Emotionly and intellectually speaking,"Guns are boring,"
7
“I wear a pistol every day because I’m a Jewish person in the South.” Boy oh boy, do I understand that! I see no why people should sit by and be intimidated. Go out, get trained, get a forearm and use it responsibly. No reason, when potentially deadly force is in the mix, to be doing a Neville Chamberlain imitation. Change the price for bullying and see many fewer bullies you'll have. Also, a gun is not a bad thing to have when hiking in the wilderness.
11
ALARM = American Liberal Armed Resistance Movement.
5
Thanks for giving Georgia another "enemy of the people" and reason to crack down on those who vote against Republicans. Couldn't you have waited until after the election to publish this?
5
Best way to get the GOP to turn on the NRA and gun dealers is to have people with ovaries, persons of color, persons whose sex is other than male, atheists and Muslims lined up at Jimmy's Gunarama to arm themselves.
Barring that, removing military weapons from private ownership would make our beloved nation more liveable.
18
Remember Clarence explaining the meaning of the tinkling bell in "It's a Wonderful Life"? In today's world, the bell is ringing in the Kremlin and some trolls in St. Petersburg are getting their bonus checks from Putin.
4
After the Tree of Life massacre, I wonder how many residents of the peaceful Squrrel Hill community decided to apply for carry permits.
2
Good for the lefties getting armed. I can see no downside to everyone exercising their Constitutional right to self-defense.
7
If gun control advocates want to really move the needle on this dire issue they need to set up a program to provide free AR-15 assault rifles to any African American man who wants and can legally own one. It would be interesting to see how the right wing handles the contradiction between their love of guns and fear of black men.
38
In the same vein as voter suppression, I wonder how long it will take for elements on the right to embrace some form of gun control at least for "antifa" types.
4
I see a lot of commenters advocating civil war (or some such thing) if the election doesn't turn out their way. This is the kind of civil unrest actively promoted throughout Europe by Russian trolls in the St. Petersburg troll factory. They push for armed conflict because that's what they want to see happen to Western democracy--they want to see our faith in democracy shrivel, and chaos reign. Russian trolls are actively involved on Facebook, Twitter, and undoubtedly on the New York Times comment threads. They come at us from the right and from the left. It's hard to spot the best ones because they're sometimes native English speakers.
Democracy is always the solution. If you don't trust that your votes are being counted, then push for laws requiring paper ballots. Push for random recounts. Use exit polls to determine if a district's final vote count matches the exit polls. Think of democratic ways to make democracy work.
One thing that will never work is some stupid wish for armed conflict. The winners in an armed conflict are always the military, and conflicts are always followed by a period of authoritarianism. (Btw, posse comitatus doesn't apply during widespread civil unrest.)
12
People who call themselves “far-left, on many issues” (from one comment below) and think it’s totally fine, while thinking that far-right is the only problem, please rediscover some history books.
3
Once both sides decide to arm, we are half way to Civil War II.
3
I note that the photo illustration is for hunting rifles.
Is it churlish to deconstruct this image as one that does not comport with weapons used in self defense, the premise of the article? Sure, the shotgun. But honestly, we're talking Glock's and semi-automatics like the infamous AR15. Curious about the choice of this image, over the ones that would have more closely illustrated Ms. Goldberg's essay.
As a veteran and a former army officer I can tell you that there is a big divide between owning guns, knowing how to use them and actually use them to kill fellow humans. You are all better off not experiencing something like this ever.
24
I wonder how many of these folks have asked themselves if they are actually willing to take the life of another human being.
4
These people scare me almost as much as the right-wing nationalists.
Like Oso, I am a Jewish Southerner but I am a woman. In seven decades, several as a field social worker and addiction counselor, I have never been afraid as I've gone about my business, often in very right-wing areas.
Right or left, guns are not the answer.
10
Good article. I am a Texas Yellow Dog Democrat with three semi-automatic pistols. two shotguns, one rifle, a concealed weapons permit and three suppressors ("silencers'). One of my partners was shot and killed, another partner shot someone and I have shot a burglars. Did I mention I was a native Texan of a certain age ?
That said, I think guns should be regulated and permitted based on their lethality - the more lethal, the more stringent the requirements to own one.
14
I am a white male, 63 years old and a liberal progressive with 5 rifles in my gun cabinet. I don`t need to go to a range to learn how to safely fire my rifles, my dad started teaching me gun safety, marksmanship, and how to hunt when I was 8. I still enjoy shooting sports though I no longer hunt.
I do not think I am that rare of a bird.
9
The appropriate response to this nonsense is to cultivate progressive leadership that annuls the fear and appeal of gun culture, NOT giving it a national spotlight.
4
"If nothing else, an armed left might once again create a bipartisan impetus for gun control."
An alternate interpretation would be the left would join conservatives in support of the 2nd Amend !!!
4
Democrats and independents have 2nd amendment rights too. Mr Trump and his enablers whould do well to remember that.
8
In her concluding statement, Goldberg misses the point entirely. The fact of the matter is not, as she implies, that no one else will keep "us" safe, it is that no one else should. American fascism is not new; it has always been the price that the American middle class has allowed other people (people not white, not affluent, not heteronormative, not American, any or all) to pay for its safety, which largely stems from the false belief that its members have a right to live their lives without even the possibility of physical conflict. It's long since time for the white American middle class to learn what the Panthers knew when they armed themselves (and which was reinforced when gun control took their arms away) --until you take responsibility for your own safety, it will always come at our (for the referent of this pronoun, see the above parenthetical) expense. In this election or any other, how you vote with your ballot is irrelevant, it is how you've voted with the lives you've lived that makes Trump your president.
2
Thinking Jews learned the lesson of strength vs. passivity a long time ago. 'Inglourious Basterds' and Israel come to mind.
Anecdotal evidence of urban voters' packing preferences seems more unreliable than that of rurals.
Take Brownstone Brooklyn, the center of cool these days. Social desirability bias is alive & well there. Park Slope aesthetic, UWS sensibilities, & communal stoop life with its proximities, physical attachments & precarious parting walls, render any statement of fealty to guns (or to Donald Trump) truly perilous.
Perhaps that will change with the anti-Semitic graffiti, which included “Jews better be ready,” found written in black marker on the walls of the Union Temple of Brooklyn on Eastern Parkway, near Grand Army Plaza in Prospect Heights, just a stone's throw from the aforementioned study population.
6
'If nothing else, an armed left might once again create a bipartisan impetus for gun control.'
The apparent purpose of having the second amendment, i.e., the right of the civilians to own guns, was to prevent the tyranny of the (armed) government over the unarmed populace.
The hidden/implied part of the amendment is that if one group of the populace starts acquiring guns, the other groups should also arm themselves so that the armed group cannot tyrannize all other unarmed groups.
Simple but sad.
2
There is absolutely nothing "squishy" about being a liberal, especially if liberals can be counted on to stand up for what they (we!) believe in, e.g. "liberty and justice for all." On the other hand, it's cowardly to think that carrying guns and shooting inconvenient people are the ways to solve problems.
I'm very disappointed in these liberals -- how liberal are they, really? -- , for giving in to the temptation to arm themselves with guns. The suggestion that gun ownership actually makes one safer is a delusion. Rather, it puts deadly danger within reach, and the presence of a gun is much more likely to provoke the deadly aggression of another. Also, a separate issue, liberals ought to be committed to the *true* pro-life causes, of which one is to oppose the militarism of our society, and reject the false belief that the resort to deadly violence is an acceptable solution to problems.
4
Perhaps relative safety goes up with gun use, while absolute safety goes down? The more guns, the more often violence, depression and despair will lead to death. However for any given individual, carrying might (1) increase the chance of protecting themselves from an armed threat (a threat that intensifies as the rate of carrying increases) but (2) increase the risk of a completed suicide (sucide by gun is I think almost double the homicide rate).
Given these parameters, as the percentage af armed people increases in society, at some point the homicide rate may overtake the suicide rate, at which point everyone would be safer with a gun. (there may be a gender disparity in this, as firearms are preferred by males attempting suicide).
But I suspect the real driver is the fear that *other people* have guns when you don't.
If any private organizations get subsidies or help or assistance from Uncle Sam (which I think they do), they should be organizations like the SRA, not the NRA.
1
I simply don't know how to respond to some of the points made here because I don't know what people are actually saying, or why. It does not seem to me that everyone is saying what they believe. Some seem to be striking poses.
There is no major politician in this country who does not have an armed bodyguard, and this is true regardless of their avowed politics. Very wealthy people have security details as well. I'm assuming we all know this. Does anyone consider this "unethical?" Or unnecessary? Why would providing the same protection for yourself be wrong, as long as you were willing to train?
The United States cannot be said to have a significant Left. So when people speak of "the Left" here, and "the far Left," it is not always clear who they mean.
5
@Sonja -- I hate to say it, but here's the difference:
Politicians and people with money absolutely don't want to carry a gun or deal with what really comes from that, liability included. So the government provides a guard or they hire one.
That leaves them free to actually do their job, rather than being on guard all the time ... and in the event something bad and stupid happens, it's the guard's fault.
Furthermore, if shooting breaks out -- it's the guard who is engaging the shooter, and probably getting shot at.
Wealth and power hath its privileges.
If you take the do-it-yourself approach, you take all the all the problems ... including the fact that one can be a guard, or do some other job, but nobody can do both.
A gun in a holster is next to useless when somebody has one out and pointed at you, at short range.
5
I grew up around firearms with my father teaching me respect for firearms and how to shoot (targets only) at an early age. We live in a sparsely populated area where police response can be uncertain. Until recently, the firearms we own are intended for close range home defense. After watching The Handmaids Tale, I am going to purchase a high power long-gun. Just in case.
6
The thinking regarding this whole issue has gone far beyond the rational. Evidence shows that more guns in a certain area like the U.S. is highly correlated with more gun injuries and deaths; conversely, fewer guns in certain areas like some other countries is highly correlated with fewer gun injuries and deaths. Duh! I wonder if common sense alone would make such conclusions. But again, the "sense" about it is not so common, especially among the people who make money from gun manufacture and people who are very vulnerable to fear tactics. After all, money is the measure of success and human worth in this country, BTW.
4
I own two guns and have a concealed carry permit, and have experience of crime that persuaded me to become trained in this kind of defense. That said, I have been a liberal since Nixon and have been blue in Oklahoma ever since. Like many other people on both sides of the Divide, I see zero reason to allow individuals to purchase or possess assault rifles and/or ammunition. They are for killing human beings at high speed, for terrorists and fantasists, criminals and the crazy. None of whom should have them. I was background-checked, went through a course (and more), and fingerprinted. That's the least we should do. Don't believe the NRA; they don't represent all gun owners, and the tide is against them now.
248
AR-15 type rifles are well made pieces of machinery that are easier to shoot than other rifles. They really are not made for assault in combat situations with the semi-auto firing system. They fire one shot for each trigger pull, just like every weapon going back to flintlocks. The ability to fire multiple shots before reloading goes back to weapons made and widely used before the Civil War. Automatic reloading was provided with revolvers and gas driven ejections and reloading was introduced in the late 19th century. I do not think that these guns are used more in these mass shootings for any other reason than because it takes a lot less skills to use them and they are dependable.
10
@jb More people were killed last year with "blunt instruments" (e.g. hammers) than all rifles combined. Rifles are, and especially not Modern Sport Rifles, are not the problem people would have you believe.
7
Consider, if you will, "The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.” And the exit wound can be a nasty, jagged hole the size of an orange."
Further, most 9mm handguns will have a maximum round capacity of 15 rounds, while an AR-15 can have up to 100. The AR-15 also has very little recoil, allowing up to 3 rounds per second of fire. There's no comparison when it comes to mass shooting--although it's true that handguns kill more people, that is because so many more people have them. AR-15s are the choice of mass shooters for good reason, and a handgun has virtually no chance against one.
38
Liberals need to outsmart the right, not outshoot it.
An armed left is in any case about 200,000,000 guns behind the right. There is no way for the left to win an arms race against the right. An armed left will do nothing but produce more people like the idiot who shot Steve Scalise.
7
@Mike Collins I am pretty certain that statistically there are approximatley the same percentage of firearms owned by either side. Fewer people own firearms today than 20 years ago. However, those same folks own more guns individually. And, the average gun owner is middle aged and typically white. I believe I read this in a NYTimes article in the last two years.
1
A gun is a tool that you use to procure meat. All these fascist wannabees and the Horst Wessel sing-along crowd think of themselves as Rambo incarnate.
Which is fine. As long as you play Army at the target ranges and stay out of the wilderness. You'll just get lost and we'll end up having to find you.
5
The hysteria whipped up by this column in the comments section is mind boggling and whatever michelle goldman’s intentions here, sort of unconscionable. Two years of Trump and suddenly we’re back in the 1960’s and the Symbionese Liberation Army, contemplating armed battles in the streets? Another Civil War? We still have a system of law here people—Things are bad enough without acting like a fascist takeover is imminent in this country—and if they do take over, god forbid, I suspect they will be the self righteous power hungry on both sides incapable of ever seeing another person’s point of view. Calm down and go out and vote people.
10
The left-wing arming themselves is no different than the right-wing. It is to protect themselves from some perceived threat that isn't really there. As tragic as the shooting at the synagogue last Saturday was, the chances of getting shot in those types of mass shootings are pretty low. These guns though will outlive their owners or they may get lost or stolen during a home or car burglary. Then they will end up in the hands of kids in cities like Chicago where they will be used against other kids. But, then it'll be brown people shooting brown people and nobody seems to really care.
3
Usually I find the severe paranoia on the Left more amusing than anything else, but this gun stuff makes it deadly serious. It's really time to stop. Trump is a bad guy, but our country is NOT on the brink of collapse or civil war! As a matter of fact violent crime is at an all time low, and so is unemployment. Isn't that worth something? What were once dangerous inner cities have been transformed into thriving neighborhoods, all across the country. There are so many positive trends, if you can put the bong down and look at more than the sensationalist headlines. There is no fascist MAGA army coming - a lot of the people who voted for Trump did so out of boredom, frustration, or out of distrust of Hillary, and mathematics tells us that a good number of them must have voted for Obama. They're obviously not all rabid Nazis, many are normal centrists. And even with massive moderate support, Trump still got fewer votes than Hillary; the bottom line is, the majority of Americans are still sane and reasonable. We all thought the world was coming to an end when W. was President. This too shall pass. Don't go do something stupid like buy a dangerous weapon that could lead to a tragic event you'll regret for the rest of your days.
9
Many liberals have owned guns for years. Some belong to national clubs with local chapters, such as Liberal Gun Owners. https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=liberal%20gun%20owners%20™
6
"[A] small desperate part of me thinks that if our country is going to be awash in firearms, maybe it behooves the left to learn how to use them."
Well, DUH.
BTW, nice photo below the lede. Interesting that when you plan to talk about liberals with guns, you show hunting weapons, but when you talk about the NRA, you feature those S-C-A-R-Y "assault weapons".
Bias, much? Nah. 'Course not! [eyecross]
9
I've written about this a number of times (see: The Rifle on the Wall: A Left Argument for Gun Rights ( http://www.thepolemicist.net/2017/10/the-rifle-on-wall-left-argument-for-gun.html )
Support for gun-rights is *not* a right-wing position. Only in the ridiculous political discourse of the United States, where Barack Obama can be called a marxist, can citizens' right to gun ownership be considered a purely right-wing demand. The notion that an armed populace should have a measure of power of resistance to the heavily armed power of the state is, if anything, a populist principle, and has always been part of the revolutionary democratic traditions of the left. Per George Orweee: "That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." And Karl, here: “The whole proletariat must be armed at once … Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.”
5
America, you are being gaslighted.....
5
Very distressing. The NRA mantra is that the best protection from a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. We cannot allow ourselves to become as corrupt in our thinking as the right wing gun culture. Now there are two (at least) armed factions who think they are the good guys and the other guys are the bad guys. Firefights between them seem almost inevitable now. You think Charlottesville was bad?
5
As many people well know, while you are waiting for the police to show up, having a weapon available could be a matter of life and death.
It is also the great equalizer for females. Especially if you live alone, in an isolated area or are an elder.
Once you've experienced a serious, violent crime, being armed is not too crazy of an idea.
12
I will ask you one question Michelle Goldberg--if I search your columns will I find one on the the rose of the armed right? I'll wait for your answer.
2
The rise of the armed right has been going on for close to 40 years, at least. It’s been common knowledge and extensively reported, so there was no particular need for this author to write about it. This, however, is a somewhat new development spurred on by more recent right wing violence.
Does that help you?
9
NRA stirs fear in its members.
I am an NRA member, but their flyers are ridiculous and laughable. It'd work on people that don't know better. Every mailer is "the fight is on!" or "your rights have never been under this much pressure!!!" Really? 5-4 Supreme Court, Trump in office and a Republican majority and they're under attack?
They're going nowhere. We won, but the NRA wants money still so the fabricated gun war must continue.
Glad to see liberals enjoying their 2nd amendment rights. Now ,we should try to take their guns with government intervention and hear 'we're trying to protect ourselves'. Ah, full circle.
2
Now you've done it, Michelle. You've given Trump one more rallying cry to trumpet at his ridiculous don't-you-just-love-me-you-stupid-fools fests. The quavering gaggle of wide-eyed admirers who follow him around like goslings will now be utterly hysterical, envisioning every liberal as a gun-toting maniac bound and determined to shoot them and their families, and then impose Venezuelan communism on the survivors. It's like living in a Loony Toons cartoon, but not nearly as funny.
3
Anyone remember the '80s SNL sketch "Gay Communist Gun Club". with Phil Hartman and John Larroquette? Sadly, youtube only has the intro, but you get the gist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTRRfhcUBwk
What was once absurd becomes real. Scary times.
1
I never tire of explaining to the Right that fascism has a higher hill to summit than they did at any time in the past.
Women have been working out. Gay people have money. The Jews have nuclear weapons.
Stay in your bunkers, boys. The children of those that fought the fascists last will respond to the call.
It is rumored that the U.S. military outlaws use of weapons such as rifles against unarmed people. That is why Martin Luther King, Jr. suggested conscientious free people cannot lose if they organize peaceably. Do not be confused. The federal government does not even allow peaceable universal voting except for whites. The United States military does not commit unarmed military to tasks. The rumor is not true. The military has approved the contravention of the rumors by assigning troops. The only nation in 2018 with a policy to commit war crimes, by defining unarmed civilians as invaders to be opposed by armed military force, is the United States of America. We should but will not end stadium displays of Nazi so-called-patriotism and want to extend them to city streets. When voting, please understand Nazism will not be outlawed by any Republican Congress. The risk to our nation is inside its borders.
3
Yes, liberals need to start protecting themselves against their political opponents with firearms, said the spider to the fly.
2
With right wing white supremacist extremists already having amassed arsenals and organized themselves into armed militias that train for civil war and pogroms it is naive for liberals to think that being unarmed will save them. My relatives in Nazi Germany were that naive and they died not fighting.
120
I'm a lefty progressive and I've thought about getting a gun and learning to shoot. Then I found out how expensive guns are and my thinking went no further. Because I'm a poor lefty progressive.
9
Americans rely too heavily on what Holywood has fed them concerning gun violence. From our earliest age, we see people being killed by guns and watch the shooter walk away with nary a second thought. But a few months ago, I met a Vietnam veteran searching for janitorial jobs. He told me, "I ended my first human life when I was 18 years old." As I watched his face, I realized with shock that he was *seeing* that moment of death as he talked... right in front of his face... 43 years after it happened... it was still right there. I read these glib comments on these comment boards about "protecting yourself" and I keep asking myself "At what price?" What happens if you end a human life-- even out of self-preservation-- and then find you can't live with it? Why is it we NEVER seem to talk about the psychic toll execution takes on the mind, heart and soul? Why do we insist on thinking we're all going to react like John Wayne?
6
Suppose every liberal joined the NRA, instead of arming themselves, and wrested control of it and its lobbying power from the militant right? Perhaps then gun control would happen. Naive? Maybe. The thought of the coming revolt is frightening.
1
@anonymous
Give more money and power to the NRA! Brilliant!
@anonymous -- go take a look at the governance structure of the NRA. All the decisions are made by the board of directors. Go take a look at how they get chosen.
2
@anonymous Somehow I'm afraid they would find a way to foil the effort, but it's a neat idea. Get them back to their target shooting and gun safety classes, like in the good old days. But suppose they all went and joined the Democratic Socialists and turned it into a right-wing militant conspiracy? Where would it ever end?
I am very much on the left. And I am also very well armed. I have been for decades. I've encouraged multiple liberal friends to arm themselves. I'm not willing to only allow the right wing the means to defend itself. Also, as a woman, my 9 m m is the great equalizer. I may be only five foot eight, but I can put any man down if it comes to it.
I generally vote a straight blue ticket, but I have voted for Republicans when their Democratic opposition seeks to strip away my right to defend myself. The Democratic party would do well to recognize its liberal gun-owning constituency. Also, if Trump and his goons decide to come for you, you'll be glad to have us around.
9
Imagine thinking that being anti fascism is a bad thing. Real Americans have been fighting fascism for hundreds of years, and we are not going to stop now.
7
Basic training in the military takes six weeks to three months, depending on the service branch and trainee's program. It takes longer to train for the Rangers, Seals, etc., and the training is ongoing.
So people are going to learn how defend themselves by taking a four-hour gun safety course? LOL.
5
I’m a center left type and used to enjoy precision target shooting, up to and including casting my own bullets. I’ve probably owned 15 different firearms, but have left the sport simply because, for me, it got too expensive. The use of firearms for legitimate food hunting, target shooting, or reasonable personal safety is fine. It’s the hyper-right conspiracy theorists, armed with AR-15’s fitted with huge magazines, and possibly a bump stock, that give me chills....the ones who are itching to “water the Tree of Liberty with the blood of Patriots”....(or so called patriots). The Las Vegas shooter is the poster child of this “death configuration”, using multiple assault rifles accessorized for slaughter. Either ban assault rifles, or ban all accessories that turn assault rifles into mass death devices. IMHO, all firearm magazines should be limited to 10 rounds or less. You don’t need more for any legitimate use. I know that I would never use a firearm to settle national political disputes, or anything close to it. The American Civil War was horrendous, but we survived. We must never test that again.
5
@Fearless Fuzzy
Simple question. On the federal level you might possibly be able to ban the manufacture of, so called, high capacity magazines because the manufacturer is engaged in interstate commerce, but once they reach the end user, the feds, under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, have no authority to restrict them. So, how do you propose to ban them?
You run into the same problem with 'universal' background checks. In order to run a firearms business, you must have a Federal Firearms License and are required to do background checks due to the fact that you are engaged in interstate commerce. A non-licensee can not be required, by the feds, to perform a background check.
1
The GOP likes to brag about guns. I think they make themselves look ridiculous, what do I know? But I could see how some people might feel threatened by the GOP's lust for guns.
1
The number 1 purpose of the State is monopoly on violence. If everyone runs around armed and ready to shoot, we have anarchy. Warlord culture brings out leaders who don't do well in civil society. Think of Afghanistan, Lebanon and any other failed state. The common feature is guns and warlords.
We don't want this.
3
I assume some of those NRA firebrands have passports and travel outside the USA. How do they feel when they are not allowed to arm themselves? Do they wonder how it is that other countries don't worry excessively that one of their fellow citizens might cause them harm? Do they feel less safe outside the US? Just curious.
7
There are guns and then there are weapons. Guns are tools for harvesting food, weapons are for killing human beings, this is a pretty easy line to draw. Weapons (perhaps entirely unnecessary) should be in the hands of the highly qualified, full of the humility it takes to make quick correct decisions.
2
With the exception of a couple of years after I was discharged from the Army, I have owned at least one firearm since the age of 12, when Dad gave me a 12 ga. singleshot for my birthday. (If you count BB guns and pellet rifles, the age is pushed back to my fifth birthday.) Until 5 or so years ago, I never owned rifle, pistol or shotgun for the primary purpose of self defense.
I was an NRA member for one year in 70's. The rhetoric then was too militaristic for tastes of a Nam vet medic very happy to have come home without a Purple Heart. I had joined when I bought a lever action 30-30 to use for deer hunting, but the NRA's literature was already slanted toward readiness to kill humans more than table food.
There is an undeniable need to be ready to fight fire with fire, and organizations such as those Ms. Goldberg reports on here are good places to start. Another area of action would be to lobby for and support any movement for mandatory universal service. I believe a citizen-soldier conscriptee has a clearer concept of why the United States needs a strong military, and why it should not be staffed solely with volunteers than do those who do not serve and even those volunteers that make up the military today.
Gun control alone is never going to accomplish what those who would disarm us think it will. And the T-shirt or bumper sticker that says "Gun control is hitting your target" should be as applicable to the left as to the right.
4
The only actual solution to this mess is to repeal the Second Amendment and treat guns as the danger they truly are. Treat them like crack cocaine or child pornography - you get caught with one, for any reason, and you're doing 30 years, end of story. Then we might live in true peace and harmony.
110
@Samuel Russell More people were killed by "blunt instruments" than all rifles (including Modern Sport Rifles) last year. Guns aren't dangerous. They only seem that way when proponents of gun control flout high profile episodes and use the expansive term "gun violence" as a sneaky way to include suicides and paintball accidents in order to make it seem like the situation on the ground is worse than it is. It's not. And more importantly it is an individual right that "shall not be infringed." The Constitution doesn't grant this right, but rather protects it. The right is an unalienable and natural right. Repeal is not even on the table.
6
The embrace of the 2nd Amendment by the right has nothing to do with protection from a tyrannical government. The right uses the 2nd to intimidate, so those on the the left should arm themselves and assert that intimidation will not work.
1
My father was career military. Stationed in Vietnam during the war for 2 years. Came home a pacifist, but never gave up his rifle and pistol. He cleaned them. Kept them loaded and stored safely. I never owned a gun until I married Vet. who brought a pistol into our home and carefully maintained and stored it. We travel a lot across the country these days, by land, and increasingly see communities in the rust belt, bread belt and the Southern regions divided and in turmoil. So in response to the question I’m reminded of my Dad’s wisdom and behavior. “Pacifism didn't save Jesus,” my Dad would say. “And it won’t save you in a one sided gun fight, either. Be prepared for deadly conflict in this violent nation, as I’ve always encouraged you to be.” So I learned mediation and conflict resolution. Use my words, I would say. But my own personal wisdom tells me, a Progressive, now is a good time to take heed of my Dad’s wisdom. So I’m taking rifle shooting lessons and buying a rifle that I can handle.
I have always laid a welcome mat at my door. But, if anyone brings a weapon to my door, or my vehicle to harm me and mine, leftish pacifism won’t be at the forefront of my mind. Defense will be the only thing on my mind.
8
A million thanks, Michelle, for recommending the TV show,The Good Fight! It's keeping me sane in these last chaotic and tragic weeks.
1
It's impossible to follow the news these days without saying to yourself "Ah, yes, I see now how the great USA is going to meet its end."
I've never owned a gun, but recently I've considered getting one, not to protect myself from roving gangs of immigrants, muslim terrorists or inner city "thugs", but rather a far more real threat, white nationalists.
5
@David Fernandez, Huh. II've been robbed or burglarized several times, and not one of the perps left a KKK calling card. However, they did leave with my wallet, my stuff, and me shaking in fear.
3
Years ago I read Ward Churchill's Pacifism as Pathology, which managed to challenge all my hard opinions about gun control. And I've looked at Redneck Revolt and think their voices are some of the sanest I've heard in a long time, the kind of voices and people you want around when things go wrong.
Nevertheless, I would never touch a gun and am loathe to ask others to do that dirty work. On top of that, the guy who slaughtered the people in Pittsburgh owned 21 guns---- we can never outgun them. I'm still conflicted intellectually and keep Churchill's words at hand. Emotionally I'm not conflicted; protecting ourselves as individuals is only a very small portion of the work that we need to do.
@sherry
Despite what you see in the movies, he can probably only shoot one at a time. There was a saying when I was growing up, "beware the man with one gun - he probably knows how to use it." In today's world this applies equally to both genders.
2
We as a country have lost our balance. We no longer are Democrat/Republican/left of center/right of center, we are ultra-left and ultra-right. Everyone else are just living their lives and not screaming at each other.
Not to sound old, but the influence that social media has had on this cannot be overstated. The radicals on both sides have now become the voices we hear (often due to the decibel level).
We now have fascism on both sides. Either the 0.1% control everything, or an omnipotent central government dictates everything you can and can't do.
You are now either with them or against them. No middle ground, on any issue.
I do fear what we are headed for.
2
It may not be obvious from the heights of Manhattan but gun ownership among Democrats and liberals is not that uncommon; certainly not in the west. The use of the term 'left-wing gun culture' is itself a reflection of the ignorance and negativity of people like the author towards gun owners. Gun ownership doesn't make someone part of a 'gun culture' any more than ownership of an automobile makes someone part of a 'car culture'. And it's nothing new. We've had guns all along. If no one noticed us it's because we're not out shooting people.
9
Gives whole new meaning to "Annie, get your gun" I have supported gun rights throughout my seventy-plus years. (Well, deduct 15 for childhood and adolescence!)
Some years ago I told friends that what I feared most was the time when blood would run again in the streets of our Republic; blood generated from opposing citizens. Not outside forces. I hope my fears were not prescient. But, only time will answer that.
Sadly, Trump appeals to the underbelly of our society. They are cold, heartless and soulless followers who love a carnival barker; even a carnival barker serving up a witch's brew of hate, lies and intolerance. Trump WANTS a new civil war. He can create martial law and become the king he wants to be.
1
The first step on their conversion to conservatives! Congratulations.
5
@jaco
I reckon not.
You have got to be kidding: “Socialist Rifle Association”. It sounds like as set up by the Justice Department to lure left leaning people into committing gun crimes, or by a right-wing group to entrap them. What is really sounds like is a spoof for gullible journalists.
First, progressives are opposed to guns and believe that the 2nd Amendment should be enforced: The only people that should be armed are militias such as the National Guard to maintaining peace. Secondly, if there was a leftist group that saw fit to arm themselves they would not announce it, and they would not choose to use the word "socialist" in the name as if they were associated with a political party.
It is mostly the right wing that use the word socialist as in "socialist healthcare". Turn over the rock and you will find a Russian operative is behind this or maybe Goldberg is having a big laugh at the readership
3
Useful information only for propagandists, fear mongers and purveyors of false equivalencies. Thanks for that, Michelle Goldberg.
3
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots. It is it's natural manure" So said Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a friend. Jefferson and his friend were talking about "Shay's Rebellion" in Massachusetts. Jefferson never explained who were the patriots and who were the tyrants. That's up to each person to decide. We became a country because we had the mean's to fight against an oppressive government. Jefferson understood that. I've been wondering when I would see a story like this. When would the left begin to understand the the importance of the 2nd Amendment and when would they see that the best way to fight the right is to use the right's beliefs and words against them. As the right has said for years the 2nd Amendment exits to give the people the means to fight an oppressive government. You can't fight wolves by being lambs.
4
@Darryl B. Mortecum Does anyone truly believe that individual gun owners, or even groups of gun owners, could fight the government of the United States? Have you looked at our military lately? The most efficient killing machine ever created. And you're going to fight them with 9mm handguns, 12 gauge shotguns and semiautomatic AR-15s?
