When does the NYT plan to report the terms of the draft agreement? It is hard to make sense of this when we don't know what the substance is.
In the case the "deal" (agreement according to article 50 (2) Lisbon Treaty) will pass the House of Commons it should be rejected by the Council, or at least the European parliament because it misses several "populist" elements such as:
1. A wall of the height of 3 miles in-between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The bill for the wall sent to the UK.
2. Transport of all British refugees to Mallorca back to the UK on the cost of the UK.
3. Transport of all Polish physicians working in the UK to Switzerland - on the cost of the UK.
4. Controlled demolition of the Chunnel - on the cost of the UK
Leave means leave, and divorce means divorce.
Is it possible to move Canada to the Northern Sea in exchange for the island called Great Britain?
Both the UK and Britain have had their flirtation with populism and nationalism now and its going to leave long term damage for both countries and their peoples. In the end I believe that this serves as a wake up call to take our democratic values more seriously again and not be so apathetic about class and income inequality...two commonalities plagueing both countries. The over-reliance on the financial industry and 'the markets shall fix everything' mentality in both countries has hollowed out the middle class and made it vulnerable to manipulation... both foreign and domestic.
3
May is clearly an utter incompetent, incapable of leading, as well as an utter demagogue, constantly distorting facts and positions.
Not to mention someone unwilling or willfully unable to comprehend or acknowledge the potentially ruinous consequences of so-called Brexit for Britain.
An utterly incredible lack of leadership -- or really willfully bad leadership by a person who'll go down in history as the worst British PM.
4
Blustering, bullying and then running for cover when called to account for the consequences of their advocacy has been the hallmark of Brexiters since the original vote.
Exhibits A and B are Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson who, within what seemed like minutes after the vote, walked away from any responsibility for implementation.
Like Republicans in the United States, the Brexit movement has interested itself only and loud, ideological chest-thumping, with scant attention to the practical consequences of what they were screaming about.
Well, the pigeon guano is hitting the fan, and the good fellows who created this mess are nowhere to be found.
3
It is good to see politicians do their jobs and debate and argue and engage voters.
That is there job.
Voting is our responsibility.
1
Excuse me, but Mrs. May didn't want leave in the 1st place, but she took it on - as the people - who by the way have quit - Mr. Johnson, and now Mr. Raab etc...voted themselves to LEAVE - what in the world do they want now? And how dare them quit to make her look bad, and not follow-through what they masterminded in the 1st place.
There was no way for Britain to ever leave the EU in the way it was exploited during the leave campaign - all of these 'people' knew it then and know it now. But now it suits them to put it all on Mrs. May! Shameful!!!
4
Seems simple, but Theresa May should just hold a press conference saying “brexit is stupid, we should just knock this nonsense all off”. We all know that’s what she’s thinking, why not just say it?
1
Those hoping for less foreign intervention in the U.K. post-Brexit are in for a surprise. When your economy is in a shambles, you beg for scraps. Cheap UK property will be bought up by non-English persons, your beautiful towns and cities will be even more full of cut-rate Airbnb’s hoping for tourists on a budget with wads of cheap GBP to check in, and your desperate businesses will be pitching themselves (less successfully than before) to foreign cash on more onerous terms. Oh, and when you negotiate independent trade deals with India, China, Malaysia etc. they’re going to be asking for visas. A lot of visas. You’re going to have a lot more foreign “interference”, not less—and I’ll certainly be one of those brown-skinned people taking advantage of the new, discount-bin Britain.
2
Some thoughts:
1) For the first time, May gave “no Brexit” as a possibility. ‘No deal, my deal or no Brexit’ was something or other like it.
2) The ERG (the ultra-Brexit Moonbats) may try a leadership change, a vote of no confidence. Plenty of analysts saying they don’t have votes to win, but who knows these days. May will need 50% of her own party - and there are plenty who would support her as they don’t want the Mogg-types in charge. Importantly: if May wins that vote she gets a full year’s grace before any other attempt can occur.
3) The Tories are in one massive mess, but there is one thing guaranteed to unite them: Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister. An ERG member about to hand his No-Confidence letter, or a Tory planning on voting down May’s deal must know that their actions may (emphasis, ‘may’) cause that. They’re a bit scared of him. The polls are close but after eight years the Tories look very threadbare and Corbs has quite the motivated army. They will stick together to try to prevent a General Election.
1
So much of the past year’s politics in the UK about Brexit look like muddy-brained posturing, ignoring the complexity of the deep ties that have been forged between the EU and the UK over the past forty years. The impulse to isolationism—a movement predicated on ignorance and therefore irrational—is attractive to many because it offers the fools’ gold of autonomy. But by voting to leave the Bloc, Brexiteers gave up any leverage they might have had to negotiate the terms membership in it. If you leave the playing field, you don’t get to write the rules for those still playing. The EU does not need to concede its position. Theresa May is in an impossible position, and honorably persists in making it work, while back-benchers and her own backstabbing Cabinet undermine her at every step. I do not discount a certain thread of male chauvinism, too, in the nastiness with which May is treated by some. History will surely be more kind, I believe, and will deal more grimly with many of her detractors.
1
I feel sorry for Theresa May. She has been asked to square a circle. The Brexiteers are exactly analogous to the Republican opponents to the Affordable Care Act: they are full of rabid opposition to the EU, but have no constructive plan for leaving.
In fact, there is no way to leave without immense economic harm to Britain. Many hate the idea, but the nation will have to hold another referendum. There is no other choice.
1
The article misses the point of Brexit. It has always been about unfettered immigration to the UK. It is about the Polish plumber who immigrates to the UK and lowers the wages of UK plumbers. The people of the UK voted against globalization to protect their way of life. The Ireland issue is important, too, but it is not the thing the people think most about.
1
@Scott L First: No, Brexit has never been only about immigration. Second, do you find it at least a little bit ironic if the former colonial superpower now wants to protect "their way of life"?
1
Many people are calling for a second referendum on Brexit and indeed that may happen in view of the political chaos currently unfolding. However, imagine that REMAIN had won the referendum and LEAVE supporters demanded a second referendum, I wonder how that would have been received?
There was deception and misleading claims from both sides, in the run up to the referendum, and whether we agree with the result or not, do we just keep having referendums until we get the result that we want?
well, given that remaining in the EU wouldn't be economic suicide and wouldn't have resulted in the absolute chaos we now find ourselves in (not to mention that we knew what we would get by remaining, rather than the absolute bill of goods that the vote leave campaign sold the electorate), it's probably somewhat of a straw man argument.
Of course Brexit will ruin Great Britain. It isn't like Great Britain was ever independent on economic matters. The pound? What is that? Hasn't Great Britain ever survived without be forced to use the Euro?
How ever will they survive without giving payouts to Greece?
Brexit was sponsored by Putin. Another vote by the citizens is needed now that that's known!
7
02:26 GMT:
Well that was quite a day. I am now off to neck valium until I stop worrying.
6
Where's Boris Johnson, U.K.'s answer to the U.S's clown-in-chief?
Why...He's waiting in the wings to turn the U.K. into a circus just like his counterpart here in the U.S.
9
ManhattanWilliam
New York, NY1m ago
Whichever side one was on regarding BREXIT, the fact is that the vote was given to the people in a General Referendum, and the people spoke with 52% voting in favor of leaving the European Union. It seems to me that Mrs. May is right in refusing to hold another vote. It's true that issues have been raised such as the Northern Ireland border quagmire that seem, astonishingly, to have been missed as flash points prior to the vote. Nevertheless, there is something inherently anti-democratic about proposing another vote on such an issue after the dye was cast. In a fair and free society, one doesn't propose voting and voting and voting again until, finally, the outcome that some desire is reached. A vote took place in a free society and each person eligible had the chance to cast a ballot. The results were conclusive and now it seems right that the will of the people be carried through to completion. In this regard, Mrs. May is right and her position, contrary to what some say, respects rather than subverts the will of the British People.
5
Why can't people in a free society change their minds? No one can seriously think that there would be referendum after referendum. If a second referendum confirmed Brexit, now that the circumstances of leaving the EU are better understood, so be it. No one would consider another referendum.
6
That first referendum was a carnival, not a serious deliberation that accounted for all the facts.
Now the facts are on the table. That would be the time for a referendum, not before.
Or would you commit to buying a house without seeing it and merely on the description of the realtor who is poised to make money off the deal?
3
America is running like a fine watch. We Americans should feel free to offer advice to our long time friends. Let voters decide between a few different plans, when their choice fails, blame them. Serve them right.
3
Note that the pound began to rise again, later in the day, because—as the reporter surmises—the prospect for "Remain" was increasing.
That "says" that financial markets want "Remain." British polls show that Brits now are in majority for "Remain."
May herself was a "Remain" vote before she was strapped with implementing the 2016 referendum that was premised on NO UNDERSTANDING OF TECHNICALITIES which have now become starkly evident.
So, May does rhetorical contortions with respect to a moot and mis-informed referendum that the majority doesn't want honored.
The Oxford Dictionary picked the wrong word of the year ('toxic'). She should have picked 'daft'.
9
Take another vote. It will never pass a 2nd time now that voters have actuall facts.
9
@northeastsoccerm
Same can be said for Californian's Moonbeam Train to Nowhere (now predicted at yet another 11 billion dollars over estimate (joke that it was). What it is now 80 billion over estimate...and counting? I don't know whose legacy is worse, Jerry Brown's Choo Choo or Obama's Iranian Nuclear Giveaway.
As fine an example of suicide by populism as you will ever see.
Of course, Trump offers plenty of experiments that we already know the outcomes of that are equally ridiculous:
trade wars, retaliation against companies that disagree with his positions, etc.
"History repeats itself first as tragedy, then as farce." Karl Marx
If this isn't a farcical era with Trump as Master of Ceremonies, I don't know what is.
I have been reading Max Hastings new book on Vietnam. It highlights the silver lining that comes with somebody like Trump. Since he is always lying, you are always questioning what he says. Thus it would be difficult to get away with the sort of rampant and enormously consequential lying that Johnson and Nixon got away with.
6
@Al Miller
Can someone please save us from every commentator who has to turn every news story into a Trump hate fest.
2
Liars, Liars, pants on fire. 1720 - 2020, three hundred years of trading with foreign economies. The United Kingdom will be just fine.
No their isn't a "plan" that can be fashioned to stay in the EU; after, you've left. The treaty envisioned that a member economy could choose to leave. The EU countries trade with countries (notably the United States, Japan, Mexico, the Russian Federation; and China), that are not members of the EU.
Crucially note, the United Kingdom does not trade domestically or internationally exclusively in Euros. It has never retired the Sterling currency, as did France retire the Franc and Germany retired the Deutsche Mark; almost 30 years ago. And over the past nearly 30 years the Sterling has not eroded out of out of its role of sustaining the United Kingdom political economy.
If the UK were trading internally and internationally Euros; if the Bank of England were having to find an inventory of a reserve currency other than Euros; if the UK were having to establish the Sterling (or any currency) again, as a (and their) trading currency; this silly negotiation farce, might have had a shred of reality.
But the UK doesn't. It does not have to find a consortium EU Currency and member states, who will "loan" Euros to the UK, so that it might be able to trade in goods, services, or raw materials with say Russia, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Mexico or the US. Or to pay its private or public sector employees working in Britain.
Its all foolishness.
2
@roger g.The Brexit referrendum was not about to leave the British Pound.
The world is turning strange. We just celebrated the end of stupidity with WW1 and there is Trump in the USA, England opts out of Europe with false nationalistic ideologies, Brazil turned to military dictatorship again....etc,etc..
8
Isn't it pretty clear, that now that the people have had a chance to see what Brexit would involve, that if there were another referendum the people would choose to stay in the EU? So why not have another referendum? That would actually let the Conservatives off the hook. If the Conservatives do not lose power over this debacle, it will be like Trump being re-elected.
12
For those interested in how Brexit came about, and can read French , I recommend, the e-book
Une Brève histoire du Brexit Broché – 31 octobre 2018
(A short history of Brexit, Paperback, 10/31/ 2018
by Kevin O'Rourke
https://www.amazon.fr/Une-Br%C3%A8ve-histoire-du-Brexit/dp/2738146252
Kevin Hjortshøj O'Rourke, MRIA, FBA is an Irish economist and historian, who specialises in economic history and international economics. Since 2011, he has been Chichele Professor of Economic History at the University of Oxford and a Fellow of All Souls College, Oxford.
2
It suited Britain quite well when the EU was good for them.
Now they're jumping ship.
Ta Ta, Cheerio!!!!
2
Let's get to the core of this
To quote Kevin O'Rourke (Chichele Professor of Economic History, All Souls College, University of Oxford)
" After the Brexit vote, it is obvious to many that globalisation in general, and European integration in particular, can leave people behind – and that ignoring this for long enough can have severe political consequences. "
Kevin O'Rourke 07 August 2016
For the full article
https://voxeu.org/article/brexit-backlash-has-been-long-time-coming
Neo liberal economist deny this is the case. Paul Krugman comes to mind
But as Paul Volcker formulated it
"Mr. Trump “seized upon some issues that the elite had ignored,” he said. “I don’t think there’s any question about that, in kind of an erratic way, but there it is.”
He wondered how many lectures and presentations he had sat through with economists “telling us open markets are wonderful, everybody benefits from open markets.”
Eventually, Mr. Volcker said, someone in those lectures would always ask, “What about that poor manufacturer in my town?” But that concern was dismissed too easily, with talk of worker retraining or some other solution far easier said than done."
Neither the UK, nor the US , has come up with a strategy to solve "easier that the done" .
The Democrats, though, finally have someone who can address it, Sherrod Brown
Listen to him on
https://www.npr.org/2018/11/15/668380507/democratic-sen-sherrod-brown-discusses-a-potential-2020-bid
2
My understanding is, the Brexit vote was non-binding on Parliament. So why isn't the government talking about not doing Brexit? Why are they so dead set against leaving the EU regardless of the outcome??
5
Many of us living in the USA have come from former European colonies, some of which were British. We also have family, friends and contemporaries who went to post WWII Britain as sources of labour in their rehabilitation efforts. The black West Indian British and others were subjected to further decades of good ol' british racist oppression. Theresa May can say quite a bit about her part in the oppression/deportation of thousands who journeyed to England in the late 40's and following. Ms May was Home Secretary and dealing with that generation of immigrants prior to becoming PM.
British arrogance and prejudice has brought them to this stage. It's wonderful to see them joust with others with similar histories. It's no longer the creation and abuse of Plantation societies for profit and Empire building. It's about their survival, alone and with an Empire upon which the sun has been setting for a long time. Its an enjoyable spectacle for me.
9
After centuries of wars, many which Britain was part of, and often an aggressor, the Europeans got together and formed their union. I was supposed to be similar to the U.S. with the various countries acting more like states, with a common currency, and the same economic restrictions.
But not everyone liked some of the provisions like debt limits. As we saw the Greeks had to be made to change their spending and taxation to stay in the union. The conservatives in Britain do not like the rules, they have always thought they are superior to the other countries, but the young people like it. They are able to go to the various countries and work without all the restrictions that used to be.
