So this is where the money goes that Sheridan then lacks when it comes to hiring half-decent upper school science or language teachers.
1
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Life saving work!
2
I worked in an all female marketing department. After seven years i couldn’t take it anymore. The endless drama and trash talk makes me now think hat women need to be taught these skills more than boys. The games and passive aggressive nonsense was so pathetic that I refused to even acknowledge it. Or I acknowledged it by shutting down and not making any effort to befriend them.
Women love to complain that men need to explore their emotions more. Sounds good, but in a work environment how should that play out?
Back to the office. Perhaps women need to be taught to shut down their emotions when working in an environment that doesn’t require emotions at all.
3
@BillBo
Sounds like you are describing a pack mentality that can equally exist in environments that are segregated. Toward balance is best in many work environments. I would think Marketing should be since it is targeting the population.
When one enters a workplace it is a microcosm of behavior and what the media has been reporting more and more is that sometimes, as you described, they can become unpleasant places to grow. Much harder to correct in adults as the years fix the personality.
@BillBo - agreed - women are competitive too - but as they tend to defer to physically larger and stronger males, they typically compete in more subtle verbal ways - as I see with tiny girls - 'we're not playing with you anymore' - rejected girl runs away in tears - kazow ! - a six word sentence has devastated that girl's feelings with immediate impact
in childcare I see rejected (less attractive, overweight, not obviously beautiful) girls wandering around alone looking dejected or depressed - having to find something to do alone - not happy - while the 'beautiful girls' happily pose together for selfies and draw happy pix - all's right in their world - too bad for the rejected ones ...
so men may be more likely to physically attack others - I suspect women are more likely to just use words - that are like a knife to the heart ... of other women.
I totally agree with this. Well said.
I thought that women teaching boys how to become men is why the suicide rate among young men has skyrocketed. After reading this type of trash I feel fortunate that I had men as mentors and not a bunch of toxic females trying to work out my emotions for me using some paint-by-the-numbers voodoo approach. I'd rather live in a cave than a petri dish.
4
Read the studies before making anecdotal statements. There are links in the above story that will easily bring you information that may be able to broaden your POV.
3
It’s sad that the only time we care about how boys think and feel is when we try to prevent “sexual and gendered violence.”
That the only time we care about their well being is to prevent them becoming men “who leave destruction in their wake.”
Men and boys need male-only spaces where men can mentor boys and guide their development, except, of course, they are all gone now.
While women have maintained - tenaciously! - their women-only spaces (women’s business clubs, mom’s groups, gyms, mentoring programs, college women’s clubs, etc.) women have also demanded access to nearly every male-only space. And men have yielded almost all of them.
Can you think of one major, mainstream, male-only space or organization? Even the Boy Scouts are co-ed.
After all that destruction of male spaces, it’s nice to see one being constructed, ironically, but not surprisingly, under female guidance.
Men and boys need to think about how we fit into a world where women demand equality in many things and special consideration in others, from big things to small.
How do we balance equal pay with maternity leave? Women voting and running for office, yet not registering for the draft? Who picks up the dinner bill? Who gets priority in the lifeboats? “Every child a wanted child”- does this slogan apply to men or just women?
Men and boys being happy and confident and able to articulate their own needs is a good in and of itself.
That it will likely lead to less rage and violence is just gravy.
8
@Serrated Thoughts
"Men and boys need male-only spaces where men can mentor boys and guide their development, except, of course, they are all gone now."
The idea of boy scouts and the like have lost their shine and you don't reflect on why? After learning about all the covering up of sexual abuse, just like the male dominated church etc.. So if you happen to be a parent what do you suggest a parent does when all this comes out? sign them up anyway and cross your fingers? Of course Good male mentoring is important as is Good female mentoring. My vote goes for the balance of the two. I would suggest that if those in this forum are concerned that all the great male mentoring organizations are gone they should ask the bigger question that is begging to be asked ....WHY?
5
@S. Snell. You are absolutely correct! My son and I were heavily involved with the Boy Scouts of America. We left after they let in the girls. Sadly, in the world today, almost any all male club or organization is under threat of having to accept females. This impacts all female organizations as well. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when the Boy Scouts decided to allow girls to join, the Girls vehemently disagreed with that decision. In a press release they stated the following: “Girl Scouts is the best girl leadership organization in the world, created with and for girls,” “We are the girl experts, and for more than a century we have provided millions of girls opportunities for adventure, inspiration, and valuable mentoring.” Why, why could the BSA not make the same statement and stay an all boys organization? The Boy Scouts of America NO LONGER exists. After over 100 years of serving boys only, it no longer exists. The Girls Scouts can claim they are a girls only organization and the Boy Scouts cannot? How can we let that happen? What a sad world we live in.
2
Most definitely boys and men benefit from male only spaces but not to the extent which boys and men reinforce the troubling effects of dominating Patriarchy, which subjugated men to half of the full humanity.
