I can't stop thinking about how El Chapo could escape from the ADX, given his unlimited funds.
During his trial he'd develop a code so that information can be passed during the monitored through-glass family conversations.
Then they'd have to find out where in the facility El Chapo is being held. Perhaps get him to put something colored on his head, then use a high-flying plane with a powerful camera to take video and spot him working out in his private exercise yard, which has an open barred roof.
Then, while he's in that yard, bust in from above with a rocket-powered armored-box (like SpaceX's reusable boosters), with laser cutters on the base.
23
To be honest, the conditions of this prison leave me uneasy.
But, I have to say that I do enjoy the idea of El Chapo experiencing that he is not above the law. His entire adult life he has laughed at the law. Well, for 23 hours a day, justice has the last laugh.
While it may be cold comfort to the thousands of people he hurt and to the families of those he killed, it might be something.
16
ADX sounds perfect for El Chapo. Exactly what kind of rehabilitation would be expected of a man that made $14B trafficking drugs with all the terror and murder that goes along with that?
Yes, storing the evil in concrete boxes, away from any opportunity to do society more harm is perfectly just.
32
Why should we care about this animal? He's never going to get out; we're just locking him away so he can't hurt anyone again. Execution would be better, but this will do.
22
What is the big deal about the showers? The inmates have no way to get dirty and don't sweat. Dairy farmers, masons, washer women, sweat shop workers, wood cutters, and gardeners throughout the ages might have have a bath at most once a week if there were public baths or saunas.
15
The people who bought (and still buy?) drugs from this cartel must be feeling really good about putting this man in ADX.
6
I can't help but wonder how this prison affects the people who work in it.
48
There is no pity in me for this man. However, let's remember why he was in business in the first place. We used his drugs and the US demand for his product's is high....despite being illegal. Someone else just as vicious will take his place, if they haven't already, and as long as there is a huge market, this will continue.
20
I spent several years in Florence for a non-violent marijuana conviction. While at the adjacent low security prison, I was put on a work detail inside the ADX.
I doubt most readers have ever witnessed or heard psychological torture. It’s why the COs of Florence routinely turn down promotions or raises to entice them to work inside the facility, or why they transfer out at the earliest opportunity. Part of that “minimal human contact” mandate is to spare the COs the realization of what ADX is actually doing to its inmates.
The ADX wasn’t designed to punish or contain dangerous inmates. It was designed to torture them into nothingness.
106
Americans are really (and I mean really) into punishment. The idea of incarcerating someone because they are dangerous is simply not enough and they must be punished in some usually ill defined way but punished they should be. This is intimately connected to punishing children as well for whatever sins they are perceived to have committed. These kids grow up only to perpetuate the child rearing lessons they experienced. Teaching a child a lesson usually does not have anything to do with education.
Insofar as the supermax prison is concerned it seems to have a necessary place in our society and that necessity is not likely to disappear for centuries to come.
17
At a certain level of crime the individual has forfeited their human rights and are now property of the state. They are now raw material for the state to use to discourage the criminal behavior. The trick, and few societies have successfully navigated the issue, is who determines the crime level and what can be done with the criminal to discourage crime. The situation isn’t pleasant, but such is reality. Save your sympathy for the victims.
26
Are there legitimate and justified exceptions to the Golden Rule?
Not according to the Bible, in my reading anyway; but I'm neither Christian nor Jew. So on to philosophy:
Plato thought punishment was for rehabilitation, to socialize the criminal. Punishment was restorative for his immortal soul.
Aristotle labeled humans as political (social) animals. How social can one be in virtual solitary confinement, a hell on earth?
Since these two philosophers were the wisest of the wise, I would conclude that they'd be against ADX. They might, however, be for capital punishment: Some criminals can never be rehabilitated, and it's cruel to drag out their punishments. Cruelty hurts the punisher's soul, thus creating a lose-lose situation.
But, of course, I could be wrong about where Plato and his most famous pupil stood, or would stand, on this ADX issue. And even wise men can be wrong.
Nonetheless, I would much more quickly agree with them than with anyone now living. Which could also be a mistake. One gets few indisputable answers from philosophy; it thus tends to spawn analysis-paralysis. Religionists, however, can just consult the Good Book and pass the buck to the Alpha and the Omega, which can appease guilty consciences and make for uninterrupted sleep. Ignorance is bliss.
10
These extreme deprivations are not necessary for security. They are not conducive to rehabilitation for those who will return to society. The conditions of confinement would probably violate the ASPCA’s conditions for confinement of many sentient creatures. Yes, many if not most who are confined here are evil and dangerous. But the conditions of confimement we - all of us who stand by idly - have created here and continue to tolerate are nothing less than endlessly prolonged daily torture, wholly unworthy of the society we at our best aspire to be.
32
Who cares. This makes zero difference in the amount of drugs imported or consumed. All he did was sell a product to a more than willing consumer so perhaps we can find all the users and send them there as well
11
@Mons "All he did?!" You might want to have a look at reporting onthe trial, where Mr. Guzman's other activities were revealed to include raping teenage girls. Charges also included conpiracy to commit murder. [ https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/20/us/el-chapo-guzman-extradition/index.html] Generally speaking, running a multi-billion dollar international drug ring requires violence. He wasn't the neighborhood peddler, selling blunts to local kids.
31
Where does that $285 per month come from? Are they making Colorado license plates?
21
Sounds unimaginably grim, claustrophobic. But were any prisons - other than the ones lawyer Cohen and his ilk go to - designed for humanity? Rikers Island, any of them? Designed for inhumanity, more like.
6
(PART 1)Everyone posting negative opinions and wishing ill things on El Chapo as well as where he's going to spend the rest of his life should as a little compassion especially if you've never been locked up before. Everyone on this board has made mistakes in their life and so have I. I've had to spend time behind bars and I know what it's like to suffer from mistakes that haunt you well after you've served your time. My charges were non-violent they were all drug-related which I'm not proud of but I have changed my life around and I'm a completely different person than who I used to be. Unless you've been locked up you have no idea how horrible things can get and I guarantee where I was locked up, which is a federal prison, is kiddy camp compared to where El Chapo is going to spend the rest of his life. One thing that isn't mentioned is how you're treated, the news can portray certain facilities to be a certain way but in reality the real truth is the CO's (guards) make the rules. I'm not saying that being locked up should be a walk in the park because if you do the crime you do the time. No matter who you are, what color your skin is, everyone bleeds the same color and deserves to be treated in a humane way. What I find disgusting is child molesters, pedophiles, murderers that get locked up for a short amount of time and then released only to commit the same crime again. El Chapo should eventually be released..... Continued to the next comment that starts with Part 2.....
9
Why look at this type of incarceration so negatively ? Think of it as an opportunity.
Self examination often leads to enlightenment and what better place to have that occur than in a quiet environment void of outside distraction ?
