The arrest is valid, legal and hits at the heart of China's Elite. Their economic system has operated at a corrupt level for so long, while those who have benefited from these corrupt practices - the Chinese Elite and their families - get to roam the world taking advantage of The Free World's benefits.
When the Elite realize that their corrupt business practices will keep them prisoners in their own country, they might be inclined to change the business practices of that home country.
10
Apparently it's also against Chinese law to sell billions of arms to Taiwan. Are we going to see American executives arrested for that? If so, where will this lead to?
11
China and Chinese companies flagrantly steal our intellectual property without penalty and violate sanctions imposed by us on third countries. American are tired of this and want them to stop. It's hurting our country's security and wealth and we have a right to retaliate if they refuse to do commerce honestly. If they want to do business with us, let them follow rules that allow for a fair playing field for all sides. May I remind everyone that China forces American companies doing business there to play by their rules. We should think enough of ourselves to demand the same.
12
Lets start at the beginning. anyone who has set up shop in China to corner the Chinese Market, has sold their souls to China in order to be allowed in country and has done so with hopes of cashing in. Apple I am speaking directly to you! And Cash in you have, but having done so apple has also stashed Billion's off shore to avoid paying the US Taxes on their profits.
Now bare in mind Apple is a US born company.
If China wishes to Boycott Apple they will only be spanking themselves as apple employs Thousands in their factories in china.
Now if China wishes to boycott Chinese Nationals Traveling to the US, two things will happen. Tens of Thousands of seats will open up in State colleges around the country to allow US citizens to take those seats. Thousands of pregnant Chines women in their Third trimester will not be bearing new US citizens in Hospitals all over Diamond Bar and southern California.
So my RX, boycott Apple and travel to the US.
Please!!!!
7
Ms Meng is today's Helen of Troy, who was the ostensible reason for the Trojan War, which really was about economic matters and access to the Black Sea.
Today China's rivalry with the US is about technological dominance.
If this plays out like the Trojan war, woe to us in the US.
2
The point is that she is a Chinese citizen (confirmed officially in China). She did not breach any Canadian laws, but being arrested in Canada, and no bail due to that she is too RICH? Oh, my...
6
@A Canadian in Vancouver no matter if you are rich or poor if you break the law you should pay the price. It's all about greed. She has 2 multi million dollar homes in Vancouver, I do not feel sorry for her she is in jail . We have 100s of people living on the streets because of chinese imported drugs, money laundering also chinese prostitutes in spas etc. Her son going to school in Boston is a a communist spy?
2
@A Canadian in Toronto Talk to Julian Assange and Edward Snowden about trying to evade US laws.
1
If the typical NYT commenter would actually read these news stories instead of viscerally reacting as members of a so-called resistance, they would see the charges involve fraudulent documents filed with US banks. You cannot do that action even if you ship stuffed Lion King toys to the U.K. It was a stupid, arrogant action of the CFO. If proven, she goes to jail. Having been chastised, you can now resume your ill-informed ranting.
4
In the end, national interests are trump any economic considerations. China had no shame in arresting and holding foreign execs on its soil, perceived of violating its own rules and laws, however unaccepted or un-understood they were elsewhere in the world. In fact, this has been happening years ahead of this incident. So it is hypocritical now for China or any of its citizens to scream "war" in return. This, as the case is also with tariffs.
1
I think that this story is not up to the usual high standards of the New York Times.
Why was this 'pretend' sentence commenting on Steve Jobs and Sheryl Sandberg in the story?:
"That makes her corporate royalty in China — the equivalent of someone like Sheryl Sandberg, if Ms. Sandberg were also the daughter of an American tech pioneer such as Steve Jobs."
...and why in the world quote an anonymous comment by one unidentified individual?:
"“During the Sino-U.S. trade war, let’s not buy any American products and let’s not travel to the United States,” wrote another internet user."
Quoting a single anonymous source's electronic posting is frankly idiotic. It is an attempt to give validity for a single thought - which with the vagaries of humans on this planet could be anything in the world, true or fantasy.
Please, better editorial oversight.
6
Once again the hawks in the US are conflating two issues. It’s true China steals technology and that should be the prime focus, but America cannot dictate to other countries it’s foreign policy. At one time the kinder gentler and more respected American approach exemplified by Bush 41 would have persuaded through diplomacy and entreaty to assist with arguments it was for the common good of the world. But that was before the selfish, isolationist bully boy dictates of the “America First” man child America has regrettably installed and supported with a blatantly corrupt GOP. So now the world should not assist America in its hegemony. For Canada in particular I find it wholly objectionable that a country bullied by obscene characters like Trump and Larry Kudlow should cooperate with their schemes. They want America First” so Canada should operate on “Canada First” and curry favour with the soon to be largest economy in the world and where the future lies in terms of trade with a nation that will far outstrip the US in the years to come and offers Canadians a far better economic future than a bullying neighbour that continually and arbitrarily imposes illegal tariffs on it and is totally undependable, treaty or no treaty. The US has shown it’s not in any way a “friend” of Canada. I would take my chances with China any day. Give me the despot with greater potential gain rather than the unfriendly and unpredictable despot next door.
3
@Cranford
So...this was an international agreement that China SIGNED with other countries. Please know your facks. I hope she's locked up for decades. China is a lawless country and they need to understand that outside their borders, there is something called laws that's inconvenient for them.
3
A full investigation should be done for all PRC nationals seeking a visa to the USA. We don't want your corrupt money buying up US assets.
5
I would feel better about this if this snatching was part of some grand plan, some clever strategy to gain the upper hand on China to rectify their cheating and stealing of IP.
Instead, it is likely part of a disjointed, unplanned, happenstance event initiated by the right arm of our government which, like the left arm, is not connected to a central brain. This is what government-by-gut-instinct looks like. Obama was accused of being timid, when in fact, he subjected decision to a deliberative process of analysis, while Trump employs a dart board to effect policy.
3
The TPP was an abomination the Obama people put together, in haste, to add to Obama's thin "legacy". it involved twelve (12) countries and how on earth can the specific needs of a country be anything but diluted in such a non-agreement?
The US has successfully negotiated the new trade agreement with S Korea, is far along with Japan and the EU, has renegotiated NAFTA with Canada and Mexico, and is negotiating with the countries, individually, that were in TPP.
In the end, it is a MUCH stronger agreement between the US and its trading partners, and as we sign S Korea, Japan, the EU, the USMA, China will realize they are the odd man out, and will need to become a legitimate member of world trade, something they have not done, since the WTO has not enforced its OWN REGULATIONS with China!
So essentially Trump is taking it upon the US to accomplish, and I applaud him for this.
3
As a person well versed in the Telecommunications "Arts" I can say unequivocally that Huawei started off in the business by copying, if not outright stealing, the tech of Cisco, et.al. They got very good at doing this; and they've gone on to building products every bit as capable as the Cisco's but here's the key point. They did it more cheaply. They did it aided and abetted by American Capitalists who, in their striving for access into Chinese markets, were less that secure in the manner in which they handed over manufacturing tech.
This is how China has ascended, is ascending, the tech value chain. Steal, copy, make equivalent products - as well as better ones - and do it more cheaply then hustle said products on the world market. The West could counter all of it excepting the cheap part. Which in the business world is the fundamental decision point.
This is not to say that Huawei isn't inventing and designing their own stuff. There comes a point when you become adept at manufacturing high-tech; where you start developing your own ideas. This is stage China is now at; and I have nothing against this.
But what China now needs to understand is we're not against their rise in global power. At this point we just want you to stop stealing our stuff. If you don't we will not buy it. Plus we will pull our manufacturing contracts from your domestic plants and go elsewhere, wiser for the experience. Period. End of discussion.
John~
American Net'Zen
6
I'd be happy if China could arrest some of our CEOs for what they've done to American people. Especially Wall St CEOs
5
Finally using the Law on oligarchs. China should be aware that the real world has laws and rules and if you don't want to play by them or abuse them we will use them against your travelling elites and their families. Time to join the family of humanity or we take back the invite.
4
How can this arrest in any way be justified? I’m not defending Iran or China, but rather the rule of law. She did something in a China that is legal in China. How can she then be arrested in Canada at the behest of the United States?
And for those who wonder why this matters, just wait until the next American is arrested in a foreign country on - ahem- Trumped up charges. They now can say, “hey, you did it.”
5
Heey China, (in particular the ones that can beat the firewall and access the New York Times, which is not allowed in China) I don't think Bill Gates or Steve Jobs would use their daughters as a front to commit illegal business activities. Like somebody using their children to commit a crime to give it a more innocent look.
4
The arrest was inspired by the Saudi killing: Turkish embassy vs. Canadian airport; the crown heir said he didn't know, so does Trump. Is the Trump Administration turning into a Saudi royal family?
2
I am amazed that China hasn’t started arresting top US business men on spying charges.
3
She is also most likely a Communist Party member. Huawei was built on subsidies, protectionism and intellectual property theft. It is high time the US stop worrying about face and start aggressively defending its national interests. The last two decades has been the most pathetic display of weakness on the part of the US. Corporate interests have dictated the relationship between the US and China and this needs to stop. If they boycott Apple they will be putting their own workers out of a job.
5
This arrest is not about China, trade imbalances or theft of IP. Meng was arrested for violating United States sanctions against Iran.
The US unilaterally withdrew from the nuclear deal in May so US sanctions on Iran are now back in place. Every executive from a company doing business with Iran - whatever their citizenship or whether the company is based in Canada, China, Japan, the EU or anywhere else on the globe - now face the prospect of extradition to face jail time in a US prison.
A trade war indeed,
1
1. How many persons have they arrested and imprisoned for frauds committed during the Lehman Crisis ? How many PPT have they checked for inaccuracies ?
2. Using the standards of the prosecutors in this case, how many members of the Trump family would be at risk of being arrested?
3
If America played this card, it means America has no card at all. Seriously, if America what to win the trade war, arresting a poor woman is not the way to go. It is like high school girls' drama.
