Lets electrify the automotive fleet and let the Saudis (all of them, royals and commoners) get back to what they do best, petty thievery.
16
Nick, it seems pound foolish to walk into a chicken house and then dress as a wolf. That notwithstanding, I agree that the people of Yemeni must to be allowed to survive and it pleases me that Congress has the guts to take a stand: not something they appear willing to do for their countrymen.
8
While Kristof is to be lauded for trying to get an accurate picture during an officially allowed visit to Saudi (he might have been wise to have a food taster along), it is unlikely that he was allowed to see the true picture of how a police state operates. The mechanism is always the same in any authoritarian state, create a sea of fear that your citizens cannot escape. Just look at what we know about Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Mao's China, Kim's North Korea, and a number of states controlled by despot wannabes, including Saudi.
8
The automobile industry likes the Saudi status quo very much, thanks!
The car business and its dependencies: marketing and media, real estate development, finance including the giant criminal banks, the entire insurance industry, giant government including the military, the fuel supply and distribution regime ... of which Saudi Arabia represents the marginal supplier.
Our over-industrialized, highly processed food supply depends on continually expanding suburbia which prices farmland above its productive capacity. This allows land to be collateral for the massive loans that keep the agriculture industry solvent.
Saudi Arabia = barbarism to which we sacrifice all so that we might drive in circles from gas station to gas station.
6
Even if you're a cold blooded international "realist" who cares nothing for humanitarianism, building a strategic alliance with the Saudis seems to ignore the lessons of history. The Washington establishment used to think they could play Saddam Hussein off against Iran to their advantage, but his need to maintain his authority through displays of power and terror led him to invade Kuwait, which upset the balance of power so favorable to America's imperial interests in the region. Sooner or later, MBS will have his Kuwait moment, probably in Qatar and probably after the next recession gets into swing. The US will respond, and the decades long cycle of suffering and violence will spread to another Arab country. This will continue to happen for as long as the United States has and will always find its partners in small-minded, vicious strongmen. The alternative -- the masses of Arabs achieving political unity and global influence -- would threaten American hegemony and is therefore considered unacceptable to the smart guys of all parties in D.C.
6
I thought I’ve read that the U.S. exports oil. So why are we importing it from the Saudis?
3
Mr. Bone Saw!
But all dark humor aside, we need to face the facts. The GOP has collapsed into a pit of moral darkness and lies.
Heather Heyer
Jamal Khashoggi
Jakelin Caal Maquin
These are the three murders of the GOP Trump administration. They own responsibility for these murders.
By giving support to white supremacy, the GOP encourages truly dangerous individuals to lash out. Republican hate speech creates an environment of hate. And the haters take action, with a gun or a pipe bomb or in this case by driving into a crowd.
By denigrating journalism, Republicans put individual journalists at risk. By embracing a politician who body slammed someone asking an impertinent question, they embolden people who want to silence opposition permanently. By prioritizing a profitable business deal over human rights, they signal that murderers can get away with it if they buy from us.
By criminalizing immigrants in need, they have created a heartless and cruel system that separates young children from their mothers, and even lets them die.
These are people who died because of Republican hate, corruption, indifference and cruelty. The GOP owns responsibility for these deaths.
20
There's nothing the people of USA can do. Our leaders or the billionaires who pay them will have to act and they don't have the moral fiber to do so. They threw their hands in the air when the NoKorean leader killed his ex-pat brother in an international airport. Trump took it as a signal to make friends. What did we do when Russian thugs walked around London spreading deadly chemicals around parks in an attempt to murder a political enemy? Essentially nothing. Why should we be surprised that a contingent US citizen working in journalism has been murdered and our leaders spout the usual nonsense about "strategic ally" and "democratic ally" as they stuff their pockets with the easiest cash on the planet.
It will not be long before ordinary Americans wake up too late and realize the joke is on them.
10
Many good points are made, but the contextual backdrop of realpolitik is largely lacking.
From the point of view of American values and interests, there is an even more serious issue of international consistency here.
This is far from the only recent instance of brutal, inhumane and murderous violations of human rights, basic justice and fundamental morality in the world. It is also certainly not the only case of a US ally, or "ally" doing things that are contrary to civilized norms and decent behavior. It is quite understandable, and arguably even essential, that the Congress act to reverse or at least revise the blind-eye denial of President Trump, but there needs to be a clearer and more developed rationale for the US making a more extreme response than usual, in this particular case.
That rationale probably exists and I doubt that Trump is capable of even grasping it, let alone articulating it. But, it is also not set forth in this column. Having leverage, and being able to use it, is a Trumpian 'might makes right" kind of argument. It is pragmatic, and even wise perhaps, but not persuasive as an ethical justification.
4
Thanks MBS, you have shown the real face of your Kingdom.
3
Is it part of human nature that, following the almost week-long tribute to a deceased president, we can pigeonhole the Saudis into ammunition buyers like Trump does? Bush 41 was close to the Saudi royals and that gave Bush 43 his entree, but 9/11 still saw the only plane allowed to fly out of the United States was one carrying Saudi royals and dignitaries. But did we forgive all that murder and mayhem and destruction and lifelong injuries for some for the sake of oil? And as Nic Kristof asserts, the Saudi military is unable to defeat tiny Yemen although succeeding at killing thousands of its children and destroying an economy and infrastructure that we should be held responsible for restoring. Shame is our new mantra.
10
I am so glad you are not my neighbor, dear Mr. Kristof. You would praise me keeping my garden clean and keeping my garbage cans out of sight, but you’d also complain about how I raise my children or how I treat my wife. And you would not complain about it just in private, or to me. No, you would try and convince my wife and children in my home that their father was not doing it right.
And even though deep down I would see you are right in your criticism and that I would want to improve, I would not want to admit it because the only way out you give me is to lose face. And so I would become defensive and point out that America, even after having been a democracy for centuries, still managed to put dictators in place in other countries, sell them weapons of mass destruction, destabilized whole regions causing the death of hundreds of thousands of people, and allow corruption and voter suppression to spread at home.
So Mr. Kristof, rather than being eager to cast the first stone, why don’t you first clean up your home? The best way for anybody to help anyone else is not finger-wagging, but rather to set the example, to actually be the shining city on the hill, and give others the time to follow your example.
5
I contend we don't "need" Saudi oil now, any more than a bald man needs little dab of Brylcreem. Until Trump, we were actually making progress toward a renewable energy predominant nation.
Trump is so personally invested in the idea of multiplying his fortune by cozying up to the Saud family that he is blind, deaf and mute to their disgusting reign and the possibility that what is a gold mine for him is a toxic cesspool for America's traditional values and interests.
The cost of ceasing the purchase of oil from Saudi Arabia is offset by the rise in the esteem which our true allies would hold us. If it's not already too late.
5
Our cooperation with Saudis in the Oil business for nearly a century was mutually beneficial. They also imported any and every gadget, along with their operators, mostly from us. We kept aloof from their religiosity, jurisprudence and sectarian conflicts.
Saudi rulers used to brag that their legitimacy was Ebon Saud’s sword which founded the Kingdom. During Iraq War – 1, it was the American G.I.s of both sexes who saved the Kingdom and its assets from Saddam Hussein. Iraq War-II’s unintended side effect was the strengthening of “Shea” power in the Arab World.
Nicholas Kristof has brilliantly captured the promises and contradictions of the Saudi society. But his “leverage” is just another word for what others called “pragmatism, opportunity or transactional”! As Saudi’s cheap oil and bank reserves fall and sectarian conflicts increase, “our Leverage” also necessarily weakens. Besides, coups are common in the region and arms fall into the wrong hands.
1
Mr Kristof may be entirely correct about Saudi Arabia and its leaders. But why go there to ask people about it if you are then going to argue with them? Surely the point of journalism is to obtain new information. And why ask them about their prince (possibly placing them in danger if they are not sufficiently discreet) if you are already certain that he is "mad and murderous"?
1
"President Trump and Jared Kushner have placed their bets on the prince"
Translation: "Bin Salman has bought off, and simply bought, these two utterly immoral, self-dealing crooks""
14
It is utterly outrageous that Kushner was advising Mr. Bone Saw on how to handle America's outrage over his grisly murder of Washington Post reporter Khashoggi.
So Kushner must owe MBS a fortune. You just don't condone torture and dismemberment a human being after one night of drinking together.
11
The guy is basically reckless, authoritarian, murderous and incompetent, and has more money than God. So, of course Trump loves him and will stick by him to the bitter end, until he doesn't.
Follow the money, it's what he does.
6
You are correct Mr Kristof. Every bullet shot into a Yemeni child, that was made in USA, every human dying of starvation while we bomb their shelters, make us complicit in the action. MY taxes support that action. I am also responsible for the destruction of a country and their people. Perhaps I will not pay next year's bill........
6
we do not need Saudi oil. Europe is much more dependent on it as is Japan. We now have the world's largest reserves. And our alliance with the Saudis along with our boycott and sanctions on Iranian oil are part of the strategy to isolate Iran economically. A long term bad bet in my view.
4
And you really expected to get accurate answers? Here in the US we don't have such a government, yet many won't answer any of these sorts of questions honestly. Why would anybody bother to ask???
2
Public relations aside (You were traveling with a group just exiting Yemen), but not pushing the familial angle of Khashoggi aside, it is a rather awkward situation to begin with as there is no corpus dilecti. We, the public, must rely on totally circumstantial inferences, and have to eschew the thought of event-specific evidence. Without delving into personality too much, it might be safe to say that the Crown Prince has big plans for the Arabian penninsula, which he does not wish to see interrupted. Yemen under control other than KSA is not an alternative for him, hence the brutal war. The authoritarian, absolutist state, which relies on absolute secrecy diplomatically and otherwise wishes to continue to be poised to achieve hegemony in the middle east; if Russia can aid it in this perhaps so much the better, witness the kinship of big oil, not necessarily the same type of state. Another Khashoggi, Emad, built the Chateau Louis XIV and sold it to the Crown Prince. $300million. That's the picture. Perhaps he wishes to marry a Bourbon and try to re-establish the monarchy. Who knows!? Those big plans are of immense appeal to the perhaps equally authoritarian Trump and Kushner, whose penchant for capital concentration and economic expansion is quite evident. Now the KSA can't defeat the militia, but it is still a question as to whether or not they exploded a nuclear device there. The Senate should be mindful of a full-blown confrontation with the RF. This is malign history.
1
Remember the original golden rule not the current one of "he who has the gold makes the rules". Rather, ask yourself how you would feel if your loved one was killed by Mr. Bone Saw and your President was making excused for supporting the perpetrators. Those amoral people, like Trump, who don't care about a journalist's life because they stand to make a buck are simply sociopaths.
6
The author's assertion that Trump is only supporting the Saudi leader in hope of future business gains is typical of the tendency of journalism in this country to sink towards mind reading the internal thoughts and motivations rather than sticking to facts. As Scott Adams has pointed out, it is just as likely that the support is based on preserving all of our options and obtaining leverage for concessions towards a peace settlement in the Middle East.
1
@Jack
Disagree. The record tends to elucidate the Trump insouciance when it comes to anything other than Capital gains. Recall the incident of Trump, without any proof whatsoever, responding to news photos of young children supposedly being the victims of a poison gas attack in Syria attributable to the Assad regime, firing off a battery of missiles at a Syrian airbase. Who gains? Why, Trump the humanitarian, of course. The idea of regime change in Syria, which is really part of Trump's motivation, so that Iran could be conquered, is the raison d'etre, a show of force, with more to come. Remember, "The House That Jack Built" premiers this month in a theatre near you.
1
Love the "Cabinet of Dr. Caligari" photo at the top of this story. It appropriately sets the scene for the weirdness that is MBS.
1
Even though that you came with bad initiations I am glad that you seen the real truth about Saudi Arabia. Here, you can see the change and the love of the Crown Prince. 70% of Saudis are under 32 and of course MbS share with us the dreams and goals for a great future of Saudi Arabia.
All of the people you met or will meet.. will tell you the same. Women been giving their rights in driving cars, working and more. The youth are happy and so ready for this change that Crown Prince has brought and more to come.
I hope people don't mix things up. What's happening in Yemen is very sad but why people wants to stop helping Saudi Arabia ? In Yemen we are facing Iran the threat for all of us.
Come and learn about Saudi Arabia if you have negative standpoint on our country please
If you think Saudi Arabia can achieve greatness while being ruled by a man who will have you imprisoned or killed for disagreeing with him then you have a lot to learn about what makes a country great.
8
SA is a terrorist state. They attacked us on 9/11. They export a vile interpretation of Islam that has destabilized the region. We would be better off throwing our lot in with Iran and confronting SA then our current situation.
12
"a bold leader trying to modernize the economy."? Or more likely a bold leader looking to modernize his ruthless autocratic power - just as China has done in their so called modernization to paper over with cash their modernization of their ruthlessness diversification.
I'm glad you felt safe while in Riyadh, but so did Khashoggi in a Saudi consulate in Turkey. Indeed, I admire your bravery, but you are not reasonably safe anywhere from the likes of the mad prince backed by the unaccountable toxic-prez that manipulates our country. Indeed, are former US Ambassadors safe from being sent back to Russia, or a Turkish clergy safe from getting sent back to Erdogan? Just because men can be chauffeured by a woman driver.
Officials are not as open - like the current GOP - when they are ruled under an authoritarian regime. They've no choice but to conflate nationalism with a love for their leader.
For the sake of stability of a dictatorial murderous and Putin high-fiving mad prince, stability of war and starvation in Yemen, stability of an ostracized American ally in Qatar, and stability of trump-Jared business deals we must stand by MBS and Saudi Arabia? Not on my taxes and values we don't!
"The Saudis have treated us like body guards" while Israel does the same while having us pay for it to subjugate, demolish homes and kill Palestinians as Saudis subjugate, demolish homes and kill Yemenis. At least the Saudi's pay us - actually, pay trump - for the privilege. Sickeningly sad.
3
MBS is a criminal, period.
Among the former ministers and princes MBS put first in the Ritz and later who-knows-where is my friend Amr Al Dabbagh, who was the former minister of the Saudi Arabia General Investment Authority and CEO of a large family-owned business. Amr is a very good man who tried hard to bring good to his country and who started an important philanthropy. He's got 5 kids and is still in detention. He's been tortured. It's my hope that MBS crashes and burns and that the people he's hurt and is hurting regain their freedom.
8
I so appreciate the courage of Nick's journalism here, and agree with the position that we need to stop supporting the Saudi war in Yemen. I have also begun to wonder if we are on the right side when we (the U.S.) stand against Iran. In many ways their society is more modern than the Saudi's and when we were negotiating with Iran, it seemed there was a chance for better a relationship between our two countries. I regret the Trump administration's decision to pull out of the nuclear agreement. I would like to see more opportunity for agreement in the Middle East among those nations who now use us as their proxies in wars we have no business engaging in anymore. If there is hope for peace in that part of the world, it seems like it could start with us taking our soldiers and weapons out of the game, allowing the people to find some peaceful resolution to their differences.
5
MBS supports women driving. That is all we need to know. All else positive will flow from that. A few bones are sawed on the way to modernity is a reasonable price to pay. I suppose they should lay off the Yemen thing.
3
One hand gives the other takes it
away. women got freedom to drive
but they can't demand freedom.
MBS decides, not the women. Before
Kashoggi, hundreds have been
murdered not only by MBS but his
predecssors. Judicial process is opaque, there is hardly any due
process or habeas corpus. Grab
anyone who raises any criticism
of the ruler. If he /she lucky can
get away with beating and other
torture, otherwise the neck gets
chopped. MBS is a despot: he detained
hundreds of royal family members
in power struggle and also the prime
minister of Lebanon. He doesn't
care what others think knowing that
money matters and is the only thing
world cares about. Human rights are
the nice slogan but it gets trumped
(no pun intended) by money.Saudis
also serve a useful purpose of buying arms and cycling their money through
our big banks. Remember when Citi bank was in trouble, prince Al Waleed injected money into the bank. It also
helps in destabilizing Middle East
by keeping the region in chaos.
4
In short: Being civilized isn't what it's cracked up to be.
Take my word for it there's nothing 'modern' about the art installation shown at the lead to this article and whatever does that have to do with a police state?
3
Great Nick. A voice for civilization and decency, instead of business at any price...
1
"Bravo to the U.S. Senate for its historic votes to hold M.B.S. accountable for Khashoggi’s murder and to end support for the Saudi-led war in Yemen. Saudi officials are paying very close attention."
We've come to expect so little from the dominated Trump-Republican senate, that even small gestures of humanity grab headlines.
Sorry, this was a non-binding vote going nowhere. In fact grandstanders like Lindsey Graham refrained from even casting a formal vote. My Idaho senators, Reich and Crapo, disgraced Idahoans with their cowardly and inhumane 'nay' votes.
6
I've had students from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Middle East, along with Mainland China and Taiwan, among other places. I never ask the Saudi students about their government because it puts them in an awkward place, even if we are informally chit-chatting. Same with the Chinese students, beyond sometimes asking how they get along with each other based on whether they are from Taiwan or the mainland. For the most part, they don't care on a one-to-one level. It's not my job to "enlighten" them in anyway beyond my classroom responsibilities.
2
If it were up to me, the Saudis would still be living in tents in the desert instead of palatial mansions in the south of Spain, riding camels across the Sinai instead of driving around the streets of London and New York in Lamborghinis and Ferraris, fighting endless tribal wars with... No wait, that’s just what they are doing, with our help, killing innocent men, women and children, something they have done for centuries on their own, but now with weapons (weapons of mass destruction) we supply, or let’s say, the military-industrial complex, all for a bucket of oil, blood for oil, and money in the pockets of the Koch Brothers and other industrialists.
9
The Middle Eastern peoples live in their zoos and we live, unaware, in ours. What is actually more troubling to America's future?
(A) that America's current leaders fixate our attentions on the political/heartfelt meanings ("Death to America") or
(B) that America's current First Responders of Conscience fixate our attentions on each zoo people's lack of progress.
Answer: It doesn't matter because America's diplomatic mission is run by an Islamophobe (Mike Pompeo), a Hawk (John Bolton), and a Tactical Insider (the President's son-in-law). These figureheads are acting to reassert America's posture as unilaterally dominant in region's economies and military control.
Last week's nomination of a Fox News anchor to be our UN Ambassador attests to how close John Bolton is to succeeding at completely detaching the United States from the primary international body established for conflict resolution.
Now that a particular ally has achieved some one-sided goals and that our party-in-power is politically on-the-ropes, Americans need to be conscious to the prospect of misguided reactions and entrenchment due to an attack (and that a red flag operation is not only possible, but probable).
2
Add to all of the information written here a Jared tale. The Middle East was going to be his baby. He would use his connections to promote peace at last with some of the region's major power players, a prize that has eluded better people. Who knows maybe he will pull a rabbit out of a hat. A stern castigating of MBS over the phone should do the trick, don't you think?
Unfortunately for Jared, the machinery at the State Department has been hobbled by his father in-law. His inexperience in such undertakings didn't help. No easy task, just ask the French, Turks or Brits how well things played out for them. They drew the map we are stuck with. At least Israel has their capital. That didn't ruffle any feathers in the region, did it?
2
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Mr. Kristof for saying, "I suspect the real reason Trump and Kushner embrace M.B.S., aside from the hope that he will back their Middle East peace plan, is business: the belief that Saudis will invest in their personal real estate projects for decades to come."
I have been saying this right from the start. As long as Trump holds out hope of more of his gilded palaces being built (financed by others as usual), he will support anyone who still has money to give.
Starving children, foreign policy, human rights? Not on the bullet point list for today (or ever).
6
There's a strange part of this story that has yet to answered. That is why now?
All the conduct that we now ascribe to the Saudi's has been going on for years. Their export of terrorism, their interference with their neighbors, including past invasions, their funding of Al Qaida and then ISIS, their repression of women, gays and non-Sunni Muslim's and their execution of opposition voices, including at least one other journalist.
The NYTimes has spent the last two years telling us what a great reformer MBS is but has now suddenly turned and caste him as a villain who has to go. Why the very sudden switch?
And why have some, though not all security elements in the US government taken the same approach?
I have my own theories, but I offer this comment to see what other readers think.
And think we must. Otherwise this journalistic slight of hand might have passed unnoticed.
3
How is jared "woody woodpecker" kushner involved in ANYTHING??? He should be in prison, much less wandering around with a security clearance defiling our foreign policy.
4
Our President will not use his leverage as his spirit animal is a lemming. He's running the Country right over the cliff.
8
Last I checked, the murder of another is a punishable crime in Saudi Arabia, as well as in the Koran, no matter the status of the murderer. Or did I get it wrong?
7
It would be interesting to know what your informants think of Trump.
1
Obama launched a completely unnecessary and unprovoked war against Libya which resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, and led to the cold blooded murders of Khadaffi and at least one of his sons. Khadaffi was a bad guy, but he should have been tried, not just murdered as occurred.
When will Obama be held accountable? Until that time, we have no say in how the Prince of Saud acts.
1
@Jonathan E. Grant It was the Libyan people that killed Khadafy not Obama. It was also Kadafy that ordered the murder of US citizens on the Pan Am attack. It is not our responsibility nor Obama's on how the Libyan people meet out justice.
5
The US does have leverage over Saudi Arabia but the wrong people are calling the shots. Neither Trump nor Kushner realize they are being played like puppets by the Saudis, Russians, North Koreans and others.
4
I've read some of the comments below. Dear fellow writers, I lived in Saudi for 5 years in the eighties, and believe me, no one can talk about Saudi unless you have lived there. no way, especially a woman.
As an American woman, married to a Greek, working unlawfully for a contractor for the Saudi Oil Ministry, none of you will never know how it is to live there. No way. .. ever!
