If, as appears to be the case, white and Asian students take prep courses to pass the admission tests, then why not subsidize black and Latino students' prep courses fees so they can take the tests with a chance of passing. It's that which is discriminating, not the test.
22
Merit based, not race based. Always a good thing.
40
One of the most racist proposals of DeBlasio’s that he’s had yet. How about improving elementary and middle schools? Start at the bottom and work up. If he really cared he would work on those schools first, but of course he wouldn’t see results in his term and wouldn’t be able to take credit for their success like he does with all of Bloomberg’s initiatives.
I won’t forget this or the many other horrible ideas he’s had. I’m looking forward to the demise of his political career as this term plays out.
31
Everything Mayor De Blasio and his appointees have tried when it comes to education has been a complete failure. They do things for political reasons without a modicum of thought or care. They should be kept as far away from policy and planning in this field as possible. Whatever they do will end up making absolutely no one happy except the entrenched bureaucrats who revel in the spread of mediocrity. Let's all wait until we have a competent mayor and reasonably intelligent appointees before undertaking any policy changes.
29
I have to ask myself if the Mayor and his public education team ever consulted with Jerry D. Weast [Institute for Educational Leadership], or the the folks at N. I. S. T [Dept. of Commerce] Baldrige Excellence Framework (Education).
Not to mention the professional heirs of Ronald Edmonds, a former senior assistant for instruction with New York City Public Schools (1977–1980), who famously wrote, “We can, whenever and wherever we choose, successfully teach all children whose schooling is of interest to us. We already know more than we need to do that. Whether or not we do it must finally depend on how we feel about the fact that we haven’t so far.”
6
Stuyvesant Class of 1982. The narrow focus on a few schools and who attends rather than the educational opportunities offered to all New York City students is misguided. When I attended, the difference was the students who wanted to be there and achieve, not the building on East 15 Street, or the teachers, even they said it was us, the students, who made the school what it is. Why are the schools so desirable, is it only the name or is it the education they offer? If it is the education, then figure out how it can be available to every student who wants it, not only those who are lucky enough to score high enough on the test.
8
The reason these schools are elite is the quality of the students and the parents of these students who stress the importance of academic achievement. Once you dilute the student body by allowing less capable students in, these schools will no longer be able to teach to that elite level. How about instead of opening up affirmative action spots we focus on prep for all kids at younger ages? Instead of dumbing down the schools why not focus on raising people up to their standards?
45
I worked as the NYS Department of Labor Jobs Counselor at Brooklyn Tech in 1978. While my experience was fairly short-termed, my observation was that at the time the student body there was heavily African-American. I myself had attended Abraham Lincoln High School in Brooklyn and graduated in 1964, and my observation was that the students at Brooklyn Tech were ill-served by a school that was in appalling decline. My high school experience was extraordinary academically. Although we were extremely overcrowded, academics at Lincoln flourished and could rival the best of the best today. On the other hand, Brooklyn Tech, during my time there, was chaotic, undisciplined, and populated by indifferent teaching staff, to a large degree, who left many students adrift and lost in a system that didn't care about them. I managed to form close relationships with many of the students and teachers - what I saw was not encouraging. The school had opened its door, unwillingly, I think, to students it didn't want and didn't serve adequately. I hope this new plan will not be more of same. I met wonderful, bright kids who were adrift at Brooklyn Tech and who were not receiving the education or encouragement they would need to succeed in a racist and insanely competitive world beyond high school.
1
Mayor de Blasio and Chancellor Carranza, if you want more African Americans and Latinos into the specialized high schools, may be you both should emphasized to black and Latino youth on the importance of taking their academic work seriously. In addition, their parents need to emphasize the importance of academic success to their children, and that sacrifice of time is needed to prepare for the exam (and overall achievement in the classroom). Asian families emphasize to their children that academic achievement is paramount. And the parents will sacrifice time and money for their children to take test prep courses or buy materials for them to pass the specialized high school exam.
33
@Eric: this is pure racial mythology. And i'm being nice in not using stronger words.
As i've pointed out in other postings, there are thousands, even tens of thousands, of Black and Hispanic middle schoolers every year who are academically oriented and achieve the highest levels in statewide tests. Yet only a tiny proportion of them are getting into the "testing" schools.
you are also making gross generalizations about the Asian community, which is not a single undifferentiated entity. I'm wondering if, in fact, there is a class differentiation on this: middle class Asian parents can pay for test prep much more easily than poor Asian parents. I haven't seen stats, but i am curious.
Am underlying current in this debate is "Blacks and Hispanics don't try as hard." False.
7
This is a culture war pandering to the electorate. The best of the best should be reserved for the best otherwise close the doors to elite High Schools
The student body doesn’t reflect income. It simply judged on tear score. You want in ? Study and achieve.
I’m a New York Puerto Rican and I say to all be all in achieve.
Bronx Science was the best thing to happen to me in my younger days but I earned it. It was not the result of doors being opened for me.
You want it , do it and stop making excuses ( or blaming Asians ).
44
By focusing this article on a handful of alumni, it makes it appear that they are split on this issue. Let’s see some data. My bet is that the vast majority of alumni and students oppose DiBlasio’s plan, which I am guessing is also true of anyone who has first-hand knowledge of how the schools work and are successful. Facts, please.
31
What nobody talks about is that 25 years ago the specialized high schools did include a higher percentage of black and Latino or Hispanic students. Tech in the 80s and 90s was overwhelmingly black. What changed? There used to be tracking in primary and middle schools. Grades were divided into performance classes and talented kids of any color got more challenging work that prepared them for the SHSAT. Who took that away? Progressive educational groups who thought it was unfair. Bring streaming back. It's the fair way to give gifted students more preparation. I'm a teacher. I feel bad for my talented, hard working kids when I have to slow down to repeat a concept four times. Differentiation in teaching is a myth. One person cannot reach five lessons at once. Streaming was ended on the premise that smart kids will help the other kids learn. Hmmm. Sometimes, but not anything to be counted on full time. Finally, I want to add that in NYC racial politics is different from the rest of the country. The majority of students of color here are not (necessarily) from families experiencing the multigenerational trauma of slavery or Jim Crow, as one interviewee asserts. They are immigrants from Africa, Mexico, DR. They're not descendants of northern migration by African Americans from the south. They don't necessarily have more historical trauma than families from Asia traumatized by Mao. Finally, these schools educate at most 5 percent of NYC. Focus on the 90 please.
55
Turning over society to a group that doesn’t get married often, has kids out wedlock to the tune of 75% is a recipe for disaster. Getting into a school isn’t a guarantee of success. In fact there have been stories of black students who have done well at high school but poorly on SATs, struggling at college. Boston Globe did a follow up on the Boston public school valedictorians over the last ten years. Many dropped out of college.
A test is simple & fair. It’s actually the most objective way possible to admit a student.
29
Perhaps a comprehensive application process like boarding schools have is in order. Elite NYC schools could have admissions committees, and criteria for entry would be broadly based on classes, grades, sports, arts, civic volunteer work, interviews, personal essays and letters of recommendation...and perhaps they could take the SSAT that kids take to get into boarding school. Make the application process just like the ones at Exeter, Putney and Westminster, there, then, you'll see incredible diversification. Best of all, every student gets 100% free tuition.
3
In India, they have been trying the kind of proposal that DeBlasio/Carranza want to have. The quota system doesn't work. It is now more than 40 years old in India, where even Govt posts are subject to his quote system (mostly done to get the block vote of those that fall under this category -- now has become a farce such that 90% of the Indian populace would soon fall under the "eligible" quotas soon if the Hindu Nationalist BJP has its way -- a great way to generate votes!).
I am all for diversity but the real problem is the public schools. If the prep classes are the villains that provide asymmetric advantage, make them free for everyone. Otherwise there will no good schools left in NYC and the whole system will languish in mediocrity.
17
I've seen a number of articles on this topic and I have yet to see one black/Hispanic family quoted as saying that their child spent significant time on practice tests, or attended a free test prep course, or even bought a $20 test prep workbook. If they made the effort and still couldn't compete with these supposed "rich" immigrants, then you might have a point. Until then, get to work.
58
The biggest issue for me (as the parent of a child currently in the NYC public school system) is that many of the “non specialized” high schools are not very good schools. Rather than playing with methods to determine which kids win the lottery for a good school, there should be efforts made to provide great schools to more students. Same goes for middle schools, by the way. Scarcity of strong schools is the issue, not just the integration/segregation problem.
28
even if the shsat was removed and the specialized high schools changed, the aim of integrating the city's public schools would be practically unchanged. whatever one's opinion of this issue is, there are many segregated elementary, middle and high schools all over the city and this is the real issue that is being ignored.
9
Our mayor and his chancellor is assuming that the racial percentages of each middle school is static. If the plan does get passed, parents of high performing kids will just have their kids attend low performing schools. There, these kids will still have access to support systems (such as after school tutoring, extracurricular activities, etc). In three years, these kids will easily be in the top percentages of their respective middle school and be eligible for specialized high schools. In fact, it will even be easier for these kids since they don't have take the SHSAT and they are competing in class against the same lower performing students who still will not get any help to push their grades up.
Guess what? The percentages of African Americans and Hispanics will go up for a few years but once people learns how to game the system, diversity in these high schools will go down once more. By then our mayor will be long gone and this plan will prove to be ineffective in diversifying these high schools.
If this mayor and his chancellor really wants to achieve diversity, they will invest more resources and create more opportunities in lower performing neighborhoods from kindergarten and elementary school up. Only through long term investment in our children that we can get lasting results. This plan is short sighted and is meant for the mayor's immediate political gain.
22
From what I have seen and heard as a parent of a Stuyvesant High School student, the SHSAT is a baseline test of competence in math and reading. Getting into Stuyvesant was the relatively easy part; getting through the accelerated, advanced curriculum at Stuyvesant with decent grades will be a tougher road.
If a student cannot pass a basic competence test, how can that student handle the rigorous coursework at Stuyvesant? Either those students will flunk out of Stuyvesant or Stuyvesant will be forced to lower its standards. Neither outcome would appear desirable.
The Mayor should not try to take shortcuts that do not solve the underlying problems. He should work on improving the quality of the middle schools across NYC and helping students, especially underrepresented minorities such as Blacks and Hispanics, to prepare adequately for the SHSAT so that they learn the material and pass the test. Following this more comprehensive approach would provide the best foundation for their future academic success and preserve the rigor of the specialized high schools.
47
NYC's plan is not analogous to the University of Texas's "top 6%" plan, which was implemented to replace a race conscious affirmative action admissions policy;. When the plan first went into effect, (admitting the top ten percent of high school graduating classes), the proportion of African-American students at the University of Texas plummeted to 4% of the student body today (from 14.5% in 1994). Why? Many of African-American did not have the preparation or resources or support to attend the flagship university. While the plans are similar, they diverge in important ways. First, many more students of color were admitted to UT prior to the percentage plan than are admitted to NYC's top high schools. Second, the costs of attending public high school are far less onerous than of attending a state university in an expensive city like Austin. Third, even if some middle schools are not entirely successful in preparing students for the city's academically challenging high schools, students who are behind can be provided with targeted opportunities to catch up. At age 12 and 13 they are not too far behind. By college, however, it is very difficult for students to catch up. Fourth, some students in the top 7% will choose to go elsewhere, so the test (or even a holistic admission process that takes many factors into consideration) can remain as an admission mechanism. About 25% of UT's student body are admitted holistically, rather than automatically.
7
@Living in Texas
Agreed. I will also point out that you cannot compare an elite high school with a competitive, but by no means elite university. UT Austin has over 50,000 undergraduates, making it one of the largest in the nation. Within UT Austin is an elite program called Plan II, which would be a closer (but still poor) comparator with Stuy.
2
@PJ All sorts of excuses are being made for why the UT plan is "different." Let's recall that the SHSAT is for 8 schools, not one, and the total student population of those 8 schools is on the order of magnitude of 20,000, or possibly more. So while not as large as UT, it is large enough that you can't make that excuse.
Within the new pool, determined by GPA, class rank, and achievement on statewide tests, presumably students would still name their #s 1, 2, and 3 choices, and the schools would still pick. So the best within the group would still go to Stuy. Similar to whatever elite programs exist in UT.
1
it would have been helpful to see the indivduals' parents educational backgrounds. The vast majority of East Asian and South Asian immigrants arrive here with at least a college degree ! They are economic migrants, extremely privileged compared to forced migrants (enslaved Africans and most refugees today)!
3
New selective admissions high schools should be created in predominantly Black and Hispanic communities.
Eligibility for admissions to the these new schools should be limited to their surrounding neighbourhoods.
Admitting students with lower qualifications to the current special high school will produce some Black and Hispanic students whose self-confidence will be damaged by finding themselves in the lower halves of their classes.
It will also lead to endless lawsuits.
9
@scott ochiltree Actually, this was how it was at least in the 80s and early 90s when I was going through the system, only that there was not a separate school for top performers, only separate classrooms. I think this policy was called tracking. I distinctly remember in P.S. 100, the sections of each grade were divided into "Top, Middle and Bottom", that is *literally* what they were called, not even deigning to use euphemisms in the early grades like "Blue Birds, Ladybugs, and Cuddly Bears." I came to this country in 1983 and was placed in bottom for 1st, 2nd and 3rd. grades where I got the extra help i needed, likely particularly in English, then was placed in Top for 4th, 5th and 6th. I had the opportunity to test into and attend Mark Twain JHS and eventually the Bronx High School of Science, a competitive College and Graduate School. I am a tracking success story you can say. It is interesting that there were proportionally more "under represented" minorities in the Specialized High Schools back when tracking was in vogue that there is now. Perhaps what you propose is one way to bring fairness in education to all, without resorting to cheap racially antagonizing gimmicks.
19
If the rich kid can afford going to a good private school, why can't the good student based on either merits & tests go to good public school?
7
Are the basketball powers also now required to have 2-3 of their starters be 5'6 Asian players?? They have to go somewhere to excel
26
This is surprising, people are placing too much emphasis on high school. Parents are too involved in trying to control their children's future. I took the test and got into Brooklyn Tech, I didn't know the test was something to study for - let alone that an entire test prep industry existed around it. I guess at that young age I assumed it was an aptitude test of sorts, probably my mind was on other things. My parents had no interest or control over what school I would go to or what tests I was taking and that was just fine by me. Even though I got into Bklyn Tech I didn't go, I didn't know anyone there and besides it was just high school. I wasn't obsessively planning my life and career or having things managed by controlling parents. Thankfully. I went to a good SUNY, took the classes that interested me, got good grades (because the classes interested me), worked and paid my own way. Things worked out just fine. I went to Yale and now I'm a public interest lawyer. No one cares where I went to school, it's about the work, no one cares about high school or college. All this to say these high schools are not that important. Where you go to high school is much less important than what you do afterwards especially less important than the choices you make for yourself. Teach kids how to be resilient and independent, make the schools insignificant.
9
I am an alumna of one of New York City's specialized high schools- the former Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School of Music & Art. In my day, admission to "M&A" involved an audition on one's instrument if a music student, a test of the student's sense of pitch and rhythm and review of the academic record. Art students were evaluated by a portfolio of their work and academic considerations. M&A students were expected to maintain a high standard in both the arts and academics. Assistance was available to academically struggling students but if if they didn't improve they were removed from Music & Art and transferred to their "zoned" neighborhood high school. I am opposed to eliminating the entrance exams. Academic performance varies widely among the city's school districts.Eliminating the entrance exams will not level the "playing field" for the sake of integration. It will either lower standards, which will serve no one, or result in many of the kids from lower performing middle schools experiencing the humiliation of failure. The way to achieve much needed integration and fairness of opportunity is to make sure that students in poorer neighborhoods have the same academic enrichment, exposure and support that those of more affluent communities have. Identify the brightest, most talented in pre-k and nurture their learning through 8th grade to ensure they have mastered the skills to pass the entrance exam.
