As someone who attended yeshivas in two states followed by enrollment in secular schools I can tell you that the pattern I experienced is half a day is spent in Hebrew and religious studies and half a day (whatever is left over ) is spent in English language and conventional secular subjects. Naturally if you only have half a day something has got to give. Subjects like math, science and history are going to be sacrificed. Only if you have a longer day is there any hope of achieving competency in those subjects. I was lucky that we moved to rural Canada where there were no yeshivas and thus got a chance to see what I was missing.
32
A pox on politicians who allow kids to graduate without the basic requirements of math and English!
35
Imagine if we changed the name Yeshiva to Madrassa on this article. The public would go nuts!
59
I think there are two issues here. One is the yeshivas’ complete and deliberate failure to educate their students in the subjects and skills the law requires. The other is the use of public tax funds to subsidize that. These schools must be required to teach the secular subjects the law provides for. And we should look at defunding schools that don’t.
63
There is definitely no question that at many ultra-orthodox yeshivas, the secular education is subpar. But the broader issue here is that certain insular chassidic communities would cease to exist in their present form and communal structure if their adherents attended college in large numbers; for many of these groups, their identity relies on not being honestly exposed to the outside world beyond transactional business settings. Merely giving them a high-school education won't change the larger attitude towards a higher education, and a high-school education by itself, will not likely make a huge dent in poverty rates etc..
24
Any ny'er knows there is a HUGE difference between the orthodox and semi-orthodox. The Yeshivas referenced here are extreme orthodox and not to be confused with the semi orthodox NYC Yeshivas. Night and Day.
On the other hand -- I try to be open minded but my experiences with ultra Orthodox has been depressing. Truly repressive environments and religious practices that wouldn't be out of place in 3000 B.C. It is all great if you fit in, but if you dont....
35
The Hasidic communities’ refusal to teach boys secular subjects seems to be based on the theory that the boys will use secular knowledge and training to leave the Hasidic way of life. At times, this fear of male defection becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. There is a good chance this issue will eventually make its way to the US Supreme Court.
23
Oh and all for the sake of the children.
Was lovely reading the comments.
I agree some enclaves of the Jewish community would benefit from questioning some of their attitudes towards secular education, and coming up with positive solutions. I also believe that some of the attitudes and demeanor of some of these commentators should be examined as well.
As a human it gave me chills. As a Jew it filled me with a feeling of dread. Some, probably most, of these comments made my heart ache and beat faster.
They really are wary of the secular world, which I think is justified just by reading through a lot of the vitriol.
It is the second night of Channuka.
Reminds me,(not the same thing, it just reminds me) of the story of Channuka, the Hellenists imposing their values on the Jews, more then 2000 years ago. Trying to rid them of their strange values they didn’t understand.
It is wonderful all of you that care about the education and growth of our children, may I suggest there are more effective methods of showing care and empathy.
Take a deep breath and try speaking without anger.
Sending love to all and Happy Channuka!
11
Madrassa, Yeshiva, Christian Academy, no difference, different gods, should receive zero public dollars ...
72
Wow - a lot of hostility and aggressiveness in these posts about the "medieval" Yeshiva curriculum. I agree that schools that take public funds should meet public standards, but don't disparage and disrespect what you don't understand. I have studied Talmud, History, and Medicine - the latter two at Ivy League schools. Talmud was the most intellectually rigorous and required the highest level of critical thinking; Med school the least; the liberal arts were somewhere in between....
14
@bb
I graduated at the top of my med school. I studied plenty of Torah and Talmud, I'm a direct descendant of the former chief rabbi of Jerusalem, R' Yehoshua Leib Diskin.
My gosh, I hope you're not in charge of anything beyond bunions, and pray you've never had to take care of critically ill patients. You sound just like the type of doctor that misdiagnoses heart attacks as indigestion.
34
Do these kids not have to take (and pass) the state aptitude tests? Or are those tests only given to kids in public schools?
9
No. They do not have to take state tests, so they don't. Clearly, since they don't teach the required subjects, these tests would be impossible. Other parochial religious schools do choose to participate in state testing, including (for example) the Catholic schools in the Diocese of Brooklyn.
16
When an “outsider” comments on an insular religious school system there can be an backlash grounded in the religious freedom rights we all hold dear. However, every child has a legal right, per New York State law, to a basic education in secular subjects such as English, Math, Science and Social Studies in order to graduate with sufficient English language and job skills for gainful employment and enough knowledge of America’s history, laws and governance to understand their rights and duties as citizens, to be informed voters, to serve on juries, to participate in their own healthcare decisions and to provide for their families.
The personal and economic repercussions of successive graduating classes of men with poor job skills and insufficient English language skills who then marry and go on to head very large families need to be addressed. Intense religious education provides advantages in terms of their spiritual lives, but leaves many graduates underqualified for their real-world adult financial responsibilities. The stress of borderline poverty and worse is constant for their families and has social, mental health and financial implications for them and for the larger secular community in which they live. Pre-ordaining, through educational deprivation, a family life permanently dependent on a full menu of housing and safety-net subsidies for families within the demographic with the highest birth rate is neither sustainable nor conscionable.
54
Years ago I visited a yeshiva for women in Jerusalem. It was a bow to western ideals that women were even granted study. The teachers were all men, who deigned to dispense their wisdom for a hour or two and then leave. I remember the rabbi saying to these already well-educated western women that he did not recognize European culture; Western history never happened as far as he was concerned.
