It's amazing to me how many times people write to the ethicist, asking for ablution for having betrayed others' confidences. The answer is always the same: if someone shares information with you in confidence that you believe you have a moral obligation to disclose, the FIRST THING you do is tell the sharer and give them the opportunity to do the right thing and disclose the information themselves. Consider the difference between these two scenarios: 1) a wife confesses to her husband that she has been unfaithful and can no longer bear the guilt. The two privately discuss it and go to counseling. 2) a friend tells the husband the wife cheated. The next day the husband asks her if she loves him and would ever cheat on him. Never, she says. He lures her into further lies -- and the lies become more hurtful than the cheating. Meanwhile, he worries that his 'friend' has spread the news to other people, and his relationship is now town gossip. Which scenario is more likely to end happily?
11
I take strong exception to the advice given to the writer concerned about her friend's cognitive decline. Without knowing the reason for the rift, this could be a betrayal. My once beloved sibling and his wife have chosen, and demonstrated time and again, that they wish no relationship with me (other than superficial at necessary family events). While I grieve the thoughtless loss of my closest family connections, I will not participate in the hypocrisy. My spouse (this post purports to be his...) is well aware that, should something happen to me where I cannot speak for myself, I would not want the brother and sister-in-law who exiled me when well, to suddenly show up full of concern when I am at my most vulnerable. The broad statement "Even if your friend is estranged from her sibling, this is a moment when family must be called upon...", relies on conventional wisdom about the thickness of blood, etc. The ethicist made my blood boil here.
31
@Todd Weir Yes! I am estranged from my brother because he is a violent alcoholic. I would not want anyone calling on him in a crisis. Self-preservation and safety come before family every time. We don't know why this person is estranged from the sibling. It could easily be something awful.
12
@Todd Weir
I agree about estranged family can be estranged for good reasons and are not wanted, for better or for worse. HOWEVER in many situations only a family member has standing to get help.
Or perhaps I’m wrong.
4
I was married 34 years and recently found out my now ex-spouse had been unfaithful a minimum of 5 times. Yes, I got sick – the HPV virus led to my cancer diagnosis, not to mention untold yeast infections and a devastated spirit. I felt that my friends who knew but never told me were complicit and betrayed my trust as well. I am floored that Kwame Appiah would not have considered the injury perpetrated on the man’s partner. If her husband were going to poison her or assault her, would he have stood by and said nothing to the wife to warn her? Infidelity is just as injurious. She deserved to be alerted to the onslaught on her body, mind, and spirit. Those who didn’t tell her betrayed her trust.
31
@Nancy Burkhalter
Completely agree. We have a moral responsibility to give the people we know potentially life-saving information about their own lives.
13
@Nancy Burkhalter Yes, this is a health issue. HPV, AIDS and many other issues are in play here. The decision to tell could be life saving.
11
Another possibility, not mentioned in the article, is that visiting friend might be taking medication(s) that could be causing the symptoms described, a well-documented phenomenon in older persons.
Other reader responses have suggested visiting the friend in her own environment. This is a worthy step if circumstances permit ($$$, time, commitments, etc). If not possible, another step is to contact Area Agency on Aging in friend's community, describe observations and ask for assistance in assessing friend's status, as a safety precaution/intervention.
18
LW3: Sometimes sitting down with someone to "show the math" can be effective. There are huge transaction costs involved in selling and buying. So, yeah, on paper it might look like he'd make $ on his house, but a lot of that would get lost in the transactions of selling, moving, and then buying/selling again.
You can also point out that these transaction costs make some people hold on to houses even as their values plummets. They can't afford to sell at a loss, and they can't afford the costs of selling and moving. It's unlikely he'd be able to buy the same house back if that's really his plan.
16
Attempting to have a logical conversation with the close friend in the throes of dementia is a useless suggestion. Even if she agrees she needs help,which I think is pretty unlikely,friend probably won’t remember the conversation to act on it. Traveling to her home , attempting to contact the sibling and possibly alerting senior services at the Dept of Human Services are the best you can do. Friend isn’t going to get better,just worse.
14
LW2: Get on a plane and visit with your friend in her own environment. She is likely in the early stages of dementia, and a visit to a strange place--your home--made it more apparent. In her own home, she may be managing well enough for now, but that won't last. One of the difficulties of dementia is that the person affected doesn't see their decline. While visiting your friend, look into service agencies in the area, and have one pay a visit to assess her circumstances. They know how to do this discretely. A home health aide twice a week may make a big difference. For now. At least as she deteriorates, she will be in the agency's system and they can help from there.
28
LW 1's issue feels very sticky and unhealthy, like trying to do therapy without a license. Why was it so necessary to get so involved? Who did you hope to be to these people? This guy needs the help of someone with boundaries, which is not you. Look at your motives. You got yourself into the situation of a failed savior. This was not your problem to solve. Your problem to solve is with yourself and with your relationships. Work on yourself instead.
20
LW1: Other than urging the young man to be tested for STDs, I can't see any reason to tell the partner anything. That would change, perhaps, if the person had caught a bad STD, and still didn't tell the partner. Then we're talking about a health matter.
LW2: We also have distant friends with apparent cognitive issues. We try to call more frequently and comment on our own mental health concerns in hopes of opening the conversation. Whenever they mention that perhaps they should see a doctor we applaud and encourage. It it looks like its getting worse, it is time to dig up the relatives - someone with power to do something. Friends have some responsibilities to care, but we can't control.
LW3: Offering alternative investment plans might be helpful. And offering some hard truths about his scheme might throw enough cold water on it to slow him down. But old coots are gonna do what old coots do. Unless you've got legal power to stop him, he could end up homeless. If he could end up being your financial responsibility, I think you have a right to get more deeply involved as a way to protect yourself.
9
@Gaston Buhunny Distant relatives who aren't in touch don't make good caregivers when push comes to shove. That's why we choose our friends, but not our relatives. For your friends' sake, be more proactive.
7
LW1: A very good psychologist, who helped me a great deal, told me "the guy in the middle gets killed." Be a go-between in somebody else's relationship at your own risk. Oh, listen to your wife, too. It's better for your marriage, and she's probably smarter than you are. Mine is.
LW2: As a retired neurologist, I hear people telling me about all sorts of weird things they do to their bodies with even weirder ideas as to why they think it is good. I'm not ever going to change their opinion. Don't try to teach a pig to fly. It doesn't work and annoys the pig.
20
I cannot say this strongly enough.
To the academic who put himself in the middle of his mentee's intimate relationship: what were you thinking? How was his cheating on his partner any of YOUR business? Apparently, you gave no thought to the consequences of your actions.
You weren't the only person affected by what you did. You say you and your wife had a friendship with the other couple. By your unilateral actions, your wife has now been deprived of this friendship. Why didn't you consult her before you went off?
What was the point of it all? Moral high ground? What, exactly?
35
@Susan True, it was none of his business. Then why was he told about it? He now has information he did not ask for, but could be of interest to the third party. I understand the man's ethical dilemma, don't you?
11
@Susan
It was his business because these people had become friends. This means everyone was affected by the behavior.
Once you have been told by one friend that he/she has cheated on another friend, you've been drawn into collusion.
Sounds like the mentor was unwilling to take on that involuntary role.
Better the friend had confided in a therapist
who had no skin in the game, so to speak.
I'd find It impossible to continue a friendship with two friends, while becoming a secret keeper for one of them.
14
Concerning LW1, I would most certainly want you to tell me if my wife was being unfaithful to me, especially when serious health issues are involved. However, there’s no getting around the fact that you should have spoken with your wife first. Think about it: if your roles were reversed, you definitely would have expected her to talk to you first.
11
Regarding a friend having symptoms of dementia, there is also help to be had, which can be a comfort to share. In fact there is now treatment for this. See RECODE and Dr. Dale Bredesen's scholarly articles regarding successful treatment/reversal of cognitive decline (Alzheimer's etc.).
