I dreamed we had a vote of no confidence in Trump. Oh wait we did. it was just ignored.
1
If after two and a half years Britain can’t find a way to safely extricate itself from the European Union, it's not a member of the EU, it's their hostage.
1
Is Brexit a perfect example of putting the cart before the horse? They voted to do something spectacularly difficult with no proposals for how it would be accomplished.
4
I'd love to read an explainer on just how the Prime Minister is selected. Apparently, the majority party can now, just choose a replacement. When does all of Parliament get to vote on the nominee? Does the opposition party get any say in this process? When does it go back to the people for full popular election?
@Kwhitney
We don't elect a Prime Minister. We each vote for our local representative (MP) and the party that has a majority in Parliament then forms the Government. Their party leader becomes Prime Minister. It frequently happens that Prime Ministers don't serve a full term, either through illness or old age or, as nearly happened in this case, because their party decides they have become a liability. The majority party then selects a replacement and the government carries on until the next election, at which point we discover whether the electorate approves of their choice - or, at least doesn't disapprove enough to kick them out.
4
"The disarray in London has undermined the British pound, which has fallen sharply against the dollar and the euro in recent weeks."
Please explain how the graph below the quoted statement supports the quoted statement. It appears that when 1 British pound starts at about $1.250 and increases to about $1.263 within about 12 hours, the pound has not fallen sharply.
Why use such a short time frame for your graph?
2
The adage, dating back to the symbol used by the Roman army of a sheaf of arrows (or rods) can not be easily broken while each single arrow (rod) is easily broken, is an apt analogy for the UK`s position. Being a full member of the EU is beneficial to the UK in a world where super powers exist. Eg. A united EU can help little UK avoid going to war against Iraq.
I disagree with the Brexiteers, but I do like May's calm, deliberate style. Hey, you British citizens, you don't like your Chief Executive?
Want to work out a straight up swap? We'll throw in an entire family and a gaggle of hangers-on. C'mon, it's a great deal! And if you want a self-proclaimed "Deal maker," and someone with a proven track record of "working with" the Russians...
2
I was living in London when the Brexit referendum passed, and all the men went into hiding after David Cameron stepped down. Theresa May was one of several women who stood up to take the PM role at that time, a role that clearly was not set up for success in any way.
Now all the whining men like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the two who speak the loudest with the least to say, are back out in force attacking Theresa May. While she’s bungled things along the way, I still give her tremendous credit for standing up to take this difficult role at a time when no man would dare.
2
Ms May seems to have tried so hard to work a deal with polarized figures.
That she has not put behind her these extreme crazies suggests that she too is a polarized figure....determined to carry on, whatever, the British tradition.
We wish she had left these ranting guys in the pit of their own making. Is she demonstrating that English thing of claiming heroism from defeat:
Tennyson--Charge of the light brigade:
"Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred."
This is exactly what is wrong with the male world. Men obeying dumb orders from stupid men.
Now, May, doing the same dumb British thing.
1
I would like to see a total Brexit. Britain has always prided itself on its separateness as an island surrounded by the moat of the English Channel and the seas. In the words of Shakespeare, “This England, this blessed isle.” The Brits have this unshakeable ideal which is incompatible with accepting the decisions of EEU bureaucrats in Brussels regarding the minutiae of their daily lives and business enterprise. I think a far more natural fit would be an economic Union with the USA. It would, of course, counter the current trend of celebrating multiculturalism which is a cover for creeping globalism and in its place reestablish the hegemony and triumph of the “English speaking people’s” of the world as in the ringing words of Churchill in his response to the gathering threat of the Nazi regime. Thank you, Will, and thank you, Winston, for expressing so poetically the hopes and aspirations of the free world.
When stepping away from an economic agreement that doesn’t benefit you economically turns into a suffocating bureaucratic hassle, it may be a sign that a system has reached the limits of globalization’s economic benefits. It’s exhausting to read the blow by blow - I can only imagine the pain this is causing the Britons.
It's funny for me, a descendant of people colonized by Britain, to see this bossy country, that used to run us around and oversee everything we did and even forced us speak their language, now portray itself as a victim of outside interference.
You Brits are lucky that the EU does not model itself on the Empire or you'd have the same amount of choice here you used to give Ireland.
Interesting how many folks want to conjure up some pop-up kiosk democratic do-over with a 2nd referendum – and conflate momentary majority with long-term legitimacy...
In one sense, May did her job as “best” could be done...
Prior to the referendum, Brits had only one choice at hand – remain
Once the vote was tallied, they immediately had a 2nd choice – hard Brexit...Calling it a no-deal Brexit a bit of a misnomer, since there are explicit terms and conditions in place for such a move
What May did her utmost to produce was a 3rd choice – vs a deceptively simple criterion...Something “better” than either of those choices
But here’s the crux: “Better” not something that was concisely parameterized – any more than “leave” had been concisely defined...
At all times, it was some ambiguous hybrid of how the people and the Parliament would view things in the end...
Ironically, they’re sort of meandering into something folks this side of the pond are claiming will re-invigorate democracy – ranked voting...
Whether a formal 2nd referendum or not – the “best” way to frame things might be to let both Parliament and the people rank the 3 choices...
But – here’s the rub...
There’s more than one – but only a few – ways to cull things in ranked voting...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting
Put Parliament to the test on this one – give them 24 hours to pick the approach...
If they can’t even settle on that – Western Democracy has bigger problems than the Irish border...
This is what being part and parcel of an international European Union commune like the EU has reduced Britain to. Once a great nation and leaders in their field have been reduced to Germany doing all their thinking for them, not unlike how third world nations just sit on their lazy backsides and wait for handouts from developed nations. The British government is used to Germany putting all the strings and organising their nation and this is the result. Britain has lost the ability to lead their own once sovereign nation through apathy and reliance on the EU.
1
The new slogan for the UK: "Leave means the biggest mess you'll ever see."
I have many ex UK friends here in Australia. All were horrified at the decision to leave the common market, none are surprised at how badly it's turning out.
1
Interesting.May will go , Merkel is muted. Macron is on his way to an American style lame duck, the Poles and the Hungarians have no use for Brussels, and our Italian friends as usual, are blowing in the wind. We of course are in for toal dysfunction until the Democrats can either Impeach Trump or stall any issues until 2020.
I went on the Brexit diet...
It drops pounds faster than anything.
4
Let’s hope Theresa May will survive this no-confidence vote. Her stamina is admirable. In recent months she travelled from one European capital to another in a relentless effort to negotiate, enduring setbacks and humiliation. Despite several attempts to backstab her, she vowed to stay on as prime minister and get on with the job of delivering a good Brexit.
Others would have quit long ago. David Cameron resigned days after the June 2016 referendum, leaving his successor to sort out the mess. Nigel Farage left his vehicle, the eurosceptic party, UKIP, after the Brexit vote, fearing the blame he would have to bear. The self-serving Boris Johnson quit in June, waiting for his chance to take over.
5
@J. von Hettlingen
She won. Good news for reasonable Britons.
3
In every divorce proceeding I know of, the court sends the couple to counseling in an attempt to work it out. The idea is to make sure the permanency of divorce is what the people really want. It's easy to file papers in the heat of the moment, and when the dust settles questions arise.
Maybe it's time for the parties to find a way to put this whole thing on pause. Change some laws or bend some rules or something. Make sure it's what they really want...
I feel sorry for Theresa May. She's being pilloried for not accomplishing the impossible. The brexiteers fulminate furiously, but offer no coherent alternative to her plan.
I believe that Brexit, the election of Trump, the Yellow Jacket riots in France, are all (emotional) reactions to the same underlying thing: secular economic forces working against unskilled or low skilled labor. These forces have been at work for a long time, but perhaps now things have reached an acute stage.
1
Brexit was doomed from the start because of the simple reality of the Irish Border. You simply cannot wish away the fact that the border exists. If you leave without the backstop you have to reimpose a hard border. If you reimpose a hard border you violate the Good Friday accords. This has always been a problem. Imagine if a hard Brexit occurs and no border is put in place immigrants would simple drive across the border into the UK. Maybe Boris wants a wall?
The UK, which isn't really much of a "United" Kingdom anyway since Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU while tiny minorities in Wales and England voted to leave, should just break up, giving Northern Ireland back to the Irish (citizens of Northern Ireland already qualify for Irish passports), Scotland to the Scots, leaving England a small country with the comforts of past grandeur.
6
@Bob
England constitutes 84% of the UK's population (England and Wales is 89%) and England is also 86% of the Gross Value Added (similar to GDP) of the UK. 86% of the GVA of the UK is more than the combined GVA of several EU countries (about 10) put together.
Also your statement, "...tiny minorities in Wales and England voted to leave," is badly written. I don't know if that was by accident or design. In reality 1 million more people voted to Leave than to Remain. 9 out 12 regions and 63% of parliamentary constituencies voted to Leave.
1
@Bob Yes, I think Scotland should secede from the UK, Northern Ireland should too and reunite with the Republic of Ireland, Wales should do whatever it wants, and what's left of the UK should seek to make itself "great again."
@ellienyc Ireland has NEVER been one united country. It was a number of separate 'chieftain' areas until the Normans (from France incidentally) invaded and imposed their will on the country as indeed they had over the Anglo-Saxons. 'Great' Britain comes from the geographical legacy bestowed on the largest island by the Romans. Brit means 'painted people' and we were ALL Celtic.
"It's only hard to understand why it's taken SO LONG for a vote of no confidence" to be held.
WHO could possibly have ANY CONFIDENCE in May and her gang at this point? I mean, really? After inflicting punishing "austerity" on UK workers (while fat-cat Tory backers get richer, of course!), then all this Brexit demagoguery about a "deal" and hyper-rigidity in dealing with the Euros and Labour.
May and Cameron are probably the WORST "1-2 punch" in terms of disastrous PMs in British history!
Time for a change. Out with the deadwood and fat-cats!
1
Totally agree with you. You can trust May as far as you can throw her,..since she‘s been PM, she‘s broken about every promise she‘s made...
To our friends in the UK:
Throw out the Torres and give Jeremy Corbyn and Labour a shot.
1
It is so clear that most Brits regret this referendum. They were lied to about the benefits. Why don't they just hold another referendum? Instead of forging ahead the way they have -- this situation was quite predictable early on. It's absurd that they won't admit that mistakes were made, lies were told and that the benefits of Brexit are far outweighed by all the negatives for Brits and for all of Europe.
2
@Susan Tarrence "...Why don't they just hold another referendum? ...It's absurd that they won't admit that mistakes were made..."
Because "most Brits" are not one person.
1
Theresa May is absolutely toxic for her country. During the Brexit process she never missed a blunder opportunity, and remains frozen in total denial of reality until this very day. One can wonder if this lady has any notion of shame, self reflection and honor. To make things worse the majority of Tories in their duplicity and cowardice haven’t had the courage to sideline her early enough. Now the damage to GB, regardless of the outcome of Brexit, is irreparable.
Why doesn’t May declare that the issue of whether she should be PM has been decided and that any new vote would be anti democratic? After all, there’s this new concept of “no takesie-backsies” that prevents any new referendum on Brexit.
Brexit is the UK's Trump. And the common denominator is the Russian's interference in our elections.
It's also interesting that Nigel Farage had a hand in both Brexit and the campaign of Donald Trump. What are his ties to the Kremlin?
