The American people overwhelmingly want border security and immigration reform. Trump out-maneuvered the Democrats again, in my view. He will get CREDIT for principle, they will get BLAME for being the obstructionist do-nothing which they are.
Feckless and reckless on both sides with the American public left in the middle. A pox on both houses. As the dysfunction in this country quickly turns dystopian, Putin the puppeteer sits back and
turns another page in his 'Divide and Conquer' playbook.
Time for a change all the way around. The sooner the better, before it's too late. More's the pity. Where's the outrage? Where's the courage?
6
There are many who think that the principal reason for a government is protection, that using tax monies for much else is usurpation. I don't particularly, seeing it as one reason among many - there are a lot of needs. However, Trump is proposing shutting down the government, our means security, to "increase" our security. This goes beyond irony.
1
Trump's fans will love it and that's all he cares about - it makes him look like the tough-guy bully he is and they adore him for that. In addition they believe his picture of the people at the gate as a dangerous, undesirable, "contagious," horde threating their country in every way imaginable. With this gamesmanship Trump only grows enormously in stature in their eyes.
As for me, the very idea of a wall and the attitudes behind that idea make me sick.
3
If one person believes he actually will accept responsibility for hurting so many Hardworking people, you must have slept through this administration. He has never taken responsibility for anything he has done. He is “with out “ morals, ethics, standards. He tells his base, some will have to sacrifice for the rest. He’s never one of the sacrificers.
3
If he didn’t have the wall to whip up his followers he would have to try and work on something legitimate- like healthcare, environment, actual tax cuts to the real people. This is a pretend objective. Waste of time and money just as economists predict a recession.
2
Shutdown is a Republican trick. It was when Gingrich did it. It is now. The catch here - what Trump senses - is that his self-identified badass, confrontation-oriented voters think they want a shutdown. So for him it may indeed not be bad politics. It keeps the base fired up for him while everyone else already is so far into detestation of him that nothing he could do now would win them over. (Me, for instance.) Of course, if shutdown were for real - no Social Security checks, no unemployment checks, no air traffic control, no VA hospitals, no mail, nothing other than defense, Coast Guard, Border Patrol and FBI - they'd sing a different tune.
3
LOOK! SQUIRREL! Trump has successfully diverted the attention of the press from his contribution by directing the payoff funds to the campaign finance felony Mr Cohen is sentenced and going to prison for 3 years. A critical thinker would conclude since individual #1 directed it, he is due to spend more than 3 years in jail. But no, the tail is wagging the dog again. The press is successfully distracted from impeachable offenses over a dispute involving a border wall.
Follow the money!
1
Trump does not know how to play chess.Think several moves ahead.Trump shuts down the government over a wall which no one wants to pay for and then spends his holidays playing golf at Mar-a-lago.The government is not working and neither is he.This will not appeal to anyone, including his "base".
9
He will inevitably blame the Dems for not doing his bidding.
2
Very stable genius. Oh, by the way, how's that nuclear show down with North Korea going? About as well as the show down with Pelosi and Schumer? Heaven help us!
7
It is disappointing to continue to see this type of coverage of President Trump two years into his chaotic presidency. Why characterize this as an example of him "playing by his own rules" and not simply as a case of political inexperience or self-defeating petulance? Why spend time parsing the strategic elements when it is likely that no strategy was involved at all? Two years in there is no wall, there is not likely to ever be a wall, and in any case, Mexico is clearly not paying for it. What the photo-op provided was a glimpse into the dysfunctional presidency of a man with no coherent policy ideas.
5
$5 billion won't even come close to building Trump's wall.
I'll venture Trump isn't trying build a wall. He just likes the fight, it's all about keeping his base from getting restless.
8
No way now to blame the Democrats for the government shutdown now that Trump said over and over that he will take full credit personally.
70% of Americans don’t want his screwball wall: an unnecessary expense and worthless besides. Don’t we have a say? We need infrastructure repairs, climate control and a national health system not his billion dollar wasteful spending. Lock him up: mouth first.
6
Just agree to build the wall as soon as Mexico agrees to fund it. Should be no problem at all.
7
That’s a bold move, Cotton. Let’s see if it pays off.
(It probably won’t)
3
“Playing by his own rules” or just “winging it”?
5
One must admit one of two things to push through -
1. Trump has unmanageable physical and mental symptoms from a very dysfunctional form of psychotic medical condition; the GOP must admit this, and admit finally that he is incapable of directing the U.S.A.
2. ...see number one.
(...happy holidays, bah, bah Trump!)
3
In Arabic, "Al Qaeda" means "the base." Trump is incapable of doing anything but playing to his Al Qaeda.
9
I can’t help but notice the decor of the room in which the conference was held. It looked very “Christmasy.” In the back was a fireplace with a big mantle. Maybe it should have been hung with two stockings—one for the Democrats and one for the Republicans. Maybe this was the. “mantle” he said he would “take.” I wouldn’t be surprised if he took both stockings for himself.
2
The Democrats can win this fight if they repeat over and over again "Strong border security but no money for a useless wall." Don't just oppose the shutdown. Make the American people understand that the wall is stupid and unnecessary and a waste of money. Democrats are for strong border security! Don't let Trump co-opt the issue.
8
Start the shutdown by ceasing all Trump golf course trips - and demand that he pay back 83 million taxpayer dollars for his 154 golf days so far this term.
5
Trump never ceases to amaze. Not afraid to show the world that he is the most ill informed President in History.
6
He says he’ll own the shutdown. But I expect he will later deny it and blame the dems.
2
"playing by his own rules" Ha! he was totally played by Nancy and Chuck. So satisfying to watch.
5
If a shutdown means Trump is not in charge of anything for a while, then bring it on!
2
I watched a program last night on ESPN about Bobby Knight , when he was the basketball coach at Indiana. He was Trump incarnate. Same anger, privileged power, juvenile behavior. Everyone in Indiana cowered to him.
“ Absolute power corrupts absolutely “
2
What does the pouty Ebenezer Scrooge Trump care if he shuts down the government, because "they" won't fund his ridiculous multi-billion-dollar wall--that he lied said Mexico was going to pay for?
He's rich; he will get along just fine--not like all those government workers living paycheck to paycheck, trying to raise families who will be furloughed at Christmas time and may fall behind on their mortgage, car, and credit card payments.
Let them eat cake--or maybe Trump Steaks and go on a vacation during their "break" to one of Trump's golf resorts.
2
We need a complete rethinking of America immigration policy. The wall is a start on what should be a major effort to protect the jobs, livelihood, and future of American citizenswho are now impoverished. Not one dime for illegal immigrants while African American children still face bleak futures, we have homeless in our streets, and our veterans get sub par care. We also need to think about how many Chinese come into this country ostensibly to study but actually to steal our secrets.
3
While yesterday's noise was entertaining, ever since he descended the escalator at Trump Tower, the current occupant of the white house repeatedly promised that Mexico would pay for the wall. Two years along, The Art of the Deal president seems unable to get them to the negotiating table. He has no business sticking the American public with the bill. Instead, he should start a GoFundMe campaign and let the die hard Trump supporters donate.
8
In fact the Billions in savings from Nafta are the funds coming indirectly from Mexico to pay for the Wall.
1
BTW, four billion sounds like real money to me!
1
Mr. Hulse, you are giving Trump way too much credit. Trump is pure theater, a distraction, and an impediment to any sort of actual governing anyone might do. He flipped no script; his script is always chaos and he delivered more of the same.
1
The article says he “flipped the script” as if his assumption of responsibility (for now) of a potential shutdown was some masterful stroke of unorthodox politicking; this was no such thing. This, as can be clearly seen in the video of the encounter, was the wild verbal flailing of a scared animal backed into a corner by smarter and stronger opponents. This should both comfort and unsettle us all.
2
Read Trump's lips: "Mexico will pay for the wall." Why didn't Mr. Trump start negotiations with Mexico the day after his inaugural? Every journalist in the country needs to remind the American public and Mr. Trump of his campaign promise when ever border security is mentioned in print or on the air. That's the "mantle" we want our President to take up and wear: "Mexico will pay for the wall." Not the American taxpayers hard earned money.
1
My bet is that the republicans pay the bigger price for a shutdown. As a party, they still control both houses of congress and the presidency (not to mention the Supreme Court). If they can't pass a funding bill under their own power with the minimum number of democrats, what does that say about the legislation and their ability to govern? I'm trusting that there are still enough smart people in this country to realize that. In the end, playing to his base has to be a losing game. There aren't that many of them to form a majority and they are losing numbers.
2
" And while the border wall is a significant symbolic issue, the dollars at stake in this fight are not huge — basically a difference of under $4 billion. "
Am I misreading this statement? There seems to me something deeply offensive and quite irresponsible to label the sum of $4 billion "not huge."
We can't afford healthcare for the nation but we can afford 25 - 75 billion dollar walls (plus yearly maintenance)?
Seriously?
1
This is a referendum on the Trump presidency. The wall doesn’t matter. Whether Trump is willing to shut down the government to draw a line in the sand matters very much.
Does anyone in the GOP realize that every international airport is a border? Are we going to wall them up too?
Ted Cruz was happy to take credit for a government shutdown. Then the cost of it became clear, and he sang a different tune. Now he pretends that never happened.
We saw trump the child, threatening a tantrum if he is not given what he wants.
What he wants is $5 billion, to build a massive boondoggle to his construction industry "friends".
Of course that money should go to other programs, even if to other "border" programs. But spending it on a bigly wall is a waste of course, but also sets precedent for a "king" to demand his wants if others do not acquiesce to his whims.
The emperor has no hair.
If talk of how Trump had a temper tantrum after the meeting is true, he was nowhere as satisfied as he claims, just as he tweets ‘no collusion’ after each aide’s indictment or confession
"The Wall," is one move for which Donald Trump does not have, and will not get, unified Republican support. That's why soon-to-be Speaker Pelosi kept saying "send it to the floor," and "do it." What ever nonsense the President was spouting about his 100% support in the House of Representatives, he would not win unanimous Republican support there and would lose a floor vote.
Knowing that, is part of why Pelosi is a great Speaker-in-waiting and will be a great Speaker come January.
1
Proud to shut down the government over "border security"?
That is not a winning issue. In fact, the President's work on it is one of the factors that diminished support for his party in the November elections.
All the President seems to have accomplished so far is to incarcerate children, waste funds by deploying troops where there is nothing for them to do, and incite the murder of eleven senior citizens at their peaceful place of religious worship.
1
Shutting down the only national government our USA has may "sound like reality" inside President Trump's head. Unfortunately for our nation and planet, the sounds he hears inside his head have no relation with. reality.
4
Knowing Trump, he won't back down.
This was a major campaign promise he made daily for over a year, and was nevertheless somehow elected on.
Making predictions on how Trump will fail never seems to work for the pundits, so we'll all be watching how this one works out.
6
@Chantal James
So why hasn't the Republican controlled congress given the money these past 2 years?
So I guess Mexico isn’t paying for it after all. I’m shocked. Shocked!
21
It is all Trump drama design to deflect and distract from the fact that he is a habitual and criminal liar who is not doing the Job. The economy is tanking. There is no health care replacement or public works bill. Immigrants are not destroying our country, Trump is doing it as part of the Putin plan to weaken the USA’s standing in the world.
23
The border wall is a dead issue. It will never be built. The wall is $5 billion in wasted money. It would become our Maginot line. Illegals have many ways to subvert it’s usefulness.
12
Schumer avoided eye contact like you would sitting next to a screaming drunk on the subway. He'll tire himself out soon. And you could almost read Pence's mind "One heartbeat away, one heartbeat away".
19
@markd - I think Pence is praying that no one notices him and starts asking about his part in the administrations misdeeds.
2
Trump could care less that Homeland security agents will not get paid for working not many other federal workers will miss paydays just before Christmas. Trump will fly down to Mar A-Lago on Airforce One costing the tax payers a fortune while he plays golf and hangs out with very rich members he got atax cut for. Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall ,sadly his cult of followers could care less what he says they just believe if he shot someone on 5th ave they would be fine with that, A scary state of affairs like a 3rd world kleptocracy family at the trough cashing in.
21
The whole thing looked like a child throwing a temper tantrum because his parents won’t buy him a pet unicorn while his parents are trying to tell him that the reason they won’t buy him a unicorn is because unicorns aren’t real.
22
This article portrays that Pelosi was able to catch Trump in a trap and trick him into taking responsibility for the government shutdown if it ever happens. Interesting that he would describe himself as willing to “take the mantle.” Are we to think that this unusual choice of words evoking the image of a bullfighter stepping into the ring was just unintentionally elicited from him by a wily adversary? He’s much more adept with his footwork than that. It was obviously planned in advance. Even more brilliant was his timing letting Pelosi and Schumer have their say and then overpowering them with his booming rhetoric which he delivered in a coda to the entire operatic performance. It was for the benefit of his base. This is the theater they have the price of admission for. It ultimately matters little to them whether that promised wall ever gets built. The show must go on. Unfortunately for Pelosi and Schumer they became nothing but his props.
3
I can’t believe we’re talking about $5B. It’s pocket change in our budget. Just give it to him. If you really believe the wall is a huge blunder, it’s all on him.
4
@Max
They cannot give him even a measly $5B because if they do the left who does want Open Borders will throw a fit. They are a party that is built around Identity Politics and they are Intolerant of any Dissent. She is not a Leader the way Trump is who sets the tone and then the masses march behind. The masses set the tone and she does the marching.
1
NO! Five billion is an estimate. Not a single dollar of hard earned Tax Payer money for this fake president's wall!!
No. Don’t give it to him.
2
I am one of Rep. Pelosi's constituents, and loudly applaud her standing up to the dishonesty of Sir Donald of Orange (apologies to my Dutch friends) in yesterday's meeting.
I noticed that she continually addressed him by his honorific title while he condescendingly first-named her. While I would like to see her address him as "Donny" or perhaps the more respectful "Donald", it would be much better if he were to accord her the same respect that he gives to the leader of the Senate. Maybe (ha ha) he will change on January 3rd, when she becomes Speaker of the House.
18
@Bluevoter
The PINO does the same with world leaders too. I remember him calling the president of Mexico by his first name. Very rude, condescending.
The Democrats -- and those who care about American democracy -- have to be careful. Trump and Putin win when Americans think there is no truth, when government seems ineffective, and when people lose respect for the law and norms. I fear that divided and ineffective government will play right into the autocrats' hands.
7
That is the intent. You first create a distrust in government institutions by appointing people that are dedicated to the destruction of those institutions, then you label the media as fake news, then you rig the election in such a way that you can declare yourself President for life. Trump is right on track.
Unfortunately that ship has sailed. Trump has trademarked divided and ineffective government all the while he sings Make America (Me) Great Again...thinking the rest of the world can’t tell the Emperor has no clothes.
I personally couldn't care less if I don't get the bureaucracy I pay for, for a few days. Especially if it's for a good cause like border security.
4
@jaco, the border "invasion" is totally fictional. It is an election ploy. You got scammed by candidate Trump.
2
@jaco - You're happy to pay for Trump's endless golf trips, his wife's spa trips and his kids business ventures. Your idea of a good cause isn't shared by most thinking people.
1
Why do you think he brought the cameras in while Schumer and Pelosi were begging to take it private? It was his show from beginning to end.
2
As reported, he was so upset with his showing, he threw papers down as he walk walked away from his humiliating performance. So at least he knows he blew it even if his supporters don’t.
2
Trump is going to take the blame for it, anyway. Might as well plan on it, along with conveying the "buck stops here" leadership approach. While listening to that back and forth in the Oval Office was very painful, what is just as painful is to read the news stories written by appalled journalists who don't appear to understand this man's personality and natural instincts at all. I didn't vote for him. I won't ever vote for him. But his tactics are coming through plain as day. This is how everyone got it wrong in 2016. They keep trying to force him into a construct that doesn't make sense. They analyze him and interpret his actions through their own lenses. And, honestly, I think they interpret his actions in a way that gives him the least credit possible. This man is a gambler, a risk-taker, a double-downer who recognizes a bottom line and speaks to that. Sometimes he will win and other times he won't. And I'm sure he is fine with that.
2
Like any compulsive gambler does, especially one who is gambling other people's money, like the put-on president that he is, Donald Trump will roll the dice every time and let the chips fall where they may. Make no mistake as to what the wall represents to Donald Trump and his followers. Think of it as a Confederate statue of sorts.
6
Where’s our infrastructure program and big beautiful healthcare?
10
Ha! Shut it down, I need the paid vacation (I'll be back paid for the administrative furlough).
The ~$5B won't even secure the land required to build a wall. Governmental land acquisition is a complicated legal process that can take years (minimally two for condemnation). The Govt needs to reimburse the landowners for access, buffer easements (you don't just acquire five feet on each side), Federal worker trespassing, land restoration, and long-term maintenance. It'll be $2B in Federal legal costs alone, even before you pay one land owner.
The real estate mogul should know this better than anyone. Oy!
12
Mr. Trump was essentially goaded on Tuesday by Representative Nancy Pelosi of California and Senator Chuck Schumer of New York ...
Maybe for Trump it is , but ordinarily, telling the truth is not goading.
3
We seek to beat the life and soul out of Trumpism and the Trump Presidency. That alone, that all the time, that to the end.
God bless America and God bless democracy and let's put Trump where he belongs and it's a kind of house, but not the White House. He is our biggest threat since WW II and the Cold War
6
In one breath you bless democracy and in the next you advocate putting the duly elected President in jail?
@William
No in a mental hospital where he can receive treatment, though not cured. There is no cure for Trump but he is a danger to himself and others. Presently he is more a danger to us than himself. There is nothing antidemocratic about protecting the people from a false and unfit demagogue who won by finagling and fake news.
The Greeks ostracized dangerous leaders- I suspect the Athenians would understand our dilemma with Trump
The whole scene makes you think back to the Trump Campaign. Trump.."Mexico is going to pay for the wall." Trump to his crowds.."Who's going to pay for the wall?" The lemmings respond..."Mexico." Yes we need strong borders/security. Just playing the old "fear card" that's been employed for decades.
9
I'd rather not see a Berlin Wall on our southern border (or any border, actually). It won't be as effective as Trump wants, without armed guards, anyway.
7
He flipped the script the moment he felt his back against the wall. It was a way to make himself appear powerful. He was standing up to the people pushing him into a corner, threatening to use the power he has to blow it all up in order to take a stand for his core followers.
The miscalculation is that if he actually follows through, I think most of those effected will turn on him, including those who were his supporters.
But we know him now, so while we report and read about this, let's just keep in mind that if he's dumb enough to do this (with the support of the Republicans), and it all backfires, he'll pretend this never happened (despite it being recorded), turn around, and blame it on Pelosi and Schumer. This is what he does.
Maybe when he does it, the various news outlets will play the video montage of the times he said Mexico would pay for the wall. Then play the video where he said he would shut down the government if the government didn't approve us, the tax payers, paying for the wall. Then, and only then, play his lies blaming the Dems.
13
Sadly, I doubt anything can hurt him. When he has done things to hurt his base (like sanctions against China), they have largely stood by him believing this was the little hit of pain they have to tolerate before they start winning like they’ve never won before.
If/when he shuts down the government and they lose their services, they will just blame democrats for being uncooperative.
Trump never loses. No matter what he does. 42% of the people blindly follow him.
3
The picture shows both the current president and the future president and I am not talking about Mike Pence. Flynn is going to take them both down and hmmmmm who takes over in that case? Madame President Pelosi.
15
Offering a very simple solution - the Democrats should offer to fund the wall as a dollar for dollar match for any funding directly provided by the Mexican Government, up to a specified amount. The President would only have to live up to half of his commitment to having Mexico pay for the wall.
12
It's like threatening divorce over something stupid, and getting the divorce against your own better judgement. Also known as emotional blackmail. Trump is a bad spouse, bad negotiator, and a terrible poker player. He was double-banked by the pros.
11
I stopped halfway through when the article states that winning wall money was a central facet of Trump’s 2016 campaign. The central facet of the wall promise was that Mexico would be paying, not American taxpayers! Why is this constantly glossed over? It was a 2-part call and response at Every. Single. Rally. ‘What are we going to do?’ ‘Build the wall!!!’ ‘Who’s going to pay?’ ‘Mexico!!!’
19
Pelosi has realized that if you attach the name 'Trump' to anything, the president will take ownership of it. You could say the Trump murder, or the Trump cesspool, and I believe Donald would perk up and embrace it as his own, probably insist he came up with it in the first place, that he fired the gun or dug the hole.
13
It’s amazing to hear how many non-trump supporters are certain we have to solve the immigration “crisis”. What crisis is this?! How has your life been negatively impacted by immigrants?!
We are a capitalist society. The reason that illegal immigration exists is because there’s an economic advantage to it. Immigrants come here because they have jobs waiting. We allow it because the American consumer benefits from cheap wages.
Instead, we have a propaganda crisis. In place of worrying about sustainable immigration, we ought to be more concerned that the everyday American has such a hard time discerning fact from fantasy.
19
@Matt Y
Your last sentence applies more to you than anyone you had in mind when you wrote it. People benefit from others breaking the law? The people fleeing those failed states are coming here because they lack the rule of law. So your answer is let more people break the law. Why should I pay my taxes? If we all do whatever we want how long until we become those failed states? For the record and since you don't know, I have been negatively impacted by illegal immigrants. Every time I stand in line in a store, or at the laundromat and in the jobs that are no longer available because some illegal who will work for less was hired in front of me. I have been on the construction sites and on the workshop floor and seen the dearth of American born workers. You have benefited clearly with lower prices but notice you don't offer what you do for a living. Could it be some kind of work that no illegal can possibly do? You are immune from the consequences but enjoying the benefits and come here to trumpet that? Read that last sentence again and then open your eyes you just described yourself.