Look for the work of “Boys to Men.”
http://boystomen.org/ and an associated group The Mankind Project
https://mankindproject.org. Good work here.
I think of some of the most inspirational men I know - my Grandpa who fought to liberate Europe in WWII and raised 8 kids by himself when his wife died; my dad who is teacher, outdoors-man, married faithfully for over 40 yrs; my father in law, a chemist who is loud & sarcastic, a peace lover with a heart of gold; my basketball coach & band teacher who was 100% athlete and had tears in his eyes telling us motivational stories many times, and my husband, who works 60 hours per week and doesn't complain, and will snuggle & talk with his own boys every night. These men are all complex, caring, hard working men with integrity. They all have emotions and might not show them ALL the time, but they all express themselves and aren't afraid to be authentic. I think men who are in touch with their beliefs, thoughts and feelings are the men who are successful and inspirational. It isn't a zero sum game. As my dad says, you have to "Stand for something or you'll fall for anything" and you have to have a moral code, which involves thinking and feeling. I applaud these various groups working with boys - the studies, boys and results speak for themselves. The weird comments on this article come across as pathetic, from men who are probably insecure in themselves.
7
women can't teach boys how to be men. never going to happen. this will do more harm than good - it'll teach the boys to act like girls
boys need to become men. teach them stoicism
6
Some of the comments by men (?) about soyboys and feminized males, etc. would be funny if they were not so sad. Incredible that men could get so far from their feeling and emotions. These guys are so far wrong they can't even see that there is a right. I hope they don't father any sons. The world doesn't need any more of these cartoon males.
5
Do the words sophistry, stupidity, idiocy, and unnecessary mean anything?
What they should teach young kids is manners, and how to grow up being a civil and civilized person.
4
Stop attempting to turn men into soyboys. It's pathetic. Youth will remain as "youth", and they shouldn't be handled like an experiment for liberal ideologies.
There will be no (are no) safe spaces in any environment(s).
No modern work environment has an ethical "safe space".
I'm sorry to inform you of this. Even the most left-sided work environments will contain no such parameters.
This is because people will ultimately disagree with each other.
By conforming to a standard, you're degrading your argumentative skills; Essentially stripping away critical thinking as well, and becoming a machine to a motive of idiocy.
In retrospect, creating (attempting to create) this progressive left-sided ideology that enforces a multitude of stationary emotions will create a generation of confused youth and adults that expect the same repetitive behavior from everyone, regardless of what their opinions are, or what they output may be.
4
Creating this surface of vulnerability (especially in men) is like removing your immune system. You begin to become weak, and counterproductive. In this argument, it's practically against claim / criticism. You begin to cave in, start to mentally become weak. This weak behavior adapts into a antithetical, whiny, sniggering shells of a what a man should be; Responsible, Hardworking, and Dignitary.
With claims in this article such as "Many of the boys at Sheridan mentioned “feeling alone” because of the thoughts and feelings they couldn’t express without being “judged” or, worse, bullied." I would have assumed that the writer would have been aware the content was antipodal. You get this atmosphere of "I'm being bullied. Feel bad for me. I need to run away from what's bothering me, instead of facing up to it and overcoming it". Again, they don't accompany too well with the agenda of promoting a societal injunction of vulnerable individuals.
2
Something not taken into account, here, is that boys are learning to become men. Men, therefore, need to be their role models, not women. Just like it would be odd to have grown men teaching little girls how to be women, so is the reverse. At puberty these little boys are going to start experiencing emotions and desires that women have no clue about. They are going to need to stand up to their male peers, because men are just wired to be, with puberty, assertive to protect themselves and those they care for. The “skills” they are being taught by these women will not help them, and will actually harm them as they move into manhood. They may be happier boys, but they will become conflicted, troubled, and ultimately failed men. If these feminine values are successfully instilled in these male children, we will probably, over time, see their rates of depression and suicide increase.
5
@Prez
Depression is already rising in youth and it is more likely from social media, cyber bullying and cyber extortion.
Communication skills at a younger age helps them grow into confident teens.
Which makes them less likely to be taken advantage of which will help to avoid depression and suicide. Seems to me THAT is what is important in this message.
I agree wholeheartedly. But I think women need to be taught these skills as well.
@BillBo
Fine, women and men both need to learn these skills if they did not learn them when they were young. I doubt many would dispute that fact. However the article is about boys, not girls and not women or men. It is about boys that may have never had the opportunity due to familial circumstances. It is about offering them the opportunity to explore without judgement. It is about helping youth and maybe even heading them of at the pass, that unknown early fork in the road that we all cross. It is about empowering boys. I don't know but that is what I got from this article but from what I read here it seems other things are being read into it. Good luck to people trying to start programs to help youth these days! Quite a gauntlet.
They're castrating these kid's future romance prospects. These kids are going to be miserable as adults because women will treat them like door mats, if not completely ignore them. Even feminists do not want a feminized male.
There is very little sympathy or pity for men in society. Sympathy/Pity is strictly a feminine privilege. If a man cries in public, he doesn't elicit sympathy, he elicits revulsion in women, and contempt in men.
