A very satisfying puzzle to work. I am still a newbie at puzzles and Thursday puzzles represent the upper limit of my skills. I am gradually getting better at deducing themes and this one didn't register until see+saw. I found the clues challenging but fair, and especially enjoyed why "typo" was the correct answer for one of my favorite 80s bands.
Had a nice streak going then neglected to tackle Thursday before jumping on a plane. Finally got to it at 11:45pm PDT. Finished at 12:05am. Streak broken. Sad face.
I loved the popup ad puzzle. This one, not so much. I couldn't get it and punted.
2
I know it's late, but that's part of my story. I was out of town all day and didn't get to the puzzle until bedtime Thursday night. Half an hour later, I had completed most of the puzzle (without yet tumbling to the nature of the trickiness; surely I was missing something), but as I'm an early riser by job necessity, I went to bed and tried to go to sleep. It was more than just the puzzle that kept me from a night's sleep. The irregularities of abnormal diet and missed nap time caused me a major bother, plus I just HAD to figure that puzzle out. Succeeding at last, I went back to bed and figured out I could fall asleep if I just breathed through my nose (never mind the ugly details; I'm OK now, but my wife thought I was having a heart attack). The only thing left was to come here to the blog and see how everyone did. Please count me as a fan of the "See ..." puzzle. How easy! But how hard to SEE.
1
Not every puzzle is a winner.
7
Ahhhh-HA! It wasn't till Act IV was Seen II that I could SEE THE trick. Nice optics there: Friends, roamin countrymen, lens me your specs... All clever, and it was only the balance of the SEE SAW that helped focus on what we were SEE KING.
Notably went astray with KELP before KALE, very likely because KELP is a SEA thing... You think?
A small bonus pleasure: ANIL K Sinha was a lecturer and post-doc in Genetics back when I was at McGill. An added frisson after finding ATEN in yesterday's grid -- Ray being a post-doc and buddy in Pharmacol/New Haven, who could mix up a mean batch of gløgg for holiday parties, and who needed enough flying hours to earn his pilot's instrument rating. What better reason to run out and fly over the Long Island Sound for an hour (with company) whenever the centrifuge was set for a -hour run? Thnx for the 2nd trip down Memory Lane.
Enjoyed the lively fill and the goodly number of quirky clues, though it seemed too long till I could see SAW relating to GOUP AND DOWN. Just don't give me a SLUG of KALE when we POWER SUP
Well. Nice touch that all the missing parts were SEEs instead of some being SEAs, which would have made things easier, I expect. It's no SEEcret that a bad report would be marked "SEE ME". In this case au contraire, I'm hoping the that it is WE who will SEE YOU.
MORITA MORENO
3
I still don’t get the TYPO answer
4
Tears is a typo if you meant to type Fears.
1
@Laura Now that I understand it, I think the clue is pretty weak.
7
I think it's brilliant. To each their own, I guess.
3
Worst. Puzzle. Ever.
13
My holdback was SCAM for fraud, and spent a lot of time wondering what CEM had to do with something tailor-made.
4
Sigh! I finished this, but I cannot say that I enjoyed it.
16
A completely stupid, unsatisfying puzzle.
10
Challenging! I persistently wanted EPA law rather than ECOLAW. But finally that cross on the ___Lodge just made no sense without it.
I was glad that I was "63 Across" and made it before deadline.
2
P.S. This puzzle remnded me of one a few months ago with clues like "Together with 7 down, literally, (meat of clue)." Anybody know the date?
@Ron - Maybe Sam Trabucco's puzzle of August 4, 2018?
It was a classic. Sam's a keeper.
@David Connell
Yes, that's it! And on a Saturday, no less.
Got 3/4 done then tossed it. Then pulled down the answer and tried to figure out the theme. Even then that was not so simple. A blogger here a long time ago (I can't recall the name so I hope I'll be forgiven) had a favorite expression for this situation: "Not in my wheelhouse". NOW I understand that.
On the fence whether to admire or do a thumbs down.
In the meantime, I didn't like the fill answer for 5D. That's a word? Similarly for 43D.
2
@Dr W
"Telecom" is indeed a word (a neologism?), short for "telecommunications."
"Snarfed" has been debated in an earlier puzzle. Many preferred "scarfed."
4
Props, Mr. Fogerty. Though confounding, taught me a new way to SEE a puzzle.
2
The problems with the Comments section are getting annoying. I posted a few replies, then my CiC. I got a rash of email notifications that my comments had been accepted. I clicked on "View your comment."
For most of them, nada.
I'm not a nasty person, and my comments/replies weren't nasty. I left replies applauding and agreeing with Lewis and Viv. I left another building on a comment by MOL. I left a welcome to a newbie.
I went so far as to review the whole comment section to see if my replies were visible there, even if not through the link in the notification email. Nope.
Something like this happened a couple of days ago, and the missing replies showed up a day or two later. This is not conducive to friendly conversation.
I'm annoyed.
(But I still loved today's puzzle.)
4
@Deadline - Whole conversations appeared and later disappeared today. I agree that it is getting discouraging!
4
@David Connell
Thanks David. Glad I'm not alone.
Actually, I'm not glad at all. As unpleasant as it is for me, I don't want any of my fellow WPers to experience the same unpleasantness.
Since I didn't see anyone post, thought I would share a fast Bee recap:
6-C [two x 4; three x 5; one x 6]
5-M [one x 4; one x 5; one x 6; one x 7; one x 9-pangram]
11-P [five x 4; five x 5; one x six]
6-R [ three x 4; one x 5; two x 6]
28 words; 114 points
My Queen Bee word was a more recent 6 letter term used for chick flicks--shocked that was allowed and not COIR.
5
@Healthy Nurse, in a number of SBee runs where they were a possibility, both COIR and COPRA have regularly been disallowed. Apparently, the Bee production unit has no interest in coconut byproducts. So far...
Re Spelling Bee: Today CORM and COIR should have been accepted but weren't. What does the NYT have against gardeners?
2
@Lorel
I've thought the very same. LENTEN (rose), NEPETA & CORM are all regularly rejected. Last time I checked, bees were fans of gardens.
