Isn't this what the USA has always done? Has the USA ever cared what the rest of the world thought of it? Particularly, but not exclusively, under Trump?
I am sure we in the West would not want to see China "emboldened". We would prefer that she keeps churning out cheap garments and leave us to produce high-tech and rule the world. But that is not going to be. We have to reckon with China, which will demand the same right as we have so far enjoyed, of pre-eminence over world affairs.
6
"An Emboldened China No Longer Cares What Its Critics Think"?
"How about "An Emboldened Trumpist USA No Longer Cares What Its Critics Think"?
or
"An Emboldened Russa No Longer Cares What Its Critics Think"?
Last I heard Russia was busy murdering people in other nations and had succeeded in annexing Crimea and continues to destabilize and threaten Ukraine.
And of course Trump, Bolton, and Pompeo have winked at the Saudi murder of Khashoggi, Russian election tampering, and support endless war in Yeman, Syria, Iraq, etc, as well as belligerently threaten North Korea and insult (former) US allies in Europe, and Asia. Not to mention single-handedly undermining environmental agreements and international treaties.
Do you think that Trump and his gang "care" what the world thinks? Why do US talking heads and media opiners constantly reserve to the USA the right do do what it wants?
4
Wow, a big echo chamber. Quite a chorus. Sounds Christmas carols. Occasionally you need to step outside the shopping malls to get away from it.
Has the US ever cared what its critics think? Ever? Anyone?
4
Canada should stop issuing visas to Chinese nationals while the Canadians are detained. "Sorry, the visa issuing machine is in the shop for repair."
2
“Neither was overtly hostile.”
Why the qualification “overtly”?
"An Emboldened China No Longer Cares What Its Critics Think"
..... which is to say. it is starting to act more like the US.
9
@Eddie B. At least The USA acted on the premise (however much of a lie it was) that it was acting on the right side of morality where as China cares for no one but itself. It plans to rewrite the world in its (Xi’s) image and the communist party. Its a red tide thats only to drown everyone. Sure the US has done wrong but we’re built on the foundation of revolt from rule and psuedo”Christian” roots. China is much colder, souless and in plain sight.
4
@Anthony Y. the right word, "acted", like an actor playing a part. Not in reality
wait wait, does America care about what the critics think?
5
Did anyone honestly think that that one party communist state could be trusted to observe western standards of human rights or commercial behavior.
3
"An Emboldened China No Longer Cares What Its Critics Think"
We don't, why should they?
5
I wonder who has the larger incarceration rate--China or the United States? Easy to answer. The U.S., by far. Doesn't make China perfect, just not as bad as the U.S. (when it comes to putting people in prison).
2
We must never forget that China has not changed since it turned Communist 1949 under Mao. It remains a brutal, totalitarian state that brooks little dissent and even less democracy (ie Hong Kong). It has the blood of millions of its own citizens on its hands and to this day still imprisons hundreds of thousands. It remains a serial abuser of basic human rights. On the contrary, it is the West's attitude towards China that has changed. Ever since China embarked upon its experiment with combining state sponsored capitalism with continued domestic oppression, the West applauded - thinking that the nascent norms of a democratic state would surely follow. And we still continue to think that. But the Chinese were right and we were wrong. The Communist Party bought off their own citizenry with the only right they knew would matter, the right to make money. So when the capitalism mask is taken off as it is in these arrests, the West must understand that the face revealed underneath is the real one.
8
@Rick Morris I don't agree, Rick. What you say don't match reality on the ground.
1
China has death camps. When did they care what we think? It seems more likely that they cared what they could get.
5
I can see with Mr. Trump in the White House, China would accidentally sink one of our cruisers in the South China Sea or down a bomber or two. Our politics are scrambled and our leaders ineffectual in all regards. Now would be a good time for China to take back Taiwan. Trump would throw them under the bus in a heartbeat.
2
If China had been a country that cared so deeply about what people think that they were hesitant to act, then the massacre of students wanting democracy at Tianimen Square would never have happened.
4
Trump's behavior is an invitation not to bother with other countries's opinion.
1
The United States would be making a mistake to let this devolve into a question of good vs evil or right vs wrong. It isn't that. In the case of trade with the US, the question is: what kinds of economies do we wish to have as dominant trading partners? We have no choice, really: we must have trading partners that share our basic notions about marketplace, corporate governance, contract law, intellectual property, and the like. This isn't a question of China (or anyone else) having an automatic right to do as much business here as they wish. This is our home, and foreign companies are guests in our home, just as we are guests in their home. We have every right -- it's just common sense -- to set firm rules about who can operate here. This is doubly so for a country that is our largest trading partner and from whom we import far and away more than from any other country.
Dump the morality play and stick to common sense business and economics. The Chinese hate being lectured about morality, but they have taken to lecturing about morality at every turn. That whole dynamic is for the birds.
6
In addition to China's obscene human rights abuses... see, Tibet as one example.