Just like in the U.S. you can go to any state and work without having to need a visa, passport, and work authorization. Under Brexit that will not be allowed. Many people were going to England for work from countries with high unemployment, so just like here, some citizens think it is unfair, and want protectionism, in this case, they get neither.
7
@David Underwood
Yes, I was briefly in the company of a Californian visitor here last week.
He didn't get this 'freedom of movement' - believing the EU to be a sort of NAFTA of European countries. He was astonished that I could up sticks, move to, say, France, buy a house, get a job, raise a family, die and be buried there all with the most trivial formality or, change my mind, and do the same in Italy or Spain or any of the 27 member nations. We have harmonisation of many taxes (and their collection), right to healthcare anywhere or to register for any nation's healthcare system. There's also mutual recognition of qualifications and specialist certification (a Polish doctor can work in the UK with only an English test) and large scale unification of industrial and consumer protection standards.
In business, there are no borders and no customs checks. Frictionless trade.
In some way. it's more 'federal' than the US and the EU's objective is yet more federation, complete financial, legal and political integration - and, thanks, to Mr Trump, that much vaunted EU Army.
Many people. especially the young, welcome their integration into the USE. Me too.
13
What absolute tomfoolery. Can we all just admit what everyone knows - that the Leave campaign was completely full of dung, only slightly more so than this absolute joke of a "draft agreement" which contains absolutely NO details at all - and just drop this whole Brexit thing and move on? Let's either just pretend it never happened, and the Brits can be seen for the fools they've been, OR just throw them out on their ear. Goodbye. Out of the EU, no deal. Goodbye. Because frankly, no deal is exactly what they deserve.
10
"Several leading Brexit supporters have characterized the draft deal as worse than membership in the bloc they find so objectionable."
Any Brexit deal will be worse than membership in the bloc they find so objectionable.
Which is why none of the hard-line Brexiters can come up with any plan of their own.
13
With the exit of these two from Theresa May's Brexit team, America should offer to send the dynamic hidden hardworking genius duo of Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump to help out. Great Britain aka United Kingdom is rapidly moving to Masterpiece Theater.
" Two people divided by a common language
Winston Churchill on the difference between his British paternal heritage and his maternal American heritage.
3
Very funny. But not aka. "Great Britain" is geographical; "United Kingdom (of GB & NI)" is political.
3
@Edward Lindon
Really? Relax. My 1st known European ancestor was born London 1613...then came to the Va 1640...passed away 1670.
How about a trade deal? Melanoma Trump for ER ll. You can keep the Kushner duo for Charles' boys and spouses..
1
Brexit Exec Makes Exit.
6
To all the UK critics faulting May for a "bad deal", I ask, exactly what is the leverage they think they have in negotiating with the EU? Any deal must not only be approved by the UK but by every EU nation, whose attitude toward the UK's exit is not exactly warm and fuzzy. If a hard exit with no deal is the worst outcome for the UK from what I've read, what choice did May have?
15
@Mark - I agree with your points, and think the choice that she might be regretting is the one that put her in as PM with the whole Brexit mess as her big task.
10
What will historians say about the year 2016 in the West? The year liberal democracy died? Just as 1848 is the year of the worker's revolution, 2016 is the year we allowed demagogues to come in and ruin what had been a pretty decent 70 years of peace and growth. Will we survive this?
9
Maybe with one more vote, with the population now actually having information instead of lies and bafflegab. The racists will still vote leave but those sold on an oh so rosy future, that was always nonsense, will have finally seen the economic ruin in their futures.
4
@MonaUSA: 2016 was (yet another) wake-up call for Western - style capitalist democracies. For all of the good things that happened post-WW2, a lot of economic and cultural strains are evident. While the per capita GDP of many countries continue to grow, the income of many of their residents is stagnant and insecure. They also face increasing out of pocket costs for vital services such as healthcare and education. To compound their insecurity, their society is subject to global influences that they neither understand nor can control. Trump and Brexit are not abberations; they are responses to trends that have been accelerating since the fall of the Soviet Union and the rise of the Internet. At some point, countries will need to transform themselves or face an existential crisis (perhaps the end of the Soviet Union is the most recent example). I don't think that things are in place for that to happen yet, but if/when it happens, it could be quite sudden.
2
So...
> UK resolved to leave the EU – except for stuff that really matters
> UK resolved to keep Scotland in the UK – so as to bargain away stuff that really matters to Scotland, to the EU
> UK and EU united in resolve to keep Ireland dis-united – except for stuff that really matters
> City of London resolved to keep itself at the center of EU banking – which is all that really matters to it or the UK
...unless something lost in translation – think that about covers it
6
There is something quintessentially funny about the idea of pro-Brexit PM’s leaving their positions in government because of Brexit proceeding as intended.
Funny like the resurgence of nationalist fascism around Europe, the potential collapse of the European Union, and Donald Trump as President of the United States.
“All along the Watchtower, Princes kept the view...”
5
BREXIT = "We invaded their countries, taught them how to speak english, drink tea at 4 pm, eat fish and chips and play cricket - and now we detest that they dare come to live and work in England.
7
I had that conversation with a Welshman 40 years ago. He was going on about all the foreigners on the streets of Britain. I mentioned something about the chickens coming home to roost and so they should. Thought he was going to have a coronary.
3
@What's a girl to do
"We invaded their countries, taught them how to speak english, drink tea at 4 pm, eat fish and chips and play cricket - and now we detest that they dare come to live and work in England."
Er, no. The Brexiter beef is with immigration from other European Union countries NOT from our old Empire. As far as I know, cricket hasn't really caught on in Poland and Italian is still the language of Italy. Nobody in Europe eats 'fish and chips' - well not British ones. Actually, given that Brit fish and chips is often a disappointing mass of wet potato, greasy fried batter and greyish rubbery fish, it's not exactly 21st century haute cuisine here, either.
Coincidentally, the EU has outlawed the term 'fish and chips' as a sales description. By law, it's necessary to specify the type of fish sold i.e. 'cod and chips', 'plaice and chips' and unlawful to sell food described only as 'fish and chips'. This is a good example of sensible EU consumer protection - but seized on by Brexit lunatics as evidence of how 'the EU destroys our British culture'.
4
@Whats a girl to do: Immigration from some of Britain's former colonies has been an issue for several decades. It is true that some of the English towns and cities that have become magnets for such immigrant communities voted for Brexit. But immigration from Europe is a separate and relatively recent phenomenon that was accelerated by the spread of the financial crisis to poorer European countries. Many members of 'colonial' immigrant communities were born in Britain and are second or third generation descendants of the original post-WW2 immigrants. Brexit will not affect the status of these people. But it did give the (mainly English) citizens who harbor concerns over the growth of immigrant communities a means to register a protest. Most of the new European immigrants live and work in London and the more prosperous parts of England because that's where most of the jobs are. These areas voted against Brexit, because whatever concerns their residents have about changing demographics, they see their future as inextricably linked to Europe.
2
In 2019, the English will still be fighting over Brexit. There are more hurdles than one should reasonably expect between the English government mishmash and the upcoming headbutting with the EU authorities.
1
A lot of people are missing the point. Brexit is about sovereignty. As of now the British Parliament laws can be overruled by the EU. A lots of those regulations are written by bureaucrats in Brussels who are paid enormous sums of money and are answerable to no one. There is more to life than keeping multinationals and financiers happy.
4
@Reflections9
This is part of the myth that lead to this mess. We are supposedly "taking back control" over things we already had control of. We have control of Free Movement, but the UK Govt, particularly Labour, chose not to enforce it. More than half the migration to the UK comes from non EU countries which we have 100% control of.
The EU is as democratic as the UK. Both have regulations written by bureaucrats answerable to elected politicians. The working of a 28 country democracy with a President can be difficult for us to understand, unless you are used to a 52 State Democracy.
Democracies have a right to change their minds, so a another vote is good, although a General Election would be better for us than a non-binding referendum.
9
@Michael
I respectable disagree. In the past ten years we have had the EU strong arm Greece we have had France and Germany accept refugees on large numbers and get miffed when Hungary its government and people say no. It has led to breakaway groups in Spain and a general rise in Extreme Right Wing actors. All because the technocrats in Brussels live in a bubble and are tone deaf.
4
A lot of people are missing the point. Brexit is about sovereignty. As of now the British Parliament laws can be overruled by the EU. A lots of those regulations are written by bureaucrats in Brussels who are paid enormous sums of money and are answerable to no one. There is more to life than keeping multinationals and financiers happy
1
@Reflections9
"Brexit is about sovereignty." No, it isn't. That was the fabulous lie told to the gullible and uninformed British public.
"British Parliament laws can be overruled by the EU." Every member of every union trades strict autonomy for the magnifying power, influence and opportunity bestowed through cooperation. If you don't believe in restricting individual autonomy for the sake of communal goals, try driving down the street the wrong way or appropriating other people's property. See how far "absolute freedom" takes you.
"A lots of those regulations are written by bureaucrats in Brussels". Despite the now obligatory sneer that inhabits the word "bureaucrat", these people are merely EU employees doing jobs they are paid to do. Which brings us to...
"... who are paid enormous sums of money and are answerable to no one." Well, they're answerable to their bosses, aren't they? Like any employees. If you mean they're not elected, well so what? Police officers and soldiers are unelected, but that doesn't make them fundamentally anti-democratic because they operate within broad democratic frameworks and institutions.
This all goes to show that the Brexit arguments can only get off the ground if you simplify to the point of stupidity (so that honest debate is no longer possible) and exclude all understanding of history, politics and international relations. The founding tenet of the Brexit religion is complete ignorance and utter disregard for reality.
7
@Reflections9
British Parliament laws can be overruled by the EU.
Propaganda...
The EU rarely passes laws. Regulations come in the form of 'Directives' - these are incorporated into the body of law in individual member states by the individual lawmaking assemblies. Thus these are British laws, not Brussels ones. The interpretation and implementation of directives is in the hands of each member state. Directives are indeed *drafted* by Brussels bureaucrats (almost all earning unremarkable salaries) but most of them relate to commercial, industrial (OHSHA like) and retailing standards drawn up by expert groups deriving from all member states. Since 2015, the European Parliament has acquired veto powers over Directives.
You forgot the sacred principle of 'subsidiarity' whereby the EU NEVER over-rides *existing* laws of member nations - states are only prevented from passing new laws when they conflict with *existing* EU ones. This happened when the British Parliament was stopped from allowing the UK construction industry generally to benefit from VAT (Sales Tax) relief on buildings insulation materials designated for use in homes occupied by the elderly and infirm - a mean spirited, greedy corporate scam which the EU was right to call out. It infuriated UK politicians who were to have pocketed the lobbying fees.
Nonsense about EU laws came from the poison pens of Boris Johnson et al. He once peddled lies as an over paid Brussels correspondent of a R/wing Brit newspaper.
2
Well put and thank you. Good luck with Reflections though. He probably voted Trump.
1
It all seemed so easy and gratifying when 52% voted for Brexit. Now it became obvious that it is all but impossible to craft a exit strategy that is an improvement over continued membership in the European union. At the least, another referendum is called for now that the difficulties of Brexit are better understood and the Brits have an understanding of what they are up against. Short of a "hard" Brexit, which would be a relatively clean, but dangerous, the Brits should reconsider the whole idea and just slink back into the European union and hope that they have not burned too many bridges in the process.
6
Poor Mrs. May. Trying to bridge the gaps between the myriad interests at play as the UK tries to withdraw from the EU would daunt King Solomon. How no one could foresee the issue that the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland would cause escapes me, and it is such a sensitive matter for obvious historic reasons that I, for one, don't see how the autonomy of the UK can be maintained while disallowing for a border between a constituent country of the EU and a territory that is outside it. Having the Republic of Ireland remain in the EU and it's regulations while Northern Ireland (and by extension the whole of the UK) is outside it's jurisdiction simply cannot be reconciled. Isn't that clear to everyone? The issue CANNOT BE RECONCILED. So either Ireland's status is changed and the north integrates into the rest OR some sort of checkpoint must be established to protect the integrity of the constituent parts. What else can be done?
10
No one foresaw it because no one bothered to think through any of it, and because the political class hold ordinary people in contempt. These are the twin poles of British culture: disdain for knowledge and expertise, and strongly entrenched class hierarchy.
5
@Edward Lindon
A remarkably good summary.
You're a Brit, I assume?
The UK never had a chance with anything approaching a reasonable Brexit. It starts with the borderless relationship between Ireland and Northern Ireland. It ends with a more expensive Customs regime that will affect British goods trade with the Continent. Then there is the matter of the services sectors that make up most of the UK economy. These sectors, which have prospered on the Continent, now face an uncertain future of doing business there.It was never a great marriage, but the terms of the divorce will be a lot more painful.
6
"She added that the deal “delivers in ways that many said could simply not be done.”"
There is truth to May's comment. Against all odds, her proposed deal establishes a sense of what is possible. The referendum was all about a romantic notion of restoring Britain to some semblance of former imperial autonomy. Since there were no details on offer, everyone was free to project into the Brexit dream her own favorite fantasy of national glory reclaimed.
So now we have a cold, wet dose of reality. Reality is, first, that the EU holds the negotiating leverage. Reality is, second, that the EU is under populist attack on multiple fronts and cannot afford to make withdrawal appear simple and fun. Reality is, third, that it is easier to make an omelette than to unscramble it afterwards, in this case 40 years later. Reality is, fourth, that there is no satisfactory way to retain a minimal Irish border between north and south without either just staying in the EU or indefinitely and awkwardly mimicking the EU arrangements in a side agreement.
That is the sober message May has delivered. But, wait, there is hope. After all, Brexit is a totally self-inflicted injury; Britain can always reassess and change its mind. That is what the second referendum impulse is about. And, if all else fails, the fall of the pound and resultant global currency speculations will offer a convenient scapegoat -- just blame it all on George Soros. Everyone else is doing it. Why not the Brits too?
6
Brexit is foolish, but if you're going to do it, exit. Period. And if you're not, stay in. Europe should not budge on this.
5
I once attended a conference where Lord Kerr (Scottish peer) who drafted Article 50 (withdrawal provision) said the reason he drafted it was because there might come a time when an EU member state needed to be ejected from the EU because it became dysfunctional in some manner. He expressed great surprise that we the UK would as a member state pull the trigger ourselves. My own comment is look how dysfunctional we have become, how divided a nation we are when we let politicians lead us down a rabbit holes with no accountability.
9
@Nora
I don't think you were paying proper attention to Lord Kerr.
There is NO mechanism whereby a member - dysfunctional or otherwise - can be 'ejected' from the EU. None.
Art. 50 is the process by which a country through its 'normal constitutional processes [1]' formally indicates its wish to leave the Union. Nothing more. Art 50 also lays out the steps, and the timetable, to do this.
