In the US, if you join the military they're going to run genetic analysis. If you're arrested and absolutely, if you're convicted, again your genes are going to be defined. Some healthcare systems do it too. And they don't always rely on informed consent.
So this article condemns the Chinese for running mass genetics studies while understanding that in the US this is being done too.
22
How arrogant ,stupid and greedy is Dr. Kidd. Wined and dined by the Chinese secret police, he is their willing executioner. How similar is this to IBM working with the Nazis to organize genetic trees from birth records during the roll up to ww2. How is his behaviour not part of a crime against humanity. He requires the full force of Justice.
7
The Communists demand compulsory DNA for a secret data base.
In the Western Capitalist democracy you must be either a convicted criminal or curious enough to shell out $49.95 to share your DNA with your family and said democracy's secret data base.Eventually everyone will know everyone else's data as a matter of medical ethics.
2
Didn't know that Orwell was such popular reading in Chinese government circles.
5
Nothing surprises me when it comes to China. A large and evil country run by monsters that are not trying to control just their people, but the peoples, resources, and economies of the world. Why, again, do they and Russia have a seat at the UN table?
11
PC aside, are folks noticing how almost every article concerning China contains bad news?
Suppression of ethnic minorities like the Uighurs and Tibetans.
Dissenters jailed or worse.
Stealing corporate secrets from foreign firms, or only allowing them entry to Chinese markets if they agree to divulge their patents.
Military encroachments in the South China Sea.
Hacking of our computer systems.
Not worth all the tea in China now, is it?
6
The Uighurs are being interned for re-education. Where is the outcry? Why are no Muslim nations speaking up? Why are there no boycott movements? Why is there not an article every day on the first page of the NY Times to confront this terrible injustice?
It appears that the world, including students on college campuses, fear China and her position in the world.
On the other hand, a country the size of NJ that happens to be 75% Jewish is still fighting for its right to exist, whilst the Chinese abuses go unchallenged.
So here it is folks, the double standard.
10
the Chinese have been oppressing torturing and starving their quote ethnic minorities unquote for decades. I believe it is a matter of national pride more than Muslim fear.
7
My assignment on a trip taken in 2001 was to survey the condition of China's 56 ethnic groups (57 with the ruling Han or Mandarin clan). Colorful tour guides published in Beijing show happy ethnic groups smiling and posing in their traditional garb. The text speaks of autonomy and mutual respect between groups. Though China is touchy about allowing outsiders admission to various autonomous provinces, access was still possible fifteen years ago. It does not take long, however, for an objective observer to see that some are more equal than others. Nowadays, in Tibet, where once there was a rather fierce campaign to destroy all manner of religious works, the ever practical Chinese now acknowledge the value of such artifacts in tourist dollars. Uighurs are Muslims, however, and the relative calm that prevails in Tibet is not so easy to achieve. In Turpan, where a conference of Uighur English teachers was taking place, one saw me observing and approached me. Without any introduction, he looked me in the eye and said, "You'll tell people when you get back home, won't you? Please." I said that I would, and for lo these many years I have done my best. The Chinese government's treatment of Uighurs, their language and culture seems another example of how a once colonized people can so easily take on the role of oppressive colonial administrators.
13
As a biochemistry professor working on DNA metabolic processes, I've gotten 2-5 emails per day over the past 10 years inviting me (as an honored guest no less) to participate in conferences and projects on DNA technology, DNA breakthroughs, DNA frontiers, or some such DNA blah blah topic, in China. The same is true for many of my colleagues. We've treated these offers of full-expense-paid trips exactly as what they are - scams, or worse, bribes - not worth the electrons they're printed on. Worse than that Nigerian prince, who after all only trafficked in money, not human rights.
Dr. Kidd needs to ask himself how he can make repairs for his thoughtlessness and ethical lapses.
433
@DNA Girl
I am not sure I would be so quick to criticize another professor hiding behind your username- DNA Girl. Technology is frequently used inappropriately- are the inventors of these tools to be held accountable?
15
@David L Agree, this type of direct attack on another academic should not be made anonymously.
9
@Anson and @David L
I apologize for appearing to hide behind an old username that I haven't updated.
I also protest at your characterizing my suggestion that Dr. Kidd review his actions as a "direct attack". I applaud and actively support collaborative science. And, especially as a foreign-born scientist in the US, I am strongly in favor of promoting research and educational opportunities all over the world. Finally, I have no particular animus toward China or any other country. Far from it.
My beef is with the appearance of conflicts of interest and grave concern that there may have been red (ugh, bad pun, sorry!) flags missed/ignored (note: based solely on the information provided in this article). And I wanted to share my experience of how widespread full-expense-paid invitations are, even to academics who are far from being as accomplished and illustrious as Dr. Kidd.
Best,
Manju Hingorani
80
I suggest that all those people who are upset at China's actions show their displeasure by boycotting anything made in China.
7
This is Red China, i.e. socialist China, doing socialist things, as it has done for decades. Why the sudden surprise?
6
I would like to make a note. The Chinese gongshan hasn't been Marxist-Leninist Communism. It's a corrupt translation of Communism, encompassing historical colonialism and racial supremacy.
Pleae, re-read Chinese dynasty history, as well as the Chinese gongshan resolutions..
5
Double standard is not acceptable. China collects DNA data to contribute worldwide public database such as 1000 Genomes Project & Allele Frequency Database and for research. But China also uses them to identify and combat Uighurs terrorists. Human right is a very fragile in practice. We use it when we need it. We drop it when we don't. Cases in point that Washington Post's Jamal Khashoggi murderred in Turky and Guantanamo bay prisoners without trail are good examples to ignore human right. We need to be consistent in our evaluation.
China has been detaining Uighurs and collecting their DNA samples, which, authorities say, are used for genetic profiling – a process that aims to classify ethnic groups. Given the totalitarian political system in China and its endeavour to preserve the ethnic identity of the majority Han population and its culture, it raises the question how far would China go if its persecution of Uighurs left unchecked?
Bioethicists should worry and the UN must enact laws that regulate the genetic and genomic technologies in medical research and practice.
History has shown how the Nazi-regime implemented the laws of genetics, under the pretext of improving the health of its people. Central to these laws was racial hygiene and its biological determinism: “the view that humans live and behave as they do by virtue of their biological constitution, and, ultimately, their genes.”
Another one was the Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour, which purported the “racial inferiority” of Jews, considerable minorities of the population were defined as being “biologically” of minor value, with the implication that they lost most or all of their civil rights, and were easily available as “research material”.
7
I think we need a technology Bill of Rights that spells out ethical uses of our DNA, finger prints, urine, online footprint, and whatever else. HIPPA and other consent protections just don't cut it. The Chinese have just taken use of personal markers to the level of control imagined in Orwell's 1984 over populations whose land they have invaded. Russia is still doing it the old-fashioned way with tanks and prisons. In the U.S. our employers can fingerprint us, demand urine samples, check us against criminal databases and never actually explain what happens to our data if we leave their employ. Do they sell it to gerrymandering for-sale businesses? Who knows? In short, we have a powerful way to help enforce the law with no predictive ability about who will commit crimes like mass shootings, but we are not prepared, anymore than we were and are with Facebook to control its misuse. Finally, without the free flow of scientific information, what is science but a new form of propaganda? Eugenics, anyone? Chinese scientists should speak out against their government or risk mistrust of their motives.
3
Naive to think that all the worlds governments won't be doing this eventually. The numbers of humans on this planet is not shrinking. Here in the US we are close with Ancenstry, 23&me and any number of other 'voluntary' data bases.
3
Every one of us who enjoy western democracies have a hand in helping the Chinese Communist Party over the past several decades.
Every time we purchase Chinese goods out of price and/or convenience we build up their network of state control and their ever-growing military.
The so-called "experts" told us not to be too worried after the Tienanmen Square debacle. We were told that commerce ( and later the internet) would eventually bring freedom to the subjects of the Chinese dictatorship.
And we bought it, just like our ancestors bought snake oil 150 years ago because we wanted it to be true.
Before this year is out, mainland China will march into Taiwan and the West will shrug it off completely.
Progressives will rationalize this as being no different than the North fighting the South to preserve the Union during our own Civil War. ( even conservatives who long for the days of the old South will jump on this bandwagon)
Conservatives will argue that it's not our business and will point out that our economy depends on China.
If China is smart, they'll invade Taiwan either during the Academy Awards for the NCAA basketball tournament. The invasion coverage will be relegated to a few paragraphs in "other news".
2
@Kevin O'Reilly
I pray for the democratic Taiwan and its 23 million people. They are fiercely independent and proud, yet kind, civil, well educated with unusual humility and dignity. These are Han descendants, same as mainland Han, but their society and achievements are in a class far above most developed countries. They are kind to each other and to foreigners. The contrast to communist China is stark and shocking. If the Communist China invades the Taiwan China and erases this wonderful light of Asian democracy, we will all suffer the consequences. If we prevent that dark and tragic outcome by any means necessary, humanity will be envigorated with that hope, justice and right. Can we walk the talk of the Taiwan Relations Act and other commitments to Taiwan? We must.
4
Too much fear, greed or ego leads to countless problems. The Chinese government lives in fear , companies are motivated by desire for profit and often greed as are many individuals. Our ego wants satisfaction so we create nuclear weapons just to show how smart we are claiming I am only a scienctist and will never use the power. Fear and greed cannot be fed enough to be placated and ego knows no limits.
Once knowledge exists, it's inevitable that it will be used in ways it was not originally intended. We may be dismayed by China's use of covert DNA collection to track and control one group of another. But we shouldn't be surprised.
2
Let’s face it American corporations will do anything for money and I do mean any thing! Sounds like IBM all over again.
3
Now they can reverse engineer thermo fisher equipment and make their own,then market it to other oppressive governments. China along with Russia are the worlds most adept reverse engineers. It is why there are technology bans, and why greater scrutiny should be placed upon technology firms who get into bed with hostile countries. Hostile to their own countrymen.
5
@William There are many of these instruments on the resale market. In fact, I know a company that sells refurbished instruments to the US and China. I don’t think it’s within reasonable expectations that Thermo Fisher can control sales to China.
1
The USA has committed a grave mistake when it decided to sell secret scientific tools to China. There will be a day the Zhongnanhai war criminals use them to attack us.
Look at the weapons and carrier they purchased from Russia and Ukraine. All have been modified by Beijing to threaten the world peace.
The DNA technics would pose a great danger to the Americans in the future. The poor Ughurs have been in a genocidal hunt for decades.
1
So this is rather scary. What I kept wondering though as I read the article is where are all of the calls for BDS against China? Where are the college protests? Why is the UN not sanctioning China for their actions? Why is an insane amount of negative attention paid to Israel which does none of what China does to it's own Muslim minority? Maybe China is just too big a fish to fry so it's easier to attack a country the size of New Jersey? Just wondering.......... Also wondering if the NYT will dare to print this........
1
I hope Dr. Kidd and the folks at Thermo Fisher are happy with their money.
1
For these companies and individuals to plead ignorance is stunning. That is the sort of denial for bad behavior we’d expect from a Roger Stone. It is like Facebook claiming it never even considered the obvious dark side of the social media technology despite their own dubious deployment of it. What sort of American corporate/university funded fool could read about the Chinese interest in using DNA to identify ethnic sub-groups and then not consider how their technology will be combined with other tech and redeployed by different segments of the Chinese (or any authoritarian paranoid system for that matter) society for dark, very dark, ends? Even the merest passing acquaintance with Man’s willingness to employ any weapon at hand in wars, conflicts, and so called ‘research’ should give anyone serious doubts that the sort knowledge the fools mentioned above passed on to the totalitarian Chinese state won’t be weaponized. At the very least the mere existence of the research to use DNA to identify ethnic sub-groups means they are well under way with the processes to establish the feasibility of such weapons. Sadly, nuclear weapons are going to have to be around for a long time as a deterrent for more than just other nuke attacks.
Just to obtain a visa to live in Beijing they take blood, sonogram, x-Ray, eye check, urine check. You feel like a mouse in a maze, all ex-pats submit to this madness. And they update every year, with your visa renewal. Much as I loved living there and the people are lovely, I was happy when we finally left.
3
"May I see my checkup results?"
"Ask the police" - says it all. To the leaders life is cheap.
The Great Firewall can never stop information from Xinjiang showing the world China’s police state. VPNs may be illegal now but there are Uighurs all around the world who will continue to expose how the communists are trying to destroy what vestiges of their religion and culture are still barely allowed. No matter how the government tries to spin this, followers of Islam and Christianity continue to be rounded up, arrested for subversion of state power, or disappeared, along with their families. When I taught Uighurs in China, they told me how they could never get passports without denouncing Islam to the police, who have waved fingers in their faces calling them terrorists who follow a terrorist religion.
This, of course they will never do, and the police know that. They long to study overseas, but can only dream about it. By now the university students of the same age I taught have never heard of gmail (at least for now), BBC, CNN, democracy, video of parents gunned by down by the PLA who showed up at Tiananmen the day after for the crime of looking for their kids,…
The independent investigation of truth in China, the very foundation of justice itself, and the Communists’ worst nightmare, is now illegal. But digital files last forever and someday even the Chinese will know how evil the regime is.
3
A process in escalation! This technique was already being used against the Falun Gong. Facial recognition, voiceprints, the social credit system...Disturbed yet? 1984 in 2019...
4
And we make a stink about Iran or Cuba. Sure, both are terrible, but China is doing something akin to ethnic cleansing. The may not be killing the Uighurs, but they want to destroy their culture and spirit.
4
Yale needs to fire this employee for his part in crimes against humanity.
Completely complicit.
3
We are also very foolish to hand over our DNA to those cute genealogy sites to compile into neat little databases to track us -- and our relatives, whenever some crazy (Chinese or otherwise) wants to crack down on citizens, or take criminal advantage.
1
If you dont commit crimes, DNA records protect you and get real criminals. I rather have this than living in a country scared by constant terrorists and bombs.
1
Kidd sounds like Trump’s associates.
The Chinese do not need spys. They can buy anything in the West.
3
Eh, I don’t mind it, that’s the way china has always been and will always be, if the United States could make some money off of it, so be it...
On the one hand, the mass surveillance state in Xinjiang is a terrible thing and I would not defend it at all. However, on the other hand, when the writer says "In recent years, it has blamed Uighurs for a series of terrorist attacks in Xinjiang and elsewhere in China..." he is being disingenuous. Uighurs 'separatists' ARE to blame for numerous, horrible terrorist attacks, for the most part targeting innocent civilians, resulting in a total of over 1,000 dead (not '2') (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_of_major_events ). On the other hand, obviously, the Uighurs do have legitimate complaints. It's not so black and white.
2
Arizona has a bill that anyone who has to be fingerprinted for state employment must provide a DNA sample. Might want to look at our own lack of freedoms while examining the outrages of communist countries.
1
Automation will outplace hundreds of millions worldwide, with China in the lead. Their "social credit score", I believe, is being created to manage the unrest this will bring. Either everyone will have learned to internalize the state's repressive guidelines and behave like obedient zombies, or they will at least be subject to continuous monitoring. Algorithms will probably predict where demonstrations are likely to occur so they can be nipped in the bud. Fortunately for employment prospects, one thing that is unlikely to be automated soon are goon squads.
