The Democratic Party needs to explain the conditions under which these rare terminations occur. Examples (without names) of the horrific fetal defects and deformities as well as health conditions that could afflict a pregnant woman should be clearly provided.
Many of us who have known women who had to terminate at this point understand these situations, but the general population is probably unaware.
34
Doesn't Pam Belluck realize the Democrats are proposing POST-term abortion? ie Murder.
How can someone be so ignorant?
7
If the term later-term abortion is a politicized phrase used by abortion opponents, why are the NYT writers using it as if its a valid descriptor (ie in the headline?) Why not put it in scare quotes or say "third-trimester abortion" or something else?
18
For religious zealots who oppose the right to abortion, the fertilization of an egg is a miracle. It is an act of God. This is the moment when God 'actualizes' his will.
Traditional cultures believed that pregnancy was 'miraculous', determined by the stars, the moon or the spirits of the forest. For modern dogmatic Christians, fertilization is part of God's plan. This is why any form of abortion is 'evil', as it goes against God's will. For them, this is not about the stage of development of the fetus, it is about imposing God's will upon the world.
That is why they are ready to deny science, to misrepresent the stages of development of the fetus, and to present any fetus as a sentient being worthy of our pity. They feel justified in lying and manipulating, because they are protecting God's will. Having a conversation with religious anti-abortion activists about this topic is near-impossible. They care about God and the 'miracle' of the moment of fertilization. They are protecting God's plan, while scientists are stuck in base material reality. While scientists approach this debate with rational evidence-based arguments, anti-abortion activists approach it with the rage and the verbal violence appropriate for a crusade. This is also why they feel entitled to use the law to violate the most basic rights of a woman to her body and her life. So long as they will see pregnancy as God's plan, we will all be stuck.
25
Shameful. 1.3 percent of what? The total is omitted and for very good reason. Guttmacher gives 926,000 or so abortions in 2014. 1.3 percent of 926,000. That makes about 12,000 late term abortions in 2014, or about 33 a day. That doesn't sound rare to me at all. As to fetal pain, starting your attempted rebuttal with 'this is complex' says it all. Dehumanizing and utterly barbaric.
10
Ok; wrong word no big deal. Call it murder because once a child is delivered that is what it is. We do not throw babies in the trash. As per the VA governor. Once a child is formed a child is formed. I am pro-choice but irresponsibility is taking a hold here. The soon to be dead child has right's.
6
It'd be an interesting (and deeply sad) revelation to uncover how many of trump's dalliances have ended in an abortion. I'd put the over/under at 5.
Point being that him, of all people, to feign outrage at pro-choice legislation is the height of hypocrisy. Then again, who's surprised?
33
Is it too much to ask of a leader of the most powerful nation in the world to actually know what he's talking about?
36
Oddly, he has no qualms about "ripping" already born children from the arms of parents seeking asylum. The pain is undeniable.
28
Clearly, there are a lot of people out there who believe there are women who would abort their pregnancies days before the due date as casually as they would discard gum they are tired of chewing. (An outlandish and insulting assumption on its own.)
Let's remember that doctors have taken the Hippocratic Oath, and recognize that NO doctor would actually perform an abortion days before a healthy baby can be delivered.
So pretend a woman is at the hospital, about to begin labor, and she decides she doesn't want a baby--and somehow she has found the one doctor on the planet who would agree to commit feticide on a perfectly viable baby. Does anyone ACTUALLY BELIEVE that she'd abort the baby--which, remember, is very painful--when she knows that she can give the baby up for adoption?
Seriously, people! Stop the hysterics. "Abort a baby minutes before birth"? Why even consider such a ridiculous and darn-near-impossible scenario, and use it to restrict a woman's reproductive rights?
52
What I don't understand is why there isn't a significant pushback from Democratic, ProChoice leaders on this blatant lie.
This is another Death Panel, Birther lie. This isn't the time to sit on our high horses and say no one will believe it. If these kinds of lies aren't strenuously countered, 40% will say they're true.
Accusing your enemy of killing babies is an ancient tactic. It's a drumbeat to war. Trump Republicans don't believe in a loyal opposition, we're the enemy.
Democratic leaders and Pro Choice advocates should be countering this with everything they have. They should be saying categorically that we don't approve or accept abortions in the 3rd trimester for any reason, nor do we approve or accept abortions past 24 weeks accept in cases of severe, fatal fetal abnormality or the mother's life is at risk.
Take the wind out of their sails, agree with them about ripping beautiful babies from the womb moments from birth and killing them.
