In fear of Democratic license or to say - "A marriage of convince," The power of ruling Turkey as well Saudi Arabia.
To quote:
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in
moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King, Jr."
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/topics/convenience
JJA Manhattan, N.Y.
When Erdogan, mass murderer of Kurds, is your moral compass you know the world is freaking hurting for leadership.
1
Shame on NYT for this editorial; clearly betraying where its allegiances are with respect to Middle East. A journalist has been hacked to death inside Turkey by Saudis and you are saying that Turkey is no better because it restricts media freedom. This is plain nonsense.
1
If the Saudi crown prince had simply wanted to eliminate critic, Kashoggi, he could have had it done someplace other than his own embassy - & import 15 Saudi killers to do it. If Kashoggi had been murdered anywhere else, of course we would have suspected the Saudi ruler, but it would have been conjecture, like Russia's attempted killing of th Skripals. What the Saudi crown prince was doing here was deliberately sticking his thumbs in the eyes of the leaders of the democracies. & that's why the leaders of the democracies have to reject Saudi Arabia for the time being, even if it means that Russia or China will 'get the contract' as Trump said. It is only by rejecting Saudi because of what the crown prince has done that we can persuade the king to remove him.
1
If the Saudi's have not fessed up to there involvement in 9-11, what makes you think they will fess up to this?
4
Erdogan genuinely won the popular vote in Turkey unlike Donald Trump or GW Bush. Unlike Putin or MBS he has not assassinated political opponents. And unlike Netanyahu and Modi so beloved of Neo-Cons he has not engaged in the serial mass slaughter of civilians in places like Gaza and Gujurat. The NYT could enhance its credibility if it noted these differences.
22
Nobody cares. The people in charge are using this to embarrass, threaten or cajole their adversaries - but none of them really care. MBS knows that no one will really punish him. And Turkey just wants more control over Yemen.
The only true option is to cut all of them out of the global economy by focusing on electric cars and better batteries. If Bush jr had done this after 9/11, we wouldn't be paying much attention to any of this . . . .
1
Sickening, this effort to muddy the waters in order to make inaction more saleable. "Erdogan is a scoundrel. Turkey is an unknown entity of dubious intentions. Better we stick with Saudi Arabia"- such is the false dichotomy your setting up. There aren't just two choices here - 'support Turkey or back Saudi Arabia.' You're overlooking; 'support freedom of speech and liberty by defending it, at all costs.
Of course Erdogan is exploiting this assassination for his own nefarious ends. But that matters not. The killing of Khashoggi, is the murder of free speech and liberty. It cannot, it should not, be condoned. Honest and credible action must be taken to hold Saudi Arabia accountable for this death, as well as the atrocities it is committing in Yemen. Doing anything less, in the name of political interests, is wrong.
Morals and virtues are immutable. If you overlook them for the sake of political expediency or because you choose the lesser of two evils, then clearly you are without morality or decency.
Your country began as a set of ideals as set out in the Declaration of Independence, a document which above all declared that the role of government is to protect basic human rights. The advancement of commerce or maintenance of geopolitical control doesn't figure in it at all.
Do the right thing.
247
@Mike Bonnell absolutely agree with you, and would add...no U.S. media should ever EVER forget to mention the majority of terrorists who have killed US citizens, in US airspace and on US soil, and who were not US citizens themselves, were Saudi Arabians. Not Iraqi, Iranian, Mexican, Guatamalen, etc, etc.
15
Ok “do the right thing”. Which is what, exactly? If you are aiming that at this news outlet, what are they to do? If you are aiming that at our illegitimate criminal occupying the white house.... well he could not care less about your platitudes concerning morality and decency. He has zero capacity and less interest. He’s more than happy to see journalism attacked, just thinks murderous regimes he courts and profits off of should do better at covering up their crimes.
And what is Canada doing?
1
With all due respect, Mike, have you ever once heard Donald Trump voice the ideals of the Declaration of Independence? Has Trump ever once put the protection of human rights above the advancement of American commerce?
The United States we grew up with is gone. We're in a brave new world.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
43
Ys, "an American evangelical pastor ... was released", but I wish the Times had seen fit to remind us that of the other 20 or so American prisoners in Turkey whom Trump and his "base" care nothing about.
4
And what is Trump's game? By imposing Visa restrictions on small potato Saudi officials, the USA is giving the Saudi Crown Prince a pass. The crown prince is getting away with murder (if not cutting people up). I expect a very strong advocacy of freedom of the press from you. I expect a lot more skepticism over the US complicity here.
4
Just as a 'nationalist" needs to explain his vision of a nation, the "brave" in 'brave new world" needs also to be defined in this context. I agree with David. Saudi Arabia executed a princess (or her substitute) in public, arrested several of the royal family and kept them imprisoned in a hotel for a time but this new strategy of killing someone in another country simply didn't work out. Perhaps they were following the Russian model? Killing Trotsky in Mexico or the recent killings in London. Or, they thought they could blame Turkey , their competitor and kill two birds with one stone. Mr. Khashoggi was reluctant to go home to be killed and they could hardly arrest him in the US. There is no logic to murder.
One of the elephants in the room is how Turkey might have obtained a recording of the killing. The four possible hypothesis are: (a) the Turks had the Saudi embassy bugged, (b) someone at the Saudi embassy leaked the recording, (c) the Turks have a back door in at least one of the cell phones present in the room, or (d) Mr. Khashoggi carried a wire (it was reported that he left his cell phone outside).
3
A little recourse to a long history: enmity between Turks and Arabs is longstanding. Just recall the Ottoman conquest of Arab peoples and lands, the crowning success of which took place with the capture of Constantinople--now and ever since Istanbul--in 1453. Nothing much new here.
2
It is hard to find angels in middle eastern politics. Erdogan, Basher Al-Assad, MBS, Saddam, the Iranian Ayatollahs are all different sides of the same coin. We are lucky to have a similarly unprincipled President who uses realpolitik to deal with this bunch.
2
I don’t think this opinion piece properly weights the crime. Do people regularly get murdered and chopped up in consulates? Erdogan/Turkey may be playing the game that every country in that region has to play, but what would you rather they do in this instance?
5
I pray Mr Erdogan is not now in the cross hairs of Saudi assassins, as seems normal operating procedure in many Middle East countries, and sadly, attacks of parties on Americans in America has been fueled by diversity dislike and actions that were once only found in 3rd world countries.Is the world mad? Where is a statesperson to lead us all out of this mess?
2
The crux of the matter is that Erdegan is up to no good and he has to be denied a victory.
The Saudis are uncivilized murders but what's new. Except we now know they are arrogant and dumb murderers. Erdegan is a sly trouble maker and wants to undermine the stability that Saudi provides in the mid east and is function as a counter balance against Iran. He cannot be trusted with anything and in addition Gives shelter to the Muslim Brotherhood,
US had to help Saudi out of the mess it has created and hold its nose to accept any excuse that will strengthen not weaken the Allies against Turkey-Iran-Russia.
2
@Syd Kaye..."the stability that Saudi provides in the mid east and is function as a counter balance against Iran."....Requires further explanation. Is that what you hope for or is that what you truly believe?
I very much suspect the motives for the passion the Erdogan has spent on this issue. Am certain he hopes to gain, if not monetarily, politically in the eyes of the west that has seen him for what he is. That doesn't mean that the Saudis did not murder Khashoggi; that almost certainly happened. But I for one will not be embracing the 'new' Turkey or it's leader as a result. He is a despot and it's hard for me to believe the west would ever recognize him as credible. Punish the culprits, but do not celebrate Erdogan.
3
Erdogan has control of all the “evidence” implicating the Crown Prince. Erdogan is not a disinterested party.
4
Claiming the only authentic story to be disclosed about the Jamal Khashggi murder mystery the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan wants two things to achieve: one, to win strategic victory over its regional rival in the geopolitical war game going on in the Middle East; two, to exploit the event for electoral purposes at home.
21
@Prof. Jai Prakash Sharma: Insightful, as usual.
2
Thanks for reminding us that Erogan is no saint and has ulterior motives for looking like a human rights defender... his own. Only he can get away with jailing or terminating journalists according to his actions. But he is not alone in that regard.
1
Erdogan also wants to convince Trump to extradite Fetullah Gulen. Maybe that is what he is holding back the tapes and video for, if they exist.
2
Trump could also be holding off committing himself to any criticism, waiting to see which way the wind will blow with regard to MBS.....if the prince cannot hold his position, wait and see, Trump will ditch him like a dirty shirt....
Haven't Turks. Arabs, Iranians and Kurds been at each other's throats for centuries?
3
Nice analysis. I've been wondering about what is really behind it.
2
I don't see how buddying up to Trump could help Erdogan. Trump has no friends, just useful people he can step over when he is through with them. Turkey's economy is in worse condition than the US can help Erdogan dig out of. Crown Prince Mohammed is integral to the US and Israel's campaign to start a war with Iran and so this will delay the prospective war with Iran for a while.
1
Erdogan has the Saudis, in particular, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS) right where he wants him. Out of the current crisis comes the opportunity for the Turkish leader, who has been on the losing end of a struggle for regional power and influence. And he has never warmed to the brash 33-year-old.