1
My only objection is to that Q. It nearly broke my tablet (because I nearly tossed the thing out the window).
1
My experience of this puzzle was similar to that of many commenters, frustration at not getting the theme before solving it. However upon reflection, that frustration dissolved upon realizing that all the themes involve a species of equivocation. To me, it’s a life lesson never to stop trying to imagine how someone is trying to fool you. Especially in the current political ERA.
This affords me the consolation that I’m not wasting my time!
6
This puzzle made me seeTHE for quite awhile. And the seeKING of fill almost caused AGITA. Okay, I SCREAMED. I’m not confirming anything but there may have been a wee bit of seePAGE.
I’m no WEENIE, but not BRAVE enough to find a counter weight for my seeSAW. Not after I ScARFED my NOCARB diet.
;-/
8
Brilliant! (Amazing to me that an earlier comment deriding the puzzle had *32* Reco's as of this writing. To each his own!)
Went to bed last night obsessed with the nonsense of the top two cross-references. Today, didn't catch on to the trick until I had SAW and GOUPANDOWN. Eureka! All the other themers now made sense and I finished, but no happy music.
Was sure problem was with the N in ONMIKE (the cross was a no-know). Tried all consonants but nothing worked, so checked the puzzle for some other error. Found nothing. Googled other unknowns just to check, but all were fine. In desparation, after about 15 mins., checked the spelling of 49D where I had WiENIE. Doh! (Another of my frequent misspellings of *down* entries!)
So POWERSUP today after POWEREDON yesterday, ENT both days, and TETES reappearing so soon. Also, the controversial SNARFED!
No-knows: LIAM, IRENE, AGITA, SCUT, SHAW (as clued), and NEU.
Another toughie (after yesterday's "Thursday" puzzle), but worth it. More, Mr. Fogarty!
6
Put me in the bravo! camp.
Didn't even have enough to get confused about in the first one, since I didn't have PAGE. I didn't have much at all in NW at first, because of the unknown (to me) actor at 1A.
But plugged along, went back and filled in, the usual stuff. And found myself very very confused indeed. It took three or four post-solve relooks at the themers, each look trying a different type of hidden trick that didn't work. Finally, I spent a little more time on SAW, and that's what I did. So my moment was more or less Ahh?-Ahh?-Ahh?-HA!!! So very very satisfying.
I see we are still SNARFing instead of SCARFing. I'll believe it when I hear it in real life. Unlikely.
With only the P showing, I thought maybe Sandra Denton's stage name was PINK. Certainly didn't know AKON. My brain got hung up on Stella Adler before I remembered IRENE. Couldn't remember Pat MORITA's last name. At least SHAW was a gimme.
The clue for TYPO was great! As was the one for BROMANCE, although I'm still coming to terms with that word. I'm getting better, though, and may even come to like it.
And I learned something about Ping-Pong today. Doubt I'll use the info anytime soon though.
Thanks to all. I really loved this one.
8
@Deadline
Agree that the clue for TYPO was masterful!
I found this as annoying and nonsensical as last week's "gem." If these are intended to be clever, I'm sorry to say they've missed their mark.
11
@jaded
Annoying, maybe. Nonsensical, I disagree. There was logic and sense behind the theme. It was just very difficult to discover. Might you have felt differently if you had discovered the "trick"?
2
Two days in a row...finish the puzzle pretty well, but I have to turn to Wordplay to figure it out the 'trick'. Too me that is not good constructing. PB
14
Meh. Finished, but never sussed the theme. And Faqir? Never saw it before, though I guess its a recognized variation.
7
@henge
According to MW, "faqir" is a "variant" spelling of "fakir."
Those who enjoyed Neville's puzzle might like to try the Friday meta-crossword in the Wall Street Journal. The real challenge is finding the hidden answer that the puzzle hints at.
Those who hated today's NYT puzzle should avoid the WSJ on Friday.
3
@Jack Sullivan
Thanks Jack.
I'll see if I can get access to the WSJ puzzle without buying anything or being kidnapped by Facebook, as I was when I tried to get to the LA Times XWP.
You may have to set up an account with WSJ, but you don’t have to subscribe to access the CW. A pop up ad may seem to block access, but just X it out, down load the PDF, and print it out. (IPad user)
https//blogs.wsj.com/puzzles/
@Jack Sullivan
Thanks, Jack. I'll see what I can do. (desktop user)
This was a tough one. I still don't understand the clue for 45A - "Oft repeated words" and "SAW". Can anyone help out?
2
@Kristin Miller - a "saw" or an "old saw" is an oft-repeated phrase, an adage, something your parents / grandparents used to say:
"early to bed and early to rise..."
and the like.
6
@Kristin Miller A "saw" is another name for an adage or saying, i.e. bits of wisdom that tend to be repeated and passed down.
1
(Etymology footnote - )
The "saw" you cut with is related to the "sec-" of "section" and the "seg-" of "segment" - it's about cutting. (Also: dissect, secant, skin, sedge...).
On the other hand, the "saw" you say is related to the "sag-" of "saga" and the "say" of "saying" - it's about speaking; in fact, several hundred years went by before people started using "say" for non-human entities - "the sundial says it's noon" or "the cow says 'moo'" was nonsense 500 years ago.
Two different roots producing one letter combination in modern English (though "saw" = "saying" is clearly old-fashioned and dying out).
1
This theme was a little too much for me. I could have used even a tiny hint (like a punny title or something) that the standard cross-referencing format was being toyed with. I liked a lot of the fill here, but the theme was a drag tbh.
8
I like a clever theme as much as the next person, but this was a step too far for me. Disguising the hint as standard crossword jargon and giving the player literally no other clues to figure it out leaves one with the rather unexciting experience of solving an entire puzzle around seemingly nonsensical answers that intersect almost every area of the board. I think this puzzle would have benefited significantly from a title that helped us direct the way in which we Look Beneath the Surface.
21
@Alex
If you like a clever theme, then I really don't understand your complaint. You mention "seemingly nonsensical answers". The key word there is seemingly. If you tell yourself that there *must* be some logic behind the seemingly nonsensical "See 17-Across", then that is all the direction that we should need. If we can find some logic in that clue then we will have discovered the "trick". If we can't find it then we are stumped by the clever trick. Either way it is a clever puzzle.