Their ongoing unfettered theft of US and other Country's intellectual property plus hacking ID theft must be fought back AGGRESSIVELY.
Chinese gains in production of solar voltaic panels and other high tech areas were legally abetted by lax and foolish US laws plus short sighted corporations (who sold off or licensed technology).
As long as China can get away with these transgressions without consequences they will. Trump's tit for tat tariffs aren't the answer. I certainly hope our NSA and other agencies are on the prowl in Chinese servers, and 'cloud' storage. If their bad acts are allowed to flourish with no direct cost to the perpetrators they will be further emboldened.
It is time to demonstrate there are serious consequences to the state sponsored hacking that China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, et al are responsible for (despite phony "deniability"). We can't rely on the bluster of the lying tweeter-in-chief.
6
History has not been kind to China. It expands and implodes over and over again. Why? I think it is because they have a weak core, an absence of real values. When you favor the surface appearance, saving face, over the substance, you have no support. When you dominate your population, Communism taking the place of Emperors, you have a weak populace, and a system depending on the power of a few. The world would be doing China a favor by sanctioning and boycotting them back inside their borders and out of world trade and the world economy. They do no one good, if even their own people. They have grabbed enough wealth. In former times, their actions would have been enough cause to declare war. What else is a strong-enough rebuke? Total isolation. Now how many countries will agree to that? The answer might be surprisingly unanimous.
9
China is an enemy. It's about time that we start to treat it as such.
21
In the last 1000 years, China was the largest economy in 600 of these years. It suffered 150 years of humiliation leading to instability marked by violence and famine. Because of its cultural value of education, hard work, and emphasis on accountability, China is again returning to a position of dominance. Very soon, China will overtake the US as the largest economy.
The US will do everything in its power to slow or stop China's rise. (See Thucidydes Trap by Harvard Professor Graham Allison). We sill use sanctions, diplomacy, military and soft power and every available means, including arresting top executives of cutting edge and competing industries.
This recent Huawei executive was arrested for violating Iran sanctions. Lets think about this for a minute. Any business, including bank that has a US branch (i.e. HSBC) that does any business in Iran is automatically guilty. So this executive is guilty of selling telecommunications equipment to Iran. Meanwhile Bone Saw Saudi Arabia bought 130 billion dollars to bomb Yemen, causing civil war, famine and genocide. Mind you, this is the same Saudi Arabia that sponsored 9/11, Al Quada and the Taliban. Amazingly, China can not trade with Iran, a country it has been trading with for over 2,000 years (previously Persia).
The US has right to throw its weight around, but please don't pretend to be more righteous. If there is one country that "no longer cares what its critics think", it is NOT China.
14
@nydoc
Yes and the Uighers were the innovators for most of that time, not the Han.
China is ruled by a Mao wannabe and the communist party.
Communism is no longer a viable means to organize a nation's socio-economic structure. It is however a very viable means to ensure a political oligarchy's rule so long as the domestic population is not overtly oppressed. For that reason, China has embraced limited aspects of capitalism.
That's not good enough for the Chinese communist oligarchy. China appears to want to establish itself as a/the dominant world power. Minimally, it wants to erase the humiliation it suffered as a colony of several European nations which left it impoverished and vulnerable to Japanese aggression.
Hence, the current regime of Mr Xi and his colleagues. Regional hegemony is a minimum. China will continue to strengthen its S China Sea expansion until stopped. To fund their imperialist aims, they need continued trade with the west and they need western technology. So they steal western intellectual capital while they subsidize Chinese companies to capture market share.
Mr Xi controls all aspects of media, education, the military and governance. In some respects Chinese are like the Muslims living in theocracies; eg, womb to tomb indoctrination, albeit in China's case, secular communism rather than Islamic myth ("myth" as in any religion).
Mr Xi's ambition is to become the historical figure of merit in this transformation. He must appear strong to the Chinese people in all matters of international friction.
7
"appear to have also affirmed his instincts that the world’s only superpower will not make room for another."
Define 'superpower'. I do not see America as a superpower. More like hanging on to its last thread.
In all respects, save for the number of nukes, China has long passed the US in reality. And if it wanted it could build those nukes in a couple of months. But why bother, overkill has already been achieved.
Trump is deluding himself. He has an empty hand and he's betting it all.
2
Their new security law is intended as a stealth Cultural Revolution. Absolute conformity to the ruling Party.
1
@loveman0
The Cultural Revolution was not about absolute conformity to the Party. It was about what kind of Party would be demanding absolute conformity.
In the broadest propagandistic terms, the Maoists saw themselves as being on the "socialist road" and their enemies in the Party and the population as being on the "capitalist road."
The officially-designated Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution was started by Mao in 1966 and promoted by Party leftists until it was brought to an end by the victorious right-wing of the Party in 1976 after the death of Mao and the neutralization of the ultra-leftist establishment within the Party led by the group dubbed the Gang of Four.
The capitalist-roaders won.
They transformed the Chinese Communist Party into the Chinese Capitalist-Communist Party that demands absolute conformity to the ruling Party in the guise of promoting and protecting the ancient virtue of "Harmony."