This is a pernicious attitude that makes some haunted people feel safe and secure. But they immigrate to Israel to hear it. It has no place on U.S. soil. We are a democracy and a republic. That means religious freedom proves itself worthy of citizenship by contributing to the commonweal. Threatening a State by using its voting block to remain insular, yet a burden on public services, is a distortion of the premises of religious freedom.
Where are the statistics on this community’s abuse of public services? It’s not exactly a secret. Certainly Trump won’t bring up the subject. It’s so much safer to demonize people who have darker skin and aren’t organized enough to threaten to vote you out.
44
Classic example of religious fanatics hiding behind religion and failing to serve the children they teach. This isn't the only example, just a recent one.
34
Please buck the political winds and at least pay back Simcha’s debt - he’s over borrowed on the backs of the Democratic voters of New York.
6
How ironic that serving the interests of a "powerful voting bloc" simultaneously requires keeping half of that population in a state of civic functional illiteracy.
44
Having worked helping young victims of sexual abuse from rabbis and school officials at some Yeshivas in New York City, I am well aware of the failure of religious institutions to protect its most vulnerable. It is also well known that secular education, math, science and english, are not considered nearly as important as the teaching of the Torah, even though these schools, by law, must teach proficiency. I have met many young men from this community who have grown up with limited educational skills necessary to excel in a secular society. Investigative reporter Hella Winston has worked to expose the impact of sexual abuse and lack of education has had on many young people from the ultra orthodox community and the failure of government and educational authorities to demand accountability. I applaud Nuftali Moster and his colleagues for shining the important light on the Yeshivas as well as the complicity of our elected officials.
50
Yes, they do. They do even at more modern yeshivas. Especially if the students are girls. This is the case in far too many yeshivas. And I say that as someone who went to yeshiva and got a good education. (I cringe when I hear about what passes for an education for my niece.)
10
These folks have nothing to do with anyone outside of their group. Why even ask the question.
5
And it sounds like you want nothing to do with them. “These Folks” I can practically see you glaringly pointing your finger.
1
@Queen Of The Uetliberg
His prerogative.
1
@Queen Of The Uetliberg
Unfortunately, what Al said is true.
1
"A coalition of prominent ultra-Orthodox rabbis and community members have accused critics of yeshivas of attacking religious freedoms."
I love it. New York City's very own Taliban.
28
@george eliot
If the Taliban had a voting bloc, de Blasio would be in servitude to them also. Between developers, Bezos and the Ultra-Orthodox, the man is a complete stooge; and I voted for him the first time because I actually believed his progressive malarkey. Silly me.
7
Amazing how when confronted with facts and reason, all of these so called people of faith hide behind their faith, pretend to be victims, don't have the decency to tell the truth and lie through their teeth. Doesn't matter which religion, they all behave the same way.
31
This issue here is not the limits of religious freedom. The state's constitution requires that all children receive an education. There is no mention of an obligation to provide a religious education, and indeed the constitution bars the state from prescribing and financing religious training. As commonly understood, education means reading and writing in the common language, mathematics, science and history. All of these subjects are necessary to develop adults capable of functioning in this society.
A hands-off attitude toward slighting secular subjects at yeshivas does not only harm their students but endanger the future of society. With a high birth rate, the products of these schools are building an ever increasing political block void of critical thinking that dutifully opposes many of the interests of the rest of modern society. Catholic and other parochial schools seem to have been able to provide secular education as well as religious training. Why not the yeshivas?
51
@Alan Mass Hi Alan - thanks for your comment. You raise an important question worthy of more reporting: why have New York City's considerable number of Catholic schools in particular been able to offer a full secular education along with religious studies? One interesting observation I've made reporting on Catholic schools is that some have embraced the academic rigor of charter schools as a way to attract more families amid years of declining enrollment.
18
@Eliza Shapiro Oh, please! The academic rigor is in The Public Schools! The best private schools follow NYS Regents Public curriculum! You need to get out there more! I'm someone, who has taught in all!!!
8
@Eliza Shapiro And by Private schools, I include the Catholic schools! Visit, Bishop Loughlin or Xavarian in Brooklyn, and Molloy in Queens.
4
Religious nationalism is on the rise everywhere in the world including in the U.S. The state has a compelling interest in insuring that our children are properly educated. A secular education is one of the greatest advancements in western civilization. The Founders wanted to throw off the shackles of traditional power sources like institutionalized religion. They were thinking about institutionalized Christianity, of course, but it applies to all faiths. The state's interest is so compelling here that any infringement on the free exercise is justified for the sake of the state but more importantly for the sake of those children.
24
Not with tax money! I do not see the public good that comes from illiterate graduates steeped in iron age thinking. We should celebrate the freedom of these family to provide their children the education with the education they desire. But if that education does not align with the public good, taxpayers should not be underwriting it.
43
When religious leaders and homeschoolers of any variety of any religion develop schools that provide no secular education and/or pass on nonsense as education, it's a feature, not a bug. The Jewish leaders of this group want the children who attend their schools to remain as ignorant as possible of the outside world. That way they won't leave their cultlike version of Judaism. Ditto for the evangelical Christians or the fundmentalist Muslims. They all have the same goal: keep their children cloistered and ignorant of the outside world. The problem is that some of their children realize just how badly their families and their religions destroyed their educations. Our country is not served by adults ignorant of the basics of a normal education. And to cheat those children of English literacy is a disgrace.
55
Reading the coments here there is a lot of “these people are on welfare.” And “these people have too many children.” These words would be unacceptable hate speach if used for any other group. Why is it OK to say these things about practicing Jews?
6
@Daniel Werner
Thank you, Daniel. Not one person would say that about people of color, let alone about immigrant Muslims.