Completely, awfully oppressive compared to here.
I've said this before, and I say it again, Saudi and a lot of the Middle East peoples are still tribal. No problem with that, we get tribal here in the US too. But just always remember that part of it.
Moving on, wean ourselves off of their oil, completely remove ourselves out of the Middle East and only do humanitarian aid from now on. Let's see what happens.
264
When the president of the United States proclaims the press as 'enemies of the state', it really shouldn't be surprising that an emerging leader like MBS would take that as permission to act accordingly.
Since our current leader will not 'rise' to the occasion with an articulate expression of support for the importance of a free press, congress fills the role of feigning outrage. In the meantime, they've supported invasions killing hundreds of thousands of innocents and will soon be celebrating the loss of healthcare for its citizens. We need to start focusing on our own accountability.
7
Impunity seems so self-evident that the Crown Prince’s henchmen took the risk that even if Khashoggi’s killing came to light, the consequences would be minor. They were right: although Saudi prosecutors are seeking death penalty for five of the suspects, the international response has so far been tepid, despite global outrage.
Most leaders have only promised to “consider” sanctions against Riyadh; others have been indifferent. Trump said despite circumstances, he has no intention to condemn MBS, or curb arms sales.
The UAE, Egypt, and Bahrain rally behind MBS, who hires Western consulting firms, like McKinsey and PR spin doctors to fix his image. Meanwhile an army of online trolls defend him and smear critics. As long as MBS gets away with murder, his young supporters at home, smitten by his reform programme, Vision 2030, will see him as invincible. We may be seeing more cruelty from him in the future.
101
@J. von Hettlingen . I am reminded of the Trump claim that he shoot somebody in broad daylight in Times Square and suffer no consequences. Providing some confidence and inspiration perhaps for Mr Bone Saw?
20
@J. von HettlingenPity the underlings who killed at MBS directions.
13
The U.S. should make it clear that it will not work with MBS; but do not make the same error like like in other cases. Who should replace MBS? Figure that out first. If it is the same people in among the Saudi elites who funded the global jihad and resent the social and economic reforms introduced by MBS then we will have a civil war in Saudi Arabia. I wonder if his crimes can be used as a means to force him to cooperate in bringing end to civil war in Yemen. Saudis have been stopping their Yemeni allies from going for pace talks. There has been some progress recently with limited ceasefire to help international relief effort.
27
AK: "Who should replace MBS? Figure that out first." Or, maybe we shouldn't have to figure out who is going to rule Saudi Arabia. We would be a lot better off today if we hadn't taken on the responsibility of figuring out who was going to rule Iraq and Afghanistan, without any great success. We have been maintaining the House of Saud for a long time now, and the relationship has corrupted us both so deeply we hardly recognize the corruption. There might be a way to end it, but it won't be easy.
46
I suspect our support of the Saudis will have an outcome similar to that of the Shah of Iran. The US supported the Shah by toppling a democratically elected government, sold the Shah military hardware and trained SAVAK.
The Shah could not stay in power but for SAVAK. Yet, when dissent was so widespread, SAVAK refused to fire on their own brothers and sisters.
Will history judge that the chaos and cost to US economic and strategic interests have been greater had we not interferred in Iran at all?
Are we repeating the same mistake by blindly supporting MBS?
The Senate vote this past week surely would suggest that.
6
I think that "allowing" women do drive opens up a pandora's box for MBS and his ilk that few appreciate. Mobility equals freedom to see and to network, and from having conversations surveiled. It gives women a chance to experience some of the independence that western women have. I think that more freedom of movement will lead to more freedom to think and critique, and ultimately, to act.
Other countries in the Middle East (Afghanastan, Iraq, Iran) have granted women more freedoms and have taken them away, so the danger is there.
Were I a Saudi woman, I would begin my escape plan today.
112
@Sharon. While you are correct in that having mobility does open women up to experiences and may lead to "consequences" I am commenting on what you said about having an "escape plan". In reality there is no escape plan possible for a Saudi woman due to the law of Guardianship. Under Saudi law ALL women must have a guardian who is always male... whether father,husband, uncle,brother or son. And this person controls the right for a woman to travel or obtain a passport and until 2017 even obtain health care at a hospital. Dina Ali, a 24 yr old Saudi woman was last photographed in April 2017 talking with two men with her suitcase nearby. Most likely she is now dead. Just this autumn two young Saudi sisters were found dead in Hudson River. They allegedly committed suicide after running away from their family home in Virginia to avoid returning back to Saudi. So even if one is not in Saudi Arabia, escape is near impossible for a Saudi woman. We here in the States are truly fortunate.
37
@Sharon I would too. For all of the problems in the United States, I'm thankful that I was born here and have had choices and relative freedom.
15
"Were I a Saudi woman, I would begin my escape plan today."
Although I completely agree with your sentiment and good intention, to escape one's country is hard. It's even harder, if not impossible, if you're a woman, living in a misogynist country.
22
The United States has the leverage with Saudi Arabia; tragically, though, the wrong man has his hands on the lever. The resolution by the Senate placing the blame on MBS for the murder is the beginning of what may be the application of a steady pressure to affect a change which will align with our core moral beliefs. The next step must be an unstoppable congressional mandate to stop supplying the means by which death and destruction is caused to rain down upon the innocents in Yemen.
176
Meanwhile, the US will simply continue its own rain of death.
"Morality" has no meaning to a US government that has itself murdered hundreds of thousands, without assisting Saudi Arabia.
12
@Daniel K. Statnekov. I guess you are unaware of the consequences of what you are espousing. Do you want them to have closer ties to Russia? Do you want higher oil prices?
2
@Daniel K. Statnekov What leverage? Anything we provide in the way of stuff can be obtained elsewhere. They have investments in the US that they could sell or downsize. Why would anybody want to meddle in the internal affairs of other countries when doing so is against our interests?
5
It’s scary how this story has a longer shelf life than a Hostess Twinkie.
2
@John Doe France murdered a member of Greenpeace, and we said nothing. Why should we then care who the Saudis murder? We also murdered a lot of Libyans in Obama's undeclared war against Libya.
2
It would be refreshing if Mr. Kristof could point to a single example of an Arab Muslim nation that is successfully embracing a western liberal democrat value system. Alternatively, it would be even more refreshing if he might ponder why there are none.
6
It is beyond doubt that the real reason for the America’s continued support of a Saudi regime headed by a murderous Crown Prince is the self-interest of Donald Trump, Jared Kushner and the real estate businesses of the extended Trump family.
The Trump/Kushner partnership seeks “investment” by the House of Saud – a polite word to describe accepting Saudi bribery by infusion of cash in Trump properties here and abroad. The Trump family has done or attempted to do essentially the same thing with Russia in the Moscow area, South Florida and elsewhere.
The tail is wagging the dog. As Nicholas Kristof points out, not only is the blood-thirsty Crown Prince incompetent in managing the Saudi oil-extraction business, America needs the Saudi product less and less every day.
By our cruel adventure in Yemen, we permit Saudi Arabia to destabilize the entire region, and we sully what’s left internationally of the American reputation for mercy and fairness.
In 2016 Barack Obama refused to sell the sophisticated targeting hardware and software demanded by the Saudi leaders for Yemen, after going along in 2015 with the program initiated by George W. Bush.
Now, Donald Trump wants to go all-in for the Prince, and he tries to blame it on Obama.
4
People seem to be forgetting the third thing that MbS screwed up. #1 is Yemen, supposed to be over in months. #2 is Syria, Assad got Russian support and refused to fall, all MbS did was prolong the pain and death.
#3 was his effort to destroy the North American fracking industry. He plunged the price of oil back in 2014 (remember over $100/bbl?) leading to hundreds of thousands of jobs lost in our oil industry. (Over 120,000 so far in my native Alberta, Canada.) Job losses that high lead to a spike in suicide rates, by the way, he arguably has blood on his hands even over here.
And he failed at that, too. It was all pointless pain and suffering. The frackers shuttered a lot of wells, but most of them hung on to solvency and indeed learned new economies and even greater technology improvements.
But if you want a deliberate, state-level plan to destroy an American industry and throw a million people out of work, don't look to Mexican farmers or Chinese factories: MbS was your economic enemy all along.
Lastly, did Tom Friedman give a writing class here? " You feel a dynamism on the ground in Riyadh" ... from what, your taxi driver? I'm incredibly suspicious of pundits who claim they "Feel" things by just walking around. My mom visited South Africa in the mid 1970s and came back talking about how the streets were so full of happy, lively, carefree-seeming black people.
3
A difficult column to write and to get right because of the ambiguities and contradictions that exist. The modernization of Saudi Arabia is, if it is the start of real progress and not a thrown bone or a fig leaf, important. One has to wonder however whether "MBS" is standing up to the Wahhabis who are the real "state sponsored terrorists" (as opposed to Iran- the official American and Israeli bogeyman), or if he has made a deal with them.
Assuming the more favorable option it then becomes a question of whether that trumps the fact that the rule of law and human rights are as far away as ever in this American ally of convenience and whether the cynicism of supporting this repressive dictatorship is worth the price we pay as a nation in our own collective conscience. The question is especially fraught given our lessened dependence on Saudi oil.
It seems unlikely in any case that the United States really has much leverage and the Saudis will do what they deem is in their (the ruling family's) interest regardless of what we do or say. No real good answer for a clear foreign policy and very much like Obama's bet on Iran.
Saudis behead people for Sorcery.
Wahhabism is the biggest influence for terrorism in the world.
Saudi Arabia is the home and center of Wahhabism.
Thousands will die of starvation in Yemen.
Soy beans are rotting in bins in America.
Is this really the 21st century?
7
Everything he touches, he breaks. This really sums up the sociopathic, narcissistic behavior we see on all levels of society today. Thank you for not mincing words.
2
So much storm und orang over nothing ...
This is 2018, not 1974. Fact is, from a US point of view, right now...
Saudi Arabia doesn't matter.
Israel doesn't matter.
Iran doesn't matter.
Iraq (our puppet) doesn't matter.
Why do we continue to tie ourselves into knots for tiny actors who do not matter on the global stage?
3
Wow, women can drive in the 21st century! Thoroughly Modern Moslems!
Does bringing his monarchy (harkening back to the 13th century) into modernity rely on a single person? Only MBS can do it? Aren’t there economic and market forces which will shape he “Kingdom’s” economic future?
Here is reality: Saudi Arabia depends on the US for it stability and existence. Not merely our arms sales, but our logistical support. Our propping up of their oil economy.
Ok, we have an interest in fostering a diverse, modern, stable Middle East and Saudi Arabia. We can help. But does that mean we must support a power crazied murderer? We must look the other way to human rights abuses, genocidal war, murder and power hungry greed?
The current occupant of the White House says “of course we should, that is reality.”
We should pursue a saner reality. (Btw, both here and in the desert).
3
I agree with most of the comments about the corruption, cynicism, and murdering evil of Saudi Arabia, and of Trump's stupid and destructive support of this and similar regimes.
This is terrible not only for the USA (where I am a native born Jewish atheist citizen) but for our entire Homo sapiens species, which faces an existential threat of species suicide.
1
Senior Saudis privately accept that M.B.S. ordered Khashoggi’s death but insist that the Saudi-U.S. relationship is more important than one man’s life.
How about two lives? Ten? Senior Saudis such as these aren't on a slippery slope, they've diving headfirst into a bottomless pit.
3
I'd like to hear David Sanger's thoughts on this essay.
2
I am disgusted by the fact that my country continues to climb into bed with corrupt, authoritarian governments throughout the world. And then, when those governments do something heinous, apologists in and out of government try to rationalize our continuing support.
Isn't it past time for us to try to live up to the ideals we profess? Instead of coming across as a bunch of lying hypocrites?
3
And, Mr. Kristoff, not one mention of 9/11. Why?
Here's a recent article in Newsweek about the silence:
https://www.newsweek.com/cia-and-saudi-arabia-conspired-keep-911-details-secret-new-book-says-1091935
My assumption is: No one hides nothing. If you have nothing to hide you don't hide anything. If the Saudis, with the CIA's help, work to hide their role in 9/11 then they had a role in 9/11. The core principle of US policy regarding Saudi Arabia is: assume the Saudis had a major role in 9/11. They are all complicit in it (like all Nazis were complicit in the Holocaust).
The Saudi Arabian government should have ceased to exist on 9/12.
7
Hats off to the NYT for not allowing the MBS situation to drift off into obscurity. A quick google search revealed that the last story the Wall St Journal did was 11/17, the Washington Examiner, 10/12, and the NY Post 11/22. All I am saying is, you tell me "what's goin on, I'll tell you what's goin on, then we'll both know what's goin on."
2
The fact that Jared was serving as the Olivia Pope for MBS says it all. Real estate is the goal for Trump and his family. Crossing my fingers that Congress decides that they are willing to stand up to this White House of crooks.
3
I haven’t forgotten that most of the 9-11 hijackers were Saudis.
7
What's more pathetic than Saudi Arabia's "mad murderous crown prince" is the support that country gets from the western world!
When the day comes that the world no longer needs their oil (and with alternative energy it's, hopefully, sooner than later) they will shrink to being as insignificant and bankrupt as their culture!
5
MBS is safe until he loses Netanyahu, which isn't about to happen.
3
The most memorable statement I've heard.....Saudi Arabia is what happens when Isis is successful.
3
It always amuses me how Trump and Kushner embrace strong men. One's a draft-dodger and can't even walk the length of a golf course without collapsing and the other looks like he couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. The only thing lacking in these strong-men wannabes is the comic opera uniform, garnished with medals and enormous epaulets.
4
Face it. Many people have decided that murder is ok, especially when they are not (in their own mind) directly affected.
Sandy Hook
Columbine
Parkland
Las Vegas
Charleston
Sutherland Springs
Pittsburgh
Let's not pretend that Saudi's are any different from ourselves....
Happy Holidays....
6
And then of course there's the awkward business of 9/11.
7
We are judged by the company we keep & the company that Trump keeps has an odorous stink to it.Our affiliation with the Crown Prince is an embarrassment to what we are supposed to stand for.The Global pollution deniers led by Trump, has brought us to a new low.There is a solution, and that is a clean sweep of Trump & his followers in 2020.Not only will we get out of the swamp, but so will the world.
1
Kristof grew up in a liberal democracy not some ancient illiberal tribal system. In liberal democracies all people have rights which cannot be taken from them without due process of law determined in courts with independent judiciaries. In any tribal system, no individual has any rights not given by the tribe and the tribe can do to any individual whatever it likes. The Saudi people live in a tribal system as old as the Bible. They see freedom to do as they want as a gift not a right.
2
I was appalled by the superior and erroneous tone of the article. There are words/phrases such as: police state, penchant for starving children, torturing women or dismembering critics, mad prince, Mr. Bone Saw, murderer, starved Yemeni children, undermined the interest of Saudi Arabia, reckless, oppressive, and brutal.
The article also grossly simplifies complex state and international relations and hence misinforms and misleads its readers; “Saudi Arabia’s armed forces can’t even defeat a militia in Yemen, so how could they stand up to Iran?” If one believes that, he also believes: America’s armed forces couldn’t even defeat a militia (Taliban) in Afghanistan for more than ten years, so how could it stand up to North Korea or Russia or any army?
Mr. Kristof, sir, may I suggest an advice to you? Please sir, don’t throw your morals on us. We’ve been around for thousands of years. King Salman and the Crown Prince Muhammad have been trained on governing since they were children. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia will prosperously be around for years to come; that’s a promise.
1
Good afternoon Mr. Kristof,
You were doing well until this paragraph:
"To which my answer is: The problem is not only that M.B.S. is a murderer, but also that he has destabilized the region, starved Yemeni children and undermined the interests of Saudi Arabia and the United States alike. Everything he touches, he breaks."
1. Almost all of the countries in the middle east cannot handle democracy at this time. They are only stable by "iron-man" tactics at some level.
2. Using a Western Value system to judge a non-Western country is fool hardy, arrogant, and is littered with failure.
3. The Houthis without Iran are a tribe incapable of sustained war with missiles to boot. Iran is at the heart of the Yemeni conflict and its tragedies.
4. We share interests with Saudi, but not a value system. Should we disengage with every country that kills off someone in a morally reprehensible fashion? If that is our policy, we would have no more international relationships.
5. We should use this situation to leverage for the good that we can do going forward, not cut off our noses to spite our faces moving backwards.
Good day, sir!
1
I can not and will not try to justify the horrific and premeditated murder of Mr. Khashoggi and the death and ruinous destruction of Yemen because it might jeopardize an economic relationship with Saudi Arabia. And I completely understand how perilous it might be for Saudi citizens to speak out against their government.
But we are citizens of the United States. We can, should, and must speak out against our government if they chose to cozy up to murders and other authoritarian governments who see no crime in the killing of their own populace.
We must always remind and demand from our elected officials that our ideals of Human Rights and Justice are what makes America Great and that our country is not for sale.
1
We need a new president who will be prepared to break diplomatic, military and commercial relations with Saudi Arabia if the Gangster Prince stays in power.
If they want to maintain anything like the current relations then he needs to be arrested, tried, convicted and executed. If he is removed from power but not punished we could maintain rather cool relations.
This new president should state clearly that the Gangster Prince is going down. The question is whether he will bring the entire Saudi ruling family down with him.
In the name Saudi Arabia the Saudi part refers to the fact that the entire country belongs to the Saud family. No doubt Trump would like our country to belong to his family but this sort of thing is utterly un-American!
I do not disagree with you Nicolas, but I still do not understand why the Houthi/Iran leadership is more attractive to the Yemeni civilian than food. Maybe the civilian is simply a pawn who has no way to express nor implement their own preference for food over regime change, but this has not been explored or explained by journalists. What is the deal? Personally I would give up the civil war and let the former regime survive before I would let my kids die of starvation. Please explain.
1
Why can't the Saud's at least make a gesture by replacing the prince? They've hundreds of them, after all.
1
Just 4 days ago, 4 people were murdered and 13 wounded by a terrorist at the Strasbourg, France Christmas market (a Christmas market in operation since 1570). Strasbourg joins a list of what seems like an undending list of cities forever scared by jihadi terrorists. 4 more innocent lives taken, 17 more victims added to far too long a list. The terrorist was an ISIS supporter. Saudi Wahhabism is the ideological foundation for Al Qaeda and ISIS. The terrorist had no connection to Iran or to Muslim Brotherhood.
There is no worse form of Islam than Wahhabism. The theocratic thugs who run Iran, Iran’s support for Houthi rebels in Yemen and their portion of war crimes and humanitarian disaster (most of it is created by US-backed Saudi Arabia and MBS), Iran’s support for butcher Assad in Syria, for Iran’s support Hezbollah - all should be fully condemned and challenged. But it is petrodollar fueled spread of Wahhabi poison that gave us Bin Laden, 15 of 19 9/11 terrorists, Taliban, ideological foundation for Al Qaeda and ISIS. Saudi Arabia/MBS, Trump, Netanyahu blaming Iran, Qatar, Muslim Brotherhood for the global jihadi terrorism from 9/11 (and few years before) to Strasbourg few days ago is pure diversion and a complete lie.
Real reform is Saudi Arabia would be first acknowledging the global damage done by Wahhabi poison and then banning Wahhabism.
Trump talks about taking on Radical Islam and Muslim Bans but supports Saudi Arabia whose Wahhabism fuels the worst jihadi terrorism.
5
Saudis do indeed starve Yemeni children, among other Yemenis, some of whom are likely the adults who have given birth to those children. What I mean is that the use of the word “children” in this context is cheap sentimentalism, entirely inappropriate in the context of mass murder.
1
And how about we pressure the Wahabists to end ANY back door support for extremist Sunni madrassas and jihadi groups that still terrorize large swaths of the Middle East, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Asia, and North and East Africa. How can we possibly forget that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi?
2
What I am learning lately gives fresh concern to the possibility that democracies could fall to tyrants. There is a strong desire, it appears, in a common human personality trait to be lead by a leader. These people, with authoritarian sensitivities, gravitate to strong leaders who, apparently, give added meaning to their lives.
I believe it can be explained by considering personality traits that would have been useful to cavemen. It's easy to see how loyalty would be of value, but also the tolerance of "controlled" difference of opinion. Diversity would enhance a tribe. Original thinkers are not allowed lead by the majority conformers, but sometimes their ideas are tolerated or even considered. Thinkers pay a price, however, as they are never considered to be normal people.
In a nutshell.
2
The history of US-KOA relations has been unrealistic for many years and with many US administrations. It is a fallacy that we are dependent on oil imports from the KSA-we haven't been for 30 years and today we export far more oil than we import from KSA. Every President and administration has got this wrong since at least Eisenhower. Trump may have commercial interests as Mr. Kristof alludes, but Trump seems to be no different in his stance than his predecessors, if anything, he is an order of magnitude more demanding than Obama, Clinton or either of the Bushes who were totally compliant or worse.
I agree that we should exert our leverage -with gusto.
Yes some reforms in Saudi were positive especially with women's rights. The Kingdom should realize that allowing half of their population to contribute to their economy would be a positive . The world would appreciate that Saudi plans to treat women in a civilized ,rational way and moving away from draconian religious police roaming the city with clubs looking for violators of outdated dogma. MSB plans to create a Dubai style city in Jeddah would open up Saudi to the realty of the world's economy as oil becomes less important part of their economy. The young population growing rapidly needs jobs in the modern tech economy as they see how the rest of the developed world has freedoms they yearn for. The problem of an erratic autocrat under 35 with a lack of maturity witness a journalist being murdered damaging Saudi's reputation in the world is becoming obvious witness the horror of the Yemen war. Prince Jared's support could be based on future financial benefits to the Trump family and that support could be transferred to a more moderate ruler.
