***“I cannot understand why she weakly undertook in the Commons to get further legal assurances from the E.U.,” he (Peter Ricketts, former head of Britain's Foreign Office) of wrote on Twitter. “Setting herself up for failure that further diminishes the UK.”***
PM May appears to me to have been in two minds for a long time. One has been a concern about the unavoidable consequences of the UK leaving its current terms of EU membership; the other has been a determination to prove she has done her best to keep the British Tory Party from splitting. Without keep both these features of her dilemma in mind at all times, her public persona cannot be understood at all. But if we try to keep both of those loyalties of PM May in our minds, we can imagine that she is every night, beside her husband, wondering how to broach and execute a second referendum.
"Patience and persistence, you've shown us" a majority of my fellow NYT commenters on these articles by Messers Erlanger and Castle might honestly now say. "Now we'd like to see imagination and uncommonly wise and courageous political timing for your public broaching of a second referendum", we might add.
And personally, I'd like to have my recommendation made public that the second referendum include at least three options, like, for example, "Brexit Plus", "Remain Plus", and "Moving toward a CommonwHealth of InTERdependent European Patrioticians" ...
One smells the unmistakable odor of Ian Paisley. His rancid ideas never really dissipate. Still causing trouble at the Irish border.
1
After 60 years of sliding down hill, the Brits have finally decided to jump off the cliff in a mass suicide. 'Bye guys - been nice knowing you!
2
I don't like the aggressive attacks on Theresa May. Let's face it, she's between a rock and a hard place, looking for unicorns, cut the women some slack...
2
brexit serves only its father, Putin.
7
Take a hard swallow, eat craw, and rejoin the EU - if they’ll take you back.
8
The countries that should be leading the world are screwing around with ludicrous distractions like Brexit and the disastrous Trump presidency. Macron's play for sensible leadership in France was undone by a combination of clueless tax breaks for yacht and private jet fuel along with a concerted social media trolling campaign, probably by Russia.
Russia is playing Coyote/Loki to undermine the stability of governments around the world, while China is content to lock down control of its citizens and investments around the world. Brazil has cemented its status as perpetual country of the future by electing a regressive strongman. Italy is still a joke. Middle Eastern countries continue to spend their dwindling oil money on expensive weapons to kill each other, while Israel turns itself into an armed garrison.
We are all fiddling while the world literally burns.
Humans are clearly too stupid to have nice things, like this planet.
12
"To make concessions beforehand might allow pro-Brexit members of Parliament to demand more." -- 'European Officials'
Not an unreasonable or bombastic prognostication in the circumstances as I have learned, from the NYT, of them.
2
Theresa May should accede to the calls for a new referendum. Now that the actual costs of Brexit are clear to the British people, they deserve to pass judgment on its painful reality. The original vote was based on pie in the sky projections of prosperity. It's increasingly clear that she can't cushion the blow with a soft Brexit, so let the Brits decide whether they are willing to take a punch to the gut or stay with an imperfect, but stable and relatively prosperous status quo.
5
It was a mistake for the British to join the EU and give up there national sovereignty to a bureaucracy in Brussels. A cautionary tail about giving up sovereignty.The down side of good intentions gone wrong.
1
Really, it boils down to this: a) everything the Leavers want from the final trade relationship is completely incompatible with an open border in Northern Ireland, so a "backstop" is required for that outcome; b) everything the Remainers want from the final trade relationship completely obviates the problem of the NI border, so a backstop's interim existence is a non-issue. The unspoken plain fact in all the Brexiteer noisy rhetoric is, that they just don't care about the Irish border. Give May credit that shey cares, but completely disingenuous to insist and persist that final negotiations can result in having an eaten cake.
Call for a revote. This time the Brexiteers will have some hard facts on their side - the UK is not united in this folly, the country will loose billions, and they most certainly do not have the upper hand. Johnson and Farage will have a very hard time this time around convincing the gullible.
3
You are in a bad marriage and your spouse tells you, you will have to pay if you insist on a divorce. He is constantly cheating and takes advantage of you. He refuses to negotiate a fair divorce pact and insists that you be punished. Does this scenario make you feel like you should stay married? The sooner the British exit the EU, the better for the British people. My advice would be for Greece, Italy, Spain, and Hungary to exit also.
1
Referendum 1.0: "Since we've been told there's only 1 bullet in the Brexit chamber, do you want to play Russian roulette?"
Referendum 2.0: "Now that we've learned that actually there are 5 bullets in the chamber, do you really REALLY want to play Russian roulette??"
