Terrible article - this is a completely different situation.
The fence on the Israel/Lebanon border is a sensor array that triggers a lethal response. The barrier to entry is not a fence/wall, but a high probability of death from an airstrike, mine, missile or bullet. Israel has excellent reasons for a lethal response, but the situation on US/Mexican border is different.
Are we really prepared to do that on the US/Mexican border? If, yes, what would be an acceptable body count for Mr. Stephens?
17
Last time I checked, animals don't respect geopolitical boundaries. A physical barrier this long will do no favors to endangered jaguars and populations of mule deer, big horn sheep and the 1,500+ other species that call this area home.
https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/68/10/740/5057517
12
Most articles on "The Wall" gloss over that many existing borders to which some would aspire, for example the Israeli border discussed here, allow the use of deadly force. Is America ready for this?
5
What we can learn from Israeli border security is their reliance on tech. On sensors to be precise. Funds then must be directed to computer station where sensor detection points to GPS locations and image identity of simply put, "Who's out there." Border Security needs to move into action and stop illegal entry.
If this works in Israel, a vulnerable area to threat and attack. Can we not look at the model and adapt it:Fence construction as needed. High tech sensor installation, Computer Stations and additional border personnel.
Welcoming Immigrants is integral to U.S. History. But, can we afford the cost of Welfare, Health Services, Social Services, food stamps, Housing - all that poor expect and all that we support for so many who come from Latin America and the middle east.
4
I’m happy to say that I finally agree with a Bret Stephens column. Yes to technology and cross-border-cooperation. No to a wall. Yes to letting desperate people bring their labor and desire to be Americans to this country. No to a cascade of idiotic lies about terrorists and drugs and “coyotes” and, well, everything relating to illegal immigration. We are witnessing the degradation of a once vital political party by the stupidest man ever to sit in the Oval Office. A man who has no trouble ordering children taken from parents and then lying about it. A man who believes that anyone who complains about not getting paid is obviously a Democrat. A man who will declare a “national emergency” to build his stupid wall leading to the constitutional crisis that his ignorance and arrogance have been suggesting for two-plus years. Dear GOP. You built this monster of stupidity and cupidity. Watch as you become his unintended victims.
8
It helps if you shoot people who cross the line.
3
As to south-american immigration, I wouldn't protest if these people would simply learn American English. Why should I, a native American, learn Spanish or whatever it is they speak, to do business with them? The men who service my lawn don't speak my language, but I have to pay their fees when I can't tell them what to do or not do. Last spring, a couple of them walked on a dormant bed of flowers and when I chided them, waved their hands at me and mumbled something, probably not friendly. Talk about racism - these foreigners are more racist than Americans.
1
The words "smart" (as in smart fence) and "Trump" (as in Trump is a liar) are mutually exclusive.
4
These are just one example of the walls used in Israel. There are also 30 foot high concrete walls as well along the west bank.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier
4
The United States is not an occuyping force.
7
Very informative piece, full of terrific information, none of which is relevant to the present idiotic situation in the United States.
Here, we are held prisoner by a madman who promised his base "a big, beautiful wall". They won't be happy with anything else, so a wall it must be. Trump knows that anything less than some kind of wall will be the death of his presidency.
9
How about sub-contracting the Israelis to do our border security?
2
This article is a joke to try to compare a wall in isreal as a legitimate solution to a cheaper solution yes electric fencing and razor wire with lookout towers is fat and effective to set up but how many billions does isreal get from us for their security our wall is pennies compared to what we give them. What about the effects mentally on those passing back and forth or living along when they have to view that. That in no way even looks like it should be given that name and looks like a third world solution. Who puts up electric fences and razor wire. Its a quick solution but you still have idiots hurting themselves on them and then a politition or the media tries to defend them look at the section of wall and how it works in cnns failed attempt of saying its not needed. Truly a wall with slats is more appealing to the eye and im sure could be fited easilly with our latest technology. Without visually appearing to be in a war zone. Were taking down our old watchtowers along the beaches that used to be used to spot subs. Those isreally stations look like exactly what they are who do you think your fooling.
2
Good to know at least one NY Times employee believes in a wall or barrier.
2
But of course. we can't learn from anyone else. Especially from a foreign country when we continue to be as xenophobic as we are. This is only highlighted to the extreme in this so called administration backed by a sorry lot of Republicans.
3
Bret, let me point how the failure of thinking in this piece.
We have a 2000 mile border with Mexico - Israel only needs to shore up relatively short borders - Not something that is even 1000 miles long.
Also the Israels's when they see negative activity on the enemy side of the border, they send in an armed Drone to shoot the people. Can you hear the hue and cry if the US used an armed drone and killed ever person who was seen trying to enter the country illegally?
You see your op-ed does not address our problem, Comparing Israeli border security to US border security is like comparing apples and Oranges.
15
When are people (that includes op-ed columnists visiting Israel) going to realize that almost nobody, including Herr Trump, wants a wall. The wall is only a metaphor, a metaphor that propelled Trumps metaphoric rise to the Presidency. Discarding the metaphor puts Trump in the position of Hans Christian Andersons king, his metaphor exposed to disinfecting sunlight . Or, alternatively, and perhaps additionally, removing the virtual reality glasses from his purblind acolytes.
4
According to a breaking article in the WaPo, "Trump backs away from the idea of declaring emergency for border wall."
There's a bunch of Trump piffle and waffle, and nobody would be surprised to see him try to reverse course again, but the meaning is simple: Trump knows he is up a tree and he must come down on his own .
He's trying to avoid the beating and humiliation this entails; his minions are starting the whining "you need to give us something, meet us half-way." But "the Wall" is over.
5
As a friend once put it: "When all is said and done there will be a lot more said than done."
That's America. A Lot of talk about guns, drugs, health care, the debt, global warming. Not much getting done.
Same with the border. Porous for 50 years. Nobody seems to mind very much. There isn't going to be a wall, or a 'smart wall'. At most, maybe some extra fencing in certain 'strategic' sections. But certainly a lot more talk, now and in the future.
40
Do we want people who will walk the entire length of Mexico carrying their babies in this country? Yes! They are brave, dedicated and desperate to save their children. A wall of any kind is not the answer to my way of thinking. A better, faster immigration system to help these people have the safe and prosperous lives they long for is the answer. My relatives escaped certain death from famine in Ireland to come to America even though many here hated them. Those Irish Americans helped build New York and Boston.
84
@Mickey McGovern - So EVERY person from South of the Border carrying a baby AUTOMATICALLY qualifies for immigration....If we let one family in...then it seems we have to let the rest in as well.....or is this a first come first serve issue...And then, once they arrive...when they drop another baby on U.S. Soil....that automatically confers citizenship.....They will play the game on the good old U.S Suckers....Mexico should handle this issue !. NOT the US. GET REAL....its not going to happen.
2
I was under the impression that Republicans were allergic to studying any other nations systems in order to gain insight. We would certainly never learn anything about how to have a modern health care system, for example, by studying the systems of other industrial democracies who have somehow, inexplicably, managed to provide universal coverage for their citizens at much lower cost than ours does.
But on border security, ahh, now we should take a page from a nation about the size of New Jersey, with a restive minority population, some of whom are under military occupation, and surrounded by enemies in the world's worst neighborhood.
Our border in question is with our neighbor with whom we haven't had a military conflict in over a century. This neighbor is also one of our biggest trading partners. A sane approach to our Southern border be one that works to the benefit of people on both sides without insulting and degrading our friends, neighbors and business associates in Mexico and Central America. Then the United States could put more resources into controlling drugs that enter through our ports of entry, keeping better track of those visitors who fly to the US and then become illegal immigrants by overstaying their visas, and ramping up the immigration courts and facilities along the border to be able to handle the increase in asylum applications without separating families or killing small children.
2
I am not convinced that the wall is anything but a prop to play political games with. Unfortunately, at the cost of many who have neither a direct influence on the process nor are the blame for any of this.
The migrants are not the problem, they are a symptom of a bigger and more complex problem: the violence in and dysfunction of their home countries. The solution is relatively easy, although impossible, I am afraid. That is: forget ideologies and look at it in a pragmatic manner. In the short term, accept the migrants, accommodate them, and utilize their labour potential. Given that apparently many industries are suffering due to labour shortages, I could perceive a possible win-win situation.
In the long term, the US could help stabilize the aforementioned countries, like it used to destabilize them when it was politically and let us not forget, ideologically expedient. The guideline here should be: make the welfare of the US essential to the welfare of those countries. If those countries prosper few of their citizens would take the risks and hardships to walk to a country, the entrance of which is far from sure, and face a future that is highly uncertain. If the home country is safe and prosperous, migrants might want to go back.
There is a Dutch saying expressing a willingness to abandon a cherished position for the sake of a solution or compromise: to jump over one's shadow. I am afraid this shadow is too immense to jump over.
3
The Gaza border is somewhat similar to ours, so we want to allow snipers to kill anybody who looks like they might get into our country? We don't have cooperation, they don't have drug money working against them. Sure we will use tech to back up and in some cases to be the primary solution. We don't use say rubber bullets or bean bags either, tear gas gets some stirred up.
1
Focusing on the border is a mistake. If we spent the 5 billion Trump wants for a wall on policing employers to make sure they only hire legal residents we would make a much bigger difference. Although this would create huge hardship for undocumented aliens, we would not have ICE destroying families and raiding homes as we do now.
1
"As an additional precaution, Jerusalem is spending an estimated $600 million to replace about 20 kilometers of the fence with a concrete wall, mainly to provide greater peace of mind to the 162,000 Israelis who live near the Lebanese border."
If you clik on the link in article it describes this project as a 130 Kilometers (not 20) replacing the fence that will be a 9 meter(29.5 feet) high concrete wall not a fence "for greater peace of mind." Sounds like President Trump's beautiful Wall. So depending on location different walls, or fences, call it a "wence" are needed for peace of mind.
And the UN maintains a peacekeeping force of 10,000 troops on the Lebanese side of the fence/wall. Paid for in part by US contributions to the UN. Apparently, the troops aren't considered sufficient to maintain security for the Israeli residents in the fence vicinity so they determined a wall would contribute to the security in this area.
Whether the US needs the same type of "wence" as Israel certainly there are plenty of border security systems that could inform what works for our purposes.
1
Yes Bret, that would be smart. 21st century technology - except, as you pointed out, the rsponse to a threat is a little more then we wpould stomach. Lets call in an airstrike on a few familes with children in Mexico before crssing into the US or perhaps just after we mow them down. 2 different threats. Of cousre the tech and monitoring is great but the response time would be far different . Logistically we need lots more men to deal humanely, not drones to shoot these people.
1
Gee, why hasn't Jared Kushner, the genius of Mideast politics told us about this effective and proven method of border security.
Shouldn't he have been advising 'ole 'dad' about this amazing fence in Israel. Or, at the very least, asked his buddy Bibi to lend us a few security consultants to help us work this out.
It's the least we could expect in return for moving the embassy to Jerusalem.
3
Everyone - Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, ex-President Obama, loved the wall until President Trump proposed it. What is Bret Stephens’ argument against it? A high wall prevents the hordes from climbing over it. A deep wall is hard to climb under. A few areas not walled are easier to patrol. Are we supposed to let everyone in? No immigration laws? As much as the importance of a wall is downplayed, it discourages trafficking of drugs and children and encourages would-be immigrants to apply lawfully. Hence, build the wall.
2
It is not only scary but hypocritical when Bret Stephens, a apologist for Israel can use it's border fence as a condemnation for Trump's obsession for a bigger wall along our southern border. I would point out that Israel uses military force and long range snipers to kill any Palestinian who approached the border fence area let alone the fence itself. I can't determine whether Mr. Stephens is rebuking Trump or defending Israel's bloody suppression of the Palestinians.
4
Why is a fence between "two sworn enemies" a model for one between Mexico and the USA? I thought they were amicable trading partners, at least until Trump came along.
9
The Trump administration refuses to give an itemized invoice to the Congress & American taxpayers to justify the $5.7 Billion they demand.
Trump Corp. suffered multiple bankruptcies, stiffed workers in Atlantic City and was a fraudulent, failed entity until The Apprentice & Russian criminals provided a bail out.
Trump- a one trick pony- thinks intransigence is great negotiating- as though he can play chicken with federal services, homeland security (air, water, food, airports, FAA, FDA, CDC, coast guard, etc.) to prop up his crumbling presidency before Mueller's report.
His stance is unpatriotic; he serves his own political security not ours!
9
There is a similar simple concertina 'fence' with lots of sensors etc being built along the Afghan Pakistan border - to keep out the Afghan [and Indian] terrorists. The Italians built a double wire fence in Libya to keep their colonial occupation 'safe'. It worked while it lasted.
3
If we redirected some of our military surveillance hardware to border security that would be a vast improvement. The ability to loiter for many hours, guided from anywhere in the US and capable of reading license plates from 30,000 feet? That, coupled with the use of drones, etc would eliminate the need for a 12th century wall at much less cost. Adding a few hundred Border Patrol agents wouldn't hurt either.
5
A dumb wall was doubtless never the plan. Feats of engineering these days are "smart" by definition.
The IQ of the Trump wall is not the issue. It's the muscle. The Israeli fences protect primarily against stealth. The Southern barrier must have the ability to withstand the force of tens of thousands of illegal aliens rushing the border at all locations vulnerable to that tactic. Government data show there are +/- 50k apprehensions or "inadmissibles" per month at the Southwest border.
Recall: D elites erected an 8-ft high 4-mile long fence around its convention site to keep the Bernie Bros and other "baskets of deplorables" away even as they argue that walls don't work to protect America from the invading terrorists, rapists, drug dealers, gangs, murderers, and dare I say, Democrats.
5
The fact that Trump has touted Israel's wall built within the West Bank as a success in defense of his proposed border wall, but that Stephens has completely glossed over that one in this article, is a huge oversight. Perhaps it is because walls are not that cut and dry in terms of easy security, and that, in the case of Israel's wall, it is recognized as internationally illegal - not to mention demeaning of those on the other side of the wall.
3
@Sara
'International laws' don't matter when a suicide bombing campaign is relentlessly being waged against a populace within the legal borders (not to mention that would be illegal even against people living in contested areas). The order or business is to stop the killing if the other side won't stop. There was zero wall there since '67. It didn't magically come from nowhere as this disingenuous post seems to suggest. the wall demeans no one. Its the result of an inability to negotiate under an illegal murder campaign which you haven't repudiated (yet).
4
The last paragraph is the crux of the story. We are NOT facing an implacable armed enemy. Yes, we do need a viable immigration policy.
4
The borders make sense for the Israelis because they are surrounded by populations that want to erase their nation. Our southern border is different as it is the hungry and tired looking for work who want to come in and right across the fence there is a big "HELP WANTED" sign lit up in neon. As long as we want them to come here, it is irrational to build a wall. In terms of security: The murders at OKC, Columbine, Aurora, Oak Creek, 9/11, Charleston, Orlando San Bernardino, Sutherland Springs, Las Vegas, etc. were all committed by terrorists either born here or came through the front door.
I like mixed salads and fresh veggies with my meals and I know who puts all of that produce on my grocer's shelves. On the morning of Thanksgiving, while driving to my son's home I passed about 30 short brown men busily digging up sweet potatoes. If we prevent "those people" from coming in, how are we going to feed ourselves?
From Ronald Reagan, 1980: Fences do not make sense. Working with the people and governments to establish a guest worker program does. Then they can come here, work, and pay taxes.
2
We need border security, but that doesn't mean 'wall' as the sole solution. Or, even a solution for most of the border. I agree that Israel has a very effective deterrent with their fencing, but we have 1000s of miles; Israel is a tiny country and the area under attack is very tiny.
Rather than determine 'what' to do for security, the president should ask for money for security, and Congress should budget for it. Then experts should determine the how, what, and where. How are we going to expel those here on expired VISAs? How are we going to stop asylum seekers from entering the US without having applied before entering. The former is a large percentage of illegals, the latter is a crisis in that our laws say they can enter without approval and ask for it afterwards. It's really our immigration laws that must change, but Congress has no interest. And those asking for e-Verify - great idea! It already exists! How many in California, the state with the highest number of illegal immigrants, use that system? Are interested in using that system? Or, is California so inundated with illegal immigrants and so reliant on them to do their house and lawn work not to mention farm work that they are in the process of becoming Mexico - with representatives that are Mexican, just because they approve of illegals voting in elections.
2
Our borders are not military zones. Odd how nobody mentions the biggest, longest wall ever built by man, "The Great Wall of China" that was built to keep out the invading forces. Built over mountains, through valleys and some of the most difficult terrain in the world. Even after millions of workers slaved to build it, what's it purpose in the modern world??? A tourist destination - they only thing Trump knows how to put his name on - golf courses!
There are much, much better ways to have a "smart" border, "Alexa, is anyone trying to cross the border where they shouldn't?"
Rational decisions, with all points explored, are needed for solutions. We do not have rational people in the Oval Office.
nnn bbMr. Stephen's take the time to read the outcome of previous land seizures on the border during the Bush Administration. There was no recourse for the sloppiness and haphazard approach the government took and some cases remain in the courts. Land owners are opposed to the wall and see no National Security threat. It is a manufactured crisis that has caused unnecessary stress and chaos for an untold number of people and complete dysfunction within the government. An agreement was reached and agreed upon between Congress and the President for the budget and 1.6 billion for the wall. This was not the first time Trump backed out overnight. Congressional Republicans had a duty to the citizens they represent to be outraged by the Trump flip. It is impossible to have faith or trust at present in this government when those leading are so empty of common sense
There are significant simplicities in this article. How often do we hear the Israeli military has engaged and killed a number of people along their border. No discussion that with a fence, electronic sensors, drones and other means to detect crossings it is too late. Our laws require care once they are in our custody. That entails food, shelter, healthcare, education and other benefits. I have not seen reports of "caravans" of thousands rushing the Israeli border.
Stephens and others lament that a wall can be breached. Stephens uses the example of tunnels. That is a long laborious process... unlikely to be accomplished by a "caravan" of eight to 10 thousand. Any barrier can be breached. Walls, fences and other barriers are intended to discourage mass crossings so Border Patrol agents can respond in an organized manner.
Finally, for commenters to this article who say we should welcome with open arms those who come. We have an organized immigration process. Perhaps it should be expanded. To what level? I ask Bret Stephens and those who want a more open process... what is your limit? The UN estimates there are over 68 million refugees displaced by violence and extreme conditions. That does not include hundreds of millions of people who want to migrate for economic reasons. How many of those tens of millions do you want to sponsor? Place yourself in a Central American country looking north. If you see welcome arms and no barrier, how many "caravans" can be accepted?
5
First, the US is not at war with Mexico, and hasn't been for more than 100 years. There is no military threat on the border. Immigrants don't want to attack us, but to mow our lawns. So it's a fairly pointless comparison.
Second, as Israel has been the aggressor (regardless of justification) in its most recent military incursions, it certainly wouldn't want a strong wall preventing its forces from crossing the border into Gaza or Lebanon.
Third, the US-Mexican frontier is 2000 miles, much of it through some of the most remote and rugged terrain in North America. In short, there are few points of useful comparison.
2
"(...) and contribute their labor for everyone’s betterment."
Wise words. We loved this article.
Positions for cashiers, attendants, waiters, cleaning services, to mention just a few cases, are available in thousands of cities.
Waiting times are now, by far, longer than a year ago. Many business managers are overwhelmed at peak hours, when they have to deal with customers ordering via internet, arriving at their windows in their vehicles, or buying inside their stores.
Billions of dollars at stake for lack of personnel. "Help Wanted" signs everywhere.
This is not fiction. We could easily check how is the real world. Just by walking.
Millions of Americans would love to sponsor the thousands that are willing to live far from the gangs, that kill humble human beings in Central America.
Just check the markets.
...
I have no serious disagreements with this column. I can but hope that Mr. Trump would read it--though even with the pictures, it might be beyond his attention span given his distaste for PDBs.
Fantastic article. I have been on that border several times.
The border crisis in the US was created by white nationalists like Stephen Miller to stigmatize Brown people . It has very little to do with a national security threat.
I love the part about women having longer attention spans!
2
@DLP
Wait, what were we talking about?
How long will we permit this Trumper-tantrum to continue???
I believe op ed writers are either part of the problem or part of the solution. I wholly agree with Stephens’ observations here. Well done! But so what? Saying the two political parties should solve this is not being part of any solution.
The real problem here is that Trump and McConnell are being irresponsible and reprehensible by holding the country hostage in order to win, not in order to enhance border security. The Democrats have repeatedly shown their interest in such security and the fences Stephens so wonderfully describes.
It is time that Republican Op Ed writers start attacking the irresponsible procedures of Trump and McConnell. It is their behavior that is the core of folks suffering from the shut down, not whether the “Wall” is a good idea or bad.
So what? Bret Stephens, unless you think a multi-billion dollar steel or cement wall is needed, stand up and be part of the solution. Tell your Republican followers to be vocal in stopping this horrible charade that punishes so many just for political gain. Be part of the solution.
Israelis have earned the problems they have. Maybe we'll get there too, but in the meantime the wall is really about keeping Mueller at bay. Expect the crisis to go on.
3
@phil morse
How have they 'earned them'? By not wanting to be slaughtered in Arab armies in 48, 67, 73 and by the 'Palestinian' bombing campaigns of the 90s and 00's? Imagine people not wanting to die. Insanity.
3
Probably the best most concise and reasonable idea I have seen and it didn't get political. Well done now if only someone would listen to reason. fat chance. I have said for a long time that we are now run by a government filled with former lawyers whos former job was paid to argue and they longer they argue and continue arguing they keep getting paid and keep their job and employer happy. I especially like the 12 century versus 21st century reference. I presume the editors read these comments and I think this piece illustrates that instead of continuing to argue your pint of view which I think agrees no matter side you are on is beyond tiresome. Offer solutions.
When you call an airstrike on any suspect approaching the boarder, even a fence is unnecessary... Apples and oranges.
While Trump's 'Wall' is as idiotic as the man, looking at a heavily militarized border as the ideal?!?!
Israel and the US bring out the worst in each other, and it's a shame.
1
Bret, I think there are several key differences between the situations in Israel and the southern border of the US. First, anyone trying to enter Israel through their fences will either be killed (if they are deemed to be terrorists) or quickly sent back over the border. Not the case in the USA. Second, Israel's border fences are much, much shorter than our southern border. Electronic monitoring of their fences can get resources to the trouble spot in a very short amount of time, to deal with the incursion. Not so in many areas of our southern border.
It's hard to keep people out when they aren't threatened with quick bodily harm or quick return to their point of origin. Unless we are willing to change our laws to say "illegal entrants will be quickly deported", people will continue to come. And if they can gain entry without going through staffed entry points ("official" border crossings) they will certainly try that route.
Democrats have been saying all along, which apparently you've missed Bret, that they want new technology and additional along the US Southern border, as well as maintenance of the existing barriers. That's why they are willing to fund "border security" but not the wall.
So, why do Republicans continue to maintain a wall is absolutely necessary to secure the US Southern Border? Two guesses and the first doesn't count.
3
Ms. Lund, the immigration bill that was passed 53 years ago DID AWAY with quotas based on national origins. The one that established the quotas was passed in 1924 and it was aimed to keep out Asians, Jews, and Catholics. In my opinion, that is the system that Trump and Miller want to re-establish. I'm hoping you do not.
I don’t know how it can be achieved but I support impenetrable border security. The goal is to have not a single person to be present illegally in the US of A.
2
Mr. Stephens, I thought your article was well-written, until you decided to put the blame on our current impasse on both Democrats and Republicans. Democrats have always said they were interested in discussing and funding border security, which would include high-tech devices and other things that you have described in your article. However, Republicans, taking their cue exclusively from the manchild in the Oval Office who is currently throwing a temper tantrum demanding a concrete or steel slatwall or whatever, and will not discuss anything else. Besides, Trump is not interested in any type of wall or fencing that you have described in your article, he needs a big beautiful concrete or steel wall as a testament to his overarching need to feed his ego.
1
A very sensible approach. Therefore it is one Trump would reject.
2
All of this is completely irrelevant. Israel deals with a determined and well-trained military style enemy which, by the way, is much more legitimate that Israel's protection--for itself--of the lands it has stolen. But, to the point, those trying to come across the border from the South are mostly simple civilians, women and children who are simply trying to advantage of international law about refuge and amnesty. Stopping the big threats, like drugs, from coming in has nothing to do with a wall and, of course, all of the stuff about evil coming across the border is pure lies. The only real issues are Trump's weird ego and the Republican Party's acquiescence to it.
3
The Lawyers’ Employment Act, initiated on January 20, 2017 is alive and well. Thanks 45’s base...
1
My hearing of what the Democrats are saying is exactly what you suggest. Forget the concrete or big costly steel slats and let's use technology and the border patrol. When I visited the border in remote Arizona that is exactly what I saw- lots of border patrol trucks and elevated towers with probably IR sensors on top. Even with a wall we would need the same thing to cover for all those who get over/past a wall.
2
"Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing in places where it’s missing and call it, for political effect, an “Israeli-style barrier”?"
This question is premised upon a rational discussion about border security, but that's not happening. We have a conflict between a self-centered, petulant president willing to employ any means to score a "win" and an opposition equally determined not let him have it. The President's party has no real desire to "build the wall" either (or they would have funded it while they were in the majority), but they also have no backbone and won't step up to control him. This will go on until it costs one side politically.
America, in 2 years there will be another election. Don't tolerate this any longer. Elect some grownups.
2
There is a real national emergency - its name is Trump. Until we are finally rid of him, nothing else matters.
4
Trump specifically wants a wall because it’s a word with only one syllable while the phrase “smart fence packed with electric sensors” has ten. Too complicated for Trump and much of his base. In response to your suggestion Brett, Trump would just say “sound bite me.”
3
Finally, intelligence enters the fray.
3
Of course, the muti-faceted, technological approach makes more sense than constructing "Trump's Folly" - which is essentially what Pelosi and the Democratic legislators intend to do. It is not a bi-partisan problem as often suggested, by conservative intellectuals. It is a Donald Trump/Mitch McConnell problem, backed by spineless Republican sychophants
1
"Fixed fortifications are a monument to human stupidity" -- George S. Patton
Illegal immigration will not stop until we start punishing their employers. We need to confiscate the assets of businesses that employ undocumented workers. This is already done to drug dealer/smugglers.
Bankrupt a few farmers, restaurant owners and construction companies and the rest will fall into line very quickly.
If people aren't willing to see their neighbor lose his house because he employed illegals then they are not serious. All they are looking for is scapegoats and illegals are the perfect choice.
4
@TR
TR, this is the most brilliant comment I’ve yet to hear about this issue: confiscate the assets of those who hire undocumented workers.
If the country sees a perp walk of everyone from CEOs to soccer Mom’s, the issue would be quickly resolved.
And, asset confiscation is not only used for drug dealers, some jurisdictions even confiscate cars of drunk drivers and speeders, so there is ample precedent for your idea.
The funny part of your article is that the Israeli fence is on the border of "two sworn enemies".
That makes sense of course.
What doesn't make sense is putting up fences, walls, barriers, steel obstacles and anything else between two ALLIED countries. Just saying.
1
When we were patrolling that fence on the Golan Heights the standing order was to open fire 360 in case of a breach, a shoot to kill is a big part of the effectiveness of the barrier. That is not feasible on a peaceful border, not workable when you deal with mothers and kids, not terrorists. or so I hope.
2
I don't think the Israel connection will fly with many on the Left, unfortunately.
1
Yes--walls beg for tunnels.
They also encourage "Them" hatreds--and so missiles.
They also encourage "boat people"--Florida is a common destination. But the US has two enormous coastlines. It's only a matter of time.
The long run solution is raising the standard of living--and politics--in Central America (and Africa!).
The short run goal is raising the standard of US politics.
2
The Israeli fence is the most functional fence in the world. It is not inexpensive but it is an "informational fence". Electronic devices obove within and in the ground deceminate constant information plus AI to separate natural "noise" from "artificial" to detect human activites related to crossing. This masterpeace of journalism points to the most important issue in modern fencing. An active fence is a requirment. Trump suggestion for the border fence is irrelavant and waist of money.
5
“Green is the traditional color of Islam.”
Green is the color which happens to be associated with ‘truth’ in a number of languages. Es verdad.
And if Mr. Stephens is going to keep playing cheerleader for the IDF, it wouldn’t hurt to mention some of the less savory elements of their military policy. See: The Hannibal Directive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
I suspect that President Trump is more interested in building a Wailing Wall than securing the border with Mexico.
When you consider that the vast majority of so-called illegal immigrants come into our country through legal points of entry, that drugs come into our country through legal points of entry, that more Americans are killed every day by gun violence than Fox News could identify as having been killed by so-called illegal immigrants over the past 15 years, then what we are left key is a wall that is nothing more than a monument to white supremacy.