The sooner we achieve a carbon-free economy, the sooner this type of fossil fueled dictators will lose their levers of power.
It's a win-win for humanity.
4
I'm glad you didn't quote something negative from Saudis, even anonymously. In a police state like this, they keep a tab of anyone who comes in touch with a foriegn journalist, even the hotel concierge you might have chatted with. And there will severe consequences for anything they find critical. The forensic expert who dismembered Mr. Khashoggi had a lot of practice, and they didn't have to kill the victims first.
3
So you asked people of Saudi Arabia about their mad, murderer Crown Prince about starving Yemeni children and Khashoggi (Who?). How could you even expect an honest answer? Why would they tell you anything negative about MBS? After all MBS has allowed women to drive, allowed them to go to the cinema! Besides, they could be flogged in full view of the public or murdered just like Khashoggi! If you found changes in Saudi Arabia that is a mirage. You moved 'freely' among Saudis asking questions. You moved freely among Saudis because you are an American but were the Saudis? That they did not give any personal opinion or were totally evasive indicates that Saudi Arabia is just a police state. The status quo has not changed except for some window-dressing of women driving. The Saudis could'nt care less about a country blown to smithereens by their cruel autocrats and children dying of malnutrition and starvation. Mr. Kristof, you were blindfolded the day you landed in Riyadh and you did not even known it!
2
@NNI I don't think you read the column very carefully. Seems clear that Mr. Kristoff was well aware that the Saudi citizens he spoke with felt rather constrained in what they could afford to say.
"Starved Yemeni children . . . ?"
Are their Saudis in Yemen determining who gets to eat, giving out food to the adults while denying it to the children?
Or are the Yemenis themselves letting their children starve while they get enough calories to subsist?
Why are all the photos showing children starving to death while the adults appear mostly well nourished?
Something's sick in Yemen, and it's the culture. In other cultures, the adults starve themselves so the children may eat.
Also, Yemen's population has quadrupled in the last half century. They were by far the poorest of the Arab countries fifty years ago. How's the population growth working out for them?
Love the story earlier this month about a Yemeni man with eight children who can afford to buy his khat while his youngest children starve to death.
It's a sick culture, period, but Kristof is too PC to mention that fact.
2
Newspaper column wonders about Trump and Kushner's embrace of M.B.S. and that it might have something to do with their business. In a saner world, nobody would care what Trump and Kushner thought about ANYTHING.
2
Mr. Kristof thank you for being our eyes and ears in Saudi Arabia.
3
What leverage does Nicholas think we the people (rather than"we" meaning part of the national war machine) have to stop the Unites States from producing, selling and using all these horrible weapons.
2
@Robert Roth I believe it's called voting. Please don't tell me there's no one to vote for. There is clearly an anti-war group within the Democratic Party and it's growing.
Join in! Likely it won't represent your position fully. Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
If American writers and readers showed, say, 1% as much concern when our leadership orders killings around the world this would be possible to take seriously. How many hundred civilians - not even people mixed up in world affairs, or enemies of the US - but flat out civilians were killed by drone strikes ordered by Obama?
No hand-wringing, no hysterical condemnation. Our allies didn't pretend Obama was a "mad, murderous president" or insist on upturning the world order to isolate us.
1
@Dan I don't know the answer to your question. Do you? You seem certain it was well over a hundred. That's civilians killed by drone strikes away from any battlefield. How do you claim to know this? Can you name them?
There are certainly important issues regarding our use of drones to kill folks. But I actually believe that most so killed were terrorists. We do have the right to defend ourselves. 9-11 ring any bells?
One can insist that such a program must avoid all non-terrorist casualties but that would severely limit it. Could that limitation end up making another 9-11 attack possible? I can't really tell and neither can you.
"I told her that I was delighted for her, but that it was difficult to celebrate while the prince also imprisons women’s rights leaders and reportedly has had four flogged, tortured and sexually harassed, with one attempting suicide as a result."
Boy, you got her alright. I guess she can now be considered "enlightened" by your presence. Maybe she was from the flyover part of her country.
"My most interesting interaction was with a group of young professionals who believe that I am getting it all wrong."
You can cast this as a Trumpian episode of some sort and that will get you mileage on the OP-ED pages. We've been working with the Saudis for decades. There's nothing new in the latest episode except for the fact that a US-based journalist was involved. For decades Khashoggi was close to the Saudi royal family and also served as an adviser to the government. Kristoff, you just might be getting it all wrong.
Put a pin in this issue along with trade and let's see how subsequent administrations handle it.
1
@Jp So if we've worked with the Saudis while they committed hidden murders (care to name some names?) there's no problem working with them when they commit murder in the open.
Could the Gangster Prince really think no one would know about Mr. Kashoggi's murder? I really can't see that. He thought it would be deniable and that it would put fear into anyone who disliked the Saudi regime. That was the point. Of course he also felt dissed by Mr. Kashoggi and reacted like the gangster he is.
1
"But modernity isn’t just about cappuccinos and iPhone apps; it’s also about human dignity and the rule of law."
Tell that to the average American...their answer: wait...what?!?!
The U.S. has no moral standing in the Middle East, or anywhere else. Yes, we believe in one god; it's the god of money/power.
We have the perfect president for our bent and twisted belief.
2
@james33 Said president is only supported by a minority of something like 40%. A lot higher than I'd like but very much a minority.
When you divide the world up into the good guys and the bad guys it never takes long to find some bad among the good. Not a reason to just give up which certainly seems to be what you are doing.
How can we as Americans possibly support a country that allows beheading people for some infraction by street minders on the spot? Make women wear full head to toe black gowns with slits for the eyes when in public while men dress in white (the pure color) or civilian clothes. (How do women drive safely in these costumes?). Tortures women and men for speaking their opinions? Spreads and teaches hate of all religions except their own, and perpetrated the worst terrorist attack in our history 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia? We do not need their oil or their influence. I applaud their willingness to help broker peace with the Palestinians. But until they change and join the modern civilized world we should not be helping them in anyway especially with military equipment and arms. The prince is a buffoon trying to murder with one had and “modernize” with the other. What SA needs is democracy not a 5,000 member monarchy. I sincerely doubt Americans feel strongly about keeping our present relationship with SA. I agree with Nicolas: let them go.
3
"Suspension of arms sales until . . . "?
We shouldn't be selling weapons to any of these knuckleheads. Ever. There's the money trail that needs to be followed.
1
Obviously, the starvation in Yemen must be ended and whatever moves the U.S. needs to take to achieve that particular ends should be considered and implemented. Where Khashoggi is concerned, what can we really do to punish the crown prince? We, the United States, kill thousands per year without recourse. What's the difference between bone saws and explosives? We've killed literally hundreds of thousands in Iraq - for what? We've initially set the stage for tens of thousands of deaths in Libya and Syria. How many have we killed in Afghanistan?
How, exactly, would we go about punishing the crown prince? And are we willing to go through the uncertainties of regime change to get him? Is that a smart move? What do we or the world get in the long run? It would be interesting if Mr. Kristof would write an article telling us exactly what should be done- within the confines of international law- to punish and remove the prince. Another article that would be interesting is to review historical cost benefits of U.S. meddling in the affairs of other nations.
Making comments like "Mr. Bone Saw," really isn't that funny - to anybody. And long diatribes about the rule of law and interfering in another county's leadership... Shouldn't we save that for Bush, Obama and the Clinton's. And why, when President Trump supports an intelligent policy of not meddling, do we have to tear him down at every single turn?
17
@Arthur Taylor It's not only about punishment, it's about our own self worth. Are we the kind of people who support such a thing? How is that we give a pass on this but lash out against Russia and NK when they do equivalent things? A firm stance is also about communicating that we will not look the other way, so think twice about it next time. And the "Mr. Bone Saw" satirical comment is well deserved, as such humor is the way our free society works.
24
@Arthur Taylor
It would not surprise me if Neville Chamberlain felt the same way when he allowed the annexation of the Sudentenland.
21
@Arthur Taylor I cannot believe that other than personal business interests that Mr. Trump supports anything that is intelligent in support of public welfare.
24
Thank you, Nicholas, for your courage in seeking the truth and in writing the truth as you are finding it. In these days, we cannnot take for granted that journalists are willing to do the difficult and courageous things it takes to investigate and to write about the darkness that underlies what is becoming known as the “transactional” view of human affairs.
You illuminate in this column a huge struggle - the tension between the desire for and the hope of technological, cultural, and economic progress and the foundational need not to subjugate bedrock human principles to that progress. It is so tempting to turn a blind eye to the depravity that often threatens to or actually does accompany bedazzlement by the promise of showy visible “progress.” This is not only the dilemma in Saudi Arabia, but also here in the U.S. and increasingly, around the world. How many bloody sacrifices is the world willing to accept in the name of a superficial show of improving only selected people’s lives?
@Karen Let the rest of the Saudi royal family know that they will lose all access to the US unless he is removed. We don't need them or their stinking, dirty money (or their oil).
They are corrupt and corrupting. We need to take charge and lay down the law to them. If they think they can survive without us let them try
Great analysis. It's ironic that Trump, who presents himself as both a savvy deal maker and an exemplar of toughness, approaches the relationship with Saudi Arabia from such a self-imposed position of weakness. If this is a transaction, we can demand a lot more from the other side -- including on Yemen and internal human rights -- before they would come close to walking away. Why are we leaving so much on the table?
1
The press in the U.S. seemingly has forgotten that the war in Yemen is a multi-sided affair in their eagerness to attack the Saudi Crown Prince. They portray him as the only factor in the human crises that has resulted from this war without noting that it was a Houthi rebellion that started it, and that the Saudis intervened after their commander made a direct threat to invade Saudi Arabia. It also is loath to mention that Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula is active in this war, giving the U.S. a very good reason to at least keep an eye on things. Saudi Arabia and their allies are absolutely correct to be worried about the consequences of having a state under Iranian influence at their southern borders. I'm sure that Mr. Kristof knows these things in far better detail than I, so why does he post an article ignoring them? This war has been a disaster for Yemen, and in the end, Saudi Arabia is blameworthy for its share of the human tragedy, but we should not fail to mention its dimensions, and the fact that there are some very bad elements involved with it, in a rush to criticize Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
3
@David Godinez Can we criticize him for murdering a journalist who was not in any way an actual threat to the Saudi regime? That was kind of the main thrust of the article. Funny how you ignored it.
1
No mention here of Saudi betrayal of Islamic values in its pursuit of power and modern comforts. No, dont laugh, Saudi claims to power have a religious/cultural component that has of course been spiritually hollow and therefore have led to murder and war. The Kingdom leverages that claim in dealings with the Muslim world, despite the hypocrisy. Few American Muslims accept Saudi pretense these days, but it is sad that the young Saudi people Kristoff speaks to do not apparently understand or articulate their religious tradition as one of peacemaking. As with Burmese Buddhism, the nationalist aspect of religion comes to dominate, and abuses follow. Honesty is required for healing to begin.
1
Nick, isn't it kinda' tough to point fingers at the lousy human rights record of MBS when our country has detention/concentration camps full of thousands of immigrant children?
11
@Cody McCall: Two wrongs don't make a right. We should suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia AND find a way to close those detention/concentration camps. We need serious reforms to our immigration and naturalization laws but it won't happen under Trump and the GOP Senate. Yes we do a lot of wrong things as a country and continuing to support MBS is one of them. A glaring one.
21
@ Cody McCall
No. One can justifiably point fingers at both.
1
@Cody McCall- yesterday a national t.v. news report from Texas showed immigrant detainees in a camp being numbered with permanent black ink on their arms, including children. Reminded me of time I spent learning about and then personally touring Auschwitz! I'm disgusted with this administration for many reasons but this tops it!!
2
"I suspect the real reason Trump and Kushner embrace M.B.S., aside from the hope that he will back their Middle East peace plan, is business: the belief that Saudis will invest in their personal real estate projects for decades to come."
Of course, money is the reason that Trump and Kushner continue to engage with the Saudis. Money is the only language that Trump speaks.
33
@Barbara Don't be surprised when Trump is out of office the Saudis will say Donald Who?
It’s foreign policy 101 that a country’s specific interests drive relations with another country, which is why we don’t interact much with, say, Zaire. Indeed the US is bodyguard to SA’s gas attendant status. The US and it’s allies need that energy. Just as we’ve turned a blind eye to China’s authoritarianism for economics and to counter the USSR and now Russia, we are largely unconcerned with women drivers. It’s utterly transactional and cynical and wrong. And as with China, we DO need SA and can exert little effective pressure on it. We need the oil, and it’s proximity and counterweight to Iran.
Egypt turned to USSR from US for its war equipment decades ago and SA can do this too. Russia would be a great partner for it because it could compel Iran to step back more. Russia could sell/give plenty of equipment so don’t give the spare parts argument too much credence.
SA has the US over a barrel, literally.
3
@AG:
Yes, and look at what a world threat Egypt is with russian military products. We really DONT need SA anymore.
"In 25 years, if we’re freed from the tyranny of imported oil, we may not need it at all."...25 yrs?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-06/u-s-becomes-a-net-oil-exporter-for-the-first-time-in-75-years
2
What pap. If someone replaces Mohammed Bone Saw, will they stop selling oil? Does Kristof not know that we are now an oil exporter? His heart is in the right place, but his facts and analysis are awfully out of date.
4
Incredulous....Dearest Nick....Maybe the curious presence of
Active Evil in the Prince and public Praise in the People ...is the same dynamic we, the People Of America tolerate in an active
Sociopathic Personality Disorder in our Oval Office, Didn’t
“President” Trump declare He could “Murder on Fifth Avenue”
and still enjoy the People’s Praise? (Maybe it wasn’t Fifth Avenue, but you know what I mean.) I’m still waiting for a clear
Psychiatric Diagnosis Of our American Public Swill. trump is beyond Treatment; wwe, the People are Sick.
11
"But modernity isn’t just about cappuccinos and iPhone apps; it’s also about human dignity and the rule of law."
Well said, Mr. Kristof.
18
Is it not possible for the Saudis to have a reformer who is not also a Caligula? The smarmy defence( sure he dismembers journalists but I can drive to the Starbucks), is beneath contempt. Trump and Kushner see ways to varnish their reputations and increase their bank accounts in their support of a murdering, clumsy and callous little tyrant. It all just makes me sick.
22
The fear leading to embarrassment when discussing sensitive Saudi issues is understandable. Courage and risk are commendable, but the slaughter of Khashoggi, imprisonment and torture of critics, the genocidal horrors unleashed on Yemen -- fear and trembling make sense.
As for the Trumps, where in the future will they find those millions and billions and trillions they lust for if not in Saudi Arabia and Russia? During the two World Wars, a popular song advised "Don't bite the hand that's feeding you."
Doug Giebel, Big Sandy, Montana
91
We need to get out of the middle east. We have enough blood on our hands there. We have spent over 6 trillion dollars there in the last 2 decades. We give billions of dollars to Israel and Egypt every year. We obsessed over the murder of a dissident reporter who should have known better than go into the Saudi Consulate. Who did he think he was dealing with. We neglect our own defense and security needs. If we continue with out current policies. the mad theocratic countries of the middle east are going to drag us down with them.
8
Follow the money is all you have to do, Trump and Kushner are up to their eyeballs in Saudi money. trump is simply acting in his own best interest not America’s.
15
The only awkwardness is within the hypocrisy that is exuded from all sides - if we are to demand human rights within Saudi Arabia, and for them to stop the genocide in Yemen, then we should be demanding the same from China, or the Philippines, or ...
The scale of injustices and murder from the state is certainly on par, but they don't have oil, so we remain silent.
We can't stop the flow of smartphones I suppose ... ?
3
@FunkyIrishman: When we turn a blind eye to human rights anywhere it weakens us for talking about it anywhere. If we could get some but not all human rights abuses to be corrected we should still do it. Sometimes one needs to pick one's battles. Apparently Trump's are more with the NFL, European Democracies and Canada than with any human rights abusers.
4
Along time ago I visited an elderly German woman whose husband had just died. She said she was going to show me something she had never shown to anyone else. She took up into a room with an old wooden chest and opened it. Inside was a military uniform, medals and a Nazi flag from Germany. She then proceeded to tell me about her history. "After WWI, we were living in Poland. We were dirt poor, defeated, and people spit on us as we went down the street. Then arose this young man who told us to have pride in ourselves, that we were something, to lift our heads high. People cannot understand why we followed him but after he came to power our economy boomed, we drove down streets with pride. Sure he did and said some unfortunate things at the time but we overlooked them. We did not know then the price of this renewed glory but we knew what we had suffered and so I save these things not to excuse the Nazis but to remember how we were all taken in." So now Saudi Arabia has their dynamic young leader leading them to new glory. However, he comes with a few troubling side affects. It's good our Senate is paying attention.
21
By talking to regular Saudi people and asking poignant questions, you may have put them in jeopardy. And you were never going to get an honest answer. So what's the point?
5
Why would many of these people think there was anything untoward in killing Khashoggi? We just assume everyone in the world, especially if they're young, secretly ascribes to Western mores. Mr. Bone Saw, because in part he was educated entirely in Saudi Arabia didn't see anything at all wrong with it and probably still doesn't. Had he greater exposure, his inclination would have been the same, but he could have looked at it through the eyes of one of those effete Americans and stayed his hand. A cold calculus from an alien culture; Women can now drive, a guy is dissolved in acid: two steps forward and one step back.
2
"I suspect the real reason Trump and Kushner embrace M.B.S....is business: the belief that Saudis will invest in their personal real estate projects for decades to come." This hits the proverbial nail--when a mad, murdering crown prince meets a mad President who says he can get away with murder, corruption is inevitable. That the people in Saudi Arabia tolerate the corruption in exchange for tidbits is little different the USA citizens electing a corrupt businessman in hopes for tidbits from his table.
12
It's tragic what happened to Khashoggi, but the outrage about if from the mostly male journalists about one of their own disgusts me, given the silence of most of them about the barbaric abuses of women in SA. (And no, before anyone bother saying it, enslaving women is not a "cultural issue". It's a human rights abuse.) Women in that appalling country cannot go out, travel, or even seek medical care (!!) without their owner's permission. They are bound into abusive marriages, with no escape other than by going before a tribunal of men, after many years of waiting. (Their owners, on the other hand, can divorce in an instant, if they feel like it.) These are NOT cultural issues (which is something some people say when it's only women undergoing the abuse, not men too), but the press in the west barely ever breathes a word of criticism about it. But a male journalist being murdered?! My god! Gasp, shock, horror! How dare MBS do such a thing?!
8
Saudi policy promoting Wahhabi beliefs is why 911 happened, and why we have a war on "terror." The Saudi's are not now, nor have they ever been our friends. It is a disgusting relic of all that is wrong with fanatical religion and hereditary monarchy. It is everything that the United States rejected when we declared independence from the old regimes of Europe. There is no way that our backing the House of Saud ends well for us or the world. This is not a Trump issue. The current policy of looking the other way has been going on since Saudi Arabia was created out of the ruins of the Ottoman Empire
9
As long as the US provides weapons to SA to bomb Yemen, the US is complicit, if not specifically guilty, in the murder and dismemberment of Kahshoggi. The idea that foreign policy is more important than the life/death of a single person is absurd. What about 60,000 Yemenis?
5
The only awkwardness is within the hypocrisy that is exuded from all sides - if we are to demand human rights within Saudi Arabia, and for them to stop the genocide in Yemen, then we should be demanding the same from China, or the Philippines, or ...
The scale of injustices and murder from the state is certainly on par, but they don't have oil, so we remain silent.
We can't stop the flow of smartphones I suppose ...
2
You can’t swing a dead chicken in that country without hitting a prince! What’s so special about MBS?
1
This attitude is no different from here in the USA. There are plenty who support Trump in his immoral policies and are convinced he is not a criminal himself....And are willing to overlook the bad stuff for the one or two good things. Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt...it’s a river at the heart of the human psyche.
6
No mention of the debt relations/ purchases by the Sauds with Petro Dollars for military supplies/supports in the future. Did they simply stop after 9/11/01? Think not...as our supplying the arms/fuels/ ect. for the fight in Yemen continues.
The Senate vote did exactly what? Let it be known again that the Senate declares wars and not Trump, and they are not supporting Trumps favorable position towards MBS, and that acknowledges MBS did murder Jamal Khashoggi. (NY Times 12/13/18 )
No mention at all of any financial assistance being stopped or curtailed in helping the Sauds continue the destruction of Yemen.
Let's see what the Senate votes on in January after the holiday break...meanwhile the war continues, and has no holiday break.
1
If MBS, murderous bone saw, is the answer, the wrong question is being asked.
2
Saudi Arabia’s armed forces can’t even defeat a militia in Yemen, very true and in the procees they were capable of starving to death 85,000 children, and the destruction of a generation or two of Yemenis, and you call that a Great Leader, something is wrong with their logic. MBS is Putin of the Middle East in my opinion.
3
After King Abdulaziz (the first king of Saudi Arabia) died, the king had to be one of his sons. This could not go on forever, and King Salman was to be the last son to be king. Every king picked the Crown Prince of his successor, and King Salman's predecessor picked the grandson Mohammed bin Nayef. All decisions were not just by the king, Saudi Arabia was an oligarchy of the heads of the various branches of the al-Saud family and the senior Mullahs. Then MbS transformed Saudi Arabia into an autocracy, with himself as the autocrat. How he did this is not clear, but it's said he must have had a lot of help (from Langley?). And now he has the full support of Trump, May, Macron, and Merkel, because he's pushing Saudi Arabia in directions of which they approve. And if he kills a Washington Post writer, none of them care. And if it helps Saudi Arabia rid the Yemen of all Shi'a whom they consider Iranian invaders (even if history and geography make it obvious that this is not true), both Obama and Trump offered the full support of the American military (for reasons that escape me). Mr Kristof should have started writing these columns when Obama was president: Trump is just following Obama with respect to the Yemen.
