Dear Realist - you are NOT a realist. If you have never met a woman who wants to be a plumber, carpenter, concrete pourer or other trade or armed service, you have been living in a cave for a very long time. You mention Rosie the Riveter - just read the stories about many of those women. They were more than annoyed when they were replaced by the men coming home from war. The opportunities are still terribly unequal; treatment in the workforce is still unequal and women can and will and WANT to do whatever they can to make a good living for themselves and their families.
3
I've never once met a woman who wants to be a plumber or pour concrete. Gender work roles are not just social constructs of an oppressive patriarchy, they are evolutionary traits that go back millions of years. You can't just "fix" them with 50 years of pontificating. Since Rosie the Riveter, our society has achieved wonders by introducing women into the workforce, but millennial women have next to no interest in backbreaking labor like construction or combat. The opportunities are more equal every year, but the desire and inclination are not.
2
EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES at work & home!! If some one is Qualified and ALBE to do the work required and willing to follow the rules they should be allowed to.
God created two genders with complimenting abilities to ENHANCE life, sadly some use this difference to oppress others. So sad. Our family lives in a rural environment, some chores are just to physically difficult for my body. I do white collar work he does blue collar. So I'm quite happy with my husband picking up 2 cords of wood while I cook us a big pot of stew. Child rearing is not a 9-5 job that starts an ends. Its 24/7. If the husband happens to be the sole financial source. When he comes home he should recognize they are BOTH tired, not just him....so...let's do the rest together. Couples that work together stay together. Viva La Difference! Viva La Amour!
2
I am an excellent cook, and find that is always a good motivator to get him to pick up a vacuum. I kid, not all men are alike, not all women are alike. Learning the art of negotiation is helpful.
2
Truth is absolute for all time. By aligning ones self to truth, the individual is aligned to God, and so will always be correct!
The truth is that male-female equality is achieved only when the male places the female's needs for security and commitment above his own base desire, proving that he loves the woman more than his own flesh.
If the man is willing to wait until the couple is safely within the bonds of sacramental matrimony, he makes the woman equal to himself.
The woman achieves equality with the man when the true desires of her heart are fulfilled; to love the man, please the man, serve the man, to bear and nurse the man's offspring, and to submit to the man's yoke in cheerful obedience all the days of her life!
The woman is called to conceive, bear and nurse the man's offspring while the man is called to inseminate the woman. So, the man has all kinds of time on his hands to go out and make a living.
Since the woman's role in reproduction requires about 70,000x the time investment of the man's, she should be exempted from the economic workforce during her season of fertility!
If you ask most women, they would all be happier with a loving husband, and staying home with their children—as God intends for the female—and being rid of the impossible task of caring for a home, children and working full time while chasing after some contrived measure of "equality" that was dreamed up by those who hate God and nature!
1
This is a reason for a woman who wants to pursue a career (rather than a series of jobs) to consider a child free life.
4
@Cal
A career is a facade. Working 80+ hours/week for a company that does not care about you will not bring you fulfillment. No one sits on their deathbed thinking how great their career is. Most people find their highest levels of fulfillment from forming healthy pair bonds with their children and families.
2
What almost all studies of the sort quoted in this article never include is : to what degree is the measured disparity between male and female 'housework' the result of females placing a higher bar on the optimum ... I could keep going on like this or just ask the question:
Why do women want to set higher standards than men ~ no matter how high their's may be ~ and follow you around cleaning long before you would think it requires cleaning ? !!!
2
In 20 years of relationships with men, I have never found it to be the slightest problem to get them to do the bulk of the household/domestic work. Just don't do it yourself, and tell them to do it. Oh, and be the one who earns more money. Simple. I've never even had to have a conversation about this, it just happens naturally when you're the one contributing the most financially.
I don't cook at all and do very little cleaning. When we have guests over, my boyfriend does all the cooking, serving, and cleaning up. And I have never had a single man make a disparaging or negative comment about it, but I HAVE had other women make snide or disapproving comments implying I'm lazy or "should" be helping him. So I have to wonder who exactly enforces these supposed rules.
Also, divorce gives the big lie to this stuff. Both my divorced parents *everything* themselves when I was a kid. They both worked full time and did 100% of the domestic work in their own households. I lived with them 50/50. And while they maintained similarly sized homes in similar locations, my mom's standards for cleanliness, meals, and appropriate activities were MUCH higher and so she would complain, criticize, and nag me way more, and my dad's house was just much more laid back and enjoyable to be in. But they both controlled their own domain.
You can't really blame others for being content with lower standards than oneself.
3
@kryptogal
Krypto then says to all the women posting here, and not posting here, that make less money than husbands or other domestic partner, accept a much higher domestic workload or get out.
That is a breath of fresh air, or a very cold wind. I don't think that most women posting here, or not, think that way.
@kryptogal
'In 20 years of relationships with men, I have never found it to be the slightest problem to get them to do the bulk of the household/domestic work. Just don't do it yourself, and tell them to do it. Oh, and be the one who earns more money. Simple. I've never even had to have a conversation about this, it just happens naturally when you're the one contributing the most financially'
This is the exact advice I would give men. Be the breadwinner and do not give into women's trivial, emotional and illogical complaints and criticisms. If you give into her demands she will actually lose respect for you and look at you as weak.
1
@kryptogal Some of us would find living among lower standards of cleanliness to be stressful and unpleasant.
A picture I am getting in this thread is that work that is highly stressful requiring irregular hours/effort is more appreciated and more highly compensated, that work outside the home is more highly paid and preferred by men. Apparently, it is more highly appreciated by our society. At home the roles are often reversed. That kind of work is more often borne by women with the more predictable domestic work often done by men. Am I on or off the tracks here?
It should be obvious where I am going with this. The home-workplace analogy falls apart because no one gets paid to do stuff at home. The woman’s traditional contribution to domestic life is, however, more highly appreciated and valued in that way. I see that over and over here. Women’s housework is more important than men’s “puttering around the house”.
Why that reaction? I know that some women feel threatened if someone questions that higher value or tries to take on those tasks proving they are not so special after all. Do they see value diminished and feel that they can’t get it back in the workplace? Many women say that they are not offended by domestic assistance from men. I believe them too. Some of them, however, persist in devaluing men’s traditional contributions. Why? Has our whole society become so Trump-like that we can't grow without diminishing others?
@Peter
Interesting take.
The way women's contributions have been undervalued in the workforce is analogous to the way that man's contributions have been undervalued in the home.
So simple it feels natural, inevitable, even obvious.
Perhaps this lack of appreciation of men in the house is why, as put by Claire Cain Miller in the article, "the path to equality [for women] seems in some ways to have stalled."
I'd be very curious to hear Claire Cain Miller's reaction to this idea.
1
@TJ I have not read Miller. If the path to equality has stalled, it may be due to an inevitable characteristic of movements as they mature. The union movement is an example. Don't get me wrong, I would not want to be part of a society where labor unions were not part of the landscape. They've done a world of good for workers over their history. I was part of a union. It was the one with the worst reputation for corruption and my local must have been the worst local wrt service to the members.
Any successful grassroots organization changes character with growth. The management is given over to professionals and it no longer in the hands of the people it is supposed to benefit. What's wrong with that? The pros manage for their own benefit, not the members. Rather than finding solutions through compromise keeping conflict low, the visibility of the pros is enhanced by higher conflict. They start the fires that they put out so they can be heroes.
Ask yourself, are women's organizations stronger and more effective now, when they were striving for suffrage, or sometime in between? One way between the horns of the apparent dilemma is for the membership of organizations to elect their leaders from their membership, non professionals, for limited terms. The organization's operators are akin to civil service employees. They don't make policy. You do have to watch for overzealous operators exerting influence on weak elected officials.
I always find these types of articles interesting. I opted to have my two children via sperm donation. I am raising them alone so obviously I do all the work at home, in all areas. I have many friends that are married and the women tend to do a much larger share of the domestic and child care chores. They are constantly unhappy about that and it seems to cause many arguments in their households. In my case I do all the chores but I am not unhappy about it and there is no resentment. I think the problem most women have with it all is not that they are doing the chores, but that they resent the fact that no one is helping when they thought they were signing up to be in a partnership.
8
@MaryEllen
I wouldn't be at all surprised if these women of whom you speak are largely unaware of the efforts their husbands are making to keep the house running, even if not in domestic and child care chores. Perhaps they should address their unhappiness and resentment by looking more for ways to be appreciative of the role their partners play, rather than focus on what the men are not doing. After all, they signed up to be in a partnership too.
3
@MaryEllen
You still rely on men. Thank God for the men who build roads and homes, and ensure you have food and water, gas, electricity and plumbing.
@TJ The 70s called. They want their copy of "The Total Woman" back.