5
I normally like cross referenced clues, but I did not enjoy this at all. The puzzle is hard and it must have taken a lot of work to put it all together. So, good job, and please don't do it too often.
8
I wanted to get mad at this one, because I normally hate it when I solve the whole puzzle without ever getting the trick. Doubly true when I then stare at the finished puzzle for a few minutes trying to see it.
But this was just too good to get made at. As we say in Minnesota, Hat's Off to Thee, Mr. Fogarty!
9
@DYT Same. I finished the puzzle and then just stared at it. I came so close to figuring it out--I figured out SEEsaw mentally and was looking for SEE elsewhere in the grid to see if it was there and suggested a pattern I could apply to the other trick answers. But when I didn't find one I got impatient and came here. Now I wish I'd kept at it! So a hat tip from this midwesterner, as well.
1
Okay, you got me! I had to read the blog to see the cross-references -- clever, but wow! obscure... I do have a serious quibble with Tears for Fears, though. The capitalization should indicate a proper noun of some kind in the answer, I think. You were better off with "rocks for jocks."
4
@William R
A typo for a word which is supposed to start with a capital letter can also be a word that starts with a capital letter. Therefore there’s nothing wrong with the clue as written. The fact that they’re all capital letters involved is a misdirection but not a mistake. Or a problem.
5
I still don’t get how Tears for Fears is a typo. That’s how their name is spelled.
3
@Larry Rosenthal if you typed the word Tears in a letter but meant to type Fears because you hit the wrong first key, it would have been a typo. You would have typed the word Tears for the word Fears...
This is an example of an American crossword where the theme pairs have a British cryptic crossword feel, but there is something lacking. The cryptic element is the word combination, but there is no pointer to this. The word combination becomes the "definition" element for the new entry, but this would normally also be made more explicit.
A full Brit-clue might have looked something like
"Cried to see 17A paired off"
....where "cried" is the definition, and "paired off" is the instruction to conjoin see+17A.
But in this case, to keep the clues consistent, the "definition" needs to be removed, which can be done with a question mark added to point to wordplay (here the definition becomes implicit):
"See with 17-across?"
At minimum, in the US style, a question mark might have sufficed, to point to wordplay.
"See 17-Across?"
That's still tricky and incomplete (IMO), but at least it point us in the right direction.
4
@NICE CUPPA But it's not really wordplay in the usual sense. If I had seen "See 17-Across?" I would have assumed the answer thus clued would *not* contain the word SEE...
(Having said that, I didn't get the theme until I started reading the blog and saw the alternate spelling for FAKIR, which I would never have gotten in a millions years. And this after having leaped to several Times-y entries, such as BROMANCE, AGITA, SNARFED...)
2
It's not trying to be a Brit-style cryptic, or even to approximate one, at least as far as I can see.
It is its own thing.
I did my fair share of groaning and grumbling about this puzzle, striving in vain to suss out the theme, until finally there came that glorious moment when the sun rose in the east, when the scales fell from my eyes, when the theme rose up out of the ashes, and I was able to ... (wait for it)... SEE.
I smiled from ear to ear and said out loud, "D**n!"
5
Wow, that was a doozy. I would never have gotten the theme.
5
Meh. The one thing that no one else seems to have mentioned is the obscure clue for IRENE, a name that shows up very often. I understand the desire to come up with a new clue, but a character in a Conan Doyle short story? Quite a stretch.
2
@Dag Ryen
Small quibble: Irene was not just "a character" she was one of *the* defining characters of the whole Sherlock Holmes saga. . . she has her own wikipedia page even! :)
11
Backing up RMP on this one - Irene Adler is the only, solitary, one-and-unique woman who got the better of Sherlock Holmes in the original stories and the remakes / films / TV series. She is by far the most Irene of all Irenes in the literature / video culture of the past 100+ years. She's the femmest fatalest. The quintessence of "the woman wins."
The sine qua non.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utwenXbh9hA
3
@David Connell
"femmest fatalest" . . . wonderful!
This was a tough Thursday in the bottom half of the grid for me. I had SCARFED for SNARFED and BBC for PBS, leading me to CAN (as in CAN-CAN) rather than SAW. Meanwhile I was wracking my brain for versions of "boots" such as KICKS OUT, etc. I finally managed to solve the puzzle but had to come here to understand the theme, which I now see was fiendishly clever.
2
@Krista
Same on BBC v PBS (I had the middle B in either case). I think much of the content originated on the BEEB and then was sold/licensed/broadcast by PBS.
1
Well that was a workout. Had to read Deb's column after finishing to fathom the theme, but this was still an enjoyable, if mind bending puzzle. I was hooked by BROMANCE early. Did anyone else incredulously write Epalaw before ECOLAW? In our house we love the saying "Un oeuf is enough.", so that also brought a smile. Thank you!
3
@Lizziefish
2 eggs over easy for me (no idea how to order that in French... web translations differ widely!)
3
@Robert Michael Panoff
Here in Québec it is "deux oeufs tournés". Might come in handy some day!
2
@Robert Michael Panoff
Here in Québec it is "deux oeufs tournés".
Very easy Thursday, without ever getting the theme. Maybe if "see" had been in quotes, solvers might have had a better chance. Best clue was for BROMANCE.
2
I, like Deb, finished the puzzle without a clue what the theme might be... I looked, tried anagramming, looked at pieces of the long answers, etc. Then, just as the constructor intended, I stared at the "See NNNN" clue and it just popped into my brain. It wasn't a conscious connection but more of an "I don't know, do you have to add "SEE" to the long answers because it says "See NNNN"? It was more a move of frustration than anything else.. Imagine my surprise when THE became SEETHE (for some reason it was the first one I looked at). Fun times! The actual puzzle was a fairly quick solve for me... good thing I didn't need to know the theme to complete it!
4
Ok I just finished it. And usually upon completion I read the column, then the comments. Today though I felt compelled to hurry here and ask, "what the heck was that?" Now I shall mosey on over to the DA and see what I missed.