Emotional men are not wanted, especially not by women. Women look to men to act as a stabilizing force, requiring the man to act as a "rock in the storm" or "pressure valve" as she goes on an emotional tirade to de-stress herself. If a man can handle his own emotions, as well as hers, she'll find that attractive. Women require either aggressive action to reassure them, or stoic unwavering to calm them.
Any man however that has to confide his emotions to her and lean on her, will look like a mess to her, which makes the man very unattractive to the woman.
Women, do not try teaching boys on how to be a man. You have no idea. How men act around women, and how men act around men, is very different. A woman only sees what a man portrays. She does not understand the why or the how, thus she is ignorant to a man’s inner-workings. Women only ever see the end product, not what it took to create. Only a man can teach a boy on how to be a man.
3
@Troy
Excuse me Troy, but you could not be more wrong. Women (and I'm one) are looking for a partner, an honest partner. We do not need a "rock in the storm". I do not know how you got this mixed up, how you were raised, but I can guarantee that you will never truly know your wife or girlfriend as long as you insist on play these role games.
7
I think you need to keep in mind that men and women have been coexisting for hundreds of thousands of years with none of the prerequisites you’re looking for. Or demand.
What most of us men out here want to know is what are women going to do to help out and break down these walls?
Mow the lawn on a scorcher of a day?
Go check out that sound in the middle of the night?
First come first serve on the life boats?
Start picking up the dinner tabs?
So far from where the overwhelming majority of men stand it appears to be a one way street for us out there heading towards Raw Deal Town.
3
@Jimmy
I would jump at doing any/all of those activities, if men would get out of the way. Some men can't seem to cope when a woman opens a door for them; most are offended when I insist on paying my own dinner bill. We're more than willing to step up, yet you fight us when we do.
I had 2 kids. A boy and a girl
They were only a year apart and so went to almost all the same events. They both cleaned the house, washed the dishes and helped build additions to the house and Play sports. However my son is definitely Masculine and my daughter is defiantly feminine. They were both brought up outside of the public school system so dont have all the ideas that public school has taught to the average kid. They traveled to other countries, speak several languages and know all sorts of people. However they think that there is something severely wrong with their peers in the USA. My Kids are confident and sure of themselves. Honest and more than willing to express their opinion, yet in a tactful way. They are excellent athletes and when they lose, instead of crying about it they dig in more and make themselves better at what ever it is that they need to improve. They Want that first place trophy.
All these traits the average kid seems to lack these days.
What kids need arent more safe places from other students, they need safe places away from teachers who insist on teaching their opinions on how kids should behave and feel.
Get back to teaching math and science and reading and writing.
1
I read the following in the first paragraph: "Boys should have a safe space to talk about things that matter to us". My reaction is that often boys have had a safe space only for it to be changed because it was a space for only boys. The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) is one example. For over a 100 years the BSA was a great place for boys and it served them and their needs, then, sadly, they let in girls. What a mistake! In fact, the Girl Scouts fo America also agreed that it was a mistake. Just read their reaction: https://nypost.com/2017/10/12/girl-scouts-tear-into-boy-scouts-their-hou... “Girl Scouts is the best girl leadership organization in the world, created with and for girls,” the organization wrote. “We are the girl experts, and for more than a century we have provided millions of girls opportunities for adventure, inspiration, and valuable mentoring.”' So sad the BSA could not make the same statement about their mission for Boys. I read this article that discusses how boys need a safe space and I can't help but think that the problem is that when they get their safe space someone takes it away in the name of equality. BSA is a great example. The Boy Scouts of America no longer exists after 100 plus years. What a tragedy. I wonder what the counselor in this article (Phyllis Fagell) things about that?
7
@Dan I agree.
1
I suspect the Boy Scouts started admitting girls for survival reasons. I could be wrong but what was the reason? Surely a boys only club that teaches boy skills isn’t wrong?
The biggest challenge with this topic is the retaliatory concerns from authority figures. Putting "manliness" aside, how many have had parents who scolded or punished their children for having opinions they didn't agree with? How many people here are guilty of performing that behavior with their own children?
This drives the feedback loop that causes people to stick to generally accepted norms.
O man as a feminine boy I got literally torn apart by my fellow boys in elementary and middle school. It was so bad, I've actually selectively have not remembered so much of my childhood that I have very few memories at all from before high school. Mostly just snippets of images, and nightmares sometimes.
As a transgender woman today, I know I would have benefitted from boys not being so attached to Male gender stereotypes and uniformity. They find one little difference in you and then pick at it until it's a huge wound, and that wound sometimes never heals. If boys were just not so horrible to other boys, I think I may have been able to actually remember my childhood instead of suppressing it until I cant remember it at all.
Its wierd to answer people that literally I dont remember anything that happened before 9th grade in any detail. I'm only 30 years old and I cant remember 35% of my life.
4
Is there a class for girls to act less "girl" like? "Don't be a lady!"