Somewhat ironic that the Chinese ministry of foreign affairs demands an explanation for Meng s arrest while no explanations were offered (or very late) for the detention of thousands of Uighurs, HK book sellers and countless other individuals who were locked up by the Chinese government for dubious reasons
3
If Mao Zedong is still alive today this kind of un-Chinese thing would never going to happen. China under Mao was a much more disciplined nation and society. People may live poorly but much more orderly society. I love Mao era's China. Deng Xiaoping may make China richer but a country without any moral values. It is sad for China's future. China needs another revolution to be carried out by another revolutionary leader with Mao's determination and ideology. Rich and famous are not good for Chinese people. In September, 1975, Mao composed a very emotional for Zhou Enlai in which Mao expressed the hopeless and leaderless China after Mao and Zhou are no longer around in China. Mao felt China's future was very gloomy and hopeless without true Communist leaders like him and Zhou. I think Mao's prediction was right. Xi Jinping is not a communist, a revisionist. I witnessed the Sino-Japanese War, the Long March, the WWII, the Civil War and witnessed the Red Army entered Peking in January 1949. What a difference today and yesterday. Is this China? Meng Wanzhou would not last for more than two days in 1966. A criminal should be put away as long as possible. Her father too.
1
The sheer level of ignorance, illogic, jingoistic blustering, sour grapes and xenophobia demonstrated in the bulk of these comments must cheer US neocon propagandists and their eager enablers in so many media outlets. (I'm looking at you NYT aka "official sources say.) The issue here is US extraterritorial enforcement of unilateral Iran sanctions (something few countries agree with the US on - see Europe) and the wisdom of dramatcially arresting a top executive of a company accused of this behavior. But the top rated comment does a 180 into Vancouver real estate prices. The second comment just makes what are really still much unsubstantiated claims regarding "rampant" IP theft (something the US used to do from the UK when it was developing -look it up) that are increasingly irrelevant as the Chinese working on their own and investing heavily out pace the rest of the world in important fields like A.I., quantum encryption and green technology. (Say BTW didn't we use to bemoan a "brain drain" when developing countries sent their best students to US universities but these days with China it's IP theft. Got it!) The third comment just claims all Chinese are criminals and the country is "rotten to the core". (Gosh! It would be an absolute service to the planet to start a war with those fellows wouldn't it?) Pretty clear level headed well stoked mob foreign policy making process you got there. This level of bile and ignorance would be laughable if it wasn't so terrifying.
6
Let me correct the first sentence of the piece:” the illegal detention of...”
Here again, the United States is trying to enforce its laws extraterritorially.
That IS illegal, unless the US feels that the ‘rules based international order’ applies to everyone else, but herself.
2
I think it's a major error to think that China can be pushed around like this.
3
"Chinese social media has lit up with commentary on American wickedness. ..."
Interesting. The Chinese have been arresting Australian, Norwegian et executives with the aim to blackmail their companies into concessions. Now that the show is on the other foot, they are squealing.
4
"While foreigners may be interested in whether Ms. Meng was traveling on a Chinese passport, “for the Chinese public, it doesn’t matter. We know she is the daughter of Ren Zhengfei. That is enough,” "
I don't understand this. Was she not using a Chinese passport?
1
Deng Xioaping once asked why is it that American's allies are all rich and their enemies are all poor.
Meanwhile prize ass Kudlow says this will have no effect on the China/US trade negotiations. It wouldn't be surprising if the Chinese arrested a few US executives. There are undoubtedly a few where they could find cause. Perhaps as well to avoid visits to China for the moment.
This diplomatic fiasco reminds older folks of a similar situation in Germany after the construction of the Berlin Wall by East Germany in 1961. In retaliation, the West German government prohibited the purchase of East German goods and importation to West Germany. West German businesses found an alternative way. East Germany would sell its products to the Netherlands and German businesses would buy them from there.
If the purpose of the sanctions is to force regime change in Iran, one should consider the result of similar efforts in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria.
2
John Bolton was aware of the arrest but did not inform president Trump (paraphrasing) "such incidents happen often and can't bother the President with all details." Bolton is committed to regime change in Iran according to his statements to the MEK Congress in July 2017. Bolton is also aware that Trump imposed the sanctions without the consent of Congress and that the withdrawal from the JCPOA was done in the absence of verifiable evidence that Iran was not in compliance with the terms of JCPOA. However, there is verifiable evidence that Iran was in compliance.
China, Russia, the UK and the EU continue to adhere to JCPOA authorized by Security Council resolution 2231 to prevent nuclear weapons development by Iran. For the EU an unstable nuclear Iran would pose an existential threat so it strongly supports the JCPOA.
The EU Blocking Statute defines adherence to these U.S. sanctions against Iran as illegal and will fine companies that violate the Statute.
Huawei is a major player in EU telecom markets and would be subject to EU laws including the Blocking Statute.
What Bolton may be seeking to do is to establish legal precedents for the legality of the U.S. sanctions against Iran through court actions in non-U.S. jurisdictions such as Canada. If the subject of the extradition is Huawei trade with Iran in violation of U.S. sanctions in violation of Security Council resolution 2231, Canada should refuse and send Meng home to China.
6
@Vid Beldavs Canada has an extradition treaty with the US. the issue isn’t a potential violation of sanctions but violating banking regulations. She is accused of falsifying records to coerce US bank into violating US sanctions. If a US executive does the same in China they would be liable under Chinese laws as well.
3
One more commenter that did not bother to read the story. She filed fraudulent documents IN the USA in response to US bank inquiries. If proven she goes to prison. Her reasons do not matter.
3
Ms. Meng apparently assisted circumvention of US attempts at sanctions upon Iran. Fortunately for her, Trump will not adjudicate her extradiction, but a Canadian court. So there is a semblance of impartiality that Trump could not possibly claim.
The bigger issue is not Canada but how the World will interpret the matter. If the World views Ms Meng’s actions as a peccadillo, as simply ignoring excessive American attempts to run other peoples’ lives, the matter will further isolate the USA as a rogue nation. That will strengthen China’s hold over international commerce, and force companies to use their foreign operations to conduct business no longer possible from the USA.
4
@John Brews ..✅✅ You have it backwards - The world is APPLAUDING this action, as the US has CLEAR evidence of Huawei conducting illicit business with Iran, in violation of agreed-to sanctions.
Please get off your Trump bashing and realize this has been brought forth by the US DOJ, not Trump. Watch how this plays out - China is finally getting what it deserves, a slap down to it's illegal activities that have gone unchecked by the WTO and several US administrations
3
@John Brews ..✅✅
What about violating US banking laws requires “impartiality”? The president is required to enforce our laws.
As for the US getting involved in other countries affairs; we ignored North Korea’s development of WMDs, hows that working out for the world? President Obama ignored ISIS and Syria, how many hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children have died as a result they f that inaction.
Personally, I would prefer ignoring the Middle East, China, Africa, Russia, Venezuela, Etc. Not sure our doing that will make the world a better place.
2
The US and Canada have made their point and China has been served notice. Ms. Meng should be immediately released. Nothing else can be gained by holding her any further.
3
Corruption and dirty dealings are the modus operandi for many Chinese companies. As long as they don’t undermine the power of the CCP they can get away with this behaviour. Unfortunately, many of these firms don’t realise that such behaviour is not tolerated in most developed countries
8
@Kris I was once told by a Friend of mine who was born in China that the Chinese have a saying as it relates to business dealings. (Paraphrasing here) " There is no shame in cheating when doing business, only shame when caught cheating" So it would appear someone was caught, and now there is shame !
4
It's becoming increasingly tiresome to hear Chinese people complain that the US is determined to "stop China's rise." China is doing a good job of that on its own by imprisoning over one million Uighur people, by engaging in rampant industrial espionage and trademark theft and by imposing a draconian surveillance scheme on its citizens. Furthermore, Meng's arrest is not something the Trump could stop if he wanted to - she had a warrant issued for her arrest 4 months ago. The fact Chinese officials think this should be a matter for bilateral talks instead of an American court illustrates clearly they have no understanding of an independent justice system and the rule of law - at all.
8
President Clinton’s deeply-flawed reasoning to normalize trade relations with China, support WTO membership, and grant Most Favored Nation status in the 90s amounted to awarding bad behavior and shooting ourselves in the foot. He surmised it would encourage the PRC to evolve into something more akin to a liberal democracy. It did no such thing. Even worse, it strengthened and emboldened a regime antithetical to American ideals and at cross-purposes to U.S. geopolitical interests — and facilitated China’s eviscerating American manufacturing through dumping, IP theft, and state subsidization of industry. The “New World Order” seems to be the rise of authoritarianism at the expense of nations who play by the rules.
6
It's such a ridiculous for this kind of arrest happened in Canada. And it doesn't make any sense for Canada, an independent country arrest the third country citizen, who has been claimed by so-called violating of the US sanction to IRAN, which is not international recognized rules by just obeying the US's instruction. With precedent of this case, is it possible that any country can arrest other country's citizens just because of violating laws in its country via entering or transmission? Where is the Human Rights? How can US use the human rights as weapon to attack other countries while, US itself violating as if he is the justice side.
5
Simply put, this was a shortsighted hostage taking by the Trump administration for negotiations leverage. He is mortgaging our economic future for the sole sake of ensuring that he comes out of the 90 day truce with a win of "bigly" proportions. Tariff war will continue. Retail investors will get hosed. Consumers will be forced to pay for the tariffs.
2
We had a treaty with Iran that every credible nuclear expert in the world confirmed they were compliant with.
Trump is a total toady to the Crown Prince of Murder Inc. who needs to demonize Iran so the Saudi Royals can continue their corrupt hegemony in the Middle East.
So Trump trashes the treaty designed to moderate Iran's leadership and facilitate Iran's return to the modern world, which they experienced decades ago despite the CIA-installed Shah of Iran's brutal tyranny.
Obama's calculation was smart: Iran's treaty compliance is easy to monitor, restoring Iran's oil production stabilizes global prices and dilutes Saudi dominance, and opening Iran to the world again reinforces Iranian democracy and weakens the Ayatollah. Opening up Iran would be a boon for Western economies facing slow growth.
EU nations and China see Iran, with restored oil revenue, as a cash rich customer with massive infrastructure and service needs. Trump's reimposition of Iran sanctions has forced EU and Asia to jerry-rig an alternative financial mechanism that sidelines the US Federal Reserve global banking system.
Now we arrest a Chinese business icon allegedly for work arounds with various major banks, including Wall Street, to do business with Iran, which began when sanctions were eased and before they were reimposed by Trump.
The signal to China is we're aggressively escalating a self-destructive hot trade war.
Our new motto is E Pluribus Stultus, "Out of many, stupidity."