Contemplation is often the foundation for personal and/or religious growth. Many go to great lengths to seek out and experience exactly this opportunity. Here it is easy. One has a private room with service and good food, a commissary with a running tab and no responsibilities other than the minimum. This gives the incarcerated the chance to contemplate, review, think, expand, reflect, and grow beyond the events that placed them in this situation.
Compare this to the life of a monk.
What would we wish for the most dangerous in our society but for them to use this opportunity to grow from within ?
21
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/inside-americas-toughest-federal-prison.html?module=inline
Read this article before you decide ADX is OK. Yes, psychopaths cannot be rehabilitated and need to be separated from society for our safety. Think of all the 13 year old girls El Chapo raped. But not everyone at ADX is a psychopath. And torturing humans, even them, lowers us to their level.
25
So basically it's a cemetery.
Well-deserved.
12
Do maximum security prisons allow conjugal visits or are they only for lower level criminals?
1
No US jails or prisons allow those.
4
That these people live in a place “...designed to tear them down physically and mentally,” for what purpose?
16
Manafort may want to go to ADX so what happened to Whitey won't happen to him.
12
oclos, you nailed it
Thank you
Mr. Guzman directly or indirectly killed thousands of people.
What he and taxpayers deserved is his execution. Why should taxpayers be paying up to $100,000 a year to keep such a criminal alive? He thought nothing of raping children, ordering the murder of dozens of people and addicting thousands who were put through hell and ended in death. If our justice system had any logic and a few less greedy lawyers, not to mention jurors with a backbone, Guzman would already be dead. What a stupid system we have!
As to his being treated as if he were at the Hilton, what a bad joke! I'd say put him in a cell with a dozen large rattlers.
22
Even if you dismiss the question of compassion for all, how do you agree that the State may put a citizen to death? It is a dangerous power to grant to the Government, one that has condemned countless fornerly free citizens in countries across the globe and time. We should not allow the government to commit acts illegal for individuals.
9
Three hots and a cot, no noise or brutal gen pop inmates; maybe they can buy a book or two. What do you think serial killers deserve?
13
Inmate Rudolph might feel that this prison's purpose is to tear him down, but you wouldn't expect someone who bombs innocent people to consider anyone but himself. In fact, the Supermax exists solely to protect us from the likes of Inmates Rudolph, Tsarnaev, or Kaczynski. Security and protection are this prison's only purpose. Nothing else matters. Not rehabilitation or deterrence; not even punishment. And don't forget that the extreme security of the Supermax protects these violent criminals from one another.
I'm normally a bleeding heart liberal; I cherish human rights and loathe our lying, treasonous President. But I'm glad to know that society is well-protected from those proven to be the worst of the worst.
479
I will always speak out against capital punishment. But I don't disagree with your position.
34
@Bob
You sound
like a liberal with sanity,which I try to be.
Thank You,
Jerry Fitz
28
Any prison deprives prisoners of a multitude of freedoms and pleasures, and greatly limits their ability to hurt others, and I have no objection to that. El Chapo was able to do his crimes because he couldn't feel for other human beings, indeed he delighted in causing pain and suffering. That's bad enough, but then the desire to punish him leads society and its enforcers to take satisfaction from making others suffer. He is cruel, but I see no reason why the goal of punishing him should be allowed to make others cruel. Study the annals of history from the beginning of civilization onward — study even the punishments meted out in 19th century England — and one encounters a long history of societies committing horrifying atrocities on the excuse of enforcing virtuousness. We no longer impale criminals, burn them alive, or draw and quarter them; but the desire to cause them maximum mental and physical deprivation such as to turn them into zombies or drive them insane is simply an extension of the same thing. Society should be the ideal we want criminals to be, not join them in creating hell for others.
153
@Anne Sherrod Your compassion is noteworthy and your points quite salient, however from a karmic perspective, he (and the other prisoners) created their own destiny by being devoid of compassion themselves.
While karmic destiny is commonly misunderstood as "retribution" it is not...it is simply the natural unfolding of "action entails consequence". Their suffering in ultimate terms is the result of their very misguided actions.
50
@dano50
Sorry, but your argument that "karma" justifies inflicting deliberate cruelties is no better than using any other religion, sect, cult or theocracy to determine how an enlightened and humanistic society is supposed to act.
31
And we are sympathetic to these poor prisoners because?
7
These prisoners should be given the option of the death penalty. Spending the rest of one's life in this kind of facility seems worse than death. It's sadistic that we force feed prisoners and stop them from committing suicide.
10
@Aoy
The ACLU would oppose it, not merely on its standard kneejerk grounds, but more specifically that the prisoner has, in substance, no choice at all.
@Aoy
Why should he be given the right to decide not to fullfill his full sentience which is incarceration until he dies of natural causes. For the Murders and rapes he commited hopefully he’ll spend a solid 30+ years there
1
I strive to be merciful but struggle in cases like these. I think el Chapo gets a pretty good deal here. Let's consider the fate of his thousands of victims who were killed, sometimes after hours of torture and mutilation. Let's think about the tens of thousands of people who died addicted to the drugs shipped here by el Chapo Inc. How many of these people would have opted for Super MAX rather than being tortuously disemboweled as if they were in some movie about the medieval period. El Chapo and his ADX pals may be victims of a broken penal system but they sealed their own fate. Kind of glad to hear Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is in there.
11
He belongs in prison for life-removed from the society he tried to destroy. He is a danger to humans and unredeemable.
Evil needs to be called out and removed-those who think he deserves better should talk to his victims’ families and then, from their privileged neighborhoods and homes, thank God they never had to face this level of evil.
13
Prisons like these are a form of sanitized torture, just like execution by lethal drugs. We disguise execution as a medical procedure. And we disguise torture as a monastic existence. We only fool and degrade ourselves by engaging in such illusions.
8
I would periodically provide all of those incarcerated access to a capsule of potassium cyanide if they feel they've had enough.
9
Still to good for him.
6
It’s nice to know that now he is locked away Mexico and the United States will be free of drugs and drug crime for years to come... NOT! There will always be a next in line as long as the demand/market is there.
7
That's the truth! Supply and demand, there will always be in demand for drugs whether it's legal marijuana or illegal narcotics there will always be addicts, alcoholics ect... There's another El Chapo sitting somewhere right now in the world making just as much money as El Chapo was but hasn't been caught yet. The real criminals are located deep in the United States government. I'm sure some people reading this have seen the movie "American Made" with Tom Cruise and is based on a true story. The United States government has done enough damage to this country already and when you see a movie based on a true story where the government has knowledge of illegal drugs, gun smuggling, bringing people illegally from South America to the United States and training them to fight or whatever the case may be. The United States government I guarantee has done many illegal things we as citizens will never know about but yet they will use someone like El Chapo as a scapegoat and make them look great while they probably had something to do with his operation or knew exactly what was going on but chose to look the other way until one day they say it's time for him to go down and that's the end of El Chapo. Now that he's locked up, someone else will gain power and control of the importing exporting of narcotics and we'll go for years and years until the government decides to shut it down. It's a never-ending circle of supplying the United States with drugs ect.... until the end of time!