At some point, we have to allow for differences between boys and girls. And yes, there is room too for those who do not identifying as either. But the idea that something boys because they act like boys always have is offensive.
Imagine this with girls- the assumption that they tend to show too much feeling. Care too much. Are too sensitive to what others think.
I think we would call it what it is: sexist.
Boys have dropped out and fallen behind exactly because of reductive thinking like this, thinking that does not value who boys are and seek to change them.
7
I agree. I think these lessons should be taught to parents. And the parents could teach their boys to be more emotional intelligent let’s say. And perhaps they could teach their daughters to turn off the emotion in situations that don’t require it.
1
A lot of the comments before this are short-sighted and missing the point. Nobody is suggesting boys become girls in this article. But there are multiple studies that show boys who grow up without emotional support and a “machismo” attitude are more prone to depression, suicide, failed relationships and friendships than their female counterparts later in life.
I would suggest the doubters, haters, and other “men” who are afraid to show or talk about their feelings to Listen to the podcast “Hidden Brain” and specifically the episode called “The Lonely American Man.”
6
I think the issue here is that there’s something wrong with boys and nothing wrong with girls. That girls have mastered emotional intelligence and boys haven’t. It’s somewhat annoying considering life isn’t 100% emotion. I don’t think it’s wrong for boys to have the tools to deal with their emotions. I just think it’s presumptuous to think girls have it all figured out.
2
I'm reminded of the quote - an amalgam by Richard Grenier of some of Orwell's writings - "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf". If it were up to the Progressives who propagate the silliness in this article we'd have no "rough men". These are the same people who are weakening our military by forgetting it's purpose - it's not a social experiment but a force built to protect us from evil.
5
Many of these comments leave me despondent. Why do so many denigrate the process of helping boys who will soon be men to become whole persons?
When boys disconnect from their feelings of vulnerability, tenderness, etc., they turn into the very men capable of sexual harrassment and assault. To all genders.
3
@Diane
Dear Diane, the basic and questionable tenet of this article is that if these boys don't express themselves with "emotional authenticity" they are (how much?) more likely to leave destruction in their wake, You are even more straightforward.
Yes, as mentioned in the article, honesty and morality - including not hurting others and especially women - are valued traits in men. As are the fact that they should be "tough" and "suck it up". These do not seem incompatible to me or to many respectable men I know, but I admit I do not have a gender studies diploma from Berkeley.
Boys and men do express their feelings. But they do it in their own way, as boys and men do. And it's not the way that women do. Vive la différence.
Better make sure that these kids have male role models rather than "safe spaces".
So is this a fact? Lack of tenderness leads to sexual assault. When I imagine what kind of guy sexually assaults a women i think of a man with a giant ego.
The big takeaway from this article seems to be that when boys feel safe enough to express their feelings they in turn report feeling stronger and more confident in themselves. This isn't a process of indoctrination but of allowing boys to be themselves and express their concerns without fear of judgment. The boys themselves report feeling better afterwards. What could any rational person possibly find wrong with that? And yet so many negative and woefully ignorant comments here. Such comments only reinforce the obvious need for these programs.
8
Sensitizing both sexes is important because it is widely understood that while some boys may express themselves less, and girls are more verbal ....albeit not always in the best way.
Separating them initially might be the best start but eventually it needs to gravitate to how you talk together boys and girls, etc, as human beings.
Just one experience here. I'm a single mom of a boy. From the outset I taught him kindness, respect, and the value of critical thinking. I got him involved in sports and other activities; some he liked, some he did not. From his early childhood he was curious about everything and alternatively loved playing with trucks, trains, dolls, puzzles, pokeman, bakugan et al, camping, hiking, climbing, and now (sigh) video games.
In preschool he noticed his closest friends, girls, got to wear dresses, so he wanted one. He wore it to preschool one day and had a fine time. Big deal. Eventually, he gravitated toward skateboarding, trampolining, and snowboarding.
Today he has close friendships with girls and boys alike. He is extremely popular at school. He is as typical a teenage boy as any you will find.
As a mom, I never presumed I could teach him to "be a man." But I could teach him to be the best person he could be, to put him in the best position, with the best set of values, to become the man he wants to be.
14
@Marty
Yes I like very much your comment « I could teach him to be the best person he could be ».
I think as a parent that is what we should strive for. Our effect on our children is for such a short time before the whole world takes over. A mother of a single child I wanted only that he gets along with boys and girls equally. I dislike the segregation of sexes, boys on this side girls on the other attitude. In this big world we need to see each other more fairly and equally. The earlier in life they are comfortable with this the better for society as a whole.
Sadly, I think many commenters missed the important point that spaces for boys to be authentic in front of other boys needs to be created. Yes, children are already taught the golden rule, yet the boys in this article still have to make that lunch program with help and with their buy in and support to each other. We should listen to the quotes from the boys themselves before rushing to judgment of the program.
