As the Times itself has noted, Sears Roebuck put the town general store out of business. It's ridiculous to pin all the blame on the Internet on one website. This retail dislocation has taken place over thousands of retail sites — and was inevitable.
I buy on Amazon and I'm OK with the location and even the sweeteners, so I'm off the hook.
Substitute Walmart for Amazon, and small towns for New York city, and I would say you've got the idea.
3
Amazon saves me money (and reviews are useful most of the time) saves = protection from greed run rampant. What is an acceptable markup and what is a greedy markup? Why should parts cost three times the price of the car or bicycle when I am supplying the labor? Why aren’t things fixable? ( never buy another Toro again)! And why do executives get paid like they won the lottery ?
yet the last four at GE ran it into ground and it’s stock hasn’t hit bottom yet.
The billions in subsidies giving to Amazon will be mitigated by the tens of billions of dollars saved if Amazon can expand into and demolish the Queensbridge housing complex. Think of the money saved on Medicaid, Social Security disability, welfare etc.
1
There's so much wrong (and right, but you don't know it) here. How about lower all tax rates so businesses get the same advantage as Amazon is being given. Please stop looking down your nose at Amazon jobs. When you use the word elite do you understand how terrible you sound? I could go on...
2
Those abatements and tax incentives being provided, and to a corporation which beyond a shadow of a doubt does NOT need them, represent costs that will have to be covered somehow. Who, do you think, is going to pay for 'em, eh?
John~
American Net'Zen
It doesn't make a speck of difference in the scheme of things I realize, but I refuse to shop at Amazon or use their services in any way. Dropped my WaPo subscription when Bezos bought it, and now will forego the pleasure of shopping at Whole Foods when I next visit Salt Lake City - I'll scale down and shop at Trader Joe's.
Bezos may be a very nice man for all I know, but as the richest man in the whole world he just owns too dang much. I think at one time we called that a monopoly.
7
This discussion makes me profoundly sad. While we debate the impacts of Amazon’s move on New York and Arlington, and the gutlessness of politicians in reeling it in, this company is hastening the destruction of our planet. The unbridled consumption Amazin fuels to maintain its existence will be the death of us all.
6
It's a bad deal for regular NYers. We've seen this before and it hasn't changed. Dump and co received millions in subsidies and yet they discriminated in housing. Amazon will bring money to the moneyed and life will continue to deteriorate for the average person.
5
If you don’t want to shop at Amazon, don’t. It’s easy to survive without them. So I don’t get to watch certain TV shows or movies available only on Prime. So what? I’ll live. Meanwhile, I prefer to carry my groceries home from businesses in my neighborhood than employ local folks.
3
This morning, I was faced with an ethical dilemma: Is it okay to use electricity, but not want to live across the street from a coal plant? If I use my toilet but advocate for wastewater treatment plants to be placed on the outskirts of town, am I a hypocrite?
Fortunately, it was a short-lived crisis, because those questions are ridiculous. Amazon is a greedy company with a terrible work ethic. People tolerate it because they are also greedy and lazy, and Amazon has low prices and free delivery. That doesn't mean they want Amazon's lack of ethics destroying their cities too.
15
Forget about the Queensbridge houses. What about the Queensboro Bridge (aka 59th st. bridge)? Will Amazon's fleet of private buses shuttling its employees from Queens to Manhattan add to the already horrible conditions for those of us with the misfortune to live near the Manhattan side of the bridge (and by "near" I mean anything within a mile)? Endless congestion, blocked intersections, pedestrians being run over in crosswalks, nonstop honking, etc.
9
@ellienyc- no one should forget about the Queensbridge houses or any other house or apartment building within Queens. With a host of other things , the bridge and housing are included in the debate. The smart way with regards to development as most intelligent urban planers say, is to put infrastructure in first that will support the development(s) in the long term. this wasn't done and Cuomo and De Blasio were "Blinded by the headlights" of Bezo's mega-vehicle to have done the proper analysis and planning. Their greedy big egos got the better of them. they purposely did an end around those institutions that could have slowed or stopped their deal with Amazon. Now, those in the middle class and working poor in Queens will suffer and eventually have to move. A crime in itself.
4
@lou andrews Personally, I would happily move if either Amazon or DeBlasio paid me enough. In the meantime, I suppose the nearness of the Amazon site increases the value of my Manhattan apt. as a sublet or airbnb. I would happily spend as much of the year elsewhere as my rent stabilized lease permits -- whether it goes to an Amazon hipster or a Queens family doesn't matter to me.
It is certainly fair to question the wisdom of New York's leadership with respect to its largesse towards Amazon.
Public sector subsidizing of private industry is nothing new, but handing out taxpayer money so generously without giving the public a clear line of sight to the cost surely must rank among the largest conversion ever of public funds for the benefit of a single private entity.
Job creation is a good thing, and no doubt Amazon will bring employment opportunities and something of an economic boost to New York, or at least part of it. Nonetheless, it is entirely reasonable that at a time when the ability to deliver public services is challenged, squandering New York's limited resources for the sake of what will primarily be high paying jobs seems to be something of a cold shoulder to the people who need jobs the most.
Amazon will do little for them, and will likely prove costly to the very people who need help the most. When the next economic downturn occurs, with state and local budgets being challenged once again as tax receipts fall, we may look back on this episode of a well-heeled private company picking the public's pockets as an exceedingly costly Amazon.con.
13
By all the complaining going on you think a deal was struck with a toxic manufacturer who would re-pollute the East River with mercury and PCP.
Remember well the days of going to LIC only to dine at the LIC Crabhouse on Damm Street and leaving before eight and the crime came out. The City Council that can take a race horse and turn it into a Camel with their partisan bickering.
NYC enhancing its attractiveness with Tech will balance out dependency on Financial sector jobs that have held this city hostage like S.S. Steel held Pittsburgh. This city has had decades of neglect to it's infrastructure plain and quite simply its Operating budget needs to be decreased and Capital Budget increased to do this.
A City Council voting more taxes is not an answer the residents already highly taxed remember Council wanting to solve the grocery plastic bag issue with a regressive five cent tax? More Revenue to do more civic projects will come by attracting people and business in new fields and growing fields. I remember in the mid eighties when J C Penny decamped Manhattan for Plano Tx. Many employees with too many years in had no choice but to "get along little doggie" to tumble weed country enjoying their last pastrami sandwich at Carnegie Deli wondering what in line dancing was. No this is better much better.
20
You would be hard pressed to find any Seattleite that would say that Amazon's descent upon Seattle has made the city better (I'm talking regular Seattle citizens, not the local politicians that do Amazon's bidding).
Here's a snapshot of what Seattle is like now:
Completely, utterly, TOTALLY nonexistent affordable housing; a homelessness problem that will soon be on par with, or surpass, San Francisco's; daily twenty-five mile backups in each direction in and out of Seattle that last hours upon hours on end; a gentrification of Seattle to the extent that the Amazon tech workers never even come out of bubbles they work in to see how their business actually impacts the neighborhoods they've taken over; politicians that are so desperate to say they 'created jobs' that they make sweetheart deals with Amazon that, in the end, ensures that that Amazon's interests are prioritized and not the City of Seattle's; ever-increasing divides between the have's and the have not's (which Amazon's charity donations and 'resume workshops' are not solutions for), and worst of all, the knowledge that this is the new normal. The city can never go back to what it was.
I'm not against Amazon. There are many things about the company that are great.
But what cities have to realize is, Amazon puts itself and its profits first. After all, it's a business and that's what businesses do. If you're okay with that, invite them in to your city. But talk to the Seattleites first to see what happens next.
20
@Josa- a city council dominated by Democrats. At the core both political parties are one, used , manupilated held hostage to those who are wealthy. New York- we are seing the same repeat, though the pols there always were corrupt. De Blasio especially, a joke of a progressive.
If I move back to NYC will the government give me tax breaks? How about if I don't need them? I thought not. This is nothing but corporate welfare.
3
"The average salary for jobs at the new Amazon headquarters will be $150,000, the company has said. In Indianapolis it would go quite far; in New York City, that wouldn’t disqualify you for a housing subsidy."
The median household income in NYC is $50k to $70k (depending on the borough you live in). By the standards of most of us mortals, $150k is a good salary.
5
Far better than the salary I earned as a schoolteacher. But then, I started out with about $9,000 a year in 1978.
@SRF It is indeed a very good salary but it isn't so good that it would shield you from the pain of the city's astonishingly high housing costs. You can still qualify for subsidized, "affordable" housing in that range, depending on your family size.
1
If we believe the Governor and mayor, this is a good deal on the return on investment numbers. Still, I can't get over feeling there's a cultural disconnect. NYC has famously adopted and embraced cultures from all over the world. My gut tells me the Amazon culture of ruthless and growing corporate domination leading toward a monochromatic world is one the city would be better off not adopting. It is the antithesis of what New York City is.