18
There is an implicit assumption in many of these comments that the proportion of a group in the overall population is somehow related to their outcomes in any area. Exactly what is meant by over- and under-representation? Is there a rationale for assuming the normality (other than the normal curve) for such outcomes.
No one mentions that sports teams should somehow reflect the overall national population. Why should their be an equal number of males and females in the performing or visual arts, in any specific academic discipline, in any given profession.
We live in a society in which there are family, group and personal priorities and choices. Income, culture and social norms and expectation are involved as well. Many people do very well in life who have not attended "elite" high schools and universities.
Perhaps the problem is the reflected glory of acceptance to these schools and graduation from them. All groups want their share of glory, perhaps to give parents bragging rights.
After five years in office, the Mayor can do no better than to propose a race based system to allocate places. If there is a bias that favours students whose parents can provide tutors, even at significant family sacrifice, perhaps a better approach would be to offer publicly provided tutoring.
16
It is nice to see a politician devote so much attention to the skin color of the students at a couple of schools rather than trying to improve the quality of education delivered to the approximately 1.1 million other students in NYC-run K-12 schools.
40
Quality of education K-8, in the years leading up to when kids take the SHSAT, is everything. If daily instruction is mediocre or worse, even a top student from that elementry or middle school probably won't have the educational foundation they need to do well in test prep and/or ace the SHSAT. So big part of a sensible fix would be to raise the caliber and quality of education K-8. Then all kids have the skills they need to level the test taking field at equal shot at the SHSAT.
Issue of test prep access also spins a lot of different ways. There is a lot of free test prep available all over the city (including at most cultural institutions). But kids have to have an adult in their life who can tell them about the free test prep and help them gain access to programs. And a lot of kids from all kinds of neighborhoods/races/families can't afford subway fare to attend, or they have to be home to care for younger siblings, or they have to work to help support thier family.
But most kids go to school every day K-8. If we just made sure all had high quality instruction for the 30 hours a week they were in school, they would all be empowered to compete equally when they take the SHSAT.
13
I hope this goes as well for de Blasio as his effort to get rid of the carriage horses in Central Park....I think it is equally misguided.
I am in the minority, I am a white graduate of Stuyvesant, class of 1983, from the good old days in the terrible old building, which Frank McCourt described to us in his writing class as having "babyshit yellow" walls.
John Liu has me beat, I only spent 3.5 hours per day commuting to Stuyvesant from Staten Island, along with many of my friends.
Stuyvesant was about 70% Chinese back then as well, the number has not changed for 40 years.
But I also remember many black friends, Lisa Allen and Lisa Bryant, Jon Shepard, who gave me the cassette tape that I still have, titled Jazz is....This! Craig Morancie, Rod King, James Spencer...I hope they are all doing great. If they were only 10%, they sure were a Good 10%. I remember the black security guard at the New York Public Library, my first job, being Astonished and Delighted when he searched my backpack and found Nubian magazine, one of the student publications.
Getting into Stuyvesant definitely Did make my life. And I am sure it does for many.
Keep The Test. The test itself is a meritocracy. It gives a massive boost to a lot of poor immigrants, and others. It is a fair advantage, not an unfair one, if Chinese have a prep culture for it. Anyone could!
Provide optional test prep for All junior high school students if you want to try to level the playing field.
21
@Tim S:
maybe you misunderstand the current percentage of Blacks in Stuyvesant. it is no longer 10%. In the most recent admissions class, it was 10. That's right, 902 offers of admission, 10 to blacks.
Given how much the African-Americans added to your class and your Stuy experience, don't you think this is a problem?
Do you really think it is the fault of the Black middle schoolers? do you really think there are so few African-Americans in NYC who would thrive at Stuy?
1
@Tim S:
i think you might not understand the current situation at Stuy and the other schools. Stuy is the most extreme.
The number of Black students at Stuy, in the most recent admissions class, is not 10%. it is 10. 10 Black students, out of over 900 admits.
Do you really think that there are only 10 black middle schoolers in NYC who deserve to attend Stuy, and can make it there?
Further, having this "diversity-challenged" (for lack of a better word) a school also hurts all the other students. Apparently you benefited immensely from going to school with many Black classmates. don't you think current Stuy students would benefit as well?
1
It’s not about “deserve”. It is a merit based test.
6
"the Asian-American community by and large has a lot of privilege that the black and Latinx community does not"
What exactly constitutes this privilege? When you begin honestly discussing this question is when you can begin honestly discussing solutions to the problem of integration.
18
In ancient days, Science and Stuyvesant had largely Jewish student bodies. I don't know when the tilt to majority Asian-American occurred, but I do not recall any public outcry.
There are Black and Hispanic students at the specialized schools. You pass the test --> you get in.
19
Ms. Rahman writes, “But one thing I can’t accept is when they say things like, ‘Our kids have worked hard. We deserve this.’ The unspoken thing is that other kids in other families don’t deserve this.”
As an Asian American it is hard not to apologize for success. We as minorities are careful to advocate fairness, to avoid appearing greedy. But unless we speak up and speak out, we will be asked to give when the white majority will not. This must not be a zero sum game. The question isn't whether every kid "deserves" to be at Stuy but why every kid doesn't get what they deserve. Every child deserves opportunities and resources that will allow them to grow and learn to the best of their ability. Different kids need different things. Places like Stuy are wonderful for the resources they have available, but they only fit a certain subset of kids well. And the kids that fit well are the kids who deserve to be there. But we need excellent schools that fit different kinds of kids. I am an Asian American Hunter alum. My son applied to HS this year.Yes, he took the SHSAT but I think that the current specialized schools would be a terrible fit for him. He is a smart kid but not the kind of student that would thrive at school like Stuy. We had trouble finding appealing schools to rank because so many places seem so poor in resources. He, and every other child, deserves an excellent school for the kind of student he is. Diluting places like Stuy does not get children what they deserve.
23
In the Soviet days, the Russians had a special entrance exam for Jews applying to universities to lower the number of candidates. How is this any different?
9
only De Blasio could come up with such
an absurd plan.these Asian kids work
incredibly hard to get into these elite
schools and then have to sit by and
watch while unqualified students get
in because and only because that are
minorities. this so called plan does no
one any good and only creates more
unnecessary racial animus in New York.
22
The De Blasio / Carranza plan for the 8 testing schools is very similar to the current admissions plan for the University of Texas. Without going into all the details, the top 6% of graduates of high schools in Texas get to go to UT Austin, the flagship campus. I haven't noticed that the school has fallen apart.
The response to the DeB / Carranza plan in NYC is a little shocking, and leads me to believe that NYC is not as liberal and civil rights minded as we like to believe.
The simple facts:
-- Blacks and Hispanics are woefully under-represented in the 8 testing schools, especially Stuy and Bx Science. The problem is getting worse.
-- There are thousands hard working Black and Hispanic middle schoolers who are not getting in and maybe not even taking the tests. These are smart, highly proficient students. The data is there for all to see. These students will do just fine at the testing schools, as they did before the "test prep" fanaticism changed the ethnic diversity at these schools.
-- Changing the admissions criteria will not "destroy" these schools; in fact, it will probably make them stronger.
-- These schools are among the few in the country that rely solely on one test; in fact, they might be the ONLY schools in the country that do that. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, SUNY, U Cal, Exeter, Andover all look at diverse critieria.
-- Success at the SHSAT test does not indicate "hard work". Success in long term schooling (GPA) indicates hard work.
2
@bruce bernstein The facts you are missing is that the SHS were diverse from the 1970s to the 1990s. Brooklyn Tech had over 50% Black and Hispanic students. This was the case when I went and that was what treasured about the school. I escaped an almost all-white Catholic school for diversity. I am anguished to find the sad reality of today's racial mix.
While the test has been a constant through the decades, the local schools from which my Black and Hispanic classmates came from lost their "tracking" programs for high achieving students. They also lost G&T programs in those districts. Today there are no G&T programs in the Bronx.
You also find that the investment and management of K-8 education has been woefully ineffective. DeBlasio's failed $780MM Renewal Program speaks to his ineptitude.
So if you are a scientist, a condition existed previously with a constant that hasn't changed. When the condition changed, do you investigate what has stayed the same or what has changed?
11
@bruce bernstein
Let me explain in musical terms. Say the key to success is playing piano and everyone learns to play in Middle School for piano in order to audition for Conservatory.
All middle school piano schools want their kids to succeed and promote them unashamedly. The conservatory knowing this stages s big high stakes audition because they want the most talented and hardworking pianists who can deliver under pressure.
A few children are naturally gifted. Yet others are lucky to have parents who will pay for private lessons (test prep). The test prep helps but requires intense work above and beyond what you learn at school. It costs the same as owning an IPhone for one year and paying for a data plan.
On the day of the result it emerges that the naturally gifted and privately trained kids do best and others feel it is unfair.
Should we dispense with the audition or make piano lessons available to those who are willing to work hard but can not afford it?
8
@Father Of Two: I am aware of the history full well, and well aware that BT used to be majority Black and Hispanic.
SOME of what you are proposing about G&T programs could be true, and be a cause. But it seems that the main cause is the fanaticism about test prep. this is an even more important factor that has changed.
I have shown, in other posts, that there are THOUSANDS of Black and Hispanic middle schoolers in NYC who are proficient and excellent students, and will do very well in Stuy, Science, and Brooklyn Tech. Just as the previous generations did.
there is simply no need to base everything on a single test, which we know can be "gamed" through test prep. If test prep doesn't work, why are all the high income parents having their kids do it?
the De Blasio / Carranza plan works in Texas. It will not destroy these schools, it will make them stronger. If you are really "anguished" over the current situation, then let's end it. let's get a good number of the many thousands of deserving Black and Hispanic middle schoolers into these schools.
10 Blacks in a Stuyvesant class of 900+? As a city, we should be ashamed. this does not reflect talent or "merit." it reflects a fundamental failure.
3
Admission to these schools (I graduated from Bronx Science in 1967) is one of the few area of American life, aside from sports, where merit rather than politics, patronage and bigotry still counts. Everyone takes the same exam, and the computer grading doesn't know your ethnicity. Fairness, a radical idea.
Let's keep it that way.
23
@Jonathan Katz : So maintaining a top 7% in GPA in Middle School is not "merit". But paying for a "test prep" course that is proven to raise your test grade substantially, that is "merit."
5
@bruce bernstein
Dont you get it. The top 7% is across schools with vast differences in academic levels. Treating them as comparable is doing a disservice to everybody including the students who cannot cope at these schools. The test is objective and color blind. It selects the best of the best across ethnicity and class. Why do you want to destroy the last remaining meritocracy in NYC education?
12
@Pantagruel: you haven't looked into the De Blasio / Carranza plan. in addition to Top 7% on the school, they have to be Top 25% among all students in their grades.
these students will "cope" just fine. Just as they do in Texas, at U Texas Austin, which has a very similar plan.
the test might be "color blind", but it is not objective. Otherwise, test prep would not work. Why is there such an arms race on test prep? Because it skews the results.
there are plenty of "meritocracies' in NYC education. I don't know why you feel this way. Are you a Stuy alum, or parent?
1
Intervening at just the high school level is a disservice to everyone. The city needs magnet schools in each and every district that start at pre-k. They should create these schools starting with the lowest performing districts and work up from there. Grow the pie - don’t force everyone to fight over a slice. In the future maybe the city could have multiple schools just like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science. Choose education over redistribution.
9
@Jeff it's not "either / or". What you say is true, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse not to correct the fundamental injustice of how seats in the 8 "testing" schools are allocated.
1
@Jeff
Finally, someone talking at least a wee bit of sense.
1
Most my friends went to specialized high schools and got into great college and are doing well professionally, their parents were cooks and seamstresses; all they did was buying a Barron textbooks and studied themselves and their parents spoke few English. The key is they all have both parents around and as kids seeing their parents working so hard, they upped their game to make their parents proud. Last time I read, 50% of African American kids are without a father in their home, don't you think this is the elephant in the room ?
27
@D actually 72% of Blacks are born out of wedlock...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure
8
I think DeBlasio's plan stinks. We have a diverse group of immigrants who arrive in our city from Asia. They are hard working and fight hard for the future of their children. They "game" the high school entrance exam by investing heavily in test-prep, because that is what you do when you are a hard working immigrant fighting for your children's future. And they are succeeding. Instead of knocking them down, we should be applauding them. And if we are jealous of their success, then we should be emulating them.
Also, why do we need to implement such an ideological plan? Why can't we have a diversity of schools? So maybe some of the best school could adopt a new admission criteria that would lead to a more inclusive student body, while others would maintain strictly test-based admissions. To me it seem arrogant that DeBlasio thinks he knows how to run Stuyvesant better than Stuyvesant does.
21
We now have a varied educational system in NYC,with a diverse assortment of great high schools.There are schools like the Beacon and others which do not use the specialized high school test and have a more holistic methodology in admissions.
It should perfectly fine to have few nationally recognized schools that rely on the specialized test.If the ethnic makeup of these schools is embarrassing to some city officials,then killing the test is not the solution. Lets do what it takes to give all NYC students change to excel.
7
The disproportionate number of Asian and Russian-Jewish kids at the SHS is not as much due to their intelligence, or even the hard work, rather, it's due to cultural and family values that have prioritized education above all, often at the expense of other objects, often, at the expense of basic necessities. They understand that education is a ticket to a better life and they make conscious choices. Where to live so that kids can go to strong schools, which tutor to use, how early to start studying. True, many families have resources, but they are not utterly wealthy, and in fact, these resources are due to the multiple generations realizing that education is important and investing in their children, giving them a leg up so that these children can then invest in their children and give them more of a leg up and so on. My grandfather was a poor shoemaker in small Ukrainian town. He died during the first days of war, leaving a young widow with two boys who scrapped to get them educated. Both boys went to college, my uncle spoke 3 languages, my father has a master's in engineering. Both of them back home were able to provide a more comfortable life than their Mom was able to provide to them. When we came to the US, we lost everything, and again, my parents had to scrap to provide an education for me. I graduated from one of the top universities and am doing very, very well. It's now my turn to invest in my kids.
35
NYC also has a second tier of schools that cater to mostly white, and oftentimes wealthy, students. They're very good, just not as competitive as the specialized high schools.
The Democratic establishment didn't dare touch those schools because that would invite the ire of white parents.
They went after the Asian families because they're not as politically active.
Think about that for a second.
24
@Brian
One not need to think about it at all. The schools to which you refer are private. Stuy and other high schools discussed here are TAXPAYER FUNDED schools!
3
@Ian Quan-Soon I think @Brian is referring to the 'screened' schools like Hunter and Roosevelt which are indeed TAXPAYER FUNDED as you emphasize.
14
@B
OK. However, one needs to have concrete data on the non-white populations at those schools.
When I went to Brooklyn Tech in the 70's, there was an assortment of every race/religion in my class.
Irish, Italian, Black and Puerto Rican, as well as Asian.
If the minority kids today can't complete the exam well enough, then, too bad.
BTW- I am both Black and Asian. I also graduated at the top 10% of my class.
23
I have no problem with the kids that work the hardest getting in.
23
@Jennifer then you support the De Blasio / Carranza plan, which rewards sustained hard work and academic accomplishment and not simply the results of one test.
1
No, because not all schools are equally rigorous. It is naive to believe so.
9
Absolutely no point in pushing people into an elite school unless they can keep up with the pace of the work once they are enrolled. If they aren't the plan is destined to fail.
14
@kazolar why do you think the Top 7% of students in NYC middle schools will not be able to "keep up"? these students overwhelmingly have 3 ors 4s in the state proficiency exams.
I doubt the 3s will keep up.
13
@Jennifer i've got news for you, there are plenty of "3s", especially in ELA, in some of these schools now.
You seem to have a profound faith in what the insight given by the SHSAT after years of test prep.
State tests and GPA are cumulative achievements, not "intelligence" tests. although i'm not too crazy about the state tests either.
Still no Asian version of JFK?
Noblesse Oblige lacking amongst privileged Asians?
