Some homes, built using a so called "3-D panel construction system", survived the flames. Rather than go into a long description, I suggest doing an internet search on the subject. Had these neighborhoods had been built in this manner, they would not have been wiped out. This system has been used in California and elsewhere.
BTW, I have no financial interest in the 3-D panel industry.
California has some of the greatest flakes in their government. And, some of the worst individuals living within its borders. It would take a cadre with brains to sort out this state, only the problem is that those with brains are working in computer science to better scam the public. One tip - DON'T LIVE WHERE THERE ARE CONSTANT FIRES! Also, watch out for the big earthquake.
I wonder whether any amount of EPA regulation or signing of the Paris accord could have prevented the the worst California wild fires which have irreversibly and irrepairably destroyed trees, human lives and the environment. The origins of these blazes seem to reckless human errors and stupidity that some how governments cannot control or prevent. That brings me to the point I have been trying to making that if we care about our environment we should begin with US as individuals by minimizing our own carbon emission and smoke foot prints while boycotting industries that pollute our environment.
1
When we are assigning blame and liability I hope we don't forget about elected Senators and Representatives and now a President who have denied climate science and change for decades. I hope fossil fuel based billionaires get some credit too. PG&E has been stringing wires through forests for a long time, but these fires are a new development. I do hope the consumers won't be stuck with the whole bill. Inhofe and Issa and the Kochs have contributed to this tragedy also.
Why is Chad Hanson the only researcher quoted on the question of fire spread? Nothing wrong with quoting him, but he tends to be an outlier on this question.
1
Just couldn't help but throw in the anti-gun paragraph, huh? Well played. Truth is that while bullets can, and do, spark when they strike certain surfaces, it might be more honest to include a list of other things that can cause sparks...including slingshots and kids throwing rocks.
1
It's harsh, but it needs to be said. Corporate greed at PG&E is killing people and destroying thousands of lives.
The disgraced, retired head of the California Public Utilities Commission - Michael Peevey - had been caught financially colluding with executives in all the California public utilities. He quit in disgrace in 2014.
Supposedly the California State Attorney General has been investigating his criminal activities for four years now. He has not been charged.
California needs to ELECT the members of the PUC, like many other states do. It should not be an appointed position.
PG&E is completely self-serving as they are not effectively regulated, as monopolistic utilities should be.
1
The presumption in this article that a fire "starts" with a spark is cave man thinking. Dry conditions initially start a fire. Lack of forestry management (scrub burning) starts a fire. Both of these conditions cause a fire. Both are necessary for a truly massive fire to occur. When a crash happens for faulty brakes, isn't it pertinent if the driver didn't have his brakes inspected in the last 10 years?
Many people have died because of poor forestry management practices. You cannot control rainfall, you can certainly put practices in place to help prevent forest fires.
And why is California borrowing a 747 from Colorado? Wouldn't that be on the high list of desired equipment given the Santa Anna winds?!
2
There is a cause for this fire, and as much as California will never admit it, it is their environmental policies that do not allow trees to be cut down in forests, and dead fall removed. Long ago, environmentalists stopped any intervention in forests, and created these death traps. Just another example of how environmentalists and a feeble government can band together and create their own disasters. The government and environmental groups should be held accountable.
1
ok, so now we think we might know what caused the fires.. ?? are we going to outlaw fixing posts or cutting wires or shooting some ammos. the nature of man is such that he (she) won't pay any attention to "trivial" laws because "it won't happen to me." A very ugly situation with no cure in sight.
Did domestic terrorists have a role in starting these fires? All possibilities must be investigated.
1
The study is necessary, but should be overseen from outside of CalFire, honestly outside of California. The likelihood of political tampering in this investigation is so high, and the consequences so serious, that it cannot be trusted to local authorities. This is not a criticism of California - it happens in every airplane crash where faulty design or maintenance may be the cause. Human nature will protect itself from blame. And there may be no "them" to blame. It may be a terrible confluence of events. But the tendency to find blame in "them" is all too tempting, and makes finding real solutions all the more difficult.
27
@Paul, you obviously see a political agenda - I wonder why, though. Do you really think most people are dishonest most of the time?
It's interesting that this kind of fear-based conspiracy logic is catered to by an entire segment of the media - that there is a significant population that seeks this kind of negative coverage, and that it repulses the rest of the population.
5
Surely there are ways to address this sort of thing. Just logging is not enough, fire breaks including some water from desalination efforts might be highly effective. Just as with hurricanes or floods if you do nothing the same thing happens again.
This might be a good time for a campaign to add supports for independent solar energy on new housing, and rebates or tax breaks for retrofits on existing buildings. Currently it costs about $100,000 to take a house off grid, but that's a lot cheaper than having to rebuild and replace everything.
@Kathleen Flacy, every home doesn't need to be totally offgrid, just less exposed, so the utility can shut down the lines during red-flag events without completely depriving customers of power.
At current prices, ~ $15,000 is adequate to supply an average home with all or most of its electricity, and anyone who doesn't want to be inconvenienced one iota could add a battery with capacity for one night's use, which would be plenty in CA ... and that's before state and fed tax credits.
Perhaps, before fire season starts -- although now in California, fire season is year round -- fire retardant substances can be applied to dry areas before fires start. This can be a year round effort by firefighters and those with firefighting equipment, such as planes and helicopters, to spray dry areas before fires start. It's the same monetary effort expended but applied before dry areas ignite.
Fire retardants are toxic. Spreading them around everywhere - "dry areas" in the CA case is basically everywhere except the northern coast - is a non-starter, from a cost and a health perspective.
Stopping the triggers makes much more sense.
1
Just ask Trump, in sure no one knows fires more than Trump.
4
If it takes so little to ignite a devastating fire, then it would have happened sooner or later anyway. It's a vast area that would have to be protected from even the smallest spark
2
When living in CA, I saw houses with wooden shingle roofs in know fire areas.
First step is to adjust fire insurance rates to risk
Then I found that most building in known seismic zones, such right at the top of the San Andreas fault south of SF or land fill did not have earthquake insurance
The common reply : When something big happens the government will bail us out
It is precisely because "the government" i.e. other tax payers , bail out folks that build in flood planes, on land fills in seismic zones, below the water level as in New Orleans, along the coast etc
The way to stop is to force people that insist doing this to pay realistic insurance rates - or it will continue
3
If you insist to build in a tinder box, any spark will set off a fire
The fact that when the fire got to the logged area it spread rapidly makes Trump’s claims that more logging is the answer all the more infuriating.
8
Yes, that claim is completely ignorant and wacky, but it's not just Dump and his pals - the logging outfits and a few retrograde "professional" foresters also spout that nonsense.
1
We are devastated for California. We obviously want to know the cause, the hopeful lesson, whose responsibility this is, but mostly, we feel we are caught in a straight jacket of grief and sorrow. We wonder, what can we do next for our California neighbors, no matter how near or far.
On the other hand, we stand on pins and needles with the arrival and “visit” of Donald Trump to the scene. We fear his insensitivity, his phony monologue, his insincere words of how much he cares, how much he personally is going to oversee what gets Donets “fix”. We fear what his actions might be, and beg him not to throw paper towels or any item into a grieving crowd. We hope he does not put on an apron or a MAGA cap and stir the soup for the workers and for those who have had enormous loss.
We just want Trump to take a look, and go home. He can boast, lie, sulk, pretend, whatever, back in DC with the First Lady at his side there. Californians nor anyone anywhere need to hear his false words and promises, see his stupid actions, or feel his gutless lack of humanity. There is plenty of devastation to go around. We will find out the cause and ramifications sooner probably than later. There is no need for any input from Donald Trump.
7
If I were to build a house in a forest area likely to experience fires, I would first build a basement in concrete, and line it to make it watertight, like a swimming pool. Then build the house on top of it, this would then be filled with water, for fire fighting should it be required.
A sprinkler system could then be installed to flood over the roof in the event of a fire.
In addition all trees would be removed that were too close to the house, to make a fire break, and the area kept clear of undergrowth, by mowing, frequently.
The additional cost of the basement would not be great, probably about the same as a cheap car, but the safety it could provide would be well worthwhile.
In the Paradise fires, cars became death traps.
The pool could also be used as a refuge in the event of a fire, or as a swimming pool, as long as the air volume above it was adequate, and the floor above was fireproof, probably concrete 'beam and block.'
This may seem extreme, but what price life or death.
Too many people, too much wind and too much drought. These factors collaborate to make California a dangerous place to live, going forward. CA is a beautiful state with a lovely climate. I'd love to live there myself now that I'm retired. When I visit my son in San Diego I get why people want to live there. The inherent problems in CA seem somewhat manageable until climate change enters the mix. The deadly fires there seem to give a glimpse of a dystopian future. Imagine what even a minor earthquake and the resulting fires would do to multiply this tragedy. Good luck to all there.
3
California has been settled by a large number of weirdos, because the climate is mild, The state provides residence to a host of libertines, who don't actually like the US as a country, but they realize it is still a better place to live in, than say, some third world place. And drugs are aplenty.
Among all the weirdos there are individuals, who express their distaste for the state and the country and wish to do harm. What better way to display it by committing arson?