Only about Jews. People shouldn't have more than they can handle physically and emotionally, but it's not a crime, let alone illegal, to get food stamps and or child insurance for larger families.
1
@Daniel Werner I've read comments such as these when it comes to people who have multiple children they can ill afford. Why should our hard earned tax dollars go to private schools? And further why are these people having children they can't afford? Don't care what religion you follow or the color of your skin. If you can't afford to put food on your table for two people you shouldn't be having multiple children.
27
@Daniel Werner Why is it hate speech to say they are on welfare when 70% of them ARE on welfare? Why is it hate speech to say they are having more children than they can afford to feed when this is the reason they are on welfare? This article is about the Yeshivas not educating their students and it causing them not to be able to get jobs that will allow them to support their families. The comments are not hate speech, they are specific to the content of the opinion piece.
38
We should be insuring these kids receive a well rounded education with all the latest information and science so that we can avoid our own domestic Taliban from growing and taking more power. It has nothing to do with Jews at all - its all about the principal of orthodoxy of any kind. We need strong, universal education to keep indoctrinated ignorance and willful stupidity at bay. A cult following does not a nation make.
29
@Matthew
They do get a education that isn't secular but will be more effective in training them to think independently than any secular education will and they will not be ignorant or stupid after getting this education.
Learning Gemara can not be done by a ignorant person.
You learn the ability to think logically.
Something you do not learn from a secular education,
1
@lucky
ALL they learn is to memorize the Talmud. Period. That is their raison d'être. The boys literally learn nothing else. This is allowed in Israel. In New York, state law has specific secular subjects that MUST be taught.
I say this as a Jew.
12
@lucky we do not need to be self deprecating anymore, crowded in a self imposed secular shtetl. We are first class citizens now. The war is over!! Tikkun Olam! Get out of your echo chambers and contribute. Davening over Torah is cool but if we learn anything from the great stories it is to live and give!! And that only starts by learning things and about
other people.
10
I taught history at an ultra-orthodox Mesivta in Williamsburg. I taught grades 9, 10, 11 for forty minute periods, Sundays through Thursdays. Their school calendar, at least for secular studies, was a fraction of the public school calendar. Students took off weeks at a time for Passover, Hanukkah, Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Shavuous, Sukkos, etc. etc. In the classroom, I learned far more about the Torah and Talmud than my students learned about history. We had a deal. I would begin the class with a few pertinent points about American and world history, then they would edify me on what they considered far more substantial and important subjects. The only secular subjects that interested them were business mathematics and accounting. The rest of the curriculum we offered to them was, in their minds, a joke. Some of the boys came from immense wealth. For instance, the father of one of my students owned Kedem wine company. The Rebbe determined tuition by the ability to pay. The Kedem wine heir's father paid a small fortune while other kids attended at no cost. That impressed me greatly. What didn't impress me was by the time I arrived at 4:00 each day, the kids were exhausted. They were required to be up at the crack of dawn and spent 10 hours studying Talmud and Torah before we got them. Some slept through our classes, and we allowed it because we had mercy on them!
40
@nzierler Thank you for your helpful comment, which provides a very helpful window into how ultra-Orthodox yeshivas structure their secular educational offerings. I'm particularly struck by your observation that students were most interested in business/accounting when it came to secular studies, and how other topics like science and social studies were not seen as urgent by at least some of your students.
15
@Eliza Shapiro And you should know that I taught in a comparatively worldly Mesivta compared to others. For example, the Satmars offer no secular education whatsoever. As a point of fact, the Satmars hate the Lubavitch movement because the Lubavitchers promote a strong Israeli state, which is anathema to Satmars because they feel as long as a political Jewish state exists it blocks the Messiah from appearing. One Shabbos, according to my students, the Satmars bombed a Lubavitch shul, that's how radical they are!
9
I was introduced to a 9 year old Yeshiva student by his father a graduate of Harvard college and law school who had converted to Hasidism. The child only spoke Yiddish and could understand English.
8
If the yeshivas receive public funds, they have an obligation to teach the required curriculum.
29
@DC Exactly, and if they don't like that or don't adhere to the standards of each state then they must forego the public funds. Can't have it both ways.
19
@Margo Channing Foregoing the public funds would not satisfy the law. All schools, even home schools, must be able to prove to the state that they are providing secular education or be held accountable.
17
@DC
They have an obligation to teach the required curriculum regardless of whether they receive public funds.
12
Insular and ultra orthodox religious seems to be a problem.
No matter what religion.
33
The politicians are yet again bowing to a small segment of the population to the detriment of the rest of us. Reminds me of how the Cuban exiles in Miami dictated politics until very recently.
20
@Paulie
This special interest group gets whatever they want.
9
@Paulie True. Politicians are terrified of the voting power of the Hasids and will cower and cut corners for their votes. Been doing it forever. Unfair, especially to all of those not being educated.
12
Here I am in Alabama thinking we were the only ignorant people in this country. At least the private schools in Alabama have to abide by the state curriculum guidelines. This is beyond outrageous and goes far beyond what even the Southern Baptist demand for religion. To think that New York even thinks about tip toeing around this issue because of politics tells me that this country is really and truly out of its mind. When will people stop this religious nonsense and understand that religious teaching belongs in their Temples and churches and not in their schools. It is a wonder that religious people like this can even survive because there are no real job skills being taught.
25
@Bill
These people are not ignorant.
They know more than most college students have.
Tell me what job skill do they lack because they did not learn history or chemistry for example.
It's just the opposite.
I have a cousin who has a PHD in English literature.
He has fewer real job skills than these Yeshiva students have.
@lucky
How does memorizing the Talmud give you a job skill. And a Ph.D. provides knowledge, research skills,, writing skills, etc. etc.
