I really liked most of this but I can't find anything about naps. Am I missing it? (The naps part was why I came here; eager to complain about millennial co-workers LOL.) Why does it seem like anyone under about 30 thinks the office is a continuation of daycare, with naps, snacks, and dress-up (I mean dress-up as in costume) events practically every day? I am tired of the lack of dignity and professionalism in the workplace. I have young co-workers who simply do not know how to behave in an office. If they have a lull in work, they sit at their desks reading novels, or walking around the office in circles. They keep ridiculous hours and call out sick openly admitting they had too much to drink last night. It is embarrassing. They think they are supposed to be entertained and cared for. And they expect to be on a "career path" that is laid out for them, rather than earned.
24
@DW My first job after college was at Grumman Aircraft. All the old(er) men had bottles hidden in their desks and took afternoon naps at their desks every day. It was an interesting experience.
10
@DW Naps due to excess alcohol are one thing. Breaks to get your mind out of a single track are another.
Recall the (probably apocryphal) story of Levi Singer and how he put the eye of the needle at the tip and not the top making the high speed sewing machine possible. That came to him in a dream.
Some people can perform at, or near, peak all day. Some others have better times and worse times. Considering that performance is what counts, naps (or the ability to take 20 minutes off in peace and quiet) revitalize many.
There are people who actually do their best creative work out of the office. Swapping 20 minutes of snooze at work for hours of good brains at home seems like a wise investment.
see also Pomodoro Technique
8
@Jonathan Jaffe and Donna H,
I basically agree. Just seen in context with the general attitude of a lot of millennials, it irked me. I do agree that Americans work too hard, the workplace is too rigid, and that a longer midday break, more in the European style, would be a good thing. I still find it a bit jaw dropping when people are basically asleep at their desks. I come from the generation that believed you should at least LOOK busy, even if you were effectively propping your eyelids open, or if you can't cope, you go hide in the bathroom for a few minutes.
The motto was, Don't bleed in the water, i.e. don't give them any excuse to fire you, suspect you of slacking, or think less of you. If they institute an actual, official siesta, or perhaps lengthen lunch to an hour and a half, I'm all for it.
6
I really hated this column. Either give good advice, or be funny. This is neither.
And I found the first answer to be particularly unfortunate.
162
How ground-breaking. An advice column that does not dispense useful advice, but seeks only to deliver snark. A shame it's not particularly clever or witty. That could be amusing.
149
Thank you! My thoughts exactly. Finding myself in the middle of a genuine work crisis, I read with interest thinking I might send in my question. Then I read it through and realized the last thing I need is advice that is both snarky and bad. And some of the advice here—yeah, sure, send that obnoxious company-wide email about the COO, see how that works out for you!—is flat out bad.
23
These Answers are awful. They sound like a bad cartoon or a teenager.
64
Of course, what do teens know? Let's assume they are all dumb.
8
@Tara
I wouldn't want to take work advice from someone who has never been in the workforce (which most teenagers have not).
9
If Choire Sicha wrote every advice column in every publication in the world, it still would not be enough. BRB, I'm off to over-index on my mean levels.
22
I'm liking this column! It's fresh and not stodgy like most NYT content.
17
Ummm, yes.
"My wife and I have been paying off our student loans for years, but we still have about $75,000 to go. She’s 35 and really wants to start having a family, but I think we should wait a few more years, until we’ve paid off more of our loans. We argue about it constantly.
— Anonymous
You don’t actually want children and you’re wasting her time and she will hate you forever.”
41
Am I being too cynical? I suspect the same person wrote the questions and the answers.
27
Think the problem of inviting a co-worker (peer, superior, or junior) of the opposite sex to a one-on-one dinner is tough? Try asking out a co-worker of the same sex. #WelcomeToMyWorld.
5
The notion that only children need naps is simply wrong. As for "reponsible for your choices", that notion crashes aganst the reality that you can't choose your choices. Choices are always limited, mostly by other people, and the rest by the laws of the universe. Then there's responsibility to and for orther people, which constrains your choices even further. Finally, there's one's own skills and lack of them. In practice, circumstances constrain your decisions so much that almost none are choices. About the only choice you may have is whether to do it now or a later. And only a little later at that.
12
This is the first time I've read anything by Choire Sicha. I like the answers and the writing style. Perhaps Choire can attend a WH press briefing and have some tart words for Ms. Sanders or better yet for her boss.
40
This column is new to me and totally hilarious (and brutally real!). Love it! Bravo Choire Sicha.
30
Really? I find it patronizing, sexist (anti-male) and insulting.
19
Sometimes I wonder why I read these things. The obituaries are really more informative.
18
Sassy suits you well over in the Style section, but it is a bit less appropriate or useful here.
26
The siesta would be a good thing for people to enact...it really would...30 minutes after lunch would be a reboot.
9
I hope you are being sarcastic in your reply about asking the coworker out. If it's now come to the stage where being politically correct means that asking someone of the opposite gender out (which, unlike asking someone of the same gender out because you are attracted to them, is completely natural) then this is a very sad world.
9
@BG
Right. Just ignore the part about how he is above her in the hierarchy. Ignore any problem with a power differential or perceived leverage or influence over her job or career. If you think she's cute, hey, why not hit on her, whaddya got to lose.
Some people refuse to learn. It's like the whole past year and metoo didn't happen.
42
@BG She's in his reporting chain. At the very least, she has to ask *him* out, not the other way around. And even that's probably a bad idea.
8
@DW
And it's like the last half million years of evolution haven't been learned. Oh, wait, it hasn't.
This whole male/female thing is, like, you know, biological in its functions. Males have always, also, been in the positions of power............look at any society ever, or even our primate relatives.
I'll presume the questioner - because he asked - is sensitive to the current slash and burn political climate. Ask her out. He's not in a supervisory line, which is the usual and reasonable criteria. If they find themselves wanting to spend more time together, talk about it.
#metoo has done a lot of good. It has also made normal mating instincts criminal in many cases.
2
My husband and I met at work, and I’m happy he asked me out even though his position was more senior, we were in different departments. Ask yourself - does she truly seem interested? Then yes. And if she declines, don’t keep asking!
9
@Marina In this case the guy is apparently in her reporting chain, although she's not a direct report (at least that's how I'm interpreting his statement that she doesn't report to him directly).
In this case, I think she really has to make the first move.
8
I met my husband at work. He asked me to go to lunch. We went to lunch on various occasions before we ever went on a date, ie an evening thing. I had to be completely convinced he was friendly and not creepy before going to anything beyond lunch. Your colleague will realize you're possibly being creepy, possibly just being friendly. Keep it friendly and don't physically touch her and if she says no, then drop it.
16
Can a woman ask a man out (since she says 'everything that happened in the last year')? Can a man or woman ask out a same sex person? I'm confused.
I think it's safe to say that either most or a fair percentage of people meet their spouse either at or in an activity related to work. It's why those "We met on a train" stories are interesting, when brief.