2
The Asian Community if there is just one, has made pursuit of educational success a cottage industry but it comes at a great price. The children are not happy, are not well rounded, they are socially inept, awkward and to most other ethnic group considered weird and pathetic. And while hard work and focus will help pass many an exam but there will be a glass ceiling that real think on your feet smarts of a high IQ will overtake on the career ladder.
1
@Asher Yes, this applies to some Asian kids. I'm sure it applies to other kids too.
To paint the largest racial demographic in the world - which includes not just Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Singaporean, and Indian (our "high achieving" groups) but Thai, Laotian, Cambodian, Mongolian, Sri Lankan, Burmese, and so many others - as socially inept, awkward, weird, and pathetic is incredibly insulting.
Your way of thinking is exactly why this discrimination case is needed, and I need to repeat myself again - you can be successful and academically high achieving - and be happy, well-socialized, competent, and well-liked. These make up the future leaders of our world and include people from all countries.
9
The author harbors strong bias against Asians. Her articles like "Challengers of Affirmative Action Have a New Target: New York City’s Elite High Schools", cast Asians as being against equality when Asian families challenge the Mayor's proposals as being discriminatory to Asians.
Instead of polling Asians using independent pollster, she uses 8 Asian alumni not to illustrate how most Asians think but to further a biased narrative that there are “good” Asians who are against test. Donald Trump does this wnen he trots out blacks like Kanye West.
If she was unbiased, she'd investigate how specialized high schools went from being diverse between 70s-90s to sad state now. She would publish & analyze NY State enrollment records that are online. She'd note that the SHSAT test has been a constant through those diverse decades but K-8 education had suffered from cuts in SP & G&T programs.
She noted DeBlasio's failed $780MM Renewal Program but didn't report on need for small class sizes, teaching support for struggling students & upgrading physical school facilities.
She ignored view of Asian plaintiffs in Discovery lawsuit fighting racial gerrymandering, a form of Jim Crow against Asians. She ignored IBO assessment that Asian students would be severely impacted by Discovery Program while enrollment of white students has little change.
She doesn't critique Mayor's fear of Jewsih yeshivas while attacking Asians.
Racists & zealots like her have no place as journalists at NY Times.
67
Well, if we're going to talk about mandating diversity at our elite schools, why don't we also have a talk about such diversity at the top echelons of public and private institutions in the city. While Asians may dominate, percentage-wise, at these elite schools, they are virtually absent from the boards and executive leadership levels of public and private institutions throughout the city. Is it because Asians aren't working hard enough? Or that they are not smart enough... Hmm... I wonder why this is happening... Do you suppose it's the same kind of racial prejudice that black and brown Latino people face? As such, shouldn't Asians also be given a leg up?
7
The Asian community which for years has invested time and money in better education for their families doesnt want to integrate their little school system. Its new segregation racism and hiding behind their minority status is a joke considering more than 50% of these schools are asian these days. DeBlasio couldnt care about these schools or any schools he wants votes for his next election to something higher
2
The city's competitive public magnets are being used as a political scapegoat by a white male politician for longstanding societal problems that they did not cause and also cannot solve. Scrapping the colorblind exam will not address AT ALL:
1. the huge k-8 education cultural gap in non-white, non-Asian communities
2. how most ambitious rich white New Yorkers send kids to private/"independent" schools with tuitions equal to that of top universities, which lets them to keep their kids and their resources very class segregated (this also often turns into racial segregation).
3. how we choose our future doctors in large part based on their MCATS, our future lawyers on their LSATS, etc.
4. how we have two paths of education in the country (private and public), but that the top U.S. colleges for prestige are almost all private and very expensive.
5. how the holistic admissions to these top colleges are highly stacked in favor of private AND public k-12 educated rich white kids, and that public magnets are too often the only chance a non-athletic smart kid who is neither rich nor white has to compete with their intellectual peers for college admissions.
6. how different kids have different educational needs, and that the specialized math/science schools are designed to meet the needs, essentially, of the public school system's quantitative prodigies, who have highly specific academic needs. The system that works best for the top 1% IQ is NOT the answer for 99% of children.
4
Here are more statistics on how grossly discriminatory the current admissions criteria is, how thousands of top-performing, highly proficient Black and Hispanic middle schoolers are being LOCKED OUT of the 8 NYC tested schools by a discriminatory system.
In a previous comment, i showed that the number of Black and Hispanic middle schoolers who scored 3 or 4 (proficiency or high proficiency) on the 7th grade ELA (NY State English) test is in the thousands, and makes up a substantial portion of both cohorts (45.7% of 3s or 4s, 2018; 29% of 4s, same year). But the proportion receiving offers to Bx Sci, Stuy, and Bkln Tech is TINY. For Stuy, in the most recent year, the number of offers to Black and Hisp. students was a shocking 37: 4.1%.
Here is another statistic that explicates how prejudicial the situation is. Let's examine the ratio between the # of offers at all 8 NYC "testing" schools, by ethnicity, and the number of 4s (ELA, 2018, 7th grade) in the same ethnic group. That gives us a rough sense of how thoroughly these high performers are getting into these schools. it is not a perfect statistic, but it gives us a good sense of what is going on.
Asians: 2,620 offers at the 8 schools / 3.661 4s: 71.5% ratio
Whites: 1.344 offers / 3,001 4s: 44.7%
Hispanics: 320 offers / 1,922 4s: 16.6%
Blacks: 207 offers / 912 4s: 22.7%
The high performing Black and Hispanic students are out there, but are being denied admission to the testing schools. Let's end this abusive policy.
@bruce bernstein
If being a skilled violinist is a prerequisite for success at Julliard, are we "denying admission" to those who flunk the audition? Are auditions to top music schools an "abusive policy"?
What is your evidence that an impersonal test with no way of identifying an applicant's ethnicity is denying admission to certain races? It is not good enough to rattle off percentages because those are driven by many other factors.
The only abusive thing to do is to lower the bar (or worse to lower it for some) so that the next generation cannot strive for excellence.
Would you like Asian and Caucasian quotas in baseball, basketball and other such varsity sports to level that field?
30
@Pantagruel Your strong beliefs on this apparently are getting in the way of understanding the points I am making.
there are THOUSANDS of qualified Black and Hispanic middle school students, highly proficient, who are not getting offers to the 8 tested schools. The De Blasio / Carranza plan would not be "lowering the bar." In fact, in many ways it is RAISING the bar, as it will take into account long term hard work and accomplishment, not just the results on what you call"an impersonal test."
is the test in and of itself discriminatory? Indeed it is. it is discriminatory IN FAVOR OF those who have been taking test prep, in many cases for years, for exactly that kind of test.
I have no doubt that many gain admission without the test prep. But the evidence is very clear that test prep works, and at this point probably the majority of admittees are taking it.
it is simply not a fair system. The numbers show it, and a little analysis can show WHY the numbers are so extreme.
isn't it time we corrected this? How is 10 Blacks in an entire Stuy class of almost 1,000 justifiable? Shouldn't we be ashamed of this?
1
@bruce bernstein Unlike the Mayor’s Discovery Program proposal, the SHSAT does not select who takes it. It is open to all to register to take the test. If blacks and Hispanics are not signing up, let’s make it automatic registration.
They should do the same for G&T and get every child assessed. But wait, G&T isn’t offered in the Bronx and there are very few of them outside of Manhattan.
I wonder why that is...
8
"I think what people are missing . . is the Asian-American community by and large has a lot of privilege that the black and Latinx community does not . . .We aren’t dealing with the generational trauma of slavery, Jim Crow and redlining,”
The various Latino communities of New York are not dealing with "the generational trauma of slavery, Jim Crow and redlining" any more than the Pakistani community is. It is amazing the extent to which young people are indoctrinated into fashionable nonsense these days.
36
I am a graduate of Jamaica High School 1964
I am a 71 y.o white male.
Ironically Mayor Bill the stoopid is proposing a plan similar to the way the elite Ivy League schools discriminated against Jews, Catholics, African Americans and other groups.
Outright declared bias changed to hidden bias, to a need for all groups to be included(especially legacies and WASPs) to geographic diversity (a bias against eastern States, Il, and CA) all of which had large pools of the applicants they were biased against.
NYC would be better off with a simple solution:
Spend $$$ to increase the number of places in the schools either by expanding or creating new elite schools. That way you would not necessarily lower the # of Asian Americans, Caucasians et al but would be able to admit more of the favored groups. I am sure there are many "creative ways" to do this. Or you can do a 1960 AFL move:
Create 7 new elite schools with a version of the new standards. Then see what happens over 10 years assuming equal funding.
6
many false things are being stated about the Deblasio / Carrnaza plan for admission to the 8 "tested" public high schools. the plan would take the top 7% of students from every public middle school and place them in one of the 8 tested schools: not necessarily Stuy, or Bx Science. It is similar to admissions criteria currently in effect at the U of Texas, which guarantees the top 10% grads of all Tx. high schools admissions to a UT campus and the top 6% admissions to the flagship, UT Austin.
some are commenting that this will lower the standards at Stuy, Brook Tech, Bx Science, etc. This is not the case. there are literally thousands of high-performing Black and Hisp. middle schoolers who are not getting into the 8 tested schools due to the current admissions criteria, which are de facto discriminatory.
Some stats:
In 2018, there were 65,334 7th graders in NYC who took the ELA (NY State Language Arts, or English) exam. 27,838 received a 3 or 4: "proficiency." of those who got 3 or 4, 12,718 were Black or Hispanic: 45.7% of the top scorers.
Of the very top, the 4s, there were 9,803 citywide. 2,834 (approx 29%) of these high scorers were Black or Hispanic.
Yet what did the numbers of admissions to Bx Sci, Brooklyn Tech, and Stuy look like that year?
Bx Sci: 912 total offers; 90 Blacks and Hispanics: 9.8%
Bkln Tech: 1,904 offers, 224 Blacks and Hisp.: 11.7%
Stuy: 902 offers, a shocking 37 Blacks and Hisp.: 4.1%.
I will continue with more stats in a 2nd post.
@bruce bernstein
How many of those African-American and Hispanic students who scored 4s actually took the SHSAT? How many of them ranked Stuy, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech as their top 3? The number/percentage of offers is impacted by those answers.
How many non-African American and non-Hispanic kids who would have scored 4s opted out of the state tests? That affects the percentages of students who scored 4s.
Relying on the state tests assumes that they are valid measures of ability. Has that been documented? Even if it has, is it valid as a way to distinguish among students who score 3s and 4s i.e. are higher scores within that category truly indicative of higher ability in an absolute sense?
How many African-American and Hispanic students who took the SHSAT prepared for it vs. how many of other types of students prepared for it? That will impact performance also. If two college seniors with 4.0 GPAs take the MCAT or LSAT and one practices and the other doesn't, there may be differences in the scores as a result.
The SHSAT is not meant to only test the minimum state requirements. It is more demanding because (1) it needs to distinguish among large numbers of high performing kids and (2) those schools are more demanding, so an ability to learn new concepts or to figure them out on the test is important to do well at Stuy, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech (and the others as well).
5
@DA1967, I can't really answer all of your questions. You seem to want to poke holes in the data... yes, maybe Black and Hispanic kids are not taking the SHSAT in the same percentages as Asians and whites. But, what does this prove? the bottom line is we have thousands and thousands of high achieving Black and Hispanic kids who are not showing up in thee schools.
you are saying that state tests and GPA don't measure achievement? so the ONLY measure of achievement is this SHSAT test? what makes this such a powerful test?
you are saying the SHSAT measures "learning new concepts"? really? is that why test prep for the SHSAT works so well?
How come Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, Princeton, etc. etc. are moving AWAY from using a single test as criteria? What os the magic in this test?
My suspicion is that people LIKE the fact that we have prejudicial and segregated results in the "testing" schools. Maybe it "proves" something that people feel they want to prove.
Are the views of the people featured in this article representative of the broader Asian-American community? I have my doubts. You can easily find eight graduates of New York's specialized high schools who will come down almost anywhere on the question of admissions. It seems the writer and editors of this article wanted to show a high percentage of Asian American New Yorkers support the Mayor's plan. I don't know if any polling has been done, but I strongly suspect a strong majority of Asian American specialized high school alumni very much oppose doing away with the test and substituting a quota where the top ranked students from every single middle school would be allotted spots at the best high school schools. This article shows its author's bias--she is sympathetic to the Mayor's racial integration plan. Nothing at all wrong with believing the Mayor's plan is a good one. I am sympathetic to it myself. But to imply Asian-American alumni hold such a view is misleading and is not good journalism.
53
@Jacob Hi there! This was not intended to be a scientific poll, but rather a story that highlighted how deeply nuanced and emotional this debate is. I wanted to show how alumni who support the mayor's plan, oppose it, and are undecided are wrestling with the big questions it raises. I thought it was important to show all sides of this debate, which is why I interviewed alumni not only with different views on the test, but also of different ages and different ethnicities. The idea is to highlight the spectrum, which I think has been largely ignored in this debate.
5
@Jacob Thank you Jacob for also noticing and calling out the author's bias. I respect your support of the Mayor's plans because you are interested in fairly showing how Asians feel about his proposals.
13
@Eliza Shapiro I assert that Asians are divided on this issue like scientists are divided on global warming. Maybe the NYT should conduct a scientific poll to prove me wrong.
20
It is so impressive to read the very perceptive opinions of the recent specialized high school graduates. They contrast with some of the "SHSAT admissions and only SHSAT admissions" comments by people who have not been recent students in specialized high schools.
So many uninformed people posting that African-American and Latinx students just need to work harder and have better schools (despite the fact that thousands of them gets 4s on state exams). So many uninformed people posting that we need to give them more test prep and then more test prep when more affluent students do more test prep and then give them even more test prep to compete yet again -- I notice none of the students were embracing that idea.
4
Strange. I attended one of the elite schools way back when. Amazingly, I got in WITHOUT test prep!! It didn’t exist back then, and my folks wouldn’t have had the money to pay for it if it did. The elite schools were set up to educate very smart kids. Guess what - even though it’s not P.C. to say so, not everyone is equally smart. I would have liked to play in the NBA, but I was not very tall. Wish I could have had the basket lowered whenever I took a shot, which would have eliminated the discrimination I suffered.
22
@stevevelo
I can top that. I managed to get along just fine attending the local schools that everyone in my community had to attend because the idea of so-called elite schools was foreign to the local sensibility. So did my spouse.
We've both done well for ourselves because the leaders of our communities had the good sense to make sure that even the very bright among us could receive an adequate education in our schools. And to boot, neither of us has ever felt superior to our fellow beings (that sort of sentiment was also locally discouraged).
I think that Sarah Vowell expressed this same general idea a few months ago in a nice NYT piece that she wrote extolling the virtues of land grant schools.
3
@stevevelo My 3 siblings and I also got into the most sought after of the specialized H.S. without test prep. But testing well shouldn't be the definition of being "very smart." And certainly all of our classmates at the elite universities we went to didn't go to elite high schools.
the elephant in the room is the quality of all the other public schools in the city. Whatever does or does not happen to Bronx Science, Stuyvesant or Hunter will have zero impact on the lives of thousands of city kids who would not qualify even if the exams were meddled with. To have a real impact we need to raise teacher salaries, bring back art programs and chess tournaments. And we need more than just some political speech, we need to put some real money where our kids are.
12
The Asian-American community has a lot of privilege? I don't know what this person's experience was, but I didn't have access to tutors, prep classes, or really anything aside from a family that kept telling me to do well on the test but didn't have the resources to provide the tools to help me pass. Like a lot of Asians, my family was just poor, survived paycheck to paycheck, and just barely squeaked by. I passed the test and got into one of the "elite" schools in spite of our lack of privilege, not because we had any.
46
There is no way that this plan will not affect the specialized schools adversely. Admitting students who may be three grades or more behind in reading and math will result in their experiencing frustration, as will the more advanced students who will be bored by a dumbed down curriculum. Stuyvesant is already offering test preparation classes for interested students, and this could easily be extended city-wide.
