From the article: "Chrystia Freeland, Canada’s foreign minister, disclosed the second case, and during a news conference in Ottawa on Wednesday she urged China to let the legal process unfold."
Does Ms. Freeland's statement refer to the case against Ms. Meng? Or the cases against the two Canadians? Or both?
This is what a world leadership vacuum looks like.
Like any lesser power caught between two of greater, Canada is a repeated rape victim of two perpetrators - a police officer and a bandit. The police keeps the order but occasionally rape. The bandit, well, does what bandits do. Except lately the bandit, seeing the advantage of being an officer of ‘law,’ is trying to be the new sheriff in town..
The CCP needs bargaining chips. But Canada needs the US trade. She will be extradited and these poor Canadian hostages will have to endure months of justice totalitarian style.
It is worth noting that while Ms Meng has had consular access and legal representation since her arrest and has now been released on bail and is living in her Vancouver mansion nobody appears to know precisely where the 2 Canadians are. She may claim to be proud of her homeland but any impartial observer would call her country's conduct shameful.
I am however not clear on what she has been charged with. The allegation is bank fraud. Any reasonable understanding of a fraud would require the defrauded party to have been harmed in some fashion (no harm, no foul). I have not seen any allegations that the bank involved lost any money on any of these transactions. It would appear the charge relates to her deceiving them into entering into a transaction that benefited Iran when they did not wish to do so. Is that fraud? If so how was the bank harmed? It strikes me as an attempt by the US to impose extraterritorial jurisdiction on countries that were not a party to the Iran sanctions. I am hopeful that the minister of justice will declare the warrant politically motivated and throw it out.
2
You would think this extradition hearing could have been completed ASAP. Why the delay?
The US has not yet filed an extradition request. They issued an arrest warrant which has been dealt with by granting bail. Canada can not deal with extradition until the US requests it. The US intent may be to not request extradition because they know their case is weak. Far easier to just harass Ms Meng by limiting her movements. Canada can not release her until either the extradition is dealt with or the time limit expires at the end of January. In the meantime China harasses Canadians because it plays well domestically even though they know Canada has no choice but to let the process play out.
2
Thanks for the clarification. Maybe Canada should just announce to China and the US they don’t want to be stuck in the middle and deliver her to the US immediately. See how the US handles that.
How quickly too many Americans forget IranContra when Saint Ronald arranged for Iran to get American weapons by means of a third party even as it was lecturing the rest of the world to not sell to Iran because it would be immoral. Meanwhile Saint Ronald who said he would never buy the freedom of Americans who were being held hostage did precisely that .
So, if Canada traded to obtain the release of 2 Canadian hostages it could point to the precedent set by Reagan.
Since Canada is already considered to be a security risk, what is there to lose. And Trump's hostility to an important ally is having its predictable consequences. Tinkling on your allies has consequences.
in any case Trump has made the extradition a political rather than legal matter. He and his government have abused a treaty and abused Canada.
Also Canada will not extradite a person unless it is assured she will get a fair trial. There is sufficient reason to believe that this will not happen.
4
The only thing to do is for Canada to detain another 2 Chinese. Then keep escalating until one side runs out of people.
I have feeling that there is a flaw somewhere in that strategy, now if only I could pinpoint where ???
3
The rule of law should ‘TRUMP’ the propensity of the two countries, China and the current US admin.’ to do away with such nuisances as law and order. It’s time the two countries stop using Canada as the venue for their ‘trade ping pong’ match. Regardless of the current scenario in the USA, there’s a long history and tradition of respecting the all-important judiciary and the legislative branches, even if the executive branch did not always agree with the other two! Perhaps, all the more reason for the Reps and Dems to show some bipartisanship, once and for all, for the institutions of democracy that they ALL have all sworn to protect and ‘profess ad nauseam’ to be its biggest purveyors.
Far be it from me to expect sanity to prevail in the US capitol anytime before 2020, but one can hope certainly and perhaps naively, can’t he?!
Whatever the Cdn. Judiciary decides MUST BE respected without any strong-arm tactics by the two Power-hungry leaders/regimes. All this scapegoating of Cdn. leaders just for an elusive ‘better deal’ or petty arrests by the Chinese needs to stop. There’s plenty in Canada’s arsenal that can be used for leverage, given the huge Chinese diaspora that lives in Canada and the ever-growing list of visitors and hopefuls wishing to land on our shores from the Far East.
