Unconscionable that supposed “non-profits” don’t pay property taxes but use city services (police, fire, ambulance, sanitation), forcing the rest of us to subsidize their “missions” even if we consider them ridiculous or repulsive.
9
I would encourage critics of TWS to peruse the church’s website. Notice the diversity of clergy. Not even the finest investment firms can boast this type of inclusion and vast demographic representation. Notice the outreach programs to the incarcerated, to the unhoused, to youth, to public schools. The Senior Rector encourages a Caribbean clergy/priest colleague to lead a pastoral conversation for the whole congregation rather than allowing white male privilege to prevail.
Why would we judge a spiritual community for prospering in an effort to help others? This is an Episcopal Church that affirms the Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. This church has been a wise steward of its resources and it is in a position to help others. Churches should not be struggling and neither should their clergy or congregations. My heart breaks for the churches in the article that can not pay for basic repairs. Let’s not begrudge a growing church the opportunity to make an impact in a strategic area of NYC! Let’s use this model to encourage other churches toward wise stewardship and service to those on the margins!
Let’s remember that Joseph of Arimathea was a wealthy man who buried Jesus’ body in his newly hewn sepulchre. Jesus was a friend to the rich and the poor. There is nothing wrong with prospering financially! It is about stewardship and ethics. How do we acquire wealth (through honest means and wise investment)? How do we use our resources (to leverage social injustice)?
52
@M. Chanta Bhan I actually agree with several of your points. I would like to hear the answer to your last question: How does Trinity use its substantial wealth to improve social justice?
5
Rich guy double talk. I could reasonably depute every argument you put forward. Religion is a franchise and big business. You should not pay taxes on you religious foot print but should on income derived from business practices.
14
@Pete in Downtown You might want to click on the "Social Justice" tab on the Trinity Wall Street website.
5
This is not just a financial fairness question, but a moral one. I visited Trinity years ago while I was in the city for a medical consultation for a serious illness at a hospital in Manhattan. A friend travelled with me and, being an Episcopalian, I wanted to see Trinity and I wanted my friend to like it.
The sermon that week was about wealth. It might have been been about "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24
It was either that or "You cannot serve God and mammon." Matthew 6:24.
Either way, I remember being incredibly disappointed at the obvious rationalizing sermon that didn't just ignore the message in the Bible passage, but went to great lengths to de-fang it and effectively declare it irrelevant.
Who is this church serving with their multi-million dollar renovation and deals? People are leaving churches, and especially the Episcopal church, in droves because of exactly this kind of thing.
23
My middle name is Brevoort. A testament to my great-Grandmother's munificence is carved in stone on an inside wall. My grandparents were married there. A college friend's uncle designed the building.
As a 10 year old at an Episcopal School I was asked to write a paper entitled, " Am I my brother's keeper?"
I never forgot the lesson.
Churches in other parts of the city, not so blessed by location, nor endowed by families like mine that got in on the IPO, are suffering, as this article shows. Their communities need the multiple benefits churches provide.
I would be pleased were Trinity, which sits on what was my family's farm, and further endowed by their enlightened interest over centuries, consider the simple lesson I learned fifty-two years ago.
Yes. I am my brothers' keeper.
My grandmother once asked my grandfather which was the paramount virtue, and he replied in mild astonishment given how obvious the answer: charity.
Trinity has been blessed. Share that with other churches that have similar missions in their communities.
44
@Jay Dwight
I was about to write a similar suggestion, but now I don't have to. Yours is powerful and comes with historical authority. Thank you.
I also wonder why the church shouldn't be taxed on that part of its great wealth that comes from, and goes to, real estate investments.
14
@Jay Dwight
The better part of noblesse is oblige.
8
And use the taxes to find frivolous workers comp claims from retiring city union workers? No thanks
1
When I was a boy growing up in Harlem, Trinity Church underwrote our neighborhood church, the Chapel of the Intercession. It was a diverse congregation and progressive. The angelic Leslie Uggams sang in the choir. The vicar flew down to Selma to march with Dr. King. On Christmas Eve, we recited The Night Before Christmas at the grave of its author, Clement Clark Moore. Mayor Ed Koch is a more recent addition to the expansive graveyard.
It is easy and fashionable to tear down institutions today. But when they are gone, who will mend the fabric of our society, or speak for the common good? I am glad Trinity has a healthy endowment. I feel it will do much good.
58
There is no more perfect symbol of contemporary New York than Trinity Church.
I’m not sure why any church should have a $6 billion portfolio (and be tax exempt to boot!). $6 billion would feed a lot of poor people – isn’t that what Jesus said? Heal the sick, feed the hungry – “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
The real symbol of Trinity Church is not its steeple, but its new $350 million glass tower. I’m sure the church needs “rejuvenation” to look presentable for the New York billionaires who need to assuage their consciences within its ”’ aesthetic beauty and quiet confines’” after gaming the financial markets. Jesus threw the money lenders out of the temple, but he has no authority whatsoever in the biggest house of worship in New York – Wall Street.
Let the poor churches be razed. Perhaps Trinity can buy them up and put up more high-rise symbols of wealth.
It’s no small irony that Alexander Hamilton is buried in the Trinity cemetery with a sparkling white marble obelisk. Hamilton believed government must align itself with the richest elements of society to make itself stronger. Hamilton’s deeply ingrained elitism, his disdain for the lower classes and his fear of democratic politics was, of course, overlooked in the blockbuster Broadway play that bears his name.
Apparently on the campus of Trinity Church, as on Broadway, it’s about how much money you can make, and not about the truth.
59
@Michael I really don't see where NY worships Wall St any more that any one else. As things go today most everyone has stock in some sort of investment or pension fund or 401k. Wall Street has more condos than banks today as people trade from their living room.
4
The NYT did a major disservice by not mentioning that churches are indeed taxed for income-producing investments, i.e. the stuff that seems non-churchy is taxed.
A further disservice was not articulating enough about Trinity's work in social justice.
From the comments, the article clearly created a number of misperceptions about both the tax situation and the amount of significant social justice work that that church produces.
8
I completely agree!
3
I have lots of qualms about the church owning and managing all this real estate. But I do find it rich that one of the people interviewed for this article, Rachel McCleary works for a non-profit that does the same thing - Harvard University. Or at least they did back in the day when I grew up nearby. It was a big bone of contention with locals.