8
While I believe that Brexit is the acme of economic and political stupidity, the vote to exit the EU has set many things in motion that would be difficult to undo.
I do not envy Ms. May's position. She was placed in an untenable situation that was created by laughably bad political leadership that came before her. Her predecessor put up the Brexit vote in an effort to calm its strident bigot wing. That gambit failed. He then stepped down rather than face the consequences of his feckless ploy.
The biggest boosters of Brexit (Johnson and Farage) promised a deal that would allow the Uk to keep all the benefits of EU membership without having to give up much in return. Once Brexit passed, these leaders promptly quit.
Without a leader, the Tories held a rushed election to find a prime minister. It fell to May to make some sense of their unrealistic promises and try to forge some compromise that could have a chance to pass. Instead of helping her fulfill their Brexit dreams Farage & Johnson have done nothing (probably knowing that their goal was quixotic and idiotically unrealistic).
Now after negotiating a deal that is probably the best they could have gotten, many of these back benchers and chicken hawks are calling it insufficient. The privileged Brexit leaders who are sniping May's proposal should instead offer concrete details as to what they would do. Calling it a betrayal of the Brexit vote does nothing to fix the mess they have gotten Ms. May and the UK into.
6
Brexit may be bad economics but it is the democratic outcome. Yes, the campaign was not altogether truthful but no political campaign is altogether truthful. The world is simply too complex for that. Yes there might have been foreign intervention but the only one we definitely know of is Obama rooting for Remain. So it is complicated.
Unfortunately an honest second referendum will not help Remainers. Here is why:
1. First Referendum: Voters asked to choose between LEAVE and REMAIN. LEAVE was chosen.
2. Second Referendum: Now choose HOW to LEAVE. This cannot include REMAIN as a choice since that was decided in the First Referendum unless you ignore it. So voters must choose between MAY'S DEAL or NO DEAL since nothing else is on the table. Demanding an honest second referendum will therfore bring NO DEAL on the ballot and exclude REMAIN.
A dishonest second referendum could present the choice between MAY'S DEAL and REMAIN and successfully frustrate BREXIT. But the cost to the UK (in terms of social unrest and loss of faith in democracy), would be higher than a NO DEAL BREXIT.
2
Revocation seems to be an increasingly likely possibility regardless as a way to relieve the artificial time pressure created by Article 50.
1
What did the Brits really expect from EU? To exit the union but retain all privileges? The entire referendum to exit EU was hasty and poorly thought out. After all has been said and done, Brexit will consume several Prime Ministers before it all settles. We don't even remember David Cameron anymore.
5
All of the reporting (by the propaganda press), and the comments submitted thus far; all begin with the falsehoods regarding what has already happened and the consequences of that, which has already happened.
The Sovereign’s referendum; seeking the sense of Her subjects on the matter of withdrawing Her Kingdom from the Treaty of Lisbon; demonstrated that their will was; that their Kingdom should withdraw from the Treaty.
The Treaty as written and approved; envisioned that a State Party to the Treaty; could (if it so chose), choose to withdraw from the Treaty. And set down the principal (and functionally simple) process of withdrawal. The force of direction to withdraw now proceeds from the two simple and straightforward actions by the Treaty and the withdrawing State Party (the UK).
The Sovereign of the United Kingdom, in accordance with the processes of law, in Her Parliament, has (HAS); withdrawn from the Lisbon Treaty, in accord with that Treaty’s terms. The negotiations with the EU on new and specialized post-treaty framework of economic terms; does not affect or alter, the withdrawal occasioned, by the withdrawal decision; which itself was the result of positive law in the UK. This fact is the crucial misinformation from almost all sources, regarding what has thus far happened.
This is why the parliamentary system is so much more accountable and democratic than a presidential one.
1
Somewhere in the article I noticed the quite logical call for another referendum, one between the deal on the table and Brexit itself.
More rationally, why not add a third choice? One that captures the extreme position of "no deal: hard exit". Such a vote will dilute the di-pole positions and declare a clear preference among the three contending positions. Hard, soft, or none.
The problem with today's polarization is the existence of only two poles. The world is far better shading issues rather than forcing extremes. Whatever happened to "compromise"? It is our downfall to require "either, or". No plebiscite holds 100% to 0% results that warrant "all" or "nothing" as an outcome. How does 51% equal 100% and complete license; 49% equal 0% to be disenfranchised and damned?
Society's pendulum of political domination will forever swing back and forth in an orgy of excess for the winner and destruction for the loser.
Witness Trump and Republicans. The incentive is to cheat, seize and hold power knowing that in losing the former winner will inherit the whirlwind. Examples: Wisconsin and Michigan.
1
This is what happens when you have a referendum to determine the fate of the country. You are subject to the mood of the voters of the time, most of whom had no idea exactly what they were voting for. many were making a protest vote. Sound familiar, Trump voters? Can you imagine if we put it to an up down vote (simple majority) as to whether we should abandon all our alliances and trade deals and then were bound by the outcome? Bad idea.
13
@Will Rothfuss
Agreed. An issue this far reaching in consequence should never be subject to the whim of a simple majority of votes. Like here, where twice we came within less than one percentage point of seeing Quebec secede from the rest of Canada. Like a constitutional amendment, it should require a much higher percentage.
3
No sorry. Electing leaders to do these things based on what they promise to do is exactly what democracy is about. If the voters change their mind they can simply elect a different leader four years later. This is nothing like a referendum but interesting to see how much you hate democracy.
I don’t agree at all. We do not elect leaders to fulfill their campaign promises. We elect them to use their best judgment in running the country. If, when all the facts are in and the situation has been carefully analyzed, the “promise” looks like the road to disaster we hope our leaders will choose a different path. This is what representative government is all about.
1
If after two and a half years Britain can’t find a way to safely extricate itself from the European Union, it's not a member of the EU, it's their hostage.
8
The only thing Theresa May has failed at was making the unrealistic dreams of Brexit hardliners come true. There was never any chance that she'd be allowed to leave the EU administratively while retaining all the trade and freedom of movement benefits. The EU has no interest in or incentive to accept such an agreement. It is this basic fact that the Brexit proponents ignore to this day.
This isn't so much a vote of no confidence in Theresa May as it is a vote of nonsense in favor of unreasonable expectations.
18
There is no way on god’s green earth that the EU would ever agree to any leaving conditions that would be acceptable to the majority of Brits. And a hard exit isn’t acceptable either. What a mess. The only solution is to force another referendum. But even then it’s not clear the EU will let them stay, at least not with their former special status.
4
@P. P. Porridge
The EU's top court has ruled the UK can revoke Article 50 and halt Brexit without the permission of other member states. A judgement by the European Court of Justice gives the UK the right to unilaterally withdraw its notification to leave the EU.
8
Yes- right. They just need some leadership. Where will that come from? Can PM May just call bluff, after bluff and get them through this mess that way?
1
I think ECJ ruling said they basically could withdraw letter and ‘go back.’ Article 52 (?).
while it would be best for the UK to remain a part of united europe, it may not be for the EU. english hostility to the development of integrationist policies 1970s-90s, is partly the reason for european disfunction. policies were constantly being ameliorated to suit UK objections. not to mention their traditional hostility to anything from the 'continent'. there is a strong rationale for letting the english go it alone with their 'commonwealth'...good luck with that!
9
Recall that misinformation about Brexit fueled the vote to leave. PM May simply tried to do what the vote asked for. I wish someone would review the major statements prior to the Brexit vote and identify the people who lied about its impact, for or against. I think this entire proposition has been a farce and I would like to have a list of those who precipitated it. Rupert Murdock is one and Farage is another. Please identify them now so that when subsequent actions associated with Brexit or to remain are considered, Brits would have a better sense of the action. Tell Britain the US just went through the same kind of misguided and probably illegal electoral process and we are starting to face the magnitude of the mistake. When we begin to correct the process in the US, whatever path we take will disrupt the world significantly and Britain would be harmed more if the Brexit issue shackled their governance during that period.
7
This whole process seems destined to end with England becoming the 51st or 52nd state, or perhaps another province of Canada.
4
I note that within our democracy, politicians have the right to remove the premiere. I also note that your constitution has similar. Tonight's vote will either strengthen Theresa May or cause her to stand down, either way democracy wins. In the case of your own leader, it appears that few in the GOP are willing to end your embarrassment of a President's term of office? Why this should be is anyone's guess, but at least in the UK when push comes to shove, we at least try to remove an unpopular or incompetent leader.
9
@Vincent Why should Conservative party members decide who our prime minister is? Most of them white, most of them over the age of sixty.
@Vincent
At least almost 7 million Americans to date have signed their demand to impeach Trump. Maybe they should be listened to? It seems incredible that a handful of old guys in the Senate can over ride the now glaringly obvious need to end this farce!
1
Does anyone do farce better than the English?
8
Thanks to Steve Bannon. The UK should end Brexit and kick Bannon in the you know where. It's disgusting that ugly man had anything to do with this problem for May. She is awesome and the UK is lucky to have her. They should end Brexit with a kick in Bannon's face. It might make it easier to look at.
5
I suspect that the UK has more confidence in May's ability to tweak her unpleasant plan and leave the EU peacefully than they do in Raab's or Boris Johnson's ability to carry out a successful high-wire act to crash their way out with a No Deal Brexit.
37
We are watching a friend tear themselves apart. We should stand ready to help, it appears as if they will need it. Normally, doing right by Britain would be a no brainier, now however. . . .
Would someone please explain 'Friendship' to Trump?
6
I do not envy Theresa May or the position she is in. The entire Brexit scenario is such a muddled disaster, even Winston Churchill would be receiving no-confidence votes.
11
Winston Churchill would have told the country the truth.He would never have jeopardized the country over Party. He was a true statesman and patriot. We need someone like him as it seems that this indeed is our darkest hour, surpassing the Blitz.
May has lied and weaseled to remain in power when it is abundantly clear that there is no "good" exit from EU. Only awful and even more awful.
She is too spineless and rigid to admit that even when it seems she might actually have the majority of sane Britons behind her She could save herself and the country by just telling the truth.
Somebody has to stand up and say that this emperor is decidedly naked. Would that May could do that.
@Marge Keller
Why am I reminded of "Titanic", when after long foundering, the ship accelerates into the water?
Britain, land of stiff upper lip and muddle through, only had to settle down and hold course. It could navigate to new identity as France and Germany's equal in the EU. Instead, it reverted to 18th century immaturity, screaming immigrants and taxes. Only this time there's no 7 sea navy to fall back on.
The Irish have the last laugh. Inside Titanic's engine room they went down with the ship. This time, their border's the thing to sink the king.
On to Portugal, anyone?
9
To our sisters and brothers across the pond: Yanks know the feeling...to be told your leader (or leaders to-be) have a way to bring back the glory of your sovereignty, to have them point to so many scapegoats, offer vague assurances of prosperity and victory.
Then you find, vagaries were behind all the vagueness, the men and women were lying, and what's worse a foreign influence machine meddled in it all...the reality sets-in that your leaders never wanted to take any responsibility for the pain its citizens would feel in implementing their half-baked ideas. It leaves a person feeling very upset and anxious, and quite ready to vote. Good luck to you all, and my sincerest hopes to your people that you avoid the suffering already inflicted upon so many here in America from its current batch of leaders.
12
Britain can only be so lucky to have a leader like Teresa May.
She's a battle axe and smart as a whip. Blaming her is redundant. Losing her would be a waste of her abilities.
