We sold our soul when we, America, didn't reject el-Sisi's military coup d'etat as American law and American decency required. We allowed this. We caused this. When will we learn?
3
Do human beings inherently long for freedom? Or do they just want personal safety and prosperity?
Can safety and prosperity be provided without freedom? Does freedom necessarily bring safety and prosperity?
I thought that I knew the answers to these questions, but now I’m not so sure.
4
The interests of the United States in Egypt is not that the Egyptians be free to practice democracy, it is to allow more free media so they can influence the Egyptians to do what the Americans and Israelis want them to believe and act accordingly. Mr. El-Sisi’s tight control of the media is making that less desirable, hence his control of the media. Why don’t the Americans worry about democracy in the United States and leave other countries to deal with their own problems. Egypt probably needs more public education and food than democracy. Let them deal with their problems without American interference!
1
The issue of an open society with a reasonable degree of freedom of speech, assembly, respect for human rights and independent impartiality in the judicial system and an open education system seems to get lost in the confusion with a multi party state or a democracy. An open society can prosper and a more equitable society can be implemented without a multi party or democracy per se. The trouble is that imposing a dictatorship here also comes with all of the repression of a one party state which stifles innovation and human rights. A state need not be a democracy in order to maintain an open and tolerant society. Sadly Egypt and so many other countries can not separate themselves from dictatorships and repression of open societies where basic human rights are respected.
Another sad chapter in the history of a proud nation. Some comments that parrot the words of Sissi and his cronies that Egypt is not ready for democracy ignores a long history of parliamentary elections close to a hundred years starting in the nineteenth century and an open society that suffered for seventy years from military dictators. Sissi will go but Egypt will be there and once freed from dictatorship, will certainly remember this dark chapter and who stood up with the people versus those that supported the dictator.
5
I don't know much about Egypt. The closest I came was spending four years in Morocco earlier in my career. One key observation: never try to make easy comparison comments about different countries, even if both are generally in the same region, so I won't. May the Egyptians find their own way forward, on their own terms and on their own schedule.
1
Great point, but America’s signature trait is anti what you said. That’s why we have failed all Middle East battles.
1
I think the world needs to accept that democracy does not work in all cultures and contexts and many countries are better off with dictators who are able to contain the chaos that exists between their borders.
While I weep for may of the people who will undoubtedly suffer because of this, I am also thankful for when a dictator is able to support through perhaps despicable actions a safer world and more stable world.
2
It's quite evident that America's approving posture to both Egypt and Saudi Arabia has allowed them to act with impunity in oppressing their populations. While the US has cozied up to authoritarian regimes in the past if doing so furthered our aims, it has never been so blatantly clear that our country, under Trump, couldn't care less if democracy flourishes in the Middle East or not. Under Trump, the US doesn't care about human rights there either. Nor the rule of law. Both of these regimes literally get away with murder, and for Trump, thats just fine. Our foreign policy is a disgrace everywhere, but never more so than here.
5
A lot of commentators here have waxed eloquent about the need to protect democracy. Having grown up in Kuwait and being intimately familiar with the dynamics in that region, I don't understand why Americans can't grasp a simple concept - Democracy DOES NOT work everywhere!
The people of the Middle East and North Africa are not ready for democracy. Out of all the nations that got swept up in the Arab Spring movement (supported by Obama), not a single one is thriving. Most are stuck in some form of civil war or are divided nations. What did democracy accomplish in Egpyt when the Muslim Brotherhood were elected to run the country? The economy faltered, tourism dropped, militant attacks rose, and cronyism continued. At least under el-Sisi the economy is improving and people have some security. People care more about having money in their pockets than about liberties. What good does free speech do when I can't feed my family and myself?
Another example - Kuwait is a monarchy where the emir can dissolve parliament at a whim. Most people in the country are generally happy because the country is stable and they have financially secure lives.
Americans need to stop trying to impose their moral standards and expectations on the rest of the world. It's great that democracy works here, but let other nations figure out what works for them.
7
@PK your example of Kuwaitee contentedness was not what played out in all the countries who protested for a new government during the Arab Spring. The people there took to the streets. They said they wanted democracy. Yes perhaps it didn't thrive right away because they elected Islamists but with the Spring it's not some fiction that we think they want democracy.
I vacillate between believing that we should have let Morsi's rule play out until a second election when groups had time to get more organized, to run opposition and what not, or to believe that the military coup was in the best interest of maintaining civil rights more generally. I certainly don't believe anyone who feels strongly one way or another.
But one thing is for sure, the people voiced their desire to have democracy and therefore, in my opinion, they were ready for it and that should have been enough for us to support their efforts.
