Imagine if RMS Titanic's lookouts had spotted the iceberg long before she struck it & the captain & his officers debated what to do until it was too late. That is what his feels like.
1
Brexit, the splintering of identity, and the increasing conflict amongst the peoples of the British Isles and the peoples of Europe, whatever else they may represent, are certainly victories for the Islamist extremists who hate the West and whose wars at home and abroad certainly fomented this crisis.
1
In 2016 46.5 million voters were registered. 35 .5 million voted among them 48.1 % to remain in EU and 51.8 % to leave.
Today registered voters are 48.5 million and most of the new 2 million registered would vote Remain .
Today the vote would be to stay in the EU.
A referendum is a referendum. it does not make up for a law. Specially if it is almost 50/50 .It is a crucial decision for the UK in the actual configuration of so disparate feelings in Scotland and Ireland to go forward with a decision that what taken after a fraudulous political campaign against the EU .Full of lies and misconceptions.
2
Ms May is the Woman in the Arena. Opposed by a majority of MPs - for opposite reasons, and with apparently zero appetite for compromise. A country split pretty much in two - and calls for another referendum, which would only intensify the split. A Labour Opposition which takes advantage of having no position. Any negotiating leverage (like the possibility of a 'no deal' outcome, which would severely damage German automakers and other EU) - is undermined by Parliament - which has also regularly demanded that she reveal all negotiating tactics. Her deal - regain immigration and justice, keep trading, allow time to solve the (never-ending) NI problem - is rationale and reasonable. Unlike most UK MPs.
Remainer myself BUT for those of you enthusing about Scottish independence remember the England - Scotland border is about as vague and wobbly as the Ireland - NI border. Do you want customs posts in Berwick-on-Tweed? The only people who will profit from daft border arrangements is organized crime who were dealt a blow by the Good Friday agreement.
1
So Theresa May is risking all this harm to regular folks just to keep her Conservative Party from splitting in two and destroying itself. One cannot help but hope she fails.
The British still do politics like in the 17th century . They are philosophically inept. Their financial survival also still relies on dishonest fiduciary practices ,Dublin acting as a base for the fiscal fraud of the biggest US corporations invading Europe and laundering the money through London. Same with Greece. All the money of the Greeks is hijacked in London with their shipping companies.
Astounded by the comments. Some want a new referendum; the first went well, right? Some attack May, but she inherited this from Cameron, and ultimately the referendum he held.
I think this proves that while democracy is great and the people have more power under that form of government, not all (most) voters have enough of a clue to decide much of anything. We can vote for our leaders and representatives, but it is them, not the people, that decide on policies and how to implement.
The people voted out of emotion, as usual, and most of the time that doesn't work out too well. Unintended consequences abound.
3
It's comical to hear the hard Brexiteer's current line, that the UK is "negotiating" and taking no deal "off the table" is naive wimping by inexperienced dealers. In fact, the negotiation ended last year and has been sent to "principles", in UKs case Parliament, for ratification of a concluded deal. If May had brought the current package to Parliament unsigned last year as EU's best offer, and had it voted down, it would have been a negotiating ploy. Not now. Having a fully initialed business deal or labor contract recommended by the executive and kiboshed by the Board or Directors, or union mmbership, in ratification does happen, very rarely and rarely to a good end. It bespeaks internal chaos and lack of confidence in executve leadershp, rather than tactical cool.
More funny yet, the odd case in which a trade union refuses to ratify a negotiated deal is exactly the thing that sends high born Tories into high dudgeon - now they're pointing to it as the model for concluding their own project.
1
Where we can see that the "United Kingdom " has only be "united " by force from a colonial nation : England.
In the 21 st century , Ireland is still cut in half because one side is protestant, the other catholic . But this does not stand anymore when looking over Europe. It only existed towards the occupant colonist foreigner .
Scotland is not far to be the same .
The overall picture is a good photograph of the philosophical level of the British culture . And its hypocrisy that could only stand by being imposed. Now that Europe has instigated democracy the Union does not exist anymore .
Just Dublin keeps cheating over tax fraud to Europe for the USA and London with all the US big corporations .
The Brexiters are swimming the English Channel in the winter. They ain't going to make it, and they're going to take the whole country down with them.
2
I am as tired of this charade as most of England must be. The people that voted to leave the EU did so because of xenophobia and were lied to by Tory politicians who live in a fantasy world of 1910 England.
I hope the EU holds firm and there is a no deal for England and when harsh realty sets in that after a few years England asks to be admitted to the EU and in the meantime the EU looks at itself and removes some of its annoying bureaucratic rules.
2
@Edward B. Blau
Not true re xenophobia ! It's an easy stick to beat the UK with but simply isn't true.
Nor is it a Tory fantasy.
The idea that the UK choosing not to be a member of the EU means the UK has a problem or is somehow wrong-headed about its own intentions.. I would be careful making such an assumption.
Actually Brexit was a positive vote for many - bringing accountability into a known and trusted place
1
**Mrs. May warned that “such actions would be unprecedented, and have far-reaching and long-term consequences for the way the United Kingdom is governed.”**
Mrs May was referring to the Cooper-Boles amendment which would have held Parliament to be responsible for its A50 letter date of 29 March, 2019, rather than the Tory government for which she is the public figurehead. But the fact is that Parliament, not the Tory Government sent that A50 letter, so it is Parliament that has the responsibility for either rescinding it, not Mrs. May's Cabinet. And now that a small majority in Parliament has been established to avoid a crash-out on 29 March, 2019, it is time to debate a motion on the wording of that rescinding letter.
FWIW, my opinion is that the UK needs time to hold a series of Citizens' Assemblies -- preferably in Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Northern and Southern England -- to advise Westminster on how to go forward in its relationships with the EU.
1
Whatever ultimately will happen, the damage to the British society has already been done.
Tensions, conflicts, hostility, polarization all are on the rise. How and when can the country heal again?
This is an cautionary tale about irresponsible, populist, manipulative politicians and their sponsors driving a whole country against the wall.
It it can happen in the UK, it can happen anywhere.
4
Theresa is looking a lot like bumbling Trump as Britain becomes the next laughing stock on the globe. Gotta love conservative rule.
4
Theresa May continuously repeats the drivel that “We can’t disappoint the British people”, “We must implement their request”.
This baloney spotlights her insincerity and willingness to be a toady for Britain’s 1/4%. She doesn’t want another referendum because she is uncertain that her propaganda machine will carry the day.
3
A few cool hard facts wouldn't go amiss here. I actually voted remain (no, really).
The UK's Conservative party is no more divided on the EU than the opposition party, or the UK at large.
The UK's relationship with the EU has forever been apart from other member the states – a glance at the map shows why.
Many in the UK voted to leave the EU knowing this would carry some (initial) economic cost.
People in the UK voted to bring accountability to a place it knows and trusts. Plus, reasonable management of immigration.
The EU's long term success depends on the success of its single currency, in turn requiring homogenisation of economic systems across the continent that is (happily, to my mind) rife with cultural and economic variety.
Few larger EU member countries would have the capacity to exit the EU. Their economies are not flexible enough or their reversal would trigger old-fashioned concerns of intra continental political instability.
The notion that the UK may choose to leave the EU without causing itself major damage is a terrifying thought to some of its neighbours.
No deal would mean disruption inside and outside the UK. But both UK and EU leaders have reiterated the desire to strike a mutually beneficial trade agreement post exit. If it’s a hard exit, so be it.
There is already a VAT and excise border in Ireland. If Ireland and the UK put their minds to it, finding a solution to the backstop that uses smart behind-the-border controls should not prove impossible.
2
The arrogance of the Brits is astounding. Why should the EU change the deal? After all GB wanted out even if many people didn’t really understand the consequences when they voted.They were not used to having a direct vote, which demands personal research and reflection.
4
Everyone from the United States who is commenting should ask themselves how they would vote in a referendum if they wanted to leave a NAFTA which had the authority to overrule U.S. Law. It would be a resounding "let's get out". That is the European Union and why people voted to leave. The mess is because the relationship has become so symbiotic.
The real question is: how did they ever allow themselves to get into such a situation which was originally sold to them as a free trade agreement?
2
As several MPs pointed out in Parliament, Theresa May is simply playing her cards slowly enough that no choice but her Brexit plan will be on the table. Letting the clock run out.
Also noted by several MPs, the entire Brexit ploy has been masterminded by British Oligarchs who want full control and to get the EU out of their hair.