Americans, and Canadians, are known all over the world as gullible and naïve. And universities are used as easy immigration gates from those who want to exploit the academic high salaries, although low for American standards, to those in Europe and other countries. These immigrants exploit work permits universities can get as an easy way to immigrate even though they are not the most talented and bright and have nothing innovative to contribute by displacing the brightest Americans. American universities also grant easy access and sharing that leads to intellectual theft. Of course, there are exceptions. Some American academics in elite institutions also steal ideas from lower tier academic staff and scam their way to prestigious positions without any merit. Therefore, it is not difficult or surprising that the Chinese can easily deceive American academics that believe other cultures share the same desire for cooperation and friendly exchange.
3
Would you publish an article blaming "General Mill's pop corns were found at camps of ISIS fighters"?
It is really silly to blame the companies and scientists. The technologies can be applied for tracking DNA to individuals in the database, just like finger prints in any criminal investigation. If FBI has a database of everyone's DNA, how many cold cases can be re-opened and justice can be served? Victims' families may celebrate this. Now... mixed with politics, we have articles like this.
I'm reminded that we sold flying lessons to anyone with a buck for a profit. What could possibly go wrong with this plan?
2
What are those genetic heritage tests called here in this country and presented as interesting entertainment one can voluntarily pay for and participate?
1
I realized the contradiction between human right and country security.Unfortunately, I think an exemplary country of the human security in the future is China.
Nowadays. a nature of the menace to human being has changed from bilateral nations strife to terrorism, each human attacked all around the world.
That's why,the authority cannot help but observe every citizens meticulously whatever it takes , used DNA monitoring extremely.
Even In Japan, a statutory was embraced and as a monitoring citizen in order to prevent the terrorism in the congress ,but, of course, Japanese people made a procession and protested against it.
Anyway, the means of security in the world had largely changed.
2
l worked with many Chinese people in Silicon Valley. The mainland Chinese love China; the Taiwanese not so much. although they all got along in our companies. They shared a common language and culture.
The Taiwanese wanted to stay in America; the mainland Chinese wanted to go back home and start businesses with the expertise that they had learned in America.
I liked all of them very much, but I kind of wonder if my former coworkers are now working against America.
6
@Pat
The Taiwanese probably would not. The Taiwanese greatly admire America and Japan, and Taiwan society and culture are much admired by both. When I am in Taiwan, I hate to leave it to come back to California. When they visit, they want to stay. Mutual admiration. But America, Japan and Taiwan are democracies that protect freedoms the Chinese will never understand and the CCP dreads.
4
People like Dr. Kidd and company executives running Thermo Fisher would sell their mothers too, if the price was right.
1
They have stopped selling the equipment, but are they still selling the technology to them?
1
As long as we continue to lock up more of our own people per capita than just about any other country, I’m not sure we really even have standing to criticize human rights abuses elsewhere.
2
@Bob
Citizens of the world can walk and chew gun at the same time.
The Chinese regime has grossly violated all human rights related movements starting fr Tiananmen Square to virtually every aspect of privacy for its citizens and the world wherein lies its maleficient reach. They epitomize human degradation in a wholesale basis. No one, especially the United States, has taken any concrete action to undermine the Chinese effort for global domination at the expense of its citizens. The US and all it’s allies have been sidelined with fear. Then citizens of these developed nations have looked away as well. Consequences of this will be paid sooner or later by all of us as a human society.
8
Any new technology that one nation finds useful in population control will inevitably be found indispensable to every competitor nation.
2
The article describes disturbing events. No doubt that China wants to to keep a close eye on its Uighur population so that it can trace and nip any dissent as soon as it arises.
My question is about the timing of this article.
The incidents described took place a while ago. The world has known about China's rigid stance about dissent, particularly after the Tiananmen Square event. Surely the US govt has known far more in depth about this for many years.
Why is the mainstream media, like NYT, focusing on issues that highlight the danger that China poses at this time? Could it be that as the US govt has designated China as "a not trustworthy country" that our free press feels that it has received a green light to comment on these issues?
US mainstream media has a tendency to go to extremes. Russia was nothing to worry about at one time. Now everything in the world is attributed to Russian machinations. China was a friend at one time, no longer so. Instead of shades of grey, we get black and white.
I expect to see more of these articles in the months to come.
2
As I read this article, I am reminded that NYT have reported that US police have use 23 and Me and other similar companies to search for criminals that are not already in their own data base. But DNA information may not be as useful in locales where the ancestors of these residents have live in the same place for generations, and people from the same village has the same last name and are likely to be related by marriage to residents in neighboring communities.
1
The US government uses mobile devices to monitor the entire world.
1
China has extremely sophisticated United Front propaganda arms in place in prominent American and other western universities and is very good at brainwashing well-intentioned academics. Many are left-leaning to begin with and are open to collaboration with governments they perceive as leftist and populist, like “communist” governments. We cannot rely on academia to see a clear picture when it comes to China and human rights there.
3
@Mick
The United Front propaganda apparatus is dangerous to democracies everywhere. On college campuses its Confucius Institutes and Chinese Student and Scholars Assn. undermine teachings critical of China, honesty about the successful democracy of Taiwan, and the horrific failures of the madman Mao. The United Front and its cohorts are contributing to our local politicians sympathetic to China. They are doing (have done) the same in Taiwan, Australia and New Zealand. It promotes and helps elect local politicians knowing that these same politicians might rise to national offices.
This is just another example of why China must be contained. The Silk Road initiative, Huawei, the South China Sea, etc. China is flexing its authoritarian Communist muscle throughout the world now. It’s no longer when will China rise - China has risen. And America needs to take note. Russia is yesterday’s enemy. China is today’s enemy. This is why the trade war is so important. It’s a beginning. But there’s much more to be done and soon. America needs to stand up to China now. Even if that means risking military confrontation.
5
@Mike L
Amen. Better sooner than later. Can’t allow the infection to spread.
Here is the article that I think should follow this one - I live in Beijing and testing one's own DNA has become wildly popular recently here. These Chinese companies offering this service are in parallel to the ones in the US that give people insight about their ethnic makeup and heritage background. So many people I know are sending their DNA to these companies for analysis -but I think they are crazy- for sure there is no privacy regulation for these companies in China. In my rough understanding, all data belongs to the state if the state chooses to push for it. Beyond Xinjiang, which is a horrific tragedy, I would guess that the Chinese government is amassing a huge DNA database of all its citizens in large part via these companies. Please check it out!!
10
@Catherine
I had my own DNA tested and urged my son to do so as well. I've been regretting it for a while now. Who knows to what use it will be put? That genie is out of the bottle though.......
2
Probably a gross misunderstanding on my part, but I had a good laugh about the Chinese DNA testing.
In the US, people like seeing all the interwoven European (and everywhere else) immigration connections.
Most Chinese are Han and come from: China. What exactly are these folks getting out of these tests that is so compelling??
1
This is an appalling use of technology. I’m disgusted a US company is a part of it.
3
The message China is sending to the world is one of intolerance and a complete lack of respect for anyone who is not Han Chinese. One would have thought, given their belief in their own history, that they would learn from it and from world history. Sadly, they have not learned anything. The arc of history will bend to deliver them the same hard lessons - totalitarian governments cause massive damage, and then they fail. I'm more concerned about the brainwashed billions who live in China clueless about the hram that is being done in their good names. They will hurt the hardest when things come crashing down.
6
The DNA database will enable the PRC to continue and accelerate the forced harvesting of organs from executed prisoners. Many of these extra-judicial prisoners of conscience are political activists and pro-democracy Hans, human rights lawyers, Muslims, Falun Gong, Tibetans and Christians. Despite the PRC’s denials, the bloody harvest continues.
Google Dr. Enver Tohti, Dr. Huang Jiechi, and Canadian actress-activist Anastasia Lin.
7
@Charles Denman Excellent point.
4
@Charles Denman
Correction: Dr. Huang Jiefu
Like the Huawei telecom incident, no any real proof was offered in the article about the abuse of DNA with Ugihurs.
Just another hostile attitude article toward China.
2
Is this article really attempting to assign blame by association?
This country has such a short memory. How much more naive can we get.
The NSA, State and Federal law enforcement and many corporations in this country strive to do the same thing here and are doing it now. Just in a more roundabout way, by circumvention and contractual consent. How many "Ancestry" companies are being courted for their databases? And it wasn't that long ago that lobbyists and many of our representatives were screaming for a national registration and National identity cards for all Americans.
7
@Edmond
I don't want my Social Security number being used as a national registration number as it's being used today.
When Social Security was first introduced, it was illegal to use ther numbers for anything other than as a way to track one's lifetime income and match it to benefits. They were proprietary.
Today, everyone from the military to student loans to Netflix is using them. This is not right. No one has a right to your SS number except Social Security. They can make their own numbers if they want to just like the military used to have serial numbers for their soldiers.
If we're willing to allow them to use our Social Security numbers to identify us for everything, I don't see a real difference between that and a national identifier.
4
One of the first questions that came to mind: the DNA Dr. Kidd has stored (and shared with the Chinese) did he get signed consent from every person he has DNA samples to use for research?
As I recall Henrietta Lacks personal medical information was used without her consent and there was a big uproar about it. What is happening now when the same excuse is being used that since it is being used for medical research it is okay to have non-consent for a person's DNA?
As reported Dr. Kidd said he was for the collected DNA samples to be used by the police. It all sounds like the Germans' excuses for their "medical research" in the 1940's.
2
@Teacher It wasn’t Henrietta Lacks’ personal information, but her tissues (specifically her tumor tissue that was surgically removed) that was used as the source material for a cell line that is now widely used in biomedical research. The question at hand there was when does tissue go from being ‘yours’ to being medical waste. The rules are very different today.
In March of 2017 the Republican House considered forced genetic testing under certain insurance wellness plans. Representative Virginia Foxx led the effort in bill HR 1313. It came out of the Committee on Education and the Workforce along partisan lines. All 22 Republican members voted for it with all 17 Democrats opposed. Extremism is not limited to China.
8
We should keep in mind how "terrorism" is used. The rulers use it to mean violence directed at their government.
If the American revolutionaries were rebelling against British rule now, King George would call the Continental Army, "a terrorist organization"; the Boston Tea Party, "terrorist."
Notice the U.S. government won't call its nuclear bombings of children, "terrorism." Nor the Israeli government call its assassination of Palestinians, "terrorism." Nor the Syrian government call use of chemical weapons, "terrorism,"
"Terrorism" is what I called a "parochial" concept. I suggest a new word, "zerrorism" to describe all government related violence against innocents. Zerrorism can not exist without government.
Using its concept of "terrorism," government will never stop its spying on society, whether using DNA or other means in China, nor with bio-metric data in its "terror" wars against the Afghan and Iraqi peoples.
http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2010/08/31/questions_arise_about_use_of_data_gathered_in_iraq_war/
2
This is utterly disgusting and disturbing. Does not anyone else in the world see the parallels with Nazi Germany? Soon there could be a mass genocide against Uighurs. What is the world going to do to stop it? Or does Western desperation for cheap labor and the money they can pocket from the “market” in China outweigh everything? In my opinion if you do business with China, you are complicit with China’s human rights abuses. You’re helping to fund it. History does repeat itself.
6
@Kevin
I fully agree. But it is nearly impossible today to boycott Chinese goods. Try to buy branded tech goods or clothing of zero connection with this racist regime. It is impossible in today's world, unless you are willing to content yourself with vintage stuff and are a wiz with refurbishing old gear with a soldering iron....
The decimal system and alphabet are tools subject to abuse. Selling widely available tools is not the reprehensible act here. It is the ham-handed treatment of minorities by Chinese officialdom.
1
China is effectively wiping out Tibetans and Uighurs from the planet and the world is letting them get away with it. Where is the voice of the West? Where is the resolve that fought the Nazis? Now that this is happening again, who will speak up and do something meaningful before the tyrants in China get away with these crimes against humanity. Instead, every nation is letting themselves get bullied by the repressive Chinese regime while their propaganda machine silences dissent and creates a fake rosy image of a "great" nation. Disgusting...
9
@aucontraire
That's because the Western powers consider this mess to be an 'Asians only' affair. The Han are not harming people who resemble the majority of folks calling the shots in Washington, London or Paris. A reflection of our own internalized racism, I am afraid. We select our victims to be pitied in function of their resemblance to us, one of human nature's less savoury sides….
Easier for the USA to hack their systems if they use our designs
We need to stop naive scientists at our universities from collaborating with regimes that oppose our moral and ethics. Oh wait, but the universities have already taken the tuition fees of countless Chinese student who will have access to this info for "research purposes" within the university and who can easily take it home with them. Genius.
2
All foreigners employed in China must take an annual physical in order to qualify for a work visa. Chinese nationals checking into hotels now have a picture of their face taken in concert with their I.D. cards, whose pictures may be as much as 10 years old.
Capitalist science combined with State controlled economies is a potent threat to Democracy in EVERY country.
4
It pains me to write this. This active cataloging of humans by DNA feels like a prelude to a new age of genocide. I pray I am wrong.
Shame on the world and "science" if I'm right.
5
@Peter
You are correct, with respect to Communist China. There is a nascent slow moving holocaust. Remember that 40,000,000 Chinese died of starvation during Mao’s Great Leap Forward. Recommend all of us read then read again “Life and Death in Shanghai” by Nien Cheng. This remarkable woman survived and fled the horrific and soul crushing conditions and imprisonment of Mao’s Cultural Revolution. That book sharpened my current thinking about Xi’s (Mao 2.0) modern Communist China.
Not really that surprising seeing as China immigration takes fingerprints and facial scans of any foreigners entering the country. Also, for those trying to work in China, you must undergo a physical exam whereby blood is drawn. As to whether those blood samples are analyzed for DNA - who knows?
2
The US also takes photos and fingerprints upon entry...
Shame on us and shame on these academics and companies for empowering the Chinese to use genetic tests to suppress their citizens. How naive can anyone be; have none of them read "1984"?
Therno Fisher may not sell any more of their equipment to China but it will all be reverse-engineered so they can produce such materials for themselves.
Sheesh, you'd think these guys were born yesterday.
5
Just wait till those "ethical" scientists start designing disease vectors that can be targeted to specific ethnic groups. Then the genie will be out of the bottle for sure!
1
Well, China has determined her peoples will be happy rather than free.
@New World
'Free' ? As when they are no longer moving, ready for the mass graves or incinerators ? A disturbing interpretation of free, in any case.
This is very unsettling in general, and to think that America isn't very different at all. Theyre just more low-key about it, such as having out phones record us when we're talking or using face recognition, and even the finger print lock key on our smartphones.
The machines sold by Thermo Fisher typically need servicing. I hope someone at the NY Times ask (or finds out) if they are going to continue so in Xinjiang. That's a better test of their 'corporate values'.
1
I'd like to know how much money Kenneth Kidd and Thermo Fisher made from this travesty. I don't believe their excuses for a second.
9
Watching Gran Tour the other day on Amazon Jeremy Clarkson pointed out the massive camera infrastructure along the new Chinese highways. These cameras are monitoring 24/7. China is worse than anything George Orwell could have ever thought of. People in China are tracked 24/7.
3
How long before our government, in the name of National Security or National Emergency, decides to track our every movement if they are not there already.
Got to keep the masses down so they don't interfere with rich people's ability to exploit people and the environment.