1
Whenever I travel in the US, I always wonder: When will they come to their senses and start building real houses?
A lot of Americans may wonder now at that: What on Earth does he mean - we built houses and live in them.
True - and if needed (that's only cynical), or a big blaze or hurricane comes, you'll even die in them:
fn the case of a fire, as in California: Burning.
In case of a hurricane, as recently in Florida or Carolina: Getting blown to pieces.
But houses don't have to be that vulnerable.
Look at the Europeans - Yes, the Portuguese had some big fires, but only a few, and only old type houses perished. Storms generally do little harm.
And look at Asia: Typhoons in Hong Kong or around may do some harm, but much less than in US. What happen there is more like the typhoon disasters in the Philippines - and they live (outside cities) in wooden huts.
And, too much of the building in USA is still flimsy, fire-prone wood - not even thick timber beams like old medieval houses.
Brick and concrete are the answer, especially in danger areas such as forests or savannahs. But I have seen thin timber used in city-suburbs! What a nonsense!
As I said: I always wonder.
39
@JoBoost
It cost to much.
2
@JoBoost
Concrete lends itself to many designs at well, including ones which would withstand tornados and hurricanes.
Cost is a problem, especially for those who have old homes, but zoning is a problem. Many zoning and architectural advisory boards are trapped in stereotypes of what houses should look like, often designs unsuitable for the risks -- and very resistant to new concepts.
4
Because of earthquakes.
14
Why do people in other states gloat when bad stuff happens to California, but hold out their hands when the disaster is in their state? What makes you hate us, instead of feeling our pain?
4
Does it seem like that? Some people shouldn’t be allowed on the internet, when all they spew is nonsense and hate. Please stop paying attention to the wackos. Trust me — we are watching you like a hawk, sad and worried about all the people, animals, wildlife, and their respective houses. Sending love and donating to causes from Massachusetts. <3
4
California: TOP PRIORITY open up the coffers and pay for a statewide infrastructure project to bury the power lines.
3
Could it be that fire investigators encounter such unsurmountable difficulties while trying to pinpoint the sources of massive forrest fires because they are ignoring a highly likely cause: arson by sociopaths? It has been well known among forensic scientists and psychiatrists since the early 20th Century, and documented in cases of numerous serial killers who were captured and interrogated, that compulsive fire-setting is a frequent personality trait among homicidal sociopaths, particularly during their youth. Arson is a virtually untraceable crime, especially in isolated, uninhabited, remote locations. When a gigantic forest blaze can be ignited with a spark from a hammer, an arsonist does not need to employ accelerants that might be detected after the fire has burned itself out. With all the time in the world to find a location with no observers, places that will burn easily, during dry seasons when fires spread quickly, causing massive destruction and sadistic death, homicidal sociopaths have no fear of getting caught in the act. Looking for historical examples? You might start with Peter Kurten, in Germany in the 1920s.
1
It’s easy to blame the utilities, but they are in a no-win situation. People were up in arms when PG&E proactively shut off power the other week during a red flag warning. Not to mention how difficult some homeowners can be when utilities come around to trim trees. We can’t have it both ways. Electricity = fire risk. That said, blame is rightly apportioned to climate change + 100 years of federal fire supression policy for the extreme ferocity of these fires. I’m thankful all I have to complain about is air quality. Commuting today in my N95 mask, seeing many others wear theirs, and many homeless with no respite...I felt like I was living in a dystopian future. I have a hard time conceiving what it will be like as the effects of climate change worsen, but I suppose we’ll all find out soon enough.
33
@J
You just don't see this rickety electricity on poles distribution in much of Europe.
Distribution is underground.
3
@Talesofgenji
That's not necessarily true, Germany still has a lot of electrical utilities above ground, but they have a wetter region to contend with.
1
Should PG&E consider underground lines?
Californians need to face the fact that they can no longer live among the trees in electrified homes, in the setting of drought conditions. Houses need to be limited to cities and towns. not in forests, or there will be no forests.
5
Considering the sorts of human causes for terribly destructive fires, it seems likely to me that, whoever may have been at fault, will lack the resources to compensate the victims. Trying to find the individual who negligently set off a spark, worked on a fence post in a field of dry vegetation, or lit a backyard barbecue will likely lead you to someone who has $500 to pay for millions of losses. What's the point?
2
As with the proverbial "stitch in time will save nine", perhaps it is about time all utilities were buried into the ground. This would protect against outages of electricity, as well as damage caused by fallen poles, and in the long run be cheaper, and more environmentally sensitive.
1
The reasons for ignition of a fire seem to be many and varied. No way to completely prevent ignition.
It's going to happen.
The condition of the trees and brush is, perhaps, something that can be controlled or altered.
But, the wind…
I live not too far from Paradise and last week, when that dry, intense, sustained wind came up, I knew trouble was coming. I've seen it many times. Any ignition of brush or other flammable material when it's windy is a disaster about to happen.
I think we should have a public education effort about the wind.
It's deadly.
"When the wind blows, the fires goes."
Or "A spark when there's wind means fire with no end."
Wind should set off an alarm in all our heads.
Human error is something that can be lessened. We alter human behavior with concerted efforts all the time. From anti-smoking campaigns to anti-heart attack diets to anti-speeding laws.
People need to feel that deadly, dry wind and react with extreme caution till the windy period ends.
One less campfire or lawnmower or spark-producing machine used in a brush area.
It all helps.
Let's take the human factor out of the equation the best we can. Especially on windy days.
And, of course, a better job by PG&E with their power lines… underground them as much as possible and cut back tree limbs that rip them down…
When it's windy.
6
The Camp Fires' possible electrical sources makes the case for distributed solar photovoltaics energy generation. In a centralized Grid, power is transmitted by high-voltage cables that are stepped-down to householders.
Any voltage can spark an electrical fire. The higher the voltage the higher probability that a rouge electrical charge can start a fire within range of fire kindling debris. If vegetation surrounding the cables is exceptionally dry fire risk increases.
Power corridors are meant to provide clear areas to allow linesmen to work efficiently - i.e.) cherry-picker vehicles access and curtail vegetation growth.
If the utility doesn't conform to safety rules and the brush become dry and higher than regulations permit, the potential for wild fires increase, and utilities become liable for damages.
Distributed power generation and storage is localized, compared to grid-centric power generation and transmission. A solar power plant using a ground-based bi-directional tracker optimizes solar irradiance onto the solar array generator while requiring a reduced footprint.
A mandatory systems isolation switch can automatically and manually shut-down the solar generator's power in the event of a local fire, thereby "Islanding" the local solar system from the grid: fires are contained, and linesmen safety enhanced.
And its the best way to curtail fossil fuel electricity generators that contribute to Greenhouse Gases, global warming and climate change.
2
Ironically, now is a good time to buy PG&E stock. Ultimately, it will be the PG&E ratepayers who will pay for the vast majority of damages done as a result of PG&E negligence. It is inevitable.
2
I write as a 30+ year resident of CA. I see the primary, the root problem here is people living in the wild land/urban interface. I look for counties to make significant changes to building codes, (or maybe state building codes?) to account for this and require new structures to have better protections against fire.
At some point the public shouldn't have the bear the cost and risk of providing structure protection for people who make a choice to take the risks to live in a high fire danger area.
3
It's not a PG&E issue at all. It's an issue of people living in a region where they shouldn't be. No people, no PG&E.
5
No worries. Trump is gonna visit and assess the damages. He'll fix it. He has the bigliest knowledge of all things. He knows what to do...
3
I wonder how reliable this science behind this process is. I've read that old techniques for determine fire cause are faulty and unreliable, and that more scientific rigor has been called for in these kinds of investigations. These very large, very fast, very hot fires may not behave like other kinds of fires and thus, the same methods of determining cause may not be reliable.
7
After the recover of remains, next removal and disposal of what was left, and then building anew. CA has done this before, yet begs the question what have they learned. Property owners home and property insurance normally calls for replacement of what was lost on location, if so they're just repeating a failed model with current climatic conditions.
13
@Gretna Bear-Ditto for rebuilding in flood plains, in tornado paths, and on coastal areas subject to hurricanes.
4
@Ann agreed, a comment suggested all of CA is a wildfire waiting to ignite. Who insures property afterwards? I now live in a hvy snow prone area, we get buried, yet it melts in time and life continues, not sure after fire destroys a complete community. Wish all of CA the best, we loved to ski the Tahoe area, yet natural snows depths have gone with 'global warming.' Current summit depths at 18 inches.
1
There are 81,000 miles of overhead electrical distribution lines vs. 18,000 buried. It costs 1 million a mile to bury in unpaved areas. Make a guess of 40,000 miles of overhead passing through high risk area - so 40 billion to bury that. 40 million CA populatio, so average 1000 per head. Spread over 10 years $100 per head per year average. Entirely possible - but if PGE is in charge they will simply do nothing but drag it out in court for 10 years - after which there will be at least 10 years times 4 billion a year in new damages.
5
@Craig H.