The rule of law should ‘TRUMP’ the propensity of the two countries, China and the current US admin.’ to do away with such nuisances as law and order. It’s time the two countries stop using Canada as the venue for their ‘trade ping pong’ match. Regardless of the current scenario in the USA, there’s a long history and tradition of respecting the all-important judiciary and the legislative branches, even if the executive branch did not always agree with the other two! Perhaps, all the more reason for the Reps and Dems to show some bipartisanship, once and for all, for the institutions of democracy that they have ALL sworn to protect and ‘profess ad nauseam’ to be its biggest purveyors.
Far be it from me to expect sanity to prevail in the US capitol anytime before 2020, but one can hope certainly and perhaps naively, can’t he?!
Whatever the Cdn. Judiciary decides MUST BE respected without any strong-arm tactics by the two Power-hungry leaders/regimes. All this scapegoating of Cdn. leaders just for an elusive ‘better deal’ or petty arrests by the Chinese needs to stop. There’s plenty in Canada’s arsenal that can be used for leverage, given the huge Chinese diaspora that lives in Canada and the ever-growing list of visitors and hopefuls wishing to land on our shores from the Far East.
1
How does China explain their contemptuous theft of our intellectual property and their dealing with our enemy Iran? Meanwhile if we do any business with democratic Taiwan, the Communist People's Republic of China with their self-proclaimed president-for-life goes nuts.
5
Ms Meng has not been charged with espionage, she has been alleged to have committed bank fraud. So your question about intellectual property theft is irrelevant. As to dealing with the USA's enemies, since Iran is not China's enemy and she works for a Chinese company your comment on that matter is equally irrelevant.
I guess this is the first time Canada has been sucked into direct involvement in the current vortex of doom at the White House. How embarrassing. All Canada can do now is play it straight. Fortunately, its justice system is more than up to it, and Meng Wanzhou has beautiful Vancouver to be confined to, with her family.
2
Meanwhile, Canada is just complying with the U.S. concerned the extradition of Ms Meng. Two of our citizens have been detained (illegally by China), while Trump shoots off his mouth.
And what of China? They're tiptoeing around the issue so as not to offend Mr. "Tariff."
When is this long international nightmare going to end? So sick and tired of Trump!
5
If something were to happen to the two, or more, Canadians in fascist China, Canada should start stripping “Chinese-Canadian” citizens of convenience of their Canadian citizenship, and deport them en masse to China. Start with those who showed up in Vancouver to protest the arrest of the Huawei CFO.
3
@True Norwegian I am sure Americans are well-practiced at that, having interned tens of thousands of Japanese-Americans during the WWII. Or perhaps you learned from the Germans who stripped millions of German Jews of citizenship?
We Canadians, however, are less practiced in the art of racism and fascism.
3
@Donriver
"Almost 22,000 of the approximately 24,000 people of Japanese descent living in Canada were removed from their homes and distributed to various locations across Canada." http://www.sedai.ca/for-students/history-of-japanese-canadians/world-war-ii-internment/
Canada is stupid to take Trump's side against China.
No matter how much of our bidding Canada's does, Trump will continue to kick Canada every change he gets.
Canadians had better figure out fast that sadly, China is a better friend and ally than is the United States.
NO ONE should align itself with the U.S...unless they have no other choice.
1
Poor, civilized Canada - caught between two dictatorial gesticulating bullies, and not even a prayer either one will come to see reason.
6
Of course they did and Americans are next. The Chinese don't mess around. Time to vacate China.
2
Shame on Trump and Canada to use police powers to arrest someone over a trade dispute.
Trump wants to forbid all countries from trading with Iran. It's not against Chinese law to trade with Iran, but Trump wants to force China to do so.
4
Are these the only two Canadians arrested, or the only two high profile Canadians? There are a lot of Americans and Canadians teaching English in China, and right now I'm glad I'm not one of them.