3
If the Saudis did turn to Russia, they might even be as well off as the Syrians. Russia is their direct competition.
The Saudis seem doomed.
1
"The result is nervous smiles. And long pauses in the conversation," is probably what one gets when reminding Americans of the war in Vietnam or slavery, union bashing, and Trump. We feel the nervous smile and the discomfort in Kristof's Saudi interlocutors because we are uncomfortable with the knowledge that the nation that could be doing so much to reduce suffering and ignorance in the world isn't living up to the image it has of itself. As long as we let ourselves off the hook and elect criminals to political office without holding ourselves democratically responsible we will continue to let others, like Mr. Bone Saw off the hook too. It doesn't have to be that way but as long as we accept the bribes for denial and persecute awareness, we are never going to be anything but grinning idiots to our children.
2
"Everything he touches he breaks".
It's not much different in the United States. There are places in the world where Americans torture and kill people.
There are places in America where desperate refugees are not welcome and live in tents, children are separated from their parents, some even die in the desert.
In America there are children that have poor to no health insurance, children who have inadequate schooling.
In America we support a decades old war that kills and maims civilians.
In America there are Americans killing other Americans.
In America racism and other isms are alive and well and supported by the president.
In American everything the current president touches he breaks. And yet there are millions of people who love and support this guy.
9
It is interesting that Saudis and also Americans do not care that someone was brutally tortured and then murdered.
Money does seem to be most important to most people.
3
You really should have ask that lady who thought driving was better than accountability for murder, what would she do if the prince changed his mind tomorrow about women driving? Other than turning in her keys, I mean. The problem with dictators is that everything is based on his whim. The best you can hope for in such a society is to be overlooked.
5
The crown prince owns Trump and he responded
accordingly.
Haspel has to quit. if he is going to ignore CIA
advice, why stay.
I think in order to understand the US Saudi relationship a clear picture of Trump and Kushner’s financial relationships with the Saudi’s.
2
In return, did the Saudis ask about our dictator-in-the-making here in the US and the arrests in his administration?
Awkward silence.
3
Just remember....Trump and his like want Saudi money. Out the other side of their mouths they say they want Middle Eastern countries to pay for the,wars and clean up after those wars.
"Sure there are missteps." So, starving thousands of children is a "misstep"?
3
Thank you for writing this column.
1
Khashoggi was banned from Saudi Arabia after criticizing Trump.
It is time to consider a scenario where Trump and MBS conspired to make an example of Khashoggi in exactly the way that was done in Turkey.
Both Trump and MBS have all the characteristics of a sociopath infused with narcissism. They do what they want without regard to any rules.
3
While a reasonable description of Saudi Arabia as a police Saudi Arabia as a police state can be made, Americans must be aware of our own history. In WW2, America was allied with the greatest mass murderer of the 20th century, Joseph Stalin. We gave him weapons in order to defeat Hitler, but his police state was more horrible that what is occurring in Yemen or Saudi Arabia. Also, the police state in China is doing the following : In August 2018, a UN committee heard that up to one million Uighur Muslims and other Muslim groups could be being detained in the western Xinjiang region, where they're said to be undergoing "re-education" programmes.
see https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279
I am not trying to excuse what the Saudi rulers are doing , but we must realize that all nations will act to protect their interests regardless of moral consequences. We should protest what is occurring in Yemen, but lets no pretend that our own foreign policy record has no serious moral flaws which others can attack.
Finally, Trump is simply continuing a policy of support for the Saudi regime which was began by a liberal icon, Franklin Roosevelt. see https://www.history.com/news/fdr-saudi-arabia-king-oil
1
Thank you, once again, Mr. Kristof, for your bravery and humanity. Please be careful out there in places that think that torture and killing are OK. You deserve the Nobel Peace Prize!
2
You talk about social progress in Saudi Arabia, Nicolas.
But, do tell.
Are the women still required to wear black from head to foot, eyes covered with netting?
If so, do not use the words "social progress," anywhere in your articles.
Use the words, "The Saudi men continue to oppress, marginalize and abuse Saudi women, their fists as tightly clamped around women's necks as they have always been. They are still a misogynistic, medieval country when it comes to women and how they are treated. They pretend that there is change in Saudi Arabia so that they convince the US taxpayer/our currently corrupt government to foot the bill if Iran makes threatening noises and so they can continue to buy our weapons which they use to bomb and starve children in Yemen."
Thank you, Nicholas.
And, to Mr. Bone Saw, the only Americans who believe you are anything less than a murderer and a spoiled, entitled, dangerous sheikh, are the Washington D.C. crime family, the Trumps, and others who can profit off of you.
The rest of us see you quite clearly and it is chilling.
5
On the grand scale of equivalents, letting women drive does not equal starving children and gruesome murders.
2
@Selis: It is more than letting or not letting women drive. The status of women, as Katie points out, remains dismal in Saudi Arabia. There are treated like chattel. There is also no free speech or right of protest there. The fact that Trump not only accepts but embraces the Saudi Prince is chilling.
I continue to wonder how is the Houthi, their rebellion and the consequences, totally escape any responsibility for their own people and initiatives.
It seems to stop carnage all they have to do is surrender and agree to stop collaborating with Al Qaeda and Iran.
It’s time to cut the Saudis loose. We have enough domestic oil production and new cars are going electric, so our need for gas will drop.
2
Great column, Mr. Kristof. A slave who can drive is still a slave. But I think the Saudis will get there soon enough. One has to start somewhere.
In terms of Saudi oil and renewable energy, Jimmy Carter should have taken Donald Trump aside to try to pound some sense into him at the funeral. Because when we’re done in Yemen, it will be our funeral next.
2
If the Saudis are to be our friends, our main point of contact cannot be a man who orchestrated the murder of a Washington Post journalist then lied about it. It is really that simple.
4
trump admirers mbs because he is above the law. He dreams of having the same here at home. Starkly, he will be facing criminal prosecution, if not immediately, a foolish Justice rule that makes no sense, or following his corrupt occupation of the WH. He and his family have cheated local, state and federal governments of millions, cheated renters of millions in fraudulently inflated rents. Civil cases will have their day in court. America doesn’t need Saudi Arabia under those terms. mbs should be tried for murder, and if convicted, hanged or butchered, or whatever their penalty is. No one is above the law.
4
Make MBS persona-non-grata in USA. Ari Emanuel from William Morris Agency in Beverly Hills should return 500 million investment in his company last spring by MBS.
1
MBS's 'liberal' reforms such as women drivers and shaking down a few of the obscenely wealthy and possibly corrupt elite are window dressing for us in the west (Ooh look! A squirrel!) and nothing more. Until a couple of years ago he was a very small frog in a large puddle of princelings, and it's not clear how he got the cash to buy that yacht and that (dubious, IMNSHO) Leonardo. He will be ousted: not by his father but by some of those more senior second generation princes, sons of Khaliid and Fahd and Faisal and Abdullah, who resent his usurping the natural order and spoiling the nice little gig they had going. Some of them are also competent.
You’ve put your interviewees in harms way. You’ve named some, and they can track video footage (of you) to find others. You didn’t need to to this to prove a point about MbS. We saw the High Five video of the prince & Putin.
Would you do the same interviews in Venezuela, Syria or North Korea? No, because you’d be killed. Where were you speaking out during Obama’s 8 years ignoring BaA’s abuses is Syria?
Isn’t this about a reporter (who was also a Subject of the Kingdom) who broke their laws by speaking out? He knew what he was doing was suicide, which is why he ((feared)) going to get the marriage license. I’m certain you won’t be going back.
Despicable leaders have always done terrible things. (Pushing hundreds of drugged students out of planes off the coast of Argentina...) Name the country: Cuba. Chile. Cambodia.
What do you want Trump to do? Go to war with Saudi Arabia? Yeah, that’ll fix 100 years of issues in the region. The pen IS mightier than the sword; try to use it wisely.
@jdoubleu:
So if someone doesn't speak out about everything that is unjust in the world in your opinion they are not permitted to speak out about any one thing that is unjust? C'mon.
1
Just calling out hypocrisy for his silence (when Obama did nothing about Syria) for nearly 8 years.
Yes, speak out. But let’s not pretend he’s not (100% politically) biased.
How many civilians dead in Syria compared to 1 Subject/Reporter executed?
This is just another anti-Trump story. Nothing more.
Saudi Arabia is a Sunni theocracy. Iran is a Shiite theocracy. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is the only bar to an Evangelical theocracy in the US.
1
Do not for a second think that MBS display of liberalism (women drivers, shaking down the corrupt and obscenely wealthy) is anything more than a nice tailored suit to show the world. He still controls a level of $$$ which bears no relationship to his very junior position in the al Sauds until a couple of years ago - remember Salvador Mundi and that yacht? He is the very mirror image of Trump but smarter - he's watching and learning. If there is a move to unseat him it will not come from his father but from the more senior princes, sons of Faisal and Fahd and Abdullah, some of whom are competent and all of whom resent what this usurper has done to their nice little gig. It won't be pretty.
1
The premise of the article is the US has leverage over the Saudis.....hmm let me think...Sept 11 2001, 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis - how did we use our leverage then to address Saudi extremism?
I'd like to read a similar story written from Iran, focusing on attempts to liberalize their culture and politics, and what it is that they so hate about Saudi Arabia and Israel.
Let's not forget the trump (crime) family's special monetary interest in KSA. That is unquestionably the main driver in any of "president" trump's Saudi decisions.
1
Saudi Arabia "buys our weapons because they come with an implicit guarantee that we will bail the Saudis out militarily if they get in trouble with Iran." Say What? Who would be foolish enough to think that the American public would enter into another Middle Eastern war on the say so of a lying American President and a murderous foreign leader with no moral compass. Both American and Saudi leaders are way off the mark if they think we would risk American lives and treasure to defend the architects of 911 from an adversary who has never invaded another sovereign nation. If they need backup tell them to knock on Israel's door. Every time we choose which door to open in the Middle East, we get the tiger.
1
The Obama administration sold the Saudis $115 Billion in weapons in 2016, but the liberals are crying political foul because Trump continues the same.
But who knows, maybe the USA will abandon Saudi Arabia and their oil in favor of Argentina and Bolivia because of their vast lithium resources. Toyota just bought an interest in a lithium mining company in Argentina.
Right on, Nick. Keep on truckin'. TG
1
Kristof doesn't mention as a reason for Trump's embrace of MBS what I think is the scariest. Saudi Arabia and Israel, strangest of bedfellows, want to see us go to war with Iran. This is a fact, if a scary one. Some in the Trump administration, esp. the inveterate warmonger Bolton, but also Pompeo, have the same itch. U.S. policy, after pulling out of the nuclear deal, has acted, intentionally or not, to try to bait Iran into a casus belli. So far, the best thing the U.S. has going for it is that Trump himself is, at heart, a coward. But when you look at Pompeo and Bolton doing everything they can to rescue MBS's reputation, this is the reason why.
You see, both Israel and Saudi Arabia ... would be happy to hold our coat while we take on Iran. Great allies, those.
1
Nicholas should probably stay out of the kingdom after this.
We’re so close to Middle East Peace, because all we need is for Netanyahu and MBS to sign off on Jared’s plan. It’s that simple. Who knew?
1
Write what you want, say what you want, but inevitably I harken back to the year 2001 when in the month of September hijacked planes crashed intentionally into buildings in New York and Washington, plus one into the ground in Pennsylvania, killing over 3000 innocent people at their workplace.
And who were the perpetrators of this horrific crime? Well most of the criminals were Saudi Arabians.
Has anything really changed?
2
I would much rather have a relationship with Iran than with Saudi Arabia. SA sponsored the 9/11 terrorists, spreads violent Wahhabism throughout the world and oppressws and murders its citizens. Saudi women's celebration of driving in the 21st century was so sad and pathetic. Iran is much more modern, sophisticated and egalitarian and far less aggressive than portrayed by our government propaganda.
1
@Detached ...and our media!
I have also visited KSA. It is beyond my pay grade to fully understand the relationship between KSA and Isreal but clearly it is a supportive alliance. What I find upsetting is the arrogance of an “American”. So KSA cannot win in Yemen. Please explain Afghanistan and Vietnam with same arrogance. Yemen has been underway for years but a journalist is murdered and an “American” judges quickly and conflates a horrible conflict with a single act. It is my understanding that the USA does not import oil from KSA. Surely this is a simple fact check. And the comment about Trump real estate desires is baseless and demeans the fact that children are dying. This comment simply feeds an “American” ego. And an IPO for what would be the largest company in the world is no simple matter. Perhaps KSA can bring in Goldman’s for another IBMD transaction. Yet I don’t see any columnist writing of Goldman’s actions. Oh that is right it is American. Never mind
Saudi-Arabia has been, and still is the leading purveyor of terrorism in the world. Their deal with the Wahhabi cult has caused immense damage through the spread of their ultra-right wing distorted version of Islam and radicalized people around the world. Their financing of Al Queda and ISIS, among others has caused most of the middle east problems and massive death. Their foreign misadventures have all been disasters. They have the most despotic, backward, misogynist regime in the middle east. They abhor democracy and stifle any dissent, often murderously. The country is all about the personal wealth, whims, and spending of the Saud clan.
So why does the US demean and endanger itself to support them? It is all about the 1% and money. Our government has simply sacrificed American values, interest and even lives to support the business interests of the 1%. And Trump and Kushner are seriously endangering America with their greedy support for their own personal business interests. Shame on Republicans, and many Democrats too, for supporting this massive error in judgement.
No number of tortured-to-death men can wipe away the simple reality that women in the Kingdom are now permitted to drive (with their husbands' consent).
1
May I suggest that Mr. Kristof not make any visits to Saudi embassies or consulates?
1
Having an outdoor ...or indoor ...art scape does not redeem this repressive regime in any way .
1
Who cares about modern art installations when you have a police state, and no human rights?
2
Guess what? People in dictatorships can't speak their minds. Wow.
(They even sometimes find ways of getting across what they think without compromising themselves. Double wow.)
We should have let Saddam run the whole show.
NK Sir, you have put it succinctly. America is Saudi's body guard. Saudi is America's gas station attendant. As they want that one man's ( even as great as a well-meaning journalist) 'death' shouldn't be allowed to jeopardize your relationships, America might ignore NK's disrespectful references to a prince. Business is greater than 'anybody', you see! Till America runs her vehicles without oil and SA goes the NK (North Korea I mean) way, this relationship will be as cordial as ever!
The comments show fear of telling the truth but also the preponderance of self interest and the naiveté that it can't happen to me or mine in the opinions expressed. i.e." I'm getting my driver's license so what if he killed someone." "We're prospering and don't care if he's committing genocide in Yemen". Despots survive because of their base..just ask Dotard Twitler.
1
The Trump administration wants to be friends with Saudi Arabia for the same reason it denies climate change. The Saudis have had our back on oil supply for decades. Which country gave us a ground base for the second Iran war? The Iranians took US diplomats hostage. We are not going to forget. Does the US really need another enemy in the Middle East?
Saudis citizens see progress. The boot is only kicking them in the stomach instead of breaking their necks. The country is ruled by an absolute monarchy and a religious police that is not going away. For Saudis, clearly this dictator is better than the last dictator.
So we look the other way at murder. Not the first time.
2
Mr. Kristof...let's hope that since Saudi Arabia is one of the most surveillance aggressive countries in the world, with the most sophisticated eavesdropping technologies available to them, that you don't cause any of your interviewees to be detained, tortured, imprisoned or murdered for the sake of this rehashing-of-the-already-known editorial.
3
This simplistic analysis of Saudi Arabia is shocking. Don't you realize what will happen if we drop our support to the kingdom? Middle East will explode along with oil prices. Untold hundred of thousands of people will die ,maybe even millions . All of the Sunni countries in the Middle East supported by Saudis will collapse. What happened in Turkey is tragic and terrible. But we do not have a luxury of dealing only with good people in the world. For the greater good.
@Vadim
So, let them sort themselves out. If oil prices skyrocket, so be it..perhaps the world will then get serious about the climate change disaster staring us ALL in the face.
TAD
Trump is unprincipled and has no moral compass, so follow the dollars (or the potential dollars) to discover his priorities and motivations.
3
I believe that Nicholas Kristof is the conscience of the United States.
2
Just to say, thanks, and be careful.
1
MBS, Jared's best friend. Who needs enemies?
2
This is exactly the sort of article I would expect to get from sending someone who knows China to report on Saudi Arabia. Naiveté.
Saudi Arabia is the same today as it was 4 years ago, and 14 years ago, and 40 years ago. Still an ally. Still ears everywhere; the king knows who you spoke with .
"Some Saudis kept trying to suggest to me that if we block weapons sales to Riyadh, the kingdom will turn to Moscow. That’s absurd. "
Absurd ?
Wake up.
It's not absurd. It's a very real possibility.
British planes have to go full afterburner to get over the wheel chocks. French planes fly faster in reverse than in forward - although gimbeled omelette pans on the instrument panels are a nice touch.
Russian equipment comes with the feature of being Russian, something we don't want to see in Saudi Arabia (or Venezuela).
But the Iraqis did just fine with the Russians and the Saudis know it. If they get the sense that we no longer have their backs, they'll find someone else - and - enjoy sticking their finger in our eye in the process.
"Saudi Arabia’s armed forces can’t even defeat a militia in Yemen, so how could they stand up to Iran?"
Another dumb observation.
They aren't trying to defeat them. They are trying to frustrate Iranian ambitions on the peninsula. It seems that Our Author has missed entirely the fact that there has been no expeditionary occupation force sent into Yemen by the Saudis. Just bombs and missiles.
They don't want Yemen.
No one wants Yemen.
1
How would the military and the industrial complex make a profit without war? Our war machine is a cash cow. Profit before principle. Gack.
2
We as a country are oil addicts.We pay a very high price for this addiction.Pristine lands in our country are being opened up for oil drilling.Our fondness for Saudi oil makes us content to excuse murderous crimes by a Saudi Prince and help him pillage and starve Yemen.We excuse all of this in the name of oil.Truth be known, we don’t need all of this oil and its use is degrading the environment.For us, the acquisition of more oil is a lose, lose situation.Saudi Arabia is a threat with a new and authoritarian Prince-all journalists should avoid the country.
2
I suspect the real reason Trump and Kushner embrace M.B.S. is that he leads a police state and can do whatever he wants to the opposition, especially journalists, including murdering and dismembering them. M.B.S. is a member of a royal family, no doubt Trump fantasizes that he is the head of some kind of twisted "royal" family and he wants nothing more than to transplant that into the US government. Both M.B.S. and Trump are deplorable.
4
Saudi apologists say that the U.S.-Saudi relationship is more important that “one life.”
First of all, I don’t really concede that it is. If we were going with the “one life” theory, perhaps MBS would be willing to share the punishment he is imposing on his minions for the murder he himself ordered. After all, MBS’s “one life” for the sake of U.S.-Saudi relations is should be worth it, right? No? Well, then let’s not go down that road then.
But even putting that point aside, Khashoggi’s murder is not a matter of “one life.” Yes, all people are individuals, but looking past what MBS has done has implications extending beyond just Khashoggi. In this specific case, MBS was caught pretty much red handed. But that’s just luck. How many people in totalitarian countries are kidnapped, beaten and/or killed in obscurity? I do not take it as a given that MBS had a unique grudge against MBS. Rather, it seem so me that MBS is simply the type of over-powered, under-parented child-king that does terrible things to people who annoy him. If he’s capable of killing Khashoggi so flippantly, I see no reason to believe he would not do it again; the only difference being we (i.e., the world) probably will not have a tape of it next time. So there’s no reason to believe (in the long term) that this is about “one life” and every reason to believe it will become about multiple lives, whether we learn of them all or not.
147
The Kashoggi murder offends not only our scruples, but our sensibilities, too. After so many whodunits, we appreciate the well-crafted killing that leaves no clues. We are aficionados of the dirty deed. So, this buffoonery by Saudi hacks, dispatched by the most likely suspect, insults our murder mystery expectations. Any of us could have planned it more with more subtlety. Ditto the Yemen war, where Ali Baba's treasure has bought the Saudis opprobrium, not victory.
If MBS represents the best and the brightest his people can produce, what chance does it stand to compete - once its oil card is played out? Saudis build grand institutions, but how does that compensate for their crippling, systemic favoritism? Imagine Harvard for legacy applicants only!
The modern global marketplace favors whatever generates profit - like productive employees. Pre-modern societies that still select workers and leaders on the basis of irrelevancies -like family, tribe, sect, race, and gender - are doomed in any competition with meritocracies. Saudi Arabia, like the whole stratified, tradition-bound world it exemplifies, will either adapt or fade away.
46
@raphael colb
Do Trump, Trump Jr. Kushner, Giuliani etc., etc., represent the best and brightest our people can produce? Apparently enough of the electorate in 2018 thought so. Or are those type of achievers and role models now out of favor because they are called "elitist" by the very electorate that brought us what they wrought us?
7
The Saud people are probably pleased with their apps and women driving as life in the past in Saudi Arabia was very much so more restrictive and it still is especially so for women. The true reasons we cannot abandon the Saudis is plain and simple, oil. They still control oil and production of oil as one of the largest producers of oil and as a founding country of OPEC. Did you notice how quickly Putin began appearing in Saudi Arabia when post killing occurred? The house of Saud controls via their investments tons of companies in the western world, whether it is real estate, factories or those businesses that provide jobs throughout the world. The Sauds are vehemently against Iran and are mortal enemies. There is no question that if Iran were to take their fight to Saudi Arabia, on it's own it would lose and plunge the world immediately in chaos. The US is almost self sufficient in oil by not there yet. Our gas pipelines to the biggest cities have not been built out because of the Obama policies preventing it. Once that occurs we will be able to reduce oil dependency by converting much of our fuel needs to cleaner gas fuels and build out and power our electric infrastructure. There is no doubt that we and the Western world have no choice but to put up with MBS the despot and believe this story is not over yet.