Craig, high voltage transmission lines, like many of those in the area moving Northern Hydro to the Coast cost much, much more than $1 million per mile to underground. In fact very high voltage lines have to be placed in conduit that is filled with oil to keep the lines cool. Given the wild terrain and changes in elevation the oil with have to be pumped to locations where it can be cooled, which means fairly high pressure lines that if they rupture, could cause a terrible environmental disaster, particularly along the Sacramento River drainage. At this point this the only option is high voltage transmission lines while moving toward vastly more distributed generation which could lessen the risk of transmission line issues. Tough issue for sure.
12
@Craig H. Can't bury lines in mountain granite.
2
@Craig H. Better idea; forget about power lines. Individual solar on every house. In sunny Cali that should be a no brainer.
2
If I were King of California, I'd see to it that every house situated in a tinderbox area has solar power rather than electricity delivered by wire. PG&E can help pay for it out of their savings from not having to string wires and maintain the power lines. And...when times get really rough it will be the houses that are off the grid that can fire up their computers while everyone else suffers from outages.
A good time to start would be now, during the rebuilding stage.
22
@Ravenna - yes, but...storage of that daytime-only PV power is still a major problem, unfortunately. Battery technology is still not cost-effective...though arguably when the final cost of this Great Conflagration (not to mention climate-impact costs of NOT using decentralized renewable power, which get externalized on all of us) it MIGHT be, even now.
10
It's unreal that across much of the US power lines are above ground. From the fires out west, tornados in the middle of the country, hurricanes in the south and east, and snow/ice in the north, power outages can be significantly reduced with underground electrical lines. The upfront cost would be high but worthwhile. Unfortunately the US doesn't do forward thinking any longer.
30
@Daniel Savino
Danial, because various regulators make it very difficult to build new gas transmission lines to fuel more decentralized generation, high voltage transmission lines will remain critical to the grid stability. At this point it is not technically feasible to underground high voltage transmission lines. Each of the conductors would have to be placed in a pipe filled with oil. The oil would be circulated to radiator coolers to strip the heat. This oil filled pipe conductor system is exceeding expensive, further it poses an extreme environmental risk if the very high pressure oil filled lines were to rupture along the Sacramento river shed. This is a problem requiring a long term solution, that at this point has no political support to do it.
8
@Steve O What's the reason they don't insulate the electric lines?
2
It doesn’t matter how it started. If the environment is right, and it was, with a lot of drought-prepped vegetation to work with and the right atmospheric dymanics, anything will suffice. In Colorado there have been devastating fires cause by burning love letters, by a four days old campfire on the mountain property of a firefighter, by a stump that got hit by lightning three days before disaster. This article points out other odd ways it can happen. Better to focus on inadequate forest management resources.
5
@Paul Schultz Thanks--See my comment too. I live in Bailey, but we've both had our share. The Denver Post recognized Front Range fire danger as a huge threat back in the early 1990s. Several joint research projects started to convert wood into methanol. Also, my county has diligently worked with Forest Service to thin Ponderosa pines, then chip them on site to sell as mulch for Denver Parks. My neighbor just built a house with a cement roof and walls--it's essentially inflammable except for heat through the windows. In Calif., companies are turning rice straw, grasses, ladder fuels, and soft-wood trees---all kinds of flammable waste-- into ethanol. Every state needs an energy policy suitable for its particular problems. I don't know what to do about climate change, but as Gov. Jerry Brown said the other day, we need to ADAPT. We can do so much more especially to clean up burnable stuff and be careful with fire at home as well as utilities.
2
@Paul Schultz
I know this is serious and all but I started dying from laughter at burning love letters and the campfire on a firefighter's mountain property
1
Fire suppression still tragically missing from NYT coverage. In a somewhat arid climate such as California's there aren't a lot of ways for wood to disappear other than smoke. Wood decay is very slow. So every year that goes without a fire in a region is a year of burning material accumulating and getting drier. Removal is a possibility near settlements, but too expensive statewide. Logging often modifies forests in ways that make them more fire prone (because mature trees are of economic interest). I believe controlled burns, when winds are calm and blowing away from settlements, is the only solution. It was nature's solution before man started putting out fires. But there may be other solutions, as long as we stop considering only immediate causes.
10
@Skinny hipster
Now would be a good time to organize some pilot projects. Considering what happened to Paradise there must be small towns all over the west willing to run the (very small) risks involved in a controlled burn. Perhaps Cal Fire could drum up some grant money, hire some new people and get the ball rolling.
I guess arson is out of the question? Blame power companies, smokers, and the homeless.
2
@Rodrian Roadeye Arson is always considered as possible causes . Both the Holy Fire and Carson Fire were blamed on arson.
1
@Rodrian Roadeye
Arson is certainly a possibility but being that (supposedly) 17 of the last 21 wildfires were the fault of the electric power companies, it's a lot easier to go after the deep pockets, especially for lawyers.
After Hurricane Michael devastated Florida, I saw many NYT comments that people shouldn't be allowed to build near the coast anymore; or that blue state tax dollars shouldn't go to rebuilding. Now I see a few saying the same thing about California; that people have to "assume the risk" of living in a wooded area.
Just in case no one has every told you before, there is risk no matter where you live.
I have no doubt that climate change has played a substantial part in the frequency and scale of the fires in California. But from everything I've read, PG&E's negligence caused the fire. If PG&E was required to used shielded wires, to trim trees around the power lines and failed to do so; that's negligence. And shame on those legislators that passed a bill protecting PG&E from having to foot the bill.
Private corporations are going to put profits before safety every single time. The only way that will ever change is if those running these corporations are held responsible. Investigate who made the decision to ignore safety regulations and charge them with criminal negligence resulting in death. Because even if PG&E files bankruptcy to avoid paying the bill, the president, board members, etc., are going to still walk away with their millions of dollars intact.
22
@Patty O There has been no determination of the cause of the fire, let alone determination of fault or negligence. Everything you have read is speculation.
2
@Patty O Like corporate taxes, legal bills will come out of the rate payers hide even if or especially if bankruptcy. And, as usual who will the winners be? LAWYERS!
1
@Patty O
Patty, this is no reason to believe that PG&E has put profits before safety, no evidence what so ever. Look it is public policy makers who, for their own selfish get me reelected reasons limit the width of right of ways a utility can use. They often require the utility to place one or even two additional power lines in the same right of way because they don't want to upset the voters. Engineers need to be given the flexibility to design, locate, build and maintain power lines in these fire prone areas. This will not change until the voters through the bums out and elect persons who will respect solid engineering and support utilities to follow the standards necessary rather than, in their own blissful ignorance and with political motives as their only motives. Hopefully this tragedy will help led to changes in standards and policy to effect change.
3
This a perfect example of why infrastructure is vital to the very lives and habitats of our population. Our priorities have, for the most part, been lax when it comes to using funds for repairing and/or rebuilding the very basic things we take for granted.
Does it make sense to have overhead electrical wires in areas prone to harsh winds, snow, etc. There is always those who want to place blame; Trump is after Governor Brown and his "mismanagement of the forest service" citing this as the reason for the massive fires in the state.
In California causes are many and complex. Many of the fires and many causes; brush and chaparral near Malibu which was very dry due to drought conditions; nothing to do with the forests.
"Governor Brown doubled the amount of land open to vegetation thinning, to 500,000 acres from 250,000 acres. And, then, there are federal and states restrictions on logging. Trees in federal forests where timber harvesting is prohibited have high mortality rates from wildfire, and dying trees currently outpace new growth." Yes, President Trump and others neglect to mention that Federal Government's jurisdiction plays a part, as well.
5
The molten metal in your cover photo for this article looks like lead.
It makes me wonder of all other sorts of contaminants may have seeped into the environment as a result.
2
@Truth Is True
It's aluminum. Most engine blocks are made of aluminum now and some frames are made with aluminum too. I'm surprised the alloy wheel didn't melt.
16
@Truth Is True
Lead from the batteries, but that's aluminum.
1
@Truth Is True
Truth it is the melted aluminum engine block of the truck next to it. The blocks melt at relatively low temperature.
This headlong dive to blame the electrical company highlights the utter stupidity of our tort system. Unless someone can prove that the fire was started by a defective transmission line this fire should be classified as an "Act of God". What if it was caused by a careless smoker? Are we going to sue him for 100 billion dollars in damages????? The whole idea that there is always someone to blame is patently ridiculous and an utter waste of time. If the fire was caused by decrepit, falling down electrical lines that didn't meet regulations, well then the company should be responsible, otherwise give it a rest.
14
Not to rain on the tort reform parade, but there is a radio transmission recording of a PG&E employee reporting the start of the fire, and PG&E reported a sparking transmission line near the start of the fire prior to the start of the fire. Fire officials found downed power lines near the start of the fire. So, as they say, where there's smoke...
14
@EdRead AJF's comment... PG&E is responsible due to the line failure. They asked property owner to access and their data showed sparking in the lines...
CalFire will prove but they won't jump into the circus of blame until they can positively PROVE. It as the article points out will require time and investigation. They will not go to court on the circus parade of "... they are at fault...".
1
"A changing climate is potentially part of the Camp Fire’s story, in deepening patterns of drought in California."
Potentially? Not to jump to any conclusions or anything like that.
3
@jgury Burnt area has been estimated as 5 times as high as it is currently before man showed up in North America. Would you blame that on Global Warming as well?
1
Is a colossal waste of time, fire will happen. These forested towns they all need watch towers, and if the government won't do anything, you live there, do it yourselves, can't be complacent.