2
The clue is in the writer's sentence: "I spent many hours with them on the phone, helping them to work this out, and they got back together." He sounds proud and takes full credit, but what he really did was to enable them to continue not facing their most serious issue, the young man's drinking problem. It's affecting both his job and home life ... and as most professionals know, you won't be helping such a person with other issues in his life as long as he's not dealing with it. By ignoring that fact, the writer displays his own refusal to face facts. What he did instead was to punish the young man for not obeying his advice by outing him without warning. The pride he took in being so depended on went before the fall of his failure, and that pride is why he wouldn't tell his wife, who no doubt would have called him on it.
35
As the ethicist, but many of the readers, knows, Aristotle distinguished between several kinds of friendship. I simple English, we may call these friendships of character, of utility, and amusement. No one in his or her right mind thinks there can be a friendship of character with a person who lacks it. One of the readers below comments that the LW will lose opportunities for other mentorships - treating the friendship here as one of utility. Rakes and buffoons can be very amusing - for those who like that sort of thing - sitting around over a beer listening to another person's sexual memoirs. Even people with halfway decent character can enjoy travelers tales - but they would know better than to trust the travelers.
Perhaps the best course for LW to take, given his moral disapprobation of his friend's behavior, is to recognize that this friend wasn't really friend material and back away.
8
I have a feeling that the guy wanting to sell his house really wants to move but can't cut the cord to his old house. So he's made up this elaborate theory (very California to have theories about real estate). If he invests his proceeds and rents something more modest than the house he sold he might find he's exactly where he needs and wants to be. I say all this because I believe there's a lot of unconscious motivation in the way people handle real estate. The concerned relative is right to worry, but maybe he should try to get the man to think it through psychologically.
7
If my husband were cheating, I would want to know. It goes beyond trust, it is a health issue.
29
@Jennifer. That doesn't speak to the question. The man betrayed a friends trust. Period.
13
And the husband violated his wife’s trust. I have little sympathy.
10
@Lee Herring He betrayed a 'trust' he didn't ask for. Something like: "I've done something bad and may infect our friend. Don't tell him."
13
LW2 I doubt talking on the phone is an effective way to move this forward. return the visit, see your friend in her own environment, then decide what to do and how to tell her. Maybe while there you’ll meet someone else close enough to help, as your physical distance makes it impossible for you to play a meaningful, ongoing role. Maybe you can facilitate a connection with a local support organization, or even learn how to contact her family.
34
This is one of the oldest conflicts in the book and your supplicant, who should have known he was a weakling, should never have accepted the responsibility of confidence.
Although he refers to the defamed man as his confessor, and acknowledges he doesn't know the full truth, still, and he must not be a Roman Catholic or he would understand that he should have told "the young man" that he would renege on the understood oath of confidence which he had undertook.
He has taken a mortal sin upon himself.
3
@Frank Correnti
What has being a Roman Catholic got to do with this situation? Only ordained Catholic priests act as official confessors who are obligated to keep secret what they are told during a confession. Ordinary lay Catholics are free to act just as foolishly as this man, who told the friend's partner about the infidelity. He acted stupidly, but he didn't commit a sin.
22
@Linda
yes technically as a lay person he did not commit a sin. as neither priest, therapist nor lawyer if anyone confides in me I honor that same code.
so yeah not a sin, just wrong. he should have called out the friend/mentee on his behavior (urge pro counseling?) not tattled to the partner, who may well be aware of such behavior already, but pride forbids acknowledgement.
3
LW1 Given that he was involved with getting the couple back together after they broke up because of infidelity, it was absolutely correct to inform the partner about the drunken sex. It was a duty in my opinion. The partner was in serious danger both physical and emotional and the young man is in need of serious help. Friendship is not always easy, most likely the confession was a cry for help not an implied secret.
24
I couldn't agree more with the commentator who said "dear friends and colleagues please tell me if you find out my partner is cheating on me."
I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I firmly believe that many people who are cheated on would have wanted to be told.
My husband cheated on me with another woman from his home town for many years, but I did not know. Call it naive. But I fundamentally believed he had the same attitude about our marriage that I did, and it never even crossed my mind that he would betray my trust. Over the years numerous friends and family of his in his home town found out about his cheating, but no one told me on the theory it was a "private matter." Except it _wasn't_ private: they all knew. Secret (from me), yes. Private, no. And I will be grateful to that person for literally the rest of my life that one of them finally could not stand it any more and got up the courage to tell me. I only wish they had done it far sooner, before I wasted years of being married to a person who was doing that behind my back.
LW1 you did the right thing.
101
Aside from the gravely serious matter of infectious disease exposure, infidelity is abuse. Society needs to evolve to recognize this. Stepping forward to safeguard another human being from abuse is commendable. It’s troubling that a consensus would likely support calling out a case of financial abuse, yet sociopathic behavior like infidelity is still mostly met with a blind eye and a shrug.
45
@Will
There are many causes besides "sociopathy" for infidelity. And many couples work things out after discovering It's been going on.
4
Will Durant's observation that "Nothing is often a good thing to do, and always a brilliant thing to say" strikes me as good advice for about 90% of the inquires to The Ethicist. Certainly it applies to the Mentor's case.
23
@Ben "Do nothing, and everything will get done."—Lao Tze, TA TE CHING
5
That's the TAO TE CHING, by Lao Tze.
1
Answering the question.....YES
Mind your own business
You won't be remembered with fondness for being the one who thought this was any of your business...but you will be remembered for the pain you saw fit to drop in a friends lap.,
MYOB
11
I believe the answer to the question "Was I Wrong to Tell a Friend’s Partner About His Infidelity?" could not be simpler:
It was not this man's secret to tell. Period.
The fastest way to ruin any relationship is to recklessly run one's mouth.
25
@Marge KellerBut was the cuckold not also his friend? If the young man nwanted his secret kept secret, he should not have shared it in the first place.
9
@Marge Keller
It was not his friend's secret to know in the first place either. The cheater should have kept still instead of running HIS mouth.
3
@nancy
That is true but in the end, this man lost the friendship of both men because for whatever reason or need, he felt compelled to run his mouth instead of keeping that intel to himself.
Maybe it's just me but any time someone tells me something, especially like an issue centering around infidelity, I keep that info to myself. Isn't the opposite of keeping still a gossip?
4
With regard to the real estate issue: Perhaps the relative attended some kind of crackpot, Ponzi-scheme-type seminar for elderly and/or gullible folks and got this "advice" there. Might be worth asking how the relative came to this idea and proceed from there.
53
@Katrin
yeah it's rare that California real estate devalues (short of a bad foundation inspection coupled with a new seismic analysis).
so down-size, decide a landlord can worry about maintenance, sure these are valid issues. but the CA market crashing 50%? that sounds kinda drastic.
2
If two people are a couple who agree to be monogamous, that agreement is more than a simple emotional commitment. In today's world, breaking that agreement is a question of life and death.
A partner who gets drunk and has sex with another person, puts himself at risk for contracting a STD. If they are very lucky that STD is curable(Chlamydia, Gonorrhea, Syphilis.) However, there are STD s that do not kill but they cannot be cured, they can only be treated (Herpes, HBV, HPV).
Of course, we all know about HIV which leads to AIDS. There currently is still no cure for this.
So, a sexual partner who agrees to be monogamous, puts themselves in a position of contracting an incurable viral infection, and possibly a fatal infection, ALSO puts their partner at risk.
This is not a moral judgement. It is a mathematical certainty.
Ask yourself, if you had a daughter or son in a monogamous relationship and you knew their partner had engaged in sex with multiple partners, would you say nothing and risk your son or daughter contracting herpes for life? Would you risk their dying from Aides?
I have three daughters. I absolutely would not take the chance of them dying just to honor the confidence given to me by their husbands/boyfriends/partners.
If someone we know, especially someone we love, is at risk of contracting a fatal infection and we are aware of that risk, we not only have a moral right to inform them, but rather, we have a moral obligation to do so.
39
A former in-law chased me down after my divorce to say she had advocated for the divorce because he had cheated. This was hurtful, and unnecessary--I always knew of his cheating even though he consistently denied it. How? Not by snooping. A wife simply knows. She can feel her husband's lies in her gut. There is now science behind this, and it involves mirror neurons.