14
It might be beneficial if all those who post comments about China stealing American intellectual properties would study the history of China. Unfortunately most people don't even know much nor care much about their own American history to take the time to study the history of one of the world's greatest and longest surviving cultures in the world. For many years, Western countries including Japan occupied many areas of China and treated the Chinese as interlopers in their own country. Maybe its just payback, or maybe the Chinese have more intellectually to offer than we realize. Much that we take for granted and use today had been developed in Ancient China many centuries ago.
6
@Victoria Francis
History does not justify lawlessness today. China doesn’t get a pass because western governments did bad things. Or do you support punishing communist today for what MAO did decades ago.
3
The law of every country should be limited to it‘s borders and it‘s inhabitants. China doesn‘t support the meanspirited US boycott against Iran.
As now, where the US forces European companies to end trade with Iran, the hegemonial US overreach is disturbing. Not to say that Chinese hegemony would be better... US law is not the law of the world.
I hope Canadian justice works independently.
5
@Tom Boss
She was in Canadian borders when she was arrested and apparently violated Canadian law regarding fraud. She shouldn't have gone to Canada.
3
@Tom Boss
Canada and the US have a treaty requiring Canadian courts to adhere to legitimate violations of US law. The issue at hand concerns a violation of US banking laws. That is why the arrest warrant was issued and that is why Canada detained her.
3
@Bill
So Canada was following Canadian law which requires them to adhere to treaties they made with us. So she violated Canadian law. Otherwise she couldn't be arrested.
If someone commited a crime in Canada and then was in America, and Canada asked us to arrest that person and return them to Canada for prosecution, a treaty would obligate us to do so if our legal system made a determination that they were reasonably the party. Of course, that person could fight the extradition and could win. I suppose Canada has similar laws that this executive could use to fight the extradition. Of course, it may be expedient to ask Canada to drop the whole thing as a favor to Xi, Trump's friend. We'll see what Trump does.
1
We had a treaty with Iran that every credible nuclear expert in the world confirmed they were compliant with.
Trump is a total toady to the Crown Prince of Murder Inc. who needs to demonize Iran so the Saudi Royals can continue their corrupt hegemony in the Middle East.
So Trump trashes the treaty designed to moderate Iran's leadership and facilitate Iran's return to the modern world, which they experienced decades ago despite the CIA-installed Shah of Iran's brutal tyranny.
Obama's calculation was smart: Iran's treaty compliance is easy to monitor, restoring Iran's oil production stabilizes global prices and dilutes Saudi dominance, and opening Iran to the world again reinforces Iranian democracy and weakens the Ayatollah. Opening up Iran would be a boon for Western economies facing slow growth.
EU nations and China see Iran, with restored oil revenue, as a cash rich customer with massive infrastructure and service needs. Trump's reimposition of Iran sanctions has forced EU and Asia to jerry rig an alternative financial mechanism that sidelines the US Federal Reserve global banking system.
Now we arrest a Chinese business icon allegedly for work arounds with various major banks, including Wall Street, to do business with Iran, which began when sanctions were eased and before they were reimposed by Trump.
The signal to China is we're aggressively escalating a self-destructive hot trade war.
Our new motto is E Pluribus Stultus, "Out of many, stupidity."
9
Do I understand correctly that the arrest is related to violations of Iranian sanctions prior to 2015, which of course was about Iran’s aggressive engagement in developing nuclear weapons?
Also, the relation of Huawei to the Chinese state makes the issue about the Beijing regime itself, violating its own sign-on to Iranian sanctions, way back, presumably because being a client of Iranian oil is more important than Revolutionary Guard dellusions about a new caliphate.
To pose all of this as about the trade war, when it’s literally a matter of Ms. Meng being in a Vancouer airport relative to a longstanding warrant, is propaganda which should be spotlighted widely, despite the childishness of Trump’s trade war.
SOMEONE, wake Trump up to the potential of multilateralism to allow the WTO to resolve all of the U.S.’s proper complaints about Chinese unfair trading practices.
Let’s pack up this silliness, get back to normal business, and solve our global problems like adults, with decent and admirable multilateral means.
After all, stupid warrior mentalities prevent the multilateralism necessary to cool Hothouse Earth.
The focus is mostly on the unfavorable aspects of our relationship with China, but that leaves out all hard work and smarts they put in to make our lives cheaper and easier with a variety of services and products, the money they invest in the US and the money they lend the US via US treasuries they buy.
If and/or when that support disappears, possibly all of a sudden, it's going to be a huge .... change.
Today it's the heady thoughts of trade war, of new freedom from our bondage to debt powered luxury consumerism, and at last a journey to new lifestyle of self sufficiency. But tomorrow the reality may pretty gritty.
3
This is a fine example of what happens when the US finds itself on the "wrong" end of competition in a free market.
They invent charges and use a corrupt legal system to destroy the competition.
Even the sanctions against Iran, which are the basis for the allegations, are illegal.
So the US is using an illegal law to charge someone who may or may not have broken a US law while not even being a subject to US laws outside the US.
The US is illegally extending its law to rest of the world outside US borders.
It is a basic principle that the US quotes again and again whenever others consider such a move, that the laws of a country end at the borders of the same country.
In today's Animal Farm this does not apply to the US whenever they need to get rid of some competition that is too good for the US to compete in a free market.
This is also what the 3rd Reich did and as for the US it is not an invention of Trump, this is based on a law that was passed during the first Clinton administration.
Never ever believe the US when they talk about freedom, human rights or fair trade.
5
@Thomas
It is absurd to think that the U.S. doesn't believe in fair competition. China has gotten away with stealing other country's IP and subsidizing companies to compete against other global businesses for decades. It is long since past the time for China to understand those actions will no longer be tolerated. This is a warning to China to begin respecting the rule of law or risk relationships with the U.S. The case of Iran is a complicated sideshow to benefit the Saudi's, the Russians and oil companies. The U.S. gave the world the Internet for free. We helped rebuild the world after WWII. We allow your students to study at our elite universities. The U.S. has economic interests just as China. When China thinks it can impose 40% tariffs on American made cars and think that is Ok, well it is not. It is also not Ok to steal our intellectual property and then throw up a factory in Shanghai to produce a copy of the product for half the price because they pay nothing for labor. Ever wonder how Chinese phones look like Apple's? Trump is not addressing this issue properly and should have never pulled the U.S. out of the TPP but he is a puppet of Russia, which is a short term issue. China's big problem is it's culture is now based on greed and immorality for which they have not had to pay a price. It's greed is illustrated at every tourist location in the West, it's protectionism and by its theft of other's ideas. China has to evolve or face the consequences. I hope they do.
1
I understand the concern the US government has with the aggressive drive towards hegemony displayed by the People’s Republic of China, but on the basis of what international laws does the US think it can dictate to individuals of the PRC how to interact with third countries, Iran for instance, or whether or not to use encryption undecipherable by the US National Security Agency? Okay, I would understand for certain matters to be serious enough to constitute a casus belli, but dragging folks into a US court? On the basis of what? Surely, this kind of senseless behaviour plays into the hands of China.
2
@Reinhard Neuwirth
She violated US banking laws by lying to US banks to get them to violate US banking laws related to Iran. The arrest isn’t related to Iran per se; she’s is charged with falsifying banking records to get US banks to launder cash for Iran.
3
Some in the Trump Admin actually believe in taking hostages in trade negotiation. Yet, he is afraid the house of card stock market would come tumbling down. In the mean time, some in his admin have had the inside knowledge of the arrest and have begun - probably with their financiers - to sell in the stock market starting Tuesday all the way to Friday, profiting handsomely, at the expense of the poor sips whose 401K is fast becoming 301K.
America doesn't need China or Huawei to destroy this country. Should people go to China? Chances are they would have the same chance of getting arrest than before, which has always been a possibility. So, this is more hysteria than news
2
Here's what I heard at an international conference in Europe. "The real reason is simply that Huawei uses a system of encryption that prevents the NSA from intercepting its communications. A number of governments and secret services in the non-Western world have begun to equip themselves exclusively with Huawei."
17
@Julio My understanding is that the problem is the reverse - that Huawei products give the PRC a backdoor into communications. The NSA may or may not be able to intercept communication between parties using Huawei, but if you don't want government listening in - First Amendment and all that, you definitely don't want China listening in!
2
I already commented on the reason for the arrest, but in terms of general trade and theft of IP, etc. the US used to do the same when it was an up and coming country once upon a time. Every developing country has done that. I do think it's time to stop calling China a "developing" country - it's not entirely accurate but the way to bring it to respect your idea of IP isn't through bullying.
In terms of government, I think democracies, or representative democracies, are a better form of government than most. The people have to have a voice in how they are all governed.
While everyone in a democracy has their own set of biases, collectively the US people (which should represent the US government, although that's not entirely true) have no ill will against the Chinese people. Likewise, I think the Chinese (or Russian) people have no ill will against the US people. But the Chinese and Russian governments are not democratic. I think it's largely fair to say that any view that the US government has towards the Chinese represents its (US) people, but you can't say the same about the Chinese government position. This is a problem.
In terms of trade, I think we should be grateful that the pollution that used to exist here in the US now exists in China instead. We should stop being so consumerist and money driven. Nonetheless, what we want from China is fair trade which won't happen as long as the country is governed by a rich elite.
1
@RamS
Sure the U.S. (and many Western powers) did what China is doing now (theft of I.P., territorial grabs like the S. China sea) IN THE 19TH CENTURY. (Things like state sanctioned bribery, also done extensively by China, were still openly used in the 20th century though that seems to have stopped).
Should the U.S. behave similarly? With its (still) overwhelming economic and global military power (how many overseas bases does China have?) it could quickly seize vast amounts of territory and force very punitive trade agreements on nations it couldn't directly confront (an oil blockade of China would very quickly destroy their economy).
I don't think anyone wants to return to a world like that, where the strong dominate the weak. Yet if you allowed the second largest economy in the world to continue behaving this way, that's what you would be permitting. And when (not if) China becomes the largest economy, heaven help us if it keeps using these tactics.
1
Until May of this year GE was selling oil pumps and Boeing was selling aircraft to Iran. Trump's escalation of Iran sanctions, over the objections of the EU, made many companies 'criminal' in the eyes of U.S. domestic law.
Domestic legislation that criminalizes international commerce is a perquisite of the world's pre-eminent economic power. Enjoy it while it lasts.
15
97 comments (and counting), yet only a handful of these addressing the issue of the arrest.