Note also that the quality of friendship decreases and depression increases for boys and men who do not have these opportunities to not be judged. This isn’t a case of women teaching boys to be feminine or even how to be men, but rather encouraging boys not to alienate themselves and each other.
23
I’d really love to find out how these boys turn out as men. I suspect, ultimately, that they’ll be better off with these safe spaces, even if only in elementary school.
I think what’s difficult right now is the timing of this article. Right now I’d like to not read anything that could lead more people to support Donald trump.
I guarantee you that these boys will make rather poor women. I strongly suspect that trying to teach them to be women will make them poor men as well. At an age where these boys need to understand what it is to be a man, why that can be difficult, and how to cope with "experts" and teachers who wish to purge "toxic masculinity", a.k.a. masculinity, from society, they are being indoctrinated that they can only be happy if they think and feel like women. The testosterone coursing through their veins will never allow this. Were I better indoctrinated in behaving like a woman, I might choose to feel pity for these boys. My toxic masculinity instead makes me angry with the educators and parents who allow this cruel nonsense. If their parents hate men this much why not simply start them all on hormone treatments at age 12? They can have the surgery later. Indoctrination alone will only succeed in causing confusion and depression later.
26
Meanwhille, today in Modern Love, a high-achieving erstwhile feminist woman described how she divorced her feminism-embracing ex-husband:
He wasn't enough of a provider and protector to turn her on anymore, as she details. Instead, she decided she wanted to have sex with a traditional, assertive, financially responsible, high-earning breadwinner type.
So guys, don't get it twisted. I never thought I would be saying this kind of thing: Be emotionally intelligent, but that does NOT mean that the traditional roles are gone--as far as what potential marriage partners will expect.
18
@GenXBK293 Notwithstanding the lingering or unavoidable expectations of traditional masculinity ,there is indeed great value in emotional and social learning: identifying emotions, assertive expression, teamwork, civility, etc.
To the extent that extreme binaries of gender roles hamper emotional life for anyone--training is beneficial.
5
What of regional differences? Stoicism is valued in northern New England, regardless of gender. How do we account for that? Blunt and direct communication (perceived as aggression) is valued in the working class NYC of my youth. How do we honor class specificity?
17
I wonder how these tender mercies will fare when a quarter of these boys turn into testosterone-driven predators on the others. With, of course, tacit cooperation from those in charge at the school, particularly when the predators are also top athletes.
3
“trust, sadness, tenderness, patience, fear, insecurity, confusion, feeling overwhelmed and joy.”
As a military veteran, one who has seen the eyes of those who wish us harm, these qualities are not the type you want in your warriors whose job it is to protect you. First understand why we as a society have chosen an archetype to represent the male ideal opposite of these qualities, and then you will understand why they will likely continue to exist.
19
@Brad, Hello--respectfully, these are exactly the qualities I would want in our "warriors" or soldiers. Without tenderness, patience, empathy, and a capacity for joy and humanity, how can anyone deal fairly and humanely with others? Even if one is in a battle situation, humanity is still a valued quality or should be. The military may be the ones who do not value any of those qualities, but that is a problem, not something we should expect or endorse or that everyone agrees with. I certainly value humanity in men and soldiers, and good soldiers CAN be empathetic, emotional human beings too. I think military training in repressing emotions is part of the problem being discussed in this article.
17
@Brad - Or, we could hope that boys everywhere learn that fighting and violence solve nothing, and we can all lay down our weapons.
6
@daphne, I respect your opinion. And I must agree with you on this. However, I can also tell that you have never been in a combat zone. There are reasons why men have historically been employed by their societies to mediate armed conflict, and why a stoic disposition is a valued trait. I would not rush to call it a problem.
4
This is seriously disturbing.
Boys do not need a teacher / therapist asking them to examine their feelings.
They need a father who will model for them correct and respectful behavior vis-a-vis women and other males.
The sort of nonsense documented in this article will lead to the demise of our species.
42
I agree that kind, loving fathers are they key to boys feeling safe and healthy and then having the ability to grow into good men. For those without fathers, though, having this safe container to be a thoughtful, emotional human is probably a lifeline for many of these boys.
Not incidentally, I find it disturbing to again witness the false narrative that mothers are most important for boys. Good men as fathers is the key to raising good boys into good men.
22
@Frank J Haydn
Hello; I did not read the article as sayingi that boys can ONLY gain this insight into themselves and into masculinity by talking with therapists or teachers. Rather, the article was describing a couple of setting in which boys are invited to discuss and analyze constructions of masculinity, in spaces and places that in general do not invite this kind of analysis or self-reflection. The comments of some of the boys were the most interesting aspect of the article--the boys who said they couldn't talk about their feelings anywhere else without being afraid of being judged or bullied; the boy who said he felt stronger as a well-rounded emotional human being because of thinking about these issues. Mentoring was seen as important to some of the boys, but the article did not seem to say fathers are not relevant (not everyone has a father, we have to remember, and not all fathers are able to discuss the topics discussed in the article).