2
@Mary M
I, too, knew when my (now Ex) husband cheated, quite possibly before he even actually slept w/the people involved. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that all cheaters are that transparent, or that all cheated-on spouses are that perceptive. I think my cheater was actually dumb and clumsy, and his entitlement led him to believe things would come out much better for him than they did. But there are truly skillful cheaters and liars out there.
If the person knows, and you tell? No harm is done. If the person doesn't know, and you tell? A lot of harm can be avoided.
We shouldn't collude with dishonesty.
5
To the mentor. You completely violated the mentor / mentee trust. If you accepted this gentleman as a mentor you had an obligation to keep what was said in confidence. You might feel what he did is immoral but he didn’t break the law.
As a mentor you should have focused on helping him get into a recovery program and helping him professionally, being a mentor does not give you the right to be judge and Jury over this mans life.
Instead, you let your personal opinions about morality take priority over your role as mentor. I would agree you can’t be blamed for the consequences of his actions, but you can be blamed for using poor judgment and being very selfish.
Best course of action is an apology for overstepping your bounds and let the mentee decide how to move forward (assuming you still want to be his mentor).
4
@Prudence Spencer Is there a difference between professional mentor, and 'moral' mentor, whatever that might be? It seems you are confusing the two, correct?
You missed a salient detail: he was intimately counseling BOTH of them. So it wasn’t a priest/confessor relationship. That went out the window when Partner 1 let Advanced Years counsel Partner 2.
1
You were way too easy on the guy who outed his friend's infidelity. Not remotely his place, and his wife was absolutely right to blast him for violating a trust.
10
@Jim R. This column has a habit of equivocation.
5
Two popular songs, both them excellent address the infidelity confidentiality issue:
Should We Tell Him? by the Everly Brothers
and
Silence is Golden by the Four Seasons (written by Bob Gaudio, later also by the Tremeloes)
3
I do find it interesting that in the post on infidelity, the issue of STDs was never mentioned.
38
I think the old saw of respecting the privacy of the affairs of others gets "trumped" now that it's common knowledge that STDs can cause cancer and HIV. The unsuspecting partner may be engaging in unprotected sex because they believe their cheating partner is monogamous - and that endangers their lives.
36
My two cents: the prudent thing to do is to advise the mentee to abstain from physical relations with his partner until he gets himself tested negative for STDs, and in the interim, ask for forgiveness from his partner. His partner deserves to know whether he is sexually infected and have the option to decide whether to give him a chance to be faithful again. He needs treatment for his alcoholism, otherwise, the cycle will repeat.
15
Regarding the first letter, I've actually been in that spot. Knew a married couple where one man was brazenly cheating on his husband, recklessly, not even with alcohol or drugs involved. He just wanted to keep sleeping around and stay married.
I didn't know the husband as well, but he struck me as a genuinely good guy, probably smart enough to have caught on to what was going on, probably convincing himself all the time that it wasn't really happening.
It was tough but I convinced myself it wasn't my place to step in. Gradually I lost touch with them both, but now neither remembers me as the snitch who broke up their marriage, and their marriage will have to dissolve or recover based on their actions. Glad it turned out this way, and really, everyone despises being saved from themselves.
10
LW1 I don't know whether telling the partner was the right thing to do, but I do know that leaving your wife out of the decision-making was wrong. I think you need to focus on your relationship with her right now.
12
@Evelyn If advice were being given, to a wife, to run decisions through her husband before acting, there might justly be righteous indignation.
1
Some people are criticizing those who would tell on an affair as "busybodies," or people who should "mind their own business." I'm of the opinion that if someone has made their affair known to you, either by telling about it directly or by flaunting it, they have made it your business. Had they been discreet, this wouldn't involve you. If they, whether by carelessness or design, have involved you in something you find reprehensible, something you know is harmful to another human being about whom you care, it's fully right and appropriate to do what you feel best with the information which has been, through no choice of your own, dumped in your lap. You certainly don't have a responsibility to keep their sad secret. It's kind and good to give them the opportunity to confess before you out them, but that's all I'd give them, and if I had reason to suspect that the "confession" was really less than such, I'd continue to advocate for the truth, wherever such advocacy may lead.
27
Twice LW2 calls her "dear friend" "close," but if they're really close, and they really "talk and correspond frequently," the LW should be straightforward with her. Tell her the decline is apparent, and she's got to provide answers to the questions:
1) Give me you relative's phone number or your doctor's. I care enough about you to alert one or both of them about your situation.
2) If you can't trust me enough to do that, I'm calling something like aging.com. Like it or lump it.
6
@Pecan
I really think that's unlikely to go well.
7
In the first case here: The (pronoun-less) partner already knew about the excessive drinking and the likelihood of recurrent infidelity. And the lying. And the possibility of s.t.d.'s.
The letter writer's only function was to be an open ear; the one person to whom the rover could tell the truth. I have been in a similar position to the writer, and I understand the temptation to get involved. Leaving his wife out of the loop, when she would likely have cautioned him against interfering, was a serious breach in its own right; it was also a test of his own fitness as an off-topic mentor, which he failed.
Better to let others sort through their own mess, unless a specific request for help is made. Even then, the tendency will be to resent the advice giver/"truth"teller.
8
I'm not sure the first letter writer was wrong to tell the partner, since drunken, quite possibly unprotected sex with several people could easily result in the unfaithful one picking up an STD that could be passed to the partner. Some STDs, particularly Human Papilloma Virus, can have no noticeable symptoms. Certain strains of HPV cause cancer. And of course, HIV has no symptoms shortly after infection. So perhaps LW1 should have strongly advised his friend to get STD testing and inform his partner of the results if necessary. If the friend refused to do so, LW1 would, in my opinion, be justified in telling the partner regardless of the possible breakup -- her health is more important in that case.
11
The major problem with LW1 is that he inserted himself into a relationship in the first place by "helping them to work this out." As a friend or mentor, he should never have put himself into that position. That's what therapists or counselors are for. You can state your opinion, but it's not good form to become a relationship referee.
Once that three-way relationship occurred, he got into hot water by trying to continue having a therapist type of role.
The best advice is to stay out of other people's personal relationships, but if asked, tell the truth.
31
@bookworm
He may actually be a therapist or counselor.
1
@fast/furious
I had the same thought, though ethically you wouldn’t be a therapist to friends. You also would not disclose this confidence. You could, however, recommend that your mentee tell the partner.
7
The advice to the couple concerned about their friend is kind but likely not too useful, unfortunately. The behaviors the letter-writer describes are consistent with a form of dementia that leaves the afflicted individual with poor insight and self-awareness, so a chat over the phone will probably fall on ears that are unable to recognize the severity of the situation. I would suggest that the letter-writer visit her friend at the friend's home and, while there, attempt to identify individuals and services that may be able to provide support. Depending on her commitment to her friend, she could discuss the possibility of her taking on power of attorney for finances and/or healthcare. She should also notify the local authorities of her concerns given that this type of impairment can lead to public events requiring police intervention, especially if the individual is living on her own.
30
Infidelity reveal - often partners are unaware of what's going on and it is terrible to blame the victim of infidelity for being in the dark as often happens. Friends sometimes have to risk losing their friendship to protect their friend in giving them that information (which they may or may not already be aware of). What that party does with the information is a personal choice and THAT part of it is nobody's business. In this case, the manipulative alcoholic knew the character of his friend and was certain he would share the information, enabling him to blame the friend for his trouble rather than take responsibility for his alcohol abuse and the damage it wrought.
34
@df
I hadn't considered that, but it's very possible. Some people who are out of control do sometimes set up situations where a more responsible person feels forced to act. That they get angry about it or embarrassed does not take away the fact that they "arranged" in a crude way for someone else to take charge.
29
Aside from the other issues with the would be home seller's plan, even if the housing bubble bursts there's no guarantee his home will be placed back on the market.
36
Exactly. And, there’s no guarantee that his subsequent offer would be accepted.
1
For the Real Estate issue, I'd express my concern that this gambit will not come through. Ask what plans your relative has if real estate values do not crash. Would he be satisfied renting vs. owning for an extended period? Would he rebuy at a higher price? Is he investing the equity during the interim period, if so, what if THAT market suffers a downturn?