For a company that has transformed our marketplace though innovation and visionary decision-making, I feel that the choice of NYC and VA (essentially Washington D.C.) exhibits a stunning lack of imagination and vision, not to mention corporate citizenship. Amazon had an opportunity to transform a small or medium-sized city into a place of opportunity. Instead, they chose the easy route, and went to a high bidder, and will add to the mire that plagues NYC and DC/Arlington. The innovator has turned into the ultimate corporate profiteer.
4
Now NY and DC know how small town America felt when WalMart came to town. But people who complained about the small manufacturing plants that were lost in the quest for lower prices also wanted cheap jeans. I still drive to Half Price and Barnes and Noble for my books because I want them to be there.
2
@Anne I remember when Barnes and Noble was the recipient of as much hatred as Amazon now for its effect on small, private-owned bookstores.
1
I love Amazon, but I don’t understand why we are offering incentives for them to move here. It’s not like NYC needs a status bump.
2
The last 40 years or so with the exception of David Dinkins all the mayors have coddled big corporations while turning a blind eye to the average, struggling working person and the poor. These mayor's never spoke for us, especially Giuliani and Bloomberg. One, a law and order nut job the other an out of touch with reality multi- billionaire. How about we elect people who have struggled with staying afloat, a person who knows what people really need, not someone who markets themselves well or stamps themselves with a made up "progressive" label like De Blasio has done. Actions speak louder than words and De Blasios actions clearly show that he's more a pro-corporate Republican than a progressive. As for Governor, Cuomo's sitting pretty, answerable to no one given his recent re-election so he can make or break deals as he sees fit. I just hope Cuomo doesn't run for President, though no one could do worse than Trump, Cuomo in his own way would certainly come close. Politics in this country sure stinks to high heaven , but most dunderhead voters just think they're walking in a rose garden when it comes to their participation in the electoral process. No one but ourselves to blame. "Garbage in; Garbage out"- George Carlin
6
On the contrary, other cities coddled corporations more than we did: That's why they left us for points west and south.
1
You want a one party state but still complain about trump , that’s the meaning of hypocrisy
@lou andrews Actually, Dinkins consolidated the Economic Development into one agency, and was, overall, a bigger booster of corporate incentives than his successors.
Buying something from amazon and having amazon come to Queens are two different things. You can still like the products that amazon offers but not like the tax breaks that amazon gets or how rent will go up once amazon arrives. Just because you don't like amazon coming to Queens, doesn't mean you have to boycott amazon's products.
1
How many of the 25,000 employees will be actual Amazon staff with W-2’s from the company at tax time? How many will be 1099 contractors or temp agency hires? Will all or even most be white collar professionals? How large of a support staff will Bezos hire? Is that included in the 25k above? Again, the same 3 questions about those positions. And among all of the above, what percentage will realistically reside in one of the five boroughs? Remember, NYC lost the commuter income tax two decades ago.
1
I’m happy to have Amazon come to NYC--but it’ not coming to my neighborhood. I think the people who will be directly affected have a legitimate concern about the impact of such an immense Leviathan coming to their community. Will anything really be done to address parking, subway crowding, bus schedules, and all the other difficulties of daily life? No doubt the supermen and superwomen who will work for great salaries at Amazon will be able to float above the fray. But the rest of us will be down on the ground, fighting to get onto the train.
The bottom line about this great deal for Amazon and politicians, a toxic deal for the rest of us, is that I can no longer walk out my NYC door and find the most fascinating and unique things and experiences that I moved to this city so long ago for. This even includes just walking down the street and seeing individuality and creativity everywhere, including how people dress. The truly creative class and the wonderful mom and pop operations have fled the high rents, rampant gentrification and uber-capitalism. Younger folks live in breathtaking lock step conformity of "cool" as dictated by the screen. Live by the screen, die by the screen, happening right in front of us. Between Amazon, the current Facebook scandal, and most obviously the state of the GOP and the DC swamp the corporate overlords have truly taken over. Looking forward to the revolution.
11
@downtown I have an instant solution to your dilemma: Move out of Manhattan.
1
Those against this move are sadly misguided and short-sighted, to say the absolute least. 25,000 jobs will be created. (I'm assuming that 50,000 figure commonly pointed to is split between Virginia & Queens) At an average salary of $150,000 per year (and a median salary would be more helpful, if someone can find that) equals $3.7+ billion in salaries paid per year.
This move also continues to establish New York City as the Mecca of tech for the East Coast, and builds more well-deserved respect to Queens. New denser, (and thus greener) developments will be built than would have been previously built on the same land.
Of course there will be growing pains, but what about all the benefits that we will reap? If Amazon only stays in Queens 5 years, why not go along for the ride? Of course, they won't stay for such a short time. This is an investment for many years to come.
We have decent subway infrastructure, and this investment by Amazon will hopefully be the final catalyst to wake up our lumbering politicians to the importance of quickly acting on infrastructure investment.
I'm sorry to say to the nay-sayers, but this is good for Queens. This is good for New York. It is good for the residents of Queensbridge, Woodside, & Jamaica. This is good for the residents of Mott Haven, St. George, Inwood, and Greenpoint.
This is the future, like it or not. Your old road is rapidly aging.
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand.
For the times, they are a changing.
4
Decent subway, the money in tax breaks the great empire state is giving amazon can pay for all the repairs our struggling M.T.A is having. The 7 train is already at max capacity in rush hour, adding 25k more employees will stress it beyond belief
10
@E. F. Boccardi "Mecca for tech on the East Coast?" SInce when is retailing "tech?" Amazon is to us what the Sears and Spiegel catalogs were to our parents in the 50s and 60s.
3
The average salary is misleading. I want to know the median salary and the breakdown of starting salaries for all expected hires. Is there a stipulation on how many jobs must be filled by locals? Speaking of hiring - is their a limit (hopefully 0) on H1B visa hires?
Opening an elementary school is nice but a drop in Bezos' bucket. How about a science and/or tech lab in 10 nearby high schools?
3
@reginamf Good grief. I meant "is there a limit" not "is their". Drat.
1
The construction of the Amazon facility certainly would be a game changer with many pluses and minuses for the area. But I truly wonder how the city and state are going to deliver on needed infrastructure when even the current infrastructure - especially for transportation - is currently under tremendous strain.
2
@JGar I doubt if Amazon employees will be using much public transit. I suspect Amazon, like other West Coast companies, will provide free private buses for its employees so they won' t be subject to the vagaries of public transit and the people who ride it.
1
Hypocrites? -- I don't know if this term applies.
I'll give it to Amazon -- they provide a really great service and online experience, perhaps it is the best for the online retail we currently have today..and it's a service I do find myself using every so often. This is different however than the effect that the corporate giant has at the sociological level. Thats how this issue is defined. We have colossal companies providing great services who's corporate footprints lie in the sensible outskirts of metropolitan areas bringing no drastic effects to the local level. I'm saying this because I am a New Yorker whos relocated to Seattle and in the last four years observed and experienced the culturally numbing and 'tasteless' effects (along with microeconomic discords) the 60,000 employee Amazon headquarter has had on Seattle. Reality in south lake union is skewed. Amazon can continue to grow and provide their great services without giving local communities the blackhole turbulence. They can most certainly afford that.
2
For the NY metro (as someone that lived in the city and in NJ for a combined 8 years), this deal is great for young talent that is on the rise. Sure, there is a tax sacrifice on the corporate side but there is an income tax and property tax gain on the citizen side. Citizens that will be well paid and will have careers advanced by one of the most brilliant companies in the 21st century.
Amazon for its downward pressure on competing RETAILERS is so amazing for small brands & entrepreneurs that now have a place to sell their goods (and services). Prior to Amazon, it was very difficult for these small companies to succeed at getting distribution at Walmart, Target, CVS. And 'mom & pop' shops are commonly serviced by large, national distributors/brokers that also require small companies to hand over almost all of their margin.
Bottomline...ask how many everyday people are happy or not happy that Amazon exists in their lives. I'm willing to bet that Amazon has a very, very high approval rating.
4
The city and state are not going recoup the money they spent on the corporate side with property tax. Most people in the city rent or lease their apartments.
1
@Danilo Bonnet Yes, and their landlords pay property taxes.
2
Actually, I’ve been boycotting Amazon since I found out they carry NRA TV.
6
I'm not understanding the title and opening graphs of this article... One can be an Amazon customer and get value them as a consumer and also be appalled at them receiving these giveaways from the government. Why are these things in opposition? I buy goods from all kinds of corporations (Nike, Whole Foods, etc) but that doesn't mean I want the city giving them sweetheart deals that return questionable value to the taxpayer.
Patronizing Amazon and also questioning them getting a deal like this is literally NOT hypocritical.
3
@Hmmm
You're right that the title was misleading, but what it was hinting at is that people lament the loss of small business and B&M retail, yet still order everything off Amazon and the like. The article didn't focus as much on that aspect and I think it should have a different , more appropriate title, e.g. "Spineless local politicians pander for votes by giving charity handouts to mega-corporations".