The two men have vastly different visions for the future of the region. Erdogan has been a champion of political Islam both at home and abroad, particularly since the rise and fall of Mohamed Morsi, Egypt’s ill-fated former president who hailed from the Muslim Brotherhood. Erdogan has partnered with Qatar, Riyadh’s regional foe, given shelter to those exiled after Morsi’s fall, and remained a bulwark for the movement that Riyadh and its Sunni UAE allies see as an existential threat.
MBS has been attempting to remodel Saudi Arabia, eschewing its deep links to the Wahhabi, Salafi religious establishment while turning his country into a nationalist police state, emulating Egypt.
4
"to use the murder to extort money from the Saudis to shore up Turkey’s failing economy in exchange for eventually helping to shift the blame away from the Saudi regime." " even as the Trump administration gave every sign of longing to look away." Mr. Trump seems more than willing to dive headfirst into the sewer of immorality by discussing the value of the business that the United States does with Saudi Arabia. No surprise there. He sees the scales of justice with one dead Arab in one pan and the multi-billion dollar trade with Saudi Arabia in the other pan. Money trumps everything.
If Turkey is trying to extort money then we have a new "Great Game". How will Turkey handle the national shame of extortion? What will the international reaction be? How much money will one dead Arab eventually be worth?
1
Finally.
It's about time that the Editorial Board started asking the bigger question - the rest of us have been asking for a couple weeks but have got nothing in return but anti-Trump tirades.
Now, do your jobs.
The Turks obviously think it is in their interest to drive a wedge between the US and Saudi Arabia - at this juncture.
Why ?
And with who, are they collaborating ?
A murder is a murder, and a state sanctioned murder is detestable.
But.
The Turks could have sat on the information forever.
Yet they did not.
It's a great blackmail asset.
Or is that what they thought and someone called their bluff.
Anyway, it's time for the Times to get back to basic investigative journalism, and get this analyzed.
4
Why haven't they expelled all the diplomats from Turkey if they are so sure he was killed in the consulate? Why not do like England and expelled everybody and the same with the other countries that expelled Russian diplomats? Why not a single move by US, England, France etc? They all expelled diplomats even though Russian kept denying what happened. The Saudis kind of admitted it and nobody does anything.. Funny "little games" they are playing.
1
We must not revert to the “greater of the two evils” (GOTTE) foreign policy strategy that we relied on during the Cold War, when the realpolitik was antithetical to our core values – so we supported friendly dictators in Chile, Iran, Pakistan, Philippines, South Korea, etc. for extended periods of time because it served our anti-communist cause. Some might say that the GOTTE strategy worked in the long run for nations like Chile, Philippines, and South Korea – all of which are thriving democracies today.
However, in the case of the Middle East the GOTTE strategy’s long-term results have been a disaster, albeit, compounded by our continuing with the GOTTE strategy on a selective basis (Egypt and Saudi Arabia are the two standout examples) after the end of the Cold War. So, when it comes to the Saudi Arabia vs. Turkey situation, let’s jettison the GOTTE strategy because Saudi Arabia is clearly the greater of the two evils. Also, Turkey is a NATO ally and does have a popularly-elected government. President Erdogan maybe consolidating power, but he still has more credibility than most Middle Eastern leaders.
Finally, as the NYT Editorial Board concludes, “For all of Turkey’s continuing troubles, Mr. Erdogan has now created an opening for improving relations” with the U.S. Let’s seize the moment and jointly put the heat on the House of Saud, so that it stops behaving like “a murderous neighborhood bully” and gets it internal affairs in order.
2
@Jack Nargundkar
Funny NATO member who cooperates with Russia against the West. Funny popular elected dictator who jails and purges opposition and visitors.
Turkey is more harmful to the US than Saudi and the US doesn't need the Muslim dictator to "create an opening" for improving relations,he just needs to act like an ally.
1
What is Turkey's "game"?
Is that code for "How can we leverage the mutilation and murder of an innocent Washington Post journalist?"
How about we consider the emerging Turkey Domino Effect? Trump gives the Saudis a free pass on murdering one of their enemies, an innocent civilian. A week later, a Trumpster thinks this is a good way to get problems solved. So, he/she/they send explosive devices to the Clintons, the Obamas and CNN, hoping to murder some people.
If our Con man In Chief had said, just once, that Saudi Arabia was wrong to mutilate and murder someone, maybe things would be different today in the USA.
3
Silly question
To make Turkey great again
4
Erdogan might have political and monetary incentives to do what he is doing but re-creating an Ottoman Empire? That is as far fetched as Putin thinking of re-creating the old Soviet Union. In the modern "flat" world, more breakups are likely than Empires! Economic Unions on the other hand, are more likely to occur.
2
Turkey is leveraging its assets, nothing new in geopolitical strategy. At least the reason has merit, a savage, heinous crime committed within its borders by a foreign power and not some egregious, trumped up charge.
More than likely the negotiations and compromise are between the House of Saud, House of Trump-Kushner, Turkey. Why was no U.S. Ambassador appointed to Saudi Arabia. Keeping it in the family?
Trump has gone to great lengths to build up a U.S.-backed Middle East bloc including the Saudis, Emiratis and Israel, and push the wedge between countries in the region deeper by denigrating, alienating and isolating Qatar, the Palestinians and even taking a veiled shot at Turkey in supporting the "rogue" team theory.
The House of Trump-Kushner is deep into meddling in the region, shaping the balance of power to benefit itself. Dishonoring and nixing the Iran Agreement, the best idea yet to move towards a balance of power in the region, is part and parcel of – what does one call imperialism and wannabe emperors these days.
2
So this what I don't understand .... didn't Richard Engel talk about the "apple watch" that Khashoggi was wearing which recorded the whole awful event like a day or two after the murder? Now that watch is in the hands of Erdogan? I want to hear from Mr. Engel please. I think he knows more than he's reporting.
It is easy to see what Turkey's President Erdogan's goal is in his desire to reveal the whole grisley truth of Khashoggi's murder -
1st: It is a good and noble for Erdogan to reveal the factual truth to the world of: Who ordered Mr. Khashoggi's murder? - What was the plan and who were the culprits? - Where did they bury Mr. Khashoggi's body?
2nd: It is clear: Erdogan's goal is to push Saudi Crown Prince MBS out of power and replace him with a Saudi 'spiritual' conservative who will maintain Saudi's 'spiritual' conservative regime.
Erdogan is on a publicity campaign fanning the Press and the International community to shun the Saudi's Crown Prince MBS - because Erdogan is against taking Saudi Arabia into a progressive, opening place -- women driving, movies, music etc. --
Basically, Erdogan intention is to achieve a 'Soft coup'
Why?
Erdogan is (sadly) 'single-focused' to taking Turkey backwards into Spiritual conservatism - wanting to mandate women to cover.
Erdogan aligns himself with MBS's father: King Salman who is Saudi 'spiritual' conservative - who Erdogan is of 'Like-Mind in Spiritual Policy'.
That said - if, MBS did order the grisely murder of Mr. Khashoggi - a journalist living and working in the United States - MBS is in deep, deserved trouble - if, this is true - what does this truth really reveal about MBS's character and Saudi Arabia?
Saudi Arabia and Saudi's Arab neighbors are being tarnished by this horrible murder ordered by someone: MBS ? -
2
What exactly is the dispute between Erdogan and the Crown Prince? Is it simply a mid-eastern power struggle? Who gets control?
That seems to be the case.
The role of Islam seems peripheral - Erdogan sees Islam as an agency of government, his personal tool to control his voters. The Crown Prince has a church/state division of control in mind - a rather Marxist view of religion as the opiate of the people.
Doesn’t seem to be something to get worked up over. For both parties Islam is simply useful, not an ideological commitment.
1
Whatever his motives, and I don't know what's in his head, he hasn't said or done anything he shouldn't have in response to this murder. He has done what any leader should do.
I sincerely hope the media will not become too fascinated with analyzing what game he may be playing and take focus away from the heinous crime that was committed and the efforts to bring the perpetrators to justice.
2
Your focus is already part of the game.
1
PBS ran an excellent special by Ric Steves last night about the HIStory of fascism and WW2. It mirrors exactly what is happening today but on a global scale.
The special was only an hour long so there wasn't time for Mr. Steves to explain how Hitler convinced the German people he alone could restore their war-mongering national pride then proceeded to use the results of their hard work to systematically convince other European leaders that they could not fight him. Those leaders were stupid enough to believe him and went along with him. They were victims of nazi propaganda against them and nazi terrorism in their countries to make the leader look bad. Their countries were then systematically taken over and their resources exploited for Hitler's demented "war" and attempts to take over the world.
Stalin and Mussolini were as brutal as Hitler and rode along on his coattails in their own power plays. Just as Putin, Netanyahu, Duerte, Erdogan, Sisi , Bertollini and other supposed "strong' men are using each other today. They aren't "strong". They are cowards who use their stolen wealth to try to control the rest of us.
Are WE THE PEOPLE - average people across America and around the world - going to let them start WW3 and destroy OUR lives again?
Not me. Not now. Not ever.