They can't win on abortion of embryos, so they are going for the Big Lie. Trump said it during the State of the Union address. This is the issue they've used for 30 years as cover for their policies that have been destroying everyone but the 1%.
28
Science has saved more babies in the last 100 years than in 2,000 years of religious prayer. Science has saved more babies than God.
I'll even give you the occasional miracle on God's part that saves the baby. But whatever number of miracles may have occurred over the millennia, they did not put a dent in the infant mortality rate until medical science of the 20th century came along.
If you care about babies, you'd do better putting your faith in science than in God, statistically speaking. Just saying.
25
Trump is completely ignorant of science or reality so of course he got everything wrong about late-term abortion. Let women and their families decide about their healthcare decisions.
17
Why defend late term abortion against the likes of a mis-informed, serial prevaricator, misogynist like our President. The priority here is a Mother’s health and well being being paramount and not secondary to that of a fetus.
12
The vociferous minority that seeks to reproductively enslave women and girls, depriving them of their rights to Liberty and their rights under the 1st, 8th, ad 13th Amendments, lie consistently.
15
No doctor of any integrity is going to terminate an eight month pregnancy of a perfectly healthy, viable fetus just because the mother claims her mental health just can’t take giving birth to a baby right now-which is apparently what these crazy people are all up in arms about. That is ridiculous. At that point the mother would of course give birth and give the baby up for adoption. The fetus would have to be non viable and the mother’s life at stake for a “late term abortion”. But think about it. Any doctor who would be sleazy enough to “give his permission” for such a heinous thing probably wouldn’t let a little thing like a law stop him from terminating a pregnancy illegally in the first place.
20
The passage of these third trimester abortion bills by the Democratic legislation is not popular with most Americans. They are aghast that this is even being considered. Even pro choice people are opposed to this.
The Democrats are making a big mistake pushing for late term abortions when most people strongly disapprove. If they keep this up, it will hurt their chances for winning elections in 2020. This is the ace card for the Republican Party because most people are on their side and think late term abortion is evil and unnecessary. This is a hot button topic and it is not going away. The Republicans are winning this one and must continue to speak up for the unborn. This is one of most important campaign issues of our day.
5
The first president to be sued by a porn star while in office is now the spokesperson for the moral "majority".
Trump as well as this GOP House and Senate would face a stream of paternity lawsuits were they actually against abortions.
What officious and pretentious hypocrites. Time and time again, we've seen one, then another, GOP Representative or Senator who claims he's adamantly opposed to abortion arranging for the mistress who have one.
And although that point has been proven, they persist in this one-act play.
And with the other sides of their mouths they're opposed to healthcare reform act, claiming it's "government over-reach."
I wonder how these ostentatious hypocrites like Trump and his good old boys in the GOP deal with just one week's worth of the experiences of a woman.
11
I think only women should be involved in making this decision. When men are capable of carrying and delivering a baby, then they can have a say.
17
Medical emergencies that endanger the life of the mother used to be a standard concession from even the most unbending abortion opponents. Now, all of a sudden they’re imagining very pregnant women gleefully pulling the plug on the delivery table, and ignoring the facts. When did we lose control of this narrative?
20
How is the 'health of the woman' defined? Is it mental health where she will fell distress and be bothered by bringing the pregnancy to term? The pro-abortionists never specify this - thus the suspicion and opposition of many to late term abortions.
3
I terminated a pregnancy at almost 20 weeks after my twenty-week ultrasound and an amnio confirmed that my baby had trisomy 18 and a severe heart defect. There was no possibility that my baby would survive after birth, and it was very likely he would pass away before birth. The only decision I had was to choose when he would pass away. He was very much loved and wanted, and I would not wish this choice on my worst enemy. I do not regret the decision to end the pregnancy, but I rarely tell people that I chose to terminate, preferring to say that we lost him due to his severe birth defects. My situation is not rare, and the ability to choose abortion in this type of circumstance, even late term, should not depend on where you live.
I was able to have a compassionate medical team perform the abortion at a hospital, and I was able to keep my son's ashes. I do not believe that any doctors (and certainly not the doctor who performed my abortion) would agree to perform a late term abortion simply because a pregnant woman changed her mind, had depression, or was hoping for a baby of a different gender. These hyperboles draw attention away from the types of tragedies that lead women to choose late-term abortions.
57
Years ago we lost a fetus at 8 1/2 months because the mother's placenta was damaged in an auto accident at 3 months. The placenta was leaking embryonic fluid into the mother's body. Naturally that also starved the fetus of the environment it needed to be whole and healthy.