The whole world is not going to stop mating just because :
A) Some men rape
B) Some men use their office to lure or pressure women into undesired and therefore non-consensual relationships
C) Some women feel that respectful advances get to be either appropriate or inappropriate depending on how attracted they are or are not to the person doing the advancing
The human dynamic has not and will not ever change until we get a hardware update some 50,000 years from now (or more, probably much more, but certainly not sooner). Men will continue to bear the brunt of making the first move, and invariably, even the best of us still get turned down sometimes. Another time, you may meet the light of your life and live happily ever after.
There is a wrong way do it, including being a jerk and everything worse, especially after the asking.
There is a right way to do it - and even when you do it the right way, you may simply be asking the right question in the right way to the wrong person, and you'll have to keep asking until you find the right person. There's nothing wrong with that, at work or anywhere else.
16
@Mike
And just because some men apparently really honestly can't figure out when or why a woman thinks they're being creepy instead of friendly, doesn't mean women can't, or that women won't continue to explain it to you, or continue to accuse you of harassment if you insist you can't figure it out and insist on continuing to be a creep even after you've had it explained to you a dozen ways from Sunday.
If you want to take a "It's the way of the world, the birds and the bees, forever and ever, Amen" that's sweet, but you left out a few parts about how it all works.
12
@Mike if a woman is interested in a man, advances are wanted and therefore appropriate. If she isn’t, his advances are unwanted and if they threaten her security or become persistent, then it is harassment. It’s not “hot guys can’t assalt.” Stop playing a victim. I have NEVER heard a girlfriend complain about a truly nice guy who asked her out once and was polite when rejected. Women DO complain about ugly jerks who harass them or are rude to them when rejected.
6
Hilarious.
On the asking out a coworker though, dude, go for it. My husband was in the same boat. Forever grateful that he took the risk. If you're on the fence, maybe organize that office happy hour so you can feel out the situation in a more casual environment.
14
Reading this was column a nostalgia trip. Felt like LiveJournal ca. 2003.
Good times. Good times.
7
Oh wow. You can cut ANYTHING with this edge.
8
Some of these comments are so salty. Jeez! Take it easy, people.
I found this hilarious and on-point. Looking forward to more of this column!
12
These answers are hilarious! I don't read the Times much at all but this made me laugh. Everything I was thinking. Work is work. Just know how to deal with narcissists and document everything as needed. Maintain the humor side during work but take the job seriously and all will be fine.
12
It's a real problem if the paper can't give you better advice than a snarky friend.
27
As for office naps, after a bit more global warming, the Spanish siesta tradition will become as global as Disney and running sushi.
12
My new favorite column. That last answer... ouch.
14
This has potential - if only the first answer had been as spot on as the others. A senior company guy asking how to make an admittedly sleazy come-on less so deserves a swift kick.
7
@knitfrenzy Something tells me you've never tried your own advice. Because following your logic, the girl would deserve a swift kick in return, in self defense (assault isn't an appropriate answer to words, so the first kick would be an unprovoked assault in itself). Then what? Not only does the girl get badly hurt; she maybe faces battery and assault charges. And no, "he tried to talk to me so I had to hit him" won't hold up as a valid line of defense.
This is embarrassingly awful.
29
Naps are great. Your tone is childish.
19
@Mark huh,lost the ol' humor bone somewhere did we mark?
5
Ah, "millennial" humor. In the paper of record. How embarrassing.
Sincerely,
A 31-year-old millennial who hates this stuff
49
Don’t bother me. I’m taking a nap. I work for J. B.’s company.
I disagree with you about asking the woman out, it's casting women as something to be feared and avoided and that will just hurt women professionally. No woman on earth would be offended by, "I look forward to seeing you every day in the office. You've left an impression on me. If you're not uncomfortable about our working together, I would like to get to know you better socially, may I buy you a cup of coffee some time?" If she says "no" and you let it pass then she knows she has a male supporter who likes her and will respect her. Avoiding claims of sexual harassment involves creating a history of respectful and dignified interactions with women co-workers, not ignoring us altogether and pretending we are furniture.
In the other instance I was with you right up to "professional victim" and then you blew it with me. You were spot on with the jerk who who doesn't want kids, though. He's just stringing that poor woman along.
20
This is an advice column? The advice is insipid and the attitude is annoying. The author is trying way too hard to be hip and funny, and failing miserably.
56
". . . send an officewide email that says, “Babadook here keeps ‘forgetting’ to add me to these meetings, can you help him remember?” Third time, roll up on his office and start straight-up yelling. It’s time to misbehave."
Your advice to JB, if he takes it, will probably get him fired. But maybe you could see how unhappy he is there, and were just trying to do him a favor . . . .
18
My mother and late stepfather thank you for your advice about cannonballing lives because someone wants to ask someone out. Geez. Sorry, but not all love is found on Tinder or Bumble these days, Ms. Sicha.
The Navy has a policy that there is no "fraternization" on ships. This does not actually stop fraternization on ships.
We hold school dances. Boys ask girls to dance. Girls say no, or dance once and say thank you and say no next time. Everyone shows up in the same classes on Monday. We all lived through this. Lives were not cannonballed. But now? We can't have co-workers date? Tell that to the teachers who met at work and were engaged that I met two weeks ago at a wedding. Tell that to Jimmy Kimmel, who is married to one of his former writers on his show. Tell that to Judd Apatow who is married to an actress to whom he met when he cast her in a film he was producing.
If you think women are so fragile, have so little agency in this world that they cannot handle be asked on a date, then you are really not saying much about your opinion of women.
I, and my other progressive male and female friends, witness something quite different in this world: women are perfectly capable of making decisions about their romantic lives, including whether they are interested in a co-worker.
21
@JWC - Here, here.
2
@JWC
I think you might have missed the difference in their rank in the hierarchy. No one is saying people don't meet at work (I met my husband at work). But it is much better if it is something that evolves naturally. You need to get to a point where you have some idea how she is going to respond to such an advance. The suggestion above that "you've made an impression on me and I look forward to seeing you at the office every day" is frankly still a bit creepy - I'd surely back away from such a person. OTOH, I've become friends with plenty of men through work, and as I said met my husband that way. I don't know why it is so difficult for men to figure this out. Don't "make advances," don't make up awkward lines, just try to be normal and you might make friends, even find romance, it can happen.
But above all, DON'T approach women who are subordinate to you in position.
If this is a problem 'cus there aren't enough women on your own level in the hierarchy, consider that it's not all about you personally. There SHOULD be more women on your level in the hierarchy, see.