1
The authors of this article continue the promotion of the notion that there is a pay gap between men and women. While it is true that men make more money than women this fact does not take into account the type of work that men and women chose to do. Men work longer hours and typically chose professions associated with things; women chose professions associated with people. Professions associated with things like engineering and construction pay more than professions associated with people like social work and teaching. The men on the extreme of the money curve who distort the average that these authors point to are driven men who work 70 or 80 hours a week, something few people, and fewer women, want to do. So let's stop with this pay gap nonsense, please. Inequality in one form or another will always exist because in any human endeavor worth doing, the majority of the work will be done by a small minority of those involved. In fact this principle can be reduced to a formula: the square root of the number of people involved will produce 50% of the desired result. So if there are 100 people working, 10 will produce half the result. That is because people, as individuals, have different levels of talent, intelligence and motivation. That is human nature, folks, so let's stop fighting reality.
4
@Louis Genevie
Thank you. The pay gap makes absolutely no logical sense and its ridiculous that it is still being perpetuated. It relies on the premise that business owners are willing to lose gains and are intentionally throwing away money (by paying men more than women) when a less-costly alternative exists, which goes against the number one goal of a company to make as much money as possible.
Why would any company hire a male and pay him more when they can hire a female and pay her less? If I am a CEO why would I not hire all women and save on payroll costs?
2
@Louis Genevie Women do not necessarily choose careers that are 'people oriented' or 'nurturing'. Some men are more nurturing or people oriented than some women.
My understanding regarding the pay gap is that it is primarily due to women dropping out of the workforce to have or raise children or being perceived as less career oriented due to having children.
@Cal
'Women do not necessarily choose careers that are 'people oriented' or 'nurturing'. Some men are more nurturing or people oriented than some women.'
If they are left to pick their natural inclinations, yes they do. Of course some men are more nurturing than some women but exceptions do not disprove the general rule.
As a 42 year old man with a working wife and school-age child, I definitely see this as true among my friends and neighbors. I can't say I was super-surprised to see this among couples where the wife stays home, but I continue to be astonished by how many dual-income couples have such old-fashioned division of labor at home. Even in couples where the wife has just as "high-powered" a job as the husband, may even make more than the husband, my wife and I know couples where the husband expects a homecooked meal every night when he gets home, and puts his feet up after dinner while the wife does the dishes. My wife tells me stories of several of their coworkers whose wives do everything involving child care, and my response (tongue in cheek) is "what's his secret? You'd never let me get away with that." Guys, step up.
In partial defense to men, however, as a father who believes in equal responsibility in child care, and who actually does more at school and extracurricular activities than my wife does (she does more than I do in other areas) because I am more outgoing and enjoy volunteer work more than my wife, I often don't feel very welcome in situations that are traditionally "mom's domain", especially as a father of a daughter. Girl Scouts, not just locally, but even at the national level, is not very welcoming to fathers (while boy scouts is much more inclusive), and the SAH PTA moms can be downright vicious to a dad who dares take a little time off work to help out.
17
Schools, which are full of women who work outside the home, either as administrators, teachers, clerical workers or cafeteria workers, still seem to think that the rest of us are SAMEs and able to drop in during the school day for meetings, pick-up and drop-off, or help out in the classroom. Some of us can't drop everything and risk alienating our bosses and coworkers in order to rush to school over something minor. Like the administrators, teachers, clerical workers and cafeteria workers, we need our jobs to support our families.
2
While it is encouraging that there is now more support for gender equality in the workplace, there can be no gender equality in the workplace if women are not equal to men in every context outside of the workplace - home, family, reproductive rights, healthcare, legal status, etc. Period. Any context in which women or any other underrepresented group is viewed as "second class" because of unequal dignity and fairness in other contexts will inevitably itself fail to be equal. Furthermore, broad generalizations about what men and women are "good at" are just that - broad generalizations. Views about what men and women are "good at" are the product of centuries of socialization; they are not supported by biology. The only difference between men and women is that women gestate babies and men don't. Beyond that, there is no basis for disparate treatment of men and women or boys and girls.
5
@R A Davis
What context are women not equal to men outside the workplace?
Socialization and biology are often complimentary, not contradictory. Socialization does not just appear out of thin air. And there are many differences between men and women if you have ever heard or something called hormones and have learned how they significantly impact the physical, mental, emotional and social behaviors of both men and women.
1
@R A Davis
The fact is, current research shows clearly that men and women are different from a very early age. And the more a society tries to eliminate the differences, the more pronounced they become. This finding which has been replicated again and again and shocked the researchers who were expecting the opposite to occur. Check out the research and start thing straight about this issue for all of our sake, especially the children. This idea that we are all the same is absurd on its face. How do you explain the studies of very small children given inappropriate gender based toys for example? Boys given dolls to play with end up tossing them around and using them to fight one another. Girls given cars and trucks tend to organize them and create cooperative games with them. Study the research and try to form opinions based on reality, not ideology.
2
@R A Davis There are many differences between the sexes generated by social forces. Some of them are about power. Some of them are, historically at least, about survival of the family and other social units. Most of the latter are probably outdated. Some are outdated by centuries and others for far less time.
That expressed, I'll put it more directly than some others here. Anyone who believes that evolution based on natural selection does not make for sexual dimorphism and behavioral differences is ignorant, by accident or by choice.
Should boys and girls in particular be treated similarly? I think so, and their natural preferences and talents should be allowed to develop as individuals. (By natural, I mean individual, not anything to do with gender.)
Should adults be treated differently based on gender? We seem to have a vary difficult time with that. Underappreciated, I think, is the fact that some women think that their tribe should be doing more domestic duty and are better at it than men. Some people are just as confused and surprised about them as they were when Donald Trump was elected carried with so many votes from women .
In every relationship that I've been it, there is a division of labor at home.
I kill the spiders, take out the trash, mow the lawn, clean the gutters, deal with vermin et cetera. I do the dirty and/or dangerous jobs.
In addition, when I have asked "Would you like me to work less (and make less money) so that I can devote more time to household chores?" the answer is always the same. "No!"
Follow the money and everything makes sense. That is how capitalism works.
2
I do more housekeeping than my husband for the simple reason that I can't hang sheet rock or go up on a three story ladder to paint the house. He spends just as much time and effort moving the ball forward for our family as I do, its just that he does different things. Financially our salaries and professions are comparable. There would be no way, however, that I would be cooking cleaning and schlepping kids around while he sat on his duff watching sports.
6
I work longer hours and make more money than my husband. And we both engage in child care and house keeping. He does more child care than I do during the week and I do more on the weekend.
As for dishes and laundry and grocery shopping and cooking, we both do our part, sometimes he does more, sometimes I do more. We also got married in our 30s, both of us had our own homes when we met and both of us were fully functioning adults. I pay all the bills and manage the money, he does a lot of the outside tasks. I do more emotional work, making appointments, planning the holidays, planning the birthdays, sending cards and photos.
I have found the best trick in keeping things equal is to simply not step up all the time. My husband figured out a long time ago that if he wants to eat he will have to do most of the grocery shopping and cooking.
6
@Sammy I think the having lived on your own thing is a big part of it, people don't get married right out of school as much as they used to, so less and less men go from being taken care of by their mothers straight to being taken care of by their wives. By the time I met my wife when I was 27, I had been doing my own laundry since junior high, and cooking for myself every night since I was a junior in college. As soon as my wife and I got married, she went back to school nights to respecialize her PhD, so I was picking my then-6 year old stepson up from afterschool care, getting him fed, bathed, to bed every night. It never occurred to me to expect my wife to cook for me or do my laundry.
5
Yes, of course, if earning is shared equally, then household responsibility should be shared equally as well.
And, also of course, such 'household responsibility' should include traditional male responsibilities around the house as well, which it appears this study did not include.
Equal could look like equal shares but in different spheres.
But, half of mine and all of yours does not sound like equality.
@TJ II'm chuckling because the article is as sexist as heck and leaves out the choices women make to engage in sexist choices by waiting for men to ask them out and pay their way. These are "provider" seeker choices. A woman friend told me in her view, it should be equality when it suits her and sexism also when it suits her but she doesn't want to oppress men. She wanted a man who would "naturally" prefer that arrangement.
She was quite typical for most of the women I knew from the states in my life. Women outside of the states were also sexist, but at least more realistic and honest about their expectations.
Feminism claims that it is trying to re-engineer humanity but it just doubles down by calling for socialist programs to help single women who are unable to procure such men and substitute as husband. In the meantime, men are also blamed for being "privileged" if they bring home the bacon (and punished) OR rejected and dehumanized if they don't (regarded as losers).
Hilariously, the modern leftism embraced by the NYT calls for importing immigrants from the most patriarchal cultures imaginable. In a way, I want to roll out the welcome mat for them.
That's probably because the more liberty you give men and women the more we instinctively choose to do things best suited for our given natures.
We aren't the same. Get over it.
1
@Douglas
Ahh the ol' " It's not in a man's nature to do laundry. Like biologically, he just isn't meant to sweep," approach. Sure dougie.
5
@Douglas I, the man, am the one who kills the bugs, does any plumbing or mechanical repairs around the house (and a little light electrical), because I am better at those things, but at the same time my wife does the powerwashing and pays the bills and manages the finances because she is better at those things. And I'm the better cook (especially for entertaining), and when my daughter was a baby I did bathtime with her because I enjoyed that time with her while my wife hated it. "we aren't the same" and what is "best suited for our given natures" should be based on individual natures, not dated, sexist, arbitrary ideas of what men are "best suited for by nature" vs what women are "best suited for by nature."