It’s a win for Britain’s version of the 1/4% and widening inequality.
Unfortunately, although the Oligarchs carried the day by only 16 votes, they have succeeded in guaranteeing their program to run Britain into the ground for everyone but them. They or their progeny will rue the day.
2
Theresa May and Parliament are doing a live version of Groundhog Day, and, as they seem to have learned nothing along the way, will continue repeating the awful day until time runs out and no-deal Brexit arrives according to the real world's schedule. Rebel Labour MPs defied Corbyn and saved Ms May yesterday, but all that did was perpetuate the Groundhog Day cycle. The new vague and nonsensical talk about making 'alternative arrangements' for Northern Ireland would scare me to death if I were Northern Irish. I wouldn't want my life and welfare in the hands of people who are proposing to subject me to unknown 'alternative arrangements.' When Ian Blackford, head of the SNP Westminster group, voiced his concern for NI, he was shouted down by the House. Ms May, in her efforts to remain Prime Minister and hold the Tory party together, is about to thrust all components of the UK into a post-EU world it is completely unprepared for.
2
The easiest solution is for England to let Northern Ireland become part of the Republic of Ireland.
7
May herself voted against her own deal with the EU which four weeks ago she said was the best available and the EU would not improve. She now claims she can get them to reopen the negotiation. Within ten minutes of the vote in commons the EU commission president Tusk, the French president and the Irish PM made absolutely clear they are not going to reopen negotiations on the WA. Either May is demented or this is a maneuver to run out the clock so in a couple of weeks time MP's are faced with a choice between the deal she has secured with the EU (that was previously voted down by 220 votes) or crashing out of the EU which would be an economic disaster for Britain.
4
Your usually excellent reporting has been a bit skewed on this issue of late. What does the Government of the Republic of Ireland think about getting rid of the “backstop” (ie, continued customs union) for “some other arrangement”? Westminster now seems to want the EU to “somehow” change Ireland’s EU status, to make it easier for the UK to leave! How do the Irish feel about that?
2
"Measure twice, cut once" is the maxim that should apply with a decision of this tremendous, historical magnitude.
Voters didn't know exactly what they would get from their vote; voting not on a plan, but merely on the ideas of Leave vs. Remain. Now with the EU deal on the table, voters in another referendum would have significantly more practical, realistic information to base their preferences on--now voting about an actual deal rather than simply about a concept.
Measure again with another referendum before cutting ties with the EU.
10
Although legally, the referendum was non-binding, the government of that time had promised to implement the result. I suspect that many, if not most assumed that the vote was binding, even if they didn't totally understand the referendum.
1
As best as I can tell, over half of the average population in Britain has no problem at all with a no deal Brexit. After all, that's precisely what they voted for in the referendum.
I for one am hoping that 10,000 to 20,000 British jobs will relocate to the Netherlands in the weeks and months after Britain leaves the E.U. I'm also looking forward to seeing the, "but no one told us it would be this way" reaction on the faces of those same people who so enthusiastically voted for Brexit.
As always, BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR, IT MIGHT COME TRUE, applies.
12
@Ex New Yorker
"over half of the average population in Britain has no problem at all with a no deal Brexit. After all, that's precisely what they voted for in the referendum."
Not sure where you got this statistic, but I do not believe it is correct.
Firstly, the more recent polling shows a slight majority for a remain vote in a possible second referendum.
Secondly, only a proportion of those who would vote leave would opt for a no deal.
I think the no-deal extremists are the ones who shout the loudest, so that may account for your impression.
--also an Ex New Yorker, living in the UK and finding the current state of politics to be beyond belief
Postpone A50 and Brexit.
Indefinitely.
Which is how long it will take to have a plan suitable for all.
2
“...Kenneth Clarke, said that Britain faced a constitutional crisis, with voters looking on at the political system “with something rather near to contempt.”
Fitting. Contempt for the Irish and the rest of Europe is the English way... about time it got directed inwards.
9
Th UK may wind up losing Northern Ireland and Scotland. Theresa May is in a no win situation.
46
I certainly hope so!
8
@Donald Luke And possibly London as well. (I can envision the EU accepting its membership application as a, oh, I don't know, a Free City? There were such things in the Holy Roman Empire.)
8
@Susanna
London west to Oxford plus Kent and Sussex would be one of the richest countries on earth.
6
Why do another referendum? The first was non-binding. UK only took action when Parliament passed enabling legislation. If Parliament now thinks differently, it should take action on its own authority. It has all the power. If it cannot agree, it should call a real election, similar to ones done for hundreds of years, within the system. The first referendum was a bad idea. A second would be worse.
30
@Michael Blazin Asking people what they think is never a bad idea.
3
@Scott D
Dear Scott D,
They asked people what they thought in 2016. What makes you think they have changed their minds?
Besides, this whole issue is on parliament. The referendum was non-binding so all they have to do is pass legislation to either get on with it or annul it.
But like here in the US, politics are tribal, suicidal and not necessarily administered to the betterment of the country but for the betterment of the politicians.
9
@Scott D, asking people what they want is never a good idea either.
3
A salient reminder, the avoidance of a hard physical Border on the island of Ireland has everything to to with the Belfast Agreement (or Good Friday Agreement), for which Senator Mitchell and Michel Barnier achieved in 1998. Senator Mitchell should also be canonised for his great work which has been instrumental in avoiding a repetition of the Troubles thus far. The GFA is incorporated into United Nations Treaty. The EU simply do not believe the hollow promises of Westminster in avoiding a hard border. They have previous.
35
PM May is a bit of a marvel. Every time a dramatic vote is supposed to sweep her out the door, low and behold, she is still standing there trying to remonstrate.
I would probably be a remainer if I was British, but even so, I can't help but admire her grit and tenacity. I wish her and the UK well and hope they are able to negotiate themselves out of this difficult situation.
15
As a Brit, I agree up to a point. She is wily for sure. But she is mainly saved by the fact she is basically a sacrificial lamb when things finally settle (if that ever happens). Boris Johnson is her likely successor. Her staying power also shows the absolute incompetence of the leader of the opposition, Jeremy Corbyn. Honestly, if he weren’t such an evasive & secret Brexiteer, the U.K. would have a fighting chance out of this mess.
12
@Sm77
It's the fact that Johnson is a possible successor that is one of the keys to her survival. The Conservative MP's are absolutely determined to block his elevation because they correctly perceive him to be as big a buffoon as Corbyn. That how she survived the her party's confidence vote a few weeks ago. They can't have another for a year. She also keeps reneging on her commitments to the EU so she is certainly not going to get anything substantial out of them this time around. And where does that leave Britain.
6
@John
Bigger.
What a mess. If the Brits don't call for another election... their fate is a no deal Brexit. And that will be a disastrous life changing decision.
15
@marrtyy It's such a mess that I doubt very much whether a general election would fix it! There's no plan for a non-mess anywhere to be found in Parliament.
2
Mrs. May is facing becoming one of the most detested politicians in the history of Great Britain. That is because the EU is almost certainly not going to make changes to the original Brexit agreement that would please enough members of Parliament. And unless a second referendum is put forth by the UK government, a No-Deal Brexit is almost a certainty. Such a Brexit will produce higher costs and hardships for the British people for a significant period of time and will result in a terrible legacy for Mrs. May as prime minister.
She may not deserve the terrible legacy -- such a legacy will validly be deserved by David Cameron, who allowed the initial referendum to take place -- but more likely than not she will be burdened with it throughout her life.
36
Theresa May will deserve the terrible legacy which will follow her like a shadow. As Home Secretary she never got control of immigration and promoted xenophobic policies which she knows will appeal to certain voters in the Conservative party. She became Prime Minister because of internecine attack’s by other ministers left her as the last person standing. She wasted a healthy majority in Parliament by calling an unnecessary general election which forced her to form a coalition with the DUP. At a time of national emergency May has never reached out beyond her party to hear the views of other parties. She is blinkered and deaf, she has failed in her negotiations with the EU because she has agreed a position that even her own party will not support. In recent weeks Theresa May has the largest defeat in parliamentary history which alone should make her resign. The Conservatives have been found in contempt of parliament. All this to satisfy the far right ERG clique within the Tory party. Theresa May doesn’t even believe in leaving the EU.
12
@Thomas
All true. But not forgetting Cameron, their punishment in Hell could be to be tied together forever.