4
Trinity also educates children at its preschool...costs $40,000 a year.
I'm glad they give all that money to the suffering poor - oh wait ...
2
Mr. Weisbrod now sits on the MTA Board. What he does is a big mystery but he is seen on the dais at their public hearings. With $6 billion dollars they church can't build homeless shelters, schools and more housing in needed areas or help upgrade subway stations near some of their houses of worship? Can we say piggy piggy piggy?
2
So sayeth Tammy Faye Bakker, sitting on the right hand of her celestial tax accountant, "I am soooo green with envy!"
More of the usual attacks on religion by the hate Christianity all the time NYTs. If this were a mosque, the paper would be mute.
4
It’s a horrible place. It’s not a church at all. It’s a racist, left wing real estate company that hides behind religion to push “social justice”. They are breaking laws all over the place from employing illegals to not reporting income tax properly for clergy. The IRS and DoL should launch an investigation. The Vestry and senior ministry team should be dissolved. The investing in South Africa that they are doing is so unethical given what is going on in that country right now. Shame on them - the greater Episcopalian community knows it but relies too heavily on their money to raise their hands and speak up.
2
Think of all the good humanitarian work that a wealthy tax exempt organization like this could do. People in many parts of the world are starving and without decent water or sanitation. Does the city and diocese really need an extravagant tower? It sounds like they can have the steeple and help the people too.
Maybe some of the church leaders should take a tour of some of the rougher parts of Africa and central America. These areas are also in need of education . Go do some good and sell your religion.
As a fallen away Episcopalian I see a lot of nice buildings and nicely dressed people on Sunday morning but not much substance.
1
The modern era requires a re-assessment of the tax free status of churches and their holdings.
In addition, the "beautiful wall" that must be repaired/rebuilt is that Wall of Separation of Church and State. This country is supposed to be a secular country, and as the percentage of non-religious people is increasing, the influence of religion in our politics has been growing. Enough!
5
Beginning in 1701 through the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts Trinity Church began to teach catechism to slaves and Indians residing in Manhattan. That ended with the American Revolution, but in 1785 members of Trinity Church and the church itself help found the African Free School.
Trinity Church is rich because it had a very early start in real estate development. It also was found on an island in what has arguably become the financial center of the world.
It has the funds to revive its educational initiatives. It can with little difficulty create a Regis or Hershey Academy type school to serve a gifted or particularly disadvantaged segment of NYC society.
They may lack imagination but it would be utilitarian.
2
Churches in New York State do not pay property taxes on buildings they use for their religious purpose. However they do pay property tax on real property they use for income. Congregations that continue to worship in churches that were built when the congregation was much larger certainly have a problem when their building begins to fall down around their ears. It is very hard for a small congregation to come up with the millions of dollars required to repair a slate or copper roof, for example.
3
I have a problem with anybody or any organization being tax free. In this case Trinity Church uses a lot of city services that all tax payers pay for while they get them for free. I pay more property tax on my modest house than they pay on 6 billion in holdings and they are not alone. Check out the Catholic Churcher's cathedral and buildings by Rockefeller Center!
7
@Thomas Renner As Susan and Stuart said, " Churches in New York State do not pay property taxes on buildings they use for their religious purpose. However they do pay property tax on real property they use for income. " So it is very unlikely you pay more taxes than Trinity.
3
Money has displaced or replaced God for some time ("Almighty dollar" phrase had its genesis about 200 years ago). So if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
All those who ostensibly care about 'doing the right thing' ought to know that "glass towers' will, and do, kill many, many birds. 'Big Deal', you say? It is to the birds.
2
Alas, just another shining example of hypocrisy, not that different from #MeToo" or the Blackfaced college yearbook photos of disgraced politicians who should have known better. More's the pity.
1
Tax breaks should be given to secular non for profit institutions that are helping the poor and needy and do not peddle ancient mythologies.
3
They should be feeding and housing the poor. This is so wrong. I’ll take comfort that in 50 to 100 years it will partially under water with rising oceans from climate change.
1
Another example of how we have allowed the rich to get richer at the expense of the public.There is no rationale,religious,ethical or legal, that should allow this kind of abuse . Churches should be held accountable as corporations when they exceed the basic tenets of what churches were designed to do when they received the tax exemption. Catholic is the most egregious but all the larger churches are complicit in abusing this loophole. It is obvious that the pious patrons of the church will not monitor as they should so the IRS should do it for them.
5
The only reason to exempt a church from taxes is the Constitutional clause. When a church's largess go beyond that needed to maintain the church proper, all the rest should be taxed. I wonder how we would handle the Catholic Church?
3
This sounds like another example of the 1% versus the rest. A six billion dollar bank account and a giant glass tower belie the teachings of Jesus: One cannot worship both God and Mammon.
That money can do a lot more good, if given to help the poor, than a big shiny building ever will.
5
I'm having trouble understanding the point of this article. Trinity Church is a very liberal church, with possibly the most diverse congregation in the city. I think it's a tragedy when beautiful old churches are threatened with demolition, but how is this Trinity's fault? Some churches are doing well and others are not - and this article is very interesting as to the reasons why - but there's an element of shaming and blaming here which makes no sense.
17
@RJ, I agree, it's difficult to discern the point of the article. The headline indicated that it might be a portrait of Trinity Church, but it was cursory and gave some people false impressions. For example, a quick look at the website shows that Trinity Church does a great deal for the poor. Several comments have given information that the article really should have provided, that income-producing activities are taxed.
So it's an article that rambles about churches.
2
@RJ
The Complaining NYT - Complaining is their mantra.
It's every day of the week.
Check out the op-ed page - that's a non-stop cryfest.
3
Pity Trump didn't attend this Church if only to learn how to make a deal in real estate without foreign bank loans. Regarding this church's tax exempt qualification, it should be, and certainly cannot be difficult, to separate the income from the parishioners and other donations from the very lucrative income from real estate - and tax that portion of this very wealthy church. It's not rocket science folks. Hamilton's grave site, as a National Memorial would also be exempt.
5
@Pauline Hartwig - Trump Celestial Towers?