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@Mark
Yes, agreed. The Times liked your pick too, sure.
But why do you present your ideas as contrasting @Douglas. Nothing he said contrasts your points.
Instead, your comments provide a better counterpoint to the original article.
How people live at home is no one's business but their own.
This nonsense about "equality of roles" in the home is just more meddling in people's private lives.
A couple years ago, they tried to say that women should be paid to take care of their own children and prepare meals that they eat themselves.
Rubbish!
@Alan
It figures that a man would say this, and I am guessing an ugly divorce may have colored your somewhat ugly viewpoint. Adults can certainly choose how to manage their interpersonal relationships, but to assume that each is equal in negotiating that situation would be an error, as would assuming that each would be ecstatic to maintain the balance that exists at one point in a relationship for an eternity (or something close to it).
For the record, the argument a few years ago was NOT that a woman should "be paid to take care of their own children and prepare meals that they eat themselves." Instead, it was that women who did not work outside of the home -- usually at the behest of their traditional male spouse who requested they give up careers for family --should be credited the value of full-time childcare, house-cleaning, laundry services, and meal preparation when faced with a spouse who leaves and claims that the wife put "nothing" into the marriage and is, therefore, entitled to nothing upon exit.
4
@Alan Except to the point that women are unhappy and overburdened by their extra home workload but feel they can't fight against traditional gender roles.
1
It's one's own fault if one chooses to tolerate inequitable dynamics. People settle. That's their bed.
2
I see a new way of guaranteeing gender equality in the home and in the job market. Women should marry women and have children via artificial insemination. Then, the "mother" who takes up the bulk of childcare and housework should transgender to become a man. Her partner should remain a woman and keep working. If enough women do this, I am sure the gender gap in all areas will disappear.
3
My favorite Gloria Steinem quote: "Women are not going to be equal outside the home until men are equal in it."
5
@Erin
Gloria Steinem sure was ahead of her time, recognizing that men are often not equal in the home.
Children, though, they've always known. Ask any kid across America who is in charge in the house, mom or dad?
@Erin
Gloria Steinam is STILL correct!
The real problem lies in men's refusal to accept an equal responsibility for the household (as if they are not a part of it...). Women will be hard pressed to change this reality.
2
@Elizabeth Men are very clever. They can know how to fix a car or a computer, and yet pretend that they don't know how to work a vacuum cleaner, a washing machine, a dryer, the dishwasher or a stove. They can get out of taking out the trash because they are "afraid of spiders." They can get out of mowing the lawn because of "allergies." Their wives can call them on this BS, or decide that this not the hill they want to die on, that it is too much trouble and takes too much time to argue with them, and just do it themselves, anyway.
1
There's a reason I'm childless by choice. Every person whose career I admire was either a single man or woman or a man who basically kept his bachelor lifestyle. Especially here in Utah, there's no way I would roll those dice.
And to the men complaining about women "victims" who are somehow also plotting through "OCD" to take your money and run (or is it control the laundry schedule?): as a free agent woman, I couldn't care less about domestic stuff like cooking and decoration, and would want a partner who has a similarly fulfilling life. A big part of why I plan to relocate to a bigger city!
5
@Charly Definitely get out of Utah, that whole state is stuck in the fifties - the eighteen-fifties.
2
Men and women have equal intelligence. According to Forbes report on the 400 richest Americans, "most of the country’s wealthiest females inherited their fortunes from husbands, fathers and grandfathers. Only 1-2% of wealthy females are self-made."
Perhaps if all the business and government leaders in the world had been females instead of males.....then females would have prevented WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, and the little fights in the Arab countries from ever occurring. Correct? Or are females just as angry and warring as males? In terms of human behavior, the more things seem to change....the more they remain the same. Correct? Then some will say, "no hope left for humanity." But actually there is hope if you believe in God. That hope is great for Christians. So what hope is there for atheists and agnostics??? Is this why separation of church and state exists?
@manoflamancha
Maybe, but then we would probably still be living in mud huts. You cant cherry pick the horrible things men have done without crediting them for all the things they have created and contributed to the world.
@Manny
I'd take mud huts over war mongering any day of the week.
"You cant cherry pick the horrible things men have done without crediting them for all the things they have created and contributed to the world."
Yet the standard is different for women. That's evident in your post.
Single mom here. This entire topic is irrelevant. I do everything.
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@Sheri
Whenever I see or hear that identity, "single mom", I think that we need a better set of descriptions. Single mom covers a list of quite disparate conditions. It is too broad. Maybe single mom never had the inseminator in the picture, was married to or otherwise cohabitating with the inseminator and now separated completely with no contact or support, was married to or otherwise cohabitating with the inseminator and now has help supporting the children via monetary returns or custody arrangements, or some shades of support that can't think of.
Without being taught to, my boys have started saying to me and my husband: "Thanks for making dinner." It's so sweet, and it gives me hope. By the way, they do the dishes.
6
I do online dating in NYC. All women seem to seek is height, good looks, confidence, and financial success. Fair enough, but no women ever talks about any qualities that make for a good co-parent or good co-habitator. It's always about being tall, dark, handsome, and, well alpha. At least, that's true in NYC. In all sincerity, women make it sound like all a man has to do is to contribute genes for height and good hair. Most men who use online dating feel like they are being evaluated more as sperm donors and less as future husbands, fathers, and future co-livers. Men feel like it's more important to work on their hairstyle than their co-parenting skills. In Manhattan my part), most of these guys are former athletes who've been treated like prodigies all their lives. or they are finance kings who've been richly rewarded for ignoring other people's needs and feelings. Men feel like being good IN a relationship grants them absolutely no advantage in getting a woman. It's all about height, looks, and income. Conversely, women seem to think or believe that men, when searching for a wife (not a hook-up), are looking for women with good parenting/domestic skills. You can't expect guys like Tom Brady and Thor to wash dishes. Guys wouldn't expect Adriana Lima to wash dishes, unless he wanted to instragram herself doing so. Anyhow, maybe life outside NYC is different.
4
Yeah, too bad women in NYC are so shallow and focused on looks. Unlike the men, right?
13
@KSN
Men are shallow too, but, like I said/implied, men don't expect attractive women to do any housework or to cook.
I'm very superficial. I'm not judging anyone. I'm basically saying you can have a hot spouse or a spouse who cleans and cooks, but not both. If you have a hot husband who does clean and cook, chances are that he's unemployed.
I live in Manhattan, because I celebrate the culture of shallowness. I've considered moving to LA.
4
Manhattan is different.
Check with a queens or bronx guy!
2
I think we are going to get full equality only when men can breastfeed and when there is safe, inexpensive way to inject them with massive amounts of oxytocin upon the birth of the child. Then, they will have to and want to stay at home as much as women after the birth of their children. Let's cross our fingers for the speedy development of these technologies from genetic engineering.
2
@ett Fat chance for all that unnatural biological manipulation when we can't even tell women that a huge amount of breast cancer is likely due to reduced and delayed child bearing.
No one, I Mean NO ONE really wants to do scut work or be the drudge, whether it be doing dishes, laundry or diaper changing. The farm out, if one can afford, it goes to guess what? - other women. Men are selfish, privileged, want service and see themselves as above this kind of work.
A man doesn't need direction as to when the dishes/laundry etc require cleaning or kids need care. One look, should he be bothered to cast it, would tell him what needs be done sans instruction. Would he behave this way on the job, asking his boss or co-worker what he should do next and how to do it correctly?
Of course not as he would be regarded as lacking insight and initiative and requiring too much guidance.
Cease the excuses fellas cause that's what and all it is.
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@Sza-Sza
I'm a straight, married man and I do the dishes and laundry in our household. I think in general we split household chores pretty well.
3
@Z Well, obviously you're not one of the fellas who make excuses or is selfish or privileged. Good for you. Fortunate for your wife.
3
@a.h. Yes, he is one of the "good ones".
American MEN Value Equality at Work More Than Equality at Home
There, fixed it for you.
6
Equal roles at home? Dream on. My wife refuses to let me do the laundry or the ironing (convinced I’ll mess it up.) Gentlemen, I highly recommend marrying slightly OCD Austrians. I’m told the American version works pretty well, too.
1
@John D If you can do it, her role is diminished as she loses her special nature as a woman. Try to pump up her confidence in other areas and she may be able to relinquish some of these duties to you.
Ladies, keep your income if your man doesn't want equal work at home.
11
The Times’ daily story asserting women are victimized by men. I’m soooo tired of being considered a member of a gender so weak or so unintelligent we are unable to stand up for ourselves.
2
@Carolyn I am so ready to move on to a post feminist time. Is that what you are expressing, Carolyn? My reaction to much that I see in current media is to sigh and say to myself, woman are on a higher pedestal than ever, Please let them get down and let them be people. We'll never get there if our refrain is "I am strong, I am vulnerable, I am woman"
I wonder if there was a subconscious reason why I married a Dutch guy? Our household duties have always been split and in fact, he probably does more because we run a business together and he knows my strengths and weaknesses ... don't count on me to make doctor's appointments or check in on kids' progress reports. I will, however, decorate for holidays :-). It's a sad state of affairs that the US isn't further along. I'm a financial planner and what typically gets "delegated" the men is the big-picture financial planning and we women need to remember that men are more risk-taking and we might assume we are taken care of in retirement or in the event of an early death or sickness, but by not partnering fully in the finances, I've seen too many women get caught off-guard. We all need to be full partners ... in life.