But why is May so desperate for Brexit? What advantage will going it alone actually confer aside from fancy new tariffs? Losing the legislative weight and the respect of a unified Europe in international dealings can't be helpful.
If they back off now they can continue with their alliances, if not their reputation, intact.
3
May's robotic 'keep calm and carry on' technique has been bizarre from the off. She's an idea-free zone. And by surrounding herself with dubious figures from Fox and Davies to Johnson and Gove, she has ensured that nothing sensible has been said or done. The 'omnishambles' of the non-planning stage during which they were supposed to be working out a plan has given way to more nonsense. It is now entrenched.
This fiasco is not, however, something that needs looking at in granular detail. Brexit is wholesale lunacy. We don't need to count the ways it fails.
The EU has endowed Britain with prosperity, a good trade arrangement and innumerable collaborations - academic, scientific, educational, cultural. The EU has also held Britain's feet to the fire over environmental regulation. Thus anyone who'd been paying attention knew from the get-go that Brexit was an abominable idea - even if Cameron hadn't pushed it for selfish, party-led reasons. And since then, we've learned that Leave is corrupt (it broke electoral law; and there are new investigations by the UK National Crime Agency into its funding). Brexit's champions, such as Farage and Banks, are friends of the the alt-right. It's no accident that both have been photographed with Trump.
A second referendum is one way out, even if risky. Some 1.4 million young Britons are now newly able to vote. Given the total unworkability of ANY Brexit, I feel the chance needs to be taken.
13
May did not propose a renegotiation of her earlier agreement. Juncker's referring to her idea for a memo of understanding on the backstop as "negotiation" was a careful pose.
He would like to see Britain vote down May's plan in hopes that Article 50 will be rescinded. He doesn't believe that Britain might go for a No Deal Brexit when faced with the prospect of never-ending Brexit negotiation.
1
Perhaps a second referendum, one that allows British retirees living in other parts of Europe to vote, will help resolve the issue.
Whether you agreed or not with May's Fabian strategy of delay, evasion and obfuscation it had some logic to it but over the last two weeks she has seriously lost the plot. There is no way the EU is going to allow the British to unilaterally walk away from the backstop, that's why it's called the backstop. Thus all talk of the British obtaining legally binding language to overturn the legally binding backstop is nonsense. Thus the bill cannot pass the commons and is effectively dead. Hard to believe May or at least her more savvy advisors don't know this. The British are trapped so the sooner May starts looking for an escape route like a re-run of the referendum the better.
16
The Edwardian days of 'Cable cut, Continent Isolated' are long, long over. Though you would never think so listening to Boris and the rabid Leaves with there MBGA nonsense.
May, call off your Article 50 invocation. The EU Court has just thrown you the lifeline to do so.
15
The UK is now on the brink of a self-inflicted Brecession driven by small men (Farage, Johnson, Gove), large tabloids and foreign interference. Personal ambition, spite and increased circulation have carried the day.
23
David Cameron should have considered the Good Friday agreement, which Britain signed on to, before holding a Brexit vote. It was the height of irresponsibility.
16
In slow motion, Great Britain is becoming little, tiny little England.
She has done her best, which wasn't much because she was dealt a very, very bad hand. But you cannot do more for the pack of fools that constitute the Conservative Party.
The UK could well break apart over this. Scotland will go its way, Northern Ireland will be pressed between Protestant bigotry and the siren call of the EU across its southern border and Wales will have a whale of a time surviving hoisted on the petard of an impoverished little England.
17
The first action UK should take once their action of withdrawal is finalized is to notify the EU that the UK is withdrawing from Nato. Let the EU now understand they can be treated with scorn just as they have treated the UK throughout this entire difficult Brexit ordeal. The UK never had any intent to hurt the EU, just exit with agreeable fair terms, but the EU has made it difficult, has been deceiving, and has been arrogant in their actions. My opinion of the EU has changed considerably over the past two years. The EU better beware that through their actions their friends may soon be only east of the Atlantic Ocean.
1
@Me Too
No they wanted to enjoy all the benefits of membership of the single market and customs union while escaping its obligations. They admitted it. Their foreign secretary said they wanted to have their cake and eat it. That was never going to happen.
As for your suggestion that the UK should quit the totally separate NATO on which it's heavily dependent for its own security against Russia and international terrorism (and probably the most reliable supporter of the US) why don't we just that speak for itself as a guide to your understanding.
18
@Me Too
This is a rhetoric of Conservatism/Right wing opinion.