I'm liberal and I own weapons. I'm not concerned about an oppressive government; I'm concerned about some of my fellow Americans. Say what you will about our sick society; I'll agree with you...but I'm still armed.
1
@Darryl B. Mortecum -- Jeez darryl, you trot out that old NRA chestnut.
Go read your history and go read the whole of Jefferson's letter.
He was talking about the those who were hurt or died when the militia put down the rebellion:
" 30 rebels were wounded (one mortally), at least one government soldier was killed, and many were wounded."
All of the militia clauses in our Constitution were at least influenced (and many think entirely caused) by Shays rebellion. It is absolutely clear that Jefferson saw the purpose of the public militia to be putting down such things as that.
1
@Lee Harrison
Yes I trot out that old NRA slogan. Nothing would scare the right more than an armed left. I have read the whole letter. Jefferson knows the chances of armed rebellions succeeding are slim but the people need the ability to put up a fight. Being willing to fight shows the people aren’t lethargic about liberty and freedom. And it keeps the government “honest”. The government knows it can only go so far before the people will rebel. Ask Black Lives Matter if being ready and willing to fight oppression worked. I would say it has. The way Law Enforcement operates in this country is slowly changing. That would have happened with people being willing to face oppression.
For those commenters who believe that those on the Left owning guns is not the answer. Perhaps. But I'd take that answer every day of the week, before I'd take the answer for what happens when only the Right has guns in this country. We've had enough of a preview these past few years, to know what is coming.
One reason the Right has been so successful these past 40 years is because the Left has been so pacifist, so docile, and has (so far) refused to fight back. The Right sees our peaceful protest marches as nothing but excellent target practice.
Reach out to them? News flash -- they're not interested. They only want to kill whoever their "dear leader" tells them are their "enemies".
The Right likes to bandy about the term "stand your ground". If we on the Left had stood our ground against them these past few decades, we might not now be witnessing the fascist takeover of our country.
If the Left truly believes that peace is the only answer, then be prepared for religious and ethnic minorities to live as second class citizens at best, and perpetual targets of the Right at worst.
Try to resolve differences peacefully? The first time, always. Maybe the second time. Maybe the third time, and fourth time. But now? The Left needs to wake up and understand that this is no longer possible.
5
My father gave me a revolver when I was in my late twenties due to my having been followed and harassed by some good-ole boys only a lonely stretch of highway. He taught me how to use it, but to also respect the grave (no pun intended) consequences should I ever need to.
A few yrs. ago, the sheriff of a small town in western NC where I have a cabin, strongly suggested I buy a shotgun due to having been vandalized, menaced and stalked by a local trouble maker - a large man, drug user and bad guy (he is now serving 10 - 12 in prison for attempted murder). The gun was purchased, the sheriff himself provided instructions on its use.
I believe in the right to protect oneself or to feed oneself by hunting if so desired. I believe in registering, learning the proper use of weaponry, and that military grade stock with high capacity magazines should not be available for the asking.
I believe both the NRA and the excessive rhetoric coming from the hard right has been and is increasingly dangerous.
Then there were pipe bombs, and people murdered in synagogue because they were Jews.
Yesterday, a president ordered from 5 to 15 thousand troops to the Mexican border to "defend" against a rag tag desperate lot of mostly women and children.
He stated rocks were weapons and would be considered reason to open fire on these people should they throw them at troops or border guards.
I believe we're in deep trouble. Awash in guns, living in a powder keg, and trump's throwing matches
6
The author is a bit late to the alleged party. From the BBC, December 20, 2016:
"Gun ownership has traditionally been associated with the right wing in America but the election of Donald Trump has prompted some left-wingers to join gun clubs - and even start preparing for the collapse of society."
Moreover, the author is obliged to point out early that only some 30 percent of Americans own a gun and 11 percent live with someone who does.
But 69 percent of Americans do not own a firearm.
The story sounds alluring, but the facts are sparse, vague and far from new. This is, after all, a newspaper.
Come on people, get real. Guns are never a solution to any problem. Everyone knows that statistically you are more likely to kill a friend or family member by accident, and on a broader scale, having more guns in society disproportionately hurts vulnerable groups - children, women, minorities, the mentally ill. When guns are everywhere, small disputes are more likely to turn deadly, especially when passions run high and alcohol is involved. A big part of the reason for police shootings is that the police have to be so worried about anybody and everybody being armed; the more people have guns, the more paranoid and violent police will be, and we know who the likely victims are. And how are we supposed to heal our country, bring people together and reestablish trust if everyone is ready to shoot one another? The Left has to be better than this, it has to be the voice of reason, if liberalism is to mean anything at all.
3
When your country’s borders have become porous and potentially awash with illegal immigrants. When it has gotten to the point where these same illegal immigrants now feel they have a “right” to move themselves and their extended families into your country and be supported. When you have some invested Americans who are actually hard at work to open more doors to these unknown and unvetted illegals even some on the left will start to see what the right has been talking about. At this late stage they may even be thinking about gun ownership.
7
Nothing calms the far right wing rude boys down like knowing that their opposition is far from helpless.
3
I do agree the thought of an armed liberal might frighten the armed conservative into being more agreeable to gun control believing more liberals will be separated from their guns than conservatives, but...really??? More guns??? I can see the headlines now: " I thought he was going for his gun...". They even use that now when in actuality there was no gun. More guns don't equal less violence, it equals more. We liberals ought not mud wrestle with pigs, their on friendly terrain and might very well have the advantage.
2
I cannot believe that Michelle, who has been the most progressive voice on NY Times op-ed pages, would fall for the trick of normalizing the toxic gun culture just because it's adherents claim to be 'left-wing'. If we learned one thing from the #metoo movement, is that plenty of men (and it's almost always men) will masquerade themselves as members and allies of the liberal left, while secretly advancing patriarchal agendas behind the scenes. This so called "armed left" is nothing but a ruse for men to cling to weapons of war while posturing as 'saviors' and 'protectors', but it's all but certain that these weapons will in fact be turned on women as instruments of subjugation and control. We cannot allow ourselves to be fooled by the military-industrial complex that profits on murder and rape. Put the gun down, Michelle, and just walk away.
3
Wow. This is a win/win for the NRA and gun manufacturers everywhere.
4
Those of us who read and/or saw F. Knebel's 'Seven Days in May' know the trope of a Right-wing military takeover of our government. Those of us who have studied the history Europe and Asia can cite examples from Austria to Indonesia to Argentina of Left-wing armed resistance being turned into a military take-over by the Right.
Were the right-wing crazies to rise up, we must hope that our armed forces would resist such a take-over. The Left here is so far behind in an arms race against the gun nuts I know as to make such an effort doomed if what we are talking about is some kind of civilian civil war.
A war against ourselves is a war we lost before it starts. The 2nd Amendment is about states having "A well-organized militia" controlled by the governor and available to the Commander-in-Chief, not a free-range shoot-'em-up action movie. It is not a Right of Armed Rebellion.
Article II: "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army ... and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States" - Small comfort with the current POTUS, but not an armed melee aiming to destroy the Enemies of the People.
1
Like so much other right wing projection these days, they either become what they hate, or create what they fear.
For decades the Right defended personal ownership on the basis of a defense against 'hostile government'. It seems never to have occurred to them that this preposterous logic might spawn an opposite response to defend against the consequences of their hostility and the open-carry narcissism it currently generates.
2
Please, stop buying guns to feel safe, and stop buying guns to be intimidating.
Owning a gun is a responsibility. Not only to keep your firearm safe, but to TRAIN, to know how to use your firearm, and (more importantly) to know WHEN AND WHEN NOT to use your firearm.
If you are buying a gun thinking you will frighten the mob away when they come from you, you are a danger to yourself, your friends, and society, because that mentality shows that you do not have the responsibility to hold a firearm.
A weapon should be used ONLY to shoot someone or something with confidence and intention. You should NEVER brashly brandish or point a firearm because you are afraid, but instead you must TRAIN yourself to know when using your firearm is and isn’t appropriate, so that you may use it appropriately and in a controlled manner, that is rationally and independently of your fear, to defend yourself.
If you don’t think you could pull the trigger on your gun in the situation you bought it for, or worse, don’t know when it is appropriate to use a firearm (ONLY to shoot, NEVER to intimidate!), you should NOT own it. Period. You are only increasing the risk of accidental injury or death (or worse, criminal murder or suicide) to those around you with your irresponsibility.
2
@David Clarkson
Well stated.
Hope to see the majority of Democratic Senators and party Representatives echo your sentiments - preferably before the mid-term elections.
For there's nothing more juvenile than for a civilized society to believe that their salvation lies with guns.
@David Clarkson As a liberal gun owner, I applaud your reasoned, unfortunately not-so-common-sense approach to gun ownership. It's a huge responsibility.
I would add that monthly visits to the range and yearly review of your local weapons laws are essential. Also, before you think about getting a weapon, talk to a lawyer about the potential civil penalties to which you may be subject if you ever shoot someone. Even if you're 100% in the right under the law, you'll face thousands of dollars in legal fees to defend yourself, and you may still have to pay a hefty judgment. If you're not prepared for that, you have no business owning a weapon.
Depends a lot on your neighbors. Where I live, I know for a fact that my own (hypothetical) gun is more likely to kill me than an armed/unarmed neighbor. Other places, maybe you should get one, but if you feel that way, consider moving.
If you're concerned about government tyranny, sorry I don't think your handgun is going to stop our military that has more resources than the next 5 countries combined. Maybe you should enlist and work your way up the ranks, so that if fascism breaks out, there will be some internal resistance.
If you're worried about a 2nd civil war... I think you've got some time yet, and stirring up online paranoia probably does more harm than preparedness does good.
For the record, I am moderately lefty and support strong gun control. I think hunting is great. People should be more in tune with nature, and should realize what eating meat means, whether you prefer to kill yourself or pay someone else to.
WE have to arm because THEY armed. Then THEY need more and bigger weapons because WE armed. Then WE...
Just what we need in an increasingly polarized, unequal society.
Thank you, NRA, for triggering a Cold War at home. Your greed has hit a bullseye: us.
2
It was inevitable we would have come to this point. When one side is armed and is committing acts of terror on our fellow citizens, the other side isn't likely to indefinitely sit by and wait to become victims themselves. As I said to my wife a few months ago, right now most liberals would say they don't support Antifa, but if things become bad enough, you'll see lots of liberals begin to change their minds.
And we can thank Trump and right-wing propaganda for this dangerous and ugly place we now find ourselves in.
2
Very glad to see the left finally realize the importance of the 2nd Amendment. To me, gun right has always been synonymous with progressiveness. After all, who will protect the minorities and the vulnerable, when the state wont, or, at worse, is the persecutor.
2nd Amendment is not about hunters or marksmen, it is about self defense against tyranny. I would encourage the NRA to cast a wider net and try to bring these new gun owners and enthusiasts into the fold. The NRA can not be seen as being a partisan organization, but one that welcomes everyone who loves liberty and self preservation.
It would also make sense for these leftist to protect their new found freedom by joining the NRA or Gun Owners of America. Together, the right and left, can work to expand gun rights and share something in common: love of shooting. I have had some great conversations at gun ranges; it is a social recreation activity. With these new folks now coming to the range, it would be nice to discuss politics and economics over a friendly game of best grouping. Who knows, maybe shooting can be the catalyst that brings people together.
6
The extreme rhetoric of the NRA for the last 30 years about standing up to tyranny has been a self-fulfilling prophesy all along. To stop the logical insanity of their argument, of course some other force has to step in be it the government and/or now a petrified citizenry arming up. The other day I asked an 82 year old female friend of mine living in a retirement community just what are we going to do if the elections don't turn out how we desperately pray they do ( the hoped for blue wave) and her response was " I am going to get a gun." Me too.
1
Why focus on what amounts to a fringe group that represents no significant "left-wing" tendency in the United States? Socialism was never about a few individuals arming themselves, but rather winning the support of the working class, which produces every weapon and constitutes the overwhelming majority of the troops who carry them. Those stocking up on weapons in their homes are far more likely to shoot themselves or their families than they are their political opponents.
4
If enough liberal folks who also embrace the 2nd amendment with their own interpretation, establish their own mini armories, maybe then they will have some serious discussions in congress. It might take a conflict, a mass killing, between left and right groups. Maybe then Congress will take notice. I know that they will at least offer those thoughts and prayers. And the lobby dollars will continue to flow. On to the next tragedy. Repeat.
@Steve
What do you think happened in Las Vegas? Have you noticed the 'authorities' haven't really said very much about the motive of the killer?
This article is disturbing on many levels as it suggests that liberals have to arm themselves in response to right wing threats. What is going on in this country? What are folks arming themselves for, the attack of the zombies? One wonders whether there is a real leftist movement to arms or the author is offering an anecdotal story that is limited to this band of folks. The author or the illustrator seems to view any gun as a threat. The guns portrayed in the photograph are all hunting weapons; most of them are bird shotguns. None of these weapons are especially useful to a mass shooter. We are all on the verge of jumping off a ledge.
1
When Trump leaves office under the peaceful transfer of power, I'll consider giving up my guns, but I don't think he's going....., ever.
3
One can debate the merits of this response, but there is no Democrat with a grasp of reality who has not thought about the fact that the fascists have most of the guns. If justice is to be served, and this country saved, our fake President, his family and much of his Cabinet will be indicted, prosecuted and punished for their many crimes both corrupt and treasonous. Trump will go to any lengths, bar none, to prevent that from happening. I wouldn't put it past him to directly encourage violent disorder by his followers. It's very sobering. Is buying a gun the right response to the prospect of civil disorder? Maybe, maybe not. But it is not an irrational one under the present circumstances.
2
We desperately need sane gun laws in this country. I don't care where you live, you don't need an AR or 30-round magazines for whatever gun you're shooting. That said, I can't help but feel a little relief when Redneck Revolt shows up at a protest to counteract the militia psychos who are "policing" the protest for the other side. The armed right is forcing themselves on the public. The cops can't do much about it because the law allows it in a lot of cases. That doesn't mean we have to accept it or be intimidated. Insofar as armed leftists are a self-defensive response to rightist intimidation, great. Three cheers for Redneck Revolt.
And I don't believe we're heading for an age of mass conflict. More terrorist violence by rightists, maybe, but I just can't see there being shootouts in the street. People might be angry, but not "kill your neighbor" angry, at least not at a national level.
Mutually assured destruction can work between political factions as well as between nuclear powers.
1
Of course, the arming of the left is inevitable which will inspire more arming of the right, which will inspire more arming of the left, and so on until the whole country is armed to its teeth. At that point we all become hostage to fear. Fear of speaking our minds. Fear of crowded places. Fear of any public gathering much less participation in political life. Fear, fear, fear. And the most fearless among us will be among those whom one should most fear.
The arms industry must be popping the champagne.
6
Anony
“At that point we all become hostage to fear...”. What makes you believe we are not at that point now?
1
Finally! I'm a Second Amendment Liberal, and although I suspected there were others like me, I wasn't aware of them until this opinion piece.
Maybe if more of us liberals were firearms owners, we could demand a seat at the table to advocate for reasonable gun safety regulations. I believe it's possible, no matter what the NRA says.
1
@The Heartland I'm also a gun owner Liberal. 2nd amendment causes me some concern due to interpretations - like people read the Bible and we have 50 million kinds of Christians.
The NRA got hi-jacked years ago. It doesn't represent gun owners or promote gun safety like it used to. Maybe it CAN change.
2
Just reading this title makes me cringe!
From the days that the term "left" was invented in the French Revolution, the standing accusation by conservatives has always been that the left is a violent, uncontrollable bloodthirsty mob.
What we don't need is a meme out there in the conservative media about the "violent left".
That will be exactly what gerrymandered, conservative governments need to find excuses to make it even harder to vote and talk about declaring states of emergency.
It may be naive, but please let's not talked constantly about an armed left if we can keep the subject on something more positive, maybe even hopeful?
2
@Bryan That has indeed been an accusation -- not always and everywhere inaccurate -- as has the accusation of irreligion, and the latter for good reason. As James Billington puts it, "External and internal violence increasingly polarized politics and split the National Assembly into the original 'right' and 'left.' The subsequent equation of the left with virtue dramatized revolutionary defiance of Christian tradition, which has always represented those on the right hand of God as saved and those on the left as damned."
There is a deep connection between religion and conservatism, even if a number of religious people are progressive. There is likewise a relationship between atheism and utopian socialist imaginings of the sort best depicted by Dostoevsky. As we enter an age where increasing numbers of people lose their faith, we need to make sure that that loss doesn't disconnect them from all they once deemed worthy, as much of it is worth defending. (Most of the newfound rage for socialism is coming from secular young people.)
The subject of guns is one, at bottom, of fear -- although many things are motivated by the same. Conservatives know that, while they may be politically dominant at the moment, they are culturally and socially withering away. And which is more frightening, to be politically or culturally dominated? The fear of liberals and dangerous Others makes gun owners paranoid, and that paranoia makes liberals even more frightened. This is a vicious circle.
1
The NRA and the gun-wielding right-wing extremists have made plain that even in the face of scores of needless deaths they want to retain their access to high-powered arms so that they can overthrow the US government if they are so inclined. That's the deal they want people to accept: School shootings and other massacres for the possibility of future armed revolt against our government.
5
Remember why Reagan as governor passed gun control back in the late 60s? It was in response to the Black Panthers. And the NRA backed Reagan then. See, guns are fine by Republicans until minorities and Leftists begin arming themselves. Then, it becomes a problem that demands an immediate response...
8
harper's recently quoted a security expert as saying there's a 60% chance of widespread violence in the US in the next 10-15 years (civil war). i'd say there's a 60% chance every single day under trump minority rule.
2
Pardon my re-posting, but Red, Purple or Blue, rural or city, everyday experience with automobiles indicates that educated, licensed, insured, conservatively policed drivers are WAY less likely to endanger themselves or others than unprepared, unlicensed, uninsured scoff-laws off on a murderous ‘lark’.
-
Individual states should license and regulate firearms AT LEAST to the extent they regulate motor vehicles; that means according to local needs. We should stop playing the Russian Roulette Game of Open Sales Anywhere and improve the chances that our neighbors live long, productive lives. We’d all benefit.
-
Consider ONE of the benefits: if YOU injure ME with an insured automobile, I don’t pay the hospital bills, an insurance company does. Why should an injured party -- let alone the emergency services AT ANY LEVEL of government-- pay for injuries inflicted by some perverse shooter's firearms? Let the perverse one’s insurance company take the beating and, thereby, bring some 'free market forces' to bear. Free Market Forces --- remember those?
-
Sick, hyped-up or unstable people shouldn't have guns, not in any peaceable community. And the prototype for sensible gun control is criss-crossing the intersections in those communities every day, waiting to be voted into place. Nobody in this context is saying "Do without cars or trucks." Nobody (in my household at least) is saying "Do without guns". Just get real, America. Please get real. It is time to get real.
I'm a lifelong liberal Democrat. I'm also a union member. I'm also a public school teacher. I've spent my entire life living in large metropolitan areas in states adjacent to either the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans. I graduated from Bard College, one of the most liberal of the country's Liberal Arts colleges.
For all of those aspects of my life I have been vilified by the right wing, especially through its media noise machine exemplified best by Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. According to them, I am alternatively a "communist", a "pointy-headed intellectual", part of the "left-wing coastal elite", or someone who "poisons the minds of America's children". This vitriolic nonsense has been going on since 1988 for Rush, and 1996 for Fox News. I've been angrily confronted by enough of their audience to take this seriously.
I legally own three firearms and know how to use them. I am a responsible gun-owner, but I am in full agreement with my fellow leftists mentioned in this article. Fascism has come to America, wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. I'm not going to be defenseless against it.
11
This is very depressing.
4
I am a card-carrying liberal and applaud any ban on open carry - or closed carry for that matter. The day I assume my safety is assured because my fellow citizens carry guns is the day I declare myself insane for accepting that canard. In 67 years I haven't shot anyone, a record I'm proud of, and I will continue to NOT carry a gun. It isn't being a squishy liberal - it is being a responsible citizen of a civilized nation.
4
@Chris W. The Weimar Republic was a civilized nation too and look what happened there.
1
As I have been wondering in my opinion columns (columns of words) here in the NYT comment section, when will the liberals be arming to fight the tyrannical government of Trump? But there is a difference in motive for the Left to be arming and the Right. Those in the Right who arm are, and have been, arming as a demonstration of lawful patriotism. They arm because it's the duty of an American citizen. It's in the Constitution. Their fathers and grandfathers have taught them to carry on an American tradition fostered since the origins of the nation. When liberals question why they buy guns the the Right responds in Twitter necessitated shorthand, to fight a tyrannical government, as was the intention in the founding documents of the Constitution. It was a reminder to the ignorant left to recall why the second amendment was written. It wasn't a specific call to arms against a specific government. The Left on the other hand, who previously had no use for guns now declare that they are arming against the specific government of Donald Trump. See the difference? Their actions are an act if insurrection, especially since the liberal media does not tell the truth about the Trump administration. They lie and incite hatred against Trump's administration. The Left officially advises people to "confront" officials in the street. When is one of them going to "confront" with a gun. Oops! It has already started.
2
Interesting that you leave out the hate crime murders committed only within the last week against innocent citizens by the right.
1
@Kip
I didn't leave it out. I don't consider that the shooter was a representative of "the Right". He was a criminal, as were the two black radicals who ambushed cops in Dallas, TX and Baton Rouge, LA. I was referring to law abiding citizens.
1
As you stated Michelle the last time the Right showed any interest in gun control was when the Black Panthers showed up fully armed at the capital in Sacramento. The ink was still wet on the bill restricting firearms and Republicans were lined up to sign it before their pants were dry. I believe it was Mike the Rapper on Bill Maher who made the following point regarding his own gun ownership. While right wing whites are playing the I need a gun to defend against potential government tyranny, Blacks and other minorities are already living in that tyranny. When the police can shoot you with near impunity for running a red light governmental tyranny is already here. When stand your ground laws allow black teenagers to be gunned down for wearing a hoodie tyranny is already here. For some folks it never left.
1
I have often wondered why Antifa is not armed.
1
All this does is play right into the pocketbook of gun manufacturers.
1
Unilaterally being disarmed is stupid. The problem is that the rights have guns, left are having guns but what happens to the people in the center or nonpolitical ( most people are in the center)? It is scary. Are we going towards 2nd civil war. More guns means more violence . The democracy and civility are almost over in the only super power. Putin is the happiest and successful man today. We broke the Berlin Wall and dismantle the Soviet. Now the KGB old guards are taking revenge. Hope the leaders in social media pay some attention and Trump does not welcome Putin's evil activities ( knowingly or unknowingly).
As a transgendered person who usually minds their own business, it's clear that a craven fool has chosen to zero in on me and those like me because of who we are, no doubt to please some religious fanatics who would otherwise be ignored. Yeah, you better believe I'm thinking of getting at least one gun.
I know what you're saying, but isn't this column about the Left's arming itself cannon fodder for the Far Right, coming as it does four days before a pivotal election?
1
Goldberg steps out of her bubble to visit North Georgia and is now an expert on "gun culture" by meeting fellow leftists. I suggest another trip to meet a few deplorables.
3
@kwb She is not a leftist. She is a liberal and there is a huge difference.
Just so’s we’re clear, guns are way, way down the list of good self-defense measures.
Civil society, good sanitation, vaccines, a solid front door, and some basic awareness of your surroundings rate a heck of a lot higher.
If you do the training and the regular practice needed to keep guns around safely, there’s nothing wrong with them. But if you think you’re gonna pick up a boomstick and acquire magic powers, or you think you’re gonna get your hogleg out and up in time when some shooter blows into your job, you’re kidding yourself.
Oh, and lefties? If you start acting like Trumpists and thinking like Trumpists, you will very shortly become one.
3
I've always thought that the only way we would get gun control in this country would be as a reaction to blacks brandishing guns in open carry states. The problem with that is they would put themselves at serious risk of death in doing so.
2
This column is the ultimate in "What About Ism."
2
SHEER MADNESS!
7
The idea of the left arming to defend itself against the right is sheer folly. Before the Nazis took power in Germany, the Nazis were not the only ones with guns. Labor unions, Social Democrates and Communists all had militias. These militias where simply wiped out when the Nazis took power. Even though, at the time, the Nazis were a minority party.
The left only can win by convincing the majority of the people of its point of view. Remember, soldiers and policemen are also a part of the citizenry of our country. They have have families and friends, just like everyone else. Any government that ignores this fact may find that sometimes soldiers do not always point their guns in the direction that they are ordered to.
In our own history, The New Deal won because there was a national consensus in favor of it. At the time there were significant fascist groups in the US. The right wing lost precisely because the overwhelming majority of America opposed them. The Vietnam War became un-fightable because the vast majority of the American people, including soldiers were against it.
The left and the right win using totally different tactics. The right wins by fear, intimidation and cheating. The left can only win by winning people over to our views and convincing them to take political action. Like it or not, we have to depend on the police and military to defend us. There is no other viable choice, we will lose any other way.
2
Since the NRA is now a Russian money laundering operation, the SRA is a terrific alternative.
Left leaning gun enthusiasts know this fact and have stopped supporting the once great institution the NRA.
2
Wow, the left going from mobs to armed mobs. Will David Hogg be on board with that?
This development is entirely in line with expectations.
It is also fraught with danger. The judiciary and the police are unlikely to be evenhanded or impartial in their treatment of armed violence by right-of-center groups vs. left-of-center groups.
And a clash is sure to occur at some point. I can easily imagine a vile extremist extreme right-wing rally in which rhetoric is spewed and gestures are made with the express purpose of provoking some left-wing activist into showing or brandishing a firearm, believing himself to be in peril and without even firing a shot.
Al in order to create the excuse for some neo-nazi thug to "act in self-defense" and shoot him. If past behavior is anything to go by, the likelihood of such an event being investigated thoroughly and with a view to finding out the objective truth is slim.
Any opportunity to point at an armed left-wing aggressor will be seized and exploited to the full. Have no doubt about that.
4
After Charlottesville the main Nazi organizer appeared online, in tears, saying he was afraid to leave the house due to death threats.
I’m a pacifist, but at that moment I was relieved to see that Nazis have to look over THEIR shoulder once in a while.
2
I think it would be particularly effective if black folks and other minorities armed themselves to the hilt, especially in open carry venues, in vast numbers.?things might change.
"Threats from the right inspire a new left-wing gun culture."
And rightly so.
I never felt the need to own a gun until our White Supremacist in Chief called American neo-Nazis "very fine people".
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/us/politics/trump-charlottesville-white-nationalists.html
I am now fully strapped.
Very well done Mr. President.
3
The Left already has a vast reserve of armed street criminals in cities like Chicago, Baltimore and St. Louis. The major donors on the left should pay to have these criminals organized into "flying squads" to respond to the threat of an armed Right-Wing. The street criminals are already armed, and know how to shoot. They are predisposed to support the Left-Wing because of the Left's support of changes to weaken the criminal justice system. It is a win-win situation for the Left.
1
is this another foreshadow of Civil War II?
1
Yes.
For anyone with qualms go find some videos of Jews being rounded up by the Nazis, toddlers crying in the shambles, old women dragged praying by their hair, men run along open trenches filled with dead friends and relatives at bayonet point, and shot down like dogs into those same ditches while crowds of "civilians" stood by and watched with real dogs.
I had a great professor in college. He turned me into an anti-fascist and an anti-anti-Semite assigning such books as 'Night' by Elie Wiesel and having his Modern Era classes watch the full version of Leni Riefenstahl's glorification of the 1934 Nazi Party Congress in Nuremberg, 'Triumph des Willens' (Triumph of the Will).
I swore then that I would never stand by and watch such things happen again, as long as I lived. Never Again.
Sure, I know I'm outnumbered and outgunned. But I'm outcommented at the New York Times and that never stops me. I also well know I'm not as young and limber as I once was. But my guns have aged well. They are clean, they are well oiled, and though I have too little ammunition for anything but a last stand, perchance I can create some breathing room for some others more capable than I.
Then out spake brave Horatius,
The Captain of the gate:
“To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds
For the ashes of his fathers
And the temples of his gods?
Lost causes might truly be the only ones worth fighting for.
2
We are considering getting guns for our household. We have no intention of purchasing hand guns to carry outside our home, but have come to realize that people who live in our community believe people like us are evil and are willing to throw us under a bus to 'relieve their economic anxiety.'
One would hope it doesn't come to that. However, I am fairly well-read in 1930s and 1940s European history and realize that Hitler didn't begin as the Fuehrer nor did the mass murders begin until late in the 1930s. Much like Trump and the GOP today, Nazis had the full support of the churches as they took over 1930s German society because of their emphasis on 'good' families and banning 'decadent', 'obscene' literature and art.
It is a frightening time.
@Anne
Dachau was opened by Heinrich Himmler in 1933 where the vast majority of inmates placed there, declared enemies of the state, were members of the clergy who were objecting to Hitler's measures. He didn't have full support of the churches.
1
Guns and all the associated problems they cause will go away in our society once we elect and install an authoritarian-cult like puppet from Russia into our Democracy. One who delegitimizes and erodes our constitution and every single amendment to it. One who breaks down all of the structures and norms of our government and society that make the USA the great and free country it is(once was). Oh wait....Get ready all you folks on the right (and on the left). If you keep voting for 1 or 2 issues and supposed-entertaining tv personalities instead of educating yourselves on your government and understanding your entire party platform you won't have your guns. The 2nd Amendment will be the FIRST Amendment to go!
What's the point of promoting progressive ideas and peace and love for everybody if you have to eliminate half the population in order to achieve it? Although I think Trump is a moron and a maniac, violence in this country did not start with him nor will it end after he is thankfully gone. Lynchings used to be a cause for a community celebration in some places in the South; kids of my generation were shot dead or beaten by the "authorities" for protesting the Vietnam War. We killed over 620,000 of us during the last Civil War, and I am pretty sure I don't want to stick around for another one.
1
All though I personally think there are WAY too many guns out there, if there are part of a WELL-REGULATED machinery, I don't see a problem with it. Background checks, insurance, classes, everything you would do for a driver who carries hazardous materials.
There was a thing going around on instagram the other day. A father, dressed in full SS regalia, had dressed his son as hitler, and they went off trick or treating. Of course people complained, and the SS guy posted a message to the effect of, "welp, so much for the tolerant left". Some people have mistaken what a tolerant left means. The tolerant left went to war with Nazis, and only defeated them after a long, bloody, protracted war. The tolerant left doesn't allow Nazis to intimidate the citizenry for being gay, or disabled, or liberal. The tolerant left FIGHTS the very groups who want to suppress rights.
If my grandfather had been carrying a gun in Berlin in 1939 he would have been no less dead, but his death would have been seen as part of an armed insurrection, and any nobility to his life might have been erased. We remember the Holocaust dead, all of them, the artists, the Roma, the homosexuals, and the Jews, because they were not armed. That is their lesson, and the lesson I learned sitting on the knee of my grandfather's son.This was Gandhi's central point.
You can't fight firearms with firearms. They are the same stupid rock throwers when liberals bear them as anyone else. If you argue with bullets you've got a hole in your head. Or soon will have.