4
@Hmmm Whole Foods is Amazon now. The boycott, along with the vote, is one of our most powerful tools.
1
@Hmmm State and city officials bent over backwards to accommodate Amazon because it is one of the biggest and most successful companies on earth--it has immeasurable luster. And it has the luster and status it does, because we have made it so. All of us have become incredibly dependent on Amazon and we can't break the habit.
1
Socialist dictatorship principles for the 1% owned businesses; dog eat dog capitalist dictatorship for everyone else.
2
Maybe there are people whose only thought about Amazon and their city is "not in my city". But let's get real ... the overwhelming majority of the comments from people about Amazon setting up new "headquarters" is about the insane level of subsidy they will receive to do so. The complaints are about the use of public money to lure a for-profit corporation into doing something it was going to do anyway.
There's no hypocrisy in that. None.
2
New bike lines were recently installed on two busy side avenues (not the major boulevard) in Sunnyside Queens over the strong objections of the local Community Board 2. Some pro-bike advocates even want to ban cars from the area entirely and dream of a pedestrian-only utopia, yet surely order online from Amazon and other online sources. Truck delivery for their stuff is apparently ok but cars for their neighbors are not.
So isn't this also an ethical dilemma for them?
1
@Vicki Thanks for writing. You raise an excellent question. People are so addicted to the efficiency of Amazon that they don't see the broader costs. These trucks really add to the city's congestion issues.
5
Ummmmmm, lessee: it’s anti free market, and the government shouldn’t get into supporting business. In the 19th century, the supposedly free market U.S. government gave federal land to companies to encourage the growth of railroads. How much?? Acreage equivalent to the size of the state of Texas!! Governments of every stripe have always supported business, and always will. Small businesses have always been wiped out by the growth of larger businesses and new technology (Whatever happened to the blacksmith shop down the street? When was the last time you walked into a little local drug store? Where are all those scribes that used to illustrate manuscripts?). Change happens.
3
As a denizen of the DC area on the Maryland side, I'm happy that they selected NoVA. We get a lot of spillover benefits without giving up any ridiculous incentives.
Stop shopping on Amazon for everything. It's possible to buy things from other websites. Try some civic responsibility instead of convenience. Amazon is not good for America.
7
This is how really-existing neoliberal capitalism works: a race to the bottom for all but the rich, in which a trillion-dollar company gets billions which we all know won't come back. From your pocketbooks. And when the masses get uppity, well, you can just use all kinds of distractions and more direct methods of control to keep them in line.
Note that two supposed "liberals," Cuomo and De Blasio, fawned all over Amazon. If not, they'd've been savaged if the deal had gone elsewhere without their having fought for it.
Whether anyone uses Amazon or not is hardly the issue: why neoliberalize all dissent into consumer choice? The author doesn't even get it, I'm sure. It's just "morality" to him.
Ocasio-Cortez nailed it in her tweets, and she is excoriated for it. Bill Black explains this all very well: https://therealnews.com/stories/amazons-new-nyc-and-dc-headquarters-bilked-the-cities
Ordering from Amazon is the moral quandary? OK, try this on for size: unless we're all fighting to essentially replace really-existing capitalism with some zero-growth, steady-state model, the civilization and maybe even the species is finished. That's the reality; how many liberals who damn climate deniers accept that fact? We're beyond carrying capacity, and nature grants no safe spaces.
Meanwhile we're all one accident away from total destruction, as noted by Dan Ellsberg in his recent book on nukes.
We all know this, and most of us do nothing. There's a moral quandary for ya.
3
@Doug Tarnopol Just in case--here's a playlist of Ellsberg ongoing interview with Paul Jay: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLEMpXvr0s1QYpE4ePHNdjGktCLyLUE0v
To save time, you can find transcripts here: https://therealnews.com/series/reality-asserts-itself-daniel-ellsberg
Pretty serious stuff, and rest assured that I include myself most definitely in this category of the morally insufficient. Maybe moreso--I was in the nuclear freeze movement as a boy. Since then? Like Cheney, I had "other priorities." Well, admitting you have a problem is the first step, right? :)
Let us all go and sin no more, cuz anything you love (or hate) about life is all done unless we solve AGW and nukes.
Last point, to add a little humor: anything Henry Kissinger and Noam Chomsky essentially agree on, that we must eliminate nukes and soon, is probably right.
1
Creative ideas about extracting concessions from Amazon..
1. RE the city's COMMERCIAL RENT TAX..a significant extra financial burden for small retailers ...let Amazon itself cover all of it by the City levying Amazon with the city's entire yearly take.
While this sort of hypocrisy may be urban, it’s certainly not novel – the mere lack of a backyard never stopped a NIMBY.
6
I am curious as to why Amazon did not choose Newark. They would have access to the same labor pool, proximity to a major international airport, much cheaper real estate and easy access to lower and midtown Manhattan via path, NJ Transit, and Amtrak. Crowded LI City strikes me as an odd choice.
5
Convincing talented 25 year olds to work in Newark versus a location 5 minutes from Midtown Manhattan? Sorry it is not the same labor pool by a long shot.
12
Have to wonder how much the on-going public infrastructure disaster aka New Jersey Transit played in passing up Newark.
It’s one thing if the 7 train is overcrowded. At least it will get there.
As many commentators have mentioned, Amazon’s instincts here have been revealed to be anti-civic and wanting no part of anchoring a high profile renewal of any American city.
2
@Dave David raises an excellent point. Reverse commuting is now a way of the world--Audible is in Newark, for example. And 25-year olds don't live in midtown Manhattan. It's way too expensive.
4
I tried Amazon for about 18 months, it rarely offered the best deals, it's search is ridiculous, 90% of what I bought on Amazon I found by searching Google, which is where I am always find a better deal.
I realized I need Amazon about as much as NYC does.
This whole episode just exposes Cuomo and especially de Blasio who claimed he wasn't going to be doling out Corporate Welfare. There is your hypocrite!
2
All of these dollars to Amazon are lethal weapons aimed at local stores and businesses.
4
The amazing part of this is that Cuomo and De Blasio are lauding this deal. Once again, it is all about "lining their pockets", increasing their political footprints, but at what cost?. This deal is going to crush the small business in NYC. What incentives are they the city and State giving to them. You know, the small businesses that can use some tax relief? NONE. Just curious, how will these small businesses be able to afford the increase in salaries.
Did anyone stop to think what this might do to salaries? I guess not. If they (you know, the small business) were getting these same tax breaks and subsidies, perhaps that would change the equation.Unless the City and State are giving them to these small businesses as well, you do realize what a major disadvantage they are facing? I guess to Coumo and DeBlasio "small business is (no longer) the backbone of America" at least not of New York. More like a dumping ground.
28
I am a fervent proponent of fair competition. I strongly oppose all commercial subsidies of every kind since they result in unfair competition favoring the recipients of the subsidies. I oppose them also because they result in other taxpayers being forced to pay more taxes in order to fund the subsidies for the privileged few recipients.
I make the above statements even though I am an indirect beneficiary of the massive subsidies you are providing to Amazon. I indirectly benefit because I don't live in New York and I am an Amazon customer. The subsidies you are providing to Amazon will result in lower costs to Amazon which will be reflected in Amazon's ability to sell products to me at lower prices (so long as there is competition to Amazon from other retailers).
So, I say a hearty thank you to you foolish New Yorkers who elect politicians who waste billions upon billions of your tax dollars by giving them away to a privileged few like Amazon and Elon Musk (you gave him a free factory in Buffalo that cost almost $1 billion).
32
No benefit for you my friend. Amazon’s prices are determined by supply and demand. Amazon’s shareholders and New York workers are the likely winners here.
6
@Mike
Sorry, Mike, but your reasoning is faulty. You are certainly correct that supply and demand are what determines price. But the supply curve represents the prices that a seller is willing to sell at for any given quantity. Those prices are determined by the seller's costs to provide the product or service. If the seller's costs are lowered, then its supply curve shifts to the right. That causes the intersection of the supply and demand curves to occur at a lower price and higher quantity. It is basic Microeconomics 101.
2
@Errol
Exactly why I'm glad they didn't come to Boston. We have our own tech up the wazoo here. It was always my opinion that Bezos should pay us if they want access to our talent. Maybe that's we we told them, and maybe that's why they're not here.
No big loss.
9
All kinds of reasons not to buy from Amazon (or Uber or Facebook or ...). Our choices make the world we live in.
It's strange - no one seems to be aware of all the taxes Amazon will pay the state or the city, or the economic impact so many highly paid workers will contribute to the local economy, as they buy groceries, get haircuts, visit restaurants, and every other activity all those wages will go toward. This is a huge win for the city.
48
@JNL - Why should Amazon be offered special treatment over any other business? This is a blatant interference in the actions of the Free Market, helping to promote Amazon as a monopoly, at taxpayer expense.
I think special deals between governments and private businesses should be illegal. It is fundamentally anti-Democratic, favoring the owners of one business over another, in the hopes of bribing them to set up within their communities.