11
What government funding are they receiving? Frankly, it seems problematic that they are getting any funding at all. My assumption is related to special education costs, but why are these schools that have restrictive admissions policies (i.e. are all single gender and do not admit even Jews from the "wrong" stream of Judaism) getting a penny from local, state, or federal authorities?
14
The purpose of yeshivas is to train Jewish men to become scholars of the Torah and Jewish women to become wives & mothers.
These schools have no interest in training their students to flourish in the secular world, so why should they teach secular subjects?
This would not be a problem for the rest of us--why not them live their devout lives in peace?--except that Orthodox Jews--like the Amish--are more than happy to accept government subsidies to maintain their separate ways.
Not that dissimilar from those "Christian Academies" that sprang up like weeds after school segregation was ruled illegal....
7
@camorrista
The Amish do pay real estate, state and federal income taxes, county taxes, sales tax, etc. The Amish do not collect Social Security benefits, nor would they collect unemployment or welfare funds. Self sufficiency is the Amish community's answer to government aid programs.
26
If the ultra-Os want to maintain the shtetl life, I propose they do it on their own dime.
If the Amish, Mennonites, et al. can maintain their Old World life without government financial support, why cannot the Hasidim?
40
Most religious schools provide a terrific dual curriculum and, hence, have longer hours for students to absorb both. But, in many of the very-religious organizations, the education is far below average, thus denying the students a rightful secular education. Why? They want it that way.
7
I would suggest the city recoup some of the money it spends on these communities by running bus tours through them, showing what life was like in 17th century Poland.
25
A good idea. The men’s garb is modeled after Polish nobility. It’s a shonda the way they deny their children’s secular education and doom them to essentially being welfare cases with large families. You may wonder why they would prefer to live in America rather than go to Israel. They reject Israel as not being orthodox enough and are waiting for the messiah to come before they go there. Really. You can look it up.
14
They prefer to live in America because they are Americans.
1
How many of these young boys secure employment that allows them to support the large families they usually have? My guess is that Food Stamps, Medicare play a huge part in their daily existence. I am not against a religious education having been a product of a good Catholic school education. Religion is good, but it doesn't put food on the table. Education and good jobs do that, They should bee forced to meet State standards, or do without the Food Stamps, etc,
57
@mfiori
The definition of freeloading
8
@mfiori Agree, but do not believe religion is good. It isn't.
6
@mfiori
Do not compare the education you got to what these students get.
I am sure what you learned was very important to you but that education is very different from the one these students get which makes you unqualified to make the judgement you made about them
1
The best of the centrist orthodox schools have 4, possibly 5, periods per day, 45 minutes each, in addition to religious studies. It works very well, and many of these grads win scholarships to prestigious universities. Ms. Elia, which you don't mention, is demanding 6 hours of equivalent education per day, which is impossible, and unnecessary.
Many agree that the most stringent Hassidic schools, for the boys, barely fit in two periods per day, which is woefully insufficient. There are intelligent compromises to be made, such as skipping pre historic evolution and even some reproductive biology. No need to lose everything in the battle. But, English reading, especially essay writing, is crucial, plus math skills, and at least two years of science.
Also keep in mind, sorry to tell you this, that passing a regents exam doesn't mean one is prepared for college. When orthodox leaders complain that many public school grads., never mind the drop outs, are poorly educated for life, they do have a point.
So, let Ms. Elia figure out what is really important. English language, some math, some sciences, some history. Leave the dinosaurs out of it. That is a silly complaint.
12
@Rosalie Lieberman : all your points are well taken.
in addition, it may be instructive to find out how Israel managed the very same problem, getting the orthodox educational system to comply with the state educational system. Mayor Deblasio may just learn something he doesn't know.
5
@Rosalie Lieberman Why do you think it would be prudent to skip reproductive biology, especially in a community where families routinely have more children than they can feed without reliance on government programs? It seems to me that learning about human reproduction and birth control should be required before a family can collect from food stamps, section 8 or welfare since the size of the family is often the cause of the financial problem.
48
Why is dinosaurs a silly complaint? I mean they are real. They are there. You want to have thousands of kids growing up not believing in dinosaurs or evolution?
This is distinct from religious belief by the way. It is up to each religion to decide how to reconcile its beliefs with reality. But encouraging people to deny reality or censor curriculums just to support poor theology is not the answer.
30
We don't have doctors and hospitals practicing medicine using practices and theories codified from the Middle Ages; nor restaurants applying sanitary practices from that time; nor is our justice system so limited. The right to a decent education is a human right and consistent with the need for an informed population in our republican form of self-government. There can and should be no "religious" out for Yeshivas and no separate system of religious based educational system funded by the taxpayers. From another perspective, the inequities, biases and immorality of fundamental religious belief is brought to the surface in the negligent and reckless way in which religious dogma denies children the fundamental right to an education in math, science, American history and English.
70
There has to be a legal way to stop "voting blocs" (Jewish and otherwise) from taking over. It's an especially serious issue in small communities. If local politicians are going to pander or be intimidated, we need federal laws that protect our secular, western values.
29
For many generations orthodox school education failed to deliver modern public school curricula condemning untold numbers of orthodox youngsters from participating in the modern world. And often being dependent on public assistance and private charity. Obtaining a modern education ought not be a church state issue. Rather one of simple common sense and appreciation for the endless possibilities for our children. Education should not be governed by a quest for religious identify. Modernity in free democratic societies requires highly educated citizens. Our Yeshivot have not and cannot deliver that requirement without major reform.