My wish for our friends in the UK is that they "keep calm and carry on" as they like to say. I note that despite all manner of stumbles and bumbles by the Conservative Party, the UK as a whole is not turning to the chief opposition party in the Commons, headed by that Corbyn fellow. Incompetency for now is winning over Labor's soft Marxism and an affinity for Hamas and Maduro of Venezuela.
I've watched Parliament TV to get a sense of these politicians in the UK, and the good news is British dry wit is still on tap, as is a good degree of formality. They do yell and interrupt but read the history of our own 19th century Congress with fistfights, death threats and a near homicide inflicted on Sen. Sumner.
The lesson we should learn is that direct democracy in the form of a popular referendum is to be avoided. Voters can be manipulated and not just by bad actors in the Kremlin but by domestic factions as well. Our elected officials need to stop shutting government and do their jobs, which includes making tough decisions on both shores of the Atlantic either in Parliament on Brexit or in our own Congress on a host of issues.
19
“Brexit” seems to have taken a life of its own, independent of Britain, Europe and their pending divorce! Every party is split at least two ways and every parliamentarian has more than one opinion, a couple of reservations and killer-amendments. It is astonishing that the British could carry on like this for three years, putting the whole government on ‘auto pilot’, and we Americans cannot stand a “partial” government shutdown for just 38 days!
Historically, the Brits had a unique solution whenever they came to a fork in the road: they split it. When North America slipped from their hands, they divided Canada from the States. They did it in Ireland, India, Palestine, Cypress and elsewhere! Divide UK into two --- Brexiters and Remainers! The “two systems and one country” in Hongkong (a former British Colony) can be applied to U.K.
10
@T. Ramakrishnan Look at how well that plan worked and how many millions of lives were lost and continue to be affected by those 'solutions'.
5
The British are like Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard. They think everyone still loves them, unaware that their glory days are long gone. May goes back for a renegotiation of the backstop with some deluded notion that the EU is just playing hard to get. I cannot see how, from the EU point of view, a UK more prosperous outside than inside, would have been a desirable outcome. I suspect that Brussels looks across The Channel at the self delusional antics in the British Parliament and says "Thanks be to God, only two months more".
38
All this BREXIT chaos to hold the Tory party together, selfish or what. If anyone doubts this fact look at the Tory manifesto of 2015 on which David Cameron was elected on. He included the referendum to appease his party's right wing that was threatening to split and join UKIP the openly xenophobic party. Two former Tory MPs did eventually defect and stand as UKIP candidates Mark Reckless and Douglas Carswell.
16
For heaven's sake just go already. Parliamentary discourse and debate has deteriorated into 7th grade hair pulling contests. Put a fork in yourselves. None of you deserve an ordered, equitable, balanced agreement that considers both sides and compromises. Implode and be done with it.
17
I wonder how bad a hard Brexit would really be. After all the Brits don't HAVE TO create trade barriers and enforce them at the borders. Even if they pass restrictive laws on French cheese or Italian tomatoes they can simply choose not to enforce them. Or enforce them only as much as their economy can bear. The fear of miles long lines at every port assumes that the Brits will insist on looking in every container, reading every manifest.
The flow of people is a more difficult matter but I'm sure there are work-arounds; after all, they're famous for "muddling through".
So that leaves the EU. Will they have a Trumpish fit and try to punish the UK with tariffs? What would the merchants of France and Italy and the other 25 nations have to say about that?
So many of you are convinced that the sky is about to fall, it's lonely over here on my side. I'm really not trying to be difficult. Am I missing something?
8
Yes, WTO rules.
15
@laurence
Reciprocity. The most important rule of all.
13
@laurence - Yes, WTO Rules .. unless and until they are replaced with something else.
But you are correct a no deal Brexit would not be the end of the world and, though not nice to say, it's what those who voted for Brexit, overwhelmingly in ignorance, deserve.
9
Put it to another vote. When this first came up, nobody knew just how bad the administration of such a thing could be, and how petty the people doing the administering could be. The EU, like Rome, was not built in a day, but it can be changed. You just have to dis-believe that it can happen overnight with no worries or pain.
12
There are many voices in the UK saying no-deal Brexit won't be so bad. It will be. They can't even function now. Imagine what it will be like when this same incompetent government is dealing with shortages, gridlock, panic, fighting in the streets over half a can of dog food...
21
So the current plan is a deal which no one says exists or crashing out which also is unacceptable.
Seems like they should say that they are crashing out, but need more time to prepare for it.
5
It is hugely unfortunate that Parliament did not seize control. It would have indeed been a historic shift of power but one that is badly needed. Instead, they have voted to keep themselves hitched to a stubborn horse galloping toward a cliff--and that cliff is Brexit, with or without a deal.
The minimal 51.9% vote in favor of Leave was brought about by the same types of voters in England and Wales angry about their place in the 21st Century economy that helped get Trump in the White House from the Rust Belt. However, while Trump will be turned out or termed out, the horrible impact of Brexit on the UK will be felt for generations. It will not be an easy task to ever get back in the EU where the UK belongs. The British people have come to realize this and recent polls show nearly 60% now want to Remain. Yet May keeps harping on about the will of 51.9% of the people three years ago, obsessed with a single minded direction toward the cliff. She and the Eurohaters she has aligned herself with just to stay in Number 10 now equate to a grave national threat to the United Kingdom. Parliament had a chance today to stop the madness and potentially delay Article 50 while holding a new referendum. Instead, they blew their chance to protect the nation from folly, allowing May to continue her obsession to follow a 51.9% vote from 2016 while letting the Eurohaters commit a crime against the UK that it will not recover from. The future for Britain and Northern Ireland is sad.
5
ORDER!
The EU is an imperfect union of 27 countries in a complicated world. I say it has succeeded for the most part.
Let’s not have another non-binding vote and maybe a third one just to be sure...
The deal is the deal on March 29. The world will find out quickly how good the competing ideas really are. It will be a historical lesson for sure. We will be better off learning from it then having to further endure politicians at their worst forever.
4
I have heard that Cambridge Analytica and Steve Bannon were fomenting this Brexit with a similar goal as the Trump campaign and heck lets also open the question to Russian efforts to destabilize the West. As apparent in the U.S., it appears that a large segment of the population was convinced with plenty of misinformation to vote against its true self-interest. Is this true?
6
Tonight is Brexit in microcosm:
Parliament voted to agree that they don’t want No Deal. But there is also no deal they agree on, except that they don’t like the only deal they’ve been offered.
Confused? But here’s the irony: without A Deal, we will crash out into No Deal despite Parliament saying they don’t want it to happen. The ‘we don’t want No Deal’ vote (the Brady Amendment) is utterly toothless and ignores reality.
Parliament also voted to (a) Not give themselves more time and (b) Not give themselves any control. The govt voted to alter an agreement that THEY THEMSELVES spent two and a bit years negotiating. May voted to amend a deal which a week ago she was saying would not be up for bargaining!
And of course, the EU have been saying for months that negotiations are closed. And they said it again, within minutes of the vote. Is Westminster in a bubble? Do they not know that the EU watches the news, knows what Parliament is doing, and comments on it in real time? Utterly utterly pointless, useless, unimaginative, uninspiring, regressive, stupid, rubbish! Like Brexit.
What a shower! We need a regime change from someone (no Trump, not you).
12
This is not the first time Calais trade across the Channel to Kent as been disrupted. There is a very long history of trade and commerce hiccups that required revising laws and procedures for cross-straits trade. But they figured it out then and will likely do so now with Brexit. Nothing like the Dutch-English Wars over trade.
Calm down.
1
Zombie May has not "survived."
British parliamentary democracy is trapped in a cul-de-sac barricaded by extreme, delusional Tories. The only way out requires coordinated action by rational servants of the people led by a charismatic leader with a clear message & plan. Unfortunately, with the possible exception of Keir Starmer, there is no leader with a plan anywhere near the levers of power.
Britain is rudderless & captain-less. It has drifted into a storm. The plutocrats on board remain oblivious: they think they will wave down any passing ship in the vicinity & simply switch vessels. Who cares, after all, what becomes of the UK itself? With an economy smaller than California's, on a planet of almost eight billion, not that many people, ultimately.
There's money to be made, in this bizarre set of circumstances. The vultures will have their money. Proud, arrogant, xenophobic, racist ordinary Britons will fare worse than ever before. They are trading away a million or so grateful, hard-working Poles for the contingent of mystery guest workers who will inevitably be called upon to replace them, from Turkey, or Russia, or Uzbekistan. Because someone will have to fill those menial, difficult jobs May/Corbyn no longer want EU members performing.