People... The arrest is NOT for stealing our technology.
Believe it or not, Trump has managed to turn this from a "simple trade war, that's easy to win", into a diplomatic nightmare.
11
@Martin It is about misleading banks in the US, the cleared transactions that sent dollars to Iran. While I think this whole enmity with Iran is misguided, it's pretty clear if she did what she is accused of, she broke US law.
2
@Martin
That’s right; the arrest was for violating US banking laws. She successfully defrauded a number of US banks by creating a shell company to get American banks to unwittingly violate US sanctions against Iran. The violation has nothing to do with Iran directly.
The western media seem to believe Beijing's propaganda that Trump "started the trade war."
In fact, Beijing has been waging economic war against the US for decades through their mercantilism and state-sponsored theft of US intellectual property. We've just begun to fight back, that's all.
Nothing wrong with self defense. Be happy it didn't take another Pearl Harbor to wake us up.
13
The West destroyed the last Chinese dynasty through "unequal treaties" and extraction of wealth at cannon point from the 1840s to the turn of the 20th century.
What followed was a "century of humiliation." The Chinese might not have played the fairest the past few decades, but who can blame them?
3
@Richard:
Sinophobia comes to mind when I read your post. You accuse China from your point of view, you do not understand the other perspective.
How do you know for fact that those islands are not belong to China in the first place? If the poor nations do not want to do business with China, they can simply walk out the business deals. No one force them to do business with Chinese companies. It's an economical decision, not an emotional one.
Poor nations need Chinese money to bail them out, to lift them from poverty. It's a two-way street.
Check history of 19th and beginning of 20th century of Chinese history. China was invaded by Western countries and Japan. Read up Hong Kong and Macau as British Colony and Portuguese colony. China never invades any country. It always needs to defend itself. Check Chinese history and Chinese dynasties.
Manufacturing jobs pollute the land. Foreign companies that buy Chinese products and consumers benefits the most. Take your money away, I'd rather to have pristine land, water, and air. I can drink the water from a Chinese village in late 70's, now it's all gone.
Most Chinese citizens suffer because of the pollution bought on by manufacturing. You got to understand the suffering of Chinese people.
China is not seeking dominance, it wants to feed over one billion people so that they can't overthrow the government. I do hope one day China can have a Chinese-version of democracy, not the U.S. version of it.
11
@Boss
Oh come on, the "nine dash line" is ridiculous and has no legal basis (see the international ruling).
Poor nations need China? Sure but if China exploits weak/corrupt governments through bribery to further its own goals, they are making the world a worse place.
China never invades any country? Tell the Vietnamese that, they have 79 dead soldiers killed on an island China seized from them. That's not to mention the thousands of Americans who died in N. Korea. While China may not have "invaded" Korea, they've been supporting them for the last 50 years, causing MILLIONS DEAD. (I'm Korean).
Sure, the U.S. and others did a lot of bad things OVER A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. Does China believe it is entitled to do the same? Then why doesn't the U.S. behave the same way? The U.S. could instantly and completely crush the Chinese economy through an oil blockade. If the Chinese believe "might makes right" (as is evident in their actions with poorer, weaker nations) well, they aren't (yet) the big boy. And if they keep acting the way they do, the world will be a terrible place when they are the big boy.
Finally, the U.S. doesn't write Chinese environmental law. Plenty of nations (Korea, Japan, Tawian, Thailand) have become richer without destroying their environment. Don't lay the blame on the U.S.
China doesn't want dominance? Well "Made in China 2025" is exactly that in tech. Maybe Xi denies it but he also said to Obama they wouldn't militarize the S. China sea. Ha!
1
Remember that China's elite are all 'new money'. The term for a 'rich kid' in China is 'fuerdai' which literally means second generation wealth. Wealthy Chinese have never experienced confidence and security in their status; each knows that they can at any time be questioned by the party and risk all manner of punishment, including death.
Ironically, it is Canada and the U.S. which continue to provide a safe haven for illicit Chinese funds and corrupt billionaires. If Trump actually wanted to send shivers through Chinese elites, he could extradite the dozens of high-ranking ex-officials that this morning are sipping tea from the penthouses above the Central Park, gazing in gratitude at Trump Tower.
5
So what's this article driving at? Let her go and allay the fears the Chinese elite have against the US? Say sorry to her so Xi can do things Trump wants him to? That it was a mistake for the US to ask the Canadian government to detain her to begin with?
8
Americans reacting with glee to the arrest of Huawei's CFO using hired Canadian enforcer is typically shortsighted. They crave instant gratification. They are clueless how this arrest is perceived in China at all levels, and the long term impact.
Huawei is not going to be stopped by this incident. Meng is replaceable while stuck in Vancouver for a while. The keyword "Home-Grown" get another boost in China. China is graduating plenty of young scientists & engineers.
Following China's success in walling up their internet and invented their own cashless system, something similar will happen to 5G telecom. The world will be divided into the English 5-i camp that conspires to ban Huawei, versus China & those countries who cannot afford more expensive American products.
"Home-Grown" also means China will spend more on R&D and try to recruit top tier scientists to China. Outflow of Chinese students to USA will be reduced, creating financial hardship for many American colleges. China will rely more on their domestic consumers to keep up production.
China holds a lot of US Treasury bonds that they can cash out at opportunistic time to fund their "Home-Grown" projects. Borrowing cost for Americans will go up, with implications on mortgage defaults, recession, etc.
Irate Chinese consumers will buy less American products incl soybeans & pork. Chinese tourists stop going to USA. Canada will be targeted too. American businesses in China might be forced to retreat. It will be MESSY.
5
@Observer
Americans certainly crave instant gratification but this is to address a long simmering worsening wound. As recent statistics have shown, the U.S. life expectancy has DECLINED for perhaps the first time in history. Why? Basically because of suicides and other ailments caused by depression and lower standards of living. The opiod crisis, rightly or wrongly blamed partially on the wide availability of cheap Chinese products (the opium wars in reverse) is part of this.
So while Americans are certainly in the dark about what the Chinese feel, I don't think they care. (And I really don't think the Chinese know how strongly Americans feel about this). When so many Americans (basically Trump supporters) feel like not just that their future is at stake but that their existence is becoming more and more marginal, they'll be looking for something or someone to blame.
China is an easy target (as opposed to the policies of the "elites" running America). And they may actually be right in targeting the Chinese. If China had developed, as was naively hoped, into a prosperous, free democracy bound by rule of law, the world would have had an assured future. Instead the most populous country in the world is an authoritarian dystopia where censorship, complete control of media, arbitrary arrests and "disappearances" are the order of the day. Oh not to mention the mass incarceration of entire ethnic/religious groups.
Choose your world carefully. You'll have to live there.
3
Doubtless the Chinese will make many hyperbolic statements. Not sure the Trump administration is up to this conflict or not. The issues are important ones though. China is no longer a developing country. It is well past time to allow technology transfers, theft of intellectual property, and supporting China’s ambitions to become the world’s global hegemony.
7
"In a statement, Huawei said it had “every confidence that the Canadian and U.S. legal systems will reach the right conclusion.”
In this case, she will be prosecuted just like anyone else for breaking the law and if she is innocent, will be acquitted.
It's no surprise that China would be outraged at the notion of accountability, considering that it encountered basically zero consequences during decades of playing dirty.
11
@Jesse
Meng Wanzhou faces accusations of participating in a scheme to trick financial institutions into making transactions that violated United States sanctions against Iran.
These are United States sanctions, not international sanctions. How can a citizen of China be extradited from Canada to face prosecution under US law when any action she may have taken are outside US jurisdiction?
5
@herne If you do business in the United States you are subject to American law, this is something all foreign businesses have to agree to prior to doing business in the United States. Likewise, US citizens are subject to American law in addition to local laws in a foreign country. If you are a US citizen that is doing something in a foreign country that isn't illegal in that country, but illegal in America, you are still breaking American law and can be prosecuted for it. Back to Huawei, in theory as the CFO she would have had direct knowledge/involvement in trying to conceal these transactions. The defense would argue that she had no knowledge of these transactions. Prosecution would counter then that she is either bad at her job, or totally inept. The evidence must be relatively compelling for Canada to arrest her on the United States behalf, something that would not usually happen unless the evidence was solid. Even the US closest allies sometimes refuse to extradite its own citizens to the United States, so to arrest a foreign citizen on behalf another foreign country is actually pretty incredible. It's unlikely Canada would risk this unless the information they were provided wasn't overwhelming.
2
@Jesse While we are prosecuting her "like anyone else" why not prosecute Trump "like anyone else" now that it is crystal clear that he has, through Michael Cohen, committed felonies in the 2016 election.
While I wouldn't dispute that China engages in the theft of American intellectual property, I wonder how many realize that many of the scientists making those discoveries are ethnically Chinese, often immigrants or the children of immigrants. Flip through a journal of any scientific discipline and you will see what I mean. So, I would not be too confident that the Chinese innately lack a capacity for innovation. Nor that stopping theft will be enough to keep the West ahead. Rewarding academically outstanding students as much as great high school quarterbacks might be a good place to start though. And we better keep encouraging that immigration...
5
@The F.A.D.
Yes, when I make my daily scan of scientific papers published worldwide, I note that up to half of the surnames seem Chinese. Even with a substantial fraction coming from other Asian countries like Korea (not everyone there is named Kim!) it's clear that at a large proportion are ethnic Chinese.
Should this worry us (the U.S.)? Well no, as long as we don't go down China's path of authoritarianism, censorship, complete control of the media, arbitrary arrest and "disappearances", and incarceration of entire ethnic/religious groups (Uyghurs). As long as these talented and extremely hard working Chinese scientists and researchers vote with their feet and stay in the U.S. (if we let them!) they'll have a better life and make us (the U.S.) stronger. Remember, they're just people too; wanting to have a better life. If that's in a land of a difficult language (English) and strange food so be it.
Things aren't good under Trump but they are nowhere near as bad as in China and 200 years of democracy gives me faith in the system. If China had developed into a prosperous, free, open democracy with rule of law, I might be there now (I live in a country next door). But until then, we've got to be on our guard lest their model of running the world becomes the standard.
3
For the opening, I give China high marks for being defenders of an individual’s right to a transparent and fair trial. “To detain someone without giving clear reason is an obvious violation of human rights,” said a spokesman for China’s Foreign Ministry, demanding Ms. Meng’s release” (NYT Dec 7). However, since they are not so good at giving Chinese citizens the right to representation and a timely trial, I have to assess China 2 demotions.