1
"Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing in places where it’s missing and call it, for political effect, an “Israeli-style barrier”?"
You know exactly why
This is the same tactic the republicans used against Obamacare (named by republicans, who then regretted it because it was popular) The point is to see if they're crafty enough to get people to vote against themselves. It matters not one iota whether anything is good or bad, it's just a control-freak power play.
Sadly, they've found quite a lot of really easily-led zombies in the country.
1
“If we really want a secure border” we should try to repair the destruction we caused by using the CIA and mercenaries to overthrow Central American governments putting autocratic murders in office and fix our dependence on drugs so the cartels won’t be killing and terrorizing people in their home countries. The old saying that people apply to Iraq holds for Central America. We broke it, we own it. It is way past time to fix it.
So now,in your mind, were'e living in the middle east with Mexico threatening to shoot missiles at Los Angeles?Are the two situations really comparable?Are the 99.9% of Mexicans coming into California to pick our crops really that big a danger?Trump is right when he says that walls are a medieval phenomenon.Do you really want to return to this glorious period when they built walls around victims of the plague?You've finally taken Trump's bait and I hope you can break the line before he's hauled you into his ideological boat.
1
Your last line cuts to the chase: "If we really wanted to secure the border, we...would make it easier for them to arrive through the front door."
Unfortunately, the xenophobic, ultra-nationalist fear mongers who are the Trump administration aren't interested in that, nor apparently is Congress. There has been more than ample opportunity for serious people to engage in serious thought about solving the serious...and complex...immigration problem.
Nonetheless, Congress keeps kicking the can down the road, while the Trump administration keeps kicking would-be immigrants in the behind.
What we have is a government that isn't interested in dealing with complex issues, unless they serve their own interests. That is, both literal and emotional border insecurity, not security.
The Left would have us believe that enforcing the rule of law over our own sovereign borders is “immoral”. What???
3
Ugh. It’s unfortunate that Mr. Stephens even gives the idea of a wall consideration, let alone an endorsement in “smart” form.
Problem is, any wall isn’t “smart” for America. It’s antithesis to our ideals and founding values. We’d lose a noble piece of who we are with a wall. It will be the symbol of victory for the xenophobics amongst us.
Am I for open borders? Absolutely not. I’m just for sensible reform that doesn’t treat our North American neighbors as though they are terrorists with whom we are at war. For every “thug” that crosses there are hundreds/thousands of good families, women and children, in search of opportunity in the Land of Opportunity, opportunity that was not available to them in their home counties. Oh, and some of them are fleeing actual persecution.
And I’ll admit openly that Democrats need to get a bit tougher at the border: they can’t be seen as the “open borders” party or elections won’t fall their way. It would be very helpful if Democrats would state explicitly what they would be willing to do to secure the border. But never a wall!
1
@KD - if you don't believe in defending the border with whatever happens to be effective, then you are indeed for open borders. If you do not believe in deporting those who break in, you are for open borders. You cannot have it both ways.
2
@DRS - Not sure quite how you equate being "against the wall" to being "for open borders." I'm for many effective strategies to secure our borders, even deportation in some circumstances. I'm just not for a wall. Why so hard to understand?
"Whatever" happens to be effective... Tons of things would be effective, yet unconscionable, like calling airstrikes on whoever comes near the border, for example.
While a wall may be effective (nut not even sure that Trump's "concrete barrier" would be), there are other, more palatable, ways to secure the border just as effectively.
Yes, when you are surrounded by people who have vowed to wipe you off of the face of the earth, you are entitled to the best security money can buy. However, as far as I can tell, the people on our southern border - want to join us - not destroy us. Given the chance, the DACA kids want to become citizens.....to be part of the American fabric...not come at us with grenades. So, you really shouldn't compare the two.
1
@Here's the Thing - they want to join us by breaking the law. They want to join us and change the culture to suit them. They want to join us and vote almost exclusively for liberals. This is not acceptable.
4
Will we then build a smart fence up North on the Canadian Border?
The problem we have with illegal immigration bears no resemblance to Israels. Surely, Stephens isn't suggesting electronic surveillance followed by airstrikes. We have many times more border to protect and using the military for border security has been tried with disasterous results. Just another in a line of rediculous NYT op eds but it's an improvement over the absent minded professors support of AOC regarding marginal tax rates.
2
Yo, Democrats, are you listening? Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Schumer, I implore you to back up your oppo to Trump's 12th century wall with a credible alternative. Put on a big media event showing the effectiveness of 21st century high technology, sensors etc. Show the American people you have a cost effective alternative. Don't mouth it; show them with a media savvy display. Otherwise, this clown will have a good chance of outmaneuvering you -- again.
3
"Yet the Israeli experience also suggests that the best way to protect a border is to rely on the tools of the 21st century, not the 12th."
If you're talking logical, yeah sure, a Tech fence is the most effective.
But you're talking about the Trump base and what he promised them. No need to talk sense any further.
1
What America should build is a refugee center. It is less expensive to care for people and help them find places where they belong than to militarize. We should extend that effort to helping create peace and stability here on our own continent. When it was white people coming from Europe, we create facilities on Ellis Island and in neighboring states. That effort increased our prosperity. A poor Italian in the late 1800s is not different than a poor Guatemalan in the early 2100s. End the stupidity.
1
Ugh. Then what about all of our coasts? Are you going to put up a "smart fence" up and down the east and west coasts? What about our northern border? No, of course not.
This is just when republicans tried to sell everyone on this phony voting fraud scandal, which is also virtually a non-existent problem. Just like this boarder "crisis."
Oh, and by the way, Bret, NONE of the Texas counties which border Mexico want this stupid wall or fence or steel slats or whatever.
The Israeli border fence also has the advantage of leaving a clear sight line, so that unarmed civilians of the undesirable ethnicity can be shot at will by the fence builder's military firing from one side of the fence to the other.
Israel erected the wall to further damage Palestinians' quality of life and also as a symbol of a permanent impasse. Is this a mentality that the United States should even want to emulate? An in-your-face construction saying that your kind isn't welcome here? That the situation is so hopeless everyone is walled in place?
1
@NM - Israel erected the wall to defend themselves from Palestinian terrorists, who routinely attempt to kill Israel civilians. A border fence on the Mexican border doesn't say "we don't want you here." Is says "if you want to come here, you must do so legally, if and when permitted by our elected representatives.
5
Blah blah blah...more distractions and narratives that normalize Trump’s incoherent gibberish. And Republican complicity. The “national emergency” on our border only arose after Republicans lost the House and the very real revelations of “collusion” with Russia occured.
The discussion of walls has one goal: normalize Trump. This is about a big fat distraction. Democrats must emphasize that Republicans had 2 years to fund the wall and refused, Trump said he was proud of and responsible for the shutdown, Trump’s supporters are confused and Limbaugh and Coulter are con men. The effectiveness of walls has nothing to do with Trump’s promises. It has to do with playing his supporters for suckers. It’s the same as the tax cut.
@Joseph Huben That's nonsense. This problem has been going on for many decades to the benefit of those who profit from cheap labor and to the detriment of many blue collar workers. It has nothing to do with Trump except that he brought it front and center. American workers aren't suckers, they're looking out for their economic well being. The bitter partisan fight is an insult to most of us who don't benefit from cheap labor.
2
Haven't read all the comments but did anyone notice that the "Israeli Style Barrier" provided detection but it was the air strike that made it effective.
Make a heck of a tourist attraction on the southwest border. Always wanted to see an F-16 in action.
4
Israel is very different. The Israelis have to interdict small numbers of terrorists bent on hit-and-run attacks on civilians, which over there is seen as a military problem. We face a massive migratory invasion by people de facto promoting a Reconquista -- a population transfer. Those "immigrants" don't want to kill us; they want the benefits of a benign America, and don't much care how that impacts on America. These folks are not immigrants; they are invaders.
I guess that a many commenters are Easterners and simply don't experience the avalanche of illegal aliens who -- as in the California Central Valley -- have brought about a situation in which business, including government business, is now conducted in Spanish. Read some of Victor Davis Hanson's stuff, notably his book MEXIFORNIA to understand that.
Finally, the US simply cannot take in all the poor folks, the "wretched refuse" of all of Central America without unacceptably adverse consequences. But our elites don't care about that as long as they get the benefit of cheap domestic labor. Ditto for manufacturers who also want cheap labor, Democrats who want a new Democrat-voting population, and the Church which wants new congregants.
Add to all that the constitutionalization of what is ultimately a straightforward military border control operation -- Stephens is right on that -- and what you get is an insoluble mess that squanders our resources, stirs up domestic dissention and leads to disaster in the long run.
2
You just made the best case for the wall.Don’t tell the surgeon which scalpel use.
1
But you know Bret, that as Americans it goes against everything we believe to take ANY example from the rest of the world and use it here. That's just plain silly. If we didn't discover it or invent it then we simply don't need it. I mean, how does the rest of the world pay for health care when they don't model our systems? They must be stupid.
The sad fact is that Americans - especially our president, but also most people "in charge" - don't look to the rest of the world for ideas. We believe we're smarter than everyone else. So thanks for the effort, but I'm sure it was for nothing.
Sure Bret.
State Department reports on terrorism have expressed more concern about Canada, which unlike Mexico has been home to “violent extremists inspired by terrorist groups such as ISIS and al-Qaida and their affiliates and adherents,” as it said in 2017. When it comes to land crossings, Canada has more often been the source of terrorism suspects entering the U.S., though not in great numbers. By far the majority of people who arouse concern try to enter by air.
But yeah, lets spend close to $100 billion, (when it is all said and done...) on a border that our own terror experts says isn't the main problem.
Anything to make the Ruby Red Rubes feel empowered and less afraid. Just more money thrown away in a faux campaign rally.
Grifters are gonna grift. And the Marks cheer right along, as their pockets are picked clean.
Great thinking Bret.
1
We don’t need a fence a wall or war against immigrants. Just make it illegal to hire an illegal immigrant. If employers thought for even a second they could be fined or incarcerated for hiring the undocumented this nonsense would be manageable. Trump himself would be a criminal for hiring Guatemalan maids.
4
The issue you seem to glaze over is the fact it is HEAVILY gaurded by military with shoot to kill orders. Only hostile intents will approach that “fence”. We’re not at physical war with Mexico, were in conflict with illegals, cartel and drug smugglers. Oh how the left media would throw a TEMPER TANTRUM of screaming to the stars if we policed the boarder like Isreal. Media went nuts we put reserves. Can’t have it both ways and cherry pick what fits your narrative. Fine, I’m ok with building a fence, no problem as long as we can station fully armed military with command to shoot on site. No? Didn’t think so. Build the wall.
2
When we visited the Carlisle Castle in the north of England a few years ago, the guide explained that all the sewage (untreated, of course) from the castle was emptied into the moat surrounding the castle, on purpose: to make it stink to the high heavens and make it extremely unattractive to enemies who might want to swim across and then climb the walls to attack the castle.
Would it not be cheaper for Trump to dig a moat along our southern border and dump all the sewage and garbage from the WH (and possibly all the US) into that moat and make make a big stink and make it un-crossable? And anyone who swims across will be immediately identified from the stink as an illegal who has crossed the moat.
1
Brilliant idea! Is there any way to get DJT to read your article?
An "Israeli-style barrier" might not be super amazing political branding.
Why would anyone expect that the elderly person in the White House is able to understand the depth of modern surveillance technologies?
More lies and nonsense from Stephens. Maybe we should gun down some innocent medical workers and demonstrators, too.
I agree.
So give Trump his $5 billion and don't call it a wall, but something else. Then Chuckie and Nutsy can claim victory and end the shut down
Apropos of that last sentence or so...if Trump, Trumpists, and the weaselly likes of Pence and Graham keep it up, we will.
Hey Brett, great idea: Israeli smart fence technology for us. I’ve got a great way to pay it: we stop giving Israel the $4 billion/year handout we give them, and use it to pay for your Israeli fence idea. Israel has a GDP per capita of $40K - more than that of France or UK or Japan or UAE. Why do we give $4 billion/year to a wealthy nation like Israel? In fact, not only should we stop the $4 billion/year handout that Israel takes from us, Isreal should write us a check and provide the personnel and expertise to build that Israeli smart fence for us. It’s the least they can do for us after constantly taking from us for decades. Since Trump has failed to get Mexico to pay for his Wall, Israel can pay for your smart fence.
2
@MC
Not a giveaway. Since it all must be spent in the US, it comes right back into the economy. In essence, a subsidy for the defense industry. You go tell the fine folks at MacDonnel and Raytheon they're out of jobs. You might want to research the subject matter a bit more.
2
@J K
Actually only 75% has to be spent on US weapons. 25% is spent on Israeli or non-US weapons. That Off-Shore Procurment is supposed to phase out from 25% now and in the past to 0% by FY2028. So the US taxpayers actually help to fund and develop Israel’s military industrial complex - only Isreal gets that type of military aid - that’s insane. We also fund the Iron Dome system - all Israeli - with Congress routinely giving more money than requested by White House. While you are correct that US military industrial complex benefits by the 75% of US military aid to Israel, by your logic we should give billions of $ of military aid to every wealthy country so our defense industry has jobs. All our NATO and other wealthy allies pay for their US weapons. Well past time for wealthy Israel's tax payers to stop freeloading. The mighty IDF routinely uses the weapons in violation of international laws. For all the US aid, the mighty IDF refuses to lose its own soldiers to wipe out Hezbollah, Hamas or Iran - all entities that call for the destruction of Israel. Israel prefers to drop bombs and shell primarily civilians - too cowardly to fight Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran directly - 2006 Lebanon War being a prime example of that cowardice. After all the US military aid, Israel wants US to fight Israel’s enemies. Israel also sells drones violating US/EU sanctions to Russia and had military pact with Russia.
Here is some research for you: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
1
Stick to the facts sir. Words like "between sworn enemies" and "real threats" is inflammatory and you know it.
“here is what a long stretch of the border between two sworn enemies looks like.”
Did I miss something? When did we declare war with Mexico? Or with Central America? Why are you bringing up Israel as a model for us? We are not at war. The only national emergency in this country is a vain, spiteful, megalomaniac who thinks nothing of inflicting pain, hardship, and suffering on American citizens; just so he can “win” a media popularity contest. Also the spineless, craven Republican senators who are afraid to do their jobs and over rule the bully. Disgraces to the country and violators of their oaths of office, every last one of them.
2
This country has many real serious problems, each of which by itself completely swamps anything immigration related:
1) over 35,000 gun deaths
2) over 35,000 opioid deaths
3) crumbling infrastructure
4) healthcare
5) climate change
By comparison there is no border security issue. We already have agencies to handle whatever happens at the border.
I can't believe how hopelessly stupid this whole wall fiasco has spiraled out of control. We don't have $5 billion to spare for individual-1's phallic symbol.
End the shutdown NOW. Redirect focus on real issues NOW.
2
You gloss over the most important fact about Israeli border security, even tentative attempts to cross it are met with OVERWHELMING force. Any serious attempt breach the barrier is met with a military response, up to and including lethal airstrikes in whatever quantity is required. You can make a credible argument that the threat level in Israel's neighborhood justifies this. There is no such threat on the U.S.-Mexican border, none. Trump's endless lying about it are an attempt to push a Goebbels level big lie. Central American refugees that just want a minimally decent life do not need to met with cluster bombs, Goebbels junior's, I mean Steven Miller's, fantasy's, aside.
All of you nice people so sincerely debating the pros and cons of a wall are just dancing to the Donald's tune.
He wants you to be riled up and distracted from the slow revelation of his criminal behavior.
Yet again, he...with the ample help of the media...has you right where he wants you.
While Trump is a lot of distasteful things, stupid is not one of them. He certainly understands that a physical wall is a relatively ineffective means to secure the border, especially compared to solutions such as those used by Israel and its neighbors.
His insistence on a physical wall is simply pandering to his base of supporters and racist, bigoted media chatteroti like Ann Coulter, Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingrahm. Pelosi and Schumer are doing exactly the right thing: plant their feet, fold their arms and simply say "no."
The most significant paragraph in this article is the last one.
We do NOT want to become Israel. People are coming here for socio-economic reasons. And how quickly we forget. We are ALL immigrants here. (We killed off the natives.)
The plaque at the Statue of Liberty reads: “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore,” she wrote. “Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
1
This columns seems more like Bret Stephens moonlighting as an pro-Israeli PR spokesman than anything else. Let’s not glamorize how Israel handles its borders. They don’t hesitate to use lethal force against civilians protesting the barriers. Netanyahu labels every Palestinian as a terrorist Hamas member or sympathizer much in the same way that Trump dehumanizes people on the other side of the Mexican border as criminals, rapists or MS-13 gang member.
So maybe Bret Stephens is getting his way. The U.S. is actually following the Israeli example. Or more like Trump is following the Netanyahu example.
We need a secure Southern border .we should use every technology we have . Including any form of barrier. That simple. There is 48 legal entries on the southern border. The politicians want 2 give 54 billion dollars 2 other countries. So why can't our politicians give 10 billion dollars of that to secure our border make America first!!!!!
Trump tries to scare us into support of his dumb wall by claiming that terrorists are among the throngs of immigrants gathering at the border. I would venture a guess that most terrorists come in at terminals with forged credentials. Unlike Trump, they are most likely smart and sophisticated people.
1
No Deal with Trump. No surrender.
1
"An airstrike was called in." You think we're going to call in an airstrike when immigrants seek to breach the border? That's delusional Mr. Stephens.
1
.....last paragraph: 'the good news for US is that we don't face Hezbollah, etc. across our border, only people who want to relieve their own plight ...& here's where you lose me... & contribution their labor for everyone's betterment? Are all these Central Americans saints? I would say that they want to work to improve their lives & the lives of their families. Nothin' wrong with that.
1
You give Trump and his enablers too much credit. They are pandering to his rascist base.
1
The irony is so that much of this is paid for by US tax dollars. Then again our politicians are content to give Israel things like single pay or healthcare and state of the art infrastructure that they won’t give us. I’m sure all those politician can go to the book of fairy tales that the governs our policies toward Israel and find a verse or two to justify the neglect of their own people.
How I long for the day when this country rids itself of the poison that is religion.
@Sterling
are you joking? Other than it being a small small piece (maybe 2% of Israel's GDP),the aid Israel gets from the US is for military spending ONLY in the US which equates to a big subsidy for our defense industry. They dont get to spend it on infrastructure and healthcare. Thats just not true. What the US does get back is battle tested tech and information than keeps us and our troops safe. Pretty decent ROI for money that, in the end, doest really leave the US
You might want to better research your claims.
So let me get this straight. Israel has Hezbollah on its northern border, with rockets pointed at Israel and digging tunnels. And all Israel does is put up a smart fence? Hezbollah openly calls for Israel’s destruction. And Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government - they are fully in the open. Israel has Hamas on its southern border, with rockets pointed and even fired at Israel and digging tunnels. And Israel puts up smart fence and also kills 200 unarmed civilians - including those clearly identified as medics and journalists. Hamas openly calls for Israel’s destruction - it’s in their charter (like the denial of a Palestinian State is in Likud’s charter). Hamas runs Gaza - they are fully in the open.
Bret Stephens and others routinely put Hezbollah and Hamas in the same terrorist category as Al Qaeda and ISIS. They are all Islamist terrorists per Stephens et al. So now imagine that Al Qaeda was part of the Canadian government and had missiles pointed at US and was digging tunnels to invade US. Imagine that ISIS ran Mexican government and had missiles pointed at US and fired them and was digging tunnels to invade US. That Al Qaeda and ISIS called for our destruction while operating fully in the open on our northern and southern borders. You think our response would be smart fences? We would wipe Al Qaeda and ISIS out.
So why doesn’t Israel wipe out Hezbollah and Hamas. Because Israelis are cowards unwilling to sacrifice their own soldiers, but kill civilians instead.
1
This is nuts. Mexico is not our enemy and poses no physical threat to the US.
The false equivalency to the Israel/Palestinian border could weaponize the border argument here, with tragic results.
1
I've been to Israel, and saw a wall - a big, tall, ugly concrete wall - when I traveled from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. The US and Mexico have an agreed upon, internationally recognized border. Israel has built barriers and imposed its own borders, appropriating Palestinian territory, contrary to international law.
2
@TC
That wall was built to halt the wave or suicide bombings by their 'partner in peace'. Seems like Israeli's dont like being blown to bits and desire to protect themselves from the crazies out there. Crazy, I know.
2
@Bret Stephens, this is just idiotic, "Since President Trump thinks border security is the issue of our time, it’s worth considering how Israel — with tight borders, real threats, and a no-nonsense attitude toward its security needs — does it."
There is no threat from Mexico and the Central Americans countries. Dirt poor Mexicans wanted seasonal jobs to support their families back home.
This current crop of Central Americans want to escape violence caused by us either supporting their repressive Governments for decades or by shipping criminals back to their homelands (Ms-13 anyone?)
We DO NOT need an Israeli type of fence/wall/sniper controlled border between the U.S. and Mexico. Please control yourself from doing this again. Please do not use this as an example, this demeans you and us, the educated readers of the Times Op-Ed pages.
1
Stephens is forever the missionary from Israel, always suggesting that American life could be improved, if only we would follow the Israel way of fencing off unwanted minorities so that occupation and oppression is easier. But like Robert Frost,
Before I built a wall I’d ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense.
Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That wants it down.'
The irony is that Trump’s wall was really first just a menomic device so he could remember to throw red meat to his south west state bigots. He doesn’t give a hoot about what the wall is, as long as it serves him.
1
This is odd: a journalist researching best practices to solve an issue, just like a businessperson. Then we have a TV series executive acting like a propagandist!
This whole thing was created by Trump because the steady bad news of Cohen, Flynn, and Manafort was ruining his mood.
Looks more like a prison yard than protection to me. Gulags had walls and fences too you know.
1
Don’t care what measures you impose if I want to migrate I will find a way - study hard, do odd jobs that Americans will never, smuggle across border, find ways around the wall, construct gliders and scale the wall, start business across the border and slowly sneak in....c’mon really? You serious? No borders- period!
Very soon it will be our turn thanks to Republicans - mass emigration and then let’s see which country takes us in while the political leaders and their propaganda mouthpieces pillage our nation.
Ah, nothing like a factual look at the Israeli border that Trump repeatedly invokes. And that border is designed to keep out an armed enemy that considers itself to be at war with Israel. Last time I looked, Mexico wasn't dispatching suicide bombers to this country.
1
Measured by violence and destruction meted out, it's Israel's neighbors who need the protective walls.
I wonder if I'm the only one who is thinking that a fence used to keep "others" out, keeps those on the other side in. President Trump has made comments on fencing the Canadian border. (https://www.gishgallop.com/trump-i-will-build-a-great-canadian-wall-to-keep-americans-in/) Then what, for the American people? Eho in our government will control this "protective" fence? As the old adage goes, be careful what you pray for....
Americans could try occupying Mexico just as Israel has occupied the Palestinian Territories and the Golan Heights. It would work out as well for us as it has for Israel. How do you say “intifada” in Spanish?
All those people who are happy - like Trump at Mar a Lago - to have cheap undocumented workers is the real problem.
How about a living wage for ordinary workers and jail time for anybody who employs a person who isn’t authorized to work in the USA? When there are upper east side yummy mummys on Rikers there won’t be so many undocumented Mexicans looking after kiddies on the playgrounds...
But that ain’t gonna happen because nobody wants to pay more for their cook, or their gardener or their nanny.
1
Way too smart, Bret, for Trump and his Republican sycophants and supplicants.
250 miles of border is on a whole different planet than over 2,000 miles.
Once again, we must remind ourselves that the problems on the US southern border are also on another planet as compared to Israel's.
Any type of barrier along the whole US-Mexico border will do very, very little to address the issues we have.
Many of these were addressed in the bi-partisian Senate bill passed years ago, but never brought up in the GOP House.
The reason it was never brought up is because it would have passed, and in today's GOP the radical right wing talk radio tail wags the rest of the GOP because their leaders are weak and scared.
There will never be a solution while one party, the GOP, is virtually run by radical right wing talk radio and Fox blowhards.
The fence in Israel as the Berlin wall works because you have armed guards ready to machine gun anyone that gets closer to the fence/wall.
Is that what we want ?
Smart people build smart fences, dumb people build dumb walls. It is a theme repeated in many other areas of society, what more do you need to know.
1
"and call it, for political effect, an “Israeli-style barrier”?
Because Israel has been so free of terrorist threats?
1
Not sure if we can compare the fence to stop Hezbollah and the proposed wall to stop illegal crossings. Hezbollah is the enemy and can be fired upon. Illegals bring children to use them as an excuse to ask for asylum and to get empathy from the media
Dunderhead view: "The good news for the U.S. is that we don’t face Hezbollah, Hamas or ISIS across our border, only people who overwhelmingly want to relieve their own plight and contribute their labor for everyone’s betterment."
This view argues for open borders to illegal migrants, meaning uncontrolled migration in violation of the law of the land.
This view ignores the detriment to citizens whereby illegal migrants take jobs that citizens could fill. The presence of a labor pool of illegal migrants lowers wages for citizens, an economic distortion. This view also discounts the economic burden to the U.S. supporting millions of illegal migrants now occupying U.S. soil.
The measure of "their own plight" as a generality has no basis in law for justifying illegal migration to the U.S. (As for asylum itself, the law specifies the conditions for granting asylum to migrants to the U.S.)
As well, economic "betterment" benefiting (1) illegal migrants and (2) some citizens (primarily businessmen who unlawfully hire illegal migrants) cannot justify illegal migration to the U.S. Neigher can it justify the presence of millions of illegal migrants occupying the U.S.
America can get along without illegal migrants and will prosper all the more.
Learn more at these Web-sites:
www.numbersusa.com
http://www.fairus.org/
E-Verify works:
[found at: https://www.numbersusa.com/news/sen-grassley-rep-smith-e-verify-most-effective-tool-combat-illegal-immigration]
The fence built by the Israelis could be a good thing but not until government is restarted first and full hearings are conducted about the lies told by the Trump administration about the border.
Imprenitrible barriers? False
Mexico will pay? False
Terrorists on the border? False
Steel salts work? False
There are so many additional lies by Trump and all of these need to see the light of day in Congressional hearings.
1
Women have longer attention spans than men? Is that so? I'll have you know that, wait a minute.......... sorry, I forgot what I was going to say.
1
We know Trump wants to be like Bibi. So, mimicking an Israeli wall could be but one step for Trump to be like Bibi- until Putin starts building walls. I hope we do not try to mimic Israel.
It still blocks wildlife movement so it is incontrovertibly immoral. Wildlife populations would be devastated if they cannot access all of their habitat and resources. Humans are not the only species on the planet. We have no right to hurt other species.
6
The last paragraph is the most important and true to American principles statement in this article.
There's no factual proof we HAVE an immigration "crisis." We have a president and his complicit minions focusing the attention and budget of the country on a political stunt.
Time for change.
4
Developed economies, especially ours, no longer need vast numbers of uneducated, unskilled workers, who will consume more benefits and services than they can contribute, thus becoming a burden on whatever country they land in. Nobody has a problem with legal immigration, which tends to produce better educated and more skilled workers who can contribute to our development. Some want a return to the mass immigration of 100+ years ago but they don’t realize there was nothing high-minded or altruistic about our immigration policy then. Those people were needed and they were exploited like the renewable resource they were. Sounds harsh, but there it is.
1
This is continually stated and is just not true. These workers clean hotel rooms, cook, work in meat processing, pick fruits and vegetables and work in construction and landscaping. These are jobs that Americans just won’t do at the rates needed to sustain the economy, and not just because of pay because sometimes the pay is quite good. There are many farmers who have a problem getting pickers now, so produce goes unpicked and rots. They place job offers with local unemployment offices and get few applicants. The ones they do get don’t last long. I’m a contractor in California and there is a severe labor shortage in the building trades. Young Americans are not going in to the trades for some reason. The work isn’t nearly as hard and thankless as people would have you believe and it’s not difficult to make $50,000-$75,000 per year or more. That’s without college (and student loan debt). I know some electricians in the Bay Area making $150,000 or more with overtime because there are not enough workers. I’ve turned down about $1,000,000 worth of work because of the labor shortage in the past year. The jobs are here and going unfilled, and many pay well.
1
I have been waiting for someone to point to Israel as an example of 21st Century border security. Their survival depends on effective border security—isn’t it logical to turn to an ally with decades of experience in dealing with the problem?
1
Plaque at Statue of Liberty (words of American poet Emma Lazarus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus).
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
2
@PT
In 1886, the US population was approximately 50 million, and our industrial revolution had need of laborers.
In 2018, the USnpopulation is nearly 327 million.
The 19th industrial revolution is over...and it’s not coming back.