But, there's nothing new about the left arming themselves.
When Huey Newton sat in his big wicker chair with rifles at his sides, he condemned the Black Panther Party to failure, and many of his colleagues to death. He gave the cops a reason to shoot first, he gave the liberals, so deftly skewered by Tom Wolfe, a reason to fear them. He traded reason for power, though his power could never be more than symbolic, as can that of a single socialist Jew in Atlanta.
If you're carrying a gun, you're playing their game, and they're better at it, and there are more of them, and they love their guns, and look for reasons to use them. Don't give them one.
3
@Sera
Gandhi was shot by a person of his own faith.
There was more to the Black Panthers than their guns. They ran social programs, provided education to young children and fed people.
The best defense against tyranny is to vote. A tyrannical government will always have bigger guns then you.
The gun nuts on the right are just as likely to be mowed down by a tyrannical government as the members of the SRA are.
2
Quickest path to gun control? Hippies and Black folks with guns.
I encourage the left to arm itself and then take over the NRA. From there we return it to its sporting and safety past. In the meantime we send the crypto-fascist right a message: we won't be intimidated.
Scary, yet you have to admit the name "Trigger Warning" is brilliant!
This is saddest bunch of comments I've ever read on NYT. And that's saying a lot.
5
As Hitler and his Nazi Party were rising to power in Germany, his armed thugs (the SA) consistently and constantly fought the opposing Socialists and Communists in the streets, towns and cities. Armed Germans from both the right and left, fighting for power. Hitler knew that this was the surest way to arrive at that power. After all, he instigated the Night of the Long Knives specifically to save Germany from the socialist/communist threats that he and his Nazis/SA brought to the forefront in unending violence.
I do not recommend that those on the left or Democratic-leaning should not own guns or use guns for sporting and target shooting. In fact, it would help if more on the left would understand why guns are so meaningful to a segment of the U.S. population. Ignoring the issue, or wishing it away, is not the answer.
But I also do not recommend being pushed into a cesspool of violence that leads to even more extreme actions by all parties involved.
What’s the answer? I don’t know, but what I do believe is that the extremists are going to make this country worse before the situation calms again.
1
@Richard Thompson Jr
Correction:
The "Night of the Long Knives" (Nacht der Langen Messer") had absolutely nothing to do with any "socialist/communist threats".
The "Night of the Long Knives" had always been "Nazi against Nazi" and by no means "Nazi against Left".
In 1934 when all once well armed (!) left militias were already defeated - after street battles fought with firearms on both sides to be clear - Hitler Göring and Himmler killed top leaders (Röhm, Strasser) of the SA, the Nazis' own mass paramilitary organization using SS and Gestapo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
SA lost it´s dominant position then and was replaced as decisive factor of power by SS - until then a smaller and much weaker sub-organisation only.
Hitler feared a Putsch by Röhm and/or Strasser. Reichswehr (German army) did also. It was simply an internal lethal power struggle. The raise of SS was their reward for their "cooperation".
As a vegetarian, I don’t need a gun.
As a pacifist, I don’t want a gun.
I doubt civil war will break out, but if it ever does, let the right wing crazies come kill and eat me, my kids and my dogs. They can have a good old time fulfilling their deepest desires.
And then eventually they will meet their maker.
1
Easy now, folks. The right is just itching for their Reichstag moment. This is why their idiot is walking point with a boombox and a megaphone, banging pots and pans together. They just hope that some angry liberal will do something stupid.
Don't.
You see, my friends, it's not Trump you should be worried about. Of course he is hoping for a chance to hurl himself into an authoritarian mode. This is why he's blowing his dog whistle. But, pay attention to the person who is writing Trump's talking points. Worry about the bland guy, waiting in the wings, encouraging Trump to go out there and just be Trump.
At no other time in history have we needed to answer conflict baiting with peace baiting.
If we're all so smart, and have such good words, even the best words, we must be creative enough to figure out how to use them to remind each other that we are all far more alike than we are different.
Pence is just licking his chops, every time they send Trump out onto the road, to some town that is already loyal to him, one that the GOP has sewn up. It's not the crowd in small town MAGA country he's talking to. Trump's poking his finger in your chest, Prius driving, Fair Trade-gluten-free-hemp grocery bag ladies. He's hoping you flip out. But, especially Pence. He can't wait for a Christian revolution, authorization to crack down.
Trump, in my prophetic mind, is their stooge.
Don't take the bait. Love thy neighbor and vote.
8
The Nazis and the KKK have guns, and apparently some right wingers have pipe bombs. You can’t fight that with stern words and a good attitude.
1
There are times when my wife and I, both northeast anti gun liberals, look at each other and wonder if we are the fools! When this whole thing falls apart, are we going to be the only unarmed idiots....
This is simply another sign of what appears to be the left's current philosophy: Trump is a racist sexist and fascist, so let's all copy him.
To do:
1. Vote Democrat in mid-term elections
2. Get a gun
3. Learn how to use it
1
I've always wondered if Hitler could have been successful if even 5% of German Jews in the 1930's had owned guns and knew how to use them.
Better to have a gun and not need it than need one and not have it.
"Lefties in Gun Country Nervous" sounds like filler to me. I don't think an article about a minuscule outlier earns front page placement in the Times.
Ban the gun.
1
Hitler was appointed chancellor on January 30, 1933 by president Hindenburg. It was entirely legal. Nobody foresaw that he would become a fascist dictator. By March 23, 1933 he secured passage of the Enabling Act giving him the powers of a dictator. Also, a legal vote albeit with the help of some voter suppression. If you knew on January 30, 1933 what we know now was going to happen, what would/could you have done on that January 30th?
1. Vote (uh oh, no elections that day)
2. Complain about voter suppression and gerrymandering
3. Get a gun
4. Join a peaceful 501(c)4 left wing organization devoted to safe gun use and self-protection
5. Emigrate
6. Try to assassinate Hitler
7. Join the Nazi Party and go with the flow
8. Commit suicide
9. Go off the grid and hide in the forest
10. Kiss off your own future but decide not to have any children
11 Dream about how great Germany will be after the war with the help of the Marshal Plan and hope to survive
12. Start a revolution with some friends
Neither the Nazi Party nor Hitler ever won a majority of the vote before Hitler became a dictator under the Enabling Act, although he had some really great rallies to appeal to his base.
I am going to vote and hope, which could have worked as late as 1932 but not in 1933. I don’t know where we are now. What a difference a few days makes. Whatever anyone else chooses to do in November, 2018, they won’t get any criticism from me. But, no question, November 6th is definitely the last chance.
2
You know, this could be the answer to the increasingly irrational intransigence of gun rights nuts: if blacks and hispanics start openly carrying, it might scare a bunch of Trump supporters into wanting stricter gun control.
The only problem I see is that the police just might..maybe...react rather differently to seeing an armed black man than they will to an armed Good Ol' Boy.
Is the NRA (National Russian Assoc.) down with thousands of Progressives, Blacks and Jews running around with AR-15s and ammo belts? Me thinks the NRA supports White Privileged Males having unlimited gun access, but non-whites, not so much. Logically, no civilian needs to have military assault weapons, tanks, nukes, missiles, submarines or any other means of war. That's why we have a Military. These wannabe White Boy militias need to enlist or stand down. We need common sense gun laws to protect legit gun owners and non-gun owners alike.
What a sick, crazy country! I've lived in Europe, and Europeans do quite fine without arming themselves to the hilt. Americans seem to be the most paranoid people on the planet. Emigration to a saner country is looking better and better.
2
And man bites dog.
Please NYT, don't start reporting on weird outliers just to get some clicks. You're not Fox News, Michelle Goldberg is not Nancy Grace and there is not a significant uptick in gun ownership among liberals. Suggesting that there is is fake news, not something you want to be experimenting in at this moment in history.
7
This reads shockingly like an endorsement of an armed left. NYTimes editorial board ... pause for a moment and think about that.
3
For years now the cons have been telling us that if only the Jews had armed up the Nazis couldn't have come for them.
They must be surprised on two counts;
1. American Jews and liberals are arming up.
2. The cons themselves are in the roll of the Nazis
Ironic, no?
1
So now we have Goldberg advocating that the left go buy guns, just in case we have a civil war. Who in the NYT hierarchy made the decision to give this woman a column in these pages? Goldberg was fine spewing her identity politic nonsense at Salon.com, but I would think that this paper would be slightly more discriminating and have better judgement.
2
Oh right Michelle. Make nice to the armed left. It's so Michelle. It's justifiable if it's the actions of the left but unjustifianle if it's the actions of the right.
Read your stuff again Michelle and you might understand why your journalistic credibility is more than tenuous with mainstream America.
2
As a person of the sixties and a former SDS member i believe that all of us on the side of liberal America should arm themselves for the coming civil war against the rightwing of this nation /period
This will not end well for democracy or labor because, as almost always before in American history, the police and military will ally with the far right.
Again, Liberals are confronted with a dilemma:
------- Remain peacefully liberal and be exterminated by right-wing savages, or
------- Fight back violently and risk becoming the same as the right-wing enemies of civilization?
YIKES!
4
Fear drives people crazy. Crazy people either freeze up, unable to respond in any manner, or to do crazy things. Now we have a fearful left-leaning segment of the country turning to guns in the hope the guns can protect them.
Whether it is Trumpism, neo-Nazis, climate change, armed marauders, your local school board or your racist Uncle Charlie at the Thanksgiving table, you can and must exercise your right to vote the change you wish to see.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
You are on your own with Uncle Charlie in 20 days. A food fight is much better than a gunfight at the table.
1
To paraphrase the NRA, if the left maintain that it's crazy to own a gun, then only the right wing crazies will have guns.
Radical idea..Blue team fully supports Constitution , as it is written and publicly states this position. Yes I mean 2nd Amendment. Win elections by staggering numbers. Alternative is 51 / 49 % for as long as you can see. Result... takes away power and influence from the Idiot TV network.. Rhymes with box.
I was working with a 21 year old gun nut that while we were sitting in the break room stated that he would happily go shoot some Arabs (not the word he used) in Afghanistan. I told him he should enlist in the army and volunteer for combat duty. He quickly shut up and by the look in his eyes I could tell he was having murder fantasies. Most of these he- man gun types are nothing but scared little boys with inadequacy issues.
3
Reading and listening to left megaphones like this Opinion piece, is laughable.
You do know what SRA stands for I suppose?
But if not, then I’ll show you.
SRA = Severe Reality Adjustment. This is a technique of shocking some one into snapping into the right now and pay attention to what is going on around you. It comes direct from the playbook of the SS in Nazi Germany.
For a group to call itself the SRA and order their people to start paying attention to where the country is going, means the group is following the Nazi SS playbook.
Is the Left the new Nazi party? Why else would they be following those instructions.
And real sorry to wake you up, but if there really was to be a open conflict between right and left, left would last a week at most. I can see the left running around armed with leaftlets to fight off the right armed with guns.
Sorry, don’t try. It will not end well.
"Threats from the right inspire a new left-wing gun culture."
And rightly so.
I never felt the need to own a gun until the President of the United States called American neo-Nazi white supremacists "very fine people".
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/us/politics/trump-charlottesville-white-nationalists.html
I am now fully strapped.
Very well done Mr. President.
The filth that comes out of your foul mouth has unintended consequences.
1
Who are these people going to war with? The demographic trends are clear. The red state children are moving to metro areas that promise well-paying jobs and opportunity. Some of these metro areas, such as Austin, are in red states, others, like Boston, are blue. Highly educated metro areas tend to be blue to purple.
So exactly, who are the people in GA or Wyoming, fighting? Their kids who moved to Austin after attending college in PA?
Despite Trump and all the political turmoil, this nation is moving on and it is advancing. The younger generation is relocating to areas of opportunity, and are focused on the future. The people buying guns at Billy Bob's Gun Store will fade from history.
They adults who live in fear have one purpose but to raise good kids who will create a great future for all of us. I think they are doing that job and well enough. Their parents and grandparents can adapt to this change, or stare out their window and wait for trouble that will never come.
We're not as crazy as Trump wants us to believe we are.
Having & carrying guns, as with any weapon is in theory about self-protection. In reality, it's much more complicated than that.
When Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was shot, one of the bystanders who helped subdue the shooter was a man with a conceal carry permit. Instead of drawing his own weapon, he helped restrain the shooter until police could arrest him, Afterwards, he said that during the chaos, had he drew his gun, he could have fired at another bystander or he could have been shot by responding police.
When I was 9 or 10, we visited relatives who lived in a quiet suburban town in western Massachusetts. On the wall of the den, where children were playing, were several rifles & shotguns on display. One was not locked in a cabinet. It was loaded. My father, a WWII vet & former gunnery instructor, walked over to the weapon, took it off the wall, opened its breech & removed all the ammunition. The relative, who owned the gun & home was angry at my dad. But my dad told him, "As long as we're here in your home, no guns within reach of the children would remain loaded." He knew the danger the loaded guns & how to handle the situation.
What I've learned in my lifetime is carrying a weapon doesn't create a sense of protection & safety. More often it makes a situation more dangerous.
Understanding the danger of firearms or any weapon is essential & should be mandatory for all owners. Guns can be safe when handled correctly. Otherwise you're asking for trouble.
2
No, armed partisan militias are not a repeat of the 1960s, or even the 1860s--this is more like the the 1930s in Europe.
All parties had paramilitary organizations in Germany during the Weimar Republic; the division between Social Democrats and Communists--who, like the Nazis, sought destruction of the Republic--opened the way for Hitler by 1933.
Lesson learned, and by 1936 the world's communist parties had united with anti-fascist parties in broad Popular Front coalitions to defend democracy--which they proceeded to do in Spain when a fascist-military revolt exploded that July (although at the expense of republican norms during the Spanish Civil War).
Doubtless members of the SRA and other groups--particularly antifa, which takes its three-arrow symbol from Reichsbanner--are well aware of this history, as much as the fascists who marched in Charlottesville.
However, few Americans are aware of this 1930s history, nor how it informs the fantasies of both groups.
And fantasy it is--this is not Berlin in 1933 nor Madrid in 1936, with daily political assassinations and street brawling, even though President Trump's rhetoric inspires the unstable to violence. Our problem is the abandonment of the idea that the "other side" is a loyal opposition, which loves this country as much as your own side does. Democracy is something we have to work at, peacefully and civilly. We the people are better than President Trump. Ballots not bullets!
1
Hope for the best but plan for the worst--
What will the Trump Republicans do if and when it becomes clear they will lose the House? Given their behavior, why would they ever permit a democratic election to proceed? The new majority would almost certainly expose their unprecedented wrongdoing to the light of day. A Democratic House would protect Mr. Mueller and stop obstructing justice for the White House.
Mr. Trump's once-in-a-lifetime-money-making-opportunity could very well become jail time for the Trump family and the Trump White House. After all, forty-some Nixon people spent time in federal prison. What wouldn't Trump do in order to forestall that?
The Trump Republicans have told us in no uncertain terms that they are willing to do anything at all in order to seize or retain power. They have been willing to do irreparable damage to our democracy. Shouldn't we hope for the best but plan for the worst?
4
It is high time for the left to open its eyes and get real about the world we live in. As the son of a survivor, I realized early in life that it is madness to be helpless in a dangerous world, which is more dangerous for Jews and young women than anyone else. Idealistic talk about changing society to eliminate violence makes us feel noble and virtuous but isn't much use when real violence abruptly intrudes into our lives. In extremis, a .45 is a lot more effective than kumbaya.
1
Guns are not the problem...I own several rifles and shotguns, now infrequently used at a range to shoot plastic bottles filled with water (which are then recycled).
One problem is the concept that one is "armed" when owning a gun, and that this concept would enter one's mind...the thought of using a gun for offense or defense against another human is abhorrent.
Guess I'm just a lucky lefty who is thankful that they live in an area where, hopefully, people won't be shooting the place up.
@SolarCat "the thought of using a gun for offense or defense against another human is abhorrent."
To most of us, that's pretty much a normal feeling. But, unfortunately, not everyone in society feels the same and I carry a gun because I wish to have, at least, a chance to survive and encounter with someone who has few qualms about making me a victim.
The best policy course obviously is to make assault weapons illegal to private citizens, and start sensible gun control measures for everybody. And I have no problem allowing those on the left to legally acquire arms. But the idea that the two opposing militias may have to slug it out is crazy.
Having said that, I'm sick and tired of the political divide in which only Republicans stick up for their positions with anything resembling toughness or manliness. I still in my minds eye see Paul Krugman cowering beneath the glare of Bill O'Reilly when they had their debate. Just once I would like to see a Democrat stand up to a bully like that with explicit toughness.
The truth is, many if not most Republicans are milquetoast phony tough guys who have bought into the club on faith, don't understand the ramifications of their own policy positions, and expect the opposition to bend to their bluffing.
Intellectual honesty and a robust advocacy do not have to be mutually exclusive. Look at Teddy Roosevelt and John Kennedy. That's the type of demeanor change I would like to see in Democrats, not arming a counter-militia.
2
So what you are saying is that gun ownership is bad if the owner is a conservative, but liberals owning guns are good ?
1
Wow you just described a safe, non violent world.
As a well armed, military trained progressive, thanks for the excellent idea!
@Steven
This just proves the point that liberals have no overall philosophy other than “give me power”
2
I would love to get a “Socialist Rifle Association” T-shirt. Seriously. What a great name.
The problem my more left-leaning friends—who love to come out and shoot my very politically-incorrect firearms—have is that their wives won’t allow them to own a gun. Maybe they can show this article to their wives and get the wives to reconsider. Naaah.
Seriously though, even if you don’t own a gun you should learn how they work and how to handle them. After all, in a country with 320 million to 400 million firearms everyone is going to come into contact with one eventually. Ignorance is not a virtue.
2
@Duane Coyle No shirts yet, but the have other merch. https://socialistra.org/store/
This is emblematic of the corruption of our purposes, of who we are.
We established a democratic republic with the intent of non-violent governance and peaceful transfers of power.
I'm not advocating for pacifism. But even in the present circumstances there is a non-violent way forward.
The active Civil Rights movement of the 50's and 60's faced off against armed violence, challenging injustice, and was successful.
Nobody today would expect that a black person would have to give up a seat on a bus; nobody today would doubt that a black person would be served at a lunch counter; nobody today would question a black person staying in the hotel of his choice. Those Jim Crow laws were defeated without the firing of a single shot by the protesters.
In 1945 at the end of WWII Britain's colonial empire in India was challenged by Gandhi, and though mass civil disobedience the Brits gave India its independence in 1947 - without a shot being fired by the protesters.
Non-violence is not at all passive - it's aggressive, provocative, and expects conflict and some violence. Gandhi used to say that blood would be shed - we have to be sure it's Indian blood (not British). MLK went to school on Gandhi - witness the Edmund Pettis Bridge.
We are due, or past due, for a resurgence of non-violent mass protests.
Don't give up on democracy.
Having an armed left, an armed right, armed police, armed military, armed criminals, and armed nut cases - what could go wrong?
Why is it that so many americans see guns as the solution to all and any question and all and any conflict? Such a starting point must neccessarily lead to a lot of shooting. No other country in the world of developed countries are like this. One must look to countries like Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Syria and a couple more to find the parallells to the US, it seems.
1
If there is a chapter in St Pete Tampa, I am joining.
The Left now running to buy guns. The NRA, with their pockets being filled by gun manufacturers, could not be happier. How long before NRA TV starts running a show just for this new-found audience?!
@Arbee Did you even read the article?
This is a perfectly understandable - and valid - response to America's toxic rightwing goons and their fixation with guns. Anxiety is running high, and with good reason. But, generally speaking, more guns just means more trouble. Let's focus on getting rid of trump. That would be a good start to restoring some sanity to this country.
2
Liberals should join the NRA in droves.
As members we can vote out their ridiculous, reactionary leadership and change the organizations charter to emphasize gun safety instead of unlimited gun ownership.
6
I'm very left. But I wanted to learn how to handle a pistol. The NRA has classes on that. Called them up, and the guy that was going to schedule me made a political comment based on the assumption that I was right wing. I didn't disabuse him of that. But I think he figured it out. After that, they kept ignoring me.... But I don't with to be disarmed given the right is armed to the teeth. I'll find another way...
@PJF
He was screening you for leftist political sentiments. He was testing to see if you were a spy. You really don't need to be a member of the NRA, or any gun organization to learn how to own and shoot a gun. Just do it, but don't shoot yourself, or someone else.
I just bought my first gun.
I have no use for a gun.
I hate the NRA. The second amendment is nonsense in 2018.
I bought the gun because the government said I couldn't. fifty years ago everybody at a party I attended got arrested and then released with no charges brought. Everyone of us will now fail a background check because we were arrested (weed) and,since we did not go to trial, there is no record of the outcome. Ironically, two years later Uncle Sam put an M14 in my hands and told me to go kill people.
I think gun manufactures will be very happy if they get more profits by selling guns to liberals. This is a new market for them!
@MB Socialists are not liberal. Liberal is not left.
The movie "Lord of War" had an interesting monologue from Nicholas Cage. This article made me think of it. https://youtu.be/38vd_j7e2HY
Awesome smart. Also there should be a socialist faction in prisons. A multiracial red army option. Property is theft.
1
The conservative gun movement got a boost from the Panthers, which resulted in weapons control laws. White guys didn't want to be outgunned by black guys.
Since the right is armed, the left wants to defend itself.
But what happens when everybody carries a gun and defends against any perceived threat?
We safety and manufacturing regulations for chain saws and blow dryers and baby toys. We cannot have a civilized society with unregulated weapons. Even the wild west is not the Wild West.
@Occupy Government -- even the wild west had no-carry ordinances. The "battle of the OK Corral" was fought because Earp confiscated the guns that Clancey carried into town illegally.
1
Can it really be called a "rise of the armed left" when it's only a small fringe of left-leaning voters? I'm a white man. I was in the store the other day and had the most disturbed thought about that recent hate-crime murder in the grocery store, the guy who would have gone into a church but the doors were locked. Every corner I turned in the store, when I saw a person of color I thought, 'are they sizing me up thinking I might be the next crazy white guy in a store about to blow their head off while they browse the coffee beans?'
Republicans are all in a tizzy about this caravan of hungry, mostly shoeless, asylum seekers. They live in fear. They foment fear on Fox News by peddling conspiracy theories. But you know what? People of color have a legitimate fear of harm by random racists in random places. With that in mind, I most certainly would never exacerbate their fears by being yet one more white man with a gun in a grocery store.
Here's an idea:
Take the time and resources away from promoting your version of what is just more gun culture and use them to educate citizens and get out the vote.
This is just as horrifying as the NRA.
Terrific. We're all supposed to arm ourselves as protection from other Americans, rather than invading forces from outside our shores.
Mission Accomplished, NRA.
We would have been much smarter if we had concentrated on learning how to cooperate instead.
2
One problem with leftists purchasing arming themselves for self defense is that the moment you begin taking care of yourself instead of depending on the government taking care of you, you are taking a step to the right.
@KBronson You don't know the difference between liberal and left. Start by actually reading the Communist Manifesto or other works by Marx.
"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary." - Marx, Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League
London, March 1850
1
As a red-state liberal, I completely endorse this. If for no other reason than getting right-wingers to think twice. But the reality is that daily Trump-lovers openly fantasize about "destroying" us; and I think it's time to listen to them.
At a family dinner recently, I saw one of my rightwing NRA-boosting family members undergo an instant conversion when one of the women announced that her book club had been going to the gun range to take shooting lessons.
His mind became instantly open to the idea of gun control and moderation in all things when confronted with the reality of angry women taking up shooting instead of reading books.
For decades the right-wingers have been thinking they could wage war on us with impunity. We need to make it a lot harder for them.
8
The NRA has calculated that the more people turn to guns, the more they will join the political right. For a time, it's worked.
But now, that calculation has clearly backfired. If one or several of these left-wing gun organizations manage to prove a suitable gun safety alternative to the NRA, they might find themselves shrinking far faster than they fear.
5
I grew up in a small town where guns are part of the culture.
I don’t live there anymore, but I still own guns—locked up in a
gun safe. Folks partial to the political right seem more likely to make a show of gun ownership. I’m more center left, but it’s
not like I just discovered firearms. Me and, I’ll wager, lots of others like me don’t like to brag about our guns. But we own them and we keep it to ourselves.
4
The 'left' has always been armed.... of the top fifty counties with the most firearm homicides 46 are Democratic. It is ironic that areas with the lowest rates of firearm ownership have the most firearm homicides.
4
@John -- please stop repeating this misleading factoid ... presuming that you are actually engaging in responsible argument.
The top 50 counties for total numbers of homicides are of course the counties that have big cities with very high populations.
Take New York City -- each borough is a county. Total homicides per county look bad compared to Wyoming but homicides per capita look really good.
1
You left out the government sanctioned or military killing of private citizens in non democratic countries run by nationalist strongmen.
Or proxy wars like Syria where citizen’s are the collateral damage - by the 10,000s of thousands.
Add that to your numbers and see what you get?
You should come and visit New York City! - most strict guns laws in the country and by far the lowest homicide rates of any major city in the country.
And my, so progressive, so inclusive, what a terrible place to live.
You might like it here, everyone gets along regardless of faith or race and it’s very, very safe! ;-)
I hardly go anywhere anymore without a tactical knife and a can of mace. States allow a 3-in. knife. I almost used the knife once when attacked by three large men who didn't like my t-shirt. I took a few steps sideways and listened for footsteps. My fingers were on the knife in my pocket. Their next move would have been bleeding profusely from slash wounds. I would have moved in for the kill if they needed any additional persuasion.
I was amused that a conservative friend on-line actually thought I was in the wrong. Not now. Being ex-military I know how to kill with a knife and would have in self-defense.
There’s the path to sudden change of heart on gun madness. All the people hated by the gun crowd arming up! Watch how quickly the tune changes. Meanwhile, pistol, long gun, or a few of each? Caveat; You will be surprised how expensive it is, though, but also how much fun you’ve been missing out on.
3
Nothing says don't sexually assault me like a gun shot to the face. It may well be that if the left, women and minorities armed themselves and started shooting the argument for gun control might not be as one sided?
There's a price to be paid for having deadly force at your disposal. It requires you to have the temperament to have deadly force at your disposal 24 hours a day every day. It doesn't matter that you might have a drug interaction, a fight with your spouse or a temporary battle with depression.
If the Left wants to arm themselves they should understand that guns are not just a tool for self defense, they are a very effective tool for dealing with depression. 2/3 of gun deaths in the USA are suicides.
1
I don't necessarily support militarized politics, but I've got to give it to the left-wing gun groups: they've got some pretty clever names! "Trigger Warning"--that's kind of genius.
4
Given the fact that there are hundreds of millions of guns in this country, including many in the hands of those who are mentally ill or full of hate, refusing to consider owning a gun for protection based on a moral or political opposition to gun ownership is just as silly as refusing to lock your doors at night because you believe in the innate goodness of man.
1
NOOOOOOOOO . . . ..
Why do I feel as if the gun dealers are laughing all the way to the bank? I am incredibly sorry that so many people are increasingly frightened by the violent rhetoric and the actual violence by the racist, white supremacists, egged on by our White Supremacist in Chief. But arming the country is not the answer. Look at the Middle East. We have been arming both sides for generations and see what it has come to. Do we want to become another Yemen?
I have the frightening suspicion that there would have been many more people killed in Pittsburg if the congregation had been armed and people started pulling out their guns and shooting wildly in the direction of the sounds of gun shots.
Assault guns should be banned. As should bump stocks, huge magazines etc. And anyone who wants to buy a gun needs to register, have a week waiting period to allow background checks, and at least a month of gun education.
Just so you know, I grew up with guns in the house and my father and grandfather were hunters. As were most of their friends. But the thought of all my neighbors suddenly carrying handguns is terrifying. And all of you should be aware of the statistic - having a gun in the house makes it much more likely that it will be used by someone who commits suicide. Look it up. Not to mention accidental shootings.
We need to get rid of Trump and the poison he is spreading through our country.
4
I’ve been arming myself since OK city, when it was obvious domestic terrorism is a larger threat than foreign invasion. Yes I’m a liberal, proudly proclaimed, and also,not a member of the NRA.
And how many incidents of domestic terrorism have you and your gun managed to thwart?
@oldehamme
None. Thank God, I haven’t had to.
Way too much paranoia and hysteria coming from America's left and right. And the media (especially tv's FOX and CNN) play a contributing factor in dividing the country.
Try watching the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. (CBC) national network and it's clear that our network reports the news with less emotion and more objectivity. Yes, it's overall opinion is considered a left of center, but it's still far more balanced than the above mentioned American tv network rivals who value ratings above balance and objectivity.
2
Frankly, in my experience, many on the "left" (or what we used to call Democrats) have always owned guns. We just don't fetishize them or make a big deal out of it. Our guns are for hunting, and sometimes simply heirlooms handed down from grandparents or parents (both, in my own case). This particular instance of the "left" worrying about self-defense is the outlier to ordinary gun ownership that has always been established. Many ordinary (Democratic) gun owners simply don't support the NRA or its nefarious purposes.
6
Many of us mid-western liberals/ leftists have always been armed. But not necessarily because of politics. I grew in the fields of Missouri and Kansas where I learned to hunt, target shoot and safely carry firearms. There have always been weapons in my home. Now for personal protection, not hunting. Our best home defender is a 12 gauge pump action riot gun. My family tradition is basically the same as right wing folks. I'm just an AR-15, Smith and Wesson Model 19-packing snowflake y'all.
4
I have not carried a gun since Vietnam nor do I plan to do so. Fire draws fire as any veteran will tell you. What the country needs instead is civility and some rational thinking to solve the nation's problems. Armed camps with faux ideologies threatening civil strife should not be part of any political equation.
6
It is very difficult for people from abroad to understand why US citizens need to arm themselves with some off the most fearsome weapons available. The idea that these are needed for self protection is outdated, as it is dangerous,and is contrary to life in the 21st century. Added to this, is that it appears that firearms are readily available over the counter, to anyone. I get the impression that people feel undressed in the USA without a firearm. The last administration tired vainly to rein in this gun culture, but it's efforts were challenged successfully by the NRA gun lobby. Playing politics with people's lives is a dangerous and deadly game. Politics and or "vote catching" should have no place in a 21st century democracy.
The U.S. is a very sick nation when it comes to the need for armament among its citizens. There is no country among the 45 I have visited in my lifetime of 66 years where such an alarming discussion would even be taking place.
Vladimir Putin's brilliant strategy of weakening and destabilizing the U.S. by division of its people is succeeding beyond his grandest expectations to the point of its citizens ready to kill one another out of deep seated fear of "the other."
What a tragic state this country finds itself in! Its social fiber is not just unraveling but disintegrating, and weapons will never be the solution to sew it back together again.
3
In order to end this endless (seemingly ineffective) conversation, it's high time to update and rewrite the 2nd Amendment.
If all of you "law abiding citizens" believe that we are a nation of laws and that citizens should decide how their country should run, updating the 2nd Amendment to reflect a 21st Century America is reasonable.
1
@mrfreeze6
dont fix what's not broken
u don't have the votes, never will
hence the underhandedness of the left(who never has the votes)
cu tuesday
A clever way to go about getting gun control legislation passed.
