Once again the Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot.
Maybe I should say, other foot.
They have drawn a line in the sand about the wall and I totally agree. The money, if it needs to be spent on Border Security, should be spent on agile technology, which can be changed when necessary without continuing to maintain a 2000 mile wall. The argument should stop there, not become an issue of the number of beds. Keep it up and we will really be held accountable for a shutdown.
They are also shooting themselves in both feet by not allowing themselves to be who they are as individuals. Take the Venezuela issue. By jumping down the throats of congresspersons who speak in favor of ousting Maduro; because they haven't been nimble enough to come out with a policy, they are making the actions of Trump in getting rid of an illegal and immoral dictator as something the Democrats are against. Quit pandering to a demographic and let us see who you are and think as individuals. Then we can make better decisions come election day.
How can they be so pro-immigrant for those from the South and ignore freeing the Venezuelan people from a vicious overlord?
Why do you, the NY Times, write an article such as the one on Venezuela, and the Dem's worried about having the rescued Venezuelan's become Republicans, and not allow comments?
5
An intelligent,responsible ,reasonable leader would back down on "the wall" at this point .
The problem is that:
(1) Trump is an unstable immature man ;
(2) the REAL reason for "the wall" is to prevent his followers from dumping him;
(3) he wants a tasteless,tacky monument to himself with T-R-U-M-P on top in mile high fake gold letters with flashing lights.
1
Indeed, there are many who believe that:
"The real tragedy is that there are people who really believe this vanity wall will solve the problem."
Some of those "believers" are really smart, too.
3
TSA workers are planning a massive 'sick out' on the day the next government shut down begins. No TSA workers means airports CLOSE. Trump better think again if he is contemplating another ridiculous government shut down. Trump will also be shutting down American airports. Trump simply needs to tell his good friends Rush and Ann the pesky 'separation of powers' in the US Constitution is preventing him from funding another of his useless campaign promises.
1
Alexander Hamilton begins the 2nd essay of the Federalist Papers by stating government is indispensable. It is.
But government does not exist without federal employees.
Without federal employees there is no boarder security, no military, no Justice Department, no Social Security, no Medicare, no Medicaid, no food safety and so much more.
Trump is only the latest Republican to play games with federal employee lives, for their incomes support spouses and children, pay medical bills as well as the costs of food, clothing and housing.
As was driven home in the 35-day Trump shutdown, millions of other Americans are hurt when federal employees are treated as slaves, working without pay. Small business suffer, contractors suffer, the public suffers the loss of services, the nation suffers the humiliation of an incompetent would-be tyrant.
If you are not outraged by Republicans treating federal employees as dirt, you are not American. Alexander Hamilton would tell you to go find a monarchy like Saudi Arabia or a H-hole like Russia to live in. Because in America we value a democratic republic and our fellow citizens who serve it.
3
The Democrats will be seen as the problem if this thing goes to another shut-down. Negotiation means giving something to get something and Democrats got a big something last go-round. The Wall argument was easy to understand. I do not think that is true of the limitation-of-detention-spots issue.
7
"Open the gates"; "Lock the gates"...
Most of us would agree that neither is a good solution. The best solution to whatever border problems there are: Convene a small group of people who understand what these problems are, and who have the intellectual resources to design a rational solution to them. With no offense to Congress nor to the President, that small group must include people with technical understanding and people with understanding of day-to-day problems at the border. It also must contain a few people who have an understanding of the ecology of the region near the border.
"Build a wall" is not the solution. Selective reinforcement of some physical barriers in some places, yes; but building a wall that effectively cedes a great deal of territory back to Mexico, as would happen if we walled off the Rio Grande, for instance, would be counterproductive and, into the bargain, an environmental disaster. What is needed is a combination of modern surveillance technology at ports of entry and perhaps elsewhere, along with other measures.
As to drug traffic: It would help a great deal, of course, if demand for illegal narcotics were reduced in this country. Why bring in cocaine, for example, if there is no demand?
We can dream, can't we?
1
Poor Trump has precious little experience running an enterprise where he is accountable to a co-equal body that can act as a check on his impulses. Note that the very few times he has actually been accountable to a board, it is been a disaster. And here he is now, completely unable to comprehend that Congress has the power of the purse and can dictate to him the terms by which public money is spent. Unfortunately, as he resists a much-needed civics lesson, hundreds of thousands if not millions of Americans suffer.
2
This new problem could be solved easily:
For every hour that a solution is not reached, select a republican and a democrat, censure them for incompetence, bar their entrance to the House and Senate, and stop their salaries, without possibility of makeup funds.
1
I, for one, do not think that government workers will allow themselves to once again be pawns in an argument over the construction of Trump's unnecessary and wasteful spite fence. Instead it will be FAA, TSA and IRS employees who will shut down the country.
1
Why are the people from South America and Mexico arriving at our borders called illegal aliens? They are doing nothing illegal. As required by law they are showing up at a legal border entry point to ask for asylum. Calling them illegal is feeding into Trump's fear mongering. We should call them what they are which is asylum seekers.
Instead of spending so much money on a useless and ill-conceived border wall we should spend money on safe asylum/refugee centers where the people arriving at our borders seeking asylum can be processed efficiently. Most should just be given a court date to show up for a hearing. Almost all immigrants (90+%) show up for their court date. If they do not show up for their court date or do not claim asylum at the border then call them illegal.
3
Some comments:
1. Just plain dopey is the thought that the “wall” is needed to protect troops deployed by Trump. If they need “protection” from unarmed foreign civilians just move the troops back from the border a few miles. Otherwise, I think they can conduct a fire fight against “hostiles” without hiding behind a wall, which won’t be ready for a few years if at all.
2. Spending already authorized MCA funds on the wall will take years to accomplish. How long does the President think he will need the national emergency act to be in place in order for him to “find” the money he is looking for? Based on what appropriations have been passed, he is going to find most of the funds he plans to pillage are in the DoD. I bet that makes those “senior’ officials you mentioned earlier real happy.
I just don't get it. Americans keep electing clowns to represent them and can't understand why their government is ran like a circus. How is that suppose to work?
2
If we have another shutdown it will because democrats insisted on "catch-and-release" which is what happens when illegal immigrants are captured but released because they have not committed a serious crime.
In other words, democrats insisted on turning every city into a "sanctuary city". Hard to understand why they would do this except to kill the deal.
6
Please Democrats and Republicans of common sense, stand your ground. Any kind of wall will be harmful to natural resources, ranchers, farmers, and others who depend on the Rio Grande for their water. Offer Trump a compromise: once he has the paperwork completed (and the lawsuits settled) on stealing land that belongs to American citizens, then consider the funding. Until that is accomplished, there is no reason to fund anything other than additional Border Patrol units and decent living arrangements for his "prisoners".
3
The "polls" tell the story. The Democrat Party will not budge an inch as long as they think the polls support their position. It's all about winning every federal election in 2020. 100% House. 100% Senate. 100% White House. #resist. Investigate, Indict, Impeach. NEVER TRUMP.
3
Read the NYT story,
all you supposedly literate pro-open-borders NYT story:
The hang-up now is not Trump and the Wall.
The hang-up now is funding for detention beds.
Dems are showing their True Colors:
-- de facto pro-open-borders --
despite their disingenuous claims
that they are not pro-open-borders.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck,
it is a duck:
Dems consistently and obstinately obstruct nearly every measure for serious "migration" control,
from strong border control and enforcement
to strong interior control and enforcement.
Dems obstinately obstruct, tooth and nail,
nearly every measure
not only to prevent border crossers from entering
but also detention facilities to prevent border crossers--
and also visa overstayers --
from running free in the interior once they gain entry.
S.O.P. for the Dems.
btw. In the past, GOP water-carriers for the pro-cheap-labor business crowd have joined the Dems in Un Holy Alliance
to sell America down the river into open borders.
One thing Trump deserves credit for:
He has pushed the GOP water carriers for the pro-cheap labor business crowd (the Bushes among others), to the GOP sidelines.
Let's hope that that is a structural change to the GOP,
regardless of what happens in this particular imbroglio.
5
@sam finn
Rep. Senator Rob Portman just introduced a bill to strengthen e-verify. Republicans are getting ahead of democrats on immigration.
5
@AACNY
Where were the Republicans for the past two years?
4
@AACNY
Good news.
1
The Democrats where all for constructing the wall before Trump was elected. They voted for the funding of the 700 miles of fencing that has already been built and supported. They touted support for stopping illegal immigration and even voted to create ICE. This is not an anti-wall stance on the part of the Democrats, it's simply an anti-Trump stance. The Democrats won't budge on that, so no deal will be agreed upon. I suspect Trump will invoke the National Emergency Powers provisions and let the legal sparks fire away.
8
Illegal immigrants have a negative impact on the wages of low skilled workers, especially young black men in construction and food processing according to a US Civil Rights commission report. https://www.usccr.gov/pubs/docs/IllegImmig_10-14-10_430pm.pdf
7
Americans are under tremendous scrutiny, SS#, insurance, ..etc. Why immigrants have the freedom to roam this country incognito??? Anonymity is proven to be a gate for criminality. Having a WALL allows us to know who is coming and going out of this country. It allows identification, accountability, responsibility and rights to those who enter. By having an identity as an immigrant you would actually have rights as a human, otherwise as an incognito "illegal" you are more likely to be abused and exploited, which I believe that is what those opposing the wall are concerned about, since there would be a set standard for minimum wages for all who reside in USA.
6
@Yvonne
“Anonymity is proven to be a gate for criminality.”
That may well be true, Yvonne, but anonymity is also a human right.
Imagine how well it would serve law enforcement officials if a Global Positioning System chip was embedded in the skin on the back of every American citizens’ neck. The police would be able to keep track of where everyone is ALL of the time. Also, where everyone was all of the time, like the time at which a violent crime occurred.
Think of how this could aid detectives in criminal investigations.
Think of how it could aid tyrants in controlling dissent.
We already have GPS chips in our cell phones. Why not in our bodies?
Someday, I might be an illegal immigrant. So I want to keep my anonymity intact. Every thinking person should. The same ability to move anonymously from place to place that aids bank robbers, protects environmentalists.
3
There is a great deal of diversity in the different faiths that have emerged around the world. I’ve read that a common thread runs through every major religion on this planet. They all teach some form of what Christans call the Golden Rule.
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
As I read these comments, I am amazed at the malice and inhumanity contained in some of them. Some commenters are advocating mass deportation and making it impossible for an undocumented immigrant to find work.
Can’t you imagine being in the position in which many of these law-abiding, hard-working people found themselves in their native land?
I sincerely doubt that most of the people who wrote those harsh comments would treat a lost dog with as little regard as they wish on those who “snuck across our border.”
Donald Trump is the Great Divider. He sows discord and hatred, and does so to distract us all from the corruption of his administration, the criminality in his financial dealings and the squandering of huge amounts of federal tax dollars. Huge deficits.
“Don’t look at me. Look at those illegals. They’re getting food stamps. They’re getting health care.
“Hate them! Turn on them.
“Don’t investigate me. There’s an emergency! A crisis on our southern border!
“Repel the invaders.”
Many of the “invaders” are simply desperate human beings looking to escape a nightmarish existence.
Put yourself in their place, if you’re able.
What would you do for yourself and your family?
2
@Tom W
The world has seven billion people --
rapidly approaching eight billion.
Half of them in dire poverty or other dire straits.
Just let them all in.
Hundreds of millions would come.
Olly olly oxen all in free.
Import into the USA
the wildly overcrowded, overpolluted
conditions of Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Rio de Jineiro,
Dakka, Mumbai, Kolkatta, Jakarta, Manila, Lagos, Cairo, etc.
3
@Tom What about the construction worker who gets $25 an hour, is trying to support a family, and who finds that illegals are willing to take his job for $10/hr.
You said, "Put yourself in their place, if you’re able.
What would you do for yourself and your family?"
So I ask you to put yourself in his place. What if it were your job that was being compromised? How much would you be willing to deprive your family of in order to support your position?
3
@sam finn. Stop using numbers to make your point. The left is counting on emotional appeals to mask the fact that their policies will make over the u.s. into a third world paradise like most of the countries supplying our never ending supply of immigrants.
2
Given the severity of the situation, I hope everyone is working overtime on this. After all, they are getting paid to do their jobs.
What an irony if the people who are getting paid can’t get the job done, yet if there is a shutdown people who will not be getting paid for their work with their expected paychecks will get their jobs done.
The never ending gift of hypocrisy.
4
Nancy Pelosi is clapping for the camera same way Hillary shimmied for it after the 2nd debate. Both beam with pride and confidence while doing it. Where is Clinton today? Same place Pelosi will be in 2020. Thanks Dems for guaranteeing another 4 years to MY President.
7
There is going to be a deal. The hard stuff always come last in any negotiation. Obviously the focus will be that ICE should focus on criminals. That will be what the Rs give. Th Dems will agree to more beds and/or more money for barriers,
All this posturing since Friday is Public relations.
1
The NYT " Congressional efforts to reach a border security deal ahead of another government shutdown broke down on Sunday over Democratic demands to limit the detention of undocumented immigrants"
More Correct reporting " Congressional efforts to reach a border security deal ahead of another government shutdown broke down on Sunday over NEW , UNPRECEDENTED Democratic demands to limit the detention of undocumented immigrants to (NUMBER) "
7
Dig in your heels Nancy, trump is afraid of you.
4
If the democrats can't fund the government, they need to be voted out in 2020...the wall is just 1/10th of 1% of the total federal budget...that's like what the average person spends on coffee at Starbucks out of their own yearly budget...the democrats don't deserve to be in the government if they don't fund the wall that the president is asking for...our country is being overrun by illegal immigrants that put a financial strain on our schools, housing, health care, and economy...this whole mess is completely on the democrats and Pelosi for their failure and stubbornness to give money to the president to keep out the illegal invaders...the president is not at fault if the government is shut down again...
6
@ORnative
Ditto for detention beds.
1
I cannot understand the objection to a physical barrier on our national southern border where the geography makes such possible., Those who object may have never been south of the Mason-Dixon line or are just taken in by the talking points of those who want unlimited immigration.
Reasonable people ought to agree on the 4 points of the Administration's immigration reform package - modified as necessary in a Congressional conference committee. Unreasonable people are simply party bureaucrats who could care less about the United States of America.
5
@jrgfla
Let's see if you can understand this :
1- The " Wall " is a political prop being used by " The President who shouldn't be President " to represent his power and ability to get things done for his right wing support .
2- No Wall could ever prevent illegal Immigration and doing so would be a tremendous waste of time.
3- Immigration has been declining since 2006 .
4- If the Government wanted to stop the last flood of Illegal Immigrants or future illegal migration all it had to do was minimally enforce existing laws to stop small businesses and homeowners from evading taxes and breaking laws . They didn't because business did not want them to and benefitted tremendously by this low cost labor.
So, building a wall would be a tremendous waste of money and is not necessary .
2
@VB
Of course I meant evading taxes and breaking laws by hiring Illegal Aliens in the first place. Prosecuting just a small number of law breakers is all that is necessary . No work no illegal Immigration . The Wall as a solution is one of the stupidest ideas ever proposed .
1
Another shutdown is imminent, because no way is either party willing to compromise. "The Wall" is foolhardy and wasteful, but Trump's insistence upon it (and Republicans and their die-hard supporters backing him) will bring us to stalemate once again. It seems there is no avoiding another shutdown.
1
@Victoria Galvin...If "The Wall" is foolhardy, then Chuck and Nancy should demand that it be torn down. The Democrat Party has normalized hypocrisy.
5
The perverse racism that runs like a polluted river through these inhumane policies will not survive scrutiny. The criminalization of refugees and subsequent abuse and neglect of refugees is the actual crisis. The idea that a man such as Trump, who vomits out the distopian visions of Steven Miller and the like and is still running around under the auspices of the presidency, represents one of the most outrageous states of the union that this country has ever seen or endured.
4
Some comments:
1. Trump plans to move 5900++ active military troops to reinforce border security. Sounds like an impending US military atrocity against unarmed foreign civilians that is waiting to happen.
2. “Senior officials worry over loss of regular training and who backfills work on regular military duties of the 5900++ in an active force of somewhere around one and a half million sounds downright wimpy. Something you might hear from a disgruntled junior officer after a couple of drinks at the O-Club.
3. Limiting the number of immigrants inside the US and crossing the border that can be stacked up in jail is a policy fight and has nothing to do with a wall or funding remaining departments. The terror actions that the Trump government has conducted against immigrants residing in the US is an issue that is bigger than how much funds should go to ICE and border security programs.
4. Shelby and Tester, a couple of the seniors in the room, need to “kick” the juniors into a deal.
3
Trump has walled himself in by promising this boondoggle of a white elephant to his paranoid base. The $5.7 billion isn't the total cost, rather it's only the down payment on the total cost. It is off the wall to spend money on a wall that would serve little real purpose, other than glorify Trump's ego, and reward his friends in the construction business who'd actually build the thing.
2
It doesn’t matter. Net immigration could be a negative number and Trump’s deranged cult would still want a wall. Although if that were the case, many of them likely would turn their attention inward and start looking for nonwhites/non-Christians/non-conservatives to persecute and/or annihilate. They’ve already started in Pittsburgh, Charleston, Charlottesville and Kentucky.
2
Shame on our Leadership ! Shame on the major media outlets for being mouthpieces for whatever rhetoric Politicians choose to promote no matter how wrong !
As bad as the last shutdown that caused financial hardship for millions of people for no good reason was it offered unequivocal proof that " A Government By The People For The People " is one of the greatest and most powerful lies ever told . Yet , they have the gall to be considering doing it again .
Politics and Politicians and their mouthpiece the major media remain the biggest problem we and the World face . All of them should be booted out of Office and we need to find a way to get representation that is not beholden to big business and the Wealthy .
Shame on the writers for being part of the problem instead of reporting the truth .
3
Trump the Trump! The Nation says: NO WALL.
1
Does it occur to anyone else that there is no crisis on our southern border? No emergency. No caravans of diseased, violently criminal, drug-dealing human-traffickers approaching from the south!
It’s just one more distraction
We have a unnerved guilt-ridden president who will do everything and anything to keep the spotlight off his finances, his corrupt administration, his relations with corrupt foreign leaders and businessmen.
“Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!”
Everyone who buys into the hysteria that Trump is working to generate is doing our country a disservice.
Trump’s $1.5 trillion tax cut, nearly all of which benefits the rich. His $200 billion escalation of annual defense spending. Feeding our alteady out-of-control military-industrial complex. His attempts to restart the Cold War arms race. Trillions of tax dollars wasted. Money the government doesn’t even have.
“Don’t pay attention to the hundreds of billions of dollars I’m passing out over here. Keep your eyes on the illegals. They’re stealing all the taxes you’re paying!”
How silly can people be?
“Let’s worry about a Honduran family of illegal immigrants getting food stamps, and pay no mind to a president who’s throwing money around like deficit spending is a joke.”
There is no border emergency.
The current crisis is in the White House.
4
How the Neue Zuericher Zeitung, neutral Switzerland's leading newspaper reports it
"New Democratic demands make a second shutdown likely again
From next Saturday threatened in the US again a partial standstill of the administration. While the White House signals some flexibility in financing a wall on the southern border, Democrats are suddenly demanding that the number of illegal immigrants detained be limited."
(Google Translated)
There's something to be said for reading foreign newspapers
3
@Le Carre...Some folks in America think The Times and Jeff's Post are foreign papers.
2
Trump has already made up his mind and will declare a state of emergency. He's not acting like someone who wants to negotiate in good faith (something I doubt he's ever done in his entire life).
His goal is to use immigration to further divide us and shore up his base. He's not interested in governing or fixing the nation's problems. All this cruel and ignorant man cares about is himself.
3
Members of Congress represent and are accountable to American citizens not illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants should have a legal claim to stay if they are seeking asylum and perhaps a moral claim to stay if they were bought here as children, otherwise they have no standing under current US law. Congress may want to legislate more liberal immigration laws, but that would be a constitutionally determined and publicly accountable, procedural process. We cannot allow illegal immigrants to establish de facto laws that protect themselves and to which the US government must adhere, no matter how hardworking they may be. The fact that they are breaking immigration laws contradicts de jure the claim that they are "law abiding." I have great sympathy for the economic struggles and injustices that illegal immigrants face, nevertheless, these issues should be addressed through the rule of law as well as though foreign policy and aid.
23
@ZA
“...otherwise they have no standing under current US law.”
Current U.S. law recognizes HUMAN RIGHTS.
Illegal immigrants are human beings.
As such, they have have rights which must be recognized.
This provides undocumented or illegal immigrants with standing under the law, as have all human beings within the borders of the United States, its territories and possessions.
6
NYTimes currently has an op ed on site from one Daniel Denvir, who argues that the current wall be dismantled and the border be ‘demilitarised’. Basically a completely open porous border. Comments have not been enabled - funny that.
This is not what the majority of [legal] American voters want. It’s insanity.
Yet Daniel uses words like ‘majority’ and selectively uses a whole slew of opinion poll statistics to bolster his case. Then you realize he is talking about DEMOCRATS, as if they are the only voters.
If Daniel is to be believed, all that is necessary is to convince Democrats that the policy of an open border is the only ‘moral choice’ and somehow that’s it - everything else will follow.
Democrats and the left, together with their MSM cheerleaders are polarizing even harder left, not to the centre. Overall, American voters are going to become increasingly alarmed.
Trump is virtually guaranteed a second term. Think about that.
5
@Marco Polo No politicians are advocating for an ooen border. Trump squeeked by on racist fears and phony populism. He has been a complete failure as President. He fooled enough people in the midwest but he’s not going to get them again because he hasn’t delivered. A recession or at least a significant downturn is inevitable before the election. He’ll get 35% (his base) and Reublicans will lose the Senate and the Presidency.
1
“Basically a completely open porous border.”
700 miles of wall and fence already in place.
16,000 border patrol agents guard the border.
Plus, our stop-investigating-me guilt-ridden president has sent 8,000 troops to heighten the illusion of emergency.
Trump needs us to focus on something other than his crimes and corruption.
Emergency! Crisis!
Really, Marco?
“completely open porous border”???
Really?
How does your denial of facts bolster your argument? Sixteen thousand border patrol agents!
3
These immigrants come to the U.S. primarily to escape problems in their native countries (Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama) which includes a stagnant economy, high levels of crime, political corruption and widespread drug use. There is a legal way to request a green card to enter the U.S., however unlawful mobs entry is not allowed. Shame and disgrace of all these central American countries and their governments who fail to feed their people, to give them medical care, good housing, and jobs. These central American countries and their governments are the ones at fault.
Sorry that your country does not love you anymore. To find true love you need to find and walk on God’s Holy road which will one day open the gate to His Kingdom in Heaven. The road you are currently walking is man made and will only bring you tears and despair, darkness and regrets.
2
Now Democrats are demanding a "cap" be put on the number of detention beds allowed for ICE, to 16500. ICE currently has over 35,000 illegal immigrants being detained. The idea is this would force ICE to prioritize detaining only those with criminal records, reign in their dehumanizing protocol for arresting illegal immigrants.. If we reach our cap, then they are set free. This is just their way of Abolishing ICE.
Seriously how can anyone defend this? Even CNN is suggesting Democrats are overplaying their hand, and are going too far.
Imagine the police arrest someone for a crime, but have to let them go because Democrats put a cap on the number of folks they are allowed to detain?? Its madness.
Welcome to the New Democrat Party. The Party of open borders and socialism.
6
I doubt if anyone agrees that everyone apprehended at the border should get a free pass. I don’t feel the need for a barrier across our southern border is required. During recent history the influx of illegal entries has gone down. Largely because our current president has not filled judicial posts the amount of time to get them out of the country has increased. In my opinion more (especially families and children) could be housed could be more cheaply and humanely in alternative settings. Using trumps 0 tolerance rule requiring deportation of every undocumented alien our country would stop functioning due to labor shortages and the total cost.
A TRAC report is the best source of figures that I found. It breaks down the reason people were in ICE facilities into 4 groups and lists the amount of time they resided in the US. The link is: https://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/530/
Maybe I could not find it…I would like to see a breakdown of the offenses for those living here 5 to 10 plus years. I suspect it may be the basis for Democrats argument for limiting ICE beds.
To the Republican Senators: You can prove you're sane by creating a bill with a veto-proof 2/3rds majority vote on the legislation that comes before you, or just dissolve the Republican party now that a corrupt know-nothing birther by the name of Trump has branded you his.
2
If I was in the smuggling business, I'd be smiling at the absurd distraction along the southern border, and bringing in my containers along the northern border and all ports of entry on all three coasts. Salad days!
3
What truly makes me sick are the Americans that are completely okay which trampling over the rights of their fellow border state citizens. As someone from Texas, I keep asking myself, "Are we shouting into a well?" We keep saying there is no need for this kind of hysteria regarding our southern border. People are begging their fellow Americans for help as the federal government is/working towards seizing private property, destroying wildlife preserves and threatening whole communities' economies. The states' news are talking about this but not so much the national ones. How can these people screaming for the wall not get that this will hurt us financially - since that is what most they seem to care about. Why aren't Americans listening to elected officials like Will Hurd or Beto O'Rourke? Ever heard of bringing a nuke to a knife fight? From the screaming, you would think Pancho Villa is alive and well again.
47
@Night
Well said.
Will Hurd, moreover, is a Republican, representing the district with the longest southern border (Texas, 800 miles).
ALL House Reps representing southern border districts oppose a wall, as does the vast majority of Senators representing southern border states (only two of them support a wall, one of them being Lyin' Ted).
And the four-star Generals that Trump hired and kept in his cabinet for almost two years (Sec. of Defense Mattis and Chief of Staff Kelly) have publicly admitted that from a purely technical point of view, a wall is NOT the most effective way to protect the southern border.
Measures that have proven to work are the current walls and fences, AND when it comes to ways to improve border security, measures such as additional border patrol agents, e-verify (which would have penalized people like Trump, who massively hire undocumented people), drones etc.
All those measures (40,000 additional BP agents, on top of the 18,000 already at the southern border) are included in Obama's 2013 bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill. WHO refused to allow a vote on that bill until now, even though in 2013 it passed in the Senate with a 68-vote super-majority? The GOP House.
And today, instead of FINALLY getting serious about strengthening the southern border, they took the unprecedented decision to even no longer pay BP agents, threaten to do so next week again, AND betray their own base by claiming that a wall is needed.
6
My copy of the Constitution clearly states that spending originates in the House. That would be Congress, not the White House. The Constitution also clearly states that the power to veto legislation rests with the President, not the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell. A 2/3 majority in the House and Senate is required to override a Presidential veto. If there is a shut down the two people responsible will be McConnell and Trump.
3
Military strategy, divide the populace, deploy troops away from main population areas, coordinate chaos, create division among leaders and then stride in. Never divide military forces. The incompetent Generals who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan are now the Pretend King Trump's willing and unwilling minions. The Border Wall is useless but spending other people's money, ours, is the Pretend King Trump's mojo, "he likes it". The Pawns are government workers and us. If another shutdown happens, do we finally scrap this government and start over again? An idea, yet we are too busy trying to live off the crumbs the GOP leaves behind for us. If only Mueller could talk, how much longer do we have to wait? In we knew, we would give PKT the money with a clause to get out of it, so we can have stability back then we can show him the door.
I'm surprised I haven't heard one voice from our government talk about the reason the migrants are coming to our country in the last few weeks. I did hear a little about it before the shut down. That's the root of the problem.
Now well spent and monitored aid to the countries we helped destroy for various reasons beginning with the red scare and continuing until today might go a long way to helping solve the problem. The key is developing programs that actually help the citizens and not US interests directly.
Good luck to all we need it
2
Why is it SO important to turn the US into Latin America?
Who voted for this policy?
The Democratic policy is no wall, no deportations, no detentions, no reservation of public benefits for citizens only, and in some municipalities no restriction of voting to citizens.
How is any of this good for American citizens?
If I had wanted to live in a Latin American country I would have moved to one--after asking permission first. What is so criminal and horrible about liking the country as it was circa 1995 or so?
9
The same Democrat representatives in Congress who are voting against a border wall today were overwhelmingly in favor of funding border walls and fences when Obama was president. Their hatred for Trump is so great that they are willing to sacrifice border security and the rule of law in order to prevent the wall from being built. This is what the Democrat party has come to today.
7
The fact that the largest opioid drug busts have been at tightly guarded border crossings proves that they're not entering the U.S. across the hundreds of miles of border where border patrols drive by twice a night.
1
So you apparently have close contacts with the drug cartels and they have told you that they prefer to try to cross at heavily guarded locations? How much did they say they are sneaking in at unguarded locations?
1
Trump has been predicting this. He never wanted to reach a deal.
1
I don't believe there is a "border security" crisis at all. And, Democrats shouldn't agree with Republicans and Trump that heavy border security is needed just so they can seem reasonable in a debate. I live in a fairly large city that has thousands of immigrants from all over the world and many from Mexico. In my everyday life I never experience any downside to having immigrants in the community, whether they have documentation or not. I do experience many upsides, though. I suspect the existing laws are probably effective and would work even better if they were fairly and properly enforced (not using them to separate 7-year olds from their parents, for instance). The U.S. is faced with many serious problems but a lack of border security is not really one the most pressing ones.
27
@Tim The reason you may not see a downside to illegal immigration is because you are presumably white and at least middle class. The impact of illegal immigration is felt primarily by our low income minorities. They bear the burdens of compromised affordable housing inventories, educational and medical facilities, and a reduction in wages, which by some estimates is about $1,000 a year. If illegal workers took $1,000 a year out of your pocket, you might have a different perspective.