@PT
Yes. Our country was built by the poor and "...the wretched refuse.." that came here with few skills and no money who frequently worked a menial jobs and whose children and grandchildren became the great middle and upper classes of today's America. Not the H1b's with masters degrees and jobs waiting for them.
1
You do not know good security like we have in Russia.
1
Israel is the size of a postage stamp. It’s 33 times SMALLER than Texas...i.e. about the size of New Jersey. By necessity, their military is on call 24/7. By necessity, they are aggressive in defending their sovereignty and citizenry.
The United States, on the other hand, is akin to a sub-continent. Border patrol is spread very thin, so foreign lawbreakers easily surge across our porous borders. Even our own citizens are complicit, aiding and abetting illegals in their brazen disregard of our immigration laws. For example, newly-elected governor of California, Gavin Newsom, proposes to offer free health insurance to illegal migrants of a certain age. What???
We need border walls. We need technology at the border walls.
We need to end birthright citizenship for the offspring of illegal migrants. We need e-verify, and massive fines for employers who hire illegals. We also need a legitimate temporary guest-worker program, but those who overstay their visas would be immediately deported and not allowed back. We need to stop this endless cheerleading on behalf of foreign migrants who, with their attitude of entitlement, exploit American taxpayers to the tune of billions of dollars year after year...
Together, the above measures would go a long way towards putting a stop to illegal migration.
5
Without American taxpayer's money, Israel couldn't build such a fence chock full of expensive high tech goodies and surveillance equipment.
5
“ Because the Israeli Military has determined that Women have longer attention spans than Men “.
NO “ kidding”, Sherlock.
1
Bret was also breathless with excitement by the carnage created by the Israeli military at the Gaza border. Nothing like unarmed Palestinians, particularly children and medical personnel lying dead or gravely injured to give a sense of the type of security Bret is talking about.
3
@Robert Roth
What do you think the graduates of ‘Hamas Summer Camp’ are doing every Friday on the border....roasting marshmallows and singing Kumbaya?
Since 2001, Gaza terrorists have launched 20,000+ rockets into Israel, murdered and kidnapped Israeli citizens, misappropriated billions of dollars in foreign aid to amass weapons (which they hide in UN-subsidized schools, hospitals, and densely populated areas), construct attack tunnels under Israel’s border, and finance the personal bank accounts of their racketeering masters.
They routinely use women and children as human shields while indoctrinating and training them to become the next generation of Gaza’s terrorists and ‘martyrs’.
Gaza terrorists have destroyed over 7000 acres of Israeli farmland and wildlife habitat and cost the Israeli government billions of dollars in defense and security measures...all the while Gazans brazenly celebrate their murderous deeds while crying to the international community about Israel’s so-called ‘disproportionate’ response. Right. Any other country would have leveled the place years ago...
These people are the sole authors of their own deluded misery and have been for the past 70+ years Tough!
1
But there's a major difference: the Israelis have no compunction whatsoever to "calling in an airstrike," shooting an Uzi or otherwise disposing of "immigrants." We don't do that, in fact our border services are criticized for even daring to turn back hordes of invaders with tear gas. And to compare defending a border as short as that of Israel with defending our virtually interminable border with Mexico is ridiculous. Sorry, Stephens, your analogy doesn't hold.
2
We have a crisis almost exactly like the crisis Trump describes where our citizens have no need for a wall to protect them. They are surrounded by ocean. There are drugs there are gangs there are broad daylight shootings and murders a destroyed infrastructure and an overwhelmed police force whose numbers are decreasing rapidly. If Trump and the Republicans cannot and will not save our Commonwealth Puerto Rico, why would anyone think these self serving politicians can improve life in the continental United States with a fascist ,Israeli type barricade?
1
“Why can’t Democrats and Republicans agree...” is a misleading sentence. Membership in, and allegiance to, a political party, in a divided United States of diverse populations of individuals and stakeholders, representing ranges of cultures,traditions, “dreams,” aspirations, personal experiences, and created and transmitted “revisionist” histories and legacies, within a toxic WE-THEY reality enabling the violating, by words and deeds, daily, created, selected, targeted “the other(s)” doesn’t help a complacent and/or complicit US to adequately understand THEIR personal unaccountability!What and how are each of these elected, selected, urban-rural, local, regional and national policymakers perceiving?Adequately aware, or not, about...?Willfully blind to...? Willfully deaf about ...? As THEY think; mixing up, all too often knowing with understanding. What are their experienced feelings, or absence of, related to? Rooted in?What are their judgments based on, if and when they choose to do so?How are their derived decisions made-when they are? Timely?Relevant or not?What is THEIR personal history of effectively learning from the implications and consequences of their written, twittered, voiced words and done deeds?Or of not saying, writing or doing, when THEIR mandated efforts for equitable well-being for ALL of US was critical? IS.Everyday.Party allegiance and personal Identity are just one piece in the American puzzle. Consider:what does each of our own behavioral “isms” enable?
hey bret. yes their technology is better but you didn't mention the "landmines" signs. everyone knows the borders are heavily mined. when i was in israel many years ago the signs on the israel side were in english and hebrew only. and what's with the "longer attention span" nonsense? in truth, israel's national army service policy means there are a lot of women who are not allowed to serve on front lines. what's going to happen when they conscript the ultra religious? if they keep them from the front lines, too, they'll need more walls to separate men and women. another moronic inferno.
Not that this has much to do with the issue - just wanted to say that most of the landmines have been removed for various reasons. Many years ago (as you said when you were here), yes, there were signs & landmines. Today no.
Ridiculous article. What we really need to do is revise our asylum laws.
1
Bret, you forgot to mention that Israel used military snipers last year at Israel Gaza fence, an illegal border by international law, to kill 200 unarmed civilians, some clearly marked as medics and journalists, and wounded thousands. Some of those civilians burnt tires, threw stones, charged the fence, some were Hamas affiliated, but the vast majority were peaceful and protesting that they had been ethnically cleansed from their ancestral homes and land. So should we get military snipers at our southern border to kill and wound thousands of unarmed civilians?
Israel’s separation barrier or wall between Israel and the occupied West Bank also violates international law. Significant portions are built on Palestinian land illegally confiscated on the occupied side of West Bank. The wall helped in part to stop Palestinian suicide bombing, that’s a very partial story, but the terrorist threat is very real. Thousands of Palestinians daily cross that wall both legally and illegally every day. Israel allows those illegal crossings because it wants the cheap, exploited Palestinian labor - just like we want cheap, exploited Mexican/Central American labor. The wall does nothing to stop that flow. And unlike Israel, we have virtually no terrorist threat on our southern border - our biggest threat now is homegrown white supremist groups, white men with AR15s/handguns. So should we build a wall by illegally taking land from Mexico.
Israel gets US to pay for its fences. Who will pay us?
3
The "crisis" we are having is in DC, not the southern border. The 'discussion' needs to be led with facts, not the lies the POTUS is vomiting daily and the press reporting verbatim. What is the role of facts in this discussion?
Only facts should be brought to the discussion. $5.7 billion (and notice it has been rising with each iteration) is a lot of money ($5,700 MILLION, $57,000 X $100,000 to give perspective). The benefit of this article is to point out sensors and a fence are more effective than a wall, in an area where one population wishes harm on another. That is not our case in the US. These immigrants want a better life. Perhaps Trump ought to remove the Statue of Liberty; that more defines him.
There exists no emergency. Illegal immigration apprehensions at the border have declined for the last 18 years from 1.6 million in 2000. The POTUS weaponized immigration before the November election and lost BIG! What happened to the dreaded caravan we heard so much about???? This could be an issue for discussion if the POTUS weren't such a pathological liar. I expect no truth nor fact to emerge from him or any of the administration, or GOP for that matter. No one should give in to the hostage taking which is what this is.
2
While were at it, it'd be great if the Israelis could better train our TSA/customs/border agents. We could use their expertise in these areas too.
2
Yes, please! In Israel you zoom thru airport security, no taking off shoes or belts. Also allowed to bring thru bottles of water (or any liquid), no need to throw away the $5.00 airport bottle of Coke just purchased. Airport security in America is a nightmare, shoes off, weaving in & out of lines that seems to take forever.....and everyone stressed. Why???
Of course I want to be safe & appreciate the work of the TSA, but as one who travels frequently between Israel & America, the differences are astonishing.
2
Probably already been mentioned but......be careful what you wish for. I am sure Donald and the boys (or girls) would love to launch air strikes to keep all the "drug dealers and "Gangs" from crossing. Imagine the carnage if someone walked into a port of entry with Scarface t-shirt on .
Sure, Israeli walls. The kind where Israeli snipers shoot unarmed Palestinian medical volunteers because Israelis fear for they lives. Sounds like a great Conservative solution to me.
- Coyotes/Human Trafficking
- MS 13
- Drug Smugglers
- Terrorists...from other continents
- ...
Has Mr. Stephens not been following the news for the last few decades?
2
My impression of Donald Trump reading this column:
What Real Border Security Looks Like
.........................An airstrike was called in............................
1
Has anyone in the current administration read this. Maybe someone should read it to the President or read on Fox News so he will hear it
sounds great
2
I wonder what Pelosi and the Democrats will say when the new caravan, purportedly 15,000 strong try to approach our border? Notice not a word, nada, coming from the MSM.
2
"Effective deterrence..."? You mean, shooting people?
Really - an Israeli-style barrier? That would make things better?
To a sizeable portion of the world Israel is a symbol of apartheid.
This article makes a good argument but Israel is literary in mortal danger from suicide bombers and rockets. Last time I saw the refugees at the border have neither.
Why not kill two birds with one stone? By all means build an Israeli-style wall but have the Israeli’s build it which will please Trump’s Evangelicals as well as Natinyahu and get the Saudi’s to pay for it which will please Trump’s popular minority and the Mexicans.
1
And your point is....? You are being rational. That is not the situation. Trump needs to look like a strongman who keeps his stupid promises. Therefore, he will refuse to open the government( for years), until he wins. He drags everyone into a brawl. The saddest thing I read today is the farmer who said he might lose his farm, but we really need border security. America is a depressing place, full of sad, deluded people.
Democrats speak with compassion for illegal immigrants.
Sanctuary policies Democrats advocate have spiked populations in Democrat strongholds resulting in 9 extra seats in Congress.
Is their goal compassion or raw permanent political power?
1
Bret, you are hopelessly naive. Trumps “ Wall “ has nothing to do with Security, Immigrants or wasteful spending. It’s a monument to Racism, Spite and Ego. The Trump trifecta.
Period.
1
"an airstrike was called in" Yup, we need some of that, for sure. This "parallel" is kinda perpendicular. It's sideways support for the president's claims of great menace.
Two points.
Firstly, last time I looked, the separation barrier between Israel, or rather Israeli confiscated segments of the west bank, and the west bank under Palestinian control, is a big, tall concrete wall. Secondly, the Israeli's simply shoot anybody who tries to illegally cross their border, or even gets too close to it (see Gaza medic story), so then you don't really need a wall, just a clear demarkation.
2
Too intelligent for Donald Trump and his Republican sycophants.
Just what we need. A forever war with Mexico.
And Bret is the “good” republican.
So Bret how is Mexico like Palestine? Do tell.
2
"... women have longer attention spans than men."?!?!?! Guess this statement reflects Bret's conservative beliefs. He probably believes the wheel was invented before the wall, like orange infant does.
Why we should follow the lead of the Israelis? Without the might and ceaseless support of the U.S. that country would not exist.
The premise is false.
You acknowledge that with your last paragraph.
Nonsense coverage of nonsense.
NYT, aim higher. Furlough this guy.
You make a lot of sense. The problem is that his irrational wall tantrum is not about border security, it's about Ann Coulter, Rush Lindberg and co. and their heartless, racist, ignorant herd (Mr. T's base) who most likely won't read this article or have the slightest interest in considering any possibly reasonable solutions.
203
@CPC Don't know about Lindberg and co (Linbaugh?) or Ann Coulter except for what I 'hear' from those that listen to them. But I do know that most of the US, including those that voted for Trump, want security and don't care if it's a 'wall' or some other solution that puts an end to the waste of money and time going into all this nonsense. Niether the president nor the Congress are experts in border protection. They should not be fighting over slats, concrete, etc. They should sign a budget that includes security at a budget level that will enable security. If they can give Honduras or central America 10 billion, as they've committed, then they should come up with some money for security? The real issue is tied to our laws - eliminate chain migration, anchor babies, and asylum applications that come AFTER one has entered the country illegally. If we cannot come up with an agreement, start with outlawing the sending of money to South America, Central America, Mexico (Russia and China) from 'people' in the US. Countries south of the border have no interest in stopping people from entering knowing the send billions back, of which the government gets a cut.
4
@Ma All of your suggestions are "reasonable solutions" but the Democrats would never allow them. They need these people from the third world in order to create a one party country.
3
@h dierkes
None of those suggestions are “solutions” nor are any of them “reasonable”.
Democrats already outnumber Republics in America and the difference is growing every year.
5
Building a smart fence would require smart leadership in the White House, not the petulant, ignorant, lying narcissist who knows nothing and proves it daily. Immigrants aren't the country's problem compared to the incompetent-in-chief, who really is a national emergency.
Eclectic Pragmatism — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
After the detection Israeli sent in air strikes. Is that really his solution?
Are we really prepared to call in air strikes to kill seven Honduran refugees walking toward our border?
Any common sense approach that can't be used for grandstanding to his alienated right-wing base is useless for Trump. The man is much more dangerous than Hitler on all levels. The world is counting on the strength, and resilience of American Democratic Institutions to neutralize him, and to introduce electoral reforms to prevent such a madman from rising to power again.
What a sick idea, build border security as if we were at war with Mexico. And if you spot illegal immigrants trying to cross, will you call an airstrike like the Israelis?
2
ahhh, does it matter that the Israeli fence divides people that have essentially been at war for 50 years and Mexico is a close friend? How 'bout, let's build Ellis Island on the southern birder.
Did you catch Israeli response when they detect people trying to cross their fence? Air strikes.
No problem with this. Israel can consult on our boarder wall, smart fence whatever. Amazing how terrorists have stopped bombings in Tel Aviv, new slogan, “smart fences work”.?
1
We toss money around like its play money. WhT is such a big deal about a wall of different uses. Concrete,wire, drones can’t
Have any of this when Dems can’t agree to anything.
Can’t fix stupid and self serving jerks in our government.
The last thing in the world Republicans want is a logical and comprehensive solution to immigration. They just want to be able to continue to scare the bejeebers out of their ignorant voters.
Sure, an Israeli-style “smart fence” is exactly what we need. That way, when the teenage girl monitors see a group of illegals approaching the border, they can call in an air strike on them, a la the IDF. Get real.
This is perhaps the most childish op-ed by mr. Stephens. His commentary seems completely out of the world, as much as "that" nytimes staff person who said to mr. Trump that Palestinians hurl bombs over Israelian walls.
The answer is still, after 2 years, the same.
US and Mexico are not two countries in armed conflict with each other.
Israel and its neighbouring countries/authorities are.
From this obvious starting principle everything else follows and falls right in place.
1)Israelis are interested in spying their neighbouring countries/authorities (USA is not, and by the way the mexican border is prevalently not inhabitated, so apart wild animals there's nothing to spy on ).
2) To this purpose they have added electronic gears to constantly monitor the place.(USA has done something similar but only to alert police about trespassing which is its number one problem)
3)They do that because they have a robust electronic industry, ( so is steal industry in America, thus steal plats should be used at mexican border. One uses what he has got and he knows better)
4) indipendently of the type of fence, its primary scope is to block any trespassing. Israel can use fence since its territory is mainly constituted of rocky hills, so the fence is fit for blocking walking people. USA has to build more solid barriers because the territory is mainly flat, and people can easily trespass by using vehicles.
Counterproof, some israelian barriers are made of concrete near cities.
Well said. Trump is an idiot, trying to justify his clear demagoguery (a wall, paid by Mejico) to stay relevant. What we need, if there is the will (and if so, there shall be a way), is a progresssive Immigration Reform. Period.
Whereas Israelis, regardless of political party, will keep their smart wall alive and monitored 24/7, that will not be the case when Democrats are in sufficient control to tinker with funding, personnel, rules, regulations,, etc. - because they have just recently discovered the mother load - entitlement hungry Latinos risking life and limb to get across the southern border. Those people, and their offspring, will vote Democrat eventually, assuring Democrat control over the nation. One party states don't work too well - or have the Democrats ignored that historical fact? Is it party first, the nation last?
2
Here are the ten worst terrorist strikes in the United States, ranked by fatalities (in brackets).
Not a single one of them involved anyone crossing America’s southern borders.
• The destruction of the Twin Towers in NYC (2,993)
• The crash of an Egypt Air flight off Nantucket (217)
• Tim McVeigh’s bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma (169)
• Shooting attack at a nightclub in Orlando, Florida (50)
• A bomb explosion near Manhattan’s Morgan Bank in 1920 (38)
• A bomb at the Los Angeles Times building in 1910 (21)
• The 1958 crash of a hijacked Cubana Airlines flight in Miami (17)
• The 2015 shootout at a social services center in California (16)
• The shooting of soldiers at Fort Hood by Army psychiatrist Nidal Malik Hasan (13)
• Sniper attacks in eight communities in October 2002 (13)
3
@Temple Emmet Williams you forgot Vegas
@r a You are correct. The list predated the Vegas debacle.
1
Wow! I didn’t know that immigrants from Mexico and Central American where raining missiles at the US like Hezbollah to Israel. I need to work on my knowledge of current events.
Are we going to start shooting them on the spot like the Israelis do?
1
Still way too much divisiveness. Brett Stephens shows us the ideal barrier solution between two sworn enemies. There is a problem here. Mexico, last time I checked, is an ally. Stupid, stupid wall.
2
So, Mexico is the the U.S. as the MidEast is to Israel. Really?
2
"Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing in places where it’s missing and call it, for political effect, an “Israeli-style barrier”?", Mr. Stephens asks.
Is that question for real?
It's because money-boo-boo is a fear-mongering moron with an 'edifice complex.' And, more sadly, there are tens of millions of our fellow citizens who are ... well, just really, really, really stupid.
Israel should give us their fence, since we paid for it.
2
This guy blindly loves everything that Israel does.
I hate fascist and fascism loving Republicans. They will ruin our world. Building walls and hate, they add nothing to further humanity.
I cannot think of 1 Republican law I can look up to - all Republicans do in power is pure evil: torture and wars and hate .
1
But Mr Stephens - you either missed the point or chose to skip it. Most people understand what you are saying and more or less agree.
But Trump made a campaign issue and a campaign promise of this, and that alone is driving things now. I doubt Mr Trump has thought through much if any of this stuff, but he did make that promise and he's damned if he's going to let it go.
And since his base thinks along with what he says, he has significant support where he cares about support. A friend of mine who is a supporter of Trump just posted on Facebook the other day a short video of someone (not an official person) "documenting" the crisis and the disasters that have befallen us already and the absolute need to BUILD THAT WALL!!!
So you wont change many minds that need changing, alas.
@ Ann of California. I have clicked on to your link suggestions in many of your comments and have found them incredibly informative and provocative. I wish the NYT offered more articles of theis broad research and prospective. You do us readers a great service. The comments add so much to the conversation. Thank you.
cch, baker city, or.
Poor example, we are not at war with Mexico or Central America and we have already lost the war on drugs. However "Big Pharma" is one of the enemies. How many kilos of Heroin could a Guatamalean hide under his sombrero? Doctors prescribe a month's worth of pain pills when only enough for a week is needed. Those extra pills are then distributed to friends, family, and neighbors.
1
Are the Blue Line and the US southern border comparable? I cannot find an exact number for the length of the Blue Line, but for discussion, say it is a little over 100 kilometers. The US border with Mexico is 3,145 kilometers (1,954 mi). This is a significant difference.
If you were to scale the Israeli technology and personnel, needed to be effective on the southern border, would the Israeli approach be cost and end-results effective?
4
Thank you, Bret Stephens. Your very reasonable and fact-based proposal could satisfy both Dems and Reps, except of course, president Trump. Real border security isn't grandiose, and that's what defines Trump's self-image. He can't accept reality, no matter how many pictures you show him. But thanks for trying.
1
I have only two questions.
1. Has any newspaper columnist or tv commentator who have discussed the fence/wall taken a geography course or looked at a detailed topographic map of the border, especially the Texas-Mexico border? Obviously, Mr. Stephens hasn't.
2. Why are US land owners and Indian tribes along the Mexican border almost universally against a wall/fence? In fact lawsuits have prevented construction of border fencing authorized in 2006. Again, Mr. Stephens hasn't bothered to address this issue.
I appreciate Mr. Stephens reporting on Israel's border fencing and how it relates to Trump's proposed wall/fence. It just highlights how ineffective the wall/fence will be.
2
If Palestinians can dig tunnels under a wall, then so can Mexicans.
2
There is no border crisis in the US.
There is no border crisis in the US.
There is no border crisis in the US.
Racist techno-fencing built to resembke Israeli apartheid is a genuinely horrifying idea in the face of an imaginary "border crisis."
3
Sorry Bret, I do not want an "Israel style barrier". I do not like the Israeli solution, which turns neighbors into permanent enemies. Israelis are threatened so their concern is legitimate, but how about the threat that Israelis pose to Palestinians? Why is that not discussed? In the US all men are created equal, in Israel non-Jews have inferior rights, and this fundamental difference is at the core of Israel's situation. Israel and the US has fundamentally different values.
Israel is constantly trying to make it appear that its dilemma is shared with the US, in order to gain sympathy. No Bret, we are not in the same boat.
3
Nice to let us know about Israel's barrier to contain Palestinians, but irrelevant to our own southern border with Mexico.
At our southern border we have thousands of migrants seeking asylum from the crime and poverty of their own countries. They want to settle in the US, find jobs, and pursue a peaceful and secure life for themselves and their children.
We do not have armed men attempting to storm or infiltrate our southern border. The counties and towns adjacent to the border are among the safest and most peaceful in the nation.
There are occasional attempted border crossings by criminals seeking richer pickings on our side of the border. There is also a determined effort by smugglers to supply America's drug addicts. Proper management of the border crossings, and the use of readily-available technology to maintain surveillance of the open and minimally-fenced portions of the border, can maintain the security of the border.
American life style requires a steady flow of immigrants who are willing to do the hard and dangerous work while the rest of us play make-work jobs in air-conditioned offices. How fortunate we are to have a steady supply of cheap labor standing at the gates waiting to be let in!
Spending billions of dollars to build a substantial wall across the Sonoran Desert would be utter folly! If, by means of deception or fiscal irresponsibility, such a wall is built, let’s call it the “Trump Memorial Folly”!
3
That paints a simplistic picture. The Israeli fence works, because it is backed up by lethal force. For that to work on the Southern border, we would have to be willing to call in air strikes to prevent women and children from overrunning the fence.
Would you really go that far?
1
Kara, are you willing to let ANYONE across that border because, they demand to come in? Or let them in when they rush the border en masse, like they tried last month? Say some9j3 demands to have you car or cell phone, just let them have it? I thought so.
2
"Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing in places where it’s missing and call it, for political effect, an 'Israeli-style barrier'?"
Yes, that would make sense. But little Donald wants his big, beautiful concrete wall and little Donald gets what little Donald wants!
1
Trump doesn't read so presumably he never heard of the "invulnerable" French Maginot Line. We need a Congress willing to rein this guy in and we need some effective legislation which will help prevent a loose cannon from destroying our democracy. Further, stop covering this publicity-seeking carnival barker.
"Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing in places where it’s missing and call it, for political effect, an “Israeli-style barrier”?"
There he goes again. Stephens just can't help himself. A column ostensibly about Trump's medieval wall becomes a paean to the "good wall" of segregation the Israelis built, with a backhanded compliment for women who have "longer attention spans" to spot oncoming terrorists. Stephens neglected to add that it must come from knitting or tending to children or maybe even cooking. Golly how unfair! Those Attention Deficit Disorder guys are best off in the field as real soldiers instead of the girls who are good at watching very dull video of paint drying on a wall.
Maybe Stephens doesn't get out often or doesn't have much contact with all those folks who don't think an "Israeli-style barrier" is all that Kosher.
I wouldn't think twice to query an Evangelical about what JC would do. But I don't think we want Trump asking Bibi what he would do. Except maybe about getting a good lawyer.
2
Mexicans and Central Americans are not the enemy. They are not sending fighters and firing mortars; they are maids, nursing home aides, and nannies. They are fleeing persecution and poverty. Treating them like enemy combatants, including this military-style fencing, just feeds into the dangerous dehumanizing propaganda of the Trump White House.
2
There are 4.4 million people who are patiently waiting for LEGAL immigration visas according to the State Department, which includes 1.3 million Mexican citizens and 77 thousand El Salvadorian citizens ... and this list of LEGAL requests is growing by 100,000 each year. These are people who are filling out the proper paperwork and queuing up for a process that can take months or decades for approval. Why should the ILLEGAL immigrant get pushed to the front of the line for a visa, just because they have the ability to walk across our border with the blind-eye help of the Mexico government?
What of the people who've followed our immigration rules, and can't illegally breach our porous southern border to seek asylum, those from: China, Bangladesh, Cuba, Haiti, Philippines, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, India, and the hellholes of Africa?
Immigrating into the United States has always been a privilege for those seeking the opportunity...and our government has always had the right to first vet those who've wanted to gain entry legally, be it through the gateway of Ellis Island, or any other legal port of entry. If a "smart fence" can help to maintain immigration fairness, then let's build it.
3
The Congressional Democrats have put forth a comprehensive, tech-heavy series of steps to secure the southern border. Just not a futile, useless “wall.”
Trump demands a wall, to be paid for by taxpayers in the U.S., not Mexico. He has boxed himself into a corner of his own making. He wants a re-election symbol. He could care less for border security.
Offering up the way Israel does this is specious and irrelevant. Their situation and ours are completely, utterly different.
1
Thank you! We need more coverage on smart solutions — for border security, immigration, etc.
2
The wall is just a distraction,. a combination of.
"Pay no attention to the criminal who sits in the White House." and
"The brown skins are coming, the brown skins are coming."
Meanwhile the Russians, at the invitation and cooperation of the Trump campaign, actually did come, and won.
I've been to the West Bank and Israel. Apartheid is not the answer. As to our border, we already have border fences with sensors and it works as well as these things can; the problem is the Trump border policy. It is inhumane and immoral.
1
Sorry Bret, Think business and who you're dealing with...it's just another way of laundering money.
Bret do you ever have an idea that doesn't originate with netanayu or de maistre?
Quit being such a loyal Party mouthpIece, Stephens. Man up and be honest for onc. Admit that it is your Party and your President who continue to pretend the wall is about anything other than keeping the Republican base scared, angry and easily manipulated for Party purposes. Democrats already want to make it easier for people seeking a better life for their children to enter the country legally. Only Trump and Stephens’ fellow travelers in the Republican Party stand in the way.
1
My favorite column of yours, ever. Thanks Brett. Not only more effective, this would probably be cheaper. Maybe divert some $$ for adequate care for asylum seekers.
@Lisa
Oops on the spelling, Bret.
Liisa
The disconnect here is that Israel takes measures at its borders for actual security, while Trump grandstands to keep the votes of the distinct minority of American voters who chanted at his rallies about the magic wall.
Someone forget to mention tunneling?
1
Stephens:
Trump was never about security. Trump wants a wall that says that people from the Southern border are not welcome. And by the way, it also tells to the people that is already inside legally or illegally but that have a semblance to non-white people that they are not welcome (unless they are from a petro-state and pay up in condos).
It is a plain racist wall with a racist message. And I do not write this lightly. I disdain the condescension of identity politics, but at least it has a positive aim. The wall is crass racism, not security. It is an expression of the deep insecurity behind the resentful racism that pervades Trump.
The problem with this approach is this description of the fencing in Israel - ". . . between two sworn enemies. . . "
Mexicans, Guatemalans and the rest of Central Americans are not our enemies so we should not compare our situation with Israel's. The people to the south of the United States are no more our enemies than Canadians are. It makes no sense to focus on keeping out our non-enemies from only the south, unless you add the racism motives Trump shares with the GOP. Drugs are not the motivating factor either. Marijuana is legal in Canada now, not in Mexico.
1
This seems to be irrelevant citing of Israel day in the NYT. Mr. Brooks mentions Israeli daycare centers and now this.
You discuss the fence along the Blue Line, i.e. Israel and Lebanon. There are similar fences along the Israel-Jordan border and the Israel Gaza border. I think though that what Mr. Trump had in mind was something like the Israel-West Bank barrier. That is more of a wall.
In any case though, the needs and purposes of these walls and fences are entirely different than what Mr. Trump envisions or claims he needs and the comparisons are pretty irrelevant.
Nice try though.
1
Mexico is our "sworn enemy"?
Only in the fever-dreams of Our President and Steve King.
I hit that false premise and quit reading. Thanks for putting it in the lead paragraph. Smart move.