If we see a noticeable uptick of left wing militia groups popping up and open carrying at protests, a GOP congress will restrict gun ownership so fast it will make your head spin, and they'll pretend they were always in favor of it.
1
Everyone needs to chill out! The far right has been “ready” for a civil war for the last decade. Trump is fueling the flames. Yes the “right” has a majority of the guns, but the left holds the wealth and the rule of law. Unless the US armed forces are deployed against the left, we will be fine. True “right wingers” want to be left alone, a few want to fire off their toys at black and brown people. But those few are lawbreakers. Any civil war would be over before it started, and would lead to martial law and a confiscation of weapons by the federal government. The militias would be the first to go.
Although Trump just changed the rules of engagement to equate rocks to rifles....he will probably say “there are very bad people on both sides.
1
@Laycock I think you should do some research into the indoctrination of U.S. military personnel by far Right Christian fundamentalists, particularly at the Air Force Academy.
It's tempting to think that groups like this can counteract the NRA culture. And it's tempting to think that if every one of the "wrong" people carried a gun wherever and whenever allowed within the law, we'd see gun control enacted faster than you can blink an eye. Sadly, it's unlikely. It would more likely just increase the number of gun deaths, including accidents and suicides as well as hostile confrontations, just as the proliferation of guns already has. And it would be spun into the fearful reason why even more among everyone else needs to get armed. If someone wants to get a gun for self-defense or sports shooting or whatever, they can do so, but to do so with the notion that we'll be better prepared for class or political war could only benefit the NRA and gun manufacturers in the short term and could only put everyone at greater risk long term.
1
We now have a wannabe 3rd world style dictator, spouting 3rd world style demagoguery, and now we’re seeing the start of 3rd world style violence. How long before we see armed confrontation in the streets? Vote straight D.
4
It’s about time. The problem of course is that it’s the gun business that profits, always a Republican goal.
And - there’s never been a guarantee that this nation would remain as one. We remain a political experiment, and people such as George Kennan have argued for the division of this country into several smaller ones. With the end of the Soviet Union as the Enemy, the bar for intelligence in the White House has been lowered (see G Bush and D Trump, both of whom gained their offices by the Electoral College, a corrupt idea that has not been reformed) and unity is harder to come by.
Armed civil unrest may become the way in which Kennan’s subdivision comes about.
One can, and does, legitimize the buying, practicing the use of, teaching about, carrying arms. From a range of perspectives. Underpinned, or not, by ideologies. Matrafied by words and images.In what way(s), if any, can self-protection become a culture of daily personal accountability? For words voiced, which never should have been transmitted. For harmful done-deeds? Or not done, but which were needed for menschlich daily living? When "arms" become the barriers for needed safety, in a WE-THEY thriving culture, of fisted instead of open inviting hands, who will build the "bridges" to mutual trust? Mutual respect? Caringness? Mutual help, when and if needed? When a "bullseye" is the target, where is the range for equitable well-being? For all. When "protection" and safety is lead-contained, and bound, WHO will, can, lead us to equitable sharing of human and nonhuman resources which are critical for daily menschlichkeit? A hidden or visible weapon?
Weaponized violating words? Deeds which destroy? It's increasing easy to arm. As well as to harm. Where do we get licensing for being personally accountable and responsible for what we choose do as well as not DO? Say?
1
No matter what one ideology, the idea that one needs a gun for protection is questionable at the least. Owning a gun increases the likelihood of being shot and more guns in a community increases the violent crime in that community.
Here is a good review of the research on guns and violence.
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/2/17050610/guns-shootings-studies-rand-charts-maps
1
And who will be enthusiastically supporting this movement? Why gun manufacturers, of course. Not only a new, broader market; less resistance in the legislature to their efforts to keep firearms accessible and desirable.
Will this organization lobby to make firearm manufacturers liable for negligence in their products or as accessories in crimes? Probably not. Win-win for Colt, S&W and Ruger.
2
@bugsii
"Will this organization lobby to make firearm manufacturers liable for negligence in their products or as accessories in crimes? Probably not."
Why should a manufacturer be held responsible for the misuse of them buy someone who purchases their products? Did the manufacturer encourage someone to rob a convenience store? If so then let's hold automobile manufacturers responsible for terrorists who run 86 people over too.
1
I have been anti-gun my entire life.
I can't stand the NRA and what it has done to foster gun violence in our country.
Each school shooting leaves em devastated and angry.
I have marched in anti-gun marches, I have been a Human Being with GAG.
Two weeks ago I asked my friend, an Army veteran to teach me to shoot. I am not sure I will follow through on it, and I feel squeamish at the thought.
Nonetheless, I being to several marginalized and hated demographics, and if they are coming gunning for me, they may take me out, but a few of them are coming along with me.
I will not be a sitting duck for the Nationalist White Supremacist Liberal Hating Urban haring Gay Hating Right-Wing Christian Soldiers of God.
11
@Ellen
Very well said Ellen.
Stay strong sister.
2
Two points.
1. Typical 911 police response time where I live is 11 minutes. Half the time it's higher than that. What length of time is acceptable in order for people to feel safe in their homes and apartments, and not need a weapon for self-defense? 4 minutes? 8 minutes? 24 minutes? I am truly curious as to what folks believe on this -- what the theoretical cutoff should be in peoples' minds.
2. If everyone in a discussion of a hot-button policy issue were armed, that conversation would be a whole lot more civil, I think.
4
@Observer of the Zeitgeist
"An armed society is a polite society."
The Far Horizon by Sci-Fi writer Robert Henlein
NO MATTER YOUR POLITICAL STRIPE, The fact is that only about 17% of bullets fired when shooters are under extreme stress, such as on the battlefields of war. That is true for highly trained and highly rated marksmen. What happens to the other 83% of the bullets? One thing is certain: If enough stray bullets are fired, they are bound to strike other human beings. During the Vietnam War, we learned about the horrors of "friendly fire." I still ask myself, What's "friendly" about shooting at and killing your fellow citizens instead of the enemy? Likewise, What's protective of children about arming teachers and having them get into shootouts with the armed, murderous intruders? Again, supposing that only 17% hit their intended target, where do the stray bullets end up? Striking children or school staff? That is a completely unacceptable outcome. Who's to say that trained school staff who do not achieve the level of an expert marksman will even hit their intended target even 17% of the time. Suppose they only his their targets half that often, or 8.5% of the time. Again, who do the other 91.5% of the bullets strike? Children, School staff, Law enforcement personnel? Imagine how a teacher or police officer would feel about being the cause of the death of a student, another teacher or another police officer? How could a community ever recover from such disastrous outcomes? GUN SAFETY IS ESSENTIAL TO OUR SURVIVAL AND THAT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! Vote Guns NO!
5
In the world of sports, there is a well-worn cliche: bulletin-board material. If a player or coach on the opposing team is quoted in the paper demeaning or threatening your team, that quote goes up on the bulletin board as a motivating factor. The "armed Left" is and will likely remain an insignificant percentage of the American public, but Goldberg's article will be on every NRA bulletin board in the country. Nice going.
4
@NeilsDad
Red states have Democrats among them. Guns are common in red states. The number of liberals and Democrats who own guns is not insignificant. Just read the comments.
1
I don't hunt and I do not worry about owning a gun for protection and besides where I am from protection is not an acceptable reason for gun ownership. No I do not live on the Moon? I'm from Canada. But here's the thing. If I lived in your country I would buy the biggest gun I could find. Admittedly my experience is limited to watching the evening news and reading the newspaper but it seems to me that being unarmed in the U.S. is just not an option.
3
@Canuck I've been unarmed in this country for almost seventy years and I've never had any problems.
It is unfortunate, that the NRA has adopted a right wing view of the world. The defense against tyranny is a principle of the 2nd Amend. that should be universal.
As Hubert Humphrey said:
"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." -- Senator Hubert H. Humphrey (D-Minnesota)"
Many do not realize that African-Americans resisted the tyranny of l government with arms before and during the Civil Rights movement. They still feel the need today.
Scholarly support:
Negroes with Guns Mar 1, 2013
by Robert F. Williams and Martin Luther Jr. King
Negroes and the Gun: The Black Tradition of Arms
Jan 14, 2014 by Nicholas Johnson
This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get You Killed: How Guns Made the Civil Rights Movement Possible
Dec 4, 2015
by Charles E. Cobb Jr.
We Will Shoot Back: Armed Resistance in the Mississippi Freedom Movement
Aug 22, 2014
by Akinyele Omowale Umoja
by Charles E. Cobb Jr.
This view of the need for arms will horrify many. White Christian privilege of the left suggests that minorities should just trust the Brie and Chablis set to protect their interests. No longer is this true.
Recently on the Bill Maher show, an African-American guest (clearly right) supported the 2nd Amend. This horrified Robert Reich as he was locked into the belief that guns were the totem of the right. What a shame.
2
Some people always seem to leave out the first part and most important part of the 2nd amendment “a well regulated Militia”.
Check it out -
Constitution of United States of America 1789
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
I don’t think they were referring non licensed, unqualified, paranoid private citizens walking around with loaded military grade assault rifles?
1
You have to be pretty naive and willfully blind to not see how close violent conflict is. It's irresponsible to not be armed in these dangerous times.
131
I grew up in Georgia and Indiana in big hunting families, and now have lived in NYC since 1980. By far one of the most safe cities, with the most strict gun laws in the nation.
Never once has it crossed my mind that I need a loaded gun to get through the day.
Guess I’m lucky, I can’t imagine living with that kind of fear and paranoia.
52
@Edward Good lord, where do you live?
15
@Edward...No. No. No. It is irresponsible to be armed in these dangerous times. It is also stupid. This 'kill or be killed' hysteria clouds the reality of arming the masses. Shoot first and ask questions later is a recipe for disaster.
21
It’s not hard to see where this opinion article comes from. The writer’s last name is Goldberg, she is employed by a company named by a fool as “enemy of the people”, she has a high profile and she is female. If I were her, my wheels would be turning in the same direction.
If this is what a great America looks like then we had all better wake up.
4
I am a middle-aged (well, 63 now) white guy living in a relatively crime-free upstate NY community. Before that I lived in NYC. For reasons I do not understand I never feared being the random victim of a crime. And I have never been.
What I fear now, more than anything, is that so-called "good guy with a gun" because he is the angry white male and he is trigger-happy. He is not out there protecting us. He is on a vendetta to take his anger out on someone, anyone, who pushes his fragile little button.
He thinks he is a patriot but he is just a thug.
24
This is more disaster in the making. Fighting guns with guns is not the way a civilized country works out its disagreements. When the Left arms itself it loses whatever moral argument in favor of peace that can be used against the NRA, the Fascists themselves and right-wing nuts who want to take the law into their own hand. Blacks in the 60's and even now, don't feel protected by our legal peace officers. That needs a solution, although becoming armed will just provoke more suspicion that all blacks are carrying guns and probably lead to more police shooting of unarmed people. We need to regain faith in our societal will to have a system in which we all are protected from malicious danger. That means supporting and monitoring our police and making sure that they protect us. Vigilanteism is no answer.
3
Before you indulge, look around.
You'll see there's plenty of evidence that gun oil lowers IQs and produces behaviors that 'range' (no pun intended) from psychotic to anti-social.
Gun ownership, not to mention concealed or open carry lowers civility faster.
So, arm up.
Let's be like them.
3
Takes one back to the 60s, black panthers arming themselves , suddenly gun control became derigour. A culture of fear and hate. Still.
In the old dodge city they took guns away because idiots, of all kinds were shooting the town up.
Sounds like a “ well regulated Militia?”
By the way read the Federalist papers and Monroe and Madisons letters, it was all about the right of local and state militias to stop
1 central power ( King or Federal) primary
2 keep guns to repress slave uprisings and protect slave holders rights. Number 2
Depressing is the kindest word I can think of at this time.
6
As a liberal leftist I have 2 handguns, I don't enjoy having them and would gladly surrender them if we had some type of gun oversight or even rational discussion in our country. As the rhetoric and division continues, I consider additional firearms, not because I love or want them, I just don't want to be on the receiving end of hate if that time comes. I hate this
5
I would leave the country, before I'd stoop to this. Makes US no better than them. Sad that it's come to this, and even sadder what it says for our future.
7
@Florida Guy
What country we're you planning on going to?
A key route to societal evolution would be for the economically struggling on the right and the left to come together to advocate for an economy that doesn't enslave them all. Conversely, it's hard to see how injecting firearms into that equation will promote rather than further inhibiting that outcome. While resisting through force does get the hormonal juices flowing, the reptilian brain firing, it doesn't seem to accomplish much in the way of the logic-based dialogue necessary to combine forces for mutual self-interest.
1
Or possibly the Trumps of the world would revel in watching us kill each other. I agree that the best thing to do would be to join forces and storm the castle.
I see our gross dilemma in terms of a standard disease model.
The pathogen is fear, an energizing element of human nature essential to survival when accurately understood, focused and managed appropriately. But without those qualifications, fear can quickly provoke self-fulfilling delusions that manifest in malignant behavior. And, it can become highly contagious - too often propagated as a weapon of social warfare.
As with most infectious maladies, the treatment of choice is hygiene. As a mental disease, paranoia is most susceptible to a convincing exposure to reality.
The difficulty is in dealing with the skills of demagogues and propagandists who manipulate the perceptions of simple folk to dismiss the reality of the most potent solutions as counter-intuitive:
"Befriend your hungry enemy? What nonsense!
Just shoot that filthy invader and all her dirty brats before they steal what is yours! And meanwhile, keep a sharp eye on those suspicious liberal neighbors! "
The good news: there is an antidote. It is kindness ... which has an infectious, contagious chemistry of its own. The trick is, it is a choice to be made, one person, one moment at a time. It begins now, with me. I tried it, and by the Grace of God, it works, every time. I see it in the eyes of strangers. And my shame slips away in humble gratitude.
3
Yup, another armed "liberal" here.
Which, for me, basically means I like to shoot and I'm not a Moron for Trump. I despise the NRA, and worry that it's tactics will result in backlash that may take my firearm away from me. I have no expectation that I'll do anything with my firearm other than shoot at the range.
However, I'm also no fool about the culture that the current Administration prefers and has absolved of responsibility for its hate, bigotry and misogyny. I keep my powder dry.
9
In 2017 a Gallup poll found that about 42% of households in the United States have guns and extrapolated from their findings that the 393,000,000 guns are in 50,000,000 households. Given that the party controlling the branches of government is whipping up fear at every opportunity, I can understand why otherwise sensible people are arming themselves. A lot of us had this notion flicker through our minds as we watched Trumpistan come to the United States. The "tipping point" has already been crossed, as with global climate change but all is not lost. I am standing and voting with those folks who still hold the idea that the MadMax dystopian future is not pre-determined and that restoring our government to functionality again is still an option.
7
This sentence in your article really stands out:
"This week, the group released a video interspersing clips of Donald Trump denouncing “globalists” with images of Nazism, anti-Semitic propaganda and anti-Semitic tweets."
That group is right, and they are only alerting to us to what's actually going on in this country, which is the rise of fascism, aided and abetted by the entire hierarchy of the Republican party. Sooner of later there was going to be blowback, and here it comes.
6
I have two shotguns and motion detectors for protection against home invasion (had one breakin 4 years ago). But bringing a gun to a protest seems extreme to me. Why attend if the communication walls are that high? In NJ, virtually no one can concealed carry and I am just beginning to like that when I see tragedies in other states caused by road rage...parking spot disputes etc. If you’re attending a protest where humans are wearing guns, you are not attending a communication event of any kind. Check your motives.
4
@william f bannon
I respectfully offer the correction “may”. “In NJ, virtually no one MAY concealed carry...”. Virtually anyone CAN, meaning in NJ only outlaws carry guns.
@KBronson
I stand corrected. I was surrounded years ago in Newark in the rain by four thugs who had split into twos as I crossed the street to their side...two dropping back then the two in front stopped and turned my way when I reached their sidewalk. An ATT truck swooped in and yelled for me to get in...and off we went. Yes...there is a good argument for carry.
Part of the problem the far left seems unable to grasp is that many left leaning "liberals" own guns and use them responsibly - me included. The far left wants an "all or nothing" approach to gun control and its going to backfire on them. We really do exist out here in "flyover country" and our everyday lives are no less real than those who live in urban areas. Just different. We see guns as tools used for procuring an honest and time-honored source of food - no different than a hoe or a garden rototiller. We don't view our guns as defensive weapons to be used against people. They help keep us connected to our food - something that is sadly missing from every supermarket I've ever been in. That the far right gun culture has gone out of control is without argument. Just don't roll everyone up in your haste to purge the "evil" gun from the landscape. Its not the gun, its the sickness behind it that needs the attention.
Too many rats in a cage will start to eat each other.
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@mark This is true and to add to it, left leaning gun owners are often silent. I know I am. Gun ranges can and often are inhabited by very, very right leaning folks and I'm not interested in starting an argument on a gun range about politics. Gun ranges aren't just for showing off. They are for practice, if you hunt for food you need to practice. So you often end up in an unfriendly environment just trying to practice a skill you will use elsewhere.
37
I think the Democratic position usually falls somewhere around banning assault weapons, bump stocks, high-capacity magazines, etc. I haven’t yet seen someone considered even marginally mainstream advocate for no guns. However, we here in Canada manage to make do without the preponderance of handguns and military-style weaponry that proliferates in the US. Instead, we employ our use of our best weapon against tyranny - our government-encouraged and informed vote. No bloodshed required.
67
@mark
How far left are we talking about here?
9
The left must get off its high horse and get behind guns. And not just for votes but because it's the right thing to do.
Gun control will do nothing to slow gun deaths because it really is true that guns don't kill people, nut jobs do. Only simplistic emotional thinkers cannot understand this fact. Of course there should be an absolute ban on assault weapons, high-capacity mags, and 20-gun arsenals.
Liberals usually know nothing much about guns unless they've been in the military. In particular they do not have the perspective (which is valid) of the rural voter. If a city slicker has a house in the woods, in the middle of nowhere, that liberal will want a gun. Bernie understood this.
There's a lot of votes out in the hills, but not for liberals that think they know best. They should embrace gun culture (and the flag) - the Republicans will become as confused as the Democrats are now.
2
@Fourteen
Banning assault weapons is a form of gun control. That's all we want. I speak as a liberal who has eaten many fine meals brought to me by my gun-owning liberal relatives who also want to ban assault weapons.
Declaring every liberal to be a person who wants to ban all guns is what the right wing does. You seem to be one of those who has been fooled.
I am a left wing person. I don’t own a gun. I currently have no plans to get one. However, I can’t say that this has never crossed my mind.
7
I am a staunchly liberal gay white male Democrat who took up shooting as a hobby 10-years ago. I own a rifle and a handgun and practice with them at my state-run range once a week. In times such as these I think it is only prudent that people acquire the means and develop the skills necessary to defend themselves and their families and friends if necessary.
Well so much for all those shrill class from the left demanding the Second Amendment be repealed. Left wing fears of a conservative dictatorship will send gun sales soaring through the roof.
2
@sharon5101 I always have chuckled at the far Right's claim that all liberals want to repeal the Second Amendment. Gun control and repealing the Second are only synonymous to the NRA and other extremists.
1
Hmmm. I can’t think of a single elected representative who has called for repealing the 2nd amendment. I think you’re getting that confused with common sense gun control;
@KST You need to read my comment again. During a second slower more dispassionate read, you will see I did not mention elected officials.
I have friends who consider themselves socialists and have repeatedly said that they are purchasing guns for fear of their right wing neighbors who carry guns around. This is in the Hudson Valley. They often complain that it is difficult to get guns in NY while it’s incredibly easy for me to do so in CO (I’m a transplant). The fear and paranoia I see is quite real. I personally am opposed to guns so we don’t talk about that topic anymore. Obviously not all gun owners on the left are like this just like not every gun owner on the right is like the stereotype. I see a lot of comments with doubts here, but I can confirm that in my experience what the author says is true.
After one of our many mass shootings the orange one proclaimed he could suspend habeaus corpus and just take the guns away. Imagine if Hilary said such drivel. The second amendment was written for all of us, yes we should arm ourselves. This guy scares me.
1
Is this all in preparation for the second book of our ongoing civil war?
Vote on Tuesday, paper is a better ballot than lead.
286
Only if the votes are *all* counted.
15
@Ian MacFarlane,
I agree completely. Civil war is a real possibility if the GOP cheats. It should be.
11
@KST
And people accept the results.
4
When the Government wants to impose it's will they won't have to fire a shot. They'll cut off the electricity, gas and water and just wait for the surrender. So I don't know who the yahoos think they're going to be firing at. If Trump can actually get active duty troops to the border for the Caravan, we're halfway to him being able to get them anywhere domestically, to do anything unconstitutionally.
1
@Richard Mclaughlin
Did you not get a text from the President a few weeks ago? Simultaneously with millions of other cell phone owners? Did you connect that with the President's ability to control all cell phone traffic in the country?
Why did all your TV channels become digital? Because the President can now control television transmissions. And government phones are transferred to frequencies allowing yours to be cutoff while government phones can still operate?
The Patriot Act made the government more powerful than many people can imagine.
The guns aren’t for the government. It’s for people like my crazy, angry right-wing neighbors who- if they thought they could get away with it- would patriotically execute anybody they perceived to be ‘traitors’, ´socialists’ , ‘terrorists’ or ‘illegals’ .
A leftist gun culture is not new. The Russian revolution bringing the Communists to power was brought about by the armed left. The same happened in China. Castro took over Cuba with arms. Maduro, another hero of the left, still controls Venezuela with arms. And, in the USA we have police officers killed with long guns and hand guns. The worst coming to mind is the killing of multiple police officers in Texas. This was even before Trump was elected. The left is synonymous with extremists who do not hesitate to use arms or if they do not happen to have guns they will use whatever is at hand to destroy property and hurt people. This was ANTIFA in Berkeley and we just saw the same in Portland.
1
What about your personal defense when governments fail to provide for basic services, police protection, fire protection and anarchy and lawlessness starts to grow? Who is going to protect you?
1
When I first saw Schindler's List, the thought that came unbidden to my mind as Jewish people were being dragged from their homes was "If they'd only had some guns." Would they have defeated the Nazi army? Of course not, but maybe they would've thought twice before kicking in a door. We all feel protected by the laws. But when they come for us, that won't matter. It can't happen here? Not betting my life on that.
5
@Rob Porter
In Germany Jews were required to turn in their firearms, preparation for the Final Solution.
The organization Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JFPO.org) is determined that that will never happen again.
Somewhere, gun manufacturing executives are sitting in a mahogany-panelled room smoking big cigars and smiling.
354
@Boring Tool
Yeah, I don't like it either. The oldest conspiracy tactic is to generate conspiracy theories to get people to act out of fear. That appears to be the contemporary NRA's entire M.O.
That said, I don't want to be unarmed should some white nationalist show up at my door and demand to see my MAGA hat.
7
@Boring Tool
Guns, like lawyers, preachers and bacteria, are self-perpetuating.
The existence of one always leads to the creation of more.
5
@Boring Tool: And writing big checks to the NRA. BTW, over 80% of the NRA's money comes from the Gun Industry, not members.
7
As an aging leftie who received a shotgun for his twelfth birthday, a goyim Bar Mitzvah, and who owns multiple hunting guns I am happy to see more people on the Left learning how to shoot and buying guns.
I also hope they also push for banning magazines that hold more than five rounds as the only way to reduce mass casualties and have no fantasies of defending the country against a right wing armed attack for that is simply not going to happen. But having a gun around and knowing how to use it for defense against solo or a small group of Fascists may not be the worse idea in the world.
Never show up to a gun fight with only a knife.
124
@Edward Blau: "When seconds matter, the police are only minutes away."
I am the son of two of FDR's Democrats, I vote for the person not the party. This time I voted straight blue, but I have owned guns since I was six, over fifty years ago.
Go Beto, go blue.
17
@Edward Blau Should you ever find yourself in that confrontation with the fascists, you may wish you had those magazines back.
3
@Edward Blau
Then you should have many 30 round magazines for your guns. If you can be trusted with a five round magazine then you can be trusted with a 30 round magazine.
3
Is this type of article really helpful in this day and age? You just gave Fox News more ammo, (pun intended), to whip the right wing trump base into a frenzy and fear of the left/socialist revolution.
Stop terrorizing people with fear.
We can only tempt the gods so much before they punish us with our own folly.
5
Like the first, the second admendment is for all.
3
Correction, Ms. Goldberg writes "In the late 1960s and early 1970s, parts of the radical left fetishized firearms."
Actually, the Deacons for Defense, the forerunners of the Black Panther Party, armed themselves in rural Alabama, not out of any gun fetish, but to defend themselves against Klan violence. In those areas the Klan and the local police were one and the same.
The BPP itself only advocated being armed for self defense because of the rampant police violence in black communities.
If you review the Ten Point Program of the Black Panther Party it hardly comes across as "extremists."
These groups armed themselves because the state not only failed to protect them, too often the state (meaning the local sheriff) was the purveyor of violence against them.
They were nothing like these white nationalist groups who are openly arming to take the law into their own hands. We saw what that looks like in Pittsburg.
2
It is no wonder I refuse to step foot in your country as long as Trump is your president. At first, my pledge was based on Trump's lack of morality, his misogyny, his bigotry and his fear-mongering. Then, during the NAFTA negotiations I dug in deeper swearing I would not contribute a nickel to Trump's ability to brag about your booming economy, (as if that is the only thing that makes a country great). His bullying tactics against Canada have
left many other Canadians feeling as I do, disgusted by Trump's tactics and treatment of your closest ally and biggest trading partner, CANADA.
After the Pittsburgh massacre, (and I could list other horrific events), I can now solidly add fear to the reasons I will not visit the United States until your country rids itself of this fascist president.
Trump has tapped in to the underbelly of your country, found
his sweet spot, and he will exploit it, ignite it, and tear your country to shreds to get his “win”. And, if turning to guns is the last option Michelle, then you are looking at a clash of civility
and a domestic war.
1
Only when many of the NON-right wing have firearms will there be serious discussion about limiting them. Yes, just like Reagan and the Black Panthers.
3
@Gregory Y
By that time there won't be enough non-firearm owners left to make a difference. The Left will finally understand what the Right has been fighting for at long last when they are as threatened as they've been by government action against ownership.
As a somewhat right wing leaning libertarian, I welcome my fellow citizens (of any and all political persuasions) exercising their fundamental constitutional right. Having personally walked through burned out Moslem villages in Karabakh (google Agdam, Azerbaijan), burned out Christian villages in Kosovo and burned out Yazidi villages in Iraq, I have precious little faith in “other’s” protecting me/you. Better to have and not need, them need and not have.
5
It is about time that vulnerable groups in this country take advantage of their gun rights. As a Jew I have always been amazed that most American Jews disdain guns giving our history.
6
@Todd
Not all Jews. Check out the website of Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. (JFPO.org)
Good Lord! Americans, please come to your senses. Australia, here I come!
2
Ironic that the left would participate in something the vote against. But then hypocrisy is the DNC moto.
3
Not hypocrisy at all. One can participate in the system while still fighting to change it. I think the tax system- with all its giveaways and loopholes for the rich- stinks and needs to change; and I vote accordingly. But until it does, you can bet I deduct my mortgage interest when I do my taxes every year. Why should the Waltons and Trumps be the only ones to benefit?
1
@Robert the DNC is not socialist and liberal is not the same as left. Socialists do not not consider themselves liberals by any means and the only socialists in the various democratic parties (state and/or local) are there to move the party away from liberalism (capitalist) and towards being a truly leftist party. Most socialists are not involved in and actually dislike the Democratic Party in its current state.
@Robert How do we vote against guns? Please explain. Just because we vote for reasonable gun control does mean we are all thoroughly anti-gun. And we are not a monolithic group by any means. Your statement is narrow and exhibits a notable lack of knowledge, and a pettiness that is beneath this column.
1
I’m old, I can’t see that well anymore, and I can’t shoot straight. The only reason I know I can’t shoot straight is because my gun-owning hunter relatives put a rifle in my hands a couple of times. That was twenty years ago when the idea of owning a gun was as foreign an idea to this desk jockey as starting an emu ranch.
My first thought after the election two years ago was that maybe I ought to get a firearms license, something that’s not all that easy to do in my state--unlike in a state like Missouri where the only requirement is to be alive. Since I live in Massachusetts and not in Missouri or South Carolina or Georgia, the urgency sort of passed.
I’m disgusted that people like my liberal-Democrat gun-owning food-shooting relatives let our ‘gun culture’ be defined by the right-wing nut jobs at the NRA. There are many Democrats in red states—they don’t win elections, but they still live there. They own guns because they were brought up with guns. Why these people didn’t get together long ago to put an end to this para-military ‘everybody is an enemy’ mindset is beyond me. But, they didn’t, and things have gotten out of hand.
Once I finish this comment, I’m off to the S.R.A. website to see if anyone has started a Massachusetts chapter. Maybe new eyeglasses will help.
2
The armed left is a VERY GOOD IDEA. and long overdue. As long as the fascists have all the guns the values I grew up respecting, and that my father spent four years in Europe fighting for seventy years ago, will be in danger. I am only sorry that I am too old to apply for arms permits. It will come to arms if trump and his Nazi friends are not removed from offices.
2
I’m a Jew in Massachusetts and a long time advocate of gun control. After Pittsburgh, I’m considering getting a gun.
The real difference to me is: Before Pittsburgh, I would never even consider pointing a gun at another human being.
Now I am compelled to because I take the phrase “Never Again” very seriously. It’s obvious Trump intends to re-establish a permanent, racist, anti-Semitic culture, backed by a quasi-fascist regime. Jews everywhere should be prepared to resist this at all cost.
3
Back when the constitution was written an armed population could take on a tyrannical government. The very idea of taking on a tyrannical government today is absurd. You can have all the AR-15s, bump stocks and huge magazines you want, today's military would wipe you out in the blink of an eye.
2
@Carole A. Dunn
Ponder these?
The Irish Republican Army, Shining Path (Peru,) Irgun Zvi Leumi, (the future Israel0 July 26th Brigade (Cuba), Sandinistas (Nicaragua), Viet Minh and Viet Cong (Vietnam) The American Revolution (British colony)
You assume that military personnel would be willing to fire on their family members and fellow Americans. Regular army forces don't beat guerrillas.
@NYHUGUENOT -- the IRA didn't win. Shining Path didn't win. The Sandinistas didn't win.
The Sunni and Shia irregulars in Iraq lost, and they learned really quickly that anything other than sniping and IEDs was suicide.
We may quit Afghanistan, I think we should ... but that's because there's nothing there worth it for us. Until we leave, they can't win.
The American Revolution won because (a) long way from England and only one of many colonies, and (b) France provided our arms AND a Navy that trapped Cornwallis.
We lost the Viet Nam war because Viet Nam wasn't even a colony, and Russia and China provided their weapons.
You are crazy if you think you can fight the American military here at home with no external support, unless it defects.
Who are you planning to get your military supplies from? Russia?