3
@Tim. So can we assume you don't pay property taxes of have kids in a public school or ever visit a hospital or an ER? You must not drive public roads either. All these places and issues and many more are negatively associated with the crowding and expense of our huge mostly poor, immigrant populations. Try this experiment. Open the door to your house and let ever more people come into the finite space that is your home. This is what is happening to our cities and other communities as we stuff more and more people into the same area. China is about our size and latitude. It has three x our population. Does anyone think that could possible be a road we want to go down? Think I'm kidding? The u.s population has more than doubled in my lifetime. It's happening right now.
4
The negotiators need to show some spine and approve the following common sense deal that is fair to all:
1) Allocate $20 billion to improved border security and improved human services at the border in accordance with the recommendations of the border immigration professionals;
2) Approve permanent status for the Dreamers and ten years of stability for immigrants on temporary status.
For a Republic like ours to survive it's necessary for our legislators in Congress to dis-enthrall themselves from mob pressures on the right and left and act in the best interests of our country. Make the deal and move on to repairing the nation's infrastructure which is falling to pieces.
2
Then Congress should not get paid during the next shutdown. They had one job to do, and if they don’t do it, they don’t get paid. They’re big on pay for performance; well, here’s their chance to walk the walk.
2
the cost of trump's golf, rallies and family travel would pay for his wall and then some.
6
This plays right into the petulant child's hands. He becomes center stage again and the media, that's you NYT along with the rest, will put four or five articles every day on the front page! You elected him, now do something about djt.
2
You can't print what I think about this.
4
My message to Congresshumans on the committee: STOP BEING STUPID. Negotiate responsibly and thoughtfully. Pretend you are serving the country for once. I am so very, very tired of this.
2
The President bellowed, "Is there a plan
To repel these amigos--this caravan?
Five or ten--I suppose
We can shove away those
But a hundred, two hundred--they SCARE a man!"
1
Our president is a weak, lazy man. He lets Stephen Miller and Ann Coulter humiliate him into submission. Very weak. And the GOP in Congress are bleating sheep. The Republican shameful behavior continues.
6
As stupid as the wall is, if the Dems take too hard a line, they lose the opportunity to position themselves as a party that can govern. Most people in this country are looking for leaders in DC to compromise and find a way to make things happen. Most people in this country believe that the wall is a bad idea....so the Dem position is that they are willing to give in a little bit ( 1.7B) to save the country from another Trump induced shutdown. It is time for cooler heads and not for ideologues(see the Tea Party).
17
@R
With all respect, I couldn't disagree more.
1. Democrats have proven time and again that they are willing to compromise ... WHEN they loose elections. They even compromise when they win elections (Obamacare was merely Romneycare, for instance).
2. This time, the GOP took the totally unprecedented decisions to start using border patrol agents' paychecks as bargaining chips. In most Western countries, that's simply ILLEGAL, for obvious reasons (it's the Executive branch of government's constitutional duty to execute/implement already existing law, also during moments when Congress can't agree on a new law project).
IF Democrats would accept to negotiate during or under threat of a government shutdown, Trump and the GOP will do this time and again, as soon as they want to pass a bill that they can't pass because as they lost the elections, they don't have the votes anymore. And then within a year, we won't have any border patrol agents anymore, as their job insecurity will have become so gigantic that they can't feed their family anymore.
THAT is what the current fight is all about. It's about attaching new and highly partisan law projects to a mere appropriations bill (= bill that funds the implementation of ALREADY existing law for the next year). IF we want good governance, then whether you support a wall or not is totally irrelevant here, the FIRST thing to force the GOP to do is to go back to passing clean appropriations bills. THEN talks about new laws can begin.
2
Isn't most of the border private property? I highly doubt that most supporters of a physical border barrier are in favor of eminent domain. The Democrats should propose a subsidy package for those private landowners who WANT a wall on there property; $5.7 billion in subsidies for a percentage of the total cost for private construction on private property.
2
That's not how national security policy works.
It's not people around airports who decide what protects airports best, it's national security experts studying all available options and evidence.
So either we want evidence-based national security, or there will be no real security at all.
And for years already, ALL national security experts (including the four-star Generals in Trump's own cabinet, and his new chief of staff) have shown that a full wall is NOT the most effective way to protect the southern border, the CURRENT wall is (when it comes to walls).
What is needed now are much more border patrol agents (not troops, as troops have neither the authority nor training required to deal with border security problems in times of peace), e-verify, drones etc.
And those measures are already included in Obama's 2013 bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill - bill that thanks to his strong interest in national security and policy details, combined with his outstanding negotiating skills, already passed in the Senate in 2013 by a 68-vot super-majority.
Unfortunately, the GOP House since then has refused to even allow a vote on it ... .
And needless to add that no longer paying border patrol agents for more than a month, and two weeks later threatening to do so again, and then randomly picking undocumented people and deport them instead of seriously attacking crime and targeting criminals for deportation, and then lying about walls etc. is NOT making us safer...
@Eric There are different rules for property along national borders.
2
Leaving your borders unsecured is like leaving your doors unlocked at night so needy homeless people can come in and help themselves to food and a warm place to sleep.
9
@God
Dear God,
in that case, stop voting for the GOP, because the only ones proposing fact-based border security strengthening measures for years already, are the Democrats.
Read 2013' S.744 for instance, a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill that Obama managed to get through the Senate with 68 votes.
Compare those measures with national security reports, and you'll see that THAT is what REAL national security measures look like.
The GOP House refuses for five years already to even allow a vote on it. That's why today, contrary to what border patrol agents ask for years, there are still not 40,000 additional BP agents at the southern border, there is still no e-verify, there are still no drones at places at the border where that's the best protection, etc.
And then the GOP decides to no longer pay border patrol agents at all.
And now, it absolutely wants to randomly deport undocumented people, instead of targeting perpetrators of violent crime, which once again means deliberately keeping crime rates higher than what could already have been the case.
And then we're not even talking yet about the fact that contrary to what tv and radio celebrities like Trump and Ann Coulter make the GOP base believe, ALL national security experts' reports show that a full wall is NOT the most effective way to protect the southern border, the CURRENT wall is (when it comes to walls, that is).
Or the fact that southern border cities do NOT want a wall, etc. ...
2
What’s wrong with that?
1
How Godly.
The racist symbolism is a mandate for the current occupant of the white house by his racist enablers.
Governors and congressional representatives who actually are representing people on the border all say the wall providing border security is a joke.
Negotiating in good faith, the democrats propose to focus the efforts of ICE, or the make a america great crowd's brown shirts, focus their zeal on the people WE ALL agree need to go: criminals. We are not too terrorized by a mother and her children seeking asylum, a productive tax paying illegal, here for decades, etc.
Focus the resources available to remove danger, not run up numbers.
Zero of my money, my children's money, or my grandchildren's money for a racist wall that the pretend president and his cult said Mexico would pay for, that is dumb and unwanted by the American people.
6
President Trump, having already underestimated the resistance to his cock-a-mamee idea of building a useless but "Beautiful" Wall along our Southern Border, via the normal process of seeking Congressional support, in a fit of pique shuts down the government- Only managing to highlight the GOP's ineptitude in keeping the basic functions of government running day to day.
And then finally, when the military tells the President that it's not a good idea to station battalion force combat troops along the border, simply as a show of force against rag tag and largely imaginary invaders the Commander-and-Chief threatens to either once again shut the government down or enact a precedent setting National Emergency, if he doesn't get his very own Berlin- type Wall, post haste.
Sorry, but if I were the Democratic Leadership I would immediately tell this guy where to put it, and wait for him to step into it up to his kiester.
4
From the time of the Flores settlement, thousands of families have been released so as to avoid separting children from parents or detaining children: vast majority have had their applications denied, a small fraction have been deported.
It is a mystery, why New York times has not provided a breakdown...
8
China is using AI to spot problems in its own 'wall' that need to be repaired. Too bad that Trump espouses putting up a 40's era steel/concrete barrier, rather than a 21st century AI solution based on sensors (video/thermal/seismic) with publicly accessible live feeds. Then, US AI researchers could develop technology to electronically patrol our own 'wall'. Isn't Trump about to sign an AI initiative?
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/technology-innovation/restoring-great-wall.html?_ga=2.67270097.1373015594.1549904683-579037778.1549904683
1
Because Trump can't make as many kickbacks on 21st century technology as he could with a 20th century wall.
"The specter of a shutdown is always out there.” Like a sickle hanging overhead.
"“It’s frustrating to know that he is still unwilling to acknowledge the truth about immigrants, the truth about the border,” and the truth about the wall versus effective border security.
1
And a hammer.
The wall was to be paid for by Mexico as he promised. Now he wants to bait and switch. Let him pay for it out of his own pocket. Of course he won't because he welshes on deals anytime he can. But let's hold him to it & not let him off the hook. Humiliation is all he is due from us. The likelihood is that if he gets congress to allocate the 5.7 Billion it will all find its way into his pocket. Perhaps some of our braver members of congress will find the gumption to introduce a resolution calling on the President to foot the bill.
6
Border security, the wall, those are just a fake facade, the real objective is to disable the government of, by, and for the people. Trump and the puppet masters pulling his strings have destroyed democracy, the rule of law, and the will of the majority. They want to permanently shut down democracy so that they can institute a theocratic dictatorship of the rich. We need a 1789 here!
8
How can these supposed statesmen stand behind this hypocrite? He , yes he his name on all his properties, his money making businesses hires illegal aliens. What is their answers to that? The big rich guy can hire undocumented, and pay them less, but all the rest are criminals? This is the biggest ripoff the American taxpayers will be saddled with. And oh by the way, thanks for all the refund money we aren’t getting. You saved us from ourselves. We wouldn’t know how to spend all of it.
5
The democrats are foolish to think that immigration is a winning issue and should not let the deal fall apart unless it is unavoidable. 2020 is going to be a referendum on immigration when trump runs for re-election, and republicans are wisely doing everything they can to make immigration seem like a problem, even if it means shutting down the government. The democrats won a huge victory and have only down to go in keeping this fight alive. Trump has totally caved on the important issues, take the win and move on. Who cares if it is imperfect? WIN the white house in 2020 and undo it all!! Focus on corruption, the failed tax cut, rising sea levels, anything. 2016 did not teach democrats the right lessons. I'm an independent who votes Democratic, and I'm terrified the Democrats aren't ready for 2020 and will continue to lose winnable elections and subject us all to republican reverse-robin-hoods like Trump, et al.
4
This odd and silly behavior of our politicians gives aid and comfort to the enemies of America. Wait. That's the definition of something. Okay, I'll be one witness - need one more.
1
Boy, I remember what a panic Texas Republicans were in when the rumor floated that Obama was going to send troops to Texas. Abott screamed in panic about an "invasion," which, of course never materialized. Democrats had a good laugh over their paranoia. Now, Trump actually does send thousands of troops to our state and not one Republican objects? Where are the cries of federal "tyranny" now? The indignity over the "invasion" of sacrosanct Texas soil? Texas Republicans are hypocrites, every last one of them.
7
Hey NYT. Instead of just giving us pieces about what the politicians want you to report, and odd pieces about border towns' feelings about what Trump says, can you do some real factual reporting that gives us voters information on the issue with which we can form independent opinions. Some ideas...
How many illegals? Known and potential unknown. Percentages that are looking for work, seeking asylum, gangsters, traffickers, and so on.
Economic costs of illegals (ER, schools, police, and so on).
Reasons politicians don't seem to want to require E-Verify.
What labor laws do employers skirt by hiring illegals--does that have an impact on wages generally?
Demographic shifts due to illegal entry.
How much and in what ways do illegals contribute to the economy? What's the overall impact taking positives and negatives?
Graphs showing the number of illegals entering--who, how, and where?
Stats on illegal immigrant law breaking--gangs. Costs to our country.
What border security wants.
Info on ICE--what exactly have they been doing.
8
@Frank Scully
Good luck. They only run weepy stories with photos of sad-eyed children.
2
I'm sure Customs & Border Patrol could use a squadron or two of F-35s. That'll fix things.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/f-35-program-gets-champion-in-top-gop-slot-on-house-appropriations-panel
1
Remember when Trump said he was going to go after "the baddest of the bad"? How is that Mothers, Fathers, who are not Criminals and Children put into Kiddie Koncentration Kamps then LOST are the "dangerous felons" that Trump accuses the Democrats of protecting?
The Republicans have no business being in Office ... they have abrogated their Oath of Office in allowing a "wannabe" Dictator to make up a Border "Crisis", Shut Down a Government and continuing to imprison CHILDREN!
So much for "separation of powers"!
1
Build the wall and stop Democrats from ruining America
4
Too late. The Donald and his specious GOP enablers already have. The rest of the world and more than half of Americans already know this.
1
Trump made the non issue wall the main issue; shutdown is Trumps. Ray Sipe
4
Democrats already have a horrible roster of candidates. Add to that another shutdown over their support for illegal immigrants plus their calls to abolish ICE and they can kiss 2020 goodbye.
4
"desperately needed Border Wall "
Another lie. The only thing desperately needed is a replacement for Trump and Mick Mulvaney.
6
It is not about semantics, and it is not about the worst kind of politics on the Democratic side. In the past, Democrats have voted for a package of measures to clean up the immigration mess. Trump, on the other hand, boils the whole mess down to the absence of a wall. Anyone who saw any of his chanting supporters at his managed rallies knows that Trump is a racist, and that his wall is a dog-whistle to racists. With time, as Trump tries to justify his wall, and as he tries to obfuscate his racism, he blames most of America's crime, illegal drugs, undocumented immigrants, and terrorism on the absence of a wall. Np Democrat could in good conscience endorse a racist proposal like that. It's up to Trump to get real about immigration and about America. So the choice seems to be no deal or to endorse grotesque racism as exemplified by Trump, Coulter, Hannity, Steve King, and a multitude of white supremacists. That's not my America.
2
WHY! Are American taxpayers on the hook for a wall at all, in any way shape or form? This President spends like a drunken sailor handing out tax cuts to billionaires while he pays nothing for 18 years. The only ones who pay for rich people to play anymore are the middle class.
9
They should immediately pass a bi-partisan bill that states that all members of the house and senate, as well as the president, contribute their salaries to those that will be put out of work as a result of the shutdown.
You better believe they would come to an agreement, and fast.
2
@confounded, Amen!
When are the Republicans going to wake up?
2
The workers should be making plans to shut down the country if Trump shuts down the government. Republicans are all politics, all the time, move on. Funding bills have passed both the House and the Senate, they are just about the same, use them. If Trump veto's that bill, override it. Its not that hard.
5
Why is it wrong to ask for adequate border security in 2019 when its been sought after by all the Presidents prior to this one?
Answer: Because Democrats hate DJT and would rather stymie his every move than do whats best for America. Its blatantly obvious when you see those old Videos of Obama and Clinton saying again and again we need to stop the flow of Illegal Aliens across our Southern Border that if we'd done something then we'd have about 10 Million less Illegals here now.
Democrats have no agenda except thwart DJT. They are the party of obstruction. Oh yes, they do have a new agenda its called the Green Dream...lets ban planes trains and Automobiles....give us all a break!
Take a look at France and see whats in your future folks if these ignorant zealots ever get in positions to implement any of this nonsense.
4
trump's bluffing
2
Trump must lead for the good of all Americans, not just Ann Coulter.
2
President Trump is more focused on leading a political party than leading the country. His vitriol produces an atmosphere of chaos to hide his political ineptitude.
2
Trump and his stooge Miller are all about optics and disruption. We need a comprehensive immigration policy and state of the art security systems not a silly wall. Keep in mind that Trump is a master at distraction. He is panicking about the probes into his nefarious dealings. The American people will not tolerate another shutdown and no longer doubt that we have a self-serving incompetent President. Our democracy will survive. Our country will soon oust this President. His so called base are loosing patience with Trump's lies and deceit.
3
@Peter, I pray you are correct that Americans will not tolerate another shut down and that we will elect a people-serving, competent, and stable chief executive next time around. I'm not sure our democracy will survive if we don't.
This is absolutely ridiculous. True, we need better border security to protect the homeland from drug smugglers and to protect us from real terrorists who will eventually use central American countries as entry routes to the American mainland. Migrants of central Americans trying to escape domestic terrorism at home are not our enemies. But ISIS and their cousins are.
Trump is delusional and will fight to have his way just to prove he has bigger Rocky Mountain Oysters than anyone else. Trump does not care about America or Americans. He only cares about Trump. Democrats need to stop playing Trump's game. Start by following the advice of those on the border who know what is needed and build a physical barrier where that is needed. Then spend time on improving lives for all Americans. Stop this childish nonsense which will backfire on Democrats in 2020.
3
With all that razor wire and border deployments of US military, will Americans be able to cross the border?
1
Please "Let's Make a Deal" and show Trump how it's done. Let's really "put it to bed" rather than have the beds put it in jeopardy. #MakeDemocracyWorkAgain
Shelby says a deal is "50-50" - I'd say Shelby and his Senate Republicans are 100% complicit in metastasized treason by supporting Putin's Puppet and not the best interests of America. Furthermore, they are complicit in removing children from parents and "losing them."
The most dangerous problem in America is from within. The fact of this matter is that one whole former American political party, the Republican one, supported the Electors' unlawful election of a President-elect. And in the face of prima facie evidence that this President has adhered to our enemies, giving them aid and comfort - Congressional Republicans continue to support Vladimir's puppet.
It is self-evident, the real danger to our Republic is from with.
1
Send troops to the border, then build a wall to ‘protect’ them. Sounds like the kid who wanted clemency as an orphan after he killed his parents.
4
What a novel idea!
Let's have another shutdown ... after all, the last one achieved SO much, didn't it?
1
@Kathy Molloy -- Trump isn't tired of winning yet.
1
Politicizing our military for what amounts to nothing more than a campaign stunt is not only a disgrace, it is a threat to our national security -- not as dangerous as Trump refusing to listen to his intelligence chiefs but a close second. If ever there were grounds for impeachment these are them.
4
Walls work. 5 billion for the wall is nothing compared to the 140 billion per year that illegals cost our country.
Trump will build it and he will be re-elected.
4
@Olivia -- Trump said it was 113 B$ per year, and politifact says that's "mostly false."
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/01/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-illegal-immigration-costs-113-bi/
"Trump presented this figure as a hard fact to make his case, and not as the rough, high-end estimate that it is.
The figure matches a 2013 study by a group that wants to reduce immigration, FAIR.
It’s uncertain how much immigrants in the United States illegally cost taxpayers, but FAIR’s data is largely based on broad estimates and assumptions. Another report by a conservative think tank pegged the amount at about $85 billion a year. Reports by pro-immigration or neutral groups have come in significantly lower, and other reports have been inconclusive.
Estimating the costs of illegal immigration is extremely difficult and produces dramatically different figures, depending on the source. Yes, there are costs. But Trump is selecting the highest of all possible estimates from a range that varies widely.
We rate Trump’s statement Mostly False."
Trump's wall is estimated to cost 25 - 35 B$. He sure will not build it for 5.
As to whether he will be reelected or not, wait and see,
That figure (which you've inflated by $5 billion for some unknown reason) comes from reactionary, anti-immigration group and is not taken seriously by any informed person. Just scaremongering with debunked assertions, which unfortunately work well on the ill-informed, terrified base that put this ignorant oaf into office and still supports him.
1
It's time to build a very large, very great wall around the White House and call it a federal prison.
3
It's confusing why Republican's believe that the "wall" legislation should be enacted.
The Republicans had complete control of government and they couldn't pass the "wall" legislation. Conclusion - It wasn't important to Republicans.
Republicans then campaigned on the "wall" in the midterms
They lost control of Congress to Democrats by 10million votes..
Conclusion - It is not important to the Nation.
This is not a difficult concept.
25
@Martin
It's even worse than that.
As Democrats are democrats, last spring they accepted a version of the 2013 bipartisan immigration reform bill that Obama got through the Senate with 68 votes (and without stopping to pay border patrol agents, of couse ...) that included FULL funding of Trump's wall ($26 billion), as democracy means accepting to compromise once you loose elections.
Why was this bill never signed into law?
Because at the very last minute, Ann Coulter started tweeting that Trump should reject any bill that contains the bipartisan Dream Act (written by Senators Lindsey Graham, a 2016 GOP presidential candidate and Dick Durbin (D), and supported by 80% of the American people, including a majority of GOP voters.
And so he did.
In the meanwhile, indeed, the four-star Generals in his own cabinet (Sec. of Defense and Chief of staff) had already publicly admitted that all national security experts' reports show that a Trump wall (from sea to shining sea) is NOT the most effective way to defend and protect the southern border. And the district with the longest southern border (800 miles, Texas) rejects a wall too, and is represented in the House by a Republican who strongly opposes it.
So yes, of course the GOP opposes a wall too. And that's why Trump never even STARTED negotiating with his own party to obtain it. He could have passed a clean border wall, which doesn't need 60 votes in the Senate but only 50, anytime he wanted.
So he never wanted it either.
Instead of giving Trump all of the money he is requesting to enhance the wall, Democrats could offer him a lesser amount in exchange for agreeing with his proposal that all employers, even private individuals, be required to use “e-verify”. “E-verify” is a quick and easy-to-use program that tells an employer if an employee is permitted to work in the U.S. The government could advertise the necessity of using it, and explain how to access and use it. Those who continue to employ the undocumented could first be issued formal warnings, and then, if they still fail to follow the law, they could be issued increasingly larger fines until they are paying the full cost of what federal, state, county, and local taxpayers are spending to support the average undocumented worker and his or her dependents.
Some of Trump’s businesses have been using “e-verify”. Now, all of them would have to start using it.
The way to discourage illegal immigration is to deny jobs to illegal immigrants.
7
Ann, there's the rub. The same reason that they are allowed to come into this country and basically, squat, is the same reason they government won't require E-Verify to be enforced. People make a lot of money off their labor. Why pay someone a Journeyman wage, like a carpenter, $30-$45/hour, plus benefits, when you can get a guy to do I for $12/hour, no insurance, nothing at all? Why get medical insurance at all, the required effort to get your employees insured, bonded, whatever it is you give them, when they can get treated at the ER for pennies?
2
@Ann
“...until they are paying the full cost of what federal, state, county and local taxpayers are spending to support the average undocumented worker and his/her dependents.”
Starve ‘em out, huh?
Make sure they can’t work. That’ll save the government lots of money, Ann.
According to NPR.org there’s 11.1 million of ‘em. And 80% of those folks is currently employed! We’d better stop that. In the public interest. Make sure they’re unemployed and desperate.
Hunt ‘em down. Deport them. That won’t cost much.
Maybe we could find a great big doily to drape over the Statue of Liberty while we process these critters back to wherever they came from.
2
"Surreal scramble" doesn't even begin to describe it. This mean-spirited would-be dictator and his minions are once again using a smoke screen to distract from real issues (climate change is just the top of the melting ice berg) AND from the investigations into criminal activity which should have locked them up a long time ago -- and WOULD have, if the perpetrators belonged to the Democratic party. And isn't it about time to end this asinine practice of discussing politics on Twitter.
12
16,000 "beds" was approximately what ICE had under Obama, and he was "the Deporter in Chief."
Trump's ICE is bursting at the seams right now with about 44,000. Trump's DHS has raided other accounts to pay for all of this, defying the congressional appropriations. Many of these are private prisons, and there are many complaints about conditions and abuse.
The public isn't getting any accounting for who is in these prisons and what is happening. It doesn't appear that Trump is actually deporting people at a rate ≈ 2.7 times as fast as Obama was, so what must be happening is that they are just languishing in jail longer.
What is the Trump administration doing here? Is it just rounding up illegal aliens and throwing them into long confinements as a policy of terror?
9
It sounds ridiculous to give a 2 weeks period to discuss a very complicated issue like border security. Hence, I don’t understand why the President gives a very tight deadline. Why did he settle this issue when the Congress was controlled by the GOP? If the President failed to give a priority on this issue in his first year, why then the people have to bear the consequences? I do hope that there wont be another shutdown. It hurts the people, the economy, and more importantly, the country as a whole as the people can loose their trust on the system. It is a total mess.
6
We were promised comprehensive reform in 1986. The Reagan administration agreed to amnesty with proof of being here combined with strict enforcement at the border as well as employers. Only half of that was ever fulfilled. This was allowed to languish for thirty three years.
It seems that trump’s goal is to get people to lose trust in the system, create more division and weaken our country.
"President Trump moved more troops to the border and prepared to rally supporters in Texas on Monday."
Sounds like a coup.
The American people don't want a wall.
And Congress has rights and responsibilities.
Are these troops ours or perhaps Russians?
11
Yes, they do want a wall. speak for yourself, not the "American people".
1
The left continues to demand: lax border enforcement, decreased deportations, sanctuary cities, no wall, higher immigration levels (even as the U.S. population surges past 330 million), more " refugees" be allowed in, no reductions in extended family entry, birthright citizenship be kept, anyone who gets here by any means can't be deported and yet claim they are not for "open borders" when ever thing they want says open borders. There are 100s of millions of people, almost all economic refugees, who want to come here. Are we to have no restrictions or limits? The U.S. is the per capita leader in world co2 emissions. How does the left justify increasing the U.S. population in light of global warming?
8
I believe not just anyone can come here. What does that have to do with $5 billion for a wall. A totally specious argument.
@Al -- take a deep breath, and ...
Birthright citizenship is in the constitution. If you want to change that, it will take an amendment.
Go read the Immigration act of 2013 ... the one that passed in the senate on a bipartisan vote, and that the Republican-controlled house (under John Boenhert) refused to take up.
It had universal E-verify. Democrats voted for universal E-verify. Why did the Republicans refuse to take it up?
Pssst, like Trump, large numbers of Republican-owned businesses hire illegals, farming and food-processing particularly.
Trump's wall is a charade.
1
@Steve Mason. The point is, in some situations a wall is needed. Ever driven by a prison? Note: they come with walls. Most countries on earth have walls. Not everywhere, but certainly where needed.
Maybe the Democrats are trying to force another shutdown to turn attention away from their current troubles in Virginia
4
@Melissa M. Despite Virginia, this will be another Trump shutdown. Republicans know they will be blamed, as before.
They better get with it and get it done. I don't care what the president wants. We need a budget. Trump would be wise to remember that he serves at the pleasure of the people.
5
Any deal regarding "border security" must include a pathway to citizenship for those already here and a fix for the dysfunctional asylum system that continues to abuse people for crime of fleeing violence and poverty in their homelands. Why isn't any of that on the table? At least, I'm not reading anything about it if it is.
2
This US is giving over 10 billion to two countries (Mexico and Honduras) just this year! The VA system is 35 billion dollars OVER a no-bid contract to update their electronic records system and work has not even started! Just two suspect budget items that the tax payer will be on the hook for billions just this year and we cannot fund a secure border? The Dems propose cutting border security budget as a part of 'their proposed legislative budget' as a compromise? The Democrats are responsible for where we are today and it's getting worse.
Democrats: Do NOT close the government down over your petty fight with Reps and Trump. The people want a secure border, do not believe the tens of thousands that are flooding to our borders are asylum seekers, and we are angry at your progressive attempt to open our borders under the guise of 'humanitarian' action. Lastly, are you trying to secure Trump a second term?
6
Let's shut down state and city governments, too. Let's have a full shutdown. Let the anti-government GOPers see how much they depend on the government,
Parks closed. No problem.
Close schools. You have the time to educate and supervise your own kids.
Close the fire departments. There's a sale on hoses at Home Depot right now.
Maybe you shouldn't eat out. I trust Ronald McDonald to do the right thing, but I sure like to have health inspectors looking over his shoulder.
Close any hospital that gets government money. Isn't that all of them?
Turn off the traffic lights. I'm sure you can come to an agreement with the other motorists about who goes first.
We don't need public transit. Who'll notice a few extra cars on the road, especially since no one's moving?
Close the prisons, too. Most murderers only kill friends and relatives. You don't have any friends or relatives who have access to a gun or knife, do you?
What will you do about the garbage that's piling up? You can call a private carter, but you've read what those guys are like. Without government enforcement, they'll just dump your stuff around the corner and charge your neighbor to pick it up later and dump it back at your house.
The roads and bridges will not collapse if the government slacks off on repairs. After that, you can get together with your neighbors and DIY.
Who needs government in these modern times? Maybe we all do. And appropriately paid high-quality employees to do the jobs.
7
I guess we should be thankful this crisis is a figment of the child in the Whitehouse’s imagination, just like pretty much every other issue in this Presidency, versus something much more serious, like a real threat to our nation. Considering he doesn’t understand, let alone, read or listen to any experts on any subject, it’s fortunate we’re talking about a simple wall.
3
@Dave I still say Congress should gift Donny with a Lego set and call it good. He can build a wall during "executive time."
It is not untoward to say that Trump is really not interested in compromise on the border issue, but would rather unilaterally do a dramatic end run around the now divided Congress. This would play much more effectively to his core base.
Likely legal challenges are not a concern when the real objective is all about political posturing and very little about functional border security.
On the Congressional side the latest impasse regarding a cap on ICE detentions is mostly about the Dems flexing muscle in favor of reining in broad ICE sweeps. This is Pelosi working maneuvering to placate to the more liberal members of the caucus.
Nothing new here, just more of the impossible head butting that has become the hallmark of Washington’s grand dysfunction.
All of this is rooted in our decades of a profoundly broken immigration system with no credible remedy in sight.
2
Mitch McConnell is awfully quiet. He is one of many who have violated their oath of office
6
This is the only partially true Tweet from Trump: "I don't think".
4
No wall money, no way Trump gets the nomination much less wins re-election, keep up the good work Dems. NOT ONE PENNY.
2
I honestly can’t see how he’d shut down the government. Last time he did it, he regretted the fact that his approval ratings dropped so drastically. We all know how he feels being rejected. I can foresee even more of the republicans turning their backs on him. Definitely the government employees not getting paid again won’t be supportive of his wall budget either. He’s going to lose either way.