6
I don't think there's any more worthwhile united voice of clarity than the NY Times op-ed board. You guys call a spade a spade in ways few do, including at times, the rest of your illustrious paper of record. Imagine if a) we inserted the entirety of whomever knew everything about the Saudi's role in 9/11 and benefitted from that portion of the story never being resolved b) same for all things ramp up to the 2008 collapse and aftermath c) all things Putin and Trump, although I suspect you guys are about to play that card. Just one question, can you please be just as forthright in presenting what world are we actually living in? It might be helpful to have it spelled out.
4
Erdogan could care less about the death of a Saudi newsman except as a lever to twist the Saudis who he considers major rival of his in the Middle East.
3
Apparently the NYT editorial board felt is was time for a clever political critique of Turkish motives. Even as the facts of Saudi actions are still under investigation, and even while the grieving for this WP reporter continues.
That Erdogan is a corrupt thug is hardly breaking news. Is not the real story the killing of a US resident by Saudi agents, with the likely backing of a prince who seems to have charmed Trump and members of his family?
And isn't part of the real story that it seems certain that the Saudis and their 'reformer' prince will likely walk away with nothing but a scolding and a meaningless warning to 'be better'?
How about a hard-knuckled editorial on that?
1
@Jensetta...
Of course the Saudis and their "reformer" prince will walk away with naught but a scolding.
But what could possibly happen and what would be the consequences of those response?
It's easy so sit back and scold, and a scolding is well deserved. Indeed, something stronger is indicated, but how does the United States go about doing that something without shooting itself in the foot?
Whether you one the liberal/progressive left like it or not, Trump has managed to achieve things internationally that other presidents have not..or, for that matter, even addressed.
Yes, the need for instant closure has become the go-to position of the press, and by extension, pounded into the psyche of The People, but conducting foreign policy on that basis is somewhat stupid.
Trump may or may not find a forceful and/or graceful way to get the closure that everyone thinks they need. But he at least deserves the opportunity to achieve that end and, if he doesn't, he can be held accountable in accordance the rules established in 1787 for the election of the president of our constitutional REPUBLIC.
1
@The Owl
In what possible way has Trump 'deserve the opportunity' to conduct himself in ways that bring disrespect and open giggles from the actual adults trying to manage an increasingly unstable world?
That said, your Trumpian capitalization of the word 'republic' brought a smile.
@Jensetta
I don't see what's so clever in starting the obvious. Erdegan is a devious dictator and one of the top dangers to the West.
Across the street are two kindergarten schools. The neighbors are attorneys offices, advertisement agencies and the Consulate of Pakistan.
1
An unfortunate headline. It gives the impression that the editorial is blaming the victims of a crime. (Turkey is not the primary victim but it is still a victim.) The contents of the editorial are more balanced but many readers seem to be responding more to the headline than the editorial.
1
Saudi doesn't do anything without US knowing; thus this all could be not only a payback at Saudi but indirectly at USA which through Gulenist movement attempted coup d'etat two years ago against Erdogan; when taht didnt work Trump played finacial dirty tricks against Erdogan. Trump is trapped here.
4
Turkey is not the good guy here. The preparedness and specificity of their intelligence and the manner in which they have counter-punched each Saudi twist shows the Turks had advance knowledge of the preparatory steps and the plan itself. It also shows they saw better value in humiliating Saudi then saving Jamal's life. People as paws is the reality of things but not the right thing.
I wonder how much money that Erdogan has tried to shake the Saudis down for?
BTW Sheik Mohammed ruler of Dubai just walked into the Saudi investment forum. Its good for Saudi to know who its friends are.
1
The trouble for Turkey, the Saudis and Trump is that according to many the U.S.' intelligence agencies already know what happened inside the Saudi Embassy in Turkey.
30
@Daniel A. Greenbaum
I'll bet they do along with some journalists as well.
No doubt it has been classified top secret, eyes only.
But it is still a bargaining chip: how much will be revealed or not will depend on the price paid, that is probably what is being negotiated right now.
1
Excellent analysis. It was just yesterday that the price of oil dropped dramatically when Saudi Arabia said that it would pump all the oil it could. Coincidence? Doubtful. Erdogan just happens to have video and audio of a murder on the sovereign land and building of another country which the embassy is? At a time when the dedicated security cameras were turned off? Erdogan released the American pastor just one month ago to begin better relations with the US and now shared the complete evidence with his new best friend. I may be dreaming of conspiracy but for this particular butcher to be outraged and pointing fingers while he and Turkey will be the ones to seriously benefit politically and perhaps financially begs a deeper investigation.
2
It would be nice if this government would pay attention to the histories of these countries. It would be equally nice if we had a vision for the world going forward. Within these contexts, and with a moral compass directing our role, we might look less like a shuttlecock and more like world leaders.
The guiding principle in these affairs is internal control. No one really cares about the rest. More external enemies, more home support. All that is knowable about this murder is known. The game is the drip-feed of this knowledge into the battered body that is the Middle East.
2
There might very well be a the motive of diverting the attention of the United States away from the power moves that he continues to make within Turkey itself.
And, as always in Turkish foreign relations, the matter of the rebellious Kurds in Turkey's eastern sections is always lurking.
4
The simplest explanation that comes to mind that Erdogan developed a vision or hallucination of restoring Turkey's "manifest destiny" within the space of the former Ottoman Empire. Perhaps he wants also to repossess the former Turkish conquests in the Balkans.
All in all, the biggest mistake of the Allies of World War I was not to confine Turkey to the East of Bosphorus in Asia Minor, and thereby end its troublesome status as a pseudo-European country.
2
@Tuvw Xyz
That's a far bigger element than many wish to admit.
And, with a cooperative Russia to the north, Erdogan may just be looking to see how far outside the envelope that he can move.
2
The editorial is based in a lot of unspoken animosity to Erdogan.
Khashoggi was a personal friend of his. He is also a man bent on holding power for a long time thus any violation of Truikey's laws especially by rival foreigners acting with impunity would be a natural focus for him to get worked up about. Had he been more circumspect it would serve to weaken his illegitimate hold on power. Yes he is in power by machination not unlike how the GOP has held power for the last 40 years.
Haspel went to Turkey to stop Erdogan from revealing the Skype recording which would make it crystal clear that Mbs was behind this.
We should drop Saudi Arabia as an ally and actively ostracize them from the world community. How is it not already been done? Unless the GOP is comfortable with such depravity as dismembering living people to torture them to death!
@magicisnotreal...
That's about as brilliant as Obama and Hillary allowing the war in Syria to metastasize.
@The Owl
The war in Syria was started by Assad. The metastisis of it was due to what W and Cheney did in Iraq. Daesh would never have come to be had they not been so stupid about dealing with Hussein's officer corp.
@magicisnotreal...
Sorry...The acts that allowed the Syrian affair to metastasize was the Obama administration funneling arms to the rebels through Lybian front companies.
As for the Bush administration's failure to comprehend the political and military strengths of an unemployed officer corp, I agree that is on him. But Daesh grew its roots in Syria, in a basket case in a nation that has problems controlling the land within its borders, not in the halls of the White House.
Look at what Erdogan has done in Turkey over the past 5 years. Tens of thousands ousted from their work, many imprisoned, for their alleged ideological faults and possible sympathy for the now almost eliminated opposition to Erdogan. There's probably some torture in there. But on the Saudi side, they did send 15 people to kill an mild opponent to the regime. And they maintain a medieval religious monarchy that has corruptly bled Arabia for the immense monarchy's benefit for generations, which the US has supported fairly blindly for 70 years. Probable worldwide supporters of radical Islamic terror and education, but not called on it by the US. And a continuing throttling of the a substantial Shiite population for generations. And MBS, a young intriguer who has leveled much of Yemen with US logistical and communications assistance, taking a very poor country to a prostrate level, and continuing the assault. Of the two countries, I think Turkey is the preferable ally, it is time for the US to recognize the Saudis are not our friends, weapons sales to the contrary.
2
As a follower of Islam, , with around 1.5 Billion followers let me explain something about the feud between Turkey and S. Arabia. First of all there is no concept of Kings and hereditary Kingship in Islam. However, a strong, pious ELECTED leader is allowed and encouraged, who the faithful must obey. Saudia Arabia , has a lot of oil wealth and they have never been occupied by Western Colonialists. But their leadership is pathetic. The founder of the State AbdulAziz bin Saud was a bandit and a robber, who used to rob the Haj Piligrims. The Saudis kings and Princes have absolutely failed to improve the conditions of their subjects. The fears of lashes, dungeons, chopping of hands and decapitations is the main reason people have not, as yet, dethroned them. Imagine, this rich country still has very few Universities, medical and Engineering colleges : the only thing they have is oil. They still import their doctors and engineers from poor countries like India and Pakistan. Contrast this with Turkey. A modern country, with a strong pious leader, previously a Center of Islamic Power, inheritor of Islamic Caliphate a great history, highly educated and productive population. Naturally, Muslims all over the world are leaning more towards Turkey than Saudi Arabia.
9
@Syed Abdulhaq
I am also a follower of Islam, one of the 1.5 billion you mention. Your statement: "First of all there is no concept of Kings and hereditary Kingship in Islam." is ABSOLUTELY perfect and I cannot imagine why these Kings exist all across the Arab lands. These kings should be dethroned by Muslims all across the globe.
In this situation, what President Erdogan is doing is unequivocally correct: to shine a light on the atrocities these Saudi rulers commit.
2
So this comes down to two middle eastern strongmen jockeying for position. The details of the crime no longer matter; whoever plays it the best wins.