Why indeed would the Chinese care, anyway?
While they have gained more and more economic and military strength year after year, the West, their main critic and the main judge, has steadily lost ground both in worldly terms and in matters of moral uprightness. Tell me, who would or should heed anything that the Trump administration says or pontificates? Or for that matter, to the UK, France or Germany all riven with widespread internal unrest and deep divisions?
3
Nothing new. China is it’s own kingdom.
2
The US with Trump is not too popular in Canada. Now you can add China to the mix.
3
The following is not a counter-argument or justification for the horrible atrocities America has committed. The sins of America do not negate the sins of China, or vice versa (whataboutism). This is instead a reevaluation of the context in which we should compare America and China.
Since its founding, the US has progressed from mostly wealthy, white, slave-owning, land-owning, heterosexual, males having human rights, to an expectation that these human rights be guaranteed to all of its citizens and people living beyond its borders. On a global scale, it has mostly helped usher in the Scientific Revolution and Age of Enlightenment through its soft-power, opposed to hard-power, raising billions out of poverty and spreading democracy on a scale never seen before in human history.
China, in contrast, has simply raised millions of people out of poverty by becoming more connected to the scientific and enlightened international system that was already manifesting hundreds of years before it economically opened up - it would still be a feudalistic system if it had not done so. Domestically, the Chinese Communist Party has chosen to let its citizens benefit from this system economically, but not politically and intellectually. As a consequence, you have a population that is materialistically better off than it was before, but lacking in human dignity, like a billion healthy cattle standing in line for the slaughter, so their meat can be distributed to customers worldwide.
You don't get to be where China is by being politically and intellectually stunted. You don't lift 800,000 million out of poverty (in mere decades) because you lack intellectual heft and vision. You don't threaten the hegemony of the United States by, "lacking in human dignity." To think so is to underestimate, and by so doing empower, your "enemy."
I once heard an Indian professor giving a talk on China say, "One hundred million Chinese leave China every year to go on vacation; and every year, 100 million Chinese return to China." So much for your, "billion healthy cattle," theory.
Rap this: China is 5,000 plus; you better worry about US!
2
For Canada to have done the bidding of the Trump Administration is producing the same result that befalls anybody or any entity that comes within touching distance of President Trump. The toxicity is highly contagious.
Even though our president is held up to mirthful ridicule on the world stage, he is still toxic and should be avoided at all times.
I just read On Tyranny. Very timely. I am an avid reader of Ha Jin and follower of AI Weiwei . I have studied Tibetan Buddhism for 27 years and know that 20%of the Tibetans were annihilated by the Chinese. When I lived in San Francisco for 3 years I found the Chinese lacking in all friendliness and manners. I always was befuddled at the ignorant comments people made that seem to suggest China is a worthy leader of the future... hello? Media control. Hello? Species extinction. Hello? Pollution. Hello? Overpopulation.
Now there is the reveal, and it is malevolent and totalitarian.....
11
Those who equate the actions of the United States with those of China are uttering the words of useful idiots and doing exactly what the enemies of liberal democracy want more than anything else. If you let your hatred of Trump blind you to China's blatant disregard for modern norms of conduct, then you deserve both. Oh, and have a great day!
26
@Charles Becker
What about Trump 's "blatant disregard for modern norms of conduct"?
Or those of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld?
If you think that any of them -- or the current crop of right-wing extremists in the USA -- care about the niceties of "liberal democracy," you're sadly mistaken.
The point is not that China is good and the USA is bad -- SO simplistic! -- but rather that our nation has been doing that for 20 years now. And the rest of the world is fed up with the USA and has absolutely no confidence in its leadership -- military, political, economic, or moral -- because of such blatant hypocrisy.
1
It's a relief to see that in spite of the disproportionate number of comments defending China's policies and decrying the NYT for its pro-American "hypocrisy", not only the NYT but all the major independent and mainstream Western media right now are speaking out practically unanimously against the very real threat that China (and a handful of other countries) clearly poses to the survival of liberties Western countries fought long and hard to secure for their citizenry.
One of the most fundamental of these liberties is freedom of speech, which, with consummate irony, the detractors of Western democracies among our commenters are clearly keen to take advantage of in order to protest loudly against the West's "terrible injustices" or the systematic "brainwashing" carried out by Western media - the same Western media that is providing them with their platform for free expression in the first place.
Reflecting on the lengths China's government for its part is currently going to to stifle free speech and many of the other freedoms taken for granted in Western democracies only increases the absurdity of these people's protests.
6
Mark my words there will be another World War within 10 years, sad but unavoidable, and I believe this one will end in disaster for everyone.
China has NEVER cared about criticism because we are ALL addicted to cheap Chinese goods, including I Phones, produced in sweat shops, where workers have no right and where health, safety and the environment don't matter. You can thanks Democrats and Republicans, Wall Street bankers and leading American corporate CEOs...and yourself for that. I'm probably the only person on earth who actively tried to avoid Chinese imports. But it's pretty much improbable to do so.