If someone really wants to understand all these craziness occurred in front of your eyes. please read the book America:The Farewell Tour by Chris Hedges. It is a dark book to read, but it is reality my children and your children have to face now and the future.
5
Animus towards Trump is so intense that posters can no longer think clearly. Introducing a "stop-and-release" requirement is like throwing a fire bomb into the negotiations. It guarantees that no compromise will be made.
The big question, and one not covered nearly enough by The Times, is what is going on within the Democratic Party right now? Is it even in a position to reach a compromise? Was compromise ever even an option? Why was a "stop-and-release" requirement (under the guise of bed counts) added at this late stage?
If they don't have the votes for a compromise, and never did, you can be sure Americans will discover this soon enough and respond accordingly.
2
@AACNY -- first of all, who said "stop and release?" You just made that up out of thin air. Ditto Trump's "they don’t even want to take murderers into custody!" ... that's pure nonsense. There are not 16,000 murders per year in the USA, and of those a letter sent by DHS says " 121 homicides were committed in the U.S. between 2010-2014 by illegal immigrants" ... that's 30 per year.
Stop the nonsense. There are far more than enough beds for criminals. There are enough beds for a high rate of deportations, too.
What's going on is that Trump's ICE is just throwing people, mostly non-criminal people, into prisons and keeping them there for a long time, not deporting them. You tell me why?
If Trump (republicans) were serious about illegal immigration they would crack down hard on companies that hire illegal workers (Such as his own company) and levy big fines and jail terms for top management. Give us sensible and honest work permits for those wanting to work in the US without this shadow economy of winks and nods.... allowing the exploitation of people in dangerous working conditions and no access to protection... Who benefits from this shadow economy? That should tell you all you need to know. Neither side has the stomach to be honest about this.
2
What are Democrats doing? Illegal immigrants should be treated humanely, but they are not “law abiding immigrants.” Stop conflating illegal immigrants with legal immigrants. I vote Democrat and you are pushing me further away each time such a statement is made.
6
immigrants who have both crossed the border legally and illegally have the right, yes the right to request asylum. the vast majority are not killers rapists or gang members and should not be incarcerated while waiting for a hearing. If Trump's Homeland security was doing its job there would be plenty of space for real criminals. 16,500 cap is a line in the sand to make trump and his minions do there job.
TRUMP Caused the humanitarian crisis at the border, by tearing families apart and making it extremely difficult for them to be reunited. Trump had said to Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, on TV, in the oval Office, that HE would own the shutdown. Since every word out of his mouth is a lie, Trump is saying that the Democrats caused the government shutdown. Since he was a child, Trump has constantly sought negative attention. He started food fights at birthday parties as a kid. His default position in is a food fight. Food fights are absolute failures as substitutes for rational, intelligent, educated domestic and foreign policy. But Trump has severe impairment of the language, memory and executive functions of the brain. Also, he has extremely poor insight and judgment. Finally, he is disoriented in all 3 spheres of reality testing: time, place and person. Trump is medically incapable of fulfilling his official duties. He protests every memo over one page. His idea of giving a speech is to read what someone else wrote on a teleprompter. Trump's highest level of written language is a 140 character tweet or rarely, a 280 character tweet. If an average word is 5 letters, that means that Trump can write 25 words and sometlmes 50 words. Trump colludes with the Russians, North Koreans and other foreign governments against the interests of the USA. He breaks every law, regulation and tradition he can, to shift the attention to himself. That's all he does consistently.
1
The ICE bed-limit, no matter its necessity, is a ridiculous addition, politically, for Dems at this point. Time and again, why is it that it seeks to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? This handed conservatives a new arguing point and the only one that makes any sense: it's unfair to do so at this time.
It also makes it appear that Dems are more interested in continuing the showdown than protecting workers. Whatever the reasoning, it's totally indefensible.
3
It's a small thing but please, oh please, just report the awful facts without quoting Trump or repeating his tweets. They add nothing but noise and distraction to the news of what is actually happening.
1
What is it about the need for secure borders that Democrats, liberals and progressives cannot or will not understand? Now they are objecting to having enough beds in detention centers to accomodate actual criminals among illegal aliens. These same Democrat lawmakers voted for even more funds for border security when Obama was president. The hypocrisy is mind boggling, simply to deny Trump the right to protect American borders.
4
The "Democrats, liberals and progressives" understand that catering to hysterical, poorly informed reactionaries, i.e. Trump followers who think a real estate promoter and failed mail-order steak salesman is qualified to be president, is the wrong way to run the country. Rather, the Dems are trying to appeal to American with a sense of decency and duty to stay informed, while the Republicans seek and get the support of the followers of David Duke, Richard Spencer and the James Fields and Robert Bowers' of the world.
There may not be a shutdown if Sen. McConnell would allow the Senate to vote on the appropriations bill(s).
1
Good fences make good neighbors, especially when your neighbors have the highest murder rates on the planet and are awash in drug cartel violence.
4
"Democrats say a cap of 16,500 beds in ICE detention centers would force the Trump administration to focus on detaining undocumented immigrants with criminal records instead of using indiscriminate sweeps that drag in otherwise law-abiding residents."
First, these are not law-abiding 'residents.' They are not citizens and just because they chose to ignore immigration laws, and they are, doesn't make them 'residents.' Second, for all they screaming about separating kids from parents, which didn't make sense, they now want to cut the US ability to detain illegal immigrants that are pretending they are asylum seekers by cutting the number of beds? And the budget for border patrol?! This is a solution?
I voted for Dems in the last election as I believed we need a mix of both parties in Congress because both seem to be crazed. Now I see it is the Dems that have lost it. Never vote Dem again.
3
Can someone please tell me why the Times and other media were so quick to grouse about Pelosi's "victory" over Trump when it was only a short-term reopening of the government? Here we are again.
1
One hopes that the Democrats will agree to accept yes for an answer, even if they come away with less than a full loaf. The real win for the country will be a repudiation of trump's lies about the conditions on the border and a rejection of his false campaign promises. Give the man-child a mile of wall - which might never get built anyway - for his photo-op and get the government funded.
Should that fail, is anyone making odds that the airline pilots and flight attendants unions would immediately call a strike to oppose the safety risks implied by forcing air traffic controllers to again work overtime without pay? That would certainly get Congress' attention.
The government should never be shutdown just because of one item of wall construction.Wall decision can wait but the other work of the country must continue. Outside world ;the Chinese ,EU ,the terrorist and many more are watching our unnecessary internal battle and division among ourselves.Stop it.
Unfortunately, what appeared to be a genuine effort by Republicans in Congress (who refused to fund the government for 35 days by refusing to debate temporary CR's passed by the House and this after Trump reneged on his agreement to sign a CR in December 2018 that would have avoided the shut down altogether in an effort to force money for his vanity wall) to reach an agreement on a CR to fund the government now looks to be only an effort to blame the looming return to a shut down on Democrats. One problem is that Republicans have no ability to compromise. Their definition of compromise is the same as Trump’s. Talk for awhile until Democrats give them what they want for nothing in return or float out of the room like a giant inflated baby.
"Democratic demands" are the problem? No, Republicans are demanding that immigrants be unfairly detained. Their goal is to criminalize immigration. Democrats are correctly resisting that demand.
Even if you don't agree with my opinion, your framing is biased. This a question of competing demands, not intransigence by Democrats over a situation that should never have happened.
May I remind you of what happened? Trump's shutdown could have been avoided if the Senate had done its job and taken a vote on House funding bills. If the Senate had done its job it would have then overridden Trump's veto or convinced him not to veto. Because if the Senate had done its job, it would have put its constituents needs before Trump's unpopular wall.
1
A few months back I heard a NPR report about an Iraqi immigrant who served as a translator for the US Military. He was granted a Visa and located to California.. All he did was complain that California was too expensive for him and his family and wanted to move to another state with a lower cost of living.. When I see thousands of people at the Tijuana border.. I think the same thing.. Where are they going to live ?? San Diego and Los Angeles have no affordable housing .. Are all of them going to live on a ranch in the country? It's ridiculous to think we can accommodate all of these people.. They are poor, uneducated and don't speak English.. We have millions of U.S. citizens who fit that bill .. Let's take care of our own first.
5
My question is this: what does someone have on Rep Lucille Roybal-Allard that she thinks it is important to advocate for the "right" of illegal immigrants?
The thing that Democrats have to realize is that they are dealing with a guy who does not care what others think of him. Most politicians are in the gig because they want others to write their political epitaph. He lives in his own universe. He has demonstrated time and time again that he has no problem attacking others and will counterpunch with comments that have no relation to truth. So others blaming him for the shutdown means a big fat zero to him.
The flashy object called the southern border is a diversion.
The real object is Trump's fake economic war against China, coupled with his real attack on Canada.
From a Canadian website: "If the Trump administration's tariff policy is meant to target unfair Chinese trade, it sure has a funny way of going about it. So far, the U.S. Department of Commerce has excluded about 40 per cent of imports of Chinese steel from facing its 25 per cent tariff. But to date, only two per cent of the total volume of Canadian steel imports to the U.S. has been cleared to dodge the tariff. The head-scratching discrepancy gets even stranger with the United States' 10 per cent tariff on aluminum imports."
Is this because Canada is a social democracy, while China is a Communist dictatorship? and that Trump admires dictators, while hating western democracy? Or is it simply that everything Trump says and does is fake?
This "cap" is simply another Democrat ruse to block the Administration for enforcing immigration law. The reason so many innocent "of crime" immigrants are swept up in ICE raids is because authorities are releasing criminals onto the streets and ICE has to go find them. The "collateral" deportations are because ICE has to follow the law. Democrats don't want to follow the law. Very simple.
3
If Trump is so desperate to build his wall, he can pay for it himself. He has the $5 billion in his personal coffers. "The wall will get built no matter what?" Then build it yourself, Mr. President. That can be your charitable donation to the United States of America.
2
Irony is that in 2013 democrats wanted to pass a bill requesting 46 billion for border security.
A 2013 immigration bill that included $46.3 billion for border security was supported by all 52 Democrats in the Senate and only 14 Republicans. The bill was part of a bipartisan push for comprehensive immigration reform that included a path to citizenship for illegal aliens.
3
Nita Lowey is the lead negotiator for the Democrats. Yet she has said little in public since the opening 77 minute session-see it on CSPAN. It's time for the NYT and the rest of the MSM to press, in public, Lowey on where she stands on the negotiations.
Might also want to remember that Pelosi et al made Lowey the Appropriation Committee chair when they ignored seniority on the Committee. Marcy Kaptur, from OHIO, was pushed aside for a NY person. The D's are a bicoastal party and have ignored the heartland. (Same thing happened to John Dingell when he was pushed aside for CA's Waxman....)
2
One has to wonder whose side the Democrats are on? It certainly doesn't seem like it's the American people.
4
If it is true that Democrats have raised a new demand in these negotiations (and really don't know since these negotiations have taken place in the dark), it reminds me of Republicans in Obama's administration always upping the ante in their negotiations with him and Democrats at similar crisis points. There's a reason they earned the "Party of No" sobriquet, thanks largely to the Tea Party movement and the Freedom Caucus. It seemed to work well for Republicans. Voters gave them total control of the government for two years with Trump's election. Let's hope the result for Democrats will be the same in 2020. We apparently cannot have divided government that works.
3
If the government shuts down again, it will be on Trump and the GOP.
If the government shuts down, I hope what happens, though inconvenient, is all IRS, TSA, and air traffic controllers call in sick. Disrupting the air traffic system and treasury will certainly make the 1% oligarch, and Trump minders, very nervous. Actually they will start calling for Trump's and Pence's heads. As well as people like Graham. See how quickly the government opens up again, and is funded through the rest of the fiscal year.
The idea that one person has the power to shutdown the government, and use extortion and intimidation, as weapons, should not be possible, in this country. Nor, should they can abuse executive authority and spend taxpayer money, without the approval of the people; that is Congress.
Congress should make it impossible for the President of the United States to shutdown the government. Congress is the check on the Executive Branch, and thus, a president cannot spend money, or shutdown the government, without going through Congress.
Let's face it, if Congress were to vote to shutdown the government, those who do so, deserve to be removed from office.
Finally, if Trump does indeed shutdown the government, this Friday, and declares a national emergency to get $5.7 billion; he should be impeached and removed from office.
9
Both parties in this negotiation should consider a mediator. It's obvious that both are negotiating from positions rather than underlying needs and wants. This is never a good idea, as talks can deadlock, as they are now. A skilled mediator would help Trump understand when he stands firm on the 'wall', he is taking a position in the negotiation. Instead, he should look at his needs and wants. Just guessing from here, it sounds like he wants to prevent the unauthorized influx of refugees. And this need can be met in a number of ways with the wall one of them.
A mediator would also help Nancy Pelosi identify her underlying wants and needs.
Many authors in this blog outright attack Trump, but I'd rather light one candle (how to successfully negotiate) rather than curse the darkness (in his administration). So, today, I'm rushing a copy of 'Getting to Yes' by Fisher and Ury to the White House with the hope that a staffer (or the big guy himself) recognize techniques espoused can lead to a successful result for both parties.
6
It wasn't reason that put Our President in the Gilded House. It's a tool he has no use for. But good luck.
Of course, this fiasco has nothing to do with anything. Might as well have a shutdown over having gold plumbing installed in the White House.
Trump isn’t worried about his “base”. They’ll follow him anywhere he wants to go. It’s just about “my way of the highway” which is not how the Constitution assigns decision making.
When are the billionaire backers of the GOP going to green light their Senate to pass an override? What are they getting out of this? Does it advance their goal of dismantling democracy and installing an Oligarchy to deal with chaos?
15
Green check marks again, John Brews ✅✅. Very misleading.
I agree with your comment but not the use of an outdated NY Times "trusted" commenter. They stopped using them some time ago.
Please change the color or do away with them. Your comments will stand on their own merit.
1
We have to have gold plumbing in order to make Our President's Executive Time™ more pleasant.
No compromises should be made with someone who first said the onus of shutting down the government was on him and now, as usual, is trying to blame it on the Democrats. He broke it, he bought it. Let this man know he cannot use spoiled child tactics to get his way. That's not how responsible government works.
21
@Zoned You assume he actually cares, he doesn't. He is not shifting blame because he cares, he is simply doing what most bullies do.
There is little that I agree with that Mitch McConnell says or does, but I think that when referring to another government shutdown, he said that there is no education in the second kick of a mule. I think that's plain enough for even President Trump to understand. The same can be said of a second arms race.
Everyone admits that it would be insane for both sides to launch their nuclear arsenals against the other. Few, however, see the insanity in placing ourselves in a position where MAD is not only possible, but probably inevitable. If we are to pull away from the ridiculous posture we've now assumed, there will need to be a paradigm shift in human thought around the world, and particularly in the United States and Russia. If not, we are doomed.
In the near future, we will program the human mind in the computer based on a "survival" algorithm, which will provide irrefutable proof as to how we trick the mind with our ridiculous beliefs about what is supposed to survive - producing minds programmed de facto for destruction. These minds would see the survival of a belief as more important than the survival of all. When we understand all this, we will begin the long trek back to reason and sanity.
See RevolutionOfReason.com
1
@RLB Thus was the lesson of the movie "War Games". Problem is getting humans to go through the same learning process that Joshua did.
With each passing day of news out of Washington, I have began to seriously wonder whether “we the people“ have lost the ability to govern ourselves. If we cannot relearn the need to send better people to Washington, “we the people“ will bear a major share of the blame for destroying our democracy.
3
@Tom Debley
First, better people need to run.
Build a wall to protect the troops sent there? Easy solution to keep our soldiers safe: bring them home (to North Carolina)!
8
The Democrats have tipped their hand. This was never about the efficacy of the wall. This is a cynical ploy for open borders and shameless pandering to the needs of non citizens not hopes of monopolizing the Hispanic and more quickly shifting the country’s changing demographics.
14
Donald Trump is worth 10 Billion. Let him take his own money and build the wall. No one will stop him except the Republican land owners who have property along the Southern border.
10
For best results, he can build it between Mexico and Guatemala. Much shorter distance, and Mexico might actually kick in a few simoleons for that wall.
You want to reform ICE and return it to the border “police force” its suppose to be instead of a quasi military department of homeland security then focus on winning the 2020 election instead of tilting at windmills. Also stop talking about abolishing ICE, it allows the republicans to throw around absurd nonsense about open borders and other conservative fantasies. Border security like immigration needs to be “reformed”. Make that case and stop playing to Trump and his bases xenophobic racism and immigrant hysteria.
5
The crisis at the border is escalating and these Democrats want to have open borders allowing in anybody anytime. we are viewing the attempted destruction of a country in an effort to stuff the ballot box . These Democrats are so power hungry they will do anything legal or illegal to get it, it is mirroring the rise of the Communist Party in Russia under Lenin. Never has our nation been in so much danger and it is time for patriots to rise up and tell the Socialists/Communists that they are failures and totalitarians. Our nation will remain free because we are not going to allow tyranny to prevail. I fear for my children and grandchildren like never before.
7
@Stuffing the ballot box ia a Trumpism ploy to promote his lies
1
@James
Up here in Pennsylvania it’s quiet, chilly and lunchtime. Just another snowy Monday. You know how they come and go. Mondays. This time of year.
I can’t quite figure out which emergency’s got you all riled up. We got no border emergencies. No ballot box stuffing. No commie conspiracies.
Trump’s paddling along in his sea of delusion. Same as he’s been for the past two years. Happy as if he had good sense. Oh well.
James, there’s a sort of hysterical tone to your comment. Are you okay?
3
Dems calling for looser border security is like the dog chasing the car. Less border security is not something Americans really want, but it's a good political debate to make Trump look 'wrong'.
6
@Not 99pct Trump is wrong all by himself. He excels in it. He's the most wrong president in U.S. history!
If we deport a peaceful house builder, dynamite any house he has worked on. What, the house wasn’t hurting anyone? Neither was the builder.
4
I wish main stream reporting would at least acknowledge the devastating impact a border wall would have on the environment. All we hear about is the politics, but what about the actual physical impact? And also, as a Democrat, it would be nice if my elected officials would draw a line in the sand over wages and income inequality, failing infrastructure, and the need to implement green technologies- things that would benefit citizens of this country. They don't seem to have a problem standing up for people from other countries (which I'm ok with), but how about standing up for us once and a while?
122
That's NOT what the fight is all about today.
Today, the GOP decided to start to attach highly partisan, new law projects, to an appropriations bill. THAT is unprecedented and unacceptable (and in most Western countries simply illegal).
An appropriations bill funds the executing/implementation of already existing law by the Executive branch of government for the next year.
These bills typically pass unanimously, as they aren't "political" (the bills that they fund have to be implemented anyhow, as they're existing law). Discussions are about some details, but not about highly controversial things.
Such a bipartisan appropriations bill already passed in the Senate in December 100-0. Nancy Pelosi passed it in the House.
McConnell and Trump, however, refuse to allow a final vote on it and sign it into law.
THEY (not Democrats) decided to attach immigration to that bill, and to try to obtain highly partisan, new law projects on immigration, hoping that Democrats will care more about no longer paying border patrol agents (= shutting down the government) than the GOP.
They were wrong. Democrats stand first of all for good governance, and that includes keeping the government open during discussions about new, highly partisan and controversial law projects.
The GOP hopes that the media will skip this point and now focus on immigration and border security, as the NYT here does, which is then supposed to strengthen their false narrative that Dems are "open border" etc...
10
@chris . The environment is being devastated by the hordes of immigrants crossing the southern border now. They leave trash, waste and multiple trails everywhere. This disrupts the environment as much as any wall would. It is also deadly for them. The solution may involve a wall in certain places, but a lower birthrate in Central America, economic aid and education, especially for girls are going to be needed.
4
@chris
The wall has become a philosophical and moral issue. Do we want a country walled in to resist outsiders? Or do we want to continue to look inclusive to others? This wall has become synonymous with the separation of children at the border, denying rhe right to asylum and the placing armed troops to fend off migrants dressed in rags. Other issues are important, you are right - but we cannot allow this country to resemble the tyrant at its head.
3
The Border Patrol agents know the border, but why should they have great knowledge of the myriad reasons people head north for the United States, and from more places than ever? Texans who live along the border, of those in NM, AZ, and CA along the porous border know some of the reality of those who try to cross simply by their location. Hearings of either of these groups it seems would break down similarly to the breakdown between parties going on at present. To add money to a broken budget for an unsuitable solution to a complicated issue seems out of the realm of possibilty. A president who constantly muddies and mangles any hope of a compromise and a party who follows him senselessly will never do the right thing. Shutdown or "emergency" order? As senseless and costly as discussions that led to Iraq, Vietnam or other imbroglios by vainglorious and foolhardy impulses in lieu of diplomacy and understanding among all parties.
2
No cap on those with serious criminal records, and a low cap on those without. Reasonable?
1
So where are all the pictures of our troops fighting the terrorists pouring over the border? This is a manufactured crisis. It doesn't exist, just more fake news from trump.
Your headline makes it sound like there has to be a shutdown if congress can't reach a deal. That's not true. The shutdown is just trump and the republicans manufacturing more crisis. They don't care how many people they hurt.
14
Mitch McConnell is frustrated w Democrats? McConnell is the man who has most enabled Trump and others’ assaults in American democracy. He has no moral standing to make any demands on anyone.
16
The Republicans have snarled themselves into another corner by applauding everything that child said at the State of the Union.
9
I think we can safely conclude that the GOP is incapable of governing in any fashion that doesn't resemble threats and blackmail.
11
A first impression is that there should be enough beds for criminals. On the other hand, legitimate asylum seekers are not classified by normal rules as criminals. We know from his words and deeds that Trump sees all people in the same light; if they cross the border that makes them criminals. That is wrong. In that light there is something to the position the Democrats are taking; Trump has squandered any good will or trust in benefit-of-the-doubt considerations.
6
This time the Dems will manage to lose because they are making the detention of "undocumented," really "illegal", immigrants their red line rather than the "wall." They should be demanding faster processing for legal immigrants, those with documentation, who have been observing the rules and waiting their turns. Why not an expansion of legal immigration, especially for those with education and skills - and more especially for those already in residence if they received higher education degrees in the US?
If the Dems were as "diverse" as they claim, they would realize that this is the "Year of the PIG," and The Donald has the Trumps. Too bad. So sad.
6
@San Ta Your expansion of legal immigration would not include the low-skilled, relatively uneducated people at the southern border, so that idea won't work.
I filed my taxes last week so I know exactly how much I’m paying to fund the government. Silly me for thinking that I’m paying for a functioning government!
4
What Trump really wants is to show how powerful he thinks he is. Never mind the reality of the situation. He just can't resist a chance to grandstand and make a show and force the whole country to look at him, pay attention to him, talk about him, good or bad. It is his mania and his reason for life. Nothing else exists for him. Now he will get almost hysterical attention. How glorious! How sublime!
5
What if Canada decides to build a wall to keep Americans out? Just imagine the howls of indignation from Americans, who think they have the right to travel wherever they want, whenever they want ...
10
I cross into Canada at border crossings, not holes in fences in remote areas. I also show my passport.
If the number of beds is the sticking point, get more beds. If you are going to detain someone (and you shouldn't) they should have a bed. Seems like a trivial and relatively inexpensive problem - within a much, much bigger issue. My guess is that Trump doesn't really want a solution. Even if he gets some money for his wall, he will not stop with ridiculous demands to please his base.
4
Trump, with his vast wealth and deep sense of patriotism, should pay for the wall himself.
6
Bad move for the Democrats. They are on 100% solid ground denying Trump any money for a wall. But that's a big thing, and they are not going to be able to escape taking some of the blame and eroding their support if they insist on more than that right now. Trump and the Republicanas will destroy themselves if we have another shutdown because of that issue only, and that's a gift the Dems should not squander by getting greedy.
8
Message to all you supposedly literate pro-open-borders commenters who keep on yammering in this thread about Trump and the wall:
Read the story.
According to this story, in the NYT,
the hang-up in Congress is not funding for "Trump's wall".
The hang-up now is funding for detention beds.
Dems want to cut funding for detention beds.
Instead they just want to let those who cross the border run free in the interior.
SOP for the Dems:
Obstinately obstruct, tooth and nail,
every serious "migration" control measure.
13
No, just obstruct Trump. Negotiations are fine and they are part of politics, but there is no way I want my representatives validating his election by cooperating and carrying on as if everything is perfectly normal with the tool in the White House. You can have usual order when you elect grown ups who don’t want to turn the United States into a Russian oligarchy.
1
@X
The "normal order" in Congress is what is supposed to be happening right now:
The subject is appropriations for fiscal 2019
for DHS and several other Departments.
The "normal order" for that is a House-Senate Conference Committee on Appropriations,
which is the actual correct name for the so-called "bipartisan" committee which is the subject of the NYT story.
I agree that a government shutdown is normally not the best way for the Conference Committee to proceed.
Compromise and negotiation is "normal order".
However, if either the Senate or the House refuse reasonable compromise, shutdown always remains an option.
Also, whatever compromise comes out of negotiations, each side -- and each wing of Congress -- and each party -- and each Senator and Representative -- need to be called to account -- by the voters -- at the next election -- in 2020 -- to defend how it/they/he/she voted in this situation.
And, in the meantime -- now, and all the way up to 2020 -- the subject is open to public debate and discussion.
So far, the Dems are showing their True Colors:
-- de facto pro-open-borders --
despite their disingenuous claims that they are not pro-open-borders.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck,
it is a duck:
They have been consistently and obstinately obstructing nearly every measure for serious "migration" control,
from strong border control and enforcement
to strong interior control and enforcement.
As a life-long Democrat and proud liberal I have been praying that the Dems won't once again snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. But no. I guess that's just asking too much of the party of rather-be-right-than-in-power. This issue couldn't be worse for progressives and better for Trump. An indictable offense is a sufficiently objective criterion for detention. Why not just leave it at that: detain those who are indictable. Why impose an arbitrary number? Doing so opens Dems to the same old "elitist party of social engineers who couldn't give a rat's behind about the rest of us exposed to murderers because they all live behind walled compounds." And have another shut down based on this issue? Plays right into Trump's hands.
10
I wish Dems would quit the crying and handwringing. Even when you’re finally knocking this beast back on it’s heels, you’re still worried about losing.
Republicans demanded an exception to the cap for criminals
Democrats will have a hard time winning the message war if they continue to fight this. It allows Trump to claim that Democrats are protecting criminals
9
A few things:
* Someone needs to remind Mr. Trump that this weekend is President’s day. There will be a lot of people traveling through the airports. Most likely, if there is another shutdown, the pilot & flight attendant unions will have their members not report to work for safety concerns.
* If the southern border is such a crisis, why isn’t Mike Pompeo going down to speak to the leaders of Guatemala, Honduras and Mexico? Instead, his team is preparing for another “summit”/ photo-op with Kim Jong Un.
* Mr. Trump is traveling to El Paso for a rally this week. Really?! Congress needs to cut funding for Air Force One during any shutdown. This is not “essential” travel.
* God forbid, there is another shutdown, government workers should not report for their job. Many of them are still struggling to get back in their feet after the last debacle. (See article about government workers in yesterday’s WAPO).
4
By even considering giving Republicans a penny for their racist wall, Democrats have been thumbing their noses at the overwhelming majority of democratic voters. Can you imagine the reverse? Never. Never would Republicans turn their backs on their base in this way, but Democrats do it with regularity. There are many of them, particularly in the Senate, that, I believe, secretly want Trump to have a fighting chance to win against a progressive challenger in 2020 so that they can continue to sop up corporate money.
3
Limit beds? What? Why?
THIS is the thing Democrats are going to use to make this fail. They're not serious about getting something done if that is the case.
This is exhausting.
Can Congress get it together and stop acting on behalf of the extremists in their parties.
Get something done, please, even if it means (dirty word alert)... compromise.
8
It only takes 10 air traffic controllers to shut down a shutdown.
4
Trump owned the first shutdown. He put it up for sale, and the Democrats bought it. This one is on the Democrats. It is quite clear that they will obstruct anything Trump wants to accomplish. Their Anti-Anything-Trump is so blatantly obvious, it is comical. If he cured cancer, they would blame him for rising health insurance costs.
9
@Duane Mathias
Trump would own a second shut down too. He is the one invoking the specter while continuing to demand wall funding. It sounds like you think the Democrats should just cave to his demands and threats. This is a real issue not just anti-Trump.
I happen to agree with limiting detention beds and investigation of what is happening. I often wonder how many people we have in detention (internment) camps, how many there are, where they are and what conditions are. I often wonder at what or who is in the trains going past. Is this so different than Germany and the people willfully turning a blind eye?
Shame on our Leadership ! Shame on the major media outlets for being mouthpieces for whatever rhetoric Politicians choose to promote no matter how wrong !
As bad as the last shutdown that caused financial hardship for millions of people for no good reason was it offered unequivocal proof that " A Government By The People For The People " is one of the greatest and most powerful lies ever told . Yet , they have the gall to be considering doing it again .
Politics and Politicians and their mouthpiece the major media remain the biggest problem we and the World face . All of them should be booted out of Office and we need to find a way to get representation that is not beholden to big business and the Wealthy .
Shame on the writers for being part of the problem instead of reporting the truth .
2
There is no longer any debate here; just two sides screaming at one another. I would truly think there should be an open hearing where border patrol officials are brought before Congress; sit down and tell the truth about what is really going on; and then tell the world what is really needed to address all the issues involved. Obviously between Trump and the Congress there is a massive P.R. campaign about what is really going on. Only by talking to border agents, mayors, D.E.A. officials, and just plain folks will we ever get a true picture of what is; and is not; needed to fix the problem. Not hysterics from the White House.