1
US Ambassador Chas. H. Freeman was Director for Chinese Affairs at the U.S. Department of State from 1979-1981 and recently made this interesting observation about the genesis of the situation in Xinjiang:
“I don’t see any reason why Tibet being part of China should be any more controversial than Wales being part of the United Kingdom. The periods when they were put into that position were about the same. I recall, as probably most people don’t, that the the Central Intelligence Agency, with assistance from some of China’s neighbors, put $30 million into the destabilization of Tibet and basically financed and trained the participants in the Khampa rebellion and ultimately sought to remove the Dalai Lama from Tibet–which they did. They escorted him out of Tibet to Dharamsala. ..
"The CIA programs in Tibet, which were very effective in destabilizing it, did not succeed in Xinjiang. There were similar efforts made with the Uyghurs during the Cold War that never really got off the ground. In both cases you had religion waved as a banner in support of a desire for independence or autonomy which is, of course, is anathema to any state. I do believe that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones applies here. I am part American Indian and those people are not here (in the US) in the numbers they once were because of severe genocidal policies on the part of the European majority”.
5
Nothing new here. Just more of the human tendency to define and then separate out the "other."
In America we tend to think of China as being composed of one people. However, it is merely an empire run by the Han majority.
For all those Americans who are (often justly) critical of our nation's imperfections when it comes to the treatment of various ethnicities and "racial" groups, at least that is a public discussion here, and we tend to measure both our successes and failures by the degree to which we adhere to fundamental principles of equality and respect. Try finding this article or our comments on a Chinese website; then try finding articles and comments critical of our government on our websites here. You will fail at the former and easily succeed at the latter. That is not a trivial difference.
In the future governments won't need to go to all this trouble to identify and put down those who would dissent. It seems people are now committed to providing endless detail about themselves through (anti)social media and other databases. Once upon a time our government had to get a warrant to collect most info on dissenters, or at least infiltrate their circle of friends and organizations. Now they can buy the info or hack it, whichever is cheaper and easier.
As to this case, It is impossible to believe Thermo Fisher thinks products sold anywhere in China would not end up in Xinjiang or that Dr. Kidd thinks China predicates anything on informed consent. Follow the money.
10
Americans are tracked by good old American expertise as well. It may not involve DNA, not yet. But it certainly involves cell phones and computers and internet service providers and social media. They know where you go, what you do, whom you communicate with and what you say. Is it the government doing it? Not yet. But is there anyone to guarantee that it won't be?
2
Should one laugh or cry, when Thermo Fisher says "...it would no longer sell its equipment in Xinjiang, the part of China where the campaign to track Uighurs is mostly taking place" and Dr. Kidd says "...he had been unaware of how his material and know-how were being used [believing] Chinese scientists were acting within scientific norms that require informed consent by DNA donors?"
It is simply impossible to believe Thermo Fisher thinks products placed in other parts of China would not be routed to Xinjiang or that Dr. Kidd thinks China predicates anything on informed consent.
Follow the money.
10
Why would anyone in academia or industry in this country ever ignorantly assume their applications and research work are being put to benign use in China. Had thermo fisher been hiding a rock the last several years as more and more the Chinese questionable and downright anti-human rights activities have been documented?
5
@Eastbackbay the simplest explanation is that he just wanted the money-either didn’t care or denial. Now denial is no longer possible as this story comes to light so he comes up with unsatisfactory excuses like he though informed consent would happen in China and the government would use this technology for only good.
In the same vein he is not selling to Xinjiang any longer but presumably still to China which will impact precisely nothing.
3
The United States is headed in the same direction. Congress must restore privacy protections to FERPA and start enforcing privacy rights. School officials without parents knowledge and permission are already putting all kinds of children's data online. The push for data interoperability is just going to make the data easier to monetize.
What is truly reprehensible are all of these billionaires and think tanks who want us to think that we should not be concerned about them having access to our data. These folks and institutions already have too much control over are elected officials.
3
Abuse of Muslims as scapegoats for American intelligence and foreign policy failures that resulted in the 2001 bombing of New York City has far-reaching consequences, beyond 3 million dead, dozens of millions of refugees and three trillion dollars wasted, not to mention continuing attacks in Western capitals.
Turning a blind eye to American, British, French and Russian abuse of Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and Syria for the last two decades leads naturally to Chinese abuse of Uighur Muslims. The Chinese tell themselves: me too; why can you and not us?
As far as the world's Muslims are concerned, in their vast majority they see their lands and peoples as open season to whoever, including the five-member nuclear-armed UN Security Council, has a beef or an interest: old feuds with Iran, French domination of Africa, British arms sales to the Saudis, Israeli weapons testing, Russian muscle-flexing, and now Chinese repression of their western provinces.
This is why it's so difficult to get Muslim peoples to clean up their own house. The international system has abandoned them everywhere, with nothing gained but much lost to outside intervention and the resulting destruction.
As the West continues to turn its eyes away, justifying more distance, distrust, disrespect and disregard for the rights of Muslim peoples with the "war on terror," China is developing and testing biological state surveillance systems that will come back and haunt us all, everywhere in the world.
@Yasser Taima
I understand your concerns regarding negative media coverage of Muslims in the West over the last few decades.
However, at least from this article, and several others in the NYT and other papers of note , the plight of the Uighurs , as well as Rohingya are getting much more press. Such coverage of Muslims was very rarely, if ever, seen in the Western press. Hopefully this means some perspective is being developed, and the true evils of the world are being exposed , as in the case here in Xinjiang.
Turkey just issued a very serious reply to China over this, and other countries are taking note as well. This would be unheard of even 5 years ago for fear of upsetting China's rulers, but such a blatant disregard for human rights can't go unnoticed. But more pressure needs to be brought on China - boycotts should be implemented to force this issue.
But positive change won't happen overnight , especially with such a brutal regime in China. The wheels of justice grind slowly.
2
@Mark
This is good vs. evil. We cannot, must not, be passive and disinterested. No excuse for inaction.
1
One historical resemblance which hopefully will not repeat itself here was IBM's participation (by it's German subsidiary "Dehomag") in the holocaust. Lot's of tolls can be used in many ways, but I don't think that spares you from thinking about where and with what intentions these are used. There's no such thing as "just earns me money".
4
I thought only capitalists would sell the rope for porfit to its enemy who in turn would hang them to death. I never thought that Academic scholars, scientists would also sell their soul for Chinese communists for perks, fame, expensive trips and possibly secret but recorded entertainment with Chinese beauties....
What this world has become? more than three millions Uyghurs disappeared into internment camps with Chinese style, and they are facing daily abuse, torture and death....I wonder how those profit-driven, god-loving, democracy upholding capitalists, and self enriching scientists could sleep at night?
9
On Wednesday, Thermo Fisher said it would stop selling its equipment in Xinjiang, a decision it said was “consistent with Thermo Fisher’s values, ethics code and policies.”
I am very happy to hear that as I am sure that if the Chinese government needed more equipment for Xinjiang they would be incapable of figuring out how to order them for delivery to Shanghai or Beijing or ... and then shipping them up to Xinjiang
7
Just like the Nazi's 80 years ago with the help of IBM Germany. The Chinese will eventually extend this to all there people with imbedded chips for good measure.
9
I will remind indigent readers of this report, China bashers, and sleazy politicians that the USA has been the most dangerous country in the world since the end of WW2. It has killed millions of people in unjustified wars in Viet Nam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention the people it slaughtered in Cambodia, the disgraceful removal of Allende in Chile and support of the fascist Pinochet, whole murdered tens of thousands of Chileans. And don't forget we have the highest incarceration rate of any developed country, and are the only western nation to sanction capitol punishment. We support the Saudi Arabians who not only murder journalists but also have butchered tens of thousands of Yemeni. The evangelical Trump supporters should remind us that "only he who is without sin" should be allowed to cast the first stone. As Samuel Johnson said more than 200 years ago "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."
5
@Pessoa
Is this just "Whataboutism" though?
I was taught at social anthropology undergraduate school that the ideology of race and DNA are two separate things. In other words there is no scientific basis for racial ideology and you cannot tell where someone was born from their DNA. Clearly the New York Times, the Chinese govt and these ancestry companies have not caught up with science in Britain circa 2004.
I’ve always been suspicious of these ancestry companies and wondered how they are mining the data in your DNA. Also these TV programmes where they find a celebrity and discover the are 37% Scandinavian. As far as I was told at university it doesn’t work like that. People from all over the world have a mix of DNA as there has been a lot more migration than people commonly assume.
1
Anthropology as a study has pushed a ‘tabula rasa’ or blank slate ideology. It is a stark pushback and over reaction to the ‘race science’ origin of anthropology. However, there are genetic differences between ethnicities. You can say there are different genetics for different ethnicities without subscribing to eugenics.
2
Genetics pool is determined for a certain date. as people keep breeding the genetic pool keep changing. For example melanesian used to be something a few centuries ago while now its heavily influenced by the mix of immigrants from UK etc Heritage testing make no sense and i'm glad it's forbidden in France for non-medical use.
Wow, China sounds like a great place to live.....i like when people in authority know where i am at all times and even what i'm doing if they like. China has pulled the wool over the world's willing eyes as its economy is the top story. It sounds just a brutal and constrained, if not more so, than it has been since it chose communism, or as i call it, a vengeful all controlling police state. At this point they would probably run over the guy in Tianammen square.
5
“Always eyes watching you and the voice enveloping you. Asleep or awake, indoors or out of doors, in the bath or bed- no escape. Nothing was your own except the few cubic centimeters in your skull.”
― George Orwell, 1984
4
After facial recognition and other digital technologies, china now want to use another western technology and expertise to create a more authoritarian regime and to monitor its citizens. Such repression are mainly being used against minorities- political, religious, and racial minorities.
Poor Pakistan and other autocratic Islamic countries who are now close allies of communist regimes of China and Putin's Russia. Those communist regimes (directly or indirectly) are massacaring it's own muslim minorities while promoting and protecting Islamic terrorists originating from those islamic or Muslim majority countries when those terrorists are attacking democratic countries like USA, India, UK, EU etc
When Mr. Trump refuses to condemn Saudi crown prince for savage murder of Jamal Khashoggi because, as he put it, "we are not going to give up hundreds of billions of dollars in orders", he is sending a clear message to corporate America: Check your human rights and American values advocacy at the door, since the only thing that matters is making the big money. With that standard set, how can anyone condemn Thermo Fisher for listening to the POTUS?
When the US president has no qualms about selling nuclear power plants to a murderous regime that funded the 9/11 attack, in part to enrich himself and his family knowing well that one day the plants' nuclear material can be brought back to the US soil in the form of a nuclear bomb, how can one condemn Kenneth Kidd who, in the grand scheme of things, is just a bit player?
106
@Eddie B.
Trump needs to be much more vocal about human rights, especially in China. But this is a problem that started under the past two administrations, not just his- Obama and Bush are at fault as well. Spread your blame around accordingly.
10
@Eddie B.: Kenneth Kidd has to be condemned, because he lied when he said that he did not know what his DNA samples would be used for, or that Uigurs are strongly discriminated against and are suppressed by the Chinese communist government. I do not know whose DNA Dr. Kidd provided to the Chinese, but for sure he "forgot" to ask for their permission to use it for the shady purposes it was used for. The fact that Trump is worse makes no difference, we cannot use his lack of integrity or honesty as the standard for our nation.
12
@Eddie B.
The purpose of a company is to make money for the shareholders, period, not to worry about human rights. I don't know why you expect a corporation to act otherwise.
3
Americans would sell anything to anyone who can pay, preferably in
cash...
'The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.' Vladimir Ilich Lenin
3
They are not against Muslims, they are against all religion-ignited crimes. I am sure they will swap all priests if the same scope of sex abuse happens on their ppl.
This is horrific, yes. But the fact that anyone is surprised by this human rights abuse makes me concerned about lack of information, education, and imagination regarding just how bad things can and will get regarding genetic information, privacy, and human rights abuses.
Incidentally, it is wildly unreasonable (irresponsible journalism) to point a finger at an international product manufacturer when a bad actor uses standard, off-the-shelf equipment for nefarious purposes. If Chinese authorities used Macbooks to analyze the data, is Apple responsible? C’mon NYT editors. Seriously.
1
The Chinese government is doing to the Uighurs what they've done and continue to do to the Tibetans, and the governments of the rest of the world just turn their backs in order to make their profit from China's economic rise.
It's a disgrace to see how amoral people, governments, and international corporations can be in the face of profiteering off of unfettered, unregulated, globalized capitalism.
If there were substantial reserves of oil, gas, or precious minerals under the Uighurs' and Tibetan lands, no doubt the west would have given China, over the past sixty decades, push back vis-a-vis humanitarian reasons and these people, who are NOT Chinese, could live their lives in their autonomous regions, and in the case of Tibet, sovereign country.
The Chinese government continues to prove to the world that it's not only Orwellian, it is truly disgusting.
5
China is doing what Germany did pre WW2. Using US tech for it's subjugation schemes. And as we were back then we are profiting partners today. Selling out our own morality for a buck. If paybacks are a beep then we definitely will get ours.
2
Yale continues to be shamefully naive as to the Chinese government.
Perhaps it is the funding.
2
If China would spend only a small portion of the money it spends on oppressing its people and phony building projects, to clean up the air and water of China, and provide decent sanitary facilities, the country might not have to worry so much about keeping the populace in line. Between this nonsense and all the corrupt officials, China’s people will continually struggle.
2
@Denver Native
Xi is Mao 2.0
Just to be clear. China is using DNA to catalog its people for the purposes of controlling and keeping track of its population, for everything from surveillance to promoting "good" behavior.
They steal our intellectual property, manipulate their currency and take advantage of outdated trade agreements.
They have a long term plan for controlling everything from telecommunications, military and world wide economics.
Just to be clear.....Russia is our most dangerous enemy and there are readers of the NY Times who think that the United States is the most evil country in the world.
3
Sadly, Kenneth Kidd, a prominent Yale University geneticist behaves the same way as companies. He goes where he/she gets paid most. Do we know how much Chinese government paid him and Yale for the genetic material?
2
Where is Marco Rubio's protest of weapons sales to Saudi Arabia and other authoritarian governments? Or is that not politically convenient to talk about?
So what? Who cares?
China did not imprison the 2.3 million Americans 25% of the world total with 5% of humanity. And even though only 13.3% of Americans are black like Ben Carson, 40% of the prisoners are black. Because blacks are persecuted for acting like white people do without any criminal justice consequences. Prison is the carefully carved colored exception to the 13th Amendments abolition of slavery and involuntary servitude.
Besides thanks to American patriot Edward Snowden we know that American intelligence and internet service providers and communications companies are spying on us without any probable cause nor due process.
China hacked American government personnel records for years before American "intelligence" caught on. MAGA not!
4
Well duh!
Wall Street and tech giants like Apple, Google and Facebook are ALL in bed with China and/or Russia.
Trump isn't the only one selling America out.
They have NO loyalty to democracy or American values.
Another victory for globalism.
It's 1984 in China in 2019.
It may be 2019 elsewhere but it’s 1984 in China
2
Nothing new here. Just more of the human tendency to define and then separate out the "other."
In America we tend to think of China as being composed of one people. However, it is merely an empire run by the Han majority.