6
@Bobb Why do you say that this is a waste of time? Would you say do it yourselves if an Earthquake hit San Francisco? We all need to stick together and support each other while ALSO making informed decisions. This is a large task that we must all rise up and meet together because we all are affected.
Our town is very similar in location and situation to Paradise. Many of the recent small fires we have had here at the interface of forest and development are due to homeless camps, where people may use open flame for cooking.
6
@Ryan Smith Well we better house them then!
1
Fast Facts about PG & E from their website
Service area stretches from Eureka in the north to Bakersfield in the south, and from the Pacific Ocean in the west to the Sierra Nevada in the east.
106,681 circuit miles of electric distribution lines and 18,466 circuit miles of interconnected transmission lines.
42,141 miles of natural gas distribution pipelines and 6,438 miles of transmission pipelines.
5.4 million electric customer accounts.
4.3 million natural gas customer accounts.
8
The USA is strung with power lines from coast to coast. In the category of “You can pay me now or you can pay me later:” If we are ready to admit that power lines are dangerous then the lines should all be re-routed underground.
Instead of extracting millions of dollars from utilities after the fact, let’s front the bill and eliminate at least one culprit.
22
@LivingWithInterest Solar, not power lines.
1
How many more of these fires will it take along with other power outages caused by downed overhead lines, for electric companies to finally put these lines underground where they always belonged in the first place. They whine about how expensive it would be. Ha!!! How many lives, how many homes, and lives ruined have resulted from overhead power line failuresand fires from one cause or another? Not to mention during freezing and stormy conditions, how many hours do people and businesses remain in the dark with resulting finacial losses in the millions and billions? California- how about a referendum to mandate that all electrical lines be placed underground? Same here in Oregon. Please, no more worn out and lame money excuses. Oh, I forgot. Profits over people.
14
@lou andrews First of all, undergrounding is very expensive, and ratepayers have to take on some of that cost. Second, undergrounding is not a solution; it has its own drawbacks- it's very expensive to maintain, it is harder to find problems, it is harder to fix problems, etc. Undergrounding isn't feasible for electric transmission, particularly in remote and mountainous areas.
10
@lou andrews
Lou, I don't believe for a second that PG&E or any utility puts profits before customer safety. The issue is engineering feasibility, high voltage underground lines have to be installed in steel pipe filled with oil to cool the conductor. Given the amazingly rugged terrain with many changes in elevation it is not only costly, but very problematic as to being possible. Not to mention that an oil filled pipeline, with oil circulating under pressure to radiation type devices in order to shed heat, pose a significant environmental risk by itself. Not to mention the oil pipeline located along the Sacramento river water shed.
7
@ck- I disagree. Some 20 years ago out in rural west central Oregon, mostly forested land, friends of mine who owned 20 acres had their overhead lines placed underground by the local power company due to chronic power outages from falling branches and high winds which could not be corrected. It is possible, but the lame excuse being used that it costs too much rather, is it cost the share holders too much, and that health safety and reliable constant power comes in second in these companies' eyes. Again, how much is a human life worth and secondly, how much are the tens if not hundreds of homes, businesses and land worth when they are lost to power outages, and wildfires. PG&E might go bankrupt due to the the last two years of fires alone in California. How many billions is that? Much higher, i bet, than the cost of placing power lines underground. Just think, if these were done say, 10 years ago, at a much cheaper cost, it would have paid for itself in just a couple of years of fires and power outages that affected the customers.
2
PG & E needs to be forced to upgrade its infrastructure if it has been responsible for starting so many fires. Burying power lines might be useful.
There should also be serious scientific study in how to minimize the spread of fires. Removing deadwood and brush from fire zones, creating wide fire breaks and so on should be prioritized if they are effective. It might also be helpful not to build homes in fire zones.
This problem will not go away until a major paradigm shift in preventative management occurs.
22
@Peter
What exactly do you designate a "fire zone"? A place that has trees? A place where there has been a fire before - in the history of the world? There hasn't been a fire in Paradise before. A place where a fire could happen? It's pretty difficult in a state like California, which is full of trees, to say "not to build homes in fire zones". That would limit building to parts of Southern California, which, in fact, has very few trees. Yet it does have fires, and pretty bad ones, from time to time. Don't build in California? Well, I have to suggest that people who don't want to shovel snow all winter stop moving here in such droves. This was basically a retirement community, which makes it even sadder, and you suggest they chose a "fire zone" to retire to. Because it has trees? Would you say that if it were in New Hampshire? The difference is that it rains in New Hampshire in the summer.
21
@Peter
That's up to the government and people of California. We already know what causes and how to prevent wildland fires. People just have to do it.
3
@Seagazer101 There hasn't been a fire in Paradise before? Try 2008. From the NYT:
After a wildfire tore through the area in 2008, Paradise put together a detailed plan, hoping to make emergency evacuations swift and orderly, with residents leaving according to their neighborhoods. “We actually practiced this about a year and a half ago,” Jones said. Yet on Thursday morning, when the fire approached with intense speed, any idea of an orderly evacuation fell apart. “I don’t know that you could build the infrastructure to evacuate an entire town that quickly,” Jones said. “I just don’t know if that’s possible.”
12
PG&E is working night and day to get themselves nationalized.
How many more do they get to kill with immunity?
All that their shareholders care about how healthy will their dividend check be?
Given the Dow this morning, I suspect that some have indigestion this morning....
But at least they are still alive, unlike the hundreds of victims over the last decade or so.
The opposite of "privatize" is "nationalize".
3
@rosa It would not be nationalized. There are several structures that might fit. Like the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. Check the American Public Power Association.
@rosa
PG&E doesn't pay a dividend at this time, a legacy of crazy regulatory and environmental policies in California.
I believe there is a whole Science section article that can be written about that photograph. The silver "streams" appear to be the car's melted aluminum engine block, which occurs at lower temperatures than steel (like the intact car body and bumper beam). But the question is why didn't the aluminum wheels melt--they appear to be factory forged aluminum vs. the cast engine block, not exotic magnesium. So what spared them--the forging process, or something added to their alloy? Can probably help pinpoint a much closer temperature range in this fire, and suggest more robust fire resistant materials.
11
@Rickske
The fire inside the engine compartment was confined and aided with other combustibles. The wheel was on the outside where the heat wasn't concentrated and could dissipate.
7
My condolences to the families going through this. Northern California is going through this with you.
It’s amazing how much it has impacted people across the state. UC Davis and Sacramento State have shut down this week due to poor air quality and so have many elementary and high schools all the way back to Sonoma County who was affected last year. Whether they are close or far from the fires, I have witnessed an almost unconditional generosity and friendship in supporting victims. California is a beautiful state and this tragedy profoundly affects us all.
24
What a game these people play with fixing blame when a disaster strikes. How can they really determine with any certainty how such a fire started when the conditions are so ripe for a fire in the first place. They might as well blame Mother Nature for the dry conditions and poor housekeeping like fire inspectors can do with a structure fire. But you can't get money from Mother Nature so let's find a way to make some money and blame the power company. What if a homeless man caused the fire with a cigarette? No money there, but if he tossed his cigarette near a power line they could say the power line caused the fire. That's more like it!
Determining a fire origin is speculation unless it's really obvious, like a can of gasoline or an actual witness.
Another reason they will focus people's attention on "Who started it !?" will be to distract from the more significant problem of poor planning and poor notification or warning of the residents who burned to death. The local and state governments don't want to blamed, and sued, for any negligence on their part. No, we have to get even the news media on board to avoid that. They understand, we'll be ruined, the county will be bankrupt. It's better for all if we blame the power company. They have billions of dollars.
6
@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus
i think the point of the investigation of how a major devastating fire started is to prevent the causes in the first place, which is why they discussed the logging practices and whether it helped or hindered the fire. this stuff is not a blame game, but rather to deepen our understanding of fire prevention so that we can avoid major catastrophes. learn from our mistakes so that we can do better.
14
@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus
It's called Science. It actually works.
9
@anna
That sounds good, as if you were discussing a structure fire or a pipeline explosion but with a forest fire in such conditions, anything could have sparked the fire. It's out of control for anyone to predict or manage. Of course they have to investigate to try and find a cause but with a forest fire sometimes it just isn't possible. Forest fires aren't a rare occurrence. One might easily call them an Act of God, an official insurance term used in contracts. We already know what causes them. Once they start burning it doesn't matter. It's bound to happen no matter what the individual cause. Just rekindle the Smokey Bear program, "Only you can prevent forest fires."
My point is that the media detracts attention from things that can be managed and where legitimate fault can be found, the failure of the civil authorities with the actual responsibility to prepare and prevent a predictable disaster that happens every year in California. There might be 150 people dead from this fire. They failed to warn people in previous fires and people died. All we heard were excuses and this year it's worse with even more preventable deaths. They will blame the rich power company.
1
Chem trails is the flint that kept this fire burning. the aluminum in the soil and everything...They need to stop
3
I do not want PG&E to go bankrupt but that is exactly what will happen as PG&E has become a scapegoat
for these fires. When power is disconnected in these
situations to prevent fires many people sue PG&E to complain about their losses. Simply cutting power
whenever these conditions occur is not a viable solution. This is the new abnormal.