We already had many of our own rules (keeping the £) and then we asked to leave. Living and travelling all over Europe, the people outside of the UK, felt hurt and shocked. We have many decades of anti-EU rhetoric.
Basically, we want to hang on to the coat-tails of America. We are NOT European.
I smile as I write this, that we are now isolated. I cry as I write this, and as a Londoner and a Scot, feel that I have 3 identities. 1. London, where I live, staunchly for EU and immigration. 2. Scotland, staunchly left wing, wishing to leave the Union, and I now agree. 3. Feeling frankly disgusted and in despair, that the fear of immigration was, and is, the no 1 reason for people to vote to Leave.
In despair. We will not leave Nato. Ever.
2
It has become increasingly clear to many British people, even those lacking brilliance, that any form of Brexit would be a disaster. As a citizen of Ireland, I know all too well how British nationalism and the feeling of being superior to other nations can make Britons blind to certain political realities. Tony Blair has called for a second referendum. I hope he succeeds in this endeavour.
21
The UK was grossly misled and misinformed, as well as under-informed, when the Referendum took place. Cameron should have been more active in pointing out the positives of membership in the EU but instead the Brexit wing of the Conservative party, led by Johnson and Gove, were the most vociferous and won the day.
The two major complaints about membership in the EU were cross-border movement, even though the UK was not a member of the Schengen agreement, and the loss of sovereignty of the UK's laws.
No-one on the Remain side pointed out strongly enough all the complications and inter-dependence of the UK's relationship with the EU. We are now facing a possible hard Brexit and the resulting chaos that will ensue.
Clearly, it is time for Referendum 2.0. Mrs. May must to say to the people: "Now that you know what the complications are and what we will lose with Brexit, and especially a hard Brexit, ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE that you want to go ahead with Brexit?" and the only way she can do that is to set up Referendum 2.0.
10
@RADF From your lips to God's ears. Grow up, politicians, smell the roses, get a grip, and make the decision to ask the people again.
The disgust I feel towards politicians, who abdicate responsibility, a la Cameron, and Corbyn, makes me furious.
3
And to think, the British brought this all upon themselves.
9
@Purple Spain
Yes, we did. As a Londoner and a Scot, and having lived in Spain, I feel I need to wear a badge, saying, I VOTED REMAIN. Sorry, for the xenophobes and supposed exceptionalism of our right wing population.
1
Putin started it
1
Time for Referendum 2.0
7
It seems to me that Mrs May is negotiating from a profoundly weak position that goes back to a profoundly flawed referendum. The often quoted figure of 52% in favour of Brexit, while presumably legally allowable, is still and always will be, only 37% of the UK electorate. It is hard to see how a leader with any integrity can consider that to be a legitimate mandate for such a destructive act.
Statement of personal interest... One of my most valuable documents is a UK passport that says across the top of the front cover: European Union.
16
Excellent comments reflecting the quandary in which GB finds itself. There are thee or four things we can learn from this situation: a) Referendums are not magic solutions to hard political situations, especially when there is not a clear majority favoring a decision, b) Many politicians in GB had no idea of the level of entanglement between the British and the EU economy, c) The Labour party is as confused and hesitant about the correct course of action as many moderates in the Conservative party, d) The only group with clear ideas about Brexit are the right-wingers within the Conservative party, the main responsible for this mess, but the ones who knew what they want.
4
@J. Parula I don't entirely agree.
Referendums are not magic solutions, true. But it's not correct to say that the "only group with clear ideas about Brexit" are the far right of the Tory party.
First off: There is no clarity whatsoever among the far right of the Tory party. They may be rigidly pro-Brexit, but not one has come up with a single plan for achieving it that 'works'. Brexit is unworkable in any case, but Rees-Mogg and the rest of the arch-Brexiteers can't even make a pretence of knowing how to make it happen without sparking imminent national implosion.
Secondly, most Labour MPs and a number of Tory MPs are pro-Remain, and the SNP is Remain almost in toto. Various voices in these parties have been very clear indeed on why EU membership is critically important, such as Chuka Umunna and Michael Heseltine.
The spanner in the works in Labour is Jeremy Corbyn. He has both dithered and marched along with May on Brexit, providing no opposition or clarity - in fact, the opposite. Thus some Remainer Labour MPs have ended up voting to activate Article 50 etc, as they've been pressured to do so.