Having spent most of a summer 30+ years ago living in an authoritarian state, I can tell you from experience that the citizens under such a regime are extremely careful in what they say to foreigners, knowing as they do that a mistake could prove costly at the least. So I don't know how much a reporter is going to get out of Saudis even with promises of anonymity.
The House of Saud has got to go, MBS first, but the whole thing has to go, this is the first time I've ever felt that foreign interference might prove justified. The recent war in Yemen is a very large-scale atrocity and a much more serious matter that the Khashoggi murder, though that is probably what got the attention of the Senate. But that's not all: recall that most of the 9/11 were Saudis, and the Sauds have been major contributors to terror groups, to some of which they are rumored to have paid huge sums of money as insurance against assassination. And the Sauds are Wahabbis, that's an extremely fundamentalist sect, and inherently, virulently, anti-Semitic. So, these are friends? What kind of friends do their American supporters believe they are? Can somebody in the government tell me why I should have a portion of my taxes go to military support for those monsters? Better we should clear out that nest of vipers now while they're at their most outrageous. I'd pay my share in taxes for that, gladly.
6
@Sidewalk Sam and they want two Westinghouse reactors built by south Koreans and then fuel it with radioactive precursors extracted.by themselves from their own mineral.deposits all not verified. They want nuclear arms under their own control and it seems the.Trumpster.is ok.with that...middle.east.peace plan???
This is interesting, and sad. MBS clearly has antagonized other princes and multi-millionaires. But he's got the professionals on his side, because he let women drive and men get to use their iphones. Despots come in all flavors.
If the U.S. had a competent administration, and the State Dept. wasn't hollowed out, it might have used the Khashoggi killing as leverage with the powerful people MBS antagonized. They could have gotten an Interpol warrant to keep MBS from travelling. He might have turned to Moscow, but that would have antagonized his elders. It would have been a difficult process to marginalize MBS, but not impossible. So far beyond Trump it's absurd.
Yet pushing MBS out of the spotlight would have been very unpopular among the crowd Kristof talked to. That's what privilege and fear do.
4
We as Americans always want our allies to do more reform. I hope Mr Kristol remembers that the next time he accuses his nation of interfering or "imperial arrogance". He can't have it both ways. But applaud his American instinct for reform. Everyone has 'good intentions.'
Actually, from the article, it's pretty clear that any asking was a set up for the telling you intended to do. I'm sure those folks were very grateful for you to explain the world to them, however.
We don't need the murderous Mr. Bone Saw and we don't need Saudi Arabia or its oil. The Saudis may think they need us to protect them from Iran -- which is why they have also made friends with a nuclear-armed Israel -- but any White House other than one led by Trump and advised by a Zionist Kushner knows the folly of getting involved in a sectarian war between Sunnis and Shias. In fact, Iran could be a much better U.S. ally than Saudi Arabia. It has a young, well educated Western-oriented population, resentful of the religious strictures of its mullahs, and seemed ready to toss them out before Trump weakened the moderates and strengthened the mullahs by tearing up the Iran nuclear deal and reimposing sanctions.
5
The focus on Trump/Kushner and personal wealth and/or prestige appears naive in light of the geopolitical game that this war in Yemen is a despicable piece of. Better to focus on Pompeo/Bolton and the overarching "principles" of the Pentagon and State Department, as taught through the War Colleges and elite International Relations departments. The focus of all this is China and Russia, the "Revisionist States" Gen. Mattis spoke of. Their efforts to create a unified interlinked body on the Eurasian land mass largely depends on the important link of Iran. Iran is the current target, although the real threat is China and Russia, whose movements today threaten to make the US Navy, which is how the US ultimately dominates the world, completely, instead of only partially, obsolete. So, the force allied against the weak point Iran, is what might be called the new axis of maybe-evil, of the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia.
2
@stuart
There's as difference between wanting more reform and aiding and abetting.
How many of us genuinely feel complicit in the starvation of tens of thousands of children in Yemen? Do we understand that our country, and thus, each and everyone of us shares some blame for the caged, detained and at risk children from the Trump created immigration crisis at our southern border? And, yes, the murderous behavior of a Saudi prince, M. B. S.
A harsh judgement - perhaps. However, I believe we must accept some sense of personal responsibility in order to force changes in the conduct of this country, and by that action, cause change elsewhere. Logic and information, such as Kristof has provided, are important to that action, but without our own demands as citizens, nothing will change -- a reality Trump & Co. recognizes.
3
Why...what has Saudia Arabia done to harm the national interests of the United States? On the contrary, the country has been a supporter of the President's "America First" foreign policy goals.
The USA has liked the Saudi's for a long time. HWBush loved them. Clinton also. They were always awful.
It's hard, as a woman born and raised here, to look at the oppression of women there and say, "Cool. Now they can drive." Someone in prison can go out for an hour a day and see the sun. I guess that's good unless you are the person in prison.
The triumvirate of automobile manufacturers, oil companies and the US government is also not new. Standard Oil, GM and Uncle Sam have been partners along with US Steel for a long time. It's only a little different now. If we are really going towards electric cars, and we really get off fossil fuels, maybe the stranglehold the Saudis have on us and the Middle East will diminish. But maybe not.
Trump, in particular, does not understand the words "humanitarian crisis." He does not care if a journalist was killed, as he hates them (except Hannity). He doesn't have the intelligence to deal with complex situations (health care is REALLY hard, the US Government is really big.)
Your work, Nick, is amazing and phenomenal. Thank you for it. Thanks, NYT, for letting him continue to do what he does. It is always a ray of bright hope in these dark, dark days. Would that you would run for POTUS, but you would never win, you "bleeding heart, East Coast liberal."
2
The sad truth is that most people don't give a fig about other people's human rights. If a regime seems to be benefiting them, and those like them, they find it easy to turn a blind eye to the fact that it tortures those they don't know.
Stalin had many eloquent defenders, even among those who knew what was going on. "Yes, it was a pity that collectivisation caused many millions of peasants to starve to death. Yes, the gulags are terrible. Yes, many innocent people are being murdered after show trials. But look how he has transformed us into an industrial society. Look how he won the Great Patriotic war (only 20 million of us died, not too high a price). Look how we are now respected and feared. You can't make an omelette without breaking 20 or 20 million eggs."
It was ever thus, sadly.
1
Trump has made money from the Saudis. Trump is making money from the Saudis. Trump will make money from the Saudis. He will do nothing to harm his cash flow. And it really is that simple.
4
"Some Saudis kept trying to suggest to me that if we block weapons sales to Riyadh, the kingdom will turn to Moscow. That’s absurd. It needs our spare parts and, more important, it buys our weapons because they come with an implicit guarantee that we will bail the Saudis out militarily if they get in trouble with Iran.
Saudi Arabia’s armed forces can’t even defeat a militia in Yemen, so how could they stand up to Iran? That’s why we have leverage over Saudi Arabia, not the other way around.
Let’s use that leverage. The next step should be a suspension of arms sales until Saudi Arabia ends its war on Yemen, for that war has made us complicit in mass starvation."
Absolutely correct.
America holds the power in this relationship, and should use it to bring an end to the war in Yemen. Ironically, it would not require one boot on the ground, or one shot fired, but simply saying NO boldly - loudly, and by suspending arms shipments .
1
"Bravo to the U.S. Senate for its historic votes".
I think you got played Mr. Kristof.
Mr. Trump (well, actually his accountant) is very happy with this vote. It merely provides greater personal leverage to Mr. Trump .... another deposit in the 'I am doing you a big favor, MBS' deposit bank. This favor, of course, requires a reciprocal deposit of another kind for Mr. Trump .. personally.
Kristof is surprised that Saudis can ignore so much because of some “social progress “. That’s the way it is here too. Democrats recognize gay rights and abortion rights — and it’s all good. Economic inequality continues apace. Wall Street continues to call the shots.
2
NICK KRISTOF Is optimistic and upbeat. But the likelihood of US support being used in Riyadh to have some impact on the functioning of the mad crown prince, is diminishingly small. Tragically. Trump stood around while he and the other lumps swayed and held their swords up in some sort of honorific ceremony. If we depended on Trump's sword skills to defend the US--well I won't finish the statement. Needless to say, I doubt that Trump could have participated in the dismembering of Khashoggi without imperiling his own digits or extremities. He'd do better to confine himself to plastic surgery, bad hair and orange pancake makeup.
1
Of course the problem for the Saudis is that the Shah of Iran started this way, Asahad of Syria started this way, Erdogan of Turkey started this way - cosmopolitan, western, educated, willing to promise enlightenment and freedoms.
But that's never the end of the story. The true ends include war, death, and destruction.
Just wait.
3
The U.S. foreign policy has lost it's moral compass completely. We are for sale under MAGA more than ever. Trump inherited the situation and made it ten times worse: support of Netanyahu's deflection of decades of a brutal Palestinian occupation to Iran, making Iran the threat. Who or what is running us? When you add the Trump family personal and business dealings and associated corruption to the mix morally we are running on empty.
As for the Saudi's they are in the "let them eat cake" phase. There is nothing like letting up a little on the repression, a few modern art works, to make everyone feel good and so happy.
The Trump doctrine:
“I don’t know why the media focuses on the bad side,” protested Tariq Buhilaigah, a consultant in Riyadh......."
Mr. Kristof, I don't imagine you would get one person in the Kingdom to come clean with you on what they think. Fear of even thinking freely must be ingrained by now. Like Republicans who are willing to excuse Trump for anything, the Saudis will take what they can.
Some days I believe I'm deluding myself by believing that one has to stand on some principles and this business of being transactional should not override certain basics of your morality. Seems I'm wrong. To say that even ethics are transactional at the right price is a misnomer, because at that point you have none.
If Mr. Bone Saw does bone saw stuff to dissidents of course people are going to say positive things and act nervous when questioned about their leader. Free speech does not occur in all countries.
1
Thanks for this article. I’d like to mention that no one tells the truth to a journalist in Saudi Arabia. Any journalist. The US is responsible for countless dead from the endless wars we insist on waging. Without warning, we kill from computers, destroy citizens lives from space. No poor soul need apply for a visa to end up dead. Just take a walk to the market and pray an American drone doesn’t blow you and your children to bits. Collateral damage for what?
The saudis have been beheading, chopping off hands and brutalizing simple folk and dissidents for centuries.
Are we the Russian counterpart to instability and repression through the world? Yes. Will we end up as Saudi Arabia’s protector? Is MSB our Assad? MBS, like his ancestors, is happily playing both sides. The Arabs take the long view. So should we.
We need to stop buying crude oil.
Besides all the horror, remember, the folks living in the Arabian peninsula won’t be able to step out doors for more than a minute in a few short years. They are going to need all the energy they can muster to keep cool. When the temps rarely drop below 90 degrees. A true battle for precious resources begin.
We have the advantage, lots of energy resources, an industrial economy and no enemies at our gates.
But then again, 45 thinks that real estate deals are more pressing than people. How do we fix that?
"Tyranny of imported oil"? This is decades out of date. The U. S. is now a net oil exporter, and what oil we do import mostly comes from Canada and Mexico.
1
Can't decide if you were reckless or brave going to such a country considering your criticism of MbS, however I do believe you adopted a rather soft attitude towards him and his approach but I imagine you could not stand up too strongly when they consider the life "of one man" is inconsequential in the broader picture, the planning and horrendous execution of itog no concern either, voicing WH rational. The young ones approve of the way he is moving the country, they have parents who'd never experienced freedom of any sort but that self satisfied young woman about to get her licence seemed unconcerned that she gained that right by the efforts of the now incarcerated and brutalised women who fought for her civil rights to do so. She and others like her should be fighting for their release. A very long way to go yet.
If you talk to other Middle Easterners about the Saudis, you'll find they're about as popular as Israel with the Arabs. Saudi Arabia does have well documented, and very much undocumented (thanks media) internal problems, too. The high fructose repression has been in place for many years, and has aggravated most of those problems.
The conservative "West" as usual refuses to see it as yet another ultra-conservative mindset with major issues and a debatable level of sanity driving itself off a cliff. Real estate deals? Saudi Arabia will be lucky to survive the coming decades, let alone the US property market.
" ... if we block weapons sales to Riyadh, the kingdom will turn to Moscow. That’s absurd. ..."
No it is not and no, you are dead wrong Mr. Kristof.
Being an embedded journalist in an international journalist trip will never show you the kingdom as it is.
Allowing women to drive cars and opening cinemas to the public does not a liberal make.
The inner workings of the kingdom are complete different.
Yes, there is a small modern looking crown in Riyadh and in Jeddah.
The kingdom has paid huge sums of money to pamper its citizens while enslaving the rest of the workforce.
Either officially with all the "dirty" workers or by keeping Westerners in close quarters.
The Saudis you have spoken with will tell you that they see themselves as privileged because they are.
They get money by the bucket load from their rulers to keep stumm.
For decades there has been a civil war brewing in the kingdom and for a number of years now the kingdom has been preparing for war with Iran, not for defence but for having a uniting distraction.
MbS is not able to run an economy any more than the Trump clan is, which is part of heir buddy ship basis, they do not understand economy and have no education to speak of but have a thirst for power and quick money taken from any source.
The kingdom today is a place of fascism and resembles the 3. Reich in the 1930s.
And if they want to switch from one weapons supplier to another, they'll do so at an instant.
There is no allegiance of the kingdom to the US.
1
Why hasn't Congress invoked the Global Magnisky Act against Saudi Arabia over the practically identical act of murdering a journalist? In fact it may be even more audacious in that it occurred in another country. I am increasingly discouraged, dismayed and frightened over the obvious lack of courage on the part of Congress in confronting evil bot domestically and internationally.
When the US enacts Carbon Fee and Dividend, placing a price on the pollution that fossil fuels create, the price of oil-based products will go up and the demand for these products will go down. When that happens, Saudi Arabia’s ongoing transition away from oil will be complete. Also, their transition to their correct and deserved position in the world political order: a backward religious police state where citizens produce no products nor provide no notable contribution to modern civilization. And the country’s power structure will collapse. And every American household will receive a healthy dividend check. Saudi citizens have been receiving money from their government for decades, so they can live protected and unconcerned about world problems. It’s time for us to turn the tables.
It is difficult to believe that there are no alternatives available in the entire country to this Dark Prince amongst other young, educated, and worldly members of the royal family. He first needs to be placed on a severely punitive U.S. sanctions list to begin the process of leveraging his removal from any governmental position of authority. His days of being protected by Trump and Kushner are certainly numbered since their own future days in the White House are limited, as investigations mount and accelerate into their corrupt, criminal conduct.
Some things demand integrity above transactional relationships. That is the case with Saudia Arabia. The premeditated killing of anyone crosses the line of human dignity. For once, let the US foreign policy make the right, ethical choice.
1
I'm struck by how the Press elevates the extra judicial death of a journalist to a national crisis and basis for rupturing a major relationship. Our allies routinely conduct extra-judicial activities including Israel, Egypt (how many Muslim Brotherhood members have been summarily executed?), India, Pakistan, Philippines, and so on and so. Let's of course not forget the US. Perhaps most activities are not nearly as poorly and publicly executed. Do we refer to Netyanhu as a "Mad, Murderous PM"? I'm no fan of Trump and do believe that he is hardly a nuanced practitioner of foreign policy, but the thrashing about this one death is a function of the Press and politics rather than a real national crisis
Kristof tactfully avoids mentioning the role that Netanyahu and Israel is playing, in continuing to destabilize the region. Kushner and MBS are both relative kids, with Netanyahu the crafty old man behind the scenes, playing them for his purposes.
So called "pro Israel" thinkers in the US have long promoted "creative destruction" of the region as the way to promote rebirth and assure Israel's supremacy. A murderous leader in Saudi Arabia is the perfect way to continue the process.
MBS is not Saudi Arabia, and what's good for Israel is not necessarily good for America.
The only insight gleaned from soliciting opinions of people living under authoritarian rule is that you will get flat talking points. It's even a bonus for heavy handed leaders when citizens have a chance to further the propaganda, supposedly unprompted.
Such is life under dictatorship. And, sadly, there is far too much of that in the world for us to be able to make a dent in how other nations are run. If anything, the notion that America was going to free the people of Iraq, along with the failures of the "Arab Spring," has made democracy movements even less likely.
But we don't have to support the foreign policies of ironfisted regimes, though. In the case of Saudi Arabia, the US is just now finding resistance to supporting their ruthless campaign against Yemen, which we should never have gotten behind. And it is horrifying that our own treatment of Iran, under Trump, has been scripted by Shiite-hating Saudi Arabia.
We also don't have to treat brutal leaders as friends, and certainly not as role models. While we can't unseat the world's despots, we must not let that form of governing become our own.
Mr. Kristoff,
Why didn't you also ask the people you met about the princes and wealthy businessmen who were yanked by MBS away from their families and places of work and "detained" for several months for doing -- nothing? Obviously, these imprisonments pale in comparison to the brutal murder of Khashoggi, but they also clearly reflect MBS's thinking and methods. One of my closest personal friends is the principal corporate attorney for one of the leading princes arrested. He had also gotten to know Khashoggi through his work for this prince. He said everyone knows that the arrests were nothing but a shakedown by MBS for billions of dollars and an opportunity to "send a message" not to mess with him.
Perhaps the people who were willing to speak with you (a self-selecting group) thought it was fine for MBS to whisk prominent citizens off the streets, isolate them from their families for months, and fleece them for billions? If the people you spoke with bought into the "anti-corruption" garbage MBS was selling, that should tell you quite a bit about the quality of their opinions (or their willingness to tell the truth).
Also, on a recent trip to Iraq, I spoke with a member of our group who'd just been to Saudi Arabia on a tour. He said his group was told by their local guide that the reason for the arrests of the princes/businessmen was to combat corruption (the party line). So at all levels, people are buying into whatever MBS is selling, or else lying about it.
If we have leverage over the Saudis, why should we deal with assassin Salman? The moral thing to do (so, not Trump's terrain) ought to be to suspend U.S.-Saudi relations until Salman is replaced by a true statesman intent in replacing thugginess with solidarity, and where the thrashing of human rights stops as we speak. The only reason a violent Saudi Arabia can make it these days is attributable to our thirst for oil, a curse for their own people, as they are abused by a corrupt regime where the only thing that counts is money. And, as you said, the ongoing enrichment of Trump's family via the White House he now controls, and a complicit republican party, lost in their own labyrinth of tribal spite.
When 9/11 happened, I had two thoughts: the response should be a police action or a royalty negotiation. After going back and forth over this time, I believe the latter would have been the best response for the US and the Middle East. It seems that a non-negotiable elimination of the bombers families and supporters, i.e. bin ladens would have been the least costly path forward and signaled to all of the middle east that this behavior would be dealt with swiftly and terribly.
I was in Saudi Arabia and you can't relate or convey the country nor the Middle East in a video or newspaper article. There are many people there whom you can have a reasonable conversation with, and many of them are very friendly. In regards to MBS, he should be held accountable to some extent (but to remove him from power appears to be an elusive goal). The moral high ground? What about Bush killing at least 170K and Obama dropping 72 bombs per day for all of 2018? How many did he kill? Maybe, Mr. Kristof, you should write an article about that!
1
Rare pith:
The Saudis have treated us like body guards, and we have treated them like gas station attendants. Loved that!
MBS cannot apologise for that would be an admission of guilt. But he could say that the Kashoggi death in such circumstances causes him grief and that he will spend three years living in as modest a manner as he can, and sell his boats and palaces and paintings and treasures (not the money, just the stuff, about a billion bucks worth, if not two) and use it for Yemeni children.And actually do both things. Nos as propaganda. As penance. As a way to say that he understands that he overstepped and is willing to put some skin in the game and actually do penance, penance with a manly but not inhuman measure of pain, something his religion might well have a place for. The result would be a more human MBS and a world more willing to forgive him and believe in Saudi Arabia's modernisation move away from oil, which will benefit his countrymen and women and lead the way into new technologies and new social design, setting an example for many other countries. I know, dream on.
The civilized world has no doubt whatsoever that MBS, the Saudi Crown Prince, ordered the mutilation murder of Kashoggi, a legal immigrant to the United States of America, and a Washington Post journalist.
Most Americans accept this fact as well, but regardless, as is nearly always the case, American memories are short, and seem to dissipate altogether, when the possibility of financial loss may be affected by these memories.
Trump is a reflection of the portion, (a very large group), of the electorate who put him in office, and continue to rabidly support him in spite of the outrages he perpetrates daily on Americans and people everywhere on the planet.
These last two years there hasn't been one day wherein the Trumpist Regime has not had a deliberate deleterious effect on humanity, one glaring example being the aid given the Saudi government in the war in Yemen, aid in the form of American built bombs and aircraft, as well as targeting assistance, killing and maiming tens of thousands of Yemenis.
Trump was always a sociopath, devoid of anything related to empathy, consequently not even able to understand the suffering of others. He needs to be declared a danger to society, irredeemable, and belongs in a high security facility for the criminally insane.
As for those who support this regime which has ruined our reputation worldwide, I suggest a long hard look at yourselves, and start thinking about how you want your children and grandchildren to remember you.
Trump and his fellow Republicans sell to the highest bidder. Those in power in the GOP appear to care little about murder and genocide. They do not care about such things as reasonable efforts to promote domestic gun control, rational efforts to curtail climate change, or halting arms sales to Saudi Arabia to stop the war and mass starvation in Yemen. In fact, considering their sustained efforts to kill the ACA, it seems they could care less about the health and welfare of their own citizens, provided enough of us remain simply to continue working for them.