3
Plain and simple, solved the whole puzzle without ever getting the theme. And it took 2 readings of Deb's explanation on top of that. At first I thought it was even harder, being a phonetic substitution, but then I SAW that it was literally the letters SEE that needed to be inserted. Wow! This will be a Thursday to remember!
7
Didn’t see the theme. Struggled through the whole puzzle. Didn’t really like this one.
So what? I learned new things, saw some lovely clues, and am a better solver.
I used every trick I could come up with to solve this. Started off on my own, then asked for help, used the autocheck, and even google. My goal in solving is not to get gold stars and streaks; it’s to enjoy puzzling, learn new things, and get better.
I’m not writing this because I want to convert anyone or to brag, but just as a reminder that it’s okay to solve in any way that works for you. There is no ‘right’ way, and there’s no ‘wrong’ or ‘bad’ way. There’s certainly no shame in finding alternate ways to solve a puzzle.
If you set out to finish something (ie a puzzle) and that’s what you do, kudos! Well done! If you enjoyed it, do it again! If it was hard, practice.
Keep doing it your own way.
30
@Margaret Fox Great statement Margaret! I think you'll find that most of us on the Wordplay blog agree with you. Solving is a personal choice, and of course the object is to have fun, not stress out. Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise!
4
New ideas, that’s what we’re here for. Not perfect, but inspired. And it brought me here for the first time.
14
@John
Welcome to "here"!! Hope you'll like it and will become part of the here! :)
3
@John
Welcome!
We'll leave the light on for you.
For anyone else irritated and ctrl-fing for "TYPO" to figure out what the connection is between the hint and the answer: the puzzle's author means you to read it as "writing tears instead of writing fears by accident," and the columnist here celebrates this clue by noting that T and F are close together on a normal keyboard (although I don't think I've ever hit T instead of F or vice versa, since they're on different rows).
Why the clue couldn't have been "Tears for Gears" or "Tears for Dears" or even "tears for fears" (not capitalized), I don't know. Particularly sour note in an all-around unsatisfying puzzle, in my opinion.
5
@Daniel I agree about wanting lowercase "tears for fears" on that one!
This puzzle was HARD.
I did enjoy 28D, though
Tears for Fears makes it harder. That's what makes it a brilliant clue. Hiding a proper noun by putting it at the beginning of the clue is a classic trick. This is sort of the double-reverse of that. I loved it.
9
@Daniel - It was a brilliant clue! If you're not familiar with the '80s band Tears for Fears (still touring, saw them at the Forest Hills Tennis Club last year opening for Hall & Oates), I suppose you wouldn't get the capitalization, but the clue works whether or not you know their music ("Sowing the Seeds of Love," "Shout," "Everybody Wants to Rule the World"). The band makes it a great misdirect.
1
A very tricky but clever theme, and solvable with some patience. My husband and I got seeSAW right away, glommed onto lookING, and could not make the connection to seePAGE. A little more hint would have been helpful. We enjoyed the puzzle and look forward to more submissions by the constructor.
4
Solved this in more than average Thursday time using cross clues with no idea what the theme was until I read your column. Cute, in retrospect. The rare example of needing to take a clue literally . . . . not something one is used to, especially on Thursdays. We are being kept on our toes this week.
4
Snarfed? Really.
1
I wish I could say I snarfed that clue right up, but I had SCARFED for the longest time. I should have known better. One snarfs up, but scarfs down.
7
I actually had SNAPPED for exactly this reason. You don't Scarf things up, you scarf them down, but you snap things up! It delayed me for awhile until I was forced to admit that something must be wrong and started looking for alternatives.
Loved the algebraic nature of today's theme, where the referenced entry is substituted for the reference in the clue! A chicken/egg dilemma for sure.
At Mr. Fogarty's suggestion I took on the very entertaining April 7, 2011 puzzle, which, BTW, contains a killer clue for OREO. Fogarty credits that puzzle's theme as an inspiration for today's theme. I believe he takes it up a notch, giving us all something to really puzzle over.
Still licking my proverbial wounds, having been snookered by a few recent constructors. Glad I was able to SNORKEL this one out.
2
Like many others, I got my aha after I had finished the grid. Pretty clever. I appreciate it but still prefer themes that can assist with the solving. Because there were big chunks left fallow without grasping the theme, it took me longer than normal to finish.
3
hated it because you got me
loved it because you got me
23
"Faqir" brings up the letters / sounds that belong to the back of the tongue / top of the mouth.
In middle-eastern languages, there is a distinction (meaningful difference) between K and Q - one is made with the back of the tongue in contact with the back of the palate, the other is made farther back from there. Kaph and Qoph, in the Hebrew alphabet, Kha and Qaf in the Arabic alphabet - these letters used to have a distinctive form even in Greek (Kappa is the familiar letter for K, the obsolete letter Qoppa was a feature of ancient Greek and still known as a numeric letter).
In Latin (and English), the difference between K and Q was no longer meaningful. Q came to be used only in the QU context, and K in other places.* Eventually, the derivative letters C and G were adopted to replace K. It makes a mess of this whole aspect of letters vs. sounds. When you visit the dictionary for "fakir" the first meaning might be "faqir" because it is the Q letter/sound, not the K letter/sound that is used in Arabic to mean "a poor person" / "an itinerant beggar" / "a holy person who relies on the kindness of Allah".
I had "fakir" as a first fill (gimme) for that clue, but easily and happily traded the k for a q when I saw the across. Is it an "alternate spelling" in English? Yes. Is it a 100% Halal word? Yes.
*So, acceptable Q- without -U- words in English remain almost entirely related to the Arabic letter Q - Qatar Niqab Qadi - I'll leave out the word that would get my post emufied.
20
I love learning something I didn't know. Usually that's in the puzzle itself, but in this case it's your excellent comment, David. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.
4
@Julia LaBua - I do appreciate your comment, Julia.