There simply aren't enough healthy working age natives to keep the English economy humming. Scotland, for one, won't stick around to cater to this mayhem.
A raucous, ignorant minority has voted to make the UK irrelevant to the future
12
@Maria Ashot "A raucous, ignorant minority has voted to make the UK irrelevant to the future" I would like to read more of the Cambridge Analytica / Steve Bannon machinations that riled the British citizenry with similar polarizing rhetoric as that which gave us Trump.
2
@Amskeptic
And let's not forget Russian money.
May I refer you to the Guardian archive online. A comprehensive account of those machinations can be found there. There's no paywall.
5
Brexit has reached the point of utter incapacity of the UK to get out from under the political paralysis. The zombie march is on.
5
This whole thing is an utter mess. Even if the EU were willing to renegotiate major points of the agreement with the UK (which they aren't), May and her team would have to complete the negotiations in 8 weeks after being unable to come to an agreement after years of negotiations AND she would still have to convince hard-line Brexiters to go along with the renegotiated deal. A no-deal Brexit seems like the most likely outcome at this point.
7
What about Houdini as a compliment to Mrs May-be-Never or is it now Mrs May-be-whatever.
"...Kenneth Clarke, said that Britain faced a constitutional crisis, with voters looking on at the political system “with something rather near to contempt...."
Was not Mr Clarke called her " a bloody difficult woman."
Name calling and describing situation in dire, historic terms is the pass time of Britain today.
I just went to my dentist yesterday, for teeth cleaning. These MP's are like folks who avoid and avoid going to a dentist . And then are shocked that either a root canal or a complete removal of a molar is needed - at much higher pain or expense or both.
I watched the prime minister LIVE on BBC - may be not everything I want is in her deal.
But if I were a sitting member who voted for holding a referendum, then triggering Article 50 - then voting confidence in her and not holding a general election - why in the world waiting another two weeks is going to make this deal any better.
And as the prime minister had reminded many times - there are indeed a solid majority of members who have precisely done this?
My hunch is - procrastination may not or never yields anything - but having a gun to your head - you have to throw up your hands - and then vote for her deal.
Much was said about Mrs Thatcher - being the only man in her cabinet.
I dare say this prime minister "a bloody difficult woman" is proving the "only capable man in the parliament."
@Neil
Except her "deal" is not a deal. The Withdrawal Agreement May is trying to affix to the UK is not any kind of deal. It is simply a promise to begin comprehensive negotiations on a "future relationship."
Let me explain with an example easier to visualize:
The spouses have agreed to divorce. The British spouse is turning in the keys and leaving the marital home, with just their own passport & some bank cards, having agreed to embark on negotiations about the rules for the "future relationship."
Those negotiations would take place with the leaving spouse off the premises.
Yet now the leaving spouse has just voted to "reopen negotiations" that the spouse inside the marital home says will not be reopened.
The leaving spouse has demonstrated that their word is worthless. Also, that they don't know what they want. Also, that they are unstable. Also, their contempt for the spouse they have broken away from, and their fundamentally self-serving dishonesty throughout the marriage. Also, their exaggerated & unrealistic notion of their own "irresistible charm" (that went out the window when they started smashing the furniture and using abusive language).
Nothing is more clear today than that the divorce is a go, and that the spouse in the marital home is now massively relieved to chart their own course -- possibly one that includes new, better partners.
The EU27 just recently signed a really sublime agreement with Japan. As just one example.
10
How many votes did she win by?
1
Unless there is something in it for them, the EU won't renegotiate unless it's worth their while. Everyone has a price. The UK just needs to find it. And be willing to pay it even if it means abhorrent debt to your people. One to two trillion Euro penalty over 10 years should do it. This will pay for the custom union set up on the EU side. Nothing for the Brits to do but enjoy the ride literally. You might have to kill the NHS to pay for it. Might as well. At least you won't starve come April. No joke. This way you can still have your cake and eat it too.
1
I disagree completely that Theresa May is back to where she started before the amendments. She has now lost a key card she played, the threat of no deal, to convince others in Parliament to support the negotiated agreement with the EU. The Brady amendment is passed by her and her colleagues through their voting against that agreement. They negotiated it and have now disowned it. This is being perceived as acting in bad faith here in Ireland tonight, with headlines 'May reneges'... on this Brexit agreement, the Good Friday Agreement and everything she said about the Irish border.
What 'alternatives to the Irish backstop' are, no one actually knows. The amendment is discarding what was, in effect, a buying of time for another 2 years for the British to do what they couldn't do for the past 2 years - figure out how to resolve the customs and security issues of their EU border in Northern Ireland. By now saying they want an alternative to that, what does that mean? A hard border?
The British are very good at the whole pomp and circumstance, and the charades tonight at Westminster were just that. They still have no deal that they can agree with the EU, but they would like to leave with one. That's grand, but the parliaments of the other 27 nations of the EU have things they would like as well, equally valid. The onus is on the UK to find a way to agree with all 27 a deal. None of these amendments passed does anything like that.
13
@gf Agreements of any kind in western democracies are not happening because people do not have discussions, they just state what they want. Then either "put it up" in front of a judge to decide who gets what they want or they wait for & put it up for an election so then at least, whatever point or person gets the most votes, decisions are done, NO discussion! Cases in point this Brexit exit & Trump's wall.
What a charade! The WA is not open to renegotiation, and MPs know it darn well. So why the farce? These people are neither stupid nor ignorant. So my guess is they are setting up to blame EU 'intransigence' for causing a crash out and all the pain that will follow, on both sides of the Channel.
I used to consider myself an 'anglophile'. No more. Perfidious Albion it is. Quite sickening, really. Vandalistic cynicism.
15
I followed this on the Guardian. What a joke.
It was Kabuki. Basically, England and the Ulster Protestants are asking the EU to renegotiate the deal and there is no commitment to what Parliament will accept. At a bare minimum, Parliament needed to have made an offer.
Instead, it commissioned May to get Alternate Arrangments from the EU.
Never Going to Happen.
And I saw somewhere that the 10 Northern Irish "...Loyalists...from the DUP-the MPs who give May her Majority- have announced that the 27 NATION EU have got to start listening to the Loyalist in Northen Ireland.
Right, Germany and France and Italy and the Dutch etc etc have to start listening to a million or so Ulster Protestants, many of whom are ready to start refighting the wars of Religion.
Of course, firsdt, they would have to stop killing each other over Drug turf. (So would the IRA- the other Hard Men of NI)
7
Stop talking in extremes without nuance. 53% of England voted to leave, as did 38% of Scotland, 53% of Wales and 44% of NI. Saying “England voted for it” casually and ‘conveniently’ ignores the 47% who did not. You’re parroting the same “overwhelming majority” nonsense that the Brexiters do.
1
37% of the UK electorate voted for leave, well over two years ago without realising what they were in for. Times change and so do votes.
1
It would of course make sense to get a second referendum but it is also unlikely (or so it seems) to happen.
At the end of the day, we have this adage in France which seems to be justified: the British always want the butter, the money of the butter and the money of the farmer. Let them stew for now!
7
ON another note, I have always been somewhat of an Anglo-phile. I gotta say that this fiasco might be changing my pov.
3
Britain, like Spain, and like other democracies, in the advanced world are going to be faced with a problem that America's founders inoculated us against, to some degree. Changing core law, such as our Constitution, requires super majorities to change. As much as our Constitution is flawed, it has prevented us from destroying ourselves pursuing fleeting popularities. Our founders wrote the Constitution to put roadblocks in front of our most self destructive instincts. Britain should be so lucky to have this sort of road block.
1
@Michael
Umm, the problem this democracy faces is two of our last presidential elections went to the candidate who received fewer votes. Others? How about the notion that Wyoming and California receive the same representation in the Senate. Or that districts can be gerrymandered to distort House representation. Shall I continue?
I wouldn't tout US Constitutional government too loudly.
14
With respect, it has stopped your ability to repeal your gun laws.
There should be another Brexit vote, but the only choices should be: (a) the Brexit agreement that Theresa May has negotiated with the E.U.; or (b) stay in the E.U.
A no-deal Brexit should not be on the ballot because there is very little support for it, so it has no chance of winning.
10
The SNP laid down its marker today. If the UK crash out with No Deal, there will be another referendum on Scots Independence. If the UK Parliament will not allow one, why then, Scotland might just unilaterally declare Independence.