Ethically the plan is also flawed, like the “numerous clausus” imposed by Tsarist Russia limiting the number of Jewish university students to their share of the population. In other words, it is racist,
using socially constructed ethnic categories to make life-changing admissions decisions,
The equation of test prep with wealth is also largely specious. Many of the AsianAmerican students admitted to the specialized schools come from families near or below the poverty line. Test preparation materials are available for free in school and public libraries, in print and online.
Finally, as others have pointed out, this same type of political pandaring was tried in the late 1960s: Open Admissions. It was disastrous for the unprepared students who dropped out in very high rates; better-prepared students avoided CUNY, which took decades to regain its reputation, Why repeat this error?
31
OK, what I'm about to write will get me clobbered, but here goes.
I'm (part) Hispanic and sadly (with maybe the exception of the Cuban exile community and Spaniards) many people in this community simply do not value or invest in their children's education. On average, parents don't tend to get involved and leave education and educational aspirations entirely up to the kids. And money may not even be an issue as a good many Hispanics, while certainly not wealthy, do have a fair amount of economic stability. That said (and in my own personal experience) these families will value growing their bank account and purchasing status symbols over investing in education. The kids that do make it to the top schools are either extremely self motivated (and I've known quite a few), or come from families that do care about education (for example the Cuban exile community). Maybe things have changed since I was in HS, but this is what I observed in the Hispanic immigrant community back in the day. If things are different now, then my sincere apologies. But all I know is that when my bus stops in front of the Kumon Learning Center on second avenue, its all Asian kids getting on (and no, they aren't wealthy since they all get off in Chinatown).
87
@Betti Thank you. Eliza Shapiro should have interviewed you.
23
@Betti Asian culture values education so much. My friends were wealthier than I - nice cars, nice houses in wealthy neighbourhoods, brand name clothes, technology... we went to a private school. I had none of those things - we were by no means poor, but we lived frugally and my parents did not value status symbols like that.
I could have gone to a public school, but my parents valued education such that they chose to use their income to send their children to a private school where they believed that would be the best for us - rather than a big TV, or a nicer car, or nice restaurants and vacations... I am regrettably not very well-traveled because of their sacrifice.
The values were the same, regardless of relative wealth - my peers and I pushed each other hard academically and I believe that is part of the "secret" of high academic achievement in Asians - intelligence is something we are proud of, rather than something to be picked on for (see the "nerd"/"geek" stereotype) as would be the case in other cultures. We were never forced - it was a mix of our school pushing us to do well, our parents, our own peers, and our own determination. My own anecdotal experience - obviously not applicable to everyone, but there is at least some truth to it.
Education is what took my father from a rural fishing village in China to an engineering firm in Hong Kong. The investment in education for his kids was worth it based on his experience.
25
These schools were created to bring together the best high school students from across New York City where the students could excel by reinforcing their desire to learn and get the best education possible, be taught by creative teachers in a good learning environment and go onto higher education at the nation’s best universities and colleges. The fact that these three schools have produced fourteen (14) Nobel Laureates, five (5) Pulitzer prize winners, Academy Award and Tony Award winners, and many leaders in the fields of science, mathematics, journalism, politics and law, and government and business, is a testament to the success.
The schools represented educational opportunities to many immigrants and first generation New Yorkers as a road to upward mobility. In the first half of the 20th Century, the schools were populated by Italian, German, Jewish and Russian immigrants from families that believed that the schools would lead to higher education and came from families and cultures that valued education. Today, these specialized high schools are indeed disproportionately Asian, yet for many of these Asians, English is a second language; nonetheless, they still manage to do well on the SHSAT. Many of the students also receive free or reduced meals. As in the past, entrance is merit based with the SHSAT - Keep it that way or face the CUNY debacle of the 1970's where Open Admissions to get more minority diversity forced the system to lower standards!
21
Social isolation can be determinative in high school performance. So from a practical standpoint, it's more important to make entering students competitive with their peers than to admit under-performers or merely those with fewer cumulative opportunities than their classmates have had. That's because at the outset of high school disparities will quickly become obvious, and those with them will spend excessive energy not on studying but on mulling over how they are being perceived by their classmates. This is my experience as teacher, tutor, and consultant.
I need to comment, however, on a decidedly Asian myth, or a series of them:
1. That "hard work" is a national, racial, or ethnic appropriation. what nonsense, and how shamelessly racist can you be? How dare you suggest that Asians work harder than non-Asians? How offensive is that?
2. That students who achieve less, or struggle more, work "less hard." FACT: the hardest working students ever are OFTEN the ones with the greatest challenges. This is especially true of the learning disabled, who work 3x as hard as any non-disabled student, even when they have equal or superior intelligence as the non-disabled.
3 That the American educational system -- on any level, *including college* -should be about rewards for "hard work" - that there should be some kind of mathematical formula equating some invisible (completely subjective) Hard Work Quotient with academic excellence. Cultural blindness & insensitivity.
1
The fact is that framing the consequences of changing the admissions policy as unfairly cutting Asian enrollment at the SHSAT schools by half is alarmist and misleading, at best.
For the 2017-2018 school year, Asian students made up over 72% of the student body at Stuyvesant HS (2424 out of 3322), while Asians students make up only about 17% of the citywide public school student population.
Cutting the proportion of Asian students by half would still mean that Asian students would be represented at a rate more than double their demographic. Even if all those 1212 seats went to Black (23 students, or 0.69%) & Latino (93 students, or 2.8%) students, they would still be wildly underrepresented by nearly half, in a city where the public school student population is nearly 23% Black and over 40% Latino/Hispanic.
Let's be sure that as we discuss this issue, we are discussing the true facts of SHSAT school enrollment, and not obscuring the impact of inequity on our city.
@Gemma Seymour
Short of a hard physical quota on each ethnic group you will never be able to engineer the sort of change you are hoping to see. Applicants will adapt to any new system you put in place and will restore the current distribution in a few years.
The only way to achieve perfect societal balance is have a quota system and to consider nothing beyond items like national origin, race, religion, and gender. This system will almost certainly be struck down as unconstitutional.
7
@Pantagruel Thank you for creating such a pretty strawman argument. I have said nothing in favor of the Mayor and Chancellor's plan—in fact, in my previous comment, I stated explicitly that I opposed its particulars—so whether or not that plan would be found unconstitutional is irrelevant to anything I've said.
My post here did nothing but point out the fact that characterising the proposed changes in they way that the article and commenters have as unfairly cutting Asian enrollment in half is alarmist and misleading, since doing so would still give Asian students immense overrepresentation and leave Black & Latino students grossly underrepresented.
I did not suggest any particular solution to this problem, and I most certainly did not suggest your bogeyman of "engineering", much less attempting to engineer "perfect societal balance" (as if such a thing ever could exist) though of course, as a Stuyvesant alumna, I'm quite good at engineering.
What I am hoping to see, rather than your terrible mischaracterisation of my perspective, is a NYC public education system that supports Black & Latino students, families, and communities equitably, and an admission policy for the SHSAT that accounts for the fact that Black & Latino students, families, and communities have suffered under past injustices that we have a civic and moral duty to alleviate.
@Gemma Seymour
Both your original remark and your subsequent rejoinder are equivocal in the extreme but by using expressions like "wildly underrepresented" and subsequently "immense overrepresentation" you have conclusively established that in your worldview there is a Goldilocks style JustRight-representation. Specifically it is clear that your Goldilocks level is attained when the population of a school like Stuyvesant demographically mirrors the proportions in New York City.
How is this not social engineering or at least expressive of a desire to engineer society to conform to your moral and aesthetic standards?
It is perfectly true that you "did not suggest any particular solution to this problem" but I am surprised that you somehow see that as a virtue and not a shortcoming of both your missives.
Essentially you have an idealized conception and are "hoping" for a genie to pop out of a bottle and make it so.
My point? That genie is not Bill de Blasio.
5
Would getting an audition free spot in the Julliard automatically make someone a master violinist?
What next? Should the New York Philharmonic also dispense with auditions?
Would you buy tickets to such a concert? A concert of musicians who got into the Philharmonic because their music teacher vouched for them as the best of that teacher’s school.
19
Politically sanctioned academic genocide that frames "too many Asians" as a problem and labels schools where they deservedly dominate via merit as "lacking in diversity" when they are also constantly oppressed minorities will not solve America's educational crisis, but destroy New York City's reputation as a place where smart people of any color (including yellow/gold) are welcome to pursue their dreams.
The painful truth is that the competitive public magnets like NY's specialized schools have a stricter meritocracy than our top 50 prestigious universities and workplaces, so it makes perfect sense that Asian students who excelled in their highly meritocratic high schools would perform somewhat less well in universities and workplaces than one would have expected. That is more a sad reflection of the corruption in our society post-public-magnet-high-school than proof that we are overestimating the talent of the Asian American students or the educational effectiveness of these exam-screened high schools.
13
Racism comes in many forms. Including reverse racism which gives African Americans an unfair leg up on better qualified Asian Americans.
32
What I have found most useful in thinking about this debate is the quoted section below in the IBO report cited (https://ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/admissions-overhaul-simulating-the-outcome-under-the-mayors-plan-for-admissions-to-the-citys-specialized-high-schools-jan-2019.pdf), which describes the benefits of using a wider range of criteria to select students. If student success could be predicted readily based on a singular number I would certainly oppose these new guidelines, but there is plenty of academic work to suggest this is not the case.
"Some studies have documented the importance of using multiple criteria to accurately predict future student success.. Furthermore, some studies—including one focused on performance at the specialized high schools—have found that grades provide a better predictor of future student success compared with performance on standardized tests. Additionally, since the academic criteria in the proposal would rely on New York State tests (which are routinely taken by each student) as
opposed to the SHSAT (which students must elect to take),
all students would have equal access to the specialized
high school admissions process—including high-performing
students who are less likely to take the exam in the first
place (girls, students in poverty, and Hispanic students)."
And if you're worried about students getting in who don't deserve it because they're school isn't good enough. Shouldn't we be advocating improving all school's in NYC?
2
@Megan
In NYC there are also a group of well-regarded, screened-admissions high school which use grades/work "portfolio criteria. These schools do not use the test referenced in this article.
Check out the website Inside Schools for more detailed info about the NYC public school system.
DeBlasio is a populist fool who doesn’t have any good ideas about how to fix things, but instead is playing the race card so that he doesn’t have to deliver on what education in NYC really needs - a way to ensure that all students in the system get a certain quality of instruction and opportunity, regardless of whether or not they make it to one of the specialized schools. Eliminating the test in the name of diversity is just another way of pandering to his African-American base. Regardless of whether or not one can prep for a test (and one can prep, I won’t deny it), if you aren’t good enough you’re not going to be able to fake it, or rely on some subjective measure that likely varies widely by school and teacher, to get you there. And if you’re not good enough to get there by doing well on the test, we shouldn’t be giving you a spot that someone else would have done more with.
Let’s fix ALL the schools so there is at least a minimum standard of education that all students in the city attain, rather than compromising the best ones that we have today through policies designed to do no more than pander to racial identities.
47
Asian-Americans are overrepresented in many top educational institutions because they are discriminated against, not because they are privileged. For example, our immigration laws make it very hard for Asians of low education to come here in the first place. Then, Asian-Americans in the US are pushed into fields where people are judged based on objective criteria and formal credentials because they lack the social respect and connections of larger ethnic groups to succeed in other kinds of careers.
It’s quite unfair to compound this discrimination by trying to exclude Asians from top educational institutions. If we want to reduce Asian overrepresentation, the solution is to loosen immigration laws and help Asians become more successful without high credentials. Notably, Jewish overrepresentation in high-education career paths (originally caused by centuries of Jews not being allowed to take other career paths) has actually decreased in recent years as Jews have become more accepted in mainstream society and are more able to succeed in a variety of careers.
30
@Aoy Absolutely. Gold star comment.
6
Why not develop more "elite" schools? Or, alternatively, why not raise the caliber of the mediocre schools?
8
Myself and my 3 siblings, immigrants from an underdeveloped country, all graduated from Stuyvesant in the mid-80s-early 90s. None of us had test prep. Stuyvesant was a way for us to get the education we deserved for being naturally gifted (no tiger parents here, we are just a family of motivated thinkers and learners) but never got in our elementary and middle schools. I very much appreciate what that opportunity brought though it wasn't nearly the golden ticket everyone thinks it is. However, if I look beyond my own experience and the benefits I got from being a good test taker, I see so many holes that don't meet the needs of our community and our society. A multilayered admissions process that admits a mix of students who are the best test takers, the top 10% of a middle school, and even some of the promising but not high scoring kids is what we should be striving for. Lowell High School in San Francisco has such a system that creates an interesting, curious, smart, and diverse student body that also allows for some bright but marginalized, undereducated children in our city to have an opportunity to be with the peers they deserve.
Moreover, the top 3 schools in NYC aren't the only option for bright kids in the city. Back in my day, kids could also go to Townsend Harris, Cardozo, and Hunter H.S. If you think your or your child's future is solely controlled by the right high school, you are in for some disappointment.
4
De Blasio's push to change the admissions criteria isn't about education reform nor is it about 'equitable' outcomes. How do I know? Because the 110 magnet schools only account for 74k students out of the 1.1M in the NYC public school system.
If we're really going to talk about education reform, let's ditch De Balsio's divisive approach and talk about collective solutions that improve the experience and outcomes for the 1M students who don't go to magnet schools in new york city.
14
@Frank Thank you very much.
Another awful example of this country loving away from being a merit based society to an “equality of outcome” society
So misguided
14
so if asians are upset because they are getting pushed aside can white folks be upset too?
basically, race is being used to link with economic disadvantage which is not always true. so, rich black/hispanic overrides poor white/asian in advantages on two fronts - economic advantages and preferential admissions.
5
@ray, of course there are rich black people and there are poor black people, just like there are rich white people and poor white people. That is irrelevant. What is relevant is leveling a playing field in which white people, by default, are 50 yards ahead of everyone else.
To the NY Times:
Would it be possible to expand discussion?
Perhaps the NYT could interview students/alum at the other test schools, including the newest test school the High School for MSE at City College?
Interview African-American and Latino students who took the test - 1) those were accepted at at least one school but who chose not to attend and 2) those who were not accepted anywhere. Where did these students go to high school and what are their opinions?
Also, interview African-American and Latino students who decided not to take the test at all.
2
Ms. Ahmad reeks of non existent privilege when she states "“I think what people are missing when they say we are being punished, what they are neglecting to see is, the Asian-American community by and large has a lot of privilege that the black and Latinx community does not,”
Her father is a Taxi driver and she is not wealthy. Many if not most Asian Americans come from the lower most strata yet they pull themselves up. Asian Americans are routinely profiled and insulted yet they take it into their stride and keep a low profile. It does not mean we are better treated. Ahmad is either clueless to her community's struggles or suffers from being brainwashed by our liberal beliefs that only the Black and Hispanic folks are the victims here. You can dump as many Black and Hispanic kids in these 'top' schools without seeing any major change in their performance. In a similar vein, those displaced Asian American kids will still do well, but not as well as they should have. A loose-loose situation.
17
This plan has a fatal flaw. Asian parents can simply spread out and enroll their children into all the underperforming middle schools where they can claim all the top spots. It might actually be easier than scoring well on the test.
11
@Chico, yes, because, you know, all Asian people are the same (and they all know each other too!), and they operate with a monolithic horde mentality with the intention of disrupting the system and placing everyone else at a disadvantage.
3
If competition is this fierce, it seems there are a lot more kids who are not only talented academically, but also highly motivated. So, why are there not more high performing schools? Why are we even discussing which kids get to go to a great school and which kids do not earn a spot? And for all the kids who are left out, what is being done for them to raise them up?
10
@Lois, there are many, many magnet schools in NYC for "high performing" students. But Stuyvesant is the Harvard of NYC magnet schools and apparently it is some kind of birthright that every minority (except Asians) is entitled to.