3
Isolated and alone all day and night to stare at only a slit of window reminds me of what Dave must have felt after Hal took control of the space ship out in deep space and all he had until the day he died to stare at was its never changing red lit lens. This image should bring comfort to the loved ones of all those El Chapo brutally killed.
3
This is disgusting. The death penalty is more humane.
3
Not cruel and unusual? Why not give option of suicide? Save taxpayer money and get convicts an out. Perhaps the best of grim choices.
8
If ADX is an inhuman facility, then people who are destined there should be spared the inhumanity and executed.
Works for me.
3
My guess is that if the late Whitey Bulger were to be given a second chance - along with a choice between Supermax in Florence, or Hazelton in West Virginia - he'd choose Colorado. Just sayin'. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/31/us/who-killed-whitey-bulger.html
3
Are inmates periodically inspected for insanity?
Are they allowed to volunteer for euthanasia and organ donation?
5
And who designs these prisons?
Oh right, other so-called human beings.
WE should be ashamed.
7
Is there any doubt that if Guzman as housed anywhere else he'd be running the Sinaloa Cartel out of his cell? How many of the members are also in prison and ready to protect, impress and do deeds for him at the blink of an eye? Total isolation is the only way to keep him from communicating who to kill next.
14
Sounds like torture.
4
I would think that most of the people incarcerated there die prematurely. The prison isn't really designed for a long term healthy residence.
3
It is impossible to know who will present a security threat, and the greatest threat to inmates comes from other inmates. Solitary confinement is the safest solution for all, and is better than the death penalty many of these prisoners deserve. If they don't like it, too bad--they should not expect that society believes them worthy of salvation. They are not. Perhaps they may request this of their maker...
3
My guess is he and his “staff” are working to find the one or two corrections officers who are not as honorable as the others. They will then throw a few millions their way with the gentle reminder that they know where their families live.
Remember this: this is not a nice guy.
14
It should be a warning to others who think they are above the wall. Unfortunately, such people never believe that they will be in such a place.
2
Sounds like this is 'cruel and unusual punishment' Perhaps death sentences would be less cruel.
2
ADX sounds like a worse justice than the death penalty. I would prefer a quick death if I knew the rest of my life would be a slow wasting of my mind and spirit. Even tortured to death ends, right? Is the purpose to rehabilitate? No, obviously not. Deterrence by example of what could happen? No, no one's thinking "oo, I could end up at ADX." The purpose is slow torture for the rest of a life, worse than a quick death.
We are truly brilliant.
2
While it is satisfying to lock up Mr. Guzman, he has long been replaced in the narco trade.
That can't be stamped out because Mexico is corrupt
"Former Mexican President Peña Nieto Took $100 Million Bribe, Witness at El Chapo Trial Says"
It reminds me, how the the US delivered tens of millions of dollars in sacks of cash to Karzai, President of Afghanistan..
2
This kind of prison is basically like being berried alive. I wonder if it be more humane to offer them an end of life? I know I would not want to spend the rest of my life staring at a concrete wall.
3
“The purpose,” he maintained, “is to gradually tear a person down mentally and physically, through environmental and physical deprivation.” So how does this make us better than the people that we are punishing? I realize they are terrible people but are we any better? This article makes me wonder.
4
Such inhumanity is deeply wrong. These people are locked away because they can't be trusted to not reoffend. What is gained by this slow torture?
What is lost is our own humanity as a society.
8
For those concerned that spartan conditions of the supermax are akin to torture, let’s not forget the case of the Norwegian mass murderer, Anders Breivik, whose killing spree at a summer camp took 77 lives, mostly of teenagers. He sued Norway for human rights abuse and torture at the European court for his incarceration in a three-room suite with dvd player, flatscreen, video games, and exercise equipment, and cited a multitude of other cruelties, including microwaved food and deprivation of hand creme. His sentence of 21 years, Norway’s longest allowed, comes to a little more than three months per life. Perhaps America could become the envy of the socially progressive world if we offered El Chapo same torturous amenities, but added an iPhone so he could be in touch with his sons who continue to run the cartel. But then as a criminal of such stature, he might complain of not getting the presidential suite.
11
“Everything the inmate needs comes and goes through the door slot,” Mr. Rudolph wrote, adding that “the basic setup is for long-term solitary confinement.”
“The purpose,” he maintained, “is to gradually tear a person down mentally and physically, through environmental and physical deprivation.”
No sympathy from me.
7
He buried a man alive. This seems properly analogous.
22
The final line of the article is this quote:
“The purpose .......is to gradually tear a person down mentally and physically, through environmental and physical deprivation.”
A number of commenters were outraged by that mission statement.
They shouldn't have been outraged. The statement came from Eric Rudolph , who "carried out a spate of bombings in the '90's."
8
In every tv series detailing drug kingpins and in every movie, I come away with this: sure, there is money in quantities unimaginable. But, everyone lives in fear and worry. Who wants my position? Who is undercutting my authority? Who is siphoning my money? Am I safe, now, and when will the FBI or even local police find me out? So. What is the life of these people? Can't really walk the street without protection. Can't go to any public place. Can't really travel to another country without concern of extradition. So. What is this life about? Big screen tv showing movies and porn. Food being served up and eaten with one's gang. Conversation limited to one's gang members. Sex is available because it can be bought or forced. All that work and planning and money to live in an enclave. Kind of freaked up, no?
4
@laurel mancini:
Maximum's Rule says:
"Crime makes you stupid,
The more crime you commit,
The stupider one becomes."
1
The prisoners highlighted in this story are all notorious sociopaths.
For normal people, this type of incarceration would certainly be a grueling challenge.
For the criminals that are living there, I doubt that they have much feeling at all about being there for the rest of their lives.
Life, theirs or anyone else's, has never really meant much.
I will try to not give this matter any more thought than it deserves.
198
Inhumane....a word which derives from "human." Many of the people held in these prisons have committed horrible, cruel crimes. And they should be separated from society for the safety of society. No doubt.
But what kind of society decides that life imprisonment or a short stay culminating in execution warrants cruel treatment? Isn't being deprived of your independence for life enough? Why solitary? Why never a view of a tree or grass?
This is the very definition of inhumanity...this need to "punish" in ways that cause suffering. Most of these people are sick human beings and are a danger to other people. And this is not something they have chosen. So, yes, let's make sure they can't do it again. Ever.
But let's not place ourselves in the position of torturer. We have that choice. And, in a sick twist, we choose to exercise it over those who are likely incapable of empathy and were born that way.