36
"At least one-third of the estimated 7,000 Hasidic families in Williamsburg receive public assistance, according to neighborhood leaders.
The benefits, including welfare payments, food stamps and subsidized housing, sustain the families with as many as 10 or 12 children; they fill the cash registers of the kosher supermarkets on Lee Avenue and help underwrite much of the work done by the Hasidim, whether in schools, retail stores or factories."
Source: https://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/21/nyregion/religion-and-welfare-shape-economics-for-the-hasidim.html
40
@Confucius
Those numbers are far worse upstate.
10
@Confucius Religion has always and everywhere been a parasite on the body politic.
11
It's about time! These kids have been political and religious pawns for years. The real outrage is it has taken so long to give these kids the basic rights they deserve as American citizens.
32
The "education" of the girls is to get married as soon as possible and to have more children than they can properly support, educate, or care for.
46
@Anon
You are so wrong.
Young men are expected to continue their learning past high school.
They can't do that and get a job.
As a result women are expected to find a job to support the family and the education they get is a very good one.
3
Best mixed metaphor of the year:
“Are they going to find a loophole and drive their Mack Truck through it on the backs of the students?” Ms. Lieberman asked, referring to religious school leaders.
7
One can't depict Yeshiva's with a broad brush! For example, in Brooklyn, there is Magen David Celia Esses High School! It is essentially a Yeshiva, run by the influential Syrian community! In their early years, they brought in Norman Fisher, the Principal who had led legendary James Madison High School! He added further life and rigor to a Regents curriculum! In fact the best Yeshivas and Catholic High Schools follow, the New York State Public Regents curriculum and standards!!!
15
@Counter Measures as all private schools should.
4
@Counter Measures Hi and thanks for your comment. Absolutely true that many yeshivas, including many modern Orthodox yeshivas, provide an excellent education. The focus of the investigation has been specifically on ultra-Orthodox yeshivas in enclaves like Williamsburg and Borough Park, and Kiryas Joel and East Ramapo upstate.
17
@Counter Measures Yes one can, and be absolutely correct!
2
I grew up ultra orthodox but opted to attend college and to become a physician, a choice that put me at odds with my parents and the community I grew up in. I was able to do this because the girls’ school I attended offered an excellent secular education in addition to religious studies. Oddly this is one area where girls do better in the community than boys. For boys, secular studies are viewed as a waste of precious time that could be devoted to Torah study. Many boys graduate yeshiva with a lack of skills needed to succeed in the work force, and in society at large, if they don’t become Rabbis or religious teachers. This is surely the downside to excluding secular studies.
However, the benefits of Yeshiva should not be subject to wholesale dismissal. Many who lack the education work hard to catch up with their college age peers and succeed wildly. What they get from Yeshiva is something that can’t be caught up with later in life: inculcation of religious values and fluency in Jewish law and writings. While this may look like “brainwashing” to non religious or anti religious people, it has recognized value and returns to some of us who value the ancient customs. And, when taught properly, produces people who are able to both preserve their heritage and also contribute positively to society at large.
24
"I grew up ultra orthodox but opted to attend college and to become a physician, a choice that put me at odds with my parents and the community I grew up in. " A yeshiva provides good religious teachings to preserve heritage. However, it sounds like seeking to better yourself put you at odds with family and community. Which is more important, preserving heritage or being sufficient enough to actually financially preserve that heritage?
15
It’s a great question. To do both is a struggle, but I have many friends who try to integrate both aspects. That’s why many, like my parents, discourage secular education: they know how hard it is to live in mainstream society and still be religious (to their standards). As for me, I’m still religious, but no longer “ultra” the way I grew up.
8
@Yeshiva Graduate Thank you for your comment and for helping explain why outcomes are so different for girls and boys in ultra-Orthodox yeshivas. And thank you for highlighting differences and nuances between different types of yeshivas - plenty of schools have demonstrated that it's possible to get a rigorous secular education along with an intensive religious education.
8
This situation is not confined to NYC alone- head north to Rockland and Orange Counties in NY, and the town of Lakewood in NJ. School budgets fail because of the bloc vote- which alos keeps politicians in line. The budget crisis is amplified as the Public School district has to provide busing for this religious community which is growing exponentially. RLUIPA is also used as a cudgel if a local municipality tries to protect its zoning rules to prevent overdevelopment- potentially bankrupting them. The Bloc vote will prevent these rules from being enforced- further creating generations of undereducated citizens controlled by thier "religious" leaders. Simple solution- make the kids take the state standardized tests every year and publish those results.
32
Is this a serious question? Yeshivas of the ultra-orthodox variety spend a significant portion of the day on religious subjects at the expense of science, math, and other valuable subjects needed to ensure student success upon graduation. Until these schools conform to state required curricula they should not receive one cent of taxpayer money nor should the parents of the students receive any kind of tax break on tuition. That said, all public and private schools should, at a minimum, be made to adhere to state required curricula and standards.
46
All schools, public and private, should be required to meet the same standards for educating their students. And if they are not teaching kids to meet those standards, then they certainly shouldn't be receiving any taxpayer money.
69
@J. Waddell- Agreed. I don’t believe that Federal, State and local tax dollars should flow to schools without any accountability for results.
20
Why is public money supporting private schools?
109
@joe. because people who send their children to these schools vote and state legislators are happy to use public funds to buy those votes.
11
It is important not to tar the entire Orthodox community. "Torah u-Madah" ("Torah and Science") is the Hebrew motto of modern Orthodox Yeshiva University. You are reporting on a small, but significant, segment of the community. The ultra-Orthodox students certainly acquire literacy (in ancient languages) and good study skills (in the Babylonian Talmud). I agree that they are been misled by their cult leaders and deserve prompt and vigorous state intervention. Ultra-orthodox mis-education is an even bigger problem in Israel than in the United States, where anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodoxy is more powerful.