14
This will be the same SNP who LOST SEATS to the Brexit-obsessed Tory Party in the last election (2017, ie after Brexit)? Yeah, okay...
@Mat That was then and this is now. As you yourself pointed out to me above,the Remain vote in Scotland was 62%. That was the highest in the UK. If the UK crashes out of the EU with No Deal, there will be another Scots Independence Referendum.
My big issue with Brexit is the totally delusional views held by the Brexiteers that they can more-or-less dictate terms. It reminds me of 10 years ago or so back, when the England Football Team did not qualify for the World Cup and the English Press asked all the other teams whether it seemed like a real tournament without England.
There is not going to be a deal. The Torres and the =ahem-DUP will have to decide what to do.
2
Unlikely. Look up the Barnet formula for moving money to Scotland. Oil revenues have fallen so Scotland needs to exist in an optimal currency area. The EU will not provide that.
1
Scotland wants to remain in the EU; So does both the Republic of Ireland anfd Northen Ireland since Brexit would end Good Friday accords.
So only England wanted Brexit,and may have changed its mind.
The EU, and rightly so will not budge from its latest proposal, which demands a customs border somewhere, the most logical being between Nortern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
Such a barrier in no way has any political or national consequences.
A great number of countries have customs barriers and import taxes on various territories.
The American Virgin Islands, the French Overseas
Departements, for exemple.
Any way the only reasonable and democratic solution is to submitt to a final referendum the Treaty as it is proposed by the EU.
After all the first one was made under the promess that further negotiations would allow the UK to have the cake and keep the money. Since this is clearly not possible, it is now for the people to choose.
All these B plans to pospone the hard decison that must be taken, are mere political stunts
8
@Max Lewy
1. Wales? Ahem(Cough)?
2. The Orangemen in Northern Ireland are a major problem. Let's face it.
4
@Max Lewy, the Republic of Ireland had no say in the Brexit referendum. Don't forget Wales, they voted the same as England, for leaving the EU.
A customs border will certainly cause the re-establishment of the decommissioned checkpoints which we had to live with. This will not go down well politically, I'm afraid I disagree with you completely. Many people on both sides of the border have to cross several times a day to go to work, school, their farmlands and their relatives. Many products, like milk, crisscross the border several times a day for processing and delivery.
We don't want the border to return to a physical barrier between people. The majority in Northern Ireland voted to remain, but the Unionist constituencies voted to leave. It is this minority that are claiming to represent the concerns of Northern Ireland now in Westminster (listen to Nigel Dodds, MP for the DUP, tonight claiming this). The DUP are in coalition with the Conservatives, which means that Theresa May must keep NI Unionists happy to keep herself in power. That's the biggest political stunt of all.
12
@Max Lewy A quick read of Irish history would suggest an different outcome than the one you described.
1
Again, the only resolution to all of the interminable "bickering" is to have a second referendum—the FIRST VALID, WELL-INFORMED ONE—and warrant the reality that staying in the EU is best for everyone.
The British public now knows that Brexit would cause more problems than staying in the EU—problems which British leadership in the EU CAN RESOLVE (given another Tony Blair).
The first referendum should be regarded as invalid in substance—even questionably valid in procedure (with hacker inflammation of social discord in a recession now largely past).
A second referendum is no betrayal of the principle of a people’s vote. A truly democratic representation—well-informed, thus admirable in result—can transcend the very misled populism of 2016.
18
Stop all the nonsense and have another vote. It is plain as the nose on your face that the whole Brexit idea was concocted by the Steve Bannon of Britain named Nigel Farage. I don't know who is a greater fraud and con artist Bannon or Farage? And yes, please spar me your Trump brain, it was and is evident that Russia did the same meddling with a weaponized internet to sway the vote. Vlad's dreams realized. Like the 2016 election, many people figured HRC was going to win easily so why bother to vote. No sane person would vote for Trump. Same thing in the UK. Quite a lot stayed home figuring, who would vote for such Brexit nonsense. Well, they woke up to stark reality and the Kremlin popped champagne bottles and washed it's victory down with vodka.
32
Ms May may survive but the pound may not!
3
Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
11
As I have said before here in the bellwether place that is Hove, it looks to me as if the absurd "Brexit" will fizzle out. After all, I won a modest amount on betting that Theresa May's foolish 2017 "snap" Election would bring a Hung Parliament.
1
Hate to break it to you chum, but as far as Brexit goes Remain-voting Hove is about as “bellweather” as Islington.
Come to the countryside and talk to the locals, who gripe about the railways, the banks and the state of the NHS - but then vote Tory because they blame everything on the EU and “the forriners”.
6
I am really curious to see how the markets will react tomorrow. It's looking like a no-deal is actually in the making. Don't think the £ or the Footsie are going to like this. That's when English minds will start to focus, as when a hanging looms.
5
@David,
Yes, but remember what happened after the Brexit result: the pound and FTSE dropped dramatically, but soon after investors bought UK stocks at discounted prices and the decline was not so dramatic.
The Amendments tonight wrt Article 50 and the Withdrawal Agreement of Brexit were surely one of the most important peacetime Sessions in my 62 years.... even here Brexit didn’t disappoint. The results were largely toothless and inconclusive.
2
The self-congratulatory Brexiteers don't seem to understand that any negotiation has to be approved by 27 nations in Europe. 27 different legislatures. They haven't even approved the deal that EU leadership offered Britain yet. If they view Britain as getting favors, they may reject it, leading to a hard Brexit. Theresa may have already run out of time to avoid hard Brexit without asking for an extension.
14
The amendment to delay Brexit just failed. So, at least at this point Theresa May's game of chicken has not made her party blink. She is accelerating straight at the hard exit brick wall and hoping that the rest of Europe or her hardliners will blink. I think Britain has no leverage, so they will be forced to accept Brussels' deal or risk the hard Brexit.
11
They're going to crash out with no deal. That becomes more clear every day.
From EU negotiator Sabine Weyand: "We looked at every border on this earth, every border the E.U. has with a third country — there’s simply no way you can do away with checks and controls." Alternatives to a hard border in Ireland have been elusive for a simple reason: “because they don’t exist.”
14
This beggars description. How many times can the UK shoot itself in the foot?
The nation seems incapable of admitting the mistake made in the original referendum and getting on with it. How did they survive WWII and the Blitz?
The years of political in-breeding and settling for mediocrity and ignorance are finally catching up to the sceptered isle. Painful to watch.
24
The UK, much as it tries, does not get that the EU will not discard rules to keep the UK in. Faith and begorrah, why would they now? Because the UK is intrinsically superior?
11
Will there be no end to the examples of failed leadership from Britain? Leaders - and I use that term loosely - from all parties don't want May's Brexit deal. They don't want a vote of no confidence. Now they have voted down a measure to delay and offer more time. Rubbish! As politicians politick, the lives of real people hang in the balance and these leaders - again, I am using that term loosely - seem not to care at all. It is painfully and abundantly clear that Brexit has nothing to do with actual Brits and everything to do with feathering one's own political nest. One cockup after another while everyone twists in the wind.
5
That's a simplistic view of the constitutional settlement in the U.K., under which it has always been possible to introduce private members' bills, in the Lords or the Commons, which are precisely not government legislation; as well as members having the opportunity to amend government bills.
3
Perhaps at this intractable, hopeless moment for a "soft landing" with the country hurtling to a chaotic, no deal Brexit, would it not be better to at least inject an element of pure luck into the equation? After all, the Brits love to wager upon all manner of events. Let the colorful Speaker preside over a decisive Parliamentary coin toss: heads for adoption of May's proposal and tails for the absence of any plan of withdrawal, with a communal prayer preceding the toss.
1
It is unclear to me how the "wishful thinking" amendment about not leaving without a deal helps negotiations. While it is completely symbolic (Britain has no leverage to force the EU to offer anything better), it at least shows that a tiny majority want a continued relationship of some kind with the EU. But it is hardly enough of a margin to guarantee to the EU that if they trade concessions with Britain that it will pass Parliament. I don't see the rest of Europe rewarding Britain for the Tory hissy fit of the last month. They might consider weakening the backstop, but only if other considerations are in place. The Republic of Ireland will simply veto anything they view as harmful to the Good Friday peace deal that has made relations with Northern Ireland so peaceful over the last 20 years or so. Of course, hard Brexit is harmful, too, so there is perhaps some room for movement.