The doctor said everything was fine - until at 8 1/2 months he announced that "he was sorry but the fetus is dead".
The second doctor we went to said the fetus had been dead for at least 5 weeks and that the mother was lucky to be alive. He aborted the fetus that day.
We mourned the loss of the child we had looked forward to.
Do NOT talk to me about what The Con Don, the catholic church and anti-abortion proponents say their god wants.
Mine would have preferred a competent doctor and a much earlier abortion to prevent the kind of danger, pain and suffering the fetus and our family had to endure.
58
Zejee,
The state should not be making any decisions about late term abortion. I agree. Would you tell that to Governor Cuomo. He just passed the most liberal bill allowing third trimester abortions for any reason in New York State. So far there is not one Democratic leader or liberal who has called him out on this. He needs to be told he cannot make late term abortion decisions. He needs to know.
3
See that word, “allowing,” you used?
It means that the State takes no position, and allows the decision to be made by the woman and her doctor and, one may assume, by her family. Way this works is, “allowing,” people to decide is the opposit of telling them what to do.
13
He doesn't make the decision, it is woman and her doctor who does it, and it is how it should be
14
@WPLMMT This is a lie. The law allows abortions for women carrying an unviable pregnancy or when her life or health is in danger. Unfortunately, lies are what the so called prolifers use to push their extreme agenda.
My daughter has Stage 4 breast cancer. She could get pregnant and because of the medications she takes a fetus would most likely be unviable and she might not realize that she was pregnant for awhile because her periods are very irregular. The hormones of pregnancy would seriously endanger her life. But that doesn't matter to the pro maternal death crew. Your lies do matter to me and to her.
20
Don’t fall victim to Trumps lies. Late abortions are all about terribly serious health in the fetus or mother. Leave these decisions to women and their doctors.
33
What if a child has Down syndrome? That’s a serious health concern. Does it deserve to be allowed to be killed?
As I read the law, it permits the abortion of a viable fetus at any time if "NECESSARY TO PROTECT THE PATIENT'S LIFE OR HEALTH." (capitalized in the legislation.)
While it may not be the intent of the legislation, this certainly appears to make what Kermit Gosnell was convicted of now legal. All you have to do is make sure the fetus is killed before being removed and say the mother's mental health required it. (Perhaps she is distressed because it's a girl and not a boy.)
So while I agree that state legislatures should be enacting laws regarding abortion - and the Supreme Court shouldn't - they should be more careful with their language if they want to avoid criticism that they are supporting infanticide.
4
So, a woman who stressed out about the gender will wait until due day and then request the abortion? Really? Criticism is fine, but it should be at least reasonable.
22
It is impossible to avoid such accusations from people who cannot tell the simple diff between Gosnell and Cuomo.
4
It's easy to say you're anti-anything until it becomes a personal issue for either you or someone in your family.
My evangelical cousins were faced with this a few years ago -- 40+ yr old with a serious heart condition, unplanned pregnancy, no doctor in her rural part of the state willing to take on a patient in her condition. Couldn't locate a health care provider (OB plus cardiologist) until she was 5months.
They didn't call it an abortion, rather 'inducing labor.' The unborn had 2% chance of survival at full term, compared to 1% at 5 months. In the end, a stillbirth. Heartache all around.
These are terrible, horrible decisions for any family to make. The first opinion we have about it should be immersed in compassion.
211
@Terry
In the end the decision was allowed to be made privately between a mother, her provider and with support of family. The law also supported her decision making the procedure safe. This is the message so many miss when they develop their tunnel vision about abortion. It is never a simple process for those involved.
Thank you for sharing.
46
In cases where the mother's health or life is at stake, outlawing abortion in the later stages of pregnancy is using a body to preserve the life of another body. If you agree with this, would you agree to mandatory blood donations, bone marrow donations, kidney donations? It would save lives.
22
@Dali Dula
There is no "using" a body to preserve another body's life. The fetus isn't yet a separate human life. It's my fetus. If I prefer to live rather than die to save it, it is my choice. When that no longer is my right, I hope the world comes to a flaming, horrifying end.
How could strangers be forced to donate their blood or various organs? Would every human on earth be put on a donor list and we take turns?
4
He didn't get it wrong. He lied. Grow some spine with your headlines.