4
@Jay David We're not addicted. They usually break. We just have few alternatives, because our corporations were too greedy to keep manufacturing at home. They need to be brought to heel by the government, finally.
3
The US and China differ in that we still have the rule of law holding up our democratic nation. Even though our democracy has been damaged by bad leadership, it has not been supplanted by bad leadership...yet. It still allows us to look forward and have a future and imagine and create a better world. China is ruled by an autocrat. There is no respect for democratic norms. All depends on the autocrat. What kind of future does China have? Only what it can steal from countries that allow freedom of thought and action. Just think where it would be if there were no Western democracies for it to interact with? I bet the ladies would still have bound feet. We are all connected and dependent on each other in this world whether people choose to believe that or not.
4
This is a strange, weird take. Under Communist Party rule China had never, ever cared about what critics think. Even when it was still relatively poor. In the past when China needed access to western capital and market it might have pretended to care and did some superficial things to placate the critics, but in reality Communist China had never, ever cared what its critics think.
4
I disagree with the major premise of this article. China's determination to show the world it will be tough on her foreign critics and internal dissidents reveals a deep insecurity about her place in the world. Nothing shows this more clearly than China's feverish reaction to the detention of Meng Wanzhou, which to them represents, not an important legal problem, but a very great loss of face.
5
The Chinese ruling party has no need to be concerned with what others think about what it does within its own borders.In that sense they are like us. They also, not far in the future, will make the rules about what happens in the South China Sea -- just as we do in the Gulf of Mexico. We grow more and more alike.
2
Trumps America has left Canada to be it's conscience regards both China and Saudi Arabia. This after endless Canada bashing from our biggest trading partner.
Canadians need to know the US no longer has our back as an ally, neighbour or even friend.
so sad
12
It was always a relationship of convenience don't forget that. Canadas mistake is the heavy reliance on the US as a trading partner which is a single point of failure "all your eggs in one basket".
Canada should take this as a wakeup call... There's no guarantee that the next US president will be "Canada friendly.
1
Feel sorry for for Canada. At the end of the day Trump will blame them for any problems that ensue.
5
"The ruling Communist Party no longer cares much about the risk to its international stature posed by harsh actions against its opponents."
Thus taking a leaf out of Saudi Arabia's book.
1
The Chinese have never swayed from deprivation of human rights. No one is fooled by their economic prowess into thinking human rights are important. This is probably our last measurable advantage over China.
9
The same applies in the US. Trump no longer cares about his critics say.
This article is spot on. As a liberal democrat who has been to China numerous times, I can attest that China is rapidly (and accelerating) its return to a quasi-Mao era. Education camps for Muslims in Xinjiang, Chinese phones with chips that report web sites and conversations on WeChat (the obsequious app that almost all Chinese use for social networking and paying bills and moving around money quietly), not just dissidents but ANY critics disappear in secret trials and detentions, rampant corruption through every layer of business, government, and even education...and the list grows daily. Xi JinPing now thinks he is unstoppable, and because of the CCP tendency to overreact strongly towards the dictatorial, the paranoia that China will not quickly enough be 老大哥 (literally "big brother", in China idiomatic for the "#1 superpower), and the instinctive reaction to deny wrongdoing while instinctively demonize the accuser through propaganda, demonizing any opponent though state media, hacking government and corporations as a way of "sending a message"...because all of these things and more, China stands as the #1 rogue nation. Don't discount North Korea, of course! But, NK is propped up completely by China. It is China alone–because of the CCP–that is the powerful enemy of the modern age.
50
@Jeffrey
Yes, it is true that since the 1949 Chinese revolution, China has been a totalitarian state; and yes since that time, the level of and focus of repression and toleration for dissent has waxed and waned; and yes, now that China has become an economic superpower, its internal suppression of difference and dissent has been increasing, and it's flexing of raw power externally has been increasing.
As always, the question for the liberal west is what to do about it? Exclusion has long since been replaced by engagement, on the theory that granting China a seat at the international table would ameliorate its leaders taste for repression.
But now what?
If there is any consensus to be found in reply, it is that the western powers must act in concert to make it clear that there is a price to pay for such barbarous behavior, internal and external.
Problem is nationalism, narrow self-interest, and xenophobia everywhere, and an irrational President of the US is crippling the west, excluding entirely the possibility of common action.
And the prime symbol, prime prove of our global helplessness has nothing to do with geopolitics in the traditional sense--climate warming. If humanity cannot forge a deal and common action to save us all, then all appears lost.
Worst of all, at the core of this failure is our free will that enables us to deny facts and choose delusion.
Hugely sad, really.
2
@Jeffrey "Chinese phones with chips that report websites and conversations on WeChat" While other claims seem plausible, this claim is totally unsupported.
All autocratic regimes are now more aggressive and bolder as they sense a disarray of American defense for global human rights, along with its new found prosperity that gave them a more forceful position to geopolitics with a stronger military.