2
I don't think the UK has "no leverage." It is one of the EU's top 3 most important markets, buying more than $400 billion of EU goods and services a year (only a little less than the US), and the EU benefits from a huge trade surplus with it. The UK is home to what is by far Europe's financial capital (which underwrites much of Europe's debts), Europe's leading tech capital (from computing to biotech to fintech), its leading university sector, and its leading producer of scientific research, among many other areas where the UK excels. The UK has the most potent military in Europe after Russia (which is hostile to the EU), and is a crucial EU partner in both intelligence and security. It is also a major diplomatic power - with a permanent seat on the UN security council (something even Germany lacks), and in the G7, Commonwealth etc. It is very much in the EU's interest not to have a chaotic, angry and alienated UK to its West, as the EU deals with an increasingly hostile Russia to its East, ongoing chaos to its South across the Mediterranean, and an increasingly disengaged USA that is questioning its commitment to Europe.
1
@Edmund Langdown
You, in turn, are ignoring the fact the England Plus the DUP have negotiated with the implicit belief that everything you posted would mean that they would get their own way.
Well, that has not happened, has it?
The other day a BBC Correspondent asked a MInister of the ROI Gov't why Ireland would not just quit the EU and join with nthe UK in its bold new adventure?
Seriously?
Anyway, soon enough you will see business and money leaving the UK. You will Scotland leave, too.
The Tory Right, the Orangemen and the Angry Men of the North- quite a coalition there for England.
8
@Lefthalfbach I'm not ignoring anything - to pretend that one of the major powers in Europe has "no leverage" at all in negotiations is simply silly. I think that's been demonstrated by what the EU has already conceded. For a long time it claimed again and again that its "four freedoms" were indivisible, but ultimately it walked back from that, agreeing to a deal in which the UK would continue to enjoy tariff free access to the EU despite ending free movement of people. It also agreed the UK wouldn't have to make annual contributions for this tariff free access, and the exit lump sum it had originally asked for was halved.
PS There is no sign of Scotland leaving. Support for Scottish independence has fallen since the last referendum not risen, and the SNP lost a lot of seats at the last election. I expect many Scots are realising that if it's this difficult to take the UK out of the EU after 40 years, imagine how much harder it will be to take Scotland out of the UK after 300 years. Scotland does more trade, and receives more investment, from the rUK than it does with the EU.
I’ve commented enough on my BREXIT views, and really what else is there to say about it that hasn’t already been said. I WILL, however, extend kudos to Mrs. May, whose resilience and tenacity is truly extraordinarily and whom I greatly respect for attempting to achieve the almost unachievable which is breaking from the EU AND no hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
4
@ManhattanWilliam
I agree, except for the "almost" part.
2
“Kenneth Clarke said that Britain faced a constitutional crisis, with voters looking on at the political system “with something rather near to contempt.””
To be honest, I’ve taken a dim view of the British political system from the time of Tony Blair pushing for a war because of non existent WMDs. The whole Brexit fiasco, starting with Cameron calling a referendum to try and reign in far right elements of his party, to this stalemate, has taken me past contempt. I don’t think there’s even a word for how disgusted I am with the current government and MPs.
28
I hesitate to criticize Prime Minister May, because I doubt anyone could do a better job here.
15
@William Fang, if you mean at speaking out of both sides of one's mouth, then yes, I agree.
3
I negotiate with myself for 2 1/2 years
Then my party rejects my plan
I keep saying my plan is the only plan
The Europeans are laughing at me
What should I do?
25
Our friends at The Economist have an interesting (if self congratulatory) take on the fundamental differences between the EU and the UK unspoken truths. (Charlemange column 1/26/19) The UK legal political system is fluid; claims based on tradition and principle - the very brand for "britishness" - are regularly tossed aside. The EU has lived through the jackboot and the knock on the door in the middle of the night, it is obsessed with rules and procedures that can not be changed at whim. The UK, much as it tries, does not get that the EU will not discard rules to keep the UK in.
31
Crazy thing is that the EU agreed on so many exceptions and special treatments for The UK in the past.
4
@R. McCue Thank you for this.
5
I had a discussion with a young Italian PhD student about this disconnect before the referendum. He couldn't understand how the British can feel anything but "European". I explained that not only is our legal system fundamentally different, we have to cross a sea to visit our neighbours, our borders haven't shifted after wars with our neighbours and we haven't experienced occupation for over 1000 years. Our whole mentality is different. DeGaulle was right - we are fundamentally unsuited to membership of such an organisation. Sadly, and acknowledging all the problems that will be heading our way, I feel we have a duty to our mainland allies to relieve them of the misery of our bloody-mindedness and sadly bid a fond farewell.
1
There is a very simple reason why Theresa May is opposed to a second referendum: she wants to stay on as prime minister, nothing else. That is why she sticks to her brexit deal, and that is why she is opposed to anything else. The minute she calls off Brexit by pulling article 50, or proposes a second referendum or anything else the goes against Brexit, half her party will join the opposition in a motion of no-confidence to topple her. She does not have the best of her country at heart, she's a career politician, just like Cameron, Johnson or Rees-Mogg to name a few.
10
@SJP
The UK political system unlike most others is straight up first past the post (FPTP) and, importantly, adversarial. Not FPTP presidential neither proportional representation (PR) and consensual, as is customary in the EU.
In not understanding this it is easy to draw a wrong conclusion from what may appear to be cut and dried evidence; and one often sees it here in otherwise well informed debate.
But for almost every line you write to be so plainly wrong is an achievement not to be underestimated.
Yet, I would argue it still has value, in that, in one paragraph you manage to highlight just how little the EU understands of almost anything that the UK stands for or believes in. Of course quite probably the reverse may also be true.
1
@SJP
I live in the UK now and have for almost 20 years.
I think you are absolutely correct, although I would say her primary objective is not necessarily her own career, but holding the Tory party together.
She is particularly in thrall to the "European Research Group" which is an organisation of hard-line brexiteers formed for the purpose of pushing their version of what leaving the EU should look like (and led by JRM).
4
Why say May is “raising the stakes” when there is little if any likelihood that the EU will agree to reopen any negotiations? And when Theresa May knows it?
7
Brexit is a mistake over immigration issues. Obviously building a wall is a bit hard and the Channel is an ineffective deterrent (although, without the Channel, the immigration problem would be much larger).
1
UK citizens are paying a high price for their racism just as predicted. As we are in the US right now, too.
27
A very ignorant post. EU membership means that the overwhelmingly white nations of the EU have a free pass to live in the UK, while the rest of the world (mostly non-white) faced increasingly high hurdles in order to control the total numbers, which reached record levels. Leaving the EU would mean end this racial disparity.
1
One of the reasons so many people from around the world have wanted to live in the UK is because of our racism. Have you been over to meet us? I wouldn't if I were you. We are revolting.
2
It's one of the great ironies of our day that some Brits voted for Brexit because they thought the EU was badly governed. Little did they know nothing can compare to the complete mess their own system was capable of.
96
What a clear exposition of a tangled issue. Thank you. One thought. If there is an amendment that forbids a no-deal Brexit (very possible), and if May gets no concessions from the EU, including no extension, (very likely) and if parliament still rejects the May plan (a seeming certainty) then: doesn't it follow that Britain will not exit the EU on March 29? Or is there another trapdoor I did not notice?
1
@Malcolm
Leaving the EU on 29 March is the default position.
There are two ways out of that:
1. the UK requests and the EU agrees to an extension
2. the UK withdraws its article 50 notice and remains. no consent from the EU is needed
18
Like others commenting here, I don't understand the resistance to a new referendum and disagree with the notion that it would represent a betrayal of democracy. The same logic would argue that we shouldn't have the opportunity to vote Trump out in 2020, because we already elected him once. I also don't get why such a major policy change was decided by a simple majority vote- a supermajority threshold makes much more sense when the proposed change is so drastic.
58
@OAO Disagree with your analogy. Electing a person president is not at all the same as voting for a specific policy outcome (such as legalizing marijuana or raising minimum wage or limiting property taxes). Presidents have platforms but retain the ability to “keep all options on the table.” That said, the 2016 vote was not legally binding, but is being treated by some as scriptural. And Brexit if it happens is likely to force people to truly live on spam spam spam bacon spam and spam.
3
There cannot be a second referendum as this would lead to wide spread social unrest in the UK
Read back to when Maggie Thatcher tried to impose the poll tax
2
the logic you are espousing is akin to saying, we are 2 years into trumps term, lets have a re-vote and get him out now. there was nothing in the referendum that says, well if its hard to accomplish, lets re-vote to change our mind.