For all those Americans who are (often justly) critical of our nation's imperfections when it comes to the treatment of various ethnicities and "racial" groups, at least that is a public discussion here, and we tend to measure both our successes and failures by the degree to which we adhere to fundamental principles of equality and respect. Try finding this article or our comments on a Chinese website; then try finding articles and comments critical of our government on our websites here. You will fail at the former and easily succeed at the latter. That is not a trivial difference.
Sadly, in the future governments won't need to go to all this trouble to identify and put down those who would dissent. It seems the younger generation is committed to providing endless detail about itself through (anti)social media and other databases. Once upon a time our government had to get a warrant to collect most info on dissenters, or at least infiltrate their circle of friends and organizations. Now they can buy the info or hack it, whichever is cheaper and easier.
1
So many of us had hopes of China discarding Communism when they embraced free enterprise for some. How could an industrialized country with a strong economy keep such an authoritarian system? My first hint occurred about 20 years ago. There was bright Chinese student in our high school. I posed the question above to him. His reply was along the lines "that we just want to be rich. We are not interested in politics." Well I guess he was right!
3
"[China] got unlikely corporate and academic help from the United States to do it."
Nothing "unlikely" about this - US corporations routinely help authoritarian governments oppress their peoples.
2
This is what "elites" look like to the rest of the country - people, who in their hearts, have transcended national identity and patriotic values and believe they are global citizens beholding to their own values.
Meanwhile, here in the United States, people pay money for a "DNA kit" which they then use to take a DNA sample from their person to then send who-knows-where-or-who to then be entered in a big database to be used for...who knows what?
I've long found people's eagerness and willingness to do this a little strange. Anyone else?
5
@ChrisH
Yes, very strange indeed.
The reality is that it takes only three cells worth of human DNA (6-7 picograms) to test for the identity of a person's DNA left on a gun that they have handled. There is now an effort to genotype DNA collected from ALL guns (trigger, handle or slide) involved in a crime or confiscated because of illegal possession. The idea is to have a database of all people who have had possession of these guns. Sometimes possession of a single gun can be traced to more than one individual. If there is a question about whether and individual has had possession of such guns, the police compare the genotype of the DNA from the gun with DNA collected from a buccal swap of the suspect. Believe it or not, this has already been used successfully in forensics.
@John Leavitt
Given the national scourge of gun violence, it is acceptable but is not as effective as getting rid of all the guns out here. Guns kill people.
1
Coming soon to a theater near you. But Americans will give up their privacy willingly as fear-mongering politicians, media-types and mega-corporations will convince us that to keep us "safe" from all those "threats" just let them scan, probe, index and store everything there is to know about ... well, first those "evildoers" but then those who assist those evildoers or are related to them or know them or ... until you're scanned, probed, indexed and stored.
6
Let all Western scentists and firms know what Dr Kidd is only now coming to ruefully understand: there is no such thing as pure scientific inquiry, science for the sake of knowledge, in China.
EVERYTHING is done for the sake of strengthening and protecting the state, its military, business enterprises, expansion of its hegemony over adjacent territories and waters and, most critically, advancement of those who run the country.
As terrible and multifarious as Donald Trump and his cabinet’s financial exploitation of the American political system has been, know that, by any metric, China is still by far the largest criminal enterprise on earth.
7
Why is Dr. Budowle mentioned? Because of a sentence in an online biography? I don't think that warrants him being implicated in anything. Seems like the authors searched for geneticists online with the keyword "china" and just included a random result
The USA police departments may already be using DNA data bases to track people.**
**https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article217037455.html
**https://www.newscientist.com/article/2182348-police-can-now-use-millions-more-peoples-dna-to-find-criminals/
1
Tracking people by DNA is terrible. They have no human rights in China.
In Beijing face recognition tracks everyone. It’s obvious that dictators and tyrants could use DNA to racial “cleanse” their population. Nazis would have liked DNA of everyone.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump admires the repressive regime.
8
@Here Come Da Judge I guess in your eagerness to bash Trump you ignored the “threat of sanctions”.
Oh, those nasty Chinese! And we are to believe that an exploitable surveillance program is NOT being used on American citizens? An America that stores every text and phone call we've ever made?
7
And partnered with Google, Facebook, Apple, banks!
@Marty Rowland, Ph.D., P.E.
Anyone been over to take your DNA and your iris print?
We should note that this country is already collecting DNA on select citizens. We are already on the slippery slope. Meanwhile, Apple can intentionally keep phone data of criminals private from the police.
4
@alan
Apple intentionally maintains privacy of its phone users--even from itself, much to the chagrin of three letter agencies.
1
@Pence remember the flair up Apple had with the FBI over obtaining the iPhone password of the San Bernardino suspect?
1
@Pence. How bizarre you think it’s private.
This technology is going to be used against the Tibetans as well. Google satellite has already detected internment-style barracks being built on the Tibetan plateau. Few get out those places alive. It's happening now. China represents a far greater threat to the world than Islam. Once they've "taken care" of their own minorities.
7
Keep in mind that China has to manage a population that is four times the size of ours on the same amount of land with a little over half our GDP and wealth.
On top of that, they have had to rebuild their government and economy more than once since the West destroyed the last dynasty, the Qing, by military conquest, extraction of great wealth with "unequal treaties" (google it), and a forced opioid epidemic.
So I will reserve judgment until the US faces similar challenges.
4
@D.A.Oh
I am ashamed of that history, the Opium Wars and their aftermath - the colonial powers, including Japan were war criminals by today’s standards. I am saddened and grieve for the 300,000 innocent victims in Nanking at the hands of the Japanese army. There is so much grace, art, culture, beauty and wisdom in 5,000 years of Chinese civilization. We can learn much by studying old China. But that record can be erased and eclipsed by the CCP as they continue on this trajectory. Don’t become the barbarian.
9
@D.A.Oh I fail to see how country size and population density necessitate these types of actions by a government, especially since they are taking place in some of the least populated regions of China. It's true that the unequal treaties, destruction by the west, concessions, and Japanese invasion have all contributed to the China we see today, but action by the Communist regime has also greatly set back Chinese society (Great Leap, Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen, corruption ever since Jiang Zemin, and so on).
In the end though, it's not all these set backs that motivate the Chinese government to collect DNA and establish reeducation camps. These actions target ethnic minorities on the fringes of China with the aim of unquestioned political control.
13
@D.A.Oh
China has “manage” its population so harshly because of its lack of care of its people. I imagine the government will finally cause yet another revolution by its policies. Meanwhile, the USA should not assist them in their oppression.
11
We have full diplomatic and economic relations with China (tariff wars notwithstanding), while at the same time subjecting Cuba to an economic blockade and virtually no diplomatic relations.
Cuba is a totalitarian police state. China is a totalitarian police state that is most likely the most policed of all police states (as this article about DNA use attests)--and the most imperialistic (Tibet, credible threats of invading Taiwan, grabbing the territorial waters of Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia, Brunei, Malaysia etc.)
For that matter, we also buy vast quantities of oil from Venezuela, which is not only a totalitarian police state, but, unlike Cuba and China, is starving its citizens.
Yet Republican politicians swoon with outrage when anyone talks of normalizing relations with a totalitarian police state in the Caribbean while never, ever arguing for treating China as we do Cuba.
China has a million Uighurs imprisoned for the crime of being Uighurs, utilizing American DNA technology to target them.
About which our Republican prez has nada to say, meanwhile rescinding most of the opening up of our relations with Cuba that our last rational President had done.
I await the Republicans putting the squeeze on China to match what it's doing to Cuba.
Then again, why should they? It's not as if Republican voters have demonstrated any interest in logic and consistency.
6
Chinese already creating first children whose DNA has been tailored using gene editing.( This article was written in 2015, I think.)
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612458/exclusive-chinese-scientists-are-creating-crispr-babies/
1
If you ask me the Chinese have it pretty good. In the US we have to pay hundreds to thousand of dollars for our phones to scan our faces, track our location, record our voices, and take our fingerprints, and about $50 more to willingly send our DNA samples in!! They can just do it all for free.
3
Do you want Gattaca? Because this is how you get Gattaca.
3
Dr. Kidd said “...he believed Chinese scientists were acting within scientific norms that require informed consent...” as he laughed all the way to the bank.
Morals & safeguards, who needs them when you are handsomely paid to look the other way.
5
Chillingly reminiscent of how IBM’s German subsidiary collaborated with Hitler with the application of its Hollerith tabulation machines to identify, locate and ultimately kill millions of Jews. IBM designed, executed, and supplied the technology to assist in the automation of human destruction in Hitler's Third Reich.
15
Suppose this was Jews in Germany? This type of data analysis was used by the Nazis. While not comparing the two, this type of ethics-free surveillance clearly tramples human rights.
How much is Dr Kidd being paid, for his services? Or, is it fame in China that he seeks? Where is Yale's ethical oversight?
9
"He said governments should have access to data about minorities, not just the dominant ethnic group, in order to have an accurate picture of the whole population."
If this statement is correct it questions the morals of Dr. Kidd. What does he mean governments should have access to "minorities" DNA? Does he mean minorities rights are not the same as the majority population? This is dangerous if scientists cannot police themselves. Scientists have a powerful tool, their brains and as we saw Robert Mercer sell his "brain" to the highest bidder, the GOP during the elections and the Pretend King Trump's administration, we need to consider how to penalize scientists who have immoral values and lead to catastrophic human events.
Can one imagine if the Nazis had the capability to know who was a Jew? More than 6 million people would have died. We need to stop this before it gets to the point where we are now being employed, judged and given medical services based on our DNA.
10
@amrcitizen16
I’m pretty sure he means that when doing research on a population such as the citizens of a particular country, you have to make sure that your sample composition is representative of the population you are trying to study. Research studies sometimes run into issues of under (or non-) representation by monorities. This gets to Dr. Caplan’s point that scientists are a little naive sometimes in thinking of downstream activities from a research point of view without considering potential worst case scenarios. And genome-assisted genocide is about as worst-case as you can get.
Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
That's how I feel when I look at the scientific world affairs where money and fame are more important than ethics and the protection of human rights by scientists. What have you done you mad scientists that we can celebrate? Nothing ! You brought mankind into believing even more stupid theories than the supestitious religions. Of course you can manipulate the bricks of the original creation, but only to sink humanity in an even darker age. Nazi scientists too said they worked for the advancement of science, and Chinese scientists are saying the same. One word come to mind : TREASON !
2
One thing about Americans is that they will and do sell their souls for nearly any amount of money. Not a lot of self respecting people out there anymore.
12
@Righteous Anger Americans worship the almighty dollar. Some is never enough. It may be the ruination of our American Experiment.
3
@righteousanger while i am in total agreement with you on Americans doing anything for a buck, your focus is too narrow.
The majority of humans on the planet will do anything for money, if the price is right.
1
Far too many adherents of Islam have murdered in the name of Allah to be dismissed. We know for a fact they invoke Allah's name during their "sacred act". So, NYT and America, let's put this Islamic terror in context. Compare the lives lost, money spent by the U.S. compared to China in efforts to arrest this demonic extremism?
@tennvol30736
Far too many adherents to Christianity have murdered in the name of Jesus to be dismissed. We know for a fact Jesus’ name is invoked during their “sacred” act. So, let the whole world put this Christian terror in context. Shall we oppress all Christians because of the few extremists who have killed, robbed, exploited etc. in the name of Jesus?
1
Yale needs to fire this guy
5
@sgmcnamee
He is 77 and got enough money. Too late to fire him.
I couldn't agree with you more. fire him and deport him to China.
Some people think the Han Chinese are intellectually superior so one could see selective mating done to improve the breed. Not sure how that would go over elsewhere. The only solution would be for total intermixing of the races worldwide so the human race would be completely homogeneous in appearance.
@as Only some Han people have this opinion. Just as some white racists have this opinion about themselves.
1
Should have left China a poor country!!!! Before you react, think first!!! China has become a very powerful nation off the backs of American workers!!! They would never have been able to do this blasphemy, with out finances!!!! Now China has a great deal of wealth and power, and using their wealth and power for all the wrong reasons!!! Wait, just wait until China goes after the USA and Russia, and it will happen, it is just a matter of time.......
1
I think I'll be skipping the 23AndMe bandwagon.
22
I made that decision a long time ago.
2
Here we have to have our finger prints taken for sensitive jobs or even be a cab driver in NYC. We have Social Security number and passport numbers attached to our name. Is DNA that different and inviolate? Some Federal jobs require lie detector test while Trump got his relative through top secret security clearance. I know Uighur conjure up minority prosecution in NYT readers, but if all Chinese have their DNA in a data base, why should Uighur be exempt?
1
@xeroid47
Yes but you don’t have to be coerced or forced to do any of what you have described- yes you won’t get the job but that is your choice- this minority group did not have a choice- give this info or who knows what will happen to them.
2
@xeroid47
Because the information is being used for a different purpose - to oppress a single group of people for someone else's agenda. Are you being rounded up and sent to a re-education plant when you give your information to get a federal job? Are non-Uighur Chinese citizens being detained based on their DNA? Yes, there is a very large difference.
4
@xeroid47 DNA is incredibly more pervasive than finger prints.
and i think you meant "minority persecution".
2
Our "open door" policy with China is now being strained to the limit. They have not only been stealing technology, but have recently attempted this by law through mandatory "sharing". At the same time they put all sorts of hurdles against American firms selling their products in China. Time for parity or balanced yearly trade with China. This would still be at a high level for both countries.
Instead of becoming more liberal--what this increase in trade was supposed to lead to--they have become more draconian in suppression of the political rights of their own people.
They are even attacking the rights of citizens of Hong Kong. The economic prosperity of the new China is based on the Hong Kong model. The Beijing government's greed here is worse than that of our own robber barons, who have opposed successfully not only climate change initiatives, but also air and water safety. Ditto China, especially coal.
China seems to be taking our detour to do Russia's bidding as an excuse to become more authoritarian. Humanitarian rights are the civil rights of the People, and environmental justice is also social justice. On the latter, it is urgent that we be on the same page with China. But alas, our own administration is the major problem; far from leading here, their quid pro quo corruption with polluters is criminal.
Our policy should be human/environmental rights over trade. Air pollution is so bad in China, they would welcome serious environmental policy.
5
As sickening as this is, I'm afraid we are only one a step behind this. When I was a kid, the only people fingerprinted were prisoners. Whenever I go to the DMV and protest them taking my fingerprints for my driver's license they get upset. I'm not rude about asking why they need my fingerprints,but their answer is, "that's why they have the police next door to handle these situations"... Face recognition is soon to be here and dna is already a fun thing to find out who your ancestors are and keep your dna on file for all to see... Our smartphones track us everywhere we go, even when they are turned off and those electronic "assistants" that we have to talk to also record our voices when we aren't talking to them... A candidate that I would vote for in the future would look at these things and make privacy rules for all, otherwise we will end up like China.
235
@Missy
But the situations are fundamentally different. In PRC, the operation is an essential part of one ethnic group trying to cleanse another, quietly and slowly but surely. There are more issues. Contaminating global scientific knowledge is a very serious offence because all of us will surely benefit from the kind of data bases discussed in the article at dome point in our lives. That means we team upp with the Chibese dirty "scientists". No easy way to get out. A more disturbing matter, which I assure you will never come to your neighborhood is the possibility of using genetic information for organ harvesting. The airport of Kashgal has a fast lane for "passengers" carrying human organs (not their own).