Who'd replace her? Boris Johnson? Not exactly the sharpest knife in the skullery drawer.
6
Enter BoJo the Clown? Who will arrive at No. 10 via ZipLine?
3
All the northern EU democracies are raging against the fact that their standard of living, in their view a birthright, is gradually slipping away. Meanwhile, Italian politicians are shamelessly exacerbating their hopeless financial situation by lowering the retirement age. I have a hard time imagining how the EU can survive the next recession, regardless of which way the UK goes.
5
In hindsight, it would seem that Theresa May should have taken the "advice" president Trump offered her in July.
Brexit has all been about nothing more than internal Conservative Party politics. First Cameron calls a referendum to shut up his internal critics. Then, having got the result they craved, and with the open support of the right wing press, simply because they are not getting their own way (cherries, cake, sovereignty etc) they are now throwing the baby (May) out with the bathwater! FFS it will change nothing. Except of course it will create more indecision, another fall on the pound and further chaos. All thanks to a bunch of disjointed, rabid ERG and petty party politicking above the needs of the entire nation. The "Conservative and UNIONIST Party"? They are having a laugh. At our future expense.
7
So if the polls today said that Hillary would easily defeat Trump, we should have a second presidential vote?
1
Yes, please!
4
The Whips must be taking extra measures of blood pressure scripts. The old saw about an honest politician.."When he is bought, he stays bought", no longer applies.
The folded tally sheet with the running totals now looks like a kindergarten addition lesson. All the fortune tellers have no expertise in this mess.
I opined two years ago that Northern Ireland would be the spanner in the works and it has come to pass. Since Johnson and Rees-Mogg could give a Tinker's Damn about NI before the referendum, it will result now in No-Deal.
4
Changing the PM won't make Brexit a good idea. https://bindassnews.com/. We can only hope the Good People of the U.K. will demand a new vote. Like the midterms in the U.S. in November people will show up to vote in droves because most average people in the world simply want to live in relative peace and prosperity. Many U.K. citizens - and European citizens - remember WWI and WW2 and the destruction they caused to lives, families and societies.
4
Sounds a lot like a recent presidential candidate to me.
1
Corbyn, Johnson and the rest of the know-nothing Brexiteers are only capable of throwing rocks from the sidelines.
Brexit supporters are a lot like US "Tea" party types screaming for the government to keep their hands off their medicare and social security.
What a disgrace.
8
There is a basic principle which is you can not have your cake and eat it too. When in the Sixties the French President de Gaulle said no to the UK PM Harold MacMillan it was on the principle that you are in or out of the Common Market which is now the EU. In others words you follow the rules like everybody else and you do not cherry picking. UK was already asking for special rules for her. So if Britain wants to quit the EU, you quit without cherry picking, period! And then you may negotiated a free trade deal.
5
The working class in America was sold a bill of goods by our current president who lied about the root causes of our economic problems and promised a fantastical solution that will never work. Likewise, the Brits were sold a concept that sounded nice on paper but that would never work because it was premised on falsehoods and xenophobia. We'll be done with Trump by 2020, but the people of the UK will suffer under any Brexit formula for the foreseeable future.
It should be clear enough now that there is no Brexit that won't be more painful than membership in the EU. No one could put forth a solution that would satisfy a majority. The details of a breakup and their consequences should be a lot clearer now than when the referendum was held. The only rational solution is to give the electorate another chance to vote on the subject with the perspective it now has. Give them clearer options on the ballot: remain, soft exit, hard exit. My guess is that remain would be the clear winner, and the people can put this nightmare behind them.
3
One of the pro-Brexit arguments was 'getting rid of faceless Brussels beaurocrats'.
Can anyone tell me the difference between a faceless Brussels beaurocrat and a faceless Whitehall beaurocrat? Other than the possibility that the former probably speaks better English?
p.
6
I think the EU should give the UK some extra time to make up its mind about what exactly comes after "KEEP CALM and..."
"Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way"
3
Off with her! Would that we could do the same with Trump in the US.
3
In essence, what would be good for Britain is an agreement with the EU whereby the eonomic benefits of being an EU member stay intact while allowing Britain to control its own borders to exclude from Britain the immigrants that Germany permitted to invade Europe.
Over here in the USA, just because we have NAFTA for its economic effect doesn't mean that Canadians and Mexicans can come and go as they please as if there is no border. Britain needs something like that.
2
@MIKEinNYC
Buh bye Little Britain...
3
How can Germany allow immigrants into Europe when it has no border to a non-EU country (except Switzerland)?
That would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, which would violate the Good Friday Agreement and bring back The Troubles.
3
A real leader would call another referendum on Brexit and find out if the British citizens still want to leap off the cliff or whether with a few years to think more carefully about the sharp rocks and boiling tide at the bottom have decided it's best to lay down a blanket and picnic where they are.
5
@617to416 Sure but she does have to consider that this initiative came from the Tories and, whether she agrees with it or not, she believes she has to die trying to carry out what her party voted for.
If it goes out for another referendum, it will of course be voted down.
1
I believe the British people are welcome to stay in the European House. only backward minded believe that a splendid isolation will work Global economy is not happening in a bubble forget the past create the future this planet is different from the 19th century’s
3
The men who pushed for Brexit run away to leave it to Mrs May to fix the chaos they created by cheating and lying to the people Where is Boris to negotiate a better deal?
7
Pretty sure the first rule of negotiating with hardliners is don’t negotiate with hardliners. They will never be satisfied and will always want more, up to and including your head.
7
This should be a lesson for the US. For those who say “it can’t happen here”.... it can.
Another observation, in the past, US diplomats would have aided our allies to keep the peace. By following Mr. Trump’s “gut instincts”, we have a depleted State Department & messes around the world.
6
Oh how I wish the American people could dispose of a political player so easily with a vote of no confidence. It might make our own administration more accountable, if not more honest.
7
Almost half the country did not want the Brexit deal in the first place, and that proportion has likely grown since the realities of Brexit have become known. Teresa May has done an excellent job delivering a Brexit deal that is somewhat palatable to both sides and her own government is stabbing her in the back to serve their own interests, rather than the people. JRM and Boris are two of the most self-serving, chauvinistic, fear-mongering liars that have ever been elected to government. They have used the hope of deluded OAP's to fuel their power grab with complete disregard for the good of the country.
67
@John Adams
Watch, the Banking conglomerates will prevail. They prefer London to Frankfort, and Brussels interference .
I do wish commenters would not confuse England with the United Kingdom. The UK consists of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England. What may be good for England, can be positively detrimental to the other regions; to wit, Brexit.
Voting leave seemed like a great wheeze when we we're down the pub being regaled by tales of derring-do and repelling Johnny Foreigner by Farage and BoJo et al. Now that we've sobered up and the evening's entertainment is revealed as pure fantasy, a vote on its truthfulness and merit appears to be a sensible course of action. Why are the politicians so scared of it?
7
We dodged this kind of bullet twice in Canada: once in the late 70's and again in the late 80's with referendums in Quebec on separation from the rest of the country. The people who support these kind of "exits" usually have little or no idea that a divorce on this scale will cost the moon, and will have dire effects for years, probably decades. Of course, another vote will rear its head in time, no doubt. Britain is in a real spot, and the generation that didn't want this will be the ones to pay the price.
6
The most interesting outcomes from major political events are the unintended ones, always. With Brexit we have the chance to observe three, in particular.
The Scottish, the Welsh, and the Northern Irish increasingly question the value in belonging to the earlier EU of the North Sea, the United Kingdom. The English have never been more alone in the world on their part of an island.
The remaining EU members now have a wonderful cautionary tale in the UK in the folly of taking steps to leave the union. The UK will serve as an object lesson for a couple generations, at least.
The Russians have been outed as provocateurs, working in concert with certain members of the English elite to cause Brexit. This story will continue to unwind for years, hardening European attitudes to their neighbor to the east.
9
The idea that deposing Ms. May would put (the) "country at risk and create uncertainty" is a bit absurd. What would you call the present, if not risky and uncertain? It could hardly be more.
There seems to be some Anglo/American cultural trait where damaged or discredited leaders insist on fighting for their positions. Other cultures they bow out gracefully.
May's Brexit deal has already been rejected. What more can she do? Her E.U. begging-tour this week was as embarrassing as it was pointless.
The British voted for Brexit because they thought it would be empowering and bring them autonomy. It's actually brought them national irrelevance. They've got great literature, great T.V. and Morris dancing - which is fine given England's bold new future as nothing more than a tourist destination.
6
@Gary F.S. "cultural trait where damaged or discredited leaders insist on fighting for their positions"
As the leader of the party, she is obligated to execute what her party and its voters voted for, like it or not.
I'm sure she'd love to bail out but she has to hold firm until some power greater than herself -- the Parliament, the people -- forces her to do what no Tory leader could do on their own.
2
@DickeyFuller What you say might be true but for the fact that she is facing a no confidence vote precisely because she is apparently not doing what her party and what the voters allegedly want her to do. This comes on the heels of being the first P.M. in British history to be held in 'contempt of Parliament.' Under the circumstances, I think any reasonable person would call her 'leadership,' at minimum, questionable.
Hope they end up having a second referendum. It looks like "Remain" would win if there is a second vote. And a united E.U. including Britain is definitely in the U.S. interest.
12
Remain would probably win for several reasons. The reality of the deal is very different from what was touted; that's enough to change a bunch of minds. The greatest change is a demographic one; older voters who were 65% leavers will have succumbed to the ravages of time. They have been replaced by younger voters who generally favor remaining by 80%.
3
I'm no fan of England's conservative government, and think it has done enormous harm to the country since Thatcher took the reins when I was a resident there.
That said, I hate to see this uncertainty in European leadership, similar to the kind of chaos the US has experienced as a result of Russian and other interference in our elections.
We are all capable of making our own mistakes without outside actors getting involved with the goal of only making it worse. I wish the English people, if not their government, the best during these uncertain times.
10
@avrds It's the 'UK's Conservative government,' not England's.
2
@Gary Schnakenberg
Right you are.
Perhaps the Brexiteers are sincere in saying May's deal is worse than no Brexit at all. Although it's unclear how we get from here to there, it's pretty clear now that Brexit isn't going to happen, thanks in no small part to the Brexiteers. You get the distinct impression they never really wanted it in the first place, that they'd rather have the EU and be able to complain about it than to actually leave and have to live with and be responsible for the consequences.
9
@Larry
It isn't May's deal or no Brexit. Its May's deal or a 'No Deal' Brexit. That is the only choice here. No Brexit is not possible without a second referendum and there is no way there will be a second referendum. So either May's deal, or no deal, but there will still be a Brexit.
4
@GregP
You speak with confidence about something it's impossible to know, or predict, at this stage but it is a fact that most opinion polls show that people now want a second referendum to decide the country's fate. It would therefore be wise for Parliament to take to act accordingly.
4
@GregP I think you are misinformed. The ECJ ruled on Monday that the UK government can unilaterally withdraw Article 50 - the part of EU membership that they invoked to start the process of leaving the EU. That means that the options available are Mrs May’s deal, no deal, a second referendum which could include remaining in the EU or even Parliament voting to withdraw Article 50.
And Article 50 can be suspended to allow more time to decide what to do, though I am not sure if other EU countries would have to agree to this or if the ECJ ruling would apply to this as well.