ALL businesses, just as all citizens, should be required to follow the same laws and be subject to the same tax regimes.
Draw a parallel to private persons. Suppose a certain town were to offer people with a net worth of over $10 million preferential treatment, discounts on property taxes and utilities, exemptions from planning codes ... on the theory that their presence in the community would cause them to spend money within the community and that this would be a net benefit. Would you agree to that? Do you think that giving the rich special privileges not available to the rest of us who work hard on hourly wages, is the right way to go?
53
@JNL
Thanks for a bit of common sense. People just aren't thinking this through.
12
@JNL Another benefit is that it is highly likely that Amazon's presence in LI City will draw other companies to the area. Everyone seems to want more jobs in Queens, but you can't get more jobs without development. High paying jobs for college educated knowledge workers might not directly help more than a handful of those living in Knights Bridge, but it will surely create service industry jobs in the area that they can benefit from. Interesting that I've heard more concern for Knights Bridge residents in the last two days than I have heard in the last twenty years combined.
12
We in Arlington VA ask the same questions about Amazon--is it really worthwhile to give them $1 billion or more to move here, and what will be costs other than this billion dollars of public funds that could have been spent elsewhere?
We have 3% unemployment, virtual traffic gridlock during rush hour, overcrowded public schools, and have fewer than 2,000 affordable rental apartments, and an over ten-year waiting list for Section 8 HUD rental vouchers. Metrorail is in deplorable shape because of failure to repair and invest so good luck riding the trains.
Our county government because of rising school costs has virtually no financial ability to finance this Amazon subsidy unless they raise taxes on current residents. It cannot issue more bonds since we already have issued so many for schools, Metrorail and parks. So short run taxes will rise on the 230,000 residents to pay money to a corporation that grosses tens of billions of dollars a year.
Our county and state elected officials like the business groups will say that in the LONG RUN this will raise enough taxes to pay the over billion dollars in Amazon subsidies. Maybe so, but maybe not, but in the short run our local taxes will rise, state funds that would have been spent for infrastructure elsewhere in our state will be spent in Crystal City. It's a bad deal for taxpayers in NYC and Arlington.
79
@john: It sounds like the problem is with your local government, not with Amazon. I'm assuming the housing, schools and infrastructure issues predate Amazon's decision?I see that "for the last two decades, Arlington has been a Democratic stronghold at nearly all levels of government". Why don't you hold them accountable, rather than complain about Amazon?
5
@john Its a good deal. Redeveloping Crystal City, transportation improvements, and the biggest and least commented-on development is the Virginia Tech campus. Yes the state said they had wanted to do that anyway, so its not a direct subsidy to Amazon, but a benefit to the local workforce and to the state that was the icing on the cake. This demonstrates that investing in education gets the best bang for the buck in the long run. Other localities offered TONS more money upfront, but it still wasn't worth it, and VA only offered about 1/2 what NY did. Spending money to have good schools is tremendous for economic development. If you don't you don't get good paying jobs that require a talented and diverse workforce, instead you get prisons and warehouse distribution centers.
1
Elsewhere I have read that Amazon will receive $1.7 BILLION in "incentives" from New York state... i.e., the taxpayers of NY.
I believe it is fundamentally anti-Free Market for a government body to subsidize selectively one private business entity over another and it strongly encourages corruption.
Neither Amazon nor any other company should be offered a state-funded competitive advantage, at taxpayer expense, over any other company. It discourages competition in the marketplace, thereby increasing consumers, and it promotes monopolies.
Very simply, it should be illegal. Governments should be required to apply the same tax policies to ALL, with no exceptions or favoritism allowed.
107
@J Jencks - typo ... dang it!
3rd paragraph, 2nd sentence should read "increasing COST to consumers"
Yes, Amazon is often the "cheapest", but if that discount comes via a taxpayer subsidy and the result is to put other companies who don't get that subsidy out of business, then in the long run, it is an increased cost to consumers on several fronts, taxes diverted from other needs, jobs lost from companies pushed out of business, and eventually, as Amazon's monopoly expands, increasing direct costs to consumers due to lack of competition in the marketplace.
5
@J Jencks
Portland leaves a lot to be desired. Jealous?
I think it would be wonderful if all states had the same tax rates like we do have the same federal rates. But we don’t and NYC is the highest taxed jurisdiction in the country (maybe CA is close). We pay 4.2% city income tax on all income including cap gains, on top of NY State income tax of at least 8% also on cap gains. Compared to TX and FL which have none of the above. Thus every state and city offered Amazon incentives to win its competition. Some incentives were richer than others since it was a confidential auction to win the business of Amazon 2nd HQ. I too wish our city and state didn’t have to play the game, but with so many extensive expenses to run our city, ie city workers, guaranteed pensions and healthcare for them, infrastructure costs, largest free education system in the world, etc the city needs the tax revenue from corporations to survive. I am glad they chose to compete, since it seems, as the details unfold, that tax revenues will be 9 or 10 times the incentives offered. That’s an excellent return on investment. Even in the private sector, any investor worth his or her salt would make that trade everyday.
4
Yes I suppose we could all boycott Amazon. But the bigger problem here is the ongoing way that politicians sell their credibility as being for the people, the working poor, minorities, and then once in office start playing with tax payer money in ways that seems to go against the rhetoric they sold the voter. Amazon and other tech behemoths were built on free lunch, while the average worker and conventional business owner got no such advantages. It's all just talk. Why on earth should a city have to beg and cajole to get a super wealthy company to work here? The whole Amazon business model is based on tax payer handout. They should be giving back not taking more.
1
Shopping on amazon may be convenient to those who don’t wish to leave home or office or coffee shop, but it destroys the local small businesses which used to exist. Bookstores, shoe stores, small markets and parts stores are rapidly disappearing because we can’t be bothered to go out to engage with people. When did we become a country where we live our lives through the will of big business instead of dealing with our lives and it’s needs head on? Big business does not have our best interests in mind, and amazon is the biggest and most manipulative of them all.
3
A lot of those businesses weren't "driven" out by Amazon. In Brooklyn, they closed for various reasons: no one repairs watches or shoes anymore; landlords want more lucrative businesses in their spaces and|or warehouse the stores; the new generation doesn't want to do dry cleaning or sell radio parts or repair TVs . . .
And while we have immigrants who do some of these things, here and there, we are a throw-away society. My mother had her washing machine for 45 years; I've had three in less than half that time. And our old rented telephones never broke because Ma Bell never wanted to repair them.
The mess pre-dates Amazon.
The real issue here is the time-crunch that current work culture engenders. Sure, I’d love to leisurely peruse the offerings at local, independent book shops and buy my household goods at the little hardware store on the corner. However, once I’ve finished my 10-hour workday and commuted and gotten both of my kids to and from school and done the dishes I generally pass out on the sofa and thank god my subscribe-and-save monthly box of diapers is arriving, on time, tomorrow by 8pm.
20
@Hmm. Yes; yes, a thousand times yes. Email/Slack etc mean that work can never be turned off. Combine that with the increased pressures exerted by the current parenting culture and there is virtually no time left to do anything.
4
@Hmm.
Many remote or rural areas don't have enough local stores to meet basic needs. I live in a ski resort town, and for clothing, food choices, and many household items, I have to drive 45 minutes to an hour each way over mountain passes to get to a town that actually has independent book stores and big box retailers. I do patronize my local library, hardware store, thrift store and grocery store as much as possible, but I can't afford most of the high priced clothing boutiques and restaurants and am grateful to be able to shop online rather than spend much of my free time driving. About 25 years ago I was living in another rural resort town when Walmart built a store. Huge criticism, but again it saved me two hour round trip drives to buy basic items (jeans, socks, tires, etc.). Many people patronizing the store were now able to cut their shopping commutes from 5 or 6 hours to 3 or 4.
I don't support the policies of big-box stores or online retailers that underpay their workers and get tax incentives that negatively affect communities. The reality, however, is that both working and shopping patterns change over time. I buy items from traditional brick and mortar retailers online (REI, Nordstroms) a couple of times a year, but I can't remember the last time I shopped in a traditional department store or shopping mall.
3
I fail to see any problem here. I think that you can probably make a good argument for removing all tax subsidies of any kind from all projects and let the market decide what gets done. I doubt that the political classes would ever permit that in the city so one tax giveaway is probably as good as another. When the overpaid and underqualified Mr. Carranza proposes $17 billion for improved "accessibility" in the public school system knowing he will not get the tiniest fraction of this amount, the political class hardly murmured. Maybe Amazon's presence in the city will lead to marked improvements that are now hard to predict or calculate.
11
I, for one, don't feel hypocritical at all. When I was caring for an elderly relative who was homebound and under the care of a round-the-clock aide, Amazon proved invaluable for providing her with groceries, health care items, household items, and clothing in a timely manner and at a reasonable cost. It would have been impossible for me to care for this person adequately without Amazon's service. Time and time again, Amazon has met my personal shopping needs when local stores have failed to do so. And I live in New York City, an area known for its stores. Rather than throw rocks at Amazon, we ought to embrace the change that is taking place and consider other uses for those storefronts that are empty. Dare I say housing or decentralized city services? Libraries, perhaps? Let's be creative, not reactionary.