31
In Ireland, Savita Halappanavar, a 31-year-old Indian dentist, died on 28 October 28, 2012 when a miscarriage that started in the 17th week of a wanted pregnancy went horribly wrong. The dying fetus was actually partially rotting inside her, but was not expelled by her body and she needed an emergency late-term abortion. But the Irish doctors refused to perform it, even though there was absolutely no chance the fetus could survive, because they were able to detect a heartbeat. The result? Ms Halappanavar died from septic shock, needlessly and cruelly.
Abortion should be a matter between a woman and her doctor.
238
Plural of anectdote is not data. Certainly this case should be prepared for and abortion allowed in the future, but that is different than allowing all abortions always.
@Ray Maritza
Fine argument, but very few on the pro choice side argue for "all abortions always" and no laws I'm aware of, including the newly passed NY law, allow for "all abortions always" so I'm not sure who you're trying to convince.
48
Let’s face it! He gets most things wrong!
13
Trump rarely knows what he's talking about and his views on abortion, women and reproduction in general are immaterial. He was simply babbling the usual campaign trope inserted by his speechwriter to appeal to pro-lifers, many of whom are equally ignorant about such matters. But I am really sick of the "get government out of our lives" crowd telling women what they can and cannot do with their bodies. And it is horribly laughable to hear a serial sexual predator do so, one who may have been responsible for a few abortions himself.
61
What Trump said has nothing to do with science and everything to do with pandering to his base. We live in a post-truth world.
200
Is it correct to say that late term abortions are very rare? Clearly a matter of opinion, but if the number is 1.3% of all abortions, as quoted by the author, the number, about 8300 a year, is roughly the same as the number of gun homicides a year. Not many hold the opinion that gun homicides are rare in the US.
Despite the authors claim about a cerebral cortex being necessary for pain appreciation, painful stimuli produce strong activation of the thalamus, a subcortical structure. Reptiles, with little cerebral cortex, clearly experience pain. So to say the fetus, up to 24 weeks, cannot experience pain is just as speculative as to say it can. It may well experience intense unpleasantness, just not of the quality of that felt by adults.
11
@Michael Feely
good points no doubt. But I do think that if 83 of abortions are causing this much arguing- it is perhaps unjustified to mention it at a State of Union Address. Furthermore whose pain are we talking about? No one has figured out if there is actually someone feeling that pain (other than say the mother) and when that might occur gestation wise. Its more spiritual if you like. Thats an argument we can have forever possibly. From sperm and egg dividing for the first time to the actual first breath outside the womb. There is no religion, science or political party to decide that. So its about the law. And its a good law are far as I am concerned. Not sure if I keep my opinions separate from the truth the whole truth and nothing but truth, however I am going to say I am a lot closer than Donald Trump and the Pro Lifers on this. Pointing out that DT is wrong is wholly accurate. What you propose is not speculative at all - its unknown.
4
As a descendant of Holocaust refugees, any government mandated killing to any population is horrid and dangerous. Perhaps it starts with post-24 weeks then post-birth Down Syndrome babies. We have to protect the divinity of all life while ensuring that mothers with dead infants in their bodies can have operations to remove them.
@Michael Feely
1.3% of all abortions take place after 21 weeks. The vast majority of such abortions are in response to the discovery that a wanted baby is not viable: it will die in the womb or die soon after birth, when it will be highly likely to experience extreme pain. How callous you must be to believe a woman should force her beloved, wanted child to experience unnecessary and pointless agony.
11
Babies born at 22 weeks can survive outside the womb with medical assistance. Why would an abortion be allowed when the baby has a very good chance of survival at this stage of pregnancy? Science has been able to keep these infants alive. Why would we ever want to end them? This is a question that must be asked by society. Those favoring abortion do not want to face the truth. They want abortions to occur right up until birth. They will then want to kill the infant if he/she is not perfect. This will be disastrous for our country and we should all be afraid.
8
@WPLMMT: Survival without major problems at 22 weeks is rare. These late abortions are for if something major is wrong with the mother or the baby, not simply if mom changed her mind. And no, abortions do not occur right up until birth. This is a lie Trump uses to rile up his voters. If the mother has has a health problem, say pre-eclampsia, with a viable baby, ending the pregnancy is called delivery.
59
@WPLMMT How do you know what pro-choice people want? Why do you think "they want abortions to occur right up until birth"? Did you not read the complete article and absorb what, in fact, the law says? Abortions after 24 weeks are exceedingly rare and usually involve threats to the life of the mother as well as life-threatening abnormalities in the fetus. Abortions at any stage are usually an agonizing decision for a mother. I'm amazed that anti-abortion activists ever imagine they know everything about the thoughts and feelings of people who suffer the circumstances that bring such a choice before them.