In Hawaiian, there are only 13 letters / sounds. So "Merry Christmas" famously becomes "Mele Kalikimaka" - because there is no s/k and no r/l distinction in Hawaiian. The same thing applies here: in Latin/Greek/English, the K/Q alternation is not meaningful. In Arabic, Hebrew, Persian, Pashto, it is important (i.e., it changes the meaning of the word if you don't use the right sound). So that's what's at stake with a "fakir" "faqir" question.
If you've ever met a person from another country and pronounced their name the way you heard it, only to have them say, "Not X....., X.....!" you know what I'm talking about!
For further study: the concept in linguistics is called "minimal pairs": do these two variants of the same "sound" produce two different meanings, or not? Bat, bath; bat, bait; bat, bad; bat, vat. These are all "minimal pairs."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEvGKUXW0iI
1
@David Connell, to echo Julia, lessons like yours are why I read the readers portion of this column.
3
TYPO was worth the price of admission! That was terrific!
When I had SAW and GO UP AND DOWN, I said to myself " a seesaw goes up and down! I wonder how the other ones are connected?" Hahaha on me. Thank goodness the column explains it so carefully for my slow brain.
14
@Lewis, how about (SEE)DING? I kind of see SOWED as a bonus answer.
All I'll say today is that this puzzle delivered in spades one of the best AHA moments ever. I, like many others, had to stare at the completed grid to finally "get it."
Brilliantly done, Neville Fogarty, BRAVO!!!
7
@Johanna
(SEE)DING -- Nice!
2
@Lewis
(SEE)DER could use "Common German article" as a clue to mimic the THE. . .
(SEE)MING . . . Chinese dynasty
Thanks, Johanna! And good call with SEE(DING)!
1
Just a quick comment. I really enjoyed this puzzle. It took a little while. Didn't SEE it until (SEE)THE, but then it was fun to use the theme to answer the rest. What I did not SEE was a reveal. Have I missed something? I think that is what this puzzle lacks.
The subtle reveal is in the clues "See..."
The clue for 46-Across is "See 45-Across". The answer to 45-Across is SAW. So "See 45-Across = "See SAW"
So the clue for 46-Across is "See saw" which means GOUPANDDOWN.
So all the info you need is there. It's just not in the form of a traditional, single reveal clue.
That said, I didn't see it until after I finished solving, but I did figure it out before reading the column.
2
@CS
Thank you Dan. I did get it after reading Mike R's "algebraic" explanation!
Enigma.
If you could breeze through this puzzle under five minutes like the Keira Knightly character did in "Imitation Game," you assuredly deserve a position at Bletchley Park. ( I think they could've written a better part for her latest: "Colette." )
TYPO was "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma." Clue could've been " Tears for...Gears, or Years or even Rears, with similar key proximity, and would break the association with 80s music culture.
A shout to Neville: WHAT IS YOU DOIN,' BABY?
It would also ruin a brilliant misdirecting clue, IMHO.
4
@Dan Not trying to be serious
And as my computer was slowly -- very slowly -- POWERing UP, I got it! Was coming here to find out what on earth was going on, and then I managed to SEE it. Whew! Sometimes having an old, slow computer can be a good thing. Because I was completely baffled during my entire, and very difficult solve. Would have helped immeasurably if I'd known the PEPA, MORITA, AKON PPP, but I knew none of them. Was tempted to cheat, but I didn't. Instead, I almost SCREAMED in frustration.
A really clever concept. Marred by the proper names. But some great clues -- BROMANCE being my favorite. I would have preferred my "Aha" Moment to have been mid-solve rather than after the fact. But at least I had an Aha Moment. Good, crunchy, imaginative Thursday.
3
@Nancy
Perfectly and succinctly put: "A really clever concept. Marred by the proper NAMES".
2
Second day in a row I hated doing the puzzle and had no idea how I finished until I read the explanatory article. Miserable week so far.
8
[I'm putting in a quiet recommendation for clicking on the link to Henry Hook's earlier puzzle referenced in the constructor's notes. Even knowing that it had a related trick, solving it was fun for me.]
3
Just when I think I have really learned how to spot the tricks that constructors use, along comes a puzzle like this one. No, I never SAW the SEE. Not a one!
In my old solving days, I would just have shrugged when done, but now I come to the blog to read Deb and the comments. Then the light bulb goes on and I say to myself, "Wow, how clever!"
5
Nicely done, Mr. Fogerty. I didn't cotton to the theme until I was basically done.
1
The negativity expressed here seems to be directly connected to one's inability to understand the theme. Entries are considered obscure and insignificant if they are outside of one's personal wheelhouse, (e.g. "who cares what Pepa's real name is"). I'm sure that if there were a clue "Stage name of drummer Richard Starkey" there would be no complaint.
Like others I completed the puzzle completely unable to grasp the meaning behind the themed entries. However I steadfastly refused to give up on it until I could make sense of it. I did not really consider it a legitimate solve even if the happy music told me otherwise. Unlike some others it was not SAW that gave it to me but KING. The "ING" ending agreeing with the tense of 59A had me looking for additional letters in the surrounding entries. When I did not see anything there I thought of LOOKING and considered LOOPAGE and LOOTHE. Once I found SEE and realized its relation to the clues I had a nice AHA moment and felt justified to come here and read. I was very sorry to find so many negative comments, as I thought this a particularly clever and puzzling theme.
32
Andrew,
Amen. Checking in from the road. Did Wednesday waiting for my first flight, and this one many hours and miles later. I liked it. Sorry so many people seem to be eating sour grapes.
4
If the grapes were even slightly fermented, they would be a "must" to have.
5
Since I started on the East Coast of this puzzle (and despite the FAKIR/FAQIR bit, a first for me) I caught on quickly to the secret addition of SEE.
My wonderful college math prof said his ambition was for his students to say, "O I C." He would have liked this puzzle.
Rappers and actors are always iffy for me, so I thought 2D might be AVOWAL and 3D might be UGANDA, yielding -AU- for the 1A name: PAUL? Back to the drawing board. My tip-off that my knowledge is passe comes when I see the tabloids in the check-out lane at Kroger: I don't know who most of those people are!
Hoping for a Return to Civility, at least on WP if not society in general......but I guess it's informative to find out who's not a friend, after all.