2
Being detained in Vancouver is very different from being detained in China. In Canada there is rule of law and you can rest assured you will not be tortured into signing false confessions, beaten or starved to death, or imprisoned for life over phony charges. I am very concerned for the physical and mental well-being of these two Canadian citizens given China's track record for human rights. She is "proud of her motherland"? This is why one should never set foot in a country with a repressive regime. Your freedom and your life are at their whim.
6
Send one of the Clintons to talk to them, they were always eager in the 90s, even handing out cash as they got permanent MFN status and US sponsorship into the WTO. Any human rights concerns, the primary issue considered for MFN renewals, were apparently no longer a concern.
Trump doesn't seem to know where he's going, and his yes-men don't appear to have any better ideas. The "hold my beer" approach won't get you anywhere without a guiding plan. That's what Trump and co. are trying to cover for so dismally in Saudi Arabia even stating it's all about corporate windfalls from the monarchy. America sold out from the top.
1
Canada needs to realize that it's diplomatic cloud is weak. It's novice leader cannot delegate a dispute between China and Canada.
1
I’ll take the professionalism & political savvy of Trudeau & Freeland over the current US administration any day.
3
As a Canadian, I wish we don't get caught in Big Power politics. I advocate withdrawing from extradition treaty with the US: it has been politicized beyond recognition by the current US administration, and we want no part of it.
9
Won't a situation where the West and China are arrestting each other's people reduce our trade deficit? As an American, I would not be comfortable setting up a factory in China for fear of possible arrest.
I expect U. S. companies do a great deal of manufacturing in China, and that very few Chinese companies manufacture in the U. S.
Are there alternative low manufacturing countries. Or is China the only real alternative.
The best suggestion that I have heard so far came from a Mexican ex-ambassador to China:
Canada can slow down or restrict the approval of visitor visas granted to Chinese citizens. This will have a direct effect on the monied elite.
It is not something that the Canadian government needs to announce. Just quietly implement. There are two Canadians being held. Add two weeks of waiting time for all visa applications. If more people are detained by China, or the detentions drag on, then increase the wait time.
New Zealand, Britain, Australia, France, Germany and other friends of The Rule of Law should feel free to join in.
13
Isn't China's real contest with US, not Canada? Why not arrest Americans then? Canada is an easy target but with US you tread lightly?
In the East Asian power match between China and US, China also didn't confront US as much as she went after and harshly punished countries like S. Korea that appeared in any way to side with the US.
Flex your tyrannical muscles with weaker countries, but be ever gentle and diplomatic with the big guy. Such cowardice and double standards do not command respect for China. To the rest of the world, China just seems to be lashing out on other countries while being obsessed with the US.
1
Justin Trudeau is way over his head when dealing with the Chinese. He shouldn't have kowtowed to Trump, after the US consider edCanada a security risk (Aluminum and Steel). And now, having arrested Ms. Meng, Canada has 2 Canadians arrested in China!
6
In what way can honoring an international treaty be considered kowtowing? If the charges are politically motivated, as seems likely, the extradition should be denied but it is Canada's duty under the treaty to examine the case.
Trump's entire campaign against Iran is just a political payback to his wealthy pro-Israel campaign supporters. The Obama-era agreement with Iran was a good one, and stopped nuclear weapon development exactly as it was supposed to. Trump is deliberately attacking Iran now, to appease Israel and his wealthy donors. Iran poses no threat to the USA.
5
As a Canadian, I do not know which is more tiresome, having America as an angry neighbour that does not like us or respect us, or having these equally angry and humourless communists from China nipping at our Canadian heels with their own shady business deals.
Sadly, our toothless parliament in Ottawa seems unsure which of the two bullies to bow to in any given week. Many Canadians have lost track.
So what is the average Canadian to do? Well, both of these bullies respond to pocketbook issues, so one could start by purchasing locally sourced Canadian food and products. There is precious little that a Canadian can purchase from a dollar store that is not made by some woe be gone exploited Chinese worker, so avoid those as well. Also, to those Canadians that live close to the border: do you really need to queue for fifty minutes at a border crossing in order to save seventy-three cents on Tide detergent? Really? Best turn back and shop local. The jobs you help maintain here may be that of a neighbour of yours.
Canada is not disliked in this world. There are better nation/states we should be trading with. Australia, New Zealand, the UK are but three that come to mind.
7
It was reported that the Huawei executive was detained at the request of the FBI.