5
What a cowardly plan. If the mayor and chancellor want to help the latino and black students gain access to some of the best high schools, they would work harder to improve middle schools and they would make NYC High schools truly a system of choice by getting rid of zoned high schools in Brooklyn and Queens, which no student from the Bronx could apply to, and priority district 2 schools on Manhattan's east side.
This is a terrible plan. I love how of course neither politician has an 'skin' in this game: their children have all already benefited and graduated from the tracked/desirable high schools. Of course they wouldn't be proposing anything like this plan if their children were currently NYC public middle school students. It makes me sick for the future of NYC public school education. The end result of this short sighted plan is that many ambitious students/families will leave the NYC public school system.
189
@CarynD212
Or they would spend the money necessary to make all schools as good as "the best."
What's wrong with that plan?
I'm a proud, life-long member of the hoi polloi. Have never understood the impulse to separate myself from my fellow humans.
7
For all those attacking the plan and saying the test is "fairest" way for students to get into elite schools how do you explain less then 1% of Stuyvesant HS being Black and Hispanic when they make up 70% of the school population. Are Black and Hispanic students all dumb and lazy? Genticaly inferior? Their parents are all criminal drug addicts who don't care about their children? A single test which can be studied for is NOT the fairest way to get into an elite school and if only TEN Black and Hispanic students are in the freshman class at Stuyvesant something is very wrong and requires immediate and drastic action.
41
@Jessica It takes real research and investigation into root cause and actions needed. It takes investing in K-8 and also all high schools. Small class sizes, teaching support, modern school facilities and buildings, higher teacher pay, etc. to improve the education outcome for all students especially those who are currently behind. All these are hard work that the mayor who is leaving office wants to skip because he wants to look good being the great integrator when running for national office.
Are you interested in solving the whole problem or just feel good about being progressive? Feeling good doesn't change what the remaining 99% of the disadvantaged students face.
90
@Jessica
You seem to think that getting into an elite school will magically transform the entrant. In reality this process requires the entrant to have the skills to take advantage of what is offered.
The entrance test is there for a reason. It ensures that everyone is of a certain basic level.
By all means we should provide opportunities for everybody to be able to get in BY PASSING A TEST. But if you change the entry requirements to advantage the underrepresented you will set them up for failure at Stuyvesant and afterward.
101
@Jessica: 10 out of 850 is not less than 1%. In any case, combining African-American and Hispanic students, the 9th grade enrollment at Stuy was 31 in 2015-16 and 25 in 2016-17, per NYSED.gov. Not sure about this year. Still, I understand your point.
You ask how there could be such a big disparity in the % of grade 8 students who identify as African-American or Hispanic and grade 9 Stuy students who identify as either. Do you know the % of students who took the SHSAT and identify as African-American or Hispanic? Or how many of them listed Stuy first on their list? Both impact the numbers. Do you know that Stuy used to have higher percentages, when there were only 3 SHS and thus fewer choices for those children? Do you know that the number of private schools has expanded greatly in the past 30 years, and that they and parochial schools actively recruit and provide financial aid for high-perfoming African-American and Hispanic students, to increase their own diversity, thus draining part of the pool? And that wonderful organizations like Prep for Prep provide other means for those students to attend schools other than the SHS, further draining the pool? Private schools and Prep for Prep aren't recruiting white and Asian-American students like that, meaning they look to the SHS and other top schools instead.
And that the numbers at Stuy also were higher before the city stopped "tracking" in the lower and middle schools in underprivileged neighborhoods?
62
I agree with the Mayor. The students in schools should represent the population because we want an educated population and not have sectors of the population educated. These schools are supported by EVERYONE'S TAX dollars, and the ASIANS are a newcomer.
I was born in Pakistan but mostly grew up in UAE. I went to colleges in the US and I hold 3 advanced degrees. I did it because my father instilled in me the value of education I WANTED TO DO IT. I am quite good at learning and school stuff.
I am married to an Arab woman who is continuously haranguing our daughter (11 yo) to do better and better and my wife has learned this behavior from some documentaries about how the Koreans punish their children to prepare for exams etc. Furthermore, my wife is continuously arguing with me to send our daughter for private tutoring etc. I find this to be totally unnecessary as I can teach my daughter anything up to college level mathematics, physics, chemistry, computer science, business administration, etc... (recall I have 3 advanced degrees). I want my daughter to be "excellent" in her oratory skills, have impeccable language ability so I tell her to read lots and lots of books, NY Times and I also want her to be human through lots of liberal education.
The problem I see with Asians (Indian, Paki, Chinese, etc.) is that "almost" all of them stress rote learning and have poor social skills. Also, these communities prefer staying in their ghettos and promote segregation which is bad.
21
@NA "These communities prefer staying in their ghettos" - so white people don't live in mostly white ghettos like Park Slope, Williamsburg, UWS, Tribeca, etc? No, that's called "mainstream." And if a bunch of nonwhites moved into the neighborhood, prepare for white flight.
Nothing benefits white supremacy than to have segments of the non-white community fighting each other while their privilege goes under the radar.
16
@NA, all of what you wrote is appalling as well as false. Racist. Misogynistic. Ignorant. As an Asian American who pays a dear amount of taxes, I find it especially insulting that somehow you think Asians are freeloading off of the system and they are all robots lacking personalities and emotions. Simply shameful. Newcomers? Really?
50
@NA Interesting that this comment, full or ridiculous and unfounded statements as it is, ex: "The problem I see with Asians (Indian, Paki, Chinese, etc.) is that "almost" all of them stress rote learning and have poor social skills. Also, these communities prefer staying in their ghettos and promote segregation which is bad." and that Asian opinions should be discounted because "ASIANS are a newcomer." is a NYT pick. Kind of tells you everything you need to know about the NYT's view on this issue.
45
I am an alumna of Stuyvesant (1986), a NYC-born Filipina-American, and currently work for a diversity, inclusion, and equity-focused social justice NPO/NGO. I support ensuring equal access to the SHSAT schools for disadvantaged students. However, I disagree with the specifics of the plan conceived by the Mayor and Chancellor, a plan developed without the input of any SHSAT alumni, the city's brain trust.
We must pursue a solution that addresses the root causes of inequity for Black & Latino students, families, and communities, educationally and economically, since all education begins in the home and family support is the best predictor of educational success. Increasing equity for Black & Latino students is not anti-Asian racism.
I do not believe that doing away with the SHSAT is warranted; however, we must recognise that no test is "fair" when everything leading up to test day is mired in unfairness. Still, even if we were able to institute a just PreK-9 education system overnight, it would take a decade or more to produce tangible results and would offer no relief to students already impacted by and suffering under the injustices of the current NYC public education system.
Research proves that merely by exposure to accelerated learning environments, all students are able to improve. We need to be mindful of the fact that SHSAT school seats do not exist to reward students, but to educate them, and we have a civic duty to make those resources available equitably.
4
Interesting that some commenters encourage Asian-American students to stop “obsessing” over top high schools and Ivy League colleges and in the same breath claim that top tier education is crucial for African American and LatinX students for educational and career opportunities. How can it possibly be that an elite education can be vital for some but not for others?!? There is a serious disconnect here. Education and career opportunities must be available to ALL. But this can’t happen by taking opportunities away from bright, motivated kids who just also happen to be Asian American.
64
A lack of diversity is a problem at mediocre schools as well. My middling public high school in Long Island was less than 1% African American and I still feel stymied by that. The real problem with the mayor's proposal is that he is not taking serious steps to improve the quality of public education in New York for the majority who will never get into Stuyvesant. This contrived limiting of the discussion to Asian vs. Black/Latino misses the lack of seriousness to give every New York City high school student the chance s/he deserves.
12
Why can't we have an education system that gives everyone an elite education?
Or is inequality inherent in capitalist America?
If so, let's change that. Bring everyone up rather than push good people down.
5
@Deborah Fink
The reason we can't is that an elite education is not confined to classrooms, even in the most elegant schools. Elite education begins in and is sustained in homes. Very well educated parents are regularly educating their children, sometimes without realizing it -- day in, day out: conversations, literacy, vocabulary, concepts.
So even if governments believe they can "level the playing field" by AA (which I support), by quotas, and by various forms of manipulating student bodies, they cannot manipulate home environments. I was ridiculously advantaged, due merely to my parents -- even before the elegant schools I attended. That gap cannot be completely closed in four years of high school.
4
@Deborah Fink
continuing, I have to say that inequality is inherent in LIFE. It's a fact of life, transcending capitalism. Again, when it comes to education, the home environment is so crucial that PBS aired the results of a study, about 10 years ago, in the rural South. It was with primary age students. This pilot school of all poor black students was taught and administered by *crack* professionals, both black and white. Better teachers and more committed, generous human beings you will not find anywhere. Result was that when the students were "confined," so to speak, to that intense and supportive environment, they managed to learn to read and sustained that, but after that experiment, once on their own, they regressed. Why? Illiteracy in the home. Designers of said experiment then realized that attacking adult illiteracy in rural black homes was the way to go -- something I've been saying for 15 years.
4
Making public schools more diverse and available to the public seems like a sympathetic goal, even at the cost of diluting the talent pool and overall educational attainment of the student body.
But this seems sure to generate a host of unintended consequences. Will high achieving leave the system to attend private schools? Will others adeptly transfer into low-performing districts where they will proceed to attend the specialized high schools in outsized numbers, crowding out other groups in the process, district by district?
And most disturbingly, will the many deserving talented black and Latinx kids who make it in be subjected to the prejudice that they aren't really qualified to be there? Will their less-prepared peers be stigmatized by low grades and remedial reading and math programs? Will their achievement, success and ultimate well being suffer as a result of four years of struggling to keep up, compared to the previous success and validation which they enjoyed in middle school?
And will the schools themselves lose much of their luster, as their SAT and AP test scores plummet, and the Ivy League is able to find the former pool of students achieving highly at other high schools, public and private?
All of these outcomes seem reasonably likely to some degree.
At some point, perhaps just eliminating these schools becomes the least objectionable alternative. If it's not going to be a merit badge, it's just a badge. Why bother?
16
@James Thanks for your comment. I've spoken to many black and Hispanic alumni of specialized high schools and some of them recalled feeling isolated and, in some cases, discriminated against during their high school years. Some advocates for integration have asked the city how it plans to better integrate black and Hispanic students into the specialized schools if the mayor's plan passes - still lots of unanswered questions there.
4
@James, another unintended consequence of attending an elite high school is that the curriculum is a lot more rigorous. Accordingly, a student who would easily maintain a 3.8 GPA at a "regular" school may struggle to maintain a 3.0 GPA at the elite school. At the end of the day, college admissions look at your GPA, regardless of the school you attended, so students who are ill-equipped to attend an elite school may earn much lower grades despite getting a better education overall.
7
@Ed Perhaps you're right, but I think that it's far more likely that widespread grade inflation will result from the new policy, as there will be incredible pressure to give good grades to all of the so-called "gifted" students. Those students will then benefit from affirmative action programs to enroll in prestigious Ivy League institutions and be held up as success stories. This might, in fact, be the entire objective of the program.
6
After reading the comments below I have compiled some side effects of this misguided plan. Obviously what will happen is some combination of these effects.
1. GENTRIFICATION: It will gentrify neighborhoods even faster as Asians and Whites will simply move to a school/neighborhood where their child can excel to hit the HS jackpot. Depending on your political persuasion gentrification may or may not be a good thing but the long term result for high schools will be no change in their ethnic composition.
2. HELICOPTER PARENTS: Since Middle School results will matter, helicopter parents will thrive by fighting for every point on their child's exams. Since the exams will be administered by each school, school administrations will be under severe pressure to appease the best connected and loudest among the parents. Needless to say this will create a culture of 'gifts' at holiday time and again the motivated will prevail.
3. WHITE/ASIAN FLIGHT to Suburbs: Good High Schools in NY is one of the reasons a lot of people put up with the hardships of city life. If this plan goes through some people will move Upstate or to New Jersey.
4. CHARTER HIGH SCHOOLS: If Public High Schools are perceived as non-meritocratic and politicized, other players will enter the fray and offer the same services under a different flag. The term "prestigious New York City High School" will soon be a distant memory.
5. COLLEGE ADMISSIONS: NY Public High Schools will lose their place in College admissions.
29
@Pantagruel And Asian-Americans will join the Republican Party en masse.
1
@Pantagruel, by and large, most first generation Asians will choose to live among other Asians, which is why there are Asian ghettos throughout the city. Other than Palisades Park, NJ, there are no suburban Asian ghettos.
1
@Pantagruel The cynic in me thinks that deBlasio and Carranza would love to see the white and asian middle class flee New York City.
3
I don't think test prep is the way to nurture the students our society will need in the coming years. Here in South Carolina there is an almost begrudging acceptance of the idea that a broad and substantial increase in public school funding, across the board, is necessary for the betterment of all. Of course Trump and DeVoss want to go the other way - allowing parents to pull money out of our schools.
Having said that - what about accepting the mayor's proposal for a five year period while making test prep available to the top students at each middle school?
2
Social engineering and cultural appropriation! Put the red vest on your service dog and head for the hills!
3
Testing is not perfect.
I never had a moment of test prep because as one of only 3 'non minorities' in my NYC public school I didn't qualify for say, Prep for Prep. Yet, I went to a specialized HS.
Testing is not perfect. Especially since we have stopped using our academics to write the exams and have switched to companies like Pearsons. There are vague obsfucating questions, cultural bias etc. Yet testing is still the fairest and most accurate tool to assess and predict academic ability. Removing testing is to remove opportunity. The first women to work for US Fish and Wildlife service were hired by exam in 1936. No one knew the top candidates' gender. Despite pressures and bias, no one can see your color, gender, or social standing on a scantron.
The mayor's plan calls for a gender and color blind process to be replaced by sheer nepotism.
Testing is also the best way to assess knowledge and predict academic ability. It is the fairest and most accurate. If we wish to provide better quality education we need to increase the funding and quality of all public schools.
Regardless of politics all parties will one day learn this hard truth:
I say this as a specialized HS alumnus and barley over minimum wage worker,
Education does not guarantee anything other than education.
11
the test should be the most significant factor -- amongst other (defined) factors -- to gain entry. anything else is heretical to the foundations of public education. this is motivated by anti-asian sentiment because "they've already had a lot of success" -- and a desire to gain the support of non-asian minority voters. stop the madness and celebrate achievement.
14
I laughed while reading this piece. First, because of the current American definition of "Asian": since that seems to mean "people from Asia", the article misses a major point in the debate, which has to do with the success of Korean-, Chinese-, and Vietnamese-Americans and other students of southeast Asian descent. A second cavil regards the focus on graduates of the elite high schools; what do prospective students and their "Asian" parents think? If the current exam seems biased toward one or another ethnic group, change it: would-be applicants can then study accordingly.
But as soon as a common exam is abandoned altogether, the system will inevitably be corrupted. It's bad enough that the children of big shots get preference in Ivy League admissions; abolishing an exam for the elite public high schools will result in the children of big shots elbowing out the best and the brightest there too. For a long-suffering New York audience I might suggest a similar change for the NFL draft, which, after all, now results in very few "Asian" linebackers.
14
@Martin Daly
Your response is nonsensical. The US's Asian definition includes all the ones to which you referred. The NFL draft ???????? Apparently you are also not familiar how the draft operates.
Eliza Shapiro decided to give equal time to both proponents and opponents of the mayor's plan on her piece about the Asian-American community.
That would be like a reporter wanting the gauge the political climate of West Hollywood an giving equal time to the few MAGA hat wearing Trump supporters who exist there.
6
@Lou Great point. What's lost in Eliza Shapiro's ostensibly "balanced" presentation of the subject is that the Asian community in New York is not "divided" on the mayor's plan: it is overwhelmingly opposed to it, as are the alumni of the specialized high schools. It's not at all clear to me who supports the plan besides some activist groups.
16
“A lot of people think we’re a monolith, and this is not just the case,” Ms. Ahmad said, referring to Asian-American specialized school alumni.