700,000 people marched in London calling for a second referendum and a petition of 1 million signatures was handed in to Downing Street asking for one as well. There is a lot of support for one.
5
Incoherent thoughts and uncrystallized feelings drive the Leave generation: they want their country back again, when, in fact, they never lost it. Time and technology happened. Over 70% of potential voters under 30 support Remain. The older folk have real complaints, but they are more usefully directed at the changing world and at the globalized economy. There are those who remain unemployed in the wake of modernization. There are those who hanker after what they imagine the past to have been. And there are many who wilt in the face of video of drowning refugees. Macron and Merkel are now facing similar issues. A UK PM within the EU might be a real force with those two, a force to redirect ethos and economy more towards the well-being of citizens than to the profits of the wealthy. Significantly, various measures of well-being and satisfaction put Scandinavians high on the lists of satisfied populations.
15
Make Longbridge great again. Make Blackpool great again. Oh, and while we're at it, let's just make the Six Counties a war zone again.
2
@Des Johnson
Waiting for a UK PM to do anything other than serve the UK's 0.01% - and by extension, Russia's 0.01% - is like waiting for pigs to fly.
(Helpful reminder : 10 years after the fact, Amazon's impending rollout of drone deliveries remains 5 years in the future...)
3
If Britain is determined to leave the EU, it needs a PM who also supports that. May has been opposed to Brexit, and this was the inevitable result.
1
When arguments go horribly wrong, I often look for hidden assumptions in what the participants say:
"David Gauke, the justice secretary, warned pro-Brexit lawmakers that if she were ousted, it would increase the risk that Britain would have to postpone its departure from the European Union. He argued that a successor would not be chosen until the end of January or early February, after the date at which the Brexit deal is expected to return to Parliament for the critical vote."
The hidden assumption here is that the UK can unilaterally extend the March 29 deadline, despite the seemingly clear wording of the EU treaty. The assumption by many in the UK seems to be that the UK is in total control of the negotiations because the EU would do anything, anything! to keep the UK from leaving. For something like completely rewriting a key part of its founding treaty, I am pretty certain that this would require unanimous ratification by all 27 remaining nations and well before March 29. I don't see this as likely unless all of the 27 agree that extending this period of economic brinkmanship is no problem for their own economies.
Two general rules to good negotiation: first, gauge the relative strength of your opponent and second, understand the goals and needs of your opponent. Mistaken judgments of either can result in disaster.
15
@Grindelwald EU have indicated they would extend it .European Court of Justice has says UK can unilaterally cancel.
@Martin Spence, very interesting! Can you supply a reference? I could see the EU finding it in its unanimous self interest to extend the deadline, but only for a very short time and only if the possible results were constrained. For example, a month or two but only to allow time for a referendum vote where the wording and the method of determining a winning option were specified and agreed upon by all 28 nations before March 29.
I didn't want to get into the issue of long-term side effects of last-minute legal reinterpretations. Consider the recent interpretation that rescinding the original invocation is allowed unilaterally and without further legal consequence. I'm no lawyer, but it seems that this ruling now sets a precedent. For example, why can't the UK now cancel the current invocation on, say March 28 and then invoke Article 50 anew on March 29? That would give the UK two more years to continue all this.
It's interesting. In the Brexit matter, Theresa May is the very essence of a characteristic that is almost "genetic" to the British. That characteristic is the ability to arrive at a decision and see it through, no matter what the cost. It is an admirable characteristic and has served Britain well for the most part. WW II comes to mind. Unfortunately, the Prime Minister sees the Brexit referendum as that type of decision by the British and is determined to see it through at any cost. She doesn't perceive that the people may, after having time for a "sober second thought" during the past 18 months, be reconsidering the wisdom of that vote. She is determined to press ahead. I only hope the result is not another "[The] Charge of the Light Brigade."
8
@Edward B Reynolds Jr: In the referendum, May voted Remain.
1
@Des Johnson
Ballots are secret, so how do you know she voted? Because she said so? Do you really consider that reasonable on your part?
@Des Johnson Yes - she clearly never wanted it but sees it as her duty as the leader of the party to carry it out.
Hoping the pro-Brexit U.K. citizens will weigh in as to our the U.K. can do a "hard" exit and keep their British economy intact. That seems to be the crux of the issue.
1
@John: A hard Brexit will split the economy. Scotland and the pro-Remain voters (a majority) in NI will not settle down to be good empire Brits of the 1950s.
2
@John
John from Washington, g'day.
From your comment it is clear you do not fully understand the impact a hard brexit will have on England Great Britain, Europe and the rest of the world.
Please try to enlighten yourself a bit on this issue, it is important.
Have a nice day
1
Whatever the outcome of today's vote or that of the BREXIT deal in the future, never fear. The toffs and swells will always Rule Britannia. As Sir Humphrey Appleby used to say: There are only two universities in the country. See: Oxbridge.
5
They won’t, it’s handy for them to have a scapegoat. It’s why she hasn’t been forced out despite a litany of scandals that, in normal political times, would have prompted any decent politician to quit.
1
@Jeff Please provide evidence for your "litany of scandals" assertion.
11
@John See universal credit, the Windrush scandal(which May was personally responsible for), the 'hostile environment' scandal, the atrocious handling of the 2017 election and sending poor Amber Rudd on to catch the flack on the big TV debate despite the fact she was grieving for a recently lost father, the general, closeted and high handed approach towards the Brexit negotiations, the multiple Conservative Party donor scandals, the Parliament bullying scandals, Grenfell tower... I'm sure there's more but that's off the top of my head. The number of Cabinet ministers she's used as human shields is disgusting.
It is possible for the British to "scotch" the whole deal. Oil. and I believe thats the hidden problem. Who gets the revenue from Scottish Oil Wells in the north sea. Everything else regarding trade and Europe, etc...seems to have been addressed and agreed to.....but in unspoken political maneuvering....the real plum to be stolen is Scottish Oil....and right now Scotland is once again feeling very independent and is comfortable with the EU deal. More resistance to change comes from that other half of the UK floating just off to the west.....Ireland. The conflict over there has never actually been faith or "irish vs english"(pretty much the same bunch of folks, actually).......but only that manufactured by State Religion centered on London or centered on Rome.....who gets the tax revenues and Rome's underhanded tactics to bring the English to heel.(EU vs Brexit can be seen as an extension of this long time conflict also).
3
The best outcome for the British, Europe and the world would be if the UK stayed in the EU under a Labor government that puts the city’s financial sector in check with higher taxes and stringent regulations.
23
Prime Minister May got thrown under the bus. She stepped up and took over when the cowards behind "leave" wouldn't. I'm sure that was the plan - cause chaos and get rid of a powerful woman at the same time.
We can only hope the Good People of the U.K. will demand a new vote. Like the midterms in the U.S. in November people will show up to vote in droves because most average people in the world simply want to live in relative peace and prosperity. Many U.K. citizens - and European citizens - remember WWI and WW2 and the destruction they caused to lives, families and societies.
Please, Good People of the U.K., do not let the Robber Barons take over your government. Not now. Not ever.
27
Same bus that had the £350-million-pounds-a-week lie painted on it?
2
BRexit as negotiated by Theresa May and her ministers appears to be a very solid, reasonable, logical approach to leaving the EU. All the London Banking Accountants have done the math...and it makes good financial sense. What remains is to convince those outliers who FEAR the unknown future......much as almost 49.999% of American Colonists balked at Declaring Independence, prefering the safety and stability of a German King and English Parliament.
What remains is convincing a perenially difficult Scottish population that its One Island, As always......and further convincing the INCREDIBLY difficult Irish that they also are tied to the United Kingdom. How great would that be if all Ireland were whole again? and part of the United Kingdom under a new set of federalist government that allows for home rule?? Stop Rome's meddling in irish affairs. Re=instate the UK.
5
@Wherever Hugo I believe Rome's interfering with Irish affairs was stopped when the Irish elected a gay guy as prime minister and held a referendum which resulted in allowing abortion.
And I rest my case.
1
Changing the PM won't make Brexit a good idea. To rescind the exit is the only sane option. Call for a new referendum: Should Berlin, rather than London, be the epicenter of finance for Europe?
10
@MHW Europeans don‘t want England in the EU if they keep sabotaging regulations of the financial sector.
7
What's truly fascinating about this situation is that even the political parties are split on Brexit. I can't imagine any such momentous issue in the US being endlessly debated within each party. Republicans would take the opposite position from Obama and Hillary, and Democrats would take the opposite position from Trump and McConnell. Lines would be drawn in about 10 minutes.
3
As someone who has felt from the start that Brexit was a short-sighted, anti-immigrant, populist reaction to membership in the EU, I can only hope that the eventual outcome will result in another popular vote on the question of EU membership. "Leavers", as the pro-Brexit faction is called, promised much that could not be delivered, not surprisingly, and a hard look at the many benefits of EU membership need to be stressed. The youth, who stand to gain the most by remaining, but not unlike the USA, fail to vote in large numbers, should take the example from our recent election, when America's youth did in fact, vote in substantial numbers to turn away from those who make false or exaggerated promises. I wish them well.
16
If I were British, I would want to be out of the EU even if it meant I was a little poorer. My feeling is that the British negotiators don't really want to leave. If they were more confident, they would take a more aggressive bargaining approach. Maybe they should be reaching out to Greece, Italy, Hungary, Spain, and inviting them into a new trade association which is less beneficial to Germany and France. Maybe they need to reach out to the French protestors who are in the streets of Paris. Globalization is bad for working class people. Marx wrote about it over 100 years ago.
6
@Mike: They could easily be a lot poorer than a little poorer. Pride goeth before a fall.
8
@Mike Yeah, but uniquely the EU accompanies its economic liberalization with strong worker, consumer and environmental protections (something no other globalizing project, e.g. NAFTA, does). Though some o left oppose EU, campaign to leave EU will empower right-wing low-regulation global free traders who thirst for elimination of EU social-democratic protections.
15
@Mike
Your remark more resembles Russian meddling in US elections than a serious suggestion for the UK. Do you work for State? Or the CIA?
Your specific suggestions for alliances in particular are quite hilarious btw and demonstrate both little understanding both of the nature of the EU and the individual issues between nations. Spain and the UK aren't in a shooting war because the EU keeps them civil with each other. Imagining the UK could negotiate a thing with Spain without relinquishing Gibraltar is simply preposterous. And the UK would send a carrier to Gibraltar before ceding land it conquered centuries ago. Ask Argentina about it.
Fact is, each of those countries need the EU more than the EU needs them, including the UK. That's what makes the EU valuable and Brexit such a dumb idea. And your idea, simply entertaining.
6
These conservatives are going to drive the UK off an economic cliff. The only silver lining for us, in the US, will be seeing mistakes we should avoid in the future.
Brexit is a stupid, ill conceived, knee-jerk example of societal self annihilation gone mad. When it is finally implemented, it will represent a nation harming itself due to the same hatreds and prejudices driving nationalism in the United States.
Just like individuals consumed by fear and hate seek out destruction, so to does the collective consciousness that makes up nations and cultures.
Brexit is driven by Thanatos, not Eros. It represents a drive to destroy - not create.
26
Speaking from England, I think most people here are vicariously enjoying the political entertainment.
5
@John Hudson
Not entirely false!
However, speaking from across the channel, there is more than a little anger mixed in at the sheer reckless mendacity and stupidity of British politicians and public surrounding the EU.