The nearest to what you are describing is Article 49 through which the 'dysfunctional country' suffers a series of graded sanctions, e.g. loss of voting rights in lawmaking process, in the hope of correction. Poland is the only country ever made subject to Art.49 as a result of its blatant, Trumpian, attempt to manipulate the impartiality of its judiciary.
[1]. This is an interesting point: There's clear evidence of large scale electoral fraud in the 2016 referendum. This is a matter of established, legally proven, fact - not speculation. This finding is independent of any Russia involvement (altho the two are likely connected). Technically, this voids the referendum and therefore the legality of Art 50. Theresa May, who appears to have acted to suppress the police investigation of the fraud, has also fallen back on an arcane and convoluted legal technicality to avoid the invalidation of Art.50
1
Can someone please call for a vote of no confidence and and begin the path of a no brexit future. This is never going to end well... this is never going to end. PM May needs to go before she dooms us all.
9
A new Brexit vote would solve it, the UK would be voted back into the EU.
4
Conservatives everywhere, bless their stony little hearts, seem better at creating messes than at fixing them.
15
The sun set on the British Empire 75 years ago. Is the moon also about to go dark over the U.K.?
Nativism always costs a lot more than most of the "natives" are capable of understanding.
7
@Been There
MEGA, MEGA... make England great again!
Oh dear. Don't you get it? Idiots over here claim it wasn't a sunset, just a sort of temporary eclipse. 'Empire 2.0' is the buzzword on the lips of every frothing, mouth breathing er, mouth. You yanks had better watch out! It's 1812 again and we're not just settling for burning the White House and most of downtown DC this time.
You may concerned to hear that these guys expect some sort of equal partnership with you - 51st state, guns, pickups, trailer parks.. that sort of thing.
Telling them that the best is likely to be something like Puerto Rico's unwanted younger brother won't wash. Don't we know who they are?
Britain will pay a big fine for getting out of Brexit and they deserve to loose it I read in other stories. When you sign up for this you need to stick with it.
1
Britain needs to dump May and hold a new referendum. Brexit is complete idiocy -- and the Brits are starting to realize it.
7
It's not May's fault: she's pretty much a mere functionary in all this. The problem is the regressive Conservative Party.
2
There is one bright spot when Brexit happens and British economy nose drives.. the stupid politicians responsible for this cannot run across the channel.. they will be stuck in England.
7
As the fate of Northern Ireland (3% of the UKs population) is a snag in the negotiations, here are the choices as I see them, in no particular order with regard to chance of acceptance:
1) cut the hand to save the leg: allow the Republic of Ireland to annex NI, selling out the unionists
2) Sell out the nationalists and set up full customs between NI and Ireland.
3) Create a free trade zone in NI.
4) Negotiate double citizenship for all NI citizens who want it.
I agree, I cannot see any sensible way to implement a semi-porous border that allows free flow of trade and goods between NI and Ireland post-brexit, without also requiring customs between NI and the rest of the UK. At worst this would leave NI in that dreaded "worst of all worlds" situation - without access to the EU and with open borders. At best it would leave NI citizens having special status (as effectively UK and EU citizens) relative to other UK citizens. But trade would still be a hassle as there is no way you could drop customs altogether and avoid rampant smuggling.
3
@northern exposure
Obviously you are not familiar with Irland/Northern Island issues.
NI people have already both passports, if they wanted it.
Not sure what would happen if Ireland would "annex Northern Ireland but it wouldn't be pretty.
If nothing else, this issue might be the one which will keep the UK in the EU.
1
As I have often wondered, why the referendum in the first place? What was Prime Minister Cameron thinking of? Was it that with his Conservatives hopelessly divided even then over Europe, he could go to the people directly and circumvent his own party? If so he completely misread the country when faced with a simple 'leave or remain' vote. The relationship between Europe and the UK was never so simple and I think Cameron bears the responsibility for the worst political decision in England since Chamberlain in 1938. Now the UK over the past two years has tried to square the circle. Good luck with that. Simply put, to distill it all to its basic two points, the British must decide what is the most important - unfettered access to the largest market in the world and the rules it must follow in accord with that, or control over its own borders and with it the control over who from Europe can reside there. Perhaps that should have been the question of that first referendum - or maybe, the next one.
3
Cameron allowed the referendum due political weakness in his party (who have always been divided on the EU). For short term power he made an agreement for a referendum. In the process he sold out his country and ultimately also (predictively) lost his power.
3
We wonder where "call me Dave went". Another of the famous disappearing acts we've experienced by those whose hands dipped into the Brexit till and came out with nothing. Not one penny.
What was he thinking? He was not. It has always been a Tory spat, except now it's infected the nation and given the Barmy Army of extremists, credence and respectability.
4
"British Government in Crisis," US Government in Crisis, World Order in Crisis...
Just as Putin and his gang hoped--actually, his tampering, covert influence, and subversion has worked way way better than in his wildest dreams.
6
The problem may be that May is boxed in politically by her own Conservative Party and Corbyn, the Labor Party Leader, so she can't acknowledge what everyone knows is the elephant in the room: Brexit was a horrible mistake, a protest against change and diversity that has become a nightmarish reality.
My guess is that, at bottom, nobody anticipated or wanted this. There should be a revote, and the UK should remain in the EU. All of them -- May, Corbyn, the Conservative Party -- should admit the misfire and schedule a do-over.
6
Someone please politely advise Ms. McVey that there is no free trade. There never has been any free trade. With luck, we might see fair trade.
2
Why be polite? She's the instrument of poverty and destitution for 14 million citizens. Politeness does not come close to the reparations she is required to make.
1
Brexit seems to possess both socioeconomic and sociocultural complexity and implications that the typical citizen might be unable to comprehend or fully appreciate. In fact, the idea that a binding up or down referendum on a topic like Brexit seems crazy. From where I sit, the British public made a largely uninformed, emotional choice that might have been helped along by illegal domestic and foreign activities. If this is true then the legality of Brexit should have been at issue the moment irregularities were identified. Perhaps even more importantly did this referendum truly represent a fully informed public decision? Well, if the public was fed a consistent stream of lies and misinformation, I think not! Whatever...I recognize that the Article 50 process will continue regardless of the concerns anyone might have about Brexit legitimacy and that's unfortunate.
3
Despite the nativistic underpinnings of Brexit and the trumpish bluster which attended its birth, the civility of the letters of resignation suggest civilization has not yet fallen in the kingdom, whatever the crumbling of social norms on this side of the Atlantic.
And in comparison to the grunts and oaths from our administration, the letters were refreshingly literate
1
Perhaps Ms. May's game plan all along was to negotiate for the best deal possible, knowing that it is bad for the U.K., and then call for a 2nd referendum on Brexit. When people voted for Brexit in the first place, it was an emotional outburst, with little knowledge of the consequences. The deal makes the consequences clear; they're ugly. So now the citizens should get to decide again with eyes wide open.
7
By now it is abundantly clear that the best negotiation would be no negotiation and canceling the Brexit.
If this fiasco continues much longer, Scotland will again vote on leaving the United Kingdom--and this time it would pass. Would Northern Ireland and Wales stay in? (At least if Wales leaves, the "Prince of Wales" could become the "King of Wales" and finally get away from mommy.)
8
Sorry, no sympathy. You took the bait. You drank the right wing Kool-Aid. Now enjoy your upcoming Third World status. No more internships for the youngin's in Paris and Milan. No more of that nice cheese from France unless you want to really, really pay for it.
Fools who fall for demagogues and right wing blowhards get what they deserve.
Just like here.
12
Where are the idiots who pushed this idea , Farage and Johnson?
They made the mess, and have left a woman to clean it up. Nice!
10
And our POTUS is a negative force wherever he goes and whenever he speaks. The fascist dictators live the chaos.
1
Maybe. Cambridge Analytica and Facebook can help. What a mess,
5
This terrible deal might actually go through simply due to self interest in the Brexit camp. If they bring down May they will have to call either a general election or a second referendum. Both of which they might lose.
For those on the Tory right, Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister is a nightmare. if the country votes remain in a second vote, it may well be by a thin margin, meaning more chaos.
This is properly the last time the conservative party in its present form will be in power. The leave and remain camp have two different views on the UK's place in the world.
I just wish they would not use the country to fight among themselves. They’re putting their own careers before the national interest
8
Corbyn’s pretty much a nightmare for some of us on the American left, too.
A People's Vote would not yield such a tight margin. Recent polling indicates that in Brexit Leave constituencies the mood has altered and people have changed their minds. One does not halt democratic expression because we are scared about how the enemy would react. The job of democratic institutions is to ensure the electorate can vote. That's their job. May must make this happen.
2
Apparently nationalists and racist aren't that good at self rule. Who could have predicted that?
5
It was astounding to hear Mrs. May refuse to step down!
She seems incapable of changing with the will of the people.
Her inflexibility will inevitably lead to her dismal downfall.
That scenario sounds like the vile situation we find ourselves here in our country.
2
"the United Kingdom would remain in a customs union with the European Union until future trade plans that negate the need for border checks are worked out." I guess that means until the majority in NI vote to leave the UK and rejoin the rest of Ireland. Demographically, that's not too far in the future.
5
I wish they could push the pause button and hold a second referendum, now that so much more is known about the details and likely economic and other impacts of any form of Brexit.
Does anybody think that might be possible?
4
Perhaps Prime Minister May could have handled this better. But let's not forget the leaders of the Brexit movement, chief among them Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson, as well as the entire UKIP with its xenophobic rhetoric. And recall former Prime Minister Cameron used this referendum as a gambit in his reelection bid while Jeremy Corbyn hardly argued for the Remain side, if at all.
Putting the sole blame on Ms May is unfair and it falls into the trope of blaming a woman for the collective failings of men that preceded her.
16
May is reasonably secure because the same is true of her as is true of the deal she has negotiated with the EU (which is not a draft btw, there is no way the EU are going alter it as Merkel and others pointed out today).
What is the alternative?
Conservative MP's aren't going to embark on a leadership lottery which could involve their Neanderthal membership and land them with someone like the buffoon Johnson as leader rather as the Labour party got landed with the buffoon Corbyn.
As to the deal itself, yes it leaves Britain in a worse situation than now but it's an exercise in damage limitation as May attempts to square the circle of honoring the referendum result without shooting themselves in the foot over the economy. This is the best they are going to get from the EU so it's this or face the economic disaster of a crash out.
2
Europe slowly is meandering its way to pre-world war 2 situation. Brexit, Hungary hates refugees, Austria is leaning right wing, Germany has too many refugees, Greece bankrupt, Italy has debt crisis, Andalusia wants to be independent and list goes on!
2
Brexit was a stupid idea to begin with. It is not Theresa May's fault that they can't come to an agreement on how to proceed it's was a lousy idea from the start. Time for a redo.
6
Theresa May deserves a Nobel Peace prize. She is engaged in carrying out a huge and dirty job not of her making or resulting from her wishes, ordered by a populace ignorant of the effects of their demands, abetted by undependable politicians who selfishly sought only personal gains of political ambition (BoJo et al) and who quit as things have gotten ever-tougher. Bless you Theresa May even if your own countrymen can't say it.
10
Absolutely right. The lady is formidable. Her strength, fortitude, resilience and dedication are exemplary qualities.
Unfortunately, she is a lioness being assailed by rodents, and their bites could yet be fatal.
A more principled and honourable politician would be hard to find.
6
The headline is misleading. Dominic Raab was Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. He did not, however, play much of a role in the negotiations. The lead negotiator was Ollie Robbins, a senior civil servant.
3
i have the solution to each and every problem vexing the united kingdom! good people, turn off your brains and listen to me:
you must build a wall! yes. all together now: build that wall, build that wall, build that wall...
(and, if that doesn't work, try this one: lock her up!)
4
The Brits were had by Nigel & Boris. Very Trumpian.
4
It’s the glass cliff. Women get the top jobs just in time to clean up serious messes like Brexit. Ms. May faces an epic mess. She’ll do her best to get through it. Then she’ll shoulder the blame for everybody’s dissatisfaction while the Boris Johnson types smugly take the credit.
5
Obviously, there's a lot more at stake here than the political fortunes of Therasa May, but now this existential threat (once upon a simpler time so whimsically dubbed Brexit) has actually come a calling, the British appear to lost all pleasure in the absurd.
“One Conservative lawmaker, Julian Lewis, described her deal with Europe as “a ‘Hotel California’ Brexit deal which ensures that we can never truly leave the E.U.””
- It is funny how the truth can be parked right in front of your nose and yet we continue on as if it weren’t inconveniently even there.
3
As an Irish person this has been quite an education for me, as I would never had said that the English were so ignorant of their own history and NI, not to mention the Republic of Ireland whom some in parliament don’t even recognize as a sovereign country!
My advice to Mrs. May is ask your people to vote again. Maybe your younger generations will actually move off the couches and go vote this time. Otherwise your nation is in for a hell of a ride in the coming years.
6
Yes, the UK government is in turmoil at the moment. The Prime minister is trying to deliver what the electorate decided. There is heated debate, resignations, party infighting and a divided country.....yep all this mess and believe or not I would rather live with this democracy than be anywhere near the Trump House! ......let’s hope that one day, democracy can return to the US !
5
@Ivor Kealy
Sir with all due respect, and I'm a great admirer of the British, democracy has not left the US just because we have a buffoon as president.
5
...or left England because 51% of voters briefly allowed themselves to be duped by a pack of liars, greedheads, and Klansmen, for that matter.
2
i hope uk government and the eu leadership have an exit strategy planned when the lines of trucks blocking the roads stretch from behind london to dover and past paris to calais. When no tomatoes are available, no sugar is coming in and no banker knows if they can transfer to frankfurt without hefty fines... the brits might harken back to wartime ethos but with no empire where do the goods come from? ahhhh, now i remember, there's an emperor in the making across the pond!
4
Referendum and elections have consequences.
First Britains must complete their Brexit, then they can call another referendum, and if the outcome is a comeback the EU will decide if they deserve to.
6
With so much fraud and dishonesty prior to the 2016 referendum now apparent, it would seem that a second is in order.
However, few seem to demand it, and I believe Corbyn rejects it. Why?
It should be obvious by now that disaster looms.
I dare say that Europe may not even want us back!
3
Don't Brexit, cancel it, cancel it and take time to think things through. Because of the times we are in we all need to think things through carefully and make sure we aren't being lead down a bad path. Just my humble opinion.
2
I am hoping there is a lesson here for the US. Country people who do not see many migrants voted for Brexit. Londenes and city dwellers who are comfortable with a unified Europe and immigration from Poland etc., embraced globalization and EU membership. Is this not the same thing happening in the US? Lower educated white males fear immigrants, fear trade and are ardent Trump supporters? The city and from this election even suburban dwellers are against everything Trump stands for. Withdrawing from global trade agreements sounds very nationalistic, but it will have disastrous consequences. Unfortunately the most impact is going to be on lower educated Americans and Britishers, not the college educated city and suburban dwellers.
4
Theresa May, can’t you realize that a second referendum is needed.
Much new information has become available. Give the British people a second chance on something of this enormity!