12
@jrak It, and other online retailers like walmart.com and target.com, are also good for seniors who are on fixed incomes and/or can't carry as much as they once did. Don't forget people in places like Manhattan often don't have cars. And regular brick and mortar places like supermarkets now often carry only gigantic sizes of things. Being able to get these things online for less, and delivered for free, is a real plus for seniors, including those who are still well.
2
If you shop on Amazon you are an active and willing participant in the demise of the brick and mortar store. If we want stores to exist we must stop shopping on Amazon. Full. Stop.
2
You would have to do way more than that. No shopping whatsoever on the internet. That goes for business shopping as well. If you are not self employed you’d have to get the company you work for to stop getting any supplies and equipment through the internet. And don’t even think about shopping at big box stores. Remember when they were the villains? Well they still are. Borders Books (may it rest in peace) was the demise of the local bookstore, not Amazon.
i'm not sure why it's hypocritical to be a company's customer and yet not want your city to offer it tax breaks. seems like a pretty lazy argument...
regarding those subsidies, the fact is that employers already want to move to NYC, and so do employees! the reason many businesses hesitate is not because they are waiting to get some tax breaks from City Hall, but because of the high cost of living and office space. the only way to solve that is to add more apartments and more office space, and use the additional tax money to invest in infrastructure (schools, subways, etc).
so this incentive business manages to be stupid twice: first, you offer incentives for businesses to move where they already want to move, and second you forgo the money needed to actually accommodate more businesses and people.
7
I don't object to Amazon moving into the neighborhood.
I object to our elected so-called leaders cow towing to a gigantic corporation worth billions and giving away "incentives" on the backs of taxpayers.
The local news last night noted that the Virginia located will reach 25,000 by 2030. HUH????
3
@MB
Agree. Same issue in Reno and its surrounds, with Tesla, an Amazon distribution center, and centers for Apple and Google coming in with huge subsidies and tax breaks. There are not enough schools, housing, or infrastructure in place to accommodate large influxes of new employees without the taxes needed for the concurrent expansion of county and state services.
2
I only bought stuff via Amazon two years ago when I had a crisis. Before and after, nothing. I buy books from independent book stores, and otherwise shop at local stores or non-Amazon websites.
Amazon empties out the small stores that make so much of America livable, and guts the retailers that employ thousands, then touts creating thousands of low paying warehouse jobs. This is not progress; it's the recreation of serfdom.
2
The real question is "Is it OK to offer Amazon massive exemptions from paying the taxes that other companies pay to support public services?" Nobody would be complaining if they were treated like everyone else.
4
Biggest hypocrite in this whole situation is Trump. He got elected and is already running for reelection based on bringing back jobs to middle America. What steps did he take to pressuring Amazon and Congress to make sure those 50,000 new jobs went to his devoted base? Nada!
1
@Steve simon How many people from his devoted base have the necessary skills?
4
“I love the poorly educated”. DJT.
Actually if you take this from a Blue V Red National political standpoint, all this does is push Blue to be more Blue.
It re-inforces that Cities trending blue in red states (Nashville, Indy, Columbus) are not getting to sit at the big boy table and sharpens their grievance against Blue coastal elites.
2
You can argue either way. It is a moral issue for me. Monopoly has never been benefited the public and especially Amazon’s business model demands small players to suck up the loss while enriching a few at Amazon.
I can’t support my hard earned tax money going to this company.
1
25,000 high paying jobs to the area. Only a spoiled fool who has never lived in the Rust Belt let alone a third world country would have the audacity to complain.
12
@Jay Lincoln no complaints about the jobs. Complaints about the taxpayer giveaway.
10
Which is standard procedure when any big company relocates or makes a significant investment in an area.
3
Don’t use Amazon for a thing. Funny me.
4
Companies like Amazon and Facebook are more disruptive to society than beneficial. Break them up.
7
"Invasion" is an inflammatory term. Trump's propagandists referred to a large influx of refugees as an "invasion" in order to panic Republicans into showing up for the midterms. This columnist calls the Amazon/New York deal an invasion because she disapproves of it. My home town positively wanted to be "invaded" by Amazon.
3
Seems like more trickle-down economics with drippings that will never reach me as a native New Yorker.
7
I owe my soul to the company store. --Merle Travis
4
Tennessee Ernie Ford. Sixteen Tons.
@Jo Williams Tennessee Ernie Ford did sign Merle Travis' song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pfVvqLM_e4
Trump has proven it is extremely easy to make hypocrites of Americans. Give them something they want cheaply and they will give up almost anything. Walmart, then Amazon understood this for many years, putting many American business models in early graves. Americans will wax eloquently about a way of life lost, but getting something for next to nothing is the only truism about which Americans will never be hypocrites.
1
I my opinion this is the American Brexit deal. Brexit will turn out to be a bad deal for the UK and Amazon will be a bad deal for NYC. To all you Amazon fans there really is a life that does not include Amazon. Get out and take a walk, go to a store, talk to people. It will be good for your soul as you won't be supporting the octopus of corporations. Get in the holiday spirit and go look at the lights and shop at Macy's Herald Square before it is gone.
Just sign me, as far as I know, a boycott of one.
4
Well. Amazon Headquarter NYC sounds a lot better than Amazon Headquarter Seattle.
2
"....but honestly, isn’t that like winning the steak knives when you really wanted the Buick?"
It was a Cadillac Eldorado, not a Buick (from Glengarry Glen Ross"
Forget about the importance of NYC to Amazon for a minute, the prize was the proximity to DC, and power.
1
Yes. I shop at Whole Foods. Sometimes.
When they ask me if I am an Amazon Prime member, I proudly say, "NO!"
Many check-out clerks grumble and smile in understanding.
I try to buy local instead of having things shipped. This is a very old-fashioned perspective. That old, "saving the planet" thing. Crazy, ain't I?
One would think that someone a generation younger would be even more passionate about saving our earth. But I see the 20-somethings' packages piling up in my building. All that fuel. All that packing material.
Willful ignorance. Because nobody could be THAT ignorant.
They're shipping toilet paper, for god's sake!
5
Hi RW, well, since you live in Manhattan, you probably walk to shop, but, for most of the nation, having things delivered by a truck on a logistically efficient route is much better than individuals taking trips in cars. Saving the planet means studying, yes.
Re: the the packing--it's disgusting for sure, especially when your neighbors are violent consumers. I agree, for god and our sake!
@Daisy Clampit
I didn't say I lived in Manhattan.
I get it - sometimes, people need stuff delivered.
It's the paper goods delivery - to grown men and women who can walk and carry things when there is a supermarket a block away- that irks me!
2
@RW
all those goods are shipped to the stores !!
I m a guitarist and can only laugh when guys say
they'd never buy a guitar on-line
how do you think those guitars got to the shop ?
UPS
1
I just can see now real estate agents jumping up and down in happiness....
1
“...The average salary for jobs at the new Amazon headquarters will be $150,000, the company has said...”
Why do reporters keep repeating this Amazon talking point? If HQ executives are all making 2M+ per year and the workers are making 60K, that’s a different kind of “average” than they want us to believe.
6
I’ve got no problem with Amazon coming to New York. I do have a problem with billions in subsidies. That is absolutely crazy - especially for a place that doesn’t particularly need the jobs.
8
Agreed I’m trying to significantly reduce our amazon orders. Not an easy task. I hate shopping. it’s exhausting when you have kids and a full time job. But it’s gross what they’ve done to local stores and whole foods seems like BevMo and Safeway now. Also how they treat employees is untenable.
4
There’s a brand of unscented deodorant that has for years worked perfectly for me. The feel, the effectiveness, the lack of scent. I refuse to settle for an alternative. A few years ago the proliferation of brands and probably supply chain issues meant that it was harder and harder to find. I would make a mental note and pop into assorted stores in my travels around NYC. Sometimes a shelf tag but no stock, other times nothing. Always no knowledge by the store staff of when or if it would be available. Eventually I would find it but the process was a colossal waste of time for one simple item.
Fast forward to now: a few clicks on Amazon and it’s part of my order. Fair price and extraordinarily convenient. They have revolutionized the supply chain. It’s interesting to note that there was once a grocery chain called A&P that in its day, through streamlined distribution and standardized stores offered quality groceries for less. The corner grocer suffered and there were even anti trust lawsuits. A&P recently entered bankruptcy and liquidated. Progress happens. You can’t ignore it.
13
Beautifully written. Tragic but well written. The line that caught my attention was the quip about a six digit salary qualifying for housing subsidies. I was arguing the same point elsewhere. HQ2 in New York is a net loss for employee wages. If the campus had landed in the relatively more affordable Newark, real wages would feel significantly higher.