Do we really want that state to take over from PG&E? Rates would go through the roof and service would suffer.
8
@GolferBob
You might be surprised. Look into the history of energy supply. State control might be great.
3
@Sandra Campbell the state has a hard time maintaining its infrastructure, from roads to bridges to dams. You'd add electrical lines to that mix?
1
Gun target practice? Certain types of ammunition can cause fires? Swell. Yet more reasons to ban most guns.
7
@Beverly RN
The types of ammunition the liberal anti gun crowd mandated.
1
With all due respect to the victims of these disasters, at some point aren't we just asking who put the last straw on the camel's back?
In southern Oregon, we've had 6 of the last 7 summers wrecked by wildfire smoke. Many large fires were started by lightning, at least one was by a guy mowing a field, and quite a few have been caused by cars throwing sparks. Last year the Columbia gorge burned because some kid threw a smoke bomb from a trail.
Our local paper claims it will 'hold politicians accountable' - no more smoke! Cut the trees before they burn, or burn them before they burn, or cut them and then burn them before they burn. It would be funny if it weren't sad. Just look at a map of Paradise with the fires and logging of the last 15 years drawn around it. The efficacy of that strategy is perfectly evident - doesn't work, will never work.
Next years fires are virtually guaranteed to be the worst ever, except for the year after that, and on, and on. The new climate is hungry for the vestiges of the old, and the transition period is going to be long and ugly.
28
Wow. When it is possible for a lawn mower hitting a rock to cause death, destruction and a couple billion dollars in losses, maybe the environment is telling you it is groaning under your [well-tanned] weight?
On the east coast we have discussions about whether it is wise for tax dollars to go toward protecting unsustainable beach homes when hit by our very infrequent hurricanes. I trust our west coast brethren have this discussion about the tens of thousands of homes quaintly nestled amid huge tinderboxes when these fires are so uncontrollable and occur so frequently.
13
@Clotario except we aren't talking about protecting a few at risk homes. These are towns, communities and cities. The entire state of California is suffering from the effects of drought and is really at risk. Where shall all 40 million of us go?
11
@Tim Wide fire breaks, wider than currently mandated should surround entire towns, bury what transmission lines can be buried, and I guess follow the best fire science available when it comes to preventing fire spread. In my area it's all brush fires, much easier to fight than forest fires, but those of us who live in the country get out our tractors every year and re-do our fire breaks as widely as we can. Even though we have brush, not tall trees, fire can most extremely fast, and we have farming machine-caused fires every year without suing John Deere. California may have to give up some of it's beautiful forests, as this drought is not going to end any time soon.
2
@Tim
Did not address my statement. So you are proposing no changes, and acknowledging that Californians are NOT talking about the wider ramifications of their actions? Is the answer shrugging your shoulders because sooooo many of you have crammed into an arid and fuel-rich environment?
3
1) I don't think the News Media was doing a service for its viewers when it uncritically published California Governor Jerry Brown's claim that much of California's forests are managed by the federal Forest Service. Brown's statement, in my opinion, was deliberately deceitful given the massive barrage of lawsuits filed continually against the Forest Service by environmental groups trying to coerce the Service into following their political agendas:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269401491_Twenty_Years_of_Forest_Service_Land_Management_Litigation
Why isn't the News Media holding those environmental groups and California's Ninth Circuit Court to account for their past actions? How many people have died from these fires?
1
@Don Williams, not everything the USFS does is in service of preventing forest fires. Quite a bit of it is intended to do quite unrelated things, like: helping skiing area owners to make big money, leasing grazing lands to ranchers at below-market rates, and allowing foreign interests to extract minerals and water from public lands for private profits. The USFS is a multiple-use agency, and financial interests very often take precedence over any kind of environmental interests. If you want forests managed for forest health, multiple-use management is not the way to do it. Ecological benefits such as stand health, water retention, and community income from recreational uses are hard to quantify and all too often left out of the cost-benefit analysis.
5
Why is it that in a poor country such as Bosnia, the power is transmitted through underground wiring, while in the wealthiest country on earth (or so we have been told) we use cheaper overhead wiring that repeatedly fails in bad weather and starts fires at other times?
18
@Kayemtee undergrounded electrical lines are not foolproof. They can get damaged from earthquakes, water, land movement, etc., and when there are problems in underground electric facilities, the problems are more difficult to identify and repair. It is also extremely expensive and, in many cases, not appropriate (transmission through mountains, for example). It's not a solution in an of itself.
8
@Kayemtee Bosina is so small in comparisons to CA's transmission requirements. As to Europe in general, some counties as Germany buries almost all of its low-voltage and medium-voltage power lines, the lines that serve individual homes and apartments. Not so high voltage transmission lines, the type suggested caused this and other CA fires.
10
@Kayemtee I believe it's very hard to put wires underground in some areas, such as the mountainous terrain where these fires started
7
What a conundrum. Lead bullets don't spark but the liberal ecologists are the ones who want to ban lead bullets and replace them with steel, which does spark on impact.
3
@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus ammunition is just one of a thousand things that can start a fire in our great state. While we have the toughest gun laws in the nation, we also have many hunters and gun enthusiasts in CA, probably more than any other state because of our population, especially in rural areas (which covers the majority of the state geographically speaking). If preventing fires were as simple as lead bullets, i'm sure it would be addressed. This issue isn't about guns, this article is simply pointing out a fact of one of the many causes of the hundreds of fires we have every year.
4
@Tim
And thus my comments elsewhere on the futility of fixing blame for something that will happen no matter what the individual cause. Maybe it's not so futile because if they blame an entity with money they can get a payoff . If they fix blame on the rich power company the citizenry will forget the authority's failure to have an effective warning, prevention and evacuation plan in place. Such planning is required where I live and a plan that doesn't work in reality doesn't count.
1
@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus I don't think it's just about "blaming" people or institutions. But finding why and how a fire started leads us to do what we can to prevent those same mistakes from happening again. Look we know we will never prevent fires from happening again, and we can't stop people from doing stupid things. But in CA during high winds we are warned not to do certain things that could cause fires, because investigation has shown us why fires stared. Power companies turn off power in remote areas during high winds because investigation has shown power lines to be the culprit. It's not just about blaming and getting money. It's also about doing what we can to prevent it from happening again in that way. It's also important to remember education and planning doesn't always work. Everyone in CA is aware of the fire risk, it's part of our lives. But if a fire starts in the middle of the night and sweeps through a town, people often don't have time to get out. It's not like a hurricane. There is often no warning.
If our electric grid cannot handle what we have plugged in already -- the equipment overheat and start fires -- what will happen when we plug in the battery cars everybody is making now?
Remember, battery cars get ALL their power through the grid.
Hydrogen cars, on the other hand, get their power from the hydrogen they carry on board. This distinction alone should prompt our Energy Secretary to lay out plans to build a national hydrogen infrastructure.
2
@George Kafantaris Our Energy secretary? Rick Perry? Are you serious? This administration wants nothing to do with saving anything except the money they seem to hide. Sorry, but I've strong reservations of this type of intelligent design to come forth during any GOP held administration or congressional hold...
It is sad that their belief is themselves first, second, and third with zero beliefs of the nation or its people outside of their sphere.
6
It will be interesting to see the entire California electric system crash under the weight of this lawsuit or watch the rates triple. As a public utility the one entity that will not bear the burden is the electric company. The rate payers and taxpayers will foot 100% of the judgement if there is one.
I'm equally certain that the company will produce evidence that it all could have been avoided but for rate increase denials by the state that were suppose to improve the infrastructure.
2
@ed That is not how it works in California. The utilities are regulated, and their ability to set rates and recover costs for repairs, rebuilding, etc. are determined by the state Public Utilities Commission. The utilities cannot simply pass all of these costs to consumers.
5
@ed In San Diego, we had on record one of the worst fires in the state up until this year. SDGE was not allowed to pass it on to us.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/energy-green/sd-fi-sdge-wildfirecaseruling-20171130-story.html
2
I believe that Lighting is the prevalent cause of fires in many forest and desert areas. I looked it up because some years ago we witnessed a lightning strike on a large remote desert tree on an otherwise partly cloudy afternoon. I’m not saying this was the cause or origin in the current incidents but it should be eliminated as a factor.
3
@macbloom
Lighting is on the list of potential causes. And I think it is pretty straightfoward to eliminate - was there atmostpheric electrical activity when the fire was started? No, not lightning.
Historically, lightning has been a common cause of wildland fires and, in fact, is responsible for the natural fire cycles that many of these ecosystems evolved with.
However, humans have introduced many, many potential ignition sources to the equation. And in CA, humans are responsible for the vast majority of ignitions:
"Moreover, the convergence of warming trends and expanded ignition pressure from people is increasing the number of large human-caused wildfires. Currently, humans are extending the fire niche into conditions that are less conducive to fire activity, including regions and seasons with wetter fuels and higher biomass."
https://wildfiretoday.com/documents/HumanVsLightningFires.pdf
3
@macbloom PG&E electric transmission lines caused this, not "lighting" (sic)
They should use deep learning (AI) from either satellites or roaming drones combined with local drone fleets for rapid confirmation of possible false positives to cost efficiently detect fires early and have a guaranteed early containment response. I think this is entirely possible with current technology today.