50
@Peggy But that's not what the law says. It says ANY fetus - viable or not - can be aborted to protect the life or health of the mother. So there may be an OPTION to deliver a viable fetus in such a circumstance, but the law doesn't require it.
5
because suddenly truth is supposed to matter to Trump?
10
We Women are no better than livestock, to the GOP. To be used, controlled and Owned. Our lives are unimportant, our Deaths are a mere inconvenience, in the service of Fetus adulation. Cynical, immoral and inhumane. We MUST deserve it.
Right, GOP ?
2020. I can hardly WAIT.
66
@Phyliss Dalmatian
I always enjoy reading your comments on issues related to reproductive rights because you allow yourself to express well justified feminist OUTRAGE. I am feeling you, completely. As far as I am concerned, we should no more be having a "conversation" about abortion rights than we should regarding whether to reintroduce chattel slavery into this country. Women are not property. 2020 will hopefully be great but what I really want is just to find a place on earth where I will never, ever again have to hear a word from what you aptly describe as "fetus adulators." I am so sick of their self-righteous misogyny and their sanctimonious inability to understand that they will never, ever stop women from taking any steps necessary to control our own bodies. I have a kid going off to college in another state next year and she already knows that all she has to do is call me and say "I need help" and I will drop everything to ensure that she can exercise her right to choose. No law on this earth would stand in my way.
16
Two thoughts: @Kris Aaron writes: "Free and effective birth control available to everyone, and sex education in public schools!" My response includes "As for objections from the religious, okay, teach your children abstinence, and we can all watch them continue to get pregnant."
But for me, what makes effective birth control and avoiding unplanned pregnancy so imperative, is that abortion terminates what will, left to nature to take its course, shortly be classified as a human being. It seems to me the question being ignored is "how is terminating the existence of an unborn child, even before it becomes viable morally defensible?" I'm not suggesting life begins at conception. But at some point, doesn't the fetus have a "right to life?" The fetus didn't ask to be formed, but if it could speak, I'm pretty certain it would insist on being given birth. Wouldn't you?
I'm don't believe in god or a higher power or an after life. We only have one life, period. That's what makes it so valuable. And why we should do everything and anything to help people avoid unplanned pregnancies. Free birth control and comprehensive, age appropriate sex education seems like an obvious place to start.
4
@Steve I agree absolutely that access to and use of contraception is very important. But late term abortions are extremely rare and almost never about an unplanned pregnancy. They are about women who develop serious illnesses or fetuses who have abnormalities so serious that they have no chance of a normal life. Treating a woman whose life is endangered by her pregnancy as a thoughtless and heartless person only shows how little respect people have for families in this situation.
10
No, I wouldn't ask to be born under less than desirable conditions. Why? Because I'd rather hold out for above average conditions, ideally the best of conditions.
If a body is deformed to the point that I'd die anyway in a few days or weeks, I'd rather just abort the body and wait for a better one.
Pain isn't a consideration. I'd rather have the brief pain of an abortion than days or weeks or years of pain and confusion.
2
Two points -
1. Who is to decide when mother's life is at risk? And how much risk is too much for a mother?
2. Where is the "get government out of our lives" rhetoric by conservatives?
18
The doctor and the woman decide. Not the government
39
@K
Her medical treatment providers.
17
It is time for democratic politicians to talk about this subject. For too long, they have been tight lipped and dismissive of an issue which is going to become spotlighted in the wake of a conservative Supreme Court. Democrats need to stop worrying about the "slippery slope" of women's rights, and look at the whole issue. What do we do with a viable fetus in a late stage a bortion? How do we handle the severely deformed fetus? People recoil at the image of near full term fetuses being discarded as waste. What is really going on and is our legislator going to listen to those with first hand knowledge of this issue? And what will our legislator suggest be done to reduce the vast majority of unintended pregnancies which are early on? Most Americans recognize the abortion issue is particularly difficult because two lives are involved and both deserve compassion. Listening to each others' concerns as well as obtaining factual iinformation is the only equitable solution to this moral dilemma.
3
If DJT is truly concerned about children being 'ripped' from their mothers then perhaps he should look to the southern border where he has been doing the 'ripping'. Returning children to their parents is something he could actually do something to accomplish.
270
Great article exposing the myths espoused by pro-fetus politicians.
22
@paul I guess that the pro-choice politicians are therefore anti-fetus?
2
Democrats control the house. Write a bill and vote on it to take the decision away from SCOTUS.