What were the Saudis thinking, that they could get away with it? Any two-bit gangster could have planned it better, Khashoggi would have disappeared, and no one would have any evidence who did it. But the Saudis apparently muffed it, and now the best they can hope for is to contain the damage, while the Turks want to extract the maximum advantage from the Saudi's mistake.
I wonder if Khashoggi suspected something like this might happen, and took precautions to make sure that it could not be kept secret. If so, he raised the cost for the crown prince to send his message to dissidents of all stripes. Apparently the crown prince was willing to pay the price, which Turkey hopes will be expensive.
2
I don't remember seeing any articles about the UK's "game" when Russian operatives assassinated people there. Countries simply don't like it when other countries kill people on their soil. There is plenty to criticize about Ergodan, but this instance isn't one of them.
67
@David Never trust a turk, historically speaking. But putting history aside, there massive evidence never to trust Erdogan. Erdogan is a mass killer himself, running a country as a dictator; he's theocrat and imposing; Turkey's population is suppressed by the measures taken by Erdogan. He's not a model leader, qualified to speak against any murder, whether it was on Turkey's soil or foreign.
2
@David
and let's not forget that the US Administration of Nixon/Kissinger "tolerated" the assassination in Washington, DC, of Orlando Letelier, the former defense minister of Chile after, again, the US helped to install the torturing dictator Gen. Pinochet. Memories are all too
short in America as David Bowie once sang.
4
@David The fact that Erdogan had the information trickle out bit by bit when most of it was already known by intelligence agencies shows an interest in controlling the narrative. Erdogan accused Saudi Arabia of murdering the journalist, and said they had evidence, but didn't produce it right away. Erdogan is a very savvy politician who has obviously manipulated the flow of information as best he could. So, I disagree that this is just a case of not liking it happening on Turkish soil. This is to damage Saudi reputation worldwide.
2
The problem for America is not the killing of an insignificant journalist/political insider in a region where that sort of behavior is par for the course. And the problem for America is not discerning the motives of a different Mideast strongman who likes to imprison journalists. The problem for America is that we have needlessly put ourselves in the middle of this situation.
At one point in our history, not that long ago, we needed Mideast oil and it was necessary to walk a tightrope by allying ourselves with the likes of the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein and Saudi Arabia. At one point we were stood face-to-face with the USSR and international communism, and it made sense to ally ourselves with Russia's historic arch-enemy Turkey.
Now we don't need Mideast oil, and the USSR no longer exists. We have no national interest in knowing or caring about how those nations (if you can call Islamic states nations) conduct their business. So we should butt out of their affairs--just like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson told us we should do about entangling foreign alliances. Then we wouldn't have to sit around trying to figure out the Byzantine dealings of places that make no difference to us any more.
2
Following is not enough.
And perhaps Mr. Erdogan sees an opportunity, as American officials and other experts have speculated, to use the murder to extort money from the Saudis to shore up Turkey’s failing economy in exchange for eventually helping to shift the blame away from the Saudi regime. The Turkish lira has been falling steadily and inflation has been rising, squeezing Turkish workers and the government.
After MBS cleaning the saud house from previous king and relatives , most likely Turkey lost all proxies around the king, This was very clear during the Qatar crisis.
Turkey one way or another is requesting recognition and what is lost during the King transition.
Turkey has one thing that desperately in need of OIL.
That is the game here, expectation is recovering Saudi's attention and oil support to Turkey like early years of Erdogan so Erdogan get breathing again, otherwise a long lasting economic crisis break the back of Erdogan regime.
Only problem is does extortion works for Saudi's? whose idea was that in the first place?
A bald-faced cover-up by Saudi Arabia, from the beginning.
A bald-faced power play by Turkey, from the beginning.
Muted and muddle reactions from around the world as CEOs and presidents calculated risk of association versus reward of the Saudi wealth.
Mr. Khashoggi’s death and the aftermath have been nothing more than moves in the epic game of geopolitical struggle. No power here is at all interested in justice for the dead.
5
I ran into an article that states that the Saudis have been running a assassination and rendition team for a few years. And that this isn't a one-off murder.
Another friend has told me that there are rumors that people who criticize Saudi Arabia and then go on pilgrimage to Mecca sometimes disappear. Their families are told to keep quiet by the US state department under the premise that the missing are in prison and not dead.
I apparently criticized them once in such a way that I started getting ominous "friending" and connection requests in social media. I was surprised because I said something novel but not exceptional in the freewheeling speculation about national activities. I decided that I wouldn't fly through Saudi Arabia or any allied countries either.
I think the most important thing to Erdogan was that the Saudis took their Murder Incorporated team into Turkey.
Israel has no love for the Saudis. If they can being the country down, they will.
The Saudis are in a particularly critical stage right now. They operate now as royalty but were really clans. As clans, the people had various ways to influence their government. Government was by consensus. Now, with the strongest group of brothers, the sons of one wife of Ibn Saud aging out of power the question is how to transition to another stable regime.
3
The Middle East is a complex and ruthless place. With Assad still in place as the Syrian President, after killing hundreds of thousands, MBS crimes seem to pale by comparison. Saudi Arabia was being primed to be the major force when the US, combined with them and Israel pushed back against Iran. With SA now tied into knots, the future of the "deal of the century" is in serious jeopardy. Trump is caught between reality and a hard place. Erdogan has played the cards he was dealt masterfully....until now. Going forward, can he unify a herd of cats, or will he be caught up in the infighting which invariably develops.
Russia has placed its S-300 missile system in Syria blocking Israel attempts at containing Iran's expansion. The Palestinians are at each others throats between Gaza and the West Bank, with Iran investing heavily in sandwiching Israel between Lebanon in the North and Gaza in the East. It is Iran who benefits from the weakening of Saudi Arabia. Will Trump play chess or checkers? Perhaps this is the significance of him meeting with Putin November 11. Time will tell.
3
There are three regional powers that pre-date the arrival of Islam in MENA and Central Asia.
Persia (Iran)
Egypt
Turkey
Other efforts from Alexander the Great to Genghis Khan and Tamerlane to Peter the Great, (plus the colonial period of European control) have injected themselves with only limited success.
Saudi Arabia (Iraq, Syria, Jordan etc.) is a country made up by the British at the end of WWI in an effort to maintain the empire. That it had oil was fortuitous, but SA is not really a country, it's imply a religious center.
Let's refocus US diplomacy on the traditional powers in the region, just as we have with India and China. Iran is critical to our efforts in the region, as are Turkey and Egypt. A laser-like focus on the traditional nations in the region and not on SA will provide a better balance in our multi-polar world of the future.
6
@UTBG
The royal family and the whole culture seem to me to be pretty much exactly the same primitive brutal tribal people who were living in tents 80 years ago when oil was found except they now have modern technology with which to impose that primitive brutality. In fact I think the forbears 80 years ago were probably a lot less brutal.
2
The brutal pre-meditated murder of Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul has shined a light on the current iterations of The Great Game.
By which I mean, control of the globes most important resources and the shipping lanes and waterways by which they are transported. And, who benefits from the resources and their movements.
Qatar and Iran own a giant oil field in the seas between them. Which is what explains the otherwise baffling blockade of Qatar by Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Egypt last year.
Turkey is a Muslim country whose interests align more closely with Iran, Russia, Syria, and Qatar.
The USA stands with Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Israel.
It's oil pipeines. And gas pipelines. And the waterways connecting them
Look at a map with these alliances in mind and some of the questions may be answered.
43
What we are witnessing is equivalent to mafia bosses flexing their muscles in an economic turf war. Trump is out of his league.
3
@Barnaby Wild.......How about we get to see Trump's tax returns; and Kushner's while we are at it.
Let's see, on the one hand we have "Populist Islam" (whatever that means), and "Monarchical Islam" vying for hegemony in the region.
So hard to choose, they both work so flawlessly.
And the Saudis were making so much progress by allowing women to drive lest anybody think they were impervious to modernity. Hah, that 'll show 'em!
But Yemen, and now this little hiccup with the 15 man hit squad wielding a bone saw. Can I get an amen for the religion of peace!
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
This Erdogan is a player, I think the smart money is on him.
2
Turkey is a NATO ally, which the US and other NATO members are sworn to defend.
Q: If Turkey and Saudi Arabia go to war, does the US get to bomb Saudi Arabia all the way back to Mohammad AND sell it $115 billion in weapons to bomb us back? (Asking for a friend)
Maybe Jared knows the answer?
3
Seriously, if another nation planned and executed a violent killing of a human on your soil, dismembered the body, and then lied about it, would you have to have a "game"?
7
Erdogan and MSB- with friends like these, who needs enemies?
A pox on both their houses.
They're both playing Trump for the fool that he is-just like Putin and Kim.
4
If Erdogan's objective is to "raise the price" for a deal with the Saudis, then either the alleged audio recording of the interrogation and murder of Khashoggi doesn't exist, and is merely a bluff, or it does exist but Erdogan's threat to reveal it is a bluff. Either way, we'll never hear it.
If Erdogan's motivation was to hold the Saudis accountable for murder, and if he had damning evidence against the Saudis, he would have made the recording public three weeks ago.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
2
"Gina Haspel, the C.I.A. director, was in Istanbul on Tuesday to be briefed on the case."