6
What is equality? I feel my husband and I are more equal than almost anyone else I know because we have equal amounts of leisure time. By being a stay-at-home parent I don’t have to work the so-called “second shift” of housework and childcare — that’s my first and only shift.
What I’ve seen with female friends and relatives is that a lot of women want to do all the traditionally female tasks — from bathing the baby, to shopping for gifts, to baking. Many women take pride in their house cleaning and want the laundry just so. Some feminists call this female gatekeeping and say women need to let go. I say maybe women need shorter work hours so we can enjoy domestic life (and still have time for hobbies and interests).
8
It is inefficient to have men and women do the same tasks in a relationship. It is also unlikely that men and women will have the same interests in entertainment, sports, politics, etc. A man should be a good man first and head of the family in a traditional way. A woman need to be a good wife and mother at home. Those qualities are not needed at work. While both can be great parents, a man should not try to be a mother and a woman should not try to be a father.
4
@Eugene Patrick Devany
I'm all for efficiency. Want to trade roles? I'll mow the lawn and you do the laundry, the shopping, the meal making. I'll make all the major family decisions and you can carry them out.
If you think gender roles are there for efficiency's sake, then you should be willing to reverse the roles and be happy about it. Otherwise, you're just a traditionalist trying to keep women in their "place": serving you.
16
@Eugene Patrick Devany Wow, there sure are a ton of sexist and ignorant commentary coming from the fellas with this article. I wonder why that is??
Men and women don't like the same entertainment? Seriously?
9
@Eugene Patrick Devany
"It is also unlikely that men and women will have the same interests in entertainment, sports, politics, etc."
Says who? I'm more of a football nut than most men
I know, and the only thing I watch on Bravo is Top Chef. I also dont own pots and pans or an iron. I'm a control freak about my laundry cause it's my clothes, but I grew up in a house where my mother detested grocery shopping and my father preferred to cook. And he worked an hour away, so we waited and ate later. 2 girls and one gay son and no one would say any of us are "traditional-" something my mother had a say in.
there are no "needs" for a man vs a woman in "roles," except what they and their partner decide. Like all things related to women's choices, it should be up to the people not society to decide.
also what about couples who dont want to be parents? then what happens to "roles?"
8
To me, the thing that is important is whether both parties are working equally hard, a balanced load, making the household run. I don't care whether that is keeping the car running, doing yardwork, home maintenance, keeping the computers running, paying bills, buying Christmas and birthday presents, cooking, laundry, taking care of the kids, or whatever. Traditional gender roles or not, makes no difference.
Of course, the out-of-home job (whether one partner or both) is the wildcard variable and has to be factored in. But the thing that is unacceptable is the inbalance of one person working one shift and the other partner working two.
23
@Madeline Conant
Bravo! [or working not hard equally :) ]
1
I worked full time outside my home for decades with kids. Much of that time I had a commute of 1-2 hours each way depending on traffic and for years a bus.
I've broken down in tears in my office when the childcare quit with a phone call while on vacation. When a child had a fever of 102 at 6 am and I was desperately calling people because I would have lost my job if I hadn't gone in.
And while I was leaving at 7 am my husband was getting the kids up, making lunches, and taking them to school before going to his even more demanding job.
It doesn't matter if the kitchen floor isn't pristine. Or the towels are used a little longer than they should be. Or the sheets are changed after 10 days instead of 7.
What matters is everyone has something clean to wear. There's good food in the house. People are happy to see each other and like being together. Thar's what counts.
Endless calculations about minutiae--saying yes to a birthday party and buying and wrapping a gift, holiday menu planning and decorating, etc--don't help anyone. Neither does insisting--as an old friend did--that the kitchen floor has to be washed every day.
Are your kids generally healthy and happy? How about you and your husband? Those things count so much more than how to load a dishwasher.
16
Perfect comment! Agree completely!
1
"You can believe men and women have truly different natural tendencies and skills, that women are better nurturers and caretakers, and still believe women should have equal rights in the labor force..."
Yes, indeed, "equal" doesn't need to mean "the same". And to those who think this means women should stay home, to me, this observation mans we need more women in the politics and business. Those who nurture are more interested in improving standards of living than in amassing greater wealth than the next guy.
18
@Denise
We need more women trash collectors, plumbers, construction workers, stone masons, and sewage cleaners too.
@Manny
I think the unspoken concern is that it's dangerous for a female plumber to enter a stranger's house alone, or for a female trash collector to walk into alleys alone to collect trash. Some trash trucks are a crew of two working at 4AM. The city gov doesn't want to put women in dangerous situations. The internet cable guy might go down the building's basement for an hour to check wires. A woman doing that might be in greater danger than a man. My mailman is a mailwoman. But she delivers mail to doorman buildings during the day. There's always a doorman in the lobby.
2
@richguy
so women are prevented from working certain jobs for their protection, comfort and safety? who woulda thunk...
Things will not change until we stop asking women to take on more domestic responsibilities and men to take on fewer. In my own very liberal workplace, (we are all attorneys) the women are harassed and reminded to bring food to office potlucks, plan parties, and bake treats for bake sales. The men just have to show up with an appetite.
In my own domestic partnership, my partner does very little. I outsource the cleaning. I do all the errands and make sure that we have toilet paper. I do all the cooking and food prep. I like to eat healthy, non-processed foods. My partner takes the very self-serving position that my "standards" are too high. There is no need for clean towels and sheets and there is no need to clean the kitchen after using it. Neither of us should be preparing food. Instead, we should eat burritos every day and frozen pizzas so that we can nap or watch sports all day on Sundays and weeknights. I am resentful. The only way this is going to change is if boys see their mothers hold their fathers accountable and mothers make their sons do their fair share.
Btw, I earn three times as much as my partner and have significantly more job responsibilities. He is kind and can be generous. I make him sound awful, but, in my experience, he's very typical: a nice guy who can't be bothered to shoulder more household responsibility because not taking on responsibility is working out really well for him.
69
@Abby
I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like a partnership, or a very good one. Personally, if I made 3x the money and did 3x the work at home, I'd either strike, or leave for a better job.
20
@Abby Your story of domestic chore division is typical. I was in your shoes 20 yrs ago and also felt the resentment eating away at the love I held for my then live-in. I tried to solve this problem by coming up with a daily and weekly chore list that we divided equally; giving him the first choice on all the chores. After a month or so he pretty much stopped doing "his" chores and no amount of "discussion" helped. It should be noted that he was not one who was ok with living in filth. Long story short- the relationship didn't last long after this as I realized this man was not a true partner. I made most of the money, paid the bills, did the housework, the cooking, the grocery shopping and all the social planning. In a nutshell- I realized I didn't need nor want him.
36
@Abby You are 100% correct. I find myself in a similar situation. Resentment is toxic. I have raised my son differently, though, and so far his partner is very appreciative!
19
How many couples seriously discussed these things before having children?
4
@denise
It's an issue even when there are not children.
18
@Abby
It is very much an issue before having children.
What is clear from this article and the comments, is that we need to start bringing up boys differently.
1
@Linda Please give Denise a chance. Her comment is probably motivated by one or both of two things. At least two things come to mind. First, after children are introduced into a couples' life, a split-up becomes very complicated compared to before.
Second, adding children is like adding another, third at minimum, job to the partnership that has irregular hours and is time-intensive work. That is the kind of job that is often cited as sought more by men, and less by women but pay more resulting in a lot of the gender pay gap.
Most couples can have two jobs like that between them, not three, and be happy and sane. If you want two career jobs like that, one partner has to choose a career job that has regular hours, or have Golden Retrievers instead of children. Even the Goldens are a stretch and don't even think about any kind of sheep dog.
1
as long as there is a 15-20% pay disparity between woman and men, woman will continue to be the primary domestic care-giver. Simple math makes it almost economically unfeasible for systemic role reversal change.
9
@Steph G
The way to address the pay disparity would be for women to work outside more than men, work more hours, work nights more, move for jobs, work more dangerous jobs, work more physical jobs, work less fulfilling jobs, work more technical jobs, negotiate more, and not give birth to children so they don't miss work.
4
@Manny
So you’re penalizing us for propogating the human race? Gotcha.
1
@Manny
Woman do all those things and more before they have kids and still make less.
1
Clearly we need structural changes that support caregiving and value the unpaid labor that has often been performed under the guise of “love.” Societal changes move slowly, however; what I want to know is, what we can create right now within our own romantic relationships?
* Do hetero women not have any bargaining power in changing this dynamic (ie., do we feel free enough to state what we want and expect from a partner, even going so far as to reject him (pre- or post-marriage/commitment) if he’s not willing to commit to a mutually agreed-upon fair share of household chores and childcare)?