7
I wasn't planning to comment but after seeing so many solvers failing to get the theme, I thought I'd speak up for those who got it and loved it. It's one of the great pleasures of XWPs to wonder and wonder what's going on and then, bang, seeing it. Today was one of the most memorable aha moments ever. I was down at the bottom with SAW, having filled in all the rest without understanding the theme, and then it hit me. I double checked each one - SEETHE, SEEPAGE, SEEKING and SEE-SAW and had a moment of delight with each one. C'mon, oldtimers, put in a word for tough themes that are a thrill to finally figure out. And c'mon Will and company - let's have more like this!
42
@Viv: Thank you. I have been DOing A SLOW BURN as I read the spate of negative comments this morning. You expressed my thoughts perfectly.
9
@Viv I needed Deb to find out what the gimmick was, but that's on me, not the constructor. I could have spent more time trying to figure it out, and maybe I would have enjoyed that AHA moment. I'd like to see more like this one, too.
6
Hi Viv, I did say it was a great AHA moment, but you said it a lot better. I,m glad you decided to comment.
Theme added nothing --and reveal did not produce "aha". The clues were strained, so ditto. Lets try to keep cleverness on a useful leash, constructors.
7
@Skeptical1 Maybe just skip Thursdays. I thought the theme did add something, and can't recall any bad clues.
15
Why, why, why? Whined Tom wistfully.
Got the theme fill on the crosses as even after I read the reveal I still do not get, or better said appreciate, it.
We lack many ECOLAWs in WI. Sand trucks engine break as they enter The Shire resulting in unwanted noise reverberating through our gently river valley. A plea to move the no engine breaking sign out of the valley has fallen on deaf ears. Fine silica sand is found throughout Central WI as most was once a river/glacial lake bottom - hence the trucks. And, now the ever so lovely open sand pits.
Scarfed for SNARFED.
Thanks Neville
4
@dk
I didn't understand your comment, so I Googled "engine break." Instead I got "engine brake," and some equally confusing stuff about "retarding forces."
But I'm sorry about your sand.
@Deadline
I believe that "engine brake" was probably what dk meant. Large trucks in order to slow down, rather than step on the brake, will sometimes downshift causing the engine to greatly increase its RPM creating an unpleasant noise.
Put me down as one of those who never got it until I read the comments and I did stare at it for a good long time after I finished. Still a very clever and original idea and that's what Thursdays are all about.
A couple of look-ups and failed checks (FAKIR slowed me down) but that's typical for me. No real complaints but I'll pick a couple of nits: I thought that the plural of SOLDER was SOLDER. I looked at the answer history and with one exception SOLDERS has always been clued as a singular verb.
PEPA has appeared 9 times before - once on a Thursday and otherwise always Friday through Saturday. Only a couple of the Saturday clues didn't pair it with 'Salt' in one way or another (usually just a FITB with the group's name). Just seemed like an unusually tough choice for a clue for an already challenging Thursday.
No big deal on either of those - just nits, as i said.
7
@Rich in Atlanta
You should realize by now that in crossworld, unless a word has an irregular plural, like SHEEP, CHILDREN or MICE, you can throw an S on anything and call it plural.
@RiA
Maybe I'm stretching, but I think the noun SOLDER could refer both to the stuff you use to put the two whatevers together and the resulting glob between them. The first wouldn't want the terminal S, but I think the glob fairly be called a [Bond producer] and could get the S.
Cool. Just like some members of the family . . . annoying and you love them for it!
6
This one wasn't much fun until AFTER I read the blog post! Clever.
4
A groaner.
But in a good way.
Like many, I solved it without understanding the theme.
Was frustrated and annoyed.
Then amused.
Thanks.
16
@PuzzleDog
Yeah, it wasn't much fun at all for me. I POWERed through, but never managed to SEE the clue. What threw me off was "IN SEARCH OF KING." That made all kinds of sense when shopping for a bed. So, I never thought to apply "SEE" there nor anywhere.
Great puzzle!
I got the theme after I had solved one or two of the long ones without understanding at first. After that, knowing the trick did help solve the next few more quickly.
That's two interesting puzzles in a row. No offense intended to the Tuesday puzzle, but my English muffin doesn't remember back that far. Mmmm, English muffin.
3
Had trouble getting the theme also. What tipped me off was SAW and then I got GOUPANDDOWN. Aha, See SAW. Bingo. Then I got the others. Clever trick. A bit over my normal Thursday time but a fun solve.
well, that was different. Thanks for the experience. I enjoyed it, it was solveable although I didnt get the theme till I came here. Could've been worse, could've been the devil's rebuses.
3
My experience was similar to Lewis's except that I took a bit of a break after finishing the puzzle, had a second cup of coffee and then had a look at the theme answers again. Almost immediately I saw SEESAW, and what a great AHA moment and fun getting the rest of them.
I almost always enjoy the foreign language clues but I drew a longer blank than usual with the opposite of alt in German since jung didn't fit. It was ages before I thought of new being an opposite of old as well as young.
Loved it.
10
'...saw SEE SAW'....tee hee.
Hand up for wanting to put in JUNG, but quickly fixed.
4
Wow! Now that was a Thursday! Yum. I powered through the puzzle but still didn't get the trick till I read Lewis' post (does anyone else always read the comments before the column?). Brilliant.
Two favorite clues:
What may blossom from buds: BROMANCE
Tears for Fears: TYPO.
7
@audreylm
I had the same two favorite clues.
I also often read the comments before Deb's post, but not on purpose. Especially when it's early and only a few comments have been posted, because I want to see what people's reactions were, but I keep forgetting that Deb and Caitlin also have their reactions in their post, so I have to catch myself and go read Deb's post before I write my comment.
But if I were to take a little more time I would have noticed, for example, how the word "backpackers" is incongruous with the photo. They may indeed be backpackers, but at the moment, they are snorkelers.
1
Not a particulalarly difficult grid, but if i were a constructor and so many people couldn't get the theme even after completing the grid I would have to consider it a failed puzzle
5
pthththththffffffft
11
@The Real Dr. Foo But how do you really feel, Dr. Foo?