Please. She was there to do "damage control" for the Trump administration and protect the financial dealings of Trump and Kushner. This is a no-brainer...even for the NYTimes.
4
The Muslim Brotherhood is actually the good guys compared to the autocratic Wahabbist-Terrorist brand of Islam spread by Saudi billions. That's why the US goes along with the actual terrorists, Saudi Arabia, in criticizing the MB.
1
Should Trump send his wife to initiate a better relationship with Erdogan?
Your headline sounds rather hostile to Turkey. Why not save your hostility for the Saudis, who deserve it more?
7
Let's stop worrying about Erdogan's motives and help him expose MBS for what he is, a murderous thug who should be removed from the succession in Saudi Arabia's monarchy and executed. Then let's start worrying about John Bolton's servile performance in Moscow where Putin openly insulted him and bragged that the United States was no longer a world power because he had Trump on a leash. What was our national security adviser doing there in the first place and why has the NYT been ignoring this story?
4
Erdogan is small potatoes compared to Prince Mohammed. We should be grateful for his refusal to allow Saudi Arabia to continue to evade responsibility for their horrific murder of Khashoggi.
Our own politicians, on both sides of the aisle, don't have the integrity or the guts to do that. Not that I'm surprised. We never held Saudi Arabia accountable for their part in the murder of thousands of American citizens on 9-11. They own us, apparently.
2
How many hundreds of people did Ergodan torture and kill during his “coup”? Why is there not more mention of that? NYT is playing right into his hand in their sensationalist over coverage of the killing
2
@Russell
False equivalency unless you have some evidence he had people dismembered alive?
How convenient that we had Bloody Gina, our very own torture expert, to 'investigate'.
3
"Such an open challenge to Saudi Arabia, a regional power that has cultivated a close relationship with President Trump...., is an audacious move."
The US media keeps calling Saudi Arabia "a regional power." One has to wonder what criteria are used to elevate this country to "a regional power." Is it for its enormous oil income? Is it for its highly capable military? Is it for its shrewd role that it plays in regional and international politics? Is it for its highly dynamic, innovative, society? Or is it something else?
It cannot be the money. If money was the only criteria to elevate a country to "a regional power", then Switzerland and a few other European countries should also have that title.
It cannot be the Saudi military. The current disastrous Saudi war in Yemen points to a backward, second rate, military. In the past, the Saudis have called on Pakistani and Egyptian military to quell unrest in its own cities. That is to say they have little confidence in their own military.
It cannot be the shrewd regional or international politics of the Saudis. We have seen their recent maneuvers vis-à-vis Lebanon's PM, Saad Hariri, their disastrous intervention in Syria, or the way they are handling Mr. Khashoggi's murder.
It cannot be for its highly dynamic population. The Saudi regime has been bribing its public by money for decades. Every technical task there is done by foreigners.
So, it must be other considerations. Could it be its servile relation with the US?
7
Poor Erdogan. He has finally realized he made a deal with the International Mafia and is the low man on the totem pole. Sharks eat sharks. Mafia kill each other and, as they say, there is NO honor among thieves.
We see that in The Con Don. Lie, Lie, Lie. Spread fear-anger-hate. Destroy.
WE THE PEOPLE must stop the International Mafia Robber Barons and their radical religious brethren before they can start WW3 and destroy OUR lives.
NOW is the time. There may not be another time for centuries.
16
Why the continued Support for Saudi Arabia? Yes Turkey is a questionable commodity, but Saudi Arabia is the home of Sunni extremism - Al Qaeda, ISIS and Wahhabism. Blaming Iran - a Shia regime - is exactly what the Saudis and Israel want. Military sales is not a substitute for moral supremacy.
23
@Gary Shia or Sunni, Arab or Persian, Saudi or Turkey or Iran...none of them are truly allies of the US and none of them are supporters of anything we stand for.
1
Turkey is not playing any game. Turkey is playing international ethnic sectarian socioeconomic partisan political hegemony in order to make Turkey great again.
Recep Tayyip Erdogan has visions of burying the civil secular separation of mosque and Turkey state of Kemal Attaturk. In favor of the ethnic sectarian supremacist nationalist imperial model of Ottoman Turk Sultan Suleiman the Maginificent and resurrecting the Hittite Empire.
With 80 milion Sunni Muslim citizens Turkeys ethnic Turks are outnumberd by 4x aka 320 million as many ethnic Arabs in Egypt, Saudi Arabia.etc. In addition there are 35 million Sunni Muslim ethnic Kurds who have no state in which they are a majority. Then there are 80 million Iranians who are predominantly ethnic Persian Shia Muslims. Along with Shia Muslim Arabs in Iraq and Syria. Finally there are 6.1 million Zionist Jewish Israelis and 6 million Christian Muslim Arab Palestinian Israelis.
6
Turkey's "game" is obvious.
I now expect the Editorial Board to pen an equally cogent opinion on Saudi Arabia's geopolitical game in the region...its disastrous war and human crimes in Yemen, and exposing its deep and longstanding monetary links to our politicians, lobbyists and miscellaneous political hacks.
32
@Confucius
Expect all you want. The NYT editorial board will remain silent.
Turkey's record on human rights is nothing to applaud. Recent and past history (Armenians) shows deadly intolerance. Saudi Arabia, before and after its formal nationality, is no better. What do they have in common?
6
@farleysmoot
Armenian Genocide occurred in Ottoman time. Turkey when its founded break clear with ottoman regime , abolished the sultanate and Caliphate all together, the Armenian genocide perpetrators are exiled and Turkey tried to wash his hands. Turkey after 1923 established as a new country not continuity to Ottoman empire. Of course this issue doesn't go away but that is what it is.
1
Two Vultures, fighting over the remains. Literally.
7
I am sick to my stomach. We are living in a world where dirty negotiations are carried out in public view, legitimizing the underlying crime and using the crime to get power. I am worried about where the world is going, for my child and for the next generation in general. They will pay for our ignorance handsomely.
9
It doesn't matter if the witness to a crime is himself a criminal. We should not let Trump off the hook by raising questions about Turkey's motives. It's about the evidence itself and not the character of the witness. Why is the NYT helping make excuses for turning a blind eye to this outrage?
10
Two states have caused maximum harm to the world terrorism and Muslim people are Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. The only strength of those two countries were their strong relations with US - the historical legacy of Cold War and Oil economics. Separating US from these relations were a challenge - a strong deep state networks made these relations unbreakable. In case of Pakistan, the persistent effort of India to disrupt that relation finally materialized with Trump/Obama - Modi personal chemistry - the reality of Pakistani states is slowly unfolding. Saudi Arabia still is able to hold its relation because there was no force that is working on this. Finally, Turkey may be able to remove that gap. If Trump and Edogram can establish the right chemistry - Saudi Arabia will be put in right place - a despotic oil rich monarchy with medieval human right principles. The human right has two dimensions - respect for all life and equality of men and women. MBS yet to show that he understand the first one.
2
Very good article. Erdogan has ambitions that go beyond Turkey. Also, Erdogan is no saint. I have live in Diyarbakir, which is the capital of Kurdish Turkey. The Turkish Kurds will tell you, almost to a person, of how Erdogan has oppressed them. Also Erdogan never took the opportunity to apologize to Armenia for the Turkish atrocities during the Ottoman Empire. This, recently, drove Armenia back into the Russian camp.
7
Saudi Arabia is a family business. It is conventional wisdom that the heirs of the founders are not as clever, agile or charismatic as the founders. That is why smart heirs like Henry Ford II chose able managers, such as Ernest Breech and Robert MacNamara to run their companies.
Saudi rulers have many heirs. Those who attain power often do so by cunning and brutality, such as Kim Jong-Um, who murdered his uncle and half-brother. Crown Prince Bin Salam did likewise by elbowing aside his many brothers and cousins.
President Erdogan is not the head of family dynasty. He is the leader of a totalitarian democracy, in which he controls the media and the courts. He is also a skillful politician. Not a total autocrat, he has to deal with a political opposition.
He understands that Saudi Arabia is a weak country, playing above its game and depending on a resource with increasingly uncertain value. He has seized on the Khashoggi murder--to bring Saudi Arabia down to size and to increase his own power in the middle east.
11
I'm reminded of this truism in politics: Countries have interests, countries do not have friends.
All that Turkey is is "interested" in is milking Saudi Arabia to help shore its falling currency and weak economy and in increasing the distance between the Saudis and America. Turkey is not seeking to make "friends" with the Saudis or America.
11
Turkey, a multicultural society with economic and identity issues, wants to be America's best friend. Saudi Arabia, a mono-cultural society with no money problems that is the country that is responsible for the 9/11 attacks, has another agenda. Turkey has a place for storing American weapons. Saudi Arabia uses American weapons against us. The question is, what is America's game? Is it to make money by selling Saudi Arabia our weapons or to engage with a nation that has some of the same issues that we have and is willing to help us stabilize the region?
3
A Masterful Chess Game! Do I believe that Turkey has the goods on the Saudi Prince? That’s a no brainer. How? Like any other rouge autocratic system, they make up the rules behind closed doors. Have they always had their embassies bugged? Again, a complete no-brainer. They all do. Believe me!!!