Ms. Meng’s crime was that she mislead a US bank into leading money for the sale of sanctioned equipment that was destined for Iran. “But there was no distinction between Skycom and Huawei, Mr. Gibb-Carsley said. Huawei operated Skycom as an unofficial subsidiary, making efforts to keep the connection between the companies secret” (NYT Dec. 7). I give Canada a very high mark for supporting international judicial treaties.
6
So yesterday lot of commenters were taking China’s side without understanding the case against Huawei, at least now the sentiments are different after details of the case were published.
7
American executives better leave China now before they become collateral damage in this trade war with China. Sooner or later the Chinese will retaliate by arresting the American executives in Beijing as a form of retaliation.
2
What the Chinese should really be upset about - all these children of these powerful and princelings - studying at some of the most expensive schools in America.
A nearby NYT story reports children of this woman and he father are currently in Boston and one at Harvard. So is the daughter of China's maximum dictator - it's president.
To me, if I were a Chinese - I would conclude that these rich and powerful are interested in China as only a labor colony - to make cheaper products based in thefts of intellectual property.
They have otherwise no interest in China as their children will hardly know what an average Chinese suffers.
And for that Chinese should look no further than India where I have arrived for my winter stay.
In India, there is not one rich, pwerful businessman or a politician whose children is NOT studying in America or working there on H1B visas. My friends at US consulates and embassy tell me that a large portion if these visas go to these children.
And it shows. Like in China - these powerful folks have no interest in bettering lives of an average Indian. They could care less.
Any wonder, a recent survey showed over 65% of young Indians want to leave India - for good.
7
The quotes in this NYT article are fun. Thanks for publishing them. For example:
‘“Her arrest will have phenomenal repercussions in China,” said Tao Jingzhou, a corporate lawyer in Beijing. “The wealthy have already been worried for a long time about their safety and their wealth in America,” he added. “If the U.S. is going to pursue corruption and extraterritorial laws, that will increase.”’
By implication then for a long-time wealthy Chinese have been stealing money and hiding it in the United States and a lot of other places. And they want to go on doing this. Otherwise they might have to sell that real estate they bought from Los Angeles to Vancouver, BC, at a loss. Heavens to Betsy! Homelessness on the Pacific coast might decline! Empty houses will be filled! Millennials won’t have to live in vans! Really sounds bad.
‘“Others said Ms. Meng’s arrest would embolden those who have long suspected that the United States is determined to block China’s rise. “This will just confirm everyone’s worst suspicions about the U.S.,” said one retired businesswoman with family ties to the party leadership, speaking on condition of anonymity.”’
Why would the national goal of the United States ever be to have the full confidence of Chinese Communist Party?
6
Huawei, I think, translates to "Highway Robbers" in Mandarin. It is about time that the US and the rest of the world stood up to these corporate BRIGANDS! Huawei became the behemoth it is today by stealing from Nortel, Lucent, Cisco and other western technology companies.
Let the Chinese splutter and rage about the "unjust" treatment of their thieving company. Karma comes calling to the land of Confucius!
6
Is the U.S. trying to prevent China's rise?
It should
In long overdue actions, the U.S. is fighting back against rampant I.P. theft against ALL developed countries (just ask Samsung), unfair trade laws and breaking laws that the Chinese agreed to in the U.N. That includes embargoes on trade with Iran, North Korea and maybe others as well as flaunting anti-bribery laws around the world.
And that's not even considering their grabs for territory like their ridiculous "nine-dash line" in the South China sea (and Xi's promise to Obama not to put military installations there).
At one time, I and many others hoped that the rise of China (which was permitted by successive American administrations starting with Nixon), would be accompanied by a flourishing of democracy, rule of law and freedom. We were badly mistaken, China is following its own way with authoritarian rule, censorship and complete control of ALL media, arbitrary arrest and "disappearances" of anyone, and mass incarceration and "re-education" of entire ethnic/religious groups.
I'm Asian and my best friend is Chinese (Taiwanese) and I've been involved in Asian-American rights issues for decades. Still, despite the kinship I feel for the Chinese, I must say that even the worst we've had to suffer under Trump is still much much better than what life must be like in China (I live in a country next door). Their system is truly becoming a 21st century dystopia.
Which world would you like to live in? Your children?
6
The Chinese are untrustworthy in their dealings with everybody. The immorality of their drive to steal everything in the West that isn’t nailed down must stopped. There is no honor in their system that a Westerner would recognize as such and we must act accordingly. If that means stopping all trade with them other than foodstuffs, so be it.
6
By what right do we tell China not to trade with Iran?
10
@Kevin Cahill
None; we can make trade with another country a condition of trade with the US though. China can do whatever it wishes, it just can’t assume it will maintain current trade relationship with the US. In the extreme; does China benefit more by being able to sell on good terms with the US (20+ trillion economy), or Iran?
1
Chinese executives have no good options, even if they aren't supportive of their government's position or actions. They can either be held hostage in their own country and "re-educated" where they are found disloyal or they take their chances with compliance and feel the wrath of rival nations.
This woman, for all that she represents, is an intermediary in an international tug-of-war. She is also disposable as far as long-term Chinese interests go. Forcing one nation-state to stop its behavior through such intermediaries has not resulted in substantial changes. Not ever. Did Iran or North Korea "break" the US by holding US hostages? No, they just enforced resolve. China has enormous control over news media and propaganda. The arrest will be "sold" to the populace as unjust and the US/Canada will have to guard against retaliation (cyber warfare for one). All the while, China, will continue to steal/spy and undermine.
In my view, as unattractive as it may be to some economists, it that the rest of the G20 has to consider outright bans of Chinese investment, personnel and products to send the right message that they either respect the playing field, or get off. The rest of the world is not enough to sustain their growth needs.
Arresting Chinese executives serves as wonderful bait for the Chinese propaganda machine, but won't slow down their momentum unless we are united in resolve and resistance.
44
Greed of American companies has brought us to this pitiable situation where phony arguments are being made about "theft" of intellectual property. How is it a theft when in the first place it is these very companies who set up shop in that country for cheap labor. No one invited them. They went on their own, built state of art factories, gave all their designs and drawings, and intellectual property, trained their labor, gave them access to unlimited world wide markets. And now By reverse engineering, the Chinese can now do better than these foreign companies. So why cry about it. We should reverse the trend not by just tariffs, but by creating alternate capacity in USA and in neighboring countries. The arrest of Chinese executive will not help an iota and will be counter productive. In fact permanent damage will be done to American brands and their market share in China by these tactics. Soya beans are already rotting in American farms.
68
@Freesoul untrue. Third world companies like China, India, etc. welcomed American technology companies with open arms to build products or outsource customer service call centers to (India, Philippines). These were jobs that paid many times the prevailing wage and helped these nations lift people out of abject poverty.
I agree though, support Americans by pulling all manufacturing and service jobs back from the third world and keep them in America. While it may be cheaper on the surface for labor overseas, there is a long term cost to our country to outsource.
9
@Freesoul
The arrest and prosecution of Meng will help reinforce the notion that laws in the United States have to be obeyed.
2
@Freesoul you’re describing violations of patent laws. You can’t “reverse engineer” a patented product legally. As for greed, you have a point. China can for technology transfers as a condition of doing business. Don’t be surprised that the US may require China to act in a fair way in order to sell you’re products here. Don’t like our rules? Just like our companies in China, don’t trade with us. We’ll figure out how to get products from countries who respect our laws.
4
The comments here show rising Sinophobic sentiments, if unchecked, will be very dangerous for China-US relations and for the world at large. Since China’s opening, millions of Chinese have studied in the US, many of them made fundamental contributions to American scientific and technological advances. So in a sense, the US has been “stealing” talent from China and the rest of the world to enrich itself. Intellectual property rights is a monopoly by advanced economies that blocks developing countries from advancing on the economic ladder. So-called fair play is inherently unfair toward the latecomers, which is why most developing countries are still stuck where they are.
We need to put things in perspective here so that the China-US rivalry does not get out of control.
57
People escaping an authoritarian regime to build a better life in a free country is not stealing by the US in any sense of the word.
2
Economics is the main driving force behind migration, including migration of talents. China is trying to attract talent back with very generous offers. The authoritarian nature of the government has been a nuisance and cause for concern for many Chinese intellectuals, but not so severe as many people in the west seems to believe that it deters people from going back. It’s a free competition for the best talent, much of it is legitimate. But there is now a tendency to brand all these as IP thefts by China.
4
@Leto
Take into consideration the intellectual and educational level of the average commenter.
2
To the Chinese this feels like a rerun of the Opium Wars of the 19th century, the so-called Unequal Treaties, and extraterritorial concessions granted to foreign powers.
17
@Phil Daniels
Phil is right. For the Chinese, it's history repeating itself all over again. It touches a raw nerve across the population, one that Chinese leadership has long cultivated, like a 'start' button whenever they need to round up support from the people.
Yes, there are competing agendas at work in the new CP, but at the end of the day, fear that the US is trying to 'block" China's growth will dominate this dynamic.
10
@Phil Daniels
"To the Chinese this feels like a rerun of the Opium Wars..."
The rerun of the Opium wars is China exporting fentanyl and other synthetic opiates to the criminal underworld in the US.
3
@Phil Daniels
THE CCCP is basically telling the Chinese people that hey aren't good enough to succeed as a world superpower, if they don't lie and cheat.
As for the Opium War, the Chinese are flooding the US with the opioid fentanyl. They are intentionally destroying the lives of hundreds of thousands of people
"Washington considers Huawei to be an arm of Chinese intelligence"?
Not quite. The heart of the problem is that Huawei uses a system of encryption that prevents the NSA from intercepting its communications. A number of governments and secret services in the non-Western world have begun to equip themselves exclusively with Huawei materials, and are doing so to protect the confidentiality of their communications.
Convincing Cisco or some other U.S. company to leave back doors in their equipment is quite simple. One can always threaten the management or board of these companies with some tax investigation or over other shady activities. That is not so easy when the company is hosted in China. It requires the NSA and others to use more expensive efforts to reach their aim:
The National Security Agency breached Huawei servers years ago in an effort to investigate its operations and its ties to Chinese security agencies and the military, and to create back doors so the National Security Agency could roam in networks around the globe wherever Huawei equipment was used.
