The EU stated they strike treaties with governments, not with people. Firing Theresa May will not change the offer on the table.
Poor UK, stuck between May and that poor man's version of a liberal Trump, Corbyn. As in the US this chaos was festered by Murdoch & minions and their xenophobic right-winged and privileged political class. Similarly, the right-wing bamboozle can be unraveled by the democratic process and like the US, conservatives don't like elections when in power. Now the the choice is clear, elections can provide the UK a clear verdict.
Blaming Theresa May for the mess is total nonsense.
Has it occurred to anyone that women seem always to be offered the top job when it gets too hot in the kitchen for men?
4
Now that May has made the best deal possible, it makes sense to let the people decide if it is good enough. Voters should be given the opportunity to decide, especially since it does not seem to please anyone. A referendum would offer three choices:
A clean Brexit with no deal
Acceptance of the May deal
Return to EU
It doesn't do the country any good to enter into a deal that has more enemies than supporters.
1
"Having taken office with the single goal of negotiating the withdrawal, she may not remain in power long enough to finish the job."
Single? Surely she had many aims. And maybe her priority aim has been to keep the people of the UK from falling apart politically and likely her second priority has been to find/forge a better relationship between the UK Tory Party and ...???
I guess after you decide to jump over the cliff, any reconsideration of the foolishness is impossible? Sounds pretty stupid.
1
Under contract law, any agreement or part of an agreement that is obtained by fraud is null and void. The vote to leave the EU was obtained by fraud, so at least a second referendum should be called.
4
I admire Ms May's fortitude in the face of an obviously impossible challenge. A bunch of loudmouths shattered an arrangement that had taken decades to develop, and she volunteered to pick up the pieces in the interest of her country. That her cabinet ministers and party colleagues abandon her, to lob criticisms without any responsibility to make Brexit work, is despicable.
5
When two humans divorce they can go their separate ways among nine billion other humans, but Brexit as divorce is a flawed metaphor.
Britain and Europe are more like twins born conjoined at the hip. They have to work out their differences, peacefully or not. When they wake up in the morning the other one will always be right there.
Brits thought they could go find a nicer continent to be with, say, North America. Now that relying on America turns out to be a bad idea there are not nine billion other continents to choose from.
1
I find the reaction to the Brexit negotiation to be a great hypocrisy to Mrs. May.
If I remember correctly, Mrs. May did not want to leave the EU, but because the citizenry voted to leave, she has, in good faith, negotiated on behalf of the citizens who wanted to leave.
May is one of those rare politicians who actually listened to what the voters wanted and put her own ideas aside. She has worked tirelessly for the voters, something we are not used to anymore.
Meanwhile the voters have found out that those who proposed to leave the EU did not layout the whole story and what would be lost if the Great Britain left the EU.
Shame on those in Parliament, especially Rees-Bogg, the very person who wanted to leave. He needs to remember that Great Britain s no longer the Empire it used to be. This means that they cannot call all the shots with the rest of Europe.
Rees-Boggs reminds me of Trump. Short sighted, mean, and self involved.
He needs to start looking at the world as it is, not how it was.
Kudos to Mrs. May for her bravery. I hope this is a hint of what our Congress will become with more women now serving.
6
@Jean, I can detect shades of Margaret
Thatcher in Mrs. May: "ladies are not
for turning, Rees-Mogg can turn if he
wants to". Fight on Mrs. May!
The Prime Minister has said more than once that "Brexit means Brexit". Because the deal she now has presented to the Commons contradicts that is the source of her problem. If she wants to survive a leadership challenge, perhaps she should scrap the plan and go with the no-deal (with the EU) Brexit, since that appears to be what the so-called 'Brexiteers' in her own party want. Then she should call another election, and force the critics in Labor to go on the record about what they would do, which would cause them to turn on themselves, as they have their own Euro-skeptics. But to try to go backwards on Brexit or have another referendum is a non democratic solution to the problem. The dye has been cast by the voters, and they must move forward.
2
There is no "good" way for Britain to exit the European Union, an idea that was idiotic from the start, based largely on xenophobia and presented fraudulently by its backers. Brexit is a self-inflicted wound, just as Donald Trump is in the U.S.