So–What is the next step for Turkey? Probably show what they have behind closed doors to MBS. If that doesn’t loosen up MBS’s pocketbook, they show it to Trump.
Either way, we as Americans lose. A real American President would have seen through all of this the moment it happened. What Jamal couldn’t do in life is happening in his death! Saudi Arabia is being exposed to the world for exactly what it really is: A Tribe that won The Lottery.
9
That someone like Erdogan has to step into the leadership vacuum speaks of the lack of morality of the current occupant of 1600 Pennsy Avenue.
The Donald cannot understand right and wrong - his compass is set to winning and losing. In his world, winning is accomplished by stealing money.
If this outrageous murder were perpetrated by a third world nation, Trump would be all bluster and threats.
When the criminals have lots and lots of the object of Trump's desire, then the sounds of silence.
8
"President Recep Tayyip Erdogan sees the Jamal Khashoggi case as a chance to hobble Saudi Arabia, a regional and religious rival."
That was pretty obvious over a week ago, no? And therefore while I do not trust the Saudis, it's hard to trust the Turks.
After all, the Turks have for a good ten years now been killing journalists, schoolteachers, and anti-Erdogan secular military men.
A pox on all of them. At least we can't lay this one at the feet of the Israelis.
5
Although Erdogan had the courage to confront Saudi Arabia's crime (the killing of Jamal Khashoggi by Salman's orders), he 'owes' us a full report yet of the information he has hidden under key and lock, to fully expose Prince Salman as the awful architect of a heinous assassination...just because it touched his poor ego. You are right, Erdogan is a despot in his own right, and his assertions must be taken with a grain of salt (as he is playing out his chance to benefit from it, given his malevolent incompetence in his own internal affairs). Trump is the loser here, by his initial attempt to defend Salman; a moral loss for these United States as well, something brutus Trump (and his minions) will never admit.
25
This article is a thinly veiled attack on Erdogan. Of course he represses Turkish media organizations that are unfavorable toward his office, because they helped bring about an attempted coup.
6
@Eifeld
Not really that coup was done by Erdogan and fethullah together.
@su
Huh I had it figured for an Erdogan Putin bash. It looked to me like the Russians activated their guys who manipulated a bunch of young foolish boys into doing what they did. Didn't you notice the naive shock on their faces when it failed? No serious plotter would have been caught so pants down. It was a manufactured for the purpose of justifying the crackdown he instituted afterwards. It was an excuse to get rid of people he could not corrupt or intimidate or manipulate into doing as he wanted.
Fettulah Gullan cult it may be, is from what I have read a group based on encouraging its members to act with morality in mind kind of like how the US government and regulatory system used to operate before the GOP destroyed us/it. Modern Turkey was set up by Kamal Attaturk to be secular, Erdogan is an Islamist.
Trying to read tea leaves in the midst of a very real, horrific murder of a respected journalist does nothing but play into the hands of those who would undermine the international significance of this case.
Everyone knows who and what Erdogan is. The fact Khasoggi's murder took place in a Saudi consulate on Erdogan's soil does not mean we throw shade on the worldwide significance of this journalist's outrageous murder.
4
The whole thing is an outrage from the pre-meditated 15-man hit squad who tortured and murdered an innocent man in a consulate in a foreign country to a president who wants to make hay while he can against a regional rival to a crown prince who would force the son of a man he probably ordered dismembered to come and shake his hand while he expresses phony sympathy. They're all bad actors worthy of whatever accountability comes their way in the future. It's obscene.
8
I thought I recently read that Erdogan knew Khashoggi to the point of friendship? If that is the case, a ruthless strongman certainly wants his loyal thugs to feel that he will have their backs to the end. Should Erdogan let this murder of a friend pass he would lose significant standing with those he most needs loyalty from.
1
Erdogan is clearly playing a game. The big tell is that his media outlets have said over and over again that they have audio recordings of the murder.
If Erdogan has such recordings why not put them out there and make this a slam dunk for justice? Because he is trying to either make some bargain with Saudi Arabia or simply relishing the discomfiture of MBS.
If he is bluffing about those tapes he will end up looking foolish.
If he actually has them and never releases them it will be clear he got a deal.
3
Why do we call our enemies "allies"?
3
Erdogan is the only head of state having an appropriate reaction to the Khashoggi murder. It's Trump and the Saudis who are playing games. Word games and murder games.
79
@DMS
Dear DMS,
It is all for show. If he wants to bring about justice, release those audio tapes and then let the chips fall where they will. If he doesn't, either he is bluffing or he blackmailing MBS.
6
@DMS
Saudi doesn't do anything without US knowing; thus this all could be not only a payback at Saudi but indirectly at USA which through Gulenist movement attempted coup d'etat two years ago against Erdogan; when taht didnt work Trump played finacial dirty tricks against Erdogan. Trump is trapped here.
3
Much as I like the idea of having a horrific murder and the perpetrators of it exposed, It has been apparent from the beginning that Erdogan is playing a game of his own. Turkey is not currently an exemplar of democracy, and has no love for a free press as the editorial exploring Erdogan's motives points out. So, it is good that what happened is being made known to the public, but I don't think Erdogan should be getting any medals for his response to this event.
1
One nationalist trying to upend another nationalist in order to gain favor with another nationalist. Trump has certainly done his best to shake up the world order but where it will lead to is anyone's guess. Meanwhile, the climate continues to warm, the needs of the impoverished are neglected, democracy has lost its shine and the power and wealth of the elites increases.
13
@Susan
"Trump has done his best to shake up the world order..."
Susan, consider that perhaps M.B.S. was emboldened to murder a troublesome journalist because he believed that the Don 'had his back'. After all, Mr. Trump has made it perfectly clear that he loves strongmen and dictators and hates journalists who don't parrot his lies.
Meanwhile, the climate warms as we burn American and Saudi fossil fuels. And the power of the elites to influence democratic elections increase as they stoke the fear of many impoverished and neglected Americans and urge them to vote against their own self-interest.
2
Turkey has been competing with the Royal family to be THE Islamic state of the region. Erdogan's domestic and foreign policy have been pushing in that direction.
When the Saudi's weighed in against the Assad regime Turkey joined in. But when the Saudi's began funding ISIS that threatened Turkey's southern border and led the Syrian Kurds to push for more autonomy, Turkey pushed back.
This is why Turkey stood by and allowed Saudi funded ISIS forces to attack the Kurds, as long as neither side crossed over into Turkish territory.
These alliances and conflicts are fluid and often conflicting. But it's clear Erdogan sees an opportunity to embarrass the Saudi's and possibly diminish their influence. All the Saudi's really have is money, and lots of it.
But Turkey has a much more strategic position as it's located between Europe and Central Asia and shares borders with Russia and Iran.
Part of the message Erdogan is sending is that they are much more important than the Saudi's, yet don't have the ear of the president as they do. After this revelation they expect that to change.
5
Not a word about Iran?
Everybody can hear the drumbeats of war being beaten by the US (particularly Bolton), Bibi in Israel, and Mr. Bone Saw. They all want to go at Iran. The undermining of MBS and the US-Saudi relationship make this war much less likely.
A regional war between Iran and Saudi Arabia would be disastrous for Turkey, no matter how it turns out. Iran is 4 times the size of Syria in population, and also has significant ethnic groups (Arabs, Kurds, Azeri, Balochs) within the country. An invasion of Iran could send 10 million refugees Turkey's way, and leave it with 3 autonomous Kurdish regions on its eastern borders. That is the stuff of Turkish nightmares, and anything that reduces the chance of war is good.
12
@Ed
I never expected defending Ergodan (the exterminator of Kurds and jailer of journalists) but he is the moral agent in this story. No sane person wants the evil of war that will siphon resources from the urgently needed transition to the post dirty fossil fuel economy.
While mercury-laced-coal lover Trump is defending the Salman torture-murder (limiting his criticism in the bad cover up) Ergodan is leading Turkey in the post fossil fuel economy. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkeys-wind-energy-sector-lures-12-bil...
4
I agree that Erdogan is using this murder for his own purposes on bashing MBS. I guess it is a case of the ends justifies the means but I wonder what he is holding back.
Does he have a video of the murder, and if yes, why wasn't it stopped? If Turkey knew a goon squad carrying an alleged bone saw came in through their country why didn't they challenge them there and then? Why did they let them leave?
No-one has the right to take anyone's life, and I believe that completely. Other than in the case of self-defense or war no-one has the right to choose whether someone else lives or dies.
I am glad this issue is not being kicked aside as it speaks to the safety of journalists everywhere, but I am wondering if Erdogan thinks this worldwide fervor will bring down the reign of MBS. If that is the dice he is rolling on his gamble he may just be right.
4
Who cares about Erdogan's motive in exposing this crime? But the world wants to know the truth about what happened. Erdogan does not stand for press freedom or protecting journalists either. He wants to use the Khashoggi episode to his own advantage, he wants to derail MBS of Saudi Arabia.
The Saudi kingdom hates the Muslim Brotherhood. They have been demanding Qatar to end its support for the Muslim Brotherhood. Erdogan and Kashoggi were strong supporters of Muslim Brotherhood. Saudi Arabia considers the Muslim Brotherhood as a regional threat. In 1952, a group of army officers, calling themselves the Free Officers movement, overthrew the Egyptian monarchy in a bloodless coup in cooperation with the Muslim Brotherhood. The Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia does not want the similar thing to happen to his own kingdom, so this whole game is about the survival of the Saudi monarchy.