It's hard to logic someone out of a belief they didn't logic themselves into, but you can at least prompt him to be prepared if it doesn't work.
19
@Daniel. I'm presently not real-estate invested after having a house for many years.
Sometimes, renting just works better as it does for me now.
4
This entire column should be titled: Several shades of minding your own business. For the cognitive-impaired friend, follow up contact is definitely warranted. Soon. Research and pass along Her local options.
For the Real Estate Fiasco: this person is the victim of a " seminar " or a paid " get Rich Quick " program. Offer your advice, IF asked, then step back.
For the infidelity guy : what were you thinking ??? Next time, consult your Wife, FIRST. Perhaps less " helping ".
44
There's also the overlay of heteronormativity in the first writer's response and the assumption (in at least some of the comments) that this is a heterosexual couple when it's clear the writer (and editor) took great pains in masking the genders. I wonder how readers (including myself) would react knowing this is a gay couple. There's all kinds of queer theory about ideas of fidelity and monogamy in relationships and how these ideas have been forced on us through historic notions of ownership and sexual exclusivity. There's definitely a different standard within the gay community that makes many straight people uncomfortable. Even more reason for the writer to bud out of their relationship and let them sort things out without his judgment.
5
I'm gay (and married-- and would probably be accused by you of subscribing to heteronormative standards of fidelity), and while, sure, people shouldn't assume the couple involved is straight, it is absolutely ok to assume that this was not an open relationship, as evidenced by the context given in the letter.
59
@Scott Kohanowski, there are open marriages and so forth in heterosexual coupling, too. Either way, the issue is betrayal of trust and subsequent wrecking of others' marital relationship. The basic questions are the same.
28
@Scott Kohanowski
I agree with amir and jb: whether a couple is gay or straight, it's always wise to assume that they expect each other to be monogamous unless you definitely know otherwise. In addition, the way in which the writer's friend disclosed the sexual activity suggests that the friend considered it problematic. There were plenty of red flags here, and the writer chose to ignore them.
By the way, in your final sentence, the correct term is "butt out," not "bud out."
9
I accidentally discovered the my boss and his secretary were having an affair. He essentially asked me not to tell his wife. I made it clear that while it was their private business I would not lie for them if asked.
79
What ever happened to "Mind you own business"?
The world is full of busybodies, eager to tell others how to live.
So I respond to their advice with my own: you really -- really -- need to lose some weight!
15
Dear Friends and Colleagues: If my partner is cheating on me, please tell me. My health is important to me. Thank you.
151
For those in the "mind your own business" crowd regarding affair disclosure - if your cheating partner is putting you at risk for an STD (including permanent ones like herpes which can be contracted even when condoms are used), hopefully anyone who knows will "mind their own business" until you make an itchy discovery!
37
I disagree with the commenters who say the writer of letter #1 should have minded his own business. He says he had a friendship with both the mentee as well as the partner. Multiple sexual encounters under circumstances of impaired judgement (being drunk) are a health risk. He passes that health risk on to his partner (assuming they are still being intimate). The writer owed a duty to the partner to inform him or her of this health risk.
52
@Mrs Nesbitt
Nevertheless, the writer should have told the mentee about the planned disclosure. After some discussion, the mentee might have even found a way to make the disclosure personally, which might have been much less damaging all around.
32
1. On the friend, his monogeneric (or homogeneric) partner, and the alleged infidelity. -- I think that the third party should have kept his mouth shut.
2. On the relative expecting a real-estate crash. -- If the individual cannot be certified as being of unsound judgement, there is nothing the concerned relative can do, other than try to make the other see the fallacy and dangers of his reasoning.
2
@Tuvw Xyz 1. On what ethical basis do you believe this? And, "alleged", sure, but alleged by the active partner...
1
To the real estate adviser: tell your relative just what you said here. You said it well.
23
The older mentor's duty was to try to persuade his young friend to talk to his partner himself. In having sex with various others, the younger man was putting his partner's health at risk as well as his own. Partner has a right to know this (though this doesn't mean it's mentor's duty to alert her). Give younger man a time limit within which to do this (knowing that will strain the relationship), with the understanding that if the cheating isn't revealed, mentor will inform on younger man.
Since the younger man's drinking seems to be the root problem here, the mentor may have a duty
14
Yes, you were wrong to tell a friend about his partner’s infidelity.
When people confess things to us in confidence, we must resist the temptation to make it all about us. “I was very disturbed...”; “I agonized over the decision...”; “I decided I needed to speak to his partner...”. This is what it sounds like when we center ourselves and our needs above the people who put their trust in us.
No, you did not break up your friend’s relationship with his partner. He did that on his own. But you did break up your relationship with your friend, both personally and professionally.
(And I would not be that surprised if your former friend told his professional contacts to avoid you. So you may have blown a number of possible future mentoring opportunities as well.)
13
NW1: It is a strange choice the Ethicist made in assuming, by default, that telling the partner was the right --nay, only-- choice to be made here. NW was WRONG for tattle-taling given, yes, that these were ordinary circumstances, and the Cheater confided in NW as a friend. No grounds for revealing it to the partner at all whatsoever. Indeed, NW did not even seem to consider this fact or what NW hoped to achieve by telling. This entire endeavor smacks of mere gossiping. Even the assumption that it was right to approach the Cheater and threaten to tell is a very questionable assumption! At best it's a threat, at worst it's pure blackmail. If NW was so concerned the advice should have been to approach the Cheater...and discuss his problems. The End.
Further, it is odd that the Ethicist seems to subscribe to the absolute liability theory of ethics, as shown in the final paragraph. NW's wife is correct to state that NW destroyed their relationship. That the Cheater did could have ruined their relationship anyway is immaterial, and absolving the messenger here rather stinks of a heavy-handed moral judgment on the part of the Ethicist. Not telling the partner could have led to a cleaner and healthier future for the Cheater (it's that redemption thing), telling the partner only had the very expected outcome of destroying their relationship quite possibly when the Cheater needed stability most.
3
@Clotario Or telling the cheater that you out him to his partner if he didn’t as the first option. STDs are not a joke nor can they be cured by after the fact contrition.
6
@Clotario No need, at all, for telling the letter-writer, either. But he did.
There are reasons to intervene in the first case. as the party, when drunk, engaging in safe sex? My guess is that no one remembers. Alerting the partner may be necessary as a matter of health safety. You sleep with everyone your partner sleeps with. But it is also true that most people know, especially with a partner with a drug or alcohol problem, that infidelity is a real possibility. There are all manner of "signs" that infidelity occurs. If the first writer was simply acting out of indignation then he should have kept his mouth shut. I agree that he also should have told the partner that he was going to reveal the infidelity and give the partner the chance to do it.
The elderly friend is a tough call. There are public organizations dedicated to elder care issues. Alerting the friend to concerns regarding her competency is necessary, even though it most likely will result in the concerns being ignored. Using the writer's analogy, you can warn a drunk person not to drive, and even take the keys, but the next night or other nights it is up to the drunk not to drive (and most of the time they do drive).
Most answers given by Dr. Appiah this week were kind of bloodless, I thought.
2
It's not ethically wrong, just foolish. In these circumstances, it is never a good idea to put your neck on the chopping block, that is unless you want to distance yourself from your friend. You will never shake off the image of the person who snitched. It might be an isolated incident that will heal itself. You just don't know. If your friend asks if you know but even then I would be cautious.
1
Yes. Friendship is about loyalty and trust and the aphorism, “don’t tread on me”.
1
@DENOTE MORDANT Friendship to whom? Certainly not the partner being cheated on if you participate in betraying them by keeping the secret.
9
A good “friend” doesn’t put you in the middle of an impossible situation and then get ticked off when his own SIGNIFICANT actions trigger an outcome he doesn’t like.
5
Dear person whose addled friend visited, I have had a similar experience, and when I saw my own friend after so long and realized there was something wrong with her, I didn't say much - I didn't want to offend, of course; she had been through cancer a few years ago and who knows what those drugs might do to one mentally, and I was also in shock to see her acting so strangely.