There's just no way to know whether a church with 6 billion is doing good or bad without seeing it's books and the tax returns of it's affiliates. But as an observer of American culture, it is fair to say that it is a terrific example of who we are in the 21st Century. We admire wealth rather than character. We believe it's OK for for companies (and churches apparently) to become so large that they can prevent competition---and managing their wealth provides jobs for "money managers", who no doubt work for the same institutions populating lower Manhattan. Meanwhile, the middle class shrinks as it's member buy lottery tickets and enviously watch "reality TV" instead of getting on a picket line shouting ENOUGH!
4
I wonder how the legal tax breaks of the church compare to the skeevy ones that made the Trump family rich. And are there individuals getting disproportionately rich off of the church’s success?
8
Hmmm. I wonder if the Trinity's investment with Norges Bank Investment Management (NBIM) is tax free and is financing our Norwegian public pensions? Churches in Norway are struggling with maintenance, too. This will be all over the news here on Monday. If it is true that they don't pay taxes, the Ethics Committee will have a lot to answer for.
2
The church is no different from NYU, Columbia or other large real estate developers in NYC with deep pockets for lobbying the Mayor and Corey Johnson. They change neighborhoods for their benefit only without any thought to effect. Changing development in what is now Hudson Square led to the "Trump" hotel. Or similarly Corey Johnson selling a community on the redevelopment of St Johns Terminal (https://nyti.ms/2hT1E3G) which won't bring the senior housing promised and instead now a Google office tower. Everyone is bought in this city by developers.
9
The mormon church is worth well over 100 billion! They donate almost nothing to charity, and have some of the most ornate temples in the world. Members are not allowed into these temples without PAYING tithing. Going to the temple is required to go to heaven. You have to pay to go to heaven in the mormon church! That's why they are one of the wealthiest churches in the world.
15
@Dan
There are wealthier churches than Trinity by far, and in those cases their money indeed goes to flamboyantly ornate mega-churches -- and also to their flamboyantly rich "pastors," with their private jets. In those cases too, the money comes not from real estate investments on land given hundreds of years ago but from the pocketbooks of the poor schnooks exhorted to fork over contributions.
The New York Times could stand to investigate the Scientologists too, but no one does.
6
@Dan The Mormon religion has 16 million members, gives $40 million in aid to 139 countries, has 10,000 social services volunteers (not to be confused with 67,0000 missionaries), and runs 4 universities with an enrollment of 350,000 students. The worldwide Mormon religion supports 4,971 churches that are run by volunteers. If the Mormon religion were to have the same assets per church as Trinity, its total value would be 30,000 billion or 300 times its current value.
Comparing Trinity Church as itself, to any religion in the world with thousands of churches is illogical, not to mention your conclusion that they are particularly wealthy when there are single people in the world who have as nearly as much wealth as the whole Mormon religion.
As for supporting a faith to ensure salvation, you have isolated the very essence or nearly every religion, including many with assets that far exceed the Mormon religion.
The point which you seem to be missing is this article, is where is the line drawn between church and state, when tax advantages given to churches might be used in endeavors that are not directly church related. Trinity asserts that directly, or indirectly its accumulation of wealth allows it to provide a larger amount of support to the community.
What is also missed by many in these comments is that Trinity does not have $6 billion in cash, it has assets, much of which are either on paper or illiquid.
4
One of the last stops Christ made before his crucifixion was to take a whip to the Church. I suspect that it will be his first stop, with the same whip, when he returns.
22
@Merle Totally empathize with your sentiment, however I would not hold my breath waiting for a miracle of justice.
@Merle So, so true. What Trinity, Vatican and Mormons have in common is their pretension to be missionaries of Christ.
"Trinity has been able to do all this because it’s been a savvy manager of its resources. It is also, as a church, exempt from taxes.
But some wonder about the ethics of a religious institution being such a power player in the world of New York real estate."
"Some wonder"? Not me. They're a pack of thieves. The whole place is obviously run by Satan. So tax them to death!
8
This church has too much $$$; they should be helping the POOR.
9
The author forgot to mention that the Episcopal Church USA has been "banded", "punished" etc, by the world wide Anglican Church at it's last Lambeth Conference for taking a stand for LGBT! This severe and ignorant punishment has been initiated by the poor, actually very poor, Anglo African Church.....and yet, a large majority of Trinity's grants continue to support the African church while they (African Anglos) are "screwing" the USA Episcopal Church, at least on a literal sense.....Trinity has turned the other cheek to the largest body of Anglicans in the world!!! A church can't be more like Jesus than to turn the other cheek as proclaimed in the Sermon on the Mount! It's not all about money!
13
@Dolly Patterson
Unfortunately, homophobia continues to rule the sensibilities of most black African Christians, even amongst the most intelligent and best educated.
A family friend, whose family escaped Mugabe, and came to Australia, a devout Methodist, summed up prevailing attitudes:
'I'm African' she told me. 'So I'm against homosexuality.'
I didn't try to argue with her. It would have achieved nothing.
3
@Dolly Patterson
Perhaps The New York Times should investigate the Anglican Church in Africa.
The Anglican priests there wear the vestments of what's really a pretty civilized religion, but their beliefs are outmoded in the extreme. Much better for them to preach to the heterosexual men who continue to use 10-year-old girls for their pleasure than to spend time defaming quite ordinary gay people.
2
@B.
I read this stuff just out of general interest, but find it hilarious that coverage of the wealth of Trinity Church in NYC should devolve down to insisting that the Times investigate the Anglican Church in Africa because it holds negative views on the LGBT community. That would mean taking away staff from their DTB (Daily Trump Bashing) agenda, and we can't have any of that. Besides, many of these comments have already introduced Trump into the conversation, despite his being as far removed from Trinity Church as distance, occupation and general morality can make him. But TDS is alive and well at the Paper of Record and in the minds of its readers!
Interviewing Calvin Butts on the "bottom line" is most amusing. Butts mismanaged the churches financials for decades and Abyssinian claimed they were "cash strapped" yet held on to empty lots they could of sold off, and housing they mismanaged where they yearly made the worst landlord list. From a past DNA info article, "The Abyssinian Development Corporation has also drawn criticism from City Hall. In September, the city froze $3.1 million in contracts because the nonprofit hasn’t submitted tax filings in three years.