So please do not see Labour as a whole as 'confused'. It's not. It is divided, and Corbyn is the central factor in that. If Corbyn had questioned, analysed, doubted Brexit from the start - and most Labour voters voted Remain and expected him to - we might not be in this position.
1
@J. Parula
You neglected to single out the 34% of the electorate,
"Remaining Remoaners" who STILL know, more or less, what they want and are despertaely seeking a way to put the other 64% at their ease without cutting either the ancient 'Entente Cordiale" or Ted Heath's strenuous efforts to help late 60s Britons remember that, at heart, they are, and will always remain, European and welcoming of decent folk from anywhere people are Anglophilic.
1
Juncker is one of the most pig headed politicians in the western world. He bears a large measure of responsibility for the breakdown of democracy in Europe. That the other European heads of state haven’t called for his replacement is unbelievable. The destruction caused by his regime in obvious for all to see. When will the europeans wake up.
3
@JFC
Herr Juncker can at least distinguish between a person and her/his performance.
May was crystal clear, that what she needed was a three-headed unicorn.
What the the English want is for the Irish problem, specifically the North Ireland problem, to go away.
And in the bitterest irony, after almost 400 years, the sins of their fathers haunt them today, and stymie Brexit.
17
Fully half of the British public do not understand how insignificant the country is. The E.U. does not need you.
11
@HH: The UK has the second largest GDP in the EU.
1
Did anyone expect Juncker and the European "leaders" to be anything other than arrogant and condescending?
The UK will be better off with a trade agreement with the US and Canada.
3
@Frank. A trade agreement with the United States? Yeah, right. Ask Canadians what they think of American trade agreements. The UK is far better off in the E.U. than dealing with American bullies and their capricious tarrifs and corrupt politicians.
4
Here's an idea to solve the Brexit crisis, as they would say in New York City: fugeddaboutit!
(did I spell that right?)
8
I never saw the logic of having the British people vote on a process and agreement of which they could have no knowledge. That is what happened in the first referendum. Now that there is a (tenuous) agreement, there should be another vote to see if the people are still in agreement.
13
@Jennifer B Completely agree. The referendum procedure used by the Tories was meant to stir up passion and not to prudentially aid the British people from having a meaningful popular vote on exiting the EU.
The right course now is to have another referendum. Brexit as negotiated by May should be rejected and the UK should withdraw its invocation of Article 50.
Then, Britain, its government, and the its people should begin to examine the full consequences of leaving the EU, including projections across multiple models and present that information to the British people for another referendum. This is a right, reasonable and rational course. There is nothing preventing the British people from implementing another Article 50 trigger in the future, after all the effects are known with a greater degree of certainly.
4
End the indecision: have Parliament re-vote quickly (no referendum), with choice between Hard Brexit vs No Brexit, and with chief Tory advocate of the winning side to succeed May as PM immediately.
1
I’ve never understood why Great Britain voted in favor of Brexit. Is it nostalgia for the days of Empire, nationalism, go-it-alone-ism, or something else? At a minimum, it’s an example of when the will of the people gets it wrong. I think GB and the E.U. will figure things out before there is a hard Brexit, which would be bad for both.
7
It's not complicated. There never has been a majority in the UK in favour of Britain diluting its democracy and sovereignty by being placed under a political union with 27 other countries. That wasn't what the population was told it was signing up to back in the 1970s, but it's clear that's what the EU means now. The economic case for being in the EU is hardly overwhelming either - it's the world's slowest growing region (less than 2% growth in a good year) with which Britain has a huge structural trading deficit - and pays billions a year in contributions for the privilege. The UK didn't grow more quickly after joining the EU, and the share of it's exports that go to Europe has actually fallen since it joined.
4
Translation: as in America, more racists and suckers than anticipated.
15
@Edmund Langdown
Gosh, it is Nigel Farage, Boris and Rees-Mogg, all mushed up together.
We are the 5th largest economy in the world in 2017. I am afraid to look where we are now, or imagine where we will be next year.
1
It would be nice to think that Theresa May, who opposed Brexit, has some secret plan where she is being so spectacularly incompetent as a way to somehow kill the deal. But, sadly, that seems unlikely. May's continuing insistence that another referendum on Brexit would be "undemocratic" is an example of her continuing incompetence. By closing off -or trying to close off- the most obvious and legitimate way to ratify whatever agreement she makes, she is stirring up the hard Brexiters who will have her words to fall back on should another referendum become a real possibility. Another referendum to ratify the May deal is, in fact, the most democratic way to proceed. In 2016, Britons voted for an idea that had no substance and was little more than a fantasy. Today, they have a solid reality in front of them. It is appropriate that they now be given a chance to vote on the reality of what Brexit is.