135
@Sarah Not something they have chosen? Everyone of them chose to do what they did. These people did not act in a rage, a spur of the moment. What they did was thought out, with each thought chosen to harm and kill.
44
@Cat
That brings us to the question of choice in human life. A huge percentage of these prisoners apparently chose, as children, to experience horrible levels of neglect and abuse at the hands of adults. Why is it that kids from stable productive families are so under represented in prison populations?
22
@Sarah
Solitary confinement is daunting and dehumanizing.
It also provides safety for staff and prisoners. The state has a moral and legal obligation to keep prisoners safe. Letting such violent people, most with absolutely nothing to lose, have access to each other is a recipe for disaster.
They have forfeited their rights to live out in a general population.
38
ADX and 10 South sound like harsh places, but if you are the unabomber, an accomplice to blowing up a federal building, maiming innocent runners at a marathon, among other atrocities, then what should you get? I am surprised by the generous commissary money. Why even that? Are we suppose to show humanity to those who have destroyed humanity?
Some people comment that it sounds better than your regular prison of slamming steel doors, gang affiliations and more. It probably is if you are able to remain sane in 23 hours a day of solitude.
I don't have much (or any sympathy) for El Chapo or any of these felons. As a society we are burdened with having to house these people, feed them and let them shower. It is a burden. I am not a big fan of the death penalty, so that is not my answer. Although for some, like Timothy McVeigh, it was a good day.
I think social deprivation must be the ultimate punishment. They receive everything in their cells - even their food. Seeing the blue sky and breathing fresh air must be nice, a slight reprieve to the solitude.
Who really cares where El Chapo ends up as long as it's not a Ritz Carlton facility.
65
@LM
As to your question about showing humanity to those who have destroyed humanity (whatever that means). YES.
9
And, of course, the drug trade, made insanely lucrative by our totally counter-productive laws, will continue unabated, and billions of American dollars will continue to flow to assure our neighbors to the south will be corrupted to the highest levels. Want to prevent the next brutal drug kingpin? Legalize, regulate, and channel the money to legitimate, taxable businesses. The Feds are probably patting themselves on the back for basically accomplishing nothing.
8
@james doohan
You might as well legalize all drugs, prostitution, and even euthanasia.
Will that take care of your kids and friends not encountering and getting addict to drugs throughout their lives? North American society has an insatiable appetite for any kind of hallucinogens, so where's the end?
Education beginning at grade level to college and universities. Like they did with cigarettes smoking, teach, show, insist, brainwash if needed, the general population into making drug addiction a moral issue, not accepted anymore by parents, siblings, neighbors, the community, and finally society.
Take away demand, supply will fade into obscurity.
1
Great points James. When you consider how El Chapo got here it’s no surprise America is hated around the world. Maybe our global strategy should be to mind our business. Haven’t tried that lately
2
Lock him up, but provide incentive for him to cooperate with the Feds and their ongoing investigation into his contacts/business associates; 23 hrs/day in relative darkness may not accomplish that.
An aside: our criminal detention system, and other "institutions" define us as a nation/society, and the leaders that promote it should be questioned.
4
@JC, Your point is well taken for inmates in normal prisons and for lesser offenses. The Supermax houses prisoners who will never be rehabilitated, never released for the unforgivable crimes they have committed.
3
So essentially my tax dollars will go toward keeping Guzman in a concrete cell while eating the occasional Cheeto, for the next several decades. Perhaps the forfeiture dollars should go to the cost of incarceration. But realistically, he an intelligent (albeit loathe some individual.) Is there not some way to facilitate an iota of productivity from prisoners to contribute to society. Can they not do some sort of gainful work (engaging technology to retain isolation/security) for the reward of a few minutes outside of their cell. I highly doubt that the future mass murderers and conspirators of the world will be deterred by the conditions at ADX, let's at least derive some benefit from their incarceration.
1
I understand that solitary is a very unhealthy thing for the human mind (a tour of Alcatraz will hammer that home) and I agree with many of the comments here about it being unnecessarily cruel. I also read the linked article on 10 South. And I'm not the "what considerations did they give their victims" type.
But I have a hard time shedding a tear for Guzmán after all the suffering he's inflicted.
9
@J Darby It's not really about shedding tears for Guzman. It's about deliberate cruelty that puts us on a moral plane with the worst human rights violators in the world. We really need to shut up about being morally superior to ... anyone.
3
This why we are a model for the world.
We insist.
We are, by definition, always right.
Follow oh world and be blessed by our vision for humanity.
A society like ours can never have mass killers. We are far too compassionate and humane to nurture such traits.
3
@AJ
The insatiable appetite for narcotics of the people of this country helped make him who he is, let's not forget that dimension of American Exceptionalism.
1
Agreed - lifetime solitary confinement is inhumane. But what would be an appropriate sentence for a blood-thirsty killer whose business was supplying the poison that destroys entire communities? I don’t know. My sympathy for this single sociopath is tempered by what he did to thousands of others.
3
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
25
@Cazanoma Well, life imprisonment at the Supermax is a far better option than capital punishment, which is subject to errors at trial, and the houses of horror called "prisons" back when the Constitution was written.
1
The prisoner list at ADX Florence includes a lot of prisoners who are not escape risks, and generally violates the principal of the lowest necessary level of security. Some prisoners there, such as those who have killed guards, or had multiple escape attempts belong there for security reasons. Many, however are simply there because of the high profile nature of their crime.
It is designed as a torture facility, nothing more, nothing less. Prisoners who don't pose an immediate security threat should not be kept in permanent isolation, period.
47
I'm not making a pro or con argument, or invoking any ethical principles. Just shedding some light.
Psychologists almost unanimously agree that solitary confinement is a form of psychological torture, and that it breaks people in a very short period.
Anyone saying that the ADX looks nice or like a hotel might be shocked to discover what happens to their minds after just 5 days in this kind of setting.
One consequence of this kind of imprisonment that should be fodder for discussion: a person incarcerated in a supermax, after a few years, is so psychologically broken that they barely resemble their former selves. After many years, this raises the peculiar question of who, exactly, is being incarcerated.
50
Paul, I believe that if our criminal justice system fails to provide retribution, yes revenge, for the families of the victims of these very bad people then these families would fail to cooperate with law enforcement and instead engage in the “vendetta” model. We ‘d be back to the Hatfields and McCoys.
Yes, yes education, rehabilitation, and forgiveness have their place, but where we are dealing with unrepentant, evil, perpetrators then the social contract requires we act firmly and finally in a limited number of cases in order to preserve the social order. IMHO.
3
@Ben the hatfield & mccoy scenario is not related to a lack of "revenge" on the part of the of the criminal justice system. It just reflects a society in which vendattas go unpunished. Lock up both the hatfields and the mccoys, and vendatta-style justice will stop fairly quickly.