11
@Padman A cursory search will reveal that the 1952 overthrow of Egypt's monarchy was done by a group of secular Egyptian military officers who had absolutely no connection to the Muslim Brotherhood. In fact, Nasser (one of the Egyptian officers) regularly imprisoned Muslim Brotherhood members who tried fruitlessly to assassinate him. The founder of the Muslim Brotherhood (Al Banna) was hanged at the orders of Nasser and his judiciary.
Another quick search will reveal the "royal" regime in Saudi Arabia is hand-in-glove with Wahhabism; an extremist doctrine that believes that all those who don't practice their form of Islam are heathens and enemies...so the extremist ideology is already well entrenched in and complicit with the Saudi royals. This Saudi regime has exported the toxic Wahhabism to the region and beyond...and is linked to the criminals who attacked us on 9.11. The Turks didn't do it. The Iraqis didn't do it. The Afghans did not do it. Fifteen of them were Saudi.
The survival of the Saudi monarchy is based -like all tyrannies- on imprisoning/murdering dissidents, crushing all forms of dissent, controlling its mainstream media, PR, bribing Western political operatives and politicians, and going to war against an impoverished nation (Yemen) with no end in sight.
20
@Confucius.
You are not right in saying that the military officers had" absolutely no connection to the Muslim Brotherhood (MB)". Initially, they were helped by the MB
The secular Egyptian military officers ( The Free Officers, led by Gamal Abdel Nasser)
later on, disagreed with the Muslim Brotherhood's vision of implementing Islamic law and favored a secular socialist model.
Following a failed attempt to assassinate Nasser in Alexandria in 1954, the Brotherhood was blamed and outlawed,
@Padman
And didn't Qtd/b come out of Egyptian prison to become a radical after spending time in the USA as well, disliking it immensely for the way women dressed and had freedoms and other dislikes. He and Osama's lt. the good doctor became pals in prison. Then on to 9/11.
Now, this is much better.
In all the reporting and commentary I have yet to see what the NYTimes would consider justice for Mr Kashoggi's family and fiancé. I have seen many articles and commentary and I see the lots of care about the political fallout, whether it be Saudi, Turkish, or American especially President Trump, but honestly no real call for justice.
Mr Kashoggi was murdered. In violation of the laws of Turkey and Saudi Arabia. The people involved should be tried. Further, Saudi Arabia should lose consular privileges world wide. If your embassies are going to be secret charnel houses, there is no place for them in an international community.
But then there are arm sales to worry about, and oil... I am starting to think that on this, Trump is being honest while everyone else gnashes teeth with no calls to actually do anything. When good people accept atrocities as the normal course of business. Atrocity will be our common future.
25
@Edward Brennan
Thank you, Mr Brennan. I agree completely. I even learned the meaning of "charnel".
BT
@Edward Brennan
" When good people accept atrocities as the normal course of business. Atrocity will be our common future."
Well said, I cannot agree more. Many religious scriptures in the world will agree with you.
1
@Edward Brennan
I agree with your concern for justice; the tone of this editorial leads the reader to expect Khashoggi will be thrown under the bus for Turkey's long game of securing power in the region.
For their to be justice in Khashoggi's assassination there needs to be criminal, diplomatic, and civil penalties; from civil penalties, a new international, independent institution needs to be brought forth that advances journalism internationally as a tribute to Khashoggi for his work as a journalist.
Erdogan is not interested in this, for sure, but it would be a just answer to this attack on journalism.
Those made indignant by this grizzly crime need to demand more than an apology.
1
We should rejoice that two authoritarian, thuggish regimes are butting heads together, vying to be top dog in the slaughter house that is the Middle East.
But we should remember, Trump is waiting to see who emerges strongest from this, so he can partner them in their gory dance.
Trump has a penchant for strong, violent men, who despoil their own people. His own personal fantasy, perhaps?
8
So when you say "What is Turkey's game?" you are regarding Khashoggi's death and likely torture before death as "merely incidental."
Got it!
5
Mr. Erogan is extorting money from Saudi Arabia learning from and following; though very late in the game, the lead of the United States since president Rosevelt met King Abdul Aziz in 1945. There were countless times that the autocrats of the Arabian Penunsula had violated all norms of human rights and brutally suppressed andcelimiated their subjects, starting with 1980’s uprising in the eastern part, 1987’s massacre of the pilgrims, 1989’s beheading of 16 kuwaiti pilgrims, the killing of outspoken clergymen, Baqir Al-Nimir, in 2015, the repeated massacre of pilgrims in 2015, and the agreesion on Yemen in 2015. All these attrocities were committed on the watch of the friendly US presidents. But what’s unique abou Mr. Jamal’s assassination is that unearthed andcexposed the American hypocracy committed by both the administration and the media.
6
what makes you think Turkey is having money from S.Arabia?
The saudis will not spare a dime for Turkey..
1
Yemen is the far worse Saudi crime. Aggressively aided and abetted by Obama and Trump. Where is the outrage?
36
Of course, this scandal is a political gambit by Turkish president-for-life Tayip Recep Erdogan. He is no liberal democrat. He is an old friend of the Muslim Brotherhood. The MB plays the electoral game for keeps. One man, one vote, one time whenever possible. The MB promotes the imposition of discriminatory Islamic Shariah law over all society everywhere, including the West.
6
@Observatory
Obviously you do not know the Saudi Arabia - the opponent of the Muslim Brotherhood - has from its beginning and still does apply Shariah law nilly-willy.
1
Making journalists disappear through embassy setup gets world headlines that neither country wants. It may not phase tourism in both countries, but shakes the notion of embassy safety, for journalists and politically connected people. The pressure is on future killers of journalists to make those deemed as dissident, disappear without getting caught. The flipside would be for killers to adapt Mexican standards of dumping bodies in public with lots of gunfire. On the other hand, middle easterners seem to prefer beheading, so kidnapping of journalists is likely to escalate. It is a very dangerous time for dissidents, be they journalists or not.
4
I don't see how Mr. Erdogan can play this out much longer without having to admit publicly that Turkey spies inside other countries' embassys there in Turkey.
At some point he has to pin the tail on the donkey about proof of who did what, and what kind of evidence he has - and how he got that evidence.
'Not' that I want this made easy for Trump or Kushner - I don't. But what country wants to open that no-no of spying in foreign embassys?
Or does every country do that?
4
President Trump's speeches to the UN at the end of September and last year can be read as what this administration proffers as a casus belli against Iran. My take is that President Erdogan is trying to throw a monkey wrench into that war machine. Otherwise, the world will wake up one morning to find the news is that war on Iran just began. President Trump will say he tried to tell the UN, but they were too busy laughing.
1
There are smart people that know. Since Trump doesn't take advice from smart and experienced people what difference does it make?
Erdogan is playing his card smart, the way he is singled out the king (shows how he need the king to step up) i wouldn't be surprised if i see more leaks that audio tape is their nuclear option.. this is gonna be around for while, and real focus should be how trump administration cleaning the mess of this murderous prince.
This is the struggle between the Muslim Brotherhood, and the old-fashioned tribal sheikdoms of Arabia. The Muslim Brotherhood movement is a fundamentalist movement no doubt but aims to come to power by people's support and to continue to rule by improving the lives. On the other hand the Sheikdoms are coalitions between the sheikh families and the ultra-fundamentalist Wahhabi establishment; squandering vast amounts of oil money on the lavish life styles of the sheikh families.
7
Turkey's game is the same as it's always been - the genocide of the Kurdish socio-political identity.
The Saudis just put down $100m for reconstruction of Rojava, the new democratic non-regime federation in northern Syria. Turkey is pulling every trick in the book to gain access to Rojava to destroy it and set up their jihadi caliphate. It is in Turkey's interests to drive a wedge between the Saudis and the US in Syria. Then along comes this rather convenient murder in Turkey "by the Saudis" ... The whole thing stinks.
6
Are you sure the saudis "put down 100m USD" for the construction of rojova?? .. The money should have gone via the USA who just said a week ago "you should help us..to build a garrison kurdish state in the middle east" we are not blind..the yankee should return back home.Point.
1
Of course, Erdogan does not believe in a free press, he is trying to bring the Ottoman Empire back.
This should be about the killing of Khashoggi and journalists in many parts of the world.
But instead, this is an assassination of Franz Ferdinand by Princip in steroids with much more cruelty and in the age of the internet. The geopolitical stakes are much higher than in WWI. This is the Middle East, plus Russia, China, Europe and, the USA. A mix of power, money, oil, trade and real estate.
But today, nobody will surrender and Versailles will not be as simple.
7
If this is all a ploy by Erdogan to win the heart of Donald Trump (and Jared?), he is out of luck. The Trump Family is strongly tied to Saudi Arabia through investments and their love for lavish displays of authority and wealth. Also, Donald Trump doesn’t care if a journalist gets murdered and dismembered on the other side of the world. He praised Greg Gianforte for body-slamming a reporter. He’s now backtracking awkwardly from his earlier claims that he believed MBS was innocent of Khashoggi’s murder ... as he often backtracks, without shame, when he’s said something notably stupid and false and then evidence has exposed him.