4
From the article: “It undermines the work of those who have tried to be neutral,” said Kerry Brown, a professor at King’s College.
Neutrality is not the right way to think of this.
But the two countries are bad actors for different reasons. China has done horrific things to its own population; the Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen Square, Uighur re-education camps. Acts aimed at maintaining internal control.
The US has more protections against internal abuses, the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War 2 being an exception. Instead, the US has been the world's largest exporter of naked aggression. I'm excluding the two world wars where US participation was justified. Florida, Hawaii, Mexico, Libya, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Ecuador, Peru, Paraguay, Chile, Cuba, Congo, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, the Philippines, Guam, Fiji, Samoa, Somalia, Liberia, Iran, Iraq, etc. I count more than 50. For me, personally, I find Laos and Hawaii to be the two most heartbreaking.
Both countries are full of wonderful people with beautiful families who just want prosperity and security. Both governments are filled with corrupt power-hungry officials who believe that any action is justified by the ends they seek. When you think about it, the two countries are not very different.
2
@ShenBowen Whenever human beings are involved there are problems, but despite many US actions over the years that have tragically fallen short of of our ideals, US post war leadership has contributed to the spread of prosperity and freedom. A welcome mat was laid out for China to join this global community with the hope that China would evolve to become a good global citizen while gradually opening at home. Alas under Xi China has reversed directions on both global and home fronts. While we must live together, the welcome mat should no longer be out. It will be a cold peace as long as Xi and his ilk are in power.
4
The following is not a counter-argument or justification for the horrible atrocities America has committed, but instead is a reevaluation of the context in which we should compare America and China.
Since its founding, the US has progressed from only wealthy, white, slave-owning, land-owning, heterosexual, males having human rights, to an expectation that these human rights be guaranteed to all of its citizens and people living beyond its borders. On a global scale, it has mostly helped usher in the Scientific Revolution and Age of Enlightenment through its soft-power, opposed to hard-power (military might), raising billions out of poverty and spreading democracy on a scale never seen before in human history.
China, on the other hand, has simply raised millions of people out of poverty by becoming more connected to the scientific and enlightened international system that was already taking shape hundreds of years before it economically opened up - it would still be a feudalistic system if it had not done so. Domestically, the Chinese Communist Party has chosen to let its citizens benefit from this system economically, but not politically and intellectually. As a consequence, you have a population that is materialistically better off than it was before, but lacking in human dignity, like a billion healthy cattle standing in line for the slaughter, so their meat can be distributed to customers worldwide.
@ShenBowen With so many people bashing China in the U.S. these days, I like to remind myself that China has brought half of its very large population out of poverty in less that 40 years. That alone is a major accomplishment in world history.
1
Now it is clear how important TPP was in restraining China where it hurts them the most, in East Asia. With EU and almost all countries in Pacific Basin Hillary Clinton would have all the cards to exert pressure on China. Almost all world and 70% of global economy would provide needed pressure. That was the proper long range policy.
Going alone against China Trump has no cards other than mano-a-mano tariff war and arresting Chinese officials. This looks more like desperation.
9
@CarolinaJoe Agree. It should be the free world collectively constraining autocracies. The good news, Trump will be gone in two years or at worst six; the bad news, Xi has engineered the possibility of lifetime rule. A tragedy for China and the world.
2
Is any of this truly a surprise? The day was sure to come when, once it understood the strength of the economic leverage and political influence it had built up, China would be concerned less about - and indeed intolerant of - opposing viewpoints.
The Chinese respect strength and consistency. To be lukewarm or vacillating in their face invites bad behavior. While we needn't, and shouldn't as one reader suggested, send half the Pacific Fleet steaming through the Taiwan Strait, we need to stand tall and resolutely so.
4
China is in trouble.
The word used to be, if the Chinese economy dips below 9% growth there will be a revolution. The best estimate today for China's growth is 6.8%. A lot of economists think that is an inflated estimate.
This crackdown is not a big surprise.
Totalitarian governments are quick to crack down when they start feeling the pressure.
11
From a previous article in the NYT: "Trump told Reuters he would intervene in the U.S. Justice Department's case against Meng if it would serve national security interests or help close a trade deal with China." Trump has proclaimed that Ms. Meng is indeed a bargaining chip in trade negotiations. It could not be clearer. If Canada is a country of laws, as they say they are, then Ms. Meng should certainly NOT be extradited to the US. For a person to be held hostage to a trade negotiation is not a proper use of the US-Canada extradition treaty. Let's see what Canada chooses to do now.
24
I say it's time to show China who rules the world with force. I have enough of their creeping power and influence. We have built enough bombs to blow the planet 1000 times over. Sometimes when diplomacy fails, it may help to use force. Let's send our Navy into the South China Sea Islands and tell them they are closing or we are annilating them.
3
@Devin Grecowith Bolton in there you never know....