8
@Missy
When I joined the Army I was fingerprinted. And photographed. And weighed and measured. Obviously, they wanted to know who I was - or wasn't - and they had a right to. Later, when I became an aviator, panoramic dental x-rays for aviators were introduced (so our remains could be identified in the fairly event of a death that would preclude visual identification). When I apply for a job as a teacher I am fingerprinted, obviously so the FBI database can be searched to see if I am a sex offender, etc. searched. If you die in a car or bus crash which is followed by a fire, and there are multiple bodies, you might want your next of kin to get the right one (although what difference would it really make?). And how about people who lose a baby through an inadvertent "swap or kidnapping? Happens more often than you would think.
4
@Barry Borella The DMV did give the, "how would we identify you if you burned up in a fire", to which I asked, "if I burned up in a fire would I still have fingerprints?" That's when they directed me to the police office next door, she said something like,"they handle people like me." They also took a terrible picture of me, with a digital camera ;-p
7
The current Chinese leader is well liked in China. Once he dies, like we all do eventually, I'm predicting there will be political chaos as exceptional leaders that can hold everything together, in communist nations, only come around once in a blue moon. Everything changes and is in a constant state of change.
4
This is a great article from Scientific American regarding folks in the US paying to give up their DNA. They sounded the alarm back in 2013.
This quote from the article stands out to me: In referring to 23andme :
"It is a mechanism meant to be a front end for a massive information-gathering operation against an unwitting public."
/www.scientificamerican.com/article/23andme-is-terrifying-but-not-for-the-reasons-the-fda-thinks/
14
This is nauseating that a Yale researcher can legally do such a monstrous thing, much less want to. Money money money, and no morals morals morals.
11
I’m sure fine, upstanding businesses and countries (like, say, China) are only using DNA information for good, never for evil. However, I can’t help but think, these fine, upstanding entities might soon discover that 30 percent of known terrorists have a certain strain of DNA. Then they plug in that information into the general population’s DNA records and decide to round up all those with terrorism potential. You may never have had a bad thought in your life, but, sorry, your DNA indicates you could be a threat, so they lock you up, just to be on the safe side. Of course, that could never happen in a million years ...
6
No one should answer any requests comes from Chinese companies or from its friendly countries. They may loose business, but it is ok, we can live. What we cannot live with is the damage they can cause to our security and the abuse to human society.
3
“...he believed Chinese scientists were acting within scientific norms that require informed consent...”
He actually believed that? Really? Or did he just WANT to believe that because there was money to made and he wants to have his money and self-regard too.
Or is he just the dumbest smart person in America.
4
This is a horrendous human rights abuse and has terrifying implications for our species. It is also why I refuse to register for "ancestry.com"
1
"China wants to make the country’s Uighurs, a predominantly Muslim ethnic group, more subservient to the Communist Party."
This is inaccurate.
The Han Chinese want to eradicate the Uighurs because (1) they aren't Han, and (2) to take over Xinjiang which has a wealth of mineral and oil resources. Han Chinese have been deliberately relocated to Xinjiang over the years to increase the Han presence. China has resisted UN efforts to name Kashgar as a world heritage city so they could go ahead and bulldoze the Old City which has a predominantly Uighur population.
This is genocide.
15
At least Chinese citizen got their DNA stolen for free, in America, we charge people $50-100 to do that through Ancestry, 23&me, etc.
2
I remember a few years ago your columnist Tom Friedman wrote a piece about the USA becoming g like China for a day. Do you think this is what he had in mind or was he just plain wrong about the wisdom of the idea. Still waiting for his retraction.
Gattaca is around the corner. But worse. Instead of caste determined by supposed genetic superiority it will be a genetic purity (ie. racial) tests. Personal genomes for sale along with fake SS cards. Banned nationalities (untouchables) "need not apply".
BDS for China? Oh, I forgot: they make everything we use. Too inconvenient.
1
The Chinese all 1.2 billion of them still think Rhino Horn has medicinal properties to enhance male libido. How and why should we take these people seriously?
the Chinese government is an Orwellian threat to mankind.
2
The article does not state the darker prospect, that the DNA database will be used by China’s authorities to further forced organ harvesting of political dissidents and religious activists. Forced organ harvesting is and has been a poorly kept secret that has been well documented by independent international observers. If an affluent patient needs a organ transplant, this database can be used to identify forced donors. The person can be arrested on a pretext, imprisoned, and subject to organ removal by prison officials. The black market trade in prisoner organs is a fact in China, despite the authorities claims that the practice has been stopped. Activist-actor Anastasia Lin of Canada is a respected source and has testified in several countries. She cannot return to China. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are additional sources, among others.
5
"Dr. Kidd said he had been unaware of how his material and know-how were being used. He said he believed Chinese scientists were acting within scientific norms that require informed consent by DNA donors."
Is this supposed to pass the smell test?
5
Speaking as someone who holds a Ph.D. in the biological sciences, I have to point out that the instruments Thermo Fisher sells do not have an obvious, singular application toward totalitarian control. Quite the opposite, in fact: Thermo Fisher/Applied Biosciences, the general store / Wal-Mart / Office Max of the life sciences laboratory world, sells what copy machines would be to an office, kitchen knives would be to a restaurant, and what trucks would be to a shipping company. The situation here is absolutely unlike and incomparable to American or Israeli weapons manufacturers selling guns and missiles to Middle Eastern despots.
Of course copy machines, knives, and trucks can all be used by malicious organizations. And yes, the same laboratory equipment Thermo Fisher sold to Xinjiang can be used for beneficial medical research. The authors of this article and Marco Rubio disingenuously imply that Thermo Fisher can easily foresee and control how their products will be used. The NY Times can do better.
The real questions we should be asking are more along the lines of: is medical and biological technology equally dangerous as nuclear fuel in that it can be used to advance society and alternatively build dangerous weapons and systems? How can we reconcile our answer to that with our Western belief that all humans deserve the best healthcare available as a fundamental human entitlement? Is it equally acceptable to collect DNA data by opting in (see: 23andMe) than by force?
136
@AnAsianAmerican I am pretty sure that by now most reasonably educated Americans are aware of what has been going on in Xinjiang. Presumably Fisher sent someone to set-up that equipment, or at least knew where it was being sent.
24
@AnAsianAmerican
A couple points.
First, the more important question here is how are Dr. Kidd, Dr. Budowle and the other scientists not culpable in their research collaboration with Chinese police? They knew they were talking to security personnel, yet went right ahead with their collaboration, even providing DNA samples. Did they not know of China's abysmal human rights record?
At least I give Thermo Fisher some credit for stopping direct sales to Xinjiang, but who's to stop a Thermo Fisher PCR or sequencing machine that's shipped to Shanghai or Beijing from ending up in Xinjiang?
Second, the difference between DNA companies here, like 23andMe, Ancestry.com and Familytree DNA and what China is doing is that at least here, it's voluntary - no one is forcing anyone to submit their DNA. In China, especially in Xinjiang, there's no choice.
Also, to what ends are the Chinese using this information? At least with 23and Me, I have access to my information , and can use it for my benefit and they are keeping it from being used by government authorities for possibly nefarious purposes.
The same can't be said in China's case.
24
@AnAsianAmerican: I agree with your assessment regarding the broad range of uses the Thermo gene-sequencing and dna analytical instrumentation has in the marketplace.
Perhaps it is time for the U.S. Gov't. to extend export controls that require overseas end-user purchasers of such scientific equipment to clearly identify the specific use of the equipment and licensing restricting uses that serve to subvert human rights.
Don't know if this would be practicably achievable, but similar export controls are in place for technological products having potential military and weapons applications.
10
On Wednesday, Thermo Fisher said it would stop selling its equipment in Xinjiang, a decision it said was “consistent with Thermo Fisher’s values, ethics code and policies.”
Seriously? Does Thermo Fisher think it’s that easy to segregate where and how the equipment they sell to China is used? Willfully naive.
4
It's always the same...when it comes to the almighty dollar, there is no East vs West...it's all green.
4
We should be doing that here! If you have nothing to hide- then you'll have nothing to fear.
1
No
The good news about this debate is that it may well help the next generation of young Americans to turn their attention away from the stupidity i.e. "anti science mind" that has engufled the American government under Trump's leadership and spread nby Fox News. These are huge ethical issues and they will not be sucessfully resolved without thougtful deliberation and that means applying scientific method within an appreciation of the humanities...
1
This is amoral corruption at the highest level. I'd like to see an effort in Congress to craft legislation that prevents the sale and sharing of US technology and services that are proven to be employed in the political control of people, as in this case. Maybe we should extend that to weapons, too! We are the biggest arms exporter in the world. Somehow, I don't see that ever happening, however, we will pump the world full of armaments until the apocalypse.
2
@JS In a time when your president is actively attempting to export nuclear technology to Saudi, there are really no defenses, at the level of We The People, against greed, grift and tyranny.
We are doomed.
Reading about this made me physically ill. It reminds you that China should not be a “most favored nation.”
4
why is this article about DNA instead of the 1,000,000 people enslaved in China illegally?
why is the world doing nothing about this?
this has been going on for years and years
3
@Paul Schejtmanwhat proof do you have that they have 1000000 People enslaved? Have you personally seen them?.
Don’t say anything if you have no idea what your talking about.
Beyond scientific purposes and criminal investigations, the human consuption for the "need to know" is beyond belief.
Yes, what is/was happening here is a human rights violation of privacy. It should be condemned under no uncertain terms.
Be weary of your bedpartners; get to know them first.
@Coffee Bean
Weary or wary?
@Byron Jones
Or both... Thanks for pointing out the error.
After facial recognition, AI, and other digital technologies, China now want to use another western expertise to create a more authoritarian regime and to monitor its citizens. Such repression are mainly being used against its minorities- political, religious, and racial minorities.
Poor Pakistan and other autocratic Islamic countries who are now close allies of communist regimes of China and Putin's Russia. Those communist regimes (directly or indirectly) are massacring it's own Muslim minorities while promoting and protecting Islamic terrorists originating from those Islamic or Muslim majority countries when those terrorists are attacking democratic countries like USA, India, UK, EU etc.
3
Ah, science, and Yale, in the service of humanity. Makes one feel warm and tingly, and in good hands.
What's next from our "best and brightest"?
3
This is an important story, and I'm glad to see the NYT pick it up. Anthropologist Mark Munsterhjelm published a short piece on it at: https://sites.library.queensu.ca/transmissions/authoritarianism-and-indigenous-peoples-in-the-development-of-forensic-genetic-technologies/
2
There is no freedom in Communist China, as this article so frighteningly shows. The ugly name: "Re-education Camps" shows how two-faced the CCP is in it's way of dealing with People. Xi is following a long tradition of theft and guile.
In 1959, Mao and the Communist Red Guard invaded the neighboring Nation, Tibet, and stole it at gunpoint - murdering many thousands of people, and jailing thousands more for practicing their Faith. Tibet was a non-aggressive, peaceful Nation. Mao "claimed" that the Tibetan People were begging for his help to free them from the horrible despot - the Dali Lama. What a lie !! The People of Tibet still dearly love the Dali Lama, and wish they could have their Nation and Freedom back, after 60 years of CCP theft and abuse.
Fly a Tibetan Flag, or show a picture of the Dali lama today in Tibet, and you go to prison in VERY harsh conditions for a long time.
China's false smile is evident in Xi's "One Road, One Belt". Across Asia and Africa, China takes mineral rights, agriculture and water from anyone they choose, while building an infrastructure that keeps those Countries under the CCP's boot heel.
America's freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, freedom of Assembly, AND our ability to Vote as Citizens is unheard of in a repressive Country like Communist China.
May the World see Communist China's lie for what it is. As in Tiannamen Square - citizens, peacefully assembled, asking to Vote - and then, shot dead.
10
That's what you get with a single payor health system.
1
Are these American companies and scientists that naive? I don't believe it.
4
It is outrageous an American company and a geneticist were complicit with something as abhorrent as what was and continues to be done to these people; simply because of their race. This is the most extreme misuse of DNA mapping and genetics.
There is not a way I can imagine the company in Mass. and the Yale geneticist could have done this in complete ignorance. They know better than anyone what is possible with the misuse of DNA findings.
64
@Easy Goer
Agreed
4
@Easy Goer This is the logical conclusion to the concept expressed in the Masterpiece Bakery case, that a business must sell its product to any legal customer no matter what the intended use is.
2
Dr. Kidd said, I would assume they had appropriate informed consent on the samples..."
Thermo Fisher says in a report, "Our greatest success story in emerging markets continues to be China."
China wants to persecute ethnic and religious groups. Now they will have the necessary means to hurt those who don't meet the proper ethnicity. This is an abomination brought to China by an American company and an American citizen.
How many dictators all over the world are watching?
4
The word liberal in 'liberal democracy' is all about balancing the rights of individuals with the collective decisions of our democratically elected representatives.
State registers of compulsory DNA data, face scans and voice recordings would horrify the American War of Independence revolutionary Tom Paine.
The West's free market economic model and its 'light-touch' regulated financial sectors must look to the China model with a tinge of envy. The latter's model maintains strong central one-party political control whilst encouraging a free market economy but, to date, maintaining a close and highly interventionist, when politically needed, domestic financial sector.
Oh, if only we could emulate the Chinese political model, some in the West say. What a great way of managing the political risks that business and finance have to put up with in the West. The vagaries and vicissitudes of our supposed liberal democratic model put too much of a burden on business, they say.
Just wait until the Chinese state fully embraces 'light touch' financial regulation, they say. A business paradise.
The problem is: one cannot have a free domestic market, a deregulated domestic financial sector and a one party authoritarian state, all in one.
In time, sooner rather than later I suggest, something has to give in the state of China if the Chinese political class continues to want 'its cake and eat it'. The erstwhile Union of Soviet Socialist Republics comes to mind.
2
CHINA AStep to far. This Will eventually implode. There will be no innovation,little growth,no enjoyment,no culture,no free thought. Do what the state wants. People want to enjoy life not just produce and sell though there is a lot of that thought in China. Hope things change. xi and the Chinese congress implement a bland life for the Chinese to adhere to. How boring. These societies eventually fail.
@richard
China has had firm control over its peoples at least since Mao Zedong. They are using US info to refine their methods of control. Since it has been well over 70 years that they have successfully maintained control, what makes you think that w/ even better methods in place, they will stop, or that their society would somehow implode?
I agree that people want pleasant things in their life for themselves and their children, but wanting is not the same as getting.
What made the USSR fall apart was the financial ruin caused, in part, by the money they were spending to keep up w\ the USA in the arms race. And now that arms race is beginning again, courtesy of our idiotic prez, and will probably involve more countries. China has a strong economy and has already built its nuclear weapons (any one of which, from any of the nuclear countries, including China, is capable of destroying the world many times over, —and that any life forms that might survive will submit to nuclear winter and starve to death.)
I’m no hacker, but it seems that might be a way to intefere w/ their information stores. It’s already been done to us by Russia, and other countries, as well.
@richard
China is innovating on a massive scale.
Sometimes their innovation is terrifying but make no mistake they are growing, they are innovating and they are enjoying life albeit with less freedom that few over there appear to miss because it would appear that more Chinese people are happy with their lives today than they were 50 years ago.