29
Yeshivot and the Haredi are an anachronism, a relic of sorts that I have never really understood. Living in the past imagining that intense study will bring about some enlightenment and a return of the Messiah seems to me a stretch. They are not enlightened, women are relegated to second class status at the same time they are fed a diet of lies that they are treasured. They have more in common with the Pennsylvania Dutch than the rest of the world.
19
@AusTex The "Pennsylvania Dutch" (Old Order Amish, Amish, Mennonite) do not take public funds. They do not take Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. In the event a family is in need- eg, very large hospital bill- the community covers it. Men work during the week- they don't spend their days studying religion.
109
‘The Pennsylvania Dutch’ refers to Pennsylvania descendants of early German settlers and is not used to describe a common religious group. Amish/Mennonite/Bretheren communities, while included under the umbrella of Pennsylvania Dutch, more correctly known as plain folk, are distinct religious group, and are more appropriately comparable to Haredi.
8
@AusTex
They have little in common with the Amish. Amish children generally leave school after eighth grade, but the schooling they do receive has a very practical orientation. See:
http://amishamerica.com/education/#description
12
What I would like to know is how we got to this point to begin with and more specifically how did the Yeshivas get t the public teat?
23
Let me see if I have this right.....
There is a dual school system in New York City and beyond.
In these schools boys are taught specific subjects.
Since the girls are forbidden to study such subjects by the religion and are forbidden to enter the normal schools of the city and the state by that same religion, then they are taught....?
Taught what?
No one says.
This is all about young boys being kept ignorant and unemployable by old men.
They are taught enough English to be able to apply for food stamps and welfare, and, keeping all of this in place is the political system of the City and State of New York.
Now, where have I heard of this before.....?
Oh! I know! This is the same system that Israel uses!
In Israel this religious group is 20% of the population, and growing, big time, and the system is the same: boys will never receive secular education; they will study religious text for their entire life; they are unemployable as anything but menial labor; they are fully supported by the "inferior others" of their religion (that would be normal working men and women) and by the laws of the state/country; the females are only used for making more boys; and, though this country gives Israel $4 BILLION, it hasn't a clue how much the city and state of New York gives this dual system.
The budget for the city/state is $168 BILLION: How much DO they get?
Oh, and did I mention that here are no standards that must be followed?
Well, there we are.
Write "sucker" if you can!
80
My dear please don’t be so angry at my/our people.
Reading this message put a shiver down my spine.
1
@rosa
The girls get a far better secular education, because they learn far less religion.
As wives and mothers, it is often they who are the bread-winners. They speak far better English than the boys/men.
8
All children should get a full, rigorous secular education.
Perhaps it is time to require all children attend public school. It would strengthen the public schools and ensure proper education and socialization with students from all different backgrounds.
Religious education can happen at home or in an after school religious program. There is no reason why high school students should be finishing school unable to do such basic things are reading, writing, math and science. Where I grew up there were Yeshiva kids who attended our public school summer school, just so they could get science, math and history classes they needed for college.
25
@Rachel - OMG, then we'd have to get Xmas out of the public schools!
3
@Rachel That’s unconstitutional. A 1925 Supreme Court decision, Pierce vs. Society of Sisters, ruled on the legality of religious schools.
@Susan Levy Religious schools may be legal, but they shouldn't get a dime of public money.
11
As several commenters have noted, this article is missing a vital statistic - how public money is going to support these schools?
77
Public money cannot be used for religious schools per se. However, religious schools do qualify for money for busing, breakfast and lunch programs, special education services and evaluations, academic intervention, mandated services such as maintaining attendance records or administering state standardized exams, textbooks and library books and certain Title I poverty money. This totals in the millions for the Yeshivas in question.
6
@Joanna Stasia NYC
They also get school security guards, garbage pick up and crossing guards.
6
If public funding were cut off there would be a political pogrom inflicted on those deemed responsible. The only bloodless way to do it is to bring it before the Supreme Court.
3
When suggesting what Jewish religious leaders might do in the event of an unfavorable decision, I’ll suggest that pogrom is not the best word to use.
18
Looks like you buried the lede here. Bill de Blasio fired the guy who was investigating whether this mayoral administration interfered with these DOE inquiries in an effort the maintain the blessing of the Orthodox community.
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@Caroline
Similar things happened during the Giuliani Administration, where Bruce Teitelbaum was Giuliani's "liason" to the Jewish community. The worst thing Teitelbaum did was to get a building inspector, Joseph Trivisonno, fired, because he was reporting safety violations by Orthodox Jewish building contractors. https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/122299sen-ny-gop2.html One building was under construction, and the contractor poured a cement floor, but didn't wait for the cement to set before sending his workers to work on it. The floor collapsed, and several of them were killed. Nobody was prosecuted.
These religious groups vote in a block, and New York politicians won't take them on. There's nothing you can do about it.
27
@Norman
never say never
13
@Caroline And de Blasio is contemplating a Presidential run? No way!
6
This is more complicated than it seems. While the yeshivas are worse by degree, many religious schools "teach" irrational dogma in lieu of science. And - fortunately - many private schools resist standardization and the idiotic testing that comes with it.
Years ago, when I was part of a progressive school in NYC, we refused to give Regents exams - not to be aloof, but because capitulating to the requirement would require corrupting our curriculum to align with the means and methods necessary to "prepare" students for exams we disagreed with.