The timing of the arrest, at exactly the same moment that Trump was meeting with Xi Jinping, was designed to send a message.
Did Trump order this action to increase negotiating pressure?
Did deep state actors do this to embarrass the President?
It was not a chance occurrence.
3
China does not comprehend the concept of an independent judiciary, but then neither does President Trump who erroneously said as part of a trade settlement he could stop the US legal process against Ms. Meng.
Canada is following the proper legal process in following the US justice department request to extradite Ms. Meng to the US.
While on the comparison of the Chinese leadership with President Trump, it is also fair to say neither accepts the notion of human rights.
44
"China does not comprehend the concept of an independent judiciary, but then neither does President Trump who erroneously said as part of a trade settlement he could stop the US legal process against Ms. Meng."
I expect Trump may be referring to the President's Constitutional Pardon power which should not violate judiciary independence.
Perhaps the arrests by Canada and China send the message that doing business between the West and China is risky. As an American, I would not want to travel to China to open a factory for fear I would be arrested for some undisclosed reason. How comfortable are Chinese executives in travel to countries having extradition treaties with the U. S.? How comfortable are Canadians and Americans with traveling to China or countries that will extradite to China? What impact will the arrests have on business, and by extension exchange of intellectual property with China?
1
Just to mention: Ms. Meng arrived in Canada on purpose on the same day that Mr. Xi and Mr. Trump met in Argentina.
She was stopping over before flying to Mexico City, which would have forced her to cross US airspace, which triggered the warrant. This was purposeful.
Which means Canada was just caught in a trap between two major powers.
Was it a way to lessen Canadian influence in Asia, where we've been growing with TPP? Was it a way to tell us we've been getting too big for our britches? Or was it really just a way to make us a new Cold War country, scoring points against the US without risking any real damage to themselves? Was it because of the Khasoggi WhatsApp messages, where they talk about Canada like it's a promised land, a safe place for all people?
It stinks any way you look at it. We're still going to be the True North, and as long as we stay true to our own values we are going to make it through this. We might look soft as powder, but it's hard as diamond under that ice.
33
@C
Can you think of any other country that would allow itself to get involved in an international extradition proxy war without hesitation or complaint?
That's why Canada is involved.
1
This was entirely predictable after Trump freely admitted that the Huawei attest was a political rather than a legal matter. Trump says he would intervene with Canada if he thought it would help the US-China trade deal (“certainly the largest trade deal ever made,” by the way). So a) it was a political arrest, b) the Canadian criminal justice system can be manipulated by the US President, or c) both. What a disaster.
I thought western democracies did not hold political prisoners.
“We do bad things, too.”
- Donald J. Trump
33
@Mike
Why are you believing Trump that his was "political"? Trump will say anything about anything if it serves his narcissism or his bottom line.
@Steve
This was made because China traded with Iran, which is legal in China but violates US laws.
We should not be arresting citizens of other countries for trading with Iran.
3
@Mike Whether the Donald thinks the arrest is political or not - both the Canadian and the US legal systems are "rule of law" operations, and they will proceed according to the rules and the facts. It would be difficult to turn off at this point and will get harder as it gets further along.
I hope the judge releases Ms. Wanzhu at her extradition hearing. It seems from comments made by Trump that the US request to detain her can be reasonably viewed as a political tactic to pressure China. I don’t understand why Canadians are being detained in China when it is clearly the US that caused her detention.
38
@Trento Cloz
Canada arrested Ms. Wanzhu!
@Trento Cloz
Pawn comes to mind!
@Trento Cloz This is the point to consider. It is up to the Canadian judge to sort this out. And you know that a lot of time and effort is going into this case. I see Ms Wangzhu being returned to China, and through proper legal means. Stay tuned.
By arresting Ms. Meng in Vancouver and not in another country, (the arrest warrant was issued in August), Donald Trump intentionally involved Canada. This was no accident.
This is the same country that has complained over Trump's steel and aluminum tariffs placed on the grounds of "national security." Further infuriating Canada would be to intervene in an extradition.
Trump is despicable. And his advisors Navarro, Ross, Bolton, especially are reckless.