10
@DW I think you may be overreacting on the don't ask someone subordinate to you. The questioner stated his interest was not his report, but rather worked in a different area of the company. I don't view this as being his "subordinate." As long as he is not using his position to place the person feel they are beholding to him for their career track, what is the reason for the prohibition? I have been in big companies and small, where husbands and wives met through work. I have been to their weddings and their children's major life events. It is a fact of life in the business world. Let's not take this current movement about predatory men, get confused with normal behavior. Predatory men or women are the aberrations, not the norm. If the head of engineering wants to date someone in accounting, so be it. I know of exactly this situation turning into a loving couple with two lovely children. I know of other times when it didn't work out. At the same time, we had a sales manager make an unwanted advance on a marketing person he supervised. He was fired and it didn't cause us to do anything more than providing sexual harassment training for the company. Life continued and it works just fine. At least that has been my experience of 25 years in upper management. Now when your salesperson starts dating a major customer...now you have a problem.
This is my first introduction to Choire Sicha's writing. It comes off as unnatural and trying too hard to be clever. The questions are great. I suggest have E. Jean from Elle respond instead. There's no comparison if you want brilliant attitude.
34
Too much snark, too little wit, and confusing answers. I'll take Carolyn Hax in the WaPo over this any day.
40
The next time your obsessive supervisor asks you to do something stupid 'because industry does it'; and the next time your After-Hours social-worker collars you, here's what you do. Ask them to document their methodologies, citing published texts and tested research. This will make them pause for a second. They won't send you anything. If they do send something, circulate research that refutes it, or write up a cogent reply by yourself. The point is that these people are power-trippers and trend-followers, accustomed to silent obedience. Question or debunk the junk -- it makes you the 'serious' one in the office.
1
Is this column supposed to be like the New Yorker’s Shouts and Murmurs? It’s confusing. Shouts and Murmurs is funny.
29
I have some workplace advice for this columnist. Don't quit your day job. Unless this is it. Then forget what I said.
To the guy who wants to ask out a younger woman who doesn't report to him directly: Unless you are the president and she's a 22-year-old intern, just ask her. If she says no, then leave her alone. My wife said yes and we've been happy ever since.
That said, Mr. Sicha was right about the reluctant dad. His loss. And only a fool makes it about money. I have three kids, will be paying off their college bills into my late 60s, and consider being a father the best part of my eventful life. The best time for a woman over 35 to get pregnant was yesterday. Next best is today. And slightly worse is tomorrow.
55
Hello Choire Sicha-- I love your column, your attitude and your advice. Honest, to the point, and no dancing around. Your advice is perfect. And funny. Thank you, thank you.
7
This is fantastic. Full stop.
9
WE NEED NAP TIMES! But aside from that, this advice was so spot on and straightforward I feel like Choire should officially offer all advice for all people for everything from now on. And yes, the husband at the end is wasting his wife's time!
13
Learn to drink, play golf (cheating skills help) or quit and find real work for yourself.
2
The reason so many people fawn over this 'advice column' is because they truly dislike their jobs, their co-workers and other people in general. The hostility vibe feels so right - finally, someone is expressing what they all feel every day! Cynicism and hostility is easy, and apparently still popular. The advice to the second person is victim-blaming, pure and simple. The column writer is ready to make fun of anyone who doesn't think cruel jabs, sarcasm, and faux sophistication isn't funny. It's the humor of a clever sixteen year-old and the worst of liberalism.
14
Good grief, human beings are not automatrons.
And life is not all about work. Get with the siesta program.
Americans are so overworked, towards ill health and death.
9
Great advice, if you value presumptuousness over thoughtfulness, sneering over sincerity, and rudeness rather than respect.
35
The first piece of advice gave me the laugh I’ve had from an advice column while also being so obviously true.
2
So, the millennialization of the NY Times continues apace. Along with stories on how to do your laundry and how to cook and what, as a hipster, you should wear to the park, we're now getting SNL skits. Question #1 was an attempt at humor, right?
Granted, I worked for fairly small companies throughout my career, and they were in educational publishing, and this was in the '80s and '90s, which meant that the staff were decidedly a bunch of non-buttoned-down, non-PC men and women who would have torn answer #1 apart over their coffees and bialys. And once answer #1 has set the tone, why even bother to go on to #2?
In my first job , we had two major office romances in my department. One has reached grandchild status and the other, even more romantic, unfortunately was cut short by the death of the husband. Really, no one in the department or the company ever thought this was a problem. Presumably both are adults and can say, "Thanks, but I'd rather not," without screaming to Human Resources.
The tone of this column is so snarky and edging on vicious that I wonder if anyone working today actually smiles or has any fun. For contemporary offices, I am picturing John Hurt in the film of "1984." A perfect correlative to the Age of Trump.
35
@NYCLugg
Choire is not a millennial, he was born in 1971.
Commenters: Choire Sicha is a man. He is not a woman. A Man. Maybe google a person before misgendering them presumably based off a misapprehension that men's names can't end in "e".
5
misgendering. there's a new interesting term. get over it. and stop being so offended over, well, EVERYTHING. in 1944 teenage americans were storming german machine gun nests on the beaches of normandy. Fast forward to 2016 and American college kids need crayons, coloring books, safe spaces and therapy because they are unhappy with the results of an election. somewhere in between then and now, the fabric if American society has died. RIP America.
15
@bored critic
I'm all for not being outraged about "everything," including the misgendering of someone named Chorie.
But nor should we be "offended" over those "college kids" who are deeply concerned about Democracy. They are not unlike those who left college, jobs, and families to volunteer on December 8, 1941. Many of them returned from that war needing therapy. We call them "the greatest generation" because we celebrate the survivors who thrived. But if you read up on the aftermath of demobilization, in 45/46, you will see more stories on the carnage.
Knowing some "kids" in college, who are full-blown adults who can vote, who have travelled the country, who have fought for their values, who have volunteered in local communities and across the globe, who have mounted campaigns to reform our gun laws. They really aren't babies, and it seems that is is old racist curmudgeons who are the biggest threat to our fabric.
13
Is this humor? Never read this column before today but it reads like weekday lunches with wine & friends - many quick comebacks but little prolonged thought. Btw, I disagree with Mr. Sicha's opinion of workday naps as well as his daft advice on women and dating. (As clever quips over lunch though, they're fine!)
7
I can’t tell if this whole thing is a joke or not. #humorfail
22
"You don’t actually want children and you’re wasting her time and she will hate you forever."
This won the internet today for me!
You aren't going to go broke having children...unless you refuse to alter your lifestyle and choices.
Here's the truth: there's NEVER a perfect time to have children and you're not getting any younger.
30
And if you think they're expensive as babies, hold onto your hat.
9
Chiore Sicha, you are the best ever. Please don’t ever stop.
2
Like the advice.
True enough. We are not children. We have been adulterated... the process that takes the wide-eyed wonderment, openness, and boundless energy so common to childhood, and replaces it with cynicism, closed-mindedness, and dreariness.
Which brings me to naps. I believe that regular naps can help restore some of the energy, and creativity common to children in we adults. When I had my own company, and I allowed early afternoon, post lunch nap-time, the employees that took advantage were always "restored"... MORE energetic, and productive until end of work day. Now, as an employee of a large corporation, I'm "adult" enough to get my required naps daily, and on the sly.