The only redeeming feature in this seemingly inevitable train wreck will be enjoying the schadenfreude of watching the UK drive off the cliff by its own hand and not by foreign invasion by a despotic power, mixed in with a little fear of the short and long term damage that will inevitably cross the channel. But since all I can do is watch, I'll be popping a bottle of champagne should the lunatics finally take over the asylum...
3
May be wrong, but from a distance she seems completely incompetent, and unable to lead at all. What was her past role in gov't and how did she manage to rise the ranks of power within her party?
3
@Michael W.
You are wrong, as it happens. I profoundly disagree with her on most issues, but incompetent she is not. She was Home Secretary (running the police, security services, immigration and citizenship, drug policy etc etc) for 6 years. It's probably the most thankless job in the Cabinet and while she ran an unforgivably hostile immigration policy, she was clearly on top of her brief.
She lacks charisma, and she made a serious misjudgement when she gave too much ground to the brexiteers early in her tenure. But her main problem is that the job was impossible. There is no satisfactory way of managing the brexit mess, and whoever took over after the referendum would have failed.
18
@Michael W. Home Secretary. Before that, a shadow minister.
1
@Charles Marshall thanks for the insight!
A second referendum would likely put an end to all this Brexit nonsense.
But the conservatives in Parliament will never allow that referendum to happen; it would sabotage their leverage.
So it seems conservatives have manufactured an artificial dilemma, which now threatens all citizens of the country.
13
I would agree, a second vote would be best for the UK. The first vote was really just on the "concept" of Brexit, and as they say "the devil is in the details", now that the British have those details, they should be the final arbiter. From what I read about polling on the subject, it looks like the public is no longer behind Brexit.
89
@ejr1953
Seems to me that general votes on important issues are not well informed votes. It’s like asking a room full of 10 year olds if they should have candy for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Populism is not democracy. Neither are these big issue history changing votes. It’s more emotional than rational and shows how populism is a bad idea. We seeing that here too
12
you would think that the Brits are looking forward to voting on the reality of Brexit as opposed to the lies. however, when I listen to the recent guardian podcast made in North England, people "just want to get on with it". apparently they are not even worried they got lied to.
1
@ejr1953
I think a 2d popular vote on Brexit would be equivalent to the US election of 1860 in which the Democratic Party was divided in two over the issue of the constitutionality of slavery, hence allowing no reliable response to the Republican candidate, (thus triggering secession and civil war).
It would guarantee that the final decision would be a vote of trust (or hope) in the Republican candidate. In America's case, that decision to split the opposition did not turn out well. In Britain's case, I think the vote on May today is basically novel way of refusing to split the opposition.
It makes no logical sense why May's proposed Brexit deal isn't put to a vote by the UK people, with them given a choice between that deal and staying in the EU.
Some will argue "you don't get to do a do-over vote." But, why not, especially given that, in the interim since the original vote, it's become very clear to the UK people what Brexit will actually mean for them -- versus the fantastical promises that were made by Johnson and others before the original Brexit vote.
It seems those who oppose another vote do so because they very much expect the results a second time around would be different than the first -- with the UK people now fully aware of the implications of Brexit and with a solid majority now appreciating that while remaining in the EU wouldn't be perfect, it'd be better what they'd face as a result of Brexit.
20
The U.K. people are otherwise known as the British.
The obvious thing to do is to call another referendum.]
If they do, the vision on which the "Leave "advocates make their case will look much different. It will be reality, not fantasy. And if he vote is Leave anyway, so be it.
21
The UK economy is smaller then the GDP of the state of California. Despite it's Imperial past, today it is no longer an economic powerhouse. Most indications point to a diminished future outside of the European Union. The isolationists roots of Brexit while understandable lead only to a reduced future for its citizens. Teresa May should be commended for a noble effort trying to implement a foolhardy policy. Driving the UK economy off a cliff might serve to diminish the isolationists in countries around the world. Painful medicine but it may benefit others. If Teresa May received a no-confidence vote today in Parliament she should simply smile and say thank you.
19
@Jim McGrath - and it is not only that it is smaller than it was during the imperial past - it is that most of it is finance and trade based in London and dependent on membership in the EU...
6
@Jim McGrath Just a friendly reminder, income isn't wealth.
2
@Jim McGrath Actually (and factually) the UK economy is the fifth largest in the world, and the second largest in Europe.
2
Why would they vote her out when none of them want her job—at least not till Brexit is resolved one way or the other. Talk about a career killer!
12
Theresa May has ignored the will of the British people and dragged her feet in implementing Brexit. She is a traitor to her party and the voters she was elected to represent. As with Democrats here in America, she is hoping that delaying and obfuscating will lead to another vote on the issue.
4
@paul I watched (live) her comments to the House of Commons. She specifically rejected a second vote, many times. Also, I hope you recall the first vote was about a vague withdrawal (fantasy Brexit) and now they have the real terms and economic analysis (reality Brexit). And this is why they have the backstop agreement about the border between Ireland and N. Ireland which is a sticking point (Good Friday agreement requires no border). Also the first vote had massive Russian interference and lies about spending the savings from leaving the EU on the National Health System (after the vote it was admitted this was a lie). So I think they should have a second vote on the reality Brexit. And she did not.
24
@ctmurrayExactly. White Plains Paul has it 100% backwards. Brexit barely won with massive interference from Russia and disinformation from Corbyn, Johnson, et al who tried to sell a fantasy of England & the Union Jack's glory days. As ever those types relied on the elderly pensioners in the rural counties who don't get that the benefits that subsidize their lives are dependant on British trade & the EU. Their classic, Island inspired Xenophobia hates immigration & resents the taxes that pay for their health & other services. As ever, those politicos ignore the cities with their young, energetic & less anti immigrant populations as those are a threat to their power. May was not for Brexit but has valiantly tried to make a deal with the EU that won't cripple England. That it has fatal flaws like the Irish border issue reflects the impossibility of undoing the threads of commerce, as we are seeing here in the US with 45's ridiculous tariffs against Canada & Mexico that has forced car plant closings with more economic fallout to come that will hurt Americans. The only real answer for Britain is another referendum where Brexit will fail. It's that or lose Ireland, Scotland & Wales & be further diminished & even less able to provide the services those Brexiteers rely on, as, just like the Trumpista Obama Care haters yelled against touching their Medicare, they don't get it's all Govt. programming. Fortunately the EU has made their quiet reentry possible.
5
The Brits liked to think of themselves as phlegmatic pragmatists and then Brexit comes along and noisily bursts that bubble in front of the whole world. Reality seems to be closer to John Cleese's Fawlty Towers than Daniel Craig's James Bond....
16
We had our Brexit in 1776, although at this point, in some ways, we are not appreciably better off than our dear cousins.
8
Not that I think that lil ol me could actually come up with an original idea, period, but an original idea about the endlessly discussed Brexit, but...
Has anyone floated the idea of having a referendum on whether there should be a second referendum on Brexit? Seems like a possible way out. Those in any of the three main parties (and anyone else) could just say, "Look, now that we have some better idea of what Brexit will likely mean, let's decide, democratically, whether we want to revisit it. If that referendum comes back, no; well, we've lost nothing, but gained some time with the EU. No worse off. If it comes back, yes, well, then we have a redo."
6
There has been talk of that. May would not allow it. But yes, considering possible Russian interference in the run up to the referendum, and the fact that many people think that vote was a mistake, it seems like a good idea.
7
@Doug Tarnopol
Meta Democracy 2.0. I like it, but it'll never fly.
The Brits like to think about themselves as phlegmatic pragmatists, but they are anything but at heart. The words bumbling, petty hotheads come to mind.
7
@Vivien Hessel I figured someone must have had the idea; thanks! Maybe someone not-May would revive the possibility.
Once again, UK has arrived at an impasse that only a second vote can undo.
They have to go back to the people to get a definitive mandate to either get out or stay in. Since politicians cannot arrive at an agreement, it is the people that must take the initiative. It does not do any good to British society if an accord is forced through, leaving half of the voters dissatisfied. Now that they know what really is at stake, they can vote with the knowledge that they didn't have to begin with.
13
Is there any way to reconcile Brexit with the Good Friday Agreement? No one seems to be able to come up with one - with a Brexit that preserves a frictionless internal UK economy and the frictionless one that exists now between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Pushed to choose between a return to the horrors of a hard border in Ireland (Brexit) and staying in the EU, they'll have to stay in.
6
@jesse
Yes there is. We could leave the EU but remain in the customs union. That wouldn't satisfy most brexiteers because it would not free us to negotiate trade deals separately from the bloc. But it would end freedom of movement and uncontrolled immigration, and it would be the least damaging form of brexit.
@Charles Marshall
Thank you, and I agree that clearly is the least catastrophic form of leaving - but is it available? Is/was that on offer from Europe? And is there anything approaching a majority in the Commons for it?
You got to give it to May: she took on an impossible task while the Leavers abandoned ship. Hats off to her for trying.
38
As I witness these counter-intuitive events of late in the United States and England, it occurs to me that the motivations behind the idiocy of the Trump debacle and the Brexit self-destruction are the same:
They are the result of putting too much of a nation’s money (and, hence, power and influence), into the hands of too few.
I used to guffaw at those who referred to “oligarchs” and “plutocrats” in the United States. No more guffaws from me. What is Sheldon Adelson? What are Charles and David Koch? For that matter, what are Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Elon Musk, etc.?
These ongoing carnivals in the U.S. and England are distractions. They divert attention from the raping and pillaging of our national resources and of the public trust. This evisceration occurs because plutocrats control the feckless Senators and members of Congress in Our Capitol. How else to explain the spineless, greedy, self-dealing and absurd actions of our President and our elected officials.
Not sure if it was Barnum or someone else who first said a sucker is born every minute. This fact has been exploited more in the past 25 years than at any other time in my 60 years.
Let’s all vote. It’s our only remedy. Oh, and promote meaningful education for our children. It’s going to take more than a generation to turn this thing around in the right direction. It has to begin with an educated populace.
59
May is making the best of a really bad position. But, also, I have a news flash for Jacob Rees-Mog, Boris Johnson, and Michael Gove. There is no more British Empire. The commonwealth will not save you. Brexit is an expression of the loss of the old British identity as a major world power. Instead fo embracing a new identity as part of a larger global society, people are afraid and cling to a past that shows them who they are supposed to be. But you cannot stop the tide of change. I fear that this will not end well, because as those of us who have read Marshall McLuhan know, violence is the ultimate quest for identity.
14
Putin must be delighted with all this. His objective has been to sew confusion among his enemies, exactly as we see in Britain today.
29
@Allfolks Equal Putin is doing a really good job of it across Europe, too. He wants the old USSR boundaries back, and since he can't take on NATO or the EU, he is working to undermine them.
8
@Allfolks Equal
If you really believe that why are you doing his bidding by continuing to sow the discontent? Every time you try to invalidate a result by blaming Russia you serve his interests. He wanted to sow discord, not get a particular result and you play right into his hands. Nice work.
2
@Allfolks Equal Sew clothes, sow seeds and confusion.
3
Britain's Conservatives bring to mind our GOP's pursuit of populist ideology right to the bitter end, right up to the point where they are cornered by their own idiocy and the only way out is to inflict further damage on the public weal. Brexit was a terrible populist idea used to deflect blame for Great Britain's #1 problem - income inequality. Now the English have four big problems: income inequality, Brexit, polarization of the populace and the dismantling of the famed English healthcare system. Good luck to England. Take heed America.