It's a democracy-vote on it.
7
Great article debunking the myths exposed by pro-fetus politicians.
12
Think about the joy you had at your first ultrasound, 10 weeks in, hearing the baby's heartbeat and seeing the hands and feet just starting to take form.
By week 15, the fetus will turn away from bright lights and by week 19 will be able to hear your voice. The unshakable bond between child and mother begins then as they recognize your mother's voice.
Even up until this point, I support the wrenching choice to abort.
But at 27 weeks, with a working brain and ability to live outside the womb (with medical help) it is simply unconscionable to terminate.
A mother has had 6 months to discover she's pregnant and make a decision. At a certain point the responsibility for life takes over and there is no justification for what, sadly, is murder.
4
@Jonah The question is: Is anyone actually doing what you suggest? Deciding at 27 weeks or later that she just doesn't want a baby? And would it even be ethical for a doctor to perform such a procedure? I believe the answer to both is no.
47
@Jonah: Read the article again. Most of these are for babies which are not able to live outside the womb. Do you wish to condemn a woman to carry a dead/dying baby until her body decides to expel it? Healthy 27 week fetuses that threaten the mother’s life are removed by a different procedure. It’s called childbirth.
40
@Jonah If a mother dies because of the pregnancy she cannot be responsible for anything. What this article is trying to explain is that in the rare circumstance that a severely ill, pregnant lady who has passed the already mandated point of viability @24 weeks can have an abortion "if continuing the pregnancy would seriously threaten the woman’s life or health".
It is absolutely not a license to execute viable babies by tearing them out of their mothers' wombs in the way trump suggests and this is clearly described in the article below the title "What is late-term abortion and what does federal law allow?".
30
I haven't read the New York bill but Virginia HB 2491, sections 18.2-73 to 18.2-76, no. 1,2,3, clearly state the mother's life must be threatened by the pregnancy before aborting. Life support is withdrawn only if the infant is suffering and there is no viability. Withdrawing life support is not infanticide, it's mercy.
My experience was not with abortions but neonatal intensive care nursing.
73
Let's be clear. Gov. Northam referred to a living human being already outside the mother's womb, and then a decision between the mother and her doctor to do something (or nothing). That is tantamount to murder, no matter what deformity the living child may have. It is incredible this politician still has a license to practice medicine, and supposedly vow to 'do no harm'.
5
@J House: That’s not what he said. He said if the child is non-viable, comfort care would be provided. Most outlets cut the question, so it wasn’t obvious that the baby he was talking about is non-viable. No, he didn’t say you could do something to kill it.
35
The abortion is performed when there is no viability.
7
@Peggy
He spoke about the question of 'resuscitation' of the child...need I say more?
4
Abortion is the ending of life in the womb. Whether is is performed at six weeks, three months, six months or nine months it is still barbaric. It is cruel at any time of a pregnancy. Third trimester abortion at nine months is the cruelest time to perform abortions because this is the time a baby experiences the most pain. This is the worst kind of punishment you could subject a baby to. These innocent babies are pawns in all this. This in horrendous.
President Trump should be congratulated for speaking out against abortion. This is the human rights issue of our day and must be addressed over and over again. He is the only president who has ever broached this subject during a State of the Union address. He is the first president to support pro life folks during his campaign and has continued this support throughout his presidency. He sees the seriousness of this issue.
The evil of late term abortion must be stressed as often as necessary to put an end to the worst abuse to children we have ever seen. Many Democratic states are proposing this and hopefully they will fail. People must be told the truth about late term abortions which are rarely necessary. It is fallacy that they are performed due to the health or wellbeing of the mother. These are lies that the ardent pro abortion people want us to believe. The American public is not naive. We know the truth. There is no need for third trimester abortions.
5
Late term abortions are rare and are performed when the mothers health is endangered or when the fetus is not viable. No one makes this decision lightly. It’s not up to the state.
72
@WPLMMT,
to add to Zejee's comment above: it is also not up to you. you do not get to impose your morality on those who go by different ones. ie: for me it would be immoral to allow the woman to die if she has to carry a non-viable baby to term if her health is in danger.
12
It ain't no one's dirty business but my own...Billie Holliday
15
So Pam, your defense raises another question. If the late term abortion rules affect less than one percent of abortions that take place after the 24th week, why is it so important to Democrats?
2
@Ray Ozyjowski Because the cases where it is needed it can be horrific for the mother not to get it even if it is a small number, see @Jim S post on an example. So it's still important.