Yes, we should put an end to arms sales to the Saudis to end the senseless killing in Yemen, but the root of our problems is that to make real progress, on pretty much anything, we need to ensure Democrats regain power. To do that, Democrats need to vote in full force. If they can manage to do that one thing, then our problems will be solved. Not all of them, but a lot of them. Every Democratic voter can work to ensure we achieve that outcome, and we can all begin (and continue) that work right now.
1
Let the Russians sell them weapons. If that happens, then it's clear that the Saudis will buy arms from anyone, even if that anyone is aligned with Iran. You made it clear why Trump would support the Saudis, even if they harmed a New York Times reporter such as yourself. (Please be careful.) Trump never does anything without personally benefiting himself. The Saudis finance lobbyists staying in Trump's hotel. They buy his condos at inflated prices. Who know what they do for Jared? Hopefully, this will be uncovered in the next two years. It's clear Trump surrounds himself with crooks: Cohen, Manafort, Price, Pruitt, and Zinke. Let's see if the Saudis are added to the list.
The US needs to make clear to the Saudis that M. B. S. is not Saudi Arabia. And it wasn't just the murder, it was the depravity of the torture and the murder. No country whose goal is modernity should allow anyone, especially a Head of State to be above the law. America is struggling, to a lesser degree with that same problem now. No doubt there are others in the Royal Family who have the ability to lead who aren't vile degenerates. The US has the capacity to demand M. B. S. be held accountable for the murder. It also has means to stop the genocide in Yemen. The only thing that is lacking is presidential leadership.
The author makes it perfectly clear that America has treated the Saudis as gas station attendants and they have treated the U.S as bodyguards. This has been going on as long as I've been alive 60 years. But somehow all comments focus on Trump and his son-in-law. America's policies haven't changed on Saudi Arabia they've always been given a free pass. Unbelievable probably Trump had him killed and his son-in-law cut him up.(LOL)
"Some Saudis kept trying to suggest to me that if we block weapons sales to Riyadh, the kingdom will turn to Moscow. That’s absurd."
Putin and MBS enthusiastic press murderers high fiving at the G20 summit seems to disprove that viewpoint.
But real issue is why weapons sales that profit a few corrupt US weapons manufacturers would drive US foreign policy vs. the central principle of US democracy, a free press.
Saudis are an ruthless, theocratic dictatorship whose ends and means are the opposite of the principles of free press, freedom of religion, democracy, equal rights and equal opportunity.
It was Saudis who led the embargo of oil to US twice. Saudis who lead support for Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden. Saudis who manipulate oil prices to keep US dependent on Middle East oil.
Saudi Arabia is an enemy of US based on the facts.
When you asked "people" in Saudi Arabia who did you talk to? Saudi Arabia is a country filled with non-Saudis. The bulk of their labor is imported. Wealth inequality in that country is stunning even by US standards.
Saudi Arabia's attempts at attracting western businesses and creating technology centers to diversify itself from oil, is hampered by the fact they still have oppressive social and civil rights policies dictated by religious extremists. To date the only reason why they've gotten so much attention is because they can buy the favors from institutions like MIT, NYU, Google and Microsoft. Khashoggi's murder is the most high profile atrocity because it was a US resident, but Saudi Arabia beheaded some 48 individuals in November, according to Human Rights watch foreigners are mostly like to be executed under Saudi law ... for obvious reasons. Foreigners aren't accustomed to living in a medieval society.
So in the near term the Royal family can buy their way through America's corridors of power and they will be successful so long as Americans are willing to turn a blind eye to the reality that is the Kingdom of Saud. After all we now see how cheap American morality really is.
I have been disgusted by our Country’s fawning to Saudi Arabia and the other oil rich Middle East countries for years. They have all raised 2 generations of revolting “Great Gatsby” entitled rich boys, and they have not invested in educating their children, or building infrastructure to support a sustainable economy or country, besides malls, and ostentatious displays of wealth built by foreign workers working in servitude.
They work hard at destabilizing the region, for their own extreme religious views.
A pox on all of them.
SA can't defeat a militia in Yemen? America can't defeat a militia in Afghanistan, or Syria, or Iraq. On that basis, SA would do much better asking the Russians for military support and advice.
As trendy and sleek as the espresso bars, boutiques, and women driving cars, this country is not leaving the 17th century any time soon. Religious zealotry continues to spread, having already infected central Asia, western Pacific, and Africa. For a look at some of the worst outcomes, check Afghanistan's progress and observe how well the Taliban are doing at governance. Think Mr. Khashoggi's killing is as low as they will go? Our worst Saudi nightmare has yet to happen.
Wasn't it gruesome enough when the Trump crime family went all google eyed at the orb?
Saudi Arabia wants a seat at the table with the Western economies, U.S., EU, Russia, and with China. That will not happen until there is transparency in the Saudi economy, fossil fuel revenues, and where the rest of untold trillions in various currencies are sleeping. Until daylight penetrates this kleptocratic theocracy, everything else is wishful thinking.
1
The US is just as guilty for what is happening in Yemen as the Saudis. Mr. Kristof is not doing oppressed people who are being starved and murdered any favors when he whitewashes the people involved in it.
The United States has a decades-long policy of supporting oppressive dictatorships. We have never used our considerable leverage to get them to ease up on the torture, murder, and imprisonment. The reason has always been imperialism: we need them to act as buffers against the other side. None of our presidents has ever seemed to realize how weak this makes us look. Trump just makes the admission official.
1
Two months prior to Khashoggi's brutal murder, Canada's Foreign Minister complained via Twitter about dissident Sadie women being imprisoned, and suffered the wrath of MBS cancelling trade and recalling all students enrolled in Canadian universities.
All we heard from the Trump administration was crickets.
No doubt this non support from our allies emboldened MBS to murder.
Will America ever find its conscience again?
1
Bravo for daring to criticise Saudi Arabia while there. So women drivers are a big deal? Iranian women have been driving ever since the car was invented.
A reappraisal of U.S. policy towards Saudi Arabia and Iran is long overdue. But the Saudis and Israelis want to keep my country on its knees. This isn't going to end well.
Why we side with and support Saudi Arabia at this time is beyond me. They have absolutely nothing to offer the world of today and tomorrow, being stuck in a medieval culture that barely crawls forward into modernity.
We should abandon that barbaric kingdom with their contempt for human rights and all that is civilized.
In fact, a turn towards rapprochement with Iran would better serve our future interests in the region, and support an eventual move back towards democracy and a resurgence of western values. Not only in Iran, but around the entire Middle East.
Fat chance of that happening though, as the military and oil dollar interests will most likely be too much of an anchor tying us to a doomed strategy of a bygone era when our energy dependency was inexorably liked to the rotten Saudi kingdom.
We have heard these justifications for authoritarian regimes before...remember Mussolini’s trains? This is a country whose power centers are tribes and oil, and neither tribal power or fossil fuels are the wave of the future. As usual the Trump administration tries to take back in time. Anybody remember Jimmy Carter’s solar panels on the WH roof? Remember when we used to look ahead? We need better allies in the Middle East, time to nurture some.
Unless law and justice is applicable to all citizens equally wonder what modernisation will bring to a country where the rich and powerful is always above the law.
Thousands of American soldiers have died protecting Saudi interests in the Middle East. How many Saudis have died for America? (The terrorists on the planes on 9/11 don’t count.) We should use our newfound energy independence to put an end to this one-sided, dysfunctional relationship.
1
No, no, no! Focus on Khashoggi, the death of one man. Focus on the utter savagery with which the murder was done. It was not an incidental murder in prison, which we might hope happened without M.B.S.'s knowledge. The murder was done at M.B.S.'s order, its coldblooded cruelty demonstrating that M.B.S. is not a man one can deal with on any human level.
That M.B.S. lets women drive in Saudi Arabia, that he promotes a more "modern" form of religion, does not signify a hill of beans if such contempt for human life and dignity is the price to be paid.
The caption on the image that illustrates the story reads "Saudi Arabia is a police state, but it also has many modern characteristics, such as an art installation on a promenade in Dhahran". Thank goodness we have modern art installations to make up for extrajudicial killings! If a few more smart buildings go up in Riyadh, we could even turn a blind eye to the slaughtering of innocents in Yemen.
Bottom line, Saudis, especially Saudi woman, are happy with MBS, and Kristoff couldn’t convince them otherwise.
Why am I not surprised?
Besides U.S. greed, we have for some inexplicable reason allowed Israel to direct our foreign policy. Israel wants Iran financially and globally crippled, so the U.S. complies. Israel supports Saudi Arabia's policy toward Iran, so the U.S. supports Saudi Arabia regardless of its behavior.
Thank you , Mr. Kristof, for this look into the "new" Saudi Arabia. Scary.
You say, "But people also seemed more afraid to speak to a journalist than before, and mingled with the oppressiveness, there was an aggrieved nationalism in the air."
This is how a reign of terror starts. The supposed "leaders" spread hate-anger-fear-Lies,Lies,Lies - death destruction. They make you believe that you cannot trust your friends or neighbors and that you must not say anything that might draw attention or your life and your families lives will be in jeopardy. Turn your face away from the truth. Pretend the emperor has clothes. Pretend your neighbor isn't missing.
The problem is that this just gives them more power. You may hide for a while but their destruction will eventually lead to you and your family because supposed "leaders" like this are demented. There is not limit on their insatiable greed.
The only thing that can/will stop them is people - average people - joining forces and consistently standing up to them in such great numbers that the "leaders" cannot ignore them are put back in their caves.
These "leaders" are nothing but bullies and common crooks. Do NOT be afraid of them. Get rid of them.
1
You know, Nick, the USA hasn't backed "the good guys" in a long, long time. It's always been about money and power, and half-baked GOP ideologies. Thus the advent of #45 in the WH. Until we shake off our dependency on fossil fuels, and embrace alternative energies and a determination to save the planet, we are a doomed economy and country.
2
Of the two statements here, both are only partly true: Kristof’s metaphor “The Saudis have treated us like body guards, and we have treated them like gas station attendants” is the way the Saudis view American perception of the Saudis. Many of us with ties to the Gulf Arab countries have long found that they really see us like “Rick” in the eyes of “Casablanca”’s “Signor Ferrari” (Sydney Greenstreet), as appearing to be “a tough customer” but quite “sentimental.”
We also find that here is little truth to Kristof’s “The truth is ....In 25 years, if we’re freed from the tyranny of imported oil, we may not need it at all.” As though our expanding military interest in Africa, Yemen, Somalia and the Red Sea countries has been about oil, or that our interests in the Persian Gulf would be any less because there was no more oil there to protect.
Consider that when Iraq last occupied Kuwait, the Kuwaitis already had more foreign revenue from investments than the sale of their oil in the 1990s. And it only took them two years to pay us for repulsing the Iraqis and rebuilding the entire country from scratch. The Saudis now have the same control of foreign assets that exceed oil revenue. In fact, when they have no more oil, they will not have needed it for a very long time.
10
@Bayou Houma
I guess the over $100 billion spent on exporting Saudi-Wahhabism must have been an investment.
8
It is up to the people of a country to decide if their life getting better, because of their leader, is worth turning a blind eye to the suffering, silencing and death caused by the same leader. The situation in Saudi Arabia is challenging since the protection of human rights is not part of their government and structure. However those of us in United States currently have a system that is supposed to protect freedom of speech, the right to protest and the right to remove (vote) public servants from office. Yes the Saudis who are benefitting now should not turn a blind eye to the murder MbS had carried out. And, we Americans, should all reflect on what more we can do in our own country to undo the discrimination, death and hate that our fellow citizens and much of humanity is suffering do to mr. trump and the republicans.
44
Thank you Mr. Kristoff for demonstrating moral courage on behalf of human rights.
1
One fact cannot be denied is that Saudi Arabia is facing significant changes just after the appointment of MbS. He provides reforming steps in all political, economic, social and entertaining aspects.
1
Like our current situation, the discomforting truth is that MBS is a symptom, not a completely rogue player, of the dark side of Saudi power. The Saudi citizens Kristoff interviews have likely spent their entire lives having to adjust, at some level, to the dark side of the Saudi empire. Their reactions are very understandable. They are not safe to leave, as the K killing shows.
7
In crude terms, Trump's base of support is more concerned with the the price of oil than bone saws and mass famine. He needs cheap gas more than MSB needs US weaponry.
Saudi Arabia's ability to affect the price of oil may completely offset the threat of reduced arms sales particularly if MSB partners with Putin to control the flow of oil. However, lifting sanctions against Iran's oil sales may greatly increase that threat because it also strengthens the economy of Saudi Arabia's worst enemy.
1
So do you possibly think that the princeling's secret police might have been monitoring your conversations with the Saudi citizens?
What do you think might happen to those folks whose answers to your probing questions might not have been sufficiently enthusiastic in their support of the princeling?
More to the point, do you think your several conversations reflect the broader will of the Saudi people? There doesn't appear to be any outcry domestically; the silence is eerily similar to their reaction to the 9/11 attacks by Saudis on the US.
Sorry, but yours and Mr Friedman's reporting on the promises of the Arab Spring, the winds of change that MBS would bring to Saudi Arabia and just generally the tenor of the land have not proven prophetic.
Changing a culture steeped in the Islamic theocracy will take a lot more than arms embargoes and words.
Change to the theocracies will only occur in one of two scenarios, both violent and both Machiavellian.
Either it will require arming and supporting a civil insurrection of dissidents inside the kingdom supported by a blockade quarantining the land, or it will take an invasion and subsequent decades of occupation forces. We are talking about generations of indoctrination that must be undone to bring about change.
If either happens we'll all be treated to opinion pieces denouncing the imperial reach of the west.
8
The leverage that Nick correctly points out is national security leverage (US energy independence, spare-parts supply, and back-up security guarantees). But what if the Trump family's main interest is Saudi investments in Trump family business projects? That would explain the continuing reticence in using the former to protect the latter. Unfortunately, Trump's soft-pedaling his customary bare-knuckled approach in both the Russia and Saudi cases leads to the conclusion that personal business interests "trump" the American national interest. We hired the wrong CEO.
12
@Bill
Exactly. DJT's pocketbook is our foreign policy.
Expose it, Mr. Kristof.
You've illuminated the difficult rationalizations of Saudi citizens who spoke to you. Now trace the bright straight line between DJT's pockets and the Saudi regime.
Terrific, insightful articulate piece. Thank you.
11
The main reason for Trump's support for Saudi Arabia is not his personal interst but America's security/foreign policy establishment. It took them thirty years to even start to understand that China is going to be a much more important strategic adversary than Russia. So it may take them a few more decades to understand that the Saudi's are no longer strategically important as America's main oil suppliers.
I never believed in the Aramco IPO. The company is much too closely integrated with the state and the "royal" family.
Saudi governments claimed to pursue diversification already in the 1970s. It never really worked and I am skeptical whether this time will be different. Projects like Neom don't give me much confidence.
I am not surprised that the level of oppression has increased in Saudi Arabia simultaneously with reforms. It reminds of the Russian and Chinese experiences in the 1990s: Russia combined reforms with liberalization and got chaos. China combined it with oppression and got much better results.
4
Let us remember how many good, but rebellious men we assassinated in our quest not just to keep the world safe from communism but to protect our banana orchards and our vested interests in Haiti,
Assassination is not approved of by many of our soldiers but definitely by some.
It appears that the Soviet Union built more infrastructure in its failures in Afghanistan that we have. Corruption by some of our contractors and officers has undone too much of our battlefield successes.
I remember the LTC, MSG, and forced but paid SP4 in Can Ranh Bay Vietnam who sold our brand new, improved M16s to the Vietminh. I persuaded commander to run down the serial numbers of 17 of these rifles still in their original crates.
All the rifles supposedly were in the Cam Ranh Bay armory. Marine intelligence officers told me to never trust any army officer who was involved in our 1990s insertion into Haiti. An army SF CPT told me he was ordered to work with the vicious Ton Ton Macoute in the building in the mountains of an ‘emergency ‘ airfield. In reality it was a cartel refueling field for drugs enroute to the USA. Sex was one of the biggest payoffs. Extremely sophisticated ladies from families 200 years were often favored but the high officers when warned would not believe they were other than highly creative semiliterate peasants.
In Yemen? Remember that Agent Orange was much about starving the Vietminh.
I stringly believe we should modify our support but due it with rich imagination
1
Nicholas,
The last time we deposed of a leader in the Middle East, it was Saddam Hussein in Iraq. We all know how that turned out. Even in Yellowstone Park, removing the wolves changed the entire ecosystem for the worse. There are some times when leaving natural enemies are beneficial. Leaving Iran without any local enemy other than Israel is bound to be a serious blunder. Being critical of MBS is important; suggesting he be removed may heap more disaster than one could think possible.
10
@Howie D
There is plenty of middle ground between embracing an erratic, violent man and going to war to remove him.
17
By way of the, Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia they have made significant investments in global corporations including those in the USA. One company is the Blackstone Group, (BX) a staunch supporter of DJT.
The issue of Saudi Arabia is complex, an entanglement of: Business/Money, Royalty, Religion, Energy-Oil supplies beyond money, Geography and Military Power.
They support Saudi students world wide. My guess is; those students will eventually become the agents of change, but it might be a generation or two down the road.
14
There might be change in Arabia in the future; profound rather than superficial. This, however, is impossible if Wahhabism still exists. It is the very ideology that produces Al Qaeda and ISIS and will produce more like them. But without Wahhabism there will be no Saudi regime and no Western support for the same regime. This is an irony as England had and in recent decades Washington has cultivated Wahhabism as a vital instrument in defeating those who look for a bright future in the Arab World.
9
I agree with Kristof the US must use leverage. But leverage is a mature adult word at odds with Trump’s orbit. Try poke, snub, belittle or vilify instead? Getting this administration to do anything sensible, insightful, clever or valuable though in terms of foreign policy, will be the hard part. You might as well sit it out for two years. We should be lucky it was Trump who signed the $100b trade with KSA. If it was Obama’s, it would have been thrown out by now, even before Khashoggi. In other words, respect, civility and world order have mutated into such scarce, fragile themes, often sitting in jeopardy on the altar of the petulant tweet. Everyday we live on the knife-edge.
Leverage? Totally. But I’m not holding my breath.
33
"It’s sad because on this visit, I found Saudi Arabia truly is changing under Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman"
Nicholas, What is sad is you, a journalist still supporting this murderous thug for whatever your personal reason. He killed a journalist and cut him into pieces and you are still supporting him. Saudi Arabia can never change, women driving cars is not enough. There is still no freedom for women nor any freedom for journalists. Modernizing the economy is enough for you?
27
@Padman
Nicholas Kristof supports MBS? Are we reading the same article? He is being objective and gives credit where due (as in very limited social reforms), but this is where the nod ends and criticism begins.
1
@Padman
One either has human rights, or they do not. One either has freedom or do not. It is the same ''degree in increments'' mentality that has led to the massive disparity across the world. (and why so many wars/genocides go on without much uproar)
Some moderately small works that may benefit some here or there some of the time, do not erase a murder.
1
@Padman Did you actually read the article? Did you read some of the numerous articles Mr. Kristof has written about Saudi Arabia? Nobody has been more critical of the "murderous thug". He is just pointing out that the Prince, like most human beings, can't be reduced to one single characteristic and there is more to it. Which does not diminish the outrage regarding his murderous inclinations at all.
1
Those comments from the Saudis you quoted are about as valuable as the statements you quoted from Iranian Jews when you visited Teheran a few years ago. (By the way, the Iranians spare parts during the Iran-Iraq war came from Israel and who's to say the Saudis wouldn't rely on the Israelis again?) With a gun to your head people will say anything you want to hear but it certainly won't be in their heart.
14
Regarding US 'dependence' on Saudi oil, there is a common misconception of how much oil we import.
The USA produces around 3.4 billion barrels of oil per year.
Our largest import source is Canada, at 1.48 billion barrels.
Saudi Arabia, our second largest import source, provides us with around 0.34 billion barrels, 10% of our own production, and about 5% of our total oil consumption.
We don't really "need" Saudi Arabia for their oil. It's really more about having a powerful ally in the region, one that depends on us for their current wealth.
The more useful discussion might be whether we really need such an ally, in that part of the world, and what would be the consequences if we reduced our influence throughout the Middle East.
71
@J Jencks
If America is an island you are right. We do have allies though and they do need that oil from SA. We don't produce enough to make shipments to them if SA stops production do we?
7
@J Jencks I had understood that we import even less than that - and in fact we also have been exporting oil - although I am not sure if is that "dirty" oil that needs extra processing etc.
2
@J Jencks
You may want to check your numbers. To be honest your numbers are completely wrong. The US government under the department of energy tallies energy production and consumptions and presents it to the public through the Energy information Administration (EIA). The website is at www.eia.gov.
US domestic fields are producing over 11 million barrels per day crude oil. We get get over 4 million barrels per day from Canada. The next top imports are Mexico, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq and Venezuela. US record oil production is chiefly due to shale fracking in the Permian Basin sitting beneath west Texas and New Mexico along with the Bakken field in North Dakota. US Gulf coast oil is starting to rise in production.
US as of last week become a net exporter of crude oil and oil products. We export more oil as refined products like gasoline and diesel than we do crude. That's because there's more money in value added products than just the raw material, sometime.
Then again, the largest US refinery at a capacity of 600,000 barrels per day is owned by Saudi Arabia. SA holds the US in check on the downstream as much as the upstream. If that refinery were to mysteriously shutdown, it would have a greater impact in the near term than crude oil production cuts would.
15
I lived in Saudi Arabia (KSA) from 2100-2016.
Kristof usually writes much better than this article, which I find glib and superficial.