62
As a Canadian, my first instinct is to assist my US cousins. But after two years of Trump’s attacks on Canada and lies about Canada, I’m inclined to say let’s focus on getting our own people out and let the US fight its own battles.
This relationship has been a one way street for too long.
48
@Mimi
This was not instigated by Trump. This was triggered by treaty after an arrest warrant was issued by the Justice Department. Trump does not control the Justice Department, much as he'd like to.
3
"Trump does not control the Justice Department, much as he'd like to."
Not yet!
2
I hope we don’t have to pick sides. One country is led by an authoritarian despot who bullies its friends and wants to be ruler-for-life, and the other country used to be Red China.
5
What does a Chinese bail hearing look like?
2
Trump should never have weighed in. The Chinese are seizing Trump’s unfortunate, ill timed and inappropriate comments to suggest this was a conspiracy with Canada. The Democrats should be all over this, but they are too incompetent!
1
And yet the NY Times sees fit to use this headline next to this article:
"What are China, the U.S. and Canada fighting over?" This is not a battle Canadians are fighting. Canada is following strictly legal avenues to expedite Meng to the US at the US request. This is a pure American vs China trade (& possibly security) war with Huawei. Canada, in helping the US expedite their wanted Chinese CEO in Vancouver, is caught in the crosshairs between the 2 countries.
Canadians now have 2 of its citizens detained mysteriously in China with threats for more damage to Canada if it doesn't release Meng immediately. The US Gov't & media needs to do more for its friendly northern neighbour than pretend Canada is complicit in any way in US-China trade & security. Just as it would do were these 2 hostages American citizens.
8
China arrests anyone without a notice on drummed up charges. Their judicial system is not independent, it is a political system to settle the political and economic conflicts. It is Trump who threw the monkey wrench into their economic system. May be China should have convinced the Russians not to collude with Trump, so that their economy keep humming with Democrats in control of White House. I don’t agree with Trump just everything he does but on China trade, I agree with him.
2
This was inevitable from day-one that this Chinese lady was arrested. China's move was to arrest either an American or Canadian. Tit for tat. Of course they chose a Canadian which is the safer choice.
7
Is Canada becoming a Trump puppet? Looks like it. What a disappointment. Thought better of Canada. Not anymore. Sad.
1
@Doremus Jessup
Why are you attacking Canada for following an extradition treaty signed not with Trump by with the US government? Do you not understand that Trump is not the same as the United States Government? That he is not king or, as with Xi Jinping in China, lifetime Paramount Leader?
12
Seems Canada is the only country in this exercise that abides by rule-of-law. By treaty (=law), Canada must arrest and hear the US case for extradition - no political interference allowed. But Trump is willing to 'intervene' for trade gains (=extortion), and China is willing to incarcerate innocent Canadians to encourage Canada to break the extradition treaty (=extortion). In the future, please leave us out of your extortion games.
17
If Trump's regime says arrest a Chinese diplomat in Canada, would Canada do it? If Canada wants to arrest anyone under the demand of the US, then Canada is not acting like an independent country and she is acting more like a puppet. Canada is making a mistake by arresting a Chinese businesswoman, Meng, without clearly defined crime evidence. A lot of people probably will suffer along with that error.
1
@DL
To quote a reply by Steve (from Harlem) to a different comment:
"Why are you attacking Canada for following an extradition treaty signed not with Trump by with the US government? Do you not understand that Trump is not the same as the United States Government?"
The Government of Canada is doing what is required by law, given an international treaty we have signed with the U.S.. The U.S. would do the same for Canada if someone wanted for a crime in Canada were to be caught in the U.S. at our request. Both countries extradite to each other.
There will be an extradition hearing in a Canadian court, and if the U.S. successfully makes its case that this person broke U.S. law, she will be extradited to the U.S. - else, Canada will release her to return to China.
2
Canada will follow the rule of law, just as it has in this case. I’m surprised by the inability of the CCP to understand this. More likely, the ignorance displayed is willful, and directed at the Mainland China audience.
If the hypothetical diplomat you mention would probably have diplomatic immunity and would therefore, not be arrested.