14
Unfortunately you must pick the right border security guards. Their jobs are to stop the drugs and people from illegally entering the US. TV interviews so far, indicate that the border guards want better physical barriers to aid them in doing their jobs. This is similar to police departments wanting better controls on guns. Where will they find border guards who say conditions are wonderful right now and no added barriers and enforcement are necessary? Maybe Democrats can start a nationwide search.
1
Finally, the Democrats are learning how to deal with Trump. The answer is not to argue with him about adding stuff like the wall. The answer is to tell him that if he argues about the wall, the Dems will take something away; the more he insists, the more will be removed from the budget. There has to be a higher cost to him if he fails to negotiate, which requires compromise. His idea of negotiation is to make demands, which is not negotiation. The only way to deal with this it to make his stance costly, and the only way to do that is to say that if he continues to make demands, the Dems will in turn make demands as well, and start removing his pet projects from the funding list.
9
The problem is if both sides come in with a preset list of what they want, as expected by their voters, all they can do clash in seeing who wins what. All of this is done with almost no regard for the actual problem just what sells.
If Trump was a business person as opposed a boss who gets his own way because, well he's the boss, he would work to implement a process such as many thousands of the Times readers see at work:
1. Describe and agree on the problem.
2. Determine the root causes of the problem.
3. Develop solutions address the problem.
4. Evaluate the solutions for effectiveness in solving the problem.
5. Apply a cost/benefit to the solutions
6. Select the solutions that provide the greatest benefit for the cost.
7. Implement the best solutions that fit within the budget and time constraints.
Rather than:
1. Select the solution.
2. Go to tax payer to pay for.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 of the problem is not solved.
And since we are not talking about an asteroid crashing into earth (or some other true emergency) allow the time necessary to find the best solutions without artificial time constraints.
2
The onus does not fall on Congress but on the wavering occupant of the presidency who does not keep his word.
A second shutdown would fall on the president and the Republicans, if they fail to override his veto and pass the appropriation bills already presented to them by the House.
10
I'm not a federal worker but I intend to protest in the event of another shutdown. My sign will say "I support federal workers. End the shutdown now."
7
The last few presidential elections have seen public meltdowns by politicians, pundits, pollsters and the media getting it so wrong.
First there was the meltdown over Hillary losing to Obama, then there was the meltdown over Romney losing to Obama and then there was the meltdown of Hillary losing again to Trump.
It will be interesting to see the meltdown when Trump wins reelection. So far my favorite on air meltdowns are Karl Rove and Rachel Maddow but 2020 may be a real winner. Americans are fed up with illegal immigration and the experts are as tone deaf as the experts who chose Jennifer Lopez to do a Motown tribute.
7
What disturbs me is that we might be witnessing a dissolution of democracy itself.
Trump has a vested interest in polarization. He wants any efforts at impeachment to be seen as political. The way to achieve this is to increase division between the two sides, Democrats versus Republicans, so that they will not be able to vote for impeachment based upon evidence of criminal wrong-doing, but rather will vote along party lines.
Republicans saw what happened in the confirmation hearings of Brett Kavanaugh.
Arguing that women can never lie, the Kavanaugh confirmation was turned into what appeared to be a trial for attempted rape, based upon a charge from 35 years ago for an event that had allegedly occurred when Kavanaugh was in high school.
But in an actual trial, the evidence would have been found insufficient, and Kavanaugh would have been declared not guilty.
This did not prevent Senators from voting essentially along party lines to deny confirmation. The problem is that the reasons seemed to be that Kavanaugh was not fit to serve. The legitimate reason, that Senators disagreed with Kavanaugh's positions on abortion, was overwhelmed by the inflammatory charges.
Trump hopes that Republican Senators will remember when they are called upon to vote to remove Trump from office.
With the country divided along party lines, each side vowing allegiance to its own in-group, the vote to remove Trump will appear political. And Republicans will have cover to not replace Trump.
1
@Jake Wagner = Arguing that women can never lie,
That was not what was argued.
3
Quick — pass a law that in any future (including immediate future) U.S. government shutdown the government will prohibit payment of any salary, stipend, travel or other personal reimbursement to any and all members of congress or members of the Executive Branch for the full period of the shutdown. The bill would prohibit any claim or future payment for salaries lost during the shutdown, and would absolve the government of all claims for damages or expenses incurred as a result of the shutdown.
It’s the very least these noble public servants can do for their country, since this is what millions of Americans at the lower end of the income scale endured during the recent shutdown (without so much as an apology from the president). I suspect passage of the law might inspire members of congress, plus the president's cabinet and staff, to work just a wee bit harder to prevent another childish and ridiculous shutdown. All members of congress and especially the Executive Branch need to experience the pain of low-income Americans caused by a presidential snit.
7
@Eyes Wide Open
Yes, how magnanimous of the supposed billionaire not taking a $400k salary. That would be the equivalent of someone who makes $50k a year donating $20 to charity.
Members of Congress should include Hannity, Limbaugh and Coulter in the negotiations. They seem to have the final say in what Trump agrees to.
10
@terryg -
In fact they compete to be "Shadow President of the Day". Trump takes the orders from the one who wins each day.
2
Republicans could have forced through funding for the wall in the preceding two years but decided the tax cut was their priority. They know who pays the bills and funds their elections. That’s politics. Democrats won elected office in the midterms and now wield a majority in the House. Democrats may withhold funding for the “wall” for whatever reason. That’s politics. Fighting the wall is our Vietnam...
6
People seem to be ignoring the person who is permitting the President to act like a child: Mitch McConnell, the leader of the Senate. He has said, more than once, that he will not allow a bill onto the floor of the Senate if Trump won't sign it. There is enough support for passing a Continuing Resolution in both houses to override a veto, but not if the Senate can't vote on the bill.
Obstructing the functioning of the government is not what I would want to be remembered for, but some people don't seem to be bothered by the label of obstructionist. Using procedure to obtain a desired outcome runs the risk of that procedure being changed, for good or for bad. The filibuster has already been severely restricted because of abuse, and we might see the majority leader's power diminished in the interest of getting legislation onto the floor for consideration.
There are too many people in this country who are convinced that immigration is destroying the country to ignore any longer. Right or wrong, we need to show that we can control our borders. Technology can provide much greater control than a simple barrier.
The biggest problem is there are too many people like Mr. Trump, who are willing to hire illegals because they can get them to work for less than legal wages.
12
After the recent shutdown all the politicians and pundits were saying it wouldn't happen again. The Dems were cheering and congratulating themselves because they had put Trump in his place. They were going to pass legislation ensuring that the government could never be shut down again. Blah, blah, blah. Do any of our politicians and so called expert pundits and cable news panelists really know what they are doing or talking about? Our government is more dysfunctional than ever. We are really hurting for competent leadership both in the executive and legislative branches. I know, Trump and the Republicans and their supporters have created all this mess but so far our new Democratic House hasn't been able to make any headway in changing course.
1
If there is another shutdown, we should get a new congress and a new president. It is time to have adults as our leaders. We need people in Washington who know the meaning and practice of Governing.
3
Who cares about the wall? I care about: The Federation of American Scientists estimates that Russia possesses 4,350 nuclear warheads, while the United States has 3,800; Russia has 1,600 active strategic nuclear warheads, compared with the United States having 1,600.
And, Russia is live testing cyber weapons. AND, they got chemical weapons.
5
I'm not sure how the world can end again after ending during the first shutdown, or Shutdown TOS. Government workers thrown out of their homes and starving in the streets, planes falling from the skies, unsafe food poisoning millions, parks left without rangers telling you where you can't walk, delayed reports informing us that this shutdown was the third-warmest shutdown on record...whatever happened to all those victims? They, like Caravan One, seem to have melted away.
4
I'm concerned about the Democrats choosing to fight over the number of ICE detention beds. However right one may feel this to be, I doubt it's an issue that resounds with most Americans.
I believe they might be able to understand that, despite Trump and his supporters, the wall is a waste of money that could be better used elsewhere by the government but fighting over ICE beds will probably resound with few Americans.
I wish that the Dems would choose to fight over issue of greater importance to most Americans such as climate change, healthcare availability, and gun control. These are things worth shutting the government down.
I fear that this is just giving Trump a fat pitch right down the middle that he can easily hit out of the park (metaphor used in honor of the opening of spring training).
10
Now, I understand both sides of the aisle, yet let me just comment on Government shutdowns. It should be made illegal. There should be a law passed that no matter what, no one can shut down the government in year 2019. It's unnecessary and indecent in this day and age. It should not be done by any President, no matter the party and that's all I have to say about that.
5
as the older lady in the commercial use to ask "where is the beef'? if trump does go the emergency crisis route, that's what the Judges will as " where is the emergency crisis, and why did it take you two years"? both very good questions. trumps answer, I promised my base, and now I need to deliver, so they will vote for me again in 2020.
3
If Congress can't find a way to finance a 10% addition to current fencing, I suggest removing all fencing from California's border and moving it where it is needed. That would help prevent illegal crossings and make N. Pelosi happy too!
4
I haven't kept up with the latest negotiations on border security but I do think the Democrats need to compromise on some points. Otherwise they will lose some of the support that led to the gains in the mid-terms and possibly strengthen support for the Republicans and Trump. The border has dominated political debate for many months now, but there are many other important issues to deal with.
7
@Andrew barrage Trump with the other important issues, and don’t compromise. Let those important issues dominate not only the political debate, but the news cycle CONSTANTLY to drown out Trump’s noise.
1
I'm a shepherd, trying to sell my farm. My prospective buyers, a family of organic growers, are seeking FHA financing. The last government shutdown stalled their purchase process. The prospect of another shutdown at the end of this week is disheartening. The effects of a government shutdown are real, and reach into places you might not expect. I'll be on the phone to the offices of my elected officials today, and I hope others will be too.
23
I am made aware, the NY Times does not publish what I say and communicate to the newspaper, verbatim while publishing my photograph as well as name and address and my status as Emperor of the Universe.
Why then, does the newspaper, do this, in the middle of what it insists are balanced and fair articles about the activities as well as the claims made by that character deeming himself "President of the United States", giving his full name and alleged title? What has he got that I haven't?!
I KNOW that I am right-I am almost always right, even when I am wrong, as well as good. And , I am aware that the Powers know this- why not the staff , at the NYTimes refuse to recognize my infallibility?
I'm in the right and on the right side of issues- more then the organized religions and other similary imagined deities.
I am here-'extant', & no one may deny I am the one avatar of supernatural power in existence?
So, why for Donald Trump gets quoted in full?
Simply for making ignorant and ill informed, inevitably incorrect statements?
Every time your organ does this-quoting the "big dummy", as though he was without sin and not to be questioned nor doubted, they give him credibility he does not deserve . . .
If Trump is desirous to be among the elect, let him cease pandering to the Soviet military government and slavishly doing his Bugs Bunny imitations to his minuscule number of ignorant believers!
I have spoken-Hear me and act to obey!
Meloop
14
Your infallibleness, thou hast said it.
I'll come right out and say the obvious,
what many Repubs shy away from saying
because they know that they will be stupidly accused
by the NYT and other MSM that they have no "compassion" and are "hateful" and are -- horrors!!-- "xenophobes":
I do not want to have hundreds of millions of the world's seven billion -- not even "hungry and tired families with walking sticks and backpacks" -- flooding our hospital ERs, schools, roads and parks -- and that is what will happen if Dems keep on gutting serious immigration control.
Go ahead and call me those names -- or worse -- it's easy.
But it won't change the reality.
So, get yourself ready to live, right here in the USA,
just like they live in wildly overcrowded, polluted places like Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Rio de Jiniero, Dacca, Kolcutta, Mumbai, Manila, Jakarta, Lagos and Kinshasha.
Already, during the past 50 years, the USA population has doubled, driven mostly by massive immigration.
We don't need more people.
19
But the Democrats have a plan that they think will be more effective than a wall: man power and technology. Try listening.
8
@sam finn
"Already, during the past 50 years, the USA population has doubled, driven mostly by massive immigration."
Incorrect...reality is in the link:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/30/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/
5
I'm not anti-immigrant (my mother is an immigrant, my wife is also an immigrant), but there needs to be controls. Unimpeded immigration is going to be disastrous. As it is, my medical insurance is basically extortion, to cover all the uninsured illegals that we are ALL forced to cover. Yet I get NOTHING for free. I don't want anything for free, but they are getting a LOT for free, and I'm tired of paying for it. How about we ALL start driving uninsured, unlicensed? How about we put 10 houses, on every block, with 35 people living in each one? Maybe 20 cars for each house. It is happening here in this Sanctuary City. Highest hit and run statistics in the country. Yet some want to just let them do whatever, so they can make money off them.
11
I don't think vital government workers who keep our airports open and safe and the planes flying are going to allow themselves to be forced to work without pay again. They simply won't come to work--and I hope they don't because having no air travel will put a quick end to Trump's shutdown. Instead, I expect Trump will try his national emergency declaration. I can't imagine all the consequences that move will have for all of us. Elections matter. I hope the 2016 and the 2018 results have taught us that if nothing else.
20
A writer below is complaining how we have not heard from DHS, INS or other border security folks.
No, we have heard if you followed POTUS town halls with them or even DHS secretary briefing the cabinet from a "remote location" via tv while POTUS and his cabinet listened.
She was giving a similar briefing to Madame Speaker and other congressional leaders in the Oval office.
Madame Speaker brusquely interrupted her by telling she does not need Secretary's facts.
Credit to the Secretary - she shot back "Madame Speaker - these are not my facts - they are facts. "
So, if you have followed Cspan and NYT reports the specialists have indeed briefed Congress.
But when you have an opinion on "immoral walls" - no facts can help.
What do they say - don't confuse me with facts.
18
@Neil Exactly. Well said.
4
@Neil Facts depend on who collected them, through what means, etc. Life should have taught you that. And photos do lie. And check with law enforcement about the faliability of eyewitness reports. Maybe watch the film Rashomon.
1
@Neil -
Lies and misleading statements from an administration built on lies that represent them as "facts" doesn't make them facts.
If you followed the fact checking on DHS reports you'd know what these "facts" are.
If the US needs to stop illegal immigration, Congress should vote to repeal the 1965 immigration act and ban immigration from South America.
7
And so begins the long road to ensuring a Republican president in 2020, with the Democrats unable to compromise among themselves.
12
Something like this happened a decade ago when Democrats refused to allow any ideas from Republicans about how to improve healthcare. Republicans wanted for example, to allow interstate competition for healthcare insurance and to control prescription drug costs. Democrats in the Senate instead argued amongst themselves for 6 months about whose special interests would be taken care of. When Democrats lost a Senate seat to a Republican, they decided to accept, without charges, what the House had passed months earlier. Voters apparently were upset with Obamacare and voted out of office huge numbers of Democrats.
2
@Richard Winchester - "Democrats refused to allow any ideas from Republicans about how to improve healthcare."
That has to be called out as simply as it is. A lie.
But for all the Republican input and changes made to appease them, for which they chose not to vote in the end, we would have had health care that actually worked.
1
Please ask our republican Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin , the Chairman of the Homeland Security committee, about the lack of oversight hearings regarding what is necessary to provide true border protection. Johnson has irresponsibly neglected his duties of oversight.
With three offices in Wisconsin, no staff members answer the phone. We are encouraged to leave voice mail comments that never get a response! Where's Waldo anyway?
14
@BAB: Sounds like Ted Cruz's offices down in Texas! He makes sure that he never has to hear from his constituents merely by operating an understaffed and totally disorganized organization.
2
While politics is usually myopic, this era of government shutdowns (or threats thereof) and Trump palace intrigue puts that in a new light. And this is arguably a trend since the Gingrich 90s. Solving some of our country's/the world's greatest problems need intricate, comprehensive planning and debate. Instead of having national discussions about climate change, gun violence, nuclear proliferation, automation, healthcare, income and wealth inequality (the list goes on), we are stuck attempting to negotiate with a man who consistently uses lies and fear-tactics to whip up support for a completely unnecessary and absurd project and a party that has shown it will do little to challenge him or push back against his dehumanization of people fleeing violence and poverty. And the threat of a shutdown looms over almost every budget we pass. So we fund the government for three weeks, a few months, only to be brought to the brink again. In a time where we need to be having real, urgent discussions, we are left bargaining over how many beds may be used for detained people and the money to allocate for a hyperbolized threat which will not be solved by a wall.
9
Democrats should change the discussion on from The Wall to E-Verify. Limiting illegal employment, rather than border crossings is the way to go. The Wall is a political cash cow for Trump. Mandatory E-Verify can end its power.
E-Verify is a national system currently used by 400,000 US employers to check to see if an employee is legally able to work in the US. E-Verity is now voluntary. Make is mandatory!
By using an effective system to combat illegal employment, we can go easier on border enforcement.
Anyone sincerely interested in limiting illegal entry into the US should be willing to support mandatory E-Verify. Those who still want a stream of cheap, vulnerable labor will show their true colors by not supporting it. Trump properties have used such labor. Call him out and demand he support E-Verify.
And E-Verify is non-disciminatory. There is no racial profiling.
30
This...
Trump will build the wall and he will be re-elected.
8
The bipartisan talks need to have feedback from experts in Home Security. Their recommendations should be seriously considered.
Breaking the talks on detention of illegals is pathetic. Why should they not be detained?
9
Memo to Trump, Miller, McConnell and the rest of the Republican party: shut down the government: "Go ahead, make my day." Three weeks ago unpaid air traffic controllers, TSA officers, IRS employees and others started calling in sick in escalating numbers. Lo and behold, the next day Trump and his lackeys suddenly folded. Shut the government down again, and as Trump likes to say, "believe me", you ain't seen nothing yet.
5
Isn't it strange that the correlating chant to "Build that Wall" has all but been forgotten?
You remember the one. First Trump yells to the crowd: "And who's going to pay for it?" Whereupon the "Deplorables"--sorry, but Hillary was right about that--would respond: "Mexico!
There's you answer, Democrats. Just tell Trump, "When the check arrives from Mexico, then we will start construction of the wall.
12
The Democrats demand that ICE limit the number of illegal immigrants they can detain is utterly foolish and politically naive. Despite our disagreement with the President's policy of going after all undocumented immigrants, threatening to put government workers out of work in order to protect people here illegally (even good, hard-working people I'd want as neighbors) just plays into Trump's hands. We have embarrassed the president, exposed the foolishness of his wall, and saved the tax-payers $3 billion. That's a solid triple. Be happy with that. Don't try to stretch it into a home run and get tagged out at the plate. We need to box smart if we're going to win the real goal - a Democratic president in 2020 who can reverse Trump's immigration policy.
18
@Joe Sweeney. How have “we” embarrassed the president, “exposed the foolishness of his wall, and saved tax-payers 3 billion.”
Illegal immigration costs Americans 140 billion a year. Walls work. And are cost effective.
1
I don't understand all the issues, but I think I agree. I'm tired of the practice of attaching a bunch of barely related, controversial amendments to a popular bill just to get them passed. It shouldn't be allowed. I see this detention bed thing the same way. ICE might be doing bad things to good people, but can't we deal with that as a separate issue? Our government is barely able to do even one thing at a time as it is!
6
@Olivia By "we" I was speaking of Democrats. The president was embarrassed by failing to get his wall despite shutting down the government. Most Americans oppose the wall and see it as a waste of money that will not put a dent in the drug trade or stop many illegal immigrants from coming to America - especially when numbers are already historically low. We saved $3B since they are now talking about $2B for border security instead of $5B. And I disagree with your $140B claim.
I am a a Democrat however I fear they with demands beyond their original position will cause a shut down and they will be blamed for it.
This will give the Republicans in many key races the ammunition they need .
Democrats have to realize that in order to achieve their laudable goals , health care for all, infrastructure renewal, a globally competitive education system , reduction of income inequality, a green deal they first have to govern and that means winning the White House , the Senate and keeping the House in 2020
That means winning over fair minded independents.
6
Is this the "brexit" of the US? Will this inane and emotionally unhealthy obsession with Hispanic people tank the government? Where is Mitch McConnell in this? Both Houses of Congress can over ride the President, if one remembers middle school civics. Focus on his role in this shutdown. Closing government has real consequences for real people, but it must make some in the Trump Administration happy, which is the point. Does it make McConnell happy, along with uninformed Senate Republicans? Steve Bannon hoped to break things, Steven Miller hopes to resurrect the ghosts of fascists past, but the media goes light on this administration time and time again.
4
All it takes is for air traffic controllers to call in sick, No air travel in the US, end of Trump's grandstanding,
Easy Peasy,
11
If the President waits for more than 2 years to act on an emergency, was it an emergency?
14
@Blue in Green Nope. that's how any future Judges would rule, if it goes that far. as the older lady use to say in the commercial "where's the beef; that's what the Judges will ask," where was the emergency, if it took two years"?
1
compromise ??? what does trump offer ?
6
Struck by the paragraph saying McConnell and leadership frustrated by Democrats because it appears to be the usual bothsiderism nonsense the Times peddled when it was working to get Trump elected. But I can’t tell because I can’t tell who “they” refers to. If it’s Republican leadership that believed it persuaded Trump to compromise than being frustrated with Democrats makes no sense since Democrats aren’t doing anything in the sentence. If “they” means Democrats was the sentence seems to be saying that Democrats believed they had persuaded Trump to compromise and yet then it doesn’t make sense either because Republican leadership is worried about Stephen Miller monkeywrenching the compromise. Oh, you know what? Democrats don’t make sense in that sentence no matter what, it’s just reflexive Democrat-blaming. Times Editors don’t even notice that anymore.
2
The administration is detrimental to America and needs to be fired, en masse, pronto.
6
Today Trump will hold his "build the wall!" rally in El Paso. He will be met with Texan Beto O'Rourke's border rally against the wall. The fire and fury outcome and fallout from these two tribal rallies may point the way to Trump shutting down our government -- again -- to fund his demented border wall. What happens in Texas doesn't stay in Texas.
2
How easily some forget the Trump promise:
“We are building a wall. It’s going to be a big, beautiful wall. And Mexico is going to pay for it.”
To this day, Trump is still declaring his cowardice for all the world to see—by not calling his Mexican counterpart and asking for the money.
Which beggars two questions:
1-Why is he afraid of the Mexican president?
2-How must Trump voters feel to be reminded on a daily basis that they voted for a coward?
8
@Opinioned!
And not one them says "Hey, Mr. President you said I wouldn't have to pay for the wall. What gives."
It seems to prove they knew he was lying when he made the promise or they don't care. As long as Trump wants they figure the blue states will pay for it like they did the "tax cuts".
Again, it's worth noting that every expert on border security say's there is no problem at the border (that this administration didn't create) and that every stat related to border security are at decades low marks.
Drugs coming in... decades low mark...
Illegals coming in... decades low mark...
Both stats are around 1/5th of the stats under Bush Jr...
---
These articles always come out as a "he-said, she-said" and generally ignore the fact that regardless of what either side is saying, THERE IS NO PROBLEM.
Please, don't ignore the stats and facts when you write these articles of what everyone is saying...
12
If there’s “no problem” there wouldn’t be enough illegal immigrants to fill all those detention beds and the Democrats point would be moot...
3
@JP: Well, if the Republicans would quit incarcerating asylum seekers, and just hire enough administrative personnel to deal with their cases, then beds for prisoners wouldn't be an issue, would it? As long as Republicans insist upon imprisoning people who are legally applying for asylum, we're going to have to pay to shelter them.
1
There is no way he will be able to make a good case about "the wall' being the solution for a national crisis, because there is no national crisis. During his heralded State of Union Address (according to the polls his approval ratings were high) though he spoke in a convincing manner his facts were more often not true. During a presentation to judges he cannot lie like he is accustomed to doing. What his base believes is not the key here.
4
Democrats don’t like current immigration laws so their solution is to flout them.
4
@God: Oh, yes! Finally, I get to roll my eyes at God in Heaven! Please. Democrats have been enforcing immigration laws for years. Obama's administration had a better deportation and arrest record than any previous Republican government. God, you need better representatives on earth. They're feeding you disinformation. Or have you been tuning in to Rupert Murdoch's Faux News during your "executive time," too?
1
I hate to be the one SANE voice in the shouting going on here........I'm probably not the best qualified for that.
But here it is anyway.
#1...the Senate funds boondoggle projects for themselves...every year. Worthless projects whose only purpose is to funnel more money into their states and their re-election campaign funds.
#2.....Everyone knows 5Billion aint gonna build a Wall clear across America.
#3.....$5billiion is a drop in the bucket of a 5TRILLION dollar budget ...that we all know will be ignored anyway.
Why are the Democrat Senators attempting to destroy America?.....all for the narrow purpose of making the President look bad, so they erroneously think they can impeach and remove him?
This is Insanity.........on the DNC Political Machines' part.........NOT Trump's.
2
Maybe Congress should just pass a comprehensive immigration bill and Trump should enforce it. Or is it just too much to ask that our bonehead government do its job?
4
Trump wants to help all his private prison owners and developer cronies flourish in their lucrative businesses.
11
We must allow for political disagreement among honest people. But the key word is honest. Liars don't belong at the table even when they give us what we want. In the long run they will corrupt everything and everybody they touch.
8
They can remove the limit on the detention of undocumented immigrants but limit the arrests to murderers and rapists but not for traffic violations. Trump talks to his base, because they are getting restless over the wall.
3
What makes me feel unsafe is the Governor of Texas and those who support him. Dreadful that his is the role model used by anyone. A Yankee in Texas
1
"Law abiding immigrants" contributing to our country. Welfare. Schools. Healthcare. But supposedly, in addition to stealing our resources, they pay mucho taxes! How? Can't pay taxes without social security number! Oh, they have a social security number? Whose?
Trump needs to focus less on a wall and more on getting rid of those already here.
4
Anyone who deliberately evaded sacrifice through deferments not once but five separate times in the Vietnam war, a cowardly draft dodger par excellence, is definitely not qualified to be commander-in-chief. trump’s priorities never included his own military service. In his eyes, serving was, as the phrase goes, for other people. Over 50,000 americans sacrificed their lives in that war as trump carried on his self-serving hedonistic life style immersing himself in the Manhattan party scene and cynically boasting that “fighting venereal disease was his Vietnam” with absolutely no regrets or second thoughts.
7
Allowing Trump to get away with his fictions and frivolous "national emergency" to build his Great Wall of Trump, should he pursue that course would be a dangerous precedent! What else will he declare as a "national emergency" to do something that Congress won't give him or just on some other fictions and frivolous whim, of which he has an over abundance of!
3
So much focus on questionable data re” criminals” crossing our borders. So little interest in documented 30,000- plus victims of gun violence in our own back yards, a minute fraction of which is caused by these “ criminal elements.” Why has nobody highlighted this hypocrisy?
5
Extreme bad faith on the part of the Democrats. They have poisoned the negotiations with demand that ICE be limited to 16,500 detentions. where does this number even come from. Trump would have taken $2Billion. Now the open border kill ICE crowd jumps in and shuts down the government.
4
Trump's idea of negotiation is to hold the American people hostage to suffer along without an acting government. All that for a useless and expensive wall. He obviously needs to be removed from an office that is way above his head. The Constitution authorizes Congress to appropriate funding, not the president. Since Trump doesn't read, he might not know that.
1
Let us end this nightmare and remove Trump from office.
6
It’s not about truth for Trump. It’s about untruth as a negotiation tactic for his base. His base is not the American majority. So, let’s hope that in Washington the voice of the majority prevails. Immigrants built this country. The vast majority of Americans have immigrant blood in them. I do. I have my grandfather’s naturalization papers. He was a shoemaker not a criminal. He raised 7 children during the depression and with the guidance of my mother (grandma died at 38), they all went on to have families and multiple children none of which were criminals; all of which contributed to America’s growth. The data shows Trupm’s rhetoric is mostly not true or misrepresented. The methods he threatens, to get the wall he promised his base are unorthodox, should the majority craft compromise legislation. The “great negotiator”. Is playing Russian negotiation 101. Which is code for, start really low, dash expectations, and hope to come out with a win that looks like “I got, you gave”. Think of the absurdity, one person has millions of people and dozens of government agencies scrambling and in fear of failure. Leaders bring out the power of people. Bullies crush a person’s spirit. Yet truth be known bullies often are insecure cowards. “Johnson, Regan, Eisenhower, Truman, Roosevelt where have you gone? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you”
3
This Wall, a Wall predicated on lies and racism about Mexican and South American immigrants, must not be built.
Trump defies his own heads of Intelligence and Security, who have testified before Congress that Mexico is no threat to national security.
Trump is abusing his Executive Power by declaring a National Emergency, when none exists. He must be stopped.
He is not Constitutionally authorized to dip into "pots of money" at his whim, as only Congress has the power of the purse.
He's not Constitutionally authorized to deploy troops without a Congressional vote.
Congress has not approved these actions.
Trump's base, and that of Congressional Republicans, represents only 34% of the electorate. That means they refuse to represent 66% of voters.
Their base is replete with racist, sexist, ageist, xenophobes, shows a distinct lack of critical thinking skills, votes by belief, not fact.
Fortunately, the Democrats' plan for border security is based on logic, and what border workers claim they need.
Ideally, an invisible high-tech wall with sensors detecting border crossings, drones to add "eyes" to the border patrol, high tech scanning machines to detect drugs at points of entry, and more hires to process paperwork.
The number of criminals entering the U.S. is low. There is no need to detain women and children at the border. It violates U.S. immigration law.
Congress cannot continue to permit Trump's flagrant flaunting of the law and Constitution.
17
@Lilou It will be built.
2
@Olivia--since our own heads of the FBI, CIA and Homeland Security, in their annual "Worldwide Security Threats" report testified before the Senate that Mexico poses no security threat to the U.S., it is logical to conclude that there is no national emergency at the border.
With no national emergency there, Trump cannot use his Executive Powers to declare one. If he does, he can be overruled by a 2/3 majority in each House.