The only truly sensible course would be to admit that Brexit was a terrible mistake and abandon it. But those who made political careers out of it won't allow that to happen.
16
Adding insult to injury, the UK seems unable to reverse their stupidity. But claiming that there is a route to reverse the damage ignores a whole lot of facts.
But the looting and burning tendencies of the pro-fossil fossils of the conservative party make them unforgiveable. Aside from tanking their economy as they steal everything that is not bolted down to make themselves look pretty to the UK equivalent of our swampy TrumpPublicans bullies in charge, they are selling out most of what used to be good in their country.
Imposing fracking on a countryside that doesn't want it and will be irreparably harmed is not the way to go.
I don't see the way through for them, but all our proud commenters think they need only point out that time can be turned back to "win".
Our left is not as bad as our right, but this dictatorial sloganeering way of claiming other people don't exist and opposition need only be denounced to be defeated is wrong too. We too are in trouble.
There is only one key to survival: working together to solve problems. Standing on your dudgeon does not work.
3
Shame on David Cameron for ( feebly ) quitting when the democratic vote went against him.
History will not be kind to him.
5
Given the understandable reluctance of the Europeans to be at all helpful in the secession process, it would have been better for May to come back to Britain saying that because a reasonable deal could not be concluded it is only fair to ask the people whether withdrawal is still wanted. Hopefully, this time Britons would go to the polls and consign the stupid idea of Brexit to history’s dustbin.
5
The UK needs to admit Brexit is a mistake, hold a second referendum, and call the whole thing off. How many times can a people shoot themselves in the foot. I lay this blame squarely at the feet of the British people who voted Leave, not Theresa May. They voted for something they did not understand based on lies, fear, and scaremongering. Admit your error, and fix the mistake.
22
There will be a second vote. They is absolutely no way to avoid it. Ms. May will not he PM much longer. She should accept this, fall on her sword, and call for a public vote on her plan. That would doom her within her highly dysfunctional Conservative Party, but she would in time be recognized as a national savior.
And that's a whole lot better than fighting for her current rotten, thankless job a few more months.
6
This is too bizarre for an otherwise thoughtful country. If there was a referendum on going to war in a time of war hysteria, then it was found out that the triggering news was wrong, would war be inevitable still? Of course not.
When the Russian-backed anti-EU hysteria was at peak the vote was emotional, not completely rational. Why not re-examine a bad call with the light of calmer and better news?
8
@Ed M
That can and should be done with a second Referendum abd momentum is gaining for that outcome, Issues can and should surround what question(s) in the second onw will be heathy for the polity of all affected. Perhaps it would be best to call those questions by the name referenda; that would cause more people to think and feel more deeply.
Some commentators appear to be in awe at Mrs. May‘s „leadership“...I‘d rather subscribe to the following statement by Rees Mogg: „As what my right honorable friend says, and what my right honorable friend does, no longer match, should I not write to my right honorable friend, the member for Altrincham and Sale West?” May has hoodwinked her party, her cabinet members and worst, the British People, since day one. Kicking the can down the road for now more than 2 years and then declaring, in front of a disastrous deal, „there is only one way, my way“, cannot be characterized as good leadership but rather as an excessive dose of hubris. „Her deal“ keeps the UK in the common market probably indefinitely with no more wiggle room than ante Brexit. These tactics though, have served her well, as politicians nowadays are generally not held responsible for procrastinating. Now she’s going to drop the doomed baby in the MP‘s laps and let them carry all the opprobrium for whatever decision they take for or against „the deal“. And finally, in my view, she fits well within the realm of the Royal Family, all privilege, no substance.
2
Modest proposal: end a temporary Northern Ireland "backstop" for finalizing terms regarding the terms of Brexitwith a mandatory referendum, restricted to NI voters, posing three choices 1) continue in the UK, potentially reinstating the hard border with Ireland; 2) contnue as a special UK economic zone with full EU compliance and rights, setting customs and immigration checks at other UK ports of entry Over the long run, NI, Scotland and even Greater London are likely to end up with special status inside the EU, with relaxed mobility and trade arrangements, while Merry Old England cuts its own patch to racially purity. Over the longer run, religious fanatics will all die, and NI will join the Republic on its own initiative.