1
We on the left need to see the nuances of gun ownership. There are plenty of great reasons to arm ourselves. When my husband and I used to visit our vacation home we kept a gun there. We trained to use it. We were more than an hour from help from the sheriff. I had a Smith and Wesson air weight and was ready to use it. We kept it at the house because we needed it there but never took it to the city we live in because we have good police coverage there. Our friends who live in the vacation home now are also heavily armed. They have a handgun and a hunting rifle and a shotgun. Lifelong liberals like us, they save on their food budget by hunting. My son, a lefty whose mantrai is "Arm the Left" lives in a rough urban area. He is getting a CWP. Responsible trained gun use for specific purposes built this country, starting at Lexington and Concord. We will not make progress on badly needed legislation to get universal background checks, assault weapon restrictions, etc until we acknowledge one thing: there are plenty of great reasons for well trained responsible gun ownership.
This is such a disturbing op-ed.
"Everybody’s afraid. Everybody’s scared. They don’t know what to do.”
How about? VOTE-MARCH-ENGAGE with "the other"-CHANNEL the movements of Ghandi, Mandela and MLK and when all else fails- PRAY instead of arming up.
Reading this column made me feel an impending civil war is nigh and closer than the caravan.
2
@HMP You do realize that Nelson Mandela was involved in armed conflict as a commander of uMkhonto we Sizwe, the armed wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party, don't you? And are you aware that the ANC was on the US terrorist watchlist until 2008? Also, Nelson Mandela went to Algeria to receive military training training from the FLN before returning to SA to lead military campaigns. The only time he wasn't engaged in armed struggle was when he was imprisoned.
All it would take to stop this gun nonsense is for a billionaire or two to distribute assault rifles to minorities across the country. It will scare the bluster out of the NRA thugs and gun control laws will be enacted in a hurry. Whether that will reduce violence is anyone's guess - but, for sure, minorites are more peaceful and will not contribute to violence.
4
The genie is out of the bottle. Firearms, are part of American culture.
As with every NYT editorial demonizing firearms, there is only talk of disarming everybody. Not keeping firearms out of the hands of psychos and criminals.
1
The right has already launched a not very civil war on truth. They machine gun us with bullets fired by hate and «
“alternative facts” every day and night. They are also armed and trained to shoot highly sophisticated guns.
I am no socialist but people had better be prepared for the worst because it is already here!
The 2nd amendment applies to all sides!
But...it is ridiculous to blame conservatives for opposing gun laws and then call them racists when looking at instances when they favored gun control. It kind of seems reasonable to be concerned when a radical group (in this case, the black panthers) fill the California legislative chambers while openly carrying weapons in an intentionally threatening manner. That was the circumstance of Governor Reagan signing the open carry ban. Imagine if some militant right wing group had done that.
And...it does seem reasonable to be concerned about a group calling themselves the Huey P. Newton Gun Club. Mr. Newton was an advocate of violence and was convicted of a vicious stabbing and very soon after his release was convicted of murdering a cop.
Imagine, again, something similar on the right. No glowing profile then, the Times would go nuts!
1
The gun is not the issue. The issue is our ignorance about the world at large. This government has the boogeyman around every corner and some people in the public listen to the most outrageous lies but refuse to listen to the truth.
Two years with the Trump swamp administration has been one orchestrated lie after another, what is so hard about educating oneself and Thinking for a change. Don't let these fools have you arrested going to jail for shooting someone. There is no invasion coming . Grow up and stop listening to a liar.
I would suggest everyone watch the old Twilight Zone program one of the stories was The Monsters are coming to Maple Street"
The ending is what Trump is doing to his base.
VOTE and this nightmare will end
There you go. They were right. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. It's ugly but it's true. This is happening. I don't want to be marched out in front of a ditch by deplorables without the means to defend myself.
1
There is no way I can support citizen arming of myself or others. For one, this plays right into the NRA lobby. And, this moves us towards anarchy and rule by mob.
2
Guns aren't political, they're tools. They also don't work like a rabbit's foot, stick one in your pocket or in the nightstand and it'll bring you luck in an altercation. You make your own luck with proper and consistent training. Not your cup of tea? Don't buy a gun then, because you'll be a greater danger to you and yours than any Trump superfan pipe-bomber. And here's a news flash, most right wing gun owners are Elmer Fudds that never train and rarely practice despite all their bluster.
Chairman Mao was right "Political Power grows out of a barrel of a gun."
1
If you’re ready to say goodbye to democracy and peaceful protests, then get ready to say hello to even more teen suicides, domestic violence homicides, and guns in the hands of children.
1
"left wing" gun owners probably know their targets and will shoot better, if only out of self-defense. However I feel that SRA is an amusing acronym, don't you?
I find some of this hand-wringing amusing. Trump is awful, but who comes next from the Republicans? Someone like Bolsonaro down in Brazil? Thankfully Trump is a clown but his sentiments are not.
It's just common sense to be prepared. Why do all of these "squishy liberals" think that a Bolsonaro can't come to power here? Someone who will go after liberals, small-d democrats, LGBTQ folks, etc. and target them for elimination? Do none of you read a history book?
2
Here in southern NH, there is a nice person who drives a big white truck with the following bumper sticker on it. "Democrats don't want to take your guns. We have plenty of our own." I think that says it all.
6
About 1/3 of Americans already believe that great civil unrest is likely in the next few years, and that this will effectively be a civil war. What a great way to make this a self-fulfilling prophecy.
More guns doesn't help anyone, except the gun industry, the wackos on the right who WANT to live in the Wild West, and America's enemies (e.g., Putin, the Taliban, etc)
Here's an idea: rather than arming themselves, liberals should be doing everything in their power to encourage their likeminded friends, family, and community members to vote. People who do not vote must be shunned.
Great, more guns.
This will turn out well.
/s
4
My wife and I are liberal democrats. We are also gun owners. I don't hunt, but I do enjoy going to the range to practice shooting. Why do I have guns?
When Trump's storm troopers kick in the front door, they are going to have a fight on their hands. Anyone who thinks that scenario is a wing-nut fantasy has not studied history. Never again.
How many readers could identify the Browning Auto-5 directly in the middle of the photo? Or that the lever actions RIFLES at the top (not 'guns') are different? Basically, how many people have any idea about firearms besides that they go BOOM? Some level of expertise is helpful so that, if you want to regulate something, you know what you are voting for and the language being used is correct. If there are regulations against a rifle because it is black and scary and JimBob uses it to eviscerate coffee cans, 1) it won't really do anything 2) you'll sound stupid and 3) nobody in fly-over country will vote for candidates you like. So all those redder-than-red senators and congressmen will still be in office in perpetuity.
1
Extremists on both sides are tearing the country apart and now they want to riddle it with bullets. Shame on them all.
2
What's scarier than a Trumpista with a gun? A liberal with one. This is the beginning of an American tragedy when we polarize to the point of needing a gun, not to guard against criminals, but against other voters.
3
Great piece today, MG. Nothing could drive liberals crazier faster, than using identity "politics" to un-identify a group. Guns, used in self defense, by a group, that is genetically predisposed to hate everything gun, that's Georgia peach good.
Next week, I expect to find out about the small, but growing, numbers of MAGA hat wearing, Trump voters that are working hard to curtail man made global climate change. Their names will be changed, to protect the innocent.
There is no excuse for this kind of “journalism”. You hear that “some people” are forming a group and have a few members (relatively) and you make it sound like a lot of people on the left are now turning to guns?
There will always be “some people” who are outliers, not representative of their group. Just look at all those black people who went to Trump’s recent conference on African Americans. You would never have written an arricle titled “African Americans are turning to Trump” even though that is technically correct.
I am old enough to remember the sixties and seveties well. I was involved in the anti-war movement marches when I was in college. Not once did I meet anyone one on the left who “fetishized” guns and I did know some who were pretty extreme. I am sure there were some, but it was never a “thing”.
There are always “some people” who will say and do things that are not representative of the rest of their group. A few hundred people on the left who have guns joining a group is a drop in the bucket compared to how many on the right belong tomthe NRA, In fact, I would bet that a lot of them were already gun owners. You - and the headline writer - are making a mountain out of a molehill and playing the faux balance game.
2
I’ve had enough RW friends casually mention “guns,” “ammo,” and “civil war,” in the same sentence to understand that I need to buy a gun and learn how to use it, because these people are nuts.
“The Black Panthers and other extremists from the 1960’s...”. Is setting up meals programs for kids extremist? Is wanting to be treated like and afforded the same rights as those of the melanin challenged - like me - extremist? Perhaps Ms. Goldberg should seek out someone who unlike Prof. Winkler doesn’t cling to 50 year old negative tropes. Try finding someone like Harry Edwards who was an adult academic when the Panthers came to the fore and whose being black would more than likely view the Panthers differently, giving readers a more nuanced and less stereotypical slant on that particular subject.
1
FYI
Black Panther movement
Demonized by the country as a hate group
No!
They began as community organizers
Developed after school programs and health clinics and focused their initial platform to empower poor and black inner city residents
A fringe was anti government and terrorists
Black Panthers disrupted the status quo
I would like some commenters to back up the truth.
2
I never had the slightest interest in guns; never wanted one.
Several days after the 2016 election, in a federal building in Washington DC, Richard Spencer held a rally where his crowd of demented Trump-supporting followers screamed Nazi slogans and “Hail Trump” and threw up the straightarm salute. I posted the news story on Facebook and was shocked to see several of my friends whom, to my eternal disappointment and their eternal shame, obviously had voted for Trump, downplaying this as an outlier and no big deal. I’d seen enough, and needed to arm myself while I still had a chance.
I now have several guns and 25 hours of training and a carry card (although that’s just a minimum). Many people might want to consider this option. It’s not for everyone but it’s not as hard as you might imagine to get over an aversion to guns if you educate yourself about them and take some training.
Trump’s mob is violent, racist and deranged, and will believe whatever he tells them and will do whatever he tells them to do. It’s not hard to imagine him giving the order, or even just suggesting—which directly led to the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre—and them coming for their fellow citizens. If they come for me and my family, I can at least assure it won’t go well for them.
I have a certain strain of guerrilla theater that urges a part of me to get some old hippies together, arm up real caracaturish and go visit the NRA offices. Just sit there making them nervous. It turns out, however, that the NRA doesn't allow firearms into their offices. Must be the only place in the Nation they want to see that restriction. Maybe they know how dangerous those things are.
I own a couple of firearms (there are real bears around my mountain cabin) and I still believe in sensible gun regulations.
I also know that if the government goes rogue on US my guns are not going to stop them. Nor are the ARs that are being hoarded by the righties. The government has attack helicopters and canons and such. So I am not armed against my government as many of the righties seem to be.
Arming against the righties, though, might be a good idea.
1
This is hardly a new phenomenon. The Black Panthers urged African Americans to keep and bear arms because of the Klan threat.
1
I've been saying for years that moderates and liberals need to learn how to use, and stockpile, firearms. Otherwise, we'd be at the mercy of the most violent and regressive elements of society, if and when "push comes to shove".
Unlike the hyper-macho right wing gun nuts, who flaunt their weapons both to intimidate political opponents and in a desperate and obvious attempt to overcome their insecurity of their own manhood, I always thought the rest of us should quietly and humbly arm ourselves. After all, the point is to make sure we're ready to oppose a fascist revolt...
But this article has shifted my thinking. Maybe if the left was as openly and heavily armed as the right, there would finally be a bipartisan push for real gun control.
Also, it's my opinion that liberals should join the NRA in droves. As members we could vote to change leadership and even change the mission statement from gun rights to gun safety.
“I generally find the idea of adding more guns to our febrile politics frightening and dangerous. But sometimes a small desperate part of me thinks that if our country is going to be awash in firearms, maybe it behooves the left to learn how to use them. If nothing else, an armed left might once again create a bipartisan impetus for gun control.”
Yep. I grew up on a farm, hunted as a kid, and have never not owned a firearm. But I never have bought into the phallic narcissism of the gun myth or the helpless desperation of gun culture. Guns are tools, not unlike my computer or my electric drill. In the hands of most gun lovers they are a near occasion of great harm. Mostly they permit people to cap a few others, usually people like themselves, prior to their own demise. But now I find myself questioning all that. We may be entering a different, dystopian time. I hope this is not so.
how about threats of violence, and actual violence from the left? Shall we ignore that? both sides have wackos and both sides have folks that fan the flames of polarization and fear.
2
Two words. Slippery slope.
2
This has always been my problem with the NRA and republican courting of the single-issue gun voter...
They say democrats are coming for their guns...
But my entire family votes democrat... and we all have guns. No one is coming for your guns! Just be a responsible gun owner and you have absolutely nothing to worry about...
Stop letting fear influence your vote... use your head instead.
1
This tone deaf discovery of a part of the gun culture that has always been there is what we must endure when “squishy liberals” are forced to confront their inner self defense mechanism. The radical left no more fetishized guns in the 1960’s than they do today. Rather, what they do is take the classic American stance on guns. Huey Newton knew that guns in America have a mythological power that he could use to start a political movement. The sight of young disciplined black men who were fearless and armed resonated with the cowboy culture that ruled America and it knew that the line that it could not cross was now visible. What today’s left is doing today comes from the same motivation, they can demonstrate the myth of guns as well as the right and they can quietly show that an armed left is not something that a fascist crowd should get near. As much as liberals think this is a coming civil war it is not. In fact it is the thing that may preclude such a war. When one considers that about half of all guns are owned by liberals and independents the specter of a socialist gunfighter nation is not far away. In a country that still reveres a past generation that fought the Nazis to a standstill, the left has a strong role model for how to use a gun against the far right. Just as in the 1960’s we see that the message of the far left is self defense and not fear and intimidation. It is a message of love and commitment and protection that today’s liberals still don’t get.
1
An acquaintance of mine -- a Ph.D. in physics from an Ivy and far-right leaning -- says we'd all be safer if everyone aboard airplanes -- yes AIRPLANES -- carried guns. Not just air marshals. Everyone. Concealed, of course, so that "bad guys" wouldn't know who to take out first. But, I asked, what about a misfired bullet through the fuselage? He replied: we just have to make fuselages stronger. Are we all going mad? Or just a few right-wing nuts?
@lhc - he's not a good physicist.
Transport airplanes can tolerate a few holes in the fuselage -- that happens fairly commonly for other reasons, it's a design criterion.
But the idea of a lot of armed people is stupid, because most people will just kill innocents.
A simple fact you appear not to know, ditto your physicist friend: the pilots can depressurize the airplane, and not allow the oxygen masks to be triggered. At cruise altitude everybody without an oxygen mask goes unconscious in about 30 seconds.
The stupidity of 9/11 was that American airplanes didn't have armored cockpit doors. Now they do. It's never going to happen again, at least not that way.
1
This is great !!! I'm a gun person, vote the NRA line, and have spent major portions of my life in rifle competition: WE NEED DEMOCRATS AND LIBERALS TO JOIN US !!! It's good that we have the support of one of the major parties, but there is no reason gun rights has to be a Republican issue. We need Democrat and liberal support too-- So the welcome mat is out to all you NYT readers --- please join with us, and it will be welcome aboard !!!!
Low profile, off the radar groups, both right and left wing, engage in occasional domestic terrorism.
But well organized, publicly visible, and informally sanctioned (by Democratic party leadership) violent action by large groups is - exclusively - the realm of the left.
The Black Panthers, the Weather Undergound, FALN, New World Liberation Front, Symbionese Liberation Army, ANTIFA, Black Liberation Army, and many others, are not a new topic in the US.
That they are rearing their heads again under a different moniker is no surprise.
When the radical lefties can't get what they want through the ballot box, they always resort to violence, like the spoiled brats that they are.
1
@Objectivist -- show me that the Black Panthers, the Weather Undergound, FALN, New World Liberation Front, Symbionese Liberation Army, ANTIFA, Black Liberation Army are sanctioned by the Democratic leadership.
1
Good. I don't really shoot much any more, but I'm sure not going to sell my guns while right-wing terrorists assert themselves. We're not all just going to lay down and let them kill us.
For the Left to arm itself is a response, but not an answer, to right-wing insanity.
What truly depresses me are the bubble-encased liberals here tut-tutting left-leaning gun owners and preaching civility when nazis not only parade in the streets, but write policy for the president. Sebastian Gorka, Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, Kris Kobach: are the authors of racist, inflammatory, hateful legislation and rhetoric, fueled by secretive billionaires' groups, likely to be swayed by notions of fair play when they tacitly and explicitly condone violent action by their supporters, sew divisions among us, and institutionalize hate?
This. This is the liberal bubble, divorced from reality, that got Trump elected. Totalitarianism doesn't start with a revolution; it starts when a nation collectively gives into fear and complacency, preferring to "go along to get along" rather than stand up for what is right.
As a moderate but left leaning Democrat living in a densely populated suburb adjacent to Boston, it never would have crossed my mind to purchase a firearm. When we started seeing swastikas painted at the local high school just after the orange menace was elected, I went through the appropriately lengthy process of getting a gun permit here and bought a gun. It stays locked up, but in this environment, I'm glad it's here. Never would have imagined this just a few years ago.
The biggest Democrat that I know carries a gun and has for years.
1
@Ryan Paul Gunyan?
1
You needn't arm yourself, you needn't put signs in your yard, nor bumper stickers on your car. You needn't do anything to draw attention to the fact that you know what's going on is WRONG other than . . . vote.
1
There's a fundamental misunderstanding about liberals. It was liberals who went to Europe and killed tens of thousands of Nazis because they decided that was the right and necessary thing to do. We killed a whole lot of Japanese fascists too, at the same time. There were millions of liberal men who literally lined up for the chance to kill a nazi or a fascist.
I'm a former Army Reservist and a complete gun nut. I love guns, but I'm Australian, and I understand that is fundamentally psychotic to want to own a semi-automatic firearm because their primary purpose for existence is to kill a lot of people in a short time. That's why they are made. That's their purpose. If you want to own one, that's your purpose too.
The solution to all of this is simple - as per the Second Amendment, in a literal reading - require everyone who wants to own a gun to do, say, three years in the National Guard or other military branch. Then require that they remain on the Reserve List for as long as they want to own a gun until retirement. It's just a basic and obvious measure to comply with the literal meaning of the Amendment.
To my gun-loving brethren I say this - a revolver is fun and will do the job of self-protection, a shotgun is better for home protection than an AR-15, a bolt action rifle is a whole lot of firepower for personal security, but that's okay. Over time the semi-autos will go out of circulation except for the criminals - criminal because they own them, if for no other reason.
2
Politics and guns don't mix.
Period
1
More guns is not the solution. Its the problem.
131
@och will
Only sheep willingly being led down the corridors of the abattoir think that way in 2018 America.
I refuse to go out out like European Jews in the 1940's.
9
@och will
'More guns is not the solution. Its the problem'
Until the day when the bullets start flying, then you will pray to find one gun
3
@och will . No, more people is the problem.
2
The Second Amendment frames the right of gun ownership in the context of a well-regulated milita, wherease the radical right and NRA are dead set against regulation. Since personal firearm ownership is not going to disappear from American culture, I wecome the advent of progressive militias. Who knows, perhaps the appearance of well-trained and well-armed members of the LGTBQ Militia, or La Raza Militia, or the Soccer Moms Militia, would reduce the enthusiasm of the Profa element to try and intimidate lawful protesters. Imagine how quickly sensible gun control would be encated if lawfully armed members of the Black Lives Matter Militia began regular patrols in suburban neighborhoods.
Only when enough NON-right wing folks have firearms will there be a serious discussion and passage of a gun control bill.
Yes, just like Reagan
1
More arme and angry and frightened people distrusting the police, state rangers, FBI, and military's ability to keep domestic tranquility. Every fool for himself means more accidental shootings, stand-offs with armed opponents, psychotics choosing "the enemy", and wilder dating.
The South, where guns were very popular, did mighty well for several years in the 19th century. In the end they lost more dead and the war. Every week, I get inquiries about visiting and moving to Canada from friends and relatives. My city of 1,000,000 averages 2 gun-deaths a month. We do not fear life in thiw society - not from our political opponents, our army, our RCMP, the girl next door. No one worries about gun battles in church, mosque, or synagogue. It is an awful path a nation travels when its citizens arm against... its citizens and military. Canada has not gone there. Why is the U.S .going there with so little resistance?
1
When I was a kid it was the left, with their fear of J Edgar Hoover and recent memories of McCarthyism, that opposed gun control.
There is NO left wing gun culture anything like the right wing gun culture.
The left is NOT inspired by the right in gun culture or any other "culture".
This is just more false equivalency.
I found this editorial almost irresponsible, considering the real lives being lost by right wing terrorism.
This talking point is not a reflection of our american reality.
1
A new prism to observe the times they are a'changing....and as Goldberg says in her article, the idea of all arming and being loaded and ready is slightly frightening, or a lot in my estimation, but to know this is to realize the times. It's still something that is rural in the main, is it not, than urban?
"Threats from the right inspire a new left-wing gun culture." This is nonsense. Don't deceive your readers. Right-wing extremists have had weapons for ages. The left does not need them to be inspired for weapons. Their inspiration comes from the left--from the likes of Lenin or Che Guevara. The left knows them very well; in fact, much better than anyone on the right.
1
Or as my librarian gun-owning friend said “Why should they have all the guns?”
Great! More guns! This’ll end really well. NOT.
3
"Sooner or later, everybody's going to need a regulator." Can't remember who wrote that song.
Uh, no.
My gun owning friends aren't afraid, nor do they wish any sort of civil war, uprising, or disruption. They just want to continue to take care of their families, work their jobs, and be good citizens. They understand full well what any sort of violent response to political situations will do to our way of life. They want nothing to do with offensive violence.
They look at owning a gun like they do owning a fire extinguisher or any other piece of safety equipment.
93
@Emmett Then you have some smart friends.
There are those that treat guns as toys and accessories, not the tools they were meant to be. That's the heart of the problem. Guns haven't changed as much as the reason many people get them has.
11
@Emmett Then they should have no problem with sensible gun control: universal background checks and banning of bump stocks, high capacity mags and military grade weapons like the AR-15. A responsible gun owner who hunts or feels s/he needs a gun for protection should want these protections to keep ALL of us safe.
6
@Christie Sorry, but when did the AR-15 become military grade? Just because it looks like a military firearm doesn't mean it functions like one.
11
"In the late 1960s and early 1970s, parts of the radical left fetishized firearms."
That's one way to look at it. On the other hand, they may have simply wanted to let people know that the people can push back if confronted by those who thought they had a certain advantage over others because of being armed. It was also a response to, not just theoretical violence, but attacks on Freedom Riders, peaceful marchers, and others simply asserting their rights.
Blaming them for gun control is a bit of victim-blaming that falls into the narrative of the right we still see. A few people sending the message they are armed for self-defense in the US is hardly cause for the reaction that followed. But it's good to let everyone know that if guns get grabbed, it's the forces of reaction, not the people, who are behind it.
While it might just be noticed, out here in the sticks left gun ownership is far more prevalent than it may seem from NYC. We're just quiet about it, which is often the case with self-defense. We're not out fomenting another civil war or joining the NRA yahoos.
Like most left gun owners, I don't hunt, I am discrete about my guns, and I generally don't casually discuss them with others. They're ready if needed, but also secured. If you want to know what responsible gun ownership is, look this way. It's only noticed now because we are a nation held at the point of a gun culture that is a threat to what Americans believe. I choose the freedom to be able to resist evil.
4
"Let's fight fire-arms with fire-arms" is just what the N.R.A. would love--another recipe for more gun violence. Let's hope voters remember Pittsburgh and Parkland next Tuesday and vote out the Republicans who've continually blocked sensible gun regulation like universal background checks, a ban on assault weapons like the Ar-15 used in both the Pittsburgh and Parkland massacres, limits on the size ammunition clips, and mandatory safety devices limiting use in case weapons are stolen. Voters overwhelmingly support these commonsense regulations. It's time to honor those who died in Parkland and Pittsburgh by voting #NeverAgain this Tuesday.
1
I've never been a gun guy, not yet, but pretty soon here I'll be picking up a few. I mean, once the action becomes firearms and generalized mayhem, who wants to miss out on that? Unfortunately I tend to get impulsive, given enough fear and panic, and sure enough, I'll probably be one of those shoot-first types who ends up blasting someone I would have rather gone drinking with. Darn. Does anyone have any tips for me regarding which set of guns is most likely to make me great again?
2
Rational governments know that arms races are dangerous. More than a few years ago I too was alarmed enough at the rhetoric and the appearance at gun stores of, essentially, combat weapons to think of defensively arming the left - in an organized way. That's how an arms race starts. There are plenty of examples of how badly they end.
Great article, some thoughts from another left-leaning moderate responsible gun owner...
- Firearms are excellent tools, but I do think that having them readily available adds much more risk to your household - hide and lock em up!
- For better or worse, significant gun control is a lost cause. The horse is out of the barn with nearly 400M in circulation in US. Focus on background checks
- Will never join the NRA
- Grates on me that my gun/ammo purchases fund the NRA
- So here's an idea - some private equity firm buys a gun company (Ruger has <$1B market cap) and pivots it to cater to the moderate chunk of the market - no NRA contributions, no "extreme" guns. Probably too political but could be a great business and actually help moderate big national debate
- The Liberal Gun Club (website) is a great forum and resource for any folks wanting to learn more and dip their toe in
2
I am a progressive and come next Wednesday, I may be heading to a gun store. Not because I want to participate in a socialist revolution or head out to a GOP softball practice.
The reason: While I am anti-violence and have believed in ballots over bullets all my life, I am also elderly and vulnerable and now, afraid of becoming a victim of violence perpetrated upon me by right-wing radicals.
I have long had a license plate frames on my car that identified me as an alumni of a notoriously liberal university and Ivy League law school.
In recent years, members of the MAGA, cigarette-smoking, gray goatee, giant pickup truck crowd have began to tailgate me and my wife, flip us off, scream insults and cut us off in traffic. I do not hate these people enough to shoot them, I don't respond to them, but I love my wife enough to defend her and myself if things go really bad.
My father was a factory worker and an outdoorsman who hunted for food. He taught us how to shoot, clean and respect guns. I hope I never have to draw a bead on a human being and never before even considered it possible.
Enter Trump and his embolden cult of sociopaths.
The horses are out of the barn vis a vis gun control. People who want to kill me for being liberal are armed and coming out of their holes.
I thoroughly understand the people in Goldberg's piece today.
7
I vote for Democrats, so that makes me a "liberal". I support common sense gun control. I also own a couple of firearms.
Just like Ms. Goldberg, I have reservations about the "armed left" groups like the one(s) she describes. Don't get me wrong, I'm scared to death, just like them, and I'm not at all optimistic about where we are heading as a nation. But let's be realistic, it is silly for anyone on the left to count on guns as a practical counter measure to the potential right-wing violence. Even here, in the bluest of the blue states, if God forbid it ever comes to fratricidal bloodshed, the crazy right wingers will be guaranteed to outgun the liberals and to have more experienced veterans of the armed forces and law enforcement, etc., on their side. Our best bet, as a nation, is not to ever let it come to a civil war ever again.
But then again, even in this bluest state I don't necessarily expect the law enforcement or the National Guard to be able - or willing - to protect the liberals in the event of such a bloodshed either... So I do understand some liberals' desire to start stockpiling rifles and ammo.
I don't think forming "liberal militias", whether to take part in the upcoming civil war, or to prevent one, is a good idea. It's not going to solve anything, and it can actually make things worse and trigger a confrontation. But I still recommend to consider buying a firearm. Just to know how guns work. And to be able to talk about guns to the people on the right.
This is worrisome! As the fuses get shorter, all should be distancing themselves from the weapons and explosives rather than embracing them. I fully understand their need to protect themselves but going beyond that may make the situation more explosive, both metaphorically and in real terms. I hope all will remain sane and safe.
funny this is being published right now. i had a spirited debate the other day with a friend, whos very moderately right wing and a gun owner. he was going on about how the left hates guns and wants to control them (and how doing so would be a failure).
i explained to him im so far left, that i make three lefts and end up back right. i fully support gun rights, and i see gun control as completely foolish. in a country with 330 million people and 200+ million guns, how are you going to "control" guns? maybe 10% of people would be willing to give up their guns (after all, they arent cheap). how do you go about the other 90%? how is banning certain guns or accessories going to change anything?
the best way to go about gun "control" is background checks (to prevent people who've already shown a proclivity to violence from being able to purchase), waiting periods (to prevent suicides and crimes of passion), laws requiring gun safes (to prevent accidents where a child gets an adults gun and shoots themselves/others), and laws requiring gun owners to show that they are capable of safely using a gun (we have drivers licenses and no one bats an eye at taking a road test!). most gun owners support these measures as theyre common sense. but sadly some of the loudest voices on the left want to ban guns, period.
one has a better chance of winning the lotto. and in these trying times... as a minority... i would rather be armed than have the alt right be the only ones armed.
2
I strongly support gun control, but having studied the Black Panthers, and also having been death threatened by a right-wing militia member here in California, I understand the impulse. My friend, a Transwoman, supports the Second Amendment to protect herself, and she is a very peaceful person.
Generally I believe in peace, but Trump has destroyed any semblance of it in our culture. We should always seek peace first, but we should also prepare to protect the Constitution from fascism, and the rights and lives of the vulnerable from genocide, murder and torture.
2
good luck trying to protect yourself
in nyc.the fees for an application
alone are staggering. the costs
of a gun purchase, the training
and all the other accoutrements
needed,not even taking into account
the so called background checks
which are deliberately used to
nitpick any thing,even misdemeanours,
to the point of discouraging anyone
from even attempting to apply and
does anyone wonder why people,
store owners and such keep
illegal guns?I have no weapon but
when I walk in my neighborhood,
especially on summer evenings,
there are times I wish I did.
good for those leftists gun owners,
they live in the right cities and states,
and take full advantage of that.
2
Democrats would win a lot more elections in this country if they spoke specifically about the limits of the gun control they are seeking and supported the border wall coupled with a path to citizenship. The Republicans control the narratives in the minds of the people both guns and immigration. Those two issues alone drive their poll numbers from what I can tell... Leftists with guns is well and good... we need far, far fewer "squishy liberals"
Right wingers buying guns is a serious problem. Left wingers buying guns is a sign of the end times!
I always thought that being a liberal meant supporting tight gun control. The country is in a very dangerous condition when even those who support reasonable gun regulations begin to buy guns themselves. With all the hate speech being used in the midterm elections, especially from the White House, it is easy to see why certain groups want to arm themselves. That doesn't make it smart.
I believe that the more guns we have, the greater the chance that a gun is used accidentally. And if that happens at the wrong time and the wrong place, God help us all.
1
Every interaction the internet is artificial. These people are violent inside their psyche, and , alone, they interact and expand their violent tendencies- alone in their homes. These people have blunted personalities, and find common ground eventually, in gun shows, in firing ranges, and bond there. A safety net that has health care, mental health care, good interactive schools, livable wages, CUTS DOWN THE INCIDENCE, the percentage, of these people becoming a violent people, instead of a grumpy curmudgeon. If 2.2 million active military exist, then how many more of these, not in the military or no longer in the military? What's the count in the US, failed by the institutions they signed up for, and wife beaters, an sick relation at home.
