17 years of war and nothing to show for it. Our troops have their lives in vain. No politician, from Obama to Trump has ever had the guts to tell the truth. Obama’s “Afghan Surge” was a slickly re-packaged version of the dubious Petraeus surge in Iraq, meant to cover Obama’s right. Now, Trump has inherited this mess and he can only keep it going in order to look “tough”. Hillary would have done the same.
Warren, or Harris or Biden needs to promise the American people that the U.S. will withdraw from Afghanistan. The majority of Americans will support this.
14
How many times must we re-learn the lesson that American proxies will not fight effectively against a determined enemy? The Kurds are terrific fighters because they have a cause, are brave, and only ask us for weapons. The Afghans, the South Vietnamese decades ago, and most of the American-trained forces in between do or did not believe in their "nation" or any cause, and so they quickly collapsed when left on their own. Places like South Vietnam or multi-ethnic Afghanistan cannot be Americanized, and their men have minimal or no interest in dying for American geopolitical goals. This war has to be ended; it's unwinnable unless we send 500,000 troops and occupy the place for another 20 years. Who wants that?
17
Afghanistan needs investment in its economy and work for its people to replace the income from opium. That means trade with its neighbours, especially China and Iran, and investment mostly by China.
US want to prevent that, want to keep Afghanistan as a balcony to interfere in Central Asia to obstruct the Chinese development belt towards Europe and are prepared to fight to the last Afghan.
4
Instead of continuing to defend the failed and artificial historical construct known as "Afghanistan" the US needs a radical paradigm shift that sheds the baggage of the "Great Game" mentality that we so blithely and unwittingly shouldered. We should take a page from Syria (much as it pains me to say) and redraw the map as the local tribes and factions would do. Let the chips fall where they may and pick the winners and losers where they lay. Ruthless? Yes. But it may bring more stability in the long run than this current farce that we call "Afghanistan". Without a doubt there will be those whose interests are served by the status quo and who would like to see it maintained. But let them try their luck I say. For too long, they've pulled the strings leading America by the nose whether it be from Islamabad, Tehran, Moscow, New Delhi, or Beijing. If they want to see the current order continue, let them put their necks on the line. We can pick up the pieces afterwards.
3
@SBR
Opinion and verifiable statement are marked as O and V ambiguous are marked as o/v
v
Afghanistan is a nation unlike Maryland.
O/v
There seems that Maryland maybe included on the list of commentators of artificial failed states such as Afghanistan.
v
I note that "we can pick up the pieces afterwards".
o
Thank God Maryland is not responsible for foreign policy.
o/v
Mate there Australians and Americans being in in harms way defending Afghanistan because they volunteered to do so.
o/v
Perhaps consider that US military are based at the Mexican border to repel if necessary by force "the invasion".
v
Mate whenever I make a comment I comment as an Australian first.
v
Yes I live in what was called the British Colony of South Australia.
o
There seems to be an attitude and I am open to correction that is somewhat Victorian antiquated and musty.
o/v
The first British Colonies seem to retain a crust of imperial detachment:
v
I note that "we can pick up the pieces afterwards".
v
Maryland is a wealthy state and has many great universities gifting graduates with education and skills to argue a point.
You said:
For too long, they've pulled the strings leading America by the nose whether it be from Islamabad, Tehran, Moscow, New Delhi, or Beijing. If they want to see the current order continue, let them put their necks on the line. We can pick up the pieces afterwards.
Tell the reader more about the "current order" and "they" with more v than o.
You need to check the facts first. The reference was to a historic massacre of Shiites by Sunnis. At that time there were no Shia or Sunnis.
1
Where is the interview with the actual Taliban commander or guerillas who were able to defeat the elite Afghan troops? What weapons were they using, what tactics did they use, who is funding them, where did they come from and what do they want? If they want to stop what we define as progress, why do they want to stop it and have they been asked if they can name any benefits to progress? It seems we always ask the wrong people, the wrong questions after doing the wrong things and do this repeatedly. Maybe we should be training the women to be the elite protectors, trained by the disaffected Taliban....
4
@doc007 commandos. those too motivated or too slow to defect.
There a few things that need to be added to make readers understand what is going on this country.
I have been to Afghanistan on a regular basis, doing business with the government.
The thing about the Taliban is that they have tremendous support from locals and financial support and weapons supply from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia as well as some other GCC Sunni countries.
They have neither shortage of weapons, nor of funding and certainly not of manpower.
So they are not really "insurgents" any more but just another warring faction in Afghanistan.
Seen from their local support they might as well have the same claim to the country as the government in Kabul.
As for the Afghan Army, they have become used to have others, preferably foreigners, fight for them and fund them.
They have learned that telling foreigners lies about manpower and troops will still get them more funding which then can be used for personal gain.
Most of the Afghan forces are not really motivated to fight as it is dangerous and a job for others.
Yes, there are a number of Afghan forces that still care for their country and fight for it, but they are a minority while the majority is looking for an alternative to life in Afghanistan, preferably in a place where others take care of their needs.
Afghanistan as a state is falling apart as the locals don't care any more, they take what they can get and run.
One might as well hand over the country to the Taliban and stop spending money on a cause long lost.
13
Karbala massacre, as in Iraq, another genocidal war we helped along. By siding (or, if you will, getting suckered in by the Gulf Arabs, beginning with Bush) with the Salafists we have tried to run with the hare and the hounds. Now the hounds have overtaken the hare and massacres ensue.
Better to have begun weaning ourselves back in 2000 from the ruinous, indulgent dependence on Gulf oil instead of enriching Texas oil men and military contractors for 17 years. Thanks to many but mostly thanks to the #GOPRussia.
5
@bcole: The Karbala massacre in this article refers to the historical massacre that happened about 1,400 years ago when Prophet Muhammad's grandson and his convoy were slaughtered mercilessly and permanently created the Sunni and Shia division.
3
I am not an expert or even claim to be knowledgeable about Afghan military police or militias. But from all the pictures I've seen of the soldiers in places such as NY Times, it always seems that they are poorly equipped in terms of basic things such as machine guns, body armour, patrol vehicles and basic air support. So when they are hit with a Taliban attack, they seem doomed from the start.
So then, the question arises is the US properly training and equipping these soldiers? Is reluctance to do so properly because the guns might be turned on the US soldiers? Or might the equipment fall into enemy hands? What are the reasons for such failure?
So in the end, the basic question becomes what is the US gonna do?
4
@Peter: I served two years as interpreter for US military in Afghanistan. Your observation is very accurate about the poor state of Afghan security forces.
The short answer is corruption, poor management, lack of oversight and accountability, a weak central government in Kabul that is paralyzed by its own internal fighting and political disagreements. The United States and NATO allies also share the blame for pre-maturely ending combat operations in 2014 and handing over security responsibilities to Afghan forces that were not ready for show time.
However, even sending 10 million US troops in Afghanistan will not fix the Taliban / ISIS insurgency problem as long as the sanctuaries and support networks are not directly dealt with in Pakistan. Without addressing the Pakistan issue, fighting Taliban in Afghanistan is pointless as Pakistan's military intelligence agency, ISI arms, trains and supports them in their operations inside Afghanistan. I don't have to remind you where Osama bin Laden was found hiding comfortably. American public needs to understand Pakistan is a backstabber ally
Now, you may wonder why US has not addressed this problem aggressively with Pakistan?
Few of the reasons are:
1. Majority of US military supplies flows through the Pakistani sea-port and land routes.
2. Pakistan is a nuclear armed state. Directly invading its territory to fight Taliban would cause instability leading to military or government collapsing with loose nukes in mullahs hands.