3
For the longest time I have heard no end of disparagement of Mrs May. And I think it is powerfully apparent that Brexit was just an awful idea fraught with irreconcilable conflicts sold with the hidden assistance of outside forces having every interest in hurting Britain. Nevertheless I find Mrs may to be a leader of quite outstanding ability, shrewdness, courage and persistence and I would not bet against her. I only wish she were leading the charge against Brexit.
3
@Charles,
More often than not women are offered the top job when it gets too hot in the kitchen for men.
4
The casual and ambivalent approach to the tricky issue of "Brexit" that the British PM Theresa May has taken is proving her undoing as to be seen in withering criticisms and resignations in her party and the government. She is left with no option but to face the unpleasant consequences of the hurriedly reached Brexit decision unlikely to be minimised by her muddle-through deal nor by any Brexit deal. The only solution could be asking for a new referendum which again carries its own costs. The point is one can't have a cake and eat it too. Brexit referendum was a great folly that the British people will regret for ever. It was indeed UK's association with the EU that allowed it to punch above its weight in the world affairs, which will no longer be the case now.
6
The solution is simple. Greater London, Scotland and Northern Ireland should split from Britain, form a separate State and join the EU.
Britain retains Wales the Queen and the Falkland Islands.
4
So this means that the £350 M a week to be injected to the British coffers is a unicorn?
As in those who voted for Brexit were conned by the members of the Parliament who campaigned for it?
“I’m shocked! Shocked, I tells ya!”
8
Theresa May assumed power when male dominant English politics ( Cameron, Farage, Boris ) literally wreck to ship on the rock.
May is trying her best but with brexit hull ripped open so wide no way this ship floats again in Brexit direction
8
I've always wondered why the UK got in to the EU to start with. May didn't single handedly get the Brits into this EU mess but it looks like she is solely responsible for extracting them from this ever expanding overreaching bureaucracy
4
"It was not supposed to be a laugh line."
'Didn't expect that reaction but that's ok."
3
Why doesn't Theresa May call on her best buddy Donald Trump to tweet and speak his support for Brexit and her?
Or maybe Terry can ask Donnie to ask Vlad Putin to send some of her foes to hospitals, mental institutions, prisons, urns and coffins?
Perhaps we will have to look for the last embers of the British Empire on Masterpiece Theater. And if Vladimir Putin has his way the American Empire is destined for a similar fate.
Making Russia great is Putin's ultimate winning plan. Breaking up the EU one nation at a time coupled with the division of America into a cold civil war.
Coupled with America becoming the enemy of its friends and a friend of its enemies is a superpower supernova catastrophe self -immolation that will leave a black hole that used to be called America.
MAGA!
10
@Blackmamba
Sounds about right!
Brexit should never have been allowed to go up for a referendum. The debate about pros and cons were not subject to real cross examination but merely political slogans that now are known to be false.
8
In an election Ms. May called she lost her parliamentary majority and fell into the hands of the Protestant fringe party, the Democratic Unionists, whose only support is among the Protestants in Ulster. They campaigned nowhere else. They fear, in their bigotry, a merger with the Catholic south. They will vote for a hard exit for fear of betraying their bigoted voters. This a clear case of the tail wagging the dog.
4
It is always so easy to sit back and criticize, which people unfailingly love to do.
3
NYT commentators need to remember the EU is essentially a protectionist bloc, with economic policy driven by hard right monetarists who driven youth unemployment sky high. Apart from that yes very progressive..
1
The E. U. Dream of a United Europe has become a monstrosity of faceless, self-serving bureaucrats who are worse than the Olde Soviet Comintern of yesteryear! Better for Britain to take their lumps now and get out of that sinking ship of state(lessness)..
2
Well, its time for the likes of Boris Johnson or one of the other die-hard Brexiters to take charge instead of tossing firebombs from the sidelines. UK needs to feel the impact of full throated nationalism and our citizens must witness it on this side of the pond.