9
The response to the couple debating children is flip, but not necessarily off-mark.
But I wonder how many commenters who are urging this couple to have kids while in debt would denigrate them if they ended up on public assistance?
8
@nom de guerre
OTOH ... if they put off having children until they pay down their debt, they can use the freed up funds for fertility clinic expenses.
3
@nom de guerre If people were to wait until they were out of debt to start a family, there would be no families.
It's not irresponsible to start a family while carrying debt as long as it's under control. If you have a stable income and enough money left over after paying your bills to afford diapers and day care, go for it. Kids aren't that expensive, especially in the elementary school years.
Choire Sicha hit it on the nail. The 35 year old dude still waiting to start a family is just stalling - putting up a series of short term excuses and biding his time until his wife is too old to have kids.
Nothing wrong having kids later in life, but those little buggers require a ton of energy. Much easier to run with your kids at 26 than at 45.
32
@cornelllian
And they'd better, because they'll need those kids to pay for their elder care.
1
Choire, please run for President in 2020 - if I could vote for you myself I would...
2
@TB Well, at least as President she would be out of the advice business. Make that 2 hypothetical votes.
1
@Pete He would be out of the advice business. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/26/reader-center/choire-sicha-styles-editor-q-and-a.html
Dear NYT
This is the best new column I've seen from you in forever.
Please give her a raise
kthnxbai
10
Hmm ... the title plait wasn't addressed!
Around noon, I desperately needed a quick bite to be followed by a cat nap. The food was easy ... but the other just wasn't in the cards!
That didn't stop me, but my work-arounds didn't do anyone any favors.
(It's OK, I'm re-tired now!)
2
Great column. I actually looked at it because I am perfecting my "napping at my desk," technique. I recently figured out how to turn my landline phone handset into a pillow. It looks like I am talking on the phone, but I'm actually sleeping....
7
Does anyone else see this kind of "common sense" as problematic? The presumption is that his interest is somehow inherently toxic.
One issue that Americans face is that work is our lives. Work is therefore were we meet people, and develop collaborations, which can lead to friendship based on something other than romantic expectations. We no long have church socials or singalongs, where meeting people is appropriate; some (many) people don't like environments where alcohol is a factor; some consider online dating absurd.
Most women will not ask a man out, much less put it into ink, though this happens sometimes.
The "don't ask women out" advice might work if more women were just a little more assertive, and not waiting for men to act -- which is what many women do: when interested, a woman will usually leave an opening for a man to approach her, and see what happens -- but not, in the experience of most men, make an approach.
He has to take the risk. This places men in a double bind that is not being addressed by the "activism" of our day.
One last thought. Once again we have more advice what not to do, but not what to do. And one additional thought: many people would risk their career for love.
PPS, I believe in offices having the opportunity for nap time. At Planet Waves, naps are mandatory if you want them. There is a couch to chill out on, in a room off of the business office. Many creative powerhouse types find catnapping is a key to their success. I am one of them.
11
The key here that the He you’re referring to, and you, missed is the #metoo movement. Power imbalance. Sexual harassment. Women having had enough of having to tiptoe around a man’s delicate ego when being asked out at work by a guy up the chain of command. Hello, wake up. Think about it from a woman’s perspective, not for your perspective, for, oh, five minutes. It won’t kill you. Then find somewhere else to meet people to date. Is it that difficult? It’s not.
10
@Eric Francis Coppolino
In a much broader sense, we're on the same page here. I think we need to teach our daughters to be more assertive about both what they want and do not want. This includes asking men out.
However, the workplace is not a dating service set up to replace old-timey social opportunities for men. If women were so staunch in their insistence that they NEED to treat their office like a dating pool, they'd be treated as vapid and unserious about their careers.
Read through what you wrote. Does any part of it move beyond the desires of the man and take an honest, adult look at the situation?
While it might seem like this man's ego exists in a vacuum, I'm assuming that other men work in his office. If he's entitled to ask her out, isn't every other man (who isn't a direct superior) in the office? How does that play out in a way that makes women safe and equal in the workplace?
I won't argue that dating can be difficult for men. It's difficult for women too, in different ways. But this is not a romcom in which the letter writer HAS to ask this woman out as risk of losing his soulmate.
Rather, it's very much a grow up and accept that you can't have everything you want situation. If he's willing to risk his career for love, that's great. After he quits his job, he's free to ask her out.
8
@Margaret one other thought - the Me Too movement, such as it is, is supposed to be about sexual violence and harassment. It's not about normal socialization. It's not about saying hello, smiling, or asking women out on dates, or for that matter, asking men out. And this is conflation is the whole problem.
3
Every word in this column is on target.
Now that Choire Sicha has mastered the art of the advice column, he needs to find new worlds to conquer.
Best of luck!
So, you're saying I really can't have a nap during my working hours? Joke's on you because I just close the door and flip on the white noise machine.
2
@srose1210 Considering that the amount of time wasted on unproductive meetings, stupid e-mails, and needless paper shuffling during a given day in corporate America is astounding, one might as well take a thirty-minute siesta to recharge the brain, if only to deal with the administrivia of surviving in the corporate rat cage.
6
Wow. Hurry up and have those kids. Parenting teens in your fifties is totally exhausting. Been there.
16
@Suzy Good point! That debt is going to paid off either way, but you aren't getting any younger!
2
Choire -
On the second question - You can't answer responsibly without the information unless you answer generally. "UNION GOOD EMPLOYER BAD" as a rule is dangerous and awfully cavalier when any economist, not to mention the person asking the question, understands and acknowledges that outside a balance between owner and worker power there is only failure. You owe a duty of care to your readership and have absolutely no idea what the terms between the union and the employer are.
6
@Dalton: Spot on. Sometimes unions aren't a good thing, even when everyone around you is saying it should be.
4
@Dalton well said; my first thought upon reading that question was that a company already on the ropes is extremely likely to be killed off by a unionization of its workers. Hastening its demise may not be a bad thing for society on the whole, but it's not going to help out the people that work there right now.
6
@Dalton
If this hypothetical economist were omniscient (the sort of hypothesis that might appeal to an economist!), then she might be able to tell us in advance whether unionization will be the final straw that breaks a company.
Otherwise, capitalism means decisions are often forced on us - both on management and on employees - which is basically what Choire Sicha is saying.
4
Can’t decide how much of the snark is meant to be taken as honest advice vs. just a humor column. That’s a bit of a problem.
52
@SG I think it is honest snarky advice - deliberately dogmatic and entertaining at the same time.
2
@SG
The columnist is far cooler than you and wants you to know it. It's aggression dressed up as humor. Like Trump, but liberal.
18
@SG I entirely agree. But the absence of serious advice would matter more if the questions published were about real issues concerning professional ethics and well-being, and not silly musings by bored millennials.