31
@godfree If China didn't have a rich, well-documented and ongoing history of stealing any foreign technology it can get its hands on, I might feel more sympathy for Huawei.
1
It is so nice to see the chinese government involved in the comments sections of the NYT. Welcome to America. We have laws, ideally we enforce those laws.
The one thing no one seems to be pleading for Ms Weng or Huwai is innocence. That she is not guilty of the crimes from which she is accused. If you want to do business in America, using American Banks, you should be accountable to US law. Likewise Americans doing business in China.
73
@Edward Brennan it is, isn't it? Their English writing skills are very good but some of the phrases used are just as little off - just enough to spot that it isn't an American writing many of these comments.
I never thought I would say ever say this about anything, but I agree with the Trump administration on this one and think that the phrase "lock her up!" is apropos.
2
@Edward Brennan
The article states that Chinese people believer that Ms. Went and Huawei are innocent. And HSBC is not an American bank, it's headquartered in London.
And Microsoft doesn't collude with Governments ?
15
It is now open season to prosecute Americans World Wide, as local laws will now take presidence, as they follow lock step and do what the USA did.
9
The US has something called the 'foreign corrupt practices act' which also forbids American companies from acting corruptly in other countries.
It would be nice if China would have done something about this Hauwei violation of international sanctions of Iran themselves, but instead they let themselves lose face on multiple fronts.
The government should treat her with lots of respect, let her have bail on her own recognizance, and give her an easy way out, like having Hauwei and her pay fines for the sanctions violations. If Hauwei won't do that, or if she flees the country, then the international community will see that China is not serious about being an international power.
Assuming they do the rational thing and pay the fines, agreeing to abide by the sanctions regimes in Iran and NK, people will have gained face on both sides. This is an opportunity for us to grow closer, not hate each-other more. The commentators in China and the US are basically fanning the flames when we should be looking for compromise.
2
From now on I blame all of the damage caused by Trump, including by his idiotic administration, as the fault of the GOP Congressional leadership. They could dump Trump anytime but won't because he owns their ignorant base. I agree that our trade relationship with China needs serious fixing, but Trump and his gang of idiots are going about it so stupidly that they are creating a disaster. And thank you Republican donors, enjoy your tax cuts!
20
@walkman
You blame Trump for finally standing up to Beijing's mercantilism and state sponsored theft of American intellectual property?
That's strange.
If we spent 10% of the time and money that we spent on fighting the USSR on protecting the USA from Chinese theft of our technology, we would make serious headway in re-purposing our relationship with them.
Step two: dissuade US companies from offshoring manufacturing in China. We willfully destroy our own industries, their employees, and create unhealthy dependency on China. Pharmaceutical drugs, to name just one.
25
"... that is because Ms. Meng, 46, is so embedded in that establishment herself."
Trump administration advisors from the Commerce, Treasury, and Justice Departments, as well as the White House staff have made a fatal error by arresting Ms. Meng regardless of the trade talks, tariffs, and trade war.
There is a deadly failure to appreciate the difference between the Chinese model of business which is one and the same as the Communist Party making the arrest of Ms. Meng equal to arresting the Foreign Minister, for instance.
The uproar from the Chinese populace reveals the oneness between Chinese businesses - whether state owned or private entrepreneurial as Huawei is - and the Communist Party. That pride you hear is patriotism.
Xi is not in trouble - (foolish American hopes) - rather, the message from the populace is simply outrage at American audacity.
(Arresting Ms. Meng reminds me of the Tonya Harding move.)
19
So what if China writes laws forbidding companies doing business with Taiwanese companies (or do they?). Will executives of US companies be arrested for doing business with, or creating shell corporations, for such business, when they step into a China friendly country?
24
They would if they defrauded chinese banks in the process
“If I was a U.S. tech executive,” said James A. Lewis, the director of the technology program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, “I wouldn’t go to China for a while.”
Good advice. But I think it also extends to many U.S. executives (and perhaps other Americans) living there. Whatever else they do or don't do, the Chinese will most likely retaliate with an eye for an eye.
21
@Thunder Road
Yes, I think it would be a great idea for all US business expatriates in China to come back home. And to shift all their manufacturing activities to places outside of China. The Chinese have been taking advantage of and running rough-shod over the US (and other western nations) for far too long!
6
@Thunder Road
Ms Meng's arrest is one more item in the Hawk's desire to rupturer relations any way they can; working in this case around the President who reportedly was uninformed. the interesting report would be were it originated and how executed.
1
Scary if the Chinese start doing the same. Ugh....
8
@Steph if the US government agrees on sanctions with China and a US executive violates those sanctions and lies about it, the Chinese government won’t have to arrest them, we will.
I disagree with this "president" on almost everything but we need to crack down on China's wholesale theft of our intellectual property. They steal our patents and make billions off them. Case in point: Xiaomi, which copies the design of each iPhone down to almost the centimeter, in both hardware and software design. And they get away with it because no one wants to anger the Chinese Communist Party that controls Xiaomi and the other tech behemoths.
We should forbid import of most Chinese devices and prevent those companies from using American parts. To allow them to continue stealing is simply unfair to the inventors of these technologies.
64
@Casey Penk
Trade agreements are supposed to address these issues. This arrest has nothing to do with it - unless we are holding her for hostage talks.
That would be a sad day for the US.
11
@Casey Penk
And what happens when the Chinese stop sending any products to the USA. Expect to have shortages of just about everything and for prices to skyrocket as they are already do so.
5
@Yanni25
There are more well made goods in the basements and attics in the US than being manufactured in China. China not only has the US to be concerned with but also the West in general.
6
How does a company like Apple, for example, utilize Chinese labor without the risk that some of it’s technology will be stolen, or reverse-engineered. This is an even worse situation for semi-conductor companies. The technology, the intellectual property, is developed here and the products are made in China.
I’m not sure what could be put in place to prevent that. As long as our tech companies rely on inexpensive Chinese labor to produce $1,200 smart phones, the risk of intellectual property theft will always be present.
I don’t have an answer. Anyone else?
22
@HeyJoe - move production of hi tech goods to 'less-of-threat' low wage countries such as Indonesia, Vietnam, India, Bangladesh, Cambodia, Nigeria, Mozambique ...
11
@HeyJoe
Maybe we should be asking Apple's executives (and other companies) why they are willing to take this risk?
It's not like they go into China blindfolded. Is it?
18
@Martin You might appreciate this article from 2012:
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html
The proper analogy is not to Ms. Sandberg and Steve Jobs but to Ivanka and her daddy. She (and Jared) have possibly violated a rule or two in their quest for licenses in China or selling property in the US (directly or by their next of kin). I don't know with what countries China has extradition agreements. And so on, until Tariff Man explodes (the other guy has more constraints on him, so whatever his temperament may be, he's likely to be more restrained, but as Tariff Man says, we'll see). As for the rest of us, duck and cover...
4
So the US has turned into Saudi Arabia.
Thanks Trump!
15
Read what Joe Nocera says about this new Trump outrage:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-12-07/arrest-of-huawei-s-meng-wanzhou-should-outrage-americans?srnd=premium
1
In a speech last month former US Treasury secretary Hank Paulson argued that a consensus has emerged in the US that engagement has failed to change China’s behaviour. Some 17 years after China joined the WTO, it still hasn’t opened its economy to foreign competition in many areas.
He accused Beijing of promoting its “digital silk road” initiative overseas, seeking to impose its standards for cyber governance elsewhere, further driving confrontation with the US.
He also warned of an “Economic Iron Curtain” dividing the world if the US and China fail to resolve strategic differences.
Meng Wanzhou’s arrest may just be a sideshow of the ongoing trade standoff. The US and China are embroiled in a battle for tech hegemony in disguise.
14
@J. von Hettlinhgen
Hank Paulson got "played" by China to a degree without precedent in history.
And now the world is staring into an abyss.
4
For people who question Canada's role in this matter, here is a good explanation from their national broadcaster, the CBC: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/meng-huawei-extradition-1.4937146
2
Business class flights to/from China - USA are going to get very cheap very quickly.
11
This is a dangerous game that the Trump's administration is playing. China can argue that US's companies have for years violated China's sanction on selling heavy military equipment to Taiwan despite repeated warning not to do so.
I hate to see retaliation from China but the Pandora box has been opened and not sure what will happen from here.
17
Did they file fraudulent documents with Chinese banks to move money through them to Taiwan? I doubt it.
15
I am confused as to why this is being primarily discussed as an issue between the United States and China and not between China and Canada.
She has not been extradited to the United States (yet).
3
The banks defrauded were US. Canada’s cooperation is almost standard for these kinds of accused perps.
4
@Steve Canada is not a real country,more like a facade. Events such as the arrest of Meng Wahnzou just makes it more obvious.
5
this is nonsense. it appears to me that canada is a country that plays by agreed upon processes, regulations and law. I will be very disappointed if that isn't the case here.
I’m no Trump fan but am happy with the way he is dealing with China. China is no friend of western countries and China’s ideas about human rights and the environment are really bad.
They also have been stealing technology non-stop from US companies. When those companies close down thanks to cheap copycats from China, it hurts American workers.
I fear that once China becomes powerful enough, their autocratic ideas will spread and lots of people will be oppressed.
29
@Mike Wait a minute. When you needed China to kill the Soviet bear, China was your best of friends. When China open up and let western companies to set up manufacturing plants you guys cheer because you could buy a flat screen TV dirt cheap, and PC at below $1,000 bucks. Your corporate captains make out like a bandit earning millions in bonuses due to the huge profits from off shoring. Mind you, most employees working for these companies benefited from the fat dividends and soaring stock prices in their 401K accounts.
Then when GM almost got bankrupt during the 2008 financial fiasco, her Chinese subsidiary was making money hand over fist selling Buick in China.
Fast food joints like MacDonald, Pizza Hut, KFC, Starbucks are opening shops like uncontrolled weeds growing all over the country.
All of the sudden, when China finally was able to move up the value chain you cried foul. Why is Huawei building 5G network and we are not? Why is China bullet train network the most extensive and expansive and among the best in the world? How come China was able to lead on AI, green technologies and bio-medical technologies and we are not spending R&D money in these areas? I
Instead we squandered trillions on failed regime change adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Syria and Niger.
54
@TK
So China was doing all these things you mentioned out of altruism? Not their own self interest?
Really?