2
The GOP controls the House, Senate and President. But, it the Democrats fault he has passed his wall deal in the last 2 years. Oh, yes, where is Mexico's contribution? And the caravan invasion? Only a fool with think Pelosi lost to Trump.
9
This so-called meeting is an example of Trump's lack of concern for the many vulnerable elderly and children relying on the services and entitlements they rely on for health care, food and shelter that will be cut off during a shutdown. Add to that his insensitivity to impact on the hard-working Federal workers who will not be paid during a shut down. My guess is Trump sees these harms as an extra benefit, since he is campaigning for re-election through this pathetic example of what he calls "the deal".
73
Are people, especially men, that weak that they can't fix their own countries? Why must every single person on Earth come to The U.S.?
5
Best described by Trevor Noah as bickering at a nursing home. It went like this:
Trump: give me the remote !
Pelosi: Mr. President, you do not have enough batteries in the remote.
Schumer: because I took out one battery.
Trump: I want to watch Judge Jeanine !
Pelosi: no Mr. President, we all agree that there is something better on tv.
Schumer: losing batteries has consequences, Mr. President.
Trump: if you do not give me the remote, I'll unplug the tv for good !
Pelosi: soon, I'll have all the batteries Mr. President
Schummer, looking at the camera: you know he is in trouble when he must watch Judge Judy.
Pence (in his mind): someday, he'll croak and I'll get the remote.
8
@mynameisnotsusan
Is that the same Trevor Noah who took over a successful show from Jon Stewart and then promptly killed it with his unabashed TDS? The one who I gave a chance to when he started who drove me away with his politics? Didn't know he was ever relevant to anyone.
@GregP
How is it that mention of Trump's lies, corruption, incompetence, etc., amounts to TDS?
1
@GregP - If you ever watched Jon Stewart you would have seen that he's no fan of the rabid right.
1
I love The reference to the movie a few good men perfect
4
If this spending package is contingent upon a very large wire transfer from Mexico to pay for this (it was a promise!) then I guess they can put the thing up.
Although I’m sure Mexico agrees with the majority of Americans that this is pure idiocy.
5
This “the president’s opportunities to win the wall money — a central facet of his 2016 campaign” is a surprisingly inaccurate statement by the NYT. Trump never campaigned on winning wall money from Congress. “Who will pay for the wall?... Mexico!”
7
Just image Trump sitting across the table from Mr. Mueller and his team of skilled prosecutors. He will fold in NY minute.
10
Trump's strong throated fake caravan threats didn't deliver the popular vote to the republicans in the midterms. So how is shutting down the government going to change voters' minds?
A Trump Shutdown will only deliver more republican retirement announcements in 2020. And provide an easy to follow connect the dots path to the demise of the Republican Party.
8
This isn't so much about Donald Trump pinning a government shutdown on himself as it is about making sure he's the only one in the spotlight.
11
Dems need to think this through.
The economy's great.The President is trying to stop illegal immigration, an effort which has bipartisan support on Main Street.
But, but, he paid off a couple of porn stars and might have been in the know of a dozen Russian trolls who furiously posted fake news from a basement in St. Petersburg.
Dems lose 2020.
I liked the way you tried to hide felony-level violations of campaign finance law, collaboration with Vladimir Putin and a whole passel of other wealthy crookthugs, and the same old lying about how commies want open borders, behind that tattered banner with “But the Economy’s Great!!!” on it.
Oh, well. Not much one can do about hallucinations from folks who fled the country.
9
@ExpatSam - You might want to start reading some economic news.
1
Shut it down for two years. And if, heaven forbid necessary, for six years.
2
whether the illegal immigrants pay for "the Wall" by taxing their remittances or our U.S. Citizens pay for the funding of "the Wall" taxing their "starvation wages,"...the "SHUTDOWN" will affect the American people, furlough non-essential employees ,close Government facilities, and all this time while Ms. Pelosi, Mr. Schumer, Vice-Pres. Pence and Pres. Trump are posing the Press,the hippocampus within all of them are ... thinking " I thought Mexico was paying for the Wall!" …...and under the silent eyes ( Portraits ) of Washington and Jefferson looking down upon them...……….'God Bless America"...
I’m afraid you’re reading too much into this. There is no method here. He got angry and seized on the first thing that crossed his addled mind. Schumer and Pelosi were ready. That was the difference. The story is about them having strategy, not President Dumpsterfire.
14
What was with Mike Pence during all of this? Was he re-booting?
8
@susan,
Yup.
He suffered a check-sum error and shut down, just to be safe.
1
trump admitted that he will shut down his own government over a stupid wall we don't need. We have commuter trains running over century-old obsolete bridges and repubs want to waste tax dollars on a stupid wall that is defeated by a ladder or tunnel.
15
Remember last year when Trump played this same game with a government shutdown and immigration and then blamed the Democrats? He even changed the official voicemail at the WH. Guess he won't be able to do that again since he said it was HIS shutdown. BTW, that voicemail violated the Hatch Act.
"Following the government shutdown, the Trump administration changed the outgoing voicemail message for all public calls to the White House. The message now informs callers that the Democrats are to blame for the shutdown and slams them for holding military members' salaries "hostage," among other ills."
https://www.dailywire.com/news/26158/trump-troll-white-house-voicemail-blasts-dems-amanda-prestigiacomo
4
I don't understand the big deal.
Trump promised repeatedly during the campaign that he would build the wall and that Mexico would pay for it.
If he can't persuade Mexico to pay for the wall, then it's a dead issue. End of story.
It really is that simple.
11
We live in the worst of possible worlds.
We have a terrible president. But he is right about illegal immigration being a serious problem. On the other hand, he is a terrible spokesperson for that position.
Democrats have been wrong about immigration for decades. Not only are they wrong, but they characterize those who disagree as racists and bigots. The result is a toxic political environment, in which Congress fails to act as a viable institution.
Politicians of both parties peddle simplistic solutions that cannot work. Thus Trump's border wall seems designed to inflame hatred of immigrants, while America's poor look for somebody to protect them from what they see as declining living standards driven by immigration.
At first, I thought Trump might benefit the nation by shifting the discussion. I hoped that quieter voices would ultimately prevail and there would be discussion of viable solutions.
Something like continued trade with Mexico contingent on Mexico's providing access to family planning for its citizens, and encouraging smaller family size.
A gradual strengthening in e-verify together with efforts to improve employment prospects within Mexico.
In short a collaborative effort to stabilize population growth in both the US and Mexico and enhance living standards in both countries.
Putting limits on immigration seems reasonable to me. But I do not share Trump's penchant for blaming foreigners for America's problems.
1
I don’t spoze you’d be able to offer a quick précis of what, say, Hillary Clinton’s actual positions on immigration were?
I’m betting not.
2
Jake, you forget that Republicans do not believe in family planning, and that many of the immigrants/refugees are not Mexican. They come from other Central American countries which are struggling with violence and food shortages partially due to drought made worse by climate change. Much of the violence can be traced to drug wars, and we shouldn't forget the u.s. is the major market for those drugs.
3
It wasn't the Democrats who refused to consider the bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill passed by the Senate in 2013. The reason we have no immigration reform is solely the work of the House Republicans. I urge the new House Democratic majority to quickly bring it to the floor and pass it!
4
Trump conceived this entire event as a way to sandbag the Democrats. They can act with decorum, but Democrats should be prepared to make full-on challenges to Trump in front of the country.
For example, next time Chuck and/or Nancy should put Pence on the spot, just to see if he has a pulse or the courage to speak. For instance, they could have turned to him and asked if he supports a "Trump shutdown." And then watch the tension rise between Trump and his VP.
And when Trump says things like "10 terrorists" have been intercepted at the border, press him for details in front of the cameras, like who were they, where were they from, what were they plotting? And then pause and watch Trump dither in front of the cameras.
5
The president is a Republican. The Senate is dominated by Republicans. The House is dominated by Republicans. The House speaker is a Republican. The head of the Senate is a Republican. The VP is a Republican, and all of the Cabinet are Republicans. Why are they having so much trouble passing a bill? They passed their tax cuts for themselves faster than greased lightning. Could it be that even people in the president's own party think that a wall is a dumb idea? Could it be that wealthy Republicans benefit from having "open borders" (to borrow the term embraced by Republicans whenever they are looking for something to bludgeon the Democrats with)? Could it be that Republican employers like being able to hire cheap foreign labor just as much as Democrats do? Could it be that wealthy Republicans know that the president is bluffing about the wall? After all, our president is also one of those wealthy Republicans who like to hire cheap foreign labor, even though he knows it is illegal. Why don't we ever see rich employers being arrested and charged for violating immigration laws, after they've hired a passel of undocumented workers for their slaughterhouses, their strawberry fields, their chain restaurants or their janitorial staffs? It is illegal for business owners to hire undocumented workers. Yet, oddly enough, we never see these owners actually being arrested or charged.
12
A Republican dream since Ron Reagan’s “starve the beast” ... no functioning Federal Government excepting the US Military and the NRA. These people only want US Agencies open so that those agencies can unwound, dismantled and wrecked by the crony capitalist who have been sent in there to do the wrecking. I’m hoping Trump will be wearing stripes soon and not bankers pin stripes. And do r let him tweet from prison.
4
So this was a "photo op"; not a debate forum - even so...
Commentary on this meeting, and much of what we are allowed to see of politics, offers color commentary fit for a professional wrestling meet. I continue to hunger for reporting on the operation of a government that levies taxes, makes laws, disburses the national budget, influences our lives. We continue to take the bait of such easy, lowbrow entertainment in place of hearing an informed dialogue. Costumes, posture, facial expressions, etc. are the consuming interest - but never an exchange on the topic at hand in any but the most superficial depth. One might as well watch football, or comedy.
Why are we never privy to a discussion among our elected representatives that explains the rationale behind their positions? I am tired of the endless analysis of who won the argument. We don't have the basic information to understand the ramifications of the policies. So we take sides based on a personality contest, or tribal membership.
One lone voice among these comments calls for a "study" of Trump's wall. I call for an explanation - what does he want to build and why is this the best approach? What is the opposition promoting as a better answer? Where is the reporting on the substance of this issue, not the drama?
Swinging red coats and throw pillows are circus props; at least toss us ticketholders some bread to chew on! Then, maybe we'd have the intelligence on board to comment meaningfully. C'mon Times, defog.
2
Perhaps the plan of Mexico funding the wall instead of American tax payers can avoid this theatrical shutdown. Although I have friends working for the government who would like a few more paid days with their families over the holidays.
Dear President Bone Spurs, you want that wall make one of your deals with Mexico. If that doesn't work try taking back those beautiful tax cuts you gave to the 1% the money they owe could help fund that thing. If that still doesn't work give up.
Your book could have been called The Art of the Con or Dealmaking for Dummies.
3
Sick in the head. Not complicated.
1
That Trump insisted on having cameras shows that the purpose of the meeting was for Trump to perform for his base. Which he did. He will act tough about his wall until, once again, he caves.
Democrats should hang tough. Trump loves to perform for his fans but he is a lousy negotiator and Congressional Republicans will not back him on this - Trump's performance was, predictably, mostly greeted by silence from his fellow Republicans or, where they said anything, it was some bland comment about not wanted to shut down government.
Ok let’s take a look at how well previous walls worked out. I’ll sum it up for you. Not well. Why would a wall start to work now? Especially when we have a president who is willing to shut down branches of the government, the very thing that keeps America running! Our president had a temper tantrum on tv, and proudly said that he was willing to shut down the government, for border patrol no less!
6
@Misa Lee
Next time he ask for money for the wall, the Democratic Party should bring up two points...over and over:
You said publicly that MEXICO would pay for the wall, so Americans will not.
The last 'wall' I recall was in East Germany. How'd that work out?
8
Prediction: The government doesn't shut down. Trump is all bluster to impress his base.
4
This has nothing to do with border security. It’s just Trump pandering to his immigrant hating base. He hasn’t even spent the $1.6B he got last year. He clearly doesn’t care about making deals with Congress after blindsiding Pelosi and Schumer at yesterday’s photo op. Not that they would trust him in any case. Even though he said he would own a shutdown, he wil most certainly blame Democrats.
3
Yawn.
2
He didn’t flip the script. There is no method. He got trapped by two smarter people, panicked, and said something idiotic. He will probably just walk it back like he always does after his handlers explain things to him and face no consequences because we live in Hell now.
19
Decades of illegal immigration have been associated with stagnant wages. Econ 101 teaches us that inflating the supply of labor through illegal immigration depresses wages.
The typical retort is that Americans won't do those job. Exactly! Americans won't do those jobs at the depressed wages.
We must openly discuss the link between illegal immigration, and flat wages, which lead to increasing income inequality.
4
By engaging with him on camera, they are playing his game. And we are playing too, by watching. Victory is not the border wall. It is, and always has been, media attention. Score another win for trump: we remain fascinated by him.
1
On reality TV shows, where Donnie got his training to become America's Top Republican, conflict is king and scenarios are developed for maximum conflict. This often involves starting with one character espousing an opinion that conflicts with that of the other characters. Then there's disagreement, at which point, the character with the contrary opinion may suddenly flip and change his mind for no apparent reason. However, the aim is not to achieve consensus and harmony, which is what those of us living in the real world seek. The purpose is to create confusion -- hopefully chaos -- and then the audience gets to wallow in the drama until another opinion surfaces or someone has a change of heart and the controversy flares up again. Reality TV is a never-ending cycle of emotional conflict, confusion, and chaos. And that is what we got when the Electoral College installed America's Top Republican in the office of President of the United States. We are stuck with an ironclad four-year broadcasting contract, and we are not allowed to change the channel, either. The American people got a raw deal. But a reality TV show is what we get when we look to Fox, Rupert Murdoch, some oligarchs, and a few Internet conspiracy theorists for answers to real-life questions.
8
Moments ago, in another post, I offered a serious comment on the substance of yesterday's WH meeting. However, given the gravity of Trump's political situation (and ours), I forgot to mention the equally weighty issue of Presidential succession. The bottom line is: do we have a Vice President who can take command when Trump is exiled to Mar A Lago or St. Helena? Is Pence alive or was that an automaton we were looking at yesterday? If he is alive, is he catatonic? What happened? He looks so drawn, so inanimate. The public deserves an answer.
7
@john belniak - I think Pence is hoping that if he sits very still and is very quiet, no one will ask him about his part in the Russian debacle.
3
Well this seems more like a ploy to give his base something to cheer about rather than a realistic policy position. The "wall" is Trump's clarion call to the base to rally around and help him survive Mueller and the oncoming Democratic investigations into his campaign for conspiring with Russia to tip the election in his favor. The base will drink the Kool-Aid but the rest of us will bail on Trump. Trump wants his wall as a monument to himself. But the more sane citizens of the nation won't climb onto that bandwagon. That is why Mitch McConnell blanched when he was told that Trump wanted a shutdown. Nancy and Chuck just maneuvered the Donald into one of the most untenable political positions in politics. One thing is clear whoever is blamed for the shutdown always loses and in this case it will be President Trump.
3
Excellent! Glad to hear that Trump is ready to own shutting down his own so-called "government." It'll only go to prove what an effective job Democrats are doing to stop Trump destroying the nation and the world!
2
Mitch McConnell "repeatedly vowed to avoid shutdowns at all costs to try to project a Republican image of government competency."
"Republlicans" and "government competency"--there is the oxymoron, right there. This from the party that hates and is determined to weaken the government--except the military and all that transfer of taxpayer dollars to Big Corporate and those government welfare crony capitalists mooching off government contracts & largesse. After all, "what" is government for? Or more appropriately for the GOP, "who" is government for?
So let Trump grandstand and play to his base by cavalierly shutting down the government to prove his manhood and to foment another "crisis" to divert attention from the Mueller investigation and his flagrant incompetence and failures.
So, the first of the totally unnecessary and incompetents working for the federeal government to be furloughed should be President Trump and his cabinet.
Just think for a few days, weeks, or months, no governing and twittering government policy by Trump.
No Betsy DeVos bludgeoning public education in favor of for-profit private education to benefit her investor family and pals.
No head of environmental agencies doing everything to make air, water, and access to public lands worse.
No Secretary of State Pompeo siding with the murderous Saudis and making a sham of diplomacy and foreign relations.
Tell Trump: no money for the Wall since he broke the bank with his tax cut for the rich.
6
"A central facet of his 2016 campaign". Saving for the fact, the central feature of that, was Mexico was paying for it. How is he off the hook for that?
6
Trump thinks that he's doing a good thing by trying to make Americans fear people that are only trying to get a better life.
That is the very thing that is wrong with Trump, he doesn't think, he acts like a child.
Do our borders need protection, yes, however not with walls.
Our border guards for the most part do a great job and maybe we need more of them.
But walls in the way Trump wants them built, only show fear and we here in America are smart enough to not fear people looking for a better life.
What we really need is to Make America Grownup Again.
2
How much additional money are the REPUBLICANS going to waste?
Trump said yesterday that he is not worried about the deficit because he will be gone when it becomes a problem
Trump is evil, it's that simple.....no governing going on, its all about Trumps personal financial gains at this point
3
It's a shame when the No.2 guy, the VP, can't stay awake during a televised discussion he is park of.
51
@AJ good one, so true
1
@AJ: I heard one TV commentator describe Pence's behavior as Bernie Lomax in Weekend at Bernie's.
1
@jas2200 Yes, excellent!!!
After Pelosi advised Trump that speaking privately about their dispute would be more productive, Trump proclaimed airing the dispute publicly was good, it was transparency.
Hmmm, so Mr. Trump, let Mueller question you in public about Russia so we can be clear as a bell and fully transparent.
17
And how about unsealing the White House visitor logs and not tearing up all your paper communications into tiny pieces? Oh, and how about those tax returns?
5
Trump is right about one thing. Illegal immigration has been a disaster for the US. It causes the US population to rise. As a result funds are shifted from university education to K12, and training of engineers and doctors falls on a per capita basis. This makes for a greater disparity between rich and poor and exponential growth in the cost of medical care in the US.
But Trump has been terrible in initiating a discussion on HOW to stop illegal immigration.
The border wall is not likely to be very effective.
Better approaches would include helping Mexico deal with its own overpopulation problem by making trade contingent upon Mexico providing all of citizens with a right to family planning options. This is difficult because it might be opposed by the Catholic church, but it is a fundamental human rights issue.
Then with population in the US stabilizing, the US could recognize that some manufacturing jobs SHOULD be done in Mexico. Why not have auto plants in Mexico, for example?
This would raise living standards in Mexico and lead to our own firms selling more autos, some to Mexican citizens.
In short, we shouldn't be looking at Mexico as "the enemy" but rather attempting to stabilize not only our own population growth but that of Mexico, and provide higher living standards in both countries.
Yes, Trump is right that we should control our borders. But why not stress the importance to both the US and Mexico of solving this problem collaboratively?
1
Well, Jake, the problem with your argument is that capitalism demands growth and the US is not reproducing itself. Without a major retooling of the American economic structure (unthinkable in the land of the free), the US needs immigrants of all types.The face of America is changing and that change cannot be stopped. The days of WASP dominance are numbered.
5
@Doug Thomson
Um, never heard of automation? AI? Manual labor and low skilled jobs are disappearing faster than the 3rd world is reproducing. Probably the only thing that is out accelerating their population growth is the loss of jobs to automation. Robots will do the work that immigrants once used to do and then what will we do with all those uneducated masses who live in a world they didn't help to build but are good at having lots of babies?
1
I question the validity of your argument. For starters, refugees are coming from Central America, not Mexico.
1
Does our national security require a border wall? How have we survived all these years without one? Have we just been lucky that peoples from southern countries have not already overrun our country, raped our women, killed our children, and enslaved us all? Maybe I'm a jerk, but sitting in my house in Westchester I feel as secure as I've ever been. I don't want to waste money that we don't have on a wall we don't need. If that is bad politics, if that is falling into Trump's trap, then I don't care because it is wrong to build a wall and I always want to do the right thing.
6
Yesterday's "negotiation" in four was a terrible display of ineptitude. Schumer was more interested in jabbing and taunting the prez, occasionally looking at the cameras, Pelosi was mirroring Trump's incoherence, and Trump was a long list of things, starting with a hysterical little boy throwing a tantrum. Pelosi came across as the only adult in the room when she realized that everybody's demeanour is influenced by the cameras. Pence was the dummy in the bridge game and sat quiet dreaming about the day when he will replace Trump. I expected more from the two Democrats. Silly me !
2
What politician would shut down the government just before Christmas? This is pure bluster.
3
Look at your calendar! Everybody is leaving anyway. Congress goes home 2/21, shutdown or not. Essential personnel show up whether it's Christmas or New Years. Most govt employees who have annual leave time have scheduled those days off already. They won't be paid double for vacation days.
Looking forward to the usual deserted streets and quiet city of Washington. Happens every year. Trump knows that. Did Nancy and Chuck forget?
McConnell will never go along with a Trump shutdown.
Mitch McConnell would eat babies if it benefitted him politically.
4
Okay, no more playing Mr. Nice Guy to President Trump:
Nancy Pelosi for president!
5
“The last time you shut it down, it didn’t work. I will take the mantle of shutting down, and I’m going to shut it down for border security.”
Merry Christmas, dear country,
Ps: Have Dems ever used shutdown as a lever? I don't think so, it's always GOP.
6
Trump is playing the Everyman and it contrasts well with the business as usual corporate Washington politicians that no one likes.
Pelosi and Schumer are playing their old mealy mouth game from years past, with the trickery and assumptions of back-room dealing.
But the Wave that Bernie and Trump rode was anti-insider Washington - a wave of change. Trump's naive transparency against smug belt-way Washington looks good in contrast.