22
This seems like a sensible approach. The whole is, as the Brits might say, a bloody mess.
2
@Shaun Narine
"But, sadly, that seems unlikely" -- but perhaps not completely impossible. After all, both Churchill and FDR sometimes got it wrong more than once, until they came to their senses again.
As this self-inflicted Brexit disaster envelops the U.K., what's striking to me is that I can't think of a single British politician whose stature has improved. Not a single one.
We don't necessarily need to see a new Churchill or Lincoln. But none of the players has impressed. Nobody has risen to the occasion, made a positive name for themselves, or done anything whatsoever to inspire confidence. And most of them, such as the various warm bodies responsible for actually negotiating Brexit, have been embarrassments. It's shocking to see British leadership so bereft of talent.
24
Nicola Sturgeon, for one.
2
No surprise. The UK needs to get over its superiority complex or its headed for third world status.
10
@Imperato - yes. not unlike America's MAGA crowd following trump down the road to ruin.
2
The difficulty in getting Europe to sign onto a Conservative intra-party fight (with Scotland, N. Ireland, and major parts of England ignored) is almost insurmountable. Why blame May? EU interests are best served in this altercation by staying away and accepting the (minor compared to UK) losses attendant on the inept Brixit so-far offered.
2
"Nebulous". Just like the crazy referendum idea that got Britain in this mess. No defined plan, no details, just wild emotion based on fear and nationalism. Maybe now they can take a parliamentary vote to repose the question to the British people. My sense is, having learned their lesson and realized how much the EU brings them, they would reverse their "leave" vote and put this whole mess behind them. Sort of like what America would do if we could redo the 2016 Presidential election...
15
Brexit is like putting a bullet through your head to remove a pebble in your shoe.
May's big issue is with immigration. Non-EU immigration far outpaces arrivals from the EU and is totally under the control of HMG which however has decided to keep the floodgates open. And even with EU Freedom of Movement for Labor rules, the government has significant restrictive powers that it has chosen not to use.
There is therefore no necessity for Britain to Brexit in order for her to be able to decide in her own full sovereignty to regain control of immigration.
Brexit is really a tragic insanity.
(Btw, Sir Ivan Rogers' recent lecture at Liverpool U. is must-read material for all of us who take an interest in Brexit.)
15
There is a clear way forward: referendum on whether to go forward with the deal May has negotiated OR to exit the Brexit train.
1
UK depends on the distribution center built with EU money in Dover. I would already be stockpiling food because whatever Brexit deal is made, Dover will be a chaotic mess.
7
For those pushing the Norway deal, the head of the community said they didn’t want the UK as they would spend all their time wrecking it, which seems likely.
Whole thing is a fiasco and it’s worth remembering that Brexit was a non binding referendum, they needn’t have done any of this.
6
just exit from brexit, and put everything back the way it was.. if it ain't broke don't keep trying to fix it.. you've got more important things to do in england.. fixing your teeth would be one.. unless everyone living there has an austin powers fantasy
3
@fard barfill except the british always have had an attitude of exceptionalism...they wanted to be in, but not 'in' the union...at this point the continent is pretty sick of their attitude!
7
Good. The British have been sticking it to people and nations for centuries. Now it may be returning.
8
Funniest video I have seen in some time.
Sad to be laughing at U.K's self inflicted pain.
I encourage them to take another vote on Brexit and stay in the union.
2
I hate to be a buzzkill for what is obviously a well-considered, not at all disruptive, plan to leave the European Union. But, perhaps, just maybe, instead of jumping off the cliff into oblivion, the Parliament could cancel Article 50 and announce that they shall remain in Europe. As a “make good” to the 52% of Brits who were willfully, knowingly defrauded by Murdoch, Johnson, Gove, Farage, et al, consider jailing these charlatans as well as David Cameron. For your consideration...
20
@Jim A
I couldn’t agree more. Politicians who just blatantly lie, should be held responsible for their lies.
The very day after the vote, Farage, Johnson et al backed away from their promises.
3
First, this Brexit 'vote' was only a plebiscite: there is no written constitution and nor about this loose federal, so-called "united kingdom". The people are not sovereign as in Europe, Parliament is and many perhaps thought, wrongly, they were voting for a position against neo-liberalism. But that defines the Tory party along with foolish nostalgia for a pretty nasty empire, second. The country is very unequal, the National Health System is under attack, some regions are poorer than Greece. Scotland and N Ireland 'voted' against Brexit yet the Tories cling to power with a hard-right N Ireland party, DUP.