I have said for some time now that the left should start arming itself like the right has been doing for many decades. Strict gun control is something that should have occurred 40 years ago like in other developed countries, but because of LaPierre and Anton Scalia and many others, we hardly have any gun control, and the Second Amend has been warped beyond recognition. We are awash in guns and crazies, so now the argument centers on how many of us should be armed all the time everywhere, everyday to shoot the shooter who wants to shoot us at that moment. Its quite a shame that we have arrived at this moment in history. Seems to me, civil strife is in our future. Unnecessary self destruction of a once beautiful idea which was our secure way of life.
Liberal gun owner. Got my first gun at 16. The Right shouldn't have a monopoly on RESPONSIBLE gun ownership or patriotism.
1
I knew this would be just a matter of time.
Oso, meet Ed Abbey and Mike Malloy.
It appears our country is becoming a caricature of the western movies indoctrinated in our national psyche. We'll be clinking our way down wooden sidewalks, six-shooter at the ready. The problem is, most folks don't shoot that well. Expect carnage as panicked citizens misread situations, pull out weapons and start blazing away. At least it will be an argument for universal health care as you won't know what day you'll be shot...just that there is a high likelihood it will occur.
If the Republican minority continues to undermine the majority's non-violent access to power, people will absolutely begin to use violence to achieve their aims. This is practically guaranteed. I guess we can thank the NRA for making assault weapons so easy to acquire.
1
The author should probably interview a couple of NRA members at some point some she can realize that the majority of them are "surprisingly unthreatening" and "civic minded" folks as well.
Most NRA members are recreational hunters who are concerned about the push by liberals to ban or restrict gun ownership. As is often the case in membership organizations, the staff and leaders are more didactic and extreme than the members. Sort of like the Republican and Democratic parties.
1
It must be disturbing to members of the cultural elite to see some of their less affluent clients adopting unsound attitudes. But it is only an illustration of the fact that unblemished orthodoxy is a luxury that can only be enjoyed by those whose material needs are already amply provided for.
The alliance between tech, professional, and celebrity elites on the one hand and those who are lower on the economic and social ladder has always been an uneasy one. It breaks down when the more pressing needs of the latter conflict with the beliefs of the former. This is why the Republicans have succeeded in selling a message of support to working people. If the elites persist in demanding ideological purity on matters such as guns rather than dealing with real bread-and-butter issues, they may find themselves continuing to stand on the sidelines, lobbing insults at their intellectual inferiors.
I was 12 in 1968. My father, brother and I would drive over the Golden Gate Bridge to go skeet shooting on Wolfback Ridge. I heard automatic rifle fire for the first time in my life there: Black Panthers out for some target practice. I wasn't the least bit threatened.
No longer. I heard automatic rifle fire after Sandyhook and called the local cops, who suggested I was imagining things till they heard it. I find it incredibly anti-social for my neighbors to blaze away for hours in the woods.
More guns means more gun deaths. If it comes to violent conflict in our country, we are doomed. I don't own guns anymore, and don't want to. Period.
2
Truthfully, this gun culture doesn't look like liberals deciding they need firearms, they look like the working class that abandoned the Democrats in 2016. On the spectrum, that means that these people aren't the cosmopolitan liberals, they're likely the "hardhats" who lean conservatively social, but economically liberal, so of course they would be embracing guns, they have needed them in the past...
3
Shooting targets in a group of like-minded folks does not make a soldier. Packing heat in a grocery store doesn't either. What is made is a failed society.
1
Right after the election I actually wondered if I should purchase a gun and learn how to use it. I was in a pretty bad place, feeling fearful about the direction of the country, perhaps a sense of looming nihilism and sense of vulnerability. I'm not sure. I knew Trump would not have this country's back, and with all the hateful inflammatory rhetoric, I might need to protect myself. I'm a middle aged white female, so if I feel this way, I can only imagine how people who would fit in the "other" category must feel. It's a scary time. In some ways I feel my fears have been validated as I see the rise of white supremacy with their acts of violence and threatened acts of violence.
1
There may actually be light at the end of this tunnel. If Trump's attempt to amend the Constitution to eliminate birthright citizenship is upheld by his Supreme Court, a precedent will have been set. Then, when a Democratic president it elected in 2020 or 2024, the door will be open to repeal the Second Amendment altogether.
Many on the right feel that Democrats are afraid of guns, and would never own one. That idea is far from the truth. I am a Democrat and a comat veteran and I can tell you that a lot of people I served with lean a bit more left than is believed.
The difference between us and fanatical gun owners is that we know the purpose of a gun is to kill. It is not to try and scare or intimidate someone else, or be used as part of a costume when playing Army.
It’s a whole new ball game when the targets shoot first before you can even see them, and they shoot back.
1
Much of the right see guns as some sort of divine providence. They can be as vociferous about this perceived martial advantage as they are about their self-professed religious-political manifest destiny.
But the personas of the conservative gun-toting cowboy vs. the bookish milksop liberal is a caricature, a cartoon played over and over in their heads. Plenty of progressive folks own guns. But more than that these tools are easy too access and easy to master.
The right needs to disabuse themselves of the notion that an armed civil conflict would be a quick, clean, one sided affair. If our democracy once again descends into some sort of armed civil conflict both sides with suffer. Both sides will bleed. That’s just the way these things go.
Not sure when American politicians, mainly the Right wing ones, would come to senses and realize that promoting gun culture would ultimately make this country ungovernable. 2nd amendment does not have any place in a 21st century civilized society and in a functional democracy.
NRA and gun manufacturers' lobby might love this gun frenzy, unless few of their own taste the medicine they are distributing to others.
I'm pretty sure that it would not take even a moment for NRA to shift its patronage if they find left wing gun culture is more profitable for them, leaving the Republican leaders in deep electoral trouble. NRA is already feeling the pinch in terms of decreasing gun sales after Trump became President. It wants the gun violence and gun debate to remain alive and kicking, and would not hesitate to use those mostly poor and uneducated American people as cannon fodder to satisfy its greed.
1
After reading this article, some of the comments and long exhaled breath, all I can say is "Americans, who are we?" I despair.
1
It is only prudent to arm yourself when confronted by the armed. A thinking person would think twice when they see the other side is equally armed. It's called deterrent. The US practiced the same thing with nuclear weapons when confronted by the former Soviet Union. Does anyone think the US should have unilaterally disarmed itself of its nuclear arsenal? I don't think so.
The same thing applies here. I will arm myself in the face of growing fascism and disarm myself when that threat is gone. But eternal vigilance is the price we pay for our freedom. Freedom and Democracy is NOT cheap. It is paid for with the blood of true patriots. The far right mob/militia are NOT true patriots. They are fascists that must be confronted at every turn. They must not be allowed to grow and wreck havoc upon US. We have to fight for our freedom and democracy. For it is only in the fight that we begin to appreciate the freedoms that we have.
Full disclosure: I am an immigrant from the Philippines and I am a veteran of the US Army and US Navy. I have lived in this country for over 45 years. I am a naturalized US citizen.
1
We live in a very rural area and we have an infestation of wild pigs. We don’t need assault rifles or automatic weapons to deal with them, but we do need a rifle more powerful than a .22.
I am in favor of strict background checks, better than we have now, for ALL gun buys. All guns sales should be through a licensed gun dealer. I am in favor of stop and frisk in cities. To get a concealed carry permit, you should have to pass a mental health exam.
Buying a gun or rifle is one thing; knowing how to use it properly or effectively is quite another. Unfortunately, too many on the left have never served in the US military. Could be a problem down the road if this seemingly uncontrolled anger and rhetoric keeps up.
1
It’s become, he said, “all about arming up to fight the tyranny that’s coming.”
That’s why, as a gay married man, and a moderately progressive Democrat in the bluest part of Massachusetts, I am armed and have a License to Carry. I won’t ever advocate violence, but at the same time, I’m not going to stand idly by as the current administration and its supporters steal elections and pack the courts with far-right conservatives who are preparing to take away my rights - and if they should ever come to haul me and my husband into a death camp, I will be prepared to defend myself.
America has 4% of the world population and 40% of the world’s privately owned guns. No matter whether gun owners are conservative or progressive, this is pure madness. The 2nd Amendment, as it as been interpreted by the courts, ihas become a curse. No other developed nation has anything even remotely resembling the 2nd Amendment as it has been interpreted by the courts.
I have no idea what the answer to this problem is because any type of so-called “gun control” will essentially be meaningless as long as the 2nd Amendment is in effect and there are still more guns in America than there are people.
While it may be true that those on the right are more obsessed about guns, they aren't the only ones armed. My husband and I have been gun owners for over 30 years. We are out here. Maybe gun-owning Dems just don't go around beating their chest, bragging about their guns.
1
I don't understand the surprise at leftists embracing violence in this country. They have done so, by guns or by bombs, for well over a century. Remember the Weathermen, that band of bored middle-class kids who believed that societal change was best accomplished by shooting people or blowing them up?
Arming ourselves isn't the answer. And gun control, though helpful, is not a complete solution -- there are many other effective ways for extremists to kill people. Toning down the shouting, the hectoring, the vilifying, and the finger-pointing, on both sides, is the only way to bring peace to this country. It will be difficult, but it's not too late for all of us to come to our senses and treat each other as human beings rather than symbols.
1
The left has a caricatured image of the typical gun owner. To acquire weapons to defend against that caricature is as crazy as getting a military assault weapon for home defence.
Everyone must understand if a shot is fired in political anger everything we have could be lost.
1
The biggest threat facing our nation are far right extremists and their primary enabler, the NRA. So, it makes sense that we arm ourselves in the event that Trump incites these people to further violence. With all due respect to Ms. Obama, we sometimes must fight fire with fire as a last resort.
Part of the problem we all face is that there are so many guns in circulation already that it would be all but impossible to eliminate the 2nd amendment as many gun control advocates would like to see. But sensible restrictions such as gun registration and safety training make sense in light of the psychotic rhetoric and policies advocated by the NRA. The far right lives in an alternate universe that is dangerous and too often dismissed under the guise of free speech. Indeed, NRA supporters constitute a threat more real than the immigrants and others they demonize with racist rhetoric.
This is great news. Self defense is not a partisan issue. You think it is because so many liberals hate guns, are afraid of guns, think guns kill by themselves, and hate people who carry guns. That is just a fact. Threats against one's life cause a lot of people to want to carry a weapon for self defense. Can't we keep politics out of anything anymore? The people I know that carry are decent people. There are other things to think about than politics.
1
No matter what may seem to justify leftist--or rightist--gun culture, on the large national scene this is pure madness. The only rational solution to a nation saturated in lethal weapons is to begin to curtail the ownership and possession of such weapons. I totally agree with Nick Kristoff--or was it somebody else?--who said that the Canadians have controlled weapons without once taking away a hunting rifle whose owner is known to be a law-abiding citizen. Even so, it is insanity to permit the widespread ownership of Glocks and AR-15s and any other semi-automatic weapon. People who arm themselves in private groups are preparing for what they profess to fear: warfare, violent authoritarian politics, you name it. Again, this is crazy.
Why do you call yourself a "squishy liberal," as if liberalism was something to apologize for?
Liberalism is the foundation upon which our Constittion and system of government was built. There is nothing "squishy" about it.
Those two words jumped out of this column, because they are so representative of the way the Republican Party, and the far right that has overrun conservatism in this country, has succeeded in demonizing liberalism and bullying and ridiculing liberals into marginalizing their own ideals.
That marginalization, that reflex that too many liberals seem to have, indicating that they have bought into the characterization of our beliefs as soft and weak, is almost as responsible for the near triumph of right wing extremism in this country as is the radical right movement itself.
If liberals don't believe in the power of their own beliefs, then surely, no one else will.
I, a strong liberal, also find the prospect of adding more guns to our politics frightening and dangerous. Yes, guns are tools - tools designed to kill.
Courage isn't the absence of fear, it's not letting fear rob you of your humanity or your reason. Taking up arms out of fear *is* dangerous and foolish. It's just one more victory for the gun pushers and the conflict-mongers on the right. And a defeat for us liberals on the left, who strive for a country free of fear and violence, for a country that celebrates democracy, diversity, community, equal rights, dignity for all, and peace.
Im all for it. And if I didnt live in progressive Manhattan Id do the same. An eye for an eye. Its time.
1
I suppose that it's a "fight fire with fire" remedy that had to emerge, but it appears to be a terribly slippery slope we're headed down with this individual arms race. Perhaps I over react, since about everyone in the old west carried a gun, and that seemed to work out ok. Maybe the sheer insanity of this sort of behavior will help bring about a much-needed paradigm shift in human thought. In the near future, we will program the human mind in the computer, and this will be based on a "survival" algorithm. This program will provide irrefutable proof of how we have tricked the mind with our ridiculous beliefs about what is supposed to survive - producing minds programmed de facto for destruction. When we understand this, we will begin the long trek back to reason and sanity.
See RevolutionOfReason.com
1
If you're buying guns for self defense, the type and number of guns you buy depends on whether you are preparing for a skirmish or a war.
A skirmish is a single event. If you think that the neighborhood crazies might attack you, you need creditable defense. A semi-automatic carbine or an AR-15 would do the job, but you might want a 9 mm pistol to carry around when you are not at home. If someone had one at the synagogue, it might have turned out differently. That's it, two guns will do the job.
If you think it could turn into a war, you might need more guns and you'll certainly need more ammo. Forget the carbine and get an AR-15, and a lot more ammo. Perhaps you'd want to do some sniping, so a good .308 with a telescopic scope would be useful. Don't forget to fortify your house; you'll need a good firing position and clear fields of fire if you're going to survive.
Really? Do we actually think we are going to make war on each other? We'd better dial back the rhetoric before it becomes reality.
I have never agreed in any way with the author until today. There is a high price for the freedom the second amendment affords amaricans, mostly in suicides and inner city violence, but it's worth it. There is a limit to what the government can do by force. If some day our (left and right) paranoid fantasies come true. If you doubt what people with the will to resist and rifles can do the tribesman of Afghanistan could teach you a lesson. In my living memory they've defeted two superpowers with little else.
For disclosure, I am one of those who (1) look forward to the yet to come 34th or 35th Amendment with the words EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS inserted in the text of the 2nd, and (2) I distrust the mercenary gunslingers of the municipal police in being able to protect me et al.
But Socialist Rifle Association is dangerous and it smells of all the French revolutionaries since the year 1789. I can understand the man interviewed by Ms. Goldberg saying “I wear a pistol every day because I’m a Jewish person in the South" and I advocate the Christian and Judaic parishioners being armed and ready for self-defense in their houses of worship. But I am against the association of any political group with the right of carrying and using firearms.
The SRA is probably scrutinized by the FIB more closely than any of the Trump's henchmen who are ready to shoot at illegal migrants.
This is a great piece that needed to be written. As an anti-gun liberal myself, I have found myself internally conflicted about my position on guns, and the very real concern I have about impending violent civil unrest.
I live in Colorado - a purple state. There are as many hybrids on the road as there are giant trucks designed to mask feelings of latent homosexuality and severe inadequacy issues. Colorado ranks highly (potentially 1 or 2) for road rage fatalities. And it's not hard to imagine that road rage incidents are primarily carried out by raging right wingers.
More and more I worry about what an actual civil war would look like and how it would play out in suburbs that have a fairly equal distribution of "sides". We've all seen cell phone videos of public displays of violence and racism. And we've seen principled bystanders righteously protecting victims from the vitriolic rage-filled kooks who can't even keep themselves in check in public. I imagine myself being one of those defenders. But the immediate thought I have is that "Anyone who feels compelled to scream at a stranger for speaking Spanish, is clearly a right wing crazy who could be waiting for me in the parking lot. So I'd better just keep my mouth shut".
This is America. As I've said in other comments, it will not ebb once/if tRump is gone. It will worsen. It is very easy to imagine djt leaving office and fomenting what he started while squatting in office.
Sociologists see this phenomenon as the 'masuline' asserting itself during these times. An optic of this parallel thing happening is all these pickup trucks on the road/being purchased.
Mother nature has plenty to do with this. Hurricanes, wildfires, sever weather, and Trump acting as if we're at the Alamo and the Mexicans are coming over the walls.
1
Some people forget that a lot of us “liberals”, (actually progressives), did a few combat tours in Vietnam.
After years of mindless killing we realized that assault rifles and other such weapons have no place in society and went back to sporting guns and support reasonable guns control laws.
But make no mistake about my young right wing gun loving friends, we are more than capable of defending ourselves.
4
The Townsville Massacre is an important but little known part of this history.
A US Army engineer battalion was deployed to
Australia to build an airport. The officers were
white southerners, the soldiers were black.
The officers treated the soldiers very badly.
One Saturday afternoon, the officers were having a party. The soldiers were confined to barracks.
The soldiers started to shoot the officers.
Lyndon Johnson was sent to investigate. It was very
hush hush.
Did this incident impact Lyndon Johnson, and was it
a factor in his campaign for equal rights?
There's much more and it is more complicated than that.
No. We're not going to out-anarch the anarchists on the right. All arming ourselves does is justify dismissing us as the "antifa" boogeymen, or killing us as the Black Panthers and SLA were.
While I'm not going to predict it, I also wouldn't rule out the breakup of the union. However, this time, it must not be civil war, but a mutually-agreed, non-violent dissolution.
This is scary. The logical conclusion for this is that one day soon we will turn on the evening news and see the reports of a left-right shoot out with many deaths, including collateral death and injuries.
Does anyone think that this will end well? The problem with weapons like guns in any situation is that they tend to get used. Of the the shootings and gun deaths recorded in this country how many were actually defending life in the face of imminent threat of death? My preferred “weapons” are the truth (hence my subscriptions to the New York Times) and the ballot box. I am no stranger to and have no fear of weapons having served in the US Army for 30 years, but trust me that you do not want to go there. These are the weaponized apocalyptic fantasies of infantile and/or damaged minds and they need to be treated with the scorn that they deserve.
1
Not surprising that one group of people asserting that they need protection from a phantom tyranny should make their adversaries believe that they need protection from the armed people in that group.
"... several hundred dues-paying members and over 30 chapters. "
Does this really make for a new left-wing gun culture? The click-bait title sounds enticing, but can the sprinkling of people who aren't N.R.A. members with guns be called a Gun Culture?
What is gun culture anyway:Hunters? Those who view guns for protection; collectors- sports shooting?
That Ms Goldberg has so narrowly defined the term speaks of the weakness of this piece.
I am a liberal, ethnic Asian, and automatic weapons enthusiast. We are not sitting ducks, we are not lambs waiting to be slaughtered, and we will not sit here waiting for the far right to come and harm our women and children. We will be armed to the teeth waiting for them when that day comes. Good thing I live within walking distance to my favorite gun shop.
Funny. Dickens said it so well in 1859 --
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way."
Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities
There is nothing new under the sun about the left having guns. If you look at the Transition's Program written in 1938 by Leon Trotsky you will read that the program call for the formation of workers militia to defend the unions, the labour press and other working class organizations against the state police. In the 1920s the Communist Parties were explaining that one of the first task of a workers government should be to arm the workers. All that to say that if working class people decided to buy guns to defend themselves against the Right, the NRA will surely switch side and like in the 1960s against the Black Panther, they will advocate…. gun control!
There has been an implicit lie among 2nd amendment zealots that only the right has weapons and knows how to use them. I have said all along this is a lie.
I am former military and a former NRA member and a lifelong hunter. I am not a 2nd amendment zealot. I don't believe civilians need military weaponry, nor have any business owning it. This thought is proven correct on far too many occasions.
America has far too many guns to believe they are only owned by the "right" people.
I believe it was Teddy Roosevelt who said. "Speak softly, but carry a big stick" or words to that effect. Some of those big, bad gun toting, gun displaying, exhibitionists of the far right ought to understand there are a lot of equivalents to "big sticks" out there. People just don't talk about them. This is nothing new.
I encourage everyone to watch “The Armor of Light” usually available on Netflix. It is the powerful story of the journey of a southern pastor who picketed abortion clinics, his decision to become armed, and his coming to know the mother of a black teenager who was murdered by a gas station attendant in Florida. The teen’s crime? Refusing to turn down his car radio.
When the pastor reluctantly decided to own a hand gun, he went to an instructor with advanced military training and experience who told him this: if you own a gun and unholster it in a situation you are admitting to yourself that you are willing to take a life. If you aren’t capable of accepting that reality then you have no business owning a gun.
The second amendment has been twisted into something the Founding Fathers wouldn’t recognize.
I went to bed on November 8, 2016 fearing that what I thought was impossible was indeed happening. On waking the next day and seeing that fear confirmed, my first thought was maybe I should get a handgun. I looked into it. Turns out the darn liberals have made it extremely difficult to own a gun in New York City.
Political polarization is increasing. Apparently both sides feel the need to be heavily armed. Russia keeps sticking its finger in the pot to stir it up more. What could possibly go wrong?
Nonsense.
Since 9/11/01 a mere 0.75 % of Americans have volunteered to wear the military uniform of any American armed force. Where they have been ground to emotional, mental and physical dust by repeated deployments in foreign ethnic sectarian civil wars that have no military solution.
While the rest of us pretend to be brave honorable and patriotic by rising to sing the national anthem and salute the flag at sporting events. Donald Trump, Jr., Eric Trump and Sean Hannity are only armed threats to birds and bunnies.
1
@Blackmamba
The image of a bunch of fat old white men waving their Glocks and lead by draft dodgers Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent actually trying a rightist putsch is hilarious ... until they get gunned down.
I don't know if you've noticed it, but the NRA has toned down the "2nd amendment remedies" a bit, and I attribute that to Ollie North taking over. He actually understands what the realities would be.
2
The irony of this column is that the NRA will pull parts of it out of context to claim that vast numbers on the Left are arming and preparing to invade the Red States. That should sell still more and bigger guns among the faithful.
2
People should put the white supremacist threat in perspective.
A joint bulletin published by the FBI and Department of Homeland Security showed white supremacists
murdered 49 Americans in 26 attacks from 2000 to 2016,” an average of about 3.06 murders per year. (The report included the eight congregant killed in the Charleston Church shooting.)
The New York Times recently cited a study that showed “there were at least 1,319 road rage episodes involving firearms during the three-year period [2014-2016] examined, with at least 354 people wounded and 136 killed,” an average of 45.3 murders per year.
According to the FBI, there were 17,284 murders in 2017.
Civil war?
No, before that happens I want a military coup. I trust the military, far more than Republicans.
It's no small irony that Hatebook has assisted this group to become more organized, and facilitated having their message spread. Although many of us veterans are all too familiar with firearms, and don't believe any of the right wing, paranoid idiocy on display in this country, especially that disgraceful Charlottesville debacle, it still doesn't make sense to support arming civilians, as a protection from "tyranny".
We need to reinforce the Constitution, the rule of law, and citizen participation in local government. What could possibly sound more "corny", right? But comic book fantasies about street-fighting "militias" is just that. There should be no fear-mongering from the left, in the form of "weaponizing". That's not how our country works, and ask your local LEOs if that's something they support.
Rather, let's BREAK UP HATEBOOK, REGULATE TWITTER, and BREAK UP GOOGLE. This is not "off topic", it's time to focus on the "social media" phenomenon which has, globally (Myanmar, Philippines) caused death and horror, literally, as people have been brainwashed by its affects. This isn't a joke. We're under siege, and it's from "social media" as much as any government entity. People are too easily "outraged", too easily excited by a "social media" that wants nothing in its way, it just wants to "continue the conversation", which is the corporate wording for "don't you dare touch us, we're making money!". Time to change!
1
What a mess our country is.
Our government no longer works for us, nor can our “representatives” even work together. We are so polarized that it is hard to see how we could ever have the same goals anymore. That ship sailed decades ago when we permitted angry propagandizing infotainment programs to masquerade as actual news and reality. Ignorance and fear mongering rule supreme.
The USA is too large and too polarized now. It should split apart. That would be a terribly messy process and there would be winners and losers. But a civil war would be catastrophic. Don’t think it can’t happen here.
This is the essence of the Second Amendment. Every American has the constitutionally guaranteed right to protect themselves. The Government can’t or won’t do it. In fact, we may need to protect ourselves from the Government!
1
I watched July 22 last night, the story of Norway's horrific murders. It shows the graphic results of gun shots. I do not agree with arming any side. Particularly, not in Houses of Worship.
The NRA's position has always been that deadly force is the only thing " those people" understand. It has always struck me as a text book example of projection, namely, that it's the only thing that NRA members understand.
The NRA has also asserted that the "armed society is a polite society". So it will be interesting to see if the NRA reponds more "politely" to left-wingers once the latter are better armed. I'd be willing to bet on the negative, and I'd be willing to offer odds.
Look carefully at the guns in your illustrative photo.
You've got a couple lever action carbines at the top. The 2nd one is I assume a Winchester Model 94. Then a couple of shotguns. And a single shot 22 on the bottom.
Who cares whether someone has one of those locked away in their closed?
It's the assault rifles and the semi-automatic handguns that you have to worry about.
I like your point that if liberals start owning and carrying guns, the right wing might rethink it's absolute total opposition to any form of gun control. And yes, the thought of strapping up has crossed my mind when I read or hear about a situation like the murders in Pittsburgh, or see the "open carry" nut jobs who haul assault rifles into their local Cracker Barrel.
Sometimes I really hate this movie.
If the Right truly believes in the Second Amendment, they should be applauding this. The NRA too - haven't they been telling us the answer is more guns everywhere?
I suspect their actual response is going to be more along the lines of the Reagan era prohibitions. Bullies hate victims that can fight back - one reason Trump is screaming about unarmed refugee immigrants, instead of armed terrorists. (Although he is trying to blur the two together.)
It's of a piece with the decades of hate speech demonizing liberals and democrats by talk radio and FOX. Eliminationist rhetoric is common. So now that Democrats are not taking it quietly any more, all of sudden the right is talking about civility and angry mobs...
Bullies and cowards, all of them.
Good. More of this please. No ones going to protect you. Protect yourself and your family and community. Read what Killer Mike has to say on this issue. He speaks the truth.
A joint intelligence bulletin issued by the FBI and Department of Homeland Security showed that white supremacists “committed 49 homicides in 26 attacks from 2000 to 2016,” an average of about three homicides per year. The report incorporated the eight black congregants murdered in the Charleston Church shooting. However, not all the victims were members of racial or ethnic traditionally targeted by white supremacist. Four victims were white supremacists killed by other white supremacist during arguments over drug deals while eight were law enforcement officers murders while attempting to arrest white supremacists for armed robbery and other offenses. So, white supremacists murdered 37 Americans because of their race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation during the 16-year period, an average f about over two murders per year.
The FBI Uniform Crime report shows that there were 17,284 murders in 2017. The total numbers of murders each year provide a much greater rationale for bearing arms than the two or three murders committed each year by white supremacist.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3924852-White-Supremacist-Extremism-JIB.html
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/murder
It's funny to reflect on how many of my comments the NYT has deemed not "civil" enough to be shared in this forum, regarding "the left" being armed--or to be more specific, regarding poor, minority, and working populations being armed.
Goldberg seems to be writing from the same kind of myopic "white privilege" (David Hogg's language) that not only can not see far enough beyond the horizon of its own giddy comfort and security to understand the kinds of daily threats many poor, minority, and working people in America's cities have to deal with, but who also derives a sense of security and amelioration from the photos of all of the police in hand-me-down military gear, weapons, and vehicles after "mass-shootings" have occurred.
Through Goldberg's "squishy liberal" lens, "gun culture has become virtually synonymous with American conservatism"--not in my city. Here in Detroit the chief of police has publicly suggested that citizens be armed, and one often hears of people successfully defending themselves and those whom they love, with their own guns. Not everything can be conveniently lumped into this simplistic binary that even the "smart" people continue to cripple themselves with.
Love,
An English professor in the city of Detroit, with a CPL, who legally owns a number of "high-capacity" rifles and handguns, who is completely fine with lengthy and rigorous background checks on all gun-purchases, and who will never be a member of the NRA
1
The SRA has an opportunity to state their position re arming that will make clear if they are pro or con the gun culture. If they just start gun clubs, nothing is clear, and more confusion is generated.
Since I spend a major portion of the year outside the US, where gun fetishism is not an issue, I find all of this hard to comprehend.
But it reminds me, as Ms. Goldberg notes, of the Black Panthers in Oakland. Could you blame them? Can you blame these people now?
With repeated attacks by right-wing terrorists; absent police (or spending their time shooting unarmed black people); a grossly irresponsible and violent minority political party controlling congress and the supreme court; and an unelected nut case as "president"? Given the above, it makes sense in a perverted way--a perversion we've brought upon ourselves.
Guns have great power. This power affects not only the person having a gun pointed at them but also the person pointing the gun. Faster than a speeding bullet the pointer becomes judge and jury and the person being pointed at becomes a reactionary. Front street in Dodge before gun control was a lawless place. If that is what we are headed for it will be the death by gun of a Nation of laws.
I am a liberal and am not anti-gun. Gun control is not, by any means, limited to the idea of 'no guns at all.' I grew up in the country and everyone hunted and had guns. I live again in a very rural area and it is more of the same.
I no longer have a gun in the house because I have anger management issues, especially these days. But most of the liberals/democrats I know are for gun control, but not for banning guns entirely. The content of this article does not surprise me, except in that it appears the author, although a liberal like myself (except I am not particularly 'squishy'), is surprised to learn that liberals own guns, and that it is not uncommon. Oh, and we are not all pacifists, by any means.
5
My life-long association with firearms (as a competitor, recreational shooter and instructor for Boy Scouts and criminal justice majors) has always been seen as mutually exclusive with my liberal political beliefs and my professional life as a musician and academic.
Close friends and former students were involved in the mass shootings at Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook Elementary. After these events, I disassociated myself from the NRA in response to the organization's insensitive and morally bankrupt reaction to these crimes.
During shooting events I have personally met people with political views that are far right of center and who espouse rhetoric that approaches fascism. While debates with them have rarely swayed their opinions and more frequently been acrimonious, I feel that I must remain engaged in the conversation in an attempt to serve as a moderating influence.
I believe strongly that the purpose of cultivating an organization of like-minded, liberal firearms owners is NOT to present armed counter-demonstrators at events such as the Charlottesville march. RATHER, any organization of this type should focus on the establishment of political work that results in the creation of legislation that enacts reasonable laws that protect the responsible use of firearms while restricting access to those members of our society whose purpose is to rend the fabric of our democracy with their actions.
6
I don't want to kill anyone and I don't feel threatened by my conservative acquaintances and friends. We agree to disagree and remain civil. I will never own a gun. Give peace a chance.
2
Well, I’ve often pointed out to liberals I know whenever they talk of rebelling against America (red America, anyway) that they need to remember which side has all the guns. Apparently that’s changing. I suppose we’ll soon have 500 million guns instead of 300 million. I remember that when Dubya won re-election against John Kerry, leftish radio wags suggested that we re-form into “Jesusland” and “The United States of Canada”. You’ll definitely need guns for that.
But I like the idea, actually. The biggest contributor to global climate change isn’t carbon-based fuel sources but our unmanageable and increasing populations. So … let’s arm EVERYONE. I’ll do my work in a bunker for a few years and let the left and right fight it out with state of the art weapons. When those who have done as I finally surface, we may be a country of 150 million or less, and we will have done our part to cut our carbon emissions dramatically. On to India, China and others.