4
These pro-Brexit politicians are unable to negotiate a deal that matches their insane promises before the referendum. May should either resign and let them own this disaster or should say "screw it" and stay in.
3
The politicians in May's coalition who are agitating for a leadership fight are not thinking clearly. They do not have time for a leadership fight, which would need to be followed by a new negotiation period with the EU, and any draft agreement would then need to be shepherded through the British Parliament and the EU assembly.
Full approval is required in a few months time. There is no time for a third option. It's either the current deal or a completely hard Brexit this spring. With those as their choices, May's deal is clearly the better of the two.
2
The Conservative Party's 1922 Committee Chairman could get the necessary 48 separate letters to ask for a leadership vote within the party. Theresa May is only holding onto power with the help of the pro-Brexit Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) of Northern Ireland. If the DUP ditches her, then I wonder if Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, the Labour Party, could call for a vote of no confidence, if May does not command the majority of seats in the 650 seat UK House of Commons? She is embattled from all sides and may not survive this crisis.
2
This is what collapse of a country looks like when falsehood and spite for others take root in its democracy.
19
Seems like the British have put themselves in a lose-lose position. Leadership is now moving toward participating in a circular firing squad.
4
To make Brexit work it can only be Brexit-lite. Complete divorce, such as what the original Brexiteers pitched in their distorted characterizations of the EU's "tyranny" is entirely unworkable. Managing customs at the Irish border is perhaps the best example of what's necessary and among the reasons with trade and supply chain management being why May's deal is so complicated. The rationale for Brexit was mostly lies and distortions, concerning trade and the "inconvenience" of freely moving people seeking employment. None of it more than hassles that go with every complicated relationship. If you poll Brits under 40 you find that the great majority are for staying in the EU. Many expats in Holland and Germany are earning handsome incomes, often in marketing and advertising and financial services which are top flight examples of British expertise and all will be taking a terrible hit should Brexit go forward without a deal. Brexit is very much like Trumpism, wrong headed any way you look at it. If May's deal fails, there are many who will call for a new plebiscite. A losing idea that deserves to die, sooner than later for all concerned, whether they know it or not.
7
Utter nonsense! The Brits voted; it's done.
Your problem is with "democracy." Uninformed people voted, "Yes," to the wrong thing; now, you and others, want to countermand that "vote" by rational thought.
Sorry! That's not how it works. (Similarly, Americans elected Trump; now, in large numbers, they regret it. Sorry, it's too late: there was an election. Wait your turn.)
What you need to accept is that democracy often doesn't work; therefore, is probably not the best way forward. "The people" should not be allowed to make decisions they are not "qualified," by education or experience, to make.
Of course, you don't agree with that. You prefer "open" elections that contravene the public will.
2
The Brits have zero leverage.
There is no good deal to be had
12
Why the Brits and the Times are in such deep denial about the obvious solution - a new Brexit vote - continues to puzzle. Clearly all 'cure' options on the table are far worse than the 'disease' in question.
The referendum was clearly a huge mistake, voters were badly mislead, uninformed, and likely manipulated foreign meddlers.
One more vote and all this whinging will be over, and the UK can focus on solving its real problems rather than this own-goal stupidity.
6
And of course Ms. May cluelessly sought comfort in a phone call to Trump, who was typically rude and dismissive.
The thought she could possibly believe that America would somehow come to her rescue trade-wise under its currently leadership shows how tone-deaf she is to the reality that is Donald Trump. In business dealings, which is all Trump knows, his first instinct is to kick you in the face when you're down, then ask you what's in it for him to help you. In the end, he of course never helps anyone but himself.
Think of the Peanuts comic where Charlie Brown (May) goes to kick the football, and Lucy (Trump) for the hundredth time whisks it away at the last second.
8
It’s quite difficult for most sane adults to deal with situations in which doing what you should be doing is taken as an excuse to abuse you.
The dumping on PM May and Pres. Trump by the "intelligentsia" fails to mention one of the primary reasons for the Brexit swell in the first place: control over its borders. When the Brexit referendum occurred there was out-of-control migration of people, primarily (but not only) from war-ravaged areas in the middle east, into the EU.
The EU populace has paid, and continues to pay, the price of this malfeasance by its elected "leaders" in ghettos that won't integrate into the countries they are in and increased violence and crime (although not generally reported by the mainstream press but is easily seen on the Internet), to name only some of the problems. Not surprisingly, the EU is now in the throes of the same sentiment within its own core countries.
If we (in the USA) can get our own borders under control under, partly. Trump's ideas (many, but certainly not all, very good) it will benefit us far into the future and preserve our nation as a place that legitimate asylum-seekers and legal immigrants can come to for generations, regardless of whose ideology is the flavor of the day.
The same malfeasance by the liberal "cognoscenti", that is, the allowing of unfettered illegal migration into the USA as well as their blind adherence to the mantra of "sanctuary" areas will produce an ugly backlash in this country (already underway) and more 2016-like elections.
1
This is simple nonsense, painted over with the usual adjectives, half-truths, and outright lies.
For openers, it’s just silly to say that anybody in this country or England suffers from uncontrolled “migration,” particularly when such a silly claim is “backed up,” with what you can “easily see,” on the Internet.
The fact that I can easily see Vril-powered flying saucers on the Internet doesn’t make “Iron Sky,” a documentary, for crying out loud.
6
@LWK The internet, source of all wisdom. I also have a bridge to sell you.
Give me Europe for safety any day over the USA. 55,000 deaths by gunfire, anyone? anyone?
3
The Brits were snookered into voting for Brexit in much the same way as Americans were snookered into voting for Donald Trump. And by the same people and same methods.
18
Somehow I can’t help thinking about a flippant slightly obscure expression, I believe it goes something like: people deserve The politicians that they elect.
The coal miners got (POTUS Tump) their cheap shot leader in office… and maybe Similarly, the rebel rousing caused, what were a usually sensible European populist , to vote for Brexit solution, out of fear and loathing
I blindly thought people liked Ronald Regan and some other notorious politicians were baddies, now I could almost welcome them back! Reminiscing feels good for the soul, that’s why as I go into the wild blue yonder, i’m not gonna worry too much about the world exploding, because it will just melt and storm down, like some asteroid sandbox of a Martian planet, and probably be orbiting out there in the solar system until the sun eventually explodes, long after me and my Nonexistent future ex wife and the children that we may have spawned, turned back into the primordial goop/dust that we came from
What did Britain expect? If you want to keep your cake - and eat it at the same time, there is bound to be a painful awakening to reality.
The folly of BREXIT is becoming clearer by the day and I can only hope that many Europeans are watching. Just like with Trump´s election "protest voting" for seemingly easy and quick solutions is not the answer to complex challenges in a complex world. Will people FINALLY understand NOT to follow the bullying populist who promises everything?
I have to fight hard not to let "Schadenfreude" get the better of me. And I now hope that a 2nd referendum may become more likely. I for one will happily welcome Britain back into the family.
4
Brexit and Trump, two peas in the same pod. Chaos candidates both. Spur of the moment purchases, resulting in massive buyer's remorse.
5
The only reason that the Brexit vote happened at all is because when Mr Cameron was Prime Minister, coming up to the election, UKIP (UK independence party) were looking like a serious threat to the Conservative majority. Mr Cameron as an enticement to voters, decided to allow a referendum, never considering that Brexit was a serious possibility. However, that is exactly what happened. So, we are where we are and the unfortunate Mrs May is stuck with "the will of the people" and between a political rock and a hard place. The EU are determined to make Brexit painful and difficult as an warning to any others (Poland etc) against leaving the EU. Meanwhile, there is a UK political power struggle and nobody has a clue what will happen next. Exciting, isn't it?
2
Thank David Cameron for proving the law of unintended consequences (for everyone but him).
1
Plenty of time for extended negotiations still exists.
How about dissolving the U.K.? Form two or more smaller countries, some applying for E.U. membership and others electing to stay out. The existing U.K. can have a vote. Stay in the E.U., hard Brexit or dissolution into pro and anti-E.U. nation and city-states.
Already there are various small-population members: Malta, Cyprus, Luxembourg and others.
Throw something on the wall that sticks other than what's sticking now.
1
You know, the British people voted to leave the EU. It's yet another stark reminder that elections have consequences. The people of Britain may have been taken in by con artists. And they may forget that Mrs. May was opposed to leaving the EU and campaigned against it. But she has dutifully tried to uphold the will of the people and get the best deal possible. I give her high marks for political integrity and responsiveness.
17
Seems to me a proper issue to be decided by popular referendum is which actor should play the next James Bond or whether or not to call Prince Harry's new bridge 'princess'. NOT whether to remain in or opt out of the European Union. I have yet to figure out what this is really about. It all seems awfully murky. And that's not good.
4
@Cody - I so wanted Idris Elba for the next Bond. Now that he's off the table, maybe it's time for Bond to retire. He is a hero of globalism, after all. He's too big a character to remain isolated in Little England.
And anyways, Bond is a Scot. Maybe he doesn't even want to stay in a Brexited UK. Maybe someone should ask him. If there ever is another Bond movie at all.
4
I was pleased that the Times published Vara’s letter, as its combo of aggressive ignorance, phony flag-waving, and plain stupidity not only nicely illustrated the crossovers to Trumpism, but underlined just how the UK got itself into this pointless swirl.
4
Only fools and tyrants are for "free" trade. There are no "free" lunches. Fair trade not free trade. Brexit will be the best thing that ever happened to the British people. The only people is doesn't favor are the elites.
1
Whatever I may think about it: Mrs May is in a very difficult position, with a disparate cabinet composed of those with different views and only having a majority in Parliament because of support from the DUP (Ulster Unionists), who have their own agenda and require "Political enticements". I don't know if Mrs May will survive this (politically).
For myself: I hope we crash out of the EU, without paying them an "exit fee", since trade is necessary with France, Germany and GB, so I am sure resolutions would be found quickly. This is more of a cliffhanger than Indiana Jones, better buy some popcorn.
1
No concern shown by the British parliament for the complete shutdown of democracy in Northern Ireland. Their Assembly has collapsed and no meetings held. While the Scottish government will have a vote, no such thing for Northern Ireland. Yet it is Northern Ireland which will be the border with the EU.
6
It looks from here as if the entire UK is being held hostage to the Northern Ireland border demands and the DUP propping up May's support in Parliament.
The UK was always going to be the loser in the negotiations with the EU, but the issues of Northern Ireland truly hamstrung May.
2
The Brits and the EU are caught in the same bind that a divorcing couple with small kids and a big mortgage face. They've decided they can't stand to live together anymore, but they can't pay their bills or raise their kids without each other. Wouldn't it have been better for all if like Norway, they had never tied the knot, but had instead agreed to work together for everyone's benefit? Feelings are so strong now that the Brits are loathe to accept a similar relationship for their country, so they face a future of poverty with a passel of unruly children on the Isle of Eire and in Scotland who just wish their parents could get along.
1
The Irish are not children. That is racist nonsense. Ireland is a country that was once colonized by the English. The free adult Ireland of today is happily in the EU and not planning to leave it at all.
4
Reminds me of the "Repeal Obamacare!" movement all Republicans signed on to. It got them elected and re-elected because Americans didn't understand what "Obamacare" really was (not "Government takeover of healthcare! Death panels! Socialism!") and what it did that was good for them (covering pre-existing conditions without higher premiums). Then they couldn't come up with a better plan to cover more people with equal benefits at lower cost. Sounds like the British public got snookered by the Brexit movement leaders too.
9
What the UK ( and the watching world ) wanted was a deal.
What Theresa May brought back was the US version of a ‘continuing resolution’.
May is coming across as a completely incompetent leader. Much of the Brexit campaign was about immigrants. According to the BBC, the draft plan says very little about illegal immigrants. And immigrants from with the EU? They get to stay. And this comes out 4 months before the deadline.
My point is that con man Boris and the Tories got all of the UK excited about dumping people outside their borders, but May has hardly addressed the issue.
Oh and by the way, UK remains in the customs union as a "backstop" for Northern Ireland.
Not sure which is worse....incompetence on their side or the petulant 5 year old on our side.
2
Serious question: why not hold another referendum to “Bremain”? The E.U. holds all the cards here, and it seems like most of the Brexiteers have refused to acknowledge that for two years. Whatever it is they want to be done, it’s clear they can’t do it.
1
Remember that it was really the Russians who helped sell this disaster to the British through their disinformation campaign.
Yes, they are sowing chaos in western democracies. But what is their goal; world domination, or just making the rest of the world as miserable as the Russians themselves, or something in between?
5
@Martin
They don't know the difference.
@Martin Let's remember that Putin's training was in espionage, and not in economics or international relations. He is doing the only thing he knows how to do. He does not know how to do anything else. This means we're all going to be miserable together eventually.
All this can't help remind me of Barbara Tuchman's classic book, "The March of Folly," which highlighted numerous instances in history where nations, nation-states, or city-states clearly acted in ways that were "against their own best interests."
And persisted in following the path to ruin even after the disastrous end of the path was clear to see.
Why?
Egotistical leaders, dishonest leaders, foolish or incompetent leaders, inciting emotions against rationality, and/or an absurd belief that "we're different"
11
I remember news reports from around the time of the Brexit vote that our own alt-right thug. Steve Bannon, had been over there stirring up nationalism and promoting exiting the E.U.
Britain with a destroyed economy will be a soft target for U.S. venture capitalists to move in and destroy the country's national health care with for-profit insurance scams. Their efforts have be firmly rejected until now.
Certainly the White House occupant and sycophants will be moving in with crushing trade deals to reap U.S. profits and reduce a former ally to a vassal trading partner.
Meanwhile, Bannon, who may be trump-ism's most valuable ambassador, keeps tripping to Europe stirring up more nationalism to continue the E.U. break-up.
So much easier to economically crush individual countries than deal with a united Europe. Makes Vlad happy, too.
America is waging war in another form against our former allies. One disgusting, ugly, American bad apple, supported by a propaganda media business, can cause a high level of damage when there are no counter measures from the U.S. executive branch or congress.
6
Reminds me of the Republicans and Obamacare during Obama's eight years and now two of Trump. Or the Tea Partyers. Repeal, repeal, repeal; it's horrible, terrible, ghastly; hate it, hate it, hate it. But, no alternate plan.
Fascinating how it seems, from these two specific and one generic examples, that it's the hard core right wing types that seem to love to obstruct but don't seem to ever have a viable alternative plan to put forward. At least when Democrats/liberals obstruct, they usually have alternative suggestions - when they're not obstructing attempts to repeal their own existing policies or legislation.
Let's break the code: If you never actually submit something for consideration, you can't be blamed if that something falls on its face. But you can make yourself at least look good criticizing someone else's submission. It's related to gaining or keeping support through fear mongering.
Those that do this are losers and cowards.
Sadly, not everyone here in North America gets the distinction of:
England = the country of England.
Great Britain = the countries of England, Scotland and Wales.
The United Kingdom = England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
There is Ireland (the Republic of Ireland) and Northern Ireland.