I urge anyone unfamiliar with the history of Yemen to look much further than this article regarding the subject. The conflicts within Yemen and between Yemen and KSA go back many decades, long before MBS was born.
Kristof completely ignores the very substantial role that Iran's leaders have played in fomenting discontent and arming Shiites wherever they can, especially in all the countries that surround KSA.
This is an example of Kristof's glib and superficial analysis.
During the 5 years I was in KSA female employment went from 25,000 to 250,000. A new generation of young Saudi women is experiencing the opportunity for self-fulfillment through work, and the freedom from family constraints that economic self-control brings about. This process started under King Abdullah, long before MBS played any important role in government.
KSA has a LONG way to go before its citizens live with the kind of civil freedoms we enjoy in the West. But you will be hard pressed to find ANY country outside North America, Europe, Israel and a few prosperous Asian countries where people are truly free to express strong disagreement with their leadership.
16
@ J Jencks — 5 years in the kingdom would give you a unique perspective, myopic though it is. While some of the advances are laudable, Saudi as a culture is far behind Iran in education, science and individualism.
Engagement with an eventual democratic Iran would reduce if not eliminate the foreign Shia support and be a leading cause of stability and growth in the area.
Our current, unyielding support of the kingdom not only anchors us to a failed past, but also a dark future in the Middle East.
110
@JayKaye On a spectrum of authoritarian to open and based on rule of law Iran appears significantly closer to aspirations of open societies than Saudi Arabia. As Trump withdrew from the JCPOA president Netanyahu stated in a speech that Israel respects the people of Iran and desires good relations while cursing Iranian leaders that seek the destruction of Israel.
If the U.S. rejoined the JCPOA and worked with the EU to address concerns such as Iran's support for Hezbollah Mr. Netanyahu could have the opportunity to act on his statement and challenge progressive politicians in Iran to support joint initiatives with Israel to improve farming practices in regions will poor rainfall and access to fresh water. Positive steps could weaken the influence of extreme hardliners that seek to harm Israel.
President Erdogan of Turkey has continued to stress the value of Saudi Arabia and the integrity of King Salman and the government of Saudi Arabia in the face of evidence about MBS. This appears to be a plausible position for the U.S. as well. MBS is not Saudi Arabia. Some policies that he as advocated appear not to be in the U.S. interests such as the conflict with Quatar.
2
@J Jencks
Not sure where to begin by way of a response.
But let me start with your last para about people in Saudi Arabia being "truly free to express strong disagreement with their leadership." Isn't that what got Mr. Khashoggi butchered in cold blood? And, remember, he wasn't even in Saudi Arabia when he was murdered.
I won't take issue with you regarding Iran creating trouble, but keep in mind that the Saudis have been promoting their Wahhabi brand of Islam which has little intolerance for others and have created troubles of their own.
Didn't most of the hijackers that caused 9/11 come from Saudi Arabia? Wasn't bin Laden from Saudi Arabia?
MBS made some minor reform and allowed women to drive and work? What a guy! That's supposed to mitigate his intolerance for dissent, including murder?
The GOP controlled Senate, which seldom crosses Trump, who supports MBS about as much as--if not more than--he supports his children, just delivered a blow to the Saudis by voting to end U.S. participation in the Saudi-led war in Yemen *and* UNANIMOUSLY approving a measure blaming the kingdom’s crown prince for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.
These days, it is time to take notice when the Senate unanimously does anything.
[NOTE TO NICK KRISTOF: Going to Saudi Arabia, knowing full well what happened to Mr. Khashoggi AND knowing that the present US administration will do nothing to defend journalists? What are you thinking, Nick?]
1
Yes, "allowing" women to drive does represent "allowing" them some independence. When MBS is criticized, "allowing" women to drive has become a reflexive defense in the conversation regarding MBS's efforts to modernize the country. Women driving is window dressing relative to the legal and cultural restrictions under which they live. True modernization is equality of the sexes and even the US continues to struggle with this concept. I have not heard of specific examples of what aspects of Saudi life have been changed by this movement to "modernize" except "allowing" women to drive. The brutality of Mr. Kashoggi's death speaks volumes about the primitiveness of Saudi culture and has confronted the major industrialized countries with the reality of what they support or not.
105
"Trump’s bizarre defense of the prince reflects what has been wrong with the U.S.-Saudi relationship. It has become all transactional. The Saudis have treated us like body guards, and we have treated them like gas station attendants."
This relationship has not become all transactional - it has always been transactional! From the time FDR met with Ibn Saud to Obama when the war in Yemen began. It has always been gas station attendants and body guards.
I also find it interesting how similar the support of MBS by Saudis is to supporters of Trump in America -
“I don’t know why the media focuses on the bad side. Sure there have been missteps but the most important things going on are the modernization of the country and the diversification of the economy away from oil."
In America, but "the economy is strong."
34
I imagine one might propose that "our relations are more important than one man" - MBS. His resignation would be a fine first step towards genuine stability in the region, and in improving relations with the West. The future of their country is more important than this one man.
18
Thank you Kristof for going to Saudi Arabia and telling us truthfully how people see their leader. Of course it must be marvelous for a woman to drive now. But that also shows how far away the Saudis are from modern life. Here in Europe we’re trying to figure out ways to use the car less so we can help the planet survive. Copying the US, making our countries dependant on cars, has lead to uprise in France. The small towns and villages no longer have local shops. Instead there are supermarkets and jobs are beyond reach of walking. Public transport is non existant. People can’t pay a gas tax rise. So it will be throughout the world until “progress” is united with nature.
84
Be it North Korea, Saudi Arabia or one of several South Asian countries; don't expect people to tell you what they really think. How can they? They can not. The risks are staggering.
Further, Mr. Kristof interviews appear prearranged beforehand. Anyone with an understanding of truly repressive governments knows that such interviews are stage managed either by the participants out of fear or even worse, directly choreographed by the authorities.
When Mr. Kristof privately can have a chat with ordinary citizens in a non threatening environment his thoughts of what is really going on in a country are of value, otherwise it is just like watching bits of a painting being filled in by the painter's assistants.
23
@Whocares Yes, indeed. If Mr. Kristof had done his interviews in the US, with Saudi tourists/students arriving at the airport, his results would have been more believable. But then he would not be able to show off his great courage going into the lion's den. So there is that :-)
8
Using leverage with Saudi Arabia presumes there is in the US a political will to do so. There is not. The Saudi and Israeli (they are allies) lobbies are too powerful in DC.
40
@John Mack Yes, completely left out of the analysis in the article for some reason. The U.S. needs the Saudis to implement its two-faced policies in the Middle East. I suspect this has more to do with not wanting to rock the boat than anything to do with oil.
4
@John Mack
Is it all about $$? (the very needed 450 million $$ purportedly Leonardo da Vinci painting for example? --
the Salvator Mundi?) Is it fear?? and of what? (perhaps assassination - live by the sword, etc.) Is it about avoiding back breaking work?
The big question is why is it OK to do terrible things, create chaos/global warming/war/famine?
Oppression on two sides-- secular -- the state, and the supposedly personal -religion leading to salvation.
Does the US really have to sell weapons to the Saudis?(It goes back to Obama in the current round and before). Do we have to use so much oil?? (Real fuel efficiency also goes back to Obama,) Choices... we are all complicit or not.
Nicholas should have asked the people what they thing about what are the most significant changes MBS has done, which is reign in the religious conservatives. Now Fatwas can only be issued by government-approved clerics, thus muzzling those who have enormous followings on social media. And the religious police cannot make arrests. Now he means to break the 250 year old alliance with Wahhabism. The prince said women should not be required to cover their hair. He does not believe in rule by a literal interpretation of the Quran. These are giant changes that would remove religion from the law.
24
@Walker Rowe - The giant social changes in Saudi Arabia are real, but are unlikely ever to remove religion from the law, not in the Kingdom, nor will they ever result in a society like ours in the United States. Mr. Kristof had good reasons to emphasize the major flaws of Mohamed Bin Sultan, which ought to disqualify him from ever becoming King - but that decision is likely to rest with Saudi royals and princes. As Kristof head from young professionals, they are eager for more social changes to come - and if they mentioned cappuccinos and iPhones, he did not report it. MBS may rule like a wannabe dictator, but Saudi officials still received Kristof with respect and courtesy - hardly a feature of a police state. Kristof is not alone is suggesting that the day is coming when the U.SD. will no longer need Saudi oil - but at what fracking cost to our environment, where Trump's Environmental Pollution Agency sees no limits to oil production, offshore or in previously restricted locales in Alaska, beautiful coal, removal of restrictions to protect clean water, and oh, let Trump's successors try to deal with the consequences, along with exploding national debt and the lasting damage to our worldwide alliances.
12
@Walker Rowe - The giant social changes in Saudi Arabia are real, but are unlikely ever to remove religion from the law, not in the Kingdom, nor will they ever result in a society like ours in the United States. Mr. Kristof had good reasons to emphasize the major flaws of Mohamed Bin Sultan, which ought to disqualify him from ever becoming King - but that decision is likely to rest with Saudi royals and princes. As Kristof heard from young professionals, they are eager for more social changes to come - and if they mentioned cappuccinos and iPhones, he did not report it. MBS may rule like a wannabe dictator, but Saudi officials still received Kristof with respect and courtesy - hardly a feature of a police state. Kristof is not alone is suggesting that the day is coming when the U.S. will no longer need Saudi oil - but at what fracking cost to our environment, where Trump's Environmental Pollution Agency sees no limits to oil production, offshore or in previously restricted locales in Alaska, beautiful coal, removal of restrictions to protect clean water, and oh, let Trump's successors try to deal with the consequences, along with exploding national debt and the lasting damage to our worldwide alliances.
Still though, I look at Syria, and I wonder what you are suggesting should be done in Saudi Arabia.
Sure, Assad was and is bad, but are things better there now than they were 15 years ago ?
Are things perfect in Saudi Arabia ? Obviously, no.
But what are you suggesting? In concrete actions.
Maybe, like Syria, it is a world unlike our own, and we should just worry about making our own better. And let them have their stability and peace, even imperfect as it is.
18
@David Martin Things are as they are in Syria because of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. They wanted a pipeline through Syria. Syria (and Putin) said no. The Saudi et al response was to foster a "revolution" conducted by foreign jihadists. Of course the US backed the Saudis and loved having a proxy war with Putin at the expense of the Syrian people.
14
Thank you, Mr. Kristof, for delivering stories that no other journalist is covering, and certainly not the way that you do. You insightfully convey the nuanced complexity in each situation, with respect for the diverse views of involved parties, yet still make a clear, powerful call to action in defense of human rights. I am particularly impressed with your articles this year on the NRA and on the war in Yemen. You are a credit to the NYT and to us all.
93
We may not be dependent on Saudi oil, but what about Western Europe, or Central Europe? The North Sea is not able to produce Europe's needs, and other sources are not as close to Europe as Arabia, nor is there infrastructure to transport it. Saudi stability helps others besides us. Get rid of MBS, a tall order given his control of the security apparatus.
8
@TimothyCotter
IMO nothing wrong with nuclear power -- electric cars. Ditto trying to get people to reproduce less, much less. And make less plastic.
Did you know that even in Japan before plunging into quagmires before WWII there were democratic tendencies, e.g., manhood suffrage? But at the same time there was a tendency for overlooking the atrocities committed by government employees for some extrajudicial reasons. I would rather think the moral standard sustained by government officials is more important than systems purported to be democratic. (In our case the moral standard inherited before encountering the US was gradually eroded while learning the Western system.) If people knew M.B.S. can kill a person at his will, that is worse, which would have more dire consequences in future.
25
If collectively the rest of the civilized world could wean itself off of fossil fuels, possibly we could limit the importance, wealth , and armaments of countries in this region. It may a simplistic view or just plain burnout, but I suspect most of our citizens are sick of both keeping up with constant conflict and hearing about the expense of attempting to do anything to help or stabilize any country in the region, since at least the WW1 time frame almost any action in retrospect turns out to be ill conceived or has inadvertent consequences. Those countries inhabitants that prefer a twelfth century civilization should be free to live in one, isolated from the western world's democratic compromises and more crucially deprived of all the modern armaments that more civilized countries love to sell to them, so that their neighbors can't be threatened any more. If nobody needed oil for transportation and heating and the key supplier's influence and wealth waned, our foreign policy possibly could simply be: what happens in Riydah, stays in Riydah (apologies to the Las Vegas Tourism board).
23
@Kevin - it's going to take many decades for the world to get off fossil fuels. Should we just accept the immorality in the meantime? Waiting for the end of oil is not a meaningful solution.
47
@Stephanie Wood. Well we wound want them subsidizing schools! But of course our government doesn’t subsidize public schools very much. In fact school spending is going down while private schools, what ever their label, are taking more and more of our tax dollars.
I agree that we should definitely get out of the corporate welfare and war business. If we spent our taxes making our country work...roads, bridges, clean water and air and universal health care we would be stronger and happier.
But that’s just the point the GOP and it’s allies have been working against the Commoman man and woman since the 1930’s. And they are winning.
8
@Kevin Ironically Saudi Arabia could become a leading nation in the effort to end the use of fossil fuel because of its potential to develop solar technology, no? And wouldn't that leapfrog them into being a power player in many games globally? It's hard to imagine them being isolated in the future.
It sounds like what you are describing is a more extreme version of the Singaporean model for development and a roughly equivalent version of the Chinese model for development:
The freedom and lives of individual people don't matter too much so long as, in aggregate, the well-being of most people in the society goes way up over time.
In fact it may be possible to build a modernized society where practically everyone can order whatever they like from Starbucks and eat meat every day and *still* have Uighur re-education camps tucked away in an inconvenient corner of the country.
Ursula Le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" posits this kind of society. I suppose the Saudis are walking into it now.
29
@Michael
Just for your reference to Le Guin's wonderful story, "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas," your comment should have been a Times Reader Pick. A very astute and apt comparison.
One can say that Yemen is Saudi Arabia's Afghanistan. Even if Iran had significant control over Yemen, Saudi's interests would be hardly hurt. Saudi Arabia's involvement in Yemen is about as rational as the American involvement in Vietnam. The VietNam war killed about 1m Vietnamese. I guess the Saudi's are trying to compete with U.S. insanity buy truth be told, in human mystery they are fortunately second fiddle. If the U.S. seriously restricts the flow of arms to KSA,the Yemeni war will be quickly over. Even now there is progress. I guess MBS may see the handwriting on the wall.
24
I believe Mr. Kristof hit the nail on the head. The Trumps will have decades of Saudi investment money to look forward to by supporting them now.
119
@Shillingfarmer No, the Saudis will stiff the Trumps.
1
@Shillingfarmer
Will they be able to use the money while in prison?
3
"The problem is not only that M.B.S. is a murderer, but also that he has destabilized the region, starved Yemeni children and undermined the interests of Saudi Arabia and the United States alike. Everything he touches, he breaks."
True. However, that has been true for years. It has been true before Trump, before Obama, even before Dubya.
It was kicked off by the Persian Gulf War, which ended with a huge American presence bombing Iraq for a decade, sanctions killing half a million children, and Sec of State Albright saying that the deaths of all those children were "worth it."
"Worth it?" The 85,000 dead kids in Yemen are less than 20% of the dead kids in Iraq she said were "worth it."
The US has been deeply involved in the ongoing disaster of the Yemen War. We've been targeting for the bombers, guiding them with AWACS, and refueling them on the way. Meanwhile, we've been droning the place ourselves.
Just NOW it has suddenly destabilized the region and starved children? Not hardly.
122
I'm still completely mystified as to why the American government pretends that Iran is aligned with some "axis of evil," while the Saudis are our friends because they buy our military hardware.
If it hadn't been clear prior to the JCPOA, all signs seem to point to Tehran being governed by rational actors. Conversely, the Saudi Royals have repeatedly indicated a total absence of rationality, and have effectively implicated America itself in horrific war crimes.
It's not 1979 anymore, and it wasn't the Iranians who directed the September 11 attacks.
712
@ubique. Iran indeed has rational leadership; Iran is not a problem for the US, but both Israel and Saudi Arabia see Iran as a ‘threat’. And both these have massive lobbying in congress!
35
America doesn't need Saudi Arabia to "implicate" it in war crimes.
It's been committing its own since 2001, and its involvement with Saudi Arabia's was freely given.
12
@ubique You hit the nail on the head. The fact is we need an enemy "du jour" to focus our attention--the public--to justify, and obfuscate the atrocities committed by our partners in crime. We've given up trying to engage Iran peacefully; to do so would go beyond the vested interests of those we're beholden to including American corporate interests. It would be simple to say that our moral compass was drowned in a sea of oil; but the United States is a major exporter of gas and oil. Our complicity in Middle Eastern wars and turbulence goes beyond and is more sinister than oil; perhaps we need look no further than the profit motive?
24
I have a problem with the world's league of dictators, and the eagerness with which Trump embraces them.
Every picture tells a story, don't it. T envies their power to punish their critics.
102
@Susan Anderson Exactly how did Obama not embrace them. By refusing to back Saudi Arabia in Yemen? By backing the phony rebellion in Syria? By ending the Afghan war? By ousting Khadafi and replacing him with cruel factions, including the open conducting of slave markets?
Within a generation or two, chances are very high either the Saudi oil wells start to dry up or the move towards non-fossil energy drops the price of oil. In the long term it is all but inevitable.
So how far has Saudi moved away from dependence on oil? They are squandering their wealth.
Their future is Nauru, the tiny Pacific state which was the richest nation on earth 40 years ago, built on exports of phosphate rich guano - bird droppings for the uninitiated. Now the only industry for that denuded rock is to lock up Australian asylum seekers.
A hundred million destitute Saudis in a land which can't support them. How big a problem is that going to be in the future?
54
@herne
Yes. Saudi Arabia is a one-trick-pony economy--fossil fuels. That's why they're trying to cement political dominance in the region while at the same time spreading their wealth world-wide. They know their days are numbered as the planet weans off fossil fuels.
Remember the 'Davos in the Desert' trip many of our moguls skipped when Khoshoggi was killed? The Saudis are trying to invest in projects abroad, including here, with their oil money. Then, their ROI will have less to do with oil and gas going forward.
Frankly, I don't want a dime of their investment billions here. I don't want them to own one square inch of land in the US, not one single business in the US. I'm never going to believe the royal family knew nothing about the Saudi Arabian pilots, 14 of the 19, who flew into our buildings on 9/11.
But money, not morality, rules in the US and their money is as good as anyone's. Unlike the people of Nauru who just squandered it all, the Saudis are making big plans with their wealth. And, we're drooling all over ourselves trying to help them.
1
Herne
2-3 generations of a population that has lived like spoiled rich kids, outsourcing any and all physical labor or “distasteful” work to immigrant labor , many of whom are the equivalent of modern day slaves.
Let them eat sand. Not going to be feeling sorry for them.
People in police state I have visitedalso are very careful about their comments. Candor to a just met foreigner is not to be expected,
Of course they believe the fate of the whole society matters more than individuals. They are not Westerners.
38
@Jean Just how in the United States are the rights of individuals enforced when it comes to Afro-Americans, their murder by police, and their imprisonment? By a criminal justice system that uses plea bargaining to fill up jails?
1
Well said. I couldn’t agree more.
7
While Nicholas Kristof is busy asking people about MBS - I am curious about the odd realignments that it seem to be happening in the region. I was surprised when Egypt gave Saudi Arabia some islands - as a sort of token of thanks for the millions of dollars now being sent to Egypt. I was further surprised when earlier this year Egypt - with Saudi Arabia's blessing - asked Israel to bomb it's own territory (the Sinai) to root out Terrorists - to which Israel complied. Then if reports are to believed, Netanyahu asked the Trump administration to back off of the Crown Prince over the Khashoggi murder - because you know - Israel sees M.B.S. as a strategic partner. WHAT? I still don't know what happened when M.B.S. detained the Lebanese P.M. - but I bet it was somehow tied to Israel and to Iran. Really, with murder, and war crimes and regional rivalry, and interline conflicts - the best thing we can do is probably step away from the chaos...oil or no oil.
79
Nicholas Kristof, please come home. Your insightful, compassionate, and humane point of view as a journalist is needed. Please forgive me for worrying.
41
Of course America has leverage over dysfunctional, despotic Saudi Arabia. But using that leverage to promote human rights doesn't help the GOP's bottom line.
Also, I'm confused. Does it really matter which theocratic Middle Eastern country wins? I've met a lot more pro-democracy Iranians than Saudi Arabians.
76
@Josh Wilson What about Obama's record in the region? How was it different from Trump's?
1
Well for one- Obama initiated and signed an agreement that Iran agreed to and still adheres to. That agreement stopped an escalation of developing production plants whose centrifuges were producing radioactive materials easily suitable for nuclear weapons.
6
@John Mack. Dear John, the USA has been in thenpockets of the Saudis for a very long time. No one is suggesting that Trump is the first to play ball with the but Trump is the worse. Why? Because for him it’s all about HIS bottom line. The interests of the US don’t matter and neither do its people.
1
I love the boldness and fearlessness of Mr. Kristof. Kudos to him for attacking the issues in this horrible Yemen war.
Many people around the world prefer autocratic governments, especially if you are educated and follow the rules. This is also true of the US. There is an attack on basic democracy in Wisconsin, with limitations on the incoming governor.
But, there are also limits being placed on Republicans in New Jersey. Many Democrats will welcome the changes in New Jersey, but it is not a good precedent. We must support open democracy at home before we can be taken seriously and fix countries abroad.
33
@Anthony
The Wisconsin GOP coup d'etat is a fait accompli, signed by the very corrupt Koch-Boy Gov. Scott Walker. As is the entire state of North Carolina and other Republistan gerrymandered states.