10
A lot of kids will listen better sometimes to someone who is not Dad (or Mom)—could be a teacher, a coach, uncle, scout leader, or friend of the family. Nothing wrong with more people in that loop.
5
Have you ever wondered how gender identity evolved? Was there some grand conspiracy or did it all happen naturally? Is deliberately trying to re-engineer gender identity a good thing? Do we have a sufficient depth of understanding that is necessary? Is it even possible?
19
@W.A. Spitzer. Hello--yes, many analysts, anthropologists, and historians have wondered and researched how gender identity was constructed (it did not "evolve," as it is not natural, but rather, socially constructed and made by humans). The findings consistently support the idea that gender roles were divided when humans began to form marriage-based societies in which control of paternity was essential to controlling inheritance, which eventually took the shape of capitalist societies in which control of paternity and inheritance, and thus of women, was also paramount. From these facts came many other notions about what "men and women are like" or should be like which are also social constructions. Women can be brave, strong, confident, aggressive, and even thuggish, just as men can be fragile, caring, tender, etc. etc. The idea that men must be X, women must be Y, is an idea with a specific history and is part of an artificial, socially made-up set of ideas about gender, but these ideas and expectations are nonetheless strictly enforced by social institutions. Thus we do need to analyze the ideas, question them, and sort out ways to loosen their grip on us as individuals, whether that be helping men not to see women as weak and inferior or helping boys not to expect themselves only to be strong and superior.
11
@daphne: all the evidence is that gender identity is a mixture of nature and nurture. Dr Money’s cruel experiment with the life of a boy who was raised as a girl despite all his evident male characteristics showed that gender is not just a social construct. There are some strange gender theories that need to be guarded against - both those that seek to ignore gender differences and those that seek to impose them.
That having been said, I think that there are potentially many benefits to this program, and as a boy I felt mistreated by being forced to suppress feelings and emotions. I find it ironic however, that this class is being run by a woman. Can they not find a man to lead it?
your nature also wants you to eat as much fat and sugar as possible and you are just going to let it happen?
“Treat people [and animals] exactly as you would like to be treated by them.” – Golden Rule (applies equally to men, women, boys and girls)
13
Hopefully this is a threshold moment getting us beyond toxic masculinity and moving us towards a more decent era. Perhaps the pain of so many women, and the unnoticed pain beginning to be shown in articles such as this focusing on boys, will lead to something better. But as someone who foresaw the angry post-Kavanaugh male backlash, and had hoped, futilely, to head some of it off, I have some two-steps-ahead questions I posed at a couple of forums, for which I didn't get totally satisfactory answers. Once you subtract out toxic male qualities, as they're so negative; and positive ones, as they're actually legitimately shown by both genders (leaving out the obvious sticky wicket there for now so as not to over-complicate things), just what do you have left? For boys (and not just them) wondering about identity, just what, if anything, does it still uniquely mean to be a male? When I asked that, the answer was essentially nothing. I was then asked: "What's wrong with that?" I didn't have an immediate answer, but it didn't feel right to leave it there. Is that what we want? At a de-escalation class, I was taught the best position to be in to try to break up a fight about to start is not in-between combatants. It's off to the side, where you could apply various techniques. Thinking about generations of well-intended men playing basketball getting in-between the fighters, could they have been that wrong? Now bring in the transgender area left out above. Am I the only one confused?
Why do you have such a strong need to find unique male and female qualities? Why do you need to keep dividing people up? We're really not that different. If you want something uniquely male, look inside your pants. Negative qualities should be discouraged in both genders, everything else is fair game for everybody. Just be a decent human being - how hard is it? And why should it be gendered? We're all human. If you stop trying to label everything and just do what's right and fair, that will be enough.
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@DH What is wrong with there being qualities that are uniquely masculine or uniquely feminine? Do you think there is a reason why there are men and there are woman? Are we supposed to be exactly the same except for some anatomical differences? Having children solved all these mysteries for me because I could see for myself that males and females, on average, develop very differently. That doesn't mean that there aren't some little boys who want to wear nail polish and a tutu and some little girls whose favorite toys are trucks that they slam together for hours, but it does mean that that's not the norm. Attempting to erase or deny all distinctions between the sexes does not appear to me to be a healthy and/or practical endeavor.
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@Matt Polsky
You sound confused; I could make neither heads nor tails of what you wrote above.
What I do know, without a shadow of a doubt, is that there is a time and a place for "toxic masculinity" as you call it.
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As the mother of boy and girls who go to school in a highly educated and economically advantaged part of Atlanta I notice that the girls are told that they can be anyone they want to be and act any way they want to act and it’s all good. Endless ways to be a girl. The boys, on the other hand, are encouraged to essentially get in touch with their feminine side and discouraged from being overtly traditionally masculine in their behavior. No surprise that the teachers are almost uniformly female and often have no kids and are unfamiliar with boy development.