1
I believe John Gotti was also a guest of this place.
For some prisoners, it might be better than being in a general population with a bunch of violent criminals.
I think if I had to do time, I would want to be at Buttner, where Bernie Madoff is in residence. Might pick up a few investment tips.
5
@RM
No. Gotti was at Marion. His number two, Gravano, ended up there, though, after creating a major ecstasy distribution network while in witness protection. The government, understandably, felt very jerked around.
1
Inhumane? Of course. Our great thinkers do not spend a lot of time dwelling on penal issues even though such would yield a better and much less inhumane system.
It must be realized, though, that there are some very broken, very dangerous people out there who cannot be rehabilitated. The CDX is a very hard place for very dangerous people. Some will stay forever, or until time for an end of life transfer to a BOP hospital facility.
None of those at CDX are convicted of "non-violent drug felony crimes" as are very few in the overall BOP. Any who are probably should not have been federally prosecuted. Setting aside the unwisdom of the war on drugs, none but a stupid, unimaginative or self righteous federal prosecutor or agent (and one or two such can be found in every USAO or DEA/ATF/FBI office) will ever charge a mere user. They are properly seen as victims, and rather easily converted into witnesses.
Most experienced, honest federal judges, agents and prosecutors will also confirm that the "non-violent" drug trafficker is a myth. The prospect of decisive violence, especially with firearms, is intrinsic to every level of drug trafficking, as acknowledged by every user, street seller, courier, stash house worker, lookout, corner boy, boss, and boss of bosses. Indeed, drug commerce relies on the prospect of immediate violence to maintain order and fealty, regardless of whether violence is itself an "element" of the drug crime of conviction.
16
You are perfectly safe at this facility, something you cannot claim at other prisons. Quiet is a fantastic luxury compared to the cacophony of standard jails where slamming steel and babbling incoherent hollering in jail jargon is the norm. I would guess the fresh air exchange actually works, offering relatively clear air rather than suffering the rank stench of body odor, cheap floor cleaner, and decades of overlooked grime of the average jail. If you are allowed almost $300 a month in commissary that is extraordinary. I would bet money they actually have books. You lived your raucous life, now you settle down in peace and quite to exercise, meditate, and study in peace and safety. A thinking man could do much worse.
108
Do the prisoners have access to books? TV? I imagine no internet.
1
@Michael it says closed circuit (read censored, tv) and yes to books. No internet is standard to all prisons but i imagine it's strictly enforced at this one.
@Michael Regular prisons have a TV room--where the inmate with the most muscles and tattoos will crush your skull if you switch off the Boxing Channel.
2
Oh, well, in perfect Scandinavia and Canada guys like him no doubt get a lavish private dorm room with satellite TV and lots of walks around the trees and flowers. And he'd be out in seven years.
4
@globalnomad And yet Canadians and Scandinavians are far safer than Americans. In my opinion, the purpose of the criminal justice system is to reduce crime and increase public safety, not come up with new and creative ways to punish people, even if it feels good and just in the short term to do so. A brutal justice system just creates more victims in the long run.
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@Kenneth
A brutal justice system. I often wonder if this concept of justice and its rendition is somehow a leftover from the colonists who settled this continent, along with the need for money and land in excess? England in the 1700s and 1800s was not a picture of egalite or fraternite.
1
@Kenneth But I'd suggest you read the books on serial killers by the original profilers, John Douglas, Robert Ressler as well as their protege Roy Hazelwood. Furthermore the prison described does not sound brutal. Normal prisons are hellish with noise and dangerous inmates.
2
In referring to '10 South', the article neglects mentioning that this NYC Dept of Correction facility once was called the Bernard B. Kerik Complex, dedicated by Mayor Rudolph Giuliani on December 12, 2001 - 3 months & one day after 9/11, ironically before he was found guilty of corruption & became a felon.
6
Boo hoo. Do the crime, do the time. Is there enough room for the Trump family, Mitch McConnell, Ryan, Nunes and the rest of the Republican Crime Cartel?
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@Ignatz Farquad I would support a tax increase to ensure there is room for all.
19
@Ignatz Farquad And keep your eye on the Sparrow!
3
They get money to shop????!
Give me a break.
7
@Andrew No, they are "allowed to spend" money. They have to get it from outside visitors. apparently there's no work available in this prison.
2
Shorty will do fine. Sounds a lot like one of those Times Square of hotels. Piece of cake.
5
No mercy here, ol' Chap!
6
I hope his sentence includes a prohibition on telling his story for publication of any kind. His love of publicity puts him in the same category as Islamic suicide bombers: loss of life comes with a potential reward.
6
To be fair, I think they should give these prisoners the option of a firing squad.
30
To rationalize that this type of punishment is well deserved and to delight in it speaks volumes about the dark side of humanity.
26
@Linda Compared to the manifold evils perpetrated by an "El Chapo" a mere prison cell doesn't seem all that dark.
ICE is now putting asylum seekers in a prison in Mississippi while they await their hearings. Maybe they will use the ADX prison next to house mothers and children while they wait.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/ice-is-sending-hundreds-of-asylum-seekers-to-a-private-prison-in-mississippi/
4
Dole out Karma , receive Karma .
4
Oh boy, the bleeding hearts are strong in this thread. I bet to a single mother of five kids, a clean room all to themselves with no cooking or cleaning required would sound pretty damn good.
4
@DanP: Would you be willing to try it?
1
One wonders where our liberal attorneys are in the face of what is clearly a depraved and disgusting penal system. Full time solitary for life?
What ever happened to cruel and unusual punishment?
What of class action suits on behalf of those tortured by these conditions?
2
Perhaps a choice destination for a treasonous President and his accomplice Majority Leader?
43
@Drew: No, that's not harsh enough. Should be general population incarceration.
3
El Chapo should be isolated and endlessly bombarded with video of the suffering, nameless millions who crossed paths with his unfettered greed.
11
They aren't in ADX for singing too loudly in church. Limousine liberalism is alive and well and on full display on the board today. Evidently we, the society that has been victimized by these criminals and are forced to pay for their medical care,food and housing, are supposed to feel guilty about the lack of stimulation for inmates at the world most secure prison housing the most despicable of humanity's trash.
12
@Ricky
There is a distinction to be made between punishment and torture. Even "limousine liberals" are in favor of the former, but the latter is prohibited by the Constitution, as well as by common decency. Would you be in favor of bringing back the rack and burning at the stake?
@Ricky: How do you treat a human being? How about a bad human being? How does your treatment of this bad human being make you any different from that human being? Is human trash defined by the humans with the most power? Does the victor always write the history?
What is the difference between slowing choking the life out of a person, taking decades to do it, and ending a life in an instant? Which is the greater punishment? Which is the most cruel? Do people change, either individually or collectively? Is there rehabilitation for heinous crimes? Can you ever repay taking a life?