* Should whoever does the bulk of the home chores and childcare be compensated, whether in a "wife bonus" as Wednesday Martin wrote about in "Primates of Park Avenue," or a dedicated IRA in his/her name?
* I'm a big believer in relationship contracts, in which each person states what s/he will do in the relationship; it not only holds each person accountable, but it also forces couples to talk about difficult issues before committing and come to a mutually satisfying agreement.
6
@OMGchronicles the "wife bonus" method won't work if she is the breadwinner, no?
1
I do SO many things around the house that my wife simply refuses to do or learn how to do. Equality works both ways.
13
I once shared house with a fellow uni student guy - he was fairly handsome with a handlebar moustache - and he told me flat out that he intended to get married because he couldn't be bothered learning to cook for himself.
As a guy who had done my own cooking, washing, cleaning for years I was shocked.
Not I know his perspective is not uncommon.
9
For a long time, I out-earned my husband. After a child was born, I took advantage of my company's "flex time" policy for a year. But I realized that trying to have 80% of my very demanding career wasn't possible. My child still spent more time in daycare than not, so I wasn't doing what I was supposed to at home or at work. Eventually, my husband's career forced us to move, we had more kids, and I decided to become a consultant of sorts with very reduced hours. My husband has a very demanding work schedule and travels. He's tired and just doesn't have the mental bandwidth to do much at home after work. He frequently remarks at how disappointed he is that our roles have become so traditional. Frankly, however, even when I was working full-time, I handled a majority of the domestic and child-rearing duties. Funny how I could manage the cooking, dishes, and the kids' bedtime after a long day at the office, but he claims he can't!
87% of law firm partners have stay-at-home spouses (mostly wives). To "have it all" in a career, you must either pay someone else to do it all at home or have a spouse who does. Yet even when they believe that women should be equal -- like my husband -- men still aren't the necessary helpmeet. To change the status quo at home, I think there must be massive changes in the work-place. Neither gender should be required to have a stay-at-home spouse to succeed in his or her career. Americans work too much.
73
@Heather wow! I feel that I married the same exact man!
3
@Heather
I'm a law firm partner, and my live-in boyfriend does the bulk of the housework, as do the male partners of the other female attorneys at my firm.
Of the dozens of female attorneys I know in my city, only one married a man who makes more than her, and she complains NON-STOP about how she does everything. Yet that was her choice, to be in a couple where they earn more than half a million dollars a year. That isn't necessary, and certainly isn't something to complain about. The vast majority of female attorneys I know have male partners in much lower status and lower paying jobs, who can take on the bulk of the domestic work (some have full-time house husbands). And you're right that most of the male attorneys have stay at home wives. But why not? They can afford it. It's a luxury most couples cannot.
I don't really think your example of law firm partners is relevant, because their median salary is four times the national median salary, and quite a bit higher than that on the margins. It seems fair to me that they work a lot, given the high compensation. There are many less demanding careers with lower pay that an attorney could opt for.
There's no way I would live with a guy who didn't do most of the housework, if I'm making most of the money. What would be the point? It's less of a hassle to just live alone and pay for professional cleaning, laundry, meals, landscaping, etc.
2
All of my married women friends had fulltime jobs...but were still carrying the major load of domestic work on top of it. I can't think of a single husband who really pitched in at home.
What really surprised me was how many of my friends waited on their children hand, foot and finger, raising little princes and princesses (and practically guaranteeing future marital disharmony).
The ultimate was when I saw one mother - with a fulltime job outside the home - pouring the milk on her husband's and adult child's morning cornflakes as if neither was capable of lifting a milkjug themselves. We reap what we sow...
36
@Oriole Did your cornflake friend's mother have a carreer job? If so, she is certainly asking too much of herself and it is easy for hubby and the kids to go along blindly. The trouble is that she is blindly leading.
Cornflakes would have been a fantasy for my mom. (Actually an nightmare, that's not real breakfast. Although she was not a food Nazi, she was a dietician.) She did not, however, raise snowflakes. She said she was not going to be a short-order cook and we ate what she put on the table. Monday was scrambled eggs and toast, Tuesday was pancakes, Wednesday was fried eggs and toast, Thursday was french toast, Friday was poached eggs ON toast, Saturday was hot cereal. OK, Sunday was cold cereal.
When my dad retired years before she did, he became the breakfast guy and cooked for her request up to his best ability which was scrambled eggs on Monday...
1
I don’t let my husband get away with not doing his part! His natural proclivity at home is inertia. However, if told what to do, he is wonderfully productive. I never learned to cook so that I wouldn’t have to. He does all the grocery shopping, meal planning, cooking, school lunches, kitchen clean up, holiday baking, etc. He also does all exterior home maintenance, pool/lawn care, car maintenance. I do the laundry and all the banking/finances. I’m also in charge of communication with school, church, car pool, social coordination, play dates, keeping the calendar up to date for the kids’ sports, all of our doctors’ appointments, non-food holiday details (planning, gift buying, decorating). I do all the clothing shopping for the four of us and am the person who declutters our closets, donates toys/clothes, replaces worn linens, etc. We have a bi-weekly house keeper. The kids are now old enough that they help with laundry and school lunches, load/unload the dishwasher, set the table, clean their rooms, make their beds each morning, change garbage cans, etc. I am and will likely always be the one giving the orders, the one in charge of the ceaseless mental workload of running our lives. If I take my foot off the gas even for a second, everything stops. This means I’m a nag, or my husband is a third child or some twisted form of both. We both work full time in very similar and demanding jobs but he makes 30K more a year. It works for us but we are both exhausted most of the time!
27
@Cmd Hmm, husband brings home the money (at least 30k more of it), and wife spends it (fault groceries). That fits the stereotype. Trust me, I am not being negative here :-) Spending is hard work. I am a frugal person, my wife is a cheapskate. That leaves me with the responsibility of spending a reasonable amount for two people. That is a difficult task, especially with the spouse who thinks spending more than a couple of kilobucks on a used car is a bad move.
Do women really make most of the discretionary spending decisions? If the ratio of advertising to women:advertising to men is any indication, it is true. I did counts in my Sunday newspaper ads for several years before that feature started to decline.
Stereotypes aside, people are all so individual in talents and needs. Some people are at their best if they have someone nagging them, and don't mind it. Others are happy when they have someone to nag. Sometimes they find one another and domestic bliss becomes much more likely.
I'm always curious why same-sex couples is never part of these sorts of discussions/articles.
I've lived in all-female households more than once, and every single time the 'chores' are shared equally, even when children and house/yard maintenance chores are involved. A lot of time, they were done together, making it fun rather than a chore.
23
Ah yes, the unintended consequences of feminism smashing traditional gender roles and ‘the evil patriarchy’ and women pushing to enter the labor force after the agricultural and industrial revolutions (when jobs became much easier), which reduced the price of labor. Families now need two incomes to support a family because women wanted to compete with men for jobs, which increased supply of workers and drove down the price of labor. Now, families can not rely solely on one persons income in order to have a basic standard of living as wages have not kept up with inflation. So women feel overworked in the home and want to force men to step up while men also work more hours, work nights more, work outside more, work more physical jobs, more dangerous jobs to support their families. No wonder why women in the 60s had higher levels of fulfillment and happiness than women today.
9
@Manny
Lol. I think you got it backwards. Globalization, inflation, and technological innovation led to wage stagnation which resulted in the growth of the two-income household.
33
@Manny
Women in the 60s? It is to laugh.
9
@Ana
That does not disprove anything I said.
The main issue is the prohibitive cost of baby care and after school child care. In too many families one parent must switch to a part-time job or a fixed schedule job and end up with the majority of the house work, when the other parent is working extra-time to compensate.
Good news for America, there is a direct link between the proportion of female lawmakers and the cost of daycare, so things should change soon.
17
@Erwan so more tax dollars to support children raised by the state and the market?
2
Yes, taxes on the very wealthy are way too low. Mitt Romney, $63 million in income (one year's), paid 13% tax. This was reported when he ran for president. The wealthy have bought unbelievable tax cuts with their political donations. Start by increasing taxes on the rich!
19
@ac
How does that solve the problem young children being raised by an employee that does not care about them the way a mother can?
3
I am not surprised at this at all. My conclusion is much different than most. I have come to the conclusion that this is part of the reason that women's earning lag behind men's. What I have observed is not what you would expect. My observation is women in general have a significant role in equality at home not changing. Just a couple of points of many I have seen. One example is a study from about 2002 about why men don't do chores at home. They had an unexpected finding beyond what would be expected. One of the major reasons men don't do chores at home was to avoid arguments. The example they gave was if a man loaded the dishwasher the woman would complain about how it was loaded or reload it. It was easier to not do it and avoid the fight. I remember reading Ann Landers answering letters about this in the 70's and 80's. I have no doubt this continues to happen. In 2008 we decided I should stay home to care for sons 20 year after my brother did the same thing. It was common for men with children to say some thing like "I wish I could do that" while I literately had women stop talking to me when they found out I was a stay home dad. I was also told I could not join a stay at home mom's club at the grade school my sons attended. There was no father's equivalent, Talk about isolating. Currently leave for a new child men's average is 2/3 of women's One final thought, Sweden which has the best laws about equality at work still has a large age gap.