I gave it a lot of thought after the visit was over: was it just the years of separation that made me forget how "quirky" she is? Was she nervous about seeing each other and had a few too many drinks to calm down? Was I overreacting? (I finally realized that she probably has a serious drug problem, easily hidden from me when I see her only by email and text.)
I'm not suggesting that's what's going on with your friend, but I wonder - are you able to go and visit her in her own environment, and check out what's happening? Maybe you'll discover she does have some ways of being helped that you wouldn't know about, such as close neighbor friends. Or maybe she's better off than you think, and it will ease your mind? Or worse off, and then you will know that you should do something more intrusive to help?
27
@Patrick M
Your idea of the concerned writer visiting the addled friend is a good one, becaue in her own environment, her ability to function - or not - will be clearer, as will the supports available. But the LW should be advised - in for a penny, in for a pound. She may become, at least initially, the go to person. She has to think about how to handle this if there is no support system, the relative in unmoved, and the friend is deteriorating with no plan in place at all.
16
Why didn't the person ratting out the cheater just tell the cheater he doesn't want to participate in, and tacitly condone, the charade, and say, "I'm afraid your conduct makes it impossible for me to continue this social relationship with you until you resolve things with your partner; after all, I become a sort of accomplce in this infidelity by participating in the concealment." Then withdraw from the relationship, pending the mentee's cleaning up his act.
Indeed, this would have achieved basically the same outcome, without a breach of trust/confidence on the mentor's part.
25
@Andrew
Agreed.
And, Is it just me who feels that the mentor/writer may have been way over-invested in the dynamics of the couple's relationship? He sounds as if he was part of a triad...
25
It is sad and somewhat surprising that LR1 did not realize that a confession of drunken carousing may have been a a cry for help and advice from a mentor. Perhaps if LR1 had told his friend he must make the confession to his partner and also seek help with his drinking within X period of time and if not, he would advise the partner for safety reasons.
While there's no guarantee that the outcome would have been different at least everyone would have known where they stood. Of course the LR should have told his wife of his decision immediately after hearing the confession.
10
@jar MAY have been. But what it objectively was: giving unasked for information with implications for a close third party. Who is at fault here? Why not blame the perpetrator, rather than one of the two victims?
1
He confessed that he engaged, after heavy drinking, with several partners. Given that behavior's potential for contracting HIV and other infectious diseases, and given that the two partners, in a what at least one believes is a steady relationship, are probably not using condoms, the cheating partner poses a huge risk to the other.
Given this, he was right to tell of the infidelity.
10
i wonder if the friend of the lady, who more than likely has dementia, might go visit her. She could sit down for a frank chat and persuade her to see her doctor.
if she is unable to make that trip, perhaps she could find out the doctor's name (some subterfuge in a phone call with the friend might extract it from her) and contact the doctor to express her concrrn. She might also contact an Alzheimer's Support Group in the friends area; likely they could advise.
23
To the house-seller: Maybe the correct advice is to "down-size" to another market and take the profits which apparently he thinks he needs.
21
Generally if you are friends with two parts of a couple, it is healthy to not get too much into their relationship problems.
29
@Mainer
Generally, if you are friends with two parts of a couple, and one is dishonest and putting their partner's life at risk, you should either get involved or end the friendship.
2
Were a "friend" to come to me and tell me that my partner was engaged in an affair, I would cut that "friend" out of my life immediately. We are a nation of busybodies, constantly thinking we have the absolute right to interject ourselves into the lives of others. We are being "helpful" we claim. It's because I love you so that I give you this damaging and painful information, and then stand back and gleefully watch as the relationship falls apart. Other people's relationships are no one's business (unless physical, psychological or mental abuse is taking place), and we have no way of knowing what form those relationships take. What is told to you in confidence should immediately be forgotten. The first letter writer is not a mentor, he is a interfering, meddlesome, tattletale.
17
@Ms. Pea Cheating on someone IS psychological abuse. Apart from the emotional trauma, it puts the betrayed partner at risk of STIs - including fatal ones without their consent. Its a human rights issue. People have a right to informed consent about the sexual risks they face. Keeping that information from them is a violation of those human rights. And the smear that the person will be "gleeful" at the destruction that the cheater caused is just weird. The only reason I can think of for such as comment is that perhaps you cheated on your partner and are afraid someone will let them know. If that is the cause, I hope that someone does so they can extricate themselves from the mess.
22
@Srb I agree with Ms. Pea. No one know's people's personal marital arrangements and to insinuate that Ms. Pea has cheated is a low blow. She was only expressing her personal preferences to not know what her spouse may be doing - and that is her absolute right. Many a marriage have a workable "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" arrangement that has been worked out by spouses, and that is to be respected. At my age I would not want to know of my husband's wanderings either nor he want to know of mine. He has told me this up front (although we don't go anywhere we re home). Not everyone romantically involved or married is sexually active with their spouses, so the constant inference about STI's would be a moot point for many couples anyway.
4
Dear Mrs Pea,
You need to read up on “people” and “empathy.” People have all kinds of opinions and beliefs, and they are often different than yours without being “wrong.”
You would call someone who blabbed a busybody. But you would not, I am sure, have actively engaged a third party to mediate your relationship.
2
This is so easy. When someone says I need to tell you something in confidence it MUST remain in confidence.
There are only two other alternatives. The first is to tell the person that I cannot guarantee you unconditional confidentiality. Now, it is up to the person with the secret to decide if they wish to 'confess' to me or not.
The second choice is to promise unconditional confidentiality and then try to get the person to tell a minister, counselor, or most importantly---confess to the aggrieved party.
The letter writer had no right to blab to the partner. None.
28
@Concernicus
It would have been comforting for Bernie Madoff to have a confidant such as you.
8
@Concernicus
Would you say the same if the person confessed they were stealing from their job? If they were putting their partner's life in danger in other hidden ways? If they were abusing a child? If they were hitting their partner, instead? If they were undermining the electoral process?
We may draw the line in different places, but let's not pretend there is no line to be drawn.
3
An acquaintance of mine received an anonymous card telling her of her husband's ongoing affair. I'd rather receive something like that than not know at all. She was at least a little more prepared when he decided to leave.
59
@Lynn
How does one not know? In a relationship, I like regular sex. If my sex with my partner were not goo,d I would end the relationship. I can't imagine that a cheating spouse would continue to have a lot of sex with his or her spouse. Therefore,wouldn't the absence of sex in the relationship or marriage be a tip off about infidelity.
From what I know about life dating, women throw themselves at men 6' 2" or taller (all the guys I know like this get a lot of interest fro women). Therefore, if a tall husband is not having sex with his wife, chances are decent he's having sex with someone else.
2
@Anti-Marx
This is among the weirdest comments I have ever read.
54
@Anti-Marx: Never heard that one about a 6'2" threshold. Just so you know, I'm 5'7" and do just fine.
20
"You cannot time the market" can have merit in many instances, however, it can be a lazy out for financial advisors. When topped with the advice to keep putting funds in the hands of said financial advisor - so that s/he has a steady commission stream - that advice needs to have a substantial foundation that can be articulated.
I wonder how many readers got the quoted advice ten years ago and watched institutional investors do much better with timing/hedging strategies.
3
@SMD I got out of the equities market in late 2007, and never went back.
I have slept much better as a result.
2
Re: the friend with cognitive decline, I would think paying HER a visit would be a good next step. That might put you in a better position to assess her situation - to understand her living situation, meet any friends (even if they are few) and neighbors, get an idea of her daily life, etc. From there you might be able to figure out how to get her connected to local resources.
34
@DW If the writer can possible do that, it would be a very good idea. Is her friend maintaining her home in a sanitary manner, have months of mail (including bank statements, tax notices, etc.) piled up unread, is she eating adequately, is she taking any medication as prescribed, do the door locks work, have burned out light bulbs been replaced, how does she shop?
If she goes to her friend's city, as you noted, she can chat to neighbours, maybe find out who her friend's doctor is, contact them with her concerns, and connect with local services for the aged.