I don’t like this at all and neither do the fellow boy moms with whom I speak. We’re all rather over the “you go girl” ethos which, again, indicates that the sky is the limit for girls whereas the boys are increasingly constrained and literally asked to be quiet so the girls can speak. I observe far more notably aggressive and over-confident girls than I do boys in my kids’ schools. I am trying to raise good human beings and I do not see it as my mission to turn my boys into quasi-girls.
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@Katie Hi Katie. I'm glad you shared this quote "The boys, on the other hand, are encouraged to essentially get in touch with their feminine side and discouraged from being overtly traditionally masculine in their behavior," and I mean no disrespect but it is something we hear a lot in our work in our talk with boys/girls and gender roles. If a boy is aware and confident with his feelings and expresses them appropriately then that equates to being "feminine" and to be "traditionally masculine" means to . . . what? To have a tough exterior? To be aggressive? To dominate? What it means to be "masculine" is exactly the conversation we need to be having because the "traditional" part is what is confusing our boys.
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@Matt Hi Matt. When I referenced boys being encouraged to get in touch with their feminine side I meant within the classroom. Developmentally, boys tend to need more movement and activity in the early years whereas young girls are acknowledged as generally much better than young boys at sitting in the classroom and doing desk work. As parents have become more competitive on behalf of their children, they have demanded that more and more of the school day for younger children be devoted to sitting at the desk and academic learning. All-play kindergartens are largely a thing of the past. That's now left in preschool. This disadvantages many boys from the start as, again, it does not correspond to their early developmental path. An active little boy who literally can't sit still at the desk is encouraged to be good like the girls (a quote I have actually heard.) If, by second grade, a boy is still fidgety and unable to comply with endless seat work, his parents will be pushed to get a psycho-educational evaluation with an eye toward an ADD diagnosis and medication. This country leads the world by far in the diagnosis of ADD in children and, no surprise, boys comprise the majority of those diagnoses.
With regard to older kids, aggression, dominance, and tremendous self-confidence, among other descriptors, used to be perceived as masculine traits, for better or for worse. Now those traits are far more apt to describe many of the MS and HS girls I meet than the boys.
4
I'd like to see the reaction to a report of s school where they have a program where a man is teaching a bunch of girls how to be model women. Lol!
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Thank you. So true. We would never hear the end of the outrage.
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@Abraham
We have priests and male religious authorities telling women how they are supposed to be. Our movies, television and advertising is overwhelmingly written and directed by men than tell boys and girls how society expects them to look and talk and act.
We have male psychiatrists and male college professors publishing so-called research that confirms their personal biases of how women should behave.
You have to be willfully blind to ignore all the lessons foisted on girls and women on how to behave so as to please and not threaten a man.
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Actually, that’s pretty much how it’s been for millennia. Think priests, imams, rabbis, headmasters, teachers and almost the entire Republican Party.
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"Perhaps most crucial, the relationship for many of these young men of color from disadvantaged, fatherless homes with their male mentors is central. Chapin Hall’s website says “the consistency of [this] relationship was essential to influencing who they want to become and increasing their self-confidence.”
This may be more important than anything else - that boys become what their fathers are - and in the Chapin Hall example the father figure is a great model/mentor.
What happens when the actual "father" represents toxic masculinity? The apple falls not far from the tree.
8
This conversation needs to continue with our boys and men. They need to take an active part in the conversation about toxic masculinity, sexual assaults, rape and domestic violence. I am a LMHC and school adjustment counselor in a high school on Martha's Vineyard and I co-lead with my female colleague a group called SWEAR (Stand With Everyone Against Rape) and this is a male driven group and we host a 2 day retreat where we work with our local rape crisis prevention center CONNECT to end violence to educate and empower good men to become more active. It has become one of our most popular student groups and is evolving to working with adult men, a group called MOVE MV (Men Opposing Violence Everywhere on Martha's Vineyard). Men have to take part in this work and they need to take responsibility for teaching our young boys what it properly means to be a man and that starts with encouraging them to talk and express their feelings positively. Being tough isn't an either or experience . . . you can be tough and resilient, but still cry and it doesn't mean you're a wuss.
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@Matt
You are clearly a very talented creator of acronyms.
1
The key sentence in this article is: "Perhaps most crucial, the relationship for many of these young men of color from disadvantaged, fatherless homes with their male mentors is central." You can't just tell boys to be good, you need MEN to show them how.
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Just what the next generation of “men” need...a women telling them how to be a man. Give me a break.
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@J Clark- Agreed. After the great progress we made on women's rights in the 1980s or any other great advancement in equality in our history, the ax grinders, finger pointers, rationalizers, intellectualizers, social engineer come in to pervert it. Read my post.
You are writing about a very simple topic that you are helping to complicate and/or skew to a feminist side by intellectualization.
Children should be taught in general to respect all genders, races, religions etc. treat them fairly, and be civil to them.
Ditto goes for specific arenas like the work area, social interactions etc.
After that let boys be boys and girls be girls. If that means a boy being more masculine or the opposite playing with dolls let it be.
Same for girls.