I do not have the answers to these questions but they deserve to be asked. They deserve to be asked everyday we have someone in prison.
4
Regardless of how awful a person is, the state -- we -- should not become awful in response. It is our duty to keep our humanity and not seek to degrade the humanity of others.
19
Bravo!
1
I do not believe that punishment by incarceration was meant to be pleasant, and having passed by the facility in Florence many times it is stark and has no beauty save for the mountains not too far away.
If he does find his new abode in Florence, it will be well deserved-and society will be well served.
3
Super Prisons, gun violence, voter disenfranchisement, billionaire politics, environmental degradation, walls, hard-right news corporations and presidential overreach.
America has already turned into the nightmare we all fear.
7
you forgot ever more present constant surveillance: Brave New World has creeped in on our watch and is here to stay.
Where exactly would you have America put people who are proven sociopaths? Are you so naive to imagine that a man like El Chapo could be rehabilitated? This is a guy who has mercilessly assassinated anyone and everyone who he saw as a threat to his business and power, including innocent children, brave reporters and public officeholders. And that doesn't even count all the people who have died from his "products".
4
Let's be clear, the subjects of this imprisonment scheme are not the felons there. The target of the punishment is you and me, the readers of this article. The prison is a theater, the performers are the guards and prisoners, and you reading this, are the subject.
As you imagine life there, the prison is doing its work on making you a "good American." Have fun imagining your life there...
8
@smokepainter I suggest some research as to the conditions those in the ADX are subjected to and it ain't theater.
That's incredibly oppressive and hard to imagine tolerating for more than a few hours, much less the rest of your life. Although I am morally against it, sometimes I think the death penalty is actually the more humanitarian option for some of these cases.
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@Brannon Perkison
cogent and my pick if not a Times pick. When you have violently, willfully taken the life of another person, been found guilty of felony murder in a US court and sentenced to life without parole, society must allow you the choice of immediate death by lethal means. I think it's very humane and it saves a lot of money. But, I suppose some would say, No, I want the con to spend the rest of his days at some place like ADX.
2
I'll bet that every deprivation at ADX was borne out of necessity, not inherent cruelty. Convicts would exploit any chink in the armor, so they gradually have made the armor impermeable. But I hope not every prison is headed in this direction...
20
To me ADX sounds like hell. I agree this is a prison designed to house the worst of the worst. But I do think a prison like this is necessary.
19
Though this may be the only solution to keep violent predators safely separated from the rest of us, I still have compassion for the hell the endure every second for the rest of their lives.
I would surely choose death over a lifetime spent alone in a concrete tomb.
15
@Steve M I have more compassion for the victims and their families.
4
“The purpose,” he maintained, “is to gradually tear a person down mentally and physically, through environmental and physical deprivation.”
I don't agree with making living vegetables out of any human beings (or animals, for that matter) and I'm appalled at the conditions described at both of these prisons. The inhumanity of the prisoner is no excuse for the inhumanity of the prison-keepers. The prisoner is a monster, but our system of punishing them is monstrous. All keepers of human beings (or animals) — whether prisoners of the law or prisoners of war, or immigrants — have a moral duty to maintain humane conditions. Anything else dehumanizes and degrades, not only the prisoners, but the prison keepers as well. The conditions described amount to torture. and I am sorry to hear that these prisons recruit their employees to implement it. I probably should be against the death penalty, but I find it more humane for people like Guzman than torturing them mentally and physically until the end of their lives. I stand appalled at the capacity of human beings to want to create prolonged suffering amongst thousands of people. I would not preside over that and I think as a society we hurt ourselves by presiding over that. I am referring to practices such as permanent solitary confinement, lights on at night, etc, etc. When we are forced to confront, in our world, institutions where hundreds or thousands of prisoners are confined in a living hell, tell me who is the Big Criminal?
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@Anne Sherrod
How accurate your reply is. Bravo.
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@Anne Sherrod
This is difficult. Feeling any kind of sorrow for El Chapo is a waste of time. Instead, go out and work with his victims that are flooding our society. See how humane their lives are. Talk to their families, volunteer in the wards where opioid addicted babies are born.
There is no kind solution to the kind of evil and greed that these inmates have accosted society with. It is an act of courage to penalize evil in this way.
12
@Anne Sherrod Incarceration serves one of several purposes, or a mix of them. One is rehabilitation (clearly not realistic here), one is maintenance of society's standards (served well by taking someone so heinously violating them and putting him in unimaginably bad conditions), one is deterrence (as you can see, Mexico's prison system does this poorly), one is incapacitation (removal from ability to commit further crimes - accomplished well here), and another is retribution (having the criminal be appropriately punished for the magnitude of his crimes).
People do not seem to disagree that this system fulfills all criteria except for the last one. So tell me, what is an appropriate form of retribution for one of the world's most notorious criminals? What should his conditions be like? It is very easy to say "not like this" but please describe how you picture an acceptable prison for criminals of this caliber.
5
“Houdini”? Really? Breaking out of a Mexican Federal Prison where everyone is corrupt is no comparison to even the most basic US prison. Let’s be clear, Chapo escaped because his captors, ALL his captors, were on the take. Same goes for Pablo Escobar and his famed “escape” from Columbia prison. BTW, none of this puts a dent in the drug trade.
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@Pedrito
quite right and even though he is not going to have much fun for the rest of his life, I bet El Chapo has previously thought this through and his associates and relatives are certainly on the bright side for the time being.
1
I’m sorry but the criminals in this prison are the worst of the worst of the worst! They are probably not able to be rehabilitated and they should never see the light of day!
8
For all of you who are in glee at El Chapo's incarceration, remember he got rich because your friends, neighbors, co-workers, relatives, and perhaps even you have been using "illegal" drugs. The wages of your sins is what El Chapo is paying for. Have some sympathy for the devil.
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@Srini
I have no sympathies at all and I'm not guilty of anything of what is suggested. Neither is anyone in my family and not my friends. Let me feel grateful that there is courage enough to put these kinds of people behind bars. It's not an act of barbarism as some suggest, on the contrary.
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@Petras
If there was no demand, there would be no supply.
9
@Srini. You have got to be kidding.
9
If it is about choice(s), then why not revive Andersonville as a sort of open air SuperMax.
Sounds like a pretty sadistic place and judging by the evidence presented an equally sadistic guy. If he still controls his money, an attempt to break him out should occupy someone's daily briefing.
2
To those who cry about the inhumanity of life at SuperMax, would you like to offer your spare bedroom as an alternative? You can write Judge Cogan with your offer of hospitality.