5
So... I solved the grid without understanding the grid. That is, I got it but I didn't get it. I refused to leave the puzzle until I figured it out, and then I got the first glimmer at (SEE)SAW, a continuation of said glimmer at (SEE)KING, and then, when I remembered the clues for SAW and KING, it was one of the best "Aha!"s I can remember from a puzzle, with a genuine shout of joy. This, on top of overcoming some wheelhouse deficits and vague/tricky cluing, made for a most satisfying solving experience.
This is not only a clever theme, but a tight one as well -- what other possibilities are there besides, maybe, (SEE)MING? Anyone?
Neville, you must have chuckled bigly when you thought of this theme and worked hard on making this puzzle work because you knew down deep that the theme was so good. Your effort certainly paid off, at least for me, and thank you. This brought a wow and was a wow that will be remembered.
22
By the way, I'm going on a short trip, and will be back on Tuesday. Have a good weekend, all!
2
I did not get the theme until after the happy music played. Took way longer to decode the theme than to fill in the grid correctly.
One of my quasi metrics for judging a puzzle is how many clues might end up in your weekly top 5.
That said, I did not see any good candidates.
On balance an okay, but not great, puzzle.
1
@Brian
I thought "See 17-Across" was a great clue!
Seriously though, "What may blossom from buds?" is top 5-worthy IMO.
Where I'm from, food that was eaten quickly wasn't SNARFED UP. It was scarfed up,
14
@Rod D typically scarfed down, I think....
4
This appears regularly, so you’d better get used to it.
@Steve L
I filled in SNARFED immediately. When things weren't working out right away I remembered that there was a similar word that people here preferred, but I couldn't remember it for the life of me. I guess it depends on where one is from.
As a few others have pointed out, there are many grumpy posts. I enjoyed the theme, though I didn't get it until doing 45 and 46 across. Each clue saying "see" was like the heading of a Sunday puzzle. I often don't get how the heading in a Sunday puzzle fits until part way through the puzzle or until after I have finished. I don't get grumpy as a result. I just enjoy the sensation of having been outsmarted.
16
The epitome of an annoying Thursday puzzle. There's no real connection between the see/sea theme and cross-referenced clues. It's just a random device without any clear relation to the rest of the clues/puzzle.
Tears for Fears definitely felt cheap, especially since both are capitalized and therefore read as proper nouns.
6
@Matt, I finally got why the answer was typo based on your comment. It just didn't click until you made the point about the capitalization. Thank you.
1
"Tears for Fears definitely felt cheap, especially since both are capitalized and therefore read as proper nouns."
That was the whole idea. Hiding a proper noun by placing it at the start of a clue is a time-honored classic. This is sort of the double-reverse of that. I loved it.
Then again, I loved the theme to. To each their own, I guess.
5
If you're typing and hit the T instead of the F, or the t instead of the f, it's still a TYPO. Even if you type a T instead of an f or a t instead of an F or a ... you get what I mean?
I managed to finish this one without understanding the theme. Like Deb, I stared at the finished grid for a long time before I could SEE the trick.
Very clever and fun.
13
SPELLING BEE. QB 28 words 114 points, 1 irritating pangram.
I had exhausted my insomniac brain readily reaching Genius (as if), but still no pangram. Maybe it will pop out faster for my fellow drones. I nearly quit, but thanks to word smushing, I prevailed.
HINT: Take an obvious root that is also a stand alone word and smush with any possible other word. Yes, the Queen took the word but I didn’t love it. When I looked it up, Merriam-Webster didn’t approve. OED did. So be it. There is a touch of 007 to it, after all.
10
@Liane LOL thank you--I have gotten to Amazing but still no pangram. Will let your clues simmer in my brain and try again later, or maybe just give up and call it a clotbur day because I feel quite happily sated by the Xword.
1
Pangram is clotbur-ish. I agree with Liane.
Table:
Tot 4 5 6 7 9
C 6 2 3 1 - -
I - - - - - -
M 5 1 1 1 1 1
O - - - - - -
P 11 5 5 1 - -
Y - - - - - -
R 6 3 1 2 - -
Tot 28 11 10 5 1 1
Hand up for Comments before Column.
I am at Genius+ (got the pangram rather quickly, just like this puzzle's trick) but really don't see any further words....of course, if CORM and RIMY were accepted, I'd be at 114....
If Sam Ezersky would like to stop by, I'll dig some CORMS for him--lovely pale blue and white irises will result...
I’m kind of surprised at the seething (ha) opinions I see here! Had trouble with some of the fill (I’m not up on rap, which figured more than once), but managed to solve nonetheless, while wondering what the heck the theme was. Then looked at the finished puzzle for a while and had a good laugh. Thanks, Mr. Fogarty.
16
IMO, the theme lacks the precision we expect from a NYTimes xword. For example we know that answers are in the language of the clue, and that plurals must be matched. We have an example of both in a single clue in this puzzle. However there is nothing to suggest that this theme is resolved by creating a single word since the answer does not then match the clue; it should be 2 words as in the clue itself. “See King” is the precise answer to the relevant clue, and the puzzler must take the extra (and contradictory) step of smushing them together to make a single word. It’s doubly confusing since “See Page” is a possible part of a footnote. There is no clue in the puzzle that even hints at overturning the convention of matching the answer to the clue. It’s unfortunate since the puzzle is certainly solvable without having any sense of the theme.
8
@Jon Mark
I completely agree. When I finally finished this one, I didn’t even want the cheery music to play.
So many grumpy comments... I struggled with it and was mostly peeved with DO A SLOW BURN which seems like an unnecessary stretch even if one is able to decode the clue as SEE_THE
1
Solved the puzzle without getting the theme. Read Deb’s explanations. What the hell? Who cares? Talk about obscure.
9
and Elke
As usual I printed out the puzzle on paper (Across Lite).There should have been a warning as I Did A SLOW BURN trying to SEE what's going on. But the SEEPAGE from all that LOST LIQUID from my pen doused the smolder.
I CAN SO say that I liked the novelty of this idea, but the inconsistency of the placement of the SEEs (two were before, and two followed the trick) had me SEE SAWing.