While some yeshivas appear to be doing great disservice to children, I am wary of turning the power of the state against those who choose this primitive existence.
It would be quite different if public funds were involved. And, of course, if ignorance spills into documentable neglect or abuse, the state has a historic interest.
But it is complex, not as simple as some would believe.
5
@Barking Doggerel
Don't the children have a right to a decent education? The parents shouldn't have the right to deprive them of that.
41
@Barking Doggerel Public funds ARE involved.
11
We provide wide latitude to parents in almost every conceivable respect. How do we respect the right of parents to exercise their religious freedom, but still acknowledge that it is the children who pay the price for that decision. It is incredibly difficult to determine when the state should intervene.
7
I don’t think it’s all that difficult. When government funds are provided for services or materials, government has a responsibility to assure the beneficiaries of those resources are getting the fundamental underlying services involved. “Freedom of Religion” does not mean an unfettered access to a government revenue stream. Voucher plans and tuition tax credits should fall under the same critical scrutiny for the same reasons.
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@Stephen Miller
The state and federal government have already intervened by giving these schools tax money. They don't like the rules? Simple. Give up the federal money.
76
@Stephen Miller Thanks for this comment, which cuts to the heart of the question and the debate that the city and state governments are having internally right now. As you say there are no easy answers, but I think the fact that this investigation is moving forward will prompt a broader reckoning with this big question.
3
The article says that if “...the schools are not providing an education that is “substantially equivalent” to what public schools offer, ... the city can withhold some funding it provides private schools.” NYC public schools are a disaster and private/religious schools are receiving city funds? Why? Why should any private school ever receive public money?
144
I always get frustrated when people enforce their specific morality on children. You don't get to deny them access to quality medical care or the right to an education because of a religious code. When they're 18, they have all the right to their own lives, but until then...
28
Amusing that Trump lashes out at immigrants for being criminals and a drain on the public coffers when we all know that they are some of the hardest working (and tax-paying) folks in the country. All this while the large Hassidic communities across the country systematically exploit the public coffers by design and cover-up domestic violence and child abuse consistently. One group is trying to integrate into our culture while another attempts to create their own laws and authority and ignore our state and local laws and citizenship obligations. The irony is stark.
119
@Randall Reed
Oh, I mean, don't worry. The Trump administration will go after them as well. They'll get around to it.
2
@Incredulosity
Good. No one should be allowed to set up their own private society within ours. I'm Jewish and I would deport these Ultra-Orthodox nuts in a minute if they weren't citizens.
24
@Randall Reed
Trump is in hock to the extreme-right wing, and the extreme-right wing is, when not evangelical, very anti-semitic...
5
The NYC Dept of Education states flatly that: "To earn a diploma, students must earn specific course credits and pass specific Regents exams."
Do all yeshiva students actually do this? Or are a significant number not actually graduating with a high school degree?
https://www.schools.nyc.gov/school-life/rules-for-students/graduation-requirements
An ordinary regents diploma requires only scores of 65% or better in these five subject areas
English Language Arts (ELA)
Any math exam (Algebra I, Geometry, or Algebra II/Trigonometry)
Any social studies exam (Global History and Geography or U.S. History and Government)
Any science exam (Living Environment, Chemistry, Earth Science, or Physics)
Any additional Regents exam, or another option approved by the State
In general most colleges require an Advanced Regent's diploma; with more requirements (including a foreign language) and a higher passing standard.
The obvious first question to ask is "what fraction of yeshiva students aren't successfully passing the basic Regent's exam?"
58
@Lee Harrison
As someone who grew up in this community, I feel compelled to respond to your question:
Yes, a significant number are not graduating with a high school diploma and this is by design. Most community leaders don't want students going on to attend college where they can be exposed to ideas that would lead them to question their faith. Students who request diplomas are usually questioned about their intentions and deal with extensive red tape from school administrators. For individuals who are motivated to become economically independent adults, this obfuscation can be successful in dead-ending their aspirations.
In my family, I've watched this process unfold many times. Some managed to obtain the diploma through sheer persistence. Others who were unsuccessful have attempted to independently obtain a GED at which point the degree to which they can't properly read and write english becomes painfully clear and often demotivates them from the pursuit of higher education.
This contributes to a pervasive cycle of poverty within these communities. Without a high school diploma or a college education, many aren't eligible for a job that pays a living wage yet are encouraged to marry young and raise large families. The few in these communities with successful businesses tend to support the many others who have been intentionally stunted in their ability to provide for their families.
I applaud those who are fighting to give these kids a chance.
224
@Chaya
Thank you. People need to hear this.
It is wrong in a thousand ways and has gone on for far too long. Stop damaging kids and shrinking their opportunities, with government funding no less!
Many of the kids in these communities are not allowed to even go into a public library and take out books. Everything is censored and many can barely read English.
A travesty. In New York, in 2018. Enough. We need not fund cults, fundamentalists, of any stripes.
60
@Chaya
Religion is the enemy of the brain
7
Why not just require that private schools maintain some passing percentage on Regency Exams or Competency Tests?
75
It should be noted that the term Yeshiva is a generic term for schools with dual curriculum which include religious studies. It does not refer only to schools maintained by the ultra orthodox or Chasidic movements. There are numerous Yeshiva elementary and high schools such as Yeshiva University High School, Ramaz, Flatbush and Frisch, among many others locally, 100% of whose graduates go onto college, many to Ivy League schools.