17
@DeeKay Exactly. The Brits made their bed when they voted to leave. This is the reality of lying in it, not those silly pie-in-the-sky promises from Johnson, etc which they bought into. A hard Brexit will be a learning experience.
8
The reactions to this Brexit Deal are hardly surprising. Did Britain and the Brexiteers really think they'd get a good deal or at least a coherent deal? I feel somewhat terrible for Theresa May for being messenger of this predictably bad news.
But what were they thinking? The EU Member States have been growing more interconnected and integrated over the last 60+ years. Just trying to get untangled from all the European legislation (100,000+ primary, secondary laws, acts and rules), is not something one can undo within 2 years.
Just imagine New York or California leaving the US and creating some sort of cooperation treaty within 24 months. Simply idiotic.
A lot of people in the UK seem to live in the past and think that they can return to their Empire and glorious Rule Britannia once out of the EU. The very reason for the relative stability (Good Friday Accord) and economic wealth (London the financial capital of the EU) is precisely because of their membership to the EU. Once the UK is out, they won't have the economic or political clout of the EU behind them anymore.
43
@Laura
Very well stated. This is the result of the simplistic take-it-or-leave-it thinking typical of the extreme right.
This is what happens to a nation when the elites think they know better than those they are meant to represent. The people voted for Brexit, and since then...
Having decided to Brexit, you don't then go to the group from who you are exiting and ASK them. Can you imagine if rather than declare our independence from England, we had gone and asked them if it would be ok, and sure we will continue paying taxes to you, and... No! it doesn't work that way.
The UK simply needs to declare its independence from the EU and reassert it own sovereignty out of respect for the will of the people. I would suggest they also put in place a constitution, but they're not that type of people (at the moment).
Has anyone here actually studied the proposals for Ireland? They want to Brexit and the EU are NOT ALLOWING them to put a hard border in place in Ireland. Therefore, given free movement within the EU, anyone in Europe will be able to enter UK through Ireland WITHOUT BEING STOPPED AT A BORDER.
The real trouble is, none of the elites, none of the elected, wanted Brexit, and they have been trying to overturn the will of the people since the vote was cast.
Shame on them!
8
Well, it doesn’t sound like you fully understand the consequences of a hard Brexit nor appreciate the history of the union. First and foremost, the UK wasn’t forced to join the EEC in the 70’s; it was a choice based on self interest. Their calculation was that once inside, they would steer the union to mainly a free trade zone. But EU’s founding fathers objectives were not simlpy commercial; from the get go they wanted a political union to avoid future conflicts. Which by the way was mission accomplished. The problem with the UK membership was always a tendency to “pick and chose” hence a staunch opposition by leaders like Charles de Gaulle for the UK to join in the first place. Today EU is UK’s largest commercial and strategic partner. The Irish question is paramount primarily to UK’s own security (remember the IRA?). A better integrated Northern Ireland with its southern neighbor (which is a full EU member) guaratees the fragile balance. Where are the diehard brexiters (Farage, Johnson, et al.) when you need them to lead? They’re hiding or retired because they know the consequences of the situation they helped create. Theresa May is a Patriot who’s trying to get the most of a very bad hand.
7
@Rob Campbell GB can't survive without low cost exports to the EU, and the EU won't let them stay in the custom's union without agreeing to the document you're whining about.
Further, Ireland isn't going to leave the EU, as it is a separate country, and the entire Good Friday agreement depends upon an open border between Ireland and Norther Ireland.
Finally, I'd be a little surprised if Scotland stays in GB if GB really negotiates a hard Brexit.
You can whine as much as you like about "elites" but the "people" didn't do their homework. There's no way to square this circle. A hard Brexit is always possible, but it will severely damage the British economy, and likely break Scotland and Northern Ireland out of GB, turning Britain back into "Little England."
9
@Rob Campbell Amongst all the commentators on this story you actually seem to have a grasp on the situation! Well done.
People voted for this. US as possibly the world’s finest democracy should understand this.
Credit to Mrs May for having a go at giving UK freedom from EU. Whatever the outcome she has at least tried
1
Britain has reached a new worst-case scenario on Brexit
In a few months...