The House of Representatives will veto. Senate Republicans, if they follow their 2-yesr pattern of lazily letting Trump do as he wishes, without a thought to the fact that it's the Legislature's duty to control our borders, control and vote on the budget, vote on troop deployment and represent ALL Americans (evidently, Article I of the Constitution--their job description--has escaped their memory), will not veto.
Only 34% of the electorate comprise the Republican base--the majority of voters don't want the wall.
But as of yet, we have no cost estimates for a wall, no engineering studies, no geological reports, no design studies, no environmental impact reports, no cost estimate of land taken through eminent domain, no feedback from border communities.
$5.7 billion might build a mansion, or a small apartment complex. It will take more than10 times that amount for a wall.
Trump knows this and will keep shutting down the government, unconstitutionally, to get his billions incrementally,
unless stopped by Congress or the courts.
I hope the dedicated federal employees learned something from the 35-day shutdown: if you work as a slave, you owner/employer will continue to treat you as a slave.
Trump is treating ALL federal employees with contempt. When he shuts down the federal government to get his way, despite what The People want, he is acting like a tyrant, not a president.
Federal employees should support one another. The public will support federal employees who walkout in solidarity with their brothers and sisters who are shut out.
If federal employees stand up and say "we are not slaves and will not be treated as slaves," the nation will rally to their side.
Don't expect Trump to care, but some Republicans in Congress will have to care if they want to stay in Congress. Even McConnell will have to stop pretending he is not responsible for the first shutdown; he could work with Democrats to keep the government open. The question is, will he side with Trump, lose his congressional seat and live in infamy, or do what is right for America?
If federal employees walk out in support of those who are shut out, the nation's commerce will come to a screeching halt. Wealthy Republican and corporate donors will not like it. It will affect their pockets, not just federal employees' pockets. That's when Republicans in Congress will be ordered to end the shutdown. Ordered by their true owners, the wealthy.
Prepare to walk out. Real Americans will walk with you.
8
@JABarry Yeah, but real Americans won’t make their rent, house or car payments.
@JABarry
"Real Americans"is that just another name for people that agree with your political view? You sound like a socialist democrat...
Internal Congressional Politics are driving the border security debate and it appears the Democrats want only one thing, a porous border. Their current demand of fewer beds to limit the detention of undocumented immigrants leaves the question open to what becomes of those immigrants once we run out of beds. I suggest to all that this is just a means of getting back to the 'catch and release' program the Dems favor.
I have neither heard nor read of any reports where the Democrats have consulted with nor rely upon current and factual recommendations from ICE, Home Land Security, etc. ; in order for their desires to be supported by the people the Dems should be relying on and forming security plans and needs from recommendations from the experts which they are not.
4
Professors at Yale recently published a study estimating there are now 22 million illegal immigrants in the US, not the widely quoted 12 million. ICE recommends a wall on parts of the border as an effective means of preventing people from sneaking over. $5.7 billion is a blip on a federal budget of $4.07 trillion. Do Democrats really care about border security or is it more important for them to score a political victory over Trump?
6
Trump and the republican controlled congress for the last two years had no intention of building "wall". They purposely waited to see if the Dems would control one or both houses so they can bring up "wall" as part of border security now with two years prior to the 2020 election so they can portray the Dems as weak border security, etc. This is all political games by the GOP to maintain control of power by conservative white males.
10
Democrats keep throwing a wrench in the compromise discussions. The latest, an absurd demand to reduce the beds in the detention centers that hold illegal immigrants with criminal records.
It is clear that Democrats don't care about the safety of American citizens. Border patrol agents all agree that a border barrier (steel fence) is necessary in addition to high-technological security gadgets and additional patrol agents.
This last minute demand is just another political ploy to prevent Present Trump from fulfilling his promise to not only build a wall - something Democrats voted for before his presidency - but to keep our country safer.
6
...safety of American citizens...from whom? Those who want American dish-washing, vegetable- and fruit-picking jobs that our citizens don’t want?
2
@Miriam The notion of jobs Americans don't want is a misnomer. It should be read as "Jobs American employers want because they can avoid a century's worth of labor laws--low wages, no representation, scared beholden workers, and the list goes on..."
1
So the government and the people of the United States are once again haggling over a wall that few want and that won't be effective under the circumstances. At the whim of Trump, thousands of soldiers and sent there for no good reason and at high cost and waste of their time. Other resources are being plundered to pay for this wall and the government may well be shut down, again. This is crazy.
Find out what the experts advise for state of the art border security and keep politics out of this. Everyone has better things to do and this is tearing us apart.
8
@gf Stop the fake news. Border patrol agents have said repeatedly that a wall is necessary!
4
@MCH
I didn't say no wall - I said state of the art security which may include drones, cameras and and other security measures as well as a wall in some areas. A wall the entire border is a bad and simplistic plan.
The real issue is immigration policy and the energies of congress should be directed there rather than squabbling over this.
Okay, here's the deal: Pres. Trump will decrease the number of ICE detention beds, settle on $2.4 billion for wall funding, and sign a clean CR covering the rest of the fiscal year; deal?
@batazoid No deal.
2
If a person breaks the law and is in the U.S. illegally, how can they be considered law-abiding residents? Most people can name more than one illegal who has been here for many years and does quite well in the cash economy and gets free health care at ERs, free schools for their children, and all sorts of other benefits from well-meaning charities. Immigration is good, if it is done in an orderly way. Think Ellis Island and how many of us had their ancestors processed by that facility and arrived in NYC with none of the benefits illegals get today. And they integrated, made English their primary language, and did quite well in the subsequent years. There was no press 2 for Spanish in those days.
"Democrats say a cap of 16,500 beds in ICE detention centers would force the Trump administration to focus on detaining undocumented immigrants with criminal records instead of using indiscriminate sweeps that drag in otherwise LAW-ABIDING RESIDENTS."
16
Sorry folks but the Democrats will own this. Specifically, Leader (not) Pelosi will own this. Oh, and I like many will make sure the ownership tag stays with Pelosi. How hypocritical with AOC and the Liberal branch of the Party talking of spending TRILLIONS on socialist ides and they can't pay $5.7 Billion to protect us citizens. Oh well, it is going to be another four more years with this attitude!
16
Trump and the GOP will try to blame Democrats for a second shutdown but We The People need remember only one fact and ask one simple question.
Fact: For 2 years, the GOP controlled both houses of Congress and NEVER offered Trump a budget with money for his wall AND Trump never shut down America. Question: So why now?
Trump has held American taxpayers hostage over funding for his wall and may do it again, even though the GOP knows it will be another political disaster. Trump's first shutdown government cost our economy far more than his demand for $5.7 Billion. All that nonsense so he could suggest to his dwindling MAGA base that he achieved a campaign promise.
It's telling that the MAGA (willingly?) forget Trump promised them Mexico would pay. It's also telling that they are even gullible now considering Trump is asking them as taxpayers to pay for his vanity project. Literally.
11
@Question Everything Nice try however it was Pelosi that said “open the Government and we can talk”. It’s been two weeks and not one meeting by “leader” Pelosi. She and the Democrats will own any shutdown. The Dems drape themselves on AOC and her ideas costing Trillions while they refuse to protect us for $5.7 billion. Thanks for giving Trump four more years!
5
@Question Everything Stop with the "WE the PEOPLE" drama. What WE remember is that Democrats are tolerant of criminals entering and staying in the country. Fact: Republicans could not get the 60 votes required in the Senate because no Democrat would stand up for enforcing the law. What do YOU plan to do with the thousands entering the country illegally? Do you think this is a skilled labor force heading our way???????
4
11 million live here illegally. The illegals problem can be solved with secure identification (E-Verify) and strong punishment for employers who don't require it. The reason that we haven't done this has nothing to do with a wall; it's because businesses like the cheap illegal labor.
31
@Garraty According to a recent Yale/MIT study, there are 22 - 30 million illegals here.
3
@Olivia
It would be useful to find out the percentage that entered the across the section of the border with Mexico that is Trump's obsession.
4
@cheryl. According to Customs and Border Control, more than 396,000 people were apprehended at the border in 2018.
1
What I don’t remember seeing during any of this debate is a report from experts in border security. Perhaps that is because the Congress has not held hearings. Where is the Department of Homeland Security or the Border Patrol and what these experts believe is best for border security? Is no one paying attention to those who are experts and actually know the facts and the best solution? We can do better.
201
@Bob
The expert testimony, which the Democrats ignored, was held behind closed doors.
5
@batazoid Shame on them for not using what they were barred from having!
13
@batazoid I never heard about that. Can you provide a source?
18
I've been back at work for two weeks now and am only three weeks behind on my workload. Guess next Monday I'll be home again, on the dole.
6
They can't cut a deal because....they can't agree on the number of detention beds?????
Sheesh! How hard is it to find the "minimum" Republicans will accept, the "maximum" Democrats will accept, then find a number in between both that they both admit they hate and agree on that? And it's going to crash and burn on that, when the hard stuff is done?
Don't worry about a Trumpian veto if there is bi-partisan agreement and the bill passes in both Houses. If he vetoes it, he OWNS the crisis, which he always did because he manufactured it to rile up his base. If Congress agrees on a solution, and he doesn't, it's clearly, totally on him, on his autocratic "I AM the Law!" attitude against the Constitution.
Sausage and law making!
7
trump needs to go on national tv and explain what happened to mexico paying for the wall. why is the country in such a divide over paying for something he said mexico is paying for?
14
"The impasse appears to center on Democratic demands for a limit on the number of unauthorized immigrants already in the country ..."
NONSENSE... the impasse is definitely centered on the GOP's reflexive support for their leader - Trump
7
This now has nothing to do with the wall. We are back to the fact that there is no path to citizenship for law abiding, undocumented immigrants. When will our legislators fix this?
7
Where are the unions? My understanding is that Federal workers belong to a union formed by AFL. The air traffic controllers formed a new union after Reagan closed the first. So where are they? Don't tell me they are afraid of getting Trump Twitter mocks.
1
The first shutdown hurt people who need SNAP benefits. The government found some money, and deposited these funds in January. This was the February benefit. Knowing that SNAP benefits are meager at best, we can expect many families to be short on food money this month. Consider a gift of love to the community food bank on Valentine's Day. Our most vulnerable citizens are going to be hungry in the depths of winter if we don't step up to help.
3
What disappoints in this reporting is that while the fissures in both parties are laid out, there is no consideration about the next st eps for the conference. Surely there are experts out there who know more about ICE than the average NYT reader about possibilities. For example, why would both sides not agree for now simply to take ICE off the table and pass a bill on wall spending. Why cant the GOP find a number on detention of felons that they could offer as a compromise figure. As much as I support AOC, I don't think that she or Pelosi want to be fingered as the people shutting down the government.
2
Is it possible to admit that both sides are completely insane at this point?
Why would the Democrats interfere with the detention of illegal immigrants? (Stop calling them "undocumented," that's a lie of omission and immediately destroys any pretense of journalistic objectivity.)
And on the Republican side, how does this merit the threat of a government shutdown?
I have never been so frustrated in my life, more by the stupidity of my own party than that of the Republicans, which I had come to take for granted.
12
Treatment of government workers by not allowing them paychecks over Donald Trump’s obsession is unthinkable and insane.
This is our country. We want our workers to be treated with respect. They’re not his pawns like everything else in his life. We want our workers to be allowed to work and bring home their paychecks. Now and always!
8
"One proposal circulating among some White House officials in an attempt to fend off legal challenges to an emergency declaration is to claim that the wall would be built to protect the more than 6,000 active-duty and National Guard troops now operating near the southwestern border or deploying there soon."
This is simply unbelievable: you send troops to the border to stop invaders and then you build a wall to protect those troops from those invaders. Much cheaper to just send the troops home!
6
There's a pattern in the Trump administration that revolves around the perpetuation of Alternate Facts.
Debating Border Security without evidence to support the most effective ways to monitor and protect the southern border.
Instead, confusing the public by providing scary parables and questionable data.
Denying Climate Change without acknowledging the overwhelming research supporting it. Instead, showing their ignorance by confusing long term climate change with seasonal weather patterns.
Refusing to confront Gun Violence or the NRA while going on camera to deliver thoughts and prayers to the families affected with each new shooting. Instead, continuing to defend the accumulation of personal arsenals as a 2nd Amendment constitutional right.
The Democratic Party needs to focus on these issues in the 2020 election. There is no excuse for a country as enlightened as ours to wallow in Alternate Facts.
6
As an outsider, I find Democrats’ demand to limit the number of undocumented immigrants already in the US detained by ICE, humane. They just want to target illegal migrants with criminal records and spare those who just have overstayed their visas, and are productive and pose no threat.
But if Trump listens to xenophobes like Stephen Miller, his senior adviser, and Anne Coulter, nothing that Democrats propose is acceptable.
Trump has backed away from his calls to make Mexico pay for a concrete wall but during his State of the Union speech last Tuesday he insisted on a "smart, strategic, see-through steel barrier". He said on Saturday that the wall would "get built one way or the other!"
Why can’t Democrats tell Trump that he and his supporters foot the bill? It is the only way to make them realise that they wouldn't need $5.7 bn to improve the already existing infrastructure. Fixing the asylum system, upgrading ports of entry, and tightening security checkpoints might do more to advance Trump’s goals than a wall.
5
Trumpdown 2.0
Republicans cannot govern. The are only there to support their super wealthy donors.
3
What is the liberal solution to our border and immigration problem? Say no to Trump's wall and fencing funds but keep 30% of the fencing and border walls we have? If Obama asked for the wall funding Dems would be like, "OK." This is 100% political, which perhaps some blame lays on Trump for demonizing immigrants. Dems have no solution really to immigration, they know most Americans want border security.
5
Trump continues to throw spanners into the workings of any negotiations. He is doing the opposite of what any reasonable president would do, because he's actively and publicly taking part in a discussion that will result in a Congressional decision. His job is to sign what they pass or not, and the more he interferes, the less likely he'll get the chance to do that.
1
With so many Dems announcing their 2020 intention and the mess in Virginia, one might think they are about to shoot themselves in the foot again - until the Repubs and Trump reassert themselves to show they are far worse. The Repubs hitch their fate to Trump will have repercussions for decades.
5
The Democrats should offer full support for the last bill that had sufficient bipartisan support to be passed and demand a bipartisan panel with one year to create a comprehensive immigration policy. The product of that commission could be presented in the same manner as the previous base closure committees: a vote must be yes or no with no modification to the bill. We were promised this in 1986 with immunity combined with enforcement. The enforcement never materialized. We need steady immigration for social (dying cities and towns), economic (a growing GDP) and business (low cost labor) reasons. Anyone who wants to come here should be allowed to after a screening process. Protectionism is never right whether it is for beef, steel, autos or labor. If a Ford assembly line worker in Mexico will do their job for $6/hr with no benefits, let them compete with UAW members who believe they’re somehow entitled to $26/hr plus gold plated benefits plus annual raises plus retirement.
2
" Democratic demands to limit the detention of undocumented immigrants"
This country won't be a country much longer. Illegal immigration has torn it apart.
18
I live in a border state, and your statement is completely false. If anything has torn this country apart it’s the right wing’s embrace of Donald Trump’s bigotry, dishonesty and demagoguery, and support despite his undeniable and obvious unfitness for the presidency (or any public office).
13
No, Donald J Trump is tearing this country apart. Which is what Putin got him elected to do. Sicko Stephen Miller is adding to the problem. Why isn’t trump adamant about his healthcare campaign promises? Or infrastructure?
5
@Kip I am not a Trump voter or a conservative, but I am sickened by the spectacle of American politicians who are more solicitous of illegal aliens than they are of their own voters.
1
We are in a war between the States. There is nothing civil about it. It will get bloody. It always does. In the beginning, it was a culture war. The children of immigrants have been the first casualties. They will not be the last. The troops are moving into position.
Our leaders stand around and chew their fingernails. This is how it works. This is how it happens. This is power unleashed. Americans are worried about their jobs and they should be. But you don't have jobs if there is no country to have them in. America is not unraveling. It is unraveled.
The last time this happened, every family felt the bite. People had to choose what side they were on. Immigrants are the slaves. In every situation like this on the planet, it will be decided by the military. They, too, will have to choose. To not decide is to choose. But the status quo will not stand, and it doesn't matter if American government shuts down because the American government has been shut down for the past two years.
Our insistence that it is a government that functions is sadly mistaken, sadly false, and sadly beneath contempt. We do not have shared values. We do not have cherished traditions. Our principles are not governed by the rule of law. What we have is a confederacy of conspirators who have allied themselves with a foreign country.
Americans will insist that it's not too late to take it back. If it's not too late to take it back, then how did we get here in the first place. Only one man matters.
7
My suggestion would be to have the TSA, Coast Guard and other essential federal employees stay home on the first day of the shutdown. The shutdown will last one day. Did you notice that once air traffic started to be affected the last time it ended almost instantly.
20
@FXQ
You've got it.
1
Democrats demand for "catch-and-release" effectively turns every city into a sanctuary city. To demand this at such a late stage in the negotiations demonstrates democrats are not serious about a compromise.
I don't know what is happening in the Democratic Party right now, but it's incapable of negotiating a deal. The president remains the grown up in the room. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a serious negotiating partner.
13
No, the democrats are not insisting on catch and release, they want to limit beds in holding centers to 16,000- so they do go after criminals. Trump is ignorant and certainly not a patriot! He has no clue about our constitution or how our government works. His golf courses have plenty of illegals. I strongly suspect he himself is a criminal. Let’s see his tax returns shall we?
2
Can we shut down the president instead of the rest of the government? I think that it would make the majority of Americans happy.
41
I saw a video of the drone operators flying the border. They do not wear border patrol uniforms. They wear US Army uniforms. There are enormous towers along the border emitting who knows what and operated by who knows who. Are the emissions affecting Americans living near the border? Does anyone care? The victims in this are not just the immigrants trying to get in, it is the people near the border who are living in the new East or West Berlin. I can't tell. Too much smoke and mirrors too little investigation by reliable sources.
The people who are worried about immigrants who work for less money than Americans, should be worried about immigrants in private prisons working for $0 money. They too are taking American jobs. How long are even the legitimate corporations going to pass up this mostly tax payer funded free labor.
3
PROTEST, march, starting now. Don't wait til part of the Govt is shut down again.
5
Naaaa, I need to go to work today.
We're the ones who pay the taxes.
2
We need the flight attendants to strike immediately and put an end to this. This administration is a threat to the well being of the entire country.
17
A year ago, both parties were close to a compromise deal that provided $25 billion for border security in exchange for a path to citizenship for Dreamers. Democrats shouldn't accept less than that now. Are any details available on exactly what concessions the GOP has offered Democrats in exchange for wall funding?
8
I agree ... and if I were a Dreamer, I’d never vote Democrat again. ... I am a Democrat and now I’m barely that. No excuse for shutting down the government.
4
@Elizabeth Cook Donald Trump nixed the deal last year, not Democrats. And Trump shut the government down, not Democrats.
3
Frankly, the Trump Administration has proven itself so sociopathic that I don't see any reason to believe such a cap would work as intended. As sickening as it is, I could easily see Trump responding to an ICE detention cap by ordering that ONLY otherwise law-abiding immigrants be detained, just to spite Democrats and hurt innocent people.
13
Maybe Fox News can pay for the wall. Vox has an article about immigrants helping to keep social security afloat, so maybe Fox can pay for that as well. That’s assuming that a wall would keep people out.
8
Last summer Democrats were willing to give some $20 billion for border security in return for protection of Dreamers. Trump first agreed, and then he reneged.
It is all about Trump's demands. Nothing for Democrats that would constitute a "deal". As is well known, the Republicans and Trump did not previously request wall funding in their budgets; less than 10% of the initial moneys were ever spent; and no detailed plans have been developed.
Trump wants to militarize the border. The ugly coils of razor wire that rise six rows high through the middle of a border town are a good example of a dangerous destructive and immoral policy being implemented that basically destroys the peaceful ambience of that town and is an extreme danger to children, pets, wildlife and incapacitated people such as drunks or those with disabilities without a corresponding safety fence for protection. In the future it will have to be taken down at great expense.
All demands and nothing for Democrats is Trump's goal. That is not negotiation. Once again, this is blackmail and hostage taking. Trump the terrorist who wants the country to live in fear and in the meantime he is willing to harm millions of federal workers and contractors and their families at the cost of billions.
28
Compassion is good.
But what about the reality that there are BILLIONS of desperate people, refugees from failed economies, inept and corrupt govts, cultures that are ecologically fatal, population excesses that continue, based on religions and lack of education. What about all these humans, each of them!!
In the bigger picture, Compassion / Dems are looking at and trying to address today's symptoms of failed cultures, countries, religions, and ecological disasters. The 8 BILLION and counting is the bigger picture. What to do to save the Earth, to save at least some of it, and some of the people.
We need to help people change themselves and the countries they are coming from. We need to provide more help for education, for women, for family planning, for living ecologically within the limits of the country, of the Earth.
The US cannot be the overflow receptacle for the BILLIONS of people from failed cultures. Reality and Nature will triumph over such naive simplicity, such short term compassionate response to the immediate symptioms.
The US already has 50 million plus people living under the poverty line. Something like that number on food stamps. Most Americans don't want to pay more taxes: they want someone else to pay for their compassion. Where will the trillions of dollars come from to help the 8 Billion and to avoid the Four Horsemen. The galloping hooves are heard now in many countries. The US and Planet Earth does not have unlimited resources. Let's get real.
15
Communication breakdown. It's always the same...
1
hahaha... rock on!
@APH
"Communication breakdown. It's always the same..."
Havin' a nervous breakdown,
drive me insane.
Blame game once again! Meanwhile, the threat of Shutdown looms for government employees, who are innocents... Rename the employees "Collateral Damage," or "Pinballs," or perhaps "Broken Backboards." The recent Shutdown cost the American Taxpayers in excess of $7 billion; let's deduct that from all Congressional and White House salary and benefit packages!
5
This defines a 'manufactured crisis' complete with arbitrary deadlines. How convenient. It worked for Germany in 1939 (Poland) and Putin's Russia in 2014 (Crimea)...so why not the USA in 2019?
Are we witnessing Trump's 2020 election campaign: Punish the nation - hobble the government - impoverish Federal employees?
The rules: If there is no enemy, invent one; tilt at windmills; shoo the ghosts from the castle; mock disbelievers; demonize the innocents, but above all - blame the Democrats.
Look to Machiavelli, Cervantes, Shakespeare and Sun Tzu for answers and solutions.
17
All this posturing by Senate and House Republicans is for the express purpose of feeding the dangerous delusion of Trump. They are the enablers-in-chief.
13
Trump promised a million times that Mexico will pay for his wall. Now, he’s trying to sell us that his tariffs have already paid for his wall. In reality, we Americans are the ones who paid those tariffs via higher prices. Now, Trump wants us to pay again,- This time for his useless wall. I have an alternative- Have the ultra wealthy, whom Trump/GOP gifted a $1.5 trillion tax cut to, pay for his wall!
24
First it was "Illegal alien" then "Undocumented immigrant worker" now everyone is an "Asylum seeker"
Change the name as many times as you want... I'll still vote for Trump in 2020 because I'm tired of Democrats conflating turn of the century immigration [Ellis Island] with the chaos occurring at the Southern Border.
Enter the legal way ... bring in as many immigrants as you want.. They can even stay at my house.
But enter illegally and falsely claim "political asylum" .. That's gaming the system and not fair to those who are playing by the rules.
19
Wake up! The “crisis” at the border is manufactured, and has been repeated enough times that the ignorant repeat the propaganda as though it were fact.
This about creating a political war, which Trump is doing with the numerous fake issues. This is his reality show. He is trying to destroy our country. Trump is the National Emergency!
2
@Aaron
You will vote for a man who employs the illegals you disdain. I don’t understand that. If illegals are so harmful, why do you give a pass to their employer? Do you really believe they didn’t know? Why weren’t they given the same salary’s and benefits as he legal?
Nancy Pelosi should have held off approving the State of the Union address till a full budget was passed
3
Does anyone really think the Trump goal in this single season melodrama is about anything other than re-election campaigning? Trump is perfectly ok with shutting down the government for an indeterminate period -- he could not care less who it troubles.
So I say, let him begin this madness, and take it through the courts. Obviously the GOP's fear of Trump base retribution renders the Republican Senate impotent. But the Supreme Court is another matter. Quite another matter.
Caving in to the Trump threat is merely helping him get another 4 years to annoy the world and permanently ruin the USA.
6
It is likely a deal will pass at the last minute.
The crime is what Trump has put our government workers though. I feel so bad for them and sorry for the abiding mental exhaustion he continues to put the rest of us through on a daily basis.
Can't we just fire him already?
11
Please, someone explain why some Americans think it is just fine for millions of people to enter our country illegally and use tens of billions of dollars annually of taxpayers money for their care? The latest estimates of the number of people living here illegally is over 11 million. I don't care if they came across the Southern border or overstayed their visa, we must put a stop to this flagrant abuse of American citizens by illegal aliens. A border wall is an excellent way to begin to stop this abuse. Once that is done we can work on controlling those who overstay their visa's and then we can look closely at the 11 million plus that are here already to determine their fate.
13
Trump's ridiculous vanity wall would do very little to stop illegal immigration. It would be built at great cost to the taxpayers. It would also be a prime opportunity for graft. Did you know that Russians have substantial ownership of major American steel companies?
Studies have shown that immigration not only improves the economy but that illegal immigrants put more into the safety net than they take out.
Nothing is stopping Trump from starting to deal with overstayers.
Instead he chooses to make phony claims as part of a racist show to please his base. In contrast, the majority of Americans do not want his foolish and childish wall.
13
@NYChap
It isn't fine, and most Americans do not support the democrat's open borders approach. Their position is indefensible. Most of its support is just Trump animus.
Who owns the next shutdown is irrelevant. A majority of Americans in both parties want their leaders to compromise. Democrats will not be spared.
7
@NYChap NOBODY says that. That is a LIE that Trump continues to perpetuate. I live on the southern border and have discussed this issue for years with other folks. We want better border security but absolutely know that walls do NOT work; they destroy critical wildlife corridors and our fragile desert ecosystem. We are asking for more manpower and 21st century technology like infrared detection devices and drones. We would like America to help our sister country, Mexico, control her border with Guatemala. We would like a president that doesn't just spout false, racist, and xenophobic rhetoric and instead, uses diplomatic, respectful language about other human beings. We want a government that does not separate CHILDREN from their parents which is a barbaric crime against humanity. We want our Dreamers to be able to pursue citizenship without the fear of deportation to a country they have never known. Come down to the frontera and see for yourself that: there is NO crisis; the walls already built have extensive tunnels beneath them; and, many ranchers rely upon undocumented workers to help run their ranches and will not take kindly to the government building a useless wall across their private property. Quit listening to Trump, he is a LIAR.
3
Gang activity is growing in most west coast cities. A direct result of open borders.
10
Trump's ICE is too busy jailing children to fight crime. Nor will undocumented people dare report crimes if they know that any contact with authorities will get them deported.
Trump is lying when he claims that immigrants are dangerous. He knows better: He has employed hundreds at his golf courses for decades.
13
Then you must have proof that every government entity does not have because even DT's own departments say otherwise.
3
Excellent politics on the part of the President, it's a wonder how a guy so incompetent in the practical matters of administration is such a preternatural politician. He should (for his own benefit) shut down the government if Dems don't fold, this is like music to the ears of his base. Then, if they fold, he wins again. The man can do no wrong, politically.
If he's challenged in the primary he'll torch whoever tries like he did the over a dozen seasoned hands he destroyed last election. If he is not challenged he'll be free to make commentary against the Dems as they convene their circular firing squad of identity clowns and Republicans in Democrat clothing, who he will taunt into tearing into any progressives so he doesn't have to.
It's going to be a master's class in public politicking. Meanwhile my Democrats must come up with the 3 million votes they lost by, in the 30 states they did not win. More votes in Cal & NY and other neoliberal strongholds will not matter to the electoral college. This is going to be excruciating to watch, a long extended teaching moment.
PS I won't vote for another neoliberal who takes corporate money, so my side better get creative.
3
Trump thanks you for your support.
The polling numbers show that his base is beginning to desert him. Farmers are going bankrupt because if his policies. Tax refunds have shrunk because of the GOP tax giveaways to the rich.
Trump campaigned on the wall in the midterms and lost. Most people have learned to see though him.
11
@AJBaker - If you call that support, it helps explain how neoliberal Democrats blew a gimmie election.
And if his poll numbers are down, as all Presidents poll numbers have been historically at this point in their first term, it only makes my observation that he is practicing perfect politics the more salient. Tax refunds have not "shrunk," not that the size of a tax refund has ever swung an election. Obama campaigned on ending wars and providing proper health care, he did neither an he won. We are paying for his failure now.
Save America, vote your conscience, Trump will pass, you integrity must stay.
1
I am not interested in a “socialist” border wall. If private land owners along the Mexican border need a wall for protection let them pay for it. It’s their problem not mine. Please leave my money alone. Before you know it the government will be wanting to use my money for Medicare for all and free college.
1
There’s much evidence to show that walls do work and most Americans know it. With the Democrats throwing up one road block after another on illegal immigration and their new far left extreme position on legalizing and promoting the abortion issue, Trump may well be on the road to a second term.
This ironically after John Roberts recent support of stare decisis concerning Roe v Wade.
6
Can someone tell Trump that he is negotiating with the wrong people across the aisle for the wall funding?
As he has promised, he ought to be negotiating the with guys across the southern border.
2
Democrats aren't looking to compromise, they're looking for a political victory. This is now only about damaging Trump.
And to the critics, do you understand the difference between "legal" and "illegal" immigration? We want legal immigration to continue, but want to stop people from illegally sneaking over the border. Get it?