@Shailendra Jha
This Trump government wants the US Attorney General to do what the president wants, not following the law. Trump set up a hearing of the murder of a US reporter murdered in a Saudi Arabia embassy in Turkey and not allowing the CIA director to attend. The director reported that it was the Saudi prince who gave the order to kill, and yet she was not allowed to testify. With this kind of background, do you still think we have a normal government? It is Trump's government.
A few years ago, at the airport in Chicago, my Canadian husband and I, a Mexican citizen (I have double nationality now), were separated to board our flight, even thought we had already gone through immigration. My husband would just go straight to the plane presenting his boarding pass, and I would need to answer (again!) questions to immigration authorities. My husband stayed with me and right away was told he did not need to be in that line. When we asked why (we knew the answer and wanted just to hear it), the immigration official responded: "Because we don't mess with Canadians" My answer to that utterly ridiculous explanation was: and you mess with Mexicans!!?? I guess China did not get the memo: you do not mess with Canadians!!
4
Anyone who thought the cold war ended was a fool. Communism has a death grip on countries it rules. It kills off challengers, and creativity and innovation along with it. When the Chinese began to see Russia decline in the 80's they decided to adopt capitalism while keeping social changes to a minimum. In the process, members of the politburo grew rich while working their "surfs" to the bone and stealing everything that wasn't nailed down.
Now, they strut around the world thinking that they won the cold war. Perhaps, we should have loosened the reigns on MacArthur in 1952.
1
Thirty-five million Canadians are wondering why we are doing anything at all for the US. China will get back at us by buying up all of our real estate in Vancouver and Toronto.
12
@Henry's boy,
They'll do that anyway. What's your point?
4
@Henry's boy Because 75% of out exports are to the US. That's reality. So as untasteful as it is we have to ride this one out and hope the US electorate comes to their senses.
3
@Henry's boy
Only Trumpy Bear can save those Canadians.
Do you think Commando can command enough of China's attention? Do you think US Progressives, or any Western collective thereof, can command enough of China's attention? For certain, President Trump and the like collective of pragmatic global leaders have enough rapport with China to be an honest broker.
Over the past few days, the Trump administration and Chinese government have shown a dubious commonality:animosity toward the rule of law. In the case of the former, it's hardly surprising given how Trump bases diplomacy and foreign policy not on the rule of law, but past episodes of The Sopranos.
As for the latter, it has revealed its true colours as well. At least with Trump, we know he can't remain president, but the same cannot be said for the current Chinese regime. If there was ever a compelling argument for banning Huawei from Canada forever, this is it.
10
trump is playing games with China, and includes Canada in its crosshairs. So China detains Canadians as a result of what is obviously the U.S.'s war games? If Canada had not arrested Ms. Meng, adhering to our treaty with the U.S., would trump have turned his little gun on Canada?
I'm just so mortally tired of this man.
22
Let's not take away the focus from the highly illegal activities of Ms. Weng and blame Trump or Canada. Ms. Weng is obviously guilty of corporate/state espionage. These Canadians in China are political pawns of the Chinese. What will our next move be?
Should we remove ourselves from China in various capacities?
Absolutely yes. They need us more than we need them. Chexit.
12
Strange. Two Canadians arrested in China because they are a national security threat to China. Tariffs on aluminum and steel because we're a national security threat to the US. I never realized before what a menace Canada is to the world.
58
Don't expect China to play by rules. The communist government will go to any lengths to get what it wants, at any cost. Even if it means torturing people from the last bastion of freedom and human rights - Canada.
14
@V Nagarajan
How is it teaching Trump a lesson to have innocent Canadians detained? I'm sure Trump couldn't care less. He gets to poke at China and have Canada pay the price; meanwhile, Trump also hits Canada with highly unfair tariffs. Canada loses both ways.
14
@indisk
And don't expect trump to play by the rules. Trump will go to any lengths to get what he wants - even it it means shutting down the government and contaminating the rule of law in the extradition process. And isn't he above the law? or so he seems to think
1
@V Nagarajan
and at the expense of 2 innocent Canadians.
1
What do you expect from a Communist State? This country and the rest of the West needs to wake to that reality and start making the hard decisions that OUR beliefs, OUR freedoms are not for sales, are more important than the 2+ Billion consumer Market. Which to be honest, is really just a golden carrot that the Communist wave in front of us as a way to submit to their demands.