10
@Andrei Pokrovsky I agree. In this day and age there is no reason for us to be in the dark where fires are concerned. Ideally there should be satellites dedicated to watching for any spark in high danger areas like this. They should be tracking every smoking chimney, outdoor flame, running engine, and lit cigarette anywhere remotely close to a high danger fire zone.
Maybe Hollywood has made me naive about what is technologically possible but surely we can do better than calculated guesses after months of investigations. Why don't we know more than we do now about this fire? What would fix that? This should be the main focus and concern.
7
@Andrei Pokrovsky The fire started at 6:30 am, miles away. The town was gone by 1 pm. Early detection doesn't mean squat if you can't physically get manpower ahead of the fire due to its speed. If the fire is covering a football field a second like this thing was the best thing early detection can do is sound an evacuation alarm.
13
It's good to read scientists coming forward to connect the dots between a changing climate and all these floods, fires, hurricanes and superstorms, rather than read about them as tragic and isolated events that happened somewhere else to other people. I hope climate scientists will continue to speak out, so we don't get anymore headlines like this one I read this morning in my local paper: "Montana mines more coal, despite tough economy." Good grief!
22
One of the few things that dramatically changed business behavior are significant financial losses and/or lawsuits.
One might ask why PG&E is spending money lobbying instead of actively working to replace old infrastructure and to actively (and expensively) modify existing infrastructure with physical assets that are not as prone to creating sparks and causing fires?
When I see companies spending money on lobbyists instead of change, it tells me that the executives and board members of said company are more concerned about maintaining short-term profit over maintaining overall company health — and in this case also the health and physical well-being of the entire community, which includes all the company's customers.
Being a bit cynical, my guess is that the recent stock price tumble will trigger every PG&E executive and board member who has stock options they can exercise to list the current or upcoming price low as the trigger point and price they will pay for those stocks.
Even worse — by gaining more control over the company via owning more voting shares, these executives and board members will continue to wreak havoc due to profit-taking for themselves rather than spending money on infrastructure and maintenance.
63
@Dean The end game for PG&E is that it will go bankrupt. In the regulated utility model, prudent costs are recovered from ratepayers with a modest profit. This model does not take into account catastrophic events like these fires. Nor are insurance companies willing to take on these risks. Preventing all possible caused of fire such a downed lines to name just one is virtually impossible.
Although I am reluctant, as a retired employee of a regulated utility, to suggest that bankruptcy might provide the opportunity for the state to take over the utility, this might be the best way for Californians to determine just how much money they want to spend to deliver electricity in a safe and reliable fashion to rural areas prone to fire hazard.
There are also alternative methods to how power is provided such as very local grids at relatively low voltage, bit that is a lengthy discussion.
28
@DeanFrankly, I think the job of protecting the power lines is too big for PG&E to foot alone. Look at how many acres there are, and the populations are shifting into the forests. PG&E can simply choose not to provide power to various communities?
Property owners (including the federal government, which owns about 60% of California's forests), PG&E, and the Department of Forestry should all be held accountable. Local governments in communities that are in forested areas need to hold town hall safety meetings, which should include not only instructions regarding evacuating, but also training regarding how to care for the land and how to spot problems? Perhaps those who choose to live in forested areas should consider living as the early pioneers did?
Lastly, we might not have a choice. Most communities in California have a lot of trees, partly because they help shield homes from the staggering heat that occurs in many areas. What really bothers me, beside the smoke that I am ingesting at the moment, is that we cannot seem to win. Rain causes the brush to grow more dense. Lack of rain turns it into kindling. However, large amounts of underbrush definitely is not needed and really should be cut down.
I really don't know. This is just sad.
8
@Dean lobbying costs and repair costs are not a zero sum game. The companies do both, from different pots of money.
1
We also need to recognize that we are going thru a period of climatic transition as the planet warms, from a wetter and cooler period that could support (and not burn) a much greater mass of vegetation on the landscape. Eventually, this "overburden" of vegetation will be replaced by a sparser, more fire resistant plant community. Unfortunately, the process of replacement involves catastrophic fires consuming vast amounts of dry, drought-stricken timber and shrubs.
Some of the risk from power lines can be reduced as more communities develop local power (wind/solar) and means to store energy. Distributed production reduces the need for massive power transmission systems.
9
@Curt. One simple expedient is to stop putting power lines on poles that can blow down. Bury them in fire prone areas like is installed in new construction. Poles are cheaper until you include the cost of these "unanticipated" events. Any thinking person knows that electricity hung on poles will make fires someday. Unanticipated? By whom? Maybe those who saved some money? Wanna bet the power poles lost in these California fires are replaced with new poles? I will even give you odds. Definition of insanity and all that. Learning can be a painful process. Let the pain begin. Buy a bib for your local lawyer so his drool will not stain his expensive suit!
4
@Curt I really like your solution!!!
1
No quarrels with anything said (and I live in forest fire country in Arizona) but there's little mention of the one overriding risk: large populations in areas prone to regular fire. The fires will occur, and a larger population makes it far more difficult to evacuate and fight the fires. We have to address the idea of how many people can live, at what density, in the urban forest interface before adequate defense becomes impossible. Unhappily, dozens of fatalities support this viewpoint: this is government's call, insurance costs are not the way to regulate population growth in these areas.
24
@Mary A sane comment among a desert of luncacy.
7
Pacific Gas and Electric, the private power supplier for most of Central and Northern California has friends in the California Legislature that are working on a bill that would shield PG&E from paying for the fires its power lines have started. The bill would also shield stockholders and other investors. This would be outrageous if adopted. There are probably hundreds of fire stated by PG&E's lack of maintenance this year alone. We here in western Nevada County had at least a dozen wildfires last year caused by sparks form PG&E power lines.
113
@Jeff
I respectfully disagree. PG&E is providing a service to those who want to live in a tender box. One alternative for PG&E is to refuse to service to people who live in the tender boxes. No lines: no fires.
Who, then, is to blame if lightning strikes?
People who live in the wooded areas need to assume the risk.
20
@Allen82 Blame the victims much? How about the eight people who die as a result of PG&E negligence in San Bruno - an un-wooded area?
PG&E does indeed provide a service - at significantly higher prices than the publicly-owned utilities.
If you don't know the issues involved, why comment?
25
@Allen82
These "who want to live in a tinder box" are working class and retirees, and "wooded areas" describes 17% of CA, pretty low on the list of states thus covered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_cover_by_state_in_the_United_States
Our utility solution has to cover some distance but it is not a stretch to ask that basic safety is covered, especially since "fire season" in the western US is pretty much year-yound.
16
Within days of the fire, Sacramento Bee reports that Cal Fire places blame on PG&E for the Butte County fire:
https://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/fires/article74496267.html
Before the smoke has cleared from around the Bay area, Cal Fire has already placed blame on PG&E for the Butte fire. However, we in Sonoma County wait for after over a year, NO Cal Fire determination of the TUBBS Fire of the Sonoma county FIRESTORM of October 2017. The People of Sonoma County demand Resolution & Closure in their lives ! JUSTICE FOR THE PEOPLE OF SONOMA COUNTY !
I call on the world of responsible media to cover this ongoing tragedy and to report on the continued lack of action on the part of Cal Fire to come forward with a public determination of cause of the Tubbs Fire of Sonoma County of October 2017.
7
@John Johnson, Photographer
Maybe they can't determine the source of the fire. What does than mean anyway, "Resolution and closure"?
2
@John Johnson, Photographer
Are they, at least, still investigating? Or have they simply abandoned you guys? I'm assuming that you need a stated cause before you can be reimbursed for your losses? What happens if they are unable to determine the cause of the fire?
2
I learned to love the beauty and dramatic landscapes of the American southwest during my time there while I was in the military many years ago. However, it was also clear that the whole region was and is a giant tinderbox waiting for a spark, wherever or whomever it came from. Maybe instead of spending a lot of effort determining the root cause, it would be better to focus more on helping people survive the inevitable wildfires by educating them on their responsibilities and safe responses before, during and after a fire. I know a lot has been done on this subject already, but it's clearly not enough yet.
24
@David Godinez you are right David. But sometimes these things happen so suddenly and quickly with little warning or time for escape. It can kind of be like tornados in your region. You can educate people all you want. We are all aware of the fire risk in our state. But if a fire starts in the middle of the night with strong dry winds, it can spread before you realize whats happening. It's such a unique phenomenon.
1
Given the conditions (persistent drought; massive bark beetle tree kills and dry vegetation loads; high winds; terrain) it is likely that if the Camp Fire had not been sparked by a PG&E fault, it was still very likely to have occurred at some point, from an errant hammer, a lightning strike, a dragging chain; a vehicle malfunction; target shooting, or any of a hundred other events.
In the absence of the listed prior conditions, a PG&E fault likely would not have triggered such an immense and fast-moving blaze.
It does seem that PG&E was partially at fault for putting the disaster into motion, but they should not have to shoulder all of the blame for this fire (unlike their San Bruno gas line disaster, which was entirely their fault).
We have created the conditions where what would otherwise have been a minor glitch or a manageable fire now leads to a full-on catastrophes.