12
Did you actually read the article about what the boys were saying? Do you think it is beneficial to deny that certain feelings exist?
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@Paul and @Boggle below
But unless I read it wrong the article is not about the necessary human virtues in women and men (tolerance, respect etc) but about programs designed to teach boys in 7th grade "how to talk with emotional authenticity".
That conceptual leap is perhaps what readers have a difficult time with. It doesn't mean they are in favor of "toxic masculinity".
Perhaps helping some of these boys establishing ties with contributive male role models might be more to-the-point.
You are writing about a very simple topic that you are helping to complicate and/or skew to a feminist side by intellectualization.
Children should be taught in general to respect all genders, races, religions etc. treat them fairly, and be civil to them.
Ditto goes for specific arenas like the work area, social interactions etc.
After that let boys be boys and girls be girls. If that means a boy being more masculine or the opposite playing with dolls let it be.
Same for girls.
20
It would be nice to live in a world where everyone acted like girls. What need to I for aggresive, competitive, attention-seeking credit-hoggers? None.
If we were to get rid of gender as a concept, I think that would be the best possible world. If I were to get rid of one gender, I would choose men.
@Jacqueline: I have seen all the behaviors that you list among women, and I have heard women complain about them. Typically they are expressed more psychologically, but that doesn’t make them any less bad, and can be worse.
Let us encourage not just compassion and mercy, but also determination and commitment to do right, keeping short accounts of wrongs received and strength in the face of hardship.
I've felt for awhile now that this issue lies underneath a lot of the world's problems both from the past and right now - terrorism, mass shootings, pursuit of money over everything else, lack of empathy... even to part of our politcal divide in the US. (I see a lot of our divide as rooted in the neverending Civil War.) I have to also recommend "Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys" by Michael G. Thompson and Dan Kindlon. Incredibly important, simply written book.
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@Smokey Agreed. I also recommend Raising Cain. Sadly, there are not too many other books that explore the topic. And Cain came out (i think) around 1999. We can't talk about this as a society, for some reason. Lots of the other comments here by men leave me speechless... Its not about feminizing boys at all. Its about letting them have their own voice!
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@Smokey Agreed. I also recommend Raising Cain. Sadly, there are not too many other books that explore the topic. And Cain came out (i think) around 1999. We can't talk about this as a society, for some reason. Lots of the other comments here by men leave me speechless... Its not about feminizing boys at all. Its about letting them have their own voice!
1
There are good reasons for a man to suppress his emotional display. Emotions that suggest vulnerability make one seem weak, while aggressive emotions increase the risk of violence and have other undesirable consequences as well.
Learning to modulate one's emotional displays is an important part of becoming a successful man, something that, it seems, is anathema to those who hate the idea of masculinity and femininity.
There is a difference between the posturing machismo and unnecessary aggression so common in the bottom reaches of the socioeconomic scale, and making oneself appear weak and vulnerable as so many women do, but it seems to have been lost in this discussion.
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@Josh Hill I'll agree with this.
The lunchtime chat is a good start, but the dominant cultural programming contradicts the message.
6
This story was one of the happiest stories that i have read in a week of dark, violent, dispiriting stories. Just maybe there is a sliver of hope for the human species. If there is it starts in efforts like this.
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As a pediatric OT, I see a few parents who start the "man up" response as early as 3. Little boys are often more emotional than girls in the face of frustration and failure. Watching them shove the wider range of feelings down and only express aggression is sad indeed.
I use Dr. Karp's Happiest Toddler techniques every day to build every child's self-regulation skills along with patience and communication about internal states. Those skills aren't gender-specific; they are tools all humans need to navigate the world.
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It makes me so sad that this is the reality we live in, but so hopeful that change is happening. I feel as bad for boys growing up brainwashed into toxic masculinity, as I do for girls growing up victims of it. Nobody wins. We need to re-educate both the boys and the girls, and most importantly, the ADULTS in their lives who are perpetuating and solidifying the destructive stereotypes on both sides. These focus groups should not be the only safe spaces where boys don't have to pretend. Their homes should be, as well. And their schools. And their communities. Their world! Adults, listen to the children and work to make a change in your own selves as well!
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@DH..."brainwashed into toxic masculinity"....How do you know they are brainwashed into toxic masculinity? Do you view this has some sort of grand plan by an evil force? How do you know it hasn't evolved naturally? Do you think there is a difference between estrogen and testosterone? What is natural and what is artificially engineered?
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@DH: don’t forget the girls who are brainwashed into toxic emotional blackmail and violence. They are not just victims. Just because physical violence by a man is more visible doesn’t mean that the mental and emotional violence carried out by women (not exclusively, of course) should not also be addressed. In summary: we all have innate tendencies to sin, to choose self over others. Jesus taught us to choose the righteousness of God and die to self. All these programs are window-dressing if they don’t address the fundamentals.
@DH => Again with the toxic masculinity nonsense? Masculinity isn't toxic any more than femininity is. Perversions of either one can be toxic.
1