12
@Peter
US trained armies generally perform badly. Think of the South Vietnamese army in 1975, Ukrainian army since 2014, Iraqi army in 2012 and the Afghan army ever since it was set up by US.
4
The Hazaras are the descendants of the Mongolians who were sent there by Chinggis Khan many centuries ago. They are regularly persecuted in Afghan society, but as this reportage conveys, make important contributions to Afghan society.
8
@Altanzul
This is not at all true, yes there is a small number of people living in Afghanistan that are descendents of Gengis Khan but they are a different type of people to Hazaras. WE have always been in Afghanistan because we were Bhuddists before we were Shia Muslims. Tell me then who built the statues in Bamiyan consider how old they are and how long the country has been occupied by Pashtuns. Tell me why did Afghanistan's name change from Aryana to Afghanistan. Also please tell me the Pashtun and other tribes are all Sunni Muslims, and if the theory was correct how would 1000 soldiers remaining in a country of Sunnis become Shia Muslims??? Explain this to me!!!!??? When Mongolians are not 1 Muslims and the small minority that are Sunni Muslims. Pashtun people are from India and they stole our country from us, do you know that their king in the late 1800s wiped over 60% of hazaras and traded them as slaves.
Hats off to the author of this piece as well as to the photojournalist who accompanied him for their outstanding investigative reporting, something Times newspaper excels in. We who live in the West and the US are so sheltered by comparison, and the slaughter of these elite soldiers is a tragedy for which it must have been difficult for the author to find words to describe. US government should sponsor kith and kin of the slain to come to this country to show our appreciation of the sacrifices made.Those who degrade our involvement there r shortsighted, and fail to appreciate the role US forces as well as n.g.o's play in giving hope to a people who have never known a moment when the country was not involved in 1 civil war or another, the most egregious example of which was the murderous rule of Najibulla, Russian puppet who ironically was overthrown by the Taliban."Chapeau " to Mr. Nordland and his photographer, and condolences to the victims and their families.
9
Governor Sharif? Is that some kind of sick joke?
America thinking that it can install a government in Afghanistan will not make it so, no matter how many lives are destroyed in the process.
It is nothing short of nihilistic to exploit regional tribal conflicts in the way that we have, and continue to do, to further our own self-interested ends. And people thought that the war in Vietnam was a terrible mistake...
7
@ubique, I agree
The American military believes that the only way to fight a war is by using the most powerful weapons available. Your county has no concept of how to fight like a guerilla. You also have not won a single war since, and including WWII (I include WWII where the defeat of Germany was mostly attributable to Russian action before D Day).
Seriously, with a pathetic record like that, would you trust the training of your elite forces to America?
Would you be surprised when your American trained elite troops got hammered by an enemy that genuinely knows how to fight a guerilla war?
10
@GaryT
What surprises me, aside from the incurious nature of America’s bloodlust, is the fact that Erik Prince isn’t serving life in Fort Leavenworth.
5
Never fight a land war in Asia.
4
U.S. Out of Afghanistan!
10
@Stu Williams: No, U.S. leaving Afghanistan would be a major disaster. Look at how ISIS formed and came to power after US withdrawal from Iraq.
The United States not involving itself and completely abandoning Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989 set off a chain of events that led to 9/11 attacks. Abandoning Afghanistan for the 2nd time would be grave and costly mistake.
1
And not one word from US Command. The Afghan troops they train are getting killed daily, and no one wants to enlist in the Afghan forces. For years the US military continues to say 'we're making progress' with nothing to show for it. Trillions of $, thousands of American troops dead and wounded, and nothing, nothing. The election last month. And? Nothing, nothing. Trump has yet to even visit. Is the end game to [belatedly] neogtiate with the Taliban? It's certainly not bombing, think we'd have learned our lessons in SEA. It's over, Get out.
16
@Njh : No, U.S. leaving Afghanistan would be a major disaster. Look at how ISIS formed and came to power after US withdrawal from Iraq.
The United States not involving itself and completely abandoning Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989 set off a chain of events that led to 9/11 attacks. Abandoning Afghanistan for the 2nd time would be grave and costly mistake.
1
They need more troops to stand up to the Taliban. No one seems to like the Taliban.
2
@Jim To the contrary many Afghans like the Taliban, much more than the puppet regime in Kabul.
1
Why not admit to what is obvious to all? The ‘Government’ of Afghanistan rules those parts of that country that the Taliban permit it to.
4
Using special forces to stop an assault is foolishness, they rely on stealth and surprise, not direct confrontation. They are fundamentally light infantry and can be overwhelmed, especially without the substantial air support that American special forces can rely upon.
This shows that the Afghan army is in desperate straits, sending in its few highly trained troops in a suicide mission. The US would have used an airborne unit to blunt this assault with probably hundreds or thousands of men backed up with air support and constant resupply. The Afghans sent 50 commandos and 250 poorly trained police against 1000 hardened Taliban fighters. Just a waste of lives.
14
@Kenneth, look at this from another perspective.
The American military believes that the only way to fight a war is by using the most powerful weapons available. Your county has no concept of how to fight like a guerilla. You have not won a single war since, and including WWII (I include WWII because the defeat of Germany was mostly attributable to Russian action before D Day).
You might (and I say might guardedly), win a conventional war, but with a pathetic record in guerrilla conflict, would you trust the training of your elite forces to America? Would you be surprised when your American trained elite troops got hammered by an enemy that genuinely knows how to fight a guerilla war?
1
@Kenneth stop thinking about those in terms of the western militaries. entire afghan military is light infantry. sending commandos means sending troops that will not route or turn the coat at the first contact but will actually fight.
Where are the US troops? What did they discuss with the Taliban in Qatar and Russia? Who sold these innocent people and to whom? At what cost?
1
America's for-ever wars launched by Neo-Con Likudniks and Armageddon Evangelicals alongside Halliburton, Baker-Botts, Boeing, Northrup, Exxon, etc etc. We have learned nothing from Vietnam.
7
@Amit Chokshi Maybe Saudi Arabia is funding the Taliban? Somebody is.
This stuff doesn't come out of nowhere.
Its funded, planned and pushed by those with a political interest.
My gut feeling is that this is being influenced by an entity in Pakistan.
Lets not get fooled by a political player that's keen to hit emotional buttons.
This story is filled with horrific tragedy. What has happened seems utterly and brutally capricious (and it is). Why? Because someone wanted it that way. That is not a reason to give up. If the US were to pull out of Afghanistan... it can't be for something like this (can it?, can any bully get their way?).
6
Yet the profits of Exxon, Boeing and the Pritzger pharmaceutical dynasty continue to mount, which is why the US discourages Afghan peace talks. We have uber-colonized the graveyard of empires and are extracting untold oil and opium wealth for 50-100 well connected American Republicans while the misery and death continue. Our real enemy continues unabated in boardrooms and gated country clubs while our deficits mount and people are numbed to stupifaction by celebrity gossip and mindless spectacle. Rome fell from mass hubris corruption and ennui, and so shall we.
17
@Steve Fortuna-
If you set aside Kennan’s strategy to contain Russia in a “Cold War” and our Korean Peninsula garrison that defends a demilitarized Japan, our government hasn’t successfully strategized a major victory since 1943.
In terms of brevity and clarity no president has matched Roosevelt’s directive to Eisenhower when he designated him Supreme Allied Commander European Theater of Operations: “You will enter the continent of Europe and, in conjunction with other Allied nations, undertake operations aimed at the heart of Germany and the destruction of her armed forces”.