And if the habit becomes entrenched to go about heavy with concealed and open-carry weapons … imagine how civil we will have become again. Even Democrats!
Thanks for the threat, and the holocaust fantasy. I allus enjoy that sort of thing with my coffee.
Ms. Goldberg, I hope this topic prompts you to make your liberalism less "squishy." It's highly unlikely that people arming themselves against threats from the armed right about "civil war" will lead to a good outcome, unless one includes scenarios of mass violence, or civil war, in the category of possible good outcomes.
The gun culture of the right is fundamentally anti-civilizational. It views the state of nature, a war of all against all, as a good outcome. This fits the basic power politics of the right, which Trump has revealed with crystal clarity: those with power should dominate everyone weaker than them.
Anyone who values "domestic tranquility," and who believes that government's job is not to make sure than no one interferes with the struggle for domination, but to "promote the general welfare," can only view the proliferation of guns on the left, and the talk of general violence, with the greatest dismay and disapproval.
This is a sad sign of the polarization of America. History shows that in the past armed leftists generally lost to armed rightists in highly industrialized nations, while armed leftists generally won in less industrialized societies.
Thanks for this column, especially for pointing out that the only way Republicans have ever restricted guns was based in racially motivated fear (Exhibit 1: Reagan in California). In other words, if one wants to restrict or ban assault rifles in, let's say, Texas, the only way to get that might well be to have a large number of African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans openly carry their AR 15 or similar.
4
I can imagine the SRA being parodied by the right as 'My Left Gun Nut', but I appreciate the SRA message that the left aren't pushovers, and have strict principles against violence and provocation. I might question the use of 'socialist' as provocative in itself, bit I find myself pretty much a social democrat in the way of Bernie Sanders' socialism.
6
The scariest part of the Charlottesville conflict was the arrival on the scene of fully armed and armored "militia" with no connection to law enforcement or the military. Is it unthinkable that wholesale gunfire aimed at innocent people couldn't have resulted? Think Kent State. There is a compelling logic, albeit a tragic one, to mutual deterrence(the tragedy lies in the inevitability of escalation). There are bad people out there from whom decent citizens need protection. I wish my virtue alone could be my shield.
3
The idea that weapons and violence are necessary to protect decency and democracy is more than just a seductive fantasy.
Part of the civilizing process has been the stumbling progress toward institutionalizing the control of violence in well regulated militaries and police forces.
But violence always breeds more violence. Antifa and the most well meaning groups advocating armed “self protection” always risk being played by forces without conscience or principle.
3
When Trump was nominated by the GOP, I bought a 12-gauge shotgun and a 9mm semi-automatic pistol, and learned how to use them. At the time, friends thought I had gone overboard - that our nation would come to its senses. Now, they’re not so sure.
It wasn’t inspired by fear or self-protection, but the possibility citizens would be required to defend the United States from a coup led by our president. “A coup in the U.S.? You’re out of your mind,” friends would have said, long before Trump suggested it was within his powers to rewrite the Constitution. I remain convinced that being forced to face up to that prospect is just a matter of time.
25
Just what we need, Mr. Meinetz- more guns on the street. It's a male response.
Some years ago when international money summit was held in Seattle there were some rioters causing trouble in downtown Seattle. A friend and I were going to dinner and he put a rifle in his pickup as we were leaving? I asked him why and he said "There are riots in Seattle. I need to protect myself." I said "Let's go to dinner somewhere else."
Let's all use our heads. We do NOT need more guns and violence.
1
@BobMeinetz -- if there were a coup, your small arms and the limited ammunition you can stockpile (even if you go crazy at it) ... will be worthless.
If this concerns you, join the National Guard.
2
@njglea, if you believe “using our heads” and caps-lock would save any government in the event of a Fascist coup, your argument is not with me but history.
Ms. Goldman, this headline is very misleading.
The article says, "It (socialist rifle association) launched in its current form this spring — before that there was a Facebook group of the same name — and now has several hundred dues-paying members and over 30 chapters. This Monday, 28 new people joined, the group said."
In other words a TINY group of politically left-leaning men are arming themselves. This is like the coverage of the tiny family church that consumed the news for their bad behavior. The "pastor" - the grandfather - is dead now and, in fact, their presence in the world had little to do with mainstream life.
Guns are just as dangerous in "socialist" hands as far right radicals. The mainstream press must stop giving attention to these fringe groups. They do not represent the thinking of the vast majority of American any more then the far right and The Con Don do. Please stop giving them your attention.
Thank you.
4
As an adult living in America, it’s probably not the worst idea to be able to handle and operate a firearm, but I can’t even begin to wrap my mind around the notion that there are still people who think that the Second Amendment currently has anything to do with halting government overreach.
Civil insurrection is a contingency that has almost certainly been planned for. The State does not play games. Think happy thoughts.
4
@ubique
The state has been unsuccessfully fighting an insurection in Afghanistan for 17years. It's only a matter of time before we declare victory and give the Taliban control. They only have rifles, the will to fight and IEDs.
Some history, the strongest military in the world got beat in Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan ... How did that happen?
@Randall Brown
An occupying force can not defeat an adversarial guerrilla militia without completely annihilating them.
In regards to Afghanistan specifically, we’ve known who the Taliban are in terms of regional legitimacy. No amount of paper money will change that.
The author's premise that this groups action is in response to others actions is accurate. When we fear loss of any sort we respond. How we respond is ultimately the question. Defending one's self can take different forms. Certainly working for change through good works, supporting candidates for office who we believe will advance our ideals. Yes and being prepared to protect our families and self from those who would physically harm us!
I believe in peace and that nonviolence is where I want to be. Do no harm unless it is to prevent greater harm. We will each decide what that idea means to us. May we do so in a way that preserves life and our personal freedoms.
4
If there are more guns in the US than people something might happen to cause mass organized shootings and killings.
I have never owned or fired a handgun or rifle, much less a semi-automatic killing machine and I've passed my 76th birthday and, hopefully, will not need to be armed.
But, I am very concerned with hate bubbling over in our Country. Right now it appears that the madness has not peaked as guns and bullets sales remain steady, if not increasing.
Will this madness ever stop?
Personally, I don't believe so...
This is what I am handing to the next generations to deal with, it was not the hope and life I was presented with starting in 1942.
8
"Part of the group’s mission is to simply provide a home for people who want to shoot, or to learn about shooting"
Want to learn how to shoot? Joined the armed forces or police force and get trained properly in all aspects of weapons .
Otherwise, right or left, you're more likely to cause damage than to protect or save anybody.
Real-life can be more pressured than a target at a shooting range that does not return fire.
10
@Joshua Schwartz
There are 40 - 80 million gun owners in the US, and the rates of violence from those gun owners is minuscule. There is danger involved in handling a firearm, but 99.9% of owners handle that responsibility very well.
Just ask the Korean shopkeepers during the Rodney King riots in LA.
10
@Emmett. But gun owners record when they are caught up in an armed conflict is not a good one. A parole officer I know won’t carry because within 20’ someone can get to your gun before you can. He learned that in training.
1
@Emmett
"rates of violence from those gun owners is minuscule." Are you kidding me? Guns are one of the leading causes non-health related deaths in U.S., which eclipses all other developed nations in gun death rates.
1
If we continue to be a country controlled by the minority (aka Republicans) (whether because of the electoral college, gerrymandering, voter suppression, or foreign election tampering/hacking), then we are headed to civl war.
The way to peacefully fix it is to elect Democrats across the board at the federal, state and local level so that we can finally address the items listed above and level the playing field.
Tyranny by the minority is a recipe for disaster.
6
@Jess Darby
Well, the Democrats could accept the results of valid elections, and work harder to convince the electorate that their socialist views are worthwhile. Instead, the left has been throwing temper tantrums, and reacting to not getting their way by threatening and committing violence.
Not very mature if you ask me.
1
This is a direct result of Republican defacto policy of anarchy.
Republicans pushed hard for zero campaign finance rules that allowed dark, corrupt money to hijack America's electoral system and today our electoral system is a sewer of lawless, unregulated 0.1% filth and oligarchic corruption....democracy, reasoned discourse, and informed democracy be damned to Grand Old Propaganda.....just the way Republicans like it.
Same with firearms.
Deregulate guns and ammo; eradicate almost all gun laws so and Tom, Dick or psychopathic Harry can walk into daycare centers, libraries, schools, supermarkets, churches, synagogues and shopping mall with the equivalent of a small nuclear weapon and set it off in the name of "free-DUMB !"
The 2018 Small Arms Survey reported that 40%of the global total - 393 million guns - are owned by civilians in the United States....1.2 guns per American.
That is clinically insane.
https://www.statista.com/chart/14468/us-civilians-own-393-million-firearms/
Republican public policy has created an unregulated national shooting gallery with its 2nd Amendment Derangement Syndrome policy.
Lawless unregulated anarchy policy is what Republicans adore because it preserves the sanctity of Reverse Robing Hood Robber Barons grand economic and political larceny that is the heart and soul of the Greed Over People party.
85 dead American gunshot victims every day of the year is a small price to pay for unregulated 0.1% greed.
Guns Over People
Nov 6 2018
VOTE.
170
@Socrates
Only about a third of the population own those guns I've read. The synagogue shooter was carrying four that day himself and had more at home. Vote!
4
The Republicans and the NRA exploit fear. The fear of millions that guns turn unknown people into homicidal people and lead them to fear just about anyone who owns and uses guns. Resolve that fear and the millions of gun owners in this country will likely agree with all kinds of useful controls that will make everyone safer. Allow that fear to flourish and that willingness to cooperate will remain dormant.
3
@Socrates
It is correct that the US population as a whole owns an atypically high number of weapons.
It is also correct that a surprisingly high number of those weapons are concentrated in the hands of a very narrow slice of the population.
8% of all gun owners own 40% of all the guns.
https://www.rsfjournal.org/doi/full/10.7758/RSF.2017.3.5.02
I'm not sure that spreading ownership further is the right corrective to such mania.
3
One of my former neighbors in Northern Virginia is an acclaimed poet who has a cabin somewhere in the mountains of Colorado.
She lives alone there.
I once asked her if she had a gun for protection.
"Of course not," she replied.
That choice was hers to make.
In the same living situation I sure would have owned at least one firearm for protection.
Guns are like abortion - if you don't want one, don't have one. Just don't stand in the way of the folks who do.
FWIW, an well trained armed guard might have eliminated or minimized the bloodshed in Pittsburgh.
8
jbartelloni....it's always important to blame the victim for the Republican creation of America's fatal, unregulated national shooting gallery.
Wild West 1850's Anarchy For A Brighter Tomorrow
GOP 2018
Nice GOPeople
12
@jbartelloni
I would say six wounded Police officers with special training would dispel your security guard theory. Your assuming the shooter is inexperienced with the weapons he or she is using or has no prior (military,etc.) training. I have no problem with responsible gun ownership but, in any civilized society you have to have common sense laws to protect the population from itself. One person whether it is a guard or teacher going toe to toe with a shooter like this is expecting a miracle. More power to you if you want to take that job on.
@jbartelloni
'Guns are like abortion - if you don't want one, don't have one. Just don't stand in the way of the folks who do.'
Americans need to stop making simplistic false equivalencies when making political arguments. Comparing the right to one's own autonomy to gun regulation is dangerous. We are better then this.
If arming the left - and, especially, people with noticeable levels of melanin in their skin - encourages the right to consider sensible gun control, then I'm for it... maybe, reluctantly.
Meanwhile, I wonder if there are any others, of any political persuasion, who know in their heart they must never own a gun - specifically for their own safety? What I mean:
I know that I am too emotional a person to own a gun, to completely trust myself. In particular, I am aware that in moments of despair and depression - unfortunately common for me - there's too high a risk I would use the gun on myself.
Then there'd just be one less democratic voter and devastated family members. Not worth it. I don't really have any valuables worth taking anyway.
The things really worth protecting are intangible.
9
I think given the noble heartfelt efforts of the young following the school shootings the past couple of years, the last thing they need from us as Democrats is to start wavering in our resolve over ideas of gun ownership. Please we have to be calm here. In much the way we call for perspective after a terrorist attack from other points of origin, we have to view an event like the one at the temple as isolated and not give in to the kind of paranoia we so often say of the Right - who immediately default to 'sky falling' logic to boost their gun owning rights and harsher security. I feel it is a backwards, and backwoods mindset to even invoke the concept of Civil War.
6
@ygj As long as current laws allow people to have these weapons of mass murder, and Trump is emboldening dangerous people I will feel unsafe being unarmed. These are perilous times, and while tensions are heightened I'll feel better being armed. Five years ago I felt differently, in fact I mocked those who felt they needed an AR-15 to protect their homes. If gun laws are changed for the better I will gladly surrender mine.
@ygj Perspective? Patriot Prayer, an armed extremist neo-fascist group, brought rifles to an otherwise peaceful protest in Oregon, and started setting them up on a parking garage roof, but were stopped when police investigated. Stopped--not arrested, not imprisoned, but politely asked to go home. This was not reported by the police until MONTHS after it happened.
My perspective is that if I don't protect myself, the sympathizers on those police forces (see also Berkeley, and Massachusetts) sure won't.
1
@ygj We're not Democrats.
How can anyone can view the massacre in Pittsburgh as isolated? It's not isolated, either as a mass shooting or an act of racist violence.
1
I first joined the NRA in 1968, when I took up riflery as part of my Scouting experience. Back in the day they were an organization dedicated to the safe handling and use of firearms. (While they do still provide thousands of safety courses around the country, they have also gone totally off the rails.)
During the intervening years I had pretty much stopped shooting. In late 2015, as trump gained momentum and moved towards winning the Presidential nomination of the republican party my interest in guns was reawakened. I saw this person and his rhetoric as a real threat to the country. I obtained my state of Illinois Firearm Owner's Card that November, began taking basic safety courses, and purchased my first handgun. More training and regular practice led to obtaining my concealed carry license, and the acquisition of additional handguns. (BTW, I am about 2,000 miles to the left of just about everyone I meet at the range.)
I've since moved to Philadelphia, where once again I obtained a concealed carry license. My personal arsenal now numbers 4 9mm handguns, one of which is capable of holding 30 rounds in the magazine. I order ammo 1,000 rounds at a time. I don't actually carry at this time, and hope I never need to, but am content in the knowledge that should I feel it necessary I can legally do so.
This may seem extreme to many readers of the NY Times, however, I have no doubt that encouraged by their leader armed revolt by many of his followers is not out of the question.
38
In any political confrontation whoever has the most guns wins. It's wishful to think otherwise, after all, political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
The left must also work on taking back the flag.
12
I've been a lifelong Democrat and am pretty far left on many issues. My brother was nominated to the IRS Oversight Board by President Obama. Both of us have always been part of a firearms culture, irrespective of politics. But the highly flammable politics nowadays overprints everything. For me, firearms chats have actually worked as a way to bridge the ideological gap to conservatives.
My worry is with all this inflammatory rhetoric, more and more people will be striking matches to ignite the political gasoline. Pittsburgh, for example. If we get to the point where both sides really believe that levelling ARs at each other is the solution, the nation will fall apart, which would be the equivalent of destroying the village in order to save it.
384
@ Khal Spencer Los Alamos, NM
I congratulate you as the first person I encounter who is "a lifelong Democrat ... pretty far left on many issues" and "always ... part of a firearms culture". Until reading your comment, I always thought that Democrats are dyed-in-the-wool touchy-feely opponents of fire-arms. More Democrats of your convictions would help end the reign of the current occupant of the White House.
18
@Khal Spencer
I have liberal Democratic family members who hunt. They own various sorts of hunting rifles. They own handguns as well, but they don't own AR-15's. Why? They're not in the military have no need for a gun whose sole purpose is to mow down a whole bunch of people at once, which is what those guns are for.
It should have been up to people like my gun-owning relatives and you to define 'gun culture' in this country. But, no, you've all been silent and the NRA has set the tone. Go to their website and have a look around. Does that rhetoric represent you? No? Do something about it besides lecturing the rest of us that AR-15's will destroy the village.
21
I think people on the Right tend to brag about the number of guns they own. It makes them look tough, strong and menacing. But it's a mistake to assume that the Leftists are unarmed weaklings. A significant number of us grew up in households with firearms and still own them today. I may not have a huge arsenal, but I'm certainly able to protect myself. And I had them long before Trump even thought about running for president.
10
@Patty O
Probably the only thing that will cause R-kons to change their pro-gun stance is women and gays buying guns to protect themselves.
We inherited one from an old-time Bay Area lesbian. Guess it's time to learn how to put in the bullets.
1
Dear NRA,
Mission accomplished. You now have everyone so afraid of everyone else they feel they need to arm themselves.
You have everyone convinced that gun control - registering arms, requiring paperwork and registration to resell guns, reducing the opportunity to run guns up I95 to supply local gangs and criminals, requiring licensing, education and insurance- means eliminating guns, or not letting people buy guns at all.
You have convinced a large portion of the nation that they need the same firepower the army has.
Liberals for guns -arming themselves against fascist neighbors - there's an oxymoron.
Sincerely, .... A Pragmatist
Folks, guns are tools. Some neighbors are tools too. Some people need protection and they should be able to get it. Most of us don't.
Is there something in the water right now (which is possible given our EPA) that is making us crazy? If so, I am not sure more guns is the best solution. Think first, shoot later.
275
@Cathy
I am quite sure that more guns are not the best solution. They are no solution at all.
Guns are the last refuge of the fearful.
They don't make fear go away, they weaponize it.
That some on the left have succumbed to the right's fear-mongering, was, sadly inevitable. For some, fear prompts an "if you're afraid you can't protect yourself from them, act like them," response.
Fear must not make the left become the thing it opposes. For if it does, then it, and this country, is already lost.
23
@Cathy There is a huge difference between the left and right on guns....I would say that almost everyone on the left with a gun would be more than happy with registration requirements, background checks for all, assault weapon bans etc etc etc.... The problem is with those on the other side...and there are plenty of people on the left on this issue who do not believe in unilateral disarmament.
17
@Cathy
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
George Orwell
If you read the comments or the message boards on almost every gun-related forum, going back at least a decade, you will see vitriol, hatred, thinly veiled threats and promises to violence, absolute intolerance for any difference of opinion, and a bunch of angry, ignorant, armed (mainly white) guys looking for an excuse to shoot their "enemies." This is true in the Northeast, in California, and other places you'd consider blue and at least somewhat rational. The only pragmatic thing anyone in the center or on the Left can do is arm up, because those big talkers so tend to be a bunch of scared old men who back off when challenged. Keyboard warriors or not, their emotional instability makes them dangerous.I won't give up guns to set a good example--I'd prefer to keep mine polished in case one of these tacti-fools tries to make me an example.
9
God did not make men equal. Smith and Wesson did.
9
Any relation to Jesse?
@Robert James From Cambridge of all places!
We on the left need to stop talking about guns. Talk only fires up the gun toting right wing, and helps us to lose elections.
If we ever regain control of Congress, or if we can discuss in those smoke filled back rooms with Republicans, something might move forward. Until then, it's a losing tactic.
7
There is an upper 90th percentile of respondents in poll after poll that want some form of gun control. Background checks alone enjoy 90th percentile support. Stop being scared about saying the right thing. Good ideas are the cream — they always rise to the top.
4
@Don Reeck
Agreed. Nothing unites the right like the fear of their guns being taken away, and any amount of gun control by the left is seen as such. "X" may well be correct that even they want *some* gun control, but proposing such is easily and rapidly twisted into a totalitarian threat.
While I'd usually agree with X that we should stick to stating what we think is right, gun control short of banning them completely is just not important enough to be worth losing election after election.
2
The NRA touts gun ownership as a means of protection against a potential tyrannical government. Ironically, the result is that those of us who are not paranoid about the rise of such a government may end up needing guns to protect ourselves against those mentally disturbed people who are.
10
The history of our country is filled with cultural artifacts that are painful to recount and are permanent stains on our nation---slavery being the best example. Our culture's deep embrace of firearms is another one of those cultural artifacts that over the years has caused more harm than good and continues to transforms community institutions dedicated to peace and education--schools, churches---into arm forts.
5
You should get out and try shooting a pistol. There are four, overlapping safety rules to create redundancy around mistakes.
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded
2. Never let the muzzle of the gun point at anything you don't wish to kill or destroy
3. Finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to fire
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
If you engage, you might find that some of the pro-gun arguments are correct, and the scary stuff on both extremes is just extreme.
Conceal carriers are among the safest and most law abiding people in the nation, far safer than cops.
Signs on doors stop decent law abiding people from carrying guns inside, but have no effect on the murderous or criminal, other than to assure a safer place to kill.
Banning guns bans guns from those safe, law abiding folks, not from criminals. Prohibition has not yet worked in this country, but it has been disastrous twice.
Conceal carriers are a small fraction of the population, but have stopped up to 10% of mass shootings.
10
@Wake -- you say "Conceal carriers are among the safest and most law abiding people in the nation, far safer than cops."
This is one of the big memes of gun advocates ... and it is, and simultaneously isn't ... true.
I presume you are talking about statistics taken from Texas, were conviction rates for those with concealed carry permits are public.
The problem with the bulk comparison (or what inference you make from it) is that gun crime rates are extremely aged dependent. The age distribution of those licensed to carry in Texas is considerably older that the age distribution of cops in Texas.
1
@Wake
As we see now, every law abiding gun owner is a law abiding gun owner - until he isn't. Can you tell the difference?
1
@Wake
''Signs on doors stop decent law abiding people from carrying guns inside, ''
Banning concealed carry in places that serve alcohol is entirely reasonable.
Safety on, and finger off the trigger until target acquired might be a better way to shoot weapons that have safetys. There are always a few hunting stand accidents at this time of year.
1
Yep, my very left college-age son wants a handgun. And he wants us to get one, too. Took me by surprise. I don't intend to get one, but husband used to like to shoot at a range, so maybe he will. Then father and son can take up a new hobby. So very strange to me.
I do wonder if this trend will change the debate at the NRA.
6
As with most trends, Canadians tend to trail Americans, exhibiting less zeal and more modest fervor. But I hear rumblings of similar sentiments among Canadians, where the centre of the political spectrum lies far past the edge of the American left.
The elevating demands for relaxed gun control from the "us too" Canadian right NRA-wanna-bes has engendered growing disquieting.distrust
3
The police will not be there to help if a crime against you is imminent or in times of civil unrest,
There are many firearms short of current-issue combat rifles that provide serious protection. The Germans did considerable damage in WWII with their bolt-action rifles.
It seems illogical to most gun enthusiasts that a person would rather be ignorant of guns and defenseless. In my experience, this attitude is a result of a too-narrow upbringing by overly opinionated parents.
4
I can't believe that any Democratic candidate would support any form of private citizens arming themselves. They're the one's who for years have vilified Republicans who've exercised their second amendment rights. It demonstrates yet further division within the Democratic Party and what they'll do to get votes. Sad.
5
@Kurt Pickard You can advocate for gun control and still own guns. Like anything else there is a time, kind, and place for guns. A civilized society has a right and obligation to have controls and our Constitution does allow for that.
1
@Kurt Pickard
But not nearly as sad as how the republicans have prostrated themselves for money and votes.
@Kurt Pickard Why don't you look at Reagan's record on gun control and then talk to me about political opportunism.
There's no "common sense gun control" the left seeks that doesn't ultimately end at a complete ban. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. You know how you know this? Every person who embraces "common sense gun control" actually supports a full ban.
4
@Jon W. I don't know how you arrived at this convoluted logic unless it was derived from an NRA talking point meant to deflect from any serious discussion of gun control. Many of us who advocate "common sense gun control" are in fact gun owners.
5
@Jon W. I am for stringent gun control, I'd like to see something like Australia's .. but that is nothing like a ban.
In Australia it's not hard to get licensed for for a bolt-action rifle or a break-action shotgun.
Getting licensed for a semi-auto is tough, but not impossible.
2
@John Warnock Very simple. Most liberals, when they say "common sense gun control" are asking for a full ban on semi-automatics. If you're actually a gun owner yourself, you would know that such a ban would be a de facto ban on guns.
Interesting phenomenon. I'm a liberal living in a quiet rural area with a deep hunting/gun culture. My county is one that flipped for Trump and helped put him in the White House. I've never held or fired a gun, but I understand how some on 'my side' have reached the point that they are taking up arms.
I was pretty unnerved recently when, dropping off my car at my mechanic's place after hours, he greeted me in the lot with a handgun strapped to his hip. Is this really how we want to live?
The freedom to live without carrying a weapon is a foundation of human civilization. We should be working hard to preserve this, not casually surrendering this type of peace to fear and violence.
Not carrying a gun, when many people with whom you politically disagree are, is scary. I don't know if it's brave or foolish that I continue to walk through my American life without a gun.
7
Well, well, Smith and Wesson, you seem to be getting what you want, just maybe not so much in the way you wanted it. FDR campaigned on "a chicken in every pot". You and the NRA have campaigned on "a gun in every house".
We look more like Israel and Palestine all the time.We inch closer and closer to civil war. Brought to us yet again by the same parts of the country that started the last one. That one ended, but it never healed.
I have no interest in living through a civil war. Fortunately, I live in a sane region of the country were guns are fewer and rhetoric less overblown. I suspect it may have something to do with our educational systems that teach science in place of religion and critical thinking in place of blind obedience. I am grateful that no one in our region totes a rifle to go to the grocery store. I wish everyone lived in a similar place.
Billionaires, this is your doing. You on the libertarian right have funded this drift towards radicalism of the right fueled by rampant economic inequality and excused as deriving from some place far, far away from simple pedestrian greed on your part. Is it any wonder that it has finally frightened the left into feeling they must literally fight fire with fire? When the shooting starts, you may not find yourselves as protected as your small army of bodyguards make you feel you are. Trump may be your mouthpiece, but the message comes straight from you, bought and paid for with campaign dark money advertising.
6
Disappointing to see Michelle describe herself as a "squishy liberal." This plays into the tired trope of liberals being "soft" and "weak" while conservatives as "hard" and "strong" and "rock-ribbed." It's bad enough when right wingers use this language; people like Michelle shouldn't be engaging in it.
The reality is that it takes a lot more strength to love than to hate, more courage to engage in peaceful protest than to engage in violence.
Signed,
A rock-ribbed progressive
33
I like the honesty of the term.
I’m an Austin liberal, which is its own subspecies (grew up around guns but haven’t shot them in years. Keep meaning to get a hunting license).
But I think the author is definitely a squishy liberal, and don’t think of it as an insult or even overly self deprecating.
I would frankly rather leave the country altogether than ever own a firearm. In a big way, I view the increasing intensity of the gun culture as a barometer for sustainable livability in the United States.
10
@Danielle Awesome! I’ll pay for your one way plane ticket. Where do you want to go?
If only people took heart disease - the real killer - so seriously! I find myself more and more these days urging people to take a deep breath, put down the computer, and go outside. The truth is that violent crime, all across the board, is way down from where it was back in the 1990s - this is despite the fact that the country has more and more guns every year. Do we have any actual evidence that the hatred and anger that is all over the internet is spreading to the real world? If we truly look, we will most likely see that it is not. Please everyone, calm down!
4
@Tim this past week has given us plenty of evidence - pipe bombs, synagogue shootings for example. But, I agree, we do all need to calm down.
@Tim m
Then why do the "good guys with guns" feel the need to carry if they are so safe? The real fear is fear of the mythological "good guy with a gun."
@Tim m I'll be sure to tell Dylan Roof, James Alex Field, James Jackson, Jeremy Joseph Christian, et al, that the internet and hateful rhetoric aren't radicalizing them into committing real-life violence.
As an American he has an absolute right to possess firearms. While I disagree with his liberal political views I applaud him for exercising his 2nd Amendment rights.
5
I never understood the "fascism is here but take away our guns" stuff being out forth by some folks. The Second Amendment is the last line of defense for the First Amendment. That doesn't mean common sense controls are a bad thing.
9
The Democrats are too vain. We aren't open enough to seeing complex social issues as they are. We don't communicate or compromise much, and this is a big reason we lose too often.
We should begin with promoting gun rights; for hunters, at the very least. Say it. It's real and an important issue for many. Guns are not the enemy, not when talking about hunting. This is the nation we live in; so, who do we expect to vote for us is we're unsure what actual 'rights' there are for gun ownership.
And, again, this must be an issue addressed.
Abortion is something everyone would like to see become less necessary. Say that. Talk about the fall in numbers of abortions in the US, mainly due to education, contraception, better jobs for women. Address this important issue, do not side-step it. Deal with it like a real citizen. Some people vote primarily on what you say about this. Get used to it, this is our nation.
Immigration has to be limited. Right? True? Say that, and say why, and talk about trying to help those in need already here. It's not that complicated.
Trump is a vile, greedy, bully of a man, who will fall in due time. We must stand up to his lying ways. Just be clear and speak sensibly. Don't let his madness, and his Republican Party's, bring us into the gutter. There's no reason for that.
True. Clear. Often.
15
@ttrumbo
I say all of those things every day. Today, I'm all over the gun issue--I have no problem with responsible gun ownership.
Abortion? I have never met a single woman who wants abortions for the fun of it. We accept limits on abortion. This is what confounds me on the right--they won't give an inch. They don't want any abortions, period. If they won't listen to their own pro-choice Republicans who ardently put forth your arguments--there was actually a national group that finally disbanded because they were getting nowhere--why on earth are they going to listen to Democrats? And, religious folk are not fond of sex education in schools except abstinence. Exactly what am I supposed to do--we already have limits on how late in term abortions can be performed, something appropriately defined by doctors, not Democrats.
Finally, we have immigration laws. I've always advocated strongly that every single employer be required to use e-Verify, but they won't. They want their cheap, illegal, immigrant labor. Sorry, but the primary method for ensuring that people don't come here is to have no jobs for them. Then, we can deal more effectively with humanitarian immigration issues which no Christian should ever abandon.
That is a mainstream Democratic view on your issues. We need gun control, not abolition. Abortion? Set limits, but we're not giving up the right. Immigration? Enforce the laws we already have rigorously, then let's see where we stand.
2
@CF Yes, yes....but too many Democrats avoid these issues, somehow 'conceding' them to the Republicans....Our views on these issues are more realistic, and just as 'moral'.....We just need to discuss them, openly.....
I think we're once again demonstrating why guns shouldn't be politicized. Dragging guns into politics is provoking escalation. The underlying issues are public safety and the appropriate administration of justice. These subjects have nothing to do with your political affiliation. The mistake of the NRA was associating gun hobbyism with political hobbyism.
The Black Panthers were something different. The Black Panthers had a legitimate social grievance. Law enforcement was/is racially prejudiced against members of the black community. Organizing armed militias was one relatively effective way to prevent racial profiling. The Black Panthers would follow patrol cars brandishing weapons. Whenever a police car stopped a black resident, they would watch the entire interaction start to finish. Oddly enough, these demonstrations were the most appropriate application of the 2nd Amendment to date.
I guess I'm happy there's a counter movement to the NRA's cultish paranoia but not really. Neither group experiences systematic violence or oppression in the same way as the black community. Their grievances so far are purely hypothetical. The Bundy family stole grass and they had the nerve to point guns at law enforcement officials to avoid paying their bill. This is probably the worst application of the 2nd Amendment I've ever seen. We should really just focus on what will stop gun deaths.