They are doing some things right and a few things terribly wrong. However thinking that they will fail or implode is just wrong. Ain't gonna happen.
We are needlessly ceding our lead with a combination of political infighting, greed and laziness of policy and action that prevents us from protecting our most vital assets and institutions. We better step up our game and not just hope that they implode or the ones doomed will be us.
@richard Well I am hoping.
This is what is being done in India in the name of universal biometric identification number Aadhaar, that the benevolent Mr Bill Gates is pushing for assisted by the World Bank. The two most populous countries in the world will have their citizens' data in insecure databases, ripe for exploitation by cyber criminals and their govts for political control. We in America can keep pretending that we are merely assisting them. It's sickening what's being done to the human race in the name of tecg development and profit.
1
@MG
What is being done in India nowhere compares with China. India is taking bio metric measurements as opposed to DNA sampling large segments of its population.
India is trying to count its population and use Aadhaar as a way of delivering social services to its most vulnerable.
The simple fact is that without consistent counts of people it is impossible to plan and measure programs and budgets.
Aadhaar though sometimes incorrectly implemented is a step in the right direction. Yes..it could be misused, but what data can't be misused?
But you are right in that a lackadaisical attitude toward data security and general incompetence among some of the people implementing the program will create more problems for the many who need help the most.
What is happening in China is actually outright terrifying. The potential for misuse and abuse is horrifying. And it appears that the dna collection is another regressive control mechanism of the state with no altruistic motives.
1
What would you expect from a dictatorship country? Seems foolish to expect anything else.
5
Well, probably all started with USA educating foreign students for a price. If you take in private foreign students and educate them in your own nations institutions then your own students miss out on opportunties when you charge for education. Education should be free for all USA born citizens and that includes varsity as well. (Just my opinion) Privatising education has long term repurcussions.
1
@CK Here in my state college or tech school is free. Not everyone can do what is needed, in fact only a small minority can. And most large colleges are state run institutions.
How amazing that Dr. Kidd, a lauded geneticist from Yale, could work so closely with this Chinese organization and only “recently learn” of his host’s sinister, over-arching surveillance state.
13
Amazing? Implausible, I would have thought.
@Jack Dorn, because of the money, no one could ever convince me that he did not have any idea what was going on.....and he has a Phd, right???
Geneticism is one step away from Eugenics.
3
Why should this be any surprise? From Russia, to China, to Vietnam, Cambodia, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, etc., this is how socialist/communist countries behave.
So why, precisely, do some Americans want to embrace socialism?
3
No, @Liberty hound, this is how AUTHORITARIAN states behave.
2
A sad situation in the United States where the the president is a prime suspect of treason yet he is supported by a major party and his cult. An even sadder situation in China where modern day ethnic cleansing is happening and nobody can do anything. What's even sadder is that some Chinese think it's acceptable.
Hope some music may help brighten your day.
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
- Beetles
6
@jianwei Sure the president is suspect, in the fantasy alternative reality world that progressives reside in. And legal treason requires a war, obstruction of justice requires a crime. Soon perhaps we will know what was found and what was not found. Can't be soon enough.
1
@vulcanalex... treason doesn't necessarily require a war... adhering to the enemy is one definition and that certainly applies! As does obstrucion of justice, which you point out requires a crime, which I think has been established. I think even if Mueller's report is released tomorrow the consequences will be playing out for years to come!
1
How is halting shipments to Xinjiang only going to help? Thermo Fisher must think we’re stupid!
A reminder to my fellow Americans; this is the country we buy all our stuff from!
3
I go out of my way, often paying more, or simply doing without, just so I can avoid sending any $ to China. I haven't eaten in a Chinese restaurant in 2 decades. I'd rather go hungry. Clothing purchased from a major outdoor retailer was returned (at my expense) just because it was made in China.
We The People have the power to say no to China. We just need the collective will to do so,
Dear China, sometimes it's hard to know who is worse between you and Russia. Take care.
5
Some USA companies already use voice recognition software by their call centers. You are notified of it in the recording that is played prior to a customer service rep coming on line when you make a phone call to them. I believed this occurred when I called a banking institution. I hung up.
3
American made surveillance. Just a matter of time before it is in full effect in the US.
6
Make this illegal, or it will wind up here — it's as simple as that.
I've worked for large companies and have been very aware that we were all being monitored like criminals in a high security facility. This was being done not because there was anything being stolen or any problem with productivity but just so the tech people could bargain for political and salary gains with what they'd gathered on people. Of course they couldn't play prison guard without the encouragement of the bosses,yet those bosses created a monster and many of us considered this atmosphere a good reason to chose a job somewhere else as soon as it came up.
It wasn't good for business. It will be a disaster for democracy.
8
So, the subjects do not have to get their fingers all inky, or do they? What about photos? Do the Chinese photograph subjects? The question for me is whether or not this or that dissident could have been handled differently all together, not how they get registered. Meanwhile, the United States of America has more total prisoners per capita than China and China has been doing better than us economically for a couple of decades; China has not been at war as much as us in recent decades. Why sound an alarm over Chinese collecting the DNA of he people they are incarcerating: It's probably a good idea.
2
@marcoslk No. This is morally and ethically wrong. If you don't see the danger in that, you will eventually be subjected to the same treatment.
2
This article reminds me of the gripping series made of Margaret Atwood's "Handmaid's Tale". Its dystopian message seemed outlandish when I read the book (I think it came out in the 1980s) but this is no longer the case. The handmaids' ultimate goal was to escape a repressive, controlling, dangerous U.S. - to Canada. Seems to me that any country worth its salt would be putting its foot down about a basically unregulated industry - the tech. sector. But then, most every other sector here in the U.S. is un, or de regulated already so why fuss?
3
After 30 plus years of academic research, I can say every university committee charged with oversight of human subject research I had contact with had a dim view of researchers who offered "I assume..." as their means to establish consent of the participants in their research.
11
Given the current political climate, I'm of the opinion that even countries that use DNA for capitalist concerns won't hesitate to use the information for nefarious political reasons when the planets align the right way.
6
It is certain that genetic data will be used to control populations. That's the future.
8
Currently detaining one million, or over a course of time have detained up to one million, each detention for an unknown length of time?
5
I've known a lot of scientists. They may be very interested in scientific research and good at what they do but they are not born with or necessarily trained to have sound ethics any more than the rest of us. And if your discipline is genetics, you are well aware of the ethical questions surrounding human genotyping.
People in China live in a much more closed and monitored society than we do and their privacy and human rights are not comparable to ours, even in the Trump era. Let's hope it stays that way.
5
@a goldstein It's this type of naivte that enabled Hitler.
In the USA we also have a great deal of DNA that has been collected by various organizations, like the one used in the capture of a murderer from decades ago, that the government has access to as if they collected it themselves. I really see no difference.
1
Quite a huge difference when the DNA in the US is predominantly offered up with consent. Aside from criminal DNA, the US government doesn't currently forced any targeted demographic to have their DNA taken and used for nefarious purposes... not yet at least. Can't really see the comparison you are attempting to draw.
4
@Miguel
But people here are PAYING for companies to take their DNA. Those companies then turn around and sell the data. That is already happening. To the government, insurance companies, foreign governments? We don't know. We do know they don't make their huge profits from the $100 fee. After all, it was the wife (now ex) of Google's mastermind, that began 23 and Me. Just another platform for data commerce.....
1
@Miguel
My mother took one of those stupid genealogy DNA tests. As such, there is enough of my genetic information to personally identify me collected in that generally unregulated database. Consent to collect my personally identifiable genetic data was neither requested nor given. The means may differ, but the end result is the same.
many, if not most western technologies and companies using it for commercial purposes and greedy universities and a large section of so-called scientists are actually helping autocratic regimes around the world and that includes China. there is not a single original research and novel technology that came up from China so far.
The other issue is- globalization actually helped the private companies more and its shareholders than the almost any countries. Corporate lobbyists in USA and other western democracies are beating the drum of this globalization more. China or Russia can not generate wealth by itself and they used western investment and continue to exploit western technologies and, more importantly, our consumers to get rich only to threaten us and global security.
7
The Chinese have stood accused for years of keeping biological information on prisoners, and selling their organs to medical tourists who don't want to wait months or years for a donor in their home countries. I used to work with transplant physicians and surgeons, and recall one doctor relating to several others that one of his patient was able to get a new liver within 2 weeks of going to China for that purpose. My heart goes out to the Uighur people. They are being erased.
23
We can point out the splinter in ThermoFisher's eye, upbraiding them for selling lab equipment to the Chinese.
Or we could talk about the board in arms dealers' eyes... the US sells far more than anyone else--and increasingly is unbound by ethics or moral authority in doing so.
4
@Pence
"We" don't talk about the "board in arms dealers' eyes". Seems to be a forbidden, off-the-table topic. I keep waiting for media such as the New York Times to start shining the light. As to any ethics or moral authority as to whom we sell our arms, we have a president right now who uses those very sales to justify our "friendship" with Saudi Arabia.
1
@Pence Americans can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Sorry folks, you always should read the fine print when doing anything. If you don't your DNA testing service can do what they want to with your information. You can't go through life assuming that you an give away personal information without consequences.
9
@James exactly. I am really surprised by the willingness of so many to give a DNA sample. Do the DNA companies offer counseling to those who find out that their parents aren't biologically related? I doubt it.
@James I have at times thought about doing dna for ancestry purposes. But the more I see our rights here being taken away, drip by drip, by people in both parties, I have changed my mind.
I have nothing to hide and at this age, becoming a newbie in crime is out of the question.
I am also very tech savvy and own my share of modern devices. I will not have a "listening device" in my home.
I'm sure some of you feel the same way.
My motto is "Don't help them!!" Give truthful information and bodily fluids, when required.
1
@James
My mother took one of those stupid genealogy DNA tests. As such, there is enough of my genetic information to personally identify me collected in that generally unregulated database. Consent to collect my personally identifiable genetic data was neither requested nor given.
The truth is that until our government acts, we have no rights to genetic privacy in the US. There is a high likelihood that they will never act because they would do exactly what the Chinese are doing if they could. If any of your close relatives have ever taken one of those tests, you are essentially in the database as well. Tough luck
I find the US Scientists’ reception of DNA data from the Chinese especially concerning. They cannot be so naive. To get this kind of personal data for a study under the “assumption” that its participants consented violates basic ethics in US Universities. Even a very junior researcher knows that. Greed comes in many forms, not all of them financial.
20
The genie is out of the bottle. You can't put it back in. Like any technology, this can be used for good and evil. I think we would be better off recording everyone's DNA at birth. More kidnapped children would be recovered (and not after a twenty-year wait). More crimes would be solved. I'm all for it.
2
"“Honestly, there’s been a kind of naïveté on the part of American scientists presuming that other people will follow the same rules and standards wherever they come from,” Dr. Caplan said."
I have the utmost respect for Dr. Caplan. He's appears to be right in asserting American scientists must be careful in an era where the world's strongmen and autocrats are increasingly seeking new medical technologies to monitor and control their people.
I find it frightening that technologies that show so much potential for helping mankind are being used for nefarious purposes. It's Brave New World and 1984, all rolled up into one in a day and age when authoritarianism and mind control are running rampant.
11
At least it was free to the test subjects. Here the subject pays for the testing and the service provider surreptitiously turns the results over to the authorities.
3
@Greg Daley
What are you talking about? Please provide examples.
@Greg Daley
It's the American way.
@Greg Daley Annals of free health care.
Dr. Kidd is not being straight when he states he was unaware of how his material and know-how were being used. He and any other scientists who knowingly cooperated and exchanged intellectual knowledge and know how with the Chinese during expensed paid trips are guilty of incredibly unethical behavior and greed. Anyone working for the US government, a US corporation or a US academic is well aware that any potentially sensitive dealings with any Chinese national, just as with any Russian national, have to be considered and scrutinized very carefully with an eye towards the fact that the authorities are always looped in somehow. Outrageous behavior on the part of those involved and named in this excellent reporting.
16
I wish I had time for this, it is very important. Instead, I need to go an find out if anyone in my family had their health information exposed in a data breach of medical records for University of Washington Medical Center.
What is this world coming to?
1
This is terrifying. Currently the USA has its own database and collects DNA even if you're not convicted of a crime. It was also discovered that one agency that does ancestry DNA test was sharing info with the government. Our DNA is highly personal. It should be treated like protective health info. However, due to the desire to catch criminals we have over committed ourselves to the collection of DNA and over ridden the consent of people. We should be more critical and vigilant
4
I hope charges of being an accessory to genocide are pending for Thermo Fisher corporate officers and the Yale professor. To say you thought a communist country would act within scientific norms is hardly believable coming from a Yale geneticist.
20
Suddenly I think Trump’s trade tariffs against the Chinese are a good idea. Can we block their ships from docking in American ports?
When free trade enables genocide, it’s time to end the trade relationship.
10
Except trump keeps indicating he'd let any impasse slide. Are you sure he's not willing to let negotiators miss the deadline because he might be able to get the blueprints to do the same thing here?
4
Philip K. Dick's dystopian vision of future society is coming to a reality near you!
9
“Our greatest success story in emerging markets continues to be China”
Fischer and Kidd must’ve been shocked out of their boots to discover - quelle horreur! - that China was using their technology and databases for anything other than God’s work.
These poor Ivy League professors and multinational billion dollar companies, as innocent and naive as babes!
20
Welcome to 1984.
3
WHY is this country aiding this in any way???
7
When will the oppressed people of countries like China, Russia, the USA, and theocracies finally rise up and stop their awful governments? Most people just want peace on this planet.
4
It is time that we demand that our businesses, educational institutions and governments operate with a moral compass, instead of propping up authoritarian dictators because of political or financial expediency.
As consumers and citizens we have the power to demand change in the way organizations do business. I am sickened by their willingness to turn a blind eye to China’s legendary human rights abuses for a buck.
Stories such as this, and the recent one regarding McKinsey consultants’ ongoing business interests in China, while mindlessly holding a posh luxurious desert ‘company retreat’ only miles from Uighur concentration camps, are a travesty. Have these folks no shame?
Boycott universities, companies, and governments (with your dollar or ballot), those who espouse being forces for good, but whose every act betrays such lofty ideals.
140
Moral compasses? The millions supporting Trump lost theirs, if they had any to begin with. It's disingenuous to demand businesses operate with moral compasses. First, get a leader of this country who has one and then re-educate his cult.
5
@historicalfacts...Us never had no morale compusses to start with. Then, us found some in a dumpster. Us was elated. Our own compusses....Sad story. Turns out the compusses was the ones y'all libbes thru away long time ago. So, turns out us went from no compussess to worthless compusses. Us thru them back in the dumpster. Yur welcome to dumpster dive for them. Cant be no worse then the ones y'all got now.
This article really makes me regret doing 23andme. The Chinese government sees so much value in DNA analysis that they are taking samples from people forcefully--why oh why did I pay $200 to volunteer this precious, personal data to a private company?
21
@S
Pretty sure that 23andme is not bound by the Hippocratic oath. So when Republicans successfully repeal protections for preexisting condition coverage, genetic testing companies can sell your data to insurance companies. Or maybe for a monthly fee they'll keep it secret for you...