It’s easy to read “aimed at the heart of Germany” as having a geographic context. Actually, its scope is far larger. As a junior member in the Wilson Administration Roosevelt participated in policy arguments over the wisdom of accepting the German government’s offers of an armistice to end The Great War. Marshal Foch, then Supreme Allied Commander, opposed it. He declared that any armistice could be nothing more than a twenty year truce. Peace could only be secured by destroying Bismarck’s Second Reich that he created in 1870 by invading and partitioning it. To him the “heart of Germany” was a widely-held belief among Germans that it was their national destiny to rule Europe through force-of-arms. Foch believed that such beliefs had to be beaten out of them, and Roosevelt’s instruction to Eisenhower was to enter their hearts and do just that.
No such clarity exists about what we seek in Afghanistan.
4
Those who blame Trump and Bush are ignorant of History
The NY TIMES JULY 15, 2008
Politics | Text
Obama’s Remarks on Iraq and Afghanistan
"In fact – as should have been apparent to President Bush and Senator McCain – the central front in the war on terror is not Iraq, and it never was. That’s why the second goal of my new strategy will be taking the fight to al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
It is unacceptable that almost seven years after nearly 3,000 Americans were killed on our soil, the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 are still at large. Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahari are recording messages to their followers and plotting more terror. The Taliban controls parts of Afghanistan. Al Qaeda has an expanding base in Pakistan that is probably no farther from their old Afghan sanctuary than a train ride from Washington to Philadelphia. If another attack on our homeland comes, it will likely come from the same region where 9/11 was planned. "
The WAR in AFGHANISTAN was not expanded under Bush -who started it but concentrated on Iraq, not under Trump - an isolationist at heart
Its MAJOR EXPANSION was carried out under OBAMA
6
@Gerhard, there's no point in defending Bush/Cheney. The Afghanistan war should not have been started at all. After Bush started it, he should not have turned to Iraq (on false pretences) and let Afghanistan go to pot (a metaphor).
15
@Gerhard - please readThomas' response, below. The useless war was years old when Obama became president.
Were you for the surge in Iraq? That didn't work well. Who was in charge? Bush.
8
So, yet another example of failed nation building. Going on how many years now? Brings to ming the old saying. We keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results. Isn't that the definition of insanity.
As terrible is it sounds, and it certainly is, we need to either pull out and let them sort it out or come in obliterate everything that is related to the Taliban. And we know the later will not succeed. It's a religion that's been around for centuries. So the former is the only solution.
This is what happens when Socialism meets reality. Just because an idea popped in one's head doesn't mean that it can happen in the real world.
@Mark, "Socialism"? What on earth are you talking about?
The Taliban is not a religion. It represents a sect of Islam.
8
@Mark: What a lot of Americans don't know about the middle-east would fill volumes. Doesn't stop you lot going there and mercilessly and pointlessly slaughtering in an attempt to gain power and control, though, does it.
The Taliban is NOT a religion, never was, never has been. A religion that has been around for centuries? Spare me. Go do some research for goodness sake for before posting anymore misinformed and, frankly, fantastical comments.
I suppose you think ISIS is a religion, too, and all Muslims are terrorists. Yea, thought so.
4
@Mark I've have no idea why you think socialism has anything to do with whst's happening in Afghanistan. I'd love to see en explanation if your comment.
3
Not a summation, but a reflection: their souls poisoned by inherited religious beliefs and biases, these unfortunate people, by chance born in a particularly god-forsaken, unforgiving part of the world, suffer unimaginable pain, which we read about online in the relative warmth and comfort of our American homes.
If one suffers, we all suffer. I couldn't feel its meaning as a youth. But now...
8
@James: "Not a summation, but a reflection: their souls poisoned by inherited religious beliefs and biases, these unfortunate people, by chance born in a particularly god-forsaken, unforgiving part of the world, suffer unimaginable pain ..."
Are you talking about America and Christianity? You could be. There is no country in the Western world so absorbed by what you people call Christianity. I'd call it American Christianity: warped to American ideologies of power and control.
Fundamentalist Christians, which many of your country people are, are no better or worse than Islamic Fundamentalists. Don't fool yourself. In many parts of the middle-east, the Americans are considered to be the religious terrorists.
6
@Da Bushroo
Thanks for hearing me out.
1
Bomb the Taliban into oblivion. They are still responsible for 9/11.
2
@PM. Read up on thermite and learn where Cheney was on 9/11 and you'll learn the Taliban are no more responsible than Leprechauns for that attack. Follow the money, including t he opium flows, and youll5see the Taliban are a created boogeyman used to make billions at your expense
3
A massive intelligence failure. What a tragedy. And that "infidel" comment from the governor shows how deep the cultural problems are there. This isn't peaceful faith.
2
The US has no business being in Afghanistan. The war there is illegal and in violation of international standards. It is the longest war in US History. After 17 years the US has absolutely nothing to show for its efforts but thousands of dead Americans. The Taliban currently are winning the war and poised to take control of most of southern Afghanistan. US soldiers doing the fighting are overwhelmingly poor Americans - even though this a rich man’s war. While Republicans cut funding for Meals on Wheels which serves millions of elderly Americans, they obscenely increased the military budget to the highest it has ever been in the history of the nation. It now spends more on the military than China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the UK, Japan, India, France, Germany, South Korea, Australia, Italy and Brazil COMBINED.
9
@DSD: America starting a war there in the first place was a war crime, but like all the others, the US will never be punished. It won't allow it.
If you do your research, you'll find that every president since Lincoln could be easily indicted for war crimes, up to and including Obama. Yes, the hero of many Americans. His Nobel Peace Prize was a sad mistake.
Try this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpLmpoFMIgw
No need to convince me. Obama was a conservative. Obamacare was devised by Republicans in the 90s. There’s not one substantive thing Obama did that could be characterized as progressive. There was some ‘eye candy’ but nothing significant.
2
I know you will find this very strange - but the Migration Agency in Sweden considers Afghanistan 'safe'. So safe they are currently planning to deport a 13 year old boy whose Father drowned crossing the Mediterranean and whose Mother 's whereabouts are unknown.The boy has been living in Sweden,legally, for 2 years with an uncle.
Afghanistan is horrific enough without a western democracy, who have promised since 1951 Non-Refoulement, adding to the misery.
Could you believe this of Sweden?
9
I guess 800 billion dollars for the military doesn't go as far as it used to. The English and the Russians knew that Afghanistan is a country of tribes, not nationalities. It was never going to be a win for the US, except for arms manufacturers stock prices and GOP vice presidencies after retirement. The next Democratic candidate should make that one of their main goals. Get us out.
6
President Trump, get Chuck, Nancy, Mitch, and Paul over to the White House. Have Gen. Mattis present a plan for a relatively rapid, complete withdrawal from Afghanistan.
Ask them for their bi-partisan Congressional support. Assuming they agree, hold a news conference and have them right behind you when you make the announcement.
Give us all something extra to be thankful for this Thanksgiving.
3
@John: "Have Gen. Mattis present a plan for a relatively rapid, complete withdrawal from Afghanistan."
If you do some research you'll find that such plans have been presented repeatedly. The suits make too much money from people dying to stop the killing. They don't care where these people come from. Americans, Afghanis, Iraquis ... who cares? Not the people making the money.
Just ask the NRA for details. They'll know them. They're hand in glove with many American arms manufacturers.
The US is in a lose/lose situation. Everyday breeds more middle-eastern terrorists who hate America and everything it stands for. America is considered the terrorist there. None of America's business.
1
Amazing reporting. I ask my self everyday why I continue to read the Times. The paper has lost all sense of balance and objectivity. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party - then this - A story that only the NYT and its courageous reporters and photo journalists can cover. It reminds me that this is why I read the Times. Simply incredible.
