the society did not want to know and kept secret what went on. We have no good idea of how much incest goes on in our own society, much less how much went on a hundred years ago when frank discussion was censored.
One reason this censorship occurs is so that people can claim that acting badly did not go on or was limited to "those people" who are different from and inferior to us. And the censorship works for many, and allows them to believe that times of public sexual repression have less acting badly.
31
I highly recommend the short PSA video called "Tea and Consent". Made by a British police force, it uses the analogy of forcing someone to drink tea against their will.
It is the clearest explanation of sexual consent that I have ever seen.
516
Thank you for that recommendation, @HN. It's a brilliant, engaging video and ought to be required viewing for everyone.
57
@HN I just took the ball on this and ran with it. I looked up "Tea and Consent" and wholeheartedly endorse it as required viewing for every incoming Jr High class, every freshman clash in HS and in college/university. I do hope that others will do a look up on the little video, it is just 2 minutes and 50 seconds. It is on Youtube so there is not a valid reason not to view it.
70
@HN
It was wonderful. Even a Trump could understand.
31
I agree that men usually are less often confused about consent than they may claim. However, the situations described in this article - which seem to be sober, adult women acquiescing to sex without coercion that would try the resolution of a person of reasonable determination would probably not qualify as sexual assault in most US jurisdictions. I agree with these laws (partly quoted above.) I would further expect that more determined resistance would have stopped these acts. So, I would urge such resistance sooner.
34
@Rolfe You should watch the Tea and Consent video. A woman is reasonably expected to say no when she wants to, and how she wants to. If the man isn't sure, then he can assume she isn't saying yes.
12
@Rolfe No. The men have a duty to know if they have actual consent. Does "I don't want to but I guess." really sound like "Yes, I want to" to you? Hence the slogan, "Yes means yes." The man in that case wore her down with his requests -- verbal pressuring IS a form of coercion. The woman later asked him to stop his activity, and he ignored her. That is rape. It's nonsense the women should be wholly responsible for establishing consent.
8
I definitely felt pressured to say yes back in 1969. I was eighteen and had just graduated high school. I know I am not the only young woman who experienced that fifty years ago. What alarms me is that even more women are experiencing pressure to say yes now! And it is unconscionable that men can't figure out how to put the breaks on if the woman says no!
163
@BSR
I would bet that not only statistically significant experience of humankind, spread over the millennia, but also modern era scientific research in one way or another, yet consistently suggest and even provide evidence that, in general, but to a significant degree, women are less interested and less eager tin anything leading to immediate physical consummation of sexual act. This seems to be clearly so despite Cosmopolitan blaring at them (and men alike) at supermarket cashier station how Hot Hot sexual encounters women are seeking ASAP and then again.
Thus the room for misunderstanding and worse is there, almost always.
Or can we argue that in general more developed and present sense of modesty among women, also as manifestation of generally lower risk taking attitude to many life situations, is a social construct and has nothing to do with evolutionary forces affecting homo sapiens?
6
I had not considered that in the heat of the movement, with hormones abound, some boys and men truly don’t understand that their actions and beliefs have parted ways. Certainly not an excuse, but this reality should be part of the explanation and analysis. Sex drive is powerful and warps perception for both genders, but it really seems to change “good guys” into “bad guys” an awful lot. People who commit sexual assault may be monsters, but it may be a good lesson for us all to recognize we have a monster within us that must be civilized.
250
@Rill - Well said! There seldom appears to be nuanced commentary along these lines.
I'm not referring to those out-of-control males who assault and force. I suspect you're thinking similarly. We need less preaching and more recognition of the primordial and powerful urge of the male to procreate .... and how it might be controlled. Couple that with the female partner who doesn't want to go further but doesn't want to stop and you have a recipe for trouble.
"A monster within us." I wouldn't go that far although the male impulse can and does lead to monstrous acts.
16
Well
I don’t generally feel like sexually assaulting another person even in “ the heat of the moment”, This seems more of male preview ,
But I agree
We are all capable of anything.
5
@Rill
"An awful lot?" Some statistics would be helpful here. An awful lot of gross generalizations are just that.
1