All the manufacturers that moved there were willing to put up with the IP theft and tech transfers at first, but as it became apparent that China was never going to crack down, they moved out. If it weren't for Western, Japanese and Korean companies moving there in the first place, China would still be a third world basket case.
China got to where it is partially out of hard work but mostly through theft.
That's the thanks the West gets for allowing China into the WTO.
11
All your points may be well taken, but bank fraud is still a crime. Should we just ignore it because of our previous mistakes in dealing with China? We’re not in a court of equity here but in a law court where this woman has been charged with a crime. The clean hands doctrine will not be of any use to her.
NYT needs to update this story. The charges are as CFO, she personally managed business entities to pass money to and from Iran while the UN restrictions were in place. She filed fraudulent documents with US banks and created fraudulent transactions. No wonder the Canadians arrested her.
My guess is the Chinese will throw her to the wolves or force her to plead out.
40
@Michael Blazin
Nice job, I brothers read your update. For sure there's probable cause for an inditement. Fraud, money laundering and violating our an UNs in positions against Iranium exports. Another Times article today on the Chinese elites and privileged's alarm about this arrest of one of China's high profile business women. There aren't many of them so the impact is amplified.
The message delivered is there's a new sheriff's in town and he's serious about law and order and America first in trade policies. In my view, this will have a positive impact on the trade negotions. Already China has started the process to import more soybeans.
Good news!
9
I am all in with reciprocating Mr. Wang’s proposed retaliatory actions. I try to avoid purchasing any Communist China product whenever possible. I also would never visit such a polluted, authoritarian, immoral and lawless place. I would rather spend my capitalist tourist dollars in a like-minded democracy like Japan. Bring it on.
30
The U.S. has access to cheap labor from China. This is of enormous value and is passed down to American consumers. What would happen to the U.S. economy if Chinese labor was made unavailable? No question it would be disastrous.
9
Good point, great point actually. But I doubt China would put hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of their citizens out of work to spite the US. My guess is that this wouldn’t go over well in China.
As for the arrest, well, Chinese theft of US intellectual property was around long before Trump. I can’t stand Trump, but he’s finally got the US playing hardball with China. I think the trade war is not only unnecessary, but counter productive - it hurts more Americans and helps few, if any.
Seems we have the upper hand here. Trump is obsessed with the meaningless trade balance. Indirectly though, he is addressing China’s thefts and their violation of UN sanctions. If we next start freezing the US assets of China’s oligarchs, things might finally change and China may start playing by the rules.
4
@cornez Disasterous for who? For both countries. We must not count on China to eternally do our low cost manufacturing. They offer low prices to grab market share, not because they wish to remain poor.
3
@Cornez
"What would happen to the U.S. economy if Chinese labor was made unavailable?"
Move to Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Mexico, etc.
It's already happening.
But unfortunately not back to the US.
6
This is one time I agree with the trump administration. China has been stealing our technology for a long time and positioning themselves with it to dominate the manufacturing sector. The have ignored all of our warnings. They have refused to negotiate. It is time to play rough.
38
I despise Trump but he calculated correctly that any entity planning the long game would be adverse to risk. China is highly cautious and it's endgame is small, incremental change. How to disrupt China? Sudden, unpredictable action. Of course the arrest had nothing to do with China.
11
The Chinese government gets stuff done because their unified government works to further China’s wellbeing. Here in the USA, our political parties fight each other and companies are encouraged throw our workers under the bus.
12
Western countries need to recognise that China is still an autocratic communist country, not a friend of democracy or freedom.
Building reefs into islands to claim territorial waters.
Chaining poor nations to debt they cannot afford.
Stealing foreign intellectual property using state-funded spies.
Seeking economic dominance to exert imperial control.
China is only going to get worse if not checked.
China remains stable under authoritarian rule BECAUSE people are distracted by the personal benefits of its economic success and the sense of nationalistic pride.
It is time for western countries to repatriate manufacturing to the free world so we retain real strategic independence and capability; to demand open access to Chinese markets; and to demand from China the same investment and ownership rights they speculatively exploit in our countries whilst banning at home.
Chinese speculate in Western real estate whilst we cannot even buy Chinese real estate. How conveniently rigged is that ?
How stupid have western political leaders been to sign unbalanced “free trade agreements” with China while our business leaders hand China our manufacturing on a plate so they can create the wealth to exploit that unbalanced playing field.
Meanwhile westerners struggle to get the well-paid jobs they used to have or buy houses with prices inflated by Chinese investors.
While China implements their long term plan for global dominance, western political leadership falters and loses way.
194
@Richard Mitchell-Lowe
I disagree with the tone of your argument, which precludes the possibility that the Chinese leadership is in any way pursuing legitimate Chinese interests. For example, why wouldn't China attempt to assume control of the South China Sea? It's desirable for the U.S. to maintain a monopoly of force over the Panama Canal. Or should we rely on China's navy to keep the artery open? So, why wouldn't China attempt to build a presence in a sea lane equally vital to her economic interests?
I could make similar arguments straight down the line to counter the list you cite. My point is not that China is justified in any one or another of her policies. Instead, it's that history is overflowing with examples of conflict exacerbated by vilification of the "other." If we hope to navigate the coming troubles peacefully, we absolutely have to understand the Chinese point of view. This sort of thinking doesn't help with that.
56
@Richard Mitchell-Lowe
Problem: American corporations don't want to repatriate manufacturing to the free world because of the high labor costs.
17
@Richard Mitchell-Lowe,
Someone once commented the fact that there are Chinese-Americans but no American-Chinese.
One way street with them in all ways.
16
To be clear: the Chinese haven't gotten where they are technologically because of their ingenuity and innovation.
They just stole a bunch of intellectual property. Period.
I think this arrest sends an important signal. We shouldn't reward criminal activity just because you're really good at it.
111
@M. Noone Ignorance is not a response. Get yourself education on China. It is the number 2 economy in the world and the source of almost everything you consume from the clothes you wear to the dished you eat off of. I think some respect and understanding of economics is needed.
24
@Uofcenglish So what alternative do you propose? It sounds like you are advocating total financial surrender, for the sake of low price consumer goods -- goods created by, essentially, slave labor -- with their costs being subsidized by China in order to gain world control of the products.
China has become economically dominant because previous administrations ignored their rapacious ways.
9
He did not dispute that the West is benefiting from your exploitation of rural laborers in your factories as well as your disregard for your environment. We all consume cheap products made in China (even though my dishes and kitchen ware are all German. I am a sucker for quality).
His point was that your rapid TECHNOLOGICAL advances owe much to your policy of giving market access only in exchange of production/assembly being executed within China (e.g. cars, trains, chemicals). Moreover, the production facilities had to be majority owned by Chinese entities. This way you insured engineering know how was being transferred to China, and subsequently copied. There's no point in you denying this.
7
We did the same as the Chinese to climb to economic ascendency. In one neighborhood they say: “Turn about is fair play,” in another they say ”What goes around comes around.”
17
@Fanon
Sure that was fair game IN THE NINETEENTH CENTURY.
So if we were still playing that game, with those rules, what should we do? Considering America's (still) overwhelming economic (the American bank network casts a global net) and military (how many overseas bases do the Chinese have?) dominance we could be playing a lot dirtier.
Like, since China has a modest number (200+?) of nuclear weapons we wouldn't go into a total war (though at those odds a first strike looks mighty appealing). Or perhaps a physical war isn't necessary; almost every computer (and phone) in China runs on American chips and uses an American OS connected by internet protocols invented in America we might just "turn off" their country. Or why not a simple blockade of oil (they can't project power outside of their "nine dash line"). That would instantly and completely crush their economy.
No, we don't do these things because keeping a quarter of the world's population poor isn't in anyone's best interest (or so we thought when we LET THEM TRADE with us). Now that China is safely middle class and seeks tech dominance by 2025, perhaps we shouldn't be so coddling towards them.
Do you want a world run by an authoritarian government that censors everything and controls all media (not just Fox News), that arbitrarily arrests and disappears people and incarcerates huge numbers of people just due to their religion/ethnicity?
Choose your future carefully, you (and your children) will be living there
Refreshing to have a Nationalist in the White House.
13
@Tiger shark
Discouraging to have a liar and a thief in the White House.
15
@Tiger shark
Haruki Murakami on nationalism:
“Nationalism is like cheap liquor. It gets you drunk after only a few shots and makes you hysterical, but after your drunken rampage you are left with nothing but an awful headache the next morning.”
The Japanese ought to know...
8
I can’t imagine that arresting one Chinese business leader, albeit a powerful one, can stop China’s march toward economic superiority. There must be better ways to work with china. Oops, we already killed the Pacific Trade Partnership.
87
@Michael Feeley
I'm surprised that this comment is a Times Pick since it seems to show a misunderstanding of what the TPP was meant to do. It did not include China and was instead meant to strengthen trade with other countries in the Pacific region.
24
@Michael Feeley
Yes I agree with (Andres') comment. The TPP was meant to constrain China not build (more) ties with them.
Perhaps Michael meant "There must be better ways to work AGAINST (or around) china".
1
@Andres
And the end game for the TPP was to bring China in to the TPP last and on the terms of the TPP which would have helped address many of the problem areas where China is misbehaving.
5
One of Americas great attributes is invention and most importantly reinvention.
When you go to China there is no respect for intellectual property. You see at open markets which are huge with competition in forgeries amongst vendors.
You can go to Canal street in NY and the whispers of products bearing the worlds most famous brands abound with knockoffs, that are just another item for a buck to be made.
With trade trust in one of the disciplines.
However not blind trust.
The Trump administration, is correct to begin to the process to bring that discipline back into focus.
24
The arrest of Ms. Meng is likely a pivotal event in our relationship with China. To the extent that she and her company have been stealing American technology or selling high tech items to parties that were expressly forbidden, this kind of action is 20 years too late. Anyone who has paid attention to China's behavior over this period has noticed that these sorts of technology theft have been going on all along, with no president, no Congress, willing to seriously demand it stop.
While I agree with very little this administration is doing, this is kind of aggressive defense of our legitimate interests that ought to have been done long ago. I suspect that the lure of profits to be made from access to world markets, leveraged by cheap Chinese labor and lax environmental regulations was too tempting for US corporate interests.
138
@Hydraulic Engineer
I disagree with the assertion that other presidents have not addressed aggressive Chinese competitive tactics. Under President Obama the TPP would have created a web of alliances which would have given us a powerful lever for opposing Chinese behavior.