Immediately after saying "the Asian-American community by and large has a lot of privilege that the black and Latinx community does not,”
Maybe she should only speak for herself.
16
This seems like an incredibly one-sided debate. As someone with no prior knowledge of the policy or the general popular opinion, I think this article is insufficient in providing the whole debate.
Not a single person is outright, principally opposed to the policy. Most vary between feeling lukewarm to outright support. It would only be judicious for the NYT to showcase the hardline opposition as only the hardline proposition.
To be clear, I have no formulated opinion on the policy. However, I feel I would better be able to draw my own conclusions if I were to be able to hear and understand both sides.
10
@Luca Zislin Hi Luca - Soo Kim is opposed to the mayor's plan, as is Philip Fung. John Liu has expressed opposition to the plan as well. I really wanted to showcase how nuanced this debate is by highlighting voices across a spectrum of beliefs.
2
In another thirty years, three out of every five here in America will be Non-European descent. at that point we might have to redefine who will be AMERICAN as we know it today. Or may be change the whole name AMERICA all together. It is a Toxic European name.
Nothing has changed over the years. I graduated Brooklyn Tech in 1967. In those days, there were very few Black students and some Asians. Back then, the Asian population of the city was smaller.
1
If you are unhappy about the ethno-racial balance at the specialized high schools why don't you imitate what has been successful in the past?
1. Jaime Escalante was nationally acclaimed for his success with Hispanic students but, when the push back came, it was able to curtail that success.
2. Elmont Memorial Jr.-Sr. High School just across the Queens border in Nassau county is doing very well with black students.
3. Sports teams such as the Chicago Bulls have successfully established college prep schools.
4. Sports celebrity works - Want to increase the number of Dominican New Yorkers with strong math skills? Arrange a photo-op with Karl Anthony Towns for every child who passes the 9th Year Math Regents exam with a 90% or above in those schools with a sizable number of Dominican students.
If you equip under-represented people withstronger skills, they'll be in better position to compete.
3
re: Soo Kim:
"For Mr. Kim, a mediocre middle school student who was often in trouble, Stuyvesant, from which he graduated in 1993, was a life raft... And he believes that in order for future students to have the kind of experience he had, they have to gain admission the same way he did."
There's something not being said here. If Mr. Kim was a mediocre student in middle school, how did he come to ace the test? Did he receive test prep paid for by his family?
And does a "mediocre student" who was "often in trouble" deserve admissions to Stuyvesant? There are many thousands of Black and Hispanics in middle school in NYC today who are superb students, and never in trouble. But because they don't ace this one test, they don't get the same chances that Mr. Kim got.
58
@bruce bernstein
To take a leaf from your preferred playbook maybe Kim faced discrimination for his ethnicity or accent in Middle School and only an impersonal high stakes test let his true worth shine through.
35
@Pantagruel
Which is why he said "there is something not being said here"
However, what you just did was try to interject your personal hypothesis.
I agree with Bruce. His story just don't add up. I really wish the journalist did some much needed follow up questions. This article just raised more questions then it answered.
4
@bruce bernstein, you're making a lot of assumptions here. It's best to keep it to the facts at hand.
6
The media discussion of the "elite" schools - the schools based on the test - mostly fails to mention:
1. The demographics of all the test schools are not identical
2. There are other well-regarded, admissions-based schools that are not test-based but more "portfolio" based. For example, Millennium, Townsend Harris, Bard, Beacon etc.
If the test is eliminated, the result will just be more "portfolio" admissions based schools. There have also been concerns about demographics at those schools.
3. Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech do focus on math and science. Schools like Millennium, Townsend Harris are more humanities-based based though of course the curriculum includes math science.
3
@LS, Inevitably, you will find an Asian student and a non-Asian student with similar "portfolios." So who gets in?
1
There is this ongoing fantasy that if you significantly alter the way students are admitted to the tested schools, the schools will stay the same as they are with the current entrance method.
If you admit students who could not get in under the current method, they won't suddenly turn into students like the ones there now because they're going to the same school building.
The school will not be made up of the kids who did the best on a citywide test everyone took. It will be made up of kids who were top performers at their middle schools.
Where middle schools have few kids doing well, the competition won't be that tough. In middle schools were many kids do well, the competition will be ferocious.
15
My daughter attended a screened Manhattan public school and is now a freshman at a leading science and technology college, the absolute opposite of her 'elite' high school. My other child attends a different, albeit also screened, high school.
At my daughter's school, the parents raised in excess of $400,000 to fund all sorts of fancy programs and yet each year the school would finish the year with well over $200,000 sitting in the bank. But the quality of the teachers varied in the extreme. And when it came time for college? The most popular colleges are, to no ones shock, typical SUNY and CUNY schools.
There are 800 students per grade at Stuyvesant and Bronx Science and a little less than double that at Brooklyn Tech. Allowing for the most generous circumstances, a maximum of 20% of those 3000 students will attend highly selective, private colleges. Meaning 2500 students, will 'settle' for SUNY, CUNY and other altogether wonderful colleges.
And every year these same wonderful colleges admit students from across NYC, the state, the country and beyond, from the screened to the unscreened to the zoned to the performing arts schools and more.
Attending a specialized high school, or screened high school, for that matter, means being surrounded by students who also WANT to be there.
We need to ensure that those "less fortunate students" are similarly educated during their 4 years of high school so that college success is a logical and natural assumption.
7
For almost twenty (20) years I mentored Stuy students at my company, where I hired juniors and seniors. Over the years, I saw ethnic changes in majority representation of the school's student body; first American Jews, to Russian Jews, now Asians. Not once was I able to hire an African American or Hispanic student. And, it was not for trying; there were too few of them. I should add that for every hire I interviewed at least 5 students.
My practical experiences: only one student, out of approximately 30, I genuinely believe to be absolutely brilliant. Most were intelligent and bright, which I attribute to their willingness to work hard at their studies.
Most showed little creativity, many lacked critical interpersonal skills and their written communication skills were almost non-existent.
Most knew little to nothing about African Americans' or Hispanics' experiences/histories in the US and had little, if any, interactions with them other than what they saw on TV.
Most Asian students felt they were simply doing their parents bidding and would have made different choices if given the opportunity. I should add that the average time students spent at
firm was about 3-5 years as many stayed on while attending college in NYC.
My conclusion: the system of admissions to Stuy and other NYC's elite high schools is not the best way to educate our youth to be American citizens or for the work place of the future. One's resume is not all there is to life!
11
You are using anecdotal experience to perpetuate the Asian stereotype that we are monolithic drones who lack personality and just excel at crunching numbers. This is the exact fallacy that admissions officers embrace when they downgrade Asian American applicants using “holistic” criteria.
7
@V
I clearly stated that those were my actual experiences and observations as a business owner that closely worked with and mentored students, including non-Asians, from Stuy over a period of 20 years. They are not "anecdotal".
2
@Ian Quan-Soon, if you're truly trying to find black Latino students to mentor, why don't you go to the schools where black and Latino students actually attend rather than Stuyvesant? That's just like flying to the Sahara Desert and complaining that it's too dry.
2
Interesting take. Without a doubt, test-based admissions favors those who have the resources to prepare best.
On the other hand...
A strictly grades-based approach will change how the lower schools do business when at least some of the students (and their parents) become more focused on achieving that rank, rather than learning the lessons of creativity, independence and the occasional risk. My child attended school in a race-to-nowhere type district - I'd hate to see all those ridiculous pressures start even younger.
Sure, Stuyvesant will become more integrated (the top students in a completely African American school will be, by definition, African American), and that is important. But Stuyvesant will also lose the truly exceptional children who weren't yet achieving up to their potential in the classroom.
Can't we find some compromise? Clearly the test isn't the right test, but there is definitely some merit to an outside-the-classroom assessment tool.
2
@Lydia, an "outside-the-classroom assessment tool?" You mean a color wheel?
1
“Getting into the school is not a guaranteed ticket to success, and being in another school shouldn’t be a guaranteed failure.”
I’ve heard this argument before and it doesn’t make sense. If the above is true, then the fact that black and Hispanic kids are underrepresented in these schools isn’t a problem. It’s either one or the other.
As for Ms. Ahmad’s claim that Asian-Americans have more privilege, isn’t that an overly broad statement? Doesn’t it reinforce the Model Minority stereotype and is in odds with her assertion that Asian-Americans aren’t monolithic?
4
As a Graduate of Stuyvesant HS in 1969, the lat year that Stuyvesant was strictly male, I am firmly against Mayor De Blasio's plan for the so called elite high schools. While it addresses a disturbing systemic inequality in need of remedy, it fails to address the real problem. This is the inequality of elementary and middle schools throughout the city. If these schools are unable to provide the education necessary for their students to achieve their potential, their representation at the elite high schools will necessarily be disproportionate. It will take both time and money to eliminate this educational discrimination, but lowering the standard for entrance and setting up students for potential failure at the high level of achievement required in these schools is not the answer.
22
@Barry H. Levy why do you blame the schools?
1
“'We aren’t dealing with the generational trauma of slavery, Jim Crow and redlining,' said Ms. Ahmad, noting that her father is a taxi driver and her family is far from wealthy. Still, she said, 'People discount the fact that we have more resources, we are more privileged, and because of that, white Americans tend to hold us up as a model minority.'”
I really like this comment by Sidra Ahmad, and I'd like to think that a lot of other Asian-Americans are as self-aware as she comes across in this article. In my experience, Asian-Americans who grow up in extremely privileged circumstances (think of "Tiger Mother" Amy Chua, who grew up the daughter of a tenured university professor) tend to become obsessed with race and ethnicity as the be-all of explaining everything. But Asian-Americans like Ms. Ahmad who grow up in comfortable but not extremely privileged circumstances tend to think a lot more about class and socioeconomic background.
Privileged Asian-Americans (e.g. the children of doctors, engineers, tenured university professors, etc.) who are known for thinking that rejection by Harvard is the end of their world are often taken to be representative of all Asian-Americans, but they should not be.
6
John Liu is right about one thing, why should we New Yorkers be tricked into believe access to specialized high schools is a zero sum game? Why not build more specialized high schools?
I also frankly am offended by Ms. Tan's comment "Creaming of the crop harms schools and neighborhoods,” she said. “It pushes kids to say, ‘I can get out of this neighborhood, I don’t have to give back"
First of all, many specialized high school alumni I know contribute back to their communities through volunteering, teaching and public service.
Second, bright kids are not meant to be stuck in low quality schools to squander their talent and ability, we need to identify every bright student and let them achieve their potential. I've seen schools where precocious children are not given intellectually stimulating material and are used by teachers to serve as unpaid teaching assistants at the cost of their own intellectual development.
9
This is similar system to Texas for entry to UT Austin and is quite fair(er) shot for all geographic/income brackets. UT quality is not diminished by this.
But honestly, in the end, all kids should have access to the same education. It is a crime not to do so.
4
@M Thanks for your comment - de Blasio's plan is indeed based on the UT Austin top ten percent model. Here's some additional information from the city about how the system would work: "Top performers would also need to be in the top 25 percent of 8th-grade students citywide for eligibility. We would maintain the remaining ~5-10% of seats for non-public students, students new to NYC, and any other public student excluded from the top-performer pool with a minimum grade point average. These students could opt into a lottery for the remaining offers."
@Eliza Shapiro
Is there anything in the proposed bill that prevents the NYC Department of Education from changing the weight of middle school GPA from 55% vs 45% for state test scores on the new system (what they said they will do initially) to 90% for middle school GPA?
@Nicholas - under the changes stated in the bill - the Chancellor is allowed to make changes as he sees fit.
As someone who has worked in test prep with some major companies for nearly thirty years--and helped to write the SHSAT curriculum at it--I absolutely agree that the way to go is to give the underprivileged students at many NYC middle schools the same type of test prep that many of the students who do make it take advantage of.
But it has to be the proper type of test prep. The NYC Department of Education has had SHSAT test prep courses for many years in many middle schools, but in terms of curriculum and technique it is vastly inferior to what is taught by good test prep companies. These companies know that a large part of their curriculum should include not only academic content but specific techniques and approaches that take advantage of the format and structure of the test, and that is what they provide, and what savvy parents pay for.
If the NYC Department of Education wants to narrow the ethnic/racial discrepancies in SHSAT admissions, it should absolutely be picking the brains of these companies, and adapting their curricula. I am certainly willing to tell them what I know is effective--and for free. But I bet that would take overcoming a lot of institutional inertia in the higher precincts of the department.
6
@Glenn Ribotsky it's not the curriculum and elite schools are not set up to give remedial classes. do you know the state of ny curves the regents tests so that a 35% test score is a passing grade?
1
@AK
Yes, I'm quite aware of how curved Regents exams are.
But that's not the point--believe me, I have taught and tutored many hundreds of students for the SHSAT--those students who eventually make it to the specialized high schools through good test prep don't necessarily start out any better prepared, or any more academically advanced, for the most part, than those students who don't get that prep. Good prep and practice make all the difference in the world.
1
There are many middle schools in NYC where not a single kid passes the state proficiency test. There are other schools were the majority of kids pass.
Not surprisingly, very few of the kids who don't pass state proficiency tests get into the tested high schools, like Stuyvesant, under the current plan.
Many more students get in from the schools were many pass the proficiency tests.
Under the mayor's new plan, there would be kids from schools where few if any pass the proficiency test getting in. And only a few from the schools were many would qualify.
The difference? Under the new plan, many more black and Hispanic students would be admitted, and many fewer Asian students.
A school made up of kids who all passed the proficiency test and then went on to pass the single entrance exam everyone takes is what you have now.
What you'd get with the mayor's proposed plan is anything but that. It's a terrible idea.
19
While I don't propose a solution to the admissions debate I do have a view on an environment I believe is not good for kids. I've had some exposure to Chinese teenagers in a mentorship organization I volunteer with. This is an exceedingly high-achieving group but at what price? The kids attend after-school programs to prepare for not just the Test but also for SATs starting in 4th grade. They are constantly under intense pressure and any grade lower than an A or less-than-perfect SAT scores is cause for shame and fear of disappointing parents. Only Ivy League schools are acceptable choices. While many propose leveling the special entrance schools' playing field by providing the same test prep to underrepresented minorities I see the toll this mindset takes on kids. Rather than emulate and reward this culture we should find ways to combat it.
11
@Judy
I am not Asian and grew up with that same culture of 'ivy at all costs'. Academic achievement in my extreme childhood poverty was my only source of self worth and pride.
I was also in wonderful physical shape, yet no teams or sports were available to me as I was the wrong gender and race.
Ambition is not criticized when an athlete goes to extreme lengths. the only negative aspect to academic ambition is that later in life merit is subverted. If you want to mitigate academic stress then we need more opportunities for academic merit to be recognized and valued, not less at a younger age.
6
@Judy yes, stop them from studying
1
@Judy, so, in other words, let kids be kids who then become mediocre adults. Okay, sounds like a plan!
2
Attending an outside, paid Test prep course should not be banned for test takers and those teaching it should require a license (which should not be granted). Test prep should be only be offered at school for free and online for free. Test prep is expensive and only teaches strategy to take get a high score on a test. If you want to even the playing field, even it. Colleges should think about it as well.
3
I've not heard any mention of the inevitability of a high drop out rate when students underperform because they're not prepared. Will there be a change in grading or the course material covered to make up for that? What's the next step? Are these"rich" Asians underperforming in the schools because they only prepared for the test? Fix the problem below High School. Prepare kids by offering subsidized prep so they will be prepared for more than the tests but the classes to come. A Stuyvesant graduate from before there were girls and didn't know there were prep courses to take either.
13
@Richard G
They already have ample test prep. (prep for prep etc.)
A big thank you for pointing out the obvious- if the children are performing well in school then the admissions test system is working.
Who are the adults saying their gender or race is 'wrong'?
2
@Richard G -------->the inevitability of a high drop out rate when students underperform because they're not prepared<--------
The "powers that be" will use the high drop out rate to "prove" that the schools are "racist" and/or "sexist". Competence should be the only criterion.