7
None of the inmates featured in this story, which includes spies, mass murderers and terrorists, is worthy of rehabilitation and deserve exactly the conditions they're in. Robert Hansen's actions led to the executions of dozens of Russian assets, Nichols provided assistance in creating a bomb that killed hundreds of Americans and Rudolph targeted abortion clinics and gay bars in his bombing campaign.
23
@Shane: If someone tortures, should we also torture? I'd say a resounding "no".
1
@Steve M They're alive aren't they? That's more than you can say for those they murdered or who were murdered as a result of their actions. Spies like Hanssen put the entire nation at risk. Zero sympathy.
1
1) It is hard to feel any sympathy towards somebody who has done the things that El Chapo has done.
2) If I was going to be stuck in a Federal prison, I'd prefer ADX to any other. The real terror in the other prisons is what the other inmates will do to you. I suspect Whitey Bulger, in his final moments, wished he'd been sent to ADX.
29
@Engineer I'd rather be beat to death like whitey Bulger in general population then slowly go crazy and get mentally tortured in ADX only reason why whitey Bulger got attacked like that cuz he was an old ass man that couldn't defend himself no more and got put in general population after a prison transfer to a new prison where another mobster killed him for simply being a snitch
1
Sounds quite a horrific place. Just as an aside though, I wonder how much it costs the State to house each inmate every year. It must be exorbitant.
4
I think it is the perfect place for the likes of who is sent there including El Chapo. I hope he has a great life all alone and not allowed any visitors. I do like the idea and much better than a death penalty.
7
ADX is a good argument against capital punishment. I'm starting to consider 'life' at ADX a more suitable sanction than execution were someone to take the life of a family member.
I'm not there yet. It could depend on the spiritual outlook of the criminal: does he or she believe in Judgment and if so, is the "judge" a New Testament or Old Testament figure?
An ADX-like facility should never house anyone who has the possibility of release at any time before death. We should never let an ADX inmate loose on society. Too scary to contemplate.
5
"Not designed for humanity."
In other words, this prison is perfect for the likes of El Chapo, whose own humanity left him decades ago. People like this are too dangerous to be exposed to others, either physically or mentally. His astonishing wealth and status make him an even greater threat.
He chose his fate. The only shame is that it took so long for him to meet it.
47
Sounds like a grim place. The average human being might even feel a touch of sympathy for those who must live out the rest of their lives there. But then, if you think about the crimes they committed to put them there, that feeling goes away pretty quickly.
16
Goes back to the old saying; If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
4
John Stuart Mill thought the death penalty was more humane than life imprisonment. He may have been right.
21
Is it inhumane? Yes. Are El Chapo and the rest of the vilest creatures there even still human, though? Yes, they have human physical anatomy but their acts robbed them of any humanity that may or may not have been there in the first place. And what of all the victims? Thousands dead and tens of thousands more lives ruined by these people.
I wish I didn't feel this way. And I'm open to alternative punishments, but how? How do you hold former humans who committed the worst atrocities accountable? Moreover, how do we protect the rest of society from them? The latter question feels far more important to me.
7
@TFD If your objective is "How do we protect the rest of society", then any old secure prison will do.
1
These supermax prisons are a reflection of how far we have fallen as a society from any sense of what "cruel and unusual" punishment actually means as it's prohibited by the Eighth Amendment of the our Constitution. This isn't punishment it's torture. We should be better than this.
32
@Walt. SO you think El Chapo should be doing community service to ease your conscience?
4
@Walt "Fallen"? From where? Do you think prisons in the US were more humane at some point in the past? The purpose of this prison is to keep violent offenders off the streets. If he is fed, clothed, and sheltered, he is way better off than he would be at a less confining prison.
'
'
Jackson -there’s a vast in between here ...
1
Reading the comments, it seems like some people are falling for a false dichotomy. Are the conditions at this prison inhumane? Absolutely. But out of all the injustices in the world, do I care that this man is facing them? Not at all. There are countless other problems afflicting infinitely better people than Guzman.
We should not treat people this way because it is cruel and inhumane, and that has nothing to do with feeling sorry or taking it easy on terrible people. It is about maintaining our own standards and dignity.
229
This gives me no pleasure. Solitary confinement is torture. I think we should have all the prisoners at this facility sleep in a common area, and work out their issues all on their own ..... together. They would of course, have to clean up after themselves too.
4
I am not phased in the least by this description of deprivation. I lived in a 6th floor studio apartment overlooking 14th street for 2 years. Bring it on.
13
I agree it is torture. After a few years in there, the inmate will not ever be same again. But until we can perfect a method of erasing the memory and personality of a human (Death of Personality), and reprogram them, Institutions like this will be needed.
13
To borrow a line from the past:
"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."
Or, actions and decisions have consequences.
12
No matter how formidable the facility, a person with hundreds of millions, or billions of dollars, under the auspices of ordinary wage earners, can possibly buy a look the other way. Whether via tunnel, or helicopters plus a hired militia, or some other scheme, I would never count this guy out. This is no loner uni-bomber; he has resources and connections we can't imagine.
31
@Ben K Take some cash he has been relieved from, buy the prison 4 automatic anti-aircraft weapons, seen of naval ships...........and let them practice when El Chappers is in the yard.
A wonderful line - but I would say the degree of civilization is revealed by entering its public schools - let’s make those shine - then worry about the prisons.
79
@SAL
This!
Laws should be created for such prisoners to have option of selecting death/euthanasia after certain amount of time. For sure I want to have such an option, if God forbids I end up in jail, even for a month, I prefer death than solitary.
As humans we have to draw a line where punishment of prisoners goes beyond punishment, and it becomes more punishing for those outside also.
31
@Alex
People like Guzman should not be allowed to decide their own fates and capital punishment or suicide lets him off way too easy; as was the case for McVeigh. A mass murderer, he is not deserving of any chance for rehabilitation. I hope he gets excellent medical care there and lives a very long time.
5
@Alex well as bad a jail/prison/solitary sounds I would prefer doing the 30 days over death.
3
@Alex
Sounds like an argument for the death penalty for those who have tortured and murdered another human being.
1
“The purpose...is to gradually tear a person down mentally and physically, through environmental and physical deprivation.”
This is torture. There may be more extreme forms of torture, but that doesn’t really change the nature of the act.
For as long as we continue to treat any human being as “less than,” and deprive those individuals of the most basic human rights that we claim to be sacred, then none of us is free of our obscene moral relativism.
161
@ubique
The primary feature of any imprisonment, not just solitary confinement, is environmental and physical deprivation. Without that deprivation, there is no punishment, which amounts to impunity.
38
@ubique "The purpose" of this facility was described by Eric Rudolph, who was convicted for a number of bombings, including the Atlanta’s Centennial Olympic Park bombing. I don't think that Rudolph understands or cares about the real purpose of this facility, which was to assure that those convicted of especially violent crimes will serve their sentences with little risk of escape, opportunity for them to harm others or be physically harmed themselves.