1
When Mexico pays for the wall, build it. Or fence or artistic slats.
You describe the relationship between Israel and its Palestinian neighbors as one between enemy states. But you seem to compare apples with pinecones when you suggest that fencing such as that used by Israel on its Blue Line might work between allies like the US and Mexico. What gets lost in all this wallspeak is that Mexico and the rest of Central America are not at war with the United States. The people fleeing to el Norte are running from conditions that stem from the earliest relationship between our country and our neighbors in the Western Hemisphere: the Monroe Doctrine, which delayed the development of independent and functioning democracies to our south. Most of all, what gets lost in all this is that these are human beings, like you, like me, like your family and mine. They are not "invaders." They do not represent an "enemy state." They are human beings, and, this proposed wall stinks of racism and fear of the "brown other."
So we should build an "Israeli-style barrier" even though "the best way to protect a border is to rely on the tools of the 21st century, not the 12th" and "we don’t face Hezbollah, Hamas or ISIS across our border, only people who overwhelmingly want to relieve their own plight and contribute their labor for everyone’s betterment"?
Brilliant plan. That doesn't sound pointless at all...
Yet another (well-written) facts based article. But don’t you get it? Trump isn’t interested in facts, he’s not even interested in information (or else he’d read security briefings!). He (sorry, his election team) came up with a catchy simpleton’s meme - The Wall - so he would stay on-subject about immigration. He’ll now fit “alternative facts” to fit The Wall narrative. But everyone knows that already. The alarming thing, and it’s growing more alarming as the shutdown continues, is the GOP support he still enjoys. Thats is truly shocking!
As much as the press highlights the small part of Israel’s border made of concrete walls (to prevent gunshots between urban locations), most of it is sophisticated fencing as Bret describes.
Of course, Israel has different security concerns. Just one person infiltrating the border is a possible terror threat and the IDF is ready to pounce and kill anyone, as needed — which is a deterrent in and of itself. Counter that with the US where the “game” is getting over the border, where the law requires people to be registered and then being released into society until their court hearing years into the future (of which only 60% of people show up.)
A laser barrier, if it worked, would be great [see: https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-news-border-wall-laser-vegas-trump-20190109-story.html?outputType=amp].
1
If Congress agreed to fund a fence arrangement like Israel's, Trump would say it's equivalent to a "wall" so he could gloat that he got his "big beautiful wall" built. Guaranteed.
Smart Fence and Tax Returns.
But you see, again, Trump has falsely equalized refugees escaping violence with Hamas fighters. It is his typical argument, and one the "suckers" (his voters) will not only buy, but embrace. Folks, we're dealing with an evil man, corrupt to his very being, who will do anything and everything to preserve himself. There has never been an American President who is so damaging to our very existence as a democracy and republic. His mentors and enablers in Congress, in churches and corporate boardrooms are the people who need to be walled-in, some in prisons that have walls that work.
Hezbollah and Israel are heavily armed military enemies. Mexico and the United States are - or were, until the 2016 election - allies and friends. Unlike Israel, we are at no risk of military invasions across our borders.
If Israel deterred invasion for nearly two decades with what amounts to a high-tech barbed wire fence, we certainly don't need more than that to deter illegal immigration.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
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Stephens left out just how many Israeli soldiers died or were taken prisoner because of these flimsy "technical" walls inadequacies. Yes, these fences clearly helped, but not enough. Oddly Stephens does not discuss the failures of the Gaza fence in keeping out terrorists.
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This all assumes that Trumps wall is a solution to some problem. It should be clear by now that it isn't. It is just a symbol of trumps ego and an expression of Trump's and his base's racism. For the rest it's an expensive and completely useless boondoggle. And, as always, payed for by everybody but the one whose name it would bear.
The bad news is we face Trump and McConnell.
IN THE EARLY 70s The Sunday New York Times Magazine had a cover article by Jesse Jackson where he described what parents needed to do to help kids get ahead, a message to his intended audience of African Americans. He closed the article by observing that the ghettos of the mind (i.e., unformed, undisciplined and uneducated) were far more limiting than any physical ghetto. Donald Trump would do well to realize what Jesse Jackson wisely and presciently observed lo these many years. To wit, what is most important about national security at the borders is the development of a coherent set of strategies involving first analyzing the information about threats to safety. Followed by interventions when there are threats in progress. So the Israelis have trained security personnel, mostly females (males are more distractible) watching for signs of emerging threats, which they report to the armed forces who then respond. They use precisely the same model as is used by those monitoring drones, the most accurate form of response to threats. Trump wants to take the US back to the middle ages, like the lord of the manor. What's he going to do? Bring the serfs inside the castle walls if a hostile arme approaches? Besides, we're living in 2019, not during the Middle Ages. Yes, Trump's ideas are literally out of the middle ages. Do we need any further proof of the severity of his mental impairment? So somebody get him a set of Lego to build all the walls he wishes. Is that a Pres?
The other thing Bret forgot to mention is that Israel does not have free trade agreement with it’s neighbors. Our agreement with Mexico has tons of goods (and workers) moving across the border everyday. Do you think Big Business wants the border locked down Israeli Style - when all it would do is slow down commerce traffic? Big Money talks. To really take Security seriously like the Israelis -every truck crossing the border would have to be searched at length.....and that will never happen.
Republicans and Democrats should agree to build an Israeli-style “smart fence.”" Exactly! It would indeed be great if the Democrats returned to their traditional position of opposing illegal immigration and of building fences/barriers, which they suddenly abandoned when Trump ran for President. And we should indeed copy the Israeli approach. Namely, the fence on the Israel-Egypt border recently built for exactly the same reason: to curb the influx of illegal migrants from the south> Quote from the Wiki article:
Effects on illegal entry
While 9,570 citizens of various African countries entered Israel illegally in the first half of 2012, only 34 did the same in the first six months of 2013, after construction of the main section of the barrier was completed.[19][20][21] After the entire fence was completed, the number of migrant crossings had dropped to 16 in 2016.[22]
Egypt has said it did not object to the fence's construction, so long as it was built on Israeli soil.[13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_barrier
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Brett,
These situations are apples to oranges, but both policies for different reasons are totally misguided.
The Palestinians are seeking the freedom of their own State, rather than the Apartheid Israel is offering.
The South Americans are fleeting real danger from incompetent Governments, all they are looking for is safety to live, raise their families and earn of living. That was the original American dream.
Those are the very same reasons many migrants traveled to America. This is why, my father came. Most people don't willingly select to leave their homes, their families, their language for tremendous unknowns.
So now, your solution is to add 10 foot high gold letters to this wall, TRUMP (this is who we are now).
Right on Bret.
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$600M to build 12.5 miles of wall (20kilometers). for our 1950 mile border with mexico that translates into $93.6B. all for the president's vanity..... a wall that would soon be in disrepair and forgotten.
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The last paragraph is the only one that matters. Should have been the first.
Trump would march troops and roll missiles in military parades through the streets of American cities, he would build a "big beautiful Wall" along the full length of the US/Mexican border, and he uses a lot of gold in his decorating. If you've got it, flaunt it: words to live by.
Mexico and Canada are not your enemy. Mexico shows signs of becoming a huge success in becoming a liberal democratic society where even democratic socialists can win elections without an army coup. Forty seven percent of Mexicans see themselves as middle class and soon a higher percentage of Mexicans will be middle class than are Americans.There is already no danger of a flood of Mexicans seeking a better life in America. Other than those who need asylum from the cold it is hard to imagine anyone seeking asylum from Canada.
President Obrador showed you how to secure your Southern borders when he offered sanctuary to central american refugees. He then promised to help fix the dysfunction in Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvatore. He said even if the USA was unwilling to help repair the damage it help inflict he would work with China or anyone else to make sure there would not be a need to look for a secure life outside their home countries.
There was a time we would point to the USA/CAN as what a secure border looks like but today we are really having trouble sleeping with one eye open as we watch our southern neighbour's almost daily spasms.
1
Everything in this commentary is true. I myself have seen the wall in Jerusalem. I went on a trip to Bethlehem while visiting Israel a few years ago. When our bus got to the wall, we all had to get out and were herded into a little shop where we were served tea along with the text "would you like to buy this, and maybe this, and maybe that over there." Our Israeli tour guide had to stay on that side of the wall, a Palestinian guide was waiting for us on the other side. We had to walk down a long covered passageway, in the middle of which was a kid hawking postcards. We wondered who the kid knew to get such a prime gig. On the other side was a group of Palestinians waiting to cross over. I was embarrassed about how they had to wait while our group was let through. I have also seen the Berlin Wall, that was in 1977, when I was in high school. It was supplemented with vicious dogs and machine gun nests, the wall alone would never have stopped desperate East Germans from fleeing to the West, and some tried despite the dogs and the guns; some few made it. But all of that is irrelevant in this particular case. Donald Trump doesn't care about facts, there's only his gut and his sycophants at Faux News. Plus I'm sure he doesn't read commentary in the "failing" New York Times. The Trump Administration is a catastrophe in so many ways. This is just one of them.
Are you telling me you have not realized why we need the wall?
We need the wall to satisfy rural America that there is a physical wall at the southern border. As conservatives, they expect something tangible - like a wall or alligator moat.
You are presenting them with high-tech “liberal gizmos” which they neither understand nor care.
They need a wall. And further north they are, more is their need!!
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Trump should divert the roughly $4 billion US gives to Israel for his border wall, be it smart or dumb. I'm guessing much of the recent cooperation between Egypt and Israel is mostly due to natural gas from eastern Mediterranean offshore fields such as the Tamar and Leviathan fields. All of Israel's gas share goes to Egypt for processing before going out to market. This new petro-relationship needed a strongman in Egypt for it to go through. Strongmen are all the rage right now with some arts and letters types. Git 'r done.
What we need is a Bret Stephens of climate change. Or at least someone as equally enthusiastic about a specific subject matter. And of course someone who is as well spoken and written as Mr. Stephens is.
If CBP was allowed to shoot people crossing the border we wouldn't need much of a physical barrier either. Comparing this border to the U.S. border with Mexico is apples and oranges.
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Typical.
"our first priority should be to make it easier for them to arrive through the front door rather than sneak in through the back"
import workers, export jobs, typical open borders drivel of the 1%.
There we go again, urged to copy the Israelis. Hard to think of a worse idea. Even Bret reverses at the end and concedes that the Hondurans and Guatemalan families are not Hezbollah or Hamas or ISIS, but people who want to relieve their miserable plight, and that there are more intelligent long term solutions.
Mr, Stephens: I was appalled by your article & your lack of understanding of the situation in Israel. One thing is for sure, Donald Trump & Israel share a very fundamental point in common: their predilection for lying & their ability to convince people of their portrayal of reality.
The fence that Israel uses is less for self-protection than it is to keep millions of Palestinians from escaping it’s brutal military occupation. It is not about keeping out; it is about keeping in—akin to the Berlin Wall.
The fact is that most of the wall was constructed on Palestinian land, cutting through private individuals’ properties, rather than being built on Israel’s land.
Since the wall was constructed, Palestinians can no longer visit family members on the other side of the wall. Many can no longer attend school or go to work because the wall cuts them off. They can no longer tend their olive groves or herd their sheep on their own land because a wall now goes right through the middle of their property. The wall has divided the West Bank into little pieces, such that people must now go through checkpoints to travel from one town to another.
The purpose of Israel’s wall is not self-protection, but to harass & terrorize Palestinian civilians, making life so onerous for them, that they will want to flee to another country. Then Israel will have their land & be one step closer to becoming a pure Jewish state. The true purpose is ethnic cleansing. That is not something to emulate.
Just a thought from Canada. The main reason your president wants a real wall no matter what form that takes is that when he becomes your former commander in chief he wants something there to remind your citizens how great he was. Other presidents of course have libraries.
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This article is intended to prescribe a model for the border wall between the United States and Mexico. It shows instead that:
1. The United States cannot be as Inhumane and immoral as Israel in shooting any and everyone who approaches its border.
2. That the United States is not an illegal foreign force determined to continue to exist in spite of the resistance of the local inhabitants to its forcible presence.
3. The article is an example for the way the border barrier between the US and Mexico should not be.
4. The article written by an Israeli armed forces should not be published falsely representing the opinion of an American looking for what the United States should do to protect its border.
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Trump wants a wall because “wall” has only one syllable while the phrase “smart fence packed with electronic sensors” has ten, i.e. nine more syllables than Trump and many in his base are comfortable handling at one time. To those who criticize the idea of a wall Trump says “sound bite me.”
Schumer proposed this in 2013. Let’s get on with it.
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@Alan
Schumer did not propose any fencing. Some Democrats voted for the "secure fencing act" because the alternatives favored by the Republican controlled Congress were far worse. Since 2013, Republicans' multiple 'my way or the highway' actions have hardened Democrats' attitudes toward compromise. Republicans have not accepted the new reality that Dems control Congress and soon will control the Senate if they don't start working together.
But a fence is "IMMORAL", really, I heard Pelosi say it. It really does not matter what he builds, the other side will fight it. They really don't want to stop the flood if illegal aliens, they really want to drive down wages and make more money for themselves.
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It's a bit misleading not to talk about Israel's highly effective West Bank wall, which cut suicide bombings to nearly zero and which can be leveled the day after the Palestinians give up their dream of Jerusalem as the sole capital of Palestine, a right of return, and 100% of the West Bank and Gaza. We need a wall because we're looking to deter thousands of civilians. However, just as importantly, we need a National ID card like the ones that are issued in EU countries, and the proviso that one can do nothing in America -- not work, not rent an apartment, go to school, nothing but emergency stabilizing medical care -- without one, or a current valid visa card. Period, end of discussion. A wall, eVerify, and a card end this problem.
The border fence in Israel works because the soldiers are allowed to kill anyone breaching the fence. Are you suggesting Trump authorize the same? That he should authorize air strikes to kill people breaching the fence?
Instead of sound bites with reporters complaining about Trump’s threatened declaration of a National Emergence, they should demand that Mitch McConnell hold an open vote on the House bills to open the government, and, if they pass the Senate, forward them to Trump.
Autocrats are enabled by cowards and bootlickers. It’s time for a profile in courage in the Senate.
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What a terrible idea. Are we at the point of making the relationship with our peaceful neighbor comparable to Israel’s extremely fraught relationship with the Palestinians or other Arab nations? What an incredibly wrong headed essay. The last thing we need is to treat Mexico as our mortal enemy or as a terrorist haven. It is neither of those things. Where is this terrible animosity and paranoia coming from? Why are Americans falling for the hate and bigotry espoused by Trump? Let’s get a grip on reality and stop the hate towards our Latin neighbors.
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"The good news for the U.S. is that we don’t face Hezbollah, Hamas or ISIS across our border, only people who overwhelmingly want to relieve their own plight and contribute their labor for everyone’s betterment. "
Yeah, and they're NOT COMING ACROSS THE UNFENCED LAND BORDER, which is why this whole discussion is like talking to the tumbleweeds such a wall would block.
Comparing the Israeli fence with technology backed up with lethal force is a far cry from what a border between friends should look like. If that was the case, trump could just plant mines at the southern border and declare victory.
There are so many ways to control border crossings, fences being one of them. Closing the government over what used to b policy discussions is stupidity at its height. trump doesn't want Congress to interfere with his monarchy. That's why no paychecks are going out to millions of people today.
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Two points.
Let's not emulate Israeli border control. That's a Middle East quagmire.
The American people spoke in the midterm elections. Democrats get a huge say in any border security plans.
The Israelis did not have such a fence until the buses were being bombed, along with other incursions into Israel which led to terrorism (an attack on a hotel at a Passover seder, attended by many elderly Holocaust survivors). The fence is gut wrenching, but protects the population. Here, we still should be welcoming immigrants. If he builds his despicable wall, I hope they put up miniature statues of Liberty all along it.
The wall is a symbol of anti immigrant sentiment, it is the very anthesis of the statue of liberty.
It is an immorality not because it won't work keeping refugees out but because it will work as a monument to xenophobia.
Security has nothing to do with the desire for the wall.
If you believe in white supremacy then the wall is for you and Trumposo is the president you need on that wall.
Surely it’s obvious that Israel’s need to invest substantial financial and human resources is in no way analogous to our border with Mexico. We have many immigration problems, illegal border crossing between points of entry isn’t one of them.
This will definitely prevent the Bad Guys from getting into the country.
Oh, dang, wait. I forgot. Oceans! And Canada! And the sky! We're gonna have to put these fences everywhere!
So we can instead of a steel fence use electrified fences as shown in the photos, land mines, and call in air strikes. Do Democrats really prefer that?
The construction of fences along our southern border drives migrants to dangerous desert crossings. Indeed, this has already happened. The spike in deaths we are seeing is a largely untold tragedy. 3000 migrant bodies have been found in Arizona since 2000. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-border-wall-migrant-child-deaths_us_5c2fff8ee4b0d75a9830c556
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work
You probably hit the nail on the head in your second paragraph, even if you did not intend it so.
Two sworn enemies – that’s the rub, isn’t it? As far as I know, Mexico is not our sworn enemy, though Clown in Chief tries harder and harder to make it so. How can you possibly compare Lebanon/Israel to US/Mexico?
“So how does Israel maintain border security? Two ways: close cooperation with neighbors where it’s possible and the use of modern technology and effective deterrence where it’s not.”
Ah ha! Now you're closer to reality.
Cooperation. But our CIC does NOT know the meaning of the word.
At least your final paragraph gives me hope and something to agree with: look at why people migrate, provide enough personnel to process those who cross the southern border because they cannot afford plane fare like the vast majority of people who overstay their visas, and become illegal immigrants. You are right, they are nothing like ISIL, Hezbollah, or Hamas.
Bravo ! intelligent life still exist in America
So..build a wall and the Israelis pay for it?
Seriously, the reason why the deplorables liked the idea of a thirty foot concrete wall all along the southern border is that they liked the idea of a physical manifestation of their contempt for Latin immigrants visible from space. The demand that Mexico pay for it was just another expression of contempt. Security had nothing to do with it.
Finally, a sensible "wall". Can you please go on Fox News and talk about this? It seems that is the only way to relay information to Trump. Don't forget to take drawings or pictures and no big words, please.
The editorial was fine until the last paragraph. Did you speak to any Israeli citizens to obtain their opinion of protecting the American border? Did you speak to the Americans who reside in border communities who have to live with the serious issues arising from their illegal activities? Instead of travelling to Israel why not just go to an American border town and get the truth as to what is really happening there. You may also want to speak to some non-liberal Americans in NYC. It would be nice to read what the other half thinks in the NYT.
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Israel is not a model for US border issues. Our problem is not an existential threat that Israel believes it faces from the Arab world. Our problem is an unworkable immigration law passed over 50 years ago, setting quotas based on countries of origin. It can be revisited.
We need to stop meddling in Latin and South America (remember the contras, Allende's assassination, etc.?), control our drug crisis, invest in more immigration legal services, and welcome immigrants as America always has. Demographically, we need them.
It is ironic that President Trump's mother, two of his wives, and his current in-laws, were ALL immigrants! A wall will not keep out immigrants. It will just redirect them.
176
@Mary K. Lund. I agree with most of what you say, but am offended by your "Israel believes it faces". I am tired of people minimizing our existential threat, usually without any basis in facts or understanding. I am tired of CNN's informing style: Israel killed two Palestinians. They say this is because they killed an Israeli soldier. If you listen a lot to this kind of reporting, you obviously won't believe the Israeli version of events. You would think Israelis just wake up in the morning and start killing Palestinians for the heck of it. If America killed two enemy soldiers because they killed an American, it would never be phrased this way.
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@Mary K. Lund
The "Tall and Sturdy" fence along the Egyptian border is designed to keep illegal African migrants from entering Israel. The new $500 million concrete wall replacement along Lebanon border is being constructed due to incursions from Hamas. The Syrian fortified fence has stopped ISIS terrorists. So @Mary K. Lund there are some direct analogies to Trumps steel barrier.
In fact, STEPHENS RECOMMENDS an "Israeli-style barrier along our Southwest border with Mexico.
6
@Mary K. Lund "welcome immigrants as America always has. Demographically, we need them."
The U.S. population is around, what, 330 million I think. There are literally 100's of millions of people around the world who would move to the U.S. if they could (yes, literally--Pew does international polls on this).
How large would you like to see the U.S. population grow? At what number will we no longer "demographically need" immigrants? 500 million? 700 million? How crowded should our roads and cities be, how much more out of control our housing costs, how much more crowded our schools, how much more pressure on our water and other natural resources? Is the answer that we have to grow forever, until our cities look like cities in Brazil or India, crammed with shanty towns?
22
I want the opinions of Texas landowners and corporations that reside in southern Texas. Eminent Domain will take their land. Or is there an attractive real estate deal included with that 5.6 billion?
Unfortunately, most Americans do not want "real". We rally around symbols and suffer from cognitive biases conditioned by emotions and faulty reasoning. Those who still demand a "wall" will not be persuaded by facts and reason.
But before you start gloating, how do you feel about TSA and airport security? Objective study shows the TSA to be about as porous as a border wall.
We could replace both with more effective methods, but then people would have to give up security theater. And we do love our theater.
the more precise question is : what do we want to do; what should we do to handle the obvious cry for help and entry by people who chose for many good reasons to abandon their own country and seek residence and opportunity here in the U?
Yes, that then raises a ton of other questions and all beg for answers. There are interest groups backing all kinds of "solutions" and years have passed while most of this has been ducked by politicians seeking their own opportunities.
3
This approach makes sense as it may placate each side of the aisle and enable the shutdown to end. Considering all the planning involved and the ensuing lawsuits related to eminent domain, the actual building will take years to begin and most likely will never be completed as changes in federal and local government take place through elections. So let us agree on a plan, have a party, and let this foolishness become a footnote in history.
1
No, Bret. The solution is not to make entry through a designated door easier. The solution is for the U.S. to stop overthrowing governments. The most recent travesties happened in the Obama administration when the president and his secretary of state decided to join a regime change in Libya and support a military coup against a leftie elected president in Honduras. As with Guatemala and Iran in the 1950s and El Salvador in the '80s, U.S. presidents in violation of international law and without congressional authorization decided to overthrow governments they didn't like. The world continues to reap the consequences. The US government will not agree to admit all the desperate migrants from countries it pushed off their developmental paths, but it does owe reparations, and a pledge to stop regime changes.
8
Focusing on the wall or preventing refugees from reaching America by manufacturing a crisis is misguided and hugely ignorant of the history of our country.
I would much prefer to see the United States go back to a time when we had fewer restrictions on immigration and especially on refugees, because they have done so very much to build America. Look at them not as a problem but rather as an infusion of new blood, new ideas, new people who are delighted to be here and work here in safety and security and with a chance to build good lives for themselves and their kids and contribute to the vitality and growth of America.
We should be welcoming refugees - people like your parents, grandparents or ancestors, you know, the reason you're here at all and not the completely unhealthy, dangerous or otherwise unsatisfactory places your ancestors came from.
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@Porter The migrants of today are an expense to the US taxpayer - illiterate, no skills, too many children = the taxpayer in on the hook for these migrants. Basically we neitherh need nor want this class of migrants who are really economic migrants bringing all sorts of disease with them.
The migrants that used to come did not require so much US taxpayer assistance. They were coming to primarily agrarian economy where was needed wast the strength and willingness to work on the land. That is no longer the case.
4
@Porter I would be happy to have these folks as long as we can return one for one and they get "fixed" so no having large families. We neither need nor desire mass immigration, this country is already over populated.
2
@judyweller
Wrong on so many levels.
Undocumented immigrants generate more than twice as much to our economy than they consume.
The disease comment is in the minds of Americans who have a disease.
Who picks your lettuce and oranges and butchers your chickens and pigs ? The vast majority of that workforce are migrants.
3
We had the technology during the last administration.
2
A big difference between here and Israel are the consequences of breaching the border; there you are going to be arrested and probably jailed, for a significant period and then deported; here you may be detained, but very likely released in the US pending a court date, which you may or may not choose to attend.
While the article on Israel makes perfect sense in terms of using modern technology to secure our borders, this is only part of our problem here; we need legislation that deals with a myriad of issues, including giving “dreamers” and law abiding undocumented persons a chance to secure a pathway to citizenship, “after” we get the Mexican border better secured.
2
Israel's wall is to keep out terrorists. It's not faced with 300,000 migrants every year. this article is a very mistaken comparison. I am not in favor of a Trump branded wall, but a better argument can be made than this one.
5
@Sunny Izme -- and Israel's security border isn't a wall, it's generally three fences, a ditch to stop vehicles, a lot of intrusion detectors and two ingredients nobody in this discussion is talking about:
* landmines
* they shoot to kill
That's what makes the Israeli barrier work, it's what makes the DMZ work, and it's what made the East German barrier work.
Trump's wall is idiot -- if you want to stop people you need to kill most of those who try.
Thank you Bret Stephens for providing one of the first truly objective analyses about how to do border protection. It is unreasonable to state that a border barrier is simply immoral. But we certainly don't need a Game of Thrones level wall to ward off the inflated threats of caravans of terrorists. Everybody needs to get at least a little real and the Israelis are living a true reality. Let's look at our own American situation and realistically plan for the future.
2
@LeGEE Israelis are not living a true reality that matches the opinions put forth in this article. Israelis have trapped millions of Palestinians in an open air concentration camp known as Gaza, another notch in the argument that strong borders are a result of strong neighbors. If we want to mitigate the immigration problem, or if Israel wants to mitigate its fear of the Palestinians, then both countries must recognize the other factors that create the environments that cause these problems. The War on Drugs being one for America, and Israel's blockade of goods and people in Gaza.
Quote: “If we really wanted to secure the border, our first priority should be to make it easier for them to arrive through the front door rather than sneak in through the back.”
Wrong.
Try removing the incentives that drive Central Americans to want a better life somewhere else. Start with the War on Drugs, which more than any other US policy has destabilised, impoverished, and corrupted the countries to the south.
.
4
Fencing is simply not sexy enough. Trumps wall would be a gauntlet in his mind. In an ideal world, Trump, leaders of each congressional party, and actual nonpartisan security experts would visit Israeli borders and talk about how these same combinations of physical structures could be deployed on our southern border. But that is living in a dream world.
A very good idea.
Although the Israel-Lebanon border is under 50 miles.
Although, I wonder if such issues as the length of the border, terrain, cooperation with Mexico and countries South.
1
Of course, if we really wanted to solve the problem...we'd use the $5.7 billion to hire a ton of ICE agents to raid businesses that employ illegals. ICE could then continue funding its operations with fines paid by said employers. It wouldn't really take that long. Once the illegals can no longer find work, they'll self-deport.
But, we don't REALLY want to solve the problem.
6
@Ryan Probably because it is not a problem. These people are needed. We just require a better system for dealing with them.
@Chuck Burton
You do realize that the United States was doing just fine before this wave of illegal immigration, right? We had housekeepers, cooks, and roofers. The difference was that they made wages high enough on which to actually raise a family.
Why is Stephens comparing Korea and Israel to the border needs of the United States? We are not at war with Mexico. People are not carrying grenades across the border. They are carrying babies. Does Stephens think the people carrying "drugs" as Trump wants every one to imagine should be seen as "enemies" of the state like Israel sees "infiltrators readying for war"? There mere conflation is extremely wrong.
Trump's needs for a wall have nothing to do with "Border Security" and everything to do with symbolism and a need to have an "enemy" to generate political enthusiasm for his empty political career. Why would Stephen's serve as Trump's stooge here and act like it was something else? The democrats are "for Border Security"--they are AGAINST symbolically and inhumanely threatening people who are being racially scapegoated for useless political gain.
3
@Chris You forget that Stephens is a neo-Conservative. It is not that he is not smart enough to figure these things out, but that his ideology forbids him to consider them.
Fact is there is a deal to be made here. There is nothing in the world Trump wants more than this wall, or fence if Mr Stephen's suggestion flies. The democrats have a long wishlist to choose and negotiate from. This is how government is supposed to work...compromise. Lets get DACA and/or single payer care and/or higher education spending....the list goes on. Trump claims to be a deal maker so call him on it and offer him one. At the moment the Dems just say no wall...period. Let's give a little to make big improvements to the country.....
2
Trump's wall will be his excuse to declare a "national emergency", which he will then try to expand (with McConnell & the GOP egging him on ) into full martial law.
1
Our family vacation to Big Bend National Park, which is bordered by the Rio Grande, took us to this area last summer. Smart wall tech is the way to go -- not medieval ramparts. By the way, the border is highly secure anyway -- right now. MILES before you get to the border all vehicles go through checkpoints. Agents told me that folks crossing the border cross on foot then rendezvous with a vehicle. They are checking those -- and have been for a long time.
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@John C. Van Nuys
My recent experience confirms what you found out. We just came back from a family trip to southern Arizona, specifically to Organ Pipe Cactus NM, which borders Mexico.