U.S. has reached a new worst-case scenario on far right extremism
Anglo-Saxons are reaping what they sowed, could be one interpretation. Britain has reached a new worst-case scenario on Brexit
In a few months....
U.S. has reached a new worst-case scenario on far right extremism
Anglo-Saxons are reaping what they sowed, could be one interpretation. Another : they are using Russia’s playbook against one another without the faintest clue.
1
It is quite easy for the facile right-wing nationalists in UK and elsewhere to point out the problems...but it is another matter to propose and execute solutions in the real world.
Brexit is a self-inflicted wound which I fear has spread the political equivalent of sepsis in the UK body politic and the 18th century Tories have of course not acknowledged the existence of antibiotics.
17
@Brian Barrett
Ha! It's up to the British to fix the problems these immigrants have brought into England. Exactly. It's called Brexit!
1
Leaving Brexit aside for a moment, PM Theresa May has set an example of leadership, good behavior and dignity under fire that sets an example for other leaders worldwide. She has not turned to vicious and rude personal attacks, lies and populist posturing.
Whether you agree or not with her positions, PM May, and Germany's Angela Merkel, set the standard of good leadership that others should follow.
33
@Henry Whitney
Until recently, of course, that standard of behavior was THE standard, violated only by a few thugs with little influence on the world scene.
6
Democracy risks showing its weaknesses when it delegates serious decisions to the majority of the population, which is generally ignorant, emotional, and easily manipulated. Brexit is an excellent illustration.
All modern democracies are facing a crisis. It is essential to build effective solutions - better education for all, reigning in the social media, respect for facts and reason, etc. This issue is a matter of life and death for survival of democracy.
Notably, all previous historical attempts at democracy starting from ancient Greece to the Weimar Republic have failed.
6
@Alexander K.
"All modern democracies are facing a crisis".
Really! Some are facing challenges, maybe. Canada seems to be doing Ok, New Zealand too, Australia, well another PM has been chopped and there will be a new government next year, but still muddling along. Japan S. Korea, Tiawan, Malaysia, even Indonesia seem all to be on the democracy ship. Some european countries have had significant increases in support for far-right parties, just like the US. Is this a long term trend? To early to say either way for me.
What are you doing to support democracy in the US?
@Alexander K.
That's exactly why we have Representative government. Democracy gives legitimacy to our representatives to come to consensus and govern. In a Parliamentary system when the government can't govern there should be a new election not a referendum.
1
I don't understand May. She was originally opposed to Brexit but now having become PM she has become a dogged proponent as the entire concept has steadily been revealed as threadbare. The original proponents like Nigel Farage long ago fled and had no idea how to make it work. Irish border - never thought about it.
Would the rest of the EU now even want the UK as a member given its' problem child status?
12
@Jack - Theresa May's decision to carry out the will of the people is exceptional leadership. I cannot even imagine how the NI border chaos will be resolved, but this PM is resolved to uphold the outcome of an increasingly complicated national referendum. That's her job and now it's her nation's citizenry's job to forge ahead with a choice they made freely. Elections have consequences and I admire May's backbone despite brutal personal adversity, something sorely lacking here in the US where blame is used as a weapon by many of our national leaders.
12
@Jenny - There is much to admire about May including her resoluteness, fidelity and sense of duty.
Great leadership, though, can mean leading people in a direction they may not want go or changing direction as new facts emerge. Everyone on the bus may have voted to go in a particular direction, but you want a driver who will stop if the bridge ahead is out.
9
Then why not can the Brexit thing and rejoin Europe? There seems to be a general consensus in Europe that the EU might need a mid-course correction. Britain should be part of that conversation.
Europe's growing pains seem, from the US side at least, to be similar to the pains we in the US have all the time. What activities and decisions are best left to localities and private interests, and what should be managed by the EU as a whole.
Europe could have made a more coordinated response to the 2008 financial crisis, for example. Civil and human rights could be guaranteed by the EU, not left to the whim of local politicians. There could be more local input into the management and exploitation of fisheries. It seems that everybody is unhappy over how immigration is being handled. And Europe's defense - where every locality offers its own army - is not much different from what it was in the Middle Ages, when each lord offered his own band of knights to the king.