I visited an acquaintance (long story), at one point when I hadn't heard from her for a couple of months, and had been worried about her for a couple of years.
She was barricaded behind walls of trash, all the lights in the house were burned out, the kitchen was impassable. I called an ambulance. She spent two months in hospital recovering from dehydration, malnutrition and the effects of not taking her medication, and was then moved to long term care.
32
@Jean As a post script to my story above. If we think of ourselves as ethical or good people, at some point we have to step up when those alarm bells ring. Those alarm bells may be in conflict with what we have thought to be 'polite' social interaction. Many times we ignore them.
This writer, like most of us do, feels a deep reluctance to interfere in the life of another person, even an old friend. Most of us are shy that way.
I think that if I had not decided to go see the person I mentioned above, who was a client at the company I worked at, and that I had no responsibility for, that she would have died alone, in a dark and cold house (the heating bills had not been paid), within a few weeks.
When I did see her, she was dressed in a filthy nightgown and had difficulty walking. I don't know when she last ate.
At 72, she had nobody else in her life, and as a person who by choice, was deeply private, had escaped the notice of her larger society. I knew how to refer her to our Public Guardian, it was just a phone call, and how to get her cared for by our healthcare system, I called the ambulance.
She is doing well now in the long term care facility, and tells me that she feels 'lucky' to be there. I visit her sometimes, she remembers me in a vague way, and is engaged with the life in the home.
I feel good about my interference in her life. I am glad that I did it, and if I see something like that once more, will not be reluctant to do it again.
91
@Jean
Your story is why I sincerely hope that like everyone in my father's side of the family, I'm dead by 70. I have no children or other family who would care for me in those circumstances, and frankly I'd rather die on my own terms than be stuck in some long term nursing home. Since you didn't know this woman well enough to know what her wishes would have been, I'm not too sure you did the right thing.
2
Regarding the friend with the cognitive decline: If there is any way you can find out the name of her physician, write them a letter detailing what you have observed in your friend. HIPPA laws prevent the doctor from disclosing information to you, but do not stop you from relaying information to the doctor.
36
@Margaret This advice is kind but futile. The LW has repeatedly asked her friend for contacts, and the latter has refused to provide any. She's not going to pass on the name of her doctor.
6
@Margaret It's HIPAA. Forget the hippo-like acronym. HIPAA stands for Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.
6
If it's really cognitive decline chances are you wouldn't get the name of a current the physician - if there is one at all anyway.
2
Regarding the real estate question, you and others made good points, and I'd like to add that if the relative is determined to take some profit now, and he's able to live in reduced circumstances, another possibility is to downsize substantially. If he buys a much cheaper place now, he both reduces his raw exposure to a broad decline in values, and still benefits somewhat from appreciation if that occurs instead. He could invest the net profits in other assets. Alternatively, he could lease a tiny place with a 1-2 year locked-in cheap rent, find cheap storage out of town for his furniture etc., and avoid his feared market drop at a smaller cost. Or just relocate to a whole different market.
9
Regarding the third writer, he should dig deeper into why his relative believes the L.A. real estate is on the verge of a "crash," and come up with a compelling argument against that belief. It's true that there has been a lot of talk in the media lately about a possible recession in the coming years, but that wouldn't necessarily drive a huge drop in RE values, especially in a healthy market like L.A.
14
@Alan
Though I agree with you and the writer - it's foolish to try and time investments, especially an illquid, slow-transacting one such as real estate - it's also true that LA and outlying areas have crashed twice in the past thirty years. First, in the late 80's/early 90's with the departure of aviation production (and industrial production in general) from the region, combined with other cutbacks in defense spending.
Then, in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis, prices declined precipitously after a long boom. The inner core of LA was badly affected, and peripheral areas devastated.
Home ownership in California is usually a reliable wealth-builder, but the place has always been, and continues to be, a setting for busts as well as booms.
4
All very good advice. But saying that the friend must contact her siblings she is estranged from to report this is not always correct. They could be people that abused her, want to take advantage of her, and so on. First her friend should contact services where she lives and ask their advice on how to help her friend.
62
Re the house-owning relative: advise people to see qualified financial advisors. They can provide wise context and advice without the personal issues.
Even this issue, as described, is more complicated than presented, and financial advisors can look at the entire context of a person's finances and goals.
Just one example, although the letter writer is correct that we cannot time markets, it is also true that it is dangerous for anyone, especially near retirement, to have all of their assets tied up in one, illiquid, potentially volatile asset: should the relative's retirement depend solely upon the fortunes of the Los Angeles residential real estate market? What if the relative is forced to cash out when the market is down?
There are many other concerns which a financial advisor can explain. Objectively. [note: I am not a financial advisor. Ask a real one.]
16
Given the way Prop 13 works in California, he would lose money just by repurchasing his own house for the amount that he originally sold it for, because his property taxes would immediately go up, probably considerably.
82
@Caroline
Not to mention moving expenses, broker fees, etc. as well as rent. Even if his scheme is sound in principle (which I don't think it is), he's probably not figuring in all the expenses he will incur in the two transactions.
44
@Caroline
Prop 13 is one of many reasons why it is almost always a bad idea to sell real estate in CA unless you absolutely have to. That has been true so far in my lifetime, and is likely to remain true for the foreseeable future.
10
The writer of the third letter might try pointing out to his house-selling relative that even in the 2008 recession housing prices did not go down by "50%" and that if that's the magnitude of change he's planning on leveraging, he's going to lose. He might also point out that the relative will give up X years of appreciation AND mortgage tax deductions from the time he sells until the time the wished-for crash occurs OR until he realizes it isn't going to happen, at which point he won't have the money to repurchase anything.
26
Plus the relative is paying two sets of real-estate commissions, moving expenses, closing costs, and other transaction expenses. I'd estimate he would be down 15% if the market was flat. That's a pretty big hole to climb out of.
23
@Brian Weiss, if you've checked out your taxes recently you may notice that unless you pay at least $14K in interest (assuming you have hit the maximum state and local tax deduction of $10K and have no other deductions) the interest deduction does you little good as you're under the new standard deduction limit. The new tax law has effectively removed that deduction line for many.
16
Not surprisingly, there's a big divide in these comments between those who have experienced the trauma of infidelity for themselves, and those who have not. PSA: Even when there is low risk of physical dangers like STDs, most people will experience emotional trauma with physical symptoms after learning about intimate partner betrayal. Also, the longer an affair goes on, the worse the emotional damage becomes (and reconciliation becomes less likely).
I myself am dealing with symptoms of post-traumatic stress 5 months after D-Day. I have learned that a dozen people whom I considered friends and family knew about my partner's affair before I did, and not a single one of them really advocated strongly for my right to know the truth. That's multiple additional layers of humiliation and betrayal. Our "Switzerland friends" had many options at their disposal: if they could not persuade my partner to tell me the truth, and if they did not want to betray her confidence, they could have sent me an anonymous note suggesting I check my partner's phone - which I wouldn't normally do - or told someone else who is close to me. Total silence is NOT ethical in this case, and if someone withholds such information from a "friend," they certainly should expect to lose that friendship, even though I well understand that the cheating partner also bears responsibility for this mess all around. I do agree with the Ethicist that the cheating partner should be given the chance to disclose first.
131
The issue is really about confidentiality. If someone confides in you, they need to know if you intend to break that confidentiality. If so, that gives them the option of not talking with you. It's a fundamental principle of clergy, mental health and physicians that the only way to get patients to "openly" talk to you is that they know it is safe. Otherwise they will not talk to you.
The only time you "violate" that code of silence is if murder is threatened, and HIV is involved, according to the law.
For other infectious diseases, one notified the Health Department and they handle it, not you.
13
@Keith The idea that threats of murder and HIV are the only things that should lead one to violate implicit trust simply doesn't work. It's easy to come up with other situations where the moral thing to do is to break someone's confidence. A cheating partner who admits to having contracted herpes (not HIV). Someone who confesses to having raped and murdered a child years ago. A friend who reveals his plan to gradually siphon away the joint assets from his marriage before abandoning their spouse.