We stayed in Ajo, a small town to the north, where we observed daily border patrol helicopter flights. For 2 days, we passed back and forth through a checkpoint on a highway that ran through the Monument. We drove for miles alongside the border on a desert road lined by sturdy crossed beams of steal that presumably deters vehicles from crossing into the U.S., but which otherwise would not stop man nor animal from setting foot here. About every 10 minutes, a border patrol vehicle could be seen patrolling along the fence; occasionally, we would pass another border patrol suv concealed behind desert plants.
What we did not see were hordes of potential border crossers, drug smugglers, coyotes, rapists or terrorists.
The Border Patrol agents were ubiquitous, to be sure, but judging by their waves and smiles when they passed us, they didn't seem stressed out by their job. In fact, no resident we met seemed concerned that Arizona was about to be overrun.
A National Emergency? Hardly.
24
There is a solution to illegal immigration - it's called e-Verify. It should be made mandatory and employers penalized for hiring illegal immigrants. Without jobs, illegal immigrants will (in Mitt Romney's words) self-deport.
But neither side wants this. The Republicans like the availability of cheap labor, and the Democrats think more Hispanics will boost their voting base.
4
@J. Waddell -- illegals can't, and don't, vote.
1
@J. Waddell The strength of this country has always been new blood. Without immigrants who is going to pick the food, repair our homes and sustain the Social Security system?
Stephens should have expanded on his last paragraph rather than acting as a fence v. wall judge.
In that paragraph he noted that our "problem" is dealing with people who want to come to our country because they like us and are seeking work and safety. Our situation is completely unlike Israel's.
Trump could not care less about "moral" concerns - he wants a wall for one reason only: he campaigned on it and is terrified of looking like a "loser."
He doesn't want it for our welfare - he wants it so he can crow about how tough he is.
3
Bret, surely you were not serious when you suggested that, instead of a physical wall, Trump consider “modern technology” and a “smart fence”. This is the man who virtually shut down all consideration of actual science in Federal government agencies, said that climate always changes and then changes back, and who is touting coal as the fuel of the future.
This whole thing is not about a wall or a debate about the best way to ensure border security. It is about energizing Trump’s base after some bad mid-term losses, demonizing Democrats and then, after his emergency funding for the wall is overturned by the courts, claiming that the “deep state” and “mainstream media” is after him again. Same story, different day.
2
The worst thing about the wall is ignored by most of the media. The people who have farm/ranches on the border don't want it as their livelihood would be ruined and the migration patterns of the animals who live on both sides would be trashed. Just another nail in the coffin of species other than our own. Human proliferation at the behest of religion south of the border helps fuel the problems created by our support of corporate colonialism in that same south.
The Wall is not about protecting the border. It is about racism and blaming the "other" for economic conditions at home.
Many of Trump's base have seen declining real income for decades. Many lost high paying factory jobs that are never coming back. Something must be blamed and it cannot possibly policies that enrich America's most wealthy. How convenient that there are Central Americans.
PS The Wall is not going to work until we decide to use lethal force as the article says the Israelis do. It's not impossible for the Racist-In-Chief to do that to save us all from the imagined ills of the caravans. He is already looking at denying disaster relief for his symbolic Wall.
2
"Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build"
Because the Wall is a symbol of America's war within. The Coastal elites see themselves held hostage by Mid-America kingmakers. Flood the Midwest with immigrants and Democrats cement their hold on the White House. Ask de Blasio if he would even have a border. The answer would be a resounding No! Ask any of the new crop of Democrats if they would enforce the border. Again No! Why? Borders are colonial methods of oppression.
Now ask Republicans how they can deny suffering Mexicans what America granted their fathers? Add to that President Grant's assertion that the Mexican War was as unjust as any in history: in essence a war crime. Finally, the greatest transgressors of borders are Christians: because the Great Commission commands them to do so, and they have obeyed from one end of the world to the other. A Christian has no "continuing State," because he is commanded to be a pilgrim or migrant. How can any Christian deny to others what he himself practices with impunity?
Democrats hope the Wall will become a longstanding mine-field for Republicans. One the one hand, erected by decree, it will symbolize the first muddying of the dreaded Rubicon, creating a fatal precedent. It will aggravate the loathing of RHINO and Tea-Party for each other, and the notion of America reduced to hiding behind concrete may strike some as the beginning of the end. A grim fatalism. Hardly a vote getter.
“The good news for the U.S. is that we don’t face Hezbollah, Hamas or ISIS across our border, only people who overwhelmingly want to relieve their own plight and contribute their labor for everyone’s betterment. If we really wanted to secure the border, our first priority should be to make it easier for them to arrive through the front door rather than sneak in through the back.”
Brent, from your pen to our leader’s minds. With Dem control of the House the Freedom Caucus can no longer sabotage good policy. A little bit of wall, a lot of fence combined with deals for DACA and other immigration issues would give a win for Dems, for Trump and for the country. Who will show true leadership? I am afraid no one will.
1
A big difference between Israel’s requirements and the US is Israel’s aggressive use of lethal force on people attempting to cross the border - such as missles as the commentary describes and even landmines. I don’t think that is the trchnology approach Democrats alude to.
Israel also needs the option of driving tanks through whatever section of border the IDF needs to go through.
At different portions of the border different approaches may be best. What is best for each section of border is best determined by engineers not by the White House or Congress or NY Times columnists.
The current philosophy from this administration is to reverse the trend of America becoming a white minority country and, at the same time, stop providing aid to countries that won't (in reality can't) pay to stabilize their societies. In the past we shored up dictatorships to keep the masses in check. That, however, failed and the citizens in these places directed their anger toward America who paid for the plight imposed by those dictators. Obama tried to admit this and reset relations with the people in those places to try and mitigate the anger and violent intent toward the U.S. and try and help them change their own governments. Trump felt that this was weak and we should reset relations with the dictators and corrupt politicians that are making life miserable for their citizens. That returning to a time when human rights were thrown into the trash heap was the way to go. And they way to control the anger and resentment the people in other parts of the world have toward us and the desire for the people in those places to escape to a better life is to close off our country completely to those people. The spring loaded peanut brittle sprung out of the can and Trump is trying to put it back, ignoring the nature of that substance is to escape a pressurized environment. At the same time he is suppressing the free press so no one hears about how bad things are. In other words, be more like them than being like us. The experiment that is America becomes a failure.
Dear Bret,
Very well reasoned and researched article about the reality of borders. However, your statement, ''Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing in places where it’s missing and call it, for political effect, an “Israeli-style barrier”?'' is not in touch with the reality of Trump. You know as well as anyone that there is no way to get ''agreement'' with Trump on this. Trump is the Wall and the Wall is Trump, this is the logic of identity or delusion, as in '' I am Napoleon'' . You can't talk to delusion. You either oppose it or get incorporated into it. In the same vein, Mitchell McConnell is Trump and the Senate does not exist as a functioning institution.
1
First we are not at war and have no military conflict with Mexico or the Central American countries. Second we don't have a 250mile border, we have a 2,000 mile border. Third the argument is about a "Wall", not a fence. More importantly, this is becoming a crisis of confidence and perhaps a constitutional crisis over a campaign pledge. The president is growing more and more dangerous and represents fewer and fewer people. He is shaking us all down and exacerbating partisan differences all of which is extremely dangerous and destructive. There is no lipstick on this pig. Republicans need to get serous about the damage being done and fix it, it is in their court.
What's the point of using an example of a country that actually needs to secure its borders since it's at war with neighbors sending massive number of terrorists over its borders when we're definitely not a war with Mexico?
Trump's own administration stated that no terrorists come through America's southern border. In July 2017, the Trump State Department said there was "no credible information that any member of a terrorist group has traveled through Mexico to gain access to the United States." According to separate DHS data for 2017, all the people on the terrorist watch list encountered by U.S. officials tried to enter through airports (2,170) or by sea (49).
You present the false idea that this ends if "Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing...and call it, for political effect, an "Israeli-style barrier." First off, we're not at war, so no barrier on American soil should be named for one constructed because of a brutal war 7,000 miles away. You're also doing what you always do, giving Trump a pass, and giving Senate Republicans cover.
There's no point in your fence and you know it. The problem begins and ends with Trump and Senate Republicans. Trump will never accept anything but a wall; ask Ann Coulter. Senate Republicans know Trump is wrong. They have the votes to reopen the government, but Mitch McConnell won't let the Senate vote. His strategy: Let Trump destroy America and bet people will blame either Trump or House Democrats.
1
I’m all for a hi tech “smart” border like the Israelis have. Except, there really is no equivalent of Hamas or Hezbollah coming up from Mexico. Cartels are a problem, but not in an existential way like Hezbollah would be if they were to infiltrate Israel’s north.
If Trump had argued for this type of hi tech, less visually imposing barrier from the outset, he would have had it yesterday. But, he boxed himself in.
Good column except for the ending. We have far too much immigration. The reason why it's so hard to do anything about the border is that big biz GOPers, including the Koch brothers, the Bushes, the Federalists, like the cheap, easily exploitable labor caused by an oversupply, and the Dems think--probably correctly--that most illegal immigrants will become Democratic voters once legalized.
Those who suffer are American workers, whose wages have risen almost not at all in the last three-plus decades. We have the lowest labor participation rate in more than 35 years.
4
To highlight that the Democrats are not “soft” on border security just because they oppose Trumps midieval wall, they should posthaste introduce a bill which employs 21st century technology to secure the border.
That could be a win-win for the country. Democrats would prove their commitment to border security,Republicans would get their virtual wall, and the country could finally end this costly and useless shutdown.
Thank goodness we have neighbors who only want to get into our country to work and pay taxes, rather than destroy the country like Hamas and Hezoballah. When was the last time Mexico shot rockets over the border to American civilian communities?
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@Concerned citizen
Democrats proposed such at least 5 times in the last 6 years.
7
Here's an idea. Avoid having to build a wall altogether by fixing the problems in the Central American countries these people are fleeing from.
1
"Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing in places where it’s missing and call it, for political effect, an “Israeli-style barrier”?"
I think you know the answer Bret but I'll state it anyway: Democrats and Republicans probably would support it, only Trump rejects the idea. Ever since Ann Coulter framed it as the defining issue of Trump's presidency he has become obsessed with building it. The idea started as an applause line at Trump rallies and never had any logical basis, he sees it as a life and death struggle for his political survival.
Your Israeli comparison misses the mark, by the way. Israel actually does have enemies to fear on their border, (we can debate the reasons for that), but there is no one on our southern border shooting at us. This is a manufactured crisis, created by our adolescent in chief.
1
Has it occurred to anyone that the shutdown is aimed at investigations of Trump? Or that, seeing his own unavoidable destruction in sight, he'll wreak all the damage he can out of spite for our lack of gratitude at his magnificence?
1
Brett Stephens is allowing his anti-Trump animus to not only cloud his judgment but to make him willfully blind to facts. There is a vast difference between an electronically wired fence meant to identify possible military invasion, and a barrier needed to prevent mobs of civilians (which often include murderous terrorists) from simply crashing into territory that is not theirs. Indeed the walls Israel erected to prevent such civilian invasion and terrorist incursions is hardly a wire fence.They are solid walls. And for good reason. It would behoove Bret Stephens to have gone to those barriers and found out why they were constructed so differently than the wire fence along the Lebanese border. But then Stephens knows all this very well. His spin betrays his bias.
1
@JJ Gross
There is no evidence of “murderous terrorists” trying to sneak across the southern border. If you were a “murderous terrorist”, why trudge for miles through desert to finally get to your target, when it is so much easier to either fly into the US or recruit people already here (including citizen) over the Internet?” The country is not at risk from the southern border. We are not at war with Mexico or Central America. We have problems with drug traffic (gee, if only Americans didn’t love their narcotics so much; and pay so much money for them!); human trafficking; and migrants. The solution is not a wall - it is getting our border patrol and TSA workers back to paid work; hiring more of these workers; and changing our immigration laws to accommodate both employers who depend on immigrant labor and those who have lived here for years without documentation.
Even Trump and Neilsen are not yet ready to call an air strike on those detected crossing our border illegally.
We are not Israel with deadly hostile neighbors.
We need to put our energy, money and organizations into improving the lives of those in Central America so they do not have to leave their homes and embark on a very perilous journey to find safety and a better lives for their children.
This could be done at a fraction of the costs we spend in 'defending' our border.
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@Edward Blau Yep, if there is one thing we've learned in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. it's that nation-building is cheap and easy. The U.S. is really great at going into other countries and fixing their problems.
5
@Tom
You're saying that what's been done to Iraq and Afghanistan is to improve lives?
3
@Edward Blau NO absolutely NO, how about we find a way to reduce their population?? We don't have money for our poor, so no money for theirs.
1
By the time the environmental studies are completed and the eminent domain lawsuits wound up, it will be 2030 and the wall will cost over 70 billion. Mexico will no longer be our ally.
1
A well reasoned column!
Those opposed to The Wall must call their representatives and senators. We can open the government, then negotiate sensible, workable solutions to immigration issues. As Mr. Stephens and many comments suggest, there are sensible, humanitarian solutions.
4
Excellent article, well researched, and 1 wonders why Trump is calling for a wall when Israel's fencing and high security apparatus accomplish the same purpose. But we would not know this if Mr. Stephens had not taken the trouble to go to Israel and visit the fortification. This may prove to be the breakthrough, face saving, that both sides here can agree on, and end the impasse and re open the government. Why was this not thought of before? Re Pelosi, she is fortunate at her age to not only be relevant when many her age have been relegated to a category of tertiary importance, but she is in the limelight, spotlight to boot. Am reminded of Count Leslie, a gay Englishman, septuagenarian whom I visited in 1961 with a friend , Ned Stewart, well known author,"BALLERINA"was 1 of his best books. But I digress. We visited Count Leslie who was surrounded by an adoring entourage of followers in the ramshackle building in which he lived, and Stewart remarked about how lucky the gay Englishman was at his advanced age to be recognized, indeed adored. So when I think of Pelosi am reminded of Count Leslie. Stewart, by the way, died of AIDS and left everything to his lover at his death.
One of the problems with trying to transpose an Israeli style barrier to the southern border of the U.S. is - paradoxically - that we don't have terrorists trying to come across to cause mayhem, we have families who are fleeing violence and poverty and are seeking work and opportunity.
Bret says that when the Israelis detected a group of terrorists moving toward the border, they called in an air strike.
If we detect a group of migrants moving toward the border, we don't want to harm them. That makes our problem harder to handle.
5
@Charley Darwin: 1 never knows who might wish to come across and cause havoc. By the way, incident I referred to in previous comment took place in the 18eme in Paris where Count Leslie lived.
@Charley Darwin Mexico is an ally, not an enemy. And, Israel's wonderful fence is barely 180 miles long,
@Alexander Harrison
How precious.
Is there any professional entity or individual able to bring forward arguments for/against a border barrier and what shape it should take? So far, the argument for a physical, concrete or metal, wall has been presented by Trump's gut.
2
As the American Gothic painting reenactment of Pelosi and Schumer proved my party no longer cares about controlling the borders. But what the meaning of a high tech security? Contracts. All that new technology needs research and developement. Lawyers have to look into the legalities. Environmentalist need to do impact studies. Big money is goi g to be made and the right people have to get them. Trump wants to do it on the cheap with a rusted out fence. Not his first choice but he doesn't think to much. He leads.
So who gets the contracts?
1
There are many things about security that the Israelis can teach us. One is the important reminder to speak softly the words "Don't tread on me" and carry a big stick. If there ever was a symbolic border fence the one shown in the Stephens article is it - notwithstanding some very advanced technology. The courageous Israelis live with the threat of annihilation and are prepared to strike back and to strike preemptively. Perhaps Stephens should recommend a simple fence supported by military force to be exercised with extreme prejudice and ask Nancy and Chuck if that will work. It will probably cost more than one dollar.
The problem is the US offers legal means through which people can enter the country - not unlike every other country in the world - that some people don't want to use and we cannot know their intention. If the author thinks that Ellis Island was designed as some great monument to freedom he is mistaken. It was a means of tagging all the documented and undocumented flooding the US near the turn of the 19th century - New Orleans and Toronto were other less controlled gateways.
Those who wag their finger at the US are not as righteous as they seem - ask Mutti how her countrymen feel about Syrians; try setting up permanent residence in the EU as an American citizen. Tokyo? Shanghai? Sydney? Wellington? Try stowing away with family on a freighter to say Rotterdam, walking to Barcelona and starting an undocumented life. What DOES real border security look like?
5
@Pelerin
"with military force to be exercised with extreme prejudice."
Right, because women and children from Guatemala are equivalent to suicide bombers?
Give me a break.
@Michael Milligan
The comparison to the Israeli situation was drawn by Stephens as an illustration of what real border security looks like. The Israelis use deadly force as they deem necessary as part of their program to protect themselves whomever gets in the way. My point is we need to decide what we want to do if/when individuals attempt to cross the border illegally. Is it telling them to go back with the hope they will listen or paying for their return journey and maybe a little extra cash for their troubles with the hope that they will not try again or granting them access to valuable resources in the forms of free education and healthcare with the hope that we will be rewarded many times over or paying foreign governments to prevent their people from leaving with the hope that the funds will be used to improve conditions there and not make the emigres disappear? Before we answer, should we ask ourselves whether we still believe it is not too much to want to ask the immigrants a few questions prior deciding to let them in and perhaps do background checks? Are we asking too much of them to apply for entry? Perhaps we should set up processing stations in other countries, give the lucky ones ID papers (SSNs), drop them in strategic locations in the US and take some money out of their paychecks for our troubles. Thankfully we're only talking about innocent women and children from Guatemala and not MS13 members from El Salvador. We could use that break right about now.
The reason that a serious 21st-century attempt at security is not proposed is because security is not the point of the wall.
7
The "wall" should be one of employment verification. If there are no jobs unless here under legal means, this would send a much stronger message. This summer, there was a crack-down in our area on lawn care companies and some of them had to curtail service as there were suddenly not enough workers
6
With regard to Mr. Stephens’ closing line, I think Trump is more of a back door kind of guy.
3
Comparing the Blue Line to the US's Southern Border is a false equivalency. Israel is at war with Lebanon, and with the groups-notably ISIS and Hezbollah-that have a large presence there. Who is Trump trying to keep out? People who want to pick vegetables, clean houses, mow lawns, work construction and wash dishes? And don't forget, potential employers in the US want a steady stream of illegals coming north from Latin America. Cutting off the flow entirely would result in substantially higher wages for large groups of low-paid laborers and, as a consequence, lower profits.
5
Have any of the folks commenting here actually been to the Southwest border? The Blue Line discussed here is 49 miles long. Our border with Mexico is thousands of miles long. Most of it runs through desolate areas. Even if you had a camera every 100 yards that picked up activity it would take the Border Patrol - in many cases - hours to get there. Do you think the illegals and their coyotes are just going to sit down and wait for the border patrol to arrive?
The only solution to cutting off the stream of illegal immigrants is to cut off their job opportunities here.
But, I'm not convinced anyone is truly looking for a solution.
8
The difference is that Israel recognizes the need for national security, and we in the USA are divided between those who recognize the need and those who want to let everybody in williy-nilly. The tiny government shutdown is an inconvenience that is absolutely necessary to unseat the uncontrolled power of the entrenched bullies that have been running the show for much too long. They want nothing more than to be in power - real power, not just voting for legislation, but to rule.
9
A barrier is only as good as the strength of its monitoring. So we must insist on using our money for both.
And I love the contention that women have longer attention spans. I believe men would agree. ;)
4
Yes, I've seen a secure border. I lived near the East German border in the 1980s. Machine gun emplacements, mines, self firing machine guns.
It was precisely the sort of thing that justified American opposition to the Soviets.
9
As sensible as is Mr. Stephens' sentiment, and those commenting here, the impasse is the president's obsession with a shrine. He wants his Mt. Rushmore and a fence with barbed wire, no matter how smart it might be, won't pass that muster.
He needs to be able to point to a structure and say "I did that."
8
No. I would imagine that is a false conclusion based on untruth and hatred. Perhaps not yours, but those who have shaped your opinions over time. I'm sure Trump would be overly proud, but at least it would be something that worked. 44 was proud of the ACA, which is anything but. The entrenched bullies from both major parties have been playing the public for years, planning how to pit us against each other...a bit of information I got from someone who was actually in the room as they planned and laughed about what they would make us think. It made him sick to his stomach, and he left the inner workings.
I'm willing to bet that, like me, you would prefer civil and intellectual discourse that would produce mutually agreeable and productive outcomes. That hasn't been available in either house of Congress for quite some time. They have forgotten that they are our employees, and should be leaders, not our rulers.
1
It seems that we are debating the merits of spending 5.7 billion dollars on a barrier when we should be debating the merits of ending the shutdown now and then discussing border security.
17
We already have fences along the border in places where they're needed, and there is no immigrant "invasion." What we do need are comprehensive immigration reform, a DACA deal, a more humane way of dealing with asylum seekers, more immigration judges to handle their applications, better monitoring of visa overstays and stronger interdiction of drugs coming through legal entry points. Israel's "fence" may have reduced terrorist attacks but it has also fueled massive Palestinian resentment, creating a never-ending cycle of violence. And our own government statistics show there is no terrorist infiltration along our southern border.
16
@Christy Israel/Palestine is not a cycle of violence. In a cycle of violence, each attack is in response to the last attack so if either party doesn't retaliate, the cycle is broken. If Israel didn't retaliate, Palestinians would continue to attack because it's fueled by racism, not just resentment.
The root cause of this conflict is that Palestinians believe that they are superior to the Jews & therefore should rule over the Jews. Because the Jews don’t want to be ruled by the Palestinians, then some Palestinians believe that the Jews should be exterminated. The Palestinians say “The Jews are our dogs!” & “The Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs.”
It's not Palestinian resentment. It's Palestinian hatred for Israel, and nothing will ever quell that.
1
I think the neighbors are also quite aware that Israel will fight at whatever level is necessary, regardless of collateral damage, to protect itself. The "who us?" nuclear weapon threat is an added incentive.
Not exactly the situation with Mexico.
10
Robert McNamara tried to build an electronic wall along the DMZ between N and S Vietnam. It was a miserable failure, The better example of border defense is the East German border. The East Germans used a combination of multiple walls, wire barracades , watch towers, and electronic sensors, a few people occasionally got through underneath it, very few got over it on foot.
4
@lru and mines, machine guns, razor wire. Precisely the kind of abomination that justified opposition to Russian occupation.
If that's what America has become, it no longer has any justification to exist, frankly.
But the Democrats are proposing what is described in the article---maybe I am not following what Chuck and Nancy are saying, or what a bipartisan group of Senators agreed to a few weeks ago, but Congress is on board with smart border control strategies---which, Chuck said could include some sort of fencing---But NO, this kind of thinking is a far beyond the intellectual capacity of our Wall in Chief.
7
Call me progressive, but it seems much more sensible to spend the $5B, (or even less) in using the new technology available, (drones...) to secure our border. Building immigration centers (at the border & in larger cities where immigrants are drawn to start off at) including, hiring more personnel to process & manage immigrants in an organized fashion. The long term jobs it would create in those border areas, and wherever the demand is, could be a win- win for many. The brick & mortar wall@ a $5B cost will just be throwing good money to bad with very little return.
12
Trump's campaign promise was etched in stone by his repeated descriptions of its makeup. Why wouldn't his supporters accept an even better wall? Because it is fear that drives their need for security, and fear is not logical. Objective reality is not a strength of those who support trump. That we have been able to divide the electorate by fear is not new, that it continues to work shows how effective a con-man he is. The the GOP can not confront him shows how weak their character is.
8
What matters is response time.
If you build a wall that takes an hour to climb over or cut thru, and the response time is many hours, then the barrier does nothing effective.
Conservatives keep asking "why do prisons have walls if they are not effective". The guards keep the prisoners in. The walls slow a prisoner down (a lot, given the tools available in a prison). And the guards are armed in watchtowers. It is the guards watching that really works.
This Israeli-Lebanon border is an example of a well watched border. And a border with a fast response time. Unless we have roads, and Border agents stationed remotely, or helicopters ready to go, remote areas will be undeterred.
And I agree whole-heartedly that the most important answer is a better legal immigration process.
15
Mexico and the U.S. are not "sworn enemies", so why a wall?
Because Trump's friend, Steve Bannon decided that if this was Trump's mantra it would get the most attention for Trump's candidacy. Bannon was right. It worked, because appealing to people's fears always works.
That said, no one is saying that Border Security is not necessary, The people who live in the U.S. towns at the border, for the most part are not in favor of a wall. They are in favor of more 21st century solutions.
NPR ran a story yesterday interviewing the people of Brownsville including the Mayor. There were some of the residents who thought the wall was needed. But most did not think it was the way to go. The Mayor spoke of all of the landowners who would not have access to their lands and also of the fact that the Rio Grande is plunk in the middle of where Trump wanted to put the wall. This would cause all kinds of problems, both environmentally and practically.
I hope common sense starts dawning on the Republicans in the Senate and the House. They have the total responsibility for this shutdown. They could have voted for the budget and sent it to Trump for approval. When Trump vetos it, the Senate can override the veto. This is the story that should be covered in reporting of this horrible shutdown of our Government.
The Republicans share every bit of the responsibility, as well as Trump, for those 800,000 suffering Government employees
13
Bret -- two entirely different situations don't you think? We aren't trying to defend our southern border from an invading army. In that case, a 12th century wall wouldn't make much sense. Perhaps you should read Dan Crenshaw's article in the WSJ today which makes an intelligent case for building a wall where it is practical.
It is true that if you are facing an enemy on your border, tanks, artillery, etc. and an early warning system might be a better use of your $$$. But most of the people crossing the southern border aren't going to bring the tools to go through under or over a wall. So if you build a wall in places where you can (lots of miles on our southern border) -- then you can better allocate resources to areas where a wall is less practical. Most will have to go around places where there is a wall.
As far as your lost paragraph, most coming across our southern border are coming to find a better life. But, unless you can make the case that everyone in the world who wants a better life should be admitted here (that's unmanageable) then we have to be able to control how many we all to legally immigrate over time. And just because those in Latin America have easier access to our border than say than those in Africa doesn't mean they should have some sort of advantage, does it?
6
@Ralphie -- You say "But most of the people crossing the southern border aren't going to bring the tools to go through under or over a wall. "
You seem to think that Mexicans are stupid and tool-less.
A large fraction of the drugs and most of the dangerous criminals who do come from Mexico come through tunnels dug under our border, right now.
And the idea that Mexicans don't know how to use an extensible ladder, or a shovel, or an oxy-acetylene torch or carbide saw is absurd. (What you are making perfectly clear is that you don't.)
Further any of these wall designs can have a hole big enough to crawl through blown very quickly with a kilo of explosive, if you know what you are doing ... and trust me, a LOT of Mexicans do.
The wall is, as the column expresses, a 12th century intervention. Others means are far more effective. They include identification checks by employers. Sensors. Increased judges and professional vetting which separates genuine asylum seekers from pretenders. We need to practice an humane immigration policy. We also need a measured, controlled immigration program which recognizes the value of community. Immigrants need time to assimilate. Neighborhoods need time to integrate immigrants into their communities. Research shows that the numbers of immigrants who can be integrated into communities at healthy levels is 10-15%. Ignoring the need for such a balance is less than responsible.
3
Some of what Stephens proposes makes sense for certain sections of the U.S.-Mexico border, and several commenters propose other reasonable solutions. But I've yet to see much mention of the fact that vast areas of the border region are forbidding due to the topography there. Many portions of the U.S.-Mexico border traverse steep canyons and sheer cliffs that are essentially inaccessible via conventional means. That in itself is a deterrent for those who seek to enter the U.S. undetected, but it's also a huge hurdle for the contractors who would be tasked with building any kind of barrier. Has this fact entered the thoughts of our president or his advisors? It appears not.
5
"If we really wanted to secure the border, our first priority should be to make it easier for them to arrive through the front door rather than sneak in through the back."
The simple truth is this makes total sense but is anathema to Republican dogma as it would include "those people". Any Republican congressperson or senator with even a mild business background knows this to be true but is either hemmed in by, or blinded by, decades of Republican political fear mongering regarding immigrants.
8
Near the end of the Reagan Administration, the one certain way of curbing undocumented workers was adopted, but never enforced: Escalating penalties (including jail time for repeat offenses) for those who employ them.
Even Trump, in some dim recess of his malignant brain, must realize that his claims about terrorists and drug smugglers at the border is extreme hyperbole. People enter because they want good paying jobs or their fear for their lives in Central America.
Penalizing CEOs who hire the undocumented solves the former. As for asylum seekers, there are far more humane ways to sort out those fleeing with their families from crime and terror in their homelands.
This is all about Trump's ego, and most Republicans know it, but are too afraid of being primaried to do what is morally right.