I'm especially uncomfortable given that the president doesn't appear to have a consistent and well considered understanding of the dynamics at play. He prefers direct, and increasingly naked, confrontation. This could go exceedingly wrong.
56
@Fremont
TPP assumes these countries can move their goods. They cannot without China’s approval. 30 minutes after “Success” was radioed back to Tokyo after the Pearl Harbor sneak attack, Japan simultaneously invaded Hong Kong, Malaysia, Philippines. Today China simply has sealed off the South Asia Sea. China accomplished control without firing a shot. TPP is rendered useless.
5
Unfortunately the Chinese tiger is already out of the hi-tech bag and beyond our long-term control. Perhaps we should now try a bit of old-fashioned decency, as well as upgrading our own flagging STEM efforts (such as funding good basic research projects and investing in inadequate public schools).
34
@Paul Adams
Exactly. And what are the odds of our doing this, with our notorious aversion to taxes, long-term thinking, and science (no other major nation's governing party denies both climate change and evolution)?
13
What's useful to me about this article is that it gives the reader a sort of rare look at the dynamics driving Chinese behavior as she asserts herself in the world. Often, Chinese actions are reduced to decisions by Premier Xi, but this article makes clear that he does not have full freedom of movement, no matter the degree to which he's gathered the reins of control into his hands. There is a pluralistic push and pull going on there, and we here in the United States had better understand the way that works. Otherwise we're going to slide by inches into something pretty ugly.
11
The Chinese government behaves much like Trump-- Piling on attacks when they feel vulnerable and culpable. That is why the Chinese feel that Trump is a formidable opponent, whereas they have been taking past Presidents as fools.
In the coming weeks we will likely see China revert to its old Cultural Revolution-style rhetoric attacking America, that would a tell-tale sign of how scared they are.
As much as I disagree with much of the Trump Administration's policies, I am fully supportive of this. As a long time China observer and having lived in China, this tough stance is a long time coming and will not only help defend America but also the free and liberal world.
34
@Paul Reames
Yes go ahead and support a confrontational relationship with a super power. Remember how great it was in the 1970s when any say, we can see nuclear weapons falling on us. This confirmation will unlikely end in the same way as the Soviets given the multiple differences between China and USSR.
@HC
First of all, China's nuclear forces are pitiful (at least for now) compared to the U.S. A first strike could wipe out their entire land based nuclear forces which would force their leaders to either surrender or commit national suicide.
On a less apocalyptic note, China has an even worse strategic outlook than the USSR did, they are surrounded by American allies (Korea, Japan, India?) and despite their (illegal) occupation of the S. China sea are nowhere near to having secure access to their energy supplies in the mid-east (the USSR was at least self-sufficient in that).
Even covert (cyber) warfare for the Chinese may not be winnable. American chips are in every Chinese computer and phone and they run American software over internet protocols invented in America. Who knows if there are any "kill switches" (or worse, spying devices) implanted at the transistor or assembly code level? (And if there aren't, why are we spending so much money on the NSA?).
Still, just as with the Soviets, things are unlikely to get that bad. In which case it comes down to trade. Well, as the U.S. has just shown, American banking networks (and the govt.) are far and wide. They can stop trading with us but who will be hurt more? I'm not so sure even the astronomical amounts of debt owed to the Chinese is that much of a deterrent, the Fed could probably buy it back (see "quantitative easing").
So while things won't be pretty we'll win. Maybe not in 20 years though so do it now!
1
Are the companies mentioned in this article so big as to defy a national origin? How do you even define a corporate national origin? Are Boeing or Apple even American companies anymore?
8
A calculated move by Justin Trudeau?
3
NOT CHINA’S SANCTIONS!
How about US officials being arrested for violating Chinese sanctions? This is insane that the Trump admin believes they can now extend their autocracy to actual autocracies. Not going to end well because China’s been at this for 5,000 years and US just 2.
Trump should protect the farmers, take care of the folks who voted for him. He can’t even figure that out. Also, why do people still stick by Trump? When will the Republican party turn? Whichever GOP gets ahead of this and rises as the white knight to save the party and protect the people from Trump corruption will be the next Regan. Golden opportunity for GOP to claim moral highground. How myopic are politicians that they don’t see this wide opening?
28
"...his friends joked that they would no longer be able to send their children to American boarding schools and would have o invest in the Chinese education system instead."
What a concept. Please do.
96
@MS
American / Canadian university education is the Trojan Horse. Thousands of students return to China every year after having been taught to think independently. They experience freedom on a daily basis. Once experienced, it's hard to stifle that. You can suppress it, but eventually it will gain critical mass. These folks are too junior to set current Chinese policy. But they will have a favourable impact on Chinese policy in the future.
15
@Ed Bukszar
Yes just recently Xi became President for Life!? In my lifetime, Tianenmen Square happened and Hong Kong was given up.
It's going in the wrong direction.
8
@Ed Bukszar I believe Pres. Xi was educated in the U.S. Not working out for us is i?t..
8
Samsung's folding screen tech has been stolen and sold to China.
"https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/30/tech/samsung-china-tech-theft/index.html"
And, now Huawei is making a competing phone.
China is simply rotten to core.
36
@Amy Poor Samsung, which itself stole for 25 years everything from western and japanese companies. By the way: stealing IP is an accepted concept for 150 years to help develop poor countries which otherwise had no chance to develop. Though, for 15 years, China shouldn’t be seen as a developing country anymore.
2
I am sure the US does not take Ms. Meng’s arrests lightly. However, if Chinese believe that Ms. Mend was “abducted”, and incensed more so because she is the daughter of the legendary founder of Huawei they should think how American’s feel. American high tech industry’s “daughters”, radically new game changing technologies, developed by very hard work of many US entrepreneurs and corporations are frequently kidnapped with no trace or held for ransom with a promise of Chinese markets behind the bamboo curtain. To add insult to the injury these kidnapped offspring borne of American ingenuity and hard work are disguised and sold on the world market or made to work for the Chinese defense industry. If arresting Ms. Meng sends the right signal to China about the US sensitivities, then this bold and unprecedented step might be well worth it.
64
How safe are American investments in China?
The Chinese elite are very arrogant and selfish. A dose of reality would do them good.
42
@M Davis
For an American to describe the elite of another country as "very arrogant and selfish" betrays a stunning lack of self-awareness. A "dose of reality" would do our elite a lot of good, as well...
24
So Huawei in some way is allegedly guilty of breaking largely unilateral US sanctions against Iran and the US justice system always eager to go overboard when it comes to the Chinese (See almost all the arrests of Chinese Americans for espionage that got huge coverage and ultimately went nowhere) decides to make a very public arrest essentially requiring the company's Vice Chairman to do a perp walk rather than contact the firm with their concerns and desire to press charges. They could have contacted or arrested one of Huawei's many senior employees in the US but no they wanted Ms. Meng's head hanging on the wall. So if China decides to make its laws against selling weapons to Taiwwn extraterritorial and enforce them internationally and deicdes to arrest the CEO of Boeing the next time he visits China to see some planes we are all okay with this?
There is no question this was a carefully thought out play by US hawks to back China into a corner and sideline those who suport engagement over conflict on both sides. Ideally, the Chinese won't rise for the bait. This is what happens when the lunatics are running the foreign policy asylum.
81
@Belasco If the Chinese had negotiated an agreement with Boeing in which Boeing agreed that in order to do business in China, they would not deal with Taiwan, then they would have a right to arrest a Boeing executive if they had proof this was violated. China does not have such an agreement with Boeing. The US does have such an agreement with Huawei.
19
Same kind of issues are occurring in China where, thankfully, most diplomats at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are still able to prevail cooler heads. But there are hawks back home who are willing to go back to the 60s just to ensure that no one is going to stop China on her road of world domination. Most Chinese never wanted that, we are glad to see the rejuvenation of our nation, but never as the “World Police”. I’m glad to see there’s still people like you in the US who’s educated and capable of independent thinking. We need to talk to each other, and enough with the ignorance and hate.
9
@Belasco You should read NYT"s update to this story. This arrest is for violations of sanctions in place from 2009 - 20014, i.e., when Obama was President (and did zilch about it). And, authorized by the UN.
8
At least China has an intelligent person in charge. Everything Trump touches dies.
21
@Keith Dow
There really shouldn't be any finger pointing when it comes to this matters. Both parties have messed up in dealing with China. Time to fix it. China is against whatever the Western world stands for.
4
Stealing, tricks, corruption are part of
Chinese life in this ‘low trust’ society, as NYT reporter Thomas Friedman calls it. Everyone who has lived and worked in China knows this. The arrest is a snowflake on the tip of an iceberg. That American consumers build the military of a totalitarian aggressive regime which has USA in its gunsights is incredible. China killed its first Nobel Peace laureate recently. Wake up people.
142
Those of us who live in British Columbia would be very, very pleased if the Chinese elite decided that Canada is no longer a safe haven for their stolen government billions and their millions made off of slave labor. If nothing else, if they pull out of Canada, maybe our insanely speculative real estate market might drop back into the 'affordable' category. Canadians are about to go under from the financial burden of paying more than 70% of their incomes for housing! Many are piling up credit card debt as they try to pay off high mortgages AND feed their families. And speculation from 'off-shore' -- i.e., Chinese nationals -- is a root cause of the price hikes since 2014.
182
So let's examine this message for a minute - did Gaston want Canada to arrest one of China's leading figures not for breaking Canadian laws, but to help the US - risking escalating a big time political and economic conflict between the US and China - in order to lower the prices of Vancouver real estate? What a way to do it !
27
This is strange but true. 2015 the offshore and rich owners of a new and ugly McMansion next door to my old house had the city of Vancouver turn off my water...I am a causcasian female and a senior. I had to pay $42 to recommence it. This year, in early July tenants in same house stopped my mail delivery. They are immigrant...presumably...Chinese. Only the legal resident of a property can do that. I am having a hard time being believed on my complaint. For an unrelated reason I am no longer living there so it is moot. The house has a 4 car garage filled wirh high end cars! and often seems unoccupied. Recently BC had to drop a huge money laundering legal case for as yet unknown reasons. This was against off shore Chinese. One huge issue is their money laundering in our casinos which gets poured into the real estate market.
61
@Gaston
There's an article in today's Vancouver Sun indicating that Meng owns two houses in Vancouver: one bought in 2007 for $2.7m and another in 2015 for $15m.
25