Inmates in this type of facility have already demonstrated themselves to be far “less than” peaceful, law abiding individuals and have lost most of their entitlement to basic human rights through due process. You can call it torture if you like but the intent of the facility is to protect society from them as well as to protect them and the prison staff from them and other inmates of their type.
98
A distinction should be made between run of the mill “imprisonment” and “solitary confinement”. Both deny impunity to the body/mind but one is actual torture to the mind trapped inside the cell.
6
How do you say, “Cry me a river” in Spanish?
60
@NYC Traveler
One common Spanish cliche is "llorar como una magdalena" or to cry like (Mary) magdelene. Maybe not totally equivalent but a good one nonetheless.
12
I wish El Chapo a long life!
207
there will always be a hell on earth. Having worked on ADX i can tell you it always felt creepy. It is exactly the place for El Chapo. i hear the food ain't bad
63
This strikes me as the kind of place El Chapo would design for his victums, imhumane and criminaialy insane. I’m sure many people will take satasfaction if he is sent there, in that way they share his ability to justify the indefensible. This is not a matter of rehibilation vs punishment, this is state sponsered and controled torture. It’s exactly the kind of place used by authoritarian regimes to send political chalangers. It’s not far fetched to imagine that happening someday in this devided country.
14
An idea for the editors: When Guzman is sentenced to life in ADX, how about a feature comparing our federal maximum facilities to those in other Western countries.
I'd be curious to know how they differ, and perforce how they reflect their respective societies.
159
There was an article in the NYT about a year ago (?) about prisons in Europe. The difference with American prison? In Europe they are still humane.
12
@Taz Well, we already certainly know that Mexico's "maximum facilities" aren't very good at keeping criminals like El Chapo successfully in jail.
8
@Taz
Why just Western countries?
6
Glad to hear about the sparse conditions...almost seems too good for him.
I have to laugh when I read about rehabilitation for this guy....come on.
They are bandits, and they acknowledge and embrace the lifestyle.
Well, embrace the MAX.
32
Agreed. Rehabilitation is an oxymoron. These sociopaths are lifers without the possibility of parole. They’re not reentering society and hence don’t need to be rehabilitated. Never the less, they can listen to classes for self-improvement.
1
"The degree of civilisation in a society is revealed by entering its prisons." F.M. Dostoevsky
463
@ochlos,
You should ask Martha Stewart about the conditions she faced in prison. Different prisons for different prisoners.
13
@ochlos Yes and by the crimes that individuals will commit.
13
@ochlos In those days El Chapo would have been executed immediately. This is a great alternative to execution for someone who could buy his way out of any other Prison and who has hundreds of not thousands of lives on his hands.
35
I have no sympathy for El Chapo, even though its our own misguided War on Drugs that gave him the ability to become such a violent criminal. As depressing as the ADX must be Im reserving my sympathy for the thousands of Americans locked up for years in similarly punishing conditions for non violent crimes or even wrongly convicted.
Our system is broken but in this instance, it works.
77
Enough with the slogans - If you don’t want to put people in jail for “non-violent” crimes, what do you propose? Only the wealthy can pay fines. Also, are you talking about drug crimes, financial scams, robbery? Should Maddof be walking free?
5
@SAL
Admittedly I should have said "Victimless" crimes but for a good reason I believe we over prosecute non violent crimes in this country too.
Thank you for your question.
7
@SAL
Non-violent offenders should always work off their debts to society by performing work that benefits the community under minimal security conditions. Only to be sent into the slammer if they abuse them.
My exception is for drug dealers. On the surface they may be non-violent, but poisoning someone is as heinous as a brutal attack. That counts as violent in my book.
1
Consider the lives this man has destroyed, through violence and drugs. The true number will likely never be known.
Twice he was imprisoned in Mexico, and twice he escaped to continue running his murderous empire.
A lifetime of near-solitary confinement, too harsh? Actions have consequences, Mr. Guzman.
229
@David
Amazing, the love some Americans have for punishment (of other people).
And telling, that an American citizen, whose government's covert agencies have dealt in illegal drugs for years -- not to mention war crimes by elected officials, which have killed millions and destroyed millions more lives -- would find any satisfaction in torturing a Mexican national when his own criminals play golf and appear on Meet the Press.
Good thing we're selective about the crimes we punish. And who goes to jail and who doesn't. Otherwise, it could become uncomfortable.
15
@jrd
If I could have given you 84 "recommends" to offset those who, as you say, "love" to punish other people who are probably less despicable than those we celebrate as "patriots", I would have.
9
While what's described sounds terrifying and inhumane, I certainly don't have any better suggestions for criminals at this level of danger and depravity. Perhaps in a highly enlightened culture, there could/should be efforts at rehabilitation and healing of the obviously very sick and dangerous people that wind up in a place like this, but obviously, that's not where we are as a society. This article should be required reading as a cautionary reality check for all kids in school from the 6th grade up.
12
we have created a criminal justice system that is repressive,
unequal, racist, violent, profitable, and in the end inhumane.
52
@john kevin You are right. Let El Chapo go. He has done nothing wrong.
3
@john kevin - Just the kind of place el Chappo deserves !!
3
@john kevin Really? Eric Rudolph, the Unabomber, Terry Nichols, Ramzi Yousef and the other bombers, killers, terrorists and spies should consider themselves lucky to be in a place like ADX. Considering their monstrous crimes, they all deserve fates much worse than what they actually received.
6
I thought the Obama Administration had banned solitary confinement for all Federal prisons. It should be declared cruel and unusual punishment by the courts, not just Federal but states' courts as well.
19
@A Distant Star
I think the ban was just for minors i.e. those under the age of 18. The ADX prison discussed has always been solitary, even during Obama.
4
@A Distant Star
Just which part of mass murderer do you not understand? Those who were murdered in cold blood and thrown into mass graves are estimated in the thousands.
Do you also understand he spent $100,000,000 to buy off the President of Mexico so he could continue to murder and accumulate $14,000,000,000 in the process?
That he also was able to buy his way out of the Mexican prisons?
That his drug running army was greater and better equipped than armies of small nations including a fleet of submarines?
5
This is a greater punishment than execution. Too bad Timothy McViegh escaped the true punishment he deserved. Tsarnaev who killed and maimed so many people should spend the rest of his life in this prison and contemplate his crimes. This prison is a great argument against the death penalty.
149
@Christina
The Norwegian murderer of more than 70 people many of whom were idealistic teenagers has a very generous and lenient imprisonment and makes demands for more privileges. "In compensation for his solitary confinement, he has a three-cell complex where he plays video games, watches TV and exercises. Breivik also is served coffee and newspapers in the morning" from the Chicago Tribune
In my opinion the death penalty is wrong. But the pampering of this unrepentant person is insulting to the victims and their families.
43