2
I think the wife of the student-loan debtor can do much better. She should cut and run while she's still young enough to have children.
18
Corporate noobs?
1. No fishing off the local dock
2. Set your LinkedIn flag to “Actively Looking”
3. See #2
4. Live for the moment, at least someone wants to drink with you
5. See #4, substitute “sleep” for “drink”
4
You can be, snarkily humorous, or give good advice.
This is neither.
48
Thank you chanteuse of sanity. Please another number.
2
Choire Sicha you are hilarious! I will be looking for more from you. Straight to the point indeed!
6
God, the anti-union propaganda has sunk in deep in this country.
37
Unions are like democracy. I forget who said this but: Democracy is the worst form of government... except as compared to all other forms of government.
4
Choire, I have loved your writing ever since I read your jury duty diary, lo, these many years ago. This entire column made me feel much better about the miserable day ahead in my miserable office with my miserable colleagues.
4
This is awesome. Please tell me this will be a regular column!
16
I miss Brunching Shuttlecocks...
Babadook... still laughing.
4
Sarcasm is difficult to convey with the written word. Sometimes it comes off as snarky, or rude or mean. And if you don't know the author, the reader is often confused and possibly even offended.
Such is my feeling about this column. I don't know if the author is serious or not. I finished reading, annoyed.
40
@Michael she does not have a light touch or finesse. As an editor, my sense is she's trying to be trendy, rather than practical. Humor does not need to be "haha." True humor is a little tension in the words, which signals that the writer is actually awake. Observations do not require sarcasm.
4
Eric, Chiore Sicha is a man.
3
I loved and hated this column. Loved: refreshing, different. Hated: kinda mean?
What I like most is how it is showing a divide from readers, based on the comments (and quite a lot for this type of article!). Glad the Times is looking at ways to attract/engage younger readers (who this feels targeted towards). Though also great to see positive comments from “older” readers too! (I’m in the middle, age-wise, probably explaining my split feelings).
9
@City Girl
Column is Exhibit # 8 why Republicans hate us. Endless snark. It's a bore. And too easy.
3
I don't understand what to make of this. Is it purely comical sarcasm? Or is it serious in any way? Honestly I take some offense. I for one feel that a place of business is actually intended to be a professional atmosphere. This article feels far too similar to something I'd find on 'The Onion', and worry about why I'm finding it on NYT...
26
@Ben
I don't see some huge divide between the Times and the Onion. The Onion is very serious stuff.
1
a million times yes!
1
I find it ironic that a column entitled "Your Office Doesn't Have Nap Time Because You Are Not A Child" would then immediately tell a man that he can't ask a woman at work out because if he does, she'll never feel secure about working with men again.
The movement to infantalize women and treat them all as if they are so fragile they can no longer deal with normal male/female interactions without incurring lifelong trauma is picking up steam at an alarming rate.
I won't deny that many women these days themselves act as if that is the case, a development which makes this female feel increasingly embarrassed to be one, but please don't make it worse by assuming that every female is incapable of functioning as an actual adult just by virtue of the fact that she IS female.
And BTW, for all you know, this woman that he wants to ask out may very well feel the same. This used to be pretty well understood, and it pains me to have to actually say it out loud, but the adult way to find that out is to ask the person to go on a date.
To Anonymous - Yes, as long as you don't have a company policy prohibiting it, ask her. Be specific (don't ask her to "hang out" but for dinner - or just coffee - and suggest a couple of times/dates). If she says no, and doesn't offer an alternate suggestion, let it go for good.
Good luck!
101
@Kristin
While I don't disagree with your assessment that it may not be harmful, there appear to be two clues from the op that it's probably a skeevy move.
1) She's "junior to me, but doesn't report to me directly" means he may be her boss's boss, which would put everyone involved an improper position even if it's not against company policy.
2) He mentioned she's "younger", which could mean he's 43 and she's 23. Again, improper.
16
@Kristin You have identified the primary contradiction in this author's writing that many people are complaining about. Her viewpoint is neither consistent, nor adult. And the infantalizing "feminism" of our day is just infuriating.
9
@Kristin, the part that worries me is that he describes her as a 'younger woman' and expresses a concern that he might come across as 'sleazy.' If he's worried about sleaze, she probably hasn't given him any reason to think she feels the same.
I don't think Mr. Sicha intended a serious answer here, but if I were giving real advice, I'd say either leave it alone or tell her you really admire X and Y about her, and would like to get to know her better, and ask her to let you know if she's like to get coffee after work sometime. And then back off forever.
10
That was exactly the advice needed for paying off the student loans.
I would have gone even further (if I were talking to them individually) getting them to reconsider their current jobs and their inadequate income situation. If two people without children, both university grads, can't pull together that amount of money quickly they need to either find other employment or learn how to drastically budget and skimp. Some call it "living on a shoestring." My wife and I did it first decades ago and started several enterprises with the realized funding. Even with productive businesses today, I still utilize those skills to provide new investment opportunities.
3
@Polemic: Good for you, but it's no longer "decades ago" and life is a bit more expensive in the present. Often, 20th century advice doesn't apply to 21st century problems.
11
@Polemic The anonymous poster doesn't want advice about paying off student loan debt. He clearly doesn't want children. He's probably been doing small acts like prolonging paying out loans loans to sabotage his wife's attempts to start a family while retaining plausible deniability.
I found the author's response succinct and perfectly appropriate.
Good advice for student loan guy. Men are in the position to change their minds about having children much later in life (although they shouldn't father children after 40, many can and do). Women have a narrower window of opportunity that begins to slam shut after age 40, the age at which having a baby with a developmental disability increases exponentially.
20
I must have been in an isolation tank for not knowing Mr. Sicha! Will look for his writings.
5
wow, last one really hit home. thank you, this is awesome!!
8
Your advice column is brutal. By which I mean hilarious.
I try to avoid the after work "happy hour" if possible. They typically are neither happy nor an hour.
(An occasional lunch with colleagues, though, is great.)
11
I totally enjoyed this. It was like a cold splash of water on a hot humid afternoon. Are you awake, now?
Anonymous does not want children It was clear before I finished the letter. And his wife is 35. He should have figured this out “years” ago so she could find a partner who understood the concept of “old eggs”.
17
This is beautiful prose.
8
There is nothing about naps in this other than the title. I came here to read about naps and was sad :(
215
@Randolph Who says adults DON'T need naps. I guessed there was not value after the title.
5
@Michael, I read the column because I was *stunned* that someone somewhere hadn't heard the (now very old) news that naps improve productivity, morale and innovation. I was all ready to leap in with a vigorous defense!
12
@Randolph Thank you for my best laugh of the day.
2
The last man may not want children with that particular woman and I agree he is wasting her time. Waiting a few more years may put her past ideal child bearing years for a woman. He needs to show mercy and cut her loose asap to give her time to find someone who will love her enough to share that experience with her, that she so deeply desires. That's obvious by the constant arguing about it.