33
Was there no way under Heaven or on God’s Earth to require a super-majority — say 2/3 — vote to leave the E.U. ? In my little town of Kent, WA, a suburb of Seattle, a 60 pct majority would be required on a bond issue to raise money for sewer maintenance! But a simple 50%-plus-1 vote suffices to determine E.U. membership?! Welcome to Wonderland, Alice!
20
@James Cowles, right! You can't have half of the population undo the lives of the other half. If a fundamental condition is to be changed, there should be a preponderant majority. Cameron made a big mistake in not putting at least a 5% difference for the referendum. Of course, like us with our election, he was sure that he would win. No doubt about it, to resolve the issue, go back to the people.
5
The Brits have a good idea: if your ruling party doesn't like your country's leader, they can just vote to toss her out of office. Bing bang boom, done. Imagine if we could do that.
Of course, the catch is that the Republicans would have to vote against Trump. But they actually might, because they'd get a mulligan to choose a more acceptable leader. It's a better way of dealing with an incompetent Commander in Chief than impeachment. Perhaps the most important aspect of it is that the power of the President would be reduced, and the Legislature would be in a much better check and balance position. The House of Commons does it, and the country moves on just fine. We've only run through the impeachment process twice in 250 years. Where's the excitement in that?
I have to say, the Parlimentary process sure looks better in a lot of ways than our antiquated Constitutional way of doing things. I think it's time for a change.
10
Brexit is inconsistent with the Irish peace deal.
Reconsidering the EU means reconsidering the Irish peace. It simply can't be done any other way.
Perhaps that should be put to a vote. "Should we re-do the Irish peace deal, as the necessary price of leaving the EU?"
18
@Mark Thomason yes it seems impossible -- even technically -- to have no hard Irish border and no customs union. Hard to imagine this showstopper not being identified, pre-referendum, but in any case it was an 'elephant in the room' until far too late. What a mess!
3
The 'No confidence motion/vote' is an exquisite Parliamentary mechanism. One day you're PM, and the next day you're not. Brexit was handled poorly from the start. The government should fall.
8
The 2016 Brexit vote was close (51.9/48.1) and took place in an atmosphere of misinformation on both sides but primarily from those who promised it would bring a flood of revenue to the NHS.
To call it "the will of the people" now is absurd.
A second vote is needed now that the (highly uncertain) ramifications of Leaving are better understood and because the decision is of such monumental importance.
27
@dreamweaver -- Their lies matter more because they won?
That really does not cancel the effect of a vote being the will of the people. If lies did that, all votes would be cancelled because all politicians lie, in every election. It is what they are.
We should keep voting until the "right" side wins because it is important?
Again, with that thinking there would be no end to any voting.
7
@dreamweaver
It's the will of the people based on vote counts. And all the information was known before the referendum.
Anyway, say there is a second vote and Brexit loses, what then? Best two out of three?
5
@Mark Thomason Democracy is not a vote once and done proposition. The situation has changed, because the Leave side has been unable to deliver a deal anywhere close to the one they promised. Given that, the people deserve to say yea or nay to the actual deal, rather than the pie-in-the-sky one.
By the way, when Britain joined the EU, there was a referendum which approved it by a 2:1 margin. So if we must honor all previous referenda, that one ought to count as well.
15
Its just too bad that Brits weren't offered another choice instead of the either-or Brexit vote. Like a vote of being able to go to the EU first and negotiating a fix of the main problems of their membership in the EU with the knowledge/threat that if that didn't work than a full on Brexit vote would happen immediately after.
But, if wishes were fishes I suppose.
Cameron really blew it didn't he? As to May; I'm not sure anyone could do any better under these circumstances. If there was some super brilliant, super dynamic leader waiting in the wings the world would already know of them. I don't think there is.
12
The British experience with Brexit shows the folly of requiring only a simple majority of voters to engineer such a monumental, history transforming decision. It's quite possible that enough voters have either changed their minds or "left the scene" to swing this tiniest of majorities the other way. Regardless, the nation is pretty much split down the middle on this and that, perhaps more than any other factor, is likely the reason there is no consensus on the terms under which Brexit should take place. Cameron should have constructed this decision so that a supermajority--60%--would have been necessary to leave the EU. Then, policy makers could have had a more resolute backing which in turn would have given them more confidence in forming a Brexit strategy.
13
Theresa May, who up to the referendum was against Brexit, has been charged by the Conservatives to bring it off. Brexit was a poorly thought out shout of anger by 51.8% of Britons. Major issues concerning the difficulties of implementation have surfaced and there are no easy answers for the Brexit pols to put before the public. May's fall from power is imminent because of her inability to firmly lead on the issue. Her Brexit policy is unacceptable to Brexit zealots and to those who opposed Brexit.
7
Since her downfall is likely and her proposed Brexit plan is in tatters, May has one logical play left: propose that Great Britain stay in the EU. End of story.
12
More turmoil for Europe and a bad choice for Great Britain. Europe staying together should be the first order pof business. They sure can't count on the United States.
15
May is a likeable person and has a tremendous sense of style, but she utterly lacks leadership qualities that the UK so desperately needs.
The UK needed a leader who would have stood up to the EU bullies who played hard ball with Brexit. At this point, no deal will work better than May's bad deal, and many Tories in her party clearly see that.
The UK is a sovereign country, it should act like one! Why should it pay the EU billions in order to leave it? The deal will place the UK in a EU purgatory, which is NOT what the majority voted for. The hardball stance of the EU perfectly illustrated why 52% of the British wanted to leave it in the first place.
Get on with it already!
The UK needs a non-nonsense leader who will stand up to the EU bullies, who anyway are descendent, such as the very politically weakened Merkel and Macron. Jacob Rees-Mogg would be such as leader that the UK needs.
At this time, the UK desperately needs a Churchill but has a Chamberlain.
15
@Philly May isn't likeable in the slightest if you actually look at the policies she has helped push through. Look at Universal Credit currently, the last thing May and this government is, is likeable.
Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't want to lead because he knows there's no successful Brexit for the country. Just like Boris, he immediately rules himself out of potential power as soon as a journalist hints at it. He's not interested in a good deal, just sniping from the sidelines. He is the last person this country needs.
34
@Philly Obviously you are not living in the UK, so why would you care what happens to the people in a "no deal" UK? Come what may you will be alright, Jack.
And how do you envisage that JRM will accommodate the will of the other 48% (almost half) of the UK population? Any election ceases to be about the winner when the victory comes at such a tight margin.
15
@Philly
Churchill favored European integration. Chamberlain (and especially his brother) wanted trade based on the British Empire. The problem is the Conservatives are currently lead by Chamberlains and not Churchills.
15
Headline and article makes it seem there is a chance she doesn't get the boot. That is very unlikely at this point. I see no way she remains in her position. Article should have said it was a forgone conclusion and Britain is headed to a 'No Deal' Brexit. They will survive it despite all the doomsayers.
5
@GregP Yes but would we have voted Brexit if we were told that we would "survive"? We were told we would be better off, a prosperous nation free from a failing organisation.....but now we keep hearing, "we'll survive" or "it won't be bad as world war II".
Why are we actively making this country poorer? This government will not be looked back on with praise.
8
Mrs. May has done an admirable job in a difficult situation. It is unfortunate to see her party turn to cannibalism in it's angst about the approaching Brexit. If they indeed vote her out, I foresee a headline with the question: "Who knew Brexit would be so hard?"
101
@Kung Fu Kitty
"Mrs. May has done an admirable job in a difficult situation"?
HUH? The ever-self-serving May was only too happy tpo shove Cameron off-stage after his cheap political stunt (making Brexit a referendum) backfired bigtime.
Instead of steering a course for sanity, May became a Brexit zealot, insisting the idea was good for Britain and that she, Maysie, would force those groveling Euros to except a "tough deal". Folly of the highest order.
Now, May has bungled the whole thing, and Britain is at the brink of disastrous isolation.
The UK cannot get back what it has already lost through this pensioner populist Brexit Vote. Young people did not want it. The Europeans who have already left won't come back. The Bankers that have already left won't comeback. The Britts abroad won't come back. The train wreck has happened.
139
Yes, but Cameron said the result would be honoured.
5
@Helen, you've just described the most quintessentially British thing imaginable.
"This was a terrible mistake that benefits no one and does immense, immeasurable, and lasting harm. But we said we would do it, and a Briton honors his word, even when it is spectacularly foolhardy to do so."
1
I voted for Brexit, and even as an Oxford scholar in history, politics and economics I still get called “dumb” or “they didn’t know what we were voting for”. It isn’t true.
We had to choose between opting into a Federalist Union of Europe (the only way the E.U. could work) or being separate from the E.U. and nearly all the arguments boil down to which option you prefer. The E.U. deliberately made themselves sit between these two in shades of grey to avoid it looking like this choice throughout the last 30 years since the Treaty of Maastricht, and those shades of grey have let to widespread division within the E.U., let alone in the UK, as it sits between international organisation with little democratic oversight and a nation state.
This large nation state issue was foreseen by the Founding Fathers - the most important political text written is probably Federalist Paper No. 10, setting out against the anti-Federalists, that factionalism could be avoided in a large republic if the Federal Government was restricted to only a select number of policy areas.
The E.U. has never had that conversation about restricting policy areas. Indeed, if anything, it is the inverse of the USA - where States would usually have most power, the EU does instead. Where the E.U. would be most effective, the E.U. member states do instead.
No-one can vote to remove EU policy makers, and this combined with the above, is why the UK must leave the E.U.
59
@Josh
"No-one can vote to remove EU policy makers"
I'm sorry, but for someone who likes to wave his academic credentials around, you seem to have a poor understanding of the subject matter at hand.
The European Commission is accountable to the European Parliament which is directly elected by the European peoples.
But of course the biggest decisions are taken by the Councils of national ministers and heads of government, all of whom must answer to their own national parliaments which, again, are directly elected by their respective peoples.
As for the generally vague not-a-federation, not-an-international-organization nature of the EU: it is what it is after decades of compromise between nation states. Britain was one of them and helped shape the current EU.
I agree that a lot of policy areas and competencies in the EU are oddly dispersed, but again this didn't come from nowhere. This is where Europe's nation states have arrived after careful deliberation spanning across decades.
110
Thank you, good statement. But which contract/conditions for leaving? It has to be some way, right?
1
@Josh
Fair enough, if integration with other European nations is your personal nightmare, I fully respect your point of view and your vote
- but then Britain should just leave, "hard", under WHO rules, and stop whining about loss of privileges and economic disadvantages.
Taking decisions and assuming full consequences is unfortunately not very popular anymore these days...
125
May is an anti-Brexit politician pushing Brexit, which itself is a bad idea. Someone expected her to succeed? She was destined to reach this point.
If May had any self-respect left, she'd admit the truth: 'Brexit is stupid, we shouldn't do it, and I won't be part of it.' Then walk away.
213
@Matt: I'm amazed that she hasn't given Parliament and the Conservatives the single-digit salute and resigned. For this tenacity, I doff my hat.
The sad thing is that there is no palatable solution to this mess, and anyone who would step into Ms. May's shoes will suffer the same indignities that have befallen her. It's one thing to try to tweak the agreement set down before you, while trying to find some sort of solution, and it's another thing entirely to stand on the sidelines and throw stones. The worst outcome seems to be a hard exit with no agreement, yet that is exactly what the hard-liners seem to be pushing for. Short of another referendum that chooses to stay, I don't see any pretty outcome of this fiasco.