38
@Ray Ozyjowski
Because Hillary issued orders to all Democrats from her pizza parlor bunker. Good to see nothing gets past you.
18
@Pat, your zingers are a gem!
4
It is unfortunate that Trump supporters vent their urge to control other people out of a situation in which a woman is tormented with making such a life changing decision. However, their ability to feel any empathy is nonexistent.
136
I was raised Catholic, and generally find the concept of abortion disturbing. But I fully acknowledge you cannot force all women to have babies they did not plan on having. In a free society, the idea that a woman who was raped has to spend nine months carrying a baby is morally reprehensible.
This issue is never going to be resolved between the two sides. But what I find most disturbing is the absolute lack of support for birth control from conservatives, mostly for religious reasons.
If they were serious about significantly reducing the number of abortions in this country, they would demand fact-based, age-appropriate sex education for all students in this country. They would demand free, easily-accessible birth control for anybody who wanted it. They would demand free health care, free childcare, and other social services for any young woman who chooses to have a baby she didn't plan on having. In other words, reward women who "choose life" rather than abortion.
What we have is faith-based abstinence-only sex. ed. full of disinformation, resistance to birth control accessibility, and slut shaming of unwed mothers. The result is lots and lots of unwanted pregnancies. And as a result, more abortions.
The religious right doesn't care about abortion. They care about controlling people.
352
@Steve Acho
Amen, and no one is forcing them to have abortions against their faith.
45
@Steve Acho
Steve, for what it is worth, your position IMHO is fully Catholic, despite the fact that way too many Catholics are part of the effort to make abortion illegal.
There is a conflict in the Catholic tradition between (1) objecting to abortion, ultimately because we humans are immortal, and (2) Freedom of Conscience, affirmed unambiguously at Vatican II largely because of American influence.
Our believe in Freedom of Conscience absolutely requires acceptance of abortion as legal for those whose conscience can abide it.
And IMHO you are further bang on with your support for wide-open, fact-based sex education, and guaranteed access to contraceptives. Full-throated support for those two measures would accomplish a greater reduction in abortions that the current faith-based push to outlaw abortion.
Further, the formal Catholic teaching against artificial contraceptives is actually null and void because of the fact that this teaching has always been rejected in theory and practice of way more than a super majority of Catholics.
That "refusal to accept episcopal teaching" negates that teaching is an ancient theological truism that has not yet recapture the modern Catholic mind. It will eventually...but in the meantime, insanity reigns.
Although I gather you now define yourself as an ex-Catholic, it would appear IMHO that you continue to be guided by a very sold Catholic mode of moral reflection; sadly, say I, more solid than many bishops.
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@Steve Acho
I share your Catholic background, I managed to engineer my own de-programming. Havey Cox (author of The Secular City) makes a useful distinction between belief and faith. Belief is simply professed acceptance of declared dogma; faith, however, is a willingness to accept "God's will", to surrender to his "plan". Far right religious abortion fanatics profess a belief in their "God", but what they really have faith in is the power of the federal government. That's why they will blithely accept, even perversely celebrate the evil Trump does - gimme those conservative judges! Why is it that these people trust so little in the grace of God to inspire a pregnant woman, her pastor and her doctor to collaborate on difficult decisions that seek to balance the interests of the fetus and the mother in a humane. compassionate way? Why can't they be content to live their own religion and not seek to control others? Because that obsession with control is baked into far right Christianity - it's the DNA of a long-discredited patriarchy that Christians cling to because it offers the illusion of security - the great Daddy in the rectory, the great Daddy in the Vatican, the great Daddy in the sky. There is nothing more unenlightened than outsourcing your entire moral and ethical world view to the most corrupt institution in the world. Dither on, Frannie, dither on...
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A college friend of mine discovered she was carrying an anencephalic fetus during her first pregnancy. Her religious beliefs led her to opt to continue the pregnancy to term, cognizant of the near certain probability that the infant would not survive even a day. She was married and very much wanted children.
Unfortunately, she developed pre-eclampsia in month seven, and continuation of the pregnancy would have cost her her life. Thus a third trimester abortion was performed. She went on to have three uncomplicated pregnancies, bearing healthy children.
Had third trimester abortion not been available (in this case, as a "Plan B" when she became ill with pre-eclampsia), she would not have lived to bear three more children.
I rest my case.
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@Jim S
You right but the New York and Virginia law went way beyond that.
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@GDK How? it just repeated the supreme court law. Didn't go further whatsoever.