6
@Dan M
Not a wholly owned subsidiary; simply a credible, informed source. What would you say about a Berlin-based paper in 1930 that attempted to "balance" their critical reporting of the Third Reich? How about a current-day Manila paper "objectively" doing the same with Duterte's murderous regime?
You're complaint re the NYT is partisan. The facts as reported are uncomfortable; easier to decry "fake news."
Hopefully your appreciation of this particular article will make it easier to entertain other reporting more contradictory to the Trump Factory's line.
12
I am afraid things in Afghanistan can get much worse in 2019, as Mr. Trump escalates US hostilities against Iran.
The Iranians, because of their religious and cultural affinities with Afghans, have been sympathetic to the current Afghan government. They have helped Afghanistan by accepting millions of refugees - created by the US invasion of Afghanistan - while themselves were under US economic sanctions (something rarely mentioned by Western media). They have also been helping the Kabul government by providing them with intelligence collected on movements of Taliban in the area, which was often passed on to the US forces.
Mr. Trump, in coordination with Saudi, Emirates, and Israeli governments, is determined to bring about the collapse of Iranian economy, forcing that country's regime to its knees. Under the new sanctions, the Iranians will no longer afford to take care of Afghan refugees and will be forced to ship them back to Afghanistan.
In the past 17 years, Taliban has been perfecting its anti-US messages, presenting the US as the source of all evils in the region. Much of their messages will resonate with returning young Afghans, who see their own repeated displacement and uprooting to be caused by the US ME policies. That means overnight the Taliban will have thousands of young, highly motivated Afghans joining its ranks. Given that the Taliban is already controlling much of the country, that puts the survival of the current Afghan government in question.
6
@Eddie B. Good analysis. More trouble is coming.
When Trump took office, the Pentagon presented him with their latest, bigliest plan for the region. Especially on how to win in Afghanistan.
Trouble was the plan was merely a rehash of the previous plans, with a little more firepower tossed in for good measure.
The results so far? We're losing most of the battles...rather the Afghan troops are. So in reality we've lost the war.
We need a Walter Cronkite to break the news to the American people, much like he did re; the Vietnam War. Someone with gravitas has to deliver the bad news, and we the people have to demand an accounting...besides a withdrawal...its time...
6
@Boregard
The entire country heard Cronkite... these days only half of the audience would hear the message.
We'd have the president calling Cronkite the enemy of the people and Fox News backing it up.
9
We're still in Afghanistan so the Taliban don't get the nukes across the border in Pakistan.
But we'll never win. We'll just keep sending arms to everybody.
5
@Jk: "We just keep sending arms to everybody." Yep, and now you know why you're still there. Arms money. The killing is a secondary inconvenience which, as usual, the US can easily overlook.
1
I have repeatedly posted over the past few years, “ We lost the Afghan War”. Enough already. It’s obvious to everyone. Admit defeat. It’s not that hard. We admitted defeat in Vietnam. There’s a whole list of defeats. We’ve been fighting the Taliban 18 years. They are clearly better than we are.
7
@Yuri Pelham Not sure they are better but......seems we have resorted to an old propaganda trick. We call Afghans Taliban attempting to show them as other than the people on general. If Afghani majorities were opposed to the Taliban they would, presumably, be winning. They are not, we are not and once again "nation building" is shown to be a great fiction. Containment may work, defeating the population will not.
3
When we were supporting the Chinese Nationalists Against Mao, almost half of everything we sent was going to the Communists. George Marshall said when the amount hit fifty percent we should cease all aid, "you can't support both sides in the same war." This looks like the same situation to me.
10
@Brendan Varley Actually you can support both sides with weapons. You make double the money on arms sales that we woiuld otherwise. The arms merchants both here and abroad make a fortune from us and other suppliers.
3
Where are the Taliban getting their arms, munitions and organizational support from? Iran? China? Russia? North Korea? The armaments and logistical supply for the Taliban that allowed at least 1,000 of them to mass and attack is provided by others. And where was the support for the Afghan Special Forces when the attack began?
The Taliban are winning against the United States and its allies in Afghanistan as surely as the Soviet forces won nothing in the 1980s. Then the Americans and the Taliban defeated the Soviets.
Afghanistan is a graveyard of foreign armies. Let it be.
It's time to bring all of our forces home and stay home. Let the Afghans, their tribes and their clans settle their differences.
The United States has no obligation to save Afghanistan from itself. There is no threat to mainland United States by Afghanistan.
Bring our forces home. Leave Afghanistan. We can't win and neither can anyone else. There will be blood shed there for another 1,000 years.
9
The threat to our nation is in the White House and Capital Building. Our government is destroying the United States of America. The Taliban are irrelevant.
15
@Jay
You left out Saudi Arabia. The Taliban are Sunni, as are Al Qaeda.
Never for a minute forget how much money various Saudis channel to Sunni extremists. MBS has not stopped that - despite all the rhetoric to the contrary.
15
@Jay
The Taliban probably get their arms--and more--from Pakistan. Pakistan has a long history of using terrorists as just another weapons system. Pakistan protected the Taliban after 9/11, and continues to do so today.
But we are wedded to supporting Pakistan because we can't get into Afghanistan any other way. Unless, of course, we had normal relations with Iran, the same Iran that supports terrorism far less than does Pakistan. The same Iran that does not have a nuclear weapons program, while Pakistan has several hundred nukes.
10
USA is responsible for all the bloodshed in Afghanistan. It has occupied that country for 17 years. And has failed to bring peace. The only thing that is prosperous is business of opioid under the occupation of USA.
5
And Donald Trump is silent.
So are the American commanders in Afghanistan and the Pentagon.
12
One more American military failure on a very long list.
9
Such huge costs in lives and treasury and all for nothing. We should have pulled out of Afghanistan when bin Laden escaped from Toro Bora telling the Afghans we would come back and do it again if they installed another radical terrorist-supporting government.
4
Exactly. We’ve handed a spectacular victory to Osama by virtue of our prolonged futile, dysfunctional, self-destructive response. How many more of our children will we sacrifice?
5
Why are we still in Afghanland? The Taliban clearly have the control of the Countryside. We cannot root them out.
4
Only the dead have seen the end of war, apparently. I am just so sad for these Afghanis...they are an amazing people. So sad for those commandos who were killed.
Is there no hope? It wanes with all we are seeing now.
8
There has never been hope, except for hoping to win a billion dollar lottery draw. Those were the odds going in. Who will have the guts to withdraw. Until then our youth should at all costs avoid military service. The Borderline shooter was trained in Afghanistan. So that’s something.
3
Just replace Afghanistan with Viet Nam and its associated pro-nouns and we are back to the past with the same results - AMAZING.
5
We should have pulled out of Afghanistan immediately after we captured Bin Laden. It's military and political hubris to think we can export our democracy to third world countries that have neither the same values nor the political will to maintain it. When is Congress ever going to reign in Presidents and military leaders that think they can. Vietnam, Iraq & Afghanistan....will we ever learn our lesson?
5
@common sense
Yes...but then we have a guy like Bolton (and Graham) whispering in Trumps ear about Iran...and how we can fix them with very little effort...
4
@common sense
We spent about 10 years in Afghanistan mucking about while trying to "capture" Bin Laden (who turned up in Pakistan).
2
@common sense We never captured Bin Laden. We assassinated him in Pakistan.
1
I was born in a town in this lovely place, although there is less infrastructure in this District but the people are very peaceful and educated, it is very hard for a father to support his children and send them to school in Afghanistan but despite that our fathers tries their level best, works on farms and save every single pennies to send us to school, I personally lost many of my relatives in this wars and we are really really tired of war, our people wants to live in peace with their families and children, we also want to breath and have the chance to live.
these people are innocent, they just want peace, please wake up #UN and do something for us, we are being target killed in Afghanistan and Pakistan, this is a clear Genocide of Hazara people, if not at least don't send those Hazara refugees who are seeking asylum for a better life and not being killed anymore...