2
It's obvious. Brexit was a terrible idea. Hold a second referendum, see what happens. If "Remain" wins, and to be fair, wait for one year and hold a third referendum. Whichever side wins the third time, that's it.
15
so your idea of competent democracy is best 2 out of 3 falls? thats just ludacris
4
Two years ago a busload of passengers had to decide which route to take. They chose one route and but later discovered a key bridge was out.
To Ms. May, leadership means driving the bus into the canyon rather than selecting another route.
123
I should be more eloquent and wax lyrical Jack, but you’ve described Brexit well.
8
@Jack - or, put another way (with a more appropriate transportation-related analogy):
"Captain, iceberg dead ahead!"
"Maintain course and speed."
8
May should call for another Brexit vote. Nothing that is actually possible will please the hardliners, many of whom appear to have severe personality disorders.
40
May needs to admit the 1st Referendum was fatally flawed and call for a quick 2nd referendum on BREXIT.
41
@Demosthenes And how would that second referendum be worded? Tricky when you get into the details.
2
Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. New referendum or hard Brexit. Those are the choices. Pick on Madam Prime Minister. Stop lying to Britain and yourself.
33
P.M. May seems utterly arrogant! Hold another vote now the public has a much better understanding of what Brexit would mean.
25
@jw,
We both know that May cannot do that.
Like here in the US of A, British conservatives demand 100% ideological purity in its members.
If May holds another Brexit Vote, her career in British politics is over.
They'd immediately hold another "no confidence" vote and this time she'd lose.
Reason and logic have no part in Boris Johnson's party.
7
The Conservative Party is not “ideology” pure since half of its members are Remain, including the majority of the Cabinet. A new referendum is not the solution since no one can agree what the solution is in the first place. You don’t hold
a second referendum just because you don’t like the outcome. It would be insulting to imply that the people who voted to leave were not informed enough. The government at the time spent a lot of time and money trying to persuade voters to vote remain so again its an insult to say voters were ill informed
2
@MARC Lampell
"It would be insulting to imply that the people who voted to leave were not informed enough."
But it would be true.
And it is not an insult.
And a second referendum is not because you don't like the outcome, but because 2 years later you have more information, and want the right to change your mind.
7
Utter denial of reality. I really don’t know what’s happened, it’s like a cult has enticed millions of people the public and the UK media and politics. Now it seems politicians can shamelessly lie or repeat demonstrable untruths on national television or the press without being held to account.
I say UK media and UK politicians, because everywhere else business continues as usual. Case in point, a video went viral earlier of Nigel Farage repeating the same lies, bluster and ignorance that is his main forte - but then a journalist twice called him on them and pointed out he was wrong. Shock! How did this happen?! It was RTE, in Ireland, that’s why. Meanwhile the BBC will still wheel Nigel out to repeat the same guff and not call him on it.
Or the other classic, a trade, law or economic expert with 40yrs experience being allowed to talk - but then, to be “fair to all sides”, an MP with a 2:2 in History then blusters away with “We’ll be fine! It’s all fearmongering! We survived the war didn’t we?”
And ‘the war’ (for which it’s many boomer devotees aren’t old enough to have experienced) features a lot. When discussing empty shelves and no food in a No Deal, it becomes “We survived rationing!” “We can dig for victory!”. I kid you not. “We beat the Germans and survived the blitz, No Deal is easy!”.
This is how a country collapses, through years of laziness, bluster and ignorance, leeching from the top on down. The Emperor has lost his clothes, and we can all see.
102
The only resolution of all of this interminable "bickering" is to have a second referendum and warrant the fact that staying in the EU is best for everyone.
A new referendum would be the FIRST VALID referendum: The British public is now well-informed that Brexit causes problems that were unknown in 2016. The first referendum was ill-informed. It should be regarded as invalid in substance.
A second referendum is not a betrayal of the first one. At last, truly democratic representation can win the day against populist reactionism of 2016.
35
There were plenty of lies on the Remain side too. And the facts of leaving - would there be a recession? if so, how deep? what would be the long term impact on growth? - still aren't known, since we still have no experience of actually trying Brexit.
At this point, it seems unlikely parliament would ever agree on what the referendum question or questions would even be, and if it did go ahead it would result in a bitter ugly divisive campaign, and if it lost the leave side would be unlikely to accept the result - just as the Remain side has refused to accept the result of the previous referendum, and has campaigned to undermine its legitimacy and reverse it through another vote.
1
May is quite simply delusional to think that the EU will back down on the backstop.
31
Everyone knows the EU will not reopen discussions. May thinks she needs to do this to prove Boris Johnson and others who claim they can get a better deal are lying.
The referendum is becoming stale. In a democracy, people have the right to change their mind (or not) every few years. Too much has happened, too many lies exposed, for Brexit to continue without a reality check.
84
So she'll destroy the Good Friday agreement that brought peace to Ireland and inflict great damage on the EU, which brought prosperity to Europe, for what? To hang on to her position for a few more months at best? Time to move on, Ms. May.
63
I am afraid Theresa May as well as many of her peers in Parliament are living in denial. Seems like they just do not want to see that “squaring the circle” is not possible - at least not in our “normal” reality.
But hey, if the US can afford a lunatic at the helm - why should the UK not be allowed the same? -
Unfortunately, too many good people will pay for this tragic mistake called BREXIT, otherwise one could lean back and enjoy the spectacle. This way the only one enjoying this is Putin, as a weakend EU is just what he likes.
76
Forget Brexit. Britain has a bleak future going it alone. They now have a chance to fix the Brexit mistake by putting forth another referendum to their citizenry, this one, hopefully, unencumbered by Russian interference. Call it “Brain,” as in right minded Brits using their brains to vote to “remain” in the European Union. The EU has its shortcomings but Britain is much better off working within the system to address them rather than bailing out without an adequate substitute plan.
22
The PM alone has resurrected Great Britian's reputation for understatement: "...there would be a limited appetite among our European partners," for her new plan.
10
The whole vote on Brexit was based on false promises and lies. Now as the truth is out sticking to Brexit is denying the truth.Maybe this will produce an United Ireland and an independent Scotland. If Wales will stick with England or London becomes Singapore on Thames the Brexiteers will have destroyed the rest of the so called British Empire.
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Brexit typifies the English idiomatic proverb "you can't have your cake, and eat it too." Given that any post-Brexit trade relationship with the rest of Europe would require negotiations with the EU in Brussels anyway, as I rather doubt individual countries would seek independent trade relationships with Britain, as so doing would undermine the idea of the EU in the first place, it would seem to put Britain in the hard place of the proverb if they do indeed exit. It seems they want the benefits, but not the responsibilities that full EU membership carries.
On the other hand if they do leave, and other countries do make individual trade deals, if only via backdoor channels, it may, over time, force consideration on the validity of the whole EU idea in the first place. One that is very much a top-down bureaucratic layer imposed on cultures with centuries of fervent nationalism and self interest. It definitely takes time to see the value of the whole as compared to want to look out for one's own "tribe." The short interval since WW-II by historical standards has not likely been nearly enough, as the Brexiteers will testify to.
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@Patrick
Individual member states cannot strike trade deals with other countries.
One of the arguments for brexit is that the UK will be able to negotiate its own deals with other third party (non-EU) countries.
"It seems they want the benefits, but not the responsibilities that full EU membership carries."
Spot on. And the Europeans have a word for it: "cakeism".
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Almost before May finished talking the EU announced that it was preparing a document stating there would be NO revisiting or re-negotiating the Brexit agreement that's taken 2 years get.
May, most of the Tories, the DUP in Northern Ireland, and the hard Brexiteers still seem to think BoJo was right -- that the UK could have its cake and eat it too.
Even a 4 year-old knows that's not true.
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@Fred May inherited Brexit, she did not create or even decide it would be a vote of the people. She inherited the results from Cameron.
EU needs to hold firm and force the UK to crash out. Not out of spite, but in a brave move to enforce clarity. And to deny this silly political malfeasance another opportunity to infest the continent.
All this wrangling in London is a pathetic attempt by the leadership class to obscure their abject failures. England will survive, history will judge. Europe and UK need to move on.
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The UK crashing out on March 29 without a deal will be their version of a shutdown. Food, medicine, and other goods stranded at all the borders. Then it will be a game of chicken: who will blink first?