There is no "Southern Ireland". If you say that in conversation, someone in Dublin might well toss a football (soccer ball) at your head.
4
A second referendum is needed to approve the deal. The sooner it is held the better.
2
If the purpose of Brexit was for Britain to reclaim the sovereignty it surrendered to the EU in exchange for being a member, then side deals are clearly contrary to the people vote.
Britain should exit the EU by a deadline whether or not any treaties with the EU are executed at that time.
Perhaps Britain has learned from our own United States union of sovereign states. It has resuled in enormous power being taken from the states in spite of the 10th Amendment and balance of the constitution perhaps because the final word on the division of power between the states and the Federal government is made by SCOTUS whose judges are installed entirely by the Federal goverment.
In the original Constitution, the Senators who must "consent" to justice nominations were appointed by the states and represented the interest of the states. Post 17th Amendment, Senators are elected by the people and without the Constitution otherwise changing substantially, Federal power has grown arguably through a Federally bias SCOTUS. If not, how else can the change be explained.
I hope Britain will reclaim its sovereignty from the globalist, particularly because Britain over the last century or so has been the European adult in the room. Recall, how much of Europe ceased to exist as free nationals during WWII until Britain, and its child, the United States, together with Russia bailed them out.
1
Remarkably silly notion. Senators are elected by the people of the states that they represent. Thus states' representatives have ultimate control over Federal judicial nominations. And in any case, the U.S. system is nothing at all like the E.U. system, so all of this is moot.
@Dan Stackhouse
When you elect a senator are you concerned they will maintain the intended state / federal balance of power. Those who will confirm Judges that will limit their own power as Federal Legislators.
In Federalist 45 James Madison describes the Constitution's division of power as follows:
"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.
The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State."
When power is concentrated in the states you can vote with your feet to avoid bad governance. When an area is mishandled at the Federal level like national health care, there is not competing state to escape to.
Competition is a cure for poor governance. That's why the Berlin wall and Border guards in Korea.
Things mishandled nationally are inescapable. For example look at the devastation to poor families the Great Society programs caused. How many fatherless households that care little about education did it create?
For Gods sake, England (my mother country) - call the whole thing off ! If you don't like how the EU works, you are far better changing it from the inside, rather than throwing an imaginary wall up, and retreating back to jingoistic slogans of 'how we won the war'.
You joined the EU in the 70's , because you were not making it on your own . There were miners strikes, 3 day weeks, massive inflation, IMF bailouts and you were the 'sick man of Europe'. Economically, since those early days, European membership has been good for you, if only you will stand back and take an objective look.
15
@Allan B Agreed but May's daft draft plan pretty much keeps UK in the EU....unbelievable!
Yes, we know. It’s just that 17.4 million people who were lied to believed those lies. It can be avoided, but time is running out.
I predict this Brexit deal will be voted down in Parliament, and we will then have another referendum (three-way this time) and enough people will vote to stay in the EU.
But it’s getting close.
1
@Allan B Pre-Thatcher? I'd take those days back in a heartbeat.
Clearly, the only option at this stage would be elections to allow a new government to discern a mandate on what to do about Brexit. As for us sitting here in the peanut gallery, this whole situation serves as a good lesson against getting overly embedded in multi-national organizations that get too big for their britches. No one should have to settle for letting such a group dictate to them about how to run their affairs; if that's what 'globalism' is really about, then no wonder it's provoking a world-wide counterreaction.
3
They need a new referendum, we need a new election.
6
Yes, I know it is more complicated than that. But the emotions behind Brexit and also the political situation here in the US have much to do with those politicians and their counterparts in the press who have pushed and pushed for a borderless world. When you force economic and cultural change wholesale on a country to meet some political ideology you subscribe to, you should expect a gut reaction from a sizable number of citizens. Call them racists or bigots or what have you, but these people also have voices--and votes--that cannot simply be silenced in rapid fashion. The arrogance of the EU in forcing their members to make immediate and drastic accommodations for an enormous influx of refugees, just like the refusal by Congress here back home to deal with illegal entry and our borders, have badly fragmented the nations. And you cannot simply deny peoples feelings and call them biased and ignorant.
4
But on the evidence, one can rather easily bellow against a “borderless,” world and bellow for the capitalism that creates said world.
1
but that's the liberal response. if you don't agree with my ideology you're just wrong and any number of those"-ist" adjectives. and it's ok for them to call people those names even though they espouse ideas like "everyone has a voice", and we're not supposed to "label" people. it's ok for the liberals to do this because they're right and everyone else is wrong. not "of a different opinion", just wrong.
large scale change is something that has to come in measured doses to be accepted. people's opinions and beliefs can be changed but it has to happen a rate of change that people can handle and adjust to. to expect someone to change their ideas 180 degrees because you think it's right isn't going to work. and to then call them names and debase them certainly doesn't help the situation.
major changes in ideology is generational. you cant push it down people's throats all at once and expect it to be fully accepted.
2
Brexit was always an intensely stupid plan anyway. Britain is simply stronger in the E.U. than it will be on its own, the days of having an empire spanning the globe ended long ago. Spain recognizes this and is doing the smart thing by staying in the group. Britain let a populist vote fed by racism and lies take it out of a valuable multinational pact, and so it will suffer, and keep suffering until its citizens admit their mistake and beg to be let back in.
On the bright side, I'm looking forward to going to tour Britain late next year, once the exchange rate gets to about five pounds per dollar. It'll be a cheap vacation and there are plenty of picturesque ruins there.
5
@Dan Stackhouse Ha ha ...historical and not-so-historical ruins I would imagine.
2
Britain is not stronger in the EU. not with the mandates that the EU puts on its member nations. and quite frankly, Spain is staying in because they are not far behind Italy in terms of needing economic help. and italy is basically in austerity and just had their eu budget rejected because it was a tremendous deficit budget. Spain is not far behind. Portugal is an economic mess, and Germany has more than their share if troubles. in short, Europe and the EU are a mess and Britain is trying to extricate itself before it gets dragged under by the rest of the continent. try watching the BBC and euronews and stop getting your European info from the nyt.
1
Why does the New York Times continually refer to the country that Theresa May governs as 'Britain'?
That's like only referring to this country as 'the States'.
Great Britain, United Kingdom, even 'the U.K' are all preferable.
1
It's because it's not so great anymore. Maybe the next prime minister could run on a platform of rejoining the E.U. and thus "make Britain Great Britain again", or "MBGBA".
2
They don't need a better negotiated deal.
They don't need another referendum.
They need leaders who lead.
The gov't should stand up and say quite simply, "Leaving the EU is dumb and hurts our country. We're not going to do it."
Apparently that is too much to ask.
4
Unfortunately, the border with Northern Ireland wasn't discussed much in the UK during the Brexit referendum campaign. In fact, many British people don't know where the border even is: https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/brexit-ireland-border-2-3721935-Nov2017/%3famp=1
Unfortunately, these Brexiteers are unwilling to compromise yet have no specific strategy. The DUP are happy to throw away peace and over a billion pounds of the NI economy to cut off their noses and spite everyone. https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-46202565 Yet the majority in NI voted against Brexit.
Labour won't support a reasonable deal because they want the Conservative party weakened. Sinn Fein won't take their seats in Westminster and vote for this deal because they can't be seen to participate in a British parliament. Everyone has backed themselves into a corner with their "principles" which somehow don't relate to working together for a solution. Theresa May has achieved the best possible in the circumstances but she cannot govern a parliament which is so out of touch with reality.
Unfortunately, Ireland is never a concern for the UK. Yet the EU won't give preferences for the UK over their own members.
6
agree. the border is the biggest and most complex issue for brexit. and no one thought about it up front. perhaps the time is right for reunification. although storemont won't allow that
3
I have to wonder (as many others have) if the wiser and braver thing here is to hold another vote, this time sans help from Russia. This thing has never made any bloody (trying to sound British here) sense and is tearing the UK apart. I'm not sure what the mechanism is to do so and who has the authority but it seems worth exploring.
I understand there'd be a huge political (and possibly violent) backlash from the BREXITeers. But the current path ain't working, and is unlikely to anytime soon.
4
@J Darby You suggest a second referendum even though you recognise what might actually happen?
1
so that's like, you have an election. you don't like the election results so you decide it's time for a do over election?
1
@J Darby
Ha! I figured I'd draw a reaction.
I don't know what the answer is, but what's going on is not working, and is not likely to. Too many vastly divergent constituencies and interests.
The referendum was not binding, it was advisory. There were a number irregularities with it, including Russian interference discovered later (there's nothing Putin wants more than to fracture western alliances), and masses of folks in the days following that it was poorly worded and they were confused as to what they were voting for. The margin was razor thin.
It's time to consider that a mistake was made, and to consider a different remedy. There's no guarantee that a violent backlash won't also occur by continuing down the current path.
1
The British Parliament could decide to throw the first referendum out the window, then call for a new one, ideally with at least a 55% leave vote required.
To make such a momentous decision based on one vote with a bare majority was stupendously stupid. Of course changing the rules now will enrage many people.
It's called political courage, Ms. May.
3
Hopefully, Brexit is now terminal. A second Brexit vote would certainly end any life support for it. The message to the World would be that Britain regained its senses, as the US must also do.
2
It's amusing to read the comments of Americans who are all for Britain being governed by foreign powers, but who wouldn't themselves accept their own country being ruled by any foreign power.
I think it's high time The United States of America accepted Mexican, Guatamalan and Venezuelan rule, in the same way Americans expect me to accept German and French rule.
5
Personally, I don’t find this kind of right-wing conspiracist drivel funny at all any more.
The Europeans are bending over backwards to please the Brits and it's still not good enough. It seems the UK needs to spend a generation in the wilderness to learn it's true place in the world. Just tragic really.
And let us not forget that the ills that Britain blames on the EU are almost all self-inflicted. This goes first and foremost for immigration which the UK has every right to control under FOM law but chooses not to.
4
You can’t be serious.
The EU hasn’t bent in any direction at all.
Simply put Brexit was Britain's nationalist moment. And one way or another they will pay for it dearly
5
Got to love those ministers who resigned because the Brexit deal isn't what they expected.
Many people voted for Brexit based on the promise of millions of additional pounds for the National Healthcare system which, on the day after the vote, those politicians who had been most supportive of Brexit admitted this was an utter lie.
Perhaps it's not surprising that when you win based on a lie, you're going to find it hard going to make a deal based on the truth.
15
All this chaos was easy to foresee from the time the Brexit referendum result was announced. It's Trump-style foreign and trade policy: Ready, Shoot, Aim. UK has been and remains in no position to bargain effectively with EU on withdrawal terms.
2
GB has always wanted it's crumpets and eat them too, when it comes to the EU. They've always wanted the economic games played on their terms with nothing in response other than their contempt for the continent. Dear Britain: Either leave or stay but you don't get to play the game all on your terms. Yours Truly, An EU citizen.
8
The Russians had a hand in the self destructive Brexit vote just as they did in the election of Trump. The full scope of that interference and the associated collaborators still remains to be revealed.
A majority of Americans would probably favor a redo of our 2016 fiasco if we could. The Brits should strongly consider nullifying their vote to leave the EU until they complete a Mueller type investigation.
4
I've followed the Brexit process fairly closely. (I used to live in London, so I'm especially interested.) Until I read the comment from @T, though, I for some reason hardly thought of the possibility of Russian interference in the very close "leave" vote.
Let us hope that PM May's dogged fight to make Brexit happen wasn't seeded by Russian interference. Could Russian tampering have flipped this history-changing vote? I hope that Europeans have investigated this thoroughly before "going over the cliff" Trump-wise -- but even more irreversably.
2
Brexit is the paranoid self- righteous product of Britain’s “common man” abetted by disinformation and fake news by the same Russian and the other mysterious unnamed sources that brought the US Donald Trump, aimed at disrupting the rules of law that have kept the cheaters and bullies at bay. Like Trump It will obviously do the country and people significant disservice if allowed to take effect in any significant way. Another round of voting on the issue is definitely warranted, especially as the nature and intent of the nefarious spoilers of the common good are now apparent and can be thwarted by the media, backed by the authorities, to help entail a fair round of voting.
3
In America you've only got Trump for four or eight years. We've got Brexit for ever. I truly feel (as an ardent remainer/remoaner) than we're now on a downward slope which, as a 50-year-old, I won't see corrected in my life time.
The thing that annoys me is that 46% of people still think Brexit is a good idea. Where are the anti-Brexit folk to shout that the EU isn't the great bogeyman holding us back that is the standard line given by Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc?
5
The first Brexit vote was a fraud on the voters. They should have a re-vote, with full disclosure this time.
9
It’s quite comforting knowing we’re not the only ones immersed in crisis. Indeed, the links between us and our sister country remain...and run deep.
3
Here's a suggestion: Since Brexit was as big a blunder as this country electing Donald Trump why not go back to the people and give them another chance to get back with the EU. At least in their country the majority gets to control what is going on. Here we have a President who received three million fewer votes than his opponent. And in the recent election something like 13 million fewer votes for the Republicans than the Democrats but still control of the Senate.
2
Let there be a second vote on Brexit. That will either change the direction or reinforce the need to make plans. The people deserve another chance to vote. They did not have all the information then that they have now...
2
EU referenda are like a streetcar. Keep calling them until you get the result you want, then stop.
2
All this turmoil tells me that the UK did not understand what they were voting for when they voted for Brexit. Now that they have a less emotional and clearer idea of how it will impact them they should vote on it again. Its like going to the GWB contemplating suicide because of how bad things and then, while standing on the bridge looking down at the cold water way beneath, making a reassessment and deciding there is another way.
2
Facebook probably also deserves credit as Russia’s platform for tainting the Brexit vote.
3
The fail of Brexit is interesting from a Canadian point of view.
Quebec tried twice to leave Canada with a similar project than Brexit. Quebec's independantists wanted to leave Canada but keep economic ties with Canada trought an association. It would probably have failed on the conditions to leave Canada, as we can see not with Britain trying to leave Europe.
UK will probably go in election and elect the Labour who will have to promise a referendum on the EU-UK deal. When electors see the consequences of Brexit and how they have been lied to, they will most likely change their minds and choose to remain.
As in US electors realized the consequences of the lies and poor management of Trump and slammed him down in the last midterms.
Seceding from a nation and leaving a political union are not even close to the same thing.
1
Brexit has only inflicted turmoil, uncertainty, and anxiety on the UK. Nothing good has come from it and indeed the country is significantly weaker and less prosperous than it was before. A future cut off from the rest of Europe is bleak.
Let's call the whole thing off.
3
Raab was not a voice of reason, but a hardliner. More than half of Britain doesn’t support that approach. So perhaps May can find support in parliament there?
6
Wasn’t Mr Raab the frontman of the negotiations? Why would he resign the day after, of all people and times? Something’s fishy here. I think this is a tactic of Ms May and her allies.
4
By happenstance, I was in London the morning the Brexit vote was tallied and the surprising result announced. Totally surreal, I watched David Cameron resign on live TV while proclaiming that, above all, the will of UK voters had to be carried out.