Lastly, no-one has mentioned a general election and the legal possibility in early March to ask the European Court to set aside the Brexit demand. A new Parliament could debate it again; a new Labour Government could improve social services and wages. It could even debate a constitution, and put it properly to the citizens without the simplistic 50:50 counting.
Theresa May can't be specific about what she wants because the only plan that would have sufficient Parliament support would allow Britain to remain in the EU for trade purposes and trade customs purposes, but otherwise free from all other rules and obligations. That isn't going to happen.
50
A recent poll showed 40% supporting remain, 26% supporting May’s deal, and 34% supporting No Deal. There were no undecideds, and no apparent room for compromise. By default, the outcome will be No Deal, which will be terrible in the short term for the U.K. economy, and bad for the global economy.
5
A NoDeal may be terrible but very instructive.
A confrontation with the reality that It takes two to tango appears Just what the doctor ordered.
4
Going to a meeting of EU leaders and not being able to describe what you want..the continued journey from Great Britain to Little England...
38
One gets the sense that while EU leaders wanted to avoid the UK crashing out of the EU, they have concluded that having the UK do so is better for the stability of the EU than a more favorable deal to the UK. If that is so, Theresa May and UK leaders are now in a terrible position. They are belatedly waking up to the fact that have no leverage over the EU and must forge their own consensus quickly.
82
She should have brought home some very nice Trappist beer. May not be able to afford it after the disaster of Brexit tariffs on the same beer at her border.
18
"Theresa May Finds No Joy in Brussels"
"Brussels Finds NO Joy in Theresa May"
12
This is what happens when you cut off your nose to spite your face.
92
@Dave T. and an ear! Who is surprised by this?
1
When you realize you're in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. Stop digging, Prime Minister. Stop digging.
37
Ironic that the Irish question (the last of the colonies) comes back to haunt the British....once again!
63
@Jerry Not the last of the colonies but sure.
2
Expect the Scottish Question to also resurface soon.
1
Why does May want to see this through? It is an impending disaster. Boris Johnson and his crew should take over and be the leaders of this sinking ship they created. Then, when it inevitably flames out, they should be forced to walk the plank.
The only potential non-disaster at this point is to revote the issue and then withdraw the effort to leave after the results. The alternatives are just going to leave Britain in a long term decline that will have massive austerity measures.
55
@CA Dreamer will property values in london finally drop to acceptable levels?
3
A good summary of the Brexit process has been given by Ivan Roger in a speech at Liverpool University a few days ago. He negotiated for the UK with the EU. The speech can be found at https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/
The speech is of interest for those that want to understand what is/has been going on. It gives a lot of food for thought, and I recommend it to anyone.
23
@What'sNew
It was quite a heady stew, that lecture. It should be required reading for all Brits, from the politicians on down.
5
I recommend the speech for anyone who really wants to understand the complexities of the situation. I hope the Catalonians demanding to separate from Spain are paying attention.
6
@What'sNew Thanks for the link; it was very instructive of the problems the UK is now facing.As we say:" the devil lives in the details"!Having also had the opportunity to see the negociations with the USA in the latest version of NAFTA I can say that political stupidity is something we cannot disregard in that type of situation.The best way to deal with the present mess would be for the UK to revoke their "Notice of termination" to the EU and reevaluate the whole situation in the following years.If the Britishes don't stop digging in the hole they will be in hell pretty soon...
1
Parliament has forgotten that it is sovereign. Referenda have no legal power. May would be best advised to make the argument that Britain needs 5 years to strengthen its economy in order to enable Brexit without chaos. That’s the only argument worth making right now.
The naked falsity of the Brexit argument is seen in the fact that May had to go cap in hand to the EU. If Brexit is such a great deal, why the negotiations? The reason is that the British public is being conned.
63
The English/British have for a long time regretted their excursion into Ireland, not least since Henry II landed in Ireland in the late 1100's. Brexit and its complexities in relation to the the Irish border, which was enabled by the English/British in 1921, adds to 800+ years of English regrets for ever
interfering in the affairs of the island of Ireland - you've brought this mess on yourselves.
30
“Brexit means Brexit”. But of course it never did. The UK has three choices: remain, deal or no deal.
May supports the deal but seems rather the only one left to do so.
The deal ultimately means leaving but leaves unclear when and how close the ties will remain.