Last week, City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito publicly criticized ADC for selling the Pathmark building last year without notifying the community. She also said that none of the $39 million from the sale had been given to the city, which owned 49 percent of the property". How is Butt's not been fired? Then you have Harlem Congregations for Community Improvement, Inc. (HCCI) who also mismanages their properties and their CEO stole money and is now in jail. This is the tale of two cities of corrupt clergy, religious organizations not being fiscally responsible and accountable. Good luck getting Senator Benjamin, Assembly Member Inez Dickens, Rev Assembly Member Al Taylor to say anything about this in Harlem.
6
The article starts off with a cross between sour grapes and outright envy for a church that has exemplified 1 Timothy 6:17-21.
I know, the average NYT writer and editor - and reader - views our Christian faith with disdain if not outright hostility so I'm not surprised to see a not-so-faint call for church taxation thrown in there, too. :(
5
@Chris Watson -
R U sure this is the dispensation you were looking for?
"17; Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18; Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19; In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. 20; guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21; which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith."
Oh yeah - 22; Layeth thee up $6 Billion in real estate assets, even tho' thy Brethren layeth down homeless in thy streets.
@Chris Watson
It is not your Christian faith but your unChristian venality that so many of us deplore.
9k to replace a door? I get that this is NYC but jeeze
2
@mike
For nine-thousand dollars, you get a door that's larger and stronger than usual, which is what you need for a church door.
Just so you know, my back door, raw red oak with a little window on top and a couple of panels, cost over a thousand about a dozen years ago. Then it had to be hung and waterproofed, another two thousand. In New York City, you can't get a door that isn't hollow-core for less.
Why do New Yorkers stay? Because whenever we want, we can visit Trinity Church, for example, and stroll the graveyard and see the headstones of the people who built this city. We can go to Green-Wood and see the graves of same, along with Leonard Bernstein and others. The Met, the NYCB, Carnegie Hall, our Hudson River. Sometimes we drive to Red Hook and park at Fairway's just to see the sunset over the harbor. (And pick up a few vegetables.)
Trinity has been a good steward of money that was essentially given it hundreds of years ago.
I'm in favor of taxing religious institutions to the extent that they use pubic services like the police and fire department.
And when their campuses are essentially country clubs, like Word of Life up in Scroon Lake.
Small parishes, if you can call them that, are established, especially in recent years, sheerly to avoid taxes. So-called ministers and rabbis set up 12-person "congregations," sometimes made up of relatives, in their homes, so they don't have to pay property taxes. It's a scam.
4
@B.
The combination of wealth and taxes is like oil and water - it's always a scam - which can be added to the quote, originally from Benjamin Franklin and credited to Winston Churchill - 'the only thing certain in life is death and taxes'.....add scam to bring it up to date.
To name an avaricious real-estate company after one of the most sacred Mysteries of the church is truly an abomination.
To wit:
_ Whereas every other church, synagogue and mosque was built on the nickels and dimes of poor immigrants, Trinity got its land from an English land grant for 3 peppercorns a year rent.
In turn, England got the land from the Dutch when a British fleet sailed into NY harbor in 1664 and threatened to annihilate the Dutch colony unless it surrender. Nice violent way to get free land.
What must Jesus think?
_In the 19th century, its land on the west side housed 1000s of poor immigrants in substandard and disease-ridden slums. In fact, a 1906 NYT story reported that Trinity’s slums had the highest rate of tuberculosis in the city.
What must Jesus think?
_Around 1920, it evicted and made homeless these slum dwellers, demolishing their homes to make way for the office/factory buildings in Hudson Square there now.
What must Jesus think?
– Beginning in the 1980s, trying to cash in on the New Economy, Trinity then refused to renew the leases of these factories, putting 1000s of unemployed blue-collar workers on the unemployment lines.
What must Jesus think?
–Trinity had Occupy Wall Street activists, demonstrating for justice on one of its empty lots, arrested – including one of its own bishops,
What must Jesus think?
– Unlike other religious institutions, it has no soup kitchens or social relief programs in Manhattan.
What must Jesus think?
11
@Just a thought -
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully, as when they do it from religious conviction."
Pascal
2
What a biased, sensationalistic article. Trinity, which has long been known to have a bigger budget than the whole Episcopal Diocese of NY, is a very diverse congregation that gives generously to progressive organizations in the neighborhood, city, region, and world, funding educational research, housing fairness, racial justice, seminaries, anti sex trafficking, conflict resolution, immigrant protection, struggling dioceses, shelter for refugees; the list goes on and includes numerous small churches in the tristate area and across the globe.
No, I am not a parishioner.
29
@Artsfan
"Trinity, ... gives generously to progressive organizations in the neighborhood, city.”
Really? Tell us a few.
I’ve done research and could find little, if any, charity in its own parish or even the city.
PLEASE tell us specifically or else stop parroting Trinity's party line
In the 19th century, it did have several soup kitchens and shelters in the parish downtown. No longer. The land values are too high, so the poor get screwed while Trinity reaps real-estate profit.
In fact, all i could find currently is St. Margaret’s House on Fulton Street, low-income housing for the elderly Trinity established.
However, the money to support it comes not from Trinity’s vast coffers but from HUD - from us taxpayers - while Trinity operates tax free and claims to be doing a charitable work.
Trinity won’t even donate space for the local Community Board to have its meetings, but other religious institutions do.
Trinity even charges admission to us locals for Christmas concerts it runs for the public. Other churches do not charge.
What must Jesus think?
1
@Artsfan
A quick tally of Trinity’s “charity” scores less than $10 million dollars - most of it spent worldwide, and most of that money goes to Episcopalian/Anglican causes.
One hand washing the other.
Much less goes to the local community.
Charity begins at home, especially with Trinity, which has run roughshod here for over a 150 years. They take much and give paltry back.
More Trinity greed:
Trinity changed the Hudson Square zoning 7 years ago to allow itself to build a massive 40-story luxury residential tower on Sixth and Canal.
To get community board approval, it said it would build a school. Big deal, all the wealthy residents would demand a school for their kids anyway.
But Trinity is so avaricious that it would only supply the space. It refused to supply books, desks or computers. Instead it left it up to the Bd of Ed to use taxpayers’ dollars to pay for the supplies for their wealthy tenants.
How can you defend these bloodsuckers?
Would Jesus? I doubt it. He would do what he did to the pharisees in the temple = whip and chase them out.