2
@Nadia Just because someone voices a desire for something doesn't mean they are ready for it. Iraqis voiced their desire for democracy, and there were several actors who actively encouraged George Bush to invade Iraq and topple Saddam Hussein. What happened in Iraq? Sectarian violence. Bloodshed. Old neighbors turned on each other because one was Sunni and another was Shiite. First Al-Qaeda and then Islamic State gained footholds in the country. The economy is a mess. Iraq is still not a stable country, and some people are now pining for the days when Saddam was in power because they felt secure. Without a strongman in place, centuries-old rivalries came to the forefront and left Iraq in shambles.
The issue is that most of these countries were carved out by colonial powers with little regard for tribal allegiances, religious divisions, or cultural conflicts. Iraq should really have been 3 countries. However, we have the nation states we have today, and democracy in those states cannot survive while these sectarian and cultural conflicts exist just under the surface. Hence the reason a strongman is needed.
The U.S. made a grave mistake supporting Arab Spring when they should have realized the repercussions based on what happened in Iraq. Democracy does not work everywhere.
1
I totally agree. Another great example was Iraq. Saddam had all the various factions under control and he was frankly set up by Americans and British to look as a terrorists. All he did was, like Bin Laden, question the real American interests once the Iran Iraq war was over.
1
I guess this is one way to guarantee a violent civil war in Egypt.
1
It will all end in tears, as always. Both for the Egyptians and American interests in the Middle East.
US foreign policy is short term and domestic at its source. Supporting, unquestioningly el-Sisi, in just another example. Ibid South America.
For defending continental America has always meant over other peoples' dead and maimed bodies. Just look at the record beyond the two world wars.
The question in depth: Why the Twin Towers? has never been addressed let alone answered in mainstream US discourse. A gaping omission.
US isolationism was as much about protecting the world from the US as it was protecting the US from the Old World. Those isolationists were terrified of the soul corrupting influence of empires.
Best the US start to lead by example. Kill your enemies with kindness, a sort of Marshall Plan of Love and Support.
For exampIe, if the US military wants to leave Afghanistan with honour, it should stick around for awhile longer but turn its 'guns into ploughshares'.
Let's all admit it, the American dream is most peoples' dream, world wide, even though sometimes their leadership acts otherwise.
I suspect if the US had taken a neighbourly view of the Cuban revolution at the time, the latter would have lasted ten years at the most, not 50 years. And what significant damage did Cuba's long lasting example do to US lives and treasure over those fifty years.
4
Anyone for using US pressure that will (before his term is up) produce a better constitution, with respect for human rights (e.g., killing Coptic Christians would be strictly a no-no)? That is what we did in Japan—wrote their constitution for them, with a clause “renouncing war forever.” It as worked until now.
2
@Hacked You're leaving out the bit about Pearl Harbor and almost four years of bloody fighting in the Pacific.
At least we get a dictator that we like.
Let us recall that Egypt's last two presidents, Mubarak and the legitimately elected Morsi, are still around. They enjoy the hospitality of the government in exclusive gated facilities.
2
@MIKEinNYC Hosni Mubarak was released from prison, after being acquitted on appeal by Egypt's highest court in 2017.
2
It's like they don't learn. Just another dictatorship forming.
USA and its allies need to impose sanctions and embargo all of Egypt. We need to starve the entire population, refuse entry of all products from aboard deny Egypt the ability to export anything, apply sanctions that will collapse their economy and asure
hyper inflation, pre-empt all elections and recognize Only our own “man” and re direct all funds derived from exports to our man. We will seize all means of productions and place them in our man’s control. And we will also Promote a civil war and choose sides with our man in charge. OMG I just realized that we are doing a lot of that already Egypt. But we know we can do this coup de tete via an embargo. And we know we have already perfected our use of the embargo to this lethal degree because we are doing it in Venezuela! Sounds crazy? Vile! Undemocratic! It is! Sadly, I jest.
Ushering in the 32nd Dynasty, after a lull.
3
Egypt's future is all on Al-Sisi now. It is up to him whether he will use his considerable power to move Egypt forward, or whether he will allow the greed of the military officer class - which already controls a substantial share of the economy - to keep the vast majority of Egyptians mired in poverty & discontent, a state, which as we should have learned by now, breeds extremism.
3
Obviously, trump has damaged democracy on a global scale. It’s hard to imagine the United States engineered the demise of democracy. Our justice deptament has to work faster to oust our self-made emperor.
3
@David J Trump did not engineer this. Obama engineered this situation when he foolishly supported the Arab Spring movement without understanding the underlying cultural, religious, and political dynamics in each country. This is all Obama's fault.