6
@Matt ...having dropped a microphone while an explosion rips through the background. Maybe while donning some cool sunglasses.
May simply wanted power and this was a way to get it, which is why she's so reluctant to walk away. It's very 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade'. She sold her soul to do so and even bought into the whole "Brexit means Brexit" nonsense without actually defining or clarifying what Brexit actually is, which is particularly problematic when the victory was based on appealing to emotions rather than facts because there is no clear point of reference as to what Brexit even is! I have no sympathy for her whatsoever, and in fact view her with contempt for sabotaging the country and the EU for her own gain.
There was no hope Theresa May’s visit to Brussels seeking concessions from the EU, would be successful, but her own party telegraphing that she is without parliamentary support back home, ensures that she will come home entirely empty-handed. But toppling Ms. May at this point merely gives the illusion of forward action, without actually making a substantive change that alters the trajectory of events. UK politicians simply cannot deliver on a better Brexit deal, so the only options left are crashing out of the EU or remain in the EU.
122
May did the right thing in trying to serve her country by stepping in to clean up Cameron’s mess (wonder what he thinks of his creation now?). She was always between a rock (the EU) and a hard place (UK Brexiteers). Trouble is, you can’t get blood from a stone.
143
The present chaos was predictable because the Tory hard right will settle for nothing less than complete freedom to suppress the rest of us without interference from the EU.
Brexit should be suspended and another referendum held in the light of the present debacle. Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Michael Gove should be debarred from participating and preferably locked up for lying to the electorate during the run-up to the first one.
280
@Malcolm Fraser
As an outsider looking in, your suggestion seems most apt. Is there any consensus among the populace for this even if the Parliament is hopelessly embroiled in chaos?
16
@Mimi No there isn't. The people who did vote in the referendum voted in favour of leaving and just want our government to get on with it. The problem with having Teresa May as PM is that she was a 'Remainer' so has no incentive to get a good deal from the EU as she never wanted to leave.
We should just leave the EU with no-deal and use WTO trade rules.
People calling for yet another referendum are the people who don't wish to respect/accept the fact that they lost the first one. Sorry but that's democracy - what happens if there is a 2nd referendum and we vote leave again - will they want more referendums until we come-up with the 'correct result' ?
@John Sheridan
Your democracy argument is simply false and hypocritical, and although very simple to do, I simply don't have the energy to rebutt yet another Brexiter on what constitutes British parliamentary democracy. Hint: referendum is consultative... everything that happened after the vpte demonstrates not the strength of representative democracy, but the denial of same and the weakness of the British parliamentary democracy.
Regards.
13
Britain and America may be two nations long divided by a common language, but they are now united by an inexplicable taste for political insanity.
394
@LT
That is because the British equivalent of Republicans have conned ignorant voters into voting for Brexit; lying about huge healthcare savings, lower costs, higher salaries, getting the bureaucrats out of our business, etc., etc. All lies. Now at least some of the public is awakening to the fact that the British equivalent of Republicans are about to cause a massive recession, or worse. It may be too late. We share more than a common language.
35
@LT Both Trump and Brexit have Russian fingers all over them. Now that they have a real Brexit proposal, they should vote on it. And it should be Nigel Farage's job to promote it. Where is Nigel these days?
14
@LT Hey, at least one of our states isn't trying to secede.
Theresa May inherited a mess, and has been doing the impossible to find a solution. Whatever the solution, one thing is certain: It will not please everyone, but she is trying hard as hell. This should be recognized and not boycotted. Her Conservative Party members verge on traitorous by calling this confidence vote. Who will replace her? Who will have the guts to take over the mess and not give up? UK politicians are shooting themselves on the foot, or maybe higher, by not supporting their PM at this time. Shame on them, and kudos to Mrs. May for her persistence!
8
Best thing they can do is just give up and stay in the EU. Brexit has caused them nothing but pain and it isn’t going to get better.
8
She has been given a near impossible task and failure is not unexpected. The reality is that if a vote was held today, it’s unlikely a now nformed electorate would vote to disengage from the European Union. The vote two years ago was by a slim majority. Hindsight indicates a super majority should have been engaged. “ Beware the tyranny of the majority”. Lessons for American: Initiative and referendum are not a prudent system. Our system of a representative democracy has flaws but it works.
8
They still don´t understand that most crucial terms of Brexit do not depend on anything in UK - PM, Parliament, parties, civil service to mention just a few - but on response of EU and simple tecnical conditions (Irish border). But do the bold inventors of the infamous "2 cakes in 1 solution" (to have the cake and eat it) ever care about such minor details as tecnical issues? Just oust the PM and the way to an EU-free Brexit paradise where milk and honey flow freely is open - and to Donald J. Trump to negotiate a really great free trade agreement exclusively for UK...
Anyway. They could appoint a reborn Mr. Churchil instead of Ms. May and send them to Brexit negotiations it would not change anything - quite apart from the fact that there will no time anymore for all internal procedures for approval of a "New Deal" in all 27 member states.
4
This whole idea of a Brexit vote two years ago was really flawed. People were asked to vote up or down on something that they had no details on, and had not been negotiated.
To me this is quite different than voting for people to advocate a position or policy, who have the power to negotiate best terms.
The process is flawed, and I give Ms. May credit for how she is making the best of it regardless of the outcome.
6
It is interesting to view a nation's travails from afar. The dysfunction and impracticality that appears so obvious to us is lost in a London fog of denial. Brexit may have appeared attractive to the nativists in Britain. But the EU is not interested in rewarding the exit of a member.
A new conservative PM will face exactly the same terms from Europe and a hard exit becomes more likely all the time. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
But then there is us. How can I possibly criticize another country after watching the latest episode of the apprentice. We have a president who is still trying to get elected while neglecting to govern. His vote of "no confidence" is coming soon.
19
I fear this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
If May is ousted and replaced by someone of the hard Brexit tribe who deeply dislike May's deal, the new PM will ask the EU to reopen negotiations. Europe will refuse. The new PM will then have a choice:
1) Unilaterally revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU (at least for the time being). This would buy the UK time to figure out what it wants and possibly hold a new referendum.
2) Spin a narrative in which the EU is the bad guy for refusing reasonable renegotiation demands, invoke the 'Spirit of the Blitz' and go for a hard cliff-edge Brexit.
Given that the new PM is likely to be a hard Brexiteer, option #2 seems by far the most likely.
What a nightmare.
84
@Erik What makes you think that someone backing a "hard Brexit" will want to negotiate again? I may be misinformed, but I have always thought that "hard Brexit" means o...u...t outright. Nevertheless, the word "reasonable" is in the eye of the beholder, and no matter how good the effort to brainwash the British people, no one in the UK will find solace in "freedom" if they have to tighten their belts. The UK people have a long history of not protesting or fighting very hard (if at all) for fear of losing their social status.
9
Maybe her plan was to stay in the EU all along by sacrificing herself to force the decision between a no deal Brexit and staying.
In that case, she deserves a medal.
13
Occurs to me too. Probably gives her too much credit, though...
1
@Kara Ben Nemsi
Sometimes, there's "no default" choice and I guess then it's just a total guess what will happen.
BUT that's as rare as unicorns, i.m.o.
In this case, the "default" is a No-Deal-Brexit, as all agree - and they probably don't agree on much else.
Sadly, I think we're probably PAST the point where any other possibility has enough TIME - much less enough support (from all concerned whose concurrence would be necessary) to take shape.
Yours is a "conspiracy theory," however serious you are about it. It might even be correct!
But most of the time, more straightforward logic applies, and again, I think this is such a case - The EU handled Greece in a certain way. Arguably - as with the way the US handled AIG and the rest - whether by luck or calculation or a mix, IT WORKED.
This time around, smart people in Brussels recognized that with political entropy at 1912 levels, "hardball" was the ONLY route to the EU surviving. As in all things, when there's only one viable choice, one usually (advisedly) takes it.
Many are saying that Ms. May was "outplayed." Time will tell on that one, but for me the most likely explanation for what SEEMS about to happen - NO-DEAL and an ugly divorce - is that too many Brits - politicians & permanent govt people, both - guessed wrong about their 26 "partners" resolve!
The smidgen of hope left is that those partners WILL blink ... if there are solid gold models floating around that say THEY will share the UK's pain.
1
Following Brexit from the outside, I’ve noticed the pettiness of all men in Parliament. The Brexiteer lot disappeared after the Brexit vote and PM May was the only one who took a chance to do something right. If a vote of no confidence is moved, then what? I have not seen any show of hands of who will be the next PM. The Conservative party is a bunch of cowards that feeds on chaos and are not thinking about the people they are supposed to represent.
31
Much like the American Empire and wine from a can, this won't end well.
10
Kick May out. Organise a flash referendum “stay in EU” or “no deal Brexit” CLEARLY EXPLAINING to the UK people all the possible economic and social repercussions of a no-deal brexit.
Then, if people still want out, that’s what they’ll get.
That’s the only way out of this mess.
7
Brexit and Trump are both products of elections gone wrong that could not be done over. Both nations are drifting towards catastrophe as a result of them.
56
Although I am underwhelmed by the "deal" that Mrs May has negotiated, I feel sorry for her trying to get the Conservative party to agree on anything to do with the EU, its like herding cats. I don't think anybody knows what will happen next: will we plunge out of the EU without a deal? Will we get another referendum, or delay Brexit? Is the EU like the Hotel California, "you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave"? Or is it perhaps Norway plus? Certainly we live in "interesting times", as behind the scenes Conservative MP's re-enact Julius Caesar's demise. Certainly the ides of March seem to have come early for Mrs May.
9
As an American who has been living and working in the EU for 32 years I see the Brexit as the result when citizens vote strictly for the sole purpose of their own Xenophobia, which is the real reason for this mess. I say let England have what they want. The Scots and the Irish have much more common sense and I wouldn't be surprised if they make an attempt to leave the UK.
218
@Charles Stockwell
The Irish left the UK in 1921. You may mean that diminishing band of Unionists in Northern Ireland. They have hastened their own demise, so you are right in that sense as with the prediction for Scotland. I disagree about xenophobia however. It was to be sure an element, but one amongst many others notably economic inequality and the many lies from the press and politicians as to the best way to remedy that. You also forget the nearly half of Britons who voted to remain.
15
@Charles Stockwell I think more accurately Brexit and Trump are the result of massive income and education inequalities. The lesson we all need to take from this is that inequality (of income, wealth and opportunity) can lead to the destruction of previously prosperous functioning democracies.
10
@Charles Stockwell
I’m not sure why your years in the EU should qualify you to make such a sweeping judgement on the reasons why people voted for Brexit. As one of them, and one who thought very deeply about my decision, I very much resent the constant suggestions that I must be a) stupid, 2) a xenophobe.
And by the way, recent polls show there is no more support for “independence” here in Scotland than there was 4 years ago in that referendum.
2
If only it were so easy to put an American President out of office.
123
It is!
All that is required is to hold the impeachment vote by secret ballot.
20
No is not. After the impeachment, a vote to remove must passed. It did not happen with Clinton, it won’t happen with Trump.
10
@Karen - It is with the 25th Amendment. But it’s takes loyalty to country over party and greed; something the current cabinet and congress lack.