3
What does the church contribute to the tax base from their portfolio? How much is tax exempt?
1
Well, it's a pretty church, and a historic one, and the Episcopalians do good works.
How about investigating some of these evangelical mega-churches with their private jet-planed TV pastors and their portfolios? No doubt in the billions too. But held tight by the pastor.
Drive around, and at least Episcopal churches don't befoul neighborhoods with glitzy architecture and mall-style parking lots.
23
I believe the religious part of the operation should remain tax exempt,but I would hope the real estate arm is being taxed as any other business would be.
Can the NYT follow up on this and let its readers know the full story and if all of the portfolio is tax exempt, then we need to ask the appropriate elected officials why that is the case.
35
@stan Fully agree! My thoughts and questions exactly. NYTimes, please follow up!
10
Behold the camel, as it leaps with ease through the eye of the needle.
9
@Dave Green These days, it's more a very well-fed elephant doing the leaping.
6
@Dave Green
Billy Graham faced the same challenge and also failed.
Trinity could give away every last dollar and then close its doors forever. That would not end poverty, sickness, racism or any other social ill. NYC alone spends billions on these issues every year.
15
@Lyn Smith
The poor will always be with us. Especially when public largesse makes it easier to be poor than at any time in history. And when declining child-mortality rates make it easier to keep your six or seven children.
5
Four miles to the north, General Theological Seminary, the only Episcopal Seminary in New York, teeters on the verge of bankruptcy.
9
@ancrene the downfall of Episcopal Seminaries has more to do with the apostasy of the modern Episcopal Church than with anything having to do with funding. It's wholesale embrace of Humanism and it's decision to turn Christ into a fairy tale or, worse, deny the Deity of Christ (e.g., Spong) over the adamant truth of the Bible has a great deal to do with state of the Church today. On the other hand, the Conservative, Bible-based schism of the 2K's has led to a flourishing ACNA. Truth has it's own blessing from God.
1
I assume most of the money will be used to help the poor, like Jesus would advise.
3
@William Doolittle. From what information is available, it's more the very, very upper middle class that's being helped here. Haven't seen a soup kitchen for the indigent at Trinity.
1
@William Doolittle
At any rate, the money isn't paying for a sleek jet for the pastor. Or a bigger, new one paid for by the pastor's encouraging sad-sack parishioners to contribute their dollars. Which they do.
3
@Pete in Downtown
Read the article, it clearly states they give out 35,000 meals per year
9
Is this what Jesus intended, for a Christian church to evolve into being a commercial real estate mogul? Prima facia, is seems fundamentally contradictory to any core religious mission and subject to a slew of conflicts of interest. It appears that a "prosperity gospel" has certainly taken hold at this multi-billion dollar institution.
2
OK, here's my issue with extending tax exempt status to church owned properties, beyond those that function solely for worship or fellowship. It's all well and good to say they use the money wisely to help others, but quite frankly, they are avoiding paying tax dollars. I don't get to choose where my tax dollars go except through the ballot box, and neither should any church. This doesn't mean they can't establish non-profit entities to manage their charitable actions, each to be evaluated according to law, but a blanket tax exemption is just wrong.
19
Between 1996 and 1998, I used to walk down the sidewalk on this block of Rector Street (between Broadway and Trinity Place) on my way to an evening 12 step meeting, located on Trinity Place. In this photograph of the cemetery, Rector is the street between the cemetery and the white building in the background. DeWitt Clinton's grave is very close to Alexander Hamilton's grave. Clinton was former mayor of New York City, and the sixth Governor of New York State. He ran for President of the United States in 1812 as a "Democratic Republican" (I found this information about Clinton's presidential run on Wikipedia). There are some significantly older grave markers there, as well. Please note: Public entry into the cemetery is not permitted.
1
@Easy Goer Public entry is totally permitted during the day. I think the gates close at 6 at night.
7
@Easy Goer
Easy Goer, you are entirely wrong.
I have walked many times through the cemetery. I didn't have to break down the gate to do so. It is open. And peopled with both New Yorkers and tourists.
6
Gave away $10 million? How pathetic. 1% return on their $6 billion is $60 million. Should be making at least 5 times that on current cash flow. Isn't a church a charitable organization? Where does the other $290 million go?
19
@Paul Good question! I'd like to hear or read that answer, too.
4
@Paul $110 million to refurbish the church and the rest to build a tall, glass tower.
1
I just wanted to point out that the full name of the church with the wrecked doors is Immanuel - First Spanish United Methodist Church.
2
why is the church not using this money build homeless shelters, schools, daycares?
14
@SPNJ They do have a day care. My son goes there because it was the only need-based financial aid for a child under 2 I could find.
22
The bigger the church, the less it should be trusted.
8
They need to look under the Church , who knows what might be found?
1
$6 billion tax free.
Must be nice
8
I'm not religious, but have to wonder 'what would Jesus think?'
6
@dmack5 From what we know, he (Jesus) was crucified for saying out loud what he thought. His sermon about the rich and the eye of a needle didn't go over so great.
4
Where is Joel Osteen when ya need him?
1
@Novak
Shellacking his coiffure.
1
Financially, they have nothing on LDS Inc.
8
Is there not an obvious solution here? This isn't the answer to a lot of the issues raised in the article, but might Trinity not put aside some funds to help these other churches and their broken doors? What is $9,000 to a church with $300 million in annual revenue? Sounds like they could easily both buy and repair the church in East Harlem, help Judson Memorial, and contribute to many other important neighborhood churches - and temples.
32
@Iva Kravitz precisely my thoughts. all those big bucks could fix many woes. i truly appreciate the work trinity has done and it's immense help and solace given during the trade center debacle. and, financially supporting beloved neighborhood churches would be so easy to do. i hope this will happen. nyc, despite all the corporate shenanigans and takeovers, still has beautiful and profound soul. keep it so. help thy neighbor....
8
Dear NYT,
What is the point of this finger pointing article with nothing to point to? This is marvelous and diverse church community that did a lot for the area post 9/11, which was not mentioned in the article. They do extensive work with the poor here and abroad and support a progressive worldview. Why doesn't Ms. Margolies attend a service to see for herself?