Here we have the Wave crashing against an obdurate Washington. Too bad it was about that moronic Wall.
1
I don't know what the big fuss is... all I envision is Trump's family enjoying Bear's Ears without the crowds, perfect photo op, just like Christ Christie's family at Island Beach Park during NJ's shutdown. MNPGA (Make National Parks Great Again).
2
Mexico is finally off the hook.
6
The hallmark of a bully - the bluff. This faker always plays this hand and unfortunately the people on the other side of the table are wimps or simply back down. Thus he gets more than he would have bargained for in good faith. His extreme 'bad' faith on his deals begets much collateral and direct damage - but never in his corrupt view.
PS - I think Pelosi should offer to build the wall along the old Mason Dixon line and also include her home state. Then all the trumpites can return to the glory of the south, sing Dixie and be forever happy.
3
If he can try to talk down to them by calling them Nancy and Chuck, can they call him "The Donald?"
6
Obama did that too.
Drives me crazy in both cases. Disrespectful.
Wish they'd stop.
But don't complain about Trump if you didn't complain when Obama did it.
You need $5 billion for a wall? The government ordered 2,424 F35 aircraft. Why do we need so many? What we have now is no good for hitting Al Queda and ISIS?
The F35's cost $210 million apiece. Cancel 20 of them. There's your $5 billion. End of problem!
5
Whaat the heck. He told me that Mexico was paying for the wall in order to get my vote. He also claims to be richer than rich, so why doesn’t that bad hombre pay for it himself?
7
The lady Senator hits the nail on the head, the Wall is a manhood thing with the stable genius, white nationalist President of the United States.
11
Put the vote to the floor...you got the legislative votes put up or shut up...its simple
4
Trump has said 100 times or more ......Mexico will pay for the wall ......remind him .....he must have forgot....tell him.....get the money from Mexico
7
Funny how Trump and his devoted groupies blindly accept the idea that a wall will keep Mexicans of bad character out, yet those with truly bad character - those have killed and wounded dozens by committing massacres in shopping malls, music festivals, stores, movie theaters, churches, etc. are NEVER Mexicans but instead consist almost entirely of white male gun nuts born and raised in this country.
Tell me again exactly who this wall is supposed to defend against when the true enemy is already in our midst with the NRA as their faithful bodyguard?
9
Trump flipped nothing. He got flipped. It's truly troubling to see the newspaper of record doing backflips to make him more credible than he is. Your pandering is truly evil. That's the word.
4
STOMP STOMP STOMP ... if you don't build my wall, I'll get you, yes I will, you just wait and see ... STOMP STOMP STOMP
Our "president" folks.
3
Yesterday's mini-debate in the White House was easily won by soon-to-be Speaker Pelosi. Clearly, the Democrats have a Congressional leader with the skills, wit and grace to stop much of the Trump nonsense. After all, she and those she leads in the House control all Federal spending.
President Trump's days of dominating a supine GOP-controlled Congress are over on January 3, 2019.
4
Part of being a good leader involves a recognition of ones mistakes, taking ownership of them and being prepared to work to fix the problem. It has been so long since I heard a leader on either side of the pond take ownership for a mistake that Emmanuel Macron really stood out to be yesterday. Emmanuel Macron of France is under increasing pressure to explain why his office did not report Benalla’s (a member of Macrons security team) actions to the police after video appeared to show, a member of Macrons security team assaulted a protestor whilst wearing police riot gear. He [Macron] said there was no attempt to cover up the incident and he considered his staff had done “what they had to do”.
“What I know is that the following day, as soon as it was known, my staff at the Élysée took actions to punish him. The punishment was judged proportional,” he said. He went on to say:
“The only person responsible for this affair is me, and me alone. Who gave Benalla his trust? Me, the president of the republic. I’m the one who knew about it and approved the punishment. It was me, only me,”
The contrast to Trump and the Brexiteers is shocking, and to me, very depressing.
2
This was just a made for TV moment engineered by Trump to stir up his base by equating border security to his wall in simplistic terms. Nancy and Chuck were too nice to him and should have made simple points to turn this back on Trump. Neither pointed out to him that Trump promised in the past that Mexico would pay for the wall. Harp on this point and at least ask him why that is not now the case. Also Nancy, when advising Trump to pass funding for his wall in the House, should have challenged his statement when he said it would pass in the House. She should have said prove it and then we can talk about your wall. Show that you have the votes in the House for your wall. After all if Trump could get it passed in the House there would be more pressure on senate democrats and any shutdown would look it was caused by them blocking it in the Senate.
1
Once Again, Trump has shown that he is NOT the President of the United States; but its Enemy. He thinks nothing about the Damage he will \do by ATTACKING the United States Government with his Threat to 'Shut it Down' if we don't give him Billions to steal.
2
The wall was and still is a campaign tactic. Historically, walls simply inspire ways to countervail them. It is already too late to build a wall now. The drug cartels and other smugglers have already dug the tunnels they need to stay in business for years to come. Illegal immigrants come to find a better way of life and are not the problem as the administration continues to repeat. Border enforcement and drug interdiction are the ways to most effectively deal with the criminal element.
The wall is still a good strategy for Trump.
1
Why didn't anyone call him out on his very own campaign promise? Mexico was going to finance the wall. No taxpayer money was to be used to fund it. Why hasn't anyone called him out on this??? Apparently his base is ok with his idea that they will after all end up paying.
4
Trump couldn't run a respectful meeting if his life depended on it. Certainly not with people who have some knowledge or experience in government.
But he continues to get away with this among republicans. The GOP has become a national cult following, except perhaps with less adherence to verifiable fact and truth. They have no problem with what appears to be some low-functioning version of a crime boss and his family business running the most powerful government in the world.
It isn't that things don't stick to him, though, he's not a teflon president as Reagan was. Everything sticks. He's more of a Swamp-thing President.
He just needs the right staff to get his mojo back on after Fox & Friends have signed off, you know, tell him how good he looks, what a hero he is. And then there's a twitter stew, a new fox & Friends, and we're off and running.
This isn't a presidency so much as a high-stakes carnival with a couple hundred million extremely dissatisfied customers.
1
The whole wall business is a complete farce. It will not have any measurable effect on illegal immigration unless you wish to assign a un-calculable discouragement factor to it. And, $5 billion is the proverbial drop in the bucket. It would cost many times that number to complete the building of it along the parts of the roughly 2,000 mile border we share with Mexico where it is even feasible to erect it. And the cost to build it would be the proverbial drop in the bucket to the cost of guarding it since an unguarded wall is virtually useless.
The wall was, is and always will be the ultimate dogwhistle from Trump to his base. For reasons beyond my ken, the Democrats seem unwilling to call it what it is in public. Allow me to help you.
The core of Trump supporters are members of a cult. You will never convince them that anything that Trump says is a lie or anything he does isn't the best thing for America and its future. Nor will they ever support any opponent of Trump. Thus, you needn't hold back when arguing with Trump. Tell him to stop the dogwhistling and get down to business. He won't do it, of course, but, at least you will no longer be playing the game according to Trump 'rules'.
By the by, has there ever been a ruder or less mannered President than Trump? Don't think so.
2
What about the fact that he promised that Mexico he would be able to make Mexico pay for the wall? Call him out on that. Not such a great negotiator after all. What a surprise!
4
@Katrina
If it makes you feel better and to answer you and the dozens of others who question it as a Trump voter I do not care one little iota that Mexico will not directly pay for the wall. I just care that it gets built. So call him out on that all you want its called playing to the choir. That would be your own choir, not the one that elected Trump.
Israel has a wall around Gaza. A very militarized border where those on the other side are true terrorists who want to destroy Israel.
The length of the wall is tiny in comparison with the US-Mexico border. Yet, tunnels are constructed and Israel has to constantly monitor and track them.
Trump wall will not stop anyone committed to make it through. That’s a fact. In order to prevent break ins, the cost of monitoring will be astronomical.
A wall may make sense in highly populated areas, like San Diego where it can easily be monitored. It makes no sense across the entire border.
1
@BWCA Generalize much? So by your logic every Palestinian is a terrorist. Interesting.
Really NYT? That's the headline you're going with?
Time to dump my NYT subscription I think. He clearly wanted this to be a reality show moment where he gets the best of those pesky democrats and the world watches. In reality he got owned and effectively took ownership of a future government shutdown.
The Times is trying real hard to not look biased and in doing so is sacrificing its reputation in doing so. The only reason your subscriber numbers went up after the election is because we have a grade A certified moron in office and it's like you want to shed those new subscribers because you don't want to make the people who don't subscribe angry?
3
Stopping illegal immigration is worth shutting down the government temporarily. A border wall is not.
Since 1986, when the last comprehensive immigration bill was passed, the US population has increased by about 86 million or 36%. In the long run such population growth is unsustainable. It has contributed to a wider disparity between rich and poor. It contributes to social problems such as the high rate of incarceration. The US has an incarceration rate 14 times as high as Japan; over 2 million Americans are in jail or prison, perhaps 4 million more on probation and parole.
Most of the population growth is due to immigration, and much of it to illegal immigration, to the children of illegal immigrants and to chain migration sponsored by immigrants who want to unite families.
The reason for illegal immigration is population growth which is out of control in third world countries. The population of Guatemala has increased from about 3 million in 1950 to about 17 million now.
In wealthy societies, families choose to have fewer children. This does not happen in many third world countries.
We need no less than a rethinking of traditional morality. In an overpopulated world, people no longer have a right to have an unlimited number of children.
On the other hand, they should have a right to access to the full spectrum of family planning. Countries like Guatemala which have not provided for access to birth control are guilty of a human rights abuse.
3
Understand Homeland Security Department is one of the agencies affected by budget negotiations and deadline. Will Trump shut down the very agency responsible for border security and immigration control? Wonder what his base thinks about that?
5
What exactly is Mike Pence doing? And does it make anyone else anxious he’s a heart beat or an indictment away from the Presidency? We’re in trouble.
3
@Dave - If Trump goes down Pence will probably go down with him. There's no way that he's innocent in all of this.
Ultimately Trump benefits from an erosion of government institutions. He's not bound by any convention or tradition, and he has the immovable support of his base, from which he draws power over Republicans in Congress, if not wider legitimacy. Democrats are still blinkered in believing they get a win by placing blame. Trump's goal, whether he realizes it or not, is to so utterly smash the system that he can sweep it aside in favor of his cult of personality.
2
Has anyone noticed how our "VP OF The USA was sitting stone faced during the sit-down in the conference between Trump and heads of the Democratic Party. Was he thinking how long do I have to wait until this guy next to me will be out of office and I am in?
4
I don’t know why the press has such a maddening propensity to present Trump’s “wall” platform without its second half, “and Mexico will pay for it.” The wall, reminiscent of the failed Berlin Wall, was and remains an asinine idea, but regardless, Trump’s program assured the American public this monument to madness would cost the American people nothing, nada. Of course it will cost far, far more than the $5 billion Trump is demanding; Mexico will not pay a single peso; the wall won’t work anyhow; it will never be completed; and its bits and pieces will stand as a testament to intolerance.
6
She could have asked why he thought it was a good idea, considering largest trade imbalance with China and at 21 trillion in debt and rising.
3
When will we realize that Trump cares totally nothing about his place in history? Trump is so self-centered that the only thing he sees is what is in it for Trump. Trump and his family are setting themselves up for years of wealth. Does anyone really think Trump cares about a wall when he has undocumented people working on his properties? Trump cannot bring himself to be critical of Putin or MSB because he knows where his money is coming from. Trump is not the master dealer but he is the master conman.
7
"...project a Republican image of government competency."
Optics are everything for the GOP and their sound-bite, low-information followers.
2
Every time this happens it shines a light on a glaring error in our system of government. When it keeps happening, with different people in congress and the presidency, the problem is not the people but the system. Perhaps passing a bipartisan budget should be a litmus tests for congress and the president. No budget agreement and they all are thrown out and we start with new elections.
Forget about this latest impasse, we need congress to improve our system of government.
2
Go ahead and shut down the government. All those federal workers currently on border patrol will then go on furlough.
85
@Debbie You probably don't realize this but ICE workers will more than likely keep working through a shutdown.
5
Headline should read: "Trump Attempts to Flip the Shutdown Script". At this point he isn't fooling anyone. His supporters will okay everything he say and does, while the rest of the country rolls their eyes.
7
I’m not planning to go to a national park or monument soon, so I probably won’t notice a government shutdown. I used to be concerned about the furloughed employees, but they receive their pay later.
2
I think this meeting clearly shows Mr. Trump is heading for a nervous breakdown. I suggest watching the meeting with the sound off. Look at his demeanor and that of the people around him including Pence who seems afraid of even moving for fear of getting a reaction from Mr. Trump.
Because of the man's mental make up he will not resign even as he sees (he knows more than we do) how the various investigation are closing in on him and his family. I suggest watching him carefully at his TV appearances. The pressure is building and his disfunctional personality cannot cope.
14
Trump's border wall would be useless and wildly expensive and is only intended by Trump to be a lasting memorial to his wonderful self. It's about time that Congress recognized the true intent of the situation and moved on. Apparently there is no responsible legislator present to suggest that the wall money could be applied to infrastructure or healthcare.
5
His fixation on such a simplistic solution to a complex problem appeals to his MAGA crowd but has few takers outside that block.
He better find a way to expand his base in the next 23 months or he will be the ex-emperor with no clothes (immunity).
I don't think this is the way to do it, but I don't think Pelosi or Schumer have a clue either.
5
In 2013, a bi-partisan group of senators passed comprehensive immigration reform. It included billions for increased security, a revamping of the E-Verify system, better tracking for those who overstayed their visas and a path to citizenship for those who have been living here for years.
The effort was killed by John Boehner and his merry band of tea partiers, who I assume are now proud members of the Trump Nation.
I wonder if people who are screaming for a wall wonder about its actual dynamics; the environmental damage that will be left in its wake, the hundreds of thousands of property owners who will lose their property to eminent domain, in addition to this delusion that you can try to hermetically seal yourself off from the rest of the world and not care about what is happening on the other side of that wall.
Nor does the Trump Nation understand the history of Central America and our direct contributions and responsibilities to their dangerous living conditions, which is why so many come here in the first place. It is a cycle of human misery that we contribute to.
Thus, once again, the American public is being subjected to the usual political games, while not touching upon or dealing with any of the real problems.
Both sides play to their base, while the American public loses.
What else is new?
9
@TEI The ignorance and lack of curiosity of Trump's supporters preclude any understanding of the role the U.S. played in destabilizing Central & South America. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care, if by some miracle, they were force fed the history.
"Senator Mitch McConnell, Republican of Kentucky and the majority leader, would prefer not to go there. He has repeatedly vowed to avoid shutdowns at all costs to try to project a Republican image of government competency."
Thank you for that quote. I love to start my day with a good laugh.
10
He will not shut it down, simply because he promised to "take the mantel" of responsibility for a shut down. He never takes responsibility, only credit. He has made himself vulnerable.
5
“I don’t mind owning that issue” (closing down federal government) says Trump. Right, at this point why anyone would put credibility to anything Trump says is beyond me.
5
“I will take the mantle,” Mr. Trump told the two Democratic leaders in the Oval Office, saying he would proudly close parts of the executive branch if he did not get his way. “I’m not going to blame you for it,” he continued. “The last time you shut it down, it didn’t work. I will take the mantle of shutting down, and I’m going to shut it down for border security.”
The author assumes that Trump will not change his mind and blame democrats when the market tanks in a government shutdown, his own words on videotape notwithstanding. That is the triumph of hope over experience.
Never has there been anyone, not even her intended target of Lillian Hellman, who better fit Mary McCarthy’s scornful appraisal than Trump: “Every word is a lie, including ‘and,’ and ‘the.’”
14
What hapaned to The Art of the Deal he claims he's good at?
10
@Marc Yeah like Mexico was ever going to pay for his "beautiful" wall. Master of None.
2
Bottom line is that if your a Democrat then you think Pelosi and Schumer won by tricking the President into taking responsibility for shutting down the government. If your a Republican, you think the President took Pelosi and Schumer to the woodshed. But the only thing that happened was nothing. The boarder is still wide open and we are still allowing illegal immigrants to live undocumented.
This is a nothing. Nothing happened.
3
No one thinks trump took anyone to the woodshed. Also, what’s wrong with boarders? Some are nice and clean up after themselves.
6
There ARE no rules, in Trumpland. The rules are whatever he says, and THAT changes on the flip of a coin, or the random and coincidental connection of Neurons in his " big, beautiful " Brain.
Sad.
7
One thing is sure. Peloci and Schumer don't take border security seriously. That's why the Dems with there nursing home aged leadership will lose again in 2020.
1
Trump is the one demanding a proposal that border security experts have determined to be ineffective. Just because he’s talking the loudest doesn’t mean his solution is the best (or would even make a positive difference). Unfortunately, to Trump’s simpleton minded base, the image of a big wall projects strength and security, so they buy into his nonsense. Don’t be fooled; the real solutions are out there, it’s just that Trump knew a wall sounded good while he was campaigning, and now he knows he has to do everything he can to try to make it happen or he’ll look bad. That’s what the whole wall thing is all about.
3
@Fred,
Yes!
We Democrats need youthful leaders like mitch mcconnell, president adult-diapers and alabama'a favorite son, roy "I like little girls" moore.
5
My fear is that the longer trump stays in office, the more we will all become immune to outrage over his lies, his profane speech, his obnoxious tweets and his near illiteracy. I truly hope for a forthcoming remedy to the sickness that defines Donald Trump.
5
@Gardengirl No, I think the damage will continue to pile up. No one wants a continuous sense of crisis like Trump has engendered. For all his bluff & bluster he has accomplished very little except putting an on-going economic recovery in jeopardy and blowing out the deficit.
1
This is a very generous headline.
A more accurate one would be, Trump goes down in flames after picking fight with 80 year old woman.
15
To all Trump University graduates and Trump supporters , get out of the cellar grab a shovel and head to the BORDER and build that WALL ,and bring a few dollars for funding.Trump will get four walls in a jail cell.
8
Trump wants someone to blame for not getting his boarder wall - The Dems are the perfect fall guy.
It doesn't matter the wall would be largely ineffective, would cost 45 Billion dollars and be an environmental disaster. He wants an excuse to break his promise to his base. To him that is more important than shutting down the govt.
4
Now that Trump has "owned" any potential shutdown, how long until his base starts chanting "shut her down!"??
5
Right now Democrats need to take full advantage of this political opportunity. Their message should be something like “Trump is threatening to shut down the government because he is too weak to force Mexico to pay for the wall, like he promised he would, and is demanding that taxpayers pay for his wall instead.” If Democrats allow Republicans to make the dispute about liberals not caring about “border security” instead of Trump’s moronic campaign promise, then the Democrats will lose the messaging battle (like they always do).
5
30-foot wall creates a market for 32-foot ladders. I don't want to pay for the fiscally irresponsible nonsense.
12
Looking at the picture with this article.... doesn't take a thousand words. A 72 yr. old toddler having a melt down because someone told him no, Pence looks like someone shot him with a tranquilizer dart, Nancy calmly trying to reason with the toddler, the way too long blue tie. All underneath George Washington's portrait. Good thing he can't see what passes for a President in this century, a man not fit to wipe his boots.
9
Trump would have been wise to heed President Washington's advice to avoid entangling foreign alliances.
1
Why the Democratic leadership would oblige to be players in a Trump media event is beyond me. This public cat fight was just what he wanted to get to get the Cohen, Flynn, Manafort sentencing off of the front page. The Dems are playing smurfball to the Republican hardballers.
1
Isn't there someway we can remove this very spoiled narcissistic toddler from the office of the POTUS and replace him with an intelligent adult who has learned how to interact with other adults. Enough already of Donald Trump, the bawling baby in the White House. He is an embarrassment to the country and a very dangerous clown to have in charge of the American government. He should be removed from office simply because he is not competent to do the job to which the Electoral College appointed him.
5
Not with the Republicans in charge. They will do anything and ignore anything in order to further their agenda. They routinely ignore the will of the people. They are power hungry and will gerrymander and restrict voters rights and anything else to get what they want.
1
We might laugh at the stupidity of the action, but I would not underestimate how effective his messaging will be. He is showing that he will not compromise on his (terrible) idea of the wall, and that he is willing to do anything to make it happen. From a policy perspective it is nonsensical but from a messaging point of view, it might make more sense.
Trump, while dumb as a rock on anything of academic value, really knows how to rile up an angry crowd, so I'm not so sure this will backfire on him with the people he cares about reaching out to.
1
The potential of shutting down our government to achieve a politically promotional gain of the president is nothing more than extortion, plain and simple.
1
Since 2016 the President has said "Mexico will pay for the wall." Has the President lied to the American public?
2
@Marci Dosovitz What did Humpty Dumpty sit on? What did he fall off of?
4
More reality TV theatrics to fire up his adoring base.
3
Classic Trump slight of hand. Today his “fixer” gets sentenced to prison and the lead story in the NYT is about a border wall Trump Shutdown. Well played Donald.
3
Oh, NYT. Call him an iconoclast, if you must; he probably doesn’t know what it means.
But ‘flipping the script?’ Really? I streamed the event. It appeared to me reality-TV ‘host’ DJT had the script flipped on him.
For those of us who have always been drawn to the New York Times for its elegant writing, your colloquial headlines not only grate the ear, they further allow Mr. Trump to drive the zeitgeist.
You have received many comments such as this over the last several years. I urge you to improve your headline composition.
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Remember that?
4
Of course, I support Pres. Trump shutting down the government if he doesn't get the funding he believes is required to secure the borders. He is under oath to secure our borders! The question is, why isn't Schumer and Nancy?