5
It seems many if not most Brits are experiencing buyers' remorse and now realize the Brexit vote only felt good for 10 minutes and the actual separation will be a disaster.
I recall news stories at the time that some people had no idea what an actual Brexit would entail before they voted.
I doubt May would allow a do over vote at this point but it seems having another vote might be the best course of action with a more informed electorate. The result may be very different.
24
@marian, wrong! The will of the people was made known, the government and elites disagreed with the decision, this is the result...
It's not complicated.
4
@V Nagarajan. Sometimes you have to break a bone for it to heal correctly. What the Brits are lacking, is faith in their own democracy, and eh... let's call it, the right leader at the right time.
1
It seems that those Brexiter Tories who are getting their knickers in a knot over the prospect of not being able to momentarily enjoy the fresh air that a "clean" exit from the EU could provide in the few seconds before the reality of what they have done comes crashing home, are not lining up to lead this messy affair enjoying rather swatting away at the PM as if she was a piñata.
If there was any doubt about the Monty Python quality of the Brexiters one has only to look at their spiritual leader, The Right Honorable Member From the 18th Century, Mr. Rees-Mogg, a man born to be a backbencher who opposes abortion, gay rights and the industrial revolution.
The fact is that PM May seems to be the only one who has the pluck to press on with the unpleasant task of not only disengaging Britain from economic reality but also tasked with regularly changing the diapers of Tory party members. Certainly The Most Noble Order of the Garter would be in order here.
Rather than nobly sustaining the gradual garroting her fellow party members are imposing I suggest she resort to a democratic gesture in response and call a snap election.
At the moment it seems Labor might very well benefit from an election but then do they really want to finish the negotiations with the EU and then get blamed for their failure? And as for the Tories their resulting hysterics would be a joy to watch.
Go for it Theresa.
13
@GerardM Er, she called the snap election last year and lost her party's majority. Another disaster.
1
Hope others who have the inclination, to one day get out of German/Brussels rule, are taking notes. Thank the good Lord the brits have the pound.
3
An extremely weak Leader who hasn’t twigged that the EU doesn’t want a deal, and sized her up as desperate. Even Trumps advice is sound. One must be ready to walk and see BMW Mercedes, French wine makers cosmetic Italian food Dutch dairy CEOs watch as their Performance bonuses go up in smoke as thier sales plummet 20%
3
@Dac
Don't buy Mercedes -BMW if you do not want , I have an income easily purchase those cars I drive Honda.
Don't drink French-Italian Spanish Wine, gobble up ale .
As if EU force feeding UK Citizens like pate goose.
In USA we are not in Eu, but I have to accept best food comes from EU.
Your revenge about to do something and break apart nations is not wise and only playing in the hands of Putin like leaders.
Europe did every human mistake before and worse than every nation on this planet. that ended in 1945. Since 1945 EU is steadily become human civilization shining city while USA abdicating.
World needs EU, EU needs UK. UK wisdom at the end what prepared todays EU.
2
Leaders can still lead. PM May said it herself in announcing that her cabinet approved 500 plus page “deal”- 3rd option: no Brexit. She can credibly say she gave it her all to keep border in Ireland fluid while getting as much out of EU as possible. But, she’s now seen reaction from Parliament and recent polling, and it’s time to stop this foolishness. Always time to negotiate within EU.
She will probably survive because there is no alternative that is acceptable to a solid bloc of Conservative MP's. And it's not impossible she'll get this through the commons for much the same reason. The alternative of crashing out of the EU without a deal would be disastrous for Britain.
2
And so the world slowly(?) unravels.
The Euro-centric world is no longer.
Europe descends into what amounts to right-wing, self destructive city states.
How far behind is the US?
5
This is what voting for “nationalism” looks like.
7
of course it's not going smoothly. Not only do more Brits not want it than do, but most politicians know it will be a disaster. They're trying to slow impending doom.