Many of the reverends are women. They are all terrific pastors. The Sunday sermons often ask challenging questions about our place in the community and in the world and how we can individually do more for a better future.
Yes, it is true that they are fortunate to be in New York City, lower Manhattan specifically, where the tide has floated all boats of property values for all land owners small and large. Why should they be embarrassed by their riches? Yes, they have been savvy how they manage their legacy. Is this a bad thing? However, they use their prosperity to further church's mission.
I find this to be a somewhat sensationalist headline. And the snarky remarks are a poor reflection on the NYT readership. I, for one, will always be grateful for their presence and work post-9/11 and the memorial fence that spontaneously evolved outside St. Paul's Chapel. It was a hopeful oasis during a difficult time for downtown. They are the little church that could. May God bless them.
94
@J.Q.P. Ah, the old excuse of "look at all the good the church provides." Are there no more hungry, sick and homeless people in NYC? Is it necessary to have a lot of imaginary gods to provide charity? The answer is NO. It's more down to a bunch of people, often old men, that want to tell you how to act in all aspects of your life. These religious organizations should be required to distribute at least 50% of their assets every year to charitable causes. And have them pay taxes on anything not directly going to charity.
27
@J.Q.P.
Ye$, that'$ quite a mi$$ion you got there
15
@J.Q.P.
You've obviously never read The New Testament. $6 billion? May god bless their bank accounts.
9
NYC must start charging the Church for taxes. Tax Exemption for these archaic Institutions must end.
48
@Behavior
I agree. Especially with the outsized voice religious institutions have within our government. We need to reinforce our secular state.
13
@Behavior Agree! The Constitution guarantees Freedom of Religion, not freedom of churches from taxation. One does not automatically mean the other. I am all for tax exemption of their charitable activities, and for those only if open to any and all in need, regardless of their faith.
14
Interesting that Prof. McCleary questions, "What is the fundamental economic issue going on that churches deserve tax exemption and can build up a lot of wealth?”. The same could be asked of her employer, Harvard, and its $36B endowment. Trinity, the Episcopal Church and other churches certainly are doing more social good thru essential housing, feeding and housing the needy among other social benefits.
16
@LR94556 What housing for the needy does Trinity provide, and if they do at all, how much of their vast fortune is spent on it?
3
@Pete in Downtown The answer is stated in the article on which you are commenting along with the 35,000 meals they provide annually.
@Pete in Downtown Why don't you look at Trinity's website. They do a lot, just because the NYT didn't mention their vast outreach doesn't mean they don't do it.
But where is the payoff for these churches to help people. People vs returns. Hmmmm If only their reward was somewhere more along their teachings.. Hello Heaven called. It wants it concept back. Jesus, Churches and Money changers.. Same as it ever was.
1
Give these religions tax deductions that are available to any charitable organization. The rest should be treated as income, with taxes due. This cult along with the Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and any other group who can maintain the facade of religion (like Scientology), but ordinary groups at a disadvantage when competing for properties. They contribute nothing to the cost of the public services they use. Meanwhile they can not offer proof that their cults are based on reality. Time for a change before Harry Potter fan groups start asking for special treatment too.
8
@DK
But Scientology doesn't even "maintain the facade of religion."
When I was going to school, people used to set up portable tables everywhere in New York City, including the subways, to sell L. Ron Hubbard's book "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health." There were enormous subway advertisements plastered in every subway car advertising Hubbard's sci-fi books and Dianetics.
The thing's a scam and a fraud, and it's run Mafia-style, blackmailing, harassing, and punishing those who try to investigate it -- or leave it.
It's not tax-exempt in Germany. It has gained tax-exempt status in countries afraid to fight it any longer.
Any religious organization not 300 or so years old is fraudulent, and in recent decades all these little churches have been established purely to avoid taxation.
1
The NYT should run an article on the universities and their real estate. Harvard and BU own a ton of commercial property in the Boston area, all tax free.
17
Jesus told us to feed the poor. I guess that Trinity Episcopal Church missed that command. So much for Christianity among the wealthy.
3
@Jeff Because feeding 35,000 people annually, housing the elderly and disabled, having social justice outreach on issues from prisoners, immigrants, human trafficking, racism, and funding other churches and social organizations at $10 million annually totally misses the mark of Christianity.
Why don't people read the article and check the church's website before ignorantly condemning them?
Looking forward to hearing AOC's thoughts about this billionaire.
Jesus was a billionaire (adjusted for inflation, of course), right? Something about camels and the eye of a needle comes to mind.
1
It is so unfair that billion dollar rich Churches such as these...and there are many, I'm sure...still don't pay taxes. Maybe they should donate some billions in excess to build Trump's wall...
1
Unfair advantage being tax free. The church and related property should remain tax sheltered but commercial real estate should be fair game.
I feel should there be any litigation in felony sex abuse linked to any church that facility should also lose it's tax exemption for a specified period, say 10 years. No more free rides or sweeping centuries of misconduct under the papal rugs.
5
The mentally ill on the subways. What of them, dear Trinity? I am a woman of faith and very involved in numerous ministries to the poor and marginalized. I do not have a problem with wealth but I have a huge problem with a church having six billion dollars in assets. There are thousands of mentally ill people in NYC that roam the streets and subways day and night. We can blame whoever for these problems, but here is a church that could build, open, employ and manage numerous agencies to help the mentally ill and marginalized. It also appears true that this church is a direct player in the destruction businesses and therefore lives. The NYT just ran an article about a New York bar, popular with writers, that will cease to be because of high rent. It outrageous that the church is complicit in this type of destruction. Trinity would do well to serve the poor, feed the hungry and open their doors to the homeless, many of whom are mentally ill. They appear to be money changers in the temple, the very ones that sent Jesus into a rage.
4
@Elena Rose
These assets are not liquid. They are real estate, and if you liquidate the real estate and give the money to the poor, you will still have poor people and no revenue to continue to help them.
5
Their portfolio returned $300 million last year, they gave away $10 million. And gave themselves a a big fat pat on the back. Well done Trinity. You're setting quite an example.
3
If a church invests for profit, let them be taxed.
16
I don't claim to be familiar with every word of the New Testament, or even with most of it, but somehow I recall that a $6 billion tax-exempt portfolio is not what Jesus had in mind.
7
I can understand why donations and spending on houses of worship and religious functions are tax exempt, but why commercial real estate development transactions?