13
I've gone thru all that. Successfully. Put my marriage on line to make my time as precious as his. Nobody is going to free us, girls. I'm a baby booker.
2
For every woman who claimed that her BF or husband didn't do it 'right' and re-did it herself - you reap what you sow.
16
@SteveRR Or men could learn to do the work correctly, as their female significant others long have.
30
@ck Interesting how women can tell men what their rights and responsibilities are, but the reverse is not acceptable.
I cant wait for the day men can stay home and cooking and cleaning while women are out building roads, building, driving trucks, and collecting waste.
6
@ck
The issue is what is "correctly". Women feel quite entitled to state that their way is the right way, that their priorities are the right priorities...maybe because of a reluctance to give up the homemaker mantle?
3
Tasks usually end up divided by who cares more in the end. I will always clean more than my husband because I like things to be far more cleaner than he does. He will always cook more than me because I'm happy grabbing whatever from the store where as he wants a better meal.
If things are way too unequal and one is resentful over the other, that will cause issues in a relationship. However, so will keeping score and becoming resentful over small inequities. Its about balance.
In the end, its simply easier to live alone - that way there can never be inequality or resentment inside the home.
34
I was married for more than a decade to a man who paid lip service to the idea of equality but wasn't willing to do his share of the chores. We were both employed full-time throughout our marriage, earning similar amounts of money. At first I thought this would make us equal. It did not.
I didn't mind doing a substantial chunk of the cooking, cleaning, child care etc. but I did not want these chores to be mine by default. I thought *all* adults in a household (and kids as age-appropriate) ought to contribute to keeping things running. And that wives deserved to have free time -- I grew up watching my mom, who cooked dinner, play the piano every evening while my dad did the dishes, for example.
My spouse was never OK with a "you cook, I wash up" arrangement or any other approach to consistently trying to level out our daily contributions around the house. Nor did he understand that his unwillingness to invest his own time in the family's collective well-being substantially degraded my life and our marriage. We're divorced now, and my quality of life has greatly improved because I'm not doing ALL THE THINGS for a freeloader.
And the man in question is not yet 40. Young men can still harbor extremely misogynist attitudes and practices concealed under the surface of their feminist platitudes.
129
Men and women may have different views of what constitutes childrearing. “Yeah, I’ve been watching him all day; everything’s fine—nothing’s broken” may not be considered adequate.
19
I used to work at a four year college where I cannot tell you the number of times a mother would call me and her son would have a broken appendage and she would be asking assistance with doing laundry, which we didn't. Instead of having their son ask one of their friends for help many of the moms would say well maybe they can find a girl to do it for them. It first shocked me but gender roles haven't evolved that much and it starts at home with the expectations of our male spouses and relatives.
28
@MH
" it starts at home with the expectations of our male spouses and relatives."...
Yet, it was the mothers that were calling suggesting their sons find a girl to do the laundry for them. So, tell me again, with whom, at home, do the expectations start?
6
@Charles
With everyone, Charles. Dad is totally capable of inserting himself into that situation and saying, "Hold on. now. Son is just as capable as daughter of doing laundry." Better yet, he could lead by example. Siblings and extended family are welcome to pitch in as well.
4
As a Millennial who found out what happens when his egalitarian ideals run up against the cold hard reality of raising a family in America, this column really resonates with me. What my wife an I found after we had kids was that the division of household labor was largely negotiated for us by forces external to our relationship before we even sat down to talk about it. Let me explain.
After we married, but before having our first child, we evenly split housework. We both had demanding jobs, but there was still plenty of time left over to tackle the short list of domestic duties of two adults sharing a small apartment. Once we had kids though that all changed.
With kids, the list of things that needed to get done grew by 10x. There was no longer time for us to both have 50 hr/week jobs. So we have two choices: 1) hire help, or 2) have one person scale back their career.
Hiring help was prohibitively expensive, so on to option #2. At this point, I earn 150% of what my wife earns largely as a result of industry & occupational choice. Not only that, but my marginal return on additional hours is much higher. In my traditionally masculine career, 50 hrs/week is table stakes and compensation is highly performance based & variable. Her traditionally feminine career is is not this way. So, we make economically rational decision and divide the labor along traditional gender lines. And so it goes for many of our peers I'm sure.
24
@Gator
I have to speak up about your response, because it's frankly one that a lot young men make, and one that both partners end up regretting later.
Never assume your career is more important than hers because you make more money. This is a common mistake and an easy one BOTH genders make make early in life.
Traditional roles pay be less, but they are also more consistently paid. As you get older and older, those high flying, high paying jobs come with a lot of ups and downs and spaces in between.
Both my husband and I have advanced degrees from top schools and I don't know anyone in our age bracket 45+ that hasn't been downsized involuntarily at least once.
At that age and career stage, the job you need is not posted on a website somewhere. You're gonna need to go out and find it. And that will take awhile.
Her smaller, but steadier remuneration just might keep your health insurance needs met, while avoiding massive COBRA payments or even pay that mortgage or tuition during the inevitable down turns.
Do yourself a favor. Hire a housekeeper, even if the $$ doesn't make sense right now. Pay your SIL or a nanny part time so that your wife can maintain employment consistency, even if just part time. Think of it as a long term investment. Trust me on this one. And good luck.
93
@maryann
Thank you very much for the advice. It's appreciated and accurate. While I haven't yet had one of the downturns, we are aware it is only a matter of time/probability. Fortunately, at this point we've managed to increase our incomes to the point that we've been able to hire help. We split the remaining chores pretty evenly now, but my wife still handles a disproportionate share of the household management.
My wife never dropped out of the labor force, and still works full time in a job that is, as you correctly pointed out, more stable and secure. The big thing is that her job is actually a real 40 hours per week and no more, and has benefits. Not many fields anymore where that is the case. My job will never fall below 50 hours per week with any regularity until I change careers or retire.
For the time being however we are able to have our cake and eat it too. I realize how lucky we are, as even in our privileged position (both with grad degrees from good schools and years of experience) this wasn't always possible.
19
@maryann This is so true. Income earned does not equal importance! One day, the kids will be old enough to not need Mom (or Dad) as much for everyday things. Parents need to have respect for each others career aspirations. It's not all about money. I'm heartened to read Gator's response below....gives me hope for future generations!
7
I and many other men I know do most of the grocery shopping and cooking, lots of the cleaning, and ALL of the really difficult and dirty work in home repair.
But the latter does not show up AT ALL in this discussion. So I surmise that Ms. Miller and many of the female commentators here don't want equality, or fairness, but advantage.
It's natural to want the positives of traditional roles, but not the responsibilities. Still, men will know that this is about justice when we see women talking about the challenges that men face in the traditional roles.
As this article makes evident, that's not even a notion under consideration. "Men face gender challenges?"
10
@KAM Annectodal. Look at statistics, not what you and your friends do.
16
@KAM I think it doesn't show up in the discussion because you're the outlier. I know 1 husband who does the lion's share of cooking, cleaning and shopping but that's ONE. Every other woman I know complains that they do the majority of the household tasks, shopping, childcare, and the social calendar.
And that's another thing not even mentioned in this article--the emotional work. Who's going to go to the parent conference with appropriate questions, who's making sure homework is done, who's staying home if a child is sick, who's rsvp'ing for the birthday party and buying the gift, who's planning for the many days off from school? Who's making sure outside family is kept in the loop on family activities? Who's planning for holidays? Who's going to make sure everyone has shoes and winter coats that fit? For EVERY woman I know, it's all mom's job, no matter if there's paid help, no matter if they're SAHM or WOHM. Women are expected to do more and they DO do more, full stop.
My husband does all of the really hard and dirty household chores as well and I'm appreciative. But let me tell you, I would gladly work extra hours to pay to have it done if he would, say, take over keeping track of, scheduling and taking kids to doc appts. Just that alone would be huge! Those tasks take time and valuable mental bandwidth pretty much all year opposed to the 3 weekends he spent making a screen for our garbage cans. He doesn't have to worry about it getting done, and that's privilege.
52
@Christie
If a man were to take on all the roles traditionally handled by women, they would a) emasculate that man and look at him as weak, inadequate or not masculine enough b) complain that he does not perform traditionally feminine functions or tasks to her expectations, and/or c) complain that the man undermines her capabilities that he is invading the traditionally female domain
4
Proof of a real, dominant male is that he has others who do his menial chores, sweeping, washing, cleaning clothes, preparing food, etc. This also explains Trump's appeal to males who are insecure about their masculinity. I certainly wish our nation had the courage to pass the ERA in 1976. Half a lifetime of this misery might have been avoided.
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"Women; ... were most likely to believe in gender equality regardless of setting." Imagine that
31
So women are still separate but equal.
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@Kristin no longer separate, still unequal
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@ck
Nature says men and women are not equal.
@Manny. No, Nature does not say men and women are unequal. Please don't bring up the coal mining jobs again. I and most of my friends and family have advanced degrees and professional jobs. Men's greater upper body strength is not a factor in most professional occupations.