25
The problem with governments today is nobody wants to say the bad news. Its Brexit in the UK and health care here. Leaders and politicians need to do what's best for the country as a whole and over the long term even if it hurts some people. Nobody wants to do that, instead they purpose these convoluted plans that try to satisfy everyone.
5
Right wing nationalists are about to destroy Britain. I think many of the victimized will want to come here as immigrants to escape the economic devastation. We should welcome them with open arms as we do all people fleeing various types of oppression.
4
@Yuri Pelham In the age of Trump, I see a problem. It's far safer to cross the channel.
5
@Roger Holmquist
Agree entirely. I was sardonic in pointing out that maybe we are not so accommodating to those fleeing oppression..... unless they are white.
Is Canada safe?
My Mom's Dad, born in 1893, was rounded up, put on a troop ship and sent to France to fight the Germans. He got out alive, fortunately, when millions perished. This was of course WW1. When the Europeans stop trading with each other, that's when the shooting starts. Does one have to be a professor of history to see how badly nationalism works out for everyone? When this Brexit business plays out and people start shouting and pointing fingers, please don't call on my American family to return to Europe to help sort this out. Did everyone there take a sick day or skip school when that tragedy, known as European history, was taught? Do the words "Somme" and "Gallipoli" have any meaning for contemporary Brits? Good luck...you're going to need it.
67
@Economy Biscuits: Almost every family with British ancestry dating more than 100 years has grandfathers and great grandfathers that fought in WW1. Armistice/Remembrance Day is universally and solemnly observed. Many people wear poppies each November. I think that suggesting that Britons have forgotten WW1 is a mistaken explanation of why 52% of them voted for Brexit. Britain faced an even more existential threat in WW2, but that did not result in the UK becoming a founding member of the Common Market in the 1960s. I don't think most Britons see a connection between EU membership and the threat of an intra-European war. They do however see a lack of control over who can reside and work in the UK as an internal threat to long term stability.
9
Indeed the EU forgets the debt it owes to dead British.
3
And they all forget that WW1 was an imperial war, fought by empires for the purpose of empire. Germany was not the evil aggressor any more than Russia, England, or France. The British soldiers died for nothing, same as the German soldiers.
14
Whether or not a vote of no confidence occurs, this withdrawal agreement seems doomed to fail in Parliament, and the European Commission is unlikely to re-negotiate a new one. At that point (if not before), I expect Mrs. May will exit, and the Tories will have to choose a new leader.
Within the Conservative Party, there are hard Brexiteers, soft Brexiteers, and Remainers. From whichever group a new leader is chosen, he or she will not have the broad support of this fractious party, nor of the public.
There are increasing calls for a second referendum, but this would be criticized as an unfair “do-over” by a substantial fraction of the population.
A true and acceptable referendum, however, would be for a leader to call a new election. Given the looming exit deadline (March 29), this would require a UK/EU agreement to maintain the current custom union/single market/regulatory status pending a new vote. To be taken seriously, the various party candidates (even Jeremy Corbyn) would have to clearly state their Brexit/Remain positions, and the election would demonstrate the people’s preference - now, after 2.5 years of reconsideration of the implications of any outcome.
13
I feel for Ms May. The simple truth is that this deal is the best that could be achieved. It is also considerably worse than continued EU-membership.
Ms May has done the best she could. Perhaps she ought to consider asking the public to choose between these three options (this deal, no deal or staying in the EU).
Wherever the UK goes from here, I do tire of the blame game from the Brexiteers. There has been no acknowledgement (let alone any excuses!) for the false promises made 2.5 years ago and even today anything disagreeable is always someone else's fault. Ms May is "incompetent", the EU is "dishonest", remainers are "saboteurs". What a vile way to approach the world. Shame on you.