6
Missing is what the church's annual spending is. It's a great multitude more than it gets in annual donations. Yes, the one time sell off resulted in a huge liquid portfolio rather than land holdings. But being good stewards of its resources is what has allowed Trinity to grow and spread the full Mission. Yes, it feeds the physically hungry (lunch is available every day) but it also nurtures the spiritually hungry, the sick, the sad, the displaced and the lonely. It's not a social service organization, it's a religion.
11
Sorry, but the Gospels are very clear. Whatsoever you do unto the least of these you do unto me. Where your heart is there is your treasure. For what does it profit a man (or woman) to gain the world but lose his (her) soul. Come, enter the kingdom, for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was sick and you visited me.” No one is off the hook just because they are a religion. The meals served are a drop in the bucket that they could easily fill by starting ministries to help the mentally ill. The need of the mentally ill in New York City are outrageous and in the face of every single person who rides the subway. Instead they are building castles in the sky that only the rich can enter. I do not know what kingdom or God they are serving or which version of Jesus they are serving but it doesn’t appear to be the one in the Bible. It appears they would do well with the likes of Joel Osteen.
5
@Elena Rose
"The need of the mentally ill in New York City are outrageous and in the face of every single person who rides the subway."
As a psychiatrist friend of mine once said, lots of disturbed behavior is learned. People lack self control, and then they won't keep a job, and then they get worse. They discover that shouting gives them power. That's true even in middle class and upper-class families.
Much better for parents to beget fewer children and do a good job with the one or two they have. And to delay child-bearing for when they are an employed, stable family who could spend time modeling good behavior for their children.
You'll find our schools will improve and, to a certain extent, so will our subways. You'd have a lot fewer violent episodes for people to dodge and to video, at any rate.
2
It is not all heavenly for us tenants of Trinity. We have had to start a litigation over some BAD FAITH in having us (City Winery) sign a new 5 year lease extension just months before the Disney sale. We invested millions of dollars in an expansion based on promises that were not kept. Amazing that they pretend to do the right thing, but simply are not Menches..
5
"The sale of air rights" - does that include Heaven above?
I'd expect the new tower to house low income or the homeless, not the uber rich who park their amassed wealth in luxury apartments that will inevitably also get property tax breaks while living part-time at most in their units.
Only $6 billion? No wonder there is a donation kiosk at the entrance of the church. I donated not for religious reasons, but because of the awesome lunch time, Christmas-time and Easter-time concerts - and the pleasant surroundings of cemetery and interesting graves and trees to enjoy my classic New York cart lunch.
9/11 provided the eeriest site and feeling for me there, to see the cemetery, church and an empty Broadway with nobody around covered by brownish dusty powder and papers after it all settled from the twin tower collapse - like snow but brownish, with the same quiet muffled sound after a snow fall. Even the deserted fruit cart on the corner with Wall St had that powdery ash perfectly covering the fruit like powdery snow would. Surreal sight, surreal feeling, surreal day.
Hopefully a lot more good than is apparent is being done with so much wealth. The beautiful church should certainly inspire it.
3
The largest landholder in NYC if I am not mistaken is Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan, who's name is on the deeds for all the property in town owned by the Catholic Church.
There is something valuable in the architecture of a church, and there is something valuable in that they are failing institutions of theological compulsion.
As the sum total of all science investigation over the last 500 years can be summed as: "Not one supernatural event has ever happened in the whole history of the universe, not once ever." it is a bit of tribute to human progress that attendance is waning. Do save the buildings and art though, we are not Philistines, demise is desecration.
10
@CK
"The largest landholder in NYC if I am not mistaken is Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan, who's name is on the deeds for all the property in town owned by the Catholic Churc”
You are mistaken.
The RC Church ranks around 10th.
And the RC Church paid money for that land, with money donated willingly by its poor immigrant parishoners – not like Trinity who got it for free from Queen Anne, who stole it from the Dutch under threat of annihilation of New Amsterdam.
1
Obviously, Trinity is an anomaly, not only in New York but anywhere. Obviously, a huge real estate portfolio is a strange bedfellow for a church.
But Trinity gets a lot done for the world. Episcopalians are notably bad at talking about their good works - they feel it is impolite. I am very pleased by Trinity's grantmaking, and the unique perspective that they bring to it. Yes, it should grow.
To those of you advocating for taxation, I think you should be careful what you wish for. House of worship of all faiths do a remarkable amount of social service work, which would vanish if churches paid taxes. Look at France for the example of the degraded social fabric that comes from religious intolerance and the uncomfortable mixing of church and state.
38
@Cousy
"But Trinity gets a lot done for the world.”
Please provide a few answers, starting first here in the USA. After all, charity begins at home.
2
@Just a thought Check out Trinity's website for your answer's. Just a thought.
Of course they should be taxed, they are a multi-billion dollar business.
And what will be done about it? Absolutely nothing.
26
Mid-20th C., Mueller Macaroni was owned for a while by NYU and acquired tax-exempt status because NYU had it. But the law was changed in response to unfair competition protests and I guess it became less profitable so NYU sold it.
I think the tax exemption for religious institutions leads to so much abuse and probably fraud that it should be eliminated. Let those of us who wish to support a religious institution do so without picking the pockets of those who don’t.
13
I may have missed it, but is Trinity Church's six billion dollar real estate holding also fully exempt from New York real estate tax, as pretty much all churches usually are? If yes, it's nothing short of a scandal, unless the church really puts its wealth to work for the community - and I don't mean the investment bankers on close-by Wall Street.
Unrelated to this specific situation, the real estate tax exemption for "Non-profits" needs a very close, hard look at. As I learned over the years, non-profit doesn't mean it's not mostly about money.
60
@Pete in Downtown no it is taxed
2
I thought only the building where the church was housed was tax exempt . Their other holdings should be taxed
2
@Lyn Smith I'd like to see some additional digging into this. While church buildings are almost exempt from real estate tax, I don't know if that's also true for church-owned commercial real estate. Whatever worship is going on in that glass tower, it's not to God or Jesus. What is the situation when it comes to commercial real estate holdings of churches in New York City? NYTimes, please investigate and report!
5
I love New York because people don’t waste their time on religion.