If the public will is the guiding force here, put this mess to another referendum and undo the mistake. In a democracy - civics 101 - the public should have a say two years later now that it's clear there is no workable plan for exiting the EU.
3
Brexit. A bad idea getting worse by the moment and no apparent way to stop it. Or maybe negotiate and extension and call for a re-vote?
4
The British people voted for Brexit because they felt they had lost too much autonomy with membership in the EU. A major issue, perhaps the major issue, is immigration. Many British citizens wish to restrict immigration. Frankly, it is their right to so desire; there are both positives and negatives to unfettered immigration. Opposing unrestricted immigration is NOT the same thing as bigotry!
Prime Minister May is in an extraordinarily difficult position, trying to maintain something resembling free trade, without sacrificing autonomy. Most likely her plan is close to the best possible compromise.
Whatever she does, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people. To those rushing to leave her cabinet and to the many opposing her plan: it's a whole lot easier to criticize what someone else is doing than to successfully achieve a better outcome yourself.
I wish Ms. May success.
2
@Alex you need to review the daft draft plan more carefully before praising the incompetent PM
@Alex Resolving these issues by quitting EU is like shooting a fly with a cannon. There is a lot of collateral damage to the misinformed.
1
Reminds me of Trump. It all sounds easy down at the pub. When they find out it's not easy they leave and the rest of us have to clean up the mess. And if we don't engage the world we will have immigrants on our borders looking for safety and opportunity. We are all in this together, like it or not.
181
The UK parliament needs to toss May, form an emergency coalition government comprised of the major parties, and pass some sort of 'Exit-Brexit' measure posthaste!
45
@Chris Morris
Yes, that would be great but Labour’s leader, Jeremy Corbyn, and his backers are determined to do whatever is needed to force a new Election by torpedoing the May-driven deal. Moreover Labour has given absolutely no specificicity, only vague aspirations, on their strategy to obtain a better, softer Brexit deal, even though the E.U. is unlikely to make further concessions short of the UK stopping Brexit to remain....and last week in an interview with a German paper, Corbyn, a long reputed Euro sceptic, said that Brexit can’t be stopped now.
Yes, it’s indeed a mess here. The really great irony is that so many gullible British sods at the lower end of the economic ladder who embraced & voted for Brexit will suffer the most if something less than the May deal, and particulary a no deal, is the end result.
On the other hand many of us US-born residents here in the UK are hardly envious of the current political scene in not just your locality but indeed also much of the rest of the US.
Good luck to all of us wherever we live....
10
@Chris Morris What you're suggesting is over-riding the will of the British people. The people voted to leave the EU. Period.
3
@giniajim Most of those who voted Leave had absolutely no idea what they were voting for. They were fed lies.
11
The British have considered themselves special within the EU and have a long history of exceptions made for them.
I believe that Brexit is a mistake; however, I would caution those who call for a second vote in the UK.
Wouldn’t it be the remaining EU countries that should get to vote first if they want the UK to rejoin after all the antics and accusations made by the former member?
89
We haven’t left yet.
5
@Jacques Strauss One foot out the door and the other on a banana peel. The UK has managed to pretty will tell the EU to bugger off and they are not likely to forget it, hence the demands by the EU.
If BREXIT was such a great idea, why not leave with no preconditions instead of the incessant whining by the Brexit proponents about the compromises needed to get the EU to extend the benefits.
This is what happens when populism is used as the basis for economic and trade policy.
15
So yes, the UK has not left even though bags are packed by the door and departure ticket has been validated.
The common misperception is that Brexit somehow can be called off by the UK at any time.
It is my understanding that by invoking article 50 the membership ends on March 29th, 2019 with or without a negotiated deal.
The current deal appears to be an extension period to be governed under certain EU rules to make the transition easier but the membership is still final as of 3/29.
Revocation of article 50 by the UK is subject to agreement by EU member countries. Same applies if the UK would reapply for membership.
5
Rule Britannia seems to have sprung a leak with Brexit. Not my business, but I'd be figuring out a second vote to test the numerical veracity of "leave". To leave the union for a minority of voters seems a leap into the furnace of political demise. If a second, (truly informed electorate), vote "leave", then the political class can weather a hard Brexit. However, if a true majority suffers a minority cram-down, then a whole new set of political voices will be needed to repair the British leaky boat.
2
The basic problem is the whole premise for Brexit was flawed from the outset.
The UK, like the US, has a fundamental urban/rural split with London and other cities pro-EU while the rural areas are still bemoaning the loss of empire.
As a practical matter, the UK will leave the EU which has a combined GDP of over $17 billion, second only to the US, to go it alone while the rest of the world is coalescing into major trading groups that are making trade deals with other major trading groups. Where the UK's $2.5 billion economy now fits into all this is really not clear. Becoming an economic vassal state of the Trump's US doesn't sound like a path to renewed greatness.
Goodbye to Great Britain, hello to Little Britain.
15
Nive, but try “trillion,” I think.
1
@Robert
Of course it's trillions but frankly I still can't wrap my mind around a number that I normally associate with astronomical measurements.
1
@GerardM
Why would you (foolishly) assume that Britain will be on its own? Honestly, the biggest flaw in Brexit has been the political classes inability to deal with other anglophone countries. If they had hard Brexited two years ago, you really think they couldn't have figured out trade deals with Canada and ANZAC at this point????
Do you think Trump would give a UK giving the EU the finger a hard time on a trade deal????
The inablilty for people to see alternatives and EU replacements is probably the biggest factor in the absolute train wreck that this has become.
After the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in Britain, the continent had its French Revolution of 1789. The UK never caught up. Maybe being a vassal state of the EU for 20 years or so would help England. Will parliament begrudge Theresa May the honor of implementing the reforms?
A bit of difficulty won’t make the process not worth it. Britain will get most of its independence back. I say good for them. The European Union is slowly losing its luster. The EU could have kept this all together had they not insisted on having such authoritarian control over the individual member states.
4
This is precisely where the irresponsibility of Trumpism joins up with the craziness of Brexit. I’d add that both surf on pretty much the same wave of racism (sorry, “nationalist” just doesn’t serve as a decent fig-leaf any more) and profound ignorance of the nature of capitalism and our economy.
3
@John
Glad to know that EU is there to add luster.
I find Raab's timing of his resignation from his post especially poignant. Surely he knew the exact terms and conditions that Theresa May outlined to her cabinet better than anyone else, as they are the result of his negotiations with the EU. If Mr. Raab found the compromise he helped to arrive at so intolerable, he should have resigned in protest weeks ago. This doesn't pass the smell test; it reminds me too much of rats leaving the sinking HMS Theresa May. He now joins Boris Johnson's club of politicians who place personal ambition over country no matter the consequences. An unstructured "Hard Brexit" will do significant damage to the European, but especially the British economy, and its now likely to happen.
28
The critical element is that Ulster and the Republic remain fully open to each other. Otherwise, Brexit is a return trip to The Troubles.
13
This will kill London, one of the most vibrant cities on the planet. They were insane for not re-doing such a life-altering (and city, and nation) decision. They've taken the Trumpian route -- and made it forever.
24
Not sure how PM May is the villain in the Brexit fiasco. The people of the UK voted to leave the EU. She, as their elected leader is trying to carry out their wishes.
What if here in America we passed an amendment to outlaw the sale of alcohol. Then, because it was so unpopular and caused an unprecedented crime wave, our president decided to not enforce it. He orders the FBI and the Federal judicial system to ignore this new amendment. Is this approach what is being suggested for PM May to follow?
It took 15 years for the 21st amendment to be passed which repealed the 18th amendment, and five presidents had to deal with its consequences. Wilson tried to veto the 18th only to be overridden. Harding drank his way through it. Not sure how Coolidge dealt with it, but FDR's victory over Hoover, was partially fueled by his promise to get it repealed.
Point is, what do PM May's detractors expect her to do? I'm guessing that drinking probably is an important part of the answer.
14
Why not vote again and require a super majority of eg., 60% or 2/3? Some decisions are so consequential that they require more than 51% concurrence. The way it used to be for US supreme court justice confirmations or as it is for merger or dissolution under most corporate law in US (2/3). The Brexit issue was so complicated that many voting did not take the time to understand the consequences. The sensible thing to do would be to revisit it now that it seems obvious that it was not so easy nor smart in reality.
38
@Bob Edler Just because it’s difficult doesn’t make it the wrong plan. Britain is just the tip of what’s yet to come. They are not the only EU nation that is having a groundswell of pushback against EU tyranny.
2
@Bob Edler
So, you would like to have a super majority to get out of EU. How about a super majority to elect the President(of the US) or at least a majority?
3
Gee, at this point, they should scrap the whole thing, rejoin the EU, and re-entrench against growing nationalism and an anti-globalism Trump administration. For the long-term survival of our planet and species, I firmly believe we need to take a global stance against climate change.
30
@Andre Hoogeveen Brexit is hardly an issue for climate change. It’s not as if Britain is leaving the Paris Accord.
1
Like the barking dog who chases after busses then one day he catches one, but doesn’t know what to do wit it. These politicians exploited people’s fears of immigrants, and now they have to admit they never really had a plan for a real BREXIT in the first place.
56
Indeed.
3
@EW
Really this sounds like Bush's 2003 Iraq war like , you know how that it end for us.
4
And people think Americans are crazy? The UK has lost its mind and lost touch with reality. They are not in a position to dictate the structure of Europe’s economy. They don’t even know what they want for themselves.
35
@Andrew Now they have the ability to decide for themselves as a nation instead of being held hostage to a system that outweighs the Democratic will of the people.
1
It appears that the Brits are so insistent that Putin did not make them do this that they will destroy themselves rather than reverse course. Perhaps these lessons are needed before they will wake from their brainwash. Here in the US, we still pretend that Trump is a reasonable choice as president. The coming punishment is deserved, in both cases. We have politicians who are so greedy for power they cannot admit the reality of their gullibility. They would destroy their own nations rather than admit they got played, and by a very simplistic and obvious scam.
25
@Chris my thoughts exactly. It may take a couple generations for both brits and americans to admit, even to themselves, that they were successfully manipulated. Similar to the Vietnam war that over 40 years later, is only beginning to be discussed frankly. I was astonished at the open reception to Ken Burns' recent film. Maybe he can produce something 40 years from now on this theme.
3
@Chris and con man Boris goes along for the free ride to PM?
1
As an Irish American, watching British politicians complain about being "a vassal state" is amusing, especially since the reason they must remain in the customs union is to protect the Irish border. Adding to that, the DUP is so afraid of a creeping united Ireland that their heads are spinning! Prop up May, and get an indefinite customs union, defy May and get a crash-out plus a hard border, both going against the vote in Northern Ireland which was anti-Brexit! Karma's coming for you Westminster!
41
Brexit was the British version of electing Trump - total idiocy, in which xenophobia is chosen over the reality of what benefits the country.
Now the bill is coming due.
106
These are really sad and turbulent times for the Brits. It is still fresh in my mind of reading that the most googled inquiries in Brirain AFTER the Brexit vote was "what is Brexit?" or similar searches. This to me was a clear indication that a signifiant number of voters were unaware or misinformed of the real nature/consequences of Brexit. Now Ms May, who inherited this mess is attempting to navigate through this political land mine while avoiding the oppositions constant barrage of child-like antics as witnessed by the resignation of two malcontents. The Brits have to suffer from the ill choice of Brexit while we Yanks have to endure our disastrous choice of DJT. Such is life.
18
Like Trump, Brexiteer politicians in the UK saw a chance in fanning the fires of racism, xenophobia and isolationism (pretty strong in England and Wales, less so in Scotland and N. Ireland) for their own advance. Like Trump, they were not expecting to win, and they had no plan for negotiations. Like Trump, they bluffed that everything was going to be easy, that the EU would give whatever was asked from them to keep marvelous, mighty UK on side, otherwise they would in a hole.
Guess who is in a hole now. The moral calibre of the ministers involved is pretty obvious from their resignations. Dominic Raab was in charge of the negotiations for the last two or three months. Surely he had some idea of where the agreement was heading for long before today. The rest are not that different. They know the problem can't be solved, so they scramble to position themselves now as opponents of Theresa May, to see what they can get in the ensuing mess after her departure. It is a tragic, sordid tale from beginning to end.
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@GG2018
Well said my impressions exactly from way over here across the Atlantic. One would hope the craven positioning would be obvious. Its easy to throw spit-wads. What a questionable thing to do for a politician to pass an agreement, with stated hesitation sure, but then resign as if the compromises weren't necessary or as if one didn't have a hand in them. What a bad-faith operator(s).
28
@GG2018
Hear hear! These brexiters, led by Boris Johnson, are guided by self-interest only. They are all jockeying for position now as they throw the Prime Minister to the wolves; her crime: having tried to clean up their mess.
33
@GG2018 They really are the dogs that caught the bumper. EU cash is what gave Ireland and Northern Ireland the wherewithall to strike a peace deal. Peace - harrumph--how boring to the Brexiteers, eh?
3
Despite her many evident flaws, Mrs May has done her best with this proposal and should be commended for it. It is clear that a draft deal was always going to be something like this, and certainly way different from what Leave were selling in the referendum, no matter who was living at No. 10. Now that some reality has been established for British voters, democracy requires that they be offered the opportunity to indicate their preference on such an epochal issue. There must be a another public vote.
20
The title seems dishonest. The "crisis" is only in negotiating the Russian originated and led idea of Brexit from the EU. May herself claims to have opposed it but is pushing forth to get it done in spite of the knowledge that the Russians were behind it all by asserting that she is doing the "voters" bidding.
Why hasn't she called a new referendum now that it is clear the Russians backed the whole thing?
16
The UK voted for a maliciously misleading vision of Brexit peddled by bad actors who accepted no responsibility for implementing this pipe dream or for the inevitably unsatisfactory results.
For her part, Theresa May would rather be consistent than right. Time for a second "eyes open" vote.
20
It's too bad the UK can't seem to find a way to break free of the troubled EU. I think it's the best decision, in the long term, the Country could make. It's going to be painful initially, but when the EU begins going bankrupt because the majority of its members are one step away from insolvency, it will be a blessing. Brexit hopefully will happen - it can then open up the exit for other countries as well. To continue supporting just Greece, Italy and Spain will be challenging over the next several years - those countries still can't afford to pay their debts.
2
A bad deal may be better than no deal, but it’s still a bad deal. I don’t know what 52% of Britons were thinking when they voted leave but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t this, and probably not hard Brexit either. Another vote is called for.
189
@Thollian, some weren't thinking perhaps of all the issues, some weren't misled on the financial aspects and little analysis was done by the government at that time.
13
@Thollian Agree totally! The better informed people are about the matter the better, and more likely they will vote to remain.
4
@Thollian
They were sold a pack of lies that reflected their bubble world desires and few bothered to become informed, think critically or access factual information. Sound familiar!