19
I blame president Ghani for all these massacres and failures.
In places where the afghan army gets the upper hand; Ghani asks them to retreat because Ghani never wants pashtoon Taliban to be defeated by an army which mainly is of non Pashton soldiers.
It is an ethnic fighting in which our president openly and clearly takes sides with Taliban. If the status qou is not changed; Afghanistan is going through a very dark pages of its history.
4
From the way this is described, it appears that the Afghan government is both corrupt and ineffective in even managing the internal affairs of that country.
After all the time, lives and money expended, it seems we have accomplished nothing.
Time to bring our people home and stop wasting resources on that sad country.
6
The United States should take in everyone in Afghanistan who is not associated with ISIS and doesn't want to live under the Taliban. Then it should get out.
4
I wasn't at all surprised to see Rod Nordland's byline for this article. I remember him at Penn State Ogontz as a fellow student. At the main campus he was writing articles for the Daily Collegian exposing mob activity. From following his career in journalism, he never seems to have shirked from dangerous assignments.
6
Why is it that the Taliban continues to be funded and supplied by Pakistan, who is funded and supplied by the US? You can't just shrug and say oh those people are so different. We are part of the mess, and have been for many decades. Obviously, nobody in our military-industrial complex wants to deal with it.
11
@AG I'm sure we make a lot of money off of it in arms sales.
1
..the picture is so sad - terror continues now for decades in Afghanistan - decades.
We must leave Country....completely; we have no business there; it's not a threat to our national security.
The war in Afghanistan has cost US taxpayers over $1 trillion dollars - most Americans can't even visualize how much money that is.
The US military has lost thousands of soldiers lives - yet continues to convince our government to continue the senseless war.
There is no winning in Afghanistan - only losing - the Taliban and the corrupt Afghani government will continue fighting for decades and decades....long after we're gone.
4
There must be some big economic payoff for some very important people or this would not be happening. Are there vast mineral resources here? Or is it just the eternal payday for those who are getting well paid for doing this?
3
Many of the comments here seem to miss the point of why we intervened in Afghanistan in the first place. You'll recall it's because the Taliban-rulers hosted and supported al-Qaida who succeeded in blowing up 3000 Americans in New York and Washington DC (and Pennsylvania). It's certainly true that the Bush administration erred badly in largely abandoning Afghanistan militarily and marching off to a needless war in Iraq but the fact remains that if we abandon Afghanistan again it will fall to the Taliban and Islamic fundamentalism. What are the bets that we'd back within 5 years of leaving - 10 tops?
Insurgencies are hard to fight particularly, as in Afghanistan, where the insurgents have a safe haven, in this case Pakistan. But I see little evidence that most Afghans yearn for the Taliban's embrace, especially the women and young girls.
This is a difficult and long struggle. It doesn't mean we should give up.
8
@NJB
As long as Trump shows no leadership the situation will only get worse. When did you last hear him mention Afghanistan?
Trump has already given up.
2
I've said this a couple times yet our overlords do not pay attention. Watch Lawrence of Arabia. If we follow the script, thousands of American lives can be saved. If not, we will continue to be a part of history. Not the good part either.
2
They do not want us in their country.
Get Saudis to rein in Sunni extremism against Shiites and others; maybe then there'd be a chance to stop the bloodshed.
Or is this also about mineral rights, a gas pipeline or other such as we mourn the slaughter? Where would we even find the answer.
9
The American trained "Elite Troops" are traitors to most Afghans - quislings, bought and paid for by a foreign power that has insulated them for 17 years
In 2006, The Economist wrote
The insulting Americans
"The search tactics of American troops in Afghanistan, five years after they invaded the country, tend to offend on all counts. By forcing entry into the mud-fortress home of a Pushtun, with its lofty buttresses and loopholes, they dishonour his property. By stomping through its female quarters, they dishonour his women. Worse, the search may end with the householder handcuffed and dragged off before his neighbours: his person disgraced. America and its allies face a complicated insurgency in Afghanistan, driven by many factors. But such tactics are among them.
His honour besmirched—and here's the problem for the Americans—a Pushtun is obliged to have his revenge, or badal.
Pushtunwali's principles have not changed in centuries—certainly not since they were recorded by Victorian ethnographers,
https://www.economist.com/special-report/2006/12/19/honour-among-them
9
@Talesofgenji Hi. Agree that military approaches are not likely to solve the problem. Agree also that the foreign trained Afghan troops are not effective, but I suspect is it mostly because they themselves don't want to apply western techniques.
The Sunni Taliban, by contrast, believe wholeheartedly that Allah wants them to kill Hazara Shia.
As for our responsibility/duty: I don't know. We were more than happy to use Sunni fighters to challenge the Soviets. We turned a blind eye when these fighters became the Taliban and put Afghanistan back into the dark ages. We didn't do anything when the Taliban allowed Osama bin Laden to set up shop in Afghanistan. After 9/11, we defeated the Taliban (unfortunately not devoting enough USG forces, which had the effect of allowing Osama to escape.)
We also undertook large scale assistance to Afghanistan right after winning the 2001 war, but pulled back to focus on Iraq. So we were involved in a major way in setting the stage for this mess.
4
As PR Vanneman and others posting here earlier have noted, our military has been reduced to a constabulary charged with protecting President Trump from an implacable army of hundreds of elementary school children advancing on this country from the south. His cowardice and prejudice must be placated no matter what the cost to the country. While other leaders from across the Western world gathered to recognize World War I Donald Trump reportedly sat in his room playing with his Tweet. Thousands of American soldiers died in the muck, mire, cold, and terror of those 18 months but the president could not deal with some rain. More likely he could not face the disappointment and scorn of his counterparts. Perhaps I do not give him sufficient credit; perhaps he was making plans to fortify the White House against the oncoming hordes of Honduran children, a last line of defense afterr they overrun American troops and march triumphantly through Kentucky. At this point sending American troops to Jaghori seems pointless because even if momentarily successful there unless we are prepared to garrison Afghanistan for generations, in the process creating more and more Taliban, there is no clear end game. And all of this begs the question of how, after nearly a generation of war, the Taliban have the resources and command structure to mass 1000 fighters for such an assault. Withdraw to Fortress America to defend Mar-A-Lago against foes of golf courses and compulsive Tweeting. Stop the kids!
30
@usa999 999 (kosher butcher?) ahhhh. who washes dishes in the kitchens of Mar-a Lago? Mows the Bermuda Grass? Makes the beds? I rest my case.
2
Thanks to the reporters for this unvarnished picture.
From what I saw in Afghanistan (including Bamiyan, another Hazara area) and the former Soviet Central Asian countries, we just don't know how to train or equip people from vastly different cultures. All that we teach is just so very different from local culture and organizational principles. Trainees want to be agreeable and to receive stipends (peanuts to us; life-altering to them), but they don't want (or can't) adopt our ways of thinking and doing things.
Given that our military and police training doesn't work and we don't want to insert USG soldiers to stop the slaughter, what do we do? Watch innocent non-combatants be killed just because they are Hazara Shiites? I don't have any answers.
I've often thought that ISIS appeared out of the blue because personnel based Washington DC actually believed field reports and thought that we had trained Iraqi soldiers well. In fact, I bet that all we did was transfer pittances to trainees and far larger amounts to contractors (Beltway bandits) administering the programs.
24
Afghanistan: Graveyard of Empires. Why. are. we. still. there?