The New Jersey gerrymandering idea is a proposal at this point...and it is opposed by the Democratic governor...and it would also be put on a statewide ballot before becoming law...and it will probably be aborted.
It's still a terrible awful idea, but it's not in the record books yet the way it is in Republistan states.
70
@Socrates
Remember Dave Weigel's immortal description of the 2011 WI protests? The Cheddar Revolution.
Many of us in Wisconistan and Michistan want very much to leave the Rust Curtain and rejoin the U.S.
It's not much comfort to think that things are still way less authoritarian than the Kingdom
21
I loved the line that 'modernity isn't just about cappuccinos and iPhone apps; it's also about human dignity and the rule of law." So true - there are many parts of the world (Turkey for instance, or Dubai) that appear very modern, in some ways far ahead of the US, but no one should judge a society by the shiny towers and stores. Underneath is repression and authoritarianism. You only get to enjoy the perks if you toe the line. THAT is why the Khashoggi murder is so reprehensible. Human freedom and dignity should matter more than material baubles.
115
Thanks Mr Kristof for reminding us that a leader does not have to use his consulates to chop people up in cold blood in order to modernize his country.
To any MBS apologist, I'd like to say that in 2018, modernizing a deliberately backward country like SA does not require any great genius anymore. At this point in history, we have scores of successful countries who are successful because they more or less follow the same formula. It's not rocket science anymore to develop your country (though it was certainly hard to figure out at first by the West.) In other words, the crown prince is highly expendable, and as resentment against him grows while he continues to kill and torture and oppress, it's hard to imagine him staying in power for very long when so many others within the royal family could competently do the job of diversifying their economy.
48
Mr. Kristof, you say that ”modernity isn’t just about cappuccinos and iPhone apps; it’s also about human dignity and the rule of law." In vast and increasingly larger swaths of global territory, modernity IS just about cappuccinos and iPhone apps. In China for example, neither human dignity nor rule of law have anything to do with the way that the country is run.
37
This line caught my attention: "Senior Saudis privately accept that M.B.S. ordered Khashoggi’s death but insist that the Saudi-U.S. relationship is more important than one man’s life." So long as it is some other man's life.
268
So, the Saudis sound a lot like Americans: "Sure, maybe he tramples all over individual rights, maybe his morals are bankrupt, and maybe he's incompetent - but just look at how much the economy is growing!"
Things haven't changed much since Titus held the first show at the Colosseum: give 'em something to distract their attention, and you can get away with just about anything.
227
Could be Trumpists talking, but what happens when the US economy really begins to implode, maybe midway through 2019, and even the most rabid rightwing, racist, anti-immigrant, and self-righteous among those Trump
supporters begin to feel a real pinch, as all Trump promises, bluster, and lies come home to roost. I don’t want to hear a single bleat of complaint from them!!!
1
@TM
Yes, give them bread (cheap junk food with subsidies) and circus (reality shows).
2
@TM "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity, there is nothing new under the sun." Oppression is a mean taskmaster.
1
Brave, brave Sir Nicholas. Why not go to Iran and ask the folks on the street why they should run Yemen and what they'll do with it when they succeed in seizing control.
10
@Ambrose Rivers
Iran actually has elections. You did know that, right? It has more women in university than men, a large, safe Jewish community in Teheran... It is certainly not perfect, but with support instead of aggression it has great potential to develop in the right direction. Saudi Arabia not so much. I know where I would choose to live.
2
@Ambrose Rivers
People talk about Iran like it's the devil. What they'll do with it?--maybe they'll fight the Saudis' allies in the other part of the country: Al Qaeda.
1
I would trust about 1 of 10 "opinions" you got in Saudi Arabia and I may being too trustworthy. MBS is the perfect partner for Trump and Kushner. Everything they touch they break, as well. Where is that brilliant new mideast peace plan? We have moved the embassy to Jerusalem. That certainly has inspired creative peace talks!
51
"It needs our spare parts and, more important, it buys our weapons because they come with an implicit guarantee that we will bail the Saudis out militarily if they get in trouble with Iran."
True, but more baldly stated, such sales are prepositioning of equipment that U.S. soldiers and pilots will fly, operate and maintain with Saudi flags painted on the gear and Saudi flags flying over the base. And that's not a new thing in the Middle East.
14
Each day we awaken, most of us ask WHAT shall we eat. We simply do not know hunger. Can you imagine daily asking IF we will eat? To think that we have the leverage to change this for hundreds of thousands, yet will not out of concern for our own economic benefit.
271
@Steve
Millions, literally.
28
@Steve
I wonder the same and more as I look down the street and see a gas guzzling SUV/truck in every driveway--two in most.
12
Welcome to an administration run by Trump, Jared/Ivanka and some of the most amoral people on the country. Shame on them, and shame on all the rest of us!
3
Seems like the chances of a religious revolt in Saudi Arabia akin to Iran in 1979 grows with every move to progress socially. While the royal family may see the US as their great friend and ally, chances are that the ultra conservative Wahhabists have different ideas since the US anti-terrorism campaign collides with their own global initiatives.
And if you remember how it worked when the Iran Revolution ousted the Shah we installed after overthrowing the democratically elected Mossadegh government, it didn't work out so well.
Then there was Pinochet, Contras, Saddam Hussein, Chiang Kai Shek and a host of other luminaries supported by the US who left their countries in chaos.
I thought Obama had the better idea, balancing in the Middle East while pivoting to the Pacific. We'll learn eventually who had the better approach. But I would be nervous if Trump, Pompeo and Bolton were on my team.
122
@Look Ahead - Agreed. If you think everything MBS touches breaks, don't look back, and don't look now. Which brings me to my solution to the immigration problem at the southern border.
All we need is a time machine . . .
2
Pinochet didn't leave his country in chaos at all —he took a country that was becoming today's Venezuela, and set it in the direction that has put it way ahead of its neighbors, including massive improvements to education and economy, when only 30 or 40 years ago it was way behind. He also stepped down from power 'constitutionally', leading to a peaceful transfer of power to a democratically elected government (which would haved saved Syria or Venezuela from a lot of trouble). All of this could have been done without illegal repression and killings, of course, and that is precisely the point in this article —modernization can't be a justification for crime or limitations to freedom, which are problems in themselves.
25
@Ignacio
Please don't open the Pinochet box. In his zeal to remake Chile, hundreds were tortured and scores summarily executed; uncounted victims stil unaccounted. Not for nothing was he indicted as a war criminal and held in the UK for months while that country with actual standards struggled with the due process that eventually returned him to Chile. Pinochet received more justice than any of his prisoners. Whatever progress Chile has made, they can thank those who opposed and fought and died against him.
2
Very interesting. But in one key respect Mr. Kristof adopts the same perspectives as most politicians in the United States, namely, that the United States, and the United States alone, has an interest in, and is capable of influencing, Saudi Arabia.
A more complete analysis (keeping in mind the New York Times' word count limit on opinion columns) would acknowledge that Saudi domestic politics and foreign policy also respond to myriad other countries around the world. European governments have exhibited the same alarm about Mohammed bin Salman, but none of them are any more prepared to employ forceful measures to encourage (force?) him to make changes or step aside.
More to the point, governments in Europe are as concerned as politicians in Washington DC that undermining MBS would jeopardize numerous efforts by the West to increase stability on the Arabian Peninsula and in surrounding areas. The United States is not unique in the dilemma it faces regarding Saudi Arabia, nor can it go it alone. Any concerted effort to encourage change must be part of joint actions by Western states.
Framing the issue as one that can be solved by the United States leaves things out. Apologies to Mr. Kristof in this regard: I assume he agrees with most of these comments but needs to distill his ideas into an op-ed length piece. But it would have been nice to see at least a brief mention of other countries' concerns.
32
As authorities discover the financial transactions that have occured between this administration and various middle eastern countries, including Saudi Arabia, I believe they will be able to directly link these 'investments' to favored treatment in our foreign policy. For the past two years Trump and Kushner have been running a garage sale. It's time to shut it down.
131
@markymark
You have forgotten about Hillary so soon? Examine her activities with the Saudis while she was Secretary of State and afterward with her 'Global Clinton Initiative'.
@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus: It was only a matter of time before someone would bring up the "but Hillary" false equivalence. The Clinton Global Initiative has actual proof that they helped people around the world, what about the fake Trump Foundation and the current investigation against it's very valid fraud?
3
@Sheila
It's curious that the Clinton Global initiative folded as soon as she lost the election and foreign nations that were donating millions of dollars suddenly ceased those donations as soon as it was seen that Hillary would not be president.
As for bringing up Hillary, read the original comment. People are blaming Trump for policies and practices that were originated or continued by the previous administration, when Hillary was the chief policy maker as Secretary of State.
Under Hillary's tenure arms sales to middle eastern countries increased markedly beyond
previous historical levels. Many of those countries do not share American, democratic values.
Qatar bailed Kushner out of trouble on 666 Fifth Avenue after it was more less blockaded by Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Emirates, with Trump's encouragement and much to the distress, however muted, of the Secretary of Defense. It did not look like a bribe from Qatar for influence, though certainly they are capable of that. It looked like a payment of protection money. Those commenters who say that Kristof's reference to Trump's personal business interests is too cynical are living in a dream world.
249
@XXX
How could anybody be too cynical about Mr. Trump's personal business and anything about it? The real cynics are not those who investigate and describe what he may have done, but his GOP enablers who don't see any of it as problematic for a U.S. president.
5
The only awkwardness is within the hypocrisy that is exuded from all sides - if we are to demand human rights within Saudi Arabia, and for them to stop the genocide in Yemen, then we should be demanding the same from China, or the Philippines, or ...
The scale of injustices and murder from the state is certainly on par, but they don't have oil, so we remain silent.
We can't stop the flow of smartphones I suppose >
34
The personal involvement of MBS will be hard to prove and should not be the main issue; Which is that the government of the nation of Saudi Arabia acted to kill a journalist that was critical of that government.
America became America in a revolution based on the right to criticize any government, and the founders made it the very first of our Constitutional amendments because it is that important.
Trump has made plain what he thinks of the pillars of our democracy, our rights and how much he loves Saudi cash, and McConnell and the feckless GOP will eventually roll over for Trump once again.
69
@rich I totally agree with what you. Additionally, this seems less about the killing of a journalist (I mean why aren't we still focused on the murder of Daphne Caruana Galizia) and more about a regional power play with Turkey using Khashoggi to push back against the KSA. I mean what were those stories last year about Erdogran doing money laundering for Iran and their more recent Oil agreement?
@rich
U.S is well known for its mass killing of native indian, pumping of Heroshima and Najazaki. Do not forger the unrestricted support of the most violent country on the face of earth , State of Israile. I believe U.S politician from both parties have to do more of cutting support to the rouge state of Israile than to blame M.B.S
Yes, U.S. support of Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen has made America complicit in mass starvation.
That fact is what confounds me about the Khashoggi muder: Was it just too blatant? Too obvious? It finally crossed a line?
It all relates to money somehow. Welcome to Trump's American foreign policy, with an essential assist from the soul-less Republican party.
144
@Alan R Brock. I think it has always been that hundreds of thousands or millions starving are statistics; however one man’s death is something everyone can relate to BECAUSE we can identify with one.
6
@Alan R Brock A media person was killed and the media got alarmed, and rightly so. The free press guards its rights jealously, thank heaven. Media are the bedrock of democracy and freedom.
3
That America is complicit in mass starvation in Yemen because of our relationship with Saudi Arabia is reason enough to impose sanctions and cut us free from this absolute monarchy in the Middle East. We no longer depend on the Saudis for oil, and within years new sources of energy, beyond solar and wind, will be widespread in the U.S. Why should we bend to the oppression of Middle Eastern potentates?. Despite the bizarre friendship of president Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner with MBS (follow the money), despite Trump himself siding with the Saudis after the murder and dismemberment by bonesaw of Jamal Khashoggi, a Permanent Resident of Virginia, a journalist, and Saudi dissident, we must free ourselves from the terrible reach of the Saudis in our country. No one can deny that Saudi Arabia sent 11 men to hijack US passenger airlines AAFlt 11, AA Flt 77, UA Flt 175 and UA Flt 93 , to attack New York at Ground Zero, Washington DC at the Pentagon and the Pennsylvania field where the innocent passengers of Flt 93 rose up and prevented worse carnage by the Arab hijackers. How much longer will our 45th president and his Secretary of State Pompeo and his National Security Advisor Bolton be allowed to value Saudi Arabia as an American ally?
286
@Nan Socolow
As long as we allow them to manipulate the system enough to stay in power.
13
"I suspect the real reason Trump and Kushner embrace M.B.S., aside from the hope that he will back their Middle East peace plan, is business: the belief that Saudis will invest in their personal real estate projects for decades to come."
That is exactly correct. It's the only thing Trump cares about. It's the only thing he knows.
461
@BlindStevie
I incline to think it's a combination of appreciation for past financial support and the expectation of its continuation. In other words, a profitable continuing business connection.
34
@BlindStevie
It's not the only thing - there's also their support of Israel against Iran which aligns with Saudi Arabia's Sunni/Shiite decades old battle.
6
@Stephanie Wood - is that an argument to keep doing colonization, slavery and genocide? I think we should strive to be more morally upright, rather than pointing out where we went wrong in the past. Getting rid of the totalitarian Trump, apologizer for MBS is a good place to start. Impeach or, at least, vote him out.
3
My grocery store tells me where my produce is from. I'm waiting for the day my gas station can inform me which murderous klepocracy or totalitarian state supplied the crude to refine the gas I'm about to pump into my tank. I doubt it will give most people pause, but at least we can't claim ignorance and innocence in our complicit consumption.
110
@Jim Duff The trouble with oil is that it's an awfully liquid commodity, and if you stop buying from a place which offends you, the international market will just shrug its shoulders and reorganize the supply lines a little.
31
@Jim Duff
I am also waiting to see when the labels on our prescription drugs list where the components came from, rather than list the name of a pharmacy in NJ or elsewhere in the US.
@Jim Duff
It used to be that the big tank trucks that fill the gas stations were from a definite refinery. Now they use the closest ones. You pull in to buy Shell, and you may be getting Amerigo, Citgo, Mobile, etc.
I suppose the average Saudi citizen doesn't criticise the regime, maybe out of fear or maybe indifference.
The regime will treat people fine as long as they don't become journalists.
23
No conversation is of any use when one of the most esteemed writers in the NYTimes states that President Trump and Jared Kushner are pursuing a Saudi Arabian policy for the benefit of their future real estate interests. That level of cynicism precludes a rational discussion of the issues raised and US actions.
5
@Ned Towle. But what if it’s true? There’s lots of evidence Trump is keeping his eye on foreign business prospects during his presidency.
182
@Ned Towle
It's not cynical to expect Trump and Kushner to benefit from future real estate ventures in Saudi Arabia. It's realistic. These two have hearts of stone and follow the gold, regardless.
167
@Marice Bezdek
I just find it difficult to accept that Kristof sees Trump's business interests at the heart of our Saudi policy and that he fails to even mention the billions of dollars that flow to American arms companies and the roll the Saudis play in balancing the power of Iran in the region. To me this shows a lack of objectivity and a personal bias.
1
So young Saudis may appreciate the "modernization" of their society, although it is a police state. Maybe we have the same thing.
Polls of Millennials can appear to show a lack of support for privacy or of democracy. More to the point the President doesn't care about the crimes of Mr. Bone Saw, so why should young people?
No one in America seems to worry about carrying a GPS tracking device around that used to require a court order after a criminal conviction. Those devices already get people murdered elsewhere. Bring this up in social company. You'll be asked what you have to hide. No--Today we don't object, because it's "convenient." Yet it is indisputable that some eastern US cities have admitted using phone and social media data to target "dissidents," especially African American and minority ones. Trump's campaign used your private data to target you with socially engineered manipulation. Government spying on blacks or "counterintelligence" against protesters used to mean war in the streets, but today people shrug. They don't even care that Mark Zuckerberg sells them out to the Russians, with whom we have had up to now a rather contentious international relationship.
Could it be that Saudi Arabia is just what we'll be in fifteen years? We're halfway there already. I think we can forget about that "leverage with Riyadh" and start looking for a mirror with which to behold the more urgent problem. The best "leverage" we ever had was living a good example. That's gone.
177
@Chkarles Coughlin.
,and start looking for a mirror with which to behold the more urgent problem. Yes Charles if people were capable of being truly honest with their mirror we might not be as deeply flawed . So many of our countrymen/women were and still are incapable of owning up to , or even seeing , Trump as the scoundrel that he so obviously is that they must be deceiving themselves . I highly doubt that very many Trumpists would be capable of seeing themselves in need of a good talking to . As someone who has "faced the mirror" and have been brutally honest with myself , I can say that it's not an easy thing to do and furthermore not easily corrected. Could we dare to hope that Trumpists take a reality check on "the Donald" ? Miracles, anyone !?
2
@Charles Coughlin
Gosh, I think I need unearth Aldous Husley's "Brave New World..." which is even more sinister than Orwell's "1984" because in a "Brave New World" authoritarianism develops insidiously through the things we use in our daily lives.
1
If we factored the cost of our Middle Eastern policy into the price of oil, we would likely have avoided a couple of wars, probably would have developed a far better transportation system, likely would have a better moral standing in the world, and possibly might have bought more time to deal with climate change.
940
@Mike S.
Please don't be so thoughtful.
It's very offensive to America's Idiot Belt.
341
@Mike S.
Yes, if only. If only Santa had looked at your wish list, we would be a better country today.
But then, if "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.
10
@Mike S. What is this cost you talk about? Saudis and Emiratis sell oil, a huge chunk of the proceeds are recycled to purchases of American weapons, they find reasons to use those, they have been attacking Yemen, one of the poorest countries on earth, for 4-5 years with them, for instance. Their oil company is called Arab American corporation (Aramco), so Americans hugely benefit from the extraction and delivery stages as well.
5
America's best geopolitical position will be to condemn MBS continually, wile not abandoning our relationship. At the same time we need to renounce our withdrawal from the Iran Nuclear Treaty and step up our interactions with the Iranian government to meet normalised relations, including economic trade.
Time for the Saudi's to understand we have the real power, and they best not tick us off.
82
We've entered a contemporary age of advanced technological modernity and conversely, we're quickly slipping back to a replay of the medieval epoch when the barbarians were the sworn heads of state and the ends justified the means.
69
"The problem is not only that M.B.S. is a murderer, but also that he has destabilized the region, starved Yemeni children and undermined the interests of Saudi Arabia and the United States alike. Everything he touches, he breaks."
I think Trump/Kushner are enamored of MBS because he resembles them, or rather, how they would love to be. Throw a few progressive or cultural bones to the masses --women drivers in Saudi Arabia, immigration crackdowns and condemnation of black NFL player kneeling in the US--but increase authoritarian acts.
Because Trump/Kushner have no use for American "values," they find domestic criticism of the Kashoggi murder an inconvenience they must ride out to continue their unholy financial self-dealing.
As with just about anything, Donald Trump only views global relationships in terms of how they benefit his bank account or fit the social-political agenda he uses to maintain control over his base.
America has always had dubious relationships, accepting the bad with the good if the good is thought to help win a war or help a state's citizens.
But the MBS-Trumpian axis is truly special in terms of the havoc it's wreaking on both America's image and the Saudi people.
536
@ChristineMcM
Well said. The obvious transactional link between the Trump clan and the Saudi leadership is embarrassing in its blatant, undisguised and simple clarity that one would have to conclude that these wealth barons view the law and its supporters with contempt sprinkled with the salt of their obvious impunity. It's a disgrace and a blight on basic, human decency.
11
The U.S. has never used its leverage against Riyadh. Ever.
The Saudi Royal family, in the decades since FDR, has exerted outsized influence over U.S. politicians and businesses, forging alliances that, for the most part, escaped public scrutiny until Jamal Khashoggi's savage murder. That influence has included members of both political parties equally through direct lobbying and indirect lobbying through such companies as Bechtel Corporation, Booz Allen, Bain Capital, Big Oil, etc. Have we forgotten the connection between the likes of Caspar Weinberger to Bechtel? How about Dick Cheney and Halliburton? Yes, the same Halliburton that is bringing down Ryan Zinke today.
Money and politics bring rot. Rot brings out all that is ugly and, today, we've got plenty of ugly and stinky right in front of us.
What Saudis think of their murderous prince is immaterial. It's what they do about him. What we think of what Saudis think is also immaterial. What matters is that we look at our corrupt politicians and their meaningless statements and actions. Have we renounced our relationship with Saudi Arabia until such time as MbS is demoted, tried, and punished? No? Thought so.
--
Things Trump Did While You Weren’t Looking
https://wp.me/p2KJ3H-2ZW
378
@Rima Regas
A few of the children (Senators) are now saying “ The emperor has no clothes.” Senate resolutions condemning the Yemen war and affirming MBS’s responsibility for the Khashoggi assassination undercut T’s posturing in a powerful way. And now the Pentagon has billed Riyad $300 M for inflight refueling. Of course, that is chump change at the international level, but the trend is clear: the GOP is finished with T and they will not lift a finger to help him escape the tightening noose of investigations and public condemnation. Indeed, imitating a weathervane, the GOP will soon renounce any connection to T.
7
@Texas Trader
That was an easy one to pick, if the Senate GOP needed to find some way of showing the public that they are independent. But don't be fooled. McConnell's caucus is squarely in support of Trump. There is no chasm that is opening.
52
@Rima Regas, thanks for stating that, "What matters is that we look at our corrupt politicians and their meaningless statements and actions." The mainstream press' heaping of praise on the Senate for "strongly rebuking" Trump and Saudi Arabia is ridiculous, because they know Trump will veto any bill they do manage to send him, and the War Powers Resolution's ability to stop a war is doubtful, and has never been tested.
4