9
Has isolationism ever brought joy and prosperity? Brexit has become muddied and muddled. As with most things historically like this, the poor and working classes will suffer while the powerful and wealthy have the resources to maintain their status. Additionally, I think their economy will suffer even greater blows - if Brexit comes to fruition. Pair the devaluation of the Pound with a few more pieces of lead on to an already laden ship and we’ll have another economic crisis on hand.
17
David Cameron's blunder to have the referendum seems to have proven that Brexit is a huge perilous undertaking. The fools who want to just have the UK withdraw from the EU aren't realistic. As was said May's plan just pushes the conclusion off to some far off date. So the UK floats seemingly toward Brexit rudderless.
10
For heaven's sake, have another vote on leaving the EU, Good People of the U.K.
It is clear that the same democracy-destroyers who stole the U.S. presidential election in 2016 are behind the "brexit" scam.
There is still time to stop it and NOW is the time.
Stand up and say WE THE PEOPLE do not want to leave the EU. WE want continued peace in OUR lives.
98
@njglea My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately, a large percentage of THE PEOPLE voted for Brexit, as they did here for our odious president.
The original vote was tainted by manipulation and a paucity of accurate information. The Brits need to have a new election.
11
700,000 people marched in London last month demanding a People’s Vote to think again before committing ourselves to the disaster that is Brexit. That’s 1% of the UK population.
The Brexiters have taken a leaf out of Trump’s playbook and call it ‘fake news’: apparently ‘half the people marching were French people who live in London’!
Recent polls show that most people wish to Remain in the EU which is why the Brexiters idea of ‘taking back control’ doesn’t extend to a vote to see if people are still onboard with Brexit. For them it was one man, one vote, one time.
11
@Suzanne Wilson and, in talking to some of the "leavers," they never thought it would pass so they did it out of pride even though in the City, all their employers told them they'd take a hit. Too much "Britain's Got Talent" and not enough representative democracy.
1
As a very sizable portion of the UK electorate didn'teven know what the EU was, the vote to stay or leave was a fool's errand.
28
The best deal was the EU membership. The worst deal will be crashing out. Brexiteers demand a fantasy deal where they enjoy all the benefits of a EU membership without paying their dues. Theresa May has negotiated the only possible reasonable deal to allow the U.K. to leave with minimizing the damage. It has flaws but that’s not her fault, it’s the fault of a process that started with a botched referendum that never should have been looked at as the final decision.
The Brexiteers are a bunch of neo-colonialists who harbor dystopian dreams of a Great Britain that has ceased to exist a long time ago.
It’s a travesty that 100 years after the end of the Great War we witness an emergence of nationalist thinking that caused two cataclysmic wars in the 20th century.
75
The whole Brexit episode is a good lesson in how demagoguery has real consequences.
Here you had British politicians buttering their bread by dumping on the EU as the cause of all of Britain's ailments. The people were suckered on the promise of no more obligations to the continent and a revived and independent Britain.
Turns out things are not so simple. Ireland doesn't want a hard border between north and south. Scotland wants to remain in the EU. To acquiesce a small coalition partner, PM May gave the Irish an open border, but at the cost of alienating Scotland. Continuing to push for Brexit may lead to an English/Wales exit and an independent Scotland and an united Ireland.
And Britain said it could negotiate any trade deal once it broke from the EU. Maybe not.
But never mind, the politicians who called for the Brexit continue to claim that this deal stinks, but the question is what deal would they get otherwise? The EU is the far bigger partner of this deal. They have no interest in making this easy for Britain. London will certainly lose its status as a European banking centre.
So those who advocated Brexit are now quitting cabinet now that they have seen the result of their campaign. Remind you of anyone? Remember Sarah Palin, quitting half way into her mandate? Britain may undo itself as a result of this campaign and those responsible are now running for the exits.
389
@Paul F: Well stated. And all was predictable.
20
@Paul F said, "The whole Brexit episode is a good lesson in how demagoguery has real consequences. Here you had British politicians buttering their bread by dumping on the EU as the cause of all of Britain's ailments. The people were suckered on the promise of no more obligations to the continent and a revived and independent Britain."
Paul, you have just described trump and the Republican neo-Nationalist Party. Thank you.
Here, I'll show you what I mean:
The whole TRUMP episode is a good lesson in how demagoguery has real consequences. Here you had REPUBLICAN politicians buttering their bread by dumping on the MINORITIES as the cause of all of THE US's ailments. The BASE were suckered on the promise of no more MONIES to the MINORITIES and a revived and independent AMERICA.
52
@Paul F: 150 years ago our country fought a prolonged civil war to keep our union together, but it seems that all the Brits will need to shatter theirs is the threat of remaining in a trade association (the EU) that they in- fact have hugely benefited from over the past 30-40 years. Somewhere in Hades, I'm sure Hitler is probably having a good laugh at the very thought.
15
So hold another Brexit referendum, and if the vote is to stay in the EU, hold one's hat in one's hand and ask for forbearance from the member states.
And if the vote is still to leave, then the people of the UK can understand there will be times of hardship.
People understand, I am sure, that conditions change, and hopes sometimes don't bear out.
Putin and Trump would hate for the UK to stay, but hey, that is probably a plus.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
30
I don't think backing down from Brexit is an option at all. If it really came down to the UK having to back down while not looking anti-democratic at the same time, they could always find a way; e.g. to hold a 'first' referendum whether to re-vote Brexit or not, and vote for a "second Brexit" if the result of the first referendum is a Yes. The money spent on two more referendums would not be too much of an issue for the politicians, but the 0.0001% risk to fail again would.
And I read David Cameron wants to go back into politics! I'm sure he'd do well, since masochism seems on the rise all around the world.
4
Make Great Britain GREAT Again! Pass a referendum cancelling Brexit and rejoin Western Civilization.
19
The polar opposite of the abuse of power by a government is mob rule. Referendums are a type of mob rule where people who do not and probably can not understand the complexities and implications of certain issues are allowed to determine the plan in dealing with them. It is not only inappropriate, it is simply another terrible way to govern a country or a state.
15
@peter bailey
One man one vote unless he/she is not intelligent enough?????
2
So Prime Minster Jeremy Corbyn when?
2
@Jean-Paul Marat
When there will be no more UK.
1
Several decades of drip-drip anti-Brussels propaganda from Rupert Murdock's stable of tabloid and broadsheet hate-amplifiers combined with wild fantasies promoted by the most enthusiastic political cheerleaders of withdrawal left most UK citizens ill-equiped to cast an informed vote. Now that they can see how the Gordian knot of continental trade interdependencies steadfastly refuses to unravel, they deserve either a second vote or a wholesale change in leadership.
It was likely beyond May or anyone else to force a better deal from Europe, but it's now hard to see how she survives as PM given the near-certainty of a vote to reject the deal in Parliament. She's going to exit the world stage by the same ignominious route as her predecessor Cameron, and I think a snap election with the spectre of a hard exit looming is possible in the new year.
30
It’s a lot more than Murdoch. The Daily Mail and the Daily Express are garbage beyond his control but the same or worse level of nonsense and lies. British (or more accurately English) tabloids are our poison just like Americans have Fox News or One America Network.
Catnip for the intellectually lazy.
Brexit was a stupid idea from the start, now all the UK has left is the short end of the stick, all because of the xenophobia of some folks, most of whom did not understand the fallout.
79
For all its faults, the EU was the culmination of an effort to liquidate the legacies of the two world wars that so utterly devastated Europe and brought the US to the fore of world politics. Who but fools believe Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage? This whole Brexit business has exposed enormous weaknesses not necessarily in Europe--though she has them--but in the UK itself. Meanwhile, we have chaos and political insanity ruling our own White House. And meanwhile, Russia, China, India, the Middle East, Africa and everywhere else drift off on their own course while Europe and America nourish themselves in idiocy and recriminations over--what?
59
@David A. Lee I heard a BBC broadcaster interviewed on public radio today. He made some crack about this all stemming from the financial crisis --that none of the bankers went to jail. I get the part in the UK where austerity was a bitter pill on top of it all but in Europe and America, we're all still so spoiled or forgetful. The reasons these institutions (EU, NATO) have survived is because the alternatives were so dire to their creators and the generation or two immediately following.
1
@Peg Spot on, Peg. I'm a man 78 years old. Even as a child 3 and 4 years old when my Uncle was battling the German 7th Army at the Bulge, I remember my Mom remarking on her Mother's suffering, waiting and waiting and waiting for the ultimate news (which came at length) that he was safe and the war was over. We live in a generation that is forgetting all of that. All of this simply stupefies me, because this insufferable British arrogance is spitting in the eyes of their own history. Thanks for your comment.
1
For the sake of power Theresa May took over the leadership of the UK after the Brexit vote. She was never for Brexit but tried to make the best out of that uneducated decision.
Two years later we now know it was a stupid decision. It turns out that the EU is a lot better than most people think. First and foremost it brought peace to Europe. 70 years of peace, not heard off in the last 2000 years.
I still hope that in the end, days before March 29th, common sense will prevail and they will remain in the EU.
265
@Two in Memphis Britain may remain in the EU but the EU will not remain as a united force as more countries exit. Hungary and Poland are almost out. Italy and Greece will soon leave and the "Bloc" should be completely gone by 2030
@Charles in service
Nothing new there.
Brexiters have kept up this 'EU collapsing imminently' nonsense since about Day1 of the UK's membership.
None of what you say is true. Italy and Greece resent aspects of EU membership but there's not the slightest will of the people to leave. They can't afford too.
Poland and Hungary are not 'almost out'. They're involved in a spat about sovereignty - having probably breached EU conventions on democracy and judicial independence. They'll back down rather than exit.
Ultimately, NO other EU country is willing to pay the price of exit - the loss a heck of a good and privileged membership.
Of course it suits Brexiters to claim that others are following their foolish, destructive antics.
2
Are we seeing the demise of the Conservative Party. The country is completely ill prepared for this exit and apparently will be. As am older person I saw a dysfunctional England boom when it entered the EU. People in Britain forget the UK's 70's and early 80's. I suspect the people will eventually hold the Conservatives and the UKIP accountable in the future. I suspect Nigel has his bag packed and ticket to Moscow already purchased. This mess will be Putin's crowning achievement as Trumpism is quickly being rejected in the US.
243
The 48% of us who voted to remain in the EU hadn’t forgotten the UK of the 70s when we were ‘the sick man of Europe’.
I’d never been on a march in my life until I went on both People’s Vote Marches in London this year and I’m hoping that common sense will prevail in the end and the mad Brexit project is abandoned in all its forms.
35
@GUANNA You're right about the intentions of venal demogogue Nigel Farge (just wrong about the destination) - soon after the referendum he was in Germany applying for permanent residence. Rees-Mogg who is the most extremer advocate for Brexit also manages investments and, after the referendum, he advised clients to move funds to Dublin ... all the while telling British voters how wonderful a post-Brexit UK would be. The hypocrisy of those pushing for Brexit mind-boggling ....
26
@GUANNA in my opinion, UK populace knew what they were getting in siding with Nigel. Bu they probably were not thinking that con man Boris would outright lie to them.
3
The real issue is that no one knows what "Brexit" was or is. Some want all the benefits and none of the responsibilities (EU would never agree to this). Others want a clean break and take the consequences, good and bad. Others want a compromise like that on the table now. Roughly half the country did not want to leave at all. The only thing to do is have another referendum with three questions: stay, leave with this deal, leave with another deal or no deal. However, due to the lack of leadership in the UK political establishment, the most likely outcome is a disorganized exit with no agreement with the EU.
142
@felixmk
I have to agree, that the lack of leadership has been this biggest cause of the mess we are seeing. There is absolute zero vision in parliament currently on where the UK should be in 25, 50, 100 years. They almost seem to have no agency and are just reacting to the actions that are being made around them.
Also I do not understand how "strong and stable" was a good idea. How can Brexit be stable?
9
The reason they are having such a hard time because leaving the European Union is a terrible idea. They would do better to educate the citizens about the losses they are about to face and to hold a new referendum. This type of nationalism is dead, it is a smaller world and we need greater cooperation between our world governments.
421
"This type of nationalism is dead," not in Trump's America.
25
@Y IK I think Mr. Trump is more representative of White Nationalists. Do you remember the reports of how he made employees of color leave the casino floor before he arrived? His apparent support for the nice people marching with the Klan and nazis. His recent attack on five reporters: three black and two hispanic.
29
@Joe Barnett You're right and that should have been done way before the referendum so voters knew what they were voting for. Now, the politicians won't do because, to do so, would be to admit they've been lying for the last 2 1/2 years ...
11
We're in crisis mode here in the UK. The choice is now between Theresa May's deal, which stands no chance of obtaining the support of Parliament, and no deal at all come 29th March, which means economic meltdown and mass job losses. Bizarrely, the only sane option - calling the whole thing off - simply doesn't merit a mention from Theresa May, so it's over the cliff we go. I predict plenty of opportunities in the UK for your health insurance vultures in the near future.
404
@Monterey Seaotter “Health insurance vultures”: well-said!
14
@Monterey Seaotter
If it makes you feel any better, I am now planning my dirt cheap vacation to England in 2019. How is Bath in, lets say, June or July?
12
@Monterey Seaotter Do whatever you can to protect the NHS!!! The last thing you want is the U.S.'s non-system of health care.....
26
It's hard to decipher what the Brits want, but Theresa May isn't the problem, she's the only person with the guts to stay in it and lead them through. All the original instigators are complete frauds and the country knows it. They ought to call a new vote. Most will probably not support a brexit now. The outcome will be bitter, but it's bitter anyway. At least their economy will be stable again.
469
@Tom J
Agreed- Theresa May is the only adult in the room. None of the Brexiteers was willing to step up after the vote and so all the heavy lifting was left to her- she's done the best she could which is still not good enough. The Brits need another referendum.
43
@Tom J "Theresa May" and "lead"....not the concept I associate her with.
2
@Tom J
"Theresa May isn't the problem, she's the only person with the guts to stay in it and lead them through"?
No, she's really the one dead-set on driving the bus off the cliff, having taken the wheel from Cameron, who steered Britain towards this abyss for a cheap political stunt (which obviously backfired big-time!)
And May has consistently acted with political posturing, double-talk, and demagogic blaming of the Euros, NOT anything like real leadership.
A REAL leader would recognize what most sane people clearly see -- that Brexit is a potential DISASTER for the UK and act accordingly in the best interests of the nation.
Sticking to a disastrous course of action is simply not being an "adult" or "leading", it's egotistical folly of the worst sort, which will inflict massive harm on the economy and the people of Britain.
21
Maybe it's time to call another referendum on Brexit and end all this floundering.
483
There are a lot of people over here calling for just that. This madness needs to end.
51
@Christy -- That assumes reamain would be successful. Knowing what we know about the bases' intransigence here in the States, I would say that's not a given. What then? Start all over again?
11
Christy,
Since the Brexit vote it's been found that the Russian government had a hand in influencing its outcome.
This is reason enough to have another election..