31
@Ro While it is possible that Mr Anonymous truely doesn't want children 'at all' rather than just 'not now', that is not a foregone conclusion. It could be that he is hesitant to disrupt their clearly opulent lifestyle as a childless couple, since they can't plan far enough ahead to clear a $75K debt. In light of that, splitting up to free the wife to pursue her biological destiny might be the right solution, or he could snap out of his infantile procrastination and take stock of his own reproductive desires. Besides, making babies is fun!
1
@Kevin I agree 100%, with the fun part!
Choire Sicha, I love you! I just stumbled across this column. What a breath of fresh air. Your clarity and wit remind me of Miss Manners (Judith Martin) who changed my way of living. Keep it up.
12
@amoss3 -- See also the Miss Conduct column in the Boston Globe.
1
I take naps at my office. That 15-30 minutes makes me much more productive.
I liked the snarkiness and humor of this column, overlaid onto good advice. I hope this will be a regular feature!
7
This was Absolutely Fabulous. MORE, please.
15
Wow. I've invited co-workers out for happy hour in the past. Never realized some of them felt so put upon by it.
If you don't want to join your coworkers, don't. Few things ruin a nice happy hour more than somebody who would rather be somewhere else.
13
As a introvert and women I found workplace Happy Hours difficult to navigate. Do I treat the event like a networking event or mini company party? Show up to chat managers up, work the room, drink only water, and leave after 20 minutes. Or focus on one key person, buy them beers, and put them safety in a cab/Uber post event. We all know we are being watched at these events to answer the big questions are you a team player, can you hold your liquor, are you good for my career?
6
@Old Grey
Honestly that's a whole lot of thought to a simple night out of drinks. I go out, talk to who I know and then plan my leaving on what train on want to catch without getting home to late.
Why can’t you just go for a drink and talk to your co-workers about life? Why does every work interaction have to be about work? You spend more hours of your life with them than you do with almost anyone, so why wouldn’t you want to develop some sort of relationship, find some common ground so you can feel like you relate to them as “people” and not just as “co-workers”. I rarely went to the after-hours work get-togethers because I wanted to get home to my husband and kids, but when I did decide to go, it was because I knew it was a good idea to connect with the people my office every now and again... and it wasn’t always with the people I worked closely with. I put in the time, had a few drinks, a few laughs and then, not surprisingly, work was more enjoyable for awhile. It’s not that complicated. Just don’t get $]! -faced and you’ll be fine... and for crying out loud, don’t drink water!!! (Unless you’re an alcoholic, in which case, you’re probably more than familiar with the after-hours office party)
This was surprisingly refreshing. Unexpected. Whimsical. Sarcasm unsparing. Well, the old saying is - “There is truth in all sarcasm”. So true! Well done, NYT. Please serve more of this dish(ing).
26
This is a matter of taste, really. I feel the appeal of a blend of advice and satire, but the humor is a bit sharp for my southern sensibilities. I don't see, however, why the complaints are so pungent from those who prefer not to partake. The NYT has plenty of other articles. Life would be dull indeed if it really were tailored quite to your desires. I fear we've become pandered to online already to the point of becoming somewhat solipsistic and demanding of gratification, frankly.
14
Hilarious! Even though I didn’t agree with some of the advice. (no one likes forced after-hours work socials — we have actual lives)
19
Worst.Advice. Ever.
27
So it's totally OK for a woman to ask a man out with a super-romantic calligraphic wax-sealed letter. But it's not OK for a man to do ANYTHING. Interesting. Wait, can a woman just use words? Is that OK?
13
@mbsq, do you think the author might have been joking?
15
@mbsq I think the issue is more the person with more power asking a person with less power out, which could then be easily misconstrued. Situation is the same if either or both genders are reversed.
33
@mbsq Do whatever you want. Advice is just a guideline. But I agree.
If you are both lower in the totempole, then why not? As long as you don't pressure or repeatedly ask after they say no, its ok.
1
This is some of the very worst advice I’ve ever heard (except for the part about dating a coworker). Good thing Ms Sicha’s reports are unionized - they need the protection. Does your company have an EAP for you supervisors? Check on counseling/ anger management benefits.
15
@Ed. Choire is a he.
1
Count me highly entertained. It's nice seeing the Times go un-stodgy -- such a change from back in the day, when I had to walk five miles uphill each way to school over beds of hot coals, and the Times was called the Gray Lady for a reason.
23
I like this column -- a new addition? I Like it better than the rearragement of the NYT front epage which looks exactly like The Washington Post but not as good.
I like the author's tone, vibe, directness and I might just send in a note with my perplexing problem for some genuinely useful thinking. Thanks.
22
@French
He is a liberal Jude Judy/Nancy Grace. An angry screamer- the American currency du jour.
This column is genius. Put a smile on my face before my morning coffee, which I am sipping at my desk at work, so, thank you!
More, please.
38
I love this and need more of it.
21
The headline of this story, "Your Office Doesn’t Have Nap Time Because You Are Not a Child" demonstrates a huge cultural bias. Offices in China, just for example. generally have a one-hour nap time after lunch observed by nearly all employees. Lights and phones are turned off. People sleep on cots or sleeping mats placed under or near their desks. A very healthy practice. I assure you that these people are not children, and are responsible for their choices.
58
@ShenBowen Choire may know the question came from the US where we do not have nap hour. I would certainly enjoy a siesta after lunch and have contemplated moving to a country where it is a common practice.
8
@ShenBowen Really, the people in the Foxconn factories get an hour for a nap? That sounds a little optimistic.
6
@Tracy: Hi. Your excellent question led me to do some research. https://www.computerworlduk.com/it-vendors/huawei-workers-in-china-have-camp-beds-under-their-desks-3475185/
Although this article is about the Chinese company Huawei, it also talks about Foxconn Foxconn does NOT have a nap time, but Foxconn is NOT a Chinese company, it is a Taiwanese company with factories in China. My knowledge of nap time comes from six years working for Huawei. I spent quite a bit of time at their campuses in Shenzhen and Nanjing. I enjoyed the naps. I believe this is a common practice in Chinese companies. Keep in mind that, at Huawei and other tech companies in China like ZTE, schedules are different than in the US. People come in around 9AM, often stopping for breakfast at the cafeteria, have a half hour lunch shift (staggered in order to control crowding in the cafeteria), a one hour nap time. Two or three evenings a week, people will have dinner at the cafeteria and work until 9PM.People often work a half day on Saturday in order to earn time off over Spring and Autumn festivals. My experience with Chinese engineers is that they work VERY hard, but family IS important. I found that engineers at IBM in France had a similar schedule. Long, relaxing lunch breaks (with wine and coffee) but some late nights. Migrant factory workers, I'm sure, have a much harder life.