She's not on a collision course with anything, other than a no-deal Brexit. The EU has said they won't reopen negotiations, and they shouldn't. The Brits voted for this calamity, they are getting exactly what they deserve. I hope the EU doesn't bend even a millimeter, lest any other country thinking doing anything similar is a good idea.
We have a saying in German: stupidity must be penalized. Time to pay up, Britain!
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@Mike That'll be 39 billion pounds, please.
Brexit has one shining potential — to free Scotland from British union and at last create a united Ireland. With the waning influence of the catholic church on Irish politics, the hard times Brexit will bring to England and the desperate need for an open border with Ireland, there is no need for the protestants in Northern Ireland to fear reuniting the Emerald Isle — and more or less automatically rejoining the E.U. while they are at it.
With Scotland and Ireland out, the English conservatives can get on with living in their little isolationist fantasy land — and much the poorer for it.
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@Philip S. Wenz And then, I hope, the remainers can get together and guillotine the lot of them.
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Ironically Philip the unification of the island of Ireland and a definitively Independent Scotland may indeed be Brexit’s crowning glory. Unfortunate acronym FUKEW may well be, but Former Kingdom now England and Wales has a certain Gaelic lilt!!
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@Philip S. Wenz -- from Oregon this may seem a "good idea," but it's a total nonstarter.
In Scotland there's a lot of sympathy for the idea of secession, but the killing stumbling block are the EU limits on deficits -- Scotland on its own would need to make very big spending retrenchments. Projected North Sea revenues are falling too, making this an even uglier choice.
Casting the prods in North Ireland loose will just generate bloody hell, back to "the troubles" or worse. The idea that it was or is "the catholic church" that is the problem never made sense and doesn't now.
And though it may seem hard to imagine, the idea of the United Kingdom holds a lot more emotional sway for a great many more people than you might think.
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If Brexit were really an exercise in democracy instead of in mostly one party rule, obviously the voters would be given a chance to vote on a final plan instead of having it shoved down their throat by the ruling party. Instead, by a 2% margin, a small majority is trying to impose the vote for a vague idea of almost a constitutional amendment as a finished fait accompli plan the public never voted on concocted by a minority government. Or worse, Just Leave with no plan at all,
The first referendum campaign was filled with lies, misrepresentations, simple errors of calculation, and probable Russian meddling. Now that the British public has a much better idea of what Brexit would look like, they should be allowed to vote on the real plan rather than that pipe dream. Democracy is not supposed to be government leaders getting what they want by lying, either in Britain or in the United States.
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@Allfolks Equal - It may sound like splitting hairs, but the margin was not 2%. It was 3.8%, nearly the same margin by which Clinton beat Trump in the popular vote (4.6%).
Also, since that vote, YouGov has been conducting constant polling. Public opinion is essentially unchanged. Month by month the results shift one way of the other but remain within 2% of 50%, which is well within the margin of error of the poll.
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@Allfolks Equal
I agree - the first vote was for something so vague and undefined that it had nothing to do with what is now presented. It would seem the most democratic solution to give the people a vote on what is actually being proposed - now after all the lies have been exposed and the smoke screens have been lifted.
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The year after the referendum, both major parties pledged in their manifestoa to take the UK out of the EU and out of the single market if elected. The Conservative vote increased from 37% to 42% while the Labour vote increased from 30% to 40%. So 82% of votes went to parties who had promised to honour the referendum result. The parties that pledged to reverse Brexit or hold a 2nd referendum - including the SNP, the Lib Dems and Greens - all lost voting share and seats in parliament.
The timeline has been that in 2013 the Conservatives committed to holding a referendum on EU membership, on a straight Leave/Remain question. They then won a surprise majority in the 2015 election. The referendum was held and the Government, the Opposition (Labour Party), the Lib Dems, the Green, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein etc all campaigned for a Remain result. Despite this overwhelming (at least 80/20 among MPs) Remain advantage among the political class, Leave won by more than 1.3 million votes, and more people voted for Leave than have voted for anything in British electoral history. Parliament then voted - by a huge majority - to trigger Article 50 and take Britain out of the EU. 9 months after the referendum, the government acted on this. Then the Government and Opposition both won large increases in their votes and voting share after pledging to take the country out of the EU. We've had 2 general elections, one referendum, and parliamentary votes to get us here. Another vote won't get us out
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Oh, Mrs. May -- just give up this whole Brexit nonsense! Her unwavering commitment to see it through is not commendable. It's highly arrogant, to be honest.
I still don't understand why they think that a bare majority vote in a referendum in a snapshot in time necessitates such a blind, fanatical pursuit. Such a fundamental decision isn't left to a simple-majority, non-binding, public opinion referendum. It doesn't violate democratic values in doing so.
Perhaps Mrs. May should consider for a moment that what she might want to be remembered for is the one, at the last moment, to pull the United Kingdom away from the brink of its ultimate downfall. Not so terrible.
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Eh bien!! Her lame duck position is largely her own making, getting in political bed with perhaps the most difficult of Northern Irish Parties, seeking to maintain the breakdown of Stormont, all while NI voted Remain, totally ignoring any input from ... well anywhere for two years, her intransigence has been stultifying, as is a caving today second only to Mr Trump last week.
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Question for Brexiteers. Where does your food come from?
Their answer: The Supermarket.
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@rocky vermont
Food can come from the United States, Canada, Ukraine and the Americas free of the artificially high prices created by the EU farmers first policy.
Don't forget the moon. They can conveniently bring in food from the moon.
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@rocky vermont Or the DUP's helpful suggestion of the fish and chip shop.
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I fail to understand why there is resistance to a second referendum. Yes, the population voted to leave the EU, so the government made the effort to do so. Now new facts have arisen, time has passed - why not hold a second referendum to reassess?
After all, when Quebec wanted to leave Canada, they held a referendum. That failed, but time passed and new facts came to light and they held a second one. Once that failed the issue was settled. Granted, the two referendums were 15 years apart while the original Brexit was only 3 years ago, but still, why not hit the "confirm" button on the leave decision?
Of course, a second referendum will almost certainly fail for the Brexit side, which is why the Tories won't hold it, but fair is fair. If the population no longer wants to leave given the true facts of the matter, then that wish should be captured and fulfilled.
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@Curbside
You've answered your own question. Like McConnell in the U.S. Senate, the conservatives in Parliament are down to blocking everything they can, while offering nothing in the way of solutions. Brexit was always a scam. They don't want the curtain lifted.
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No-one wants to open the “lets have a revote” democratic Pandora’s box, save a few MPs and campaigners, which is scaring the majority of MPs away from the idea. And with a Hung Parliament, a vote for a new ref would need good numbers to back it, which won’t happen with scared MPs.
And in the general public, there are large tranches of the population who view a revote as a betrayal, and although a few scattered polls suggest Remain has an edge, no-one is really sure what the result would be - which again, does not help convince the people with the power to make a second vote happen.
As for the “true facts”, well, ‘true’ is always up for debate, particularly when people don’t like what it says. One man’s truth is another woman’s lies. There is too much cynicism or mistrust of people, on all sides. Too often the vested interests of Remainers are questioned by Leavers, as vice versa.
I don’t see a happy ending. EU or not, this is not going away - a schism right through all levels of UK society, marked by venom, mistrust, blame and hatred. Brexit is the elephant in the room when talking to people, as mentioning the subject and meeting a contrary voice will cause an eruption. Like Thanksgiving with Trump/Hillary voters, I guess. A vote that tells others all they need to know.
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@Mat Referendums are often a mistake and Brexit is shaping up as a mistake of historic proportions. The issue is that you can't really see a referendum as binding when it pits a specific policy idea (remain) against a deeply misleading pipe dream of an abstract idea (Brexit). Cameron was foolish for agreeing to it and May is foolish for giving up most of her negotiating leverage by insisting a new referendum isn't on the table. Remain is the only policy with close to majority UK public support AND potential EU support. Hopefully Parliament will eventually recognize that reality; otherwise this is most likely headed for a no deal Brexit that has considerably less popular support.
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This is a straightforward and accurate description of the current state of affairs in Parliament. Complete paralysis.
I am sitting here watching the debate in the House of Commons on BBC. It seems no one is shifting position, and many are in utter denial of reality.
Let's hope the Cooper-Boles amendment passes so there is at least some chance of avoiding a catastrophe on 29 March.
At least Trump can be voted out at the next election.
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