@Devin Greco
“We go to partake of death. And it is in these moments, before the blades are unsheated, before blood wets the ground and screams fill the air, that the futility descends upon us all. Without our armor, we would all weep.”
― Steven Erikson, Deadhouse Gates
@Devin Greco While sympathetic with your concerns, I find your bravado dangerous. We would be better to organize a multi- Asia Pacific nation flotilla of vessels to show a united front of objection to China's unilateral claims on the South China Seas.
1
Again those arguing that China is terrible should really look at recent events. The second invasion of Iraq over WMDs that didn't exist how many Iraqi civilians died as a result of the invasion and destabilization of Iraq... what about that Saudi bombing campaign in Yemen NY Times had a picture of that starving child. The US sold weapons to Saudi Arabia that allowed that to happen.
13
@Brian LTwo wrongs don‘t make a right!
It's so typically American to point its collective, sanctimonious finger at other countries and cultures when it comes to "human rights" or other problems they are dealing with. This has become a huge part of the current white nationalism that has seized our country. Air out the dirty laundry of the Chinese or Europeans or elsewhere while ignoring very real, ugly problems we have here: our prison system, drugs, gun violence, economic inequality and, most recently, taking children away from their parents. I could go on but I think you all get the point.
Quite often our most terrible injustices are committed against each other without the help of the government here in the U.S. We have a self-destructive, Calvanistic way of treating each other.
17
@mrfreeze6 Just because we have injustices of our own does not excuse China for theirs.
1
@mrfreeze6
Moral relativism leads to inactivity.
"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing" -Burke
1
Sure but America has in its past and even very recently done the samethings.... Yet no one in America went to jail.
It almost always involves some poor country that doesn't have the means to defend itself or retaliate either.
So I guess it's "do as I say.... not as I do"
@Bender Bending Rodriquez I just felt many people in USA fall into their own metanarrative without knowing much about China. Because of brain-washing by politically-divided "free media", people think most of Chinese citizens are oppressed by the Chinese government. Can you image how absurd can that be? The USA always wants to contain, control and interfere with other countries. While worrying about China's growth, has the USA analyzed its own behavior over the years? Kidnapping the someone for trade deal and ordering Canadian to do that? It is really just like Mafia. We should worry about WWIII from USA side.
3
@Alex Yuan Gao Xi has only been in power for several years and in this brief period the trends are clear towards increasing domestic suppression. China is pioneering the use of technology for Orwellian levels of control. Don't you think things will continue to get worse unless there is leadership change. China's success has been due to Deng Xiao Ping reforms and the openness of the US led global economy. As to your other point, there is no evidence that the detainment of the Huawei executive was by independent juridical action, though Pres Trump has turned it into trade issue, I think wrongly. Trump will soon be gone though. I have been following China since when Mao was still alive and like many was very supportive of integrating China into the global economy. I am saddened to have to had change my views in response to changes in China's leadership and direction.
@Alex Yuan Gao
Are Uyghusr, Tibetans NOT Chinese Citizens? Ask them if they are living free in China just like any other Han Chinese such as Victor Gao, Yuan Gao or Wang Gao....
Don't tell me they are "terrorists, separatists"... blah...blahhhh, that is why....
If that were your explanation, then all young Han male Chinese should be locked up in concentration camps with Chinese characteristics so that China can prevent them from committing heinous crime of killing pupils for they are dissatisfied with their lives.
I think China is learning fast on law and order from western countries. They revised their NGO law in 2017 to handle abundant foreign "NGO" employees roaming around and probing on Chinese cities and countryside. One of the recent arrest of Mr. Michael Kovrig of Canada is due to the violation of Chinese NGO law. And the second recent arrest of Mr. Michael Spavor is because of national security ground. Unfortunately, this kind of news does not appear in news reporting. In addition to their technology advancement, China has also improved their laws to catch up with the modern times. In recent years, all Chinese government employees swear in to their constitutional laws and flag, not communism doctrine.
@Usok Never mind that "Xi Jinping Thought" is now embedded in that constitution.
When you can't even bring yourself to condemn the ambush and dismemberment of a member of the press, you have no moral authority to say anything about China.
9
@Shaggy Most in the US have condemned the Saudi murder, including this newspaper.
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Here's a more accurate title for those completely oblivious to anything happening in the last two years:
"An Emboldened America No Longer Cares What Its Critics Think"
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Do tell me how is this different from what the US has or is doing? Disregarding intl law when it suits them and flouting their power to it's own policy goals? Destabilizing whole countries and regions for their own perceived security or economical gains? Preferentially jailing or prosecuting minorities internally?
Please....
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International criticism too is not what it used to be.It is much more fractured and ineffective these days .Those that defy it often get away with it.
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I have lived and worked China twice and had contact with mid-level party members. Both told me that China had a rich history and for thousands of years China was the center of the world. They felt that China lost its importance during to the European colonial period. Unliked the Russians ( where I have also lived & worked), both Chinese officials told me that they had something to learn from the Western World. They understood that China needed wealth if China is to be restored to its rightful leadership.