6
The only aspect of the turmoil of the Conservative Party except is the debate in Parliament. Much more interesting at the BBC, but watch it now in the last days. The chaos shows that in Britain people through its representatives do care about whether people want to stay or leave Europe. This is alas is a done event ,and poor Mrs has finished their non-reign. How does a Parliament can decide to leave out Europe? I don't think people know - with so many people and views. The idea is that the people should decide - but that seems a difficult question, no? If they don't agree we will leave, and the business lobby say it will be disastrous. But this is a different question. Parliament is alive and democracy. There is no democracy in Strasbourg where it was attacked yesterday. I spent a six months making a film half-comic about the moribund democracy in Brussels. Perhaps Britain will be turn into two countries with Scotland , or Ireland and the North Ireland. But the real identity of Britain comes from parliamentary democracy. I hope so. I believe in Europe and when Churchill spoke in the 1940s, he thought parliamentary would exist in Europe. I hope so. I think so. Chaos isn't always a bad thing.
1
...oh Jesus make it stop...
Yes, it’s reached that point. Only a (possibly mythical) higher power or a few missiles to purge the country in one vast fiery nuclear apocalypse, can get us out of this constitutional, political and existential mess.
7
Let’s go with Jesus rather than nuclear destruction
12
If you are going through hell, keep going...
In truth, I was expecting this vote a year ago after Mrs. May's disasterous snap election. The looming deadline of an ill planned Brexit has everyone panicking and although I think she gets a C for overall effort, she has tried, the lunacy of this exit must end. Call a vote, call for new leadership, and lets get the hell out of Brexit.
36
Self-indulgent loons playing pointless childish games. What difference will a new leader make? The EU will not renegotiate, and there is not enough time to start a new plan (Canada+ or whatever), or probably to organise a second referendum (not that it would achieve anything but ore discord). Even if she wins her deal is dead. If parliament blocks a "no deal" exit, the only options seem to be ask for an extension to the exit deadline for more time and then negotiate the full trade deal before exiting, or withdraw the Article 50 notification. It is a pity the deal is not going forward as it would have been interesting to see if the EU parliament and the other 27 states would have ratified it in time or at all.
6
The EU has always had to make brexit as paintul as possible to dissuade any others from seeking divorce. Too bad May's too afraid to say it.
20
@sf
I don't agree with you. The EU has made real efforts to negotiate with the UK. But, since the beginning, the EU fixed some clear limits: for example, no compromises on the freedoms of movement.
The problem is that the UK wanted to cherry pick: only the good things of the EU, not the others. And most brexiteers sold the Brexit on these premises: that it would be all honey and milk without effort. Predictably, this failed: May's deal is simply too much for the remainers, not enough for the brexiteers. May and the EU could have negotiated something very different, it would still not have been good for too many to vote for it.
23
@SJP
I agree with you SJP.
May negotiated a compromise and should be commended for her efforts. It is a genuine and workable compromise which allows both sides to further negotiate details of exit.
But, no one in UK wants to compromise. The choice is and will be: this deal, no deal or remain. Looks like first is out - 2 choices left. Divided parties, divided country.
4
There is no cherry picking why should it?
It should not be forgotten that had not Gove done a “Brutus” on Boris, Theresa May would never have become Prime Minister. Since being gifted the job she has made a series of errors, starting with triggering article 50 without a clear plan. But for Brexit She would have gone following Her election campaign characterised by her inability to distinguish vote winners from vote losers (we’ll take your home to pay for your nursing care, a free vote on bringing back fox hunting) and charisma free leadership style. The disastrous campaign did highlight however her “my way or the highway” micro management style, If MP’s or the press had really thought about her “Brexit means Brexit” mantra they might have realised it made as much sense as “cheese means cheese” and been less surprised at her sabotaging David Davies Canada plus (a plan that the EU were largely happy with) with her Brino (Brexit in name only) chequers plan that the EU turned down. Perhaps in days past a Prime Minister would do the decent thing and resign. May has shown (briefing EU members that She was going to pull the meaningful vote ahead of her own cabinet) that she has no concept of honour, if she has any loyalty to the Conservative party (which I suspect she hasn’t) she would go and give someone else the chance to redeem the Tories. She won’t and the humiliation and embarrassment will continue.
7
Brexit? Brexit is important not just because it's about the UK leaving the EU (or not) and the terms under which this is done, but because it shows the relative ease in which the incompetent leader of a constitutional monarchy, here the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, can be removed from office when he or she stuffs up. Same thing in Oz, in NZ, and in Canada, all part of the Commonwealth with a hereditary monarch as their titular head.
Now compare that to the Russian Federation and to the United States of America, both republics, both led by presidents.
It's effectively impossible to remove the leader of the former, as one would expect in a totalitarian dictatorship ruled by a ruthless despot. But it's also effectively impossible to remove the latter during his term of office because it requires the agreement of two thirds of the US Senators.
22
@Colenso The Party could remove Vladimir Putin overnight with great ease, just like they have done with others before, if he decided to veer away too much from what is deemed reasonable. Only you guys in the world's biggest democracy - very sadly, to be clear - seem to be stuck with Trump for another 2 years, although he was involved in many things the likes of which brought others before him to the proverbial gallows (Nixon anyone?). There is a certain amount of irony in this.
17
And for those reasons, I cry at least once per week. The United States has a least two more years of governance by train wreck.
14
Parliament did not “vote her in contempt”, they voted her government in contempt. Very different.
49
Finally. Get her out, call a vote to get the grown-ups of Labour in, and let's ACTUALLY fund our NHS instead.
Just like May's template, anti-union deregula'Tory Thatcher, she and Cameron have proven no help to people in REAL need.
And despite (or because of) all the wealthy tax-evading magnates and foreign flat-hoarders and Crown jewels, there are MANY in the UK in need of even basic food—not much unlike our "richest" "developed" "free world" country.
8
@SR Labour doesn't have policy on Brexit either; Corbyn and McDonnell want to get all the way out as they need to get away from the state aid rules so they implement their Communist nationalisation agenda. People in real need need a prosperous economy; Corbyn might be able to squeeze a bit more tax out of the so-called rich (who already pay the greatest proportion of the tax take ever) in the very short term, but then everything would go to pot. Just look back at the 70s when similar policies drove the UK to near ruin.
8
Why is is that that small factions in Britain have the means to oust a good leader, whereas large factions in other countries (US included) are unable to muster the political support to oust a bad leader?
45
Dear Madame Prime Minister,
You can't have your cake and eat it to!
You had a very good deal and agreement, and for what the underlying reason, you chose to break it.
You're fired!
Donny
I read somewhere recently that President Obama's first Commandment to himself was "Don't do Dumb".
Britain's Prime Minister, Theresa May - no Obama, it's fair to say - has done her absolute utmost to get some form of reasonable "Deal" to try and satisfy Britain's bizarre decision to leave the European Union.
And now, her own Party - stirred-up by chauvinistic zealots, who make no secret of hating "Foreigners" - is attempting to stab her in the back, just as she's trying to deliver on the almost impossible mission she was given.
Dumb? For sure!
202
@Ireland's Eye
Agreed
May negotiated a compromise and should be commended for her efforts. It is a genuine and workable compromise which allows both sides to further negotiate details of exit.
But, no one in UK wants to compromise. The choice is and will be: this deal, no deal or remain. Looks like first is out - 2 choices left. Divided parties, divided country
11
This was such an epic mismatch between the absoluteness of the authority of a referendum and what it decreed — “BREXIT has to be achieved, but what is it, exactly? — that it’s not too big a surprise that no one has figured it out, two years in.
I give credit to Ms May for doggedly pursuing what she thought was the right thing to do, but I doubt that she would change the minds of enough MPs in the remaining time.
Her premiership was a product of the referendum, making it especially inappropriate for her to do anything that explicitly nullifies it, such as call another referendum or revoke the Article 50. The people will have to unambiguously denounce their own decision from the referendum, and be ready to bear the heavy cost thus far and into the future for that to ever happen. They say the opinions are changing somewhat, but 51-49, 55-45, 60-40 won’t do.
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@J Park
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that under the British Constitution (I) a referendum is merely consultative/advisory, and (ii) Parliament is "sovereign" as regards taking decisions.
4
@Ireland's Eye As for the one in 2016, the parliament did pledge to honor it. Do you think it reasonable and possible to conduct a referendum, then say "it was just advisory, after all, so we will ignore it"?
1
@J Park, if it is clearly predicated on false notions and clearly bad for the country as a whole (as opposed to, say, the success of a particular political party) then it clearly should be ignored. The people were lied to, clearly, and and the withdrawal should be rescinded.
3
If ever a political party had a talent for eating it's own it's the British Tories. Sadly, the last time such an open rebellion occurred was during the premiership of the last (and first and only other) female leader, Margaret Thatcher. In the current situation, if the government falls and if Britain fails to leave the EU then it won't be because of the Labor Party opposite but rather the reactionaries in the Mrs. May's own party. It's indeed rare to witness a more hard working and well meaning and even tempered politician than Theresa May. Regardless of how this all plays out, I am firmly of the opinion that she has done the best job possible in a most untenable situation. In order to carry out the mandate of the BREXIT referendum and NOT have a hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland is a task that would befuddle the wisdom of Solomon. I haven't heard ONE plan from anyone that would allow for the UK to leave AND not interfere with the passage of goods and people between the inhabitants of the Irish island. It's a profoundly difficult matter and a touchy one at that. NO ONE wants to open that can of worms again after years of relative peace in Ireland and it appears to me that Mrs. May has done her best to accommodate all sides, leaving none an absolute winner but negotiating a give and take. IF she's ousted by her own members then they deserve to have the HORRID Jeremy Corbin as the next Prime Minster of the United Kingdom.
79
@ManhattanWilliam You're correct on her approach to Brexit but in what way is she well meaning? She decimated the police in her time as Home Secretary and accused many of them of "crying wolf" when they needed help.
Also...Jeremy Corbyn, not just horrid, but HORRID. The United Nations just a few weeks ago released a scathing report on May and her government with unacceptable rises in poverty. If she is well meaning and Corbyn horrible to you, it says a lot as to why we voted Brexit.
4
When I moved to the UK almost 14 years ago, I expressed to an acquaintance that compared to the US, which was then halfway through the calamitous era of Dubyah, British politics was downright boring.
My attitude forever changed 2-1/2 years ago!
32
Could be a blessing in disguise for May, who currently faces a no-win situation.
Perhaps the country will consider a new referendum once other alternatives have failed, the consequences are better understood and some of the falsehoods of the first pro-Brexit campaign have been revealed, like funding for the national health care system.
26
@Look Ahead Brexit is the will of the voters. A new referendum is tempting, but what then? If Brexit loses, would it then be best two out of three? If Brexit wins again, then best 3 out of five?
One downside of a do-over is that few corporations will make capital investments in a country whose trade, immigration, and economic policies are subject to change with a referendum.
Some of the falsehoods of the first pro-Brexit campaign were revealed before the referendum, and well known to people who didn't get their news from the side of a bus.
9
@Look Ahead
Please don't overlook the reality that under the British Constitution, any Referendum is merely consultative / advisory - Parliament is "sovereign" as regards decisions.
7
@Ireland's Eye We don't have a written Constitution, we have laws enacted by Parliament. Referendums are technically 'advisory' but in this instance Parliament determined that the referendum result would be respected. Sadly
1