9
@Peter - You belong to the Church of the Worship of Money, whose prime tenet is a total lack of awareness of other faiths.
4
@CK Au contraire; agnostics and some atheists are all too aware of the many belief systems (aka "religions") that function efficiently as control mechanisms.
But hold: There is a vast gulf between the invidious systems like Calvinism, which peddle the obscene dictum that people are born with original sin!!! -- and the non-fanatic elements of Judaism that espouse the original positive commandments of Torah.
Nbody's perfect; there are terrible examples in each of the major religions. But basic morality contiinues to flow like an underground stream, even for the non-believer
2
"The bishop left his cabin
To help others in need
Turned his eyes up to the heavens
Said, "The poor are yours to feed"
9
"It is also, as a church, exempt from taxes." Read the headline then think this. We allow so many "businesses" to get away with tax avoidance. When are we all going to wake up to the fact that these "churches" and "religions" are just "businesses". This is the ultimate philanthropy scheme. We're supposed to let the ultra rich be that way because the money they make will "trickle down" into society via their businesses and philanthropy. This is the ultimate expression of that. This church should be giving away its money to the poor as fast as it can but instead it sits on billions? People freeze to death on the streets of New York. Tens of thousands without adequate food probably within blocks of this church. They built all that and no homeless shelter? Is there a soup kitchen? Jesus must be crying somewhere right? Well there isn't any Jesus, only "greedy holier than thous" spreading nothing. Nothing. I am an atheist after all so it all appears to be simply criminal to me. Why are these greedy "insufferable knowitalls" allowed to avoid taxes? I think we should rename this one to "the First Church of Rich White Greed". No God here.
37
Time for the free ride to end. Tax them, all of them.
52
Good thing there are no poor or homeless in NYC, else someone would question this storing up of wealth on Earth. and I'm sure the other developers are thrilled with the tax free advantages of such a Godly organization.
26
Another advantage Trinity Church holds over others is that it is entitled by royal charter to any whale that washes up on the Hudson shore.
19
hehe
1
This wealth is the unfortunate result of good money management and no need settle claims of sexual misconduct.
8
@Richard Winchester
There's a lot less sexual misconduct among priests who marry. The Greek Orthodox Church, for example, allows marriage unless a man is aiming to be a bishop. Protestant denominations allow their ministers and bishops to marry.
This business of Catholic celibacy for all is what drives pedophilia.
And, of course, proximity to choir boys and to little girls at the confessional is enticing to a certain type of character.
Exempting churches from taxes is insane and unconstitutional.
17
Back when I was filling out the tax returns for a non-profit membership organization, we had to file a 990T for unrelated business income. Taxes were due on unrelated business income, though enough magazine production costs could be allocated to the ads to show no taxable income.
Don't churches have to play by the same rules?
14
Some years ago the back wall fell off of St. James’s Episcopal Church in Great Barrington, Massachusetts. Around the same time the congregation merged with a smaller struggling Episcopal parish nearby and called itself Grace Church. After the wall fell off, instead of using insurance money to rebuild, the parish sold the property and now rents inexpensive space for a chapel and an office for the rector in a small office building and holds Sunday services in a function room owned by a brewery (very Episcopal, that). The savings in the operating budget, party funded by an endowment, are used to support a community garden operated by youth in the community and feeds many low-income people during the summer and fall. The rest of the savings support many other local causes that support migrant workers, immigrants, the homeless, etc. It’s a small, but vibrant church in the truest sense of the word (meaning assembly, not a building).
The Trinity situation is and always has been unique and does not represent the true character of the Episcopal Church that I know. Sadly, the Grace Church situation, while perhaps not unique, is unusual. But I think it’s what Jesus had in mind.
21
Well, at least it's comforting to know that they'll be able to pay the annual rent - established with the original grant from King William III - of one peppercorn.
22
"Non-profits" like these exemplify Mark Twain's dictum: "When someone says it's not about the money, it's really about the money".
108
@PMN I thought Peter Finley Dunne's "Mr. Dooley" said that. Whoever said it, it's true.
5
@PMN
"Anyone can get evil people to do evil. To get good people to do evil, you need religion."
Steven Weinberg
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is call Insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion."
Robert Pirsig
1
Hooray for the smaller churches struggling to provide services. It seems the big churches could be doing more- each have a partner church perhaps?
21
"But now it finds itself with a newly diversified portfolio worth $6 billion, according to the current rector, the Rev. Dr. William Lupfer."
Church of the Almighty Dollar?
How much of that $6 Billion portfolio will be spent helping the poor.
60
@JM The Catholic Church in NYC has long been in the real estate business.
3
Trinity's bloated wealth is an act of immorality. Laws should be passed mandating that all Church revenues that do not directly contribute to the well being and aid of those Christ called the least of us be taxed as ordinary income. And that includes trendy Trinity and southern mega churches
21
Zero. Zero is a number! :)
6
Long overdue discussion about non-profits (religious organizations and service organizations) that for years/decades benefited from tax exemption, from community support etc - and then sell off real estate to luxury and commercial real estate developers.
The non-profits are enabling the development of new buildings that benefit rich people - destroy neighborhoods, wreck housing for regular people and destroy historic buildings that cannot be replaced.
Although taxpayers have paid for the status of the non-profits, the taxpayers get no say in whether neighborhoods should be destroyed to benefit luxury real estate. Unfair and unethical.
Perhaps the NY Times can followup and catalogue the big list of non-profits that, sadly, have sold off to luxury real estate, including the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, Columbia University, Union Theological Seminary, Jewish Guild for the Blind and many more.
70
At the end of the 1800s, the Episcopal church was the largest slum landlord in NYC. In Germany, tax dollars help maintain some of the most famous landmark churches because of their cultural and tourism values. Wonder if that'd fly here? After all, we currently funnel tax dollars to church schools.
3
If you have $6 Billion, you are not a church! You are a company which should be taxed. It is unfair to all private developers because the Church can undercut them.
123
@Christopher More importantly, it is unfair and an affront to all taxpayers, since the various levels of government must provide services to these wealthy non- taxpayers..
47
@Christopher. Maybe AOC can work on this. Its outrageous that they aren't paying taxes. Imagine how many more like this...so wrong. Especially since many now overtly influence politicians
14
It would be interesting to know what this church pays its "executives", er...ministers.
10