"The government snared more than 3,000 illegal immigrants in just one day last week, the administration’s top border official told Congress on Tuesday, saying the situation qualifies as a full-blown 'crisis'.”*
"Caravan participants paying between $4,000 -- $10,000 to be smuggled into the U.S."**
* Source: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/11/more-3000-illegals-caught-one-day-dhs/
** https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2700946/From-bribing-drug-cartels-immigration-officials-paying-hotels-train-rides-Coyote-smugglers-reveal-costs-involved-smuggling-child-migrants-Central-America-U-S.html
Wake up. Oaths have no meaning to your president!
1
On December 11, 1941, Hitler declared war on our nation, three days after FDR declared war on Japan. Republicans and Democrats rallied behind the war effort to defeat what had become an existential threat to democracy.
Yesterday, we witnessed combat and warfare of another kind. Trump’s threats to shut down the government are one of many actions on his part that modern day defenders of democracy should take very seriously.
2
I suspect that 95% of the human population knows where responsibility for this shutdown lies.
2
Once again, a roomful of empty threats from a perpetual liar with an inability to grow up!
6
It will wonderful for all those families who come to D.C. over the holidays and find all the Smithsonian museums closed.
Many no doubt will change their plans but Trump doesn't have to worry as his hotel there is filled with people who are only in D.C. to curry favor with the Donald.
4
@Steve - Likewise the hotels, restaurants, staff etc. who depend on those tourism dollars.
One can’t expect that what Trump says and does today will have any bearing on what he will say and do tomorrow. He may or may not move forward with a Trump Shutdown and he may or may not blame it on the Democrats. I guess we’ll just have to see.
4
By assuming responsibility of the government shut down ahead of time (The Trump shutdown, according to Pelosi), the fellow won’t be able to blame anyone but himself. Most likely his advisors (if there is any left), will tell him that he publicly lost the battle before it started. Above all, he just relinquished to Dems the power to dictate the terms of the upcoming budget battle, which does not include ‘wall money.'
He confirmed that Tillerson and Kelly’s characterizations of him are correct.
3
Seeing how easily Pelosi and Schumer played Trump it’s clear how Putin, Kim and MBS get him to do their bidding.
To his supporters who won’t be able to get beyond his claim that he’s willing to shut down the government for “border security”. A Wall is the 19th century way to secure the border - the Wall in China was built in 1644. There are better, more effective ways to secure our borders in the 21st century and spending billions on a Wall will waste money that can an should be spent elsewhere.
And what’s with Pence?
3
Nancy and/or Chuck missed their on-camera, face-to-face opportunity to hold Trump's feet to the fire on his campaign promise that "Mexico will pay for the wall."
That needed to be said and responded to in front of the American people and especially his base who bought into it completely and may have voted for him for that reason.
I'm disappointed that they didn't, but very proud of Pelosi for showing her strength and poise throughout the spectacle.
3
@C.C. this is the line being trotted out across the internet, on MSNBC, and virtually everywhere by the anti-Pelosi caucus of what was it? 11 people? Oh, she didn't say "Mexico will pay for it" to his face! She's unfit for speaker!!!!
Get over it. People get older, and that isn't a crime, it isn't grounds for firing people, and it certainly isn't liberal or progressive to discriminate against people who are old enough not to get carded.
The only good thing about the age discrimination that soaks the Millennial generation like a wet sponge is that they will all someday reap what they sow.
1
@ondelette I'm definitely NOT one of the people using this omission to say Pelosi shouldn't be the next Speaker of the House. I'm one of those who thinks she's the most qualified and has the experience and skill to use the position for the greater good of the party and the country. Did you see anything in my statement that indicated I was in any 'anti-Pelosi caucus? ...or that I attributed the omission to age?. I was critical of both Pelosi and Schumer for not bringing it up when they had the chance, but would not have thought of bringing age into the equation. For whatever reason, they both decided it wasn't something they wanted to address in that meeting, which I simply think was a mistake. Your assumptions about my message are way off base.
And here in Cincinnati we can't find the 2.6 billion dollars to replace the obsolete main bridge across the Ohio which annually carries freight equal to 3%of the GDP.
I wish George Washington would climb out of that picture and slap some sense into the lot of them.
5
The problem, of course, s that we really don't do a government shutdown even when we call it that. A true government shutdown would mean no Social Security checks, no military pay, no air traffic controllers so no air flights, no meat, dairy or food inspection, no highway funds, no Center for Disease Control, no border control, no Justice Department or Federal Prisons, no EPA, no FEMA, no Trump Administration (okay, maybe that would be a good thing.) etc. etc. etc.
This leaves the impression for many citizens that a government shutdown really doesn't matter; it doesn't effect their lives. As long as we continue to allow the selective shutdown of certain government functions we will continue to foster the myth that government "doesn't do anything for me."
If Trump want to shut the government down....shut it down....ALL of it.
3
It is impossible to communicate with a person like Trump who hears but does not listen. He wears the fact he does not read and does not find it necessary as a badge of courage. When Trump reads and refers to visable notes he needs to be asked a specific question on camera. Who prepared the cards he is using? Follow that up with a request for further discussion to be conducted with those who gave statistics and talking points since they need to be informed of the facts and are doing him a great disservice by not using accurate research. In other words undress him piece by piece and still be in the position to tell the public your actions were in his best interest and the countries which is true. Speak the language they speak which is blatant deception, only use sophistication and don't focus strictly on Trump always include his Co Conspirators.
3
The big difference is......He was elected President. When the 2 most powerful members of his opposition, will not look the President in the eye, when the minority leader kept looking at the Speaker of the House, smirking, then looking at the ground while muttering, there is a problem. I get that they don't respect him, and have a dislike for him that is either borderline hate, or across the line and full blown hatred, he was still elected President of the United States. A man will look you in the eye, even when disagreeing with you. Same with a woman. Not making snide remarks and smirking to each other like they're in on some personal joke.
The political climate is pretty bad now. I don't see it getting better any time in the near future. And the way the Speaker and Minority Leader were acting, I think they're cementing Trump's base, and possibly sending more people his way.
I'm not a Trump supporter, but pretty much every person I know, including legal immigrants such as my mother and my wife, and I, have a real problem with 11-22 million people here that for the most part, don't pay any income taxes, undercut legal workers as far as jobs go, get free medical care since they have no insurance and just go to the ER, while we Legal American Citizens, are going bankrupt through our corrupt medical insurance scheme. Yet NOTHING is being done. Schumer and Pelosi appear to want to let the newest caravan members in, because they're "scared". Well, so am I.
3
@BorisRoberts I don't remember hearing anything from either Ms. Pelosi or Mr. Shumer that said 'let the caravan members in' en masse. I do remember them saying they were in favor of border security, just not the wall. And as far as respect goes, they referred to this preening ignoramus currently occupying the presidency as Mr. President, not Donnie. He could not have been more dismissive of the congressional representatives, by calling them by their first names, as if they were supplicants not worthy of his notice. He said Mexico would pay for the wall, so why is he hectoring the US citizenry to do so? We can use that money to actually fix infrastructure or do some meaningful work.
4
Boris, you have nothing to fear. You speak of a body of people who may or may not pay taxes, but the potential loss of revenue from those people (and it is potential, not proven) pales in comparison to the loss of revenue from people just like your president. He won’t release his tax returns for good reason. The “wall” is another lie by Trump.
Right now the immigrants and refugees play a critical role in the US economy. The US is not replacing its population and needs an influx of workers. The wall, the anti-immigrant, anti-refugee rhetoric is a cynical and prejudiced ploy to use fear for political gain. It is nothing new and has been used by far left and far right authoritarianism for ever.
2
Let’s not forget that his base is less than 40%. He was elected by a fluke.
2
It cannot be any clearer. The president is motivated to do or promote only that which will play to his base. He could care less if an executive order, piece of legislation, or policy position is sound, fiscally responsible or the right thing to do. If, in his opinion, it doesn’t energize his supporters he could care less.
R. Lambert
2
The majority of Americans want border security, that is just a fact. If the democrats refuse to fund such a relatively small sum for border security, then I submit it is the democrats who will be responsible for any government shutdown.
@jaco The wall is not border security - it is a photo op. The current offerings to the president, which he rejected out of hand, do provide cash for border security, just not the wall. There is a difference between security (increased surveillance/personnel) and an unnecessary and useless wall. Which Mexico was to pay for, if memory serves.
3
@jaco
Trump said Mexico would pay for it so the "small sum" should not be a problem for the big deal guy.
2
The “wall” will not, can not be built for $5 billion. It is logistically a nightmare and even Fox News is saying the cost is about $25 billion and that it won’t secure anything. Even as an idea it is a monument to mankind’s stupidity.
1
Trump's pattern of threatening shutdowns when he doesn't get his way glaringly outlines the elephant in the room: that this person is not a deal-maker or a negotiator, never was, has no concept of how to fashion policy and is unequipped to interact with adults. To him, a shutdown equates with personal strength and power, and any problem that presents for the country doesn't even register.
4
When you say Trump, "plays by his own rules," you make it sound like he is intentional and that he knows what he is doing. He clearly does not.
5
Trump was sent there by his 'constituents' to burn Washington down. He's gladly obliging. Nothing new, his crowds will be thrilled. Then complain about their Social Security checks.
3
First Off, I'd like to point out that we are not having a crisis at the boarder. We have far less imigrants comming in now that we did in the 80s and the country somehow survived and even thrived. The current histeria caused and promoted by great "made for TV moments" is just that. As Ms. Pelosi pointed out we need to look at the facts not emotional hyperbole. Yes our immigration policies are a mess so lets address them intelligently by looking at he specific data. A good starting point would be the data that shows immigrants statistically commit less crimes than native born citizens. So how do we reduce the native born crime levels down to those of our new immigrants? Perhaps we should be focusing on that rather than the singular event violent crimes inevitably commited by some immigrants that also make for great "made for TV moments"
And for all you WALL enthusiast I suggest you look at the history of the Great Wall in China, the Berlin Wall and the Maginot Line in France to study how effective they were.
210
@Tim Cassedy
"A good starting point would be the data that shows immigrants statistically commit less crimes than native born citizens."
Keep in mind that it might be possible to get such statistics which are false. It is not easy to get a reliable comparison of crime rates. One of the problems is that the level of reporting varies from group to group.
A rationale discussion of immigration policy starts with understanding the limitations of our own knowledge.
Census figures are more reliable than statistics on rates of various crimes because of different levels of reporting.
1
@Tim Cassedy
No need to go that far back in the past. Look at the separation wall built in Israel with US funds. All tunneled under by the people who built it.
The US paid for that failed wall. And as Israelis smilingly informed me when I pointed that out, "Yes," they said, "And the US will provide the funds to tear it down as well." The American people are paying for the wall in Israel, and, they will eventually pay for one in Mexico--he will get the armed forces to do it for him. I can only hazard a guess that this will cause the armed forces to become as unpopular as they were in the 1970's. This is what happens when a madman takes office, surrounded by yeshumans.
13
@sarah - you should take a gander at the history and efficacy of "border walls" as suggested by OP. I am guessing your knowledge base to this point primarily consists of Trump, Fox, Breitbart, and The Great Wall (starring Matt Damon). So you think the Wall of Trump will determine great evil from invading our land. But what if the great evil is on this side of the wall and has already overtaken our hearts? What then?
1
$1.3 billion for border security went unused from the 2017 budget. The President just signed a new NAFTA agreement without stipulating anything about The Wall. Why do I think that the President just wants to shut down the government before the New Year? He thinks it’s a back doorway to shutting down The Mueller investigation, at least for a while. Just wait. You’ll see. The Wall is just a metaphor for...like I should know?
5
Trump is fighting for the American People. Pelosi is fighting for politics.
1
Actually Trump is fighting for Donald J. Trump, nothing else matters to a narcissist, who is the living embodiment of grandiosity and bluster.
1
@P McGrath - Trump is poisoning our air and water, alienating our allies, spending our money on his endless vacations and damaging our economy.
Now that Trump has "owned" the shutdown, how long until his base starts cheering for a shutdown?
5
I love Pelosi's comment about Border Security: "They need to cut the grass shorter so they can see them sneaking up"
There in a Nutshell is an example of how the Left solves real problems about National Security.
2
Trump is going to punish us in order to waste more taxpayers money on a boondoggle that most of us don't want? Sounds like a surefire way to drive his approval ratings lower.
5
Trump's border wall antics play well to his base, a segment that has gotten itself into a frenzy about thier status and security as the one and only right sort of Americans. he won't lose their support, and possibly may gain a bit of strength there, by harping on this divisive distraction. as for the rest of us, about 2/3 of voters, what has he got to lose, really?
Trump has learned over the years how to play to the cheap seats and dazzle with glitter and glitz. this is his schtik and, at this point, he's pretty much a one trick pony.
so, he returns to his go-to distraction as the House turns and the jaws of justice slowly close around him.
2
I agree with commenters who say "let him have the Wall vote." Let him sack the treasury for his follies, for god's sake. Make sure the Republicans in congress waste this money. By the time elections roll around you'll have this:
- He never got a cent out of the Mexicans
- By 2020, there's a heap of uncompleted concrete with a $5-B price tag, ready for election photos!
- Dozens of corrupt contracts, tying Republican funders with working on The Wall
- Cost estimate was too low anyway
- Dozens of experts saying It will never work
-Bills, bills, bills, for paying support personnel and military diverted from overseas, etc. etc.
2
Trump is probably betting that he will appear strong and resolute to his supporters by shutting down the government if the wall doesn't get funded.
Trump will probably "win" that bet.
His supporters are tragically, dangerously nihilist. As is Trump.
10
What's with this headline?
"Flipping the script" alludes to a revolutionary, cutting-edge idea.
The more appropriate idiom is how Trump somehow "painted himself into a corner" in the Oval Office by losing control of himself and the negotiation and getting suckered into taking the blame for a costly shutdown.
2
The only pertinent response to the President's posturing? Buy airtime. Play the clip of his promise that Mexico would pay for the wall.
Blanket FOX "news." Saturate social and mainstream media outlets.
Close the clip with a simple statement: "A dishonest leader is an unreliable leader."
3
He just sat on the pin playing "pin the tale on the donkey." He is grossly unpopular and is getting more hated by the day. His delusional live in a bubble and fail to grasp that there are many who threw their vote to him who now despise him. 28% does not win elections.
The reality is that when Trump is no longer President he will be immediately indictable, and will be unable to protect his assets or his family. After four years of lies and crimes the American people will not be forgiving as more and more of his crimes come into full daylight.
The Republicans will have been voted out of both houses and all Trump's judicial appointments will serve with that taint.
There will be retribution and finally, in the end, justice and historical infamy for anything bearing the name "Trump."
4
U S Voters confidence in its leaders.
Just went down the tubes
Trump forever lying to sell his base
Schumer gazing around aimlessly
Pense sleeping or laying low for whatever
Pelosi the only person in the room showing some leadership
3
In all these years of political haggling over barriers, how is it that we in the general public do not have a detailed understanding of the problems associated with the Mexican American border?
Undoubtedly the issue are complicated, but they are certainly not new. When politics assumes center stage, it looks to me like the real issues are subsumed. And it does seem true that in times of trouble, each tends to blame the other side. Am I right?
Can we get straight enough to list the border problems and see a chart of solutions and their logistics? These presentations of the problems don't go very far in helping us form useful opinions.
Every analysis I've ever seen says a border fence will not go very far to solve the problems. But what I've seen has not been very detailed.
1
Here we go again! The media justifying the President's so called "playing by his own rules"under the pretext that "his supporters will love and support it"
11
It’s not justified, but his supporters do approve and believe that his commitment to this issue is the way to go. It’s horrifying. Unfortunately, liberals need the constant reminder that this group does not think like our group. Pick your battles. Trump’s supporters want to see the suffering of innocents as evidence that they are correct about the policies they want, but bring the suffering to them if this is what they want. People don’t want to believe that this could turn into WWII, but this is blood politics. This has already killed a lot of people and it will continue to as long as he is in power.
@Freesoul-- So what if his supporters love it? They are 30-something percent of the population. The majority is getting extremely sick of this nonsense.
1
A "border wall" is a pipedream. It's would be an expensive "fix" that's really not a fix. It's a classic feel good solution.
If federal authorities and politicians were serious about stemming the flow of immigrants into the United States, they would (1) fix a seriously broken immigration system/process, (2) ban welfare payments to non-citizens and (3) enforce e-verify by imposing huge fines on employers who violate the law.
None of our politicians, including especially Trump, have the courage to support those steps, and so all of the chatter about a wall and security is just that Chatter. And Trump's base feels good all over.
It's pretty sickening, if you ask me.
14
Feel good? Walling human beings apart from each other? You got the sickening part right.
Please explain to me why anyone at this point should accept Trump's word on 'taking the mantle' or 'I'm not going to blame you' at face value.
Tomorrow it will be a 'mistatement', 'fake news' or any of a dozen reasons why what he said is no longer true (or worth the paper/video feed used to make it public).
13
I liked the allusion to "A Few Good Men". Trump certainly sees himself standing on a wall.
There's an apt nursery rhyme about that as well.
18
Trump promised the Mexicans would pay for the wall. Nancy should have reminded him.
18
The Democrats should call his bluff. Under no circumstances should they accede to his demands.
16
Throughout the entire spectacle, there’s Mike Pence, putting on his best serious, Mt. Rushmore face. I wonder if Trump told him beforehand not to say a thing. Lapdog that he is, Pence willingly complied.
17
no doubt, Pemce was praying.
trump always acts big, always lying, threatening, making vile cruel, baseless accusations at others, —which by the way is not “breaking norms” bu it is acting like a despicable piece of excrement who seeks failure and chaos— but he is a coward, who never takes responsibility for anything, always will blame others for his failures, and take credit for the achievement of others. Lying, threatening and bullying are not the behavior of a person who is successful in negotiation.
But this behaviour is enthusiastically supported by the trump followers and being able to stand in front of his supporters and be adored is his end goal, and not the common weal of the United States of America.
8
NYT headlines need work. This man does not deserve any credit or benefit of the doubt. Next try you write about this, try "Politics of Division Dominating Shutdown Talks."
One of Trump's claims to fame is his cavalier persona; the NYT knows that trait is admired in the American pop culture canon. The media must stop glorifying this man who - inadvertently or not - espouses fascist ideals on a daily basis.
14
what about, "Is America's Southern Border Trump's Sudatenland?"
“You’re fired!” came the silent but ever present screech from across the room directly into the “camera, lights, action” event as the televised, yet staged, spectacle took place in the Oval Office yesterday. Mr. T. at his best playing The Apprentice role to the hilt. A more appropriate title for this predictable event? Ship Of Fools...
Let’s be honest (which continues to be in short supply) what were Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Schumer thinking when they agreed to this predictable performance? If this is the best we can do...Chicken Little is right...
2
@ RRR
I'm not sure they couldn't disagree. When they went into the Oval Office, it was trump who invited the press in. At that point, they couldn't do anything. As Pelosi later said, discussions like these are best done in private. Trump thought he could outfox them. What happened was that trump ended up looking foolish and stupid.
He thinks he can cow Pelosi. That is not going to work. She is a consummate politician who will not be cowed by him. First he demonized her (during campaigning and rallies), then he praised her (she will make a wonderful Speaker, hoping to rally Dems who said they would not vote for her as Speaker) and then continually called her by her first name (as though she was of a lower strata than he). His usual MO toward women is not going to work on her.
I read somewhere is another article that Pelosi and Schumer should have walked out when trump invited the press in. Both are politicians and also understand the office of the Presidency. Despite who is sitting there, therEis a certain decorum. One does not walk out in a huff, at least not on tv nor does one call him by his first name, but Mr. President. I'm sure It must have been galling for Pelosi to call him that as he kept calling her Nancy. Trump demeans the office, he has no idea nor does he care how the office is supposed to elevate a person.
There was so much info for all of us to see during those 15 min. The body language, lack of eye contact and talking over for example.
5
(Continued)
Now that the Dems control the House, trump's bullying tactics will not be so successful. It will be interesting, and scary, to watch the next 2 years.
As for Pence, he's just biding his time. He said nothing as trump took all the blame for a potential shutdown. Maybe this was actually the Pence show, not The Donald show.
2
Tactics: the Democratic leaders should adopt a different tone (or perhaps say No to appearing on The Donald Show). Don't contest and protest the fool, ask him hard questions, like a prosecuting attorney. Prosecute him, don't take his bait. Not "please don't question my power to represent..." but "how do you figure I don't have a mandate ?... Oh really, where did you get that information?" The Dope will go deeper and deeper into his rant. He'll change the subject, so demand he return to the subject. "But you haven't answered my question, Mr. President." You have to get him to reveal how mentally incompetent he is -- that's not hard! But he's spent his life practicing the art of baiting, changing the subject, and controlling the show. A perfect KellyAnne. You might call him KellyAnne at one point in the debate...
9
Maybe he would have settled for a simple pyramid
8
With his name on it in neon lights.
3
Ha. I like that. Or how about a sphinx? With a combover.
1
@itsmildeyes
With apologies to weasels, I think a weasel would be more fitting.
But individual-1, if you shut the borders who will work at your resorts or at Koch Industries?
Your base?
Ha!
Their English is worse than the undocumented workers you normally hire.
I mean go to a trump-rally and read their posters.
It's embarrassing really.
10
We all know this guy is not a deep thinker but he’s very good at being a bully. Chuck and Nancy still need a bit more backbone. When they go low, we should go lower.
3
No money for Trump's delusional border wall! We need money for real needs in this country, including reviving our aged infrastructure. The Republicans in congress need to rein in their party leader or they will most definitely own any government shut down.
5
why not let Congress just pull a Trump: agree to give him the money for his boondogle wall, then stiff him.
did you listen to that extraordinary drama?