1
@Andy this is dangerous and disingenuous argument--why would you assume that gun owners of color are not included, much less not an intrinsic part, of left-leaning gun groups? Further, the violence suffered by our gay and trans friends is hardly hypothetical. Sadly, this administration's systematic dismantling of environmental protections, worker protections, and women's bodily autonomy means that we all suffer varying degrees of social, as well as physical violence. Watching nazis march in the street (this is not hyperbole--Nazis marched in Anaheim, CA a few months ago) means that whether you want them politicized or not, guns are a very real part of the discourse.
@Andy The NRA was silent when John Crawford and Philando Castile were killed. They have no interest in defending the Second Amendment rights of black people. Then again, how many black people live in Russia?
@Robert
I did not say guns were not politicized. I said guns should not be politicized. Switzerland seems to have found that unique balance with compulsory military service but strict gun laws. Guns are a non-issue at the voting booth. We have not.
I can understand why some people particularly at risk from violence from the right--gays and trans people, Jews, Hispanics and Blacks, possibly women--would feel the need to arm themselves. But, I am conflicted about it. Personally, I have never wanted a gun in my home. I live in a Blue city, in a Blue state and feel relatively safe from the right-wing hysteria I see and read about in other parts of the country. But, the country is changing so much, with millions in thrall to Trump's lies, that these leftys with guns might be on to something.
5
This liberal has yet to feel the need to be armed. I have considered the possibility as a safeguard against the crazies who might be packing. But then I am not so biased that I can't see most gun owners are responsible people who have no desire to kill anything they cant purchase a hunting license for. When they start issuing licenses for liberal season I will gladly purchase whatever high powered semi auto weapon I can get my hands on. In the meantime I refuse to make the NRA happy.
4
NEVER AGAIN! We are in the middle of a new McCarthy era. Only the entire Republican party is in on the putsch. When the real history is written--and it will be, profusely illustrated with videos, audios, emails, and transcripts that can never be obliterated or erased, released above the howls (or whimpers) of the perpetrators--the whole Trump Crime Family, with them included and often featured, will appear as clear as day in the annals of infamy. NEVER AGAIN!
3
The Right have co-opted "self defense" as a cultural virtue: the right to bear arms. When the Black Panthers did so fifty years ago, the Right summoned citizens to a gun control that is virtually unthinkable now.
I wonder why.
16
I never thought I would own a weapon but as a Jew and former New Yorker living on the gulf coast of Florida I have experienced anti-semitism first hand. I go to synagogue every Friday night with a 38 special in my pocket and have been for several years.
6
I actively strive to maintain peace with all family, friends, and strangers every single moment of every single day. There is no reason for anyone to shoot me, so for that reason, I am not scared. *If* I get killed, it will be senseless. But I know enough about statistics to know the chance of being murdered senselessly is very, very low.
1
I have a difficult time resolving my personal decisions about when to carry a concealed handgun. A Jew with a rural southern lifestyle and 20 years of CCW permit, I've taken many hours of training and practice regularly. That does not at all resolve the uncertainty of how I or anyone would behave in the grave extreme of being present at a mass shooting. I very rarely carry a handgun but regularly attend adult classes held at a large unguarded JCC and admit that the vulnerability of being in such a soft target is the only frightening situation that motivates me to have a weapon at hand. A reaction to domestic terrorism? A response to antisemitic wing nuts who have targeted JCC's in the past? This difficult, regularly revisited yet unresolvable choice started years ago; the heartbreaking murders at the Tree of Life could have been anywhere, any time. The suggestion that Shabbat services everywhere should have armed presence is repugnant, and yet here I am, next door to a temple, deciding how defenseless I should be...
3
I've thought about purchasing a firearm since it's easy and legal to do so here in Virginia. So far I've elected not to because I truly despise guns. A good friend of mine is a retired police officer -- New York City and Florida. When we were 20 he joined the force and showed me his service weapon. Pick it up he said. I didn't. I hated guns then and don't like them now. But I realize that i and my family may need it not for the bad guys who want my 60 inch tv or car, but from a nut job who thinks my Black mouth sipping a coffee in "his" diner is an affront to his sense of place and power.
11
As I have seen gun culture and the people it seems to attract get more extreme and even bizarre over the decades, I have for years only half jokingly admonished my friends that, "If we don't buy guns, only the Republicans will have them!"
Not so jokey anymore.
6
It is amazing how people who don't trust the government, the rich or the police want to limit access to firearms to the very people they don't trust. The goals of gun control advocates is similar to the goals of anti smoking advocates. Smoking in NYC is now outlawed in all restaurants, bars, public housing, beaches, parks and within feet of doorways. They started with creating smoking sections but look where we've come. The goal of gun control advocates is the registration of every gun and their eventual confiscation. When pressed, they admit it. A Black woman living in an inner city has a natural and Constitutional right to own a gun to protect herself and her family and neighbors. We are not serfs who need to wait to be protected by our masters.
4
@Mike Ask Marissa Alexander about that.
I’ve never considered myself “left wing”...progressive is about as far as I’ll go. But neither am I unarmed...I’ve always had weapons in the house, and I know how to use them. Perhaps because I served in the USMC, perhaps because I live in Maine.
1
The comments reflect the confusion Trump has sown and perhaps the confusion we have about each other. I am sure that many republicans are ordinary people, just like the ones in my family who in this polarized and contentious time encouraged by a president to likes catch phrases and opinions over facts. How many of us were lucky enough to raise up out of our labor class families into the middle class, go to college and move out of the box. Democrats are not any different. Many like underdogs and respect the strength it took to see the bigger picture...not socialism but democracy. They are not "snowflakes" or any of the other terms Trump tries to make stick. Corporations need to be balanced because they will do what many have always done. Look at our history, based on a european model of colonialism. People are consistently in the way of progress...the Love Canal smacks of what is happening in Louisiana. Farmers are replaced by big agra who are in bed w Monsanto. I vote for people and people will prevail. Guns is all about $.
On Rosh Hashana, my rabbi gave a sermon about how precious our children are and the need to protect them and instill in them Jewish values. Afterward, I asked him why he didn't mention gun control in connection with protecting our children, and he replied that this was "too political." Then, after Pittsburgh, he emailed the congregation about how armed guards would now be present at services. Frankly, this is nuts, and this arms race which you now describe is nuts. Strict gun control is the only answer.
2
Ms. Goldberg, it is irresponsible to claim that Black men in the 1960s and 1970s "fetishized" guns. The Black Panther Party for Self Defense carried guns legally as a means of defense against police brutality in their community. They were resisting state-sanctioned violence. It was not an irrational obsession (a fetish).
Self defense appears to be the reason for a few on the left taking up arms. But let's have some proportion here...it is not the same as the NRA, the gun and ammo lobby, and its gun devotees on the right who threaten and commit violence.
3
We have not slipped to the point of civil conflict, not yet. While Washington is mired in internecine political fights, our communities remain strong. That is where we should focus. Strengthen our communities and local governments. Build bridges across our divide by remembering what we have in common. I know that calls for dialogue may seem insufficient. But words are powerful and can be used to bring people together as well as drive them apart. Think of every good thing you've every heard from our Declaration of Independence to MLK's "I have a dream." Dialogue is the antidote to division and hatred.
https://peacealliance.org/join-the-civil-dialogue-campaign/
4
Globalism (NAFTA, WTO for China) sent 5 million American manufacturing jobs to China, and several million more jobs to Mexico. NAFTA simultaneously destroyed the farm economy of Mexico forcing poor Mexicans farmers to move to the US to clean offices and butcher the cheap chickens sold at Costco to feed their families.
And Michelle still loves that globalism.
And that passes for compassion on the left.
2
@Frank
Rich American businessmen sent those factories and jobs to Mexico and China, not "globalism." And it was Monsanto et al that have been destroying small farmers the world over. But Trump in his brilliance just gave those same businessmen and their companies a huge tax cut. Me. I'm still waiting for the promised infrastructure improvements, better and cheaper medical care for all and wage raises for the lower income workers that aren't immediately eaten up by inflation.
3
@Frank You can thank Nixon's China trade policy and years of Reagan's union-busting and tax scams. Did you know that personal debt was once a tax write-off, and credit card companies' interest rates were much more regulated? Thank Ronny and company for outsourcing your jobs and financial protections; NAFTA is a consequence, not a cause, of the billionaire-centric policies of the last 40+ years.
So two can play at this. Two wrongs still won’t make a right but going down without a fight is not a good option.
I’ve been looking at 12gauge shotguns.
3
@RjW Joe Biden recommends the kind with 2 barrels.
SRA or NRA, it still puts money in the pockets of the manufacturers... exactly what the NRA wants.
This can't end well.
1
I have long pondered the irony of the right wing militia types armed to the teeth to defend themselves against an onslaught of the unarmed leftist peaceniks. As I intend to remain unarmed, I would expect any truly patriotic gun owner of any political stripe to participate in the defense of myself and my family as she would her own.
5
@Hal Just curious--why would you feel entitled to someone else protecting you if you are unwilling to do so yourself?
1
@Robert Thank you for asking that. I didn't make my point clearly. I hoped to express that if our 'militias' are ever called to duty, that the reason involves defending all Americans, and not for political or ideological infighting among us.
There is some history of left-wing gun clubs, and of the idea of individuals keeping guns at home for self-defense even while engaged in non-violent campaigns. I'm afraid that realistically this history shows that none of this has been effective. It's the old keeping-away-the-elephants logic: if you are armed and you survive, you can give credit to your guns, if you want to. The story of the Black Panthers should be a cautionary tale. And the simple statistics that continually demonstrate that people with guns are less safe than those without.
But the image of defense in the form of shooting back at the attacker, or threatening to, has a tremendous intuitive power that's hard to argue against. We can only hope that these left-wing gun enthusiasts will stay very small and marginal, and the damage they cause will be limited to providing fodder for right-wing propagandists. (Who don't really need fodder anyway.)
1
We're going back to the 60s---the 1860s.
290
@Bodoc
Honestly, there was probably better gun control in the 1860s. At least in Dodge City, you couldn't walk through town with a gun showing.
The NRA has too much political sway, and is fomenting fear in order to sell products, ans sponsored by Russia. It's the Fox News of non-profits.
15
@Bodoc
I'm waiting for George lll to show up again
and straighten all this out. And good lady Michelle-
squishy liberal and solid steel American intellectual
you be, heart,mind and soul.
SDS
1
@Bodoc
Nonsense. The blacks are no longer enslaved. And the natives are on reservations. While the rebels did not secede. And Trump is no Lincoln nor Johnson nor Grant.
2
Sadly, throughout history those prepared to fight have found abundant reasons to conquer and subjugate — or worse — those unprepared to fight. The cocky swagger and frequent threats of the far right indicate they feel that they will have their way with those who disagree with them, by one means or another. Arming yourself is a weighty decision, not least because having a gun in your home increases the risk to you and your family of dying or being injured by a gun. However, progressives should weigh how important their rights are to them. Young progressives should also consider entering the military. It’s not good for it to be dominated by the far right.
2
If weapons are in your house, violence is in your heart, and then we've pretty much lost any semblance of democracy in the country. You never want to pick up a weapon to use against another human being, never. The legacy of that for yourself and for society is a life-in-death of the soul that will haunt you all your days.
3
@MickNamVet
Some people in rural areas view a firearm as a tool.
It's not violence in their heart.
I have seen wild animals dancing in broad daylight during a rabies epidemic destroyed because animal control was 2 hours away. They showed up 12 hours later.
I have seen wild animals hit by cars put down. A firearm is easier on you and the animal than a machete. People with domestic animals at times have predator problems.
You are inside your house and a 350# bear is on your back porch.
Meat hunters.
The decision to aim a weapon at a person is the decision to kill that person. I hope that is stressed in weapons training.
Michelle,
This column is disappointing.
Implicitly condoning the injection of firearms into an arena of volatile political differences is not the answer.
3
The "non-violent" civil rights movement in the deep south during the 50's and 60's was aided by a corps of armed African-American veterans. Their presence was widely known if not widely discussed, and they helped greatly in keeping the peace. Liberals and progressives don't want to use violence or intimidation to achieve our goals, unlike the other side of the debate we discourage our crazies from it, but neither will we be helpless victims.
5
This is great. The right buys guns for hunting and protection from crime. The left is buying guns to fight political opponents. The liberal tailspin continues...
6
@KJ mcNichols I think the lefties are more worried about the Robert Bowers, Dylann Roofs, Wade Michael Pages, Kansas mosque bombing plotters, and the President who wittingly or not is emboldening their ilk.
@KJ mcNichols
Baloney. Go out in the backwoods in many areas and if unlucky you might run into a "militia" out there practicing and being "ready to fight" the government. It already happened with the tax and fee avoiding Bundy family in Nevada and Oregon.
@KJ mcNichols Oh! The creeps who openly carried to Charlottesville with their swastikas and Stars & Bars flags were going hunting! Thanks for the clarification.
Well if this 'triggered' more gun control...so much the better. I doubt it, since it is such a small percentage of liberals.
Then again, the conservative mind is primed for irrational fear...and that has nothing to do with proportion of risk.
2
I have been a gun owner my entire life. I used to hunt when I was young, having grown up in a rural area. I sort of got away from it because it seem relatively expensive and a bit of a waste of time. I had more productive and rewarding things to do. I don't mind that people hunt since the hunters I know are responsible hunters, say unlike a guy like Ted Nugent, who obviously has issues with his sexual orientation. He is like many overtly demonstrative "manly men" that clearly struggle to convince us that they are such. I don't know that my guns will be of any use if the fascists succeed as they intend. I still doubt that they would actual try anything since their masters are the corporations and if the time comes when they would attempt a violent suppression of dissent that would crash the profits of the countries controllers. It is the great weakness of fascists that they fail relatively quickly because they are necessarily inept. Unfortunately they also cause great amounts of damage and suffering.
Most on the right are fearful and weak even as they pretend the opposite. If they just know that there are liberals with guns then perhaps they will pause before becoming like the insane few we see acting already. They will have to wonder if their characterization of us as snowflakes is real. I suspect they know that it is a false characterization.
The best thing you can do is vote.
I still have my guns.
9
As an older, white male Democrat, the “squishy liberal” label suggested by Michelle Goldberg is offensively inappropriate.
Fear often drives people to do foolish things, and the arming of left-wing men reported by Ms. Goldberg is sad. It is a surrender to the armed violence being incited by President Donald Trump for the white supremacists whom he courts at every opportunity.
With each violent act we’ve seen in recent weeks, many of us – before details of each event trickled out – said to ourselves: “This is terrible! I hope the criminal was a white, right-wing, Christian American.”
The Trump G.O.P. is looking for excuses to justify its fearmongering politics.
1
As a young person in NYC in the '70s, my (single, very liberal) mom had a gun, and my close friend's mom, a self-described “black, lesbian, mother, warrior, poet," had a gun. The Black Panthers legally carried guns onto the floor of the California state legislature in 1966. The JDL (remember the Jewish Defense League?) put up ubiquitous stickers carrying a crossed-M-16 logo and the words "Jews - Buy Guns!"
There was nothing shameful, or unusual, about the idea of minority or marginalized groups defending themselves, back when "Do whatever you want, so long as you don't hurt anyone else" was a motto of the Left, rather than the Right.
Now half a century later, in spite of my support of women's, gay, and abortion rights, sensible foreign policy, and socialized medicine, people think I'm a Trump supporter because I have guns. The fact is that I will support some right-leaning candidates (no, not Trump) over left-leaning candidates, if those on the left support policies that would deprive their own grass-roots of their means of self-defense.
When I was a kid, Northerners (like Cheney, Goodman, and Schwerner) used to disappear in the South, protestors were attacked with dogs and fire hoses, and students at Kent State University were maimed and murdered by the National Guard. Anyone with any sense on the Left could see the need for self defense. Sadly, that awareness has by now mostly slipped away. Sadder still, that one thing may have cost the Democrats the 2016 election.
132
@Eric The left isn't trying to prohibit people from having guns but they do want common sense laws for them. Do you really need a bazooka or a machine gun?
10
@Eric Slight correction: Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner were from New York but James Chaney was from Meridian, Mississippi.
6
@Eric. Guns did not save additional Northerners who went South nor did they save many minority individuals who lived there. What has partially saved the nation was the passage of the Voting Rights Bill and the Civil Rights Laws and the desire of the federal government to support those laws. We now have a President, a Congress and a Supreme Court dominated by the political party that opposed every one of those laws and is in the process of destroying the right to vote. The Party talks emotionally to the public but it legislates only for the wealthy. Until Trump supporters wise up, the nation will continue to have citizens fight each other instead of fighting against climate change, lack of health care, environmental destruction etc. The nation has been spinning its wheels since Trump came into office. BTW - if you are disgusted and don’t plan to vote, think against. Every vote NOT CAST is a vote for DT and the Party that is out to strip you financially.
31
A government that did not protect its people but disenfranchised them was the impetus for the Second Amendment. It is not surprising that current US and state governments inspire threatened citizens to arm themselves. How long will it be before a state decides to write gun laws that like their voting laws make it harder for people of color to own guns?
3
@Cynthia R
At the time the Second Amendment was added to the Constitution it was illegal for the country to have a "standing army" and people were expected to have a gun and be prepared to be called up to defend the country in case of outside attack. That's why the reference to a "well regulated militia." Now we have an army, navy and airfare which cannot legally be used within the country although the current president has seen fit to ignore the Constitution and send thousands of them off of their bases and to the southern border area.
2
Driving on the highway I once saw a man on a motorcycle wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with a pistol and the words "Single Issue Voter". How much would it scare the NRA and much of its membership to see others wearing a similar shirt that said "Left Wing Single Issue Voter". Violence is never the answer but It's always better to negotiate from a position of strength, right?
1
Historically, gun control has always been about disarming black citizens, beginning with the postbellum South and continuing to the 1970's reaction to black militants.
Perhaps a significant increase in left wing gun ownership would create more support for reasonable gun control measures.
3
Glad to know about the SRA. I get it. I don’t feel safe. Trump has now politicized the military with their stunts on the border. He owns the local police. FOP’s first ever presidential candidate endorsement in 2016. Trigger up progressives.
2
S.R.A. and Redneck Revolt are only some of the gun-owning orgs on the Left. S.R.A. is a very small one.
N.A.A.G.A, the National African American Gun Association claims, I believe, 25K members and its charter specifically excludes racial or gender bias in its membership
(just as the NAACP did).
The Liberal Gun Club, a national organization, claims between 3K and 5K members. Its motto is "Libertas, Gravitas, Civitas" (Liberty, Dignity, Civility)
Pink Pistols is a Gay Rights gun organization and their motto is "Pick on someone your own caliber" and their logo says "Armed Gays Don't Get Bashed" with over 7K members.
There are other Left-wing gun groups, with Liberal and Progressive values but who support the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership but detest the NRA. Some are simply gun enthusiasts who detest right-wing politics that get more racist and bigoted. Others see, like "Oso", the real, rising threat of violence, and, also, that the violent right isn't nearly as "tough" in the face of resistance--they never thought lefties would fight back, or arm themselves.
Opinions on 2A run the gamut though most favor strong background checks and root cause mitigation, programs that work. Many are among the millions who own AR-15 type weapons, and prefer policies of identifying potential mass shooters and intervening BEFORE they carry out their horrible, murderous plans, to bans. A school shooter was apprehended in Kentucky yesterday as he was about to drive to the school.
3
“High Maintenance” takes on left wing gun culture in the episode, “Fagin.” The sequence, involving a revolver, a group of lesbian, feminist activists and a boa constrictor is one of the most hilarious bits I’ve seen on TV in quite some time. Check it out.
1
The GOP has a lot to gain and fear from its gun wielding base. That’s why it tosses them their guns while it robs our treasury. What happens when the Trump base and Tiki Torchers figure out they’re the cucks on whose watch the hen house was robbed?
The GOP will never allow an armed Left because the notion cannot be maintained that some pigs are more equal than others.
1
More fear that ends up filling the coffers of the gun industry; enough!
2
I don;t have a lot of problems with long guns or some of the handguns. I enjoy shooting the former. The problem lies in the anarchy and Amendment absolutism of the culture: the semis-automatics, the bloated magazines, the lack of background checks and regs on straw man sellers. If these lefties are merely extremist mirrors of the NRA rightists, then forget them.
70
@RDG
Semi-automatic means one trigger pull equals one bullet fired. Fully automatic or select fire allows multiple bullets to fire after only one trigger pull. In other words, a semi-automatic uses a different storage method, but shoots akin to a revolver.
Groups like the Liberal Gun Club and Liberal Gun Owners will give you an idea of what lefty gun owners are like, and as a member, I can tell you we consistently focus on root-cause mitigation. Poverty, inequality, violence, racism--attacking the fundamental social problems leading to these symptoms is a lot more effective than slapping bandaids on a tragedy and shutting our eyes to the precursors.
After Charlottesville, we on the rational side of policy can't pretend that any authority will keep us safe, and as Americans, tend toward self-reliance to make that happen. I don't think that makes us extremists.
9
@RDG
Before pronouncing sentencing on semi-automatics, and bloated magazines, try taking an urban rifle class from John Farnam, Mas Ayoob and the rest. Spend two days learning about them, and getting very familiar with how to run one safely.
At least then, you'll understand what it's all about.
@RDG - amen.
And may the lord save us from fools with guns, and drunks with guns, and punks with guns, and angry old men with guns.
On top of that, guns in purses, particularly ladies who carry a gun with one in the chamber and no thumb safety loose in a purse.
Or anybody who Mexican carries.
And then -- Florida. Just about every insane gun thing seems to happen in Florida.
Why didn't the judge in Florida give Jamie Gilt the choice of keeping her gun rights or her kid?
Why couldn't Florida decide in about two seconds that Curtis Reeves had no "stand your ground" right to kill an unarmed man when he shot that man right through his wife's hand who was standing between them? Really? Really?
The problem with the 2A is that it gives the dumbest and the angriest and the biggest losers the right to kill good people, and putting their sorry rears in jail afterwards is not justice.
7
The Second Amendment doesn’t lean right or left. So, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. An armed left is the perfect response to an armed right.
8
The long arc of history does not bend toward justice, democracy, and individual rights. It bends toward authoritarianism, which leads to corruption and repression.
This was the greatest wisdom of our Founding Fathers. It is the reason for the Second Amendment.
I’m a conservative and supporter of individual gun ownership, though I’m not an aficionado or NRA member, nor am I opposed to some additional gun control measures.
As such, I have always told my good liberal friends that they should become gun owners. They laughed at me…until Trump was elected. They aren’t buying yet, but they aren’t laughing anymore either.
It’s good to know that liberals are increasingly owning guns, especially those who are in vulnerable groups. I’m not afraid of liberals owning guns any more than I’m afraid of conservatives owning guns. I’m really only afraid of criminals owning guns, which they will always do anyway.
5
@John
So will you be spending more time in Cologne than in Pittsburgh? I would if I were you and had that option!
It's an old story.
Making us safer actually requires the active, diligent citizenship, working to make education better and communities safer, conversations with people you don't agree with to actually listen and understand where there're coming from, paying more taxes to train police better, create support for them & increase staffing, offering real help to people in your community who have needs and fears,...
But it's easier to buy a gun, than to build trust in a community.
6
If one changes the word "guns" to "nuclear weapons" and the word "people" to "countries," it exposes the folly of an escalating human arms race.
At the same time, it hearkens back to the real, original point of the Second Amendment, which declared that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Yet, it is important to remember that when that amendment was crafted, there were no "well-regulated" state or local police forces, let alone a National Guard, or the four highly developed branches of the military. As such, there were legitimate reasons for citizens to arm themselves, albeit with single-round, lock-and-load weapons.
Those reasons no longer exist as they once did, and suggesting universal arming of both sides would be a dangerous development, returning individual protection to the days of the wild, wild West. Surely, we can do better.
10
@Quoth The Raven
guns and nukes are not the same. nukes kill thousands+ at a time. guns can kill dozens.
looking back at the long arc of history, the time of relative peace from post WW2 to today is an anomaly... and it wasnt even peaceful.
humans kill humans to control resources. no amount of "kumbaya" is gonna change this, save for the quaint 1960s idea of spiking everyone's punch bowl with acid.
@Quoth The Raven wrong on so many counts. First, there was a standing army (it was called the Continental Army). Second, there were individuals who took up the cause of liberty themselves (not relying on the colonists' forces alone. Apparently, your history teacher forgot to teach you that each of the 13 colonies had governors, police forces and military to protect from the French and Indians. Third, a large segment of the soldiers used their OWN PRIVATE WEAPONS. The Constitution is a limitation on the governments. The men who just secured their freedom were not about to surrender their right to fight for it. Fourth, protecting individual freedoms will always exist as long as men govern other men. If you do not understand this then you are about as ignorant of our Founding Fathers as you can possibly be. Educate yourself. Facts Matter.
@Matthew It's all relative. While you may, in a literal but limited fashion, be correct, context is everything. Sorry to tell you that I understand it all, literally and figuratively. Equating the law enforcement environment of those long ago days to that with which you might be familiar is an altogether false equivalency. Equating the weapons technology of today with that of days gone by is ridiculous.
You missed the point altogether, but thanks for the snarky history lesson.
The problem is increasing lawlessness, fostered by the current administration and Congress and blessed by the right wing of the Supreme Court. Where there is no law, no consequences for violence, and increasing division and hostility, we are all at significantly increased risk of harm. It is more and more difficult to feel safe in our country. When I walked down the strip of cafes and shops in my peaceful suburban town and saw someone openly carrying a gun, I was terrified. When I went through security in a small airport after 9-11 and saw a 19 year old army recruit carrying an automatic weapon I was terrified. I should not have to be armed in order to protect the security of my family. If you want to see the effect of a lawless society walk through the neighborhoods in South Africa. High walls with electric wires on top surrounding houses, with signs touting "armed response" and guards in the entry. At the very least we should outlaw assault weapons and bump stocks, regulate gun ownership and prohibit anyone from owning more than one gun. Vote Democratic, the NRA owns the Republicans.
10
@Eero
only own 1 gun? ridiculous. a hunting rifle, a shotgun, and a pistol have very different uses. instead of being scared... try shooting one. its a tool just like any other tool.
for work i often shoot nail guns. some are powder activated! in theory, i could hold the pressure part back, pull the trigger, and kill someone with it. should we ban nail guns?
@Eero you mean like No Justice No Peace or blaming the police for criminals who get themselves shot? Perhaps you mean the Supreme Court finding "rights" that have never existed prior to the declaration of between 5 to 7 unelected judges? As for feeling safe you might learn from our Founders that any person who would sacrifice freedom for safety deserves neither. If you are so truly scared and weak move to a socialist paradise in Europe.
We don't have the lawlessness that major cities do because we know how to protect ourselves. We know our founding principles and live by them. If you want to take away my Second Amendment right than you should forfeit all of your rights.
What is described in this column is a dangerous direction that can lead to an armed standoff. Voting and education is the
right direction.
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It does seem like Trump is leading us into a civil war.
Anything for a "win" for him, even destroying the country.
But it won't be about guns. It will be a cyber war.
Our computer dependent society will fall into complete chaos if war breaks out.
I wonder what will happen at Fox "News" when their studio goes dark, as well as all the other TV stations.
Think of the airports, traffic lights, phone lines (wired or wireless).etc.,etc.
Russia must be delighted, as well as the deplorables.
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@Stephen: I don't know -- what will happen at MSNBC when THEIR studios go dark?
What will happen at Facebook, Instagram, Amazon when things go dark?
What do you think will happen?
Won't effect me much. I have plenty of supplies, camping stuff and lanterns. I have water, MREs and yup, a shotgun (never have used it, but it works). In my climate, we are used to blackouts! My heat is from an ancient gravity furnace that uses no electricity to operate.
I have lots of books I can read, and a battery powered CD player. I'll be fine.
BTW: thank you for calling me and my family "deplorables". That ugly HATE SPEECH is what lost you the White House, Congress, 37 Governships and SCOTUS. Please keep it up!
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If you feel unsafe, the solution is to move, not buy a gun. It saddens me to say it, but the nature of our republic (a collection of individual, and largely independent States with no legal impediments to movement) permits all of us to be surrounded by those we generally agree with.
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@AB it's more city vs. country now looking at voting maps.
@AB I understand and agree with you, but being able to move to a blue (or at least bluer) area is too difficult and expensive for most people to do without some serious long-term planning. In case of a real emergency, fleeing is often not an option.
@AB....where would you move ? Guns are everywhere in this nation.
The picture made me laugh, only because it confirms the idea that liberals are clueless about guns. I'm a liberal—but I'm also a hunter who knows something about guns. I just hope my fellow liberals aren't arming themselves for battle with bird guns and deer rifles!
Getting to the point of the article, though, I think it's crazy for people to carry guns and even to own the kinds of guns that are highly effective for human combat (not the guns in your photo, but high-capacity, rapid-firing weapons). The danger to self and family from having a gun is far greater than any potential benefit. Owning guns for defense is irrational unless one really does have a high probability of getting into a gun fight (and very few of us outside law enforcement, the military, or a criminal gang have a high probability of getting into a gun fight).
The real question, though, is whether at some point we are going to need a civil war to protect our liberties from the authoritarian right. If so, we're not going to have much chance of a good outcome if the war is a revolution fought by random armed individuals. The rebellion would have to be organized and led by a government or proto-government—as our actual Revolution and Civil Wars were. If the present crisis of our democracy is going to devolve into armed conflict, let's hope it's a conflict between progressive blue states and regressive red states and that blue states have real armies and the red states are defended by random guys with guns.
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@617to416 The battles will be fought (and lost) by liberals in the courts...not on some dystopian landscape. We have already seen the foundation laid for that.
Our best bet is simply to have enough outraged citizens that they show up REGULARLY and vote PROGRESSIVELY. In such a scenario, you can't easily overwhelm policy with SCOTUS activism (e.g., a socially conservative court is unlikely to rule against gay marriage given society's perception of that as acceptable).
The most 'reasonable' reason that that scenario doesn't lead to civil war is that MOST progressive policies aid the general population (Obamacare). So those who 'hate socialism' and the 'nannystate'...also have found they really like their Social Security check. They like rules against pre-existing condition exemptions. Just look at Republican politicians lying about their state on Obamacare (pre-existing cond.) right now in hotly contested elections.
The question is, will enough people get off their duffs...and show up. Civil war no...civic absenteeism...yes.
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@617to416 -- read the caption ... that's a gun store wall, nothing to do with the club.
It is stupid picture, in context.
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@Lee Harrison
I laughed when I saw the photo this morning too. Lever actions and double barreled shotguns. I'm glad I'm not alone!
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I have gone to shooting ranges many times and listened to right wing ranting and even had people assume that I am one of them. But I keep my secret safe, that I believe in a system of national health insurance for every citizen and that if gun owners are inconvenienced in order to prevent Las Vegas-style massacres, then so be it. But that makes me a hated "socialist " as so considered by heavily armed people in this country embittered over their perceived losses in the culture wars led by a president who feels I have little right to exist. An armed left should not be such a novel thing
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