No deal is fueled by nostalgia and unhealthy yearning for a past that never existed. It’s also would throw the UK into a recession or even depression.
Remain makes most sense after the agony of two years of figuring out what Brexit actually means.
But unfortunately the country finds itself beyond rationality.
It has sunken into a quagmire of emotions, ulterior motives and mental exhaustion.
Only the people now can save themselves. A second referendum is the only option.
95
@Oliver Herfort
"A second referendum is the only option."
Perhaps it would be best to call it Plebiscital Consultation?
While I admire Mrs May's pluck, her tenacity has begun to look like blindered intransigence. She needs to get on with the vote on her deal as soon as possible, and then, when it's defeated, return to the British people. They clearly didn't understand what "leave" would mean. Their choices: remain or Norway+. The latter gives Britain no say in EU regulations but binds them to many, and I would guess most Britains would favor remain at this point. Recent opinion polls (including almost 20,000 respondents from across the land) suggest remain.
12
May could have held her vote on the deal she had, had it been defeated, then gone to the EU with a specific set of asks to present a more passable deal, and tried a vote on that. A logical set of steps where the EU wasn't being asked to negotiate against itself. It may have ended up failing again, but at least she would have maximized her chances for success.
This most recent humiliation was a definite own-goal.
14
This is not a loss for Theresa May. I really doubt she had expected a different outcome from her talks with EU leaders. She had to go on this tour to collect the expected "No changes" statements to bolster her argument that the current Brexit deal negotiated by her government is as good as it gets, at least from her perspective. In essence, she is now engaged in a monumental game of chicken with the 110 or so Conservative MPs who voted against her in the recent leadership challenge. Her two big arguments to have them come around are a rejection would mean an uncontrolled, hard Brexit come March, and the almost guaranteed landslide victory for Labor in the then unavoidable general election that would soon follow.
7
With people like Peter rickets (‘lord’ Rickets) blaming ms. May (“...of her own making”) I understand why things might, or most likely are going to crash and burn
3
Looks like you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Lesson for the voter - if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.
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With 37% voting for departure from the EU and 35% to remain, the rest having no opinion, there hardly is a mandate for withdrawal here. And before the vote, the description of the consequences of withdrawal were at a minimum unclear and even misleading. So one asks: who is pushing Brexit anyway? And why?
Suspicion grows that the whole matter is one of a few private interests with undue sway over the government. Now why can’t reporters dig up the facts about that, instead of passing on gossip and hare-brained reading of tea leaves??
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@John Brews ..✅✅
How few people recognise that irrefutable 37% figure! Yet it is the crucial number proving there was never a legitimate mandate for Brexit.
Painless solution: Ireland's Unification. It's inevitable eventually, so why not move it forward and eliminate the hard border obstacle to PM May's proposal.
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@JONWINDY
I very much doubt that 'solution' would be painless.
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Then May loses the DUP support needed for her majority.
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On what planet is a hundred years of sectarian violence "painless"?
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A re-referendum is necessary, to make sure that this really what the Brits want.
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UK should just leave, let the country have its elections for Parliament at normal time or when triggered by confidence vote, and then the winners decide whether to continue. If things are ok, Conservatives can move on. If things are bad, Labor can reverse it. The referendum was a once in a generation event. The normal process can pick it up from here.
Sorry. They can’t reverse it. After March 29th, Britain is out of Europe.
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Correction: After 29 March the UK is (probably) out of the EU. It will always be a part of Europe. It's the belief that the UK has any choice about being part of Europe that lead to the whole Brexit mess in the first place.
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@Patrick a great many english do not feel a part of europe...and wear such feelings on their shoulder when they travel to the 'continent'...
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It was a desperate May trying to find some way of breaking the impasse. I expect she knew full well what the EU would say (we all did, a steady procession of Brussels folk saying ‘negotiations are finished are in every media source), but nevertheless had to try just find a bone or a picky rewrite to throw to Parliament.
They are stuck. No Deal is too disastrous, and we have no time to prepare, May’s Deal can not get through, May is sealed in as leader for another year. That is it, the govt has hit the wall, there is nothing left.
It has to be a Second Referendum with No Deal as an option and a delay to Article 50. I don’t say that easily - we had a vote etc - but there is no other way out of this swearwording mess. The politicians have hit a wall, and so in a true democracy the people must be consulted as to the next step. They asked us once, why not now when the outcomes are clearer? If the public choose a No Deal Brexit, then the delay to Article 50 should be used constructively to actively prepare; storage capacity, customs, Border Patrol etc etc. I thought a Unity Govt might work, but partisanship is too engrained and neither large party can put national interest ahead of their political ambitions.