I'm surprised that Pelosi and Schumer weren't totally speechless! POTUS threw out one hyperbolic statement and outright lie after another. migrants (refugees) "flooding across the border" the wall which is partially built (no it's not) "is already successful" in stopping illegal aliens. "we've already caught 10 terrorists (huh?)" and on and on...
clearly POTUS is not the model for what Mitch McConnell calls "competent government."
7
Nancy and Chuck played him like a fiddle.
10
Trump engineered that ridiculous televised "meeting" thinking that his reality TV experience would make for an easy win over Pelosi and Schumer. Two years into this presidency, Trump still thinks the goal is ratings and he still thinks his extemporaneous performances project strength and competence. The man is in total narcissistic denial.
20
I thought Mexico was going to pay for the border wall? Five billion, five billion there. Taxpayers going to get stuck with the bill. I guess I can see how Trump went bankrupt so many times.
11
Immigrants come to America for Jobs. If they cannot legally obtain jobs they will go home or not come at all. The issue is that Americans, especially the wealthy, like undocumented workers. I will confess to hiring many in the past. From house cleaners to gardeners. Unless my memory is fading, I am pretty sure that the President had one working for him at his golf club.
Instead of building a $5 billion wall (about $250 per person for every US citizen), why not impose punitive fines for hiring undocumented workers. The United States could actually make money.
9
As I recall, President Trump boasted that the Mexican government would pay for the wall. That seems to have been completely forgotten in the discussion around a shutdown. I'm surprised Chuck and Nancy haven't been reminding him of his promise.
4
How many bankruptcies?
How many lawsuits?
How many stiffed vendors?
How many republican millions spent in the primaries?
How much longer?
10
Dear, yet to be named, Chief of Staff #3,
You have to explain to Individual-1 that shutting down the government will do nothing to hamper The Mueller Investigation.
6
My thoughts: All a government shutdown over the wall will do is further polarize the country. The wall has become a flash point between Trump and the Dems and it will become very difficult for either side to back down. Be prepared for a long shutdown and political damage to both sides. In the end the Dems are more likely to lose the most because the majority of the American people expect them to be the adults in the room. Trump's supporters think the Dems are the devil incarnate so they don't care what it takes, even destroying the government.
My 2 cents.
2
As said border wall is a piece of infrastructure, I would like to see a ranking of other infrastructure projects, their costs and benefits, and how they would rank relative to $5B for a wall.
4
What was not mentioned in the brawl yester-day were the key merits and demerits of “the wall,” as related to reasonable border security ... never mind the more complicated issue of proper immigration policy. The brawl became an opportunity for Trump to show himself as a “strong,” if not heroic leader ... to himself and, most likely, his followers with 2020 in mind. Once again, he managed to keep the focus on himself, which has proved to be critical for his “success” (if one would call it that). All of this, in my view, is not exactly admirable; but our democratic system allows for it. As far as winners and losers go, we are all in the losing column, I think. The evident absence of good-faith dialogue deriving from the polarities of dialect ought to be disturbing to every citizen. Good faith seems to be what we cannot institute, especially without the restraint of discipline. We’re stuck right now, which shutdown of the government would honestly symbolize.
No doubt Ryan and McConnell had a clever plan to pin a shutdown on the Democrats, but Trump's desire to take ownership buried that rather quickly. The look on Schumer's face says it all.
All together, now: Trump is a great negotiator!
Repeat as necessary.
2
Ms. Pelosi missed a good opportunity. She should have said: "Mr. President, you promised the American people a thousand times that Mexico was paying for the wall. So once we get the check from Mexico, we'll build the wall."
4
A smiling Mr. Schumer seemed more than satisfied with Mr. Trump’s retort. “O.K., fair enough,” he said.
This wishy-washy, non-specific seeming acquiescence is the problem I have with Schumer.
There is nothing "O.K." or "fair" about Trump's methods.
Instead, Schumer should think at least one move ahead, and point out how he knows Trump won't ever take the blame for anything -- he never has before -- and that his words mean next to nothing.
Because we all know Trump will soon lie his way out of saying he would take the mantle, even though he said it on camera.
In fact, he probably won't address it again but will let the media take care of it.
Will EVERYONE dealing with Trump PLEASE -- from here on out --
hold. his. feet. to. the. fire!!
He is powerless without control of his Bizarro narrative.
3
Where is Mueller; where are the authorities preserving the rule of law in our country? It seems that Donald Trump is the only citizen in this country who is not responsible for upholding our laws nor is it possible to punish him for breaking our laws while he's holding the title of president. If anyone breaks the law and threatens him by giving testimony to authorities to implicate him, he has the power of the pardon to keep that person silent. He also has the power to pardon himself and his family. He can destroy any programs/laws of past presidents to stop global warming or to oversee protection for our citizens. He can tell numerous lies to the American public on a daily basis and face no repercussions. He has taken over the minds of about 40 percent of the country. Donald Trump is a future dictator and we're just sitting back like bumps on a log watching his reality show unfold. Nancy and Chuck have a huge challenge ahead of them.
4
Shouldn't Trump be shutting down the Mexican Government for not paying for the Wall? He said they would pay for it! I can't believe he would have lied about expected Mexico's cooperation on the wall, which he proclaimed endlessly during his 2016 campaign.
4
How does Fox News still keep Trump’s base behind him? How can most Republicans still approve of Trump’s presidency? For my mental health, I am not able to watch Fox News to see how they do it.
I was visiting someone in hospital yesterday and I saw something on the Fox News that was on in ther room about how “the media” were influenced by Mueller. It did not say “fake media” or “left wing media”. It just said “media”.. It was like Fox was saying it itself was something other than “media”.
My friend’s husband wore a hat that said “border patrol” on it. Montana is many miles from Mexican border . Studies show the huge financial advantage immigrants are to this state financially.
I guess Fox makes money by stirring people up over issues that don’t even affect them. And this crazy clip of Trump not caring how he gets his way somehow fits into Fox’s model of stirring people up no matter what the consequences to our country and its people.
4
Why is a wall needed when the immigrant flow has reversed, and more of them are returning to their home countries in Latin America then are coming here. Such a wall would be like a bridge to nowhere, doing nothing, not needed. The 4 billion would be better spent on repairing our infrastructure.
3
@Ron Cohen
But that would prove difficult.
Is there any parent in America who didn't watch that clip and see a small child having a tantrum?
20
He’s aiming at reelection. By then, nobody will remember or care about a temporary shut down. But he will have secured funding for the wall, solidifying his base and capturing a few more independents for his decisiveness. Meanwhile, the Democrats will have nominated a progressive who will excite the party but lose the election. All predictable. This is not a win for the Dems. Do not underestimate him.
75
@MWR I agree. All is base hears is that he is standing up for the imperial WALL, it's the only word they hear. Nothing else matters to them, not the cost, not the practicality, not the implications. It's a tribal chant. Mr. Wil E. Coyote! The question is, though, will it be enough to win in 2020.
11
@MWR
Oh, people will remember, especially if they suffer some kind of loss because of it.
If this meeting slips their minds, it will all come back when they see the ads a million times a day showing Trump taking pride in shutting down the government.
35
@MWR, wrong on all counts.
27
First of all the term" government shutdown" is a misnomer. Only non essential services are suspended while the rest of government continues to function as usual. Those government employees that are furloughed will receive their pay when the stalemate is over. Extra days off at Christmas , not a bad deal.
When will Chuck and Nancy, and for that matter the media, realize they are dealing with a "street fighter" who is not constrained by political norms. That is why he was elected and that is why his base stays and supports him. I don't think the Democrats realize that they lost the argument over a gov. shutdown. He made Chuck Schumer look like a defeated leader.
The argument over securing our southern border makes no sense at all, it should be embraced by both parties not argued over. It just leads one to the conclusion that the Democrats are in favor of open borders and illegal entry
or they harbor such hatred for President Trump that they are willing to put our country at risk to satisfy that hatred. There are millions of people in Central America that would stream across our borders if given the chance. We just witnessed a sampling of that with the caravan in recent weeks. This a problem that needs to taken seriously by both parties and not politicized.
3
@Fred
"street fighter"? The video game, maybe. Trump has never exerted enough physical energy to walk 18, much less fight anyone. He lost a fight with an umbrella, and a wing-flapping photo op American Bald Eagle sent him scrambling.
You want serious? How about you roll the tape back to the bipartisan immigration reform that was guaranteed to pass house, senate and president in 2013 and was shut down by John Boehner?
Trump is all show. He started on his muslim ban 700+ days ago and still has not formed the plan for "extreme extreme vetting" that he said would take 90 to 120 days to create. His "greatest deal ever" to solve the problems in the middle east is also 700+ days overdue.
Solid republicans are turning down his CoS offer like it's kryptonite. Want a $180K job? Apply for it. You seem to intimately authoritative on how he works.
@Fred
Donald Trump is a corrupt cowardly dishonorable unpatriotic military draft dodger.
Tweeting and speaking slurs is not street fighting. That is playing clown court jester.
Putin sends his foes to hospitals, mental institutions, prisons, urns and coffins with a smile and smirk.
With the departure of John Kelly who is going to fire people? Ivanka, KellyAnne, Melania or Sarah?
@Blackmamba
This is what I love about Democrats, when they have nothing constructive to add to the debate they raise the volume , resort to slurs and political rhetoric that makes absolutely no sense then change the subject.
It is no wonder that our country is so divided.
How did the cost of "the Wall" get to $5 Billion?
I thought I recall the estimates being around $25 B to complete the job or is "Fearful Leader" only doing a fifth of the job (not out of the question, knowing his history of "Big, beautiful, buildings")?
4
It was clear Trump got outmaneuvered and cornered into taking blame for the shutdown. It was a political loss. The headline makes it sound like it was a strategy play on his part. He was not in control when he testily took the blame; quite the opposite. The savvy political veterans, Pelosi and Schumber, played him. The headline does not match what we all saw.
4
@Myron B. Pitts Schumer.
Aside from the fireworks, one thing is salient about the whole scene: Where in the world is the currently controlling Republican Leadership of McConnell and Ryan?
This budget thing HAS to pass while the Republicans still control BOTH Houses of Congress, why is Republican Leadership shirking their duty?
1
Build a bigger table not a bigger wall. We have enough. Power of love beats love of power.
4
What can one say or do other than cry for our beloved country and world .
Trumps behavior was disgusting , first inviting Ms Pelosi to speak and then cutting her off in seconds.
Thereafter the spectacle went downhill fast.
Trump lied, blustered contradicted himself and bullied.
First he said that there has been vast sections of the wall built and we have never been so safe. Then he demands more in the name of security.
Well as far as I know there are far more illegals here by virtue of air travelers overstaying their visas than desperate people trying to get in via our Southern border.
Trump is doing nothing to deal with this his focus is on the optics on building a wall which in any case he said Mexico will pay for it.
I would rather use the $4 billion Trump wants to build bridges in Ohio and other desperate States.
How much longer can we tolerate Trump leading us into division, desperation and despair.
7
@Carsafrica
excellent point: along with "Trump Shutdown", Nancy and Chuck should have repeated "$4 Billion for Bridges, not Border Wall."
1
If there is one thing that history has shown us, is that walls are the solution for everything, and are so worth the effort and money, i.e. The Great Wall of China, The Berlin Wall, and others... ;)
4
Excuse me, but I thought Mexico was going to pay for Trump's wall. I think Pelosi and Schumer missed a golden opportunity t bring that up yesterday!
4
I thought Mexico was going to pay for the wall. I think that should be mentioned in every article on this subject.
5
Five billion for the Wall? Guess what? Andy B first thought the NYC subway would cost 19 B to fix (May Times) then 40 Billion (Nov. 60 Minutes).
Can we put Trump in charge of the subway renewal project?? (Might have to use immigrants to keep costs down there.)
IMO they are all awful. We've gotten thru gov shutdowns before.)
I find DJTs body language just hilarious.
By nature, he’s a petulant 5-year old demanding mommy buy candy at the checkout counter.
It’s reassuring to see Aunt Nancy and Uncle Chuck skillfully manage the toddler in the room.
13
@George Knowles - exactly.
1
Millions die of gun violence in America, at 96 a day. Environmental protections severely rolled back. International agreements, from the Paris Agreement to the Iran Treaty, trashed. Diplomacy itself uprooted, with our friends insulted and dictators cozied up to. Criminality and disgrace all around him, noose in sight. And Trump wants his petty (Mexico-will-pay) wall, or bust.
6
Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer could easily set up a short press conference about yesterday’s meeting with Trump to cover a few unsaid items. The obvious question from the press would be “why didn’t you remind the President that he promised the American people that Mexico would be paying for the wall?”
They could deftly respond by saying, “we were in the Oval Office and wanted to show respect for the office of the presidency and not call out and embarrass the President”.
Everyone knows he promised the wall would be paid for by Mexico, how many hundreds of times has Trump said it?
They could easily cover this obvious omission yesterday by simply saying they chose to take the high road and not call out Trump on what everyone knows was one of his biggest imaginary
promises.
2
A shutdown of the government does nothing but stoke egos, all the way back Gingrich. Who it hurts are those most vulnerable, the everyday employees who keep our nation running.
7
Sure, by his rules a self-checkmate is a win--a Win-Win! Don't I get crowned? Hey, who's going to tell me otherwise? Certainly not the enemies of the people.
1
More than 50% of the adult US population are in favor of a border wall, and more than 70% are in favor of a strong border to protect the US from illegal immigration, drugs, and terrorist activity. I think that Democrats are playing a loosing hand when it comes to fighting against a strong border.
@G G
Can you cite the source for those statistics? They don't reflect what I've been reading.
Besides, the Democrats aren't "fighting against a strong border." They're fighting against a moronic, hapless, incompetent, know-nothing, you-know-the-rest-of-the-adjectives "president."
(And it's "losing," not "loosing.")
7
@G G
“No conclusion that ‘67 percent of the American people are against’ something or other should be read without the lingering question, 67 percent of which American people?”
“How to Lie with Statistics” by Darrell Huff (W.W. Norton, 1954)
He will shut it down.
The border wall is the only thing his coalition of voters agree on. It has been a powerful message that has eclipsed everything else and everyone else. There is a reason for that.
The Legislature has to address this issue. Globally we add a net 81 Million souls to this planet every year. Current U.S. population is about 328 Million. Global immigration will continue unabated -- Thomas Malthus was right about his "Malthusian Trap."
China took a shot at this with its one child policy. Think about that !
1. Secure a stable population in the United States, that includes border security and dispense with the oxymoron of "sustainable growth."
2. Help other global communities to achieve similar sustainable populations.
First question how many is that? It involves question of food supply, environmental sustainability (including climate change) and everything else required for humans to live.
66
@TOM
Great comment, but no hope with an administration that eschews science and is only iterested in Money, money, money. Oh, I forgot POWER.
25
@TOM It's not just how many people there are, it's about their demands to live unsustainable lifestyles and claim it's their "right" to do so. I have to kind of laugh when people who have had big families start complaining about how crowded the place they live in has become. And they all want a big house and a big car etc. Crazy.
18
@TOM Are you advocating birth control for all those countries. That seems reasonable. Fewer people means fewer coming here.
Wait, Republicans don't like birth control.
Hoover said "a chicken in every pot:". Republicans say a baby in every uterus.
30
The government shutdown shows nothing. The maneuver has been so overplayed by politicians and over-covered by the media that it has lost almost all effect on the public. We’ll get dramatic headlines and tickers in the news, some national parks will be closed for a few weeks at the most, federal employees will get paid leave since they are always reimbursed for the time they are furloughed and life will go on as usual. Rinse and repeat.
31
@Tom There is still substantial economic cost to shutdowns, in lost revenue from federal parks and monuments, lost revenue collection from normal operations and enforcement actions by the IRS or other agencies, delays in various projects, etc.
10
Will retirees still get their social security checks? Will the military still get paid, will Medicaid checks still go out. For those people to miss a benefit check could cause real harm, not just inconvenience.
7
@Tom Aside from lost revenue that Working Mama mentions, a governmemt shutdown affects the military and their families greatly. Active military will not receive pay during the shutdown, and families of those who were killed in action during the shutdown will not receive death gratuity, and remains would not be flown on government planes to a military funeral or dignified transfer of remains.
7
Trump likes walls? Well, Mueller is building walls around him. Soon enough there will be enough the construction will be complete and he will be able to contemplate it 24 hours a day.
18
@BWCA
Indeed. And what America most needs to be protected from will be neutralized.
3
@BWCA, as a taxpayer, I will be happy to pay for construction and maintenance of THAT wall.
***
I met him, several years ago; I was told there was nothing left; no reason, no conscience, no understanding; and even the most rudimentary sense of life or death, of good or evil, right or wrong. I met this 72 year-old child, with this blank, orange, emotionless face, and the blackest eyes... the devil's eyes. I spent eight years trying to reach him, and then another seven trying to keep him locked up because I realized that what was living behind that man-child's eyes was purely and simply... evil.
1
Perhaps a good way to broker some sort of bi partisan compromise that wouldn’t cost the American people a cent more than they are paying now would be for the Dems to agree that every federal tax dollar that the President would foresake by avoiding his golf resorts, could go towards the Great Wall.
It’s not peanuts. In the time that Mr. Mueller’s investigation has been operating, the President has spent more than three times on golf what the entire investigation, even at Trump’s inflated number(s), has cost. You could put up a lot of concertina wire, sorry, “wall”, with that money.
11
All we ever heard from trump was "Mexico will pay for the wall" and his followers chanted, Mexico, Mexico. What ever happened to that campaign promise and where are the cries from his followers that he made a Fake Promise?
17
As usual, New York Times, you give Trump credit for words and actions that should be shown for what they are--a fine blend of reality TV showmanship and flat-out ignorance. Why you keep normalizing and excusing him is beyond me and many of us out here in middle America's middle class who watch you give him props for his destructive behavior with increasing unease and fear. Daily Trump shows just how unfit he is to be president--aside from the criminal charges piling up against his associates and clearer and clear evidence that this ignoramus was installed in office to do just exactly what he's doing--weakening our country with an end goal of destroying it. So, keep on giving him props and excusing his words and actions. That final day is coming when you won't be able to excuse and explain any more.
20
That's the price of Maggie Haberman's access. And it's too high. I agree with you, Meg - time to quit pulling punches and call lies lies.
6
Trump will frame the discussion around the idea that Democrats want open borders. This is an issue dear to his base and one which concerns many other Americans. No one wants gang members and terrorists coming into the country.
Please, Democrats don't step into the trap. This is the time to put out a grownup solution to our immigration problem--preferably one which puts American workers first but which also recognizes that some employers, especially farmers, need seasonal workers and that this should be brought out into the open.
It should also include a mandatory e-verify program coupled with stiff penalties for employers who hire people who are in the country illegally--including apparently one Donald J Trump.
134
@Brooklyncowgirl
The Democrats have NO program that they will put in writing. 1-2-3 ....
What is it?
2
@LMJr “We gave the president two options that would keep the government open,” the two leaders said in a joint statement after the remarkable White House session that offered a sneak peek at 2019’s divided government. “It’s his choice to accept one of those options or shut the government down.”
5
@Brooklyncowgirl I also support E-verify. It is interesting that very Democratic states- California and Illinois- ban E-Verify, and most Republican southern states have mandatory E-Verify. You will have a difficult time convincing me that Democrats support E-Verify.
2
Trump don't need no education
He don't have no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the Oval Office
Trump, leave them kids alone
Hey! Trump! Leave them kids alone!
All in all he's trying to brick the wall.
And, All in all you're not getting another brick in the wall.
Sorry, Pink Floyd.
8
Trump. forget it. Its not about you or the Congress. It is unacceptable to shut down the government the Constitution provides for. It is an unconsitutional, arrogant abusive, Bullyl Act that accomplishes nothing. Obviously, you have to renige and open it back up sometime. So it is nothing more than being a bully. GTH And your wall idea. As solving the immigration problem is meaningless. The wall itself is not the solution. Making it a crime to fail to report to the nearest immigration office after breeching is among the solutions. There is NO EXCUSE FOR HIDING YOURSELF, EVEN IF REQUESTING AMNESTY ONCE YOU ARE HERE LAWFUL OR NOT. And the same goes for those who have been here a long time ..... and never bothered to report their presence.
5
Better solution: Offer a bounty to everyone who snitches on a neighbor whose house is roofed or grass cut by unauthorized residents. Charge the neighbor with a felony. And then seize his house.
We have got to shut down this Fake administration. The Emperor has NO Clothes. And send him to JAIL for stealing the election.
8
A couple of thoughts on the visit to Trump's day care center: Pelosi and Schumer were able to play Trump in which he thought he held the better hand, second, the next time he summons them for another televised tantrum, decline. Let him have his tantrum for all of us to see, again and again.
That Great Wall of Stupidity, the wall Trump continuously claims is needed for "national security" to keep those bad hombres out (keep in mind the claims he makes about those people are falsehoods and outright lies).
And keep in mind, you wall supporters, that Bush 43's fence, that grand fence did little, and as one commenter has stated, will not stop those who enter on visas overstay and drugs find their way by other means.
Leader McConnell made this grand statement: "....project a Republican image of government competency.". Well, if that is what he seeks he needs to quit supporting a president who is not competent and work for the country.
12
"Playing by his own rules..."
How long will these inane, normalizing, blind-to-who-Trump-really-is headlines persist?
14
Q: What doe Trump call the American Taxpayers?
A: Mexico. Because they are going to pay for the wall.
5
We finally have a president with the backbone to stand up to the opposition. The wall is important. In fact, Schumer wanted it but has changed his mind due to pressure from the left. Oh, didn't Obama also clamor for a wall back in 2006? Yes!