6
@S
No different from signing up to FB. At least with the US government you have some degree of power in accountability for the data. With a private enterprise, you are at the whim of whomever in control.
Once again duped by tech and hype.
@S
Hate to break it to you, but you also gave away your immediate families genetic information without their consent. My mother took one of those stupid genealogy DNA tests. As such, there is enough of my genetic information to personally identify me collected in that generally unregulated database. Consent to collect my personally identifiable genetic data was neither requested nor given.
The truth is that until our government acts, we have no rights to genetic privacy in the US. There is a high likelihood that they will never act because they would do exactly what the Chinese are doing if they could. If any of your close relatives have ever taken one of those tests, you are essentially in the database as well. Tough luck
3
Might be time for universities to abstain from working with China in general. You can’t trust a soul within their government from the sound of it. Safer to assume China will do something under the table that is sketchy than be above board and honest about their intentions
11
My first reaction when ThermoFisher was named in the article was to say ‘oh- well, they sold some PCR machines, never dreaming that this was how they would be used’. And to think that they’re no more complicit than Ford is when someone kills a pedestrian with one of their cars. But reading into the article- there is reason to think that people knew more about who they were dealing with and should have been a little more credulous about what was happening with this technology and data, given the past behavior of the Chinese government. That being said- the excuse that they’re just looking for help setting up a database to help solve crimes is pretty plausible. Look up how the Golden State Killer was caught. I know that we want to say that we should come up with a national policy on how US businesses and entities interact with ‘China’ but that’s going to be difficult if you want to maintain a free market and you can’t even figure out where Chinese companies end and the Chinese government begins.
1
@Leigh, It's quite simple. Chinese companies are always compliant to the Chinese Government
4
The export of equipment used by law enforcement requires an export license. This means that the Federal Government has its finger in this pie, too. According to the article: "To bolster their DNA capabilities, scientists affiliated with China’s police used equipment made by Thermo Fisher, a Massachusetts company."
According to 15 CFR § 742.7: "Crime control and detection. (a)License requirements. In support of U.S. foreign policy to promote the observance of human rights throughout the world, a license is required to export and reexport crime control and detection equipment, related technology and software as follows:..."
5
In this day and age, all around the world, the fact that there is DNA available, facial recognition, etc. has made it possible for it all to be used for good, and for screening at airports, and cameras positioned not only in public places, but private residences as well. The fact that the use of all it for fighting crime, and terrorism, is sadly, necessary in this day and age, we are living in. However, using it solely to target one ethnic group, within a race of people, is what appears to be happening in the case of China, which is probably the only country large enough with 1.5 billion people, who could even have the resources, and people to accomplish this vast catalog of their population. We know that there are no privacy rights guaranteed n Communist China, not like we have here, in western Europe, Canada, Australia, etc.
5
Remember folks, it’s never a good idea to share samples of your genome.
You are a unique and beautiful arrangement of sequencing. Gattaca!
9
@ubique
Often, we don't have a choice. My mother took one of those stupid genealogy DNA tests. As such, there is enough of my genetic information to personally identify me collected in that generally unregulated database. Consent to collect my personally identifiable genetic data was neither requested nor given.
The truth is that until our government acts, we have no rights to genetic privacy in the US. There is a high likelihood that they will never act because they would do exactly what the Chinese are doing if they could. If any of your close relatives have ever taken one of those tests, you are essentially in the database as well. Tough luck, i guess
1
both the Yale researcher and that company are complicit, and it strains credulity to think that they were so naive as to consider that the sole intent of the technology transfer would be for the medical benefit of its citizens. China citizens have no real civil rights and will soon be subject to AI-driven codes and computer algorithms that will be used to score citizenship points that will be tallied by the government. Here, in America, we have equally urgent issues regarding the 23 and Me genetic companies for whom no regulatory oversight exists over a person's DNA that could be exploited and used with no consent from that individual. Privacy is increasingly elusive in the nascence of our AI world, and we need a consortium of policy thinkers and scientists to engage in real solutions before genetic data and AI are irrevocably weaponized.
24
Americans, as a whole, are completely ignorant of geography and history. Our utter ignorance continually gets us in to trouble like this....
The Chinese have been waging a war against the Muslim, Turkic-speaking Uighurs for decades. In lieu of murdering them all, China has been busy destroying the Uighur language, culture, and their homeland via ethnic cleansing, ‘reprogramming’ and internment, as well as imprisoning the leaders of their human rights and independence movements.
What immoral and ignorant humans populate McKinsey, Yale, and Thermo Fischer?
1
This is not a new phenomenon. IBM technology was used to help perpetrate the Holocaust and enabled the Nazis to track people and assets to their advantage. Standard Oil provided the essential lead additives for fuel that enabled the Nazi war machine to maneuver on land, sea and air. Ford and GM were building tanks until the end of the war at their wholly-owned factories in Germany. No, not a novelty. Staunch American patriots have made a handy profit selling out our country to its enemies for quite a long time.
45
@Tournachonadar Not heard of any of these cases, and do not believe that IBM willingly did this. Or Standard Oil for the matter. But sadly what you say is too believable and there must be legislation (with this President and NO leadership how this will come about is just another of the challenges we face) to curtail this sharing. We are being shredded for our development of technology by our enemies.
3
You could read a book titled “IBM and the Holocaust,” by Edwin Black, first published in 2001. Or search Wikipedia for that phrase to see a summary.
4
@JHM
You might want to check more deeply into IBM's and Standard Oil's involvement with the Nazis. Prepare to revise your belief that they did not "willingly" do so.
3
Of course, so let's keep advertising to everyone to get their DNA tested so that they can know their ancestry. People do not realize that this is what is being done with the DNA after they get the results. Like lemmings rushing to the sea.
187
@yakafluss
Many of us have found that we are between 2% and 4% lemming.
65
Thank you! My family and friends think I am crazy when I tell them the business model for these ancestry companies is the selling of their data! You PAY for them to make money off your data. No coercion here! Who knows where it ends up or will end up....
44
@yakafluss
The same could be said for FB.
16
China has been solving cold case murder from more than 20 years ago by using DNA technology similar to recent reports of cold cases from Alaska and New Hampshire from 50 years ago. It's a question of value system whether justice is more important than the right not be caught. true, China requires suspects provide DNA to police while we stealthily get it from discarded cigarette butt or Coke can, and Uighurs are in fact no different when China is going DNA data base for every Chinese. I think most people will agree with China on the sanctity of DNA, and whether you fear police when you didn't commit any crime.
2
@xeroid47 It is more than requiring this from criminals. It is controlling citizens who want freedom.
16
@JHM Nobody has the freedom to blow himself up together with other civilians and nobody has the freedom to become radicalized and join the islamic state. Not here, not in china, not anywhere
2
And we want to continue trading with this country? It's amazing how money trumps (pun totally accidental) ethics every time.
20
"Dr. Kidd said he had been unaware of how his material and know-how were being used. He said he believed Chinese scientists were acting within scientific norms that require informed consent by DNA donors."
Lots of folks living in ivory towers at Yale. I'm sure the good professor's knowledge of China is limited to what he eats in his local Chinese restaurant.
21
This is more Orwellian than anything Orwell himself ever envisioned. Todays dictators prefer to stamp out thoughtcrimes decades before they occur with genecrimes.
58
It sounds like the Brave New World.
15
Well this is terrifying.
30
One of trump’s many abhorrent derelictions of duty as “president” has been his fawning, sycophantic treatment of dictators like Xi Jinping and his complete refusal to call out authoritarian regimes like the Chinese Communist Party for their human rights abuses. I have absolute confidence that a Democratic president would not let Xi get away with the internment and indoctrination of ethnic and religious minorities.
Pathetically, this “president” has no spine or conscience.
24
@Casey Penk In addition to what you state about trump is the fact that he hates anyone not lily-white. The fiasco on our southern border and his attempt to get a wall built to keep refugees from countries with mixed ethnicity out are a clear indication of his racism.
1
@Casey Penk That is not true according to this article in the Financial Times:
https://www.ft.com/content/f83b20e4-8e67-11e8-9609-3d3b945e78cf
The Chinese are wary of Donald Trump’s creative destruction
The president is the first US leader in decades to challenge China on multiple fronts
1
Speaking as a Chinese national, one day we are all going to be healed responsible for this and get asked why we ignored it and how we let it happen. And like Germans in the fifties, we are gonna say that we didn’t know.
50
@Amanda Fu
No, ones who ignored it and are honest with themselves are gonna say we were naive and stupid.
1
@Amanda Fu
Thirties and Fourties. You make a valid point thoough
.
2
Well, I would have thought this was part of their organ harvesting program but they didn’t check his kidneys. China, the emerging super power, is going to give us a lot of anxiety in the coming years.
20
Expect to see Chinese made sequencers soon, don't be surprised if they will have a striking similarity to Thermo Fisher. devices.
21
@William Nelson
They already have their own machines.
2
@marco Well, they do now.
Sure they didn’t know how it was being used. Sure. Amazing how innocent and naive they were. Anything for money.
9
China uses DNA/to keep track of all its prey/Have they got yours now on file?/Ask them and they only smile.
3
Well, this article is censored in China so their citizens are conveniently in the dark anyway (or they would just call it western propaganda).
16
If our government stays on the authoritarian path it is currently on, Dear Leader Trump will be using this technology to keep track of the socialist genes.
5
Or the ethnicities he already believes are inferior. He went hard against a judge born in America but of Mexican descent. I find it all chilling.....
1
money... lots and lots of money. no ethics, no concern about the abuses, no morals... just staggering and bottomless greed.
5
Oh wow! Husband of a dear friend headed up Thermo Fisher in China for 5 years a few years ago. Wow!
2
Essentially, the combined forms of technology available have the effect of making us all prisoners, or perhaps, probationers, who could be hauled in at any time for offenses as defined by powerful governments.
The Uighers are targeted by the Chinese; here, I'm sure that many people would support such monitoring of resident aliens or non-citizens. people in unpopular religious groups.
Maintaining civil rights is going to be a fight.
44
" Thermo Fisher said it would stop selling its equipment in Xinjiang.."
What difference does this make? They will ship the gene sequencers from Beijing to Urumqi.
Regulators might also want to look into TFs role as a monopoly in the US - it bought out the rivals and raised prices afterwards, classic monopolist behavior.
53
I think that people forget that China is still a Communist regime ruled country. The dictatorship of the proletariat still is the government. Under that system there is no permission to govern given by the governed. The mandate to rule is based upon a belief in historical determinism. All living people are expendable under this philosophy. There is no law that constrains what the government may do nor how. Thus no person has any rights not granted by the government.
The fact that people without any conscience from the U.S. or any other place are willing to collaborate in undermining human rights with this Chinese regime should be no surprise. Conservative political theorists have advocated for basely selfish conduct to make money without any constraints by government for nearly half a century. This man ‘s business deserves sainthood according to the values of the right in this bounty.
13
I believe the usual U.S. government statement will be something along the lines of “the U.S. is deeply concerned” which is code for we will do absolutely nothing. I’m looking at my phone which is made in China. Am I complacent? Are we really concerned or are we enviously asking ourselves how we can get this same thing done in the U.S and Europe?
10
@William Perrigo In an ideal world, all nations could trade freely for the betterment and prosperity of people from all nations. Unfortunately, this world is far from ideal. America (and other democratic nations) must exert some oversight and veto power over these ventures in the interest of national security. Interdependent nations must remain aware of the ways in which their intellectual property is being bought, or often, stolen. When an American academic goes to China to essentially help sell technology created here, alarm bells should go off somewhere in our government. I hope those bells aren’t muffled by gigantic wads of cash (or cryptocurrency.)
2
The reversal trends in democractic and social liberty progress in China in the last 5 years are alarming and should worry all of us. However, this DNA story seems to require some scrutiny and should at least be placed in a larger framework of Chinese culture and background -- the author does not appear to have done her diligence in this regard.
In China (not just Xinjiang), a lot of ordinary citizens are offered to get a free annual physical checkup at their local medical clinics and hosptials where blood samples are taken routinely for various of analyses. This practice has been there for many years. Most Chinese people are not concerned or do not care much at all about protecting their personal health information or privacy issue including DNA (this is why many medical and genetics researchers from western countries like US like to go to China to perform large-scale studies, at least in not-so-distant past). I can imagine that police may get involved in some cases to get someone's DNA in the process, and nobody can stop them if they decide to do so. However, it is difficult to see this can be done on a massive scale -- it is too expensive (common sense?).
2
@RM
Apparently you missed the part of the article where Uighurs were told they couldn't ask questions and couldn't find out the results.
It also differs from what Han Chinese (majority ethnic group in China) experienced - they at least get the results of such tests.
Those two facts juxtaposed against each other should be a huge red flag as to what the intentions of the test were.
2
Nothing new here. Just more of the human tendency to define and then separate out the "other." In America we tend to think of China as being composed of one people. However, they are merely an empire run by the Han majority.
For all those Americans who are (often justly) critical of our nation's imperfections when it comes to the treatment of various ethnicities and "racial" groups, at least that is a public discussion, and we tend to measure both our successes and failures by the degree to which we adhere to fundamental principles of equality.
8
Frightening? Absolutely. Surprising? Not when it is coming from a communist nation with a President for life who brutally represses any dissent.
Once again this another dark facet of what China is really all about and yet another result of the Made in China label and allowing Chinese nationals access to higher education in US universities and colleges.
So sorry to witness the continual decline of American values and America's standing in the world due to corporate greed and a corporate funded Congress. We created this monster.
51
Outrageous immoral tyrannical behavior by a dictatorship that our politicians and businesses and yes even consumers must stand up to....these are human rights violations on a scale nearly too scary to imagine but which have become factual. We need to stand up to this; we need strong moral wise leadership.
17
@moosemaps
This is why I lament our leaving the Trans Pacific Partnership
4
From the Chinese perspective, there are fewer fetal incidents in Xinjiang in recent years. They are obviously succeeding in reduce violence. Only and if this becomes the consensus, there are maybe good arguments to relax some of the rules.
2
Hate crimes have risen in the US for three consecutive years. Should we detain a million white people and see if that helps?
4
@David
And it is so much cleaner than having groups of Red Guards drag people out of their homes for community accusation and education meetings.
it's unfathomable and scary for the US to participate in such inhuman activity. when are we going to learn? they must be laughing at us behind closed doors!!!
It is terrifying to know that all the good that came from discovering DNA could be appropriated for such evil. It is also very hard to believe that the American scientists had no clue to the reality.
53
@Kathryn like Trump knowing nothing about collusion with Russia...
2
Helping a totalitarian Dictatorship which engages in mass imprisonment, political executions and cultural genocide is clearly not a moral thing to do.
22
This is a dangerous time in the US. Our "change the world" Tech Bros at Facebook, Google and, now, DNA companies are happily enabling fascists, communists and totalitarian regimes around the world.
Even in the US, DNA testing is being used as a political device (jeez, Sen. Warren what were you thinking? You lost me on that one).
You've seen the commercials for DNA testing, right? My Jewish friends and colleagues rightly refuse use those because it is just a matter of time before some right-wing, Chinese, Russian, or other nefarious/terrorist group hacks into their databases and gets all that data. I recommend NOT using these services.
Congress and the White House are failing in their obligation to protect the interests of the United States by refusing to regulate high tech companies for what they are: modern day weapons manufacturers selling chaos to the highest bidder.