54
@Stan To elaborate further on this point, Modern Orthodox Yeshivas and their sister schools are radically dissimilar to the schools in this article. While these High Schools do have a religious curriculum along with secular studies, these schools are rigorous and demanding when it comes to the later material. I taught in a school for Modern Orthodox girls and we sent students to Columbia, Princeton, Yale, NYU, Etc. The character of the Ultra Orthodox schools is a scandal but the Modern Orthodox yeshivas are profoundly different and some of the best in the country.
20
@Greg Jones Absolutely! Thank you for sharing your experience to help make this distinction more vivid.
3
Why are these private restrictive religious schools receiving government funding? How much do they receive?
111
@LC I don't think they receive any. But private schools are still subject to some degree of state education regulation.
2
@Ernie Cohen
They do receive funding in the form of subsidies for transportation, for books, and for special education. Religious schools that run pre-K programs also receive state and city money. The public funds they get are not insignificant.
69
@LC
I don't believe they receive education funding, but they do receive the tax benefits (mostly exclusion from taxation) of a religious institution, which is worth a lot.
5
My god, the city wants to make sure that high school kids are literate? The horror!!!
89
If the people of this city knew the scam that is being run here:
1. Completely fail to give your children a basic education at the Yeshivas. Boys, especially, "graduate" with English illiteracy, and complete ignorance of math, science, history, arts, etc.
2. Your children now have no possible hope of a vocation. The boys study Torah all day, while the girls maintain the house. They are immediately married and start having many, many children.
3. Who pays for all this? They are ALL on Medicaid and Welfare. This city is literally subsidizing a massive non-contributory (by intent) insular community.
How does an outsider get privy to this information? They still come into the city's public hospitals for urgent medical care, where they demand every possible procedure (useful or not), pay not a dime, and display a profound ignorance of the basic workings of the human body.
The children of this community are not prepared for the real world and this whole scheme amounts to systemic child abuse, which the city needs to address. Investigating the schools should be just the beginning.
272
They are not ALL on Medicare and welfare. Come on.
7
I've read NYT coverage of yeshivas for a couple of years now, and it left me in awe of and disgusted by the influence of Simcha Felder, who bullied and intimidated the State into its hands-off approach to the schools. I'm convinced that the functional illiteracy of these students contributes to the poverty and insularity of their communities and, yes, to their disturbing reliance on public funding for food, shelter and healthcare -- in short, their ability to spend their lives studying and practicing orthodox Judaism (and nothing else) and forcing their offspring to do the same. Tax dollars far beyond the "aid" provided to the schools makes it possible for generations of the ultra orthodox to maintain their religious lifestyles entirely at the expense of the public. Thank (read: blame) Felder for that. New Yorkers should demand an additional investigation into how this man got away with it. Thousands of occupationally-useless yeshiva graduates deserved better.
74
@Almost vegan That is pretty close to accurate. Kiryas Joel is considered to be the poorest place in the nation and has the highest per capita rate of people on public assistance in the US. They might not learn much in the Yeshivas but they have certainly learned how to game the system.
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-village-with-the-numbers-not-the-image-of-the-poorest-place.html
96
Another inspiring example of sophisticated political thinking in America: Allow hundreds of thousands of children to be brainwashed with primitive religious beliefs and denied a basic education for the sake of their parents' votes. Right up there with passing laws allowing large corporations to steal from ordinary people for the sake of their campaign contributions.
158
Primitive religious beliefs? Surely you didn’t mean to offend every follower of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism, etc, did you?
And if you did, you should recognize that the value you place on education is due in large part to the universal education given to Jewish boys and girls for more than 2000 years!
7
I intend to call all religious beliefs not based on emperical evidence. Yes, science began in religious institutions and then continued to move on. Science continues to discard primative beliefs based on human made fairytales.
30
Useless generalization. The educational standards of the Ultra orthodox are lower than any other organized religion. It amounts to an intense brain washing, it is a destructive cult. To compare it to other religious educational practices demonstrates the lack of knowledge of its adherents.
22
Way to go de blasio. Putting your re-election ahead of children. why am I not shocked by this? Pitiful excuse for a man and mayor.
34
@Margo Channing He's termed out. There is no reelection to worry about. Someone has to stand up to these people.
21
@Taxpayur
I thought Bloomberg was "termed out", until he wasn't.
6
This is easy and if done honestly will bring the obvious answer - subpar secular education in the many super orthodox yeshivas. Withhold funding until kids are properly taught science, math, English and more. Ridiculous that this corruption has gone on for so long.
85
@moosemaps And will continue to go on given these preposterous guidelines: "visit each school every five years"
13
@Ace I also picked up on that.
1
Withhold funding?
Anyone with kids might know how easy it is to just send kids to their room as punishment or when you’re exasperated instead of educating yourself in more effective ways of behavior modification. Not as easy as “go to your room!”
Instead of getting angry and wanting to punish, how about using your intellect and adequate education to come up with ideas and convincing argument so that they might just come to understand what you value in education and make genuine changes on their own accord, real changes coming from within.
1
Most students at Yeshivas receive a better than average secular education. The best to hope for and test for at the schools that do not meet basic standards are English proficiency and Math.
2
@Steve of Brooklyn This is the claim of "Steve".
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
--Christopher Hitchens
26
@Steve of Brooklyn
"Most students at Yeshivas receive a better than average secular education."
There's a Yeshiva in Lake Wobegon?
36
Steve-
Perhaps you are referring to the many Yeshivas that teach the full menu of secular subjects and which provide students with valid NYS high school diplomas. This controversy involves a specific subset of ultra orthodox Yeshivas in Brooklyn and upstate which do neither. It is unfortunate that all Yeshivas may get lumped together in public perception of this issue, but YAFFED was very clear in their original appeals to the Department of Education as to the names of the specific schools with his problem.
25