Trump offered a DACA deal last year that was very reasonable in return for wall funding. The Dems rejected it. They wanted chain migration and continuation of the visa lottery program, something most Americans reject. Dems are just pandering to the left and don't care to give anything to the president.
19
In 2006 you were clamoring for chocolate milk in the junior-high cafeteria, so I don't understand the point.
15
@MCH I was told Mexico would pay for it
36
DJT wants an end to "chain migration" only after his wife's family arrived through this most "despicable" practice. Increased border security does not necessarily equate to a wall. Do you believe desperate people who have walked a thousand miles will be deterred by a wall? How high would it have to be?
37
Finally a president with the guts to stand up to Democrats who would rather pander to their Hispanic constituents who oppose the wall so that even more illegal immigrants can flood over the border from Mexico. Trump was elected on the promise that he would build the wall. It is the only way to stop the massive drug trafficking and illegal alien invasion that open borders proponents like Schumer and Pelosi permit by denying its funding.
20
He won the unpopular electoral college by promising better health care and to make Mexico pay for a dumb wall. Democrats are trying to close the border, but accept refugees because that's what Christians do. Trump is trying to seize power with the military. If he cared so much about illegal immigration, he'd crack down on employers and his own staff. It's a con, a power grab.
Obama still deported more people and didn't hire any of them like Trump!
And by the way, campaign promise or not, it was a dumb idea two thousand years ago when the Chinese did it, it's not any smarter now. Drones, tech and better law enforcement funding, better Justice department funding, that's what borders need. Not walls and goons.
50
@paul Actually all the research in the world says that a wall is NOT the best way to stop the flow of illegal drugs or unwanted people. Though facts may not stick to a brain which is befuddled by Trumps masterful game of Flim Flam Tariff.Man.
30
@paul--Trump was elected on the promise he would build the wall and that Mexico would pay for it. Why do you hold him to only one part of his promise?
48
I'd rather live with illegal immigrants than with Trump as POTUS.
29
“. . . the dollars at stake in this fight are not huge — basically a difference of under $4 billion.”
I disagree. That $4 billion would feel HUGE if it was distributed among all the K-12 teachers who have to buy school supplies out of their own ridiculously low salaries.
57
Well, at least Mike Pence showed what he truly brings to the table during that meeting.
66
@Brian,
Yeah...photosynthesis.
5
@Brian...I agree, his words were simply brilliant.
5
@Victorious Yankee
Funniest comment ever -- thanks for that!
4
Chuck, Nancy - thank you for not caving.
I am greatly concerned about democrats refusing to bring a gun to a gun fight. I.e., what dems should be doing is obstructing everything coming from the republicans (as they have done each time they are in majority), and not speak of bipartisanship. Republicans do not believe in that sort of stuff.
You go Nancy and Chuck!
19
So, what happened to Trump's claim, "Mexico is going to pay for the wall!"? (Vincente Fox has a succinct Mexican response to that). The only thing I would have done a bit differently was, when Trump boasted he would be PROUD to shut down the government, point blank ask him "would you really? Are you sure?", just to goad him into repeating it even louder.
21
Trump exists in a different reality if he thinks yesterday's televised beat down was good for him. It wasn't. It was yet another embarrassment for the country. Embarrassing the country is something that Trump excels at. Border security, not so much. Trump has failed at every turn when it comes to border security.
Democrats seem to be holding fast to their position and that's great. The wall is a waste of money. Border security can be achieved without it. Trump would be wise to turn border security over to the people he met with yesterday who know what they are doing.
15
The government should divert that $5 billion to building the desperately needed light rail tunnel under the Hudson River that Christie nixed. How much more poison in our air, water, and food will Trump enable as he overturns safeguard regulations while he keeps the U.S. safe from Mexicans!
19
Nothing trump does -- NOTHING -- will cause his cult to question whether they should go on supporting the basketcase president.
The question is: are there enough rational Americans out there for trump to be drummed out of office in 2020 (if not sooner)? The November election results give some hope... but I remain mystified at how a significant fraction of Americans seems to relish his flamboyant awfulness (I forget it was who described him that way recently, but it is a bull's eye!)
25
@RickyDick
Paul Krugman coined the expression in his column of Dec. 10.
"Which is why we should be grateful for Trump. If he weren’t so flamboyantly awful, Democrats might have won the House popular vote by only 4 or 5 points, not 8.6 points."
Bull's eye is good. I would have said triple word score...
3
trupm tried to make this an episode of The Apprentice. He soon found out that he was not in total control and that the "contestants" included himself. He learned that Nancy bites back and that was displayed in real time. Imagine, a co-equal branch of Government
34
@Allen82
Trump is lost without a script. Nancy and Chuck owned him and Pence was —- what? Not sure why Pence was there beyond “President Apprentice” needs a balanced cast for the cameras.
Trouble is he can't fire her. Must be frustrating!
Does the general public even know that despite a partial federal government shut down, the employees get paid anyways once the shut down is over? Once over the employees are paid retroactive.
11
@JB thats true, but the parks and many other places are closed to the public... so all the thousands who have plans to visit the national parks will be unable to. other things are impacted checks, payments, also could affect the airports so its not just about payments, but the disruption in the running of the government.
6
@Margaret Ryan
Agreed! Thank you for pointing this out.
Individual-1 said he'd gladly take responsibility for the government shutdown.
This guarantees one thing; Individual-1 will never take responsibility for the government shutdown.
23
Can you believe anything from this man? He tells the nation CA is responsible for their forest fires because they don't rake their leaves like Finland does. Here he is spewing made up statistics from index cards as part of his plan to bully the legislative branch. It reminds me of that mountain of papers on the table where he sat "divesting" from his businesses. Or those cards reminding him to use appropriate language with the Parkland families. I also recall him saying that while he is not concerned about climate change, clean water and clean air are his priority - and this week his EPA rolls back federal water protections. And we're to believe his cries of "witch hunt"?
22
But of course he will own the shut down. As a matter of fact he would own anything right now that would take the focus away from the Mueller investigation.
Let´s watch, he will revisit the Korea thing, fight and make peace with the Chinese, insult Macron and Theresa May a couple of more times, but more that anything else he will lie about the supposed terrorist and "bad hombres" in that caravan that are coming to "do us harm".
It's all a make believe show, smoke and mirrors for his gullible followers and the media empires that will play along as long as that sells.
16
$22 TRILLION [and growing] in debt and no approval of trump's wall after two years of the Republican controlled House, Senate AND the Executive branch...who is to believe a shutdown is anyone fault than trump.
Remember the days of our $1 Trillion SURPLUS under the democrats?
17
It Reminds me of a six year old friend threatening that if he didn't get to be the pitcher he would just " take his ball and bat and go home". We need to start electing more adults to run the country.
11
@michael -- when I was in first grade the next-door neighbor kid my age threw a tantrum about going to school. It was a cold northern-California morning, and his parents pushed him out the door, tossing his jacket, socks and shoes after him. We could hear it and see it from where the bus stopped.
He bawled and literally pounded on the door -- they'd locked it.
It took him almost no time to get cold feet, literally. The only warm thing coming was the bus.
Pity Trump never learned this lesson.
Figures a brick wall would shut down the government over a wall.
Trying to get reality to Trump is like trying to talk to a brick wall.
15
If I don't get what I want I will make everybody's Christmas miserable. Sadly, we all (Democrats, Republican and Libertarians) want border security, but our President is stuck on a wall that won't do the job. It will be expensive, do next to nothing to stop illegal immigration and nothing at all to stop drug trafficking. Other than making his buddies in the wall building business richer on government contracts, is there any other motivation for this silly wall. Is it that he just wants to live in a gated community.
Is he really going to shout down our government because he can't deliver on his promise to make Mexico pay for the wall?
6
I thought Mike Pences screen test for the sequel to Weekend at Bernies went quite well.
37
@RNS - Absolutely the best comment of the day. Thank you.
4
@RNS,
Brilliant!
Who is the other guy in the pictures? The one sitting next to Trump? He's always in the pictures but never seems to be doing anything, except looking like he's totally lost?
13
There you go! And Trump can save a lot of money by just building a small section of wall and putting a pay window in it to hand out the bucks to those folks that say if he gives $500 they will go away. True, he will need to also buy some signs that tell all of those terrorists, "Come this way to the wall to be prevented from getting into the USA." The whole thing would certainly cost less than 5 billion and Trump could crow and crow about how he built his wall.
3
I'm no supporter of the current White House, but I'll bet 45 has learned a lot about Pelosi and Schumer during this exchange.
That's my humble contribution to all the opinion making here.
1
@Paul Johnson,
He did.
He knows they're not the spineless sycophants the koch-owned republicans are.
He knows Pelosi and Schumer are professionals who love their country and Democracy.
Individual-1 is not used to that.
4
@Victorious Yankee There is no greater danger than underestimating you opponent.
1
@Paul Johnson,
Oh, I never underestimate the koch-owned gop.
I know their un-American activities, and those of their Fox News base,will eventually spell doom for the republic.
2
Perhaps a government shutdown would not be such a bad thing.
If you're rich enough, of course, you don't need government at all. Always good to hear from the 0.01% - have a blessed day!
1
isn't a government shutdown quite similar to
"filing for bankruptcy" in the business world?
how many bankruptcies did djt file for
before he decided to ru[i]n for potus?
8
Trump thinks he’s playing checkers, while Pelosi and Schumer were actually playing 3D Chess.
It looks like baby was put in a corner, after all.
19
Ah, the article's image: Donald J. Trump center stage, unhinged, attempting to distract from the penoply of problems looming on his political horizon.
6
I say this to the millions of Americans who support a physical, beautiful, Trump wall at our southern border. Pay for it yourselves. 40 million Trump loyalists can kick in about one thousand each, then you can pay for the accessories like solar panels and see through plexi with your tax returns. Red welfare states need to step up.
30
Let the 1% pay for it.
7
@EW - let the 1% pay for it
Why should they? They are the ones benefitng from the cheap and exploitable labor. Just as Trump does.
3
@EW - I'd rather the 1% pay for better education.
Donald Trump has threatened to shut down the government before the end of the year if he doesn’t get the funds to build his wall with Mexico. I have already contacted my senator and congressional rep asking them not to support funding for Trump’s wall. Here are the reasons why:
A wall with Mexico will not stop illegal immigration. Two-thirds of those who joined the undocumented population in the U.S. entered with a valid visa and then overstayed their period of admission, according to the Center for Migration Studies. http://cmsny.org
A wall with Mexico will not stop the flow of illegal drugs. According to the US Drug Enforcement Administration, 95% of drugs coming into the US are entering via container ships and other vessels.The rest are smuggled through legal entry points on the border, airports, tunnels and even drones.
Every country has a right to secure its borders. But this wall will not protect us. It’s a monument to Trump’s ego, a campaign promise he is desperate to keep, no matter how useless or costly. As people of conscience, I feel we must speak out.
I hope you’ll join me in contacting our elected representatives and voicing our resistance. Here is a resource to contact your local officials:
https://www.usa.gov/elected-officials
18
Excellent, informed, comment @Civic Samurai. Could not agree more.
Let me add that it is not in the interest of either political party to anger their rich donors by doing anything "effective" about illegal immigration, so this largely empty discussion about illegal immigration will continue ad nauseam.
2
Does no one realize that Don the Con wants this shutdown so he can be King, rule by emergency decrees, impose martial law, and NEVER open it again. This is how he plans to stop Mueller's investigation and any further federal court hearings.
7
Showdown at the OK Corral, or Chuck and Nancy Earp take on Scott Free and his Smocking Gun, while Pence the elf sits silently on a shelf.
9
Let’s see how mean baby tantrum trump can be. Perhaps he’ll ruin everyone’s Christmas vacation by shutting down the government, just when that good will to all is being celebrated.
4
A Christmas government shutdown! Trump is channeling the Grinch....”you’re a mean one, Mr. Grinch.” Meanness is the hallmark of the Trump administration, but his followers will soon realize that their guy is really hurting them and the country.
5
Don't you always try to get the mark to raise the stakes? Schumer played Trump. Was so fun to watch.
6
Two takeaways: (1) Nancy Pelosi was "the adult in the room," but then went low with her "manhood" comment when she left; and (2) you can bet your Chanukah gelt that the only "'mantle'" Trump will assume is to blame Chuck & Nancy for the shutdown if it occurs, but more likely take credit for keeping the government open.
2
@Paul Wortman - The manhood comment was low but it was absolutely true and Trump has it coming.
1
She told the truth.
Listen to his speeches. He can't stop whining.
Read his tweets. He can't stop SHRIEKING.
Cavorting with porn starts and centerfolds, while fathering a child at age 60, certainly seems manly. But that was twelve years ago.
This Big Beautiful White House's flag is permanently at half staff, if you know what I mean and I think you do.
Perhaps Mr. Trump is right in that blackmail, bribery, yelling, and lying are supposed to rule because, well, that's what he does and none of that is news and he was elected to do just that by 63 million qualified voters. If the nation didn't want a blackmailing, corrupt, caustic con then they could have elected Hillary Clinton or McCain or Bush or Bernie Sanders. Americans expect their president to be true to his character. They want to be told that the news is fake, that America is great, and that the check is in the mail. Trump may be 63 million votes right to have a temper-tantrum and engage in lying, bullying, unbridled greed, hate speech, and anti-government rhetoric, however, if that is true, then he is 66 million votes wrong to do so.
2
"Mr. Trump has consistently played by his own rules in Washington, and perhaps this is just one more example of how he can upend the conventions of the capital and win a shutdown showdown on his own terms." Says who? Of course, the "playing-by-his-own-rules" headline had said it all: the NYT is playing along yet again. This (perhaps unwitting) dissemination of Trumpian propagandizing was very difficult to stomach. But the photo was truth itself.
5
@JCam
Thank you - I was hoping someone would point out the ridiculousness of the headline.
1
Congress is responsible for this shutdown!
Schumer has the worst campaign finance violations in history. There are over 200 hush money payments for sexual harassment for Congress paid with our taxpayer monies. Pelosi is afraid of the cameras and transparency.
Democrats are using Dreamers as a political pawn. Shame on them!
4
@Charlie,
No link?
Sorry but we require proof russian.
We're not the empty bobble-headed republicans who still support putin's beard.
We're grown-ups.
2
Trump flips and flops around this ridiculous issue - first, an all encompassing wall, ultimately deemed impossible because of myriad constraints, i.e., geographic barriers, funding issues. And the latest proposal - a token, symbolic structure so that he can crow and placate the dimwits who watch their tax dollars go up in smoke, look the other way at lives shattered by the cruel and unnecessary treatment of families and ignore the fact that the tide of illegal immigrants is really no longer a big issue. His threats of bad people and terrorists flooding the gates is nothing more than his usual "fake news" designed to stoke the fears of an uninformed base who will never change their opinions on the need to build a wall. In the meantime discourse to address the issue of shutting down the government need not be the subject of a Trump reality sideshow - like Pelosi or Schumer commented, have this debate in a closed setting where hopefully some constructive bipartisan resolution would be the end result. And one more thing POTUS, what about tossing those border dollars toward real issues you railed about but have done nothing - infrastructure, real tax reform, job training programs, etc.
96
Schumer and pelosi should have asked only one question.
When will the US receive the funding from Mexico?
12
Democrats who don’t care about our country’s security! Their open borders is going to be their undoing.
2
@Charlie Democrats don't believe in open borders, that was a Ronald Reagan thing. Everybody is happy to have a wall if Mexico pays for it, as our President promised. We just won't pay for it out of tax dollars because it will do next to nothing to stop illegal immigration and nothing at all to stop drug trafficking.
2
@Charlie - Please! This isn't about the country's security. This is about Trump's unhinged, massive ego.
As a previous individual in this comments section pointed out, the wall will not stop illegal immigration. Many illegal immigrants came here on visas which they simply overstay, and not all illegal immigrants are from Mexico, certainly. It will also not stop the flow of illegal drugs, a large percentage of which come in not covertly through the southern border but on container ships, according to the DEA. But of course, dealing in reality and governing with purpose and intelligence is apparently far less appealing to Trump than yelling, screaming, and demonizing other people and countries.
The fruitless insistence on this pointless wall is going to come back to haunt Trump eventually, as well as every person in politics who supports his inane babble at the expense of this nation. The United States should definitely care about its security, but not at the expense of common sense, truth, and good governance, which is exactly what is happening here.
A telling part of the reality show yesterday was President Trump saying "If we don't get what we want, one way or another...I will shut down the government, absolutely."
"If we don't get what we want..."
Is this how adults work out disagreements, let alone members of two CO-EQUAL branches of government? If there's a Constitutional issue here, it's that President Trump seems constitutionally unable to compromise.
12
There's no story here except the one about Democrat unanimity in the Senate and Senate rules. The President needs seven Democrat Senators to vote for the $5 billion part of the Wall plus all the Republican Senators (which probably means he really needs eight Democrat votes because Flake might not be for it). Are there any Democrat Senators who might be or could be pressured somehow into becoming for the Wall? No? Then it's not going to happen. Shutting down the government (always a good idea to a number of us) won't produce those votes. Doing that has nothing to do with the Wall. End of story.
1
Most people support Border Security and Immigration Reform. But not the wall. It is a gigantic waste of resources. A 15th century solution to a 21st century problem.
21
Trump must be so tired of winning that he needs to take down the economy to slow the drip of collusion revelations.
5
Pelosi and Schumer were totally outmatched in this back and forth with Trump. It was refreshing to see our government leaders roll up their sleeves and discuss their differences. I don’t mean this in a partisan way, but I almost feel sorry for the young democrats out there – your leaders are antiquated, atrophied and sniveling bureaucrats from a bygone age.
20
@CG Si I guess you would chalk this up as another 'win' for the president. I think I have a different definition of winning.
45
@CG. Odd. I saw two professional Washington insiders school an amateur. The way #45 cannot deal with a woman with power was fun to watch. If you live in a world where your name is on the door and every single person works for you and/or is in fear of you....vs Washington, where the gloves come off easily...he was found wanting, bigly....
54
@CG
Interesting perspective. Which episode of The Apprentice were you watching? I watched "Trump Shutdown". A new Brand for trump.
I observed trump lacking the control he enjoys on The Apprentice. He bacame a contestant rather than the master. He fumbled around with 3X5 cards with "fake" numbers which were challenged. Nancy bit him hard and slapped him around, legislatively. And then, instead of "firing" him, she "Branded" him: Trump Shutdown. Imagine, a co-equal branch of our Government.
By the way, how much is the Mexican Government chipping in for The Wall?
45
All participants in this "discussion" have lost track of what is important - doing the right thing for the American people. Instead we got a display of childish behavior that is worthy of miscreant 4 year old children kicking sand at each other on the playground.
What does closing the government accomplish for the American people? Massive inconvenience, delays in receiving payments that feed families and pay heating bills, waste more taxpayer dollars, and more reason to feel disgusted by politicians. Lose, lose, lose.
What does building a wall accomplish? Certainly not secure borders. But it does waste more taxpayer money that could be better spent in thousands of ways. Lose, lose, lose.
Time for Congress to demonstrate that they can be adults that work for the people of this country and give us a reason for hope in the New Year.
I am not optimistic.
57
@EAZiemba
"Time for Congress to demonstrate that they can be adults that work for the people of this country "
Congress?
Pelosi and Schumer stated very clearly that they HAD worked out a bipartisan agreement that would pass both Houses of Congress, that included border security, but Trump said he would shut down the Government anyway because he and his (minority of Americans) supporters want their symbolic wall.
13
@Lynn
Time to stop parsing out blame and work together. Yes, dealing with the Child in Chief is a challenge. Both parties need to ration out some sense on a regular and consistent basis, not just on a one off basis. Bipartisan should be the rule not the exception. Congress is not there yet.
@EAZiemba
This is not true in the slightest. Pelosi and (especially) Schumer actually offered compromise. They made it clear they do *not* want or intend a shutdown. All the GOP has to do is come just a few inches toward the center for once!
You smear them by an association that is absolutely physical in this sense. Why not blame Trump?
9
Aren’t there people in Trump’s base who ever ask themselves, “Gee, is it really true that either we get a big wall or else we get wide open borders? Mightn’t there be other options?”
16
Looking forward to watching Trumpty Dumpty fall off his big, beautiful, Mexico-financed border wall.
27
Schumer and the dems recently forced a shutdown to benefit illegal aliens.
Trump will force a shutdown if that is what it takes to keep illegal aliens out to the benefit of the American people.
The people understand that - even if the NYT pretends otherwise.
7
@Openedeyesee
If you think a wall is going to keep illegal immigrants out, your knowledge of travel is about 10 centuries behind the rest of us.
Just so you're aware, over half of the illegal immigrants in the US come to the US legally on Visas and overstay their Visa. Pretty sure a wall isn't going to stop them.
7
@Openedeyesee--No. "The people" do not want a shutdown and neither does the Congress. Trump and the Republicans were in the majority for two years and couldn't get funding for the wall. That's because Trump's own party won't back him on it and don't want it. The people want the president and the Congress to work together and come up with sensible immigration policy. Shutting down the government benefits no one and Trump's wall doesn't either. Temper tantrums are not the way to make policy. Republicans in Congress know that they will pay for Trump's shutdown.
4
@John Marshall
Of course a wall is only part of the solution - but it is s necessary and essential part-
"I’m not going to blame you for it."
As a starting point, believing anything Trump says is a bad place to start. False is the default position for almost anything Trump says. I don't see why anyone would believe him on this statement. We can't fact check something which hasn't happened yet. However, I can imagine the Trump rallies already.
Notice the one small piece of nuance in Trump's aggression. He doesn't say he's willing to shut down the government over a boarder wall. He says he's shutting down government over boarder security. A small but subtle difference. In Trump speak, this translates to "Democrats shut down our government because they refuse to protect our boarders for illegal immigrants." That's how Trump's stump speech will play out anyway.