The initial starting conditions must bear a significant amount of the blame, even if it is more comforting to blame a single entity for having "caused" the disaster.
We would be better served by taking measures to prevent the initial conditions wherever feasible, primarily by immediately reducing fuel loads, and by having better evacuation planning, rapid response teams and more fire-resistant building codes, but we also need to address the long-term root cause of climate change. There will always be errant sparks; we need to reduce the available tinder.
24
@kathleen
Many good points here, especially WRT climate change, but, although PG&E was found to be responsible in San Bruno in 2010, it should be noted that the gas line was installed in 1956, well before housing was built over it and before modern testing methods for welds had been developed.
6
@GPS Are you a PG&E employee?
The reason I ask is, the San Bruno tragedy resulted in five felony counts of failing to inspect and test its aging gas pipelines for potential defects, despite being aware that federal regulations required it. PG&E also was convicted of one count of obstructing the federal government’s investigation of the explosion.
6
@kathleen
from CNBC: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/14/overwhelming-evidence-against-pge-in-deadly-fire-says-lawyer-suing.html
"We have the neighbor who got the email concerning the sparking wires," Danko said. "We have the witnesses who saw the fire start on a transmission line. And most importantly, we have the report that PG&E was required to make by law to the CPUC, reporting an outage minutes before the witnesses saw the fire start under the transmission lines. So the evidence already is pretty overwhelming."
An electric safety incident report filed Nov. 8 by PG&E indicated that the utility's transmission line "experienced an outage" that morning. Then in the afternoon PG&E "observed by aerial patrol damage to a transmission tower" located about "one mile north-east of the town of Pulga, in the area of the Camp Fire."
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Does it matter who left the barn door open?
The world is on fire high up and flooded down low. Can you blame the ocean for rising up in protest? Can you blame the candle for shedding the light on our future? If it's not here, it's there forever more.
The root cause comes after asking why 7 times. These folks focused on one city, one named blaze, only ask why about their neck of the woods.
Policies enacted by politicians only spit at such an inferno. Can't blame them for being ineffective when the body politic is more concerned about themselves on their little acre than the planet.
There are no political boundaries to climate change, no end to the individual suffering, no end to the loss of species and habitat until humans have no habitat. Democracy is not the answer when it's built on individual rights of landed gentry. The environment needs a bill of rights that grant it the same constitutional protections as any other individual -- freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, equal protection. If corporations get such rights in the name of private profit, then ecosystems should get such rights in the name of life for all.
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@Larkspur - Did you read the article? The power company has been responsible for several fires, and if they aren't held accountable and made to change their maintenance procedures, it will continue. So, yes, it matters who left the barn door open.
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@larkspur
If only consumers would stop supporting the corporations that are so despised. Look at the hoo-ha over which megalopolis score Amazon. How much money was spent just on proposals?
Don't people understand that the glut of recyclables is a direct result of the internet driven mail order businesses? Even as I eschew on-line shopping I am thwarted more and more often by a vicious cycle: the more people shop on line, the less bricks and mortar stores stock. This is only one connection to consumer-driven climate change.
It's all well and good to scream for laws, but each of us contributes. Every time someone sits in their parked car, AC on, staring at their phone; every time someone buys a product designed to be replaced every year...or throws away 30% of the food they purchase (water, transportation, packaging all wasted) they contribute to climate change.
It is we ourselves that have done this....
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@Teddi. True, but you may or may not be aware that when PG&E started turning off the lines in high winds, it was business owners who complained that they didn't like it. PG&E immediately accommodated them by limiting the policy to turn off the lines in the wind. There isn't one culprit here. When the voters were given the offer to go solar on a large scale. we were too cheap to vote it in. Larkspur makes a good point and so do those suggesting that PG&E should be Public Utility.
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Not mentioned, or glossed over, iare a couple of salient facts about PG&E. The first is that despite various increases in the company's electrical and natural gas rates, preventative maintenance was largely neglected. There are some indications that in past years, the utility's parent holding company diverted funds billed for maintenance to senior executive bonuses.
The second is that immediately before the Camp Fire started, PG&E was in the midst of a three message PR campaign: "Our people are just dedicated employees and they are family people, just like you." "We're being proactive about doing right of way maintenance (tree and brush trimming) to cut fire risks." "We're spending a lot of money on a wildfire command center and meteorology ."
Meanwhile, they don't mention that they have power lines running through and just above trees that haven't been pruned in decades (literally) and there's a subtext in their print PR of, "Well, if your house burns down, it's really your fault for building in a wildfire prone area (which the PG&E map in the ad shows as most of California).
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It sounds like people who live in fire-prone places are pretty clueless and/or careless. It makes no sense that someone building a fence would not be more careful about sparks, that someone would toss a lit cigarette butt onto dry land, or anyone would use fuel-driven equipment during an extended drought where manual alternatives are available. PG&E has had plenty of warning over the years that their power lines must be more secure. Humans are destroying the planet and their immediate environments. And we're supposed to be the smart animals.
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@EMiller
No doubt, some people are clueless or careless; most people aren't, at least where their home and personal safety are concerned. Unfortunately, it only takes a few.
As for being smart animals, some people live near nuclear power plants that are at high risk of failure. Go figure.
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@EMiller It's not that people are clueless. We are all morbidly aware of the risks of fire in our state. What people out of CA don't realize is that the entire state is at risk. And under the right conditions, any little thing could start it. It can be one careless person, or it can be an act of God. But like tornados and hurricanes, fires are part of nature. Unfortunately climate change make it worse. And it's not that simple to bury power lines in mountainous terrain. Super expensive to install, and expensive to dig up if there's a problem to be fixed.
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@EMiller
Sometimes we have to look at our home areas to see how well we would do in a catastrophic emergency where we had to evacuate.
I live about 9-10 miles as the crow flies from Indian Point. There are emergency evacuation plans (predominantly about a nuclear accident. but which also are meant to address other events) covering a large area, one of the most densely populated in the US. There is no way that our more elaborate road systems could ever handle even half of the population deciding to flee at the same time. Most of the residents have no idea what the "'official" plan is anyway, and would not follow it if it was contrary to their instincts. Many routes do not make intuitive sense, and are also on local two lane roads) Plus no matter what direction masses of people moved, there would be bottlenecks. We have them everyday now during rush hour traffic ( rush hour is more like 3 hours now.
Agreed on the fact that we are a pathetically careless species, destroying our only home as fast as we are able.
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As long as we push development out into areas surrounded by thick, dry vegetation and have limited road infrastructure we can expect to see these horrific events occur again and again. This latest round of fires is just another one for Californians who deal with this every year.
My advise is bury power lines and don’t build or live in outlying areas. Insist on better early-warning systems with staggered alerts so people can evacuate in an organized way. In our last big fire, November 2017, we were evacuated but could not get out due to roads choked with cars all trying to escape. We simply don’t have a method in place to handle en masse exodus of traffic even in urban areas. @nyt please cover this aspect of danger to Californians.
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@RachelK
I saw a video (in the Washington Post) that reported on the Camp Fire and stated there was one road. One road. Period.
It was astonishing and heartbreaking to see the rapidity of the evacuation messages ... the time between the first one and 'out of control' was 1 hour.
I still shudder to think of the elderly with or without text messaging trying to get out with 10 minutes to spare. I say 10 minutes because that was all some had.
I think all of the foothill towns and hamlets need to be planning agressively to at least expand the ways out in case of the inevitable. More fires are certainly coming.
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A word of warning The citizens of the mountain west and southern pine areas need to know that they are living inside a bomb. The needles and wood of coniferous trees are full of volatile substances which burn far more rapidly than hardwoods. Ideally these areas should be off limits for construction.
The speed of the burn flares can be faster than a cheetah could run. The areas are in drought which further accelerates the burn speed.
The time to evacuate is years past. No motor vehicle can get you out fast enough. Even if you remove trees for hundreds of yards around and have a fire resistant home you can still be killed by the smoke.
Do not rebuild!
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@Bunbury They could also have earthquakes. You live in Florida - you might have a hurricane. I live in the Midwest - I might have (and have had) a tornado. No place is completely safe. That said, we should all take whatever precautions we can for where we live.
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@Bunbury
In Florida you have red tides due to farming and phosphate mining plus more and more frequent coastal flooding. Then there are the sinkholes that develop as more of the groundwater is removed for a thirsty population. And I don't even want to think about the pythons that people keep letting loose! Up here in New England our water mostly stays where it is supposed to.
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@Bunbury You live in Florida, where hurricanes devastate communities every year and yet you rebuild. The irony of your comment is palpable.
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Recent fires here in Los Angeles were blamed on homeless people cooking on campfires. Plenty of them here to blame so why waste the time and money looking elsewhere, what's done is done. How many fires will get started in the process of burying electrical lines anyway?
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Why would burying power lines be more likely to start a fire than any other maintenance? After Hugo took out virtually every power pole in St Croix USVI they had the perfect opportunity to bury all lines. They erected poles again that were taken down by Maria. Now that was cost effective wasn't it?