11
Democrats are in danger of losing the plot. If they start defending illegal immigration, they will lose moderate voters who respond strongly to the idea that breaking the law is justified.
12
@RAD61
Following the law is a core American value. Much more important than a wall or a triumph over Trump is this very important principle.
This is the real American value at stake, not a slogan on the Statue of Liberty.
5
There’s only one thing you do with a bully. Stand up to him. Can Republicans hire Gavin de Becker for some training?
2
Come on dems, $4 billion for the wall and a path way to citizenship for all the dreamers. Stop playing with the Dreamers lives and finally make this deal happen. Afterall, we know the wall isn’t going to get built anyway with years of litigation ahead based on eminent domain cases. So get something out of this now.
4
Government shutdowns have no purpose. Think about it: denying people pay to do their jobs in the government that they support.
It's a conundrum.
Throw that word by the non-literary Trump.
2
How can Democrats now claim they do not support Open Borders?
Is there any plausible reason to believe that additional wall would not reduce illegal immigration? Is there any plausible reason to believe that capping the number of illegal crossers ICE can detain will not result in more such crossers?
Why don't they have a moment of honesty and admit the obvious: they just don't want to do anything effective to curtail illegal immigration - they will only be happy if there is more, not less, of it. That is their precise goal in these "negotiations".
They think a wall is "immoral"? Fine -- just don't pretend otherwise.
It's who you are. Be who you are, loud and proud. Let the voters know in honest words everybody understands.
15
@frankly0 Well stated. Actions speak louder than words.
5
Are Dems just making up issues as they go along? I am very sympathetic to the overall Democratic immigration reform, but how many more “red line” issues is the Democratic party going to invent to “stick it to” the Trump administration? This is making my head hurt. Please try some collegiality and stop going toe-to-toe with the Republicans. They were democratically elected, too, and they too represent large portions of the country. Signed - a life-long Democrat
12
I fully understand the dissatisfaction of those who argue that illegal aliens will "get away with it" if we simply grant amnesty to those who are already here, and I too am frustrated that this is the second time we've been told that "it won't happen again" (the first being in 1986). Nevertheless, I think most Americans are willing to cut a deal on (non-criminal) immigrants who are already here -- and not only the Dreamers.
IF, that is, we get some believable assurance this time that it really won't happen again. This commenter has a good suggestion on how to get that:
"I want mandatory E-Verify to prevent them from ever working in the US. If they can't work they won't come."
I've met a few illegal immigrants who have no intention of working once they get here, but those people are few and far between. Most illegal immigrants come because they think they'll find good-paying jobs here.
2
I fervently hope Trump declares a national emergency. Then the Democrat who replaces him can declare a national emergency over healthcare. And a national emergency over student debt. And a national emergency over the minimum wage and equal pay for womem. And finally a national emergency to outlaw and disband a vast domestic subversive organization in thrall to and financed by a hostile foreign power that has spent 40 years eroding out democracy, destroying faith in govermemt and pursuing a relentless agenda of reducing the American people to serfs.
Take a wild guess who that might be?
5
If the government closes, once again, over Trump's unnecessary and wasteful spite fence, the ones who will soon be shutting down critical parts of the government will be the TSA, FAA and IRS workers who will quickly decide, "If you ain't gonna pay me, I ain't gonna work."
3
The long national nightmare of chaos and dysfunction that is the Trump regime continues. The funds that the pentagon proposes to canabalize to build the wall are approved construction projects that support the readiness of our armed forces and the welfare of our troops. To misappropriate this money for a vanity project is beyond the pale.
3
Almost certainly correct:
"If Democrats support illegal immigration, Trump
Is assured a second term."
Trump could blow it, or die, but right now it looks like he'll highlight the immigration issue (again) and win re-election. It will depend somewhat, of course, on who the Democrats run, but Trump today could probably beat any of them easily.
11
@MyThreeCents
Democrats have bigger problems than immigration. Its new leftwing is yanking the party to the left. Not a winning move. Americans have demonstrated that they don't support extremes.
Trump only seems extreme to the extremists. In fact, his approach is often based on common sense. One could say it's his "secret weapon". Despite his hyperbole and over-the-top rhetoric, most Americans support immigration reform. They do not support open borders.
2
If the "wall issue" is "over," why are they still talking about it?
"The wall issue was over when two weeks ago, Pelosi famously made Trump cave."
Not sure you're serious but, if you are, you're kidding yourself to think the "wall issue" is "over." My hunch is that they'll cut some deal on border security, or Trump will make the Democrats look very bad. I agree that Nancy Pelosi won the first round, but not by much. I doubt she'll win this one.
3
Maybe, but I've largely been impressed with Presidents' intelligence, especially after they've been in office for a while:
"President Trump strikes me increasingly as a slow learner."
Trump's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he stands head and shoulders above Bush the Younger (for whom I'd make a notable exception to my observation above).
I remember Obama delivering some long-winded explanation of a complicated economic policy issue about 3-4 years ago and my coming away from it thinking: "This guy's really thought it through -- I'm impressed!"
Obama struck me as considerably brighter than Trump, but Trump strikes me as considerably brighter than Bush the Younger. Bill Clinton was probably somewhere in between Obama and Trump, and certainly much brighter than Bush the Younger.
Any shutdown of any of the government needs to result in withholding of pay of all Legislators, the President, and all Cabinet members. until the shutdown ends. These least vulnerable should suffer as bad or worse than the usual working stiffs. If this were the case it would be the end of the shutdown.
5
I don't understand why congress is even debating funding the wall. Did everyone forget that DJT's campaign promise had 2 important components: 1 - that he would build the wall, and 2 - that Mexico would pay for it? So why are his pundits only focused on the the 1st part, and ignoring the 2nd? If we reran the election with only part 1 on the agenda, would he have won? No! This was without a doubt the biggest lie, and he should be held accountable for it. Someone should point-blank ask him, why are you causing suffering for millions of citizens, holding the country hostage, drawing attention away from important issues, misusing the military, separating families, and causing irreparable harm to our ability to negotiate in good faith with other countries -- when you should be delivering on the 2nd part of the deal -- and negotiating with Mexico to fund the wall?
4
The government workers i know enjoy the days off with pay. they have always been paid (late of course) but still paid. The folks needing the services suffer. I would could only hope our local government here in California would stay shut so we can live here in peace without the government trying to extract every last penny. building permits here are 100x the national average. So $50,000 for permision to build a modest house.
Trump, in his view, must retain the loyalty of every member of his base if he's to have even a slim chance of reelection, which is the only thing that matters to his ego. Knowing that any concession to the Democrats that his base senses he's made, for whatever reason, will cost him at least some of the base and therefore further shrink his support, a la Coulter and others. So he's shackled from being presidential, from giving even an inch to his "opponents", or from otherwise seeming to flinch. It's essential to keep in mind that Trump is about Trump - not this country, not stable government, not about decency, but strictly about promoting Donald Trump's visibility and fame (meaning notoriety). As long as he's in the White House we have no president. We have only the bizarre caricature of one, and a dangerous one at that. It's a matter of deep shame for this country to have elected Trump as POTUS. We'll not get too many chances to correct this egregious wrong.
5
Ben,
Perfectly stated.
1
American spend most their energy fighting Cultures war over abortion vs woman’s right, gun control vs NRA, scientific-based vs religion based decision-making, unlimited vs limited immigration. Culture wars have not only exhausted the resources but also prevent us solving our real problems of dilapidated infrastructures, declining of public education, the looming bankruptcy of entitled programs, massive drug addictions, gun violence, future investments in technology, social inequality created by the tax system.
5
I've suggested several Times that observant troops on the border is sufficient to deter and defend the border. They can see and hear, along with aids, what is approaching from great distances and repel any serious threat with supporting forces.
As for migrants crossing the border, the only harm they may pose is to Trump and his abnormal hatred.
Even with existing miles of walls, the migrants still get here as they go over and under the existing walls sight unseen except for occasionally passing Border Patrol Agents.
So I ask; if the military is mandated to defend the nation, why not actually here at home on the border? Even the military might agree with me.
The primary advantages to the military presence instead of a Wall of Hatred by Trump is that not only will the troops repel and deter illegal immigration, but the troops will allow us to pass unimpeded as many will want to in the future now being presented with real danger within our borders. The Trump Police State rulers are imprisoning us in their cop show brainwashing public trough of money. The threat is real and steps have been taken starting with the Patriot Act that primarily focused on we citizens now being monitored electronically in every way. Americans are going to want to leave this "Land of Laws" for other "Lands of Freedom". It's just inevitable as we now face a military dictator.
American Police forces are in control of everything. The Congress enabled them so I just don't believe they are sincere.
I still have not heard Democrats deny that they voted for walls and fences in past years. Why are they allowing fake claims by Trump? But if Trump is correct, why are they now against fixing weak spots in the barriers they voted for?
1
Failing to fund the government should it happen again, just deepens the irony inherent in a government shutdown ostensibly based upon a border security crisis. The most potent component of border security is not a wall - it is the people who patrol our borders - the very people who go unpaid when government is unfunded. As a retired Coast Guard officer, it's appalling to see members of the Coast Guard, Border Patrol and the other hard working components of the Department of Homeland Security go unpaid - essentially in an argument over a vanity project. Is this really happening? This administration makes the administrations of Jame Buchanan and Andrew Johnson look almost competent...
1
The last government shutdown cost Americans more than the wall the President - and most Americans - want built. The next shutdown will cost twice what it would to build the wall. Clearly for the Pelosi and Schumer crowd money is not the issue, and they could not care less about government workers or the economy. It's dirty politics pure and simple. And it never effect their paychecks or the paychecks of their colleagues in Congress.
1
"Enjoy the shutdown republicans you'll own it again."
Inevitably some Americans will blame Trump for the shutdown and others will blame the Democrats. That was true last time too, and more Americans blamed Trump than blamed the Democrats.
The "mix" may be the same this time, but I don't expect that. I think more Americans will blame the Democrats this time. (Actually, I think the two sides will cut a deal and so there won't even be a shutdown. But if there is, most Americans will blame the Democrats this time.)
2
@MyThreeCents
The absence of democrats' negotiations over dreamers speaks volumes to Americans. They were wiling to shut down government last year over DACA. They are in total disarray over immigration.
4
The United States now officially has one of the most dysfunctional governments of any developed country in the world. Increasingly the American Republic survives not because of its government but in spite of it, because of its good people.
2
Let's get one thing straight. It's a broken record but it must be repeated at the top of all of these articles: Under no circumstances should we ever permit the threat of a government shutdown to be used by President Trump in the executive branch, or someone like Ted Cruz or others in the legislative branch, to get their pet policies approved. Regular order, as John McCain consistently explained to us, can never allow the threat of government shutdowns or a refusals to increase the debt ceiling to replace the normal legislative process, regardless of which political party might be tempted to use this strategy. It will be the end of our democracy. The same goes for declarations of national emergencies, which should only come into play in the most dire circumstances. Please print this loudly and clearly.
5
Until the Republicans start seeing the border security issue on its merits and rational grounds, as the Democrats are doing, away from the distorted populist view offered by Trump, the shutdown spectre would continue to haunt the nation every now and then, which is what Trump desires to keep charged his raw conservative base which is always prone to the immigrant phobia,and Trump has mastered by now how to thrive on the fear mongering.
2
I'm no expert in education or psychology, but President Trump strikes me increasingly as a slow learner.
28
I have to quarrel with the, “learner,” part of that sentence.
4
@Jim Steinberg
I'd say it's the left who will be learning a lesson. It won't be the first time. Last time they had a majority under Obama, they overreached and Pelosi led them off a cliff. They received that midterm shellacking.
I suspect Americans are watching, many in horror, at the direction of the Democratic Party right now.
4
The real tragedy is that there are people who really believe this vanity wall will solve the problem.
60
Many commenters have complained that Trump uses Twitter. Many politicians do. Trump's shortcoming is not his choice of communications medium, but the intelligence (or lack thereof) exhibited in what he writes. He's not a great thinker or writer. I do support some of his policies, but he's not a a great thinker or writer.
6
People who entered this country illegally are not “law abiding citizens”. If Democrats support illegal immigration, Trump
Is assured a second term.
23
They don't support illegal immigration. What a foolish notion which exposes ignorance. The Wall has no role in border security. It has the opposite effect diverting resources from more effective measures of border control. The Wall is Trump's ego which is far more dangerous than a porous border.
6
I believe the article refers to “law abiding residents” which is quite different than citizens.
2
@Citizen
I guess you believe in a "Land Of Laws". as opposed to "The Land of Freedom".
Trump will win and the Dems will lose on this issue. It’s a 70/30 wedge issue - most Americans want border security.
16
Yes but most Americans that a Wall does not contribute to border security, just as a security blanket or a binky does not protect an infant. It just reduces anxiety.
3
Border security is already in place. Trump and his minions have hijacked the term and are now using “border security” as a euphemism for Le Wall.
1
djt should simply pay for 'his-monument-wall' personally,
and then just have Mexico reimburse him.
how difficult is that?
24
This is a terrible reason for Democrats to miss a deal again. They are being sucked into a weird open borders platform by pelosi that is guaranteed to lose the next election.
20
@Mons as a Republican, this move by Democrats is a blessing from above. Keep raising this issue and they will soon on the shutdown and be seen for who they truly are- political opportunists
8
Reading the comments, I am wondering did anyone actually read the article. It's about the Democrats causing a breakdown in negotiation by raising the issue of detention beds. The wall issue was over when two weeks ago, Pelosi famously made Trump cave. If the Dems push the detention bed issue further and another shutdown occurs, it is likely the Dems will be the new owner of the shutdown.
26
@Qcell " ... it is likely the Dems will be the new owner of the shutdown ... "
That's Trump's plan, and it appears likely to work.
3
The Democrats are the party of Open Borders who have no problems with the country being flooded by illegal immigrants from central America.
The Democrats tricked us in 1986 and I won't be tricked again. I am opposed to any amnesty for illegal aliens. I would like to see us deal with the illegal aliens the way Eiasenhower handled the issue.
Illegal aliens have too many rights for people that have broken into the country. We need to cut back on their rights to continually appeal decisions which deny their pleas for asylum. There must never be another amnesty in the US.
I want mandatory E-Verify to prevent them from ever working in the US. If they can't work they won't come. All illegal aliens should be kept in detention until their legal cases have been adjudicated.
17
My how time flies. While Trump and his cabal draw the line in the sand for a second reality government reality tv show the 2020 election is now 20 months away. Wow is that ever coming up fast. Is that enough time for Trump to run this country and it’s economy into the ground once and for all? Stay tuned folks. It’s all happening in real time.
19
20% of the already understaffed Air Traffic Controllers are eligible to retire. Go ahead try not paying them again, their retirement checks will not be affected.
Just wait until only the biggest aircraft are allowed into the system for efficiency reasons. Sorry rich guy, they won't have time to handle your little biz jet with 6 people on board, that B-777 will have priority with it's 250 passengers.
Rather then wasting fuel in hours long ground holds the airlines will just cancel flights that aren't the most profitable ones.
Enjoy the shutdown republicans you'll own it again.
30
I hope the Democrats stand their ground on limiting detention beds. The wall is a symbolic issue, and not likely to materialize, no matter what the appropriation turns out to be. But limiting the capacity of ICE to ambush and imprison immigrants who have been here for decades, and who are fully integrated members of American communities, is essential to our future as a humane democracy. ICE arrests immigrants in the interior of country, not at the border. The limits that were in place during the Obama administration were more than adequate to detain immigrants who had committed a serious crime and were therefore targeted for deportation. Raising the capacity only gives the government (and the private prison companies who own the facilities) a perverse incentive to lock up law-abiding immigrants, whose presence in our country is a positive one.
12
Pretty sure if they were “law-abiding” immigrants they would have obeyed our immigration laws and would have no reason to fear ICE...
13
@JP Actually, when many arrived, crossing the border without documentation was a civil offense, not a criminal one. Today, first-time border crossing without documentation is a misdemeanor. We are not a country that locks people up for non-violent misdemeanors, or for past infractions that are now misdemeanors. If we discover that someone has done something 10 or 20 years ago -- say, driven under the influence once in their youth, arguably a more dangerous infraction than walking across a border, and not been caught -- we do not wait outside their home, handcuff them, and haul them off to detention. And we don't do this often to white immigrants who have overstayed visas. The beneficiaries of raising the ICE bed capacity are CivicCore and other private prison companies, and all those people who want to make America more white again.
2
If illegal immigrants were deported promptly they would not be “here for decades”. Now we have a 11 million person problem and Trump in the White House. It is about time we put an end to illegal immigration NOW. Democrats have now become the problem, not the solution.
5
What nobody seems to know:
1) Who are the contractors lining up to build the wall?
2) How much have they contributed to Trump's campaign fund? Or promised to contribute?
3) How much does he owe them from previous deals?
It's not just about stirring up his base or kissing Ann Coulter's um, ring. There's a lot of money to be made in building that useless wall. As usual, follow the money.
36
@Martha Shelly: I've been wondering the same thing myself for a while. To whom does Trump owe favors? Which names are in play to build this wall? Who designed it? Where are the plans? Is this an Army Corps of Engineers' job? Or will it be contracted out to privateers, looking to overcharge the government for materials and labor? How much will we taxpayers be on the hook for to private contractors who are Trump cronies? Funny, how we're not seeing any of those details...
2
Interestingly, Texas Governor Abbott did not name border security as one of his "emergency" state needs in his State of the State message last week. I believe he identified property taxes, public education and mental health.
30
At least the first two things you mention, property tax and education are increasingly affected by illegal immigration. All those kids require a lot of money to educate, whether the kids just came over with their illegal parents or are citizens from our insane birthright citizenship law.
2
@Al, Immigrants, including those without documentation, PAY TAXES, using a tax ID number if they don't have a social security number. They do this in spite of the fact that they are not entitled to collect social security benefits, food stamps, etc. They CONTRIBUTE TO THE REAL ESTATE TAX BASE by renting homes. They contribute at the same level as anyone else in a given school district.
If birthright citizenship were "insane", and never a thing, none of us would be citizens.
1
The failure of the deliberations was deliberate.
Let them fail so we have a solid case against Trump.
A one Time deliberate shutdown by Trump could be argued as political. A second time in as many weeks is Sabotage.
Why are you all throwing candy at a spoiled child?
12
““For far too long, the Trump administration has been tearing communities apart with its cruel immigration policies,” Representative Lucille Roybal-Allard, Democrat of California and one of the negotiators, said on Sunday.”
On the contrary. For far too long, lackluster enforcement of our nation’s immigration laws has been tearing communities apart by flooding them with uninvited, illegal interlopers who steal jobs, overwhelm services designed for American citizens, and debase and degrade the effect of our laws.
The most sensible thing to do is to immediately expel all illegal aliens from our country. It just makes good sense.
13
@NorthernVirginia
"Expelling all illegal aliens"? HOW will you go about executing such an idea? How much will it cost? And who's paying the operational costs?
Democrats should never give in to Trump and his demand for a wall. Never. Trump is a clear and present danger to the United States of America. He needs to be impeached and indicted: that is what needs to happen. The sooner the better.
16
After Trump caved on the wall, the Democrats want to further humiliate him with limiting detention beds. The Democrats don’t know how to quit while they are ahead.
8
Need the shutdown--no pain, no gain.
1
Don’t pull my leg, seriously...
“Senior officers are voicing greater worries that the deployed troops are not conducting the missions and training needed for their regular missions, while other military units must now pick up the routine duties on behalf of their deployed colleagues.”
3
Our country had been hijacked by Stephen Miller, Ann Coulture, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh.
Let that sink in.....
36
so why not just give him the funding and lets move on?
the arguments against it are completely silly, stubborn or political. Yes, it may be waste of money. No it doesn't harm US citizens.
3
Baby Trump is poised to have another government shutdown temper tantrum and hundreds of thousands will suffer needlessly. Would someone please put little Donald in a permanent timeout behind prison bars instead of his weekly playpen bars at Mar-A-Lago. There is NO security emergency at the southern US border. Why aren't Republican members of Congress calling Trump out on this, yet another, blatant lie?
17
People are getting a big surprise now that they have started filing their tax forms. Not only is there nothing for the middle class, they are finding that that expected refund is now a bill. The IRS doesn't use bill collectors, they have federal agents.
11
And how you know that it is a bill not a refund? Any statistics, please...
5
@Paulie
Many middle class Americans are receiving a tax cut. Their tax rates are lower, and their credits are higher. Tax tables don't lie.
It's the top 20% in high taxed states who are hit by the SALT limitation. Average property taxes in the US are around $3500.
1
Trump’s tax cut benefits the richest Americans at the expense of the middle class. Any cut or refund the middle class experiences is temporary. This is easily verifiable, despite the right wing assertions to the contrary. By 2027, nearly 83 percent of the tax cut will accrue to the top 1 percent richest Americans.
Trump’s tax cut was a giveaway to the rich—he said that to them himself right after it passed.
It’s shameful how Trump followers insist on dissembling. But then again, they probably actually believe Trump was helping them. How sad.
Not a DIME for the wall.
The Republican's position is built on lies on top of lies on top of more lies.
Not a Dime.
40
Just like the Russians built the wall in Berlin to keep the East Germans from escaping, so does Trump. Russia must be so proud of Trump. What a good spy you are Don.
12
@PATRICK:"Just like the Russians built the wall in Berlin to keep the East Germans from escaping, so does Trump. "
Yeah, he has to stem the tide of folks fleeing to Mexico.
10
Agreed, I think the wall is to keep people in, not out.
1
I'm disturbed that the Democrats are showing weakness in giving any Wall of Hate funding. If you can be so quick to condemn one of your own Governors for a youthful indiscretion as you claim the mantle against hate, why do you allow this even greater exercise of hatred by a dangerous man and his wayward followers?
14
As long as current economic conditions in Mexico, Guatemala and El Salvador continue people will make their way to our country. Building a wall, limiting detenion facities, using drones, and other technology will slow the growth of those entering our country but will not stop the flow of people. So I see two issues which our politicians and media fail to address. That being what is the economic plan to aid those countries whose citizens feel they have no choice but to migrate here and at what point does the cost of undocumented immigration (Health care, schools, etc) finally result in solutions not based on politics but whst could have the best chance of success.
11
please shut down. you will never win another election. ever.
9
Anybody who thinks a wall doesn't work ought to visit the South Korea North Korea border wall.
I dare you to try and cross it.
6
@Mr Chang Shih An
You seem to forget that North-Korea is a horrible dictatorship that literally imprisons and exploits its own people ... ?
Fact is, ALL US national security experts have shown that a full wall is NOT the most effective way to protect the southern border.
And then there are some other embarrassing facts that your talking point ignores:
1. the Korean border is 160 miles long, the US southern border 2,000 miles.
2. there IS no full wall at the Korean border, only some part where concrete pieces of wall exist, just like ... in the US today.
Next?
17
Mr An
Mexico is not our enemy and the people trying to get here are not the rapists and murderers that Trump threatened us with, they’re people that are fleeing threats to their families and seeking a better life for themselves. They are the people mowing your lawns and cleaning your tables in restaurants.
The question is not whether a wall works but whether we want to spend 25 Billion to stope the people that I describe. That’s right, 25 billion. 5 is a down payment.
As far as a wall working , is that all their is between North and South Korea? A wall, no troops, no demilitarized zone ? Please.
8
But of course, Wall works. I’ve seen it between East and West Germany. Land mines are even more effective. How far do we want to go? Question is - why go that way? The impotence of Congress, it’s inability to solve the immigration situation has many fathers with deep pockets. Do you understand that most of citizens just don’t trust politicians anymore? Just write a just bill - but no, Reps and Dems are not going to do that. As far I can see this, the Idiot will win since he, at least has one eye, among the corrupted blind.
3
We’re retired now from the construction business. Unfortunately, our former employees...American citizens all...will have a tough time maintaining their standard of living as the competition from cheap illegal foreign labor drives their wages progressively downward. Does the Democratic faction that used to champion American workers care about that? No. They're too busy cheerleading on behalf of illegal migrants for the sake of political gain.
13
@Shenoa
And who is hiring this cheap illegal foreign labor? And who is saving on costs from this same labor? It is our problem, not the problem of those who work for less and live below your former employees standard of living. Somewhere someone is making money and stealing a share of the market based on cheap illegal foreign labor. Look for them and build a wall around them, with bars.
13
@Shenoa: The drumbeat from the Democratic Party is the illegals are beneficial to the US and pay taxes.
1
Have you paused to consider that a wall will do nothing about the problem you are talking about? Most illegals overstay visas that they obtain legally. What will your wall do about that? The answer is nothing. The fact is illegal crossings are the lowest they’ve been in years. Please use facts and data to make your case, not useless rhetoric that is patently misleading and uninformed.
17
Pass a veto proof budget bill, let Trump veto it and then pass it with the required margins and let us get on with life....
13
Democrats do not want border security and an end to illegal immigration.
They want catch and release, and they want illegals to take advantage of their illegal sanctuary city and sanctuary state policies.
12
@EGD
You're clearly not really interested in national security, if not you'd have found out long ago already how false these claims are.
For two decades now, the ONLY president who was passionate enough about national security to get something done, has been Barack Obama.
Thanks to his strong focus, interest in policy details, and outstanding negotiating skills, he managed to get a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill through Congress. It included ALL the border security strengthening measures that BP agents ask for for years already, such as 40,000 additional BP agents and e-verify.
It passed in the Senate with 68 votes, but the GOP House never even allowed a vote on it, thereby artificially keeping the borders open for five long years.
And where Catch and Release results in only 60 of those caught and released to show up in courts, Obama's Family Case Management program resulted in 99% of them showing up in court.
Guess who eliminated this program? Trump. Now his putting thousands of illegal immigrants on US streets, as prisons aren't large enough to host them.
In real life, ONLY Democrats care about REAL border security. The GOP merely talks about it, and then massively spreads lies, without ever doing anything (except for no longer paying BP agents for an entire month, and already announcing to do so soon once again).
Time to wake up ...
45
@Ana Luisa
You certainly have the DNC talking points down.
Of course, if Democrats actually wanted to end illegal immigration they’d eliminate the sanctuary cities and states they created and maintain.
The sole purpose of sanctuary cities and states is to provide protection to people in the US illegally in order to prevent their — wait for it — deportation.
8
@Ana Luisa: "You're clearly not really interested in national security, if not you'd have found out long ago already how false these claims are..."
He should have been paying some attention the Russians.
From the reports on the OP-ED pages the US was attacked on Obama's watch - not much security there.
That Reset Button didn't seem to work out that well.
4
Let’s see—Congress has the authority to override the President’s veto, so.... pass a bill with veto-proof majorities. Do the job you were supposedly elected for!
13
If, on Saturday February 16th, the day after the beginning of the second trump shutdown, all the TSA staff and the all air traffic controllers called in sick, the air travel industry would come to a halt. The shutdown would end by Monday. Please, TSA workers, read this and stay home. The longer you come to work without pay, the longer the shutdown drags on, only adding to the pain. You can stop this.
17
Honestly, I think that if we had 10 year olds running Congress we would be better off than we are now. Is it REALLY that difficult for adults to come to an agreement which everyone knows is in everyone's best interest?
8
@David
No. In December already, a bipartisan appropriations bill passed McConnell's Senate 100-0, and in January Nancy's House passed it too.
Appropriations bills - which by definition fund the implementation of already existing law for next year, not new law projects - typically pass 100-0, precisely because they are politically neutral.
Then the President decided to attach a highly partisan, new law project to it. That means weaponizing border patrol agents paychecks, which of course is totally unacceptable, and cannot but result in no bill signed into law at all.
What the GOP is doing today is simply illegal in most Western countries. The head of the Executive branch of government HAS to execute/implement already existing law (= sign appropriations bills into law), whether Congress agrees on new law projects or not.
So this isn't a matter of childish versus adult behavior. It's a matter of the GOP deliberately putting lying to its own base in order to keep its own ratings high, versus Democrats refusing to use BP agents and taxpayer money to fund mere GOP campaign stunts.
16
I am getting really tired of this refusal to negotiate. Do we have a country or some kind of chess game? Get the show on the road, folks.
We don't need a wall. We do need a national budget.
Grow up Mr. Trump.
18
It shouldn't be acceptable that the Trump administration refuses to give specifics about this wall. We don't even know whether the wall is a wall or...what, exactly. If Trump is asking for $5.7billion, he should have to explain exactly what that money will cover; is it a section of wall? If so, where does it start and where does it end? Will $5.7billion cover the full cost of Trump's wall? If not, what is the projected cost in full? Don't taxpayers have the right to know how much money we're expected to shell out, and what exactly we're getting for it? Or should we just accept that this "wall" is yet another Trump swindle?
There used to be talk about how Trump should be taken "seriously but not literally." How convenient for Trump! I guess that gives him license to take unlimited taxpayer money and spend it however he sees fit as the situation unfolds. And apparently all we can do is give in to his demands and then wait to see what he gives us in return. Seems to me those are the elements of a con job.
22
There are approximately 1 million illegal migrant children enrolled in our public schools at the cost to American taxpayers of approximately $11,000 per child, per year....1 million migrant children x $11,000 per student per year x 7-10 years of public school...
That’s $77 Billion-$110 Billion! And that doesn’t include the 4.1 million children enrolled in our schools who’re born in the US to illegal parents.
Astonishing! Considering what American citizens are now spending to provide for the over 5 million children of illegal foreign nationals, $5 billion for a physical barrier to secure our sovereign borders is peanuts!
10
@Shenoa
Then consider how many billions so many additional people working here and paying taxes add to the economy, and then calculate the difference.
Only then will you know whether purely financially the US benefits from or suffers from illegal immigrants.