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"Yet some researchers were surprised that millennials weren’t more egalitarian." This seems an odd statement when the study has 77% of millennials as egalitarian.
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@Bebop There was actually a study that followed a group of millennial men for 10 year after college. They went from wanting to be in doing chores etc to not so much. Answer why and you are a long way to figure out the answer to this article.
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I find it interesting that just about any article about equality at home uses examples such as child-rearing and housework but not home maintenance jobs. I'm pretty sure those count as 'domestic work'.
I spend at least 50% of my weekend maintaining our house and yard. When my wife cleans gutters or paints ceilings I'll have more time to attend to the children, clean and shop. That would be terrific.
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@EPB
I know for a fact that this discussion hasn’t come up in just your relationship.
1. If you live in an apartment or condo, you don’t have exterior maintenance, but you still have household chores and child care. And women still do them disproportionately.
2. The thing about gutters and painting is that whenever there’s a football game on or something better to do, it seems like it’s okay for those chores to get done ‘later.’ Later is not an option for school drop off or laundry or dinner or shopping. It fact they are often interrelated and not parsable the way ‘weekend chores’ can be.
I can’t cook without grocery shopping first. I can’t do laundry until I pick up the kids from practice so I have their clothes. Most women would love to mow the lawn on the weekend in exchange for a week’s worth of sports practice taxiing. Ask. Really.
3. Is yard work a job or a hobby? My father loved caring for his rosebushes. As a matter of fact, I can’t remember anyplace he voluntarily spent his weekend afternoons during spring and early summer. Believe me when I say that your sock drawer and bathroom likely hold no similar fascination for your spouse.
My brother once admitted that he likes mowing the lawn because no one bothers him while he's doing it. Translation: he's not expected to multi-task while in the yard. No vacuuming while doing the laundry or running the dishwasher before taking the dog for a walk in time to unload upon return.
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@maryann I can say for certain that maintaining a 50 year old house is not a hobby. It is truly a second job, one left almost entirely to me. And that was the case before my wife returned to work.
In our house I do 99% of home maintenance, 75% of the dog walking, 50% of the cleaning, 50% of the shopping and 30% of the cooking. All while working 10-15 hours a week longer.
Yes, equality would be great.
My point is that any article like this should look at both sides of the coin.
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@EPB
There is a very big difference between minimum, time sensitive maintenance for a home (dealing with a plumbing leak) and home projects that are good to do, but not necessary (e.g. painting a ceiling) or necessary, but can be done anytime within a couple month window (e.g. cleaning gutters). Most home maintenance tasks are not in the first category.
Most of the work that falls disproportionately to women is in the time sensitive and necessary category, which means we cannot ignore the food, transportation, and hygiene needs of the family in order to knock the ball out the park during those critical times when it will be most noticed at the office.
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We split up household chores and childrearing in ways that work for us. I don't like shopping, my wife doesn't like laundry; whoever gets home first typically makes dinner; the kids clean up after meals (now that our kids are in university with varied schedules, they help with cooking too). I look after the garden/yard + household repairs and my wife looks after decorating + day to day tidying. For our kids, I coached their sports teams and we both chauffeured to appointments / classes. My wife is a teacher, so during vacation times, she often looks after more household activities.
My younger sister is in a more traditional type of marriage - it was many years before I learned that my brother in law tried to clean / cook early on, but was always told he didn't do it right or she would redo all the cleaning... eventually, he just gave up to avoid arguments.
I think it boils down to communication and expectations along with compromise and effort to support one another. Find out what works for best your situation and go with that.
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Household work is so enthralling, so fulfilling, so comforting that the first thing families do when they get some extra money is hire somebody to clean and do laundry.
It's no accident that men avoid household work, and the more they avoid it the more they try to convince their wives, or lovers, that the sexes are innately different, and the girls should just shut up and cook & clean.
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@camorrista. I’d guess that it is hired out most easily because it is the least expesive to hire out on an hourly basis.
@camorrista Housecleaning (not counting cooking, which can be fun and creative) is true drudgery. IMO caring for young children (diaper changing, etc) appears to be terrible drugery as well. Not surprising that many of us Millennials are avoiding marriage and children.
"one-fifth of men born between 1946 and 1980 said women should be more equal at work than at home — which for the men would mean benefiting from a second household income without doing any extra chores.
“At home, men are more resistant to that change because it really means surrendering privilege,” said David A. Cotter
this pretty much says it all.
my new favorite quote, "for those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression"
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@JA That quote is BRILLIANT! Thank you for sharing.
7
Much hinges on management and communication.
"I did the dishes" - I collected nasty dishes from throughout the house, soaked and pre-cleaned them, ran them through the dishwasher, and then dried and put them away.
"I did the dishes" - I ran the dishwasher.
When that sort of discrepancy of understanding arises in Every Single Aspect of household and family management, the burden falls heavier on one spouse (usually the wife), even when the other partner thinks the relationship is equal. "But I did the dishes!"
As generations become better at communicating (or confronting), the gap between expectations and reality has a better chance to close.
26
@KB The first rule is the Queen of the house has to make it clear that there are no nasty dishes allowed anywhere but the kitchen and the dining room. And the guillotine for food in bedrooms. Worked for my mother.
@VHZ That is pretty amusing to me since the King of this house can never get the Queen to keep food out of any room, not out from underneath the cushions of the chairs and couches, under everything in the rooms, off the kitchen floor, basically everwhere.
If you are into measuring so that equality is assured, then it's an exhausing and irritating exercise. A 'rules' person is not easy to live with, but many grin and bear that significant other with a cheerful attitude. This is not a blast against gender equality, but a reasoned comment on sharing domestic chores. Do whatever is required at the moment to maintain domestic peace, without sitting and drawing up some ridiculous list.
7
This makes sense, equal but different.
3
Sounds suspiciously similar to “separate but equal,” and we know how well that works.
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@AJN RN
Separate but equal applied in the context of racial discrimination against African Americans, not white women.
@Barbara. The term comes from a Supreme Court decision, that has to do with important racial issues, but there is no reason to restrict it to that. That is expecially true if it makes for a useful analogy.
Understanding that my husband hates the idea of divorce more than chores, I leveraged this knowledge and won equity in household responsibility way back in the 1970's. (We had income parity because I have an advanced degree.) He knows he'd better wash his own clothes, make his own bed (yes, he snores) cleans after I cook, go to the grocery, clean his own bathroom. Because, no, I am neither his mother nor his maid. He also knows not to inform that he has done such because the blow back for demanding gratitude is not pretty.
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@G-unit
Right on, sister! You have made me realize just how much I have been fostering this inequality by grinning and bearing it. My mister, with an advanced degree, cannot find anything in the refrigerator, cannot work the washing machine, and, while he knows how to wash dishes, is unable to put things away. In his work life, he runs a construction company with many clients whom he nurtures, but at home, he cannot remember to clean up after himself. How many women are nurturing this "maid and mother" role with their mates, and worse yet, with their adult sons and daughters? Yikes!!
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My husband is the same, always looking for thanks and gratitude when he does a household chore. I keep telling him it’s thankless work!
33
@G-unit,
all women should do that or be willing to walk away. anything less is not worth the marriage.
22
My wife and I share laundry, grocery shopping, and dishwashing pretty equally, but I think I tend to do more cleaning while she does... seasonal decorating...? I am worried that women still are not raised to participate equally in the financial aspects of running a household. It's really hard to get my wife interested in talking about money.
4
@John R. Do you have figures for who, man or woman, runs the financial aspects? I think that your situation is unusual.
Good. Now that the true source of inequality in these households is out in the open, we single persons can leave these couples to work it out. It gets pretty tiresome to listen to complaints, even calls that the government do something, when obvious problem’s source is sleeping next you in your bed. Why don’t you two work it out and those of us that handle all responsibilities in our households leave you to it (favorite Downton Abbey phrase up there with it’s not my secret to tell)?
8
@Michael Blazin
"In a study of the relative happiness of people with children versus those without, American parents stood out among the 22 English-speaking and European countries surveyed as the most unhappy when compared with nonparents. The researchers found that it was entirely explained by the absence of family-friendly policies in the United States. In countries that had such policies, there was no happiness gap between parents and nonparents."
The government bears plenty of responsibility.
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Our collective responsibility is not to make this couple happy, whatever that means. Isn’t being happy a philosophical topic? Our responsibility is that they get by and survive, and perhaps excel. If they are getting by, but perceive an unequal sharing within the unit, they need to resolve that allocation between the two of them.
2
@Michael Blazin
Except that the "allocation between them" is in large part a function of external forces and context that result from governmental and corporate policies. Every study on the topic that I am aware of suggests that couples make very different choices about that allocation when government and corporate policy is supportive of a more egalitarian division of labor (e.g. paid parental leave, subsided childcare etc.). These studies also largely show that both halves of the couple are happier with these more egalitarian arrangements, and that unaffected parties (those without children) are no less happy.
If it can be shown that a set of government policies is available that can boost the general welfare of the counties population, then how is it not the government's business to consider adoption of those policies?