3
Having the entrance be based solely on a single test is lazy at best. It is not indicative of actual intelligence. Life is not full of problems that can be solved by having 6 months of practice prior to encountering them. I'm an engineer who went to school with and work with many Asians who did a lot of brute force studying and got great high school grades. University and the workplace separated these people out along the same lines as everyone else as their actual intelligence came into play. Some remained high achievers, many did not. A lot of Asian parents also have to get over this notion that their kids are failures if they don't go to the best schools in the country. It's unhealthy at best for them and their kids.
4
@Eric, so how else does one measure intellectual capacity besides a test? Do you have a "spidey sense" or some other kind of gut-related metric?
2
If parents want to ensure they get their children into the very best NYC high schools under this new admissions criteria, then perhaps they might bus or otherwise deliver their children to other middle schools that have historically low rates for sending students to these elite high schools.
Mayor Bill de Blasio's new public policy would seem to incentivize middle school integration driven by the enlightened self-interest of parents who would like to get their children into those high-end high schools.
Perhaps this will be an easier solution for the students who would otherwise endure all that prolonged test-prep drudgery and stress that defines the current method for successful matriculation.
Speaking for my family, we homeschooled our children through the eighth grade in a rurally isolated and generationally impoverished region, and while that is not exactly like bussing our kids to underperforming schools in NYC to give them a leg up on admissions to high school, it did give them an extraordinary education (thanks Mom!) that has rolled out the red carpet to the very best boarding schools 3,000 miles away.
The moral of the story as I see it is: privilege allows parents such as myself to prioritize our children's education, and that privilege gives them a substantial leg up the ladder of success. There are not any inherent qualities underprivileged kids possess that necessarily keep them from matriculating to the best high schools. The mayor is parenting writ large.
1
@Chris -- I'd like to point out that by incentivizing test-prep parents to send their children to elementary and middle schools that historically have few students who matriculate to the elite high schools mentioned in this article, they will most certainly influence and impact the elementary and middle schools' performance, raising the quality of education for all the students.
Instead of driving test prep into their kids' brains, driving them across town to the underperforming schools will not only position their kids to get into the best high schools, these parents will also demand more from the teachers and institutions that are otherwise failing the students. Never, not ever, should the blame for underperforming schools be placed on the children, it is always 100% the result of underperforming adults!
1
@Chris
NYC elite HS grad here. Never had a day of test prep.
Tests, my parents taught me, are for assessment. Test prep is counter intuitive.
"Test prep culture" is like claiming every Olympic athlete is on steroids. Some children are truly exceptional, that is the point. We also have specialized music and dance schools, must we insist they take students who can't hum a tune?
5
The scientific evidence (published in Brookings, and also from Paul Krugman) very clearly indicates that gifted kids who do not attend the "elite" high schools do just as well in life as equally gifted kids who do attend the "elite" high schools.
"elite" school grads do well in life
because they are gifted, and not because they attended the "elite" schools.
Clearly, from the evidence, failure to be admitted to the "elite" high schools does not hold you back if you are gifted.
This raises the question of the whole purpose of these "elite" schools.
The City should focus on improving the education of all of its students, and not just on the limited number of gifted students who attend these "elite" schools.
10
@David A gifted kid assigned to a "regular" NYC high school--with a lot of kids at who didn't get beyond level 1 of the proficiecy tests in middle school--is going to be a kid not going to that school if his parents can move or pay private school tuotion.
12
@Talbot
I would refer you studies available on the Brookings Institution website showing that gifted kids who just barely fail to be admitted to the elite schools wind up attending the same top colleges as the gifted kids who are admitted and attend the elite high schools. Gifted kids also do extremely well even when they fail to be admitted to the elite schools.
Most can't afford private schools or move out of the City.
James Madison High School, for example, not an elite high school, has among their alumni many Nobel Prize winners, 3 U.S. Senators, a Supreme Court Justice, and a huge number of highly distinguished alumni.
City University of NY has many more Nobel Prize winners and other distinguished alumni, such as Jonas Salk, than many of the most expensive colleges and universities.
Gifted and motivated kids generally do very well in life. The elite school debate is a political red herring.
There is no evidence of course that a kid not gifted nor motivated would gain from attendance at an elite school.
I'm Asian-American and graduated from Bronx Science in the mid 2000's.
The joke that test prep was the key to admissions isn't the whole story, but it is certainly a major factor in why Asian-Americans dominate the entrance exam. It's a standardized test that can be practiced by anyone so long as they have the foundation, which many inner-city public schools do not. Underprivileged minorities also tend to have parents who lack the understanding that test prep is critical to getting in.
At the end of the day, I think it's more imperative that K-8 public schools get better and free/sponsored test prep is available to those who cannot afford it. A racial quota pits minorities against each other (this top-7% plan would effectively cut Asian student population at these schools in half while keeping white student population the same). We need to provide equality of opportunity, not force equality of outcome (which isn't equality at all).
231
@ZZ Cutting the Asian student population at Stuyvesant in half would still result in Asian students being wildly disproportionately represented. Last year, Asian students made up over 72% of the student population at Stuyvesant, while Asian students made up only 17% of the citywide public school student population.
I expect a graduate of Bronx Science to understand how the use of statistics can frame an argument. If you cut the proportion of Asian students in half, they would still be represented at over double their demographic proportion.
8
@Gemma Seymour You commented "they would still be represented at over double their demographic proportion."
Are you saying they should be represented in line with their representation of the population which is 15%?
You do know a policy which strives for proportional representation by race is a thinly veiled racial quota right?
25
Test prep is a for profit business. Frankly I don't see how could African American or hispanic communities could be lack of test prep centers if there is demand for it. Asian nail salons are everywhere.
4
(future test question)
A.“...what people are missing when they say we are being punished, what they are neglecting to see is, the Asian-American community by and large has a lot of privilege that the black and Latinx community does not...
B.“...The way de Blasio rolled this out, he turned it in a zero-sum race based on race...That’s an absolute nonstarter from the get-go...The mayor...pitted people against each other....
C.“...Just because we’ve gamed the system, does that mean we’re in the right?...The folks at the bottom fight for scraps...But...white families have it figured out...
D.“...The school is defined by the way students are selected...If you change that, you change it all...
Select the best answer:
(a) All of these statements are facts
(b) Two of these statements are fact, and two are assertions
(c) An alt-reality based on the two stipulated assertions is as moral as a reality based on the two stipulated facts
(d) An alt-reality based on the two stipulated assertions is more moral than a reality based on the two stipulated facts
(e) a,b,c, or d – depending on the identity-demographic and GPA of the test-taker
10
Of course it's racist. Followed to it's natural conclusion, it gets even worse.
Before California passed Prop. 187 banning racial preferences in college admissions, Korean and Filipino groups were trying to get the Japanese de-certified as an Asian minority, because they scooped up the lion's share of the Asian quota to top schools.
Diversity quotas simply exacerbate the Balkanization of our society, and are bad for the nation in the long run.
72
The NYT has been banging this drum for years; it is far from a neutral party in this debate. Forgive me if I do not believe the NYT when it says the Asian Community is "torn" on this issue, based on interviews with *8* Alumni and the well to do opinion writers trotted out every few months. An exam that cannot be "gamed", only prepared for, is an effective method for gathering together students that through hard work, dedication, intelligence and a bit of luck will form a cohort of students that will raise each other up to out do themselves even more. These are values that NYC should encourage not denigrate.
Contrary to what is asserted in this article, Asian Americans are not "privileged". Indeed, they are the poorest ethnic group in this city. For the mayor to assert that the exam is unfair because there are too few Blacks and Hispanics and to many Asians is patently racist and on its face should be grounds for this bill to be scrapped. Imagine the outcry if the Mayor made the comments he has about any other ethnic group. We should not scrap a system that works, and has for decades, based on the political calculus of a failed Mayor desperately seeking employment after 2021. The exam is fair and should remain the only criteria for admission to these schools.
205
@B If you believe that this is a system that works, then you believe that black and latinx students are less talented and capable than asian and white students. It's logically impossible to believe that this system is fair and that talent is equally distributed across all racial groups in the city.
2
@B
Thank you. All of this money and grief could be spent creating more specialized public chools.
9
@herm, the system works if the objective is to create an environment that is conducive to enabling students to excel academically. The system works because it is open to anyone who works for it and passes the entrance exam.
7
Maybe instead of eliminating a test to determine admission de Blaiso should put more resources into less competitive communities instead of punishing the communities of hard working immigrants who have sacrificed everything so their children can make it in America.
50
There are public middle schools in NYC where 5.3% of the students are proficient in math and language arts. If you take even the top 5-10% of this school and grant them admission to a specialized high school, what will happen to the level of academic excellence at those schools? You cannot address racial inequality by simply opening the doors to elite high schools; the atrocious pre-school, elementary and middle school educations many students receive must be reformed first.
https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2018/09/27/see-which-new-york-city-schools-posted-the-highest-and-lowest-2018-test-scores/
123
@Anjou Thank you for this! Very enlightening. The absolute dominance of Success Academy in the Mathematics ranking has me gobsmacked! I think any parent with children in NYC public schools knows that elementary schools generally range from ok to excellent, then it all falls apart in middle school where the average quality just falls of a cliff. If the mayor was honest in his desire to improve educational outcomes for all, I think he would speak to the nearest parent to make him aware of this fact.
9
When considering the Mayor's plan, please recall that the DeBlasio Administration sat on a study supporting the specialized high school admissions process for 3 years until they were finally forced to release it because of a FOIA request from the New York Times. (link below)
That is not how democracy is supposed to work.
https://chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2018/08/03/new-york-city-released-its-study-of-the-shsat-heres-why-it-wont-end-the-admissions-debate/
26
“These words are too harsh. It makes me feel like I’m a bad person.”
This is what I want everyone to understand. If you hear a real criticism rooted in justice, and you are worried about your own feelings first and foremost, you ARE a bad person! But you're not bad because you have some privilege.
2
Identity politics is a zero sum game. I think the idea of the top five students from each middle school in the city is absolutely the best way to lift the entire system. The test prep industry should be illegal.
31
@T We should also pick the best 5 players from every university and high school and send them to the NBA regardless of actual skills and which division the schools are in. You know how segregated the NBA is.
30
@Father Of Two
Education is not the NBA. I think you think it would be best if the NBA had a 3 hour "audition" in which every college basketball player demonstrates their skills for a group of judges and is graded on their performance during those 3 hours and they are assigned to teams based on their audition score during those 3 hours. One shot and nothing else the players did during college matters except that 3 hour audition score.
Is that what you think would make for better NBA basketball teams?
2
De Blasio is merely pandering to a greater number of voters when he does this. He has not and frankly cannot improve the public schools within the city at all (despite an increase in the number and percentage of high school graduates within the city system, how many actually graduate with a Regents diploma, a basic measure of literacy and proficiency? Sadly, very few), thus he can try to screw up a few schools that actually work in the name of fairness. Try improving neighborhood schools before screwing up the ones that actually work.
77
Nothing but nonsense racial balancing, just because De Blasio depends more on the black vote than the Asian American vote. Disgraceful. Hope another school steps up to fill Stuyvesant's place after focusing on racial percentages instead of merit brings its performance down.
66
Intellectual aptitude is not distributed equally. In the 1960's and 1970's, this did not matter much, because a strong back was the main requirement for relatively high-paying factory work. But it's unavoidable now that people work with their brains. Civil-rights religion, which treats statistical disparity as discrimination, has to be updated to face this fact. Including children who are years behind academically will destroy the special schools.
27
@Amanda Just to make sure we're clear: you're suggesting that black and latinx students in general do not have the same intellectual aptitude as white and asian students? Or just the ones in NYC?
1
"“I think what people are missing when they say we are being punished, what they are neglecting to see is, the Asian-American community by and large has a lot of privilege that the black and Latinx community does not,”
Bingo.
1
@Scott D, um, what privilege? Asian Americans still have virtually no mainstream visibility, no political clout, and vast under-representation among the executive ranks at Fortune 500 companies, despite the fact that they are over-represented as worker bees at the same companies. And the inconvenient truth is that Asians still exist at the margins of society and are by and large invisible (e.g., "diversity" only engages black and brown people). If all of this is "privilege," please let me be underprivileged.
5
Here’s what I don’t understand:
If Alow income are killing the exams and entering these schools in disproportionate numbers because their parents do everything to give them test prep, why doesn’t the city keep the current system in place but offer free test prep to all low income students in the city.
Meaning, if we understand the secret to Asian success in this area, wouldn’t it make sense to copy that success rather than dumb down a system which has produced so many Nobel laureates?
57
@Cass
Di Blasio did institute free test prep a few years back; it didn't significantly increase the number of students of color admitted. Of course, I doubt the level of intensity of this free test prep was not the same as the expensive test prep some students have the advantage of receiving.
On the other hand, I studied for two weeks for the SHSAT with a test prep book I borrowed from the library and got into Stuyvesant. It's not all about money.
42
@Anjou Yep - the city has tried various free test prep programs that have not moved the needle. In fact, this year's freshman classes at some of the specialized high schools included even fewer black and Hispanic students than previous years. Some students who have participated in those free test prep programs said they were disappointing and they didn't learn as much as they expected to or as much as their peers who could afford test prep did.
6
@Eliza Shapiro
Eliza, see my comment (when it gets posted). What you've said here is very much the case. The Department of Education courses/curriculum is vastly inferior to what test prep companies have developed over the years.
2
Don't fix the admission test to good high schools, turn the vast majority of mediocre elementary, middle and high schools into good schools. Of course, De Blasio and Carranza will take the path of least resistance.
37
It seems DeBlasio's approach is, if it ain't broke, pretend it is so you can break it.
Come to think of it, the Yiddish word, farpotshket, which means "broken, because someone tried to fix it" might soon apply.
I'm a Brooklyn Tech graduate (class of 1964). On the first day of class, the principal instructed us to look at the students to our left and right. Then he casually mentioned that one out of three of us would not be graduating from the school.
Given the new approach to reality, I'm guessing the one third of students who didn't graduate from Tech should be suing for being prejudiced against.
27
The chancellor last year said, “I just don’t buy into the narrative that any one ethnic group owns admission to these schools.” Mr. Liu said it was a comment “that nobody will forget or forgive him for.”
And nobody should.
110
For many of these Asian students, parents have paid a lot of money for test prep to help their children pass the test. Why doesn't the City offer the same advantages to deserving Black and latino students? Financing test prep for these students would give them an edge and a chance to enter an elite school on their own merits.
65
@AV
That would make too much sense.
12
It is misguided to assume it is all about test prep.
15
@AV The city does have a free test prep program that runs through the summer and fall up to the test date. I could be wrong about this part, but I believe it was offered to seventh grade students (going into eighth grade) based on their state test results. The program does help some students gain admission to a specialized high school.
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If the mayor is successful these schools will no longer be "elite." The reason they are "elite" is because of the students that graduate and attend great universities and go on to lead successful lives.
The other schools in the city could be better if they had quality teachers that ran their classrooms properly. Allowing students to routinely upset the class with no punishment only leads to failure. Coddling students never works.
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@Donald What most people don't understand about NYC's elite schools and similar ones in other cities, is that it's not about how good the teachers are - there are good ones, bad ones and mediocre ones in ALL schools. Instead, it's about the critical mass of very bright, highly motivated students who encourage one another to be all they are capable of being. That critical mass is the key to their "magic".
I find it interesting that these alums who appear to support de Blasio did not attend particularly prestigious universities themselves. Were they not at the top of the class at their elite high schools? Where are the alums who went onto highly competitive universities? What do they think?
Most students who go to such high schools have been working toward this since elementary school. They have done so, not just because their parents have "pushed" them to do so, but because they are very bright and very motivated. Their parents are not wealthy - they scrimp ad save to send their children to community based prep classes, not some super-expensive version of the SAT prep classes offered to the very wealthy.