As to the wall: all national security experts, including the four-star generals hired by Trump himself to be his Sec. of Defense and Chief of staff, have shown that a full wall is NOT the most effective way to protect the southern border.
Needless to add that refusing to pay our border patrol agents (= shutting down the government) isn't the most effective way to protect the southern border either ... ;-)
16
@Ana Luisa
What is your interest in propagandizing for illegal immigration in the U.S. when you live in Belgium? The wall does not make sense (and Shenoa did not mention it in her comment), but limiting illegal immigration does make sense. And how do you know, from your remove in Belgium, who pays taxes in the U.S. and who does not? My neighbors who hire illegal immigrants to clean and repair their homes and raise their children are asked to pay in cash, so those they employ don't have to pay taxes. I don't know how many pay taxes, but neither do you. My neighbors love the cheap labor. I asked one what he did about social security he was required to pay, and he said he pays the woman who cleans his house just little enough that he doesn't have to pay social security. There's something suspect about the mantle of moral superiority these individuals claim. Would that they have as much concern for their struggling fellow citizens, whom they seem to regard too often with contempt.
3
Seizing defeat from victory. Not a good look from Congress. Have had plenty of time to settle this. Only way this doesn’t get done is if both sides are more interested in politics than solutions. Congress seems incompetent.
1
@Observer
And that is EXACTLY why the GOP is doing this: the more people see Congress as incompetent, the less Americans will vote, and the more the GOP increases its chance of winning elections even though only a small (and lied to) minority supports them ...
What is needed to keep the government open is a bipartisan appropriations bill. That's a bill that funds the implementation of already existing law. And as it's already existing law, this isn't politically controversial at all, reason why appropriations bill usually pass with 100 votes in the Senate.
And that's exactly what happened this time too. In December, the Senate passed such a bill 100-0.
Nancy Pelosi already passed it in the House too.
The only problem today is that the GOP wants to attach highly partisan NEW law projects to an appropriations bill. Doing so of course means weaponizing the budget, and no longer getting a majority of votes at all.
In most Western countries, this kind of things is simply illegal. Congress, in a democracy, has the legal right to disagree about new law projects. But the Executive branch of government does NOT have the legal right to stop executing already existing law - for obvious reasons, because WHY would any citizen want a government that all of a sudden stops paying Border patrol agents, just because Congress can't agree on new spending projets ... ?
It just doesn't make any sense.
Democrats did what is necessary to pass an appropriations bill. Now the GOP has to act.
8
Not one penny for a wall. Trump, et al, said today that no matter what they were offered “they would make it up in other ways”, so why bother?
7
Trump should follow the examples of the Great Depression.
Gather up the unemployed and underemployed and make them build the wall so they "deserve" SNAP and unemployment and health care and .....
NO MORE HANDOUTS, since he needs another few hundred billions for new macho military toys.
5
Better yet, take incarcerated prisoners and have them build the wall, but let’s start with the white collar criminals first, test it out, send them to live like Arpaio made prisoners in Arizona in tents in 120 degree heat. Then we can start working our way down the list. Two birds-one stone.
As long as the GOP refuses to take op 2013's S.744, Obama's bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill that passed in the Senate with a 68-vote super-majority, and that includes tons of fact-based southern border security strengthening measures, Republicans are proving only one thing: that today just like the last five years (when the GOP House didn't even allow a vote on the bill), they aren't being serious about border security at all - point that of course deciding to no longer pay border patrol agents perfectly symbolizes.
Border patrol agents aren't asking for troops, they are asking for much more border patrol agents, because it has been proven that what they need is more people trained to do what a border patrol agents does. Troops can't take over those tasks (they aren't trained for it, and don't have the legal authority to do so), so the 18,000 border patrol agents already there are once again betrayed by the GOP's decision to refuse a vote on S.744 and instead send troops.
S.744 sends 40,000 additional border patrol agents to the southern border.
Instead of allowing a vote on it, the GOP decided to ... no longer pay border patrol agents for more than a month, and then send 4,000 troops.
And now they want to declare a national emergency because somehow America's troops are no longer able to defend themselves, they would even have become so weak that without a big wall between them and unarmed asylum seekers, they'd be lost.
What a horrible joke.
21
America is slowly but surely sliding back into its normal 19th Century decrepitude.
13
"Democrats say a cap of 16,500 beds in ICE detention centers would force the Trump administration to focus on detaining undocumented immigrants with criminal records instead of using indiscriminate sweeps that drag in otherwise law-abiding residents."
if you are in the country illegally, by definition, how can you be "law abiding"? how did you abide by the law when you entered illegally?
18
How does one graduate middle school and not know the meaning of "otherwise?"
16
@bored critic
The problem is that we can't deport all illegals simultaneously because we don't have the means.
So either you truly care about victims of violent crime, and then of course you make sure that at least violent crime perpetrators are deported, OR you don't care about Americans victim of violence at all, and then you just deport no matter whom you happen to encounter on the street, without taking "violence" as criterium.
Obviously, deporting violent criminals first protects the American people much better than just randomly deporting undocumented people ...
8
@bored critic
Why do you care so much that someone is in the country illegally? Who cares? They aren't doing anything bad - they're working! And they're certainly not doing anything that affects you.
Why don't you clutch your pearls and worry about all those (OMG!) people driving 5 mph over the limit?
13
This whole charade of a crises on the southern border is demoralizing to this country. Doing no one any good and has already hurt many financially and emotionally. Trump is a charade of a president to the detriment of all US citizens. HE is the CRISES.
16
"Senior officers are voicing greater worries that the deployed troops are not conducting the missions and training needed for their regular missions, while other military units must now pick up the routine duties on behalf of their deployed colleagues."
The military had never been anything more than a political prop to Trump.
13
Hopefully Democrats will not fall into this trap of: " making concessions is losing". You have to give and take in a democracy! So having another shut down over the # of detention beds looks like something Trump would. Wouldn't it be great to get a solution and put the issue of immigration behind us until perhaps in a less inflamed time one could work on a more constructive solution about immigration. Fyi: I have visited villages in Central America a few times and learned about the reasons of people to undertake this perilous journey to the US. It is cruel and at the same time laughable to think committing crimes is the motivation. There is so much that needs addressing, congress should move onward.
3
There's no reason given as to why we are supposed to take anything Senate Republicans say at face value after they had two years to work with a then Republican House on this excrescence.
17
Impeach this clown already. Enough. We want a President that actually has a clue and knows what it actually means to be President. The age of the reality star leaders is over. Enough.
36
I am against the wall. But, if Trump is determined to build it why not take the funds away from the excessive trips to Mar-a-Lago, his other properties and rallies. I do not to deny him the right to play golf. However, let him pay for his own travel, his own travel security and all other travel and golf related expenses of his entire entourage. While we are at how about having pay for all the Secret Service overtime incurred because of his excessive golf and personal travel schedule. Let him go to Camp David and use the putting green. Or he could play a golf game on a PS4 of Xbox!
20
Seems the banjo speaking (borrowing this new favorite) white males are worried about the Enquirer's vault of horrors.
6
The wall and opposition to it are strictly political; specifically election 2020 politics. Anyone who believes that either side is concerned about security or immigrant rights would buy that bridge over the East River. I would only add that the leadership on both sides is frightened of the extremists on their respective fringes. We elected them and we got what we deserved.
4
You mean the extreme right Fascists, right? There are no Communists on the left, not even close.
8
@lolita--socialists on the left. just ask Bernie and AOC what they are. they are proud to tell you they are socialists. and look all across Europe. how has socialism worked there? we have plenty of history on it and 1 thing is certain--socialism does NOT work.
3
Hopefully we'll get another Shutdown.
It'll be great for the country. Did you see Trump's numbers drop last time? That was the first crack in his support. Bring it on.
8
Democratic legislators are going to shut down the government again, because they are trying to block enforcement of existing laws, ie immigration laws? This is absurd. Stubborn. Stupid.
Inexcusable.
12
@joe--democratic philosophy--we don't like the laws so we will fight to obstruct them from being enforced. and we have alt-liberal judges across the country, esp. in Hawaii and California that we can file lawsuits to stop the enforcement of laws we dont like.
sounds like organized anarchy
3
Give me a break. The Republicans had 2 years to pass a bill to fund this useless wall. Any sane person can see that this can't be pinned on the Democrats. Any sane person also knows that "build the wall!" was nothing more than a jingoistic hunk of red meat Donald threw out to the masses. Enough with the false equivalences--the Republicans own this mess, lock, stock and barrel.
12
Show us your plans, Mr. President. Not a penny allocated for your wall until you provide detailed plans, cost estimates, feasibility studies, environmental impact statements, legal analyses, and a documentable chain of accountability. Otherwise, what exactly are you demanding? No, you may not have another slush fund. Put your specific plans in writing, Mr. President. Not on Twitter, but in signed public statements pursuant to an enforceable contract with the House and Senate. A contract negotiated in full public view, not in secret. A contract agreed through actual debate on the merits of your plan. It all starts with a plan, Mr. President.
22
Trump's rhetoric has been terrible. There was no need to say that "some illegal immigrants are rapists." It inflamed resistance.
The result is that Trump has precious little in terms of actual accomplishments on illegal immigration. Everything for him is a photo-op. He doesn't care that a wall is likely to be much less effective than a plan to phase in e-verify over time, so that potential future immigrants get the message that the US intends to enforce laws that it enacted in the past.
But such an agreement would require compromise. Trump doesn't understand compromise. His idea of negotiation is to make nonnegotiable demands so the confrontation continues. His base doesn't realize how ineffective this is in addressing their concerns.
But Democrats are even worse than Trump. To show that they don't approve of Trump's behavior towards women (who does?) they sacrifice their own in a circular firing squad.
Thus for example there is no real evidence that the governor of Virginia actually used blackface to humiliate or discriminate against blacks. To outlaw using blackface itself is like outlawing use of makeup in plays or operas---it is clearly going too far.
And the Me Too movement has gone completely off the rails. Do feminists not see that maintaining that women never lie is as preposterous as saying that men never lie?
And trial by public shaming in the media is NOT a step forward.
The accused has a right to due process---it's guaranteed by the constitution.
1
@Jake Wagner No one is proposing outlawing blackface. So I don't where you got that from. What people are saying is just as no one thinks it's a good idea to make fun of East Asians by mocking their language and pulling up their eyes or no one sees the humor in Holocaust jokes no one thinks that making fun of lynching and murdering black people and mocking their enslavement is the right thing to do.
Obviously I shouldn't say no one. Plenty of white people apparently find this stuff to be hilarious. The difference is that now they have to hear from Black people who don't see the humor.
I would like to see some actual reporting on this and not just hyperbole.s The INS says there were around 400,000 thousand crossers apprehended last year at the southern borders, those are the ones that were caught, more overstayed visas and another million immigrated legally? AOC says she wants a green new deal, which is a good thing, because over-population is causing pressure on borders everywhere. I want the NY times to go to the factory in NJ that only hires illegal workers, because they are half the price. Or the slaughterhouse, that pays minimum wage and stages periodic raids, to make a show that they are doing something about the situation, but never leaves the slaughterhouse with too few to operate. How about an article on the 55 year old engineer, displaced by an H 1B engineer from India. Talk to a construction worker, laid off after the crash and replaced by a guy from Home Depot parking lot, who works for 50 bucks a day. Talk to the teachers at the border towns and elsewhere, who've seen a surge of kids who don't speak English. Speak to the emergency hospital workers who deliver babies and treat kids for flu. Give me some numbers, how many kids does an immigrant family have and how old is the mother? How many are married? What's percentage of illegal immigrant kids graduate, and not a story about the odd Rhodes Scholar or the Asian guy that won a Pulitzer. I want to know these facts. I do not want 4 more years of Trump, but admit there's problem.
18
Like they used to tell us when we were little, 'Somebody's gonna get killed if you play like that.'
2
Sunday talk show posturing for the sake of the Watcher-in-Chief, senators needed to look tough on both sides to make it fit for our reality TV government. Come on, kids — let's put on a show!
4
The "National Emergency" declared in the Truman term during the Korean "Police Action." over the taking over the steel industry ended with a negative by the Supreme Court and the end of Harry Truman, politically. His "positives" were in the low 30's. Trump is walking on thin ice regarding the ignoring of Congress.
3
This is your Republican government, lurching from one shutdown to another. Harming the working class who elected it.
11
takes 2 sides to shut down the govt. just ask "no, no nancy"
2
@JP
The working class did not elect Trump. Only about 25% of his votes came from people making less than $50,000 a year. More of the "working class" voted for Hillary Clinton. This comment shows more bias toward the working class than anything else.
2
Why is there no longer any talk of the Dreamers? Chuck Schumer said in a podcast interview with the NYT earlier this year that last year Trump already agreed for the "full Wall for the full Dreamers" bill, meaning the 1.8 people who are Americans in every way except legally become citizens in exchange for the Wall (or massive funding for the Border). When Trump killed DACA, Paul Ryan also said he was hopeful some kind of Dreamers for Border Security deal could be reached. Why is that option no longer on the table or being discussed? Why are we still talking about the Border but not the Dreamers?
The polls show a majority support the Dreamers, and the Wall will make the President and his base happy, so what are we waiting for? Why has the conversation now shifted to detention beds?
3
The president has never committed to including all the dreamers in a path for citizenship.
2
Hopefully one more “wall” tantrum will be just enough to get Trump’s removal under way in earnest.
10
From the start, Trump's rhetoric has been inflammatory.
There was no need to demonize illegal immigrants. We needed collaboration between the two sides to develop an immigration reform bill that both Democrats and Republicans could live with.
But on the other hand, liberals are also partially to blame, as is the NY Times, which provides highly slanted reporting on illegal immigration.
Extreme positions are extolled such as eliminating ICE altogether and simply opening the borders to all who want to enter.
Trump's inflammatory rhetoric gives credence to views of his opponents that working to stop illegal immigration is racist and bigoted.
I am becoming pessimistic about the government shutdown.
One estimate is that the earlier government shutdown cost the US economy 11 billion, about twice the amount Trump asks for his wall.
It would clearly be better for Democrats to simply accede to the demand for $5.7 billion and move on.
With a government shutdown, Trump gets what he wants---a nation so divided that it cannot bring a credible case for impeachment based on say the Stormy Daniels payoff. With the government being shut down, or a national emergency declared, impeachment proceedings will take on a more political character.
Democrats voted in 1986 for a law restricting immigration and then individual communities voted to defy the law by declaring sanctuary cities.
Is a shutdown necessary to force Democrats to abide by laws that they themselves agreed to?
2
Mess this immigration thing up folks, and you’ll get him re-elected....... The issue isn’t going away....
8
Trump could not get this wall funded by the Republican controlled House and Senate in 2017 and 2018. Now he and McConnell are trying to blame Democrats who took control of the House last month after winning the midterms? This isn't about a wall. It's about Trump's selfishness, his determination to destroy America, and McConnell's unwillingness to confront that grave reality.
16
It's a waste of time to negotiate over the useless and expensive wall, especially when Trump has already demonstrated how much damage he's willing to do for a fearful, xenophobic and bogus campaign pledge.
Why not negotiate over funding the correct and well-informed priorities, rather than the bogus ones, for border security?
6
You never thought it could happen here in our nation. It can.
7
Let Trump declare his emergency and lets get on with this insanity. Trump's emergency declaration with be caught up in the courts for years. In 2020 if The Dems win they can declare some emergencies of their own. Emergency Declarations on guns and climate to name a few. Shortsightedness by The Right is going to comeback to bite them. Look at how The Dems are regretting allowing Harry Reid to chang rules about confirmations. Trumps goal of making Ann Coulter happy is going to haunt him in 2020 if he decides to run. I think Trump declaring an emergency will hurt The Right in 2020.In 12 months when there is not a new slab of wall concrete in place Trump will pay dearly.
11
OK, democrats, you have Trump where you want him..do not allow him to escape...be "reasonable," please, look tough but reasonable on illegal immigration---
5
@Amanda Jones: "look tough but reasonable on illegal immigration---"
You can't look tough and be reasonable about something you don't believe exists.
Try getting Nance Pelosi to admit that illegal immigrants even exits. You'll hear references to migrants, refugees, asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants. But illegal immigrants? Nope.
8
When will Republicans accept the reality that this is Caligula 101 with Trump.
Do they actually have to wait until he declares Ivanka as Consul, in charge of emergency detention powers?
6
No drama Obama sounds most excellent at this time. Think about it in the next election.
8
@Deirdre Mack:"No drama Obama sounds most excellent at this time. "
No drama, no nothing and according to the NYT's OP-ED writers Russia attacked us on Obama's watch. No drama, you betcha.
2
@Jp And from your previous comments on the subject you thought that was a good thing.
1
“On Obama’s watch.”
Spare us.
Trump literally volunteered highly classified information to two Russians —with the cameras rolling—while standing in the White House, just to try to impress them.
1
Has a nation ever suffered so much division and destruction from a deeply psychotic person before? I believe Trump's paranoid fear of Hispanics is truly disproportionate to any danger they pose. The secret is his obsession with Television. That's a problem for a man who comes from a big city where watching Television and movies is about all one does in their free time. The real danger posed by Hispanics are those that exist in Trump's mind. He needs friends to tell him his faults, not his fears. The man is a profound coward from bone spurs to Hispanics. Our nation is in danger from his psychosis and military doctors saying he's normal is a grave disservice to our nation. That holds true for Congressional Republicans who allow this mentally ill man to remain as the rubber stamp for their misdeeds and destruction of the government. That's what this is.
13
Just give Trump some money for Border Security. We all know that it's not just for a wall, and Democrats have done a great job of making people believe that Trumps immigration policy is a physical wall full stop. Trump hasnt done himself any favors as well bc he focuses on the wall as well, but if you look at the actual package he wants it includes both physical and technological barriers as well as increased border patrol budgets and more border patrol officers.
A lot of Americans dont like the fact that we dont have control of our border with Mexico. A lot of us believe that having a bad life doesnt mean you can apply for asylum, and we also believe that most people caught trying to illegally immigrate would probably not be applying for asylum unless they were caught. A lot of us want to give amnesty to the illegals already here, but at the same time want e-verify to be law and to put employers of illegal immigrants (like Trump) in jail.
No one represents our beliefs. I believe that most Americans want a controlled border AND sympathy to the people who are already here. However, no one represents our views. Trump at least wants to increase security on the border. To me that's better than losing control of the border, which seems to be the Democrats plan.
The Dems shoud demand more funding for immigration judges and asylum processing, make a compromise, and give Trump the money for his signature campaign promise.
7
A game. Dems should now offer 800 million dollars. If you say the whole thing, it sounds like more than the 1.3 - 2bn they were offering. And if anybody says anything about it, a unified response should be:"*800 million dollars is a lot of money, Are you telling me that's nothing?"
@4Average Joe: Pelosi has said no wall whatsoever.
2
@Jp
As have all the sheriff's in the border towns. Did you know that five of the top 10 safest towns in America are southern border towns?
2
Fourteen. I guess there are safe because they have liberal concealed carry laws. You know what they say about statistics. If statistics lie well we all know the rest.....,
1
Trump administration should raid all the major slaughterhouses and farms that employ undocumented immigrants. Enforce the law.
Then the US population will understand just how essential those immigrants are to the American food chain, whether they like it or not, when food prices skyrocket and supply plummets.
19
If the federal government is shutdown again, trump should be arrested for being the domestic terrorist he has shown he is.
10
I'm more than a bit nervous to see how low we drop the bar for anything requiring massive funding that gets labeled State of Emergency. Trump will get the rest of his wall, looks like we're nearly out of options.
What other advanced democratic country leader shuts down a fair portion of its government yet demands that certain government workers keep working without pay? Why?
Because the egotistical leader, who acts more like a king than a president, has been denied a very expensive, not very effective structure that he promised his supporter--despite the fact that a majority of security experts, American people, and one political party say is costly and wasteful and won't do the job as effectively as other security measures.
I grew up in Washington, D.C. and most of my friends' fathers, mothers, or both proudly worked for the federal government, and they and our government were respected and honored.
I never imagined that the party of Lincoln and Eisenhower would end up demeaning and trying to dismantle portions of our own government, flagrantly lie and propagandize to get their way, and try to privatize public services in order to aggrandize their crony capitalist pals.
It is long past time for the Republican Party to stand up to its dysfunctional, temper-tantrum- throwing, damaging president. Let Trump veto what bipartisan bill Congress hands him.
Really, this is more of a test of the GOP than of Trump (who is corrupt and hopeless), or will the Republicans allow Trump to issue his "national emergency"? And for how many more times if he does not get what he demands?
10
Why on earth are we still allowing Mulvaney and Miller to soak the American taxpayer for their salaries. GET RID OF THOSE GUYS!!!
11
Since the Senate already voted to rebuke Trump on his Syria plans, I see no reason that Congress cannot override any veto on the budget that Trump vetoes. That is, Trump has more power to get Mexico to pay for the wall than getting Congress to pay for the wall.
9
Oh, please. Doesn't Trump realize that a great big beautiful 5.7 billion dollar wall would make it almost - almost! - impossible for him to staff his various golf clubs ? More important, that wall would have done nothing to stop a wild burst of fatal gun violence episodes occurring just this week, featuring killers who all seem to be native-born American men! The wall is nothing but a vanity project that candidate Trump promised to his base. Sorry, base, but it's just not going to happen. Mostly because it's just plain foolish.
6
There have to be Democrats all over America rolling their eyes over their Party's stunningly inane bed idea. I know mine are. Please, Madam Speaker, sit on these guys and gals. Stop them from handing their rabidly froathing opponents another opportunity to continue their lyin' talking points about Dems and border security.
1
Where’s the revolution? We should all be marching in the streets,boycotting,protesting what this fool is doing to our country. Where are the millennials? In the 60s,70s,80s, and in 2017 I marched. But I’m going on 78 and my feet can’t do it anymore. There should be a million millennial march on D C when the idiot is in the White House. For the sake of everyone, march! Protest! DO SOMETHING!
12
These idiots better be posturing and not serious about hurting the people and the economy for no real reason once again.
Someone ought to remind Sen. Graham that it does not matter what the president does and does not feel like signing, as he does not lord over a royal kingdom. A healthy supermajority behind a bipartisan piece of legislation may simply override the veto of a despot and reclaim legislative authority from the executive branch.
11
Apparently, 17 Congresspeople are no match for a profoundly dangerous man.
9
Crowdfunding could take of the wall - those who want the wall could pay for it and serve the country.
2
To teach. You are correct And those who want illegal immigration can cloth, house, and feed the illegals in their homes and not on my tax dollar
There is so much bias on this issue I feel quite ill informed.
The media has dropped the ball in that it has a job to inform and I don't have the information I need to know how well barriers work and under what circumstance.
Where are the statistics about the Sandiago and El-Paso walls?
How easy are the proposed walls to defeat? Won't even the simplest wall block vehicles? What do those who guard the border want and advise.
Walls work to prevent catch and release while sensors appear useful if the goal of the immigrant is too get caught, and released to disappear within the country. How useful is the perfect high tech system if 100% of those it detects are caught and released?
I have heard most undocumented immigrants come in on planes with Visas they overstay. However, wouldn't the most threatening come in between ports of entry without Visas? Visa overstays meet the standards to get into the country in the first place and are subject to customs inspections upon entry. From a crime and social welfare perspective, how does the impact of Visa overstays compare to border crossers? I would expect a deportee, known criminal, or a national from a country we don't issue visas to, to enter between ports of entry.
I hear many drugs come in through ports of entry and we need better technology at entry points. However without a wall wouldn't improved port of entry screening push drug smuggling toward open boarders? Media, please honestly inform!
4
@John: "I have heard most undocumented immigrants come in on planes with Visas they overstay. "
The overstayers are not coming through the airports several thousand at a time.
3
@Jp
Did you know that all those thousands of aliens pouring across the southern border have been going towards the South since 2009. That's right, net immigration over the Border has been negative since 2009. We need a wall to keep our immigrants in.
@John
Latest I have heard is border negotiations may not expand money for beds to hold those who are caught meaning many will be caught and released. What is the point in catching someone if they ate released and dissappear?
Don't think about the Mueller investigation, look over here at my big beautiful Wall.
8
It's nice to note that the rules for pay day lenders have been relaxed. That way all those workers put out of their jobs again can get those loans more easily and make the administration happy, albeit at usurious rates.
8
According to the Wall Street Journal, Rep. Lucille Roybal-Allard (D., Calif.), who leads the House Appropriations Homeland Security panel, said "A cap on ICE detention beds will force the Trump administration to prioritize deportation for criminals and people who pose real security threats, not law-abiding immigrants who are contributing to our country.”
This shows the real reason Democrats oppose the border fence is that they think migrants who cross the border illegally, overstay their visas, and commit felony offenses by falsely posing as U.S.citizens to gain employment are law abiding. What they really want it to make illegal immigration legal except for those who commit violent crimes.
6
The problem is that Congressional Republicans don't want to send Trump a clear message, namely that his wall is not wanted by most Americans, and not needed per various experts and will, therefore, not be funded and that they will override his veto if they need to in order to have a budget. On the contrary, Congressional Republicans are just waiting around to rubberstamp everything Trump puts in front of them instead of doing their jobs as a co-equal branch of the government. The fact that both sides have just resigned to these two options a) another shutdown (which is NOT a no-harm tactic by the way but extremely damaging) or b) abuse of power by the POTUS in the form of declaring a national emergency, is very disconcerting and quite chilling.
This country is more and more run like a dictatorship: Trump and the GOP don't care what the majority of most voters want, they are just interested in ramming their agenda through regardless of whether their constituents want them. They did it with the tax scam bill they pushed through by reconciliation despite massive protests, they did it with Kavanaugh, despite massive public upheaval and they are doing it with this wall. It is like we work for them as opposed to them for us. I can't emphasize enough how dangerous a times we live in right now. Our country is in serious peril.
Why is Trump still occupying the White House?
16
Despite his claims, has Donald Trump ever seen our southern border? In Tucson, we're less than 90 miles from Mexico, and I can guarantee to all concerned there's no crisis here. Never has been. The border with Mexico represents a free-trade zone that virtually everyone in Arizona takes advantage of at least once a year.
This "crisis" is another fabricated "issue" that Trump has created to gin up his base, one with absolutely no basis in fact. It's clear you have no ethics, but have you no shame, Mr. Trump?
32
I live in Arizona as well and the idea that this is some sort of “emergency” or crisis is not reality. Most of the screaming about migrants comes from hysterical reactionaries in Michigan, Maryland, Washington, rural/right-wing California etc. who hate these people on principle but not due to any measurable negative impact they have. These people just work at jobs Americans won’t take and they do it to survive. Conservatives hate them for it, as is evidenced by how they dehumanize them by calling them “illegal aliens” and complaining that housecleaners and landscapers might just have it a little too easy here. It’s a sick mindset, but they’re Trump followers, so what can you expect.
2
It's an even powered Constitutional match up between a single President and a many member Congress. I made the wrong assumption that a large group of people would be smarter than a single person. That means I was wrong in believing in the Wisdom of the masses being the hallmark of Democracy.
3
@PATRICK I couldn't agree with you more, especially re the masses who could not be bothered to vote and the masses who cannot bother to be informed or to do even basic fact finding and thinking for themselves. We have the Tyranny of the Minority abetted by the Apathy of the Majority instead of a democracy.
3
Great! This is another chance for Republicans to shoot themselves in the foot. They will of course do so immediately.
6
@Keith Dow
The entire infrastructure of the mightiest nation on earth must be closed down to placate the inflated ego of an inflatable toddler-in-chief.
11
As a Democrat who is dead set against the wall I'm dismayed that my party is unwilling to bend on the number of detentions. There were signs that Trump would compromise on the wall, and that would have been a victory. Making some concessions on detention rates would have been acceptable. The optics of this are very bad, and now it's the Democrats who are going to appear unwilling to compromise. Are claims that the party is swinging too far to the left showing some validity? I sure hope not.
13
The Republicans don't want another shut down and will likely override any Trump Veto. Then Trump will have only the Republicans to blame for not getting his "Wall."
If Trump tries the Nuclear option the Republicans will have to try to stop him in Court or accept that the Next Democrat will declare national emergencies for gun violence and climate change.
Under either option Trump chooses, it looks like 2020 would then be Trump running against the Democrats and the Republicans.
2
Why is a shut down even possible or permitted as a so-called negotiation tactic. If the current government can’t or won’t fund its operation, then everyone from the top Clown on down to the 500 or so members of Congressional Circus should be unseated and new elections held ASAP.
I nominate Kamala Harris, Adam Schaff, or AOC for the new president.
2
Once again all eyes turn to Trump. Stay tuned. Just like every spoiled brat wants to be the center of attention, everyone is hanging on Trump's words again.
And yes through this whole mess, where all the polls placed the American public's blame squarely on him, his approval ratings in Real Clear Politics has risen almost 2%.
Yes, our country is as crazy and as mixed up as him.
5
Way past time to begin impeachment and conviction for this phony lying fraud.
8
The return of the proud trump shutdown appears likely, and I hope employees who were furloughed or required to work without pay in the first one pick up where they left off---refusing to accept being yanked around by trump for his own crazy whims and refusing to work for no pay.
8
This wall/no-wall obsession has be become a pathetic imitation of the movie "Ground Hog's Day".
How many times does the impostor in the White House get to replay the same pathetic movie?
NO Wall. NO more Hard-Earned Taxpayer Money for the Wall. NO Shutdown. NO more trump.
3
If he thinks things are tough sledding now just wait. If he should somehow (Heaven forbid) get re-elected, the republicans have to defend 20 seats in the Senate in 2020. We, the Dems have our sites on flipping those. That should be enough to raise his blood pressure to a very dangerous level
4
Sadly there is no remedy in sight for ending the economic exploitation of illegals once they enter the U.S. and for example, earn $8 per hour for jobs operating heavy equipment that typically pay certified workers $50 per hour. No one knows this better than Donald Trump who recently fired a batch of illegals from Costa Rica in such a predicament. There should be legislation making it illegal to hire those without green cards working at a fraction of what certified U.S. workers typically earn. Currently such discrepancies hurt both illegals and well paid U.S. certified workers.