Also remember, Amazon is reporting median income now rather than average income. Median is a more accurate measure when the pay scale is skewed. We don't know which way Amazon has skewed the pay scale. However, if the curve skews right, Amazon workers are getting killed by New York's cost of living. If the curve skews left, your worst fears about San Francisco are much worse than you think.
These are the reasons I ditched New York a long time ago. Even without Amazon, there's no winning in New York anymore. If you can make it there, you really haven't made it anywhere. Success is measured by your absence more than your presence. I miss the vibe but the vibe won't exist anymore by the time I ever go back. Thanks, I'll stick to Salt Lake for now.
I took a pay cut moving out here. I'm still vastly better off than I ever was in New York. The weather is nicer too.
2
Yes. If you don't like the negative effects of Amazon, don't shop at Amazon. The same goes for Facebook. Only we have the power to do something about these harmful enterprises. Sitting on the couch and wishing they would change won't do it. Quit.
4
I'm actually a little surprised by all the negative criticism here. As a mid-career engineer living in NYC, I welcome the opportunity it provides. I've got a stable job and career, but would welcome having another big tech company in the city, and perhaps one day I'd consider interviewing there. The alternative of moving to Seattle has always been a deal breaker, and Amazon knew that. Even if not for me, this is still 25,000 well paying tech related jobs being added to NYC. The majority of these will benefit NYC residents.
13
"in truth, she stood at the pinnacle and could have anyone."
This is the analogy you rely on to imagine New York? When I left the city, it was to give up hulking piles of garbage bags, absurd square footage, and a broken transit system (among other reasons). I’m sure New York City’s explosive 1-2% annual population growth is attributable to some of the same traits.
you’ve spent plenty of ink arguing that midsize cities (read: elsewhere) would have been the preferable outcome, it’s clear that you’re only offended by the tax subsidy. On that, at least, we agree.
but before we forget, the state of New York is filled with declining towns and small cities that don’t quite have the revitalization or growth or "je ne sais quoi" you’ve described. In fact, some might even characterize Long Island City as being one of those communities.
Too bad that you got to stream that miniseries instead of leaving the house and renting it from a local mom and pop business like Blockbuster Video.
1
Spare me the urban hipster tripe. Amazon has no obligation to go to Denver or Pittsburgh to help the country, they are a corporation and are free to choose where to locate their offices to best suit their needs.
Yes, you can make an argument that NY overpaid in incentives, but we will only truly know that a decade from now. Anyone who suggests they can do a cost/benefit analysis at this juncture is kidding themselves.
The good news for New York City is this offers diversification of our job base which is still heavily weighted towards Wall Street. It also suggests the enormous premium that top companies are willing to pay for proximity to human capital which NYC has in droves.
If you don't like the problems associated with a robust economy-- increased traffic, housing woes, etc. take a drive upstate or visit Cleveland or other hurting cities. You'll change your tune quickly.
16
@Sparky Absolutely right. Sometimes I wonder what world some of these columnists live in.
3
Incredible how every article I read bemoans the fact that this company is bringing in a 25,000 strong work force of highly paid, intelligent drivers of 21st century business. Bringing in new waves of people like this is exactly what makes NYC so dynamic.
10
@Michael Sander no, they're bemoaning the $3 billion in subsidies Amazon is getting from the city and the state. if NYC is "so dynamic", don't you think a successful company would want to be here anyway?
3
I feel sorry for all the prospective high tech employees, forced into the structured, limited urban lifestyle. No backyard gardens, no winding trails through the countryside after work...no walking across the street for a neighborhood BBQ. No nearby ski slopes, sledding hills, lakes for rowboats only....Little wonder so many tech games/apps seem all the same, so much seems to focus on staying in the house. There is nothing else.....outside.
Amazon had the chance to be totally innovative, as was it’s beginnings. Now it’s just...ordinary. And more and more distant. Good luck opening those office windows.
1
Actually I feel sorry for those living in places where they can’t see an on or off or off-off Broadway show, visit a world class museum, see an indie film, see opera, see ballet, have the choice of thousands of pizza parlors and Chinese restaurants or Senegalese takeout, take the subway to an NBA game. Forgive me if all those distractions make me forget that the Appalachian trail is about an hour north and world class beaches about the same distance east. Both accessible if you like by train.
11
@Jo Williams "There is nothing else.....outside." yes, that's the first thing that comes to mind when you think about nyc. it's like living in the middle of nowhere!
5
Lol! I knew that was coming. But really, you know the difference between a small local walking trail and the Appalachian - and our Pacific Crest Trail. And yes, I’d love to visit world class museums. For awhile. And then....what?
I've done my best not to use Amazon for a long time, but I do realize a total boycott is impossible. I just wonder whatever happened to anti-trust laws in this country.
8
"The average salary for jobs at the new Amazon headquarters will be $150,000, the company has said. In Indianapolis it would go quite far; in New York City, that wouldn’t disqualify you for a housing subsidy."
Which brings up a good point -- how does Bill de Blasio's precious MIH figure into all of this? Or was it bypassed by the involvement of the state? If Anable Basin is upzoned, which it surely must be for Amazon's scope, then MIH is triggered. Plus Bill doesn't ever do anything unless there is some claim of affordable housing - at which point developers can then do as they please. But there has been very little talk of affordable housing around this Amazon deal. What gives?
3
I don’t think that buying products from Amazon is the same as wanting to offer them a billion-dollar subsidy. I’m happy for Amazon to succeed, I just want them to play by the same rules every other company faces and pay the same tax rate. I don’t think this is logically inconsistent.
10
I have read that the average salary for Amazon employees will be $150,000 a year; another article I read stated the salaries will be $100,000. This is a blatant lie. The average Amazon worker will earn significantly less than that.
I would think that given the overcrowding and density of NYC's population (8.5 million people), that the city would discourage more people from moving there. Looks like I was wrong about that.
@W Traveler
It'a a headquarters--not a pick and pack warehouse. Yes, on average Amazon workers make far less than $100K per year, but its technical staff makes more and these jobs are for tech staff. So, no, it's not a "blatant lie."
7
Given what was revealed to be Atlanta's offer, I'm happy we didn't win even the 50%.
1
You use Amazon, without knowing, a lot: their cloud computing service underlies lots of other companies (and government functions). They’re not just a seller of stuff.
9
Convenience will kill us.
And as Amazon crushes local retailers we have literally no choice but to buy from them.
It's time for real anti-trust regulation.
7
@hooper
I have disabilities that keep me from driving and make walking long distances difficult. Fortunately I can shop via my computer. I don't consider that "convenience".
5
By my calculation the state of New York will make back the tax break in seven years based solely on income tax. If you add property tax on the new facility it will be considerably shorter. If you add collateral income from tax on the wages of construction workers, new support businesses in the vicinity etc it is even a shorter break even period. Will this squeeze the neighborhood? Of course. Will it improve it? Of course.
13
@Paul "Will this squeeze the neighborhood? Of course. Will it improve it? Of course."
And sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
3
Right. But there is at least room for debate about the relate benefits of value with economic benefit (Amazon) vs value with non-economic benefit (community character, less traffic, disruption of local continuity). Fox books vs the shop around the corner if you know that movie.
2
@mpound
How could it be worse?
The public housing residents live on taxpayers dollars and their median income is $15,000 or so making them living in poverty.
Is it possible that those children living in poverty will have a better future because of what Amazon will bring to this neighborhood?
I think so.
4
Good for Queens and NYC real estate developers who will cash-in on the gentrification of LIC and the surrounding area. As it now stands, Amazon workers in Queens and elsewhere can not afford to live on the minimum wage Besos pays them. Welcome to the new New York City where vassals are boot-stomped by the corporate overlords who now run the USA.
7
Amazon is not "invading" Queens. "Invasion" is a word with sinister connotations and just like it should not be used by the right to describe impoverished Central American refugees, it should not be cavalierly used by the this reputable newspaper to describe the Amazon move to LIC. Enough with creating imagined boogeymen all around.
Amazon is a cutting edge American success story which has made shopping much easier for American consumers. Period. Middle-class workers in Queens welcome you and look forward to the job opportunities which will come from your move and which could have gone elsewhere.
The Times does cite legitimate concerns about some of the effects of the technological shifts in customer spending habits and implications for physical retail stores and small businesses. The Times also frequently cites the issues with affordable housing - these should be addressed through thoughtful public policy. This is not a zero sum formula where business climate has to lose in order for the problems to be solved.
Driving out corporations (ie "invaders") with a hostile environment may indeed achieve more affordable housing - Detroit has shown how that formula works ........
32
@HBTO
Thank you for attempting to stop this nonsense that is spreading the NIMBY provincialism and/or simply sensationalism in the press and on cable TV.
Stephanie Ruhle on MSNBC is recklessly disparaging everything about Amazon's decision - why? Strictly to create controversy. She never explains what Amazon has promised to bring to LIC or that the tax breaks depend on Amazon actually bringing jobs.
The mentality of those who are trashing Amazon is no different from those who were against the Model T because it would put horses out of business.