97
@Erik
I only feel sorry for May because she is allowing herself to be used in a shameless fight for power. Boris Johnson favored Brexit because he thought it would lose and give him a path to become Prime Minister. When Brexit unexpectedly won with the help of a Russia funded disinformation campaign the boys let May become Prime Minister because they did not want to be tarnished by taking on the impossible task of negotiating a Brexit deal that would be acceptable to a majority in Parliament. In the mean time the boys have cynically done everything to undermine her as Britain slips toward an economic catastrophe. The only sensible strategy for May is to go to another Brexit vote to choose either the deal she was able to make or no Brexit as an alternative. That would force the opportunists Brexiteers who are willing to risk hard Brexit for political gain into a corner. While they could rant about wanting a hard Brexit their efforts would be to no avail. While it would cost May her job she would go down in history for avoiding the economic catastrophe of a hard Brexit.
16
I feel for the PM, but let us not forget that this whole mess was the work of David Cameron, and it is he who should wear the mantle of Worst British PM Since Chamberlin.
Who in their right mind would ever have allowed the outcome of the Brexit vote to hinge on a simple majority? When Québec was looking to leave Canada that vote had to clear a 60% majority to pass; it failed.
And then there is the mountain of lies propagated by the Trump admiring Brexiteers like Boris Johnson, Farage, etc....
Their work has now started the era of Little Britain. In America, Donald Trump is working mightily to achieve the same outcome for the US.
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@D Priest
I get your point, but why 60%? Why not 70 or 80 or 100%? Elective government is often messy (remember Churchill’s quote on democracy.)
But even if one can make a valid point that some things are of such import that simple majority should be higher than a mere 50% - and those should be few and far between - it’s done, right or wrong, and needs to proceed as the people demanded.
@George S
As a clarification, we are unable to determine what “...the people demanded.”. We know what 52% of those who made the effort to vote wanted. The vote represents the majority of a minority of the population (registered voters).
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@D Priest
Just to clarify with regard to the Quebec comparison, at the time of the 1995 referendum there was no clear guidance on what would be required, and it was in fact widely assumed that a simple majority would suffice. (Very) fortunately, the 'remain' side prevailed 50.58% to 49.42%.
It was only after the referendum that the Clarity Act was passed by the Canadian Parliament, mandating that in any future referendum a 'clear majority' would be required, but still not spelling out precisely what this would entail.
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I'm not British, nor have any British loyalty. Singapore was once a colony of the UK before being rudely into independence 53 years ago. Till today, our size and open immigration borders, make us think and rethink what constitutes a country and who constitutes its people.
There is no easy way to define a what constitutes a common identity of people, and every attempt to define it, has been subjected to recalcitrant exceptions. This includes, race (by extension genes), culture, ideology, religion and even geography. Rather than attempt to define identity through these parameters, a utilitarian approach might be helpful. That would be: How much would a person be willing to sacrifice his resources for another.
This would be a relevant approach for Brexit, beyond the sentimentalism of familiarity and geographic proximity. Bluntly put will the British people be willing to say sponsor Greece and Spain's economic recovery at their expense. If they are, then objectively, a case might be made for common identity and sense of destiny amongst these groups of people. A recent example of such mutual willingness of sacrifice and trust would be the unification of Germany after the fall of the Berlin wall.
If on the other hand, they aren't, then real questions of loyalty must be addressed openly and realistically.
This applies even if UK doesn't use the Euro currency. The tension of enjoying the policy benefits yet not partaking in the monetary sacrifices causes unsustainable friction.
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I was on an international flight and have been able to watch the BBC coverage of today’s events live, while in the air. Theresa May has come across as non-partisan, determined and sincere, committed to a good outcome for the nation. Despite giving it her all, she has been met with harsh criticism by many of her so-called allies in the Conservative party. In fact, by and large everyone has been unsparing in their criticism. Could any of them done a better job? They all seem to think they have all the answers from their safe positions as bystanders.
What a thankless task they have handed to her.
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@David Baldwin Well, she accepted the job, right?
Sometimes you should say no to certain job offerings...
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@David Baldwin A thankless task that has resulted in an unconscionable waste of time and money, for a question too complicated to have been asked via referendum in the first place, much less one that didn't require a supermajority.
David Cameron couldn't/didn't see it through because he knew this was more than a thankless task -- it's an impossible one. The UK should stay and help make the EU a better institution, not take its (cricket) bat and ball and go home.......
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@David Baldwin. She wanted the job. Why?
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