6
Well, the Dems blew it when they agreed to end the first shutdown without full FY funding for all remaining departments except Homeland Security. Then if they could not agree on the wall, they could have left Homeland Security to "die on the vine." Instead we are back exactly where we were three weeks ago. The Dems have passed funding bills. Time for them to show some fortitude and walk away from the table, tell the Repubs take it or leave it and go on the talk shows. If Trump goes the National Emergency route so much the better. He will open a Pandora's box that the Dems can take advantage of for decades and nullify the filibuster logjam in the Senate. They also have a lot of work to do in the House between investigations and building the party platform through the passage of bills. 2020 will be here quickly and most likely it is going to be a bloodbath for the Repubs again. A lot of people are going to suffer in the meantime, but it is time for people to realize there are consequences when you vote the way you do.
4
"they [Democrats] also demanded the limit on ICE beds, as a way to force the agency to focus on detaining migrants with criminal records ...”
Some jurisdictions are not prosecuting everyone equally. In King County, Washington, prosecutors have decided against charging some undocumented immigrants with their full crimes if the latter could lead to their deportation. In a report titled "Deported after DUI? King County says that’s not fair", KUOW radio said the prosecutor decided that, in some instances, when it comes to the undocumented "a felony charge could be reduced to a misdemeanor, or the prosecutor could choose not to bring charges at all for minor crimes like trespassing or misdemeanor theft".
A 7/31/17 NYT article titled "Prosecutors’ Dilemma: Will Conviction Lead to ‘Life Sentence of Deportation’?” told how an undocumented immigrant who was caught driving drunk with over twice the legal limit of alcohol was charged with reckless, not drunken driving so she would not have to spend time in jail, which might have drawn the attention of ICE.
The article also said, "California law now requires immigration consequences to be factored into criminal cases. The state has also passed a law allowing people to erase or revise old convictions if they successfully argue that they were not advised at the time that a guilty or no-contest plea would endanger their immigration status.”
Unlike citizens, the undocumented are not being prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
8
Democrats fighting tooth and nail to bring in more illegal immigrants. Republicans trying to keep them out. It must be an epic battle.
This is why we can't have nice things like universal healthcare, childcare or a better social safety net. Democrats spend all their political capital on illegal immigrants, and then they don't have any left for other issues.
10
@mu
that is utter nonsense. Trump had two years to make his stupid wall and did nothing. We dont; need a wall and I am not paying for it. We don't have healthcare because in case you did not notice, there was huge tax cut for the rich.
you will notice when you file your taxes.
11
@mu
Donald Trump is a Republican and he has been encouraging them to come here for decades.
8
So wrong and fact free you are. But you have enlightened us with the knowledge that the GOP strongly favor all those "nice things" you lost.
4
No one is more anti-Trump and GOP than I am, but if Democrats are asking for arbitrary limits on the number of convicted criminals, illegal or not, that can be detained - a limit (if the reported cap of 16,500 is accurate) that would already cause the release of convicted felons, that’s one of the dumber, and sure-loser - political proposals I have ever heard.
I sure hope Speaker Pelosi can get her caucus back to sanity. They have beaten Trump on the idiot wall idea - don’t let them off the political hook by pandering to their own impractical base and backing a demand that will het very very little support from Americans of both parties.
9
@David Dolgin:"I sure hope Speaker Pelosi can get her caucus back to sanity."
Who do you think is leading the posturing by the Democrats.
3
There is no reason to hold so many hardworking public employees hostage over one man's political needs. The House and Senate should pass a budget for the year and a separate bill giving the government the ability to spend any money the Mexican government pays them for building a wall.
8
Here we go again!
The "Wall" is nothing more than a multi-billion dollar distraction to keep Trump's base in-line & everyone else off the Trump Treason Watch (#TTW).
Telling that Republicans will go literally to Russia & back from their tax cuts, control over a woman's uterus, deny climate change & to slap the LGBQ(s) back into "their place". So much for American Patriotism. What a joke!
Meanwhile really issues face us everyday & everyday we lose with Trump in "control".
It's time for the establishment to demand Trump resign immediately or face prosecution for both himself his organize crime family.
10
I would think Trump wants his big, beautiful wall as much for his legacy and for a distraction from his deep dirt. Imagine the mural with his pursed lips and his MAGA hat.
2
I’m a Democrat, and I’m for the wall because it will discourage some families from making a break for it and end up dying in the desert. (8000 people so far, according to the Times.) I would rather see more legal immigration than less, but if we don’t try to enforce whatever the laws are at the time, more parents and children will die in the desert, encouraged on by lax enforcement.. It’s a big deal (and should be) when 2 kids die in confinement, but what about the hundreds of kids who died because the absence of a wall gave false encouragement to immigrants.
6
The problem with your reasoning is that most experts agree that the wall will be ineffectual and as such will not be much of a deterrent particularly for people who are desperately trying to escape from crime and persecution. And those who are deterred by the wall will be more likely to hire smugglers to bring them in packed together, hidden in trucks.
7
Perhaps the convoluted-mind imagined that a three-week respite would allow a reasonable "reset" whereby he could cancel-out his impetuous outburst where he "owned" the shutdown and "won't blame you!" for it.
Now, this latest problem is just proof once again that it's all the Democrats fault this time, as if we started from square-one with a blank sheet of paper.
But hey! We knew it was going to be bad, didn't we?
The democrats are pushing their luck.
Go to fight for something that the electorate cares about, not a limit on the number of illegal immigrants that could be detained.
Such a limit could only lead to an increase in the number of illegal immigrants that are to be released into the country.
The democrats are pandering to their "progressive" base and don't realize that this is an unpopular position.
The democrats used to be for more restrictions on immigration:
https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/illegal-immigration/us-commission-immigration-reform-barbara-jordan-commission.html
Now they are playing a short sighted game that will lead to the Donald's re-election.
10
When are we going to deport all those who overstay their visas?
Oh, and just in case you guys didn't know, the latest report from DHS states that most illegal immigration is from visa overstays. And it is those Canadians that overstay their visas in the US more than any other foreigners, and over 50% more than those from Mexico. So why are we not seeing Canadians on the news?
3
@Terece
And trump's wall would do nothing to stop any of what you describe. So why isn't the $5.2B going toward remedies for dealing with overstayed visa holders?
4
The IRS already is in a crisis, with a substantial majority of employees I trained about the new tax code.
I have flown four times in the past week, and in three different regions of the nation, TSA workers said they only had received a token amount of the back pay owned to them ( enough to pay insurance premiums). They are struggling to survive. And they readily volunteer that no respectable nation does this to front line security employees of a nation.
What kind of a so-called conservative fails to keep the TSA workers paid and in Good morale? Or fails to prepare for the tax season? Or fails to have CDC fully staffed during the largest measles epidemic in decades, and during the flu season that kills so many elderly citizens?
Would Trump ever shut down one of his golf courses or hotels while basic business negotiations were occurring? Of course not!
Trump is a failure as CEO of the nation if he cannot even keep it open.
12
I have no problem with the Democrats not increasing the money for the wall as long as the difference between what the President asked for is allocated to other items of border security. THAT IS THE STICKING POINT. While the Democrats claim they are for border security, the amounts they have offered for total border security are totally inadequate. That number needs to be at least $10 billion. Anything less is a joke and clearly demonstrates this is not about the wall. It is about OPEN BORDERS. They need to put up or shut up.
4
@Art B
Where on earth do you get your "at least $10 billion" figure? To be polite, I'll say it's out of thin air. No one supports open borders, we have and fund a huge Border Patrol as it is, and illegal crossings are much lower than in the past. I do not want a wall, no matter who pays or what it costs. Our country has always been proud of the fact we have these two long borders, north and south, which do not need to be fortified because our neighbors are our ALLIES not our enemies.
1
There is an easy solution to prevent another shutdown, and that resolution is to bring a bill to Trump with $2 billion in funding for border security, which he will veto then have Congress override that veto and pass a spending bill. All Mitch McConnell has to do is take the vote in the Senate. He knows he has the support to override Trump, but he is too afraid. So, again, the choice is up to Mitch. Don’t blame the Democrats.
17
I hope that Trump goes for it, and sets the precedent of declaring a national emergency.
Then, when President Alexandra Ocasio Cortez is sworn in in January 2021, her first act as President can be to declare a national emergency because of climate change, and implement the Green New Deal to save our country (and the rest of the planet!)
4
What's really infuriating is the number of people who can't seem to distinguish between a legal immigrant and a trespasser, terming both "immigrants".
“It’s frustrating to know that he is still unwilling to acknowledge the truth about immigrants, the truth about the border,” said Ms. Escobar,
6
"...talks over border security break down..."; and Trump says, "That was close, I'm running out of shiny objects, whew!" Like the bygone lies regarding weed or gays, once the lights click on, and the GOP cockroaches scurry away in search of other tidbits, people with open minds see that immigration and socialism AREN'T the boogeymen they need to promote fear and pick our pockets.
1
Love it: A “paltry” 5 billion! Lemme fish around my pocket for that. As for “after 8 years of Dem rule” — who’s been in charge the last 2? OK, last one: “tearjerker” stories of laid-off federal workers? So, paychecks are so 1990?
7
The men and women of Congress, the Senate, and the West Wing need to know that We the People are watching and we are not amused by your immaturity, brinksmanship, and failure to do your jobs!
.
At some point real change is going to happen and when it does, you, the current crop of “leaders” in Washington will be lucky to be elected dog catcher.
9
Who are these "otherwise law abiding residents"? Any illegal "immigrant" that is working is doing so illegally. If they are working on the books, they have used a forged Social Security or Green Card and committed perjury to complete an I-9 form. If they are working off the books, they aren't paying taxes.
What kind of border security and immigration system will Democrats put forward, fund, and defend? Let's debate whether theirs would work.
9
@Kurfco
Suggest that you address your comments to the White House occupant who has hired many so-called illegal workers at his various clubs. The world, believes Trump, must function to suit his immediate needs. If not, he’ll declare a national emergency.
11
The WH wants negotiations to fail. Trump wants to declare a fake national emergency. He wants the courts to block him.
Every step Trump takes to further breakdown our system is a win for Vladimir Putin.
5
The wall that is most needed, is a high security prison wall with Donald Trump, his crooked family and cronies all locked up inside for a few decades.
Lock them up and give Hillary the key.
That will make America great again.
11
I really hope that NYT gives as much coverage to what El Paso has to say as what trump has to yell at his rally ...Give Beto the coverage , and ignore trump ...That would really send him over the edge !
8
@Paul
It seems funny that you are mocking Trump for trying to control immigration when your own country has traditionally kept a tight lid on who could immigrate there.
1. Canada has had a “third party”agreement with the U.S. which says that anyone who needs asylum must seek it in the first safe country they come to. Until the last couple of years, when immigrants realized they could get around the agreement by crossing into Canada at a place other than an official entryway, this agreement shielded you from migrants from countries to the south of us who claimed to need asylum. The fact that foreigners are now entering Canada along your southern border and requesting asylum is upsetting much of the Canadian electorate.
2. Over the years, Canada has managed to deter virtually all illegal immigration, and provinces do not want to pay the hospital bills of the relatively few immigrants who manage to live illegally within their borders.
Instead of making fun of Trump, you could try persuading other Canadians to open your southern border to anyone who wants to live in your country. Beto wants to legalize all illegal immigrants. Maybe he would work with you.
3
Democrats must stay strong — not a dollar for a wall, but radar, cameras and more personnel are fine — and hopefully the courts will dismiss Stephen Miller’s claim that a barrier with “slats” is needed to protect our troops. That’s rich; U.S. citizens along the border aren’t in danger because there is no emergency, but troops are. Don’t think there will be another shutdown, as Trump was overwhelmingly blamed for No. 1 and No. 2 would be a disaster.
5
"...the wall would be built to protect the more than 5,000 active-duty troops now operating near the southwestern border or deploying there soon." Protect them from who, hungry and tired families with backpacks and walking sticks? Who does this stable genius and the unspeakable Miller think they are kidding?
915
@RDG They must be protected from the military industrial complex and Trump.
32
...the wall would be built to protect the more than 5,000 active-duty troops now operating near the southwestern border or deploying there soon.". This is like killing your parents and then asking the judge for mercy because you are an orphan.
72
@RDG The families would sneak across the border if we did not have barriers. The last thing we need is more anchor babies.
11
Why did this not happen when Trump had the House and the Senate. After he realised Mexico was not going to pay (which should have day one of his tenure) he then should have told his GOP boys and girls to get on and get it done. Isn't that what a smart President would have done to keep his campaign promise?
13
As opposed to shutting down part of the government what I would like to see is all of the government agencies walk off the job if president stupid won't agree to keeping the government open because he didn't get his wall.
This is what is known as the terrible two's.
4
@BTO
Actually, I think it is known as the terrible seventy-twos.
2
Whether Republican or Democrat or Independent we can all agree the government is creating UNCERTAINTY
in abundance.
4
It boggles the mind that Stephen Miller is the president’s top domestic policy adviser...and says a lot about the scary state of the Trump administration.
27
If President Trump could sell the naming rights to the detention centers we would have a deal.
9
El Paso and Ciudad Juarez are one contiguous metropolitan area separated only by a wall. When Democrats regain the White House they can tear down the wall and make El Paso like Ciudad Juarez again.
"Because of a marked increase in homicides throughout Ciudad Juarez, including an increase in shootings in the highly frequented downtown area during daylight hours, U.S. government personnel are prohibited from travelling to downtown Ciudad Juarez without advance permission from the Regional Security Office for the next 30 days. The restriction covers both official and personal travel and includes the area west of Avenida de Las Americas. All approved official travel must be in an armored vehicle."
7
Mexico, our nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Please pay for the wall. Don't keep us waiting.
Signed: a trump supporter (and 800,000 government employees)
1
Dear Republicans,
Your representatives in congress do not want the wall. They just said that to get your votes. This is all politics and has nothing to do with immigration policy whatsoever. Their only goal is to reduce taxes for the wealthy and deregulate corporations. You have been used.
Sincerely,
Truth
29
I personally hope President Trump takes the nuclear option. Declare a national emergency over something that's been going on for decades, like Americans suffering and dying unnecessarily for lack of adequate and timely medical care, like climate change that has already caused additional deaths and destruction from storms, heat waves and wildfires, like mass shootings on top on daily gun violence. Surely the federal courts and Supreme Court Republicans have packed will affirm his emergency powers and when we get a progressive Democrat in the Oval Office, we can get some things done.
392
@abigail49
While I agree with your sentiments, placing "nuclear" two scant words away from "Trump" is terrifying.
65
@abigail49
1) Democrats dont have what it takes, and therefore never would, declare a national emergency over the items you describe. That is just not how Democrats function and work. Don't mistake the Progressive wing of the Democratic party that would do such a thing (but is in the minority, i.e. AOC) with the corporate Democratic leadership, which includes Ms Pelosi and Mr Schumer and thus the majority of Establishment Democrats who do not actually even believe in things like universal healthcare and the green deal. last time I checked, Ms Pelosi was mocking the "Green New Deal" calling the "green new whatever." She'd sooner declare a national emergency to bail out her wall street donors.
2) If Trump were to declare a national emergency over such a thing, it would not only be a gross abuse of power, but you can rest assured that any court that upholds this abuse of power would also move to uphold his abuses in other areas as well. After all, what is to stop Trump from declaring the results of the elections in 2020 invalid? To assume that a corrupt court would do the right thing when it comes down to it (or care about precedent) is extremely naive.
19
@Judy "Democrats dont [sic] have what it takes"--to do what? Become dictators? That seems to me to be a point in their favor.
38
Everyone can relax.
There won't be a shutdown.
There will be a border fence extension. One way or another.
4
There is ZERO reason why the WH can't just sign another simple continuing resolution to allow negotiations to continue.
Trump does not have to extort the American people. He just enjoys doing so.
9
Or, the House and Senate could submit a bipartisan bill to the President. If he vetos it they can proceed to an override. The outcome of that second vote will identify the party hacks vs the true representatives in both parties.
10
How can Democrats be for both border security and sanctuary cities?
9
You’re kidding, right?
3
Because, a, they aren't going to expose folks who have been here for years and decades keeping their noses clean while waiting for an adult and humane solution? And, b, recognize the need to tighten things up at the border; this their $5.7 billion proposal?
Don Trump has perpetrated the biggest Protection Racket I have ever heard of.
10
Partial government shutdown should be matched with a partial shutdown of the air transportation system. Like the Washington DC part.
Seems fair, right?
4
So Dems are willing to shutdown the American gov’t over a demand that ICE reduce beds for detainees, detainees that have no right to be here.
The Dems are open borders radicals and should be treated as such.
11
No, they're really not, Ed. Trump is the one shutting down the government, remember? He said so. He said he's "wear the mantle." (Not having any idea what that meant.)
9
What happened to passing bi-partisan legislation to keep "govt. shutdowns" from being a political bargaining chip? You start there and suddenly, dare I say it, you must return to members of the the House and Senate (in particular the spineless Republicans) doing their job! Oops forgot - rational thinking (including discussion of the implications of decisions on the welfare of the people whom there were elected to serve) and the use of "critical thinking" skills, and of course facts have gone out the window.
Republicans - the free ride for the past 30 to 40 years is over! Time to start serving ALL Americans!
4
How many people read trump's tweets with anything other than cringing bemusement -- or perhaps horror at the thought that such an ignoramus is POTUS? They are nothing but surrealistic rants, littered with gratuitous capitalizations that are probably intended to strengthen his "point" but that really only serve to highlight his degree of illiteracy.
I miss having a president with some smarts and sound judgment. Please hurry, Mr. Mueller.
12
Democrats need to fund the wall. GOP needs to concede some ICE rules. Both then need to create some understandable legislation and Trump needs to sign it. Everybody can declare victory and we are onto more serious business.
2
Correct, like ridding trump from the WH!
1
Trump's psychosis including profound hatred and paranoia might cost us all 5,700 Million dollars. A competent, non-military psychiatrist would have cost far less.
3
The border wall issue is not necessarily all or nothing. Moderate security at moderate price would seem to be a reasonable compromise. A couple of billion dollars in security to protect the most dangerous crossings seems reasonable to me.
If there were any bipartisan cooperation, such a compromise would be a no brainer. Saving lives at dangerous crossings at moderate cost is good policy.
4
If you check you will probably find that the places where a physical barrier makes sense already have physical barriers. It is building a huge barrier across spaces nobody tries to cross anyway that is being objected to. You have gotta love McConnell though, the dems ask the administration to stop locking up people whose only offense is overstaying their visa and he rants about restrictions on locking up violent offenders.
2
@Santa. 300,000 people cross per year. Thousands die per year. You might want to explain how that suggests that the most dangerous crossings are secure.
1
@michjas Actually the number that die each year is in the hundreds not thousands . 294 in 2017 according to CBP. Most of the 300,000 crossings occur where there are already barriers. I'm not saying those barriers couldn't stand to be improved but they can only do so much. Build a 30 foot wall and someone will build a 31 foot ladder. You could accomplish much more with better surveillance and more agents than just building a higher fence.
1
The wall would be built to protect the troops? Don't send troops and a wall would not be needed.
11
Those migrants Trump fears were mostly created by a massive hurricane named Mitch followed by a decade of drought, wiping out their puny plantation based economies. He'd never tell you that, though. The climate crisis will be producing more and more refugees. It looks like Australia might be next, followed by parts of India. Where will they go? Where will you go when the climate crisis reaches you? Will it be fires, floods, droughts, sea level rise or having your resources overwhelmed by desperate refugees where you live?
3
If this is really about limiting the number of beds in detention centers, and the democrats are willing to shut down the government over that, this will not play well for them. The democrats have already won. If they push this, they will look like reckless fanatics. Let's hope that they don't.
12
"To stave off a court challenge, one proposal circulating among some White House officials, including those close to Stephen Miller, the president’s top domestic policy adviser, is to claim that the wall would be built to protect the more than 5,000 active-duty troops now operating near the southwestern border or deploying there soon."
LOL. They must think judges and attorneys are as dumb as many of their cult followers.
8
I used to respect Lindsay Graham. Not so much now that he has turned into a trump lackey.
I wonder what trump has promised him?
4
@Anne Ross
Sen. McCain died and Graham's "independence" died with him.
1
The Democrats need to step up their messaging game. Here's a thought - we don't need "beds for violent offenders" because, guess what, they're already in jail. And if the Repubs say "they've been released" - you say, "so they have paid their debt to society and are no longer considered dangerous so you still don't need to detain them." The fact of the matter is - and I speak from personal experience - it is outrageously expensive to detain people and largely unnecessary - it is mostly so that lazy deportation officers don't have to go pick people up when it is time for them to go - there is NO OTHER REASON to detain potential deportees. The statute allows for reasonable detention so that the person is available at the time of deportation, but people are held for months and often years, at monumental cost to the taxpayers, just to make it easier on the deportation officers. The entire process is broken and the Repubs DO NOT have the answers. NY Times - do a little research on this and get with the program. The government has been whacked over and over again on this issue. See the case of Zadvydas as a starting point.
1
Let's hear the side of the argument which favors allowing people to illegally sneak into the country.
12
No one is making that argument, of course.
3
@Dan
I will.
Undocumented workers are more law-abiding, and they pay more into the Treasury than they take out, they work for less, and they work harder.
Without them our economy would be depressed and inflation would would increase. They also send money back to their families and that helps with stability outside the US.
Furthermore, the population rate in the US is about 15% below replacement rate. We need far more undocumented workers.
I would like to suggest a national holiday dedicated to undocumented workers.
Any state of emergency declaration is a lie. This is all ego and the stance of an ignorant monarch and his followers, whom he somehow has mesmerized. I am far from a staunch democrats....have been critical of a great deal they have and haven't done. But this new administration is making them look good. And then there are the clear -eyed newly elected representatives who are able to grasp and articulate the real state of emergency - our climate, our antiquated and greedy health care system, and our division of of wealth, which is growing rapidly and will eventually put an end to capitalism. It won't be socialism that does that - it will be the failure of capitalism and those who use it for pure greed and power. Those who are afraid of socialism - each and every - benefit from social benefits today. But when their "fearless" leader says we will never allow socialism to take over he not only vastly misrepresents what is being promoted and is in use now, but is throwing fear once again into his followers and creating a much more scary world than it already is by diverting attention away from what we really need to do.
3
The Democrats have succumbed to the continuing extortion that was Trump's threat to another shut down or declaration of a national emergency to get his wall. They are in a weak negotiating position and asking to limit beds to house those that violate immigration law whether violent criminals or those overstaying visas doesn't make sense and makes them look weak on enforcing immigration laws. Democrats should have demanded for a permanent solution to those under DACA that would allow them to stay in the USA and ultimately gain citizenship. Make Trump refuse this since it doesn't make sense not to provide this protection to those brought here as children who have behaved as good citizens while here.
3
Democrats just help waste $7 trillion on wars in the Middle East.
Trump wants $5 billion for border security here in the US.
Democrats complain that would be way too much.
And they think it is a winning position.
10
Republicans started the unnecessary Iraq war so they could make money. Did you forget that part, Kenny?
3
@Dan
Which is why I said helped.
Clearly wasteful war spending is a bipartisan effort.
5
"Mr. Trump has told allies that while he would grudgingly accept a border security figure of about $2 billion, he was still considering using his executive authority to declare an emergency.
“The Wall will get built one way or the other!” Mr. Trump wrote on Twitter on Saturday afternoon."
So, he's going to build the Wall anyway.
It's a New York Protection Racket from a New York Don.
Trump and those who agree with building a Wall of Hate are anti-social Cowards afraid of poor Hispanics coming here after hearing of all our riches fervently espoused by a Billionaire President. Are you really surprised all those Hispanics are coming here to a land of riches?
Cowards all!
If you didn't know, it's the cops and feds who gain from new laws to justify their sadistic empire building ways and bloated paychecks. That is who makes laws in our nation.
The Republicans control the Television Industry who controls what we see and hear. I'm sure Trump knows this well having come from N.B.C.
The Trump Wall of Hate is an outgrowth of Trump's addiction to Television and you all should know it to save yourselves.
Like the song says; "Paranoia, the Destroyer".
We have another hate riddled Dictator like those before him.
Pathetic -
Trump’s made up “crisis” and non stop lying supported by the now morally bankrupt Republican Party.
No ones going to give this conman Trump a wall - let him call a fake national emergency and sit in court - that where most of Trump’s associates seem to be spending most of their time anyway.
The ones not sitting in prison, that is.
2
Republicans are the deciders.
Democrats do not believe that Trump’s Wall is worth building. They will accept some barriers that are reasonable. Why? Because Trump’s Wall is a symbol that immigrants from Latin America are unwelcome and it’s forbidding appearance projects that message. That’s what Trump’s base wants. That’s why Democrats call it to be a proposal based upon racism. Democrats are supportive of good borders security and of changing immigration policies to control immigration but also to assure that it’s fair to everyone.
Trump has nothing but contempt for anyone who relies upon law and fair institutions to live good lives. For him the only basis of a good life is plenty of money. With great amounts of money he has acted however he feels and has never been held responsible. Being President is an amusing experience for him and playing on the fears and bigotries of a significant proportion of the electorate allows him to continue amusing himself.
2
There it is,
right there in the NYT, right in front of everybody:
"The hang-up was not primarily the amount of funding for a border barrier, but a Democratic effort to force Immigration and Customs Enforcement to focus on detaining migrants with criminal records instead of people who have overstayed their visas by limiting the number of beds it has in detention centers....
"[Dems] they also demanded the number of beds for ICE, which detains immigrants who are already in the country, be limited to 16,500."
So, even when the Wall is not the primary issue,
Dems just cannot bring themselves to seriously support
any strong immigration control measures.
In recent months, the Dems and others who claim that there is no serious problem on the Southern Border have ballyhooed recent reports that, supposedly, visa overstays have in the past year or two outnumbered illegal border crossers.
Now, they are strangling funding for detention centers.
How else do they propose dealing with the supposed visa overstay problem?
Dems disingenuously claim they are not pro-open-borders.
They may not say they are pro-open-borders.
But at every opportunity, they resist tooth and nail nearly every effort to seriously control immigration.
That makes them de facto pro-open-borders.
btw.
You also will not find Dems supporting the most effective measure to go after employers who hire illegal aliens --
namely, mandatory e-Verify.
12
Well we know Trump won't since he's one of the biggest offenders of hiring illegal immigrants.
What a hypocrite.
2
Democrats have been pushing for e-verify and prosecuting employers for decades.
2
Democrats object to the number of detention beds because they think illegal borders crossers should not be arrested, detained or inconvenienced.
10
Not at all, it is because of what we have witnessed in the last year, forcible separation of parents seeking asylum from minor children, failing to obey court orders to return children, and most importantly, losing the children they took.
3
Can you cite any source(s) to verify such an assertion?
Trump is going to announce his police action and ride down there on a white horse, white gold cart I mean. He is incapable of negotiating in good faith. These three weeks are just for show. Have we not been paying attention?
This needs to be taken one step at a time to place the responsibility where it lies. At this point the bipartisan commitee on border security should focus on border security and nothing else. Detention beds for illegal immigrants already in the US should probably be a separate bill, or the commitee should meet in the middle or flip a coin. In any case, the commitee needs to pass something. Once the Commitee passes something the obligation is for the the House and Senate leadership to hold votes on it, no matter what's in it. If they obstruct it as McConnell is almost sure to do, that's their fault and they own any shutdown that results. If a vote is held and doesn't pass the full Senate or House, everyone who votes against it owns the shutdown. Once passed, if the President refuses to sign it and shuts down the government, the President owns the shutdown. If an agreement on border security isn't reached, the Senate needs to pass an indefinite continuing resolution or the funding bills already passed by the House weeks ago. To try to guess what the President will sign is wrong. Everyone just needs to do their jobs, step by step, and the blame for a shutdown lies with whomever obstructs the process when it's their turn to act.
1
Get used to putin’s puppets' shutdowns, America.
During the last one, there were 18 plane crashes that were not even investigated. This is making America safe, for putin.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/31/us/ntsb-accidents-government-shutdown.html
3
Trump is trying to create a problem to get attention away from his past taxes and his ties to Putin. There are so many immigrants that are currently working in the US which is helping the US economy strengthen. Walk through NYC and there are thousands of immigrants working in construction, hotels, restaurants, all to the benefit of us all. Republicans who are anti union are paying immigrant construction workers less then union wages. Then after profiting they turn on these immigrants. Hypocrisy at its worse. Trump hired Polish immigrants in construction years ago and then did not pay them many years ago. Hypocrisy!
7
Before America thinks about getting rid of Maduro in Venezuela, what about a clean up in the Trump House of Horrors! Get rid of the Liar.
7
The man is unfit to hold Office. Trying to work with him is like herding cats. Time to use the 25th Amendment.
10
The Democrats make no sense to want to cap the beds of convicted felons. They seemed to have stopped representing Americans or anyone who respects the rule of law.
9
it doesn't make sense because its not true. The Democrats want ICE to focus on detaining those with a criminal history and stop using beds for those who overstayed their visas, which is a CIVIL offense. Prioritization is more cost effective, also.
4
@Alexgri
Wait! Why are American taxpayers being asked to give nice beds to people who have entered the US illegally and who have a criminal record? These people should be deported, not housed and fed. What am I missing? Why would anyone want more beds for these people?
3
I'm sorry, I thought you were speaking of the President and a passle of his top appointees from his election campaign to the White House.