32
@Joe Bedell, so we can have a graveyard for our empire, which appears to be suiciding at the behest of the military-industrial-billionaire complex.
1
The part about us winning the war got left out.
7
@TheUglyTruth because it is not happening
1
Are you suggesting that not only can't
we win a war, we can't train others to win one?
5
@Antoine, we can't train. We trained and
equipped south Vietnam army. It collapsed
quickly in N Vietnam's invasion. We still
haven't learned. Training has become
a rationale for drawdown without losing
the face but losing the territory and local lives.
2
@s.khan American even trained Iraqi army--and look everyday the country is disintegrating and in complete chaos.
1
Training accomplishes very little when it’s not tailored to local social and cultural systems. And you can’t force people to adopt the larger goals of the instructors.
Note in the article how the Afghan govt resists arming the local militia groups, even though that’s the structure of things in the region.
Local militias may in turn not have worked with the 50 commandos who were flown in.
What were 50 commandos supposed to do against 1000 Taliban fighters, with only 250 or so local police and militia to support?
Training will mean little if these common breakdowns of cooperation and coordination go on.
The Taliban seem to be organized and focused on a common goal. Their opponents need to match them in that.
2
600,000 people waiting and watching 50 commandos attempt to save them. It appears that until the resident population decides to organize and fight with and alongside those commandos there is no hope.
31
@JF Shepard, the government refused to let them have the equipment, i.e., weapons, a militia would need.
2
As a former U. S. Army officer, I cannot imagine getting shipped off to do political bidding in Afghanistan, Syria or Iraq. I simply cannot see the point of getting neck-deep in these Arab religious/political wars that have been continuously waged for more than 1,000 years.
One would surmise that someone in Washington must have studied the history of the Middle East. Obviously, it wasn't Trump, Bush, Rumsfeld or Cheney.
Count me out on Veterans Day.
25
@Political Genius
you skipped right over the other military genius' Obama and Hillary...not so much a genius as you are an ideologue...
5
@Political Genius How quickly you lose the discussion when you omit Obama.
2
Obviously.Obama had 8 years to extricate and failed. Eight years!,
3
Read "War on Peace" by Ronan Farrow, and you can see some of the reasons for this unmitigated disaster. Successive US governments have allowed policy towards Afghanistan to be determined by military priorities, and now we are at a point where even from a military stand-point there is little to show as proof of any success, and plenty of lives, including innocent Afghan civilians, have been lost.
4
This war sounds more and more like Vietnam. Why is the US drawn into supporting corrupt and incompetent governments? It's clear that the Taliban are getting outside military support (thanks to Putin, probably). But the Afghan government is getting even more support from the US. The simple explanation, like in the days of Saigon, Diem and Thieu - that government is too corrupt to actually use the support for other than personal aggrandizement of upper level officials and local power brokers. The result - an Afghan military that is not capable, and government services that don't reach 90% of the country.
6
American attempts to manage Afghanistan, like the previous attempts by the British and Russians, are and must continue to be a total failure. When will that truth sink in? Are the 17 years since 2001 not enough?
12
While USA's commander in chief is deploying 15000 troops to defend from an invasion of primarily women and children now 1700 miles south of the US-Mexico border, USA's ally and client state of Afghanistan is being defeated by the Taliban who are equipped with the best US and Russian military equipment. Although Trump's response will be to criticize the NYT's reporting, it won't help the US and the unfortunate communities that are now being overrun by the Taliban, looks like Trump is going to lose another war for the USA, but he will probably win the battle of Juarez.
7
If one of the "moderates" fighting the Taliban says things like "Even infidels would not do this" -- then we know that Afghanistan is a hopeless mess saturated with toxic Islamic extremism on all sides.
8
In 1979, when the Soviet Union ruled Afghanistan, the insurgent mujahideen began a guerrilla war against the Soviet Army & its puppet Afghan regime. The mujahideen were supported (and subsdized) by the United States. In 1989 the mujihadeen defeated the Soviets & drove them out. The mujihadeen then split into tribal factions, with the strongest, smartest and most fierce becoming the Taliban.
Thus, the Taliban is a creation of Amerca, just as, say, Hamas--built by Jerusalem to undercut the PLO--is a creation of Israel.
As the old saying goes, "Be careful what you wish for."
The US has now been in Afgnaistan for 17 years, and either will stay there for decades more, or, like the British, like the Soviets, will be driven out in humiliation.
To the American men & women who fought there (& the 2700 who died there, and the 21,000 wounded there), and to the their families, my humblest, deepest apologies.
28
This is tragic, and there is no real way to make things better. I went to Afghan-Pak border x3 between 85-90. US aid went thru Pakistan intelligence to radical Afghan parties. Saudi funded madrassas educated sons of Afghan fighters to become Taliban. No one paid any attention in the 90's after Soviets withdrew. Secular Afghan parties wiped out during civil war during 90's. Resources diverted from Afghanistan to Iraq after 9/11. All consequences of inability of US policy makers to look past next election cycle, that has not changed
10
This isn't a Democrat or Republican issue. The Pentagon doesn't speak clearly about it. They act as if victory would nail the thing shut, and we could depart. But that's not what history shows.
When the U.S. intervenes overseas, it has to be prepared to leave troops behind. After WWII, they were left in Germany, Japan, and elsewhere, for generations. After Korea, they're still there. After Vietnam we abandoned the place, and look what happened.
All of a sudden Americans believe that in real wars you finish the enemy off and leave. That's never the case. Half our domestic problems are due to the fact that Union soldiers left the south too quickly after the Civil War.
We're a country of poker players, ready to fold if the hand isn't good. Not surprising that we elected a casino owner President.
13
@Brian
" After Vietnam we abandoned the place, and look what happened."
You lost me there. Vietnam is now a thriving
country. Not perfect, for sure, but doing well and developing a tourism industry.
The war in Afghanistan is our longest ever, and most horrid outcome. Imagine if we put all the outsources there that we wasted in Iraq? We probably would be gone now.
2
Great boots on the ground, first person reporting at considerable personal risk. Real journalism. Thank you for that. It will be interesting to read further reporting (without being in imminent danger hopefully) about the cause(s) of the increasingly absurd disconnects between the Kabul government, the provincial governments, and the US military commend, which in the tradition of our higher military commands since Vietnam, seems to be intoning the mantra that everything will be OK.
10
I am from Jaghori, currently finishing up my undergraduate in Vermont. If there was a place in Afghanistan that I could draw parallels with Vermont's peaceful and pastoral countryside, it would be Jaghori. Life is very simple there. People live off the land; grazing their sheep on hillsides, and harvesting almond and wheat crops. From this meager income, they send their children to school. Jaghori has the highest per capita entrants to Afghanistan's competitive national universities. It's one of few places where girls can ride bicycles, attend school and universities. In many ways, it embraces all of the ideals the United States have wanted to bring to Afghanistan, yet the place has been so ignored by the Americans and the Central Government for the past two decades -- as evident in the article. I have always been puzzled as to why the government and the U.S. have not nurtured places like Jaghori and promote it as a model for the rest of the country. Instead, are leaving it to fall into ruins. The fall of Jaghori will be the dying of the last beacon of hope in Afghanistan.
98
@Farid
I am so sad for you and your people. I am so puzzled, too, why our policies in Afghanistan have not nurtured this place.
Can we the people help in any way?
6
@MJB
Thank you for your kind feelings. I hope more people in this thread recognized us in the way that you do.
Regarding your question, please, if it's not a huge ask, bring this issue to the attention of your representatives. I just hope Congress picked up on the issue, and resumed the conversation on Afghanistan, but resume in light of the importance of not losing places like Jaghori.