10
Loved this column! I had to read the last one about debt vs. having a child at 35 years old, twice. The answer was sharp, clear, and the jolt the man needed. The tone of all of the advice is meant for today’s era. More!
72
Where did it say it was a man?!
Good column! Even if the answers had directly contradicted what I would say, I would still appreciate the directness of this writer.
No “on the one hand, on the other.” No “wait-and-see.” No pretending the writer understands after-work socializing; instead Choire turns to a colleague who does. No softpedaling the response to the future father in the last question; that man doesn’t want kids. Period.
I know others think the writer was brutal — and snarky — in this advice, but I thought these answers were straight from the heart. (I don’t see Trumpism here: Trump often doesn’t answer questions intelligibly, and he regularly resorts to name-calling and labeling.)
In these cases, readers asked questions, and Choire gave reasonable, direct answers, and invoked experience to make the point. Refreshing!
33
I liked this column. No need to mince words. Just say what we are all thinking. And, she's correct, the student loan guy absolutely does not want children.
50
I agree completely. And if Anonymous needs any more help in honestly thinking about this, I’d suggest watching Daniel Sloss’s “Jigsaw” on Netflix.
With over 10,000 relationships, engagements, and marriages reportedly ending after viewing it, his message about relationships is just as important as what Hannah Gadsby talks about, although he has received far less recognition.
3
@Robin Nope, we aren't all thinking this.
4
I find her answers incredibly mean and cutting. The type of sarcasm exhibited by people who think the movie Mean Girls is must viewing for learning office coping strategies.
82
Guess you’re not familiar with Mr. Sicha’s extensive work as a writer & editor for Gawker, the Awl, and many other publications which have turned intelligent snark into a fine art. No, this isn’t meant to be Dear Prudence or Ask a Manager. It is, however, perfectly Sicha in every way—who is a man, btw.
36
@Stephanie. Nope, not familiar. Yep, still turned off by the smug, abrasive tone. Great that it is “perfect” MR Sicha; just let it be perfect somewhere else. Is Mad Magazine still around?
28
@Ed. Honestly 100% agree with you.
10
The tone of the responses reminded me of how a certain US president conducts himself at press conferences. Sad!
42
Please add a subscribe button and deliver this to inboxes! Would be the highlight of my day!
46
@Katie I totally agree. I'd love to see the demographics on the displeased vs the interested. I've never been much invested in the NYT but if this is the direction I'd come along for the ride.
5
I'm a 71 year old retiree and I find this column awesome! Where was this writer when I was part of the workforce; every answer is spot-on.
About the last Q&A - did that dullard sleep through sex ed.? Your wife's 35! Tick, tick, tick...
66
He was probably too busy counting his pennies...
14
Pinning this tab.
4
Wit based in reality plus a pithy headline. Thumbs up.
8
This totally made my day.
17
This is my new favorite advice column. The one to the guy with the student debt is spot-on.
58
All of these questions could have been answered in a level headed, balanced and, most importantly, helpful way. The way it is written though shows that this column belongs in the entertainment section. If you're looking for thoughtful answers to work-related questions I recommend Ask A Manager.
50
Love this column. As a long-time married no-child couple, all the signs you need to know are right there. There is no "right" time to have a child. If any reason sounds like a good one to "wait" you are not interested.
29
I love this column, intelligent answers with some great sarcasm. While it's very likely that the "This is Obvious to Everyone You Know" doesn't in fact want children deep down, I just had to reply.
I know many, many mothers who had children naturally over 35. The oldest one I know of was 46. I myself gave birth to a son at 44. All of these were natural conceptions. The letter writer's wife may have more time then either of them realizes.
If the two of them really do want children, I hope they get to have that experience. Being a parent (for those that want to be) can be one of life's best experiences. In the meantime, try to see each other's point of view, possibly consider counseling (marriage and financial) if needed to do it. Every couple argues to some degree, but constant arguing is a bad environment for kids to grow up in.
7
@MisterHippity don't tell women what is/isn't a terrible idea when they are deciding what to do with their own reproductive systems.
10
@MisterHippity Fertility for men also drops after 35, which contributes to the effect.
1
@Marissa Technically he's responding to the man's question of pushing it off after age 35. The woman wants to have a baby now. Maybe the husband is an optimistic moron who doesn't understand the real change in fertility post 35. Some women have an easy time, and some don't. That is fact."Waiting a few years", as MisterHippity suggests, is a terrible idea if they want a baby. I have many friends who've cried and cried over this because they think it'll be easy. (For the record, I got pregnant easily at 36 and 38--most of my friends in that age range struggled and several failed altogether, even after paying up to $45,000 for in vitro.
4
I liked all the answers except the C.O.O. one. Choire did not consider that the LW may not be a reliable narrator. The "I treat this person better than anybody else in the office' combined with "C.O.O. does all the logistics work nobody wants to do"...that suggests to me that C.O.O. might not be at fault.
None of them are civil or willing to do detail work? And we are too assume the C.O.O. is a psychopath and power-hungry? As opposed to just wanting to get things done. Maybe the "I'm nicer than other people" comes with a side of "look how nice I am being to you" so not very nice at all.
It is still good advice to ask for what you want. But some willingness to question the narrative is in order.
11
@NSH I was thinking a version of the same thing. "I'm much nicer to him than most other people in the company" followed almost immediately by "I don’t like the guy, and don’t really care what he thinks about me," suggests to me maybe he thinks he's better at hiding his disdain for his boss during their daily interactions than he actually is. "Being nice" to someone means talking to them when you have a problem with them, not secretly building up resentment until you feel the need to seek advice on how they can be dealt with.
13
Or sending an *insanely* patronizing email to a large group, so they all know you are not to be trusted, ever.
2
re: having a child vs. paying off college debt. The response is just right. I think ir was Orwell who wrote that his parents maintained that his aunts d & uncles were childless didn't have children because they were too poor. As an adult, he arrived at the opinion that people with any real life force had children regardless of whether they were rich or poor.
20
@Jenifer Wolf
"As an adult, he arrived at the opinion that people with any real life force had children regardless of whether they were rich or poor."
So now not only are women who decide they don't want children (or aren't able to have them) "not real women" but anyone who decides or is unable to have children does not have "any real life force"???
That seems a harsh and unwarranted judgment to pass. And plenty of people who do have children do not make good parents.
2
The last question reminds me of a conversation with a former boss. I had brought my very cute toddler to a "family" company event, and she and her husband really enjoyed him. The next work day, she told me this had sparked a long conversation between them, and that they'd finally decided to have children, "once they had bought a second house."
I don't believe they ever had kids, as there was always some thing -- house, car, vacation -- more important.
25
That’s natural selection at work! Too absorbed in themselves, so they wouldn’t have been good parents anyhow.
16
This is great. Though given the, um, lack of basic common sense underlying some of the questions, I wouldn't exactly trust all the recipients of Choire's advice to follow it to the letter. Or out of the unemployment line!
4
Loved all of the answers!