But the question has to be asked if the people as there is nothing left - an election will not solve this, as much as Corbyn may hope. The question must be put to the public. It will be painful, it will be divisive, it will be disillusioning - but it simply must happen.
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May is really pathetic. Repeatedly coming back to the Euro nations and demanding some sort of "better deal", play-acting at "negotiating" and persisting in leading Britain down the road to ruin.
She has only herself, her own personal belligerence and duplicity and the absurd position of her own Tory part to thank for this state of affairs.
May was *never* a decent leader for Britain, more of an accidental one after David Cameron, the architect of the brilliant Brexit referendum, turned tail and fled the train-wreck, and her personal style and "austerity" policies have been bad for Britain.
The whole Brexit notion was a scam from the start, pandering to fears of Europe and immigration and blaming Europe for Britain's declining stare under the Tories. Anyone with a brain can see that now. Anyone with a brain and a sense of duty to the nation should steer Britain back to sanity. But May cares more about her self-delusive, "iron woman" pseudo-Thatcher posing.
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I think there needs to be a new referendum on leaving the E.U. I am confident that many of those who voted for Brexit will have changed their minds now that the reality of this action has sunk in.
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I would say that May's behaviour epitomises that often cited sign of insanity: repeating the same action over and again, asking the 27 for a guarantee they cannot give, thinking that this time there would be a different result, but it's become clear this week that things have gone far beyond that. To call it madness would be, as Fintan O'Toole remarked in another context, an insult to honest psychotics everywhere. As a citizen of the UK and a proud European I can see no straight way out of this appalling chaos and I am seized with abject fear about what is going to happen to my country. There appear to be no happy endings in sight only continued and increased division and bitterness on all sides. David Cameron has a lot to answer for.
A point of correction: you write that '52 percent of the British electorate voted to leave the union'. To be accurate: 51.9% of those voting did this, but turnout was only 72% of the whole electorate so it was actually only 37% of the electorate who voted that way, while 35% voted to remain (and 28% made no choice).
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As to the bottom line (and the last paragraph) of your statement, do you think a new referendum, if Possible to throw together in the remaining time, Put a reset all this chaos?
It can't stop all the chaos anymore; there are actually lots of people who think May's a traitor for not Brexiting hard enough, for some reason!
It'll only anger such firmly brainwashed, but it'll also, at least, stop the legal and diplomatic consequences that come with the Brexit trainwreck, now that some of the once-brainwashed have learned the facts.
Instead of Brexit, let's fund our NHS instead.
And kick out the Tories.
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Each and every European leader, big and small, has said, and re-said on the record that the deal that was agreed on between Britain and the EU is THE deal, all 585 pages of it. There are no alterations, no concessions, no amendments. Let me repeat, this deal was agreed with the British Government through its plenipotentiary negotiating team. This is the best and only deal.
Yes, it is an unfortunate fact that there will be a fully fledged international border across Ireland, unfortunate but not surprising. The fact that border checks are likely to be installed is the direct and inevitable consequence of the BRITISH decision to leave the EU.
Each and every alternative solution that was proposed has been rejected by the British. Their reasons may be valid, but it would seem as if they would want the entire British border to be sealable by them, so that they can manage traffic of people and goods, EXCEPT across the Emerald Isle, and without this absence being compensated by checks on entry on the mainland.
This goes beyond wanting to have your cake and eat it. It is like they would want to have the ingredients for the cake as well, untouched in the larder.
It is beyond preposterous.
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@Rudy Flameng
Can I remind everyone that it wasn't the entire nation of Britain that decided to leave the EU, it was a small majority in one vote years ago. There are millions of Brits who can't believe this is happening. I just can't get my head around how the fundamental identity of a nation can be irrevocably changed by a single vote with a 3.8% margin. What's next, Britain votes itself back into the EU when the political winds shift? The whole process is just preposterous. Quitting the EU should require a supermajority. Period.
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@JS so how does one define a 'majority' in a plebescite? that is the problem with a winner take all vote...
@JS I agree that is the root of all problems, and Cameron's rotten legacy. The result could have flipped on a change of weather. But the fact that it was proposed and allowed to proceed, in that country rather than, say, Greece, is indicative. I don't see the UK being allowed in again within a generation. Accession requires unanimity among the members. Ask Macedonia, had to change its name to apply, on the opposition of a single country.
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