Schumer shouldn't act so smug. The play might work. There's an entire national propaganda network eager and willing to propagate the reversal as truth. Trump is hoping the national attention span is short enough to forget this meeting just like so many other embarrassments. Under any other president, we'd still be talking about leaked Israeli intelligence sources in the oval office. What happened to that story?
I'll give Pelosi some credit though. She finally branded Trump on an issue rather than the other way around. I guess the trick is to label him before he has time to reach his Twitter account. Trump's shutdown. I like that.
19
A little perspective please, Mr. Hulse: The combined cost of the National Endowment for the Arts, the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, agencies for which Trump effectively seeks to eliminate, is approximately 900 Million dollars, that's Million with an "M", or less than 1/5th of the cost of the next 5 Billion installment Trump is demanding for the construction of his wall which, so far as I am aware, has no final cost estimate at all. To use another metric, this 5Billion is equivalent to the entire cost of the Medicaid program for a year, a program which serves 70 million US citizens (or about 20% of the population) who are too poor to pay for health care. Trump has proposed cutting that program by 25% in order to pay for his tax cuts to the rich. What a guy!
Someone else commented about the portrait of Washington "looking over Trump's shoulder." Looks to me like Washington is looking for the exit, it's Jefferson who appears to be looking down at Trump with a look of disgust on his face.
40
@TimG
Federal spending on Medicaid in 2015 was about $350 billion, almost one-tenth of the $3.7 trillion federal budget. That money is supplemented by the states, so total spending on Medicaid services was $545 billion that year. Those numbers have been increasing as health costs rise and the number of people who are eligible for the program expands.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/06/27/534436521/from-birth-to-death-medicaid-affects-the-lives-of-millions
Get your facts straight.
5
@TimG I confess the 5 billion Medicaid figure seemed low to me. I should have researched it further, but just to provide the source for my comment, here is an analysis of the proposed 2019 budget by Georgetown University: https://ccf.georgetown.edu/2018/02/12/administrations-budget-proposal-includes-1-4-trillion-in-medicaid-cuts/ It states: "[1] Medicaid 2019-2028 baseline spending is $5.450 billion; proposed Medicaid spending is $4.011 billion. OMB, An American Budget, FY 2019, Table S-4."
If I don't get what I want I will make everybodies Christmas miserable. Sadly, we all (Democrats, Republican and Libertarians) want border security, but our President is stuck on a wall that won't do the job. It will be expensive, do next to nothing to stop illegal immigration and nothing at all to stop drug trafficking. Other than making his buddies in the wall building business richer on government contracts, is there any other motivation for this silly wall. Is it that he just wants to live in a gated community.
9
Trump must have been referring to shutting down the Mexican government since he assured us time and again that they would pay for the wall.
11
This is not the Trump of the past 3 years. The bellicosity Trump displayed during this meeting was the reaction of a distracted and tormented felon dreading the approaching squall of the criminal justice system. So much of Trumps brain is consumed by the horror that is his future, that very little is left for functioning in the present. Thus, the primal lizard brain that resides in us all is now in charge.
6
The only wall in Trump’s future will be the perimeter barrier encasing the Supermax prison in Colorado.
And he’ll get to look at it from the exercise yard.
8
This is just the latest fiasco in the series of fiascos that define the government of this great country at the moment...but I did enjoy Chuck Schumer being yelled at, even if it was by Trump.
3
Embarrassingly unfit for office, trump is dishonest and uninformed. There is no learning curve for one who does not listen, read, or contemplate. If this were simply another bad episode of the Apprentice, one would turn the channel. Instead, millions are affected by the unfitness and criminality of the Baby King. The day he is out of office I will celebrate. The day he is imprisoned I will cheer. Good riddance to this hollow man.
16
If anyone really thinks that Trump is going to take the blame for a government shut down then I can get you a good deal on a bridge in Brooklyn. First, it's obvious that this show was for his base and at no time was it designed for a meeting of the minds to work towards any reasonable compromise. As far as Trump taking responsibility for a shutdown he would only say that he was forced into it by the Democrats that really don't care about protecting citizens from the horde of illegal aliens. It's a scam among many of Trump's scams. Schumer and Pelosi need to call him out on his lies in front of the cameras if need be because Trump's time is coming to face the reality of what a pathetic, unlawful, disgrace his presidency really is.
8
Trump goaded? Odd take. And another instance of a photograph telling the story. Look at the aggressively motioning hands, the wide open mouth.
Here's a man who "discusses" by bullying--that is by constantly interrupting to state and restate the same few dozen words increasingly loudly. Here's a man who "discusses" by repeating the same untruths over and over and over again--as if repetition makes lies true.
Nope, Trump wasn't goaded. He wrote his own tune, sang his own dissonant song.
And Pelosi demonstrated the art of the leadership.
16
Does Trump own any shutdown... sure... but let's not forget that the GOP are the ones who have put the country in this position, and any blame should fall equally on them. It's time to expose the GOP for what it is, a cabal that means to keep the 1% fat and happy, and to keep the rest of us in our place. Until the media starts covering the GOP motives things will not get better.
7
First of all, has anyone seen the plans for this wall? I doubt it. This is just another item in Trumps rich fantasy life — and a 5Billion dollar boondoggle. And, does no one remember that according to his own election era promises, he should be calling Mexican president López Obrador to get the money? A previous NYT comment from "gdurt" from L.A. put it eloquently: Trump is "a deranged, infant gangster."
4
All the was missing from the presidential take down was a reminder that the Ted Cruz government shutdown cost $24 billion.
11
The "stable genius" and "excellent negotiator" was schooled yesterday in politics by "Nancy and Chuck". He will be schooled again and again since they won't put up with his reality show baloney. January can't come fast enough. Once again, Trump was playing to his base, but "Nancy and Chuck" didn't take the bait. Another comment I must make is that Trump is so disrespectful using their first names whereas he was referred to as Mr. President. And what was Pence doing in the background? Is he a robot?
38
By all reports, the spending plan has already been agreed upon by both parties. Vote on it and put it on Individual-1's desk. Then he will well and truly own it.
2
Perhaps the Democrats are finally starting to realize what collective power is, and how to use it.
On the other hand, I won’t be surprised if they roll over at the 11th hour and fund the wall, grossly underestimating its iconic nature as a symbol of white supremacy to Trump and his base, and how symbols like these can be more powerful than any attempt at a reasoned debate.
3
If you watched the TV spectacle, it is frightening how easily Mr. Trump is provoked. How emotionally he reacts. And how unhinged he gets. This is the man who has the nuclear codes? This is the man responsible for running the economy? This is the man supposed to be a role model for our children?
21
By saying that he would take the heat for a government shutdown, Trump was appealing strictly to his base, showing them that he's willing to play the martyr. Unfortunately, as always, Trump's fragile ego supersedes the status of his own party and the welfare of government employees who will suffer from a shutdown. Republican legislators should be up in arms but the question remains: Will there be a tipping point in which they start to abandon this foundering presidency?
6
Carl Hulse suggests that "the 2020 campaign is already on the president's mind." That is like saying "swimming is already on the mind of a newborn fish." America has never suffered a more self-serving President with less regard for the consequences his actions may have on others.
6
The real danger of having an incompetent president in office , as is aptly demonstrated by this exchange, is that through his uncontrolled anger and behavior, he could harm millions of human beings. On a reality TV show, no one gets hurt, except maybe the advertising agency running the cash flow. But as President of the United States, pushing the wrong button in anger evaporates cities in Asia for example, and millions of innocent people there. And not performing the functions of the job by keeping the government running here harms millions of poor and innocent Americans.
5
@Robert M. Koretsky: my thoughts exactly.
what if, one day, the issue is not about erecting a wall
but abt. pushing a certain button or making a phone call?
he might push/call out of sheer spite, not anger or rage.
what will "i'm willing to take the mantle!" mean then?
does he take pride in his statement now?
and do his disciples really take/want that bit of bait, too?
1
There is no way in the world Trump would ever take responsibility for anything that makes him look negative.
9
Mike Pence did the best Clarence Thomas imitation I've ever seen.
He'll definitely be on the guest list at my next cocktail party.
14
The whole point of that meeting was for Trump to demonstrate to the nation that he can do whatever he wants and not fear the consequences. It's not a government shutdown that he's preparing us for--it's a government takeover. If our traitor-in-chief wants to stay out of jail, he's going to have to declare himself "President for Life." Future British historians (all the American ones will be in prison) will refer to the shutdown a week from Friday as merely the prelude to "Putin's Christmas Coup."
1
Why is no one reminding the petulant baby in charge that he PROMISED that Mexico, not the American taxpayer, would pay for his wall? Confront him with his promises and show that he is breaking yet another. He would rather close down the government than admit that his bluff has been called. The mind of a five year old at work.
16
Trump was owned and the NYT did not catch it. Everyone in that room, including Pence and the reporters orchestrated a situation to make it clear we have an bullying seven year old as president. His strategy is to say and do anything in order not to lose and in this case he told the American people he would throw us under the bus to get what he wants - he is going to have a tantrum.
The question now is whether the Republicans will stand by as he does that - we will see.
But, good job Pence, Pelosi, Schumer and the press.
5
It was interesting to see two leaders in the house and senate sit up to trump in a public dispute. Pence whose mouth is frequently sewn shut in the presence of trump played his part as a stuffed breathing manikin. Good for Pelosi and Schumer to show some spine, something missing in our legislators for the past two years.
65
Ah but remember we live in Bizarro World. Trump said that he would take responsibility for shutting down the government. Give him two days before it's all the Democrats' fault again.
27
I am sick of catering to his supporters. That is not the majority of Americans, and yet we all have to tip toe around this illegitimate president. The border wall was his campaign promise, but he also promised that Mexico would pay for it. The Pentagon has so much money they can’t keep track of it, let them pay for it. There is no overall plan or structure that is apparent in Trump’s rambling ranting. He just wants random things and expects everyone else to bow down. He is not a king or dictator. Stop putting his supporters first and please start putting the country as a whole first. Congress needs to address the overall issue of immigration instead of letting this charade continue.
51
The biggest threat to the United States are not the caravans trying to cross the border, the biggest threat is Trump himself.
His child like tactics of bullying people and treating them like they are lower then him put this country at a great security risk.
We need a president that will make America grownup again.
33
@BTO,
The single biggest threat to the future security of The United states is ignorance.
Good old fashioned Philistine pig ignorance.
And Individual-1 leads the way in the ignorance department.
Remember, their President of The United States thought Frederick Douglas was still alive.
Here are my thoughts:
The biggest loser Trump, not only did he look like the town's street corner drunk/bully, he now "owns" a shut down if it comes as he stated. The democrats should say it over and over again if it comes.
When Trump started his rant, with the cameras on, Pelosi and Schumer should have politely walked out and tell Trump the American people want a fair negotiated settlement to the issues at hand and not a knee jerk, narrow minded reaction to the problem spoken by an adolescent neurotic.
Also, Pelosi should not afterwards get involved with Trump's manhood just like she should not get involved with female identity politics. Voters don't like identity politics or adolescent name calling.
Schumer should apologize to Ind. and No Dak. and say he did not mean to diss them. They are great states, just that the republicans only flipped a few democrat senate seats whereas the democrat flipped 40 republican house seats.
2
Trump badly needs a distraction from his legal troubles, and so - voila! He pivots back to immigration, his big beautiful wall, and a government shutdown. And so many lies- that the wall is already being built. It isn't. That there are votes in the House to pass this. There aren't. And what about some of those other claims? He bragged about apprehending "10 terrorists" at the border. Anyone fact checking that?
17
The MOST hysterical thing about that whole “ Trump in the Oval Office “ show was watching Vice President Pence. If you just look at him throughout the entire episode you will at least get the most hysterical laugh for yourself . Any comic relief to take the emphasis off this buffoon in the White House is welcome.
9
What if he shuts down the Justice Department, fires Mr. Mueller, and blames it on the Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Schumer?
1
Democrats lost the chance to publicly remind everyone that Mexico is paying for the wall, as promised by trump.
5
For Trump, the shutdown threat is a win-win proposition. His base will be inspired by his tough stance on the wall and his demeaning remarks directed at Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer. He will not be reminded of his promise that Mexico will pay for the wall. McConnell can compromise with Schumer on continued funding to avoid a shutdown that includes more appropriations for the wall. Enough Republicans will vote to support the compromise that Trump can just ignore the bill and let it become law without his signature. Democrats will back the compromise. Then he can tweet about senators, collectively and individually for weeks.
That will happen unless a majority of Democrats threaten to vote against the compromise and force a majority of the Republicans to back the compromise.
22
@OldBoatMan Sorry, I can't visualize Trump allowing a bill to become law without his Sharpie signature, certainly not something so dear to the hearts of his humble minority.
2
@OldBoatMan
Trump's base has long since shown that the only facts it believes are "alternative" ones which bear no relationship to reality. He could say the wall would transport people back to their native countries and his supporters would believe him.
2
@OldBoatMan
Trump still has himself convinced that he has the support of "the American people". Apparently the facts, meaning, and evidence from the November election went right over his head and the heads of his devoted groupies, just like everything else.
Trump is only about appealing to his base. The good news is that they alone cannot get him re-elected in 2020.
His continued irrationality and impulsiveness in full public view will continue to erode any remaining support he has with independents and suburban Republican women. The disarray in the WH and its staff is also evident to all, and nobody is available or trying to restrain him. (E.g., Mike Pence looked like he was daydreaming yesterday and did not even try to jump in and restrain/reset Trump when he was declaring he would own a shutdown.)
Every day like yesterday, where Trump clearly demonstrates this kind of un-tethered behavior for everyone to see, is a good day for Democrats.
7
Pence didn’t dare open his mouth. Do you think he wanted to risk Trump reaching over and backhanding him for impudence?
2
@Tom Heintjes Pence is supposed to have some "politician's instincts." He was, after all, once the governor of Indiana. And a six-term congressional representative. And he is the only one in the WH that Trump cannot fire. He should at least seem like he cares and exercise his vocal chords when Trump is going down a path like this.
But your point is well taken. He is a political chameleon and coward.
1
Further blurring the lines between reality and fiction, Mr. Huise feels compelled to compare the Oval Office scene yesterday to the film “A Few Good Men”.
1
It seems to me "Chuck & Nancy" went in hoping to poke the bear. They succeeded but I hope, going forward, they remember this is an emotionally deficient, child-like persona and they risk who knows what for all of us if they overdo it.
4
"We will build a wall and Mexico will pay for it", promise kept Mr. President?
Now he tweets the U.S. military will build the wall. Will the very White House show up in Bankruptcy Court to stiff the military like the construction workers who built his hotels and casinos? Cheating taxpayers, again?
14
A partial government shutdown is just what we need to show the country how the GOP cannot govern ... they still control both the House and the Senate.
8
RE: " if Democrats do not accede to his request for $5 billion to build a wall"
Remember what was heard at every Trump Rally:
"Who's Going to Pay for the Wall?!"
"Mexico!"
"Who?"
"MEXICO!!!"
Nancy should have simply said "Mr. President, I don't understand why you are coming to us. Mexico is going to pay the for the wall. Promises made. Promises kept."
36
@Marie
Mexico is currently detaining thousands of illegal immigrants who want to move to the U.S. they seem ready to continue this policy.
That is “Paying For The Wall” in something more valuable than mere dollars!
If we go by two years of actual Trump experience, it seems most likely that this is one of those Trump threats that will come to nothing.
6
I beg to differ with the writer.
Trump didn't "embrace " a shutdown.
He " threatened " to shut the government down if he didn't get his way.
I'm surprised he didn't insist on holding his breath.
The smart parents that Chuck and Nancy are, a little firm talk and an extra pacifier in the pocket are just the things to have handy when your toddler acts up in front the adults.
18
@Susan
Your problem is neither is “a smart parent”!
We don’t need a wall, we need comprehensive immigration reform which means policy, process and diplomacy
More resources to process and send them back
More resources to monitor the border (technology/people)
More resources and aid to sending countries
More diplomacy to stop them before they get here- agreements/aid to countries in between
More policy, enforced policy - e-verify with consequences for employers.
The wall is a distraction that resolved nothing. The current policy is just a TV show that grinds the process to a halt and gives the impression we are being invaded. There is no leadership here.
242
@Deirdre
The “how” is complex, but you’re on the right track. If we first establish that being here illegally is a bad thing with consequences (for the person and any employer involved), then provide a rational answer to the need for seasonal workers, and beef up the other thing you listed, I believe the problem would gradually be solved. Why rational people on both sides of the aisle can’t come together on this strikes me as pure power politics. A shame.
13
A very thoughtful comment, but perhaps useless in this environment. Trump's mission is to just to stay number one in the media. Still I'm glad to hear sanity on the planet.
19
Republicans don’t want to solve a problem that benefits donors - drives donations and enrages the base which drives them to the polls. Why solve a problem that wins both sides?
17
Start the shutdown with furloughs for White House staff, Secret Service, motorcade drivers, and Air Force One. Let’s take the taxpayer-funded pomp and glamour out of the imperial presidency.
272
@Heather Hadlock you mean no more golfing trips to Mara lago?
18
“Essentially goaded”? That simply is not correct. No one put the words in Trump’s mouth. Why do certain members of the White House press corps feel the need to portray Donald as some kind of innocent victim of Washington?
86
If shutting down the government will speed up the Shutting Down of #45; I say shut down the government.
When will our elected "representatives" stop showboating and actually stand up to the Impostor in the White House?
26
A picture in contrast.
Nancy Pelosi is giving Trump a civics lesson and George Washington is looking over Trump's left shoulder in disbelief.
George Washington was one of our greatest presidents. Donald Trump is one of the worst presidents.
One man would never tell a lie. The other man's entire life is a lie.
One man is on Mount Rushmore. One man is headed to the Hall of Shame.
One man was fearless in battle. One man had bone spurs.
One could fill this entire page with more contrasts.
One man is known as the Father of our Country. Sadly, the other man cries, stomps his feet and acts like a petulant baby.
180
@Howard Levine
What an accurate picture you've painted!
I wish I could upvote this to the top of the comments section...
7
Not to mention Pence propped in his chair like a subject in a Victorian post-mortem photograph.
10
Trump is not the father of his country, but considering his countless extra-marital affairs, he certainly tried.
4
"Make me an offer I can't refuse", said Chuck and Nancy simultaneously.
1
What do you mean by "Trump playing by his own rules"? There are no rules; it's total chaos now that Kelly is about to take a permanent vacation (being fired!)...and no credible replacement for an otherwise 'juicy job' (if it weren't for a sadist bully that enjoys firing people, via twitter, that dare give their honest opinion in a liar's nest).
10
This was Trump demonstrating how he has ruined all his businesses through irrational decision-making that inevitably ends in betting the farm.
Pelosi and Schumer tried to present him with facts, but he rejected the facts. Pence realized that he had everything to lose to signing onto Trump's self-immolation.
It was the 2d demonstration of irrational self-destruction in the last 48 hours, the first being Trump's scuttling his deal with Nick Ayers to replace Kelly.
15
The picture tells the whole story. Mike Pence is all poker face as he's watching something he's never seen before, again. Nancy is all process and trying to figure out how to make herself relevant, and Chuck Schumer(my landsman) has a smile on his face because he's not sure what he's chewing on, it tastes like strawberry but it could be something off the bottom of his shoe. Chuck has seen this movie before. It's classic Trump. He's gone public with his threat of a shutdown for a difference of 0.3% of the federal budget. In defense Chuck has experts, none of whom are Israeli, who say a wall is ineffective.
11
Trump is confident he can get an approval for another tax cut for the wealthy and corporations. If this is true, he should put his money where his mouth is: instead of a tax cut, take that money (unsure where he gets it) and use it to pay for his wall.
3
For Trump this is a script, because he treats everything as if it's nothing but a reality show. He's all in on treating American to the "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" treatment because he doesn't care what he destroys as long as he's the center of attention.
Trump was an utter failure in business. He was a thief and a con-man, his entire reputation merely a media created image. Trump only played a successful businessman on a reality television show with scripts that guaranteed success and made failure impossible.
It should be abundantly clear by now that Trump isn't actually a president, he's just playing a part, but since there aren't any actual scripts now, he simply makes up anything, no matter how destructive, as he goes along. A sane man can pretend to be insane, but an insane man can't pretend to be sane, which is why Trump is burning the country to ground around us, and having a great time of it.
This nightmare never stops, in part, because Trump keeps feeding never-ending news cycles with his outrageous conduct, filling media coffers with advertising dollars. Trump loves bankruptcy, it's his raison d'être, so it there's little doubt he'll gleefully bankrupt America and create a full-scale depression as long as he can claim it as a victory and personally insulate himself from the consequences of his actions by sheltering all the wealth he has stolen with his good friends who run Eastern-European and Middle Eastern totalitarian regimes.
63
If I were Ms. Pelosi, my response would have been "Give up any idea of a wall and we won't impeach you, Mr. President"
5
Please shut it down. When we’re well into triple digits trillions of debt including social security and unfounded healthcare liabilities, not funding the federal government doesn’t sound like the worst idea.
4
I imagine Democratic strategists have saved this on their computers and are thanking Trump for some stellar advertising video going into the 2020 elections.
9
I don't understand the logic. I always thought the point of a shutdown, or even the threat thereof, was effective because party A could blame party B for the shutdown.
But if party A initiates the shutdown, loudly, openly, and not only takes the blame, but cheerfully takes credit for it, what would be the motivation of party B to come back to the table? How long does party A think they can keep the government shutdown? What will people think of party A after they have to cave in, eventually?