6
@Nelle "in some dim recess of his malignant brain." Does this meet the test of civility of the NYT?
1
@h dierkes -- Trump is undeniably malignant. His crudity and contempt exceed all bounds of decency. Are you complaining about "dim recess?"
1
Immigrants represent 5% of the work force in this country, largely in jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. We have a 3.5% roughly unemployment rate. Republicans are always trying to simplify topics and call it common sense. Do the math here. If we lose our immigrants, our economy is going to take a noise dive.
6
Immigration policy, privacy and foreign policy are three dimensions of our national interest. The immigrants coming from Central America are fleeing governments that are unable to provide a safe place for their people to live and work. These people are fleeing for their safety. Failing governments should be addressed through diplomacy, foreign aid and working through regional alliances.
As is often pointed out, the greater immigration problems are visa overstays. This problem requires holding employers accountable for employing workers who have overstayed visas or who have visas that do not authorize employment in the US. We cannot hold employers accountable unless we have a reliable method of identifying citizens and immigrants authorized to work in the US. Privacy considerations make any reliable ID system repugnant to many, if not most Americans.
Any sensible immigration system would not just admit people who want to come. I would exclude people too. We don't want criminals or thugs. We may want to admit "guest workers" or we may not. Those who live here, work and contribute to our country ought to have a well defined pathway to citizenship.
What we need is a few adults in Congress and one adult in the oval office when we establish our policies and priorities.
3
The main idea that this proposal offers is that this type of fence is "by no means an imposing one". And that is apparently in reference to Pelosi's rebuttal statement to Trump's speech where she said that a "wall is immoral", which is also why Trump recently revised his "wall" to a "fence" made of steel slats.
However the very fact that the issue has been reduced to what a wall says illustrates what the current fight is actually about. And that is its not about money.
But the fact is that the border is already protected by huge imposing (and immoral) walls wherever there are populated areas on both sides of the border to prevent people from walking over on their own. So anywhere there are people in Mexico when they see the US border they see huge imposing walls and this is the 'face' the US presents to them.
This left open only desolate areas in the desert where the only way to cross over and not die is through smugglers who can arrange for transportation on the US side. And clearly nobody would argue that its moral to block the border in populated areas but to leave it open in the desert where crossing without paying thousands to smugglers is a death sentence.
It is pretty clear to all that the reason some Democrats are insisting that the path to illegal immigration must remain open at all costs is so that the children of those immigrants will grow up and vote for the party who is pro illegal immigration.
6
Is it too late to have a nonpartisan, or bipartisan, commission to study the FACTS and make non-political recommendations? Has this been done? I suspect that the truths found would involve some kind of barrier somewhere, lots of new technology, more personnel, and a wholesale revamping/improvement of the processing of asylum seekers in an efficient and humane manner. Would anyone buy into the results of such a plan? I suspect not.
3
This article points out why a wall of some sort is needed. We don't have cooperation from the Mexican authorities to nearly the extent that Jordan and Egypt apparently cooperate with Israel. We don't have the US Army manning pillboxes on the border because Mexico is not a state controlled by an enemy. Do we need Trump's specific vision of a wall? I don't think so, and if it were up to me, the immigration and customs people along with some Israeli advisors would be determining the technology - smart fence where appropriate, wall where needed, both backed up by human and drone interdiction teams. But I don't see the Democrats willing to espouse this route in order to obtain a compromise that will work, even though they have taken a more security oriented stance in the recent past. I used to vote Democrat, don't any more, and put this issue squarely on the Democrats, not on Trump.
10
@Paul Wow, it's astonishing to me that someone can look at this situation and blame the Democrats. They have been fully willing to discuss enhanced border security. The intransigence is on Trump. He promised his base an actual wall and that's all he's interested in talking about.
This is not the Democrat's issue. The current statistics don't support the scare tactics. If this was so all-fired important, why couldn't he get his wall when he had a fully Republican congress? If this is what made you switch to Trump from voting Democrat, I'm sorry, but I question your judgement.
7
@Paul I bet that the cooperation with neighboring countries didn't happen overnight and was part of a long-term strategy that has paid off. Perhaps if Trump didn't insist many times over that Mexico would pay for the wall, blow up NAFTA and threaten tariffs every 5 minutes, better cooperation would be achieved. All signs I see point to the fact that Mexico does want to work to solve this problem as it affects them since many of the refugees are traveling through Mexico and are not from Mexico. And yes, agree with Cayce that the Dems are very willing to discuss border security - they just are not willing to spend money on ineffectual methods that won't solve immigration problems.
4
@Paul
Paul, if you listen to what most Democrats and sensible Republicans think about boarder security, not the smoke Trump is trying to blow in everybody's face, you just might have a different prospective on this and other issues. Sadly, the "President" has a proven record of lying to us...
Facts and critical thinking are needed to help solve our nations problems not the "stuff" coming out of Trumps mouth.
1
One of many unfortunate consequences of the American exceptionalism idea, and perhaps of being the world’s major power at any given time, is an unwillingness to look abroad for solutions. This permeates many areas of the public sector, most glaringly healthcare, in addition to border security.
8
Compare the ginormous environmental and financial costs of a physical barrier with the limited incremental effect on transgressions.
In other words: benefits - 0.7 units; harms - 19.3 units.
13
What is the problem we are trying to solve? If it's drugs, let's see a way to stem the tide of drugs. If it's human trafficking, let's focus on that. If it's terrorists, so be it. This is a wall for the sake of a wall, with no connection to the threat it purportedly addresses. We all know that border insecurity is not the root of drugs, human trafficking or terrorism. Facing down these and other scourges will take massive investments in technology, renewed international cooperation, and a comprehensive review of our laws and their enforcement. In the meantime, our country NEEDS more immigrants, not fewer. And can we please renew our commitment to honoring our foundation as a welcoming country for refugees??
26
@JS
"What is the problem we are trying to solve?"
People breaking the law by crossing our border without permission.
"In the meantime, our country NEEDS more immigrants, not fewer."
Our country NEEDS real wage growth. Do you think the stagnation of wages over the last 15-20 years might have something to do with illegal immigration?
1
We have this kind of conversation in my kitchen! We can't understand why 21st century technology, which governs the rest of our lives, can be intelligently applied to the border. The next so-called meeting between the Republicans and Democrats should simply change the language and say look, folks, we can do this, let Trump save face by announcing a joint smart solution, end the shutdown, put people back to work, instead of creating a fake crisis and causing so much suffering.
Hard to believe that even Trump supporters really think not making mortgage payments, not being able to feed the family, etc. is a good thing. Shutting down essential services that help all of us is a really bad idea, from food inspection to plane safety, and on and on.
Trump and the Congress need to engage their tiny brains and do the right thing!
10
Even if Trump does falsely declare an emergency, another outrageous abuse of power, it will be years before shovels hit the dirt. The lawsuits are already written, just waiting for the word from Trump so they can be filed. If Trump built the wall himself with gold-plated bricks, I still would not support it. It's a horribly expensive and ineffective solution that will not solve the problem of illegal immigration. I'm ok with the idea of smart fencing as long as other 21st century technology can also be utilized and other methods incorporated. A wall does absolutely nothing about folks coming here legally and then overstaying their visas. I think a way would need to he found where we don't take Americans' property away via eminent domain. Those lawsuits have also already been written. This issue is only a "crisis" because Trump needs to build a wall to fulfill a promise he made to his supporters that he should never had made in the first place. Southern border apprehensions are at the lowest level since the mid-70s. Also, for two years Republicans didn't give Trump money. Why is it an emergency now? We need modern-day solutions and Trump wants a medieval wall, a monument to stupidity.
16
Speaker Pelosi should send the January 2018 immigration bill to the Senate again word-for-word. Let's challenge the GOP senate to pass it and the president to sign it by giving them the vanity "wall". While I think that the wall is huge waste of money but protecting the Dreamers is much more important. As a Democrat, I can live with that and save 800,000 federal employees from the hardships of a long Trump shut-down. Let them build as Mr. Stephens suggests if they are wise or build a big, thick, and short wall (because $5B is far from enough to cover the whole border) if they are stupid.
1
The "wall", like all Trump marketing initiatives, is really about something else, and never what it seems. It is first of all, an attack against labor and government institutions. How long will a shut down need to be before everything is outsourced, like food inspections and air traffic control? The Trump Administration shows unbelievable disrespect for government workers. So does Mitch McConnell and the rest of the Republican gang. This shutdown is also about Presidential power. Does Trump have the power to declare an emergency over a manufactured problem? If he does, this would signal a real change in the relationship between the branches of government that should at the very least, worry the Supreme Court. Israel is great at border security and a friend of the US. It would be very easy to apply their methods if security was a real problem. But it is not, it is about something else. If only the clueless media would get this!
10
How is the media clueless and not getting this? I ask because everything I've heard from the media is exactly what you just said: that security is not a real problem, and that it's about something else.
Telling that Stephens suggests that the border between the US and Mexico would benefit from a barricade suited to the actual conflict between Israel and its avowed enemies. His putative anti-Trumpism doesn't prevent reflexive advocacy of nativist, xenophobic and militaristic solutions that we don't need. It's not just Trump. It's the entire conservative movement.
8
Most of the problems politicians face now have no easy satisfactory solutions. The trouble with a leader like President Trump and his frustrated supporters is they pretend that there are, without facing hard facts, which is why they muddle together facts and fantasies with the help of petulance and exaltation. If Trump got calm enough to see the merit of smart fences for a compromise, he would throw another tantrum soon by finding they were not as beautiful as concrete ones.
2
This is a ridiculous analogy. The Israeli border fence is also enforced with rules of engagement that allow the IDF to use force against people who attempt to breach the border. The purpose of a nonporous US-Mexico border is to deter specious claims for asylum and broad scale migration. Our southern border is enforced by a police power heavily restrained by due process protections, not military-style rules of engagement.
6
@Derek Yup. I too think it's nuts.
We have an absence of facts.We should not approve a plan to solve a problem, real or perceived, until we fully understand the issue.
Where and how do most illegal immigrants and smuggled drugs enter the country?
How many visitors with student or tourist visas overstay and what system do we have to track them?
How do illegal immigrants get the fake documents that enable them to work, or who is hiring them without a semblance of documentation?
What other nations have organized crime groups in the US?
These questions are not even being asked.
NOOOOOO, lets just build a huge expensive wall, and then bury our heads in the sand beside it.
6
How did we get to the point where it’s OK to use fear and xenophobia for political gain? Reasonable people know that this is a non-urgent and entirely manageable problem. We have deported millions of people, many of whom probably should not have been deported. Meanwhile we are poisoning our relations with the countries that are geographically closest to us and are culturally close as well. These countries and these people are our neighbors. They are not going away. Why does anybody think it’s OK to treat them so disgracefully and to broadcast these messages of racism and hatred?
10
@Bob
How did we get to this point? We forgot that voting is important and didn’t think HClinton would lose, even though we might be wild about her. We thought DTrump was a joke and two years later we find our country being whipsawed by this man who is not of a temperament to be a leader of a country. We betrayed our country and that’s how we got to this point.
7
In a sane world, Democrats would agree to sane and sensible solutions based on what works. But that’s not the debate, and that’s not the choice they’ve been handed.
They simply cannot agree to trump’s wall, because his wall has been prefaced and predicated by a hateful ideology. It’s not that the wall/slats are a bad idea, which they are, but that any wall/slats which come out of this will have been built by and will tacitly condone the toxic rhetoric that demonizes Latin Americans who would be Americans. That’s simply unamerican.
5
Thank you, Mr. Stephens, for this insightful and in-depth analysis. What has struck me most is why Trump has not look to Israel for examples of effective border security. And ironically what I just read in this piece is not too much different from our new Democratic House's first bill passed upon the day it was sworn in, i.e., more money to surveillance, man-power, and reinforcement of existing barriers. Only God knows why Mitch McConnell refuses to even bring it up for a vote. Although, who really knows what drives this man whose trajectory is toward increasingly unethical and amoral behavior.
To think...we are not fighting terrorists, far from it. The "perpetrators in crime" are victims of abuse, violence, oppression, suppression. What ever happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses"? Indeed, it is lost in profound bigotry and nativism against the very diversity which made our nation great. One final thought..as I watch Mr. Trump grow more delusional, retreat more into his narcissism, and become more at the mercy of an unhinged mind and warped soul (if he has one), I am convinced that his Great Wall has absolutely nothing to do with protecting my and your country. It has everything to do with building a monument to himself, for his self-glorification. And I ask myself, When will his supporters and their congressional representatives awaken to that fact?
8
I feel that my well-being is much more threatened by the proliferation of guns in this country than by illegal immigrants. Trump went on and on about those who had family members killed by illegal immigrants - what about the families of victims of Sandy Hook, Parkland, etc.?
Why are we wasting so much time worrying about a wall and illegal immigrants when the country faces countless bigger problems? Because we are being ruled by a man who operates like a three year old. I actually don't have that big of a problem with the wall. But as with dealing with a three year old, if you give in once, they will expect you to continue giving in to their ridiculous requests, and we can't do that.
9
Funny...prior to December 2018, the funding of the wall was not a critical issue requiring a government shutdown.
If it was such a national emergency, why didn't the Republican controlled house and senate send such legislation to the President? Why didn't Trump shut down the government then?
Why wait until the Republicans lost control of the House and when the republican political leverage had been significantly curtailed?
And by the way, if securing the nation was so important, why hasn't the president proposed a wall as well as other measures to reinforce security at all ports of entries as part of a comprehensive infrastructure enhancement plan that would improve facilities and detection at our nation's decaying airports, seaports and roadways?
After all, a large portion drugs as well as illegal immigration are coming from various ports of entries (outside the southern border) .
This seems to be more of a fight to break the will of the Democrats rather an actually erecting a wall or improving national security.
15
Bret, the democratic party did NOT ask for steel instead of concrete. Just because Trump said that does not make it true. Trump asked for reform shortly after his inauguration and his esteemed Congress did nothing. His Republican majority House and Senate did absolutely nothing and now we have the pig of a man holding our nation hostage because he failed on his promise for Mexico to pay for a wall and he wants to save face.
If you want a smart fence, then you pay for it out of your pocket and while you are at it, please pay off some of the 1.5 or 1.7 trillion dollar debt that Trump has run up since he took office.
9
Blame whomever you want, but it's might silly to shut down the government over $5.7 billion in a $4410 billion federal budget. It's less than a rounding error. The shutdown is not a debate over optimal U.S. border security.
2
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbours."
1
Or, we could take down all those ridiculous looking fences let everyone come to our country to shop, vacation, visit friends and family spend lots of money and then go home.
It is the going home part that is the only potential problem if instead they go to work for some criminal employer who is willing to break the law to get cheap labor. But, then who is the real crook, the person who takes the job or the person who offers it?
1
An "Israeli-style barrier" seems quite reasonable - to reasonable human beings. But Trump doesn't want a reasonable solution. He wants a monument to himself. He's looking for a legacy that will endure for the ages, long after he is gone. It doesn't matter if it's worthless, if it's pointless, or if it's useless, just so long as it's big and it's associated with his "brand," forever and always. Trump is today's Ozymandias.
6
This fight is not about border security, drug trafficking or human suffering all of which are legitimate issues towards which our government must always be vigilant. Trump is itching to remove the checks and balances that we have rightly held sacred for 250 years and remake our democratic republic into a dictatorship. On multiple occasions he has tried overtly to bend each branch of autonomous government to his will. our judiciary, legislature, as well as the supposedly automomous elements of his own executive branch to his personal will.
2
Nice interesting article but not sure what it has to do with the current shutdown which is only about satisfying the bloodlust of an angry base which is too clueless to remember that the real appeal of the wall was to humiliate Mexico by making it pay for something that it does not want.
5
A smart fence can't detect tunneling? The seismograph was invented by the Chinese to detect tunneling. The right sensor and a $40 Raspberry Pi could do it. It could also probably detect human motion in the WiFi band.
1
@Rhys -- while its not quite as trivial as you suggest, yes geophones can detect tunneling ... if there is not a lot of background noise and the tunneling is through rock and/or being done quickly.
Geophones have a very hard time detecting tunneling in urban environments (lots of road noise and construction noise gets down into the ground), and have a particularly difficult time detecting tunnels dug slowly, by hand, through compacted soil or sand.
He wants the steel slats in order for someone to get a big US contract after US steel just raised their prices 25% (aka Trump tariffs for national security)
It’s always all about money to be made and who gets it.
5
Not a bad article, Bret, but you pull you punch: "why can't Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing?". The Democrats have no resistance at all to such an agreement. In fact they support it, and have funded it with 1.3 billion dollars. The problem is purely from the Republican side, particularly Trump. He insists on a wasteful, less effective, old school wall, and the Republican congress supports him in this folly, to keep from embarrassing him.
8
Irrelevant comparisons to what the Israelis do trivialize the significant differences between our countries' challenges; most importantly, as stated, Mexico is neither Hezbollah nor Hamas.
Further, Mexicans, Salvadorans, Hondurans, and Guatemalans arrive at our southern border for somewhat different reasons than those crossing illegally into Israel. Relatively few Mexican citizens are agitating for the return of Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and a good piece of California real estate to Mexico. Given that European settlement of North America displaced and decimated indigenous peoples, there is nothing in the history of colonial North America analogous to what Palestinians and other citizens of the Middle East call the right of return. Consequently, for better or worse, Israel survives and plans to survive as far as we can see in the future, as an armed and fortified state, bristling with defenses. We hopefully, perhaps naively, expect something more noble from our leaders.
This is more the work of a high school history project on fanciful what-ifs.
Disappointing, because Mr. Stephens usually does at least some perfunctory homework.
3
There is a positive side in everything. As long as Trump spends all his time with constructing a useless wall, he has no time to do real harmful things, like a pressing the nuclear bottom. Make him the chief of a great American wall construction.
Israel has among the most secure border defenses in the world. There is virtually zero illegal immigration across their extremely well-protected borders. It seems completely backwards to use them as an example for why the US should not have reasonably secure border walls. What is the exact point of this article? It makes no sense once one steps back from the minutiae. Israel has extremely secure border walls/fences whereas the US has very weak border barriers with thousands of illegal immigrants easily crossing each week. What is the main message that we should take from the Israeli example? Trump is correct and wants the Israeli type secure-borders solution?
1
Nasty fences like this are not built to further good relations between citizens of one country and those of the other on the other side of the fence.
1
I live in Texas have my entire life. Boarder security is needed but NOT a wall. We trade with Mexico, and most who come here are very FAMILY centered.
Many, other ways to improve our borders.
Has anyone found out just how the Killer in California, of the police officer got into the country. I would be curious to know if it was through an over stayed visa or not?
1
As usual Stephens misses the point perhaps because he has so long been complicit in the pathology that is the Republican Party. None of this conversation about borders or security has to do with any real threats. It’s about ginning up fear, anger, and racism that Republicans use as their stock in trade with white Americans, all the while doing nothing more than lining the pockets of their donor class. Trump’s overt, shameless racism isn’t a liability to Republicans, it’s the real sentiment of the base. Who are we kidding? Until Stephens gets honest about the real problem—-Republican pathology—-the rest is just more cover for his own history of complicity.
4
It's not the wall that is a deterrent, it is the machine guns and airstrikes. Is that what we want to do? Are the people that cross our southern border our existential enemies, some wearing bombs? Shall we have required military service of all young adults so we can "secure" our southern border?
Please, let's not help Trump convince us of any of the above is how we must be, what we must do, who we've become.
3
the problem with this analogy is the U.S. will not call in the air strikes or other lethal means employed by the Israelis that make their fence/wall an effective deterrent.
2
@Catholic and Conservative Is this what the Catholic Church teaches, bombing women and children and men who seek a better life?
1
This is brilliant analysis. I also think Democrats should bend over backwards to congratulate the president on his concern for border security, and explain to the American people why an "Israeli-style" border will work much better to keep us all safer from genuine threats. Use facts to convince people who are frightened that they can be protected in effective ways using 21st century technology. Then we can get on with the business of governing this country and keeping its services open. The American people are smart, and will listen to reason. The Democrats should bank on that to garner public support for intelligent border security. Let's stay away from inflammatory rhetoric and solve this. We all want our borders secure. It is the methods of keeping them secure that we differ on.
2
With Trump in charge, it's just one crisis after the other. He seems to thrive on it. It appears to be some sort of contrived ruse to detract attention away from his general incompetence. We obviously will never enjoy anything approaching national calm and normality as long as he is in charge.
4
"If we really wanted to secure the border, our first priority should be to make it easier for them to arrive through the front door rather than sneak in through the back."
Excellent point, Mr. Stephens! But what if we also looked into our own actions in contributing to the plight from which they are escaping? I mean, things must be pretty bad back home if thousands of people are feel compelled to walk 2,000 miles with children in tow.
5
Trump would do well to heed this article. After all, he does not even have popular support for his 'wall'. How do we know?
1. Despite Trump's pre-election plugging of the wall
he lost the popular vote to Hilary Clinton and 2. despite Trump's continued plugging of the wall, the Democrats swept to victory during the mid-term elections.
Am I missing something?
11
It would be a horrible sin to emulate a cruel apartheid regime .
Excellent and informative column today. I particularly liked, and agree with, the last paragraph.
4
Does Mr. Stephens not realize the difference between the border situation in Israel and in Texas? A wall along the entire Souther border is not only unnecessary, but, in some cases, harmful.
The Israelis do not have to worry about eminenet domain issues that would require confiscating, and reimbursing, land from property owners on the border. Ask former Governor (and now Energy Secretary) Rick Perry how easy that is.
A wall would be built on the US side of the border, effectively ceding land south of the wall, but still on US soil, to Mexico. For example, the Dept. of Homeland Security has plans for new wall in Hidalgo County, TX - in some places a mile or more from the border.
There are environmental costs to the US border wall, such as the disruption of grazing and roaming areas for wildlife.
13
@DBman A smart fence wouldn't require a mile. We have non-smart fencing on most of the southern boarder now. I agree with you about the environmental costs. How about a smart invisible fence?
3
"So how does Israel maintain border security? Two ways: close cooperation with neighbors where it’s possible and the use of modern technology and effective deterrence where it’s not."
I guess you didn't go to the border with Lebanon.
Plenty of wall there.
So make that three ways.
5
@Jeff Guinn But Mexico and Lebanon are really not analogous. The current immigrant "crisis" in the US of families seeking asylum in the US is not the same as the threat of armed terrorist attacks that Israel faces from Lebanon. It is dishonest to imply otherwise.
3
@Glenn
My comment was primarily pointed at the factual basis of his claim.
But while you bring it up, listen to this NYT interview published just today:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/podcasts/the-daily/mark-napier-sheriff-border-wall.html?action=click&module=Briefings&pgtype=Homepage
Sounds like Trump is much more in touch with truth on the ground than Pelosi, Schumer, and the NYT Op Ed page.
Whatever...How about starting a new fund now, with public donations, to tear down that wall, when and if it is built.
The Dems should not give in on this.
They need to do a better job showing over and over
Trump's lies, and offer more for border security to counter
Trump's demands.
And stress the facts, that a compromise had already been
reached between the House and Senate on the legislation
which Trump ignored and then shut down the gov. saying all along that it was his decision and he would take claim to it.
And then blaming Dems over and over.
10
Instead of spending billions on a wall, the US should spend a serious amount of money on programs for security and economic development in Central America. Eliminate the problem at the core. The failures in the Central American states are the source of the problem.
26
@DH What ails Central America is not the United States.
The Gang of 8 in 2013, including equal numbers of Republicans and Democrats, had a great balanced policy that was considerate of all interests and would likely receive a majority of American's support today.
2
@Phil R
If politicians actually solve a problem then they can no longer raise campaign contributions on that issue. That is why our political problems never get solved anymore.
7
The debate on "The Wall" has become a parody of itself. On the Trump side, it is largely fact free. On the Dem side, it's contradictory - they have supported past wall projects.
I seems to me that a panel of scientists and security experts ought to make a proposal here. Politicians and their soap boxes contribute nothing but uninformed hot air.
9
@Rodger Parsons
No they supported Fences not Walls, and certianly like the 25 or 30 foot wall Trump has proposed.
I’m glad Bret tacked on that explanation at the end, because for a while there I though he was implying that women and children fleeing violence in Central America were actually enemies of the US who required a military response like sending US troops to the southern border. That, of course, would be deplorable, right?
15
Interesting alternative but there are significant difference. The Israelis would respond to any incursions with military ground troops and an aerial assault. We're not dealing with the same level of threat. I doubt we would send a fully armed Huey Gun ship to respond.
6
@George
Yet we sent 5000 armed soldiers to face the "caravan" of tired hungry refugees, who actually were seeking apprehension, since as asylum seekers only by being captured could the asylum process begin
1
You provide a practical suggestion, well considered, to a problem which has only a passing relation to actual border security and illegal immigration. The problem is political. The problem is the president. The president is our national emergency.
If he believes that he has every right to declare a national emergency to get his way over the building of The Great Wall of Trump, what do you think the man will do when the walls of his mythical kingdom begin truly tumbling down?
14
Mr. Stephens, always potent and succinct, and sometimes wise.
"If we really wanted to secure the border, our first priority should be to make it easier for them to arrive through the front door rather than sneak in through the back."
20
@Steve :O The best sentence in the entire op-ed.
Agreed.
The point is that DJT is desperately trying to fulfill a frivolous campaign promise in order to satisfy his supporters and two conservative talking heads. It’s not an emergency or crisis. It’s a vanity project. Border security, which the Dems have advocated but Mr Stephens seems to question, is not the same thing as a hastily built wall (and one can only imagine how long it will take to actually start such a project). The issue is a comprehensive immigration examination. The goal should be sorting out overstaying visas and abusing the visa system in general. Diverting disaster relief funds is absurd and hopefully illegal.
31
Mr. Stephens, your last paragraph gives the impression that democrats are not interested in border security and have not made any offers. The exact opposite is reality.
Democrats have made multiple offers to enhance border security at all points (air, land, sea) using exactly the methods you mention; some barriers, sensors, cameras, drones, biometrics, personnel, beefed up inspections, etc. Let us not mince words. The GOP is in fact the only group that is not interested in securing the border. This idea of a concrete wall is nothing new. This has been floated for more than a decade and has become the GOP's white whale.
48
"Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing in places where it’s missing...?" Because conservative Republicans can never get enough. Every time an immigration reform bill gets close the far right wing sabotages it because they refuse to compromise.
42
@Yogesh
I agree 100%. I don't think the border fence is about security at all, but rather a piece of political theater. Smart fencing might control the border better, but it won't fulfill the theatrical Prime Directive.
23
@Yogesh
Just a few months ago, the president offered a path to citizenship for millions of young beneficiaries of the DACA program, and many more who were DACA eligible, in exchange for an end to an immigration policy that benefits those who have large, extended families with some members already in the US. This was roundly rejected by the Democrats, with the usual explanation that the president was a racist, and that the term "chain immigration" was offensive to African-Americans.
1
@Yogesh. Democrats can’t close the deal because anything they propose includes amnesty for illegal aliens, which most Americans oppose.
1
I agree with this article entirely. That being said spending 5.8Billion for Fencing may be steep. My fear is Trump will get the money and somehow pocket the bulk of it. He appears to be a President of Boundless Corruption.
23
@Michael Cohen that $5.8 billion is just the down payment. That was expected to build just over 200 miles of a concrete wall. Now the POTUS says he wants steel slats, which would be even more expensive (trump has said so.). The total cost of the wall will likely be closer to $50 billion, and then there will be enormous maintenance costs. AND, we would still need all the other stuff anyway — senors, cameras, lights, drones, roads (all of which need to be maintained) and personnel. If we just put up a wall, people will still figure out ways to get over or under or through it, so we need to be able to detect breaches and send border patrol there to intercept them.
1
Unfortunately, Mr. Stephens relies on evidence for his argument on the most effective way to achieve border security. Mr. Trump doesn’t use evidence, only fear, which has always been the scallywags have deceived their marks.
18
You had a good argument until the last paragraph. You are absolutely right about people wanting to come to the United States to better their lives. I guess the real question is are there bad people coming in also? If we lived next to a country where there is mass murders, people going missing and families being eradicated just because of one siblings gang/drug affliation, would you welcome that person into your neighborhood. Would you be okay if this kind of violence was on your street? These men and women dated your kids?
I agree there are so many wonderful people that have come here illegally. I have worked with them, worshipped with them, and helped them when I could. They are good people coming from a bad place. But until we change the law, it is still illegal to sneak in to our country. We should not condemn a president for trying to uphold our laws that has been in place for as long as we have all been alive.
9
@Jenny
“I guess the real question is are there bad people coming in also?”
You then refer to “mass murders, people going missing and families being eradicated”. Who do you think are trying to get in, the people who commit such violence or the ones fleeing it?