In the end, it's still about how motivated the student is to study in those prep classes. When my eldest grandson was a junior, he decided to do one of the free online SAT prep courses for the PSAT. He was so motivated that his mother had to be sure he was not still doing practice tests at 2AM!
Motivation and intelligence are what matters here.
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@Donald
I totally agree it is about "critical mass" of superior, motivated students.
6
Whatever the flaws of the SHSAT, it is open to EVERY eighth grader in NYC attending, public, private, or parochial schools. The DeBlasio/Carranza plan, on the other hand, mechanically excludes 93% of eighth graders in NYC public schools from even applying to the specialized high schools. It is even more exclusionary toward parochial and private school students who want to apply to the specialized schools. I attended a parochial elementary school from which many, many students went on to the specialized high schools. The DeBlasio/Carranza plan is patently unfair and undemocratic and is not likely to survive the lawsuits in preparation against it, should it go into effect. It is an even greater abomination considering that the specialized high schools were once much more diverse than they are today. Many tracking and honors programs in black and Hispanic neighborhoods were eliminated in the 1990s. Restoring these programs and giving them serious funding is the right way to diversify the specialized schools. The exclusionary and likely illegal 7% plan is exactly the wrong way to go. NYT coverage of this issue has been disappointing at best and disgracefully one-sided at worst.
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What’s funny is that if DeBlasio is successful you are going to see a lot more integration in public schools they will just be primarily middle schools in gentrified neighborhoods. Whereas affluent families moving in to bed Stuy and Brownsville might otherwise have sent their children to private schools, they will now send them to underperforming public schools for a year to ensure there child’s chances of getting selected to an elite high school. There will always be ways to game the system.
Let’s not talk about the fact that the top ten percent in the worst middle school in the city will be woefully underprepared to keep up at an elite highschool. Eliminating a test that equalizes entry is setting kids up to failure and keeping qualified students out. Plain and simple.
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@Mat. I agree with Mat. Asians are a resourceful group. Once they under how the system works, they will just move (or rent a place without moving) to less competitive school districts. I predict that within 5 years, if the plan proceeds, there will be an even higher percentage of Asians in the elite high schools than there are today.
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I went to Clark JHS at 149st in the Bronx. My teachers nor guidance counselors ever mentioned going to a specialized high school, not till I was older did I hear about these schools and tests. My nephew who recently graduated stated his counselors told him those schools were not for him. He went to standard high school and graduated from St Johns.
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@Owen Hi Owen - your comment speaks to one of the biggest issues in this debate: the huge gaps in information about the existence of the schools and how to get in between families in different parts of the city. There's no question that some students are groomed for the test and the schools from an early age, and others learn about it when a guidance counselor or a teacher recommends they sit for the test or enter the Discovery program.
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@Eliza Shapiro Why not just give the test to everyone in middle school, then?
2
These voices are interesting and eloquent. I'd love to hear from current students at the specialized high schools as well.
I've been struck from the beginning of this debate by how weak the mayor's position is. Had he done some preliminary outreach to the Asian and immigrant community, had he contextualized proposed changes with substantive changes in other parts of the school system, he might have avoided such bitter, angry debate.
Among other areas I'd like to see him address: single test admission to the G&T program at age four! The G&T and programs at the elementary level are heavily enrolled with white and Asian students. Many families spend money to prep their children for the test.
I'd also like to hear from the mayor and chancellor about academic excellence in general. They seem never to discuss such things, beyond vague references to AP for all. No wonder many families--especially those from immigrant communities who may lack other resources--prefer to stay with the tried and true, i.e. the specialized high schools.
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@aging New Yorker Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I've heard over and over from specialized high school alumni and integration advocates that they want the mayor to come up with a broader integration plan that is not limited to the specialized high schools, which enroll a small percentage of the city's public high school population. The mayor has not announced any plans that would change how screened schools or gifted and talented programs admit students.
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@Eliza Shapiro -- From my comment on this article:
"Mayor Bill de Blasio's new public policy would seem to incentivize middle school integration driven by the enlightened self-interest of parents who would like to get their children into those high-end high schools.
Perhaps this will be an easier solution for the students who would otherwise endure all that prolonged test-prep drudgery and stress that defines the current method for successful matriculation."
@aging New Yorker
Funny. We just took our 4 year old in for that G&T test. We prepped a little with the DOE handbook about it one can get at the library, etc. We just wanted him to have some idea of what was going on. We agree it seems way too early. So many developmental differences, for starters, amongst the 4 year olds we know, hard to say where a kid will be in just a couple years. We were mostly just happy he didn't run around the aisles of the auditorium / waiting area too much. Anecdotally, we have heard the G&T "programs" for the earliest years (so starting in kindergarten) are really just the same curriculum, same classrooms, same teachers but with perhaps a little room for improv or moving a little faster.
2
Considering the anecdotes I overhear from various teens (most of whom are not at Stuyvesant), I decided I was glad my kid was not successful on the Test as it seems there's quite a reputation for drugs there. Lots seem to be the taking-Adderall-to-improve-performance type, but, I hear there's plenty of others, too.
1
the issue is not with the high schools; the issue is at the elementary and middle school levels. if the fundamentals taught to younger kids were improved across the board, the quality of all of the high schools would rise. if however you're putting quota children, however bright, into an elite program for which they have not received the proper preparatory training one of two things happens: those kids wash out or the elite program is no longer elite. how much do you want to bet our schools will get the latter, and that would be a tragedy.
you have to fix the lower schools first, ALL of them.
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I have to wonder whether the mayor's plan is treating a symptom. Surely test prep is unfair, in that some families just can't afford it, and maybe others don't have a "culture" that emphasises study over recreation (both are healthful). Still, I suspect that what's needed is improvement in the education provided by the public schools (and maybe modification of the admission test so it doesn't rely so much on specialized test prep). That's obviously a big problem, and one without easy solutions. I don't think that a quota system that will admit students to the elite high schools when they are not prepared to do the work there will accomplish much.
4
If mayor’s misguided plan to eliminate merit based selection is is approved he would have created a huge market for Charter High Schools at the High School level. There will be a mass migration of teachers and students of all races who crave merit based selection and the erstwhile great High Schools of N.Y. will just be remembered as buildings.
10
If the true villain is cast as the predatory prep courses who provide some students with an advance over others, shouldn't the solution be to provide FREE prep courses free of charge to ALL students who want to take the exam?
It seems like the Mayor's proposal, like much of what comes out of his administration, is a problematic solution to a complicated problem.
The point is to give all students a fair and equitable shot at performing well on the exam. That doesn't mean deliberately disadvantaging an entire ethnic group. If Carnegie Hall wanted to bring more instruments into its orchestra it buys more seating, it doesn't tell the cello and the base to take a hike because they're not diverse enough
I fail to see how this plan could possibly work and I hope the state legislature has the good sense to see this too.
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If the mayor's plan goes through,Stuyvesant, for example, will likely go from a school whose student body has a close to 1500 average SAT score to a school with an average SAT score of 1200 (or something thereabouts). It will undoubtedly be a solid school but no longer a stepping stone to an elite school. I don't see the point of creating a separate set of solid, but ultimately middling, high schools. Save the money and put it back into the districts that really need it.
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@JA Hi there! There's some useful data on this that was just released by the Independent Budget Office, which mapped out how this year's student body would have been different if they were admitted under the mayor's top 7 percent proposal. From the report: "Students offered admissions would have had slightly higher grades on average than those who
entered the specialized high schools in 2017-2018. But scores on the state’s English Language
Arts and especially math tests were higher among the ninth graders who attended the specialized
high schools last year than the scores of those who would have received offers under the
proposed admissions plan." More here: https://ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/admissions-overhaul-simulating-the-outcome-under-the-mayors-plan-for-admissions-to-the-citys-specialized-high-schools-jan-2019.pdf
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@Eliza Shapiro This is a very useful post. Thanks for sharing it.
@Eliza Shapiro Thank you for the referral. I'll take a look. My initial reaction is that an increase of grades has likely only a weak correlation with the strength of a student body given that what it takes to earn an A in one place may net you a D or F at another school. Thus, even if the mayor's plan would increase the grades of those attending the specialized schools, that doesn't mean that the schools won't effectively be fairly mediocre.
There's no solution that will make everyone happy. If they're just going to fill the specialized schools with good students from struggling school districts, who are, despite strong grades, one or two standard deviations behind the strongest students, I'd rather they just re-allocate their money and maybe build out the gifted and talented programs in poor, urban school districts.
13
Exams aren't biased. They don't know color or national origin. That nowadays Asian kids are overwhelmingly excelling in the entrance exams and getting admitted in high numbers to these schools just means that they have worked hard and are smart. To penalize them by denying them a place that they deserve in order to fill those spots with children of color, Hispanics etc in order to achieve whatever numbers de Blasio's administration has arbitrarily decided to achieve is criminal. It's also terribly unfair to admit kids who aren't prepared to do the work at these schools. What's next: remedial math at Stuyvesant?
Many of the Asian kids don't come from wealthy families. Many come from immigrant families. Their parents prioritize education though and that makes a huge difference.
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Maybe the best idea is for SHSAT to still administer the test, and then weed out the kids who over-studied for years (as they clearly must be dim and undeserving) by rejecting more Asians!
Oh please - show me a culture that doesn't value status. These enormous generalizations are honestly pretty insulting. It demonstrates another problem: the pervasive view of Asian children as meek, overworked little robots marching towards Ivy League degrees. I would advise really getting to know some Asian-American people, rather than gossiping about your children's classmates.
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@Emily To keep things in context, 2 out of every 3 Asian students who took the SHSAT in 2017 did not get an specialized high school offer if I recall correctly but over 60% off all Asian 8th graders choose to take the SHSAT each year according to IBO data while only 20% of Latinx students do.
It's not that Asian students are overworked, it's that they lack educational options. Almost half of all NYC students who are white opt out of the public school system. There are few or no Prep for Prep type scholarships for poor Asian students are there are for talented black and Hispanic students. Schools like the Beacon School which use multi-factor admissions (grades, recommendations, attendance, state exams, etc.) have 9% Asian representation while Asian students are 15% of the NYC public school system.
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@Emily
When I grew up among the uncultured rabble of California, Oregon, and Idaho, we just had public schools. You attended the school that was close to you.
Same thing applied to my Asian-American wife. We both went on to earn a PhD.
The solution is to invest enough money to ensure that all schools provide quality education.
And, you know what? Out here in the sticks, we don't value status quite as much as do the folks elsewhere in the country.
And, yeah, Greenie assumes a little too much (and therefore makes a you know what out of you and me).
6
These schools aren't segregated, they are merit based.
I'd much rather provide need based scholarships for test prep cost, including transportation, and keep the test. That approach would take into account individual students and their family's commitment to education.
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@vs72356
That makes too much sense. Why would you want to implement a rational policy that carefully examines and acts on the data when you can dump the entire apple cart and socially engineer our way to disaster.
29
@vs72356 De Blasio knows that if he provides need-based scholarship based on economics, that wouldn't solve the problem, because Asians are actually the poorest ethnic group in the city. He also knows that pouring millions even billions of dollars into improving elementary and middle schools dominated by blacks and Hispanics won't solve the problem either.
The big elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about is that Asians will academically outperform blacks and Hispanics at every academic level, in any school, in any place in the world, no matter if the Asians are economically poorer/have less educated parents. Many scholars believe this is due to a significant difference in average IQ, which is largely genetic and which no amount of money or education or changes in public policy could overcome on a large scale. Therefore, the only way to have a "racially balanced" population is to rig the admissions criteria so that's not based on academic merit. De Blasio et al know this, which is why he needs to push his plan.
9
I went to Hunter and have seen a lot of back and forth about this on Hunter Alumni pages. I support this plan, both as a way to make the city's specialized high schools more diverse and as a way to break the predatory hold that private tutors and test prep companies have on 11 year olds and their families in this city. There is no denying that Asian and Asian-American New Yorkers face discrimination, but it is also just plain statistically true that they and white students are overrepresented in the city's specialized high schools.
I agree that a broader plan for integration is important but I think people often hold that up as a straw man or a way to sound progressive while basically advocating for the status quo, because it sidetracks the immediate question of how to at least make the specialized high schools more reflective of the public school population.
6
I, too, am appalled that there are so few African-American students at Stuyvesant. Ditto Harvard. Given that elite schools demand that entering students demonstrate certain superior academic skills, it is incumbent upon teachers and parents to push children to achieve the highest scores they are capable of. That’s what “tiger moms” (and dad’s) do. It’s not about the money parents pay for test prep; it’s about the effort. Incidentally, SHSAT workbooks for sale abound. Same goes for SAT, ACT. Free or low cost test prep classes are available. The time to start working hard for the SHSAT is about 9 months before test date; the time to start SAT or ACT prep is about grade 9.
I’m concerned that, many times, we use race to level playing fields in education. In reading history, I found that white Californians in the 1850s deplored Chinese students’ always being at the top of the class in public schools. Interesting.
29
Exactly. It really comes down to effort. There will always be expensive options sold to those who can afford it, but in this modern age it's not necessary at all. There is so much free study material for any standardized test available for free on the internet and in libraries, not to mention second hand.
7
It's one thing to ask graduates who have, it appears, gone to fairly prestigious colleges what they think about the mayor's plan and another to ask applicants what they think.
The perspectives are different if for no other reason than the former group has no real skin in the game.
The article would be better balanced if it asked a group of 8th graders what they thought of the policy change. After all, it's these kids who are going to be directly affected by the mayor's plan.
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@Orthodromic
I’m sorry, but 8th graders are children who understand little of the world and cannot be counted on to make rational decisions in this area.
6
@Orthodromic
The article would be a lot better if it interviewed parents who have children in middle school. If it did that, I wonder if Eliza Shapiro could have found any parents at all who support the 7% plan? It's odd that the perspective of parents with middle school children never makes it into the NYT articles on this subject.
6
I remember taking that entrance exam and scoring high enough for Brooklyn Tech but opted to attend Staten Island Tech out of convenience of the commute. I could not afford a test prep course, SITHS was considered "specialized" but did not require an exam to get in at the time I was a student (but has since I graduated in '02). I can't say I'm in favor of totally scraping the admissions test but I don't see why schools can't approach admissions more holistically. Not all children test well on a standardized exam but are excellent students and perform well in their school environments and individual subjects. Entrance exams certainly keep academic settings competitive and I am all for that, however, my class probably had a maximum of 10-15 minorities out of a 120 students and there were many times where the absence of a diverse community could make one feel isolated. I kind of wish they just kept it the way that it was when I was in middle school where your application was weighed on a number of factors, not just a number or ranking.
4
@sunzari I like and appreciate the sentiments you express. I hesitate to embrace the proposed solution, given the challenges of a) developing new criteria that will have detractors and flaws and b) adding more 'infrastructure' (read: people and costs) to address admissions without addressing educational content and outcomes.
Annie Tan has it right:
"Creaming of the crop harms schools and neighborhoods,” she said. “It pushes kids to say, ‘I can get out of this neighborhood, I don’t have to give back.’"
The mayor's plan is a blunt instrument, but that might be the only way to do it. Boston is struggling with this too, and I'm glad there are campaigns across the country on this issue.
If there is a concern that one group or another doesn't have social capital, then work on that rather than standardized test scores.
2
@Cousy
Yes, because standardized tests have limited usefulness. Even elite universities have increasingly understood this. Chicago went test-optional recently. I don't know about public NYC elementary/middle schools. In my state, they are a joke: social, emotional, political, and recreational agendas come first (oddly, more so in middle than in elementary); academics come last. Marry that with substandard literacy in the home, and inequality will flourish and multiply. To me, it's not a question of whether social engineering is a good thing; it's that it is:
Not. Possible.
Genes are distributed unevenly, meaning parentage, meaning those whose homes are essentially annexes of colleges will always be privileged.
Gifted and Talented of all races should be identified EARLY and put in boarding schools with intellectually privileged children so that those from substandard environments will benefit by proximity. It's intellectual privilege that makes possible increasing opportunity.
2