11
The biggest mental hurdle with male partners is the belief that domestic chores are the female partners job and that when men do them, they are 'helping' women with 'their job', rather than doing human tasks that need to get done.
The double edged sword is that when you help them with their jobs (ie running errands for them, taking on a disproportionate share of child care, well that's okay, with them too, because taking care of them and the kids is part of your job,-- as opposed to you helping them with their job.)
For me, the single biggest surprise that marriage has brought is the mentality that vacuuming, or emptying the dishwasher, or folding a load to towels can be conceived of as somebody else's job, whether that person is a spouse or paid help.
We've discussed it a lot over the years, and the compromise position seems to be less complaining over all, but also learning to live in a house that's not quite as neat as I'd like it to be.
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@maryann
if a man were to perform a majority or all of the traditionally feminine tasks or functions, women would either a) emasculate that man and look at him as weak, inadequate or not masculine enough b) complain that he does not perform traditionally feminine functions or tasks to her level of proficiency or to her subjective expectations, and/or c) complain that the man undermines her capabilities that he is invading the traditionally female domain
2
@Manny
What do you think stay-at-home dads do?
8
@Stephanie
I'm sure there is nothing sexier than a stay-at-home dad to you and millions of other women.
2
In my small personal sample size of my own 30 year marriage and two daughters (25 and 19), plus professionally mentoring countless new graduates in the field of clinical research, I think it is true that it may be simply that managing egalitarian ideals is more challenging in the same 24 hour day as 50 years ago.
My 25 year old cannot conceive of how she would manage raising a child in the way she'd like and the demands of a career.
My husband and I always joked 'we needed a wife!'.
Also, why are moms and/or dads still making lunches for their kids? Seriously, get your kids in the kitchen with you and make your lunch while they make theirs. Start at kindergarten and make it educational together time. You have more important things to do than make other peoples lunches alone, and they need to learn alongside you so they can do it on their own, toot-sweet!
48
@Lissa,
I used to cook for my husband and myself and have our downstairs neighbors over a lot when we were all in grad school. they would always joke about wanting to marry me because they needed a wife. I promptly told them I cook but I don't do dishes, housework or anything else.
I still cook and still do minimal laundry or housework. I haven't done my daugther's laundry since she was 7 and I outsource housekeeping.
4
@Lissa
Honestly, my middle schooler has to be at school at 7:18. We all have to get up at 5:45 for that to happen. He has hours of homework every night. I try to get him to bed by 10 or earlier. There are just not the minutes in the day for him to make his own lunch, do his homework, and get the sleep that his growing body and developing mind need. So his father or I make his lunch while he is dressing in the morning.
10
@Sheila Schools are knocking the kids out with homework. It's ridiculous.
10
I think there will always be a gender bias when it comes to working women who have children. In the work place, an even playing field is usually in place when it comes to men and women working in the same office and/or doing the same job. The notion of equality in the work place has become mandated by most employers if for no other reason than to avoid a lawsuit or complaint for disparate treatment. Often times the expectation and sense of equality in the work place is generated more out of fear than respect.
At home, I would like to think that equality exists between partners because they WANT to help out the other, albeit making dinner, doing laundry, but when kids come into the picture, the stereotype of women being the “better nurturers and caretakers” seems to take precedence, usually subconsciously or due to certain assumptions. Professional women become Mom at home.
It’s only my husband & me at home. I work, he’s been retired for years. His days are filled will household chores & running errands, but on the weekends, I would feel I do more stuff at home while he watches TV or is on the computer. The simplest way I found to keep from getting annoyed or frustrated by feelings taken for granted was to go into his study with a cup of coffee & slice of pie for him to enjoy and simply ask him for help, which he gladly reciprocates. We both realize that neither of us are mind readers and simply asking for some help resolves issues before they become problems.
17
Could it be that the work place is under public scrutiny and the home is more private. Truely good behavior would be unchanged regardless of oversight. Good behavior for show, not so much. Another factor must be considered and that is of role models. Children are superb imitators. They often pattern their beliefs and behaviors after those of their parents.
18
It's good to be an egalitarian boomer. 36 years of marriage, swapping cooking every other day, sharing household chores as well as outdoor chores. For example, she likes to mow the lawn. Chores that require more muscle power like splitting wood, I still do. She is just better at sewing than I (she has more patience). We both got our own deer and turkey this fall.
8
@tom Get her a wood splitter for this Christmas.
4
As a gay man, I always find these sorts of social commentary fascinating. When two guys share a home and/or raise a family, there are no pre-established rules to follow. Who's making dinner? Who's folding that pile of laundry? Those answers tend to follow the lines of preference, since gender isn't the guiding light. It's refreshingly equitable in that regard. I'm often surprised to hear my straight colleagues and friends make comments about how nice/great/refreshing it is to see 'the man' do the cooking, or 'the man' help out with the responsibilities of raising young children, clearly both so atypical that they need to be referenced as praise-worthy. I internally chuckle every time my male colleague describes watching his own children as "babysitting." Time to step it up, fellas!
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The phrase "babysitting" when it is your own child is a red flag to me. Same men who do that assume all domestic chores are magically done by the woman.
Many of these men were waited on and spoiled rotten by their mothers.
68
The issue is not only assigning chores and tasks- where women are truly bogged down is in household management and planning. Sure, my husband will make dinner, but I have to do the menu planning. I have external support to clean my home- I’m the one communicating about the schedule and what needs to be cleaned with the cleaning lady. Tracking school performances, fundraisers and Christmas lists? It falls on women.
This is the next stage of achieving equality- when I can simply focus on my work and my husband won’t ask me what the kids are eating for dinner.
100
@Angelica,
Yes. Just one little example: When my kids were maybe kindergarten age, if one was invited to a birthday party, I would check the calendar; I would call the birthday kid's mom (always the mom) to RSVP; I would go to the store and choose an appropriate gift; I would wrap the gift. My husband would drive our kid to or from the party once I told him where and when it was.
This was typical and I don't think he gets it to this day. They are in their 30s now.
36
@Patricia Wow, your husband did the driving to and from the parties? That's great!
8
@Angelica The dinner "planning" became a sore spot for me. So I explained that taking care of dinner meant the whole thing - picking a meal, checking the cupboards, shopping for what we need, cooking, and cleaning afterwards. We take turns based on who has the day off or gets home earlier. Or we "scavenge" - eat leftovers.
4
Even today, a vicious cycle contributes to the "glass ceiling" that women face. Even the most enlightened of fathers measure their participation in parenthood's myriad tasks against their own father's participation--which was probably minimal. They feel they are doing more than their fair share . This is particularly true if they are earning more than their partner. And they probably are, Even if a father and mother begin as peers, the demands of parenthood, falling unequally on the mother, handicap her at work and slow her progress "up the ladder." The fact that women do more at home means that it is very difficult for them to best the men they compete with at work who do less at home. This creates the vicious cycle: mothers appear to be inadequately committed and underperforming at work, therefore over time mothers make less than their parental partners, justifying fathers' belief that since they contribute more to the family income, the mother should assume even more parental responsibilities, thus further impairing the mothers' ability to demonstrate the commitment at work necessary to advancement. This is a continuing cycle. The "glass ceiling" is not solely the product of workplace unfairness. It begins at home.
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@@dogmavat
Oh, really? Where is your hard evidence? I would have loved to have had equality in childcare.
15
@Literatelily
you dont need evidence for obvious or easily observable claims. its completely natural and healthy for women to primarily take care of infants and young children.
@Manny
Do you actually speak to women? Oh wait, let me guess. You are highly successful in your career. Women consider you an alpha male. Young hotties are lining up because you know what they really want (babies, precious babies). Unlike those sad beta males doing the dishes, you stick to the most manly of chores!
2
I would also like to know what the true relationship between stated beliefs and behavior really is at the population level. My husband talks a good game, and I think he really believes his ideas about gender equality, but in practice, I still do nearly all of the household chores. I thank him for vacuuming on occasion, but no one thanks me - it’s just my responsibility. His solution is that we should hire someone to do it. That is, I should, and I should manage that person.
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@Penny
Your message summarizes my experience as the guy in this complaint. Since you appear to be "rules-driven" maybe you can appreciate our domestic mutually agreed rule of household chores:
"You can tell me what you want but not how to do it"
Even though she agreed, she often is exasperated when I walk away from a job/chore because she, believing her role as "superior supervisor", intervenes and/or re-does. I grew up in a military family where chores were assigned regularly and inspected by my white glove father. I also served in both military and a civilian job that required massive amounts of skill with mops, rags, vacuums, squeegees, brooms and polish. I tell her (in keeping with our bargain) "If you want it done your way, do it yourself. " I'm not shirking. I am willing to work for faint praise or none. I'll do a ton of work and upkeep, but don't insult me with instructions and inspections of jobs requiring trivial skill.
9
@hal But the issue Hal is that she shouldn't have to tell you, you should take responsibility yourself. Why is it that household chores are her domain and you 'help.' You both live in the house so you should take equal responsibility.
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@CS
She doesn't *have* to "tell me". I have my own lengthy list of chores - just don't do them when they are under command of the IG.
2