4
Waiting for the global left to push a boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement against Egypt to prove that it doesn't only care about injustice when allegedly caused by Jews.
8
Sadly democracy becomes a morass of competing interests in countries where the fundamental tenants of social structure are hopelessly contradictory. Democracy works in the USA because the power structures are entrenched and are able to gorge in adequate largess. Despite this even our enfranchised elites are only able to hold on while cash keeps flowing to their target constituencies. Could be a police state crisis is not out of the question for a theater-near-you. If only if too many people weren't watching the wrong cable TV programs- which is essentially all of them.
1
This is a MAJOR illustration of the total hypocrisy of alleged free nations. The overthrow of a legitimate and democratically elected government by the people of Egypt in a military coup. Not one peep from any free nation. While I did not, and do not agree with their philosophy, as far as I was concerned the people of Egypt had exercised their free will.
19
I just got back from Egypt and from what I heard and saw, things are looking up for the Egyptians, especially after two years of the Muslim Brotherhood. The markets were full of shoppers, new construction everywhere, women being educated and exposing their hair, power production initiatives, water projects, less govt bureaucracy, and so on.
To be sure, I also saw a lot of poverty, trash, building-code nightmares, and air pollution levels in Cairo that mirrored Beijing, but the habitable parts of the country are bustling with activity. They aren't going to overcome decades of mismanagement by Mubarak and a couple of years of abuse from the Brotherhood overnight, but they are making strides.
6
@Amanda
Which may explain why there may be less unhappiness with President El-Sisi's rule than many Americans and others might expect.
5
@Want2know Tell that to all the pro-democracy activists and others rotting in stinking Egyptian prisons...
3
@Want2know, when I was in Russia, many said that the Soviet Union was better to live under. They did not have to fend for themselves. They were told what to do. Amibifion wasn’t an attribute.
I wonder if all the Egyptians protesting the Brotherhood minor changes saw this one coming. Again, poor and hard working people are are always too slow to react, and when we do, are easily manipulated.
5
Example # 13,275 that exposes the lie that America is intervening in Venezuela (or any country) for humanitarian reasons or concern over democratic principles.
4
El Sisi is Israel's partner in keeping the Palestinians of Gaza penned up in their open air prison as the price they all have to pay for having voted for Hamas a decade ago. Of course, over half the people of Gaza are children who didn't vote for anybody, who endure the brunt of the lack of food, clean water, regular attacks from the Israel "Defense" Force, while Egypt plays its part by ensuring they stay put in Gaza. The children are likely to develop only the warmest regard for both Israel and Egypt and the US.
That's certainly worth the $3.5 billion annually that we give both to Egypt and Israel for their 'self defense' against the "terrorists".
16
Blaming Israel for Egypt’s political crisis will not help Egyptians or the people in Gaza. When you finally realize that then maybe you’ll be able to truly help them live in a free society.
9
@d as her,
Plus the 1 billion to Jordan to like Israeli,
1
Is the iron dome not used for self defense? You're omitting a lot of information.
4
This again....nothing changes! We need real change for the good not dictators with their own agendas!
2
The autocrats of the Middle East must be rejoicing.
Such backward measures will only serve to rekindle future revolts, which will likely be more violent and extended.
The most sorrowful about this development is that poverty stricken Egypt does not have time to waste on continued failed governance, which has been long the primary cause of persisting and chronic failure of its economic and social development.
3
US position on dictators:
Egypt, El Sisi:
murders hundreds in the streets,
fake elections.
“Ok guy, We support him, arms sales, great guy”
Venezuela, Maduro:
doesn’t murder as many,
fake elections,
people able to protest,
“dictator! not Ok. We want him out, we stand for democracy”
21
@Frea
The issue is what the Egyptian people want. Many/most may well prefer el-Sisi to the possible alternatives. From what we have seen to-date, it appears that the people of Venezuela feel differently.
7
@Frea
No kidding... the USA plays favorites to bolster its foreign affairs you say? I bet all the other dictators are quite offended by that thought.
3
Says who?? Sissi is deeply unpopular, why else he imprisoned all his political opponents including an army chief of staff, senior judges, professors etc. It is very likely from my limited knowledge of Venezuela that Maduro is more popular than Sissi. The difference is that the later brutally crush all forms of dissent, while the former is letting an opponent challenge his authority.
3
So even the guise of democracy is erased and now we are just sending billions in military equipment paid for by US taxpayers to a dictator. Wonderful. So much for our ideals and being a beacon on the hill.
23