8
@Farid
Of course I will be glad to do so, and I am pleased that we have new representatives in Congress from Arizona who will listen.
4
I was born and grew up in Hotqul and i have every day contact with friends and family members there. Unfortunately we are the ones who have suffered the most from Taliban. From every village in Hotqul we have lost 3 to 30 men since the beginning of attack on Jaghori. Our people have got only AK47 with limited stock of bullets while Taliban are equipped with latest models of US Made weapons and russain made military night vision cameras. All the attacks were done during the darkness of nights. Taliban are both very high in numbers and high with latest warfare guns. We had been asking for help from government but their help arrived. Finally the gov sent some 30 commandos but they all were stationed in A mosque and we fed them for two nights. When locals asked them to participate in front line their reply was we haven't received orders from kabul yet. Finally after two nights of stay they moved to front line but sadly all of them along with 15 local men were all killed that night. Should the govnmt sent more support to locals or provided air support to Commandos, we would not have experience this tragic end.
Even now i talked to a friend 3 hours ago he said no army were present in Hotqul . He said only a helicopter which was flying in Hotqul after lunch time left the area in the evening.
52
@Ryan
Ryan, I am so sad for those in the path of Taliban...this is a beautiful place you and others describe. Is there anything we the people can do?
4
The vast majority of American citizens want to abandon this disaster immediately, the generals and politicians know that victory is impossible, yet we persist in wasting money and lives. There must be a reason but I can't fathom it.
22
@Grunt Because when you break it you own it.
2
@Brian It was already broken.
Terrifying article. No U.S. support? Too busy mobilizing to stop a caravan of unarmed women and children on the southern border? The very definition of cowardice. But what can you expect when a coward leads the country? USA! USA! indeed.
83
This world has a problem few wish to address: the propensity for men to be drawn to violence and oppression of others.
We see it all over the world, even in the United States. Many of the problems in this world trace directly to abhorrent male behaviour.
Inevitably, the losers are women and children.
14
This obviously is a war between the legitimate government and the Taliban and matters are getting worse by the day. Certainly very tragic for innocent lives lost and constant fears throughout that country. But what is the western world, especially the US, doing there? Billions wasted, lives lost constantly these past 17 years but why!
27
this is all a way for foreign interests to profit from what is really a battle in a centuries long religious war.
that the conflict, being basically religious, is unwinnable is what makes it such a great profit opportunity.
why are we STILL there, other than money? because China may get first dibs on extraction of Afghanistan's mineral wealth?
2
@rudolf
There is no legitimate government, never has been and never will. Afghanistan isn't a country. Never has been, never will be. A corrupt coalition of tribes all looking out for their own goals. All untrustworthy as demonstrated on an almost daily basis.
17 years we've been there and are failing just like all of the others before us. At least they were smart enough to leave. But not us. Just one more surge, right, Pompeo?
6
Perhaps because Afghanistan gave refuge to Osama BinLaden and the 9/11 attack was planned in that country? Seems to me that the vast majority of American conflicts are contrived. But the war in Afghanistan needs to conclude with an assurance that something like 9/11 can never be mounted from that geographic location again.
3
What exactly is it that the US wants to achieve in Afghanistan? The answer seems very unclear now that bin Laden is gone/dead. The USA should never have put troops on the ground there.
Democracy will never work in a tribal country that does not have an educated populace, an accountable justice system and a foundation based on the Judeo-Christian ethic.
4
@M. -- Democracy can work just fine without the Judeo-Christian ethic. See Japan, as one example. This isn't just about being Muslim, much as haters would find it useful to make it so.
30
Japan is about as removed from a Islam influenced or dominated culture as one and get.
3
@Mark Thomason
Can you enlighten the rest of us and the policymakers in D. C. in simple declarative sentences as to why the
U. S. military has been fighting a war in Afghanistan for 17 years that even top military commanders agree is unwinnable?
3
An entire district undefended. Under attack by 1,000 men. They send 50 to help. Just 50.
Nothing else could be expected. Hoping for better would be magical thinking.
An informal local militia led by a local hero of a war 40 years ago is not a "force." It is more like our volunteer police auxiliary. They can keep watch unless it gets too hard. The local police are not a "force" either, especially when it is 250 men in an entire district.
In the picture, it seems to be a neat, well-kept little farm community. It shows no layout of a defensive posture as seen elsewhere in Afghanistan.
Why did war come to them? We had to get al Qaeda and bin Laden 17 years ago? Then the Taliban was the local government, and this place was peaceful.
7
A major Mid Term election in the US and not one candidate mentions the Afgan War!? How cab this be??
46
@DILLON
The voters know what the politicians are afraid to admit. We have no business sending our troops and treasure to Afghanistan for the past 17 years.
1
Looks like Taliban is winning.
What exactly do we want to achieve there? Destroy the Taliban? Put in a democratic government? or revenge for the 911?
Do we have to be there? for how long?
9
I commend the brave NY Times reporters who made a dangerous trip to this hot-fire zone of conflict. Here they are, explaining the basics of the engagement, down to boots and shoulder patches on dead soldiers. These are the types of granular facts that, when added up, crystallize into a story. This is exactly the kind of reportage -- the fundamental effort to find facts and deliver basic information -- that keeps me paying that monthly subscription fee. Bravo to the front-line journalists, and... please stay out of the way of flying lead.
229
@Arctic Fox -- Yes, but it is new, news, after 17 years of war. For 17 years we did not need to know?
6
Thank you Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney. Trump will just make it worse.
46
@Sparky Don't forget Colin Powell!
5
@Todd S.And, of course. Obama
1
Don't know why we bother to stay. It's a whole different world there. The Afghans don't have the will or the means to stand up to a group like the Taliban. Too many of them are Taliban sympathizers. We should stop wasting our resources and soldier's lives there. We got Osama and a lot of his buddies.
We're done there. Yes, there will be a slaughter of innocents and people who sided with us when we leave but nothing we could do is going to prevent that. The Taliban will take over again. The Afghans will just have to live with it.
10
a lost cause.. doesn't anyone remember a country called vietnam???
31
Sooo, whilst reading Ghost War by Steve Coll, my first question would be if anyone has considered asking the Iranians, the Saudis or Pakistan about where the Taliban are getting money and weapons...?
“The word is about, there's something evolving,
Whatever may come, the world keeps revolving...
They say the next big thing is here,
That the revolution's near,
But to me it seems quite clear
That's it's all just a little bit of history repeating.”
4
@Mat -- It isn't from Iran. They are co-religionists with the people being slaughtered here.
8
Oops, of course they are. Iran is Shia, Taliban is Sunni. Apologies, sudden brain fade.
I think we can assume that the Taliban will be getting support from locals or else they would not be able to grow in numbers and spread as rapidly.
It seems like the world is generally shifting to the right and toward extremism. As per Trump and others.
"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
Afghanistan is lost. It was lost by the British, then by the Russians, and now by the USA. I have no answers as to what would be needed to stabilize the country, but Afghanistan was lost the moment American boots stepped into this "hellhole"!
23
After all the wars for various commodities why this war? Rare Earths.
2
Meanwhile, in lesser heard news. Russian delegates are meeting for "peace talks" with the Taliban. No other delegations from NATO or GIRoA where there. Sounds like reminiscent of other activities the Russians have taken... like in the mid - late 60's ish. Afghans are good people subjected to the Talibans murderous and savage interpretation of Islam. There was a time when the world had the stomach to understand throwing a Taliban fighter/supporter out of a helicopter at 800 feet sent a message and solved a problem before it gets out of hand; when people understood that diplomacy is ideal but sometimes it will just never work. Many Afghans remember that, but global scrutiny is misdirected and prevents Afghans from solving their own problems in a manner that is suitable to them.