In regards to the last one...if I can be a little bit serious - who only owes $75.000 on his student loans?
Until we moved into a slightly more expensive house the balance on my student loans was higher than my mortgage!
Student loans are the number 2 reason that college educated people do not have many children. The number 1 reason is that in college they teach you how to effectively use birth control...
14
@David Check out the cost of an MBA at a top-10. Or medical school. Or law school.
1
Wow! I am going to email you all my nagging questions. Do you do "outside the office" questions too? Ann Landers is too wordy and too nice.
10
I love the Awlfinication of the NYT.
29
This column is silly, flip and dull. The first answer is as sexist as anything I've read lately.
60
@DaveD
How sexist. It would be just as true if the sexes were reversed but the roles were not.
11
@DaveD. Agree. Just because people work in the same office is no reason that they can't have a social relationship. He's talking about asking for a date, not an affair, an orgy, or anything unseemly. IF they get along as friends, seem to like each other, spend some time now and then during the day, have common interests, and intentions are benign, that should be enough to signal that "going out" is an option. The answer given was incredibly flip and condescending. As for sexist, hardly. It's human behaviour. I agree that it can be an awkward situation and that has to be considered and the person in the superior position has to be sensitive to that (regardless of her answer). But throwing this guy against a wall for being interested in someone, as the oh so wise advice giver does, is really really unhelpful. But, of course, any subject related to men and women, no matter how small, has become hyper-politicised in America, the sexist cards being thrown around like a blizzard, and it's not healthy.
Men can be and very often are stupid jerks and need to change that in a very short time frame. However, if neo-feminists really think that demonising and demeaning all of them, as this article does, will get the results they want, good luck with that. (Oh, and make sure the political backlash keeps electing vermin like trump, mcconnell and all the rest. Very strategic.)
11
@DaveD Agreed
2
This was a phenomenal column. How can I get it delivered to my inbox?
22
@Christopher Learn how to use RSS feeds. Inoreader is a good RSS app. Then you find what feed the content is in and subscribe to that.
After doing this, the new content pops up in your web browser (as long as you keep the RSS reader open in a tab all the time).
Sounds complex but it really isn't once you get the hang of using the technology.
If you subscribe here (link below), you will get it emailed.
(This was noted on the page in the mobile version of the article)
https://www.nytimes.com/newsletters/of-the-moment?smid=nytcore-ios-share
Finally.
7
This column is EVERYTHING. Choire Sicha, you are a ROCKSTAR. Keep on keeping' on.
20
Younger reader here (20 years old), and I adored this article. Unlike the other readers in the comments, though, I was kind of confused by the answer to the last question. To an extent, I think I understand. But I was also borne to very young parents with very little money, so I made a vow to myself pretty young that I wouldn't ever wanna have a kid while I'm backed into a financial corner.
Am I just too young to conceptualize the rationale behind that last answer? Am I crazy for thinking it's too harsh? I'm honestly really curious.
4
@Saffron You make a good point and ask a good question, but, yes I do think that your age and experiences mean you are not considering one very important issue: the woman is already 35. She simply cannot wait much longer to start having children. If they try right now, and she gets pregnant in a few months, she'll be 36 and having her first baby. If it takes longer to get pregnant, which happens to older mothers, and she is technically already an older mother, she'll be 37 or older. Chances are this also may mean only having one child, when she might like to have more.
The student loans have caused them to travel a tough road financially but from the question it seems they have been steady and serious about paying off the loans and will continue to be. Frankly, given the large amount they still have to go, when WILL he think they've paid off enough? What if in three or four years when she's nearly 40 they still have $50,000 to pay off? The question is whether that alone should forever derail having children. One may say it would be fiscally responsible of them to give up on having children entirely, but one would not be taking into account the hugely basic desire to have a family.
32
@Saffron the answer lies in the age of the wife/partner (35 is already considered "geriatric" in maternity parlance), and the fact that they argue about it all the time.
She wants kids - now. He doesn't. The money is a crutch.
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@Saffron: I’m 67. You are right on track. You love your kids, even though you haven’t had them yet. You care about your unborn children. Just imagine what many young people do. 1. Get Married (with a honeymoon fund, to go on one too expensive for you). 2. Get pregnant while trying to build both your careers. 3. After having 2 kids in a one bedroom condo, you panic, try to sell your cramped stuffed condo for ‘top dollar’. 4.Buy a 4 or 5 bedroom house with pool in the back for more than you can afford (don’t forget all the new expensive furniture). Now you own 2 homes, first one won’t sell, why not? You have to have all that money, but, refuse to pick up the banana peels on the floor. This is how you will take care of the new home, wondering why it isn’t as nice as you thought it was. Their parents gave them everything they want, never saying a word about all the debt they are in because of it. Now they don’t understand that the world will not treat them the way they were treated (as emperor or empress) by their parents. They deserve it don’t they? Sorry, little idiots, no they don’t.
So pay off the loans faster by not eating out, buying tickets to pro sports, going on $20,000 vacations twice a year, only buying filet mignon, delivered, buying a new expensive care you only use on weekends, every 2 years. Then save up a down payment on a house. Then buy the house. Only then try for a baby, with no guarantee you’ll get one. Some don’t.
The first answer in this column was brilliant, and then I kept reading and they were all good.
Re: the last question -- it is my understanding that if you think about it really hard, it's never a good time to have children. If you want them, have them now.
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This column is fire.
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I read this twice to make sure I wasn't imagining that this clear and real advice was in the Times. Please marry me and take over my bank accounts.
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@Michael c
I won't marry you but I'll take over your bank accounts any day.
I'm going for a Masters in Accounting & Finance and need a happy guinea pig to practice on.
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This column RULES. Please, MORE!
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Waiting to have kids until you are "fiscally sound" does not win you more years as a responsible adult, it only means you get less time on Earth to spend with your children. The clock is ticking, except it's not a clock: it's an hourglass. Act accordingly.
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@Kevin Burke The most striking piece of advice ("...it's not a clock, it's an hourglass -- act accordingly") is in your response to this column of advice!! (Not that I didn't get a little spark out of the column, which was delightful).
I just wrote that on a sticky (hourglass not clock!) and put it on my computer so that I can remember this when I'm surfing the NYT for too long. Thank you.
@Kevin Burke: Then it’s time for Congress to remove special deductions for children. You want them, you pay for them, your student loans (with higher interest), live in a 1 bedroom condo, with 3.4 kids, never save a dime, so when they graduate high school they go straight to digging ditches, which is where I think most who are children today will deserve to be. Just don’t forget to have that .4 kid, always wanted to see what a decimal kid looks like. If you can’t afford a kid, don’t have it, them, the herd. Oh, no vacations, eating out, cable, movies until they are grown & out of your house, no going out drinking with the guys.
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This column and your responses are the best thing ever! The reality check we need. Thanks!
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@KV
Exactly. A breath of fresh air.
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