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@John Doe Work on the lines during winter. It will probably be somewhat uncomfortable for workers, but it would be safer. Perhaps hire some firefighters to work with a PG&E team to build firebreaks at the same time. I realize that any firebreak wide enough to be useful in a big fire is going to have to be a biggie, but so what? That's what bulldozers are for. Here where I live we have brush fires that can't jump as far as yours, but you can still bulldoze down to dirt and plow up some topsoil as we do, and it won't grow undergrowth back as quickly. Eventually you'd have to repeat, but if you start when it's not burning, you'll be ahead of the game.
So it's not climate change after all! Man's insistence on living in a region not meant for man is the culprit. What to do, what to do?
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@Kurt Pickard. I grew up and live ten miles from Paradise. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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@Kurt Pickard I wish it were that easy. It's not people insisting living anywhere. Those communities effected by fires have been there for over a century. In San Diego County we had one of the worst fires on record until the last year. The whole state of CA is at risk. Fires have always been part of life here. Kind of like all of OK is at risk of Tornados and FL at risk of hurricanes. But climate change is one of the things making it worse. The amount of extraordinarily destructive fires we've had over the last decade has increased largely.
@Kurt Pickard
That describes most of the Earth.
Great article. We are bombarded by sound byte explanations to all challenges faced by society. This article clearly explains how complex reality happens to be and why simplistic answers mislead our efforts to solve problems. Sadly, only nerds like me pay attention.
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Beyond the human tragedy, these fires, and the near-impossible means of preventing ignition, points directly to the failure of government to exclude development from these areas. Identical to our inability to curtail seaside residential construction, building on unstable slopes, downhill from active volcanoes, faultlines, etc. a good start would be restricting federal flood insurance, disallowing building permits where private insurance offers no coverage, and making rebuilding so economically difficult that insurers would back away. Partial solutions do exist; we just need to address the whole collection of issues with more resolve.
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The CA legislature just passed, and Brown signed, a law saying the for-profit utilities (PG&E, SCE) may pass liability costs onto their customers.
Privatize profits, socialize costs happens everywhere.
California has the most expensive electricity in the US, and it has nothing to do with a push for renewable sources.
It is because the utility exec's bonuses are based on adding capital equipment like new power plants. The utilities have been adding more and more new and unnecessary power plants long before the old power plants have reached the end of their useful lives, all to enrich a few executives. There was an eye opening investigation by the LA Times on this a year or so ago.
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How about a lack of available exits from fire? How is development allowed in places where there’s only one way in or out? As a Californian I am deeply concerned when I am told to evacuate but cannot get one block away due to choked roads full of en masse traffic. California needs better, more organized ways to communicate and implement evacuations of densely populated areas in addition to outlying rural areas.
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@RachelK
That goes back to a state government that mandates towns and cities to continually build more housing. More citizens equals more taxes to support all those beloved state programs.
I lived in Ojai for 10+ years. I sat in city council meetings listening to officials try to figure out how to add the required number of dwellings in a town that was 98% built out. Legalizing so called granny flats was always on the table. The town has one road in, one road. There's no way to expand lanes now.
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"The CA legislature just passed, and Brown signed, a law saying the for-profit utilities (PG&E, SCE) may pass liability costs onto their customers."
Counterexample #42586250 to use when a covfefean blabs to us that "The Democrats are far left."
Would they ever were. PG&E would clean up real quick.
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~"How Experts Track a Blaze to Its Origin"~
The origin of the flames is decades of fire suppression. Homo Sapiens are encroaching into areas that have naturally burned for the purposes of natural regeneration. Now it is suggested that negligence principals be applied and that someone is at "fault" that the fire started? Looking for a culprit? Blame Mother Nature.
This ranks right up there with the complaints of those living in a coastal city faced with rising water.
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Its very telling that this kind of investigation is a professional endeavor now days. On another note I would appreciate if Jerry Brown would do more than whine about Trump and blame his state's problems such as drought and wildfires on global warming. I mean - a 5th grader can do that- right?
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@Dixon Duval, You have it backwards, my man; it is Trump whining that CA doesn't know how to manage its forests when all along these fires are popping up on federal lands.
And yeah, climate change is a factor in the rise of these fires, but even a fifth grader knows that.
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@Dixon Duval
You mean like Trump is constantly assessing blame and promoting conspiracy theories?
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everyone is familiar with the descriptive phrase of something being an accident waiting to happen. that’s a description of the natural environment before the fire starts. But if it wasn’t one thing that provided a spark at a certain place and time, it would have been something else. Causation is a fickle philosophical term in such a context. Humans are naturally hell bent on finding THE cause so that they may ascribe responsibility. But from a quite valid perspective , the environment is a million or even a billion times more the cause of the fire than the one fool who the experts ascertain flicked an errant ash. Humans cannot relax until someone is to blame
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Those shiny trickles from cars are aluminum which was melted at 660C from, most likely, the engine block.
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@Njnelson
And it's still shiny. If you melt aluminum in air, you'll get aluminum oxide, which is white, not shiny metallic aluminum. This means the fire was burning with such intensity that all the oxygen was consumed. This answers the question of why people couldn't 'ride it out' by jumping in swimming pool or something.
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@JWC - wow. That's interesting and remarkable. I hope you're a teacher. Well, you are a teacher -- I just learned something. Seriously, though, this is the type of real-world example that brings science to life. Thank you.
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@JWC
No the oxygen was not all consumed...virtually impossible. The burning of large quantities of organic matter, trees, etc., results in a reducing atmosphere...think carbon monoxide and carbon particles. They would keep the aluminum shiny.
5
The so-called Camp Fire began on a day of low humidity, strong winds . . .
Strong winds is the key to identifying the starting point. The fire would not proceed into the wind. I would suggest that someone look underneath the PG&E power lines where a problem had been reported by PG&E. Although, there is a distinct possibility that PG&E personnel arriving on the scene first may have "confused" incriminating evidence.
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Sure sounds like at least part of the problem is forest management. Many areas have tried to completely stop fires, others have allowed natural fires to occur, while other areas initiate controlled burns to reduce the risk of major disasters. Harvesting lumber can be part of the problem or part of the solution. I sincerely hope critical thinking and not political rhetoric determines the right course of action in the future.
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@Crabby Hayes I grew up on a ranch in the Sierra foothills. Fire was totally on our mind all summer long. We cut fire breaks around the houses on the ranch, picked up bottles for fear of them causing fires through magnifying glass. I started a fire turning around in a field with a truck. It was like living with paper crumpled up in the fields all summer.
But it it is an absurdity to think forest management had anything to do with these fires. There was no forest on the ranch other than live oaks and white oaks and poison oak. Only up in the upper Sierra was there commercial timber 60 miles away. This is just a place that can be terribly dangerous with fires in the late summer and especially the fall Living there you always have to be on guard for fire..
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@Crabby Hayes
Once again - the fire was not in a forest but grasslands.
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All true, but political rhetoric doesn’t even begin to encompass a threat to remove federal aid to a disaster area. That, I call hate speech.
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If the T&D (transmission and distribution) systems were at fault, the most effective but expensive solution is to bury the lines, particularly in areas that are subject to continuous windstorm exposure. As climate change adds additional elements of risk, all utilities need to conduct comprehensive due diligence to determine if they really want to become the next Pacific Gas and Electric.
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@DB I worked with an electrician who'd been a utlity electrician in the Middle East. He couldn't understand why virtually all the electrical utility wires in Northern California were above ground.
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May the lost RIP. Now begins the process of looking for DEEP POCKETS to pay for the collective failures of all. If it is a fallen transmission line, that line was designed and built not with the expectations of the dry conditions after a 200 plus day drought. Had a broken line fallen under normal climatic conditions, no fire or thousands of acres burned, deaths and damages. As noted, PG & E and other electric utilities has to reevaluate service into drought dry areas.
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@Gretna Bear
I appreciate the fact that generating and providing electricity throughout such a large state is a particular challenge. I'm a California native, and have lived in many parts of the state. I happen also to have lost my home in this latest fire. However, it is more complicated than 'reevaluating service into dry areas'.
PG&E has been required for some time to maintain clear space around power transmission lines (it did not).
It has been required to use shielded wires, such that when they break (and they always will), only the tip of the wire is live, rather than the entire wire. They did not do this, either.
They are also required to use technology (which they have claimed they have in place) that will deenergize a wire as soon as it fails, such that by the time it hits the ground it is no longer live. Time and again they have demonstrated that they are not successful in implementing this technology.
All of these measures, and more, are in use in other, similar places. Colorado, for instance, shares most of California's characteristics (rural, mountainous, drought, etc) yet has had a fraction of such major fires in the past 20 years.
PG&E has a long record of profits first negligence. It enjoys all the benefits of a 'nearly' public utility, both for its investors and its employees (I know many who work there and a job there is seen as the nearest thing to winning the lottery). If ever there was an argument against private utilities, this is it.
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@Gretna Bear
I respectfully disagree. PG&E is providing a service to those who want to live in a tender box. One alternative for PG&E is to refuse service to protect the people there from their lines as a cause of the fire.
Who, then, is to blame if lightning strikes?
People who live in the wooded areas need to assume the risk.
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@dl I always appreciate getting the perspective of someone who actually lives where the story is taking place. So sorry for the loss of your home. I wish you and everyone else affected the best in your recovery.
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