Noticed ECOLAW crossing ECONO , and rough spots for ACNE.
Am SEEKING my bed to dream of a theme less Friday puzzle.
@Robert
Confused by your comment. I make it that all of the SEEs were before the "trick": SEEpage, SEEthe, SEEsaw, and SEEking.
The theme is super cool. However, there are two problems: The incorrect space between "See" and the rest of the clue for each of the four themers and the widespread use of garbage and "who cares?" fill. The constructor and editor should either...
1) Include a cool revealer, e.g., CONCATENATE with a clue like "Link, or a clue to this puzzle's theme". That way, solvers could use the theme to get some of the lousy fill with lousy clues.
OR
2) Fix up the clues for MEER, PEPA, Jayhawker, "worker in a chamber" (Uh, "worker"?), "A Scandal in Bohemia", SCUT, EDGE, "Saint Joan", etc. to make them either more accessible or more satisfying. (I love Salt-n-Pepa, but who cares what her real name is?)
I'm not saying both needed to happen. But one of those two strategies would have improved this puzzle vastly.
By the way, I got "Tears for Fears, e.g." was TYPO but I think the constructor should not celebrate this clue. He took something totally awesome and made it pedestrian and lame. Just as Patrick Berry did on Saturday August 30, 2003 with the same clue.
3
Came here after finally giving up on figuring out the theme. Loved it. I’d be bored if I never got any puzzles that really stretched my brain and got me thinking outside the box, especially as the straightforward puzzle was fairly easy.
12
OK, let me try to explain why this puzzle was stupid. The "theme" is so obscure that almost no one will figure it out. And, it wasn't particularly difficult to solve the puzzle without knowing the theme. I was sitting there looking at my solved puzzle still completely clueless about how those pairs of words were related. I never would have figured it out without reading the explanation. Looking forward to themeless Friday and Saturday.
21
Thank you for typing this comment and saving me the trouble of expressing the same exact thing.
4
@Andy Amen. Getting all the "theme" answers and sitting there trying to figure out how they made sense with the clues before googling it and finding this self-congratulatory nonsense does not a satisfying crossword make.
1
That doesn't make the puzzle stupid, it makes it a puzzle you didn't like. Do you expect to love them all?
7
This is one of those puzzles that, even though I solved it, I feel as if I failed. It was only the second or third time in five years that I've had to read the explanation to understand the device.
4
i miraculously finished the puzzle (after a couple of tussles, like insisting on scarfed instead of snarfed, which is a new one one me), but i never did figure out the theme. until Deb explained it, that is. very clever, but i prefer puzzles that i can figure out on my own. this was esoteric to the nth degree.
5
A truly annoying puzzle. One of those where the constructor and editor have all the fun, then crow with obvious self-satisfaction about how brilliant it is.
44
@LJADZ Well said and agreed.
8
@LJADZ
Normally I would strongly agree with you, as I hate brain-twister-type puzzles. But this one contained the reasonably accessible seeds of its own solution, especially at 45 and 46A—SAW being connected with GO UP AND DOWN. And after you catch on to that one, the others are just fun to work out, making the rest of the puzzle fun as well, though it seemed a bit tricky for a Wednesday. I admit I never tumbled to the "See etc." clues as being part of the solution, but when I read Deb's explanation of that aspect of the theme, it just added another enjoyable fillip.
6
I never mind when the constructor has fun or is brilliant, seems to me like a good thing.
3
Didn’t get the theme even when I finished the puzzle, so I came here to find out what it was. I did get Pepa, thanks to having been a teen in the ‘90s. I liked that the next clue was French for salt.
4
@Danielle I did not catch that "salt" showed up twice. The constructor could have used that!
@Denn Salt showed up twice?
Thanks for asking. A lot. I solved the darn thing but didn't get the theme until reading your column.
3
Ditto that. Took me twice my Thursday average.
2
I didn't enjoy this one.
19
37 Down seems like a typo to me. Boots? I don't get it.
Should that read Boosts?
Think about booting a computer. No typo there.
2
@Laurie Hoffman Think about re-booting your computer.
2
@Laurie Hoffman
I don't remember if I picked it up from reading Dorothy Sayers, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, or Jerome K. Jerome, but for quite a while I had "polisher," as in this British usage:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/boots
1
Didn't get the theme until after I was done and stared at it for a while. Tricky to the max.
2
Took me forever to “see” the twist in this one! (But still managed a few minutes quicker than average.) SAW was the one that finally clued me in. So fun!
4
@Irene
Ditto SAW.
Yesterday's was tough - I completed it in twice my average time. Today's trickiness was in the cluing. I didn't get the theme trick. Somehow solved it anyway. Only learned of it once I came here and read Deb's explanation.
Loved the clues for TYPO and BROMANCE. And also TIL SCUT. I'm so often on the same wavelength as Deb like that.
1
@Wen
True for me, too!
@KEllis
@Wen I can hardly wait for the day when no one uses real words any more, just text write and speak. TIL. What will the crossword puzzles be like when we only write, and speak, and think, in short cuts?
1
@Wen Me too.
The theme for this one was *very* hard to figure out. Thank goodness for cross clues!
3
Faced with a challenging puzzle, we are BRAVE. We SCREAMED: I CAN SO! And then we SAW the result -- Mr Happy Pencil!
5
Can someone explain how "typo" is the answer? is there a definition to "typo" that I'm missing?
1
@JLin
I loved this one. If you typed "TEARS" for "FEARS" you made a mistake, it's a typo.
@JLin
TEARS can be a typo for FEARS.
It's the usual definition. If you mean to type the word "Fears," but you accidentally type "Tears," that's a typo.
1
I can’t wait to see what all the people who complained about the trickiness of yesterday’s puzzle have to say about this one,
3
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
11
I'm just so surprised. At least, for me, the actors and rapper were gettable from crosses....and the 'add SEE' trick was apparent within the first several solving minutes. (I worked the East Coast first, then kind of moved Westward. LOST LIQUID... Footnote info PAGE....and pop! The only suspense was waiting to see if all the remaining additions were SEE-worthy.