5
@Mimi i dislike NYMBYs as much as you seem to. however, i also think it's outrageous that they city and the state offered Amazon around $3 billion in subsidies. that's why many people find the deal a rip off for the city
3
@Bogdan
It's not $3 billion and it's tax subsidies that are dependent on Amazon truly creating new jobs and they are taken over time.
Some people here (obviously ignorant ones) seriously seem to think that the taxpayers have a pot of money that deBlasio and Cuomo are putting into Amazon's coffers.
A pot of money that could be used to fix subways for instance instead.
This is delusional. It doesn't exist! And if Amazon and its business growth thanks to 25,000 highly paid employees doesn't generate revenue for taxpayers, there is nothing to subsidize.
3
Sierra Vista, Arizona would have been a good choice too. High elevation, no snow, no flight delays, 24/7 capability in a fast moving world.
I guess New York won’t be under water in 30 years as the IPCC has suggested it would be. Don’t follow what they say, follow what they do.
1
@William Perrigo
And Arizona has 25,000 qualified professional high tech workers? Hmmmmmmmmm. I doubt it.
Who wants to live there anyway?
2
I'm proud to say I very rarely buy anything through Amazon. I only resort to them when I absolutely can't find what I'm looking for anywhere else.
16
@CMP I am the same way. Amazon is a stop of last resort
1
@CMP
Sadly, some very high quality companies have outsourced their entire retail operation to Amazon. That's when I end up buying from them. Otherwise, no way.
About 10 years ago Cuomo gave millions in incentives to IBM to stay in the mid-Hudson Valley. The deal was that they would not lay off X number of people for 2 years, I think. They did this in Poughkeepsie, then later in Somers and a couple of other places.
The problem was there was no way the public could ensure the deal was kept. There was shenanigans in the way the number of people laid off was counted, the timing and other variables.
After a while (before the end of the two years) IBM refused to make public the breakdown of the number of employees in Poughkeepsie or Fishkill or Somers. They now give a country by country numbers.
So who knows what really occurred?
And once all the corporations figured out they could be paid (or would have to substantially cut their taxes) they all threatened to go to another state to get their incentives.
I believe all corporations in the US should have to file new papers of incorporation and become transparent in yearly filings from the board (which has employee representatives ) for 5 variables:
1) shareholder profit
2) employee welfare (living wage, equal pay, etc, affordable healthcare)
3) positive long term environmental impact
4) community impact (affordable living, mandated to help homelessness)
5) positive vendor relationships
There exists Benefit Corps in 31 states, but they vary from state to state. I think it should be Federal.
Corps are here to support society, not for us to support them!
16
plus Amazon should be obligated to build the most efficient low carbon foodprint, zero waist, green roof, solar panels, wind turbines, self sustainable house ever seen around here.
If you take our tax money do something for that community other than throwing around with even more money - we already have enough golden, black, glass - what - so - ever buildings here (...) . What we! true! New Yorkers want, and don't forget, we were the ones holding on to this place for decades, bad decades and, including for example 9/11, keeping the place somewhat humane; what we want is, global leadership, this time in sustainable housing, architecture, structure, climate change fight. Then, and only then can you call yourself a true New Yorker, by heart and by mind.
A privilege that does not come for "free"..
Otherwise you can just align yourself with the guy across the river from your potential new quarter, with his black high rise behind the United Nation into the same straight line...
Another note... use the Heli Port, also across the river. I think your buddy from the black high rise uses the same port.... Welcome to your new neighbor... in direct view from your potential new building..
Think of it!
Then, and only then do we, the people, keep buying stuff from your empire!
Not Mars, Moon or what so ever! Here on earth is where life is happening!
Then, in return to that
The Amazon payoff is a second generation corporate example of urban sports stadium-itis, a common malady affecting cities hoping for their take from the gate. Build it and they will come. Otherwise known as Field of Unrealistic Expectations.
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Its amazing that the critics completely ignore how much money this deal will make for the city in the long term. Even ignoring the jobs and revenue Amazon will create, this deal essentially leaves NYC with a huge new business district outside of Manhattan that could attract other companies as well who would otherwise move their back office operations to Jersey City or Stamford. When a company creates jobs in Jersey City, NYC and NYS get zero revenue, nada, nothing. So even aside from Amazon, this deal could keep billions of dollars from leaving the city.
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@Dave
What you and other supporters of government commercial subsidies ignore is that Amazon was going to go somewhere to build their needed facilities whether they could get subsidized or not. If New York possessed the attributes which make it the best location for Amazon, then Amazon would have chosen it without receiving a penny of subsidy so long as subsidies were not allowed to be paid by any government. And if New York is not the optimum location for this Amazon facility, then it should not be built in New York because doing so would result in inefficiency which is a waste of resources and results in a lower total amount of goods and services for the population as a whole.
This is the fundamental economic argument against commercial subsidies. That is why nearly every economist opposes them (except those having a higher priority to pursue a conflicting political agenda)
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@Dave You do know jobs and money flow are not as walled-off as you suggest? My daughter lived in Jersey City, worked across the street from the World Trade Center towers, for the Bank of New York. The jitney buses bring a stream of people from Jersey into the city, as do other transportation systems.
What you miss is why should a company with a market equity of $781 billion get $1.7 billion in tax cuts? Do small business receive tax breaks? Wouldn't they be more deserving? How can you miss this is a giant give away to rich corporations?
What evidence is there its location will create a new business center? Each business has its own reasons for deciding where to locate--apart from massive revenue drains as an incentive. Studies consistently show, just as with trickle-down or Republican tax cuts (see Kansas!), these huge incentives are not returned, nor are working class jobs generated that come near the tax give-aways.
Fix the subways--don't give billions in breaks to billionaires--under the classic reasoning, it will create local jobs. It never does. Fund small businesses, then communities flush!
19
You missed my point. My comment was not focusing on Amazon. NYC is a growing city of 8.5 million people with little room to expand its tax base, and has been losing jobs and revenue to competing cities for decades. If nothing else, this deal is leaving NY with an attractive, new neighborhood outside of Manhattan to keep billions of dollars and jobs in-city and in-state. It will be a huge catalyst. Not to mention the new Amazon jobs. The subsidies will be forgotten about a decade from now, the revenue and jobs will be around for a very long time...LIC is an impressive central location where several city subway lines and the LIRR meet - the potential is amazing.
14
25,000 jobs at $150,000 on average.
Do the math.
One would have to be clueless indeed to think that this will not be a boon to the residents of the City, including shopkeepers and including the poor.
The complaints about the "subsidies" become absurd when one considers that in many cases they consist of forebearance of tax revenues that would not otherwise have been collected, and when one considers that the Governor's estimate of a 9:1 payback is probably correct.
Those 25,000 on average prosperous employees will spend much of what they earn in the City, and that will do more for storefronts than a subsidy for Amazon would.
Brick and mortar retailing is shrinking because much of it is obsolete and it cannot be revived any more than buggy whip manufacturing can.
As to the City Council, it would just put the needs of a handful of local shopkeepers ahead of the tens of thousands who will benefit from the economic activity, tax revenues, and growing high tech sector that the presence of Amazon and Google will foster.
"Communitarian ambitions" indeed. Some people forget that a community is only as strong as the economic engine that supports it. I'm as liberal as the next guy, but liberalism shouldn't consist of having a hole in one's head.
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@Josh Hill. All good points. I'm still annoyed at the City Council (and our esteemed mayor) for putting a cap on Uber drivers to help the taxi industry compete. My uber bill went up significantly and taxi service is just as awful as ever.
And while we're at it, why does a Manhattan resident pay a much higher property tax for the same price apartment than a resident of Brooklyn or Queens? In short, the City Council can't be trusted.
@Josh Hill
Well said. Bravo.
1
@Josh Hill "25,000 jobs at $150,000 on average. Do the math."
And you may want to do further research into other examples of what usually happens when Company X promises thousands of high paying jobs, rainbows and ice cream in exchange for millions and millions of taxpayer dollars extorted from the local rabble. The promises almost always fail to materialize, but naturally that doesn't stop politicians from cutting dumb back room deals with stinking-rich corporations and not giving the public any say in the matter. That's what the real problem is, and that's why people are wary.
3
This is a real Debbie Downer article. NYC's talent cup runneth over and that is one of the primary reasons for Amazon's NYC choice. Where was the company to go? Podunk? And physically import 25.000 to 40,000 talented people.
Metro NY's diversity and talent reservoir is part of its attractiveness to any company with talent needs - not to mention this is where a major portion of Amazons customers reside and are therefore now more accessible because of built in infrastructure. T
Furthermore this is one the rare cases where an area paying the lowest wage wasn't an advantage or determinative as to where a company opened shop. NYC should be celebrating and boasting of its competitive edge - talent and diversity. Not listening to Debbie Downers.
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@wilt
It's the subsidies Amazon will receive, not the fact that Amazon chose that location, that's the topic for debate here.