Trump is not trying to uphold our laws here, just going through the motions with an ill-considered campaign trope. The whole point of Mr. Stephens commentary — which you completely ignore — is that debate should be focused on serious alternatives which might actually be effective. Virtually no one actually involved in border enforcement takes what Trump is proposing seriously.
37
@Jenny
If the person wishing entry was the victim of the horrors you mention I would be willing to welcome them.
"We should not condemn a president for trying to uphold our laws that has been in place for as long as we have all been alive. "
First the laws have gradually become more and more restrictive. During WW2 and after we welcomed Mexicans who came to the US for a limited time to work primarily in agriculture, then would return to Mexico (we also abused them, but that's another story)
In 1986, as part of an omnibus Immigration bill an Amnesty was signed into law by....Ronald Reagan. I assisted a neighbor's housekeeper get a green card and millions came iout of the shadows.
In the 1930s Jews fleeing from Europe were prevented from asylum by an uncaring State Department with many in that Sept being anti-Semitic. Would you have refused them entry too?
ANd while illegal immigration is indeed a crime (roughly the misdemeanor of trespass in effect, Trump's method of upholding the law has often been barbaric, and that Jenny I can and do condemn!
PS: It would be nice if the President would obey all the laws he swore to uphold.
1
@Jenny
Correction: Mexico is the country living next door to a land of mass murders (Orlando, Las Vegas, Parkland, Sutherland Springs, Pittsburgh- to name just a few); hate crimes; and government sponsored family separations. By rights Mexico should be building a wall to keep us out. The whole “immigration brings crime - be very, very afraid!” trope is just propaganda from a forgetful, spiteful, racist old man. DJT doesn’t give two cents for our laws. He seems intent on breaking as many of them as possible. The wall is just his attempt to win a popularity contest; and he is callously inflicting pain, hardship, and suffering on millions of Americans in order to force his whims on the country. He is to be reviled, and his wall to be utterly rejected.
2
Great article! Thanks! I agree completely.
You’ve got a knack for this.
Even if your primary passions lie on the ultra-partisan side, for the greater good, I hope that you continue to contribute to more mainstream publications.
Maybe you can write some of the stuff that was a bit too intense for folks like me (I’m no bleeding heart & liked the Journal well enough, at least until they went all Trump-crazy, but you truly seemed to despise many people that think you’re pretty cool now that we’ve gotten to know you a little better) under a pseudonym.
“ If we really wanted to secure the border, our first priority should be to make it easier for them to arrive through the front door rather than sneak in through the back”.
These people are looking for opportunity and we have the need and the opportunity. This situation does not have to be adversarial.
12
Brett is engaging in a conversation about ways to fix the border. Pelosi has offered to do that too.
But Trump wants $5.7 billion first. Then he’ll discuss things.
And to up the ante, so to speak, Trump will not let 800,000 people get paid until he has the $5.7 billion.
And if that doesn’t work, he’ll declare a National Emergency allowing him, among other things, to freeze bank accounts, impose martial law, lock up Hillary etc etc Who knows how far he’ll go??
I don’t think a suggestion like Brett’s about a newer better cheaper wall will inspire Trump to change his approach. He’s not a tech junkie nor even a listener.
36
Consider - whatever Trump, as Pres, as person, as a code for what is being enabled to begin, continue and not to change as realities and their implications and consequences change is not the critical issue.Or process. Each of US, and our complacency or complicity, of whatever types, levels qualities IS! Each of US can choose to contribute to making a critically needed difference which makes a difference. Each day.
Israel sets the standard because the goal, and result, is no one gets in. We’re going to get there eventually so we should envision that endpoint as the goal. The Wall is a temporary and semi-effective stopgap.
7
So you’re saying that the goal of the temporary, stopgap measure that will cost BILLIONS TO CREATE & MAINTAIN is NOT to keep folks out?
What is its purpose, then? I thought it was supposed to keep us from the bloodshed & carnage associated with teeming masses of terrorists, murders. gang members, rapists, drug dealers, human traffickers, etc.
I know that it’s all a political joke, but I thought that those in favor of wasting the money of middle class taxpayers had at least decided to stick to their bogus story to justify this behemoth.
Fortunately, you seem to have let the cat out of the bag.
Thank God one of the Wall supporters has finally admitted that, besides serving Trump’s political ambitions, his Wall will serve only as an obstacle course for migrants to learn how to scale fences. Or a way for them to test their tools on the “steel slats”’ that seemingly can’t stop anyone with a will and a handsaw.
You’ve got to be kidding.
Why not just invest the money in smart fences to start with?
Because you’ve got to keep your Daddy in power NOW & developing better technology would take time.
I get it. Thanks.
You wrote: "If we really wanted to secure the border, our first priority should be to make it easier for them to arrive through the front door rather than sneak in through the back"
Yes, and the US ought to help the governments of the countries the migrants hail from, rather than destabilizing democratic Latin American institutions in service of US corporate profits, as has happened so often in the past. Israel's fencing is a last-ditch solution for an ugly problem that Israel has helped to create for itself. More intelligently-directed aid to strengthen critical non-military institutions like the judiciary could help to improve conditions in the countries that are generating migrants, and prevent our immigration problem from getting uglier.
22
“and the US ought to...” WHO is US? A divided country with unaccountable policy makers enabled by a diverse population of
me’s and you’s- a different kind of US- who are actively complacent, or choise to BE come complicit in our daily, toxic, violating WE-THEY culture? Perhaps each of US “ought to...” as best as each of US can given who and what WE are. Limited by who and what we are not. Will never be. May yet evolve into. Each day a gift of the opportunity to “fail better.”
@G Khn
America's National Security Doctrine, provided cover for rapist corporate interests in LATAM during the past century or so, and supported brutal dictatorships, when not invading these countries to prop them up. Trump's governing by fits. starts, whim, tantrum and blackmail. The Ship of State is listing dangerously and risks capsizing with this pathological liar, autocrat-wanna-be, and his GOP crew of power hungry grifters, not to mention his Propaganda Machine, FOX News!
@G Khn And handing out billions of US taxpayer dollars to help these corrupt Latin American countries improve themselves? And "Israel's fencing is a last-ditch solution for an ugly problem that Israel has helped to create for itself." How has Israel created the problem for itself? When surrounded by arabs intent on destroying your country...open borders just don't work. Hasn't happened yet after years of handouts. And a question to Bret Stephens...how many millions do you expect the US to take in? Another 5, 10, 25?
As with earthworks on a battlefield, a wall is intended to slow down or divert an encroacher, not stop him. Build formidable barriers in urban areas, forcing would-be trespassers to go deep out into the desert, where perhaps only a fence is necessary. Fewer will venture out there, and those who do will be easily apprehended.
7
@NorthernVirginia. Try learning what the 2,000 mile long US-Mexico border area actually looks like before embarassimg yourself again. Urban areas? Seriously?
The Dems have offered time and again to discuss how to fix the border, and a smart fence is within their scope. However, Trump doesn’t want to discuss anything until he has $5.7 billion bucks in his hand.
Maybe, if Trump was so bright that his expertise would come cheap at $5.7 billion, then things would work out.
But, nah, that’s too big a stretch.
9
@John Brews ..✅✅
I'm a Democrat, so it pains me to say this...the Dems have offered nothing but plans on how to legalize the "Dreamers". It seems to be the only thing they care about these days. Probably why we find ourselves in the minority.
1
No country -- not even the other "advanced" countries -- has legal procedures as extravagant, time-consuming and expensive as America's, many of which judges have imposed in the name of supposed Constitutional "due process", and very few countries have handcuffed immigration control with anywhere near such extravagant legal process as America has -- including not just at the border but also internally at the workplace and at the government bennies offices and in cases of deportation and also on private businesses and citizens. In France it is SOP for hotels to demand to see Identity Cards or Passports. French and English judges are not telling the immigration authorities in France and England that they need to release the illegal immigrants from Africa and the Middle East penned up in Calais so that they can go through the Channel Tunnel.
In America, it is very hard to rein in judges once they conjure up the notion that somehow, somewhere constitutional "due process" requires this or that extravagant "protection".
Nonetheless, the Congress needs to try to tighten up legal procedures on immigration control as much as possible. Judges need to be persuaded that although foreigners might be afforded the same "due process" as an American in common criminal and civil cases, nonetheless, when it comes to immigration control, where the issue is whether they have a right to even be here, they simply do not deserve the same "process".
18
@sam finn: This is incorrect. The issue is not about rounding up and deporting undocumented immigrants: ICE and Border Patrol does it day in and day out. The issue is to process a large number of refugees.
You are also mistaken regarding their rights: under international law, asylum seekers deserve protection and due process.
The situation is different in France because most of the North-African immigrants cannot claim refugee status. Their lives are not at risk in their country of origin. Those who cross the Mediterranean Sea coming from Erythrea or Syria are, of course, processed as refugees - as should be most of the families who left the violence in Guatemala, Honduras, Salvador, and Nicaragua, and walked hundreds of miles to our borders.
5
@sam finn
Due Process is "not conjured up". It isa vital part of the Constitution and indeed ensures against autocracy.
Comparing our law to that of France or Britain. PS: The requirement to show identity papers is to do with matters criminal and security not immigration (since as you mention it is Hotels, where illegals are not likely to be staying with this requirement.
I have no doubt that you use the same argument against the Constitutional rights of Criminal defendants
And no illegal immigrants do not have the same rights as legal residents, as I can attest, both as an attorney and as someone who had an acquaintance who was deported. There is a process that is different from the regular system
Judges need to be persuaded by Congress? No, Judges need to be independent of partisan political bodies as much as possible. The should be guided by the Constitution only and while there are Jurists whose interpretation of that document I would dispute, we need them not to be persuadable by the Executive or Congress.
3
@sam finn
Think of this way: when you start tinkering with due process, everyone's in danger.
Yes and no. Yes, there are far smarter ways to protect a border than Trump's wall, and the Israeli version looks way better. No, it seems that the better the wall, the more insecure are the people. To the extent that the walls a country surrounds itself with are reflections of something more fundamental and powerful, I see an inverse relationship between the "stiffness"of the wall and the security of the citizens.
3
@PJM
Exactly, the better the wall, the more insecure the people. That in a nutshell is the payoff for Trump. Cynicism at it’s utmost.
Or we could pass a law making it illegal to hire people without proper work documentation. Make the owners of the business criminally liable for violations.
OK, that is actually the law. We just aren't interested in enforcing it.
230
@David H.-Worth pointing out that Trump has married an illegal immigrant, hired illegal immigrants, and fast-tracked his in-laws' citizenship bid through so-called chain migration. Kushner's sister sold citizenship to Chinese backers for $500K and Rep. Devin Nuneshas benefited from illegal farmworkers.
Devin Nunes’s Family Farm is Hiding a Politically Explosive Secret - Sept. 20, 2018
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a23471864/devin-nunes-family-farm-iowa-california
https://www.palmerreport.com/politics/portugal-devin-nunes-russian-government-portugal/2244
https://themoscowproject.org/explainers/the-nunes-file
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/devin-nunes-and-the-invention-of-fake-oversight/553694
36
@David H. Too true, but the employers (and by extension, all the rest of us) also need the cheap, competent, underclass labor force. The entire immigration "debate" is literally nothing but culture war nonsense.
6
@Ann Jared was pitching EB-5 visas in China. An EB-5 visa is awarded after the foreign national invests ($500,000) in programs that create jobs in the U.S. The EB-5 program can grant a 2 year permanent residence status. We want wealthy Chinese people coming to this country don't we? I think what Jared was doing is very patriotic and I applaud him for doing it. I find it typical of the Left that they throw stones at the more successful among us and their main goal is to pull successful people down. You want to get out of poverty? Find something people want and sell it to them. Better yet, find something rich people want and sell it to them.
1
This is a great idea for an actual problem. What Trump wants, and what the GOP is going along with, is a testament to fearmongering.
If it wasn't for Trump's desire to keep the approval of his base and to keep Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh in his corner, he would let the issue go.
15
Trump really doesn't care about a wall.
He wants two things.
He wants the approval of Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham.
And he wants to keep our attention diverted from all the legal complications that are here with more coming.
Not to mention he loves the confusion and the resulting attention.
99
@Independent
Actually, while the appalling DJT thrives in being a disrupter, he does want a wall. It’s Democrats who do not.
1
Of course walls can be effective at the appropriate places, which is why there is hundreds of miles of wall and fence at the southern border. The places where there is no such barrier at present are by and large places where such barriers would either (a) be difficult to erect (b) be ineffective at stopping crossings or (c) hamper border security from doing their job effectively. So, the point is not that all walls are ineffective at all time; rather, it's that this version of a concrete wall being touted by the President will be ineffective. And that's not just my opinion. That's what the non-partisan experts at border security (DHS, CBP, etc.) are saying . Different places along the southern border need different tools for effective border security such as increased patrolling, or smarter monitoring through technology, or increased personnel for inspections along checkpoints, etc. A single end-to-end concrete wall cannot substitute for this.
Since the campaign, Trump has been asked multiple times if he meant 'wall' figuratively as a metaphor for increased border security. Had he said yes, we wouldn't be having this debate since no one (not even Democrats and progressives, despite what the right-wing media might say) is in favor of lessening or weakening the border. Instead he has doubled down on this silly notion of a concrete wall leading us to this sorry state at present.
40
Without going into the reasons why comparing Israeli borders to ours with Mexico is almost as bad an idea as Donnie's wall, or the many non-barrier solutions available to control immigration, a simple overall question is this --
WHY are we approaching the southern border as if it's 5,000 BCE and we are a nation cowering behind the ramparts of Jericho in death fear of nomadic marauders? Trump may have never used a computer, but guess what? The world has changed. We now have technology to turn to for answers.
Problem/Solution
Recently, my dog started barking when I was away for the day; not good for her, the neighbors, or my nerves. If I was Trump, I would spend tens of thousands of dollars on soundproofing my walls, ceilings, and floors to get the "sound crisis" under control.
Instead, I got a wireless camera that sends an email to my iPhone when the dog barks. I can then watch and talk to her in real time (from anywhere). She hears my voice and stops, and as an added benefit, I can press a button, and the 'camera' dispenses a dog cookie. Everybody is happy; me, the dog, and the neighbors. The camera cost all of $99! It takes 3 minutes to order it online.
I understand that border security is more complicated, but if America had more imagination than fear, we could invent a digital solution instead of all this wall madness. We are the people of Macintosh, Microsoft, and a man on the Moon, so let's stop acting like we are a nation of frightened bricklayers.
408
@Dan Fannon
This! I wish I could recommend this comment a thousand times over! This obsession with bricks and concrete has been utterly baffling to me.
21
@Dan Fannon. Agreed!
6
@Dan Fannon
Mr. Fannon, let me give you some kind of award for the MOST intelligent, thoughtful yet common-sense example solution to the Wall Problem I have yet read.
Phony “Leaders” with a closed mind will only suggest (or demand, in trump’s case) so-called solutions arising from the individual’s id, prejudices, and mind-set. With your reference to “5,000 BCE”, you have nailed it on the head: trump’s id/prejudices/and mind-set are at once archaic, express a thinly-veiled racial hatred for non-whites, and a zero-sum viewpoint of transactions between individuals. (“For me to win, he has to lose”.) That is so NOT the 21st century.....
I’ve been a yellow-dog Democrat from the age of about 16, although nowadays I’d call myself a Democratic Socialist or at least a progressive Democrat. I sure miss the days of forward-thinking Real Leaders like JFK, who could envision -- and then challenge the U.S. -- to put that man on the Moon!
15
Many thanks for the fine suggestions on how to build a better wall. The rationale for Israel's borders is flawless.
Unfortunately the current dispute in our Country has absolutely nothing to do with a wall. The only Americans currently at risk are Federal workers.
My increasing anxiety is not based on Southern border invasions of any type ... I sincerely cannot believe what's happening to our politics.
71
If security were actually the true goal of Trump's administration, this editorial and similar analyses in other media provide convincing arguments that border security can best be achieved without wasting money on Trump's "wall." Trump is not a person who can be convinced by facts. His instincts have misguided him on many fronts -- the US economy, international trade, and relations with demagogues to name a few. This time things are different. Whereas his refusal to believe in climate change affects future generations and not our own as much, the government shutdown has immediate horrendous consequences for federal workers, the poor, and farmers Trump does not care about them. His priorities lie with fulfilling an empty campaign promise to rally support for his reelection. He must have the ineffective wall, no matter what anyone else suffers. The shutdown must stop now. The damage is already too much. I don't see a way out unless Trump can be placated by praise for a humanitarian decision to end the crisis he created. Maybe the promise of a Nobel peace prize nomination can sway him. This would go hand in hand with the buzz of a Nobel Peace Prize nomination for solving the still unsolved nuclear problem with North Korea. There is still the possibility of solving the problem through family separation -- namely by putting Trump and Trump Jr. in different jails if they are convicted of campaign collusion.
18
Thank you for this, Mr. Stephens. I've been wondering (out loud) why we are not seeing more new stories on walls in general, or the existing barriers between the US and Mexico. Seems like we are stuck in opinion mode. Where is the mainstream media, prime time coverage about what is currently going on at the border, what has changed, what it looks like, what the issues are, why some sections aren't or can't be built? We should be bombarded with stories around this the way Trump bangs out tweets (or whoever is writing them for him at times). Over the last weeks I've found a very few articles and one really has to dig to try to get a picture of the existing border structure and situation. Not that any reality is going to change anyone's opinion, especially his rock-solid base, but I think this information should be front and center in the national discourse on the Wall.
14
A couple of other things Israel is doing - they are preparing their workforce for the knowledge economy of tomorrow, and they have universal military service. The wall is only one element in their plan to make themselves relevant to the world. Do you hear the talking about tariffs and making Palestinians pay for the wall?
18
Actually, Israel does not have universal military service. It's Christian- and Muslim-Arab population is not drafted, and thousands of ultra-, ultra-Orthodox Jewish Israelis are not required to serve in the military, much to the understandable chagrin of the nearly all the rest of the Israeli population.
1
@Jonathan
Hilarious. Worthy of a Saturday Night Live skit.
Netanyahu an auditorium bellowing the “Palestinians are gonna pay for the wall !!” …
What Israel does with its borders is irrelevant to the situation here. The border fence down south is simply a political show-piece that Trumpy needs to keep his job. Without the pretenses of building one, he'd be out on his ear. The increasing undocumented population today is overwhelmingly from people overstaying their visas. In fact, there are more people without proper documentation entering the country from Canada, than there are from the southern border. Drugs are shipped in through the ports. The only folks who could benefit from this proposed southern border are those who'd get the contracts to build it. Those funds should be used to fix our crumbling infrastructure.
95
i would have led with the last paragraph. a barrier, 21st century or otherwise, does little if anything to address the situation at the border.
13
Over and over again many other commentators and I have stated that there are some perfectly doable, elegant solutions to transform immigration issues in the U.S.. And time and time again, we all agree with each other only to discover that everyone has a reason why nothing will work.
In the end, I'm convinced that the powers-that-be don't want a solution. Too many businesses and special interests like things just the way they are. Even Trump's wall stunt is just another distraction which is designed to enrage people but offers no real solution.
41
Mr. Trump wants a concrete wall; a recognizable wall 'a la Trump', where graffiti, photos and hearts can be posted. Testimonies from refugees out in the cold, dates of the decease of children, and those who were injured by our troops.
While this ruthless tug-of-war is taking place between the divided Parties on whether to mollify Mr. Trump at a financial and moral price, or stand strong against caving in when he has a temper tantrum, let us give 'The Caravan', port of entry to the women and children, some who are ill; some who will remember how we failed.
5
Trump specifically wants a wall because it’s a word with only one syllable while the phrase “smart fence packed with electric sensors” has ten. Too complicated for Trump and much of his base. The sound bite trumps common sense.
44
The best wall would be E-Verify, as long as our immigration laws are enforced. If those laws are not enforced, then no wall is effective.
Every year tens of thousands of kidnappings and murders occur in the countries to our south. Few of the perpetrators are found or punished. That, in itself, is a good reason to impose a quarantine.
31
@caveman007
caveman logic there .
The people trying to enter this country are not the perpetrators of the kidnappings or murders. Government figures show that all but a miniscule number of the crimes committed are minor (including many accused of entry or re-entry to the US!)
The overwhelming majority of illegals are not "criminas" by your measure, just people trying for a better life.
At least Bret has the sense to go and look at how modern "security barriers" work ... but he's missing the fact that the Israeli security barrier just slows an intruder down somewhat AND detects him; the real interdiction is a very rapid patrol response and that takes a lot of people. Trump's wall won't slow people down much more, and it will be less good at detecting they've come through.
If you want to see a "better" barrier look at the DMZ (or the old East German barrier) ... lots of land mines. Land mines and other lethal devices (high power electric fences, light-beam-activated guns) have all been employed.
Is that what Americans want? It does work ... in contrast to Trump's farce.
7
@Lee Harrison
That's a good point about it slowing people down long enough for a patrol to apprehend them. It could be argued, though, that there's a difference between Israel or Korea, which has a few hundred miles of border to cover, and the US, which has 2,000 miles and some very remote spaces. Do we have enough presence in remote areas for a rapid response if an unauthorized entry is detected, even with high technology?
That would be an all-out tragedy if we turned to land mines. I sincerely hope it never comes to that.
5
@Tim Ernst -- the short answer is that there's no way to build a non-lethal barrier that people cannot get through ... or over, or under ... reasonably quickly.
Everyone with any military experience knows the realities. Soldiers know all about perimeter security of bases -- same problem, in miniature. We learned a lot of very hard lessons on that one in Viet Nam.
If you are insisting that the interdiction response is humans who will do a humane arrest, I don't think we can possibly afford to maintain the density needed to achieve that along our long border.
And point-of-fact the Israelis don't do that along their much shorter one, or at least not consistently. It's presumed that if you come through their barrier you will be shot, unless it is easy to take you into custody ...and they want to. That's standard interdiction.
The Israelis use land-mines -- they have used a LOT of them. They still have anti-tank landmine fields north of the Dead Sea, and in areas around the Golan ... at least.
The original Israeli description of their security barrier states explicitly:
"Most of the barrier will be a chain-link type fence similar to those used all over the United States combined with underground and long-range sensors, unmanned aerial vehicles, trenches, landmines and guard paths."
3
The solution to controlling unlawful immigration is to hold responsible the companies who employ or educate migrants. Putting the Boards of Directors in jail for a few weeks should work wonders to reduce overstays and unlawful employment.
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@mhmercer -- of course. A federal requirement for universal E-verify would be far, far cheaper and much more effective at stopping illegal immigration.
The fact of the matter is that powerful Republican interests (farming, meat packing, food processing) depend on their illegal work forces. A considerable amount of construction does too.
The "wall" is just a very bad and expensive joke.
13
@mhmercer. And let’s start with Trump who is known to employ illegals at his resorts!
@mhmercer
No! Duh! The solution is to change the rules for lawful immigration.
No one seems to notice who has been left out of the conversation - the governments of the countries from whom these refugees seek asylum. Is it too naive to ask our government to work in cooperation with these countries' governments to crack down on gang violence, promote the rule of law, and help these countries to strengthen their economies so they can be thriving peaceful neighbors of ours? However idealistic this might sound, it provides a realistic solution to the problem of peaceful cohabitation on our planet. If all countries were thriving, we wouldn't have a problem with asylum-seeking refugees.
It seems clear that pursuing a path of international peace and justice, perhaps through intergovernmental cooperation, perhaps through U.N. support, is not even on the table, in any shape or form. Instead we focus selfishly on how to protect what we have, not considering that we can only be truly secure when all our neighbors feel secure too.
26
Most illegals are smuggled in through ports of entry, as are drugs. What we need are better ways to detect people and contraband that have been hidden in vehicles. Currently, millions of vehicles go through these legal points of entry each year. What we have is a smuggling problem, not an overland invasion problem. Furthermore, it wouldn't be a bad idea to make some investments in Central America to improve local conditions so people don't have to flee their homelands. And it also wouldn't hurt if Americans would stop using drugs thereby cutting off the profit from the drug cartels.
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I believe Bret Stephens raises an important question that deserves further analysis: what constitutes effective border security for the 21st century? We live in a high tech world of electronics, drones, and tracking devices. Your personal smart phone asks you about the supermarket you just visited. Physical barriers such as walls are great political symbols, but have serious limitations. In addition, no one has addressed the cost of maintaining a wall.
I believe that there is a need for more thorough analysis and congressional debate in order to select the best option. It is unfortunate that the country is being held hostage by the executive branch of the government. Political extortion should have no place in the USA.
Congress should reopen the government now. A bipartisan committee should do the homework needed to come up with a forward thinking solution to our border issues.
15
A good idea, but would either side agree to it?
3
@Mike Livingston Have the Democrats rejected any of this?
Bret Stephens has written a column without meaning. The types of fences he shows, even if effective, can never be built here, because both Nancy and Chuck have already told the President that they will not authorize even one dollar (that's $1.00) for a border wall. Or does Mr. Stephens know of a special Walmart super sale on prefabricated national security walls?
9
@Joe Pearce I don't believe this is true. Their principle argument has been that the government workers should not be made pawns in this game. There are already a significant system of border fencing, and elaborating, shoring up or improving that system has never been a point of contention.
14
@Joe Pearce, the Trump administration has no plan, no engineering, no cost estimates for this "wall". No one has any idea exactly what $5B will actually do. Until all that has been decided, I personally have no reason to want our country to throw $5B into a big black hole and it's financially irresponsible to do so.
2
@Joe Pearce
Pelosi and Shumer have agreed to sensible 21st century border security, including fencing where viable. Many republicans, when they are not being obsequious, agree. Remember that bill that passed the Senate with a large majority just several weeks ago, the one that the House was ready to pass until Herr Trump was bullied into changing his mind about signing it?
You are being disingenuous.
Huh! Has there ever been in history an impenetrable wall, barrier or fence? The French constructed an electrified fence along the Algeria-Tunisia border during the Algerian War; it was sabotaged to enable the fighters to penetrate from Tunis. Even the infamous Berlin Wall was breached on occasions.
In addition to watch-towers and electronic monitoring of the air, ground, and subsurface space, automatically activated tranquilizer guns may add a measure of protection or drone patrols along the fence around the clock.
Why we would build a wall of 7th century BC construct and mentality when there is far more efficient and environmentally friendly 21st century technology available to us boggles one's mind.
14
@Charles. Yes. From a people who put a man on the moon, it’s quite baffling.
Dear Bret:
The United States does not face an existential threat of any kind on our southern border. The reason Trump’s GOP is going to the gunwals on this issue is to placate the racist views of its base and prevent brown skinned people from becoming voters in the US.
We do not need a fence or wall.
We should be building a thousand Ellis Island Pots of Entry for a new generation of immigrants whose talents and energies we badly need.
Love,
Actual Americans who don’t Fear Other People
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@Jeffrey Schantz What would you say the average education is of a typical migrant from Central America? There's a significant likelihood that these people coming here will require significant government assistant for the rest of their lives.
2
@Jeffrey Schantz
Thousands of new Ellis Island Pots??
Why do we need that many?
A proper immigration program is all that we need.
Let's keep our pots for cooking.
1
@Jeffrey Schantz Millions of actual American blue collar workers from plumbers to meat packers have been adversely impacted by cheap illegal labor. Why do you think so many support the WALL? They're not brainwashed or stupid, they're looking out for their economic interests.
1
Interesting thought, and I'm no supporter ot the Trump wall approach, but...
Israel's success is due to the fact that it really has a different option in the deterrence aspect. Their border is designed to keep people out, for sure, but Israel has an option of killing anyone attempting to cross it.
The US can't call in an air strike or shoot anyone crossing the Southern border. Again, I simply detest Trump's plan, but Israel's approach isn't entirely apt in terms of a solution - but it still way better than Trump's proposal.
13
@T Mo
Did you read the recent NYT front page article about an
unarmed Palestinian female nurse shot dead by an Israeli soldier while attending to a wounded demonstrators on the Palestinian side of the fence?
What is better about that?
Excellent idea, Mr.Stephens-thank you for the article.A smart fence makes all kinds of sense and using modern technology and surveillance is preferable to a slab of concrete.I like to say that Trump has an “Ediface Complex” .He obviously wants a wall which he can point to as his wall.Please get some of your Republican friends to explain to Trump the wisdom you share in this op-Ed.They may Not read the NYTimes but you can explain it to them.
4
If we were at war with Mexico for the entirety of our existence, a military type border might be an option.
But we are not. And quite the contrary to the mob-stirring propaganda from the White House, the Mexican people are some of the most sincere, honest and friendly people you could have for neighbors.
Just as the Canadians are, to our North. We should be counting our blessings.
Instead President Bone Spur is pitching a fit, and his followers want to burn down the library.
There aren't two equal but opposing sides here; just people trying to live, and a gang of corrupt liars.