Either me or the President of the United States isn't thinking straight. In days passed I would've have dismissed this idea out of hand, but today...
5
@Martin
Trump has no logic, just his fantasy of reality in his mind.
In time he will deny he said this and claim the videos are faked.
Welcome to a trip through the looking glass.
“Winning the wall money” via US congressional funding was never a central tenant of his campaign - making Mexico pay for the wall was.
6
Tenet, not tenant. Although with Trump as a supposed real estate billionaire, the Freudian slip is understandable. So, Mexico isn't paying for the wall we don't need: another campaign promise unkept.
11
"Mr. Trump was essentially goaded..." I saw the exchange a dozen times, and saw no goading in the typical sense, but rather the response of a tyro to the game of politics, and a bully and a braggart. Trump continues to think of himself as CEO of America and of Congress as his operating units. He continues to refer to votes in Congress with "I can get votes..." or "I need ten Democrats to vote..." Pelosi took an important step towards schooling him on the Constitution, but he has a long way to go.
37
Has the little donny brought forth a detailed plan explaining the logistics of building this wall? With all the varying terrain, and variables to consider that also includes projected costings ect? I haven't heard him refer to any reports by independent agencies. Nor specialists who have provided any information about it's legitimacy to handle their issue. The way he's hanging into this ludicrous "wall" idea makes me wonder if the Trumps have their own financial interests invested in the building of this magical, cure all problems wall. If only it was to keep the crooked Trump family out... Then it may have some support
8
Chuck and Nancy blew it. They had the chance to ask Trump on national TV, why are the Mexicans not paying for the wall and instead coming to them for the money? Trump would have had no answer and would have looked dumber than normal.
84
@Phil M
Trump is now claiming that his re-negotiated, re-named (formerly known as NAFTA) deal will result in Mexico paying for the wall.
Yes. That's more Bullroar from Trump.
Perhaps Rep. Pelosi and Sen. Schumer held back on throwing up to him his claim that Mexico will pay for the wall because they wanted to avoid Trump pivoting to NAFTA, which always has been controversial among Dems.
Just a guess.
2
@Phil M
Trump’s retort would be ‘the wall just got ten feet higher’. Chuck and Nancy would be the dumb ones to engage a six year old spoiled brat on his own terms. Pelosi’s ‘being the mom’ is quite a good assessment. Actually what she really needs to be is ‘The Supernanny’.
4
Oh Mr McConnell, you're long past any semblance of a "Republican image of government competency." Just freeze into catatonia like Potted Plant Pence and wait it out - it will all be over in 2020.
168
@common sense advocate pence as potted plant! i can see the memes now.....palms growing out of the top of his empty head.
6
@AMA - Susan from Paris thought of the potted plant description - I just made it a name! Now, if only I could come up with a name that would remind people that Pence and his family polluted his home state of Indiana with their filthy gas stations and left the state to pick up the 20 million dollar bill. Polluter Pence doesn't work because the whole Trump administration is.polluting our air, land and water!
https://www-chicagotribune-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-pence-family-gas-stations-indiana-20180713-story,amp.html?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHCAFYAYABAQ%3D%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.chicagotribune.com%2Fbusiness%2Fct-pence-family-gas-stations-indiana-20180713-story.html
2
If it shuts down, don't issue back pay. We just spent half a billion on HW Bush's funeral. Most of that came from a government holiday.
8
@Rob Durante, we are a country of excesses. And misguided spending. Like the trillions we wasted on Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Wastage is ingrained in us. Because we live in a land of plentiful, parents don't teach their children to turn off the faucet while brushing teeth, or have shorter showers or not waste food, not to mention the amount of food thrown away in school lunches and restaurants. Here in the US we just do not know what it means to be frugal, careful, mindful, because our parents never taught us nothing, most of all Trump's parents who were epic failures and made their 3 year old child wealthy with a $300,000 annual allowance. If you think about it, since that age 3 till now in his 70s, at that rate, Trump has enough wealth to pay for his own wall.
24
Speak for yourself. We taught our child to live frugally and we also live a modest life. This president is fiscally a disaster. He advocates spending when there is no plan or accountability. And Republicans, who screamed the loudest when a Democrat was in office, now stand silently, or applaud the madman in the White House. It’s a ridiculous circus. And all the while Republicans in Congress are larding the courts with unqualified, unrecommended judges so they can control the courts. Why are they silent on this mess?
3
@Petey Tonei, my parents were young during the depression and we were far from being anywhere near wealthy. We were taught thrift, mending and to pay our bills on time, valuable lessons. My children learned them as well. But I agree, too many people spend too much on stuff they don't need.
If DT is so worried about his border security, how would a government shutdown affect it? Not favorably, I’m thinking.
Why didn’t they ask when the check from Mexico is coming?
48
Trump may have said, on record, that he "will take the mantle" and "not going to blame you (the DEMS, Chuck & Nancy) for it," but he will deny having ever said that. Having denied statement he's publicly made many times, will it be a surprise if he does it once again?
31
Using the military as a political prop is a no go. I can tell you that shutting down the government seriously stresses out military families and affects their pay. Claiming that they will gladly building the wall is a bold claim to make when you threaten to shut down the government and literally affect their livelihood.
21
@Paul I agree with your concern for the military personnel and their families. But on another level its a no no because it's against the law, a clear violation of the Constitution. Here Trump threatens to violate the Constitution, and there are no consequences! That's how far our democracy has fallen, and how decimated the rule rule of law has become. Nancy has to give him a civics lesson right on TV- disgraceful!
2
Michael Cohen, President Trump’s onetime lawyer, is to be sentenced today at 11 a.m. EST.
Now you know why Trump pulled this stunt yesterday.
56
The president proudly told America that he "will own" a government shutdown. But anyone who's been paying any attention these past two years knows that whatever Donald Trump says at one moment is likely to be cancelled out at the very next.
Stability is not this president's virtue. He thinks that by holding hard to a 2015 campaign promise to shut down the border to "Mexican rapists and drug dealers" that that acid currency is going to pay electoral dividends for him in 2020. He cannot force Democrats to accede to his demands that they fund a border wall. It would be a ruinous and costly undertaking; it would balloon the already-exploding federal deficit by untold trillions on top of the $1.5-trillion tax cut that he handed out to the one percent under the ruse of "job creation," a shell game everyone saw through.
Perhaps someone will try to pry the lid off this incompetent president's insistence that shutting down the government--at precisely the worst time of the year--Christmas shopping, anyone?--will aggravate even a large portion of his uncompromising impregnable 40% "base." When people can't get to work because trains aren't running and bridges aren't working and toll roads are closed because employees have been furloughed...
The president foolishly pinned the target on his back, an almost impossible feat to achieve. But if he's willing to own it, he'd better be prepared for a 2020 that will reveal to him that he's emptied his barrel of support down to the dregs.
25
You can take consolation in the fact that if he's said he's going to do something, it won't get done.
9
@Red Sox, '04, '07, '13, ‘18,
you could be right but after everything that's happened so far he still holds enough support that he was able to steal four senate seats from Democrats. Yes, that's right, a 71 year old, overweight man, stumped 5 or 6 key states for over two months and pulled off a rescue that shouldn't have happened.
All he needs to push him over the top is a Democratic contender named Hillary, Bernie, Joe, Kamala, or Cory. He's already got his wished for opponent named Nancy to run against until the Democratic convention.
Donald embarrasses himself for the umpteenth time by not understanding how American government works.
The GOP still controls the House who could vote on a clean bill to fund Trump's wall. The GOP-led Senate can agree with that exact House bill which sends it to Trump to sign. The kicker here is, Trump is out of time because all of Congress are on holiday.
Well that and, Mexico was going to pay for Trump's useless wall!
American politicians, regardless of political affiliation, see no need for American taxpayers to pay for Trump's idiotic 15th century wall that won't work in the 21st century. It would cause them to lose political capital for the 2020 election. The GOP knows this specifically which is why in two years, they've not funded Trump's campaign promise.
Americans can soon chant - "Fund your own wall Trump!"
Unless perhaps, Trump's not a billionaire and instead he's leveraged in debt to Russians and Saudis? America will find the answer to that question once the Democratic-led House subpoenas Donald for his tax returns.
94
Government shuts down, Trump goes to one of his crazy rallies, blames Nancy, Chuck and the Democrats. Crowd starts yelling, "Lock Them Up", Trump cheers.
Country suffers, government employees out of work, stock market plummets.
Just another week in MAGA land.
152
does not really want a wall, does not want to build anything just likes to have the fights. he is not happy if he isn't fighting and he obviously from what we've seen, is never happy.
hoping more and more of us are embracing the lessons this era is offering.
13
Does anyone believe Trump knows he stuck his foot in his mouth? Pence sitting by like he was on a bad date was priceless. If Trump's base doesn't know that they are booked on the Titanic maybe its time to let them go.
89
What we are witnessing is more of the DJT dog and pony show, similar to the sending of troops to the border for the "invasion". Shutting down the government over this wall will cost the republicans, most intelligent Americans understand that a wall is useless, it can be crossed over or tunneled under. There are much more effective electronic ways to secure the border.
17
Didn’t President Trump promise that Mexico would pick up the tab to build a wall?
247
@Australasian Trump has stated that Mexicans would pay in assessed tariffs and taxes - not that their government would pay the bills. He has no plan at all, of course.
10
Trump has bluffed over building the wall about a dozen times. You don’t think he could be bluffing again, do you?
8
I wish the D's would confront DT with his own words and tell him in clear terms, no. The American people will not be extorted by you to pay for your wall. You said Mexico would pay for it. Mexico. And say it on the news everyday. And play his campaign footage of what he said. Every day.
459
@Ken Hanig brilliant idea. They should be ready with their phones to replay clips of him saying Mexico would pay for it...and play at every opportunity.
10
Trump has never taken responsibility for anything in his whole life.
He is full of double and triple talk.
If there is a shutdown, he will blame it on the Democrats.
He cannot get the votes he needs from the divided Republicans in the House, yet he he blames gridlock on the Democrats in the Senate.
Arguing with him is senseless. It’s like arguing with a toddler.
72
Correct.
Whatever made anyone swallow the idea that he would actually take the blame for a shutdown, despite his own promise?
Trump never really takes the blame for anything bad. He will just fob it off onto democrats.
4
For Trump it is never not showtime, a fact the Democrats need never to forget to stand a chance of saving this country.
10
The leaders of both parties are clueless. Rid the House, Senate and Oval Office of all these aging rascals during the next few election cycles.
Sad but true. The world as we knew it is coming to an end. With or without Trump
Remember that one of the agencies that would be shut down is the Justice Department. This is not only about the wall but President Trump would be happy to shut down a certain investigation that is funded through the DOJ.
10
As a result of Trump calling for a shutdown, I think Vegas is taking bets on whether Trump's IQ is "over/under" his age of 72. I put my money on "under".
42
During the midterms Pelosi & Schumer told Dems running for office to NOT talk about the migrant caravan. I felt this would come back to haunt them. Well it has. They're going to have to publicly to take a stand on a host of immigration issues, some of which the left wing of the party will oppose. What we saw yesterday is the kind of political theater Trump excels at & why he came off better in this exchange. I don't think Trump cares about the wall. He saw an opportunity to humiliate the Democratic opposition so he did. Trump knows exactly what he's doing. His crassness isn't surprising, isn't accidental, it's intentional, it's carefully calculated & by his standards it's working quite well. It plays perfectly to his base & they love it, so he'll keep doing it as much as possible. From a strategic & tactical standpoint, it's brilliant. It's always open season on liberals & progressives. There's absolutely no downside to attacking, shaming, & irritating them with relentless abandon. The mainstream press can rage & shout about his behavior until there's ice on the equator. It won't change the mind of one person who voted for him. The more you complain the more he will rub it in your face. Isn't that obvious. What progressives & their co-dependents will never be able to see is that Trump supporters revel in the non-stop drama, are galvanized when he punches back. Far from being embarrassed by his antics, they're thrilled by it & in their heart of hearts can't get enough of it.
16
@Bill Brown
"He saw an opportunity to humiliate the Democratic opposition so he did."
??????
I don't think we were watching the same meeting.
6
@Bill Brown
Congratulations, you can see what the NYT and most here won’t see and can’t understand.
Pelosi and Shummer stand for nothing except power for them!
1
@Richard
So, it's a case of the blind leading the blind?
Please stay in the Green party ( or wherever).
Democrats are quite happy with our 'power-hungry' Congressional leaders.
While it is true that I haven't laughed this much in, well, maybe my entire adult life, thanks to nighttime comedy focused on Trump, I do often stop laughing and the worry builds.
As a 72 year old low income senior living in HUD financed low income senior housing, I see my own vulnerability and that of my neighbors and wonder if those at the very top making the laws regulating our lives and rents really understand that when the Congressional elephants, and donkeys, fight, we mice, economically speaking, fear.
A government shutdown would inconvenience some, but if those checks stop flowing for a few months, there will be much suffering.
When Putin took over Russia, it was the pensioners and military veterans who begged on street corners, as the government stopped providing for the poor and the powerless and instead embraced the rich. For the poor living under bridges, the government has been shut down already.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
276
@Hugh Massengill
Yes.
Like when sanctions are imposed on brutal regimes, it's the people who suffer far more than those at the top.
4
Read My Lips: Mexico will pay for The Wall.
220
Trump seems to be confused about who needs to be accommodated here... Why would Democrats play along with this lame attempt at hardball?
They don't want the wall, even the GOP doesn't want it.
If Trump wants his precious wall, what concessions is he willing to make to garner requisite support? Political support doesn't come for free.
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Maybe Trump should start a GoFundMe so his supporters can pay for the wall they so desperately want!
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@Ilonka Van Der Putten That was tried in Arizona a few years ago, didn't work. The then, Governor Brewer stopped talking about it. Arizona and its current Governor does not want the wall, just better security.
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While it is Congress' prerogative to tax and spend, I believe that Democrats are playing a losing hand here. Border security or a border wall is a symbolic issue which Mr Trump will use to beat up Democrats every time he speaks. No one will believe that Democrats are tough on illegal immigration; they can cry themselves hoarse. Talking about minutae and details about electronic surveillance will not get them anywhere. It will always be Chuck and Nancy's fault.
Mr. Schumer's smug smile gave it away, he was ok with shutting down the govt as long as he could get political mileage out of it. He doesn't care about us either.
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@A Common Man
Can't help but agree. Sometimes I feel it's all just a big power game to these well-known politicians. Doesn't matter what the issue is as long as they can, as you say, get some political mileage out of it. It's really sad. I see it played out where I work, to a much lesser degree. Sad statement on our world.
1
Completely, utterly out of touch with the reality of life in the US. The only thing more detached from the impact of this President's policies and tactics on his voters are his voters themselves. At what point do they realize they are being taken for the biggest ride? Maybe a prolonged government shutdown will do it. Maybe he'll need to destroy the economy first. Who knows.
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Shutdown means obstruction. Playing brinksmanship games that are worthy of an eight-year-old brat on a playground does not equate to good governance. The impasse that we so frequently arrive at called a "shutdown" is a childish, shallow way of playing a parliamentary motion of no confidence that does not fit in our constitutional model of government. Problematic is that both political parties are worn-out shambolic entities that are for sale to the highest lobbyist bidder and that don't care about the well being of the constituents or the government, as long as they got theirs.
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Please remember all we are experiencing in government (or lack thereof) can easily be blamed on the GOP for not following the constitution, for placing party and power before country, for Gerrymandering, for voter suppression, for boldly lying in a way no one has lied before.
The DNC takes some blame too for not governing for their constituents, but please do not hound me with false equivalencies.
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@James Siegel DNC is responsible for governing their constituents? On what planet is that true?
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@sleeve, the Democrats voted against the tax cut which gave most to millionaires and corporations and is not paid for and is exploding the deficit beyond anything before it. The Republicans will try to balance that with cuts to programs that help me and millions of Americans just getting by, if that. The Democrats will protect that and most anything that protects the little guys. That's us, unless you are wealthy yourself. Education, climate change and much much more that the Republicans denounce. Most of all, Trump is a liar and clearly incompetent.
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When the government shut down in 2013, Wall Street lost 5% in value; after the beating the market took last week over Trump tariffs, China and Trump’s legal problems, another shutdown is the last thing it needs. Trump says that he will embrace the mantle, but when Nancy Pelosi initially voiced the words “Trump shutdown,” both his response (“What?”) and his body language told a different story. Time and again, Schumer maintained that while Democrats support border security, their opposition to the wall was based on the expert assessment of those who have studied the matter that physical walls do not work. Once again, Trump was unconvinced, because he makes decisions on whim rather than evidence.
Trump may succeed with his base. As reader comments to articles in the Times have displayed, immigration is an emotional issue for a significant fraction of Americans. But as the negative consequences of tariffs, shutdowns, environmental degradation, foreign policy blunders, and Trump’s legal woes affect the personal finances, health and well-being of Americans, opposition will grow. Trump knows that it only gets harder with each passing day of his administration, and these temper tantrums are the visceral responses of an increasingly worried man.
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@Ockham9 Trump doesn't need fact-based evidence, he has his cherry picked stats on his little kid note cards to back up the need for a wall!!
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Every time Trump talks about $5 billion to construct his wall, his opponents need to remind him, and the American people, that the true estimates range from $25 to $70 billion, plus annual maintenance. Just think of what that amount of money could do for America’s schools. And if we are serious about ending undocumented migrants, why isn’t ICE hauling away hiring managers and CEO’s at the same time they put handcuffs on the workers they are increasingly arresting at American workplaces?
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@J. His opponents need to remind him that Mexico is supposed to pay for the wall according to Trump's campaign promise.
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@J.,
Agreed.
Heck Individual-1 has scores of undocumented workers working at his own resorts yet somehow he isn't in cuffs.
Only the undocumented people who work are punished here in America.
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Just imagine using some of those funds to make life better and more attractive in the central American countries where most of the refugees come from.
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The abstraction of a "shutdown," and the myth that it has little impact ignores the fact that an estimated 400,000 people will work over the holidays without pay and 350,000 other people would be furloughed. The ripple effect will impact hundreds of thousands more families just in time for Xmas. Meanwhile the Trump-family-Scrooge can think of this as negotiating, standing tough, and winning.
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@Why Austerity And do not forget that Trump has also pledged to freeze federal worker pay in 2019, while giving a raise to the military. I guess he doesn't realize that a significant number of veterans also work for the federal govnt.
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Workers cannot be compelled to work without pay? Federal Workers should sue. Go to the Courts and demand an injunction to mandate a continuing resolution pending the passage of the budget. There is NO Evidence that forgoing funding a Wall constitutes a National Security matter. The Wall is a Trump fetish without value. Trump did not promise a Wall funded by taxpayers. Trump promised a Wall paid for by Mexico. Trump’s supporters that demand a Wall are definitively stupid as they expected Mexico to pay for a Wall. Now do they want to pay for a Wall? No.
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@Why Austerity - Tariff Man is gumming up the markets, and a shut down, especially during the holiday spending surge is going to make it worse, its ripple effect as you say will hit millions.
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If the shut down includes Trump’s twitter account, then I am for permanent government shut down.
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@Dro Here is your answer:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-12/trump-s-ex-lawyer-michael-cohen-sentenced-to-3-years
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It's becoming clearer and clearer how Trump managed to bankrupt several casinos.
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@Blue in Green It takes a special type of business person to bankrupt money making casinos
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As Trump finally takes on a non-compliant Congress, he's going to finally find out the hard way that the House always wins.
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@Blue in Green
Bankrupting several casinos is not all he bankrupted or left others holding the bag.
From a comment posted by another.
1. Bought the Trump Plaza Hotel for $400 million. Repossessed by the bank
2. Bought his yacht for $29 million. Repossessed by the bank.
3. Built 4 casinos at a cost of $3 billion. Filed for bankruptcy and went out of business. Stiffed Contractors and employees. Bankrupted employees retirement savings plan.
4. Started Trump Airlines, never made a profit. Planes and helicopter repossessed by Citibank
5. Trump mortgage, Trump Vodka, and Trump Steaks. All went out of business.
6. Opened Trump University issued worthless degrees, got students to take on unpayable debt, sued under RICO.
7, RICO suit charging Trump organization with Racketeering.
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In order to save the country, Trump feels he has to destroy it with a shutdown. The wall is a waste of money. It fails to provide cost effective security, and it diverts precious spending from developing ideas that could help. If Trump wants to shift the agenda to immigration and safty, he should at least do it with careful thought and facts.
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@Canadoug
Careful thought and facts? I think you have the wrong trump in mind; those are way outside this trump's skill set, which is pretty much limited to bragging and insulting.
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@Canadoug Careful thoughts & facts ....HA.... that's a good one!
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I don't like trump and didn't vote for him, but a lengthy government shutdown is, I think, exactly what is needed now. Bring it on. There is little point in pretending we have a functioning government or a functioning political system. A lengthy shutdown will bring us closer to the end game and force everyone to reckon with their desires for help from the government. If only...
Of course, there will be no meaningful shutdown. The military will go on killing people and blowing stuff up. SS and medicare benefits will keep flowing to the elderly and doctors. Vital services will continue... and that's the problem. A shutdown imposes no real costs on the wider economy or on the vast majority of Americans (neither does it give relief to the victims of the US military). It's all just theater. Curtain up!
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@neildsmith, You are incorrect. Government shutdowns cost real money and lots of it.
See, e.g., https://www.marketplace.org/2017/05/02/economy/high-cost-government-shutdown
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@Neildsmith
The reason you can’t shut down the government is to keep the lunatics, the radical nihilists, in check. Trump is one of them, and he knows that they come in every stripe, even people who don’t like him or voted for him. He doesn’t need their approval, only their complicity. They are out there just waiting to embrace chaos whoever delivers it.