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@GDK The New York law did not "went way above that" as you can see if you read the whole article and the Virginia law has not been passed and therefore is not a law. As far as I can tell your statement is only accurate regarding the plight of Jim's friend...
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Expecting lies and misleading statements, I was hoping to find real-time onscreen fact checking available for the speech. None found. Maybe it's not available due to on-the-fly difficulties. I noticed Trump hand a copy of the speech to Nancy Pelosi before starting, so what's loaded into the teleprompters is available before the event. I am so distrustful of Trump that I feel steps need to be taken to overcome the piles of deceit he foists on us.
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Unfortunately, this administrations use of emotionally ladened language is the one thing it shows real mastery of and feeds right into the thinking of its biased base. I shuddered when I listened to the description, entirely false, that was given of late term abortion. These false statements will be repeated endlessly during the next months as the 2020 election picks up steam. This must be fought by those who support Roe vs Wade with equal vigor.
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@Elena Marcusi they're simply lies and that someone had written them down that way for him to say them, whether he understands any of the words and phrases from the teleprompter at all should be a criminal offence.
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Survival of a fetus outside the womb has changed and it is not 24 weeks any more.
Giving permission for non-medically trained people opens a pandora's box.Who are those people ?Why
permit them doing abortions and not appendectomies?There is quality control in hospitals but not in clinics or offices.Who will take care of complications if not the person who does the abortion?
I am ok to do what needs to be done to protect a mother's life but what about if the reason is the mother's "severe emotional" need?
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@GDK It's irrelevant whether you are "ok to do what needs to be done to protect a mother's life," unless you are that specific mother's healthcare provider.
Mental health care is health care. If a woman and her doctor determine a termination is appropriate based on her "'severe emotional' need" (aka mental illness), how are you qualified to decide her role as an incubator is more vital than protecting her health?
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@RL
I am not qualified to tell any one's mental status neither is the person who performs the abortion if not medically trained.There are people who are and in a late term abortion they should be involved.
I know wading into this is controversial, but there have to be other solutions in the case of a woman with severe mental illness who is carrying a viable child. Would it not be better to perform a cesarean section and have the child adopted?
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1% of hundreds of thousands is a lot. Why not say thousands of abortions take place after 24 weeks? The life, or health of the mother is another loophole used by abortionist to obscure the numbers. The Guttmacher Institute says that 4 out of 5 of the 12,000 women who get abortions after 21 weeks give reasons that don’t involve their life, or a malformed fetus. Numbers and statistics are being substituted to support an opinion most Americans disagree with. Convenience abortions after 24 weeks are not embraced by the public.
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@Jay
Excellent point; people's private medical decisions should always be subject to the approval of "the public."
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@Jay Very few physicians are willing to risk their medical licenses by performing abortions past 24 weeks absent serious, justifiable health issues involving either the fetus or the pregnant woman. Only three doctors in the US will perform third-trimester abortions, and they understand they're being watched closely for violation of their state laws.
I suspect the opinions you refer to are off-the-cuff reactions to the "pro-life" movement's use of photos of dismembered fetuses that come from unknown sources. Illegal abortions? Abortions performed in countries with lax regulations? Nobody knows.
The pro-lifers play fast and loose with their pictures, demonstrations and arguments, but are less willing to support the one thing that could reduce the number of abortions: Free and effective birth control available to everyone, and sex education in public schools!
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@Jay So what do you suggest we can do to bring abortion rate down given this current administration hostile attitude toward women's reproduction health? I am honestly curious about what GOP's solution besides criminalizing women (not the men, just the women) who have abortions.
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"There are inaccuracies and gray areas in Mr. Trump’s assertions."
You don't say. This is just Trump pandering to a certain part of his "base" and also hoping to deflect some attention from his other troubles which hopefully are just getting started.
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Once again, to spread confusion and incite alarm, facts take second, even third place to imagery and fear in Trump's hands. Whether you agree or disagree with abortion, it is important to define exactly what the law says, federal or state. Trump routinely blurs all lines in a deliberate attempt to create the reaction he wants to establish and benefit from politically.
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@Kay I'm pro choice and did not read the bill in NY just read the news reports.What I read sounds like a bad law.I'm not a fan of Trump but like many of his actions.The language he used "rip out" a viable being is to inflame and not accurate but a fetus has a right after viability.If you hit a pregnant women on a DUI accident and the mother survives while the fetus dies you should pay a price.You should not be able not to try to save a 22 wk old fetus based on a quick look after delivery even if you consult with a sedated mother.
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@GDK: maybe you should read the law that passed rather than reports before you decide that the law was wrong.
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