1
@Rob B -- So, we have not been violent enough, and have not killed enough? That is the problem in Afghanistan? They lack the stomach to kill?
5
And Trump has troops in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas waiting for unarmed asylum seekers? Afghanistan is where they should be sent, indeed they should demand to go to Afghanistan, instead of lying in wait (playing cards and touch football) for bedraggled, harmless innocents.
4
@RioConcho
No !!!
No more American troops in these senseless conflicts! Enough of them died already to no good end.
7
@RioConcho
send your kid
not mine
4
It is impossible to win guerilla warfare without an overwhelming commitment of resources, not just troops but also building an infrastructure that gives a huge incentive for the local population to not cooperate with insurgents. The US will never be willing to make that kind of investment and the Afghan government lacks the necessary resources. The best outcome for Afghanistan at this time is stagnation and continued warfare without the Taliban able to take control of Kabul and other major cities. The worst is for the Taliban to actually take over. That will not bring peace, as the majority of the population is opposed to the Taliban, just switch who will be engaged in guerilla warfare.
7
@serban
The U.S. poured many millions of dollars into infrastructure...does anyone remember the chicken processing plant? Greed, corruption and endless war meant those dollars (and lives) were wasted. Someone mentioned Vietnam...remember how we feared communism? Perhaps we should let the cards fall where they may, sure, the Taliban may prevail and result in a lot of misery, but in time, possibly sooner than we think, they will be seduced by wealth, and the Afghan people will continue their slow march into the 21st Century. Some day the whole world will be amazon, google, and alibaba.
1
I was born in this place! We suffered, but thank god we fled and found new life in Australia. For 12 years I’ve been living in pain watching me fellow brothers and sisters getting slaughtered day in day out.
There is no government to help! There is no humanity. Everything that is happening in Afghanistan is a western political game. Unfortunately the western media portrays everything otherwise. Hundreds of people get murderd every week. Why is that not worthy of a headline news in western media?
108
@Safari - Looking back at the British experience on the Northwest Frontier the current situation doesn't seem a lot different. A sizeable portion of the population has been looking for a fight, any fight as what seems like the national sport. They asked the British for Northwest Frontier Medals since they had a role in the fighting.
Explain why the problems in Afghanistan are a "western political game", because I don't see the west and the Russian at the root cause. And then suggest a practical westen policy to end the fighting.
15
@Safari I am sorry this has happened to you. I teach Afghan refugees here in the States and I can truly say they are the kindest and most loving people who do not deserve what has happened to them. They too grieve for what is happening to their families back home. God bless you.
38
@Ellen Burleigh Thank you Ellen, all we want is peace! Opportunity and equality.
2
Why is the Taliban not going away? What is the reason they're still around after so many years? Could someone shed light? Thanks.
2
@Todd S.The Taliban are Afghanis.They were in power until the US led other factions in their overthrow in 2002.This is a civil war.
8
@Todd S.
They live there, most are members of the Pashtun tribe.
10
@Todd S.
Great question, Todd! This is fifteen years after "Mission Accomplished"!
4
Thank our Pakistani allies (less of an ally these days) for this continued bloodshed.
They have built a home-grown industry of rearing snakes in their back-yard and exporting it out to Afghanistan and India.
Some of these snakes come back and bite Pakistan as well, and then they ask for sympathy for lives lost in fight against terrorism.
I wish Afghanistan would see some peace.
66
@Mehul Shah
Excuse me, is this your analysis of a complicated and complex question? Blame on Pakistan or someone Five millions of Afghans were sheltered, fed and camped in Pakistan since 1978. Only rich and literate class left for western countries. And the reward we got is terrorism brought to its land, continuous taunts, ethnic. religious strife, klashinkov culture, drug and its aftermath. We are fed up with this brotherly love. This was not our war to start iwth. 50,000 of our bravest soliders died, at least 100,000 civilian populatin died. Our cities are crumbled with refugees, our agricutlure products are smuggled across Afghanistan as they prefer to grow poppy and opium only. USSR, America, Britian could not subjugate Afghanistan, and you are alleging if Pakistan had such dreams?
3
@Malik & Mehul Shah, you are both right. The people of Pakistan are not the ones Mehul Shah accuses; it's the connivance of the ISI and the army that maintain their power and control (even when a government is elected) by constantly provoking or undermining their neighbors. The people of Pakistan are then among the victims when civil society deteriorates and is replaced by religious fanaticism, favored by the military (especially since General Zia-ul-Haq) as a means of keeping the people from uniting against military rule.
I know this is very simplified, but I've been watching Pakistan for a long time and I fear degradation of the society as intolerance and bigotry grow stronger. It is also not only in Pakistan; e.g., there is a similar but less powerful Hinduist movement in India and I hope it doesn't succeed there.
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It is a consequence modern day Ghazis from ISI and Pam Army who want to have strategic depth without strategic brain.It is difficult to defeat Guerilla army who are supported from outside and given sanctuary.If Talban wins there will be massacre of Shias,Tajiks,Uzbeks and Hazaras.The cauldron created will surpass Ruwanda and civil war in Yugoslavia.It will create fundamentalist nuclear state in Pakistan. It will flare up the terrorism in Kashmir.When people are taken over by extremist religious ideology they lose humanity.
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There is a huge (for me) disconnect here. The story states that Jaghori has 600,000 people. But the photo of Jaghori accompanying the story shows a series of one-story buildings scattered across a valley that can't possibly support 600,000 people. Even if the photo is showing a sliver of the outskirts of Jaghori, the infrastructure to support a larger population doesn't exist. It looks more like an outpost than a population center.
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@Luke
"...safest rural district, Jaghori" means that it is not a city. The country is divided into provinces, and provinces into districts. Then there are towns in these districts.
@Luke Jaghori is largely a rural area over a vast area, with a small center called Sang-e Masha.
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1000 Taliban invading on pickup trucks? Seems like a couple US A10 Warthogs would make quick work out of them.
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@Jay Lincoln I found myself wondering if air support would have changed this situation. But who knows what the rules of engagement are? None of this makes sense unless it is true that there are valuable commodities under the ground in Afghanistan
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I recall President-elect Trump bragging that "he and his generals" would come up with a solution to the Afghanistan War in 30 days.
Almost two years later and the Afghanistan meat-grinder continues, "terrorism" continues and America's military industrial complex gets wealthier.
Stop endless wars abroad. Use America's military to protect our borders, not in 80 nations across the globe.
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No officer corps ever lost a war...Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
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The US and the Afghan government have long since lost this war after who knows how many wasted billions and how many unnecessary deaths, both civilian and military. Why are we still engaged after 17 years? Some group is profiting mightily at the expense of US taxpayers and the Afghan people. Trump lied about getting out; Obama and the Generals lied about progress and the Generals continue to lie about progress even while our presence in the country ensures ever more Taliban recruits.
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Thank you for taking the risks necessary to report this story from the ground and up close. My heart aches for these people, who just want the simple gift of safety to go about their lives and educate their children.
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@CP
I’ve heard this sentiment before, about people wanting nothing but peace, but I begin to wonder if that isn’t just a platitude. As someone else has pointed out, there are 600,000 residents in this area, the Taliban sent a force of 1000 or so, the Kabul government sent in 50 commandos – if the people of Afghanistan really wanted peace it seems like out of that 600,000 people there would be a force sufficient to keep things from going the way they have gone. My conclusion - the people of Afghanistan actually do not want peace.
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@Pete ... So your theory is that because an area does not maintain a fighting force it means they do not want peace? What a very odd viewpoint.
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@Pete, the article states that the government would not provide supplies for a local militia.
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