High-tech needs to lean out. It isn't making the world a better place. These Ivy League super-stars have been preened their entire lives with entitlements but without any sense of responsibility or moral outrage. They will happily sell out the remains of our barely functional democracy for a quick buck and the chance at a retirement estate in Hawaii.
71
I agree that the “fun” element of DNA testing being pushed in broadcast commercials and nothingburger articles (“these two baseball players took a DNA test to see if they are related!” entirely gloss over ethical, privacy, consent, etc. questions. Like, it is extremely frustrating seeing this wave of technology explode, and it is normalized to a degree such that people don’t even seem to really think about or care about the potential hazards and suppression of rights or minority groups: if not here, then elsewhere. We have got to do a better job of fostering honest discourse about DNA, AI, etc. then just turning it into a novelty. There are a lot of tools that can be used to make the world less free, and the US is not interested in a less free world.
On hackers accessing a US DNA database: per CNBC earlier this week, 147 million Equifax records lost in fall 2017 still haven’t been recovered, and a field expert believes it has fallen into the hands of an adversarial state for espionage purposes. In other words, yep, every database is one vulnerability away from losing whatever privacy actually is these days, and undermining national security.
3
@Wall Street Crime
"They will happily sell out the remains of our barely functional democracy for a quick buck and the chance at a retirement estate in Hawaii." No, not Hawai'i. New Zealand, they want to escape to New Zealand. the government of which has begun making it much more difficult to buy property for non-New Zealanders. So, ultimately, these misanthropes will have to evacuate themselves to Mars and destroy that planet, too.
4
@Wall Street
These companies, and others, are all flag-waving "Americans" when it comes to tax breaks and subsidies, but stateless entities, beholden to no one, when it comes to making money, hiding it, lying to Congress, and cozying up to foreign dictators. The Europeans at least are taking some action in this regard, but our kleptocrats just turn a blind eye.
1
I am so dismayed that an august US educational institution and an American corporation helped the notoriously repressive Chinese government in its mission to ethnically cleanse the Uighurs of northwest China. The Uighurs, a Muslim, Turkic-speaking minority have more in common with Baghdad than they have with Beijing. They need independence from China.
China disappears, imprisons, and murders Uighurs who advocate for civil and human rights. The Chinese government has interred millions in concentration camps.
American universities and businesses must refuse to be instruments used in the Chinese war against the Uighurs. Please operate as if you have a moral compass.
123
@Valerie Uighurs would be more inclined to join ISIS than having their own independent state. Are you going to support that? Beware of the Pandora's box!
1
An authoritarians dream: It will be impossible for dissenters of of the future to escape the reach of dictators with this new "tech."
15
One of the many reasons I served in the USMC was to preserve our democracy against horrors like this.
Imagine my disgust to think that our commander in chief is suspected to be a Putin puppet.
Whether Trump is proven guilty or not, his abandonment of those allies who helped us win WWII is completely backward. Any fledgling officer knows you're only as strong as the overall team.
Trump's threat to withdraw from NATO should be enough of a reason to impeach him. The fact that McConnell and the other republican traitors have failed to remove Trump from office is absolutely shocking and completely wrong.
I am appalled by such despicable behavior of people sworn to protect MY country.
Semper Fi.
95
Did you receive the results of the genetic testing run when you enlisted?
1
@John K (ret USMC)
Thank you for your service and for speaking out about the present political environment. As a former serviceman, your views carry greater weight with me than the usual observer.
I completely agree with you that what this president is doing to NATO is sufficient on its own to begin impeachment proceedings. What will it take for the Senate to actually speak to the needs of the nation over its own power? I am ashamed of what I see in our country.
3
This is certainly mind blowing. But next time try to leave a comment if you have to rule 56 ethnicities in one country. And then we can talk about how to not violate human rights when it comes to the safety of 1/4 population on the planet.
1
You know, there are an awful lot of ethnic minority groups in the US. I’m confused: are you arguing in favor of ethnic prejudice and internment?
2
@Ryan Swanzey It sounds like she is.
Why can't they use this DNA database to match the thousands of Chinese adoptees to their birth families? Their failed one-child social experiment has alienated tens of thousands of (mostly) Chinese girls who now live all over the world with adoptive families. Many of them would like to reconnect with their roots but the Chinese government isn't helping.
7
Excellent article. Would love to see a follow-up on how companies are navigating doing business in China, given the continued growth of its market. Do you ignore the ethical concerns (like Thermo Fisher seems to have) and do business to maximize shareholder return? Do you find a way to strike a balance? Or do you stay out of the market altogether?
Without clear guidance from policymakers, do business leaders participate in a race to the ethical bottom, or do they find a way to take a stand?
7
In order for Dr. Kidd to be believably not culpable, it would need to be true that he notified Yale University (as his employer, and to whom he undoubtedly owed such notice) of his distribution of his research to China and its government.
If Yale approved of Dr. Kidd's transfer of their intellectual property, most probably in violation of U.S. government rules and regulations, then Yale should be held accountable. Otherwise, it is Dr. Kidd, alone, who is accountable for an egregious violation of human rights against the Uighurs, and most probably a violation of numerous American and international laws.
It is impossible to believe that Dr. Kidd could at the same time be capable of cutting-edge DNA research and, simultaneously, clueless as to the potential harm such research could cause in the service of the Chinese government.
214
We might not know the motivation of the Chinese but with their long history of human right's abuses, the world should be gravely concerned. We're talking about the mass collection of a minority groups DNA for maybe an ulterior motives. The sad part is the willing blindness (active coordination?) of some American individuals and companies.
19
I guess the HIPAA police missed this one. I’m feeling a little queasy about the DNA testing I did and who has access to it. There’s a whole lot more to privacy than having some forms on file as those being victimized in China unfortunately know.
We need some serious legislation to control abuse of technology.
6
DNA testing is not protected by HIPAA unless your doctor did it. If you used a company like ancestry or 23 and me they must abide by their own privacy policies but not by medical legislation
27
The fine print on the “fun” DNA testing does NOT protect the privacy of your data. The business model is not one of providing a service to curious people (as they advertise), but in the selling of YOUR information to unclear entities. That is where they are making money. And we are PAYING them to do so! Incredible.
3
It's all about the money. American researchers and companies are willing to sell their knowledge,technology and equipments to whoever that have money to pay for them. In this case the chinese who pay for them for nefarious use and when exposed, these people and companies plead innocent. This movie has been played so many times that it's getting old.
18
Don’t be surprised that the United States is no different than China. A good majority of people don’t believe in freedom. Many of our leaders don’t believe in boundaries as it applies to them,
8
@Gary Ward But there have been checks on these people and now some go to jail such as Manafort, Flynn, and etc. But after reading this much more is needed, the problem is Trump and his cronies are in office. We must rid ourselves of them ASAP.
1
This is pretty close to the process that the United State Custom does to all its citizens upon entry of the US: photo, fingerprints, and ID, with the goal of accurate identification -- the same as China. The DNA and voice recording part simply shows China uses more advanced technology.
13
@Avi And does the US Custom target any particular ethnic group?
3
@Avi. Your comparison is completely wrong. As a US citizen I choose to travel abroad and as a result I accept submitting myself to the identification test my government requires when I return to the states. That is very different than the state required submission of my DNA while in my nation of residence against my will and for no publicly acknowledged purpose.
As for more advance technology (giggle)... I may quit traveling when the US government requires me to spit into a test tube upon reentry to the states.
7
@Ddot Be patient, that day will come. And they won't even need your spit.
3
The focus on American scientists sharing technology and information is very misleading. Science is based on a culture of collaboration and shared information. It breaks my heart that it was used this way
6
Is this the New York Times or Dystopian Science Fiction?
7
@Letitia Jeavons Or the truth, how about that? Perhaps you did not understand the message in the article, however sadly China does this to its citizens, counting how many go to a religious meeting and then controlling religion or belief, and in the process what their citizens are up to. Or they control what is show at plays and on TV, reviewing the message before it can be shown. The DNA is just more subtle, more sophisticated. So sad that you don't seem to get it.
37
Rubbio is starting to sound like McCarthy . If he he goes on like this, make no mistake about it, no American is safe from him and his China-hater minions. Make it up, blow it out of proportion, one sided smear, no end to it. As if the Chinese would really need American technology to do DNA sequencing to track people. That is just laughable. How they do it and for what purpose yes, it is a legitimate question, but you can ask this question of our own government just as well.
3
@Blue Zone Except that the article is written by a Chinese. And it is not CHina hater to blame the government for its controlling ways, is it?
6
That’s a weird comparison... McCarthy probably would have put a bunch of American dissidents in internment camps if he could’ve pulled it off.
1
I would assume Dr. Kidd is a jerk. Wined and dined by his good colleagues—the state police of a communist party dictatorship. How could a Yale professor have known? Sure there are classes on it all at Yale and Books and Books in the Yale libraries but what do you expect from a professor? Literacy? Human citizenship? This is Yale! This is a professor! He smart!
And the tool makers will stop selling in Xianjing?
Is that a joke?
They have heard of the Silk Road initiative that is based on the ability of humans to move objects from
Point a to Point b even across borders? And here the borders under the control of the Chinese Communist Party dictatorship?
Perhaps it is not a joke and the company itself is a joke.
But I thought maybe it makes Harvard look better for once as it was not the sophist factory selling out humankind. But a Massachusetts company??? Google tells me Peter M Nomikos Was a Harvard Business grad. I bet there is more.
Back to what you were doing self selected overlords. Humankind hadn’t quite been squashed yet and you are surely busy on the job undone.
26
And increasing trade with China is a good idea because...?
It is time to accept that China is a global threat and needs to be dealt with as such.
101
@QED - what... build ANOTHER wall?
4
Is Dr. Kidd clueless? Does he know nothing but genetics? World History past and current? Did he think to ask anybody about sharing this information? Talk to the State Department.Has the whole field really considered the implications of DNA analysis, and alteration? The implications for surveillance and social control? I guess the old saying, it can't happen here!
The same for Thermo Fisher? All about profits, a hot market? So is illegal gun sales, and drugs.
This goes along with the current administration wanting to give nuclear power to Saudi Arabia.
239
@Michael Piscopiello They were clueless until their participation in this horrible oppression by the CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY BECAME PUBLIC.The damage is done.These people and company should be charged with crimes against humanity.
11
@Carlos Lizarraga
So Thermo Fisher is not selling the equipment to one region in China. Of course the equipment cannot be transported within China.
3
@Michael Piscopiello I mean what repercussions has IBM ever faced for selling and maintaining census machines to/for Nazi Germany.
4
Very disturbing -- particularly since other news reports today suggest Trump is about to cave in to China.
24
Let’s not take China seriously until they teach the same history to their citizens as they do their censors.
2
How long will it be before the US gov does the same, if it has not started already? Mr. Aguilar's comment assumes the US gov (and the voters that elect it) are against this. We will see. The first step is to get rid of the authoritarian President Tantrump. No, the first step is to think for yourself.
10
The last time this country had an internment camp, it was World War II and the country had been bombed. It is amazing to me that it’s a serious question whether this government does or does not have an interest in detaining people to invade and monitor them, en masse, on ethnic grounds. That takes a special kind of paranoia, even at a time when the current guy in chief is remarkably tolerant and forgiving of obvious acts of ethnic discrimination and hate crimes.
Then again, it wasn’t long ago you could turn on the radio and here personalities masquerading as journalists who insisted Pres. Obama had his sights on an unconstitutional third term, and as a non-American, we were one moment away from martial law and FEMA camps. So I guess it’s not all that paranoid a worldview, because clearly it’s in the interest of some to put some personalities out there who’d like to espouse sci-fi as factual information. Why? Because seeding total distrust in institutions clears an easier path to power, and just like in sharing technology with other states, even though there ought to be moral responsibility, that has to come from the individual.
1
Chilling news, but who is in a place to stop China from abusing human rights in 2019? I can't say this sort of article is terribly surprising and in fact is probably par for the course that China has been on in the past few decades.
203
@Andrew Recent reports related the FBI accessing DNA testing service data suggested that only a small percentage of the whole population would be needed to identify . . . well everyone.
What is that critical mass of DNA data needed so that adding new data only increases the fine accuracy of the initial results?
Throw in, what will likely be, ubiquitous self-driving cars - could you design a better global surveillance platform than a devise equipped with radar, infrared camera, 360-video cameras, and audio? That people will ask for no less.
Add Google Home and Amazon Alexa with 24/7 365 in-home audio and video monitoring. Off course, a cell phone on every human sure wouldn't hurt.
Lyndon B. Johnson put it best but he was speaking specifically to legislation but it appears to be a universally applicable precept.
"You do not examine legislation (or anything for that matter) in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
38
@Michael
It would be helpful if our federal officials did their jobs - as European politicians seem to be doing - and reigning in technology corporations who cross over lines - particularly those that are invasions of privacy. But Congress and the Administration seem to only want to get rid of any constraining regulations, all in the name of making a buck.
20
@Andrew
Absolutely no one. The Chinese Communists are very explicit that there is absolutely no place in China for the Western notion that there is any such thing as human rights. They reject the existence of such.
25
This is starting to sound like ethnic cleansing for the 21st Century. It is frightening to see the time and resources spent by the Chinese in their effort to eradicate an undesired religion from their land. The US authorities should look into this story thoroughly.
84
@Jose Antonio Aguilar Under Trump and the Republicans you can bet the same is coming to the USA. The Republican party has aligned itself with the interests of white supremacists. This is a fact evidenced by White House communications (or lack of) regard white supremacist violence, police departments working with supremacist groups to track and harass anti-supremacists and federal law enforcement refusing to treat white supremacist crime as terrorism.
9
@Jose Antonio Aguilar
"The US authorities should look into this story thoroughly."
Unfortunately, with this current administration, if they were to look into this matter, they'd probably be asking China for advice rather than admonishing China for what they're doing.
It's truly incredible the extent to which China is taking to control, harass and subjugate not only Uighurs, but Tibetans, Falun Gong and other religious/ethnic minorities in China. The pictures of those police/security/thugs with red arm bands reminds me of the Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution. They aren't their for Uighur's security - it's to intimidate and harass.
But given how naive and historically/culturally unaware many Americans or Westerners in general are regarding the Chinese Communist Party , it's not a surprise that supposedly educated people like Dr. Kidd, Dr. Budowle and the management team at Thermo Fisher did what they did. In hindsight they should have known better than to trust China, but when billions of dollars are involved, it blurred their vision.
Thanks to the NYT and all the staff, as well as other news outlets that are shining a light on this. We're seeing a 21st century blueprint for mass incarceration unfolding right before our eyes.
46
@Jose Antonio Aguilar
@Jose Antonio Aguilar
That is a bunch of propaganda.
There are an equal number of Muslims living throughout China who are not Uighurs by heritage but who are known as Hui Chinese Muslims - 11 million - and Hui Muslims have lived in China for more than a millennia fully practicing their religion.
The crackdown on Uighurs stems from their jihadists who infiltrated Xinjiang beginning with Muslim jihadists of the nations bordering Russia (the Stans).
What this article omits is that there are an equal number of non-Uighur Muslims living in Xinjiang who are Tajik in heritage. These Muslims are not being re-educated because they did not become jihadists in the past ten to twelve years.
4