The reason I prayed they wouldn't choose Boston is that we have the talent they need--why should we pay them to come?
I agree--they never had any intention of going to "Podunk." It's hard to get talented people to move to "Podunk."
5
@wilt
They could have easily decided to set up shop in Newark, NJ, where those $150K salaries would have made a big difference. Same metropolitan area, same pool of skilled workers.
1
@wilt yes, you are absolutely right, nyc has a huge pool of talent, and Amazon should want to move here. so why are we giving them $3 billion to do something they probably would have done anyway?
3
There's a real miss here: the writer doesn't identity the decisions of private and political support are fundamental different! Each has its own context and substance, each has its own logic, each have entirely unrelated outcomes.
What is good for me, may not be good for the public, my neighbor or community. In engaging giant corporations, the convenience of shipping, a vast inventory, customer reviews and low prices may not influence my decision to challenge the public give-away of $1.7 billion of revenues--esp. if subways are fixed and local needs are continually under served.
No, Amazon is not expected to fix the subways. No, the state is not expected to give away nearly two billion dollars to a company with an equity worth of $781 billion, as it ignores those critical subway repairs. N
No, I am not a hypocrite. I would be foolish not to be able to distinguish between what is a great deal for me and a raw deal for the public--I would be foolish not to see the decisions are different and rest on different foundations.
11
For those of you who are concerned about Amazon’s phony selection process or their corrupt tax incentives...
Don’t use Amazon for the month of December. Just one month is all I ask (yes, the most important retail month of the year). Shop local, or if you need a chain retailer, at least shop in person!
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@Cousy Good idea! But I've expanded the length of my boycott - I don't ever shop at Amazon, and haven't for quite some time.
1
Of course it is "OK" to shop for everything on Amazon and not want them to have a tax break. Why should they? They're making money hand over fist with the prices they charge. Why should any municipality want to pay THEM to set up shop there. That makes no sense especially when all they create are chitty, low-paying jobs.
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@matty
Amazon's prices are remarkably low and it has taken little profit.
As to those "low-paying jobs," the average at this new facility will pay $150,000 a year.
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@Josh Hill
I wonder how those salaries will be distributed. If it’s like most big corporations, it will be millions to the top few and peanuts to the majority. Averages can be deceptive- there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
2
I’m disappointed that Amazon didn’t select an area that needed jobs and the infusion of cash they will bring. Yesterday I went into my local bookstore to buy a book. Much more expensive than Amazon but when I can buy local I will. Won’t make a dent in their hide but it’s my small protest.
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@Rmski77 - 350 Americans, even just a few Americans, each engaging in "small" protests, can indeed make a difference. Let's do it!
12
@Rmski77 Your sentiments are noble and you may live in a place where you can find locally what you want or need in a timely manner at a competitive price or a bit higher. But millions live in places where retailers lack sufficient inventory. On the other hand, if it hadn't been for a local book store owner recommendation 1,000 miles from my home, I would not have become familiar with author Greg Isles and his excellent book, Natchez Burning. I paid about $30 but it was worth it so retailers do offer value.
3
@Rmski77
How could Amazon choose such an area when those areas don't have the high tech workers they need?
Believe me, they would have chosen a lower-cost area -- just about anyplace in the country -- if they could have.
And also -- what difference does it really make? A job is a job. Amazon would be adding 25,000 jobs whether it was in Queens or Podunk.
7
I find this article a bit confounding. The city and state will receive significantly more in taxes than they have rebated. Moreover, these rebates are not at taxpayer expense, they are deducted from what Amazon would have paid if it had paid in full. As to what the city is paying to accommodate Amazon, one of the primary functions of infrastructure investment is attracting business. Finally, the only way for the city to have lost in this arrangement is for Amazon not to have come. I highly doubt Denver and Indianapolis are wiping their brow in relief.
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@Christopher Hall - "these rebates are not at taxpayer expense"
Tax receipts NOT received by the city is revenue not received by the city, revenue which either has to be obtained elsewhere (other businesses? ... taxpayers?) or which has to be compensated for by a reduction in services provided to the taxpayers.
There is also something fundamentally unfair, from a Free Market perspective, in having government favor one business over another, by offering tax rebates, subsidies, etc. ALL businesses, just like all citizens, should be required to follow the same tax regimes.
18
@Christopher Hall if Amazon didn't move in, other companies would have. and they would have paid the full tax. i really don't get why people thoughtlessly repeat this nonsense about the city and the state not really losing money in this deal. just because Cuomo said it doesn't make it true.
3
@Christopher Hall And why is it so weird to ask a company that makes billions of dollars delivering packages over our country's infrastructure to help pay to upgrade and maintain it?
2
One can love or hate a cable company ... or Whole Foods ... or dozens of other corporations (including Amazon) for a myriad of reasons. (In Amazon's case, many of us are aware that its being "disruptive" involves our making many purchases at lower-than-before prices ... AND knowing that this or that small business (bookstores, for example) will likely die of starvation as a result.
Obviously, when a local bookstore builds community, as many do, the cost-benefit calculations start to get ... incalculable.
But the NYT editorial yesterday cut through the knottiest issues like this one to the pivotal question - "If Amazon is coming to NYC because it believes that OUR (NYC's) 'workforce' will enable it to increase its profits, WHY ON EARTH should our City pay them a king's ransom to plunk down here?!"
Had Ciomo and diBlasio "just said no" when Amazon went way beyond "piggy" in the negotiations, true, they MIGHT have wound up in the Meadowlands or who knows where.
Truly, "THAT is not our problem!" Making New York City work (HQ2 IS a negative 5 different big ways) for the millions of us who call it home IS our problem, and most of us recognize that paying Amazon - in effect and in reality - $150,000 over a 5-year period to "create" a $150,000 job in NYC makes no sense.
That's not hypocrisy - it's common sense! Citicorp got millions to locate in LIC when it WAS under-everything. Now Amazon gets $1B from NYC to put new people in that SAME space. What's wrong with this picture??
21
@edtownes
Nothing is wrong with it at all. Amazon isn't getting most of that money -- most of it consists on tax rebates on revenue that the City and State *would not be collecting* if Amazon didn't move there.
The City and State are estimated to benefit economically by a ratio of 9:1 here. It's a true no-brainer.
4
@Josh Hill
The dirty little secret - that you either aren't privy to or ignore for whatever reason - is that NYC will incur lots of costs - whether there is or isn't in a written contract "the public" will ever see ... and THAT is what sealed the deal.
Nobody thinks that the #7 and the G trains are really "Amazon-worthy." Some would argue that they were "due for an upgrade," but I believe that this is like "off balance sheet financing" - what you or I might call a BRIBE more than an inducement, if it happened outside the US.
Watch for streets dug up to "upgrade" everything from sewer to fiber optic, and don't for a second think that a bill is heading toward Seattle.
Your notion that taxes that are "forgiven" isn't like giving them money strikes me as very naive. Etsy is in Dumbo, and has been in NYC for at least 5 years. Did they cut such a sweet deal?
I stand by my orig. comment - Try going into Best Buy even on Black Friday and ask them if they'll pay you something to take an IMAC off their hands? They'll laugh at you.
NYC 'was wired' here - i.e., this is where Amazon wanted to be! ... In light of that, throwing money at them - because that's what's going on here - is simply obscene.
Part of the BQE needs to be rebuilt for $20 Billion - the taxes Amazon WON'T pay are needed for "little things like that!"
Also, watch for 100 tax-paying businesses to be forced to leave LIC/NYC as AMZN ramps up, taking service & mfg. jobs with them!
3
@edtownes Actually I don't think whether the 7 and G lines are Amazon worthy will be an issue, as I suspect Amazon will be doing what other West Coast companies like it do -- provide private buses so its employees don't have to put up with the vagaries of public transit and the kind of people who ride it.
1
For years Amazon paid no sales or income taxes. Property taxes were often abated. Even today, their taxes are very low. Maybe it is time they start to pay taxes like their competitors.
71
@Mike: What competitors?
2
@Mike As far as sales tax, according to law it is the responsibility of the BUYER to pay the sales tax; those buyers who failed to remit the sales tax to their state were TAX CHEATS, not Amazon. Once online sales became huge -- eBay, Amazon, etc. -- laws and their interpretations were changed so that eBay, Amazon and every online sellers were required to collect the appropriate sales taxes and remit them to the appropriate state, county and municipality, as applicable. As far as income taxes are concerned, if there are no profits, there usually aren't any taxes owed. In its early years, Amazon didn't have significant profits.
2
@mijosc I don't know exactly what you mean by competitors, but I have recently found myself buying things I used to get from Amazon at places like walmart.com and target.com. I am talking not only about housewares, cleaning products and OTC drugs, but books, including quality classic children's books and CDs, Timex watches, all sorts of stuff. I also get my lowest prices on grocery staples (not fresh spoilable foods, but things like instant oatmeal, instant hot chocolate, Motts individual servings of apple sauce, canned Progresso soups).
1