In each of these cases (and many others) the moral harm of breaking confidence is much smaller than the moral harm of doing nothing. Nor should anyone be expected to enumerate all possible circumstances where they would break confidence in advance. Certain professionals are bound by law, but law is not the same as morality. As lay people, moral behavior is our highest obligation.
17
I'm not sure it's great advice to say the second letter writer should have been more direct in addressing the possible cognitive decline. When dementia begins to set in, the ability of the individual to recognize their own cognitive state is among the first things to go. So a direct confrontation is more likely to result in an ended friendship than in real progress. The letter writer was correct to approach it delicately, even if that didn't achieve results.
71
After more than a bit of suspicion of my own, but no proof, I was told by a near stranger about my medical-student-now-intern husband’s blatant disregard of our marriage vows and cried tears of relief. That was almost 35 years ago and I still remain grateful to her for giving me the facts I needed to change of course of my life. I divorced him and never looked back.
203
I'm a safety first person. If you know that a friend is placing his/her/their partner at risk for physical illness (std's), then I think you should provide just enough information for the oblivious partner to protect themselves from potential harm.
Very simple. Forget the complex/private emotional issue: I actually agree that inserting yourself in other people's relationships is not ethically mandated and may even be disrespectful (you don't know their life!). For example, alerting someone to a flirtation or emotional affair.
But drunkenly sleeping with multiple partners can and does put your partner at risk for physical illness/pain. That is totally unacceptable. His partner has a right to make a choice about whose bodily fluids she interacts with.
83
Years ago in the Chicago area, I had a long time customer who was showing signs of dementia. I only knew that she had a daughter who was married to a dentist in a small town in New England. I called the two dentists in town and found the daughter, told her what I knew, and she then alerted her sister who lived close to the mom. I never found out what happened after that as the customer never shopped again, but I had a clear conscience knowing I had done all I could to help her. Of course, I knew she had a good relationship with her children. It’s a gamble if you know the relative is estranged as others have mentioned.
93
"I spent many hours with them on the phone, helping them to work this out, and they got back together."
The above is busy-body behavior, with a presumption by the writer that they were in charge of managing a relationship between two other people. The writer's ill-advised disclosure of confidential information was simply an outgrowth of this attitude.
132
@JF Your reply presumes that the two people in the relationship were somehow forced into talking with this person. That is a stretch. Indeed, it sounds like the two friends were routinely using the letter writer more or less as their therapist. They put the letter writer in the middle. Now, of course, the letter writer could have politely declined their phone calls, or refused to listen to their relationship woes. However, that's probably not typically the case; most of us listen to our friends. When the friend told this man the secret, he was put in a terrible situation. I'm not saying that what the letter writer did was right--but by no means was it "busy body" behavior as far as I can see. Pity that the guy who did the sleeping around was unwilling to tell the truth to his partner and wanted a third party to carry his burden for him.
22
@NJJ
Well, no one can tell if they felt "forced" or not. But I can tell you from first-hand experience that they best path to follow when it comes to other people's relationships is to tread very lightly, and reserve judgement. If pressed by either he should have demurred and just said something like "you 2 need to work this out among yourselves". When the one party confessed, his best option was to entertain that person's thoughts, listen, and encourage them to seek professional help if they felt that was warranted. They should have also said "I will keep this in confidence, but I do hope you find a way to let your partner know, especially if you are sexually active." That's it. And if further pressed, "please let's agree to not intermingle your personal relationship concerns with our friendship, I'm sure you can understand that it's an unfair position to be put in as I am friends with both of you. And know I will support both of you and any decisions the 2 of you may make, with judging either or you." Done.
9
@JF
You are assuming that the mentor gratuitously inserted himself into the situation, as opposed to acting at the request of the mentee.
11
Regarding the first question: I believe everyone has the right to make informed decisions about their life. To put someone 's physical and emotional health through infidelity, and to unilaterally and deceptively alter the terms of a contract (a monogamous relationship) is unethical. It is a power play that is abusive in nature. This is not the type of relationship ideosyncrasy that one is best to stay out of and let the two partners sort out on their own. She is at a known disadvantage. He has effectively removed her agency within the relationship.
I would no sooner "stay out of it" with this situation than I would "stay out of it" if I knew he was physically beating her or engaging in financial embezzlement.
98
@Meaghan. Great commentary! Couldn’t have said it better myself.
7
@Meaghan
Yes. Thank you. Apt comparisons.
4
In my area just as there is a Child Protective Services agency there is also an Adult Protective services. These folks are skilled and experienced and enormously helpful in my experience. I was a physician and numerous times I was able to turn to them for help with patients who were not able to help themselves to the degree I felt was required by ordinary human compassion. I would try to reach out in this way to help her friend.
125
@Michael Banyai
Nearly all jurisdictions have Adult Protective Services. PLEASE contact them for the appropriate town. They have many resources and legally can intervene if necessary.
35
"Not long after, this young man confessed to me that, following their reconciliation, he engaged in sexual activity with several partners during a night of heavy drinking."
The way I read this, the accusations about pre-breakup infidelity were accurate, the infidelity continued both during and after the breakup, with "several" (from 3 to 300) partners, leaving the young man's supposedly valued partner at a high risk of an STD or worse. Isn't this kind of behavior that brought us AIDS?
Regardless of the mentorship/coaching/role modeling/time spent by the author, I'd dump the "young man" and find someone more worthy of my time.
82
@sarasotaliz
To be very clear, behavior didn't bring AIDS. HIV is a disease that can be transmitted through sex, sharing needles, nursing mothers, blood contact with an open wound. Behavior bringing a disease sounds punitive and shaming. The disease exists on it's own, it was not born from behavior.
16
@coco. True but it was spread by behavior.
6
I agree with the other comments warning to be extremely cautious about contacting the estranged relatives of someone in cognitive decline. I know a man who stripped the assets of two relatives, one with dementia, the other with terminal cancer.
59
@Wrytermom
I'd also be leery of Adult Protective Services. Aren't they the ones that can and in some cases do go before a judge and take over a declining person's life, including assets?
16
@JanO No , adult protective services does not do that. You are thinking of the Public Fiduciary, which can obtain guardianship/conservatorship over an incapacitated adult and then use their assets to put them into assisted living. APS mostly investigates reports of elder abuse/neglect.
15
It will not end well in either case. APS better than isolation and neglect.
8
To the first letter writer: when the betrayer told you of his betrayal, he did so with the knowledge that you are a conscientious person who would likely do with the information exactly what you did. Getting caught is what many people who cheat on partners, spouses, and children live for. It adds to the excitement, their feeling of importance, and places them centrally in a vortex of even more drama when their affairs are discovered. You did the right thing, you provided an opportunity for the partner to protect their emotional and sexual health and make decisions based on facts, not manipulated fantasy. Please don't waste another moment of your precious life doubting your decision. I wish someone had told me.
122
It is shocking that the guy in the first letter is surprised that the people aren't speaking to him anymore. What did he think was going to happen?
112
@Ben Carter
The guy in the first letter said nothing about surprise. It may be a result that he was willing to risk.
14
@Allan Marain
Why is he leaving them messages if he knew that they wouldn't speak to him anymore?
5
I appreciate the opinions of the commentators before me. I do have a different take on the circumstances. Both men had shared details of their troubled relationship with the writer and his wife. Did they do so for advice or just to air their dirty laundry? They invited the writer into their business by involving him in their relationship. I wish he hadn't taken the bait. The missed opportunity was the drinking issue. Had the writer chosen to intervene on that concern, he might have saved not only the relationship - but a young man's future.
19
@Patricia
He intervened to help the partner who didn't know about the infidelity.
If you know of some way to successfully intervene to help someone with a drinking "issue," please share. In my experience, the person with the "issue" can change only when they're ready.
27
LW1 talk about the lack of boundaries. How does one go from mentoring to opening these floodgates? Overloading onto another is not ethical, this confidant relationship is not ethical and blabbing about confidences is not ethical. My ethical concern would be for the health of the partner but wrong delivery.
11
@justme
You left out the unethical action that hurt everyone involved: the betrayal by the philandering partner.