12
She is guilty, but diplomacy should have been used instead...As a Canadian, I am sickened by our lackey attitude to this Trump initiated response...given the Americans are no longer our friends or allies!
17
Diplomacy was utilized, she was detained after flying through Canada regarding her banking crimes with the terrorist nation of Iran…
1
Canada is merely caught between two superpowers behaving like school children. Let's hope this ends well, because hope is all he have left at the moment.
Who will lead anymore, now that the US has decided it no longer wants to?
11
The arrest of Ms Meng was long overdue. Ignoring her flaunting of the law previously was politically motivated.
11
I have the distinct impression that every time a Chinese citizen is arrested abroad, the Chinese government reacts by detaining a random citizen from the arresting country. Is this in fact the case?
5
It it were ordinary Chinese citizen, Chinese government wouldn’t care. But this is one of their own, so it is different.
8
At the end of the day, this is an extradition case governed by a treaty. China's reprisal detentions, while abhorent and without legal merit, won't change things.
12
@V Nagarajan
This grotesquely misaligned comparison smacks of Chinese partisanship, if not propaganda. Are you seriously suggesting the arrest and detention of a foreign national announced to and covered by the international press following the lawful procedures of the Canadian government is comparable to kidnapping, much less the secretive kidnapping murder and dismemberment of a man by a theocratic tribal monarchy?
3
@V Nagarajan
"At the end of the day there is very little daylight between what happened to the Chinese lady in Vancouver and what happened to the Saudi journalist in the Saudi consulate in Turkey"
Mr. Khashoggi was killed within minutes of being lured to the Saudi Embassy in Turkey, dismembered and his remains were probably incinerated to remove any trace of his existence.
Ms. Meng is allowed to stay in one of her Vancouver mansions (she has a $2million and $15 million one), with her family, allowed to go out between 6am - 11pm every day to go wherever she pleases, spend time with whoever she wants , whenever she wants and basically live her life.
The Saudis did what they did based on their hatred of a free press - The US had her arrested based on rule of law, which is what Canada is following too.
So yes, its very easy to see how their situations are almost identical.
/s
2
I am surprised that China has not arrested US people working there. Why pick on poor Canada.
8
It was the US that issued the arrest warrant, Canada is being punished for adhering to an international treaty. China has chosen to pick on Canada because they are scared of the US. It's as plain and simple as that.
Canadians and Americans now travel to China at their peril.
Time to bring those supply chains out of China, and back home to North America.
30
@Frank
Agree with Frank.
Build factories in Central America and create jobs there so you won't have the ilegal inmigrants flow
6
So now Canada can see how China responds when they perceive weakness. Canadian Court grants bail to Weng and what does China do? Arrest a second Canadian. Did you think they would send you flowers for being so gracious to the person charged? They do not respect weakness and will demonstrate that disrespect any chance they get. Go ahead and refuse to Extradite and see what good things happen. You either play hardball with China or you do not engage with them at all. Granting bail was seen as weakness and this is the proof of it.
13
@GregP Independent judiciaries are just that, independent. That, my kind and well meaning friend, is a rock solid strength.
6
@GregP Unfortunately, the rule of law can't be changed on a whim to show "Strength". A country can't simply bend the law to play "hardball".
Some countries and world leaders still understand that, and more, their citizens demand it.
11
Why the Canadians, or anyone else, would risk provoking China by honoring a Trump Admin request to detain someone for allegedly violating our arrogant sanctions -- I don't get it. This administration has insulted and belittled Canada since Trump Inauguration Day. They should give her back now. China is going to win the conflict with the US; smart nations are reconsidering their alliances and making moves.
23
@Ed Canada was following international law agreements.
19
@Ed - Perhaps it is because she was arrested for breaking the law. Perhaps Canada did it because it was required by treaty and law. If you thinks the laws are wrong, work to fix them. Ignoring them should be at everyone's peril, including the Trump administration and ours.
None of this was done because the US insulted Canada or US sanctions are arrogant. That would be childish and petulant.
Does that help?
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In 2011, JP Morgan Chase was accused of violating U.S. sanctions with Iran and paid a fine of $88 million to settle the matter.
During the investigation, the CEO of JP Morgan Chase, a white American named Jamie Dimon, was not arrested. In fact, in 2012, President Obama openly praised Dimon on a television show, The View.