There is no crisis at the border. We do not need a military border.
62
@Fred Armstrong:
I'm certainly against the wall and the horrible way Trump/GOP are handling immigration; but most "illegal migrants" are not Mexican, they are Central and South American and fleeing crashing economies, constant gang warfare, and military/ police ineffectiveness.
2
"Why can’t Democrats and Republicans simply agree to build additional smart fencing in places where it’s missing and call it, for political effect, an “Israeli-style barrier”?"
Is there any reason to think that Democrats would not agree to this? I don't think so. Get rid of the equivalence!
The question is why won't the Republicans agree to this?
7
NO! The situation in not analogous.
The only thing threatening at the border is The President.
Reopen the closed agencies and review immigration policies. Determine the actual threats and take action accordingly. Not all undocumented aliens have cross the southern border.
19
The only relevant point here is that the US does not face Hezbollah outposts or anything like it on its southern border. Fence, wall, none of it makes any sense for the US with its consistently declining numbers of immigrants trying to cross the border for the past 20 years. Israel's massive and soul crushing Wall (not a fence) in parts of the occupied territories is a slightly better comparison to Trump's aspiration, as it is primarily a right wing political statement/stunt which dehumanizes commuting Palestinians as Trump seeks to do with Latin American immigrants.
15
Excellent points. I support Mr. Trump. Totally!
4
@Luisa C.:
Really? Even though the phrase "build a wall" was given him in 2014 to "help him remember" some of the talking points fed to him by advisers? Now its morphed into this huge power / ego trip for Trump.....even knowing this you "support" him? Even though 800,000 Federal employees are not being paid so Trump can prove a point?
America is not Israel, Mexico is not Palestine, and Central America is not the Mideast.
We in the USA need comprehensive immigration reform to improve the security and the functioning of labor markets, cross-border travel and workable refugee policies, such as was hammered out in bipartisan deals endorsed by both Presidents Obama and George W. Bush, but killed by self-serving opportunists and xenophobes in the US Congress.
Trump's malfeasance and incurable incompetence is the symptom. The disease is a dysfunctional Congress, and the reason for that affliction lies -at least with this migration issue- mainly, though certainly not completely, with the thoroughly unacceptable Republican Party establishment which has become chronically incapable of thinking or acting on behalf of the public interest of the United States.
Trying to turn America into Israel (a country 1/500th as big) is no kind of meaningful or workable answer either.
14
@Sage: Indeed. More than two-thirds of the Senate approved comprehensive immigration reform —TWICE — once during Republican presidency and once during a Democratic presidency. Both times, the extremist right-wing contingent of the Republican Party scuttled the legislation in the House.
Both plans included increased border security; both addressed fair treatment of ‘illegal’ immigrants who have established themselves in this country, who have not broken the law, who have jobs and families and children and who have become productive members of our society. Tossing such people out now is all about spite - and it would only damage our economy and our social fabric. At the same time, the earlier legislation would have taken steps to minimize future ‘illegal migration.’
But heck, that sort of stuff makes sense - and none of this is about sense. It’s about fanning the flames. It’s about showboating. It’s about turning millions of Americans into a an armchair lynch mob.
The fertility rate in America is at an all-time low. Without significant immigration each year, we will have a shrinking, aging population and a stagnant economy unable to support it. The current xenophobic frenzy fostered by the Republican right is self-destructive insanity; a slow but inexorable form of national suicide.
Don't really think the concept of something simply smart, and effective would resonate with the president, or his base.
The presidents WALL concept is a bludgeon meant to repel the invaders and infidels.
4
This piece assumes that illegal immigration from Mexico is a security issue. However, impoverished and/or starving men, women and children looking for work and safety are not a security threat to the USA. Neither is Mexico. There has never been any terrorist, much less a military attack on the USA or any of its institutions by anyone that crossed illegally from Mexico into the USA in the last 100 years. Truth is that the situation at our Southern Border is a humanitarian crisis. Politicians, journalists and pundits would help finding a solution to that crisis much easier by calling it by its proper name. Nomen est omen.
18
President Trump told us that "he alone" can fix our nation's problems. And how does he know what to do? He just goes with his gut instinct. And his gut tells him that a wall (or steel barrier) on our southern border is the right thing. End of discussion.
President Trump represents a proudly ignorant segment of America that thinks we have nothing to learn from experts, let alone from any other country. Let's not look at an Israeli-style "smart fence" that takes into account different geographic problems at different points along our border. Let's not look at countries like Canada, Australia, and France, where people generally love their health care system. In fact, let's bully other countries, pull out of our agreements with them, and make sure that our international allies can no longer trust us.
Best to just go with your gut. That always works out well, right? After all, we're Americans, and we're always right! MAGA!
10
@jrinsc You forgot the part where Trump announces that the word T-R-U-M-P will be spelled out in big concrete letters atop all fencing at the border. That's the point. He wants a monument to himself. Soon he'll be showing models of pyramids entirely made out of TRUMP.
1
i prefer the fence between Belgium and the Netherlands as the model.
7
@Elizabeth, thanks, I did a google image search and found it delightful. At least in its contemporary incarnation...!
Israel's wall is only 440 miles, but very technologically advanced as you say.
Israel employs other methods to deter illegal immigration. They tax employers of illegal immigrants and sometimes offer layouts to the interlopers.
Personally, as I've mentioned in other comments, I think Trump's proposal is aimed more at keeping the FBI at bay, than keeping illegals out.
Out of sight. Out of mind.
4
@Texan
Handouts not layouts. Spell checker issue.
1
OMG!
"Since President Trump thinks border security is the issue of our time, it’s worth considering how Israel — with tight borders, real threats, and a no-nonsense attitude toward its security needs — does it." is a false statement. President Trump's thoughts do not make something "worth considering." One might expect a little less fealty to governmental power from someone in the press!
Your article is very nicely written and the topic is interesting. Your last paragraph makes a valid, if tangential, point. But the fact remains that increased measures further to enhance border security are truly not needed at this time.
4
Omitting the Berlin-Wall aspect to it, and seeing it as a security issue for the Israeli's - Would it even scale up to the huge distances in the American Southwest?
If you know all about Israel's border defenses, Bret, I'm sure Homeland Security knows all about them also. So when you got to "why can't Democrats and Republicans simply agree...." you lost me. I'm sure Nancy, Chuck, and MItch have been briefed many times on the topic of border protection.
Trump is the problem. Nancy and Chuck and Mitch can waltz into the White House with proposals for smart fences and fancy surveillance terminals monitored by ulta-focused women with fantastic attention spans---so what?
Trump wants a wall. He almost acquiesced to some fencing, but then Ann Coulter had a fit and that was the end of that.
But, you never know, maybe the folks at Fox Fake News will read your column and like your idea. That's pretty much the only hope we have.
17
@CF
You should probably leave Mitch out of the equation. He can't do any waltzing while he's on his knees in front of 45*.
Why not? The better question is why don’t the leaders in either party join the the 21st century and speak to the people at this level. Trump wasted some of his best public speaking...er...reading...with a boring recitation of “Oog want Wall.” In less time, he could have offered this option, or something else, with...I don’t know...pictures. Maybe something showing how they came up with his particular desire. A five line budget. Dems-jammed-at-the-podium were equally uninspiring and ancient in delivery.
3
I recommand giving DT ten billions provided he steps down right now.
7
@Rudy
And then take 20 billion in all the ensuing lawsuits? Yeah, I could live with that.
Bret conveniently left out that much of Israel's "border" fences and walls go through territory that it is illegally occupying, such as the Golan Heights, and do not run along the internationally recognized 1967 border. To truly follow the Israeli example, the US would have to put a "smart fence" several miles into Northern Mexico, an idea that I'm sure has already crossed Trump's mind.
10
@Diego
Israel's occupation of the West Bank is legal because Israel was attacked just as our occupation of Japan was legal because we were attacked.
There is no official border between Israel & Palestine. Official borders are set by treaties & there is no treaty between Israel & Palestine setting an official border.
I'd like to see a smart fence around the Senate -- one that would keep the Republican "non-leadership" out!
3
Israel is at war with those on the other side of the wall. We are not. Those on the other side of Israel’s wall want to get in to harm it. Those on the other side of our wall benefit and enrich our economy. There is a big difference.
7
@sapere aude Sorry, you need to educate yourself better or you'll be in the same hopeless boat at President Trump. Israel isn't at war with Egypt, or Jordan, and has a working relationship with Fatah in the West Bank. By contrast, Israel is in a state of cease-fire with Lebanon, after invading, then withdrawing. Its in a state of cease-fire with Syria, on the Golan Heights, which Israel has occupied since 1973 and is now making noise about claiming as sovereign territory. And Israel is in a persistent state of conflict with Hamas in Gaza. So Israel has built cyclopean concrete walls around the border with Gaza, and around the illegal settlements it has built in the West Bank.
The border between Israel and Jordan, or Israel and Egypt, is not unlike the border between the USA and Mexico. A line between two nation states, both of which have a vested interest in the success of the other. Not something that needs 30 feet of reinforced concrete, or 70 foot steel slats, or whatever nightmares swim in President Trump's dreams.
The autocrat Trump is starving almost 40 million Americans! Tomorrow not only will 800,000 workers not get a paycheck, but 38 million people will not get foodstamps!!
where are the Republicans on this issue, it's just inhumane. And not common sense as Trump wants you to believe.
Deplorable.
6
But by losing body fat those “starving” citizens will lower their medical costs.
So we should have a fence and monitor movement near our border and if individuals approach our border with intent to cross into the U.S. we should call in an air strike like Israel does, paragraph 10. Do I have that right? Sounds good to me. I mean if you want to dissuade people from approaching our border, nothing will work as well as vaporizing some migrants here and there.
7
@Jim Tagley Stephens does not suggest that. The individuals who were the target of the air strike were terrorists wearing suicide vests not migrants.
4
For goodness sake Brett, the Israelis kill people on that border almost weekly. I can think of a better wall to discuss than and that one, and it's final disposition, The Berlin Wall.
"General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate.
Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate!
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
-President Reagan 1987
Lets not go backwards Bret, how about forward and recommend we spend that $5.6 billion on Infrastructure. That should be on the top of everyone's list along with healthcare insurance.
14
I, for one, am PERFECTLY willing to hear a reasoned debate, pro and con, on the wall. But honestly, all I have ever heard on this topic is frenzied and vituperative commentary, which is NOT reasoned.
And HOW long has this issue existed?
Do facts mean nothing? Are they not to be used?
Or are certain parties simply afraid that if the facts WERE known, there would be no cause in the minds of many except the most paranoid and reactionary among us, for such a wall.
And now, this government shutdown.
Over the WALL.
I mean, you've really got to wonder.
137
"Nothing says my facts are better than yours than the volume of my screeching" seems to be the rule of discourse these days.
1
@Jake Yes, facts mean nothing to this President and his Republican enablers. No, facts are not to be used when they do not support what this President's wishes -- his Administration instead uses "alternative facts."
4
@Jake Yes wonder why border security is not a priority for everyone, the "wall" is just a short hand for border security. With physical barriers backed up by various means being the answer in some areas, other responses where they are appropriate. The president has said this many times when he is not in rally mode and is being serious.
Yes, some artful 21st century language is needed here. How about negotiating the construction of a "virtual wall," which would make use of a targeted range of technologies.including if and where necessary a "smart fence," which would actually accomplish what the wall is supposed to do, but nobody except the WH thinks it would--monitor and control the inflow of migrants. Given the tendencies to cost-overruns of new technologies, it could even cost as much as Trump wants for an old-fashioned, ineffective hardscape, thus giving him the right to say he got the money he wanted.
1
When you say "the best way to protect a border is to rely on the tools of the 21st century, not the 12th," you fail to offer any alternatives to curbing illegal immigration -- but you are certainly trying to dissuade others from building a wall. Before Trump, all the previous politicians were also in favor of "the tools of the 21st (in some cases late-20th) century, not the 12th." There was the Gang of Eight, there was Reagan, Bush Sr., and Bush Jr. The result? What we have today: ever-expanding caravans, and an ever-worsening problem. You are trying to look the other way like everybody else before Trump did. In recent years, the country has rebelled against looking the other way -- that's one of the reasons we got Trump. I remember that even in 2012, when they were polling registered Republicans, the common response was "We'll hold our nose and vote for Romney, but we're angry that all these establishment people don't represent our views on illegal immigration."
7
I rarely agree on anything Mr. Stephens pens, today is an exception. Good fact based reporting. Thanks.
2
Much like previous GOP shutdowns over spending that had nothing to do with spending, this GOP shutdown over border security has nothing to do with border security. They have all been look-tough stunts to distract from the economic dead end policies that they have visited on their most loyal supporters for 38 years and counting. Why even one American still falls for this transparent scam is an enduring mystery.
9
This article demonstrates that Trump drags us all down the lowest level of intelligence. Instead of relying on our better angels, or our smarter ideas, he chooses to drag us through the mud. And sadly, since the base only represents about 75% of Republicans, Stephens' "more moderate" colleagues also chose to elect him over "that woman." The small possibility of a real estate tycoon somehow having the chops to run the country outweighed the probability of having a much more experienced and seasoned candidate to do the job well.
Nice work, Americans! We own this beauty.
9
If one were really serious about stopping illegal immigration, one would require that all US employers use IDverify to determine if a potential employee was legally in this country. And, vigorously enforce it. But, there are probably a lot of companies that wouldn't like this, and threaten to deny campaign contributions to legislators that voted for the new rule. As in many other areas, it all comes back to money in politics, exacerbated by the Citizens United decision, that legalized the purchase of politicians by corporations.
118
@gbb
Agreed.
But I doubt that either the Republicans or the Democrats have the will to foist e-verify on all employers.
This sentiment prevailed when the Republicans, despite previously holding a majority in both the House and the Senate, had their immigration bill rejected.
10
@gbb-Currently the E-verify Program has been halted because of the shutdown. Sigh.
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/681969112/an-irony-shutdown-fight-over-border-security-takes-toll-on-immigration-enforceme
12
@gbb
Spend part of that $5 billion to make e-verify more effective. I believe it is poorly conceived and executed right now.
6
The Democrats are playing a dangerous game, boxing Trump in on the wall, and forcing him to declare a national emergency. If he does, he can govern by fiat, ignoring Congress on other issues that can be tenuously related to building a wall. He can also file trumped up charges as excuses to detain political opponents, especially those who oppose a wall.
A chain link fence fitted with sensors and topped by electrified barbed wire is a "smart fence." If the Dems were smart, they would change the conversation to a "smart fence,"and agree to fund it, for a fraction of the cost of a wall. In all likelihood, a good deal of the existing fencing can be converted to a smart fence at modest cost. For public relations purposes, such a fence could also be called a "virtual wall."
Incidentally, why steel slats? Rumor has it that Trump has already promised Putin that if the wall is built, he will use Russian steel for the slats.
9
@Ron Cohen Trump does not need this excuse to declare a national emergency. And the real "emergency" will come when impeachment proceedings start.
3
The Trump wall concept is a political stunt. I agree that if we want real border security,a "smart" fence is the right solution.
However, such a smart fence should contain minimal physical barriers, as this is the border not only between the US and Mexico, but also across the continent. It is necessary for wildlife to be able to pass back and forth.
6
From past reading of Mr. Stephens I understand that he favors greatly expanded immigration. A remnant from his days at the Journal, probably, where any restriction on immigration is thought of as a restriction on an employer's right to cheap labor.
But unlike him, and the Times editorial policy, I do favor a greatly restricted immigration policy which would aim for a zero population growth in our country. My reason is environmental, and based on the belief that we already have too many people. In the 1950's, when I was a boy, our population was around 150 million people. Now it is over 315 million, and rising rapidly. I have already seen so much environmental destruction, the paving over of wilderness areas and farmland for housing developments, the congestion, the loss of species and habitat. And the drawing down of aquifers and water shortages in the West. And the building of highways to new developments is subsidized and then can never end because of new population.
In the 1970's our country had reached a replacement level in child births. But since the 70's, because of immigration, legal and illegal, our population continues to burgeon out of control, with the great environmental damage which has occurred and is occurring.
The immigration issue and its relation to overpopulation and consequent environmental disaster in our country has never been studied in any Times piece of which I am aware. And that is a monumental failing of the Times as a newspaper.
40
@wan
That is simply not true. US population is stagnant and as the WW11 generation and baby boomers die off it will only get worse. There was an interesting article recently and others in the past couple of years, with regards to Japan which has an almost zero net immigration policy and is now suffering for it.
Please look at the issue of Trump supporters not really caring about white immigrants just brown and black ones. There is definitely a bigoted view and that is also part of this story.
Environmental damage has already occurred and if we had policies to use sustainable food, water, energy, etc...then we could help with that problem. Not Republicans though. They won't concede there is a problem and back the very high polluting industries that help cause the problem.
Please look at the big picture. We agree on the environment but keeping others out is not feasible and inevitably leads to more problems.
9
@Palcah
With respect to population management, Japan is what every country should be striving to emulate.
Sure, there are drawbacks to an aging demographic, but the ebb and flow of the earth's population is vital for the planet's survival.
This Ponzi Scheme that requires continued population growth as being essential for economic expansion is every bit as suicidal as our mismanagement of the planet's resources.
We should instead be devising better ways to manage our elderly population via family, community and concerted health planning and resources.
Kudos to Japan for swimming against the tide in combatting the earth's out of control population explosion.
15
This makes no sense. Zero population growth is exactly what we need. Overpopulation caused in part by illegal immigration is a key reason for environmental harm. Until population control occurs global warming will only get worse. Also, I don’t want to spend my tax dollars on supporting illegal immigrants who have children without regard to their economic ability to support those children. We have to disincentivize coming to the US as an answer. Maybe then those countries will require a higher level of personal responsibility.
7
Good points. How about this: In return for reopening the government, Democrats promise to quickly hold public hearings on border security, including the cost-effectiveness of The Wall and the *facts* underlying Trump's arguments why a wall is necessary. They could even form a select committee for this specific investigation. After all, Trump had never offered any feasibility study to justify The Wall. If it's as good as he says it is, he shouldn't be afraid of a Congressional study, which could be completed in six months (especially if it isn't charged with actually drafting legislation). Of course, the White House will be allowed to present its own experts to testify, the only problem being that they will have to establish the objective authenticity of any facts they rely upon. Such hearings might actually clarify the issues for the American public, particularly if the Democrats ensure that they are fair, unbiased, and relatively free from political grandstanding -- which shouldn't be difficult given the factual information already in the public domain.
Yeah, I know. Trump will never agree to an honest scrutiny of his wall.
15
@Ken Great idea but not realistic with Don the Con as you note. Easy to talk about technology, meetings, solutions etc. if you're not worried about getting a paycheck. The "immorality" of funding for more wall/fence is a non-issue in my book. We know Trump is nuts and incompetent but he's got the Democrats trapped and looking really bad right now trying to appear holier than thou.
Please get over the notion that this chaos has anything at all to do with Americans not having enough info.
I don't usually agree with Mr. Stephens, but I think a couple main points of this article are correct. First, the main issue the U.S. faces with regard to border security is quite different than the issue faced by Israel. For the U.S. having better immigration policies is far more pressing than improving physical barriers along the U.S. - Mexico border. Second, to the extent better barriers are needed, if at all, smart technology would do vastly better than concrete or steel. Building the type of wall the president is calling for will cost millions per mile if not tens of millions. A ladder costs hundreds. A tunnel not much more. High asymmetric costs in a zero sum contest do not typically lead to favorable outcomes for the side with the higher costs.
11
@Norbert Prexleyi agree on most. except that tunnels not only cost alot of money, these terrorists are also using government money that is for its citizens...to attach another sovereign nation.
Mr. Stephens, while I agree with you in principle, allow me to point out a number of challenges or differences you neglected to mention and this readers and planners may fail to consider and plan around:
1) Israel, in its entirety, is about the size of New Jersey. That's right -- it is tiny compared to even just the lower 48 states of the USA, and minus the US territories (yes, fellow readers, the US also maintains occupied territories).
2) The terrain on much of Israel's borders is largely accessible, with pre-existing roads (some of which originated more than 2000 years ago). I'm not sure if the border fencing on the Egyptian border, which
topographically and climatically is probably the most challenging, includes each inch of desert canyons and their treacherous, towering cliffs (one might say that God made the better and higher wall there, as with parts of our southern border). If Israel didn't need to install smart fencing their, let alone a thirty-foot high steel or concrete wall, Trump probably doesn't need to do so in our own canyon lands.
3) Israel also, I think, relies on its fantastic, precision Air Force to help patrol and protect its borders.
4) Much, if not most, of the adult Israeli population has some military training and experience, and people are accustomed to being observant of others' activity and demeanor and to "say something" if and when they "see something" such as an unattended box or suitcase near a gas station. Very (!!) different in USA.
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I almost wonder if it would be worth it to give Trump $5 billion and let him claim victory; spend $1-1/2 billion on advanced security measures and more border patrols, like the Democrats want to do, and the other $3.5 billion on a stretch of wall where it is likely to do the most good. Then, by the time we're ready to build more wall, it will be the run-up to the 2020 election and we won't have to deal with the Donald anymore.
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@Capt. Obvious
You hope we won't have to deal with him--but that's not a given, sir.
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@Capt. Obvious
How about funding the wall, but also include a provision that all Presidential candidates must disclose their tax returns. I'll bet Individual-1 will back down from his demand for a wall.
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But we don’t have a significant threat of anything at our southern border, Brett.
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After having read Stephens's article, I am reminded of how much I am inspired by Beto O'Rourke's leadership, and the conversation Beto is having at the boarder.
For many people, there is fear in the unknown, which is why it is so important that Beto is painting a nuanced picture of what life in a boarder town (El Paso, TX) is like.
I trust Beto's perspective more than I trust Bret Stephens's: Beto was born in El Paso and has lived there for the vast majority of his life. Stephens was born and has lived only in cities, and therefore has an outsider's perspective.
I believe this is one reason why Stephens's article comes off more as an intellectual exercise, attempting to search for lessons through an analogy. In the process, the article glosses over both the big-picture ethical questions many readers are considering, as well as the nuanced, detailed questions about the lived experience of our country's southern boarder, incomparable to Israel's boarder in so many ways.
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We already are doing a lot of what Brett recommends along the border. There are places with steel or concrete barriers. There are places with nothing but occasional surveillance. A wall across the entire border is pointless. Fences are even pointless in some places other than as a demarcation for the actual geographic border. What we need is comprehensive immigration reform which recognizes the complexity of the issue.
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@azlib: the only "comprehensive immigration reform" that 85% of us Americans want is to deport all the illegals and their illegal families -- and please start with the arrogant demanding "Dreamers"!!! End DACA NOW!
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@Concerned Citizen
Yes, Tramp also promised to remove all 11 million illegals but so far Zero because many work for him.
What I find curious about the debate regarding the "wall" or whatever sort of barrier is being discussed is the focus on the cost. Sure, 5.7 billion is a lot of money but compared to the trillions of dollars expended militarily over the past two decades in the middle east it is a relatively piddling sum, amounting to not even $20.00 per person living in the US. Not to neglect comparing this amount to the 1.5 trillion giveaway to the 1%'ers as formalized in the recent tax legislation passed by the republicans.
The real point here is the potential utility of such a barrier. In populated and highly transited areas such as ports of entry and environs I agree 100% that a functional barrier is a sensible idea, whether it takes the form of a wall, fencing, sensors, observation posts, drones or most logically a combination of such. But along much of the border a continuous wall would be a ridiculous undertaking as even a cursory look at the landscape of the Chihuahuan and Sonoran deserts will reveal. And of course wildlife corridors, while being a concern of minimal importance if even that to republicans should be a crucial consideration to any even moderately environmentally aware person.
The responsible course as I see it would be to address the issue of border security as a policy matter distinct from the craven, malign and hypocritical demands of trumps heartless and pandering legislative toadies and his risibly ignorant "so - called" base.
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@Scott Lewis: And of course $5 Billion is just a payment on the first increment (234 miles) of the wall. OMB's own estimate is that the wall will cost $24.4 million/mile; that figure represents an escalation of an older number just in the last couple of weeks. The Cato Institute estimates that the construction of the entire ~2,000 mile wall alone will cost $59.8 billion; they warn that cost overruns and maintenance costs will swell that number many times over.
(https://www.cato.org/blog/cost-border-wall-keeps-climbing-its-becoming-less-wall)
So, while the cost may seem piddling now compared to other expenses, it's likely to increase. Legal, social and environmental costs will also make that number increase.
Most quagmires start out as small holes, which slowly and inexorably deepen over time. This fence/wall has all the makings of a quagmire.
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@Lew And don't forget the cost of the legal battles and destined to take place over the Government's use of Eminent Domain to take landowner's property and the costly delays that will follow. The Supreme Court dealt a blow to the process a decade ago that empowered land owners and ensures a long and costly fight by every landowner who refuses to comply.
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@Lew It's excellent that you worry about cost, because the Democrats, as you know, are some of the most prolific spenders imaginable -- they spend as much money as possible on public programs, art, and so on. But when it comes to a miniscule (in budgetary terms) amount for *national security*, of all things, they suddenly put up a fierce fight. Given the Democrats' spending habits, their refusal to give 5 or even 25 billion doesn't make much sense.
Real security against illegal immigration would involve doing something effective against visitors who overstay their visas and those who employ illegal immigrants. Our unwillingness to do these things (which would involve a national database of citizens and legal visitors, and the arrest of most manpower managers for Trump's and many other properties and businesses) shows we are interested in security symbols rather than real, fact-based security. Israel is confronted with large, real threats and cannot afford the luxury of mainly symbolic security as we can.
We are rich enough and safe enough to afford wasting money and effort on symbolic gestures (Trump's wall, Guantanamo, dubya's Iraq war, tariffs, and even Vietnam, our symbolic stand against symbolic monolithic Communism). So we continue to live in a world of propagandistic illusions and wonder again and again why reality turns our victories into defeats.
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I don't think we need any lessons from the Israelis. They have a great wall, but no solutions to the real problems they face. And I don't think we need to grant rights to children of parent who brought them here illegally either, as much as that might be a nice thing to do. There is a legal way to come to America and republican can safely say that our laws should be respected. But we Democrats must control this narrative. Every time Trump asks for the wall we should say - according to you, the Mexican got this. And we must highlight that he has provided no details on how he would spend the money. So he is looking for a blank check, and Congress should not give blank checks to anyone. And we must ask Trump, every time possible, that if he was so scared of illegal immigrants, why did he hire so many at his golf clubs? And yes, I really like that idea of trading tax returns for Wall funding, but I would offer 3 Billion tops for that, since we are pretty sure he he is going to go down anyway when Muller cranks up the pressure. Which he will. Or we could add that for the full 5.7 billion, he also has to give a few million of his one money to charity - finally.
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Without the distraction of the border trump and the republicans have nothing to stand behind while they roll back consumer protections environmental regulations, corporate welfare and tax cuts for the rich. A cheap border fence proposed and passed by democrats show the dems to be more financially responsible but more importantly in touch with the concerns trumps moderate supporters. In short it could create a blue tsunami.
14
You either entirely miss or gloss over the most important points:
1) Close cooperation with our neighbors is impossible with Trump in the Oval Office. He doesn't cooperate with anybody and cannot be trusted.
2) Many illegal immigrants and almost all dangerous illegal immigrants already come in the front door... and overstay their visas.
Trump's "negotiating" position reminds me of a saying from the Vietnam War: "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."
Trump says: "I have to destroy all of our alliances and all of the goodwill we've built over the past century in order to save my illusion of the United States."
Dan Kravitz
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@Dan Kravitz-Also worth pointing out that Trump, Sessions and DHS (under Gen Kelly) gave federal immigration agents wide latitude to detain and process for possible deportation virtually ANY foreign national they "suspect" of a crime, charged with a crime, or who has been convicted of a crime. DHS alsotold immigrants they could enter thru certain entry points, then declared them illegal the minute they stepped over the border, separating parents from their children and classifying the children as "unaccompanied". As we know parents have been deported without their children and children have been "lost" in the system. If anxious parents try to get back in the country to locate their children, they'll automatically receive a felony.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article135111869.html#storylink=cpy
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Stephens makes sense, above all in his final sentence.
But -- what effective Israeli-style border security doesn't do is create the big, beautiful symbol of the U.S. as a gated community, excluding the brown hordes, that is provided by the tall, concrete Great Wall of Trump. That symbolism is what excites Trump and his base. Whether such a structure would actually improve border security is almost irrelevant.
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This is the most thoughtful piece I have read in some time on the immigration issue. Do we need border security, including in some places a wall and other means of surveillance and deterrence? Yes, but as part of comprehensive immigration reform that allows people to enter our country legally and safely. Republicans and Democrats need to dispense with their posturing, reopen the government, and pass as soon as possible meaningful immigration reform.
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