7
Most big cities and many smaller municipalities have elder affairs staff that may be able to help with the friend who is exhibiting dementia. Look online at the website of the city or town where your friend lives.
30
I tried that with a relative - they out the name on a waiting list, wanted to deal directly with the elder with cognitive decline and would not contact me. Of course the phone call they made to the elder months later was met with denials. This is a hard thing to manage from a distance.
5
It sounds as if the young man in the first letter's drinking problem led to the sleeping around behavior. I don't know what I'd do, except perhaps write to the partner and suggest that this is the problem, rather than a lack of love, and hope that the friend gets help or somehow manages to stop drinking. The friendship may never be healed, or not for a long time, but in the long run, the message might sink in.
For the second letter, the dear friend may have good reason to stay away from her siblings. It would make more sense -- an be less intrusive -- to talk with her directly. If possible, even though she lives far away, a visit might be in order.
29
LW2 The friend almost certainly has dementia, a condition from which my wife suffers and is now in long term care.
The friend very likely is beyond the point that a conversation with her, regardless how direct, will be understood and acted on. There are too many cognitive steps involved. The LW needs to reach out to the sibling. The website recommendation is useful. The LW might also reach out to the Alzheimer's Association for information on dementia resources where here friend lives.
32
@John Collinge This is closer to a helpful and reasonable response. If a child wondered across a highway to appear in our yard unharmed, I would not want to send him back out in the hope that he would cross the highway back to his own home unharmed. It's of course hard to know what to do at his level, but nothng is not the better course for the well being of the friend.
13
I wonder why people think ethics come into inserting themselves into the affairs of others. First stay out of the relationships of others unless they are your close relatives (even then there is a massive risk). Same with the rest of the issues.
54
The writer of the first letter was in a difficult position but I do think the advice of discussing the issue with the man was the first step in making an ethical response. My experience in these matters is that the "injured party" often knows at some level what is going on and who is to say that a second relationship isn't functioning as a safety value for the first? These are not black & white matters. There are times when the most important thing is preserving the union however imperfect.
12
@CFB The "injured party" most often has no idea anything is going on. Saying they know on "some level" is blaming the victim. This is a justification cheaters and their friends use to justify their hidden betrayal. (Cheating is NOT the same thing as a true respectful open relationship where both partners choose additional relationships in the open with no secrets). When partners who are being cheated on suspect something they are gaslighted by the cheating partner. That's abuse.
I think the letter writer did the right thing. He doesn't mention it but I'm guessing he felt guilty about the fact that he helped them get back together and possibly participated in the young man's gaslighting of his partner without realizing it. Now the woman has the information to make her own choices about her relationship.
51
"There are times when the most important thing is preserving the union however imperfect."
No.
Even when there are children involved: no.
A bad marriage is not worth preserving at all costs. Divorce is hard on everyone involved, but so is dealing long-term with a partner's addiction and infidelity.
47
@Paula - Amen. I truly had no inkling that my partner was cheating on me for weeks, and think this popular fallacy (about people knowing on some level that something is afoot) is a very dangerous one, especially if it encourages people NOT to intervene in some way to help the vulnerable partner.
I wish the cultural conversation would shift to reflect the reality that intimate partner betrayal is emotionally abusive.
25
Involving the estranged sibling in the case with the woman in what looks like a slide into Dementia seems as if it might be a good idea in general, but what if she is estranged from this sibling because of them abusing or harming her somehow? Then the friend would lose all trust and credibility, leaving an already isolated woman feeling betrayed. If we shouldn’t get involved in people’s romantic relationships as other comments suggest, we even moreso shouldn’t get in the middle of people’s familiar relationships. People don’t enter into estrangement lightly.
67
_Perhaps human beings should just eschew all interpersonal relationships with others. That would solve the ethical probs. & save one from having to make decisions about whether to share comments made in confidence or not_. These ideas are bogus and impossible to maintain. If one mixes with other humans there will come a time when private info. is shared w/o an invitation to do so. I have a vow to myself to not let curiosity rule over reason. I am happy to tell friends " I have enough going on in my life that requires my full attention. Please, do not tell me anything in confidence or ask my advice". I have lost some friends from it ,which is fine with me,others have appreciated my clarity & honesty. The difficulty is refraining from sharing _my_ concerns with my friends, I have,however, been successful .
4
@Courtney It's possible the estrangement is because the sister is an unkind person. It's also possible that a person during the onset stage of mental illness will force an estrangement with people who wish to help them, simply because they don't like to believe that they are actually sick. I've seen both scenarios. I think the proper course of action is to try to seek out and have a conversation with the sister to assess which scenario was the likely one.
7
@Courtney. True, but it usually takes the "next of kin" to help make decisions for an incompetent person. That or throwing her to the mercy if a court appointed guardian. People without spouse or adult child need to make a guardianship document for themselves and give it to several trusted friends.
1
For the second letter regarding the friend with declining cognitive abilities, while age related decline may be the reason, the friend should consider that environmental factors play a role. Has the person experiencing the decline been exposed to toxins like nicotine or heavy metals? It's most likely loneliness or a cognitive impairment like Alzheimers but a doctor should order a complete blood work up to rule out other things.
19
I'm not sure I agree with the general consensus regarding the first letter writer's decision to share information about his mentee's womanizing with his mentee's partner. It seems clear the older man considered himself a friend to both parties. I was crushed to learn that my husband of almost 30 years, a man I thought was my best friend, had been living what he referred to as a "double life for a long long time," At the time I did learn of this, he had orchestrated a friendship between me and his new partner under false circumstances for purposes too chilling to get into. I am thankful to whatever gods may be that a friend of his, a complete stranger to me, obtained a recording, found me, and shared it with me, making it impossible for me to dismiss her as I would certainly have done. Because of this brave woman, who paid a social price, I got out of that marriage while I still had something left of myself and my life. I'm well over the man to whom I was married. What I will never get over is that every one of my friends and family members who knew of the situation, and it was most of them (although they did not know of this shocking twist near the end) saw fit to keep this information from me. It was one thing to lose a husband of 30 years. It was quite another to learn I hadn't had a single real friend. My grandmother used to say "tell the truth and shame the devil." I think she was onto something. Speak out.
328
@Charlie Clarke
I feel your pain. Yes, the fact that I didn't have a friend who respected me enough to tell me what was going on behind my back left wounds that will never heal.
50
I disagree. If you didn't pay enough attention to your marriage of 30 yrs. to know something was wrong then I would suggest you knew(deep down) & didn't want to face the truth.@Charlie Clarke
It is _never_ the duty of a "friend" to narc' on the cheating partner, for any reason. My mom use to say,"There ,but for the grace of god, go I". Which meant, mind your own business.
5
@tam2128 Oh how wrong you are! You have never met these people and you say it was something that could have been observed. It definitely can happen that someone is unaware. I had a long marriage--there were no signs..Example we were at a party and someone I didn't know approached me and asked if I was married to the man across the room. I said yes--she replied, " he looks at you with such love I had to tell you". A year or so after we decided to adopt a baby from a foreign country. At this point we were married for 20 years. My husband said not to worry that we could do it--bring a child into a loving home. It took two years to finalize the adoption. Three months after bringing our son home, my husband told me he wanted a divorce. Don't presume to know how others are living their lives.
31
For the first letter writer, the advice is (or would have been) simple:
"Mind your own business."
It's some of the oldest, simplest advice around, it's something the letter writer, in spite of "advanced years," probably heard from Mother's own lips, and it's always correct.
66
I think Mr. Appiah missed the boat on first letter. The letter writer has no moral imperative or other entitlement to tell everyone everything he knows. He assumed responsibility for managing another person's intimate affairs, using information that was shared with him based on the obvious expectation that it would remain private.
71
@Oxo Whitney Actually, there is a moral imperative.
Heavy drinking and indiscriminate sexual activity puts his partner at direct risk of any number of STDs and AIDS.
How would you feel to receive a diagnosis of AIDS and know that those who could have prevented such a devastating diagnosis kept the knowledge of such risky behavior to themselves?
20