Fast forward to 2018, and a Chinese company, Huawei, is being accused of violating U.S. sanctions with Iran. The Chinese CFO of the company was arrested while in transit in Canada.
Compare the difference in treatment between JP Morgan Chase and Huawei. How can anyone believe this is a simple matter of law-and-order?
The lack of objectivity is apparent even in this article. Canadians being arrested in China is described as a "punitive campaign against Canada" while the coordinated effort from the US and Canada to arrest Ms. Meng in contradiction of precedent does not even ring an alarm bell?
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@Sarah Johnson
Are you saying the $88 million fine was not an admission of criminal activity? JP Morgan paid the fine and admitted fault.
Huawei, on the other hand, has not set foot in the US because she knew she would be arrested, so under international law, she was arrested in a country with whom the US has an extradition treaty.
That how law and order works.
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@Sarah Johnson
" the coordinated effort from the US and Canada to arrest Ms. Meng".
The coordinated effort you refer to is coordinated only insofar as Canada is fulfilling its treaty obligations. Canada's legal action in this regard hardly merits the pejorative tone of your comment.
JP Morgan was bound to honor the US sanctions because they are a US company. Huawei has no obligation to honor them because they are not a US company. Since the US is not able to force their sanctions on a Chinese company they have dreamed up this highly suspect fraud charge as a way of punishing the company for defying their will. The Trump administration is no stranger to perverting laws for political reasons as they earlier demonstrated with the steel and aluminum tarrifs.
Everything between countries is politics. Only naïve individual will believe it is commercial only.
Canadian government should know the consequence of detaining and trying to extradite a Chinese citizen to US based on US domestic laws. It was expected that China will retaliate. Chinese government revised the NGO (non-profit organization) laws in 2017 to prevent illegal activities against Chinese government in China. Thus, it has put many foreigners in China with activities on the border line as potential targets for negotiation and trade, a possible collateral damage between US & China trade war.
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@Usok I am very interested in your comment about Chinese politics & Western naïvete. I love the New York Times comments because they're filled with learned people who willingly share their experiences with the world. So, I humbly ask for a greater explanation of your comment. I'd really like to know if this is how Chairman Xi's administration &/or Chinese citizens think about this situation. Is this retaliation for Ms. Meng's extradition for to her breaking Iran sanctions laws? If so, am I reading correctly that foreign NGO workers could be detained & used as pawns in trade negotiations? As retaliation?
If I'm wrong, please let me know because this seems to be a big difference between countries in negotiation styles.
Have every confidence in Canada and their diplomacy; they've been successfully dealing with a superpower neighbor to their south since about forever. Dealing successfully with the Peoples Republic is a foregone conclusion.
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Timing is perfect for Individual-1 to take a political hostage, get trade concessions for the US from China, then let Meng go to appease them. Meanwhile, two (maybe more in time) Canadians pay the price in a Chinese prison. Oh, and NAFTA-2 gives the US veto power over Can-China trade. With friends like these...
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Say what you like about the Chinese government, but they are predictable - first, gin up the local media and whip up the anti-foreign sentiments the party uses to allow a repressed people to let off steam. Then detain a former Canadian diplomat. Next, instigate a boycott of a Chinese-made US-branded product. meanwhile encouraging anti-foreign protests and running footage of them on the evening news. Finally, detain yet another Canadian citizen on spurious charges.
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This blatant and announced reprisal is a public evidence that Huawei is not a normal business venture. It does poses a security risk, at minima because China considers its executives to be above the law of other nations
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Your president just announced that he would be willing to release Ms. Went if China agrees to a deal. How is that not evidence that the request for her detention is politically motivated.? Your country has lost all credibility internationally. I think it is reasonable to conclude that the charges in the US are politically motivated. Trump has ensured that your country is no longer a beacon for “the rule of law”.
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@Trento Cloz
Donald is not my president, nor is US my country (see location, I'm from 'rathole' Brussels), and I share your criticism of him.
However, I don't think Trump by himself can end a separation between the executive and the judiciary banches in the US, separation that I don't think practically exist in mono-party China.
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Thanks to Trump now it's not safe for any Canadians or Americans to even be in China.
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