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@Rod
Hi Rod,
It sounds like you have a wealth of experience and knowledge in both China and Russia. Could you expand on that a little bit more, and how might those experiences relate to the article at hand? For example: Did your conversations with mid-level Chinese officials delve deeper into the PRC's view of a declining (absolute or relative) US power? Thanks!
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My reading of Chinese history is that pre-1900 its empires were not exactly comparable to empires in the West or even in India. A vast country was essentially ruled locally by warlords with shifting allegiances to the emperor. It was KMT and the communist party that finally unified China. Whatever their failings, China and to a lesser extent India, remember their occupation by Western forces and tend to attribute much of their present day maladies to Western occupation. It is unlikely that the Chinese communist party will accede to US demands regarding trade - the last time foreign countries imposed their will regarding trade resulted in the two opium wars. A more diplomatic approach would entail the US laying out its case that it is different from the 18th and 19th century European countries and that a mutually agreeable trade policy that eschews glaring trade imbalances would benefit both countries.
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Why would they ever care what they "think"? I don't care what people in other countries "think" only what they might or will "do". Pretty simple and really nothing new.
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@vulcanalex
That’s what Trump does, Saudi and Russia pay him up so they are good international criminals. China doesn’t and is bad?
Why is this surprising ?
Possibly because we're so focused on studying STEM subjects at university (or Commerce) that we don't study history as much as we used to do.
Even in the 1970s, courses on Chinese history were on offer at my old college. Reading about Imperial China way back then, it was predictable that as soon as it had the power, China would do what China wanted to do. Regardless of what the rest of the world might think.
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@Oriole it is only surprising to ignorant people and it has nothing to do with "history". Do I care what my neighbor thinks or do I care what they might do?
What a disgrace is China, an awful example of what abuse of power can do to it's own people. No human rights to speal of, afraind of it's own shadow, a state capitalism ready and willing to sacrifice the nest it has, human talent, for a rigid system to muzzle it's spirit. Instead of solidarity, and some justice to assure societal peace, we may be witness to a deep and ugly loneliness and isolation. An institutionalized violence of sorts. Sad indeed. Not that we have paradise on this side of the equation, with a fascist-to-aspire abuse 'a la Trump'. This is what happens when we, flawed humans, lack sensible regulation and have 'parrots' telling the chief how indispensable and unique his ' imbecile ego' is, no matter how irrelevant in the great scheme of things, our joy of life notwithstanding.
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@manfred marcus That's rich, coming from Bolivia.
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“An Emboldened China No Longer Cares What Its Critics Think”
If that were true, the Chinese censors would not be banning mention of Winnie-The-Pooh. Pretty bold: Throwing down the gauntlet by attacking a character in a children’s storybook. That’ll show the world who’s confident.
I notice that China still pays thousands of trolls to post comments assailing any criticism of that country and its tin-pot dictator.
I say we redouble sanctions and tariffs, cut off ZTE and Huawei from any electronics supplies whatsoever, cease shipping soybeans and other foodstuffs to China, and start freezing international bank accounts of every Chinese government official and every Chinese corporate executive (who all actually work for the Chinese Communists). Sure, it might take longer to buy an iPhone made in America, but Xi’s subjects will be standing in lines just for bread.
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@NorthernVirginia - What you're suggesting is very close to what President Roosevelt did to the Japanese prior to the beginning of WWII. Beginning in July 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act and continued to pile on Japan up until July 1941 when Roosevelt froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. You're suggesting the U.S. and maybe her allies too put China in an untenable position giving the Chinese government the cover they need to escape the stranglehold by going to war, the same thing Roosevelt and his subordinates knew they were doing to Japan. Do you think China is just going to roll over at that point and apologize for everything and offer to play nice? No, they're going to start escalating with both diplomatic means, intentionally undercutting us economically, more cyber threats and eventually someone is going to push a button or pull a trigger and the fighting is going to start. When that happens, I promise you the Chinese aren't going to be standing in bread lines waiting for the end to come soon. Much like the Russians, North Koreans, Iranians and other places, hardship is in the Chinese blood and DNA. They'll go for years taking losses while we cry we can't upgrade our iPhone on the cheap anymore. China is thinking 10 – 20 years down the line; most in the U.S. just wants to ensure the 401K doesn’t blow up.
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@Bill C.
“You're suggesting the U.S. and maybe her allies too put China in an untenable position giving the Chinese government the cover they need to escape the stranglehold by going to war, the same thing Roosevelt and his subordinates knew they were doing to Japan.”
The Japanese were already at war at that time; they just added us to the list of combatants.
As for China today, their military has not faced an armed opponent (peaceful students holding signs don’t count) since 1979 when China invaded Vietnam to “teach them a lesson”. The Vietnamese military was mostly in Cambodia at the time, but the local Vietnamese militia killed nearly 30,000 PLA regulars. Everybody took a lesson from that.