26
I find this Conservative maneuvering by Brexit supporters in government to be deeply cynical. Having sold a lie to the British public that the road to Brexit was paved with gold, these hucksters are now pretending to resign on principle, right before the economic and social costs of this folly kick in. They know perfectly well that the fault lies in the lies, not in Theresa May. She has no good options, because Brexit is stupid and these same Conservatives never bothered to think it through. It's right up there with the "replace" part of "repeal and replace." If I were the Prime Minister, I'd resign "on principle" while the resigning's good as well, and give a sweetly cutting speech on how the details of Brexit are clearly best left to its vocal, passionate supporters. Like Raab, Lewis, and their coward-in-chief, Boris Johnson.
68
@Julie, what a great suggestion for May.
4
How can everyone win? Either there's a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland is in a different customs zone to the rest of the UK (in which case, Scotland may well be next), or the UK stays in the EU customs zone.
There are no other options. The laws of geometry cannot be changed.
This is an perfect example of why the Leave vote was ridiculous from the start.
18
Bravo. Time for a revote on Brexit. It was a Russian scam all along with several prominent Britains selling their souls for a chance at power [does that sound familiar?].
24
Britain has no choice but to continue the Brexit process as her Prime Minister has mandated it. It is absurd to reopen the referendum process as it would only cast an aspersion on rationality of British voters when they do not deserve such a treatment.
There are some in Britain who cannot think of the simple political necessity of Brussels replacing Westminster at the apex of the Union. Perhaps they are still enamored with past British colonial glory with ‘Britannia ruling the wave’. What was eminently possible for Berlin had been proved difficult for Westminster to think about a Europe in terms of concrete parameters of today’s perspective.
1
@Sam Sengupta ". . . it would only cast an aspersion on rationality of British voters when they do not deserve such a treatment."!?
This make little sense to me. Are you saying that people --having more information on the issue-- can't be allowed to ever change their position?
9
Hold another national vote - that's the only way this will be satisfactorily resolved. The British people who voted in FAVOR of this farce of an Act were lied to and misled by Russian provacateurs - many of them have since realized it since the details of what happened and how this was all engineered have come out thanks to British investigative media. There ain't no way to resurrect this dead horse, Prime Minister and Conservatives. Give it up for dead, already. Geez.
14
Perhaps it's time to go back to the voters to reconsider the whole Brexit thing, this time with a bit more information on what it might mean to the country.
8
@AP18
What extra information they need? 2 years of negotiation gave the all catastrophe scenarios...
1
Where is David Cameron ???
I don't think that the Brexit vote is valid anymore.
1
To me, May's "plan" is basically an extension of time, with a nice promise that all problems will be fixed and the border with Ireland will never be touched ... while they continue to negotiate.
The only alternative left standing is a no-deal Brexit, which will be chaos for everyone. When the Commons has to make a final choice between them, perhaps May thinks her Tory opponents will be unable to accept responsibility for the clear, immediate damage that would follow from no-deal.
7
England played chicken with the E.U. and lost. Now all of the U.K. most lose face while at the same time, trying keep a stiff upper lip.
17
nd deal falls apart because EU insists on protecting its own border between Ireland and North Ireland.
1
I love and admire the British Isles. Throughout history, the English have always pushed forward a strong willed woman who can hit back as hard, if not harder, than any man. Boudica, the legendary warrior princess, who defeated the Romans. Various queens, most notably Queen Elizabeth I, who asserted British prominence in the World. Lately Queen Elizabeth II, for all the ridicule she recieves, has overseen the transformation of the British Empire from seeming collapse to what is now Inconspicuously the Commonwealth of Nations, still intact, albeit not run by the Brits. Maggie Thatcher!(with her Monty Python voice)....and now Theresa May. And the unspoken strong backbone of the London Accountants down by the Docks.....furiously calculating the odds and making the call on which way is the most profitabl for the UK.....looks like Brexit to me.
3
Yesterday a commentator said that May’s draft was the best there could be “under the circumstances”. If so, then change the circumstances! Call for a new vote on the EU in a move as audacious as cutting the Gordian knot with the simple explanation that neither MPs or the public knew then what they know now.
23
The insane referendum was not binding. Parliament should reject it and take the consequences. At this point, the majority of the public would applaud them.
64
@Andy Humm,
I think Parliament would risk civil unrest as a consequence.
It’s hard for most of us to say we are wrong and admit a mistake. Even harder I see for a proud, insular—geographically and psychologically—country. The UK survived WWII. Too bad if they kill themselves over a fight that never needed to be fought.
95
Great Britain survived WWII mostly on free aid, munitions, food and troops from America. Winston Churchill admitted that the happiest day in his life was when Japan bombed Pear Harbor. He knew then that Britain would survive.
1
Theresa May should stop holding the leaky egg basket that she was handed by Boris Johnson and David Cameron and Farage and resign as well. The British elite ruling class made this mess with their lies and misleading so it is they who should clean it up. The constant battering of Prime Minister May is becoming grotesque. And where is David Cameron by the way?
68
Theresa May seems like a decent person. However, as a politician, she reminds me of Chamberlain. Well-meaning and entirely ineffective. And Europe watches on in both horror and amusement as the English circus forges on in its self-destructive acrobatics.
19
The sun has set on the British Empire, and now its citizens are collectively switching the lights off. This is what xenophobia, nationalism and isolationism will beget. Will the US learn from this, or will it follow Britain into the abyss? (History does not suggest a hopeful answer). I am sure Jared Diamond is writing his next book: Apocalypse.
49
Go, Theresa May, Go. You may seem to stand alone, surrounded by the howling wolves of yesterday, ready to tear you apart as you move the world towards the 21st Century.....the latest defection only removes the dead weight.. Another bureaucrat, with an eye towards the old Status Quo and self-preservation, throws himself to the dogs. Next hurdle is to convince Ireland that its future lies with Brexit and NAFTA, the two entities that have made Ireland a financial, economic success in the early 21st Century.........dont backslide now.
1
@Wherever Hugo,
Umm, if you are referring to the Republic of Ireland, Brexit and NAFTA are not economic plusses. (Well, Brexit may end up being a plus if a large enough portion of multinationals leaving Britain set up shop around Dublin, Cork or Galway.
Putting hard borders back in Ireland breaks the Good Friday Accords and initiates a world of trouble.
The DUB in N. Ireland will not agree to any accord that treats them differently from the rest of the UK. They've made that explicit.
May might in fact "go" soon, but whoever becomes the new PM will inherit an extraordinarily difficult series of negotiations.
Your source of your apparent enthusiasm is a mystery.
1
The Brexit mess is more of a problem for the UK than Trump is for the US, and that’s saying something
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What a complete waste of time and energy for a lot of people. The UK papers and their screaming end of the world headlines. Raab tells off May. May tells off Raab. The EU tells both of them off. Nobody cares if the tunnels shut down, the planes don't fly, the banks move, and people lose their jobs.
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We know the incredibly close vote was affected by a Russian disinformation campaign. The Brexit vote is TAINTED, and needs to be scrapped and re-done, or dropped altogether. This is a Russian dagger aimed at the UK and the EU.
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@T
And aimed at the USA. Russia is breaking up the western world without firing a shot. Stock up on Vodka. We're going to need it.
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The original referendum was a terrible idea. People cast votes based on false promises. The day after the referendum passed major vocal proponents of Brexit confessed this. There is no way to negotiate Brexit into a good deal for the UK. A new referendum is the only path forward that offers a better future for the UK. Yes or no: "Should Berlin, rather than London, be the financial epicenter of Europe?"
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Britain should not leave. If anything this is totally different agreement than proposed during referendum so a new referendum would be needed. Plus, we know, most British people and those interested were not given the correct information during the last referendum. I say this as one legally international involved. In the end, Britain's voters need to decide first through democratic parliament discussions (with urgency for delays are doing no one any good).
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Several summers ago we spent 17 day in the Irish Republic. In part of that wonderful trip we ambled across the border with Northern Ireland at least 10 times. The border issue encapsulates the immense problems inherent in the UK leaving the EU. Trade and tourists need to see no border. But if the UK leaves the EU there must be a border or the transshipment of goods over the border in either direction becomes a smugglers dream. And trade issues are accompanied by political ones - what will be the psychological effects on Irish nationalists should UK border police and inspectors reappear? Brexit is and was a horrible idea.
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NYT: Is there anyone in Great Britain supporting May and this agreement?
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@Dr. Adjunct Theresa May's husband
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Now that the British more fully understand how damaging Brexit will be to their lives, their economy and their relationships with Europe and elsewhere, maybe there will be stronger calls for another referendum--this time without deceit from certain politicians.
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Who can't await fearless leader's tweet on this? Our self-described stable genius, not to steal the words from his thumbs, would doubtlessly have been able to negotiate a much better, but un-described mythical deal.
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When your president declared that he had told Mrs May what to do about Brexit but that she had not followed his advice, I thought to myself, 'Well, at least Teresa has got ONE thing right.'
p.
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It's a bad look for the UK to call the whole thing off, since it smacks of being anti-democratic. But in the long term it will be more damaging globally to let a democratic decision lead to the collapse of a nation's economy; authoritarians will be able to point to the supposed "failure of democracy" as a means to defend autocracy and illiberal government. Hold another referendum; the citizens of the UK know the score now and won't be swayed by UKIP conmen who have lied to them at every step.
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@Angry With evidence that the original vote was tampered with by the Russians, I see nothing anti-democratic about calling for a new vote that will almost certainly more accurately represent the will of the people.
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@Angry You're dead right on all matters of fact and politics here. But you're failing to take into account the nocive effect of the "British character".
If there was a second referendum, the hardcore factions on the wings would remain unswayed, but how would the central, "swing" vote go? A large portion would either not vote or would vote No (even if they did not essentially agree with that position or outcome) just because they would see a second referendum as some sort of insult from the authorities to the public.
You have no idea how vehemently the British react to the merest whiff of condescension or paternalism, or even to the simple, uncontroversial notion that some people know better than others. Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is a national creed. Take every Boston MA stereotype and multiply it by several hundred regional identities, and you will start to grasp how contrary and recalcitrant and divided the British Isles really are.
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U.K. needs to redo the Brexit referendum by mandating that all citizens have to vote in this important issue. It needs to be preceded by a month long official Education of the voters on all consequences of this decision with facts instead or political hyperbole. Requirement should be that at-least 90% of the voters need to cast a vote for it to be a valid referendum. This needs to be a Standard Operating procedure in all democracies in all major issue.
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@Shaker Cherukuri
Except that well, it is no longer a "democracy" if you require voters to vote.
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@Mary Crain So Australia is not a democracy?
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@Shaker Cherukuri
If democracy proceeds more with duress rather than will, it never be call democracy .
Voters voluntary participation makes a true -authentic democracy is democracy.
Mandating vote over voters is simply making democracy rot.
Democracy needs serious intellectual investment from voters , it is not a mere fill in the circle options.
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A public yes/no vote on an extremely complex issue the results of which will affect the country, the economy, the government etc. in too many ways to even fully anticipate.
Sounds like a good idea; what could possibly go wrong?
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The Russian's are very proud of themselves.
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Their stubbornness has helped the British in the past. Now it is hurting them.
Why can't they simply reconsider?
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@Marc . . For the same reason Trump supporters can't.
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Those of us who didn't want this in the first place would love for the rest of the country to reconsider now that it should be clear that Brexit can never work. Unfortunately the Brexiteers would rather destroy the economy before they admit they were wrong.
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This all sounds like an easily avoided, eminently preventable tragedy which was unavoidable and unpreventable.
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there needs to be another referendum so people can cast an informed vote vs. being swayed by the nationalistic diatribe which had zero economic grounding, Boris Johnson & Nigel Farage dished out last time around.
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Exactly, perhaps a new referendum would keep the Brits in the European Union.
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@nikhil
Aaron Banks is a Russian agent well versed in "active measures."
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Mr. Farage has stood seven times for Parliament and has never won a seat in Westminster. I once thought that the British made him an EMP (European Member of Parliament) in order to stick it to Brussels; I am now convinced that it was to send him far far away from their small island.
What will they do after March 2019, I wonder?
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Theresa May is being dragged kicking and screaming into complying with the will of the people and Brexit. As a result those in her cabinet who favor Brexit are rebelling at her attempts to delay it, or to water it down to such a degree that there is almost no Brexit. This is what happens when life long politicians believe they ignore the certainty of the people's vote.
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@paul Unfortunately, the will of the people in the case of Brexit was a slim majority who were sold a fantasy that could never be delivered. Promises of renewed sovereignty of British law were made by the same people who overruled UK election rules by injecting foreign money into the referendum. Irony at its finest.
But one could argue that this was inevitable from the moment David Cameron actually convinced himself that a referendum was actually a good idea to stop UKIP from poaching Tory voters.
Regardless, the will of the people who wanted no part of Brexit can't simply be ignored either. Especially when the "U" in "UK" is on the line.
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You do mean to say the will of the people by a bare margin, don't you? The concept that all political decisions are a zero sum game is a disaster and Britain is now living one. The retreat at Dunkirk in the end proved to be the biggest victory of WWII.
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@paul The vote for Brexit was about 3.85% greater than the no vote. It one thing for a legislator to win her office for a limited period of time by a simple majority. It is quite another to totally reverse the whole course and destiny of a country which has been going in one direction for 45 years (in the EU since 1973) by a simple majority vote. In the U.S. Constitution 67 votes in the Senate are required for a treaty, but a simple majority vote can approve a war. Nations should never go to war unless most people/legislators are in favor of the war, i.e., for some things simple majorities are not, fundamentally, enough. Now that the Brits have a much, much better idea of the trouble they are getting into, they can more intelligently weigh the benefits versus detriments of Brexit. They should re-vote. Even tho I believe that a 60% majority vote should be required for Brexit, I believe that a simple majority of voters would now vote "no."
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Theresa May is to be commended for her efforts in undertaking a thankless mandate, solely to fulfill the people's will reflected in the 2016 referendum.
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A "will" that reflects blatant lies like "Let's fund our NHS instead" that even hardline Brexiteers regret falling for? lol.
Me, I can't wait for the second reffer, and for this hideous heartless Tory regime to finally step aside and let Labour adults take over. Really, the only reasons the Tories even keep up this charade is in the hope that (a) they get their cut of the putin money, novichokery notwithstanding, and (b) their biggest threat (Corbyn) will just age out of PM contention.
Otherwise, not even the Tories are buying what the Tories are selling.
12
What a dramatic and refreshing difference with the US, where cabinet members virtually never quit, even when they think the president is pursuing terrible policies!
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@DSM14 Plenty of cabinet secretaries have left the Trump administration, e.g. Jeff Sessions, Michael Flynn, and so on and so forth. They just don't leave on principle because, well, they don't have any (your point, I suppose). Michael Cohn finally left on principle (not a cabinet member in our terms) because tariffs.
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@Wilton Traveler
I think Cohn left because he was only there to get the tax cut for billionaires. His job was done.
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@Wilton Traveler, Gary Cohn. But I got your meaning.
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