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I find it hard to believe that neither Canada or the US saw this coming. The US decided to play hardball with China on trade at the sametime during trade negotiations has another country (Canada) nab the CFO of the largest telecom equipment manufacturer in the world.
What did we think was going to happen?
Have we forgotten how the US reacted when Andrew Brunson was imprisoned?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/12/world/europe/turkey-us-pastor-andrew-brunson.html
"Faced with Turkey’s continuing refusal to free the pastor, Washington imposed financial sanctions on the Turkish interior minister and justice minister. Days later, Mr. Trump announced that the United States was doubling its tariffs on steel and aluminum imports from Turkey, just as the Turkish currency, the lira, began a precipitous fall against the dollar."
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I am watching the fall of the American Empire. As Pat Buchanan always reminds us that the USA is a Republic not an Empire. China’s growth is 6% on 12 trillion bucks which is a whole lot more than 3% of 20 trillion bucks in the USA. The USA would be doing just fine if it were not supporting the Empire by borrowing from foreign powers. Trump hasn’t ruined China he has ruined America.
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@Alkoh Yes not only is the US not and Empire, few of us want to be one either. And America is not ruined, Trump is improving our country.
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why is china given a pass on their treatment of muslims?
why aren't chinese embassies around the world beset with violence and bombings via jihad? to me, the answer is fear on behalf of the extremists.
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You should read up on US history and foreign influence campaigns. We're outraged becuase the Russians are meddling in US elections. You don't think the US does the same kind of thing in other countries. Have a look at some of the stuff we've done in South America.
Iran... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–United_States_relations?wprov=sfti1
"Iran was invaded by the United Kingdom and the Soviet Union, both US allies, but relations continued to be positive after the war until the later years of the government of Mohammad Mosaddegh, who was overthrown by a coup organized by the Central Intelligence Agency and aided by the MI6."
You can bet that none of the above was "peaceful"
You don't need to be a history major Google is your friend.
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@pierre
It is because China and Muslim extremists are two sides of one coin.
Uyghurs are peaceful people with moderate religious views; China treats them as enemy for they are being different than Han Chinese; Muslim extremists hate Uyghurs because they are peaceful and moderate... Uyghurs love humanity and democracy unlike them....So both sides hate Uyghurs for being Uyghurs only;
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@Uyghur "China treats them as enemy for they are being different than Han Chinese;" Really, you sure? Who holds such racist view these days? You just give all Chinese people a label "Uyghurs-haters". Have you realized this is racist and not cool?
Reminds me of the the rise of Japan before WWII.
Everything is fun and games (what’s a little mass detentions, torture, totalitarianism, racist nationalism?) until you are bombing Hawaii (it is a State, I checked.)
Europe, for all their fervent statements in favor of human rights, cozies up to China as long as the money flows.
American consumerism and short sightedness has enabled the rise of China.
Communism in China has long been a sham. Nationalism, internal repression and economic growth are the real masters. What will happen when nationalism and nationalist dreams cause China to expand its co-prosperity zone? Belt and road becomes, noose and missile? Do we currently have a recipe for WWIII brewing?
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@Bender Bending Rodriquez I just felt many people in USA fall into their own metanarrative without knowing much about China. Because of brain-washing, people think the most of the Chinese citizens are oppressed by the Chinese government. Can you image how absurd can that be? The USA always wants to contain, control and interfere with other countries. While worrying about China's growth, has the USA analyzed its own behavior over the years? Kidnapping the someone for trade deal and ordering Canadian to do that? It is really just like Mafia. We should worry about WWIII from USA side.
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@Alex Yuan Gao
Holding millions of innocent people, supposedly her own citizens into shameful internment camps is utmost display of BIG and DARK MAFIA power, sir!
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@Uyghur That is why I said people do not understand how the Chinese government works. Education happened only because some were involved in terroristic actions. How is education called MAFIA? If someone commits the crime, he/she needs to face consequences. Moreover, this is too much exaggerated by "NGO" reporters who get funding from secret agencies for political reasons.
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Yeah, somehow when your government starts ripping screaming young children from their parents arms as the families flee violence, one's country loses the ability to condemn others. Who knew being a global power was so complicated?
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@sleeve Ripping??? And if they stayed where they belong the issue would decline. I don't want us to be worried about the internal affairs of other countries.
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@sleeve Oh please. There is simply no comparison between the two governments, on elected and one imposed. China now has over 200 million public surveillance cameras.
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The sins of America do not negate the sins of China or vice versa. Every sin should be evaluated within its own context. One cannot discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. The FACT is that China routinely commits human rights atrocities. And, no matter how much finger pointing you make at the west for their own faults, it will not change this fact or diminish its significance on the tragic toll it takes on humanity.
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Assumes all is secure internally!
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It's too bad I won't be around to read the book, The Rise and Fall of the Chinese Empire. But I'm sure it will be written someday.
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@Dave
. . . someday soon.
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@Dave Fret not, you will be still quite around to read 'The Rise and Fall of the American Empire'.
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@Dave they have been written many times in last 3 thousand years.
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