Trump likes all dictators. That’s probably Erdogan’s only hope.
6
So this was Turkey's 9/11. Up until October 2, 2018, Turkey would allow private jets full of Saudis to enter and leave Turkey at will. They now see the error of their ways in acquiescing to the money the Saudis flashed routinely. Had there been any kind of oversight by Turkey on Saudi's activities in their own country, the killing would not have happened.
2
Yes Erdogan jails reporters, so does Sisi in Egypt; but he doesn't murder them and cut them in pieces. You speculate about his motives in this--what about bringing down MBS and with him Israel and Trump's plans for war against Iran?
As far as I can see, Iran has clean hands. They didn't bomb Iraq setting in motion the rise of ISIS and the bloody war in Syria. Now they have to choose whether to resume the march to nuclear weapons, or hold to the agreement which Trump has trashed. MBS can count on Trump and the neocons behind him and now in his cabinet. Their objective is Iran, just as it was Iraq.
We Americans who are shocked by the grisly murder of a journalist to strike fear in the hearts of all journalists should be shocked by all murders, especially those caused by predatory wars.
5
@betty durso
"As far as I can see, Iran has clean hands."
This is a joke, right? Iran's hands have for many decades now been dirty.
@B. Iran doesnt attack other countries ever unlike some ME countries
I think Turkey want all out war. They want to be in charge now in the Middle East . This Khashoggi murder was horrific and Saudi Arabia still stones women for committing infidelity in public. Those countries are so evil and corrupt any politician like Trump who supports them are damaged people. I have a friend whose husband lived there as an ambassador in Saudi Arabia for several years. The ambassador have to tell the oil men we don't bargain with money under the table. It is dishonest in most cases . When Trump came on the scene I bet he has off shore accounts like Manafort with money daily flowing in it from there and Russia earned under the table.
1
Yes, this attack against the Saudi government over their reprehensible action may be to leverage them for monetary support in Erdogan's failing economy. But there may be another reason. NATO.
Erdogan with his repressive regime has been on the outs with his NATO allies, and this may be a way to get back in their good graces. In the long run NATO is more valuable to Turkey than Saudi Arabia.
2
Like many tyrants, Erdogan is an opportunist. He thinks the situation has something for him to gain. Maybe he can get the Americans on his side. There is no telling what Trump will do, so Erdogan will likely end up with nothing. Maybe Putin will get involved and make this a massive circus.
Isn't it ironic that dictator Erdogan is taking down MBS - Mr. Bone Saw.
These two fit each other perfectly. Mr. Bone Saw will presumably get back at Erdogan at some point.
It couldn't happen to a better pair of American allies. As long as the Saudis keep buying our weapons like Trump wants, I hope they keep on embarrassing themselves.
3
I have the sense that "principles" or even the general opinion of the people of any country count for little in this game.
Turkey has fully condemned Saudia Arabia's assassination of the journalist and will press for retribution unless, of course, Saudia Arabia pays out significantly. In which case money solves the problem and there's nothing to see here, right ?
I don't think so. It's hard, if not impossible to get the worms back in the can.
The American press has a long history of trying to convince us that some Saudi prince or other is a 'reformer' and that Saudi Arabia is the most valuable ally anyone ever had. For once, the true nature of this regime has become plain for all to see, and your Editorial Board is concerned about Erdogan's game?
Yes, Erdogan is pursuing his own goals, but to me the issue isn't whether he's 'outraged that such a brazen killing' took place within Turkey, but why the USA isn't outraged that such a brazen killing of an American resident and journalists for a US publication took place on NATO soil.
If Erdogan manages to engineer a deal which gets rid of Mohammad bin Salman, he will only have proven that he's a better practitioner of the art of the deal than your clueless president.
May I also remind the editorial board that the Muslim Brotherhood WON the Egyptian (and other) elections fair and square, but that of course wasn't to the taste of the US which then backed a military takeover. Clearly the US prefers Salafist extremists to populist Islam.
And no, I'm no fan of Erdogan's democracy-in-name-only either.
8
@S North
Well, you know, when an organization like the Muslim Brotherhood wins an election, it's the last election that country will see.
Pretty soon, under Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell, and a hardline Supreme Court, the United States will stop seeing elections.
If Bin Salman was channeling his King Henry, asking who'd take care of his pestilent journalist, Erdogan is channeling his Iago. Perhaps we can give him more credit than our Shakespearean antagonist usually gets, in that Erdogan has chosen to sponsor the truth to accumulate power, rather than a lie.
But it is a chess game - intrigue and checking the king in order to advance; a game of strategy, between Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey for regional power. Trump, as usual, arrived at the match ready to play Sorry! or Trouble.
For all of it, Turkey is making trouble and using justice and democratic ideals to do so. Trump is accepting trouble, having all but given permission for autocrats to kidnap and kill journalists who do not agree. Fake news, I guess.
The story plays out across the mideast as an intrigue. Trump's role is a Deus Ex Machina who doesn't bother to get involved and save the day at the end of the play.
5
1) Although the Saudi consulate is 'foreign soil' where there can be no criminal accountability to the host nation, it's likely that disposal of body parts and other cover-up steps (before and after) of the killing did take place on Turkish soil, and so Erdogan could - if he really wanted - issue arrest warrants.
2) Contrary to most reports about this killing being 'clumsy', it's likely that MBS is taking cues from Putin by deliberately leaving his signature on the killing - as warning to all other would-be critics. A style which DJT admires and hopes soon (after Nov. 6?) to be in a position to do himself (and the GOP will oblige him).
2
Whatever Erdogan's motives, his continued pressure on the Saudis, and its collateral pressure on Trump is serving to expose the unholy ties between Trump and the Saudis as his flails mindlessly looking for a way to help the Saudis cover up their crime, and to expose Kushner as the entitled, privledged, useless fraud that he has always been. And perhaps, just perhaps, his failure to do anything useful in the Middle East other than fatten his own bank account, will be the straw that finally breaks the back of the Trump criminal enterprise and brings this sorry chapter in American history to a close.
7
Yes, Erdogan may have ulterior goals.
But we should not forget the human side of the story: Humanity does not accept brutal murder. You may be able to get away with it some times but there is always the risk that you will be held responsible.
That is something people like Trump and Haspel should keep in their mind while they operate with their might-makes-right mindset.
5
Two thoughts immediately spring to mind:
Saudi Arabia so blatantly abused "diplomatic immunity" and the sovereignty of Turkey, as if it was nothing but a colony, that Dictator Erdogan is fully justified in his rage and outrage. MBS is a savage, brutal dictator, far more careless about lives than even Erdogan that his reforms are nothing but a fig leaf. Ask the dead children in Yemen.
But when Mr. Erdogan was in Washington, DC, his armed thugs, IN OUR CAPITOL CITY, beat up protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights...and our President, who tries to pass himself off as a tough guy, did nothing, was silent as a church mouse! The violation of OUR sovereignty was tolerated, though Mr. Erdogan should have been "taken to the woodshed" over it and those body guards declared PNG and expelled.
Is Erdogan playing a big-power game in the Middle East? Of course. After all, he thoroughly sank his predecessors' other game--to be the first Muslim-majority nation in the European Union, which is now as dead as Moses. And in the Middle East, Turkey is one of the 4 power bases, along with Israel, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. So instead of looking North West, he's looking South East.
This is what dictators do: They look to conquer their neighbors. MBS is doing it. Iran is doing it. Putin is doing it. Xi is doing it. I suspect at some point Duterte will be doing it, too. And Erdogan is doing it.
That is why dictatorship is a blight on the world.
18
@Dadof2 are you seriously equating a fist fight on the lawn of the Turkish embassy in DC with this gruesome murder and maiming of Mr Kashoggi??. You sound very much like the talk show hosts on Saudi TV using the most outlandish comparisons to justify this fullish criminal act.
1
where would you put the global dictator,USA ?
2
@Dadof2 dictator is not someone who wins elections democratically each single time with over 50% of the votes; after reading that nonsense from you there is no point of reading further
2
The fact that Khashoggi was gone for two weeks before Turkey had access to the Saudi Embassy leads me to believe that we will never know for sure what really happened.
It now appears that Turkey and Saudi-Arabia are exagerating their claims. The Saudi's claiming that it was an interview gone wrong, Khashoggi started a fist fight, 61 year old man vs. 18 agents, gone wrong. The Turks claim tapes of the murder, but not releasing them. No body found.
Neither of these countries are allies to the United State, despite comments to the contrary.
We should not let this murder allow us to be dragged further into the Middle-East wars. 17 years in Afghanistan is enough. Nothing has been solved by our intervention. Other than more business deals. Is that enough to keep our soldiers in danger? Business interests.
Both countries are guilty of Human Rights issues, but that is not the reason we cozy up to the Saudi's. Our State Department does not even make a pretense that this is why they are worried. It is about Arms sales.
The Saudi Royal family has already proven that they rule with an iron fist. They have already proven they are murderers and kidnapers. They have proven they do not believe in a free press. Erdogan has proven the same thing. How can we take sides with either of them?
We have very serious issues here in our own Country. Trump trying to muffle the free press, Republicans taking away Voting rights to name just two. Let's concentrate on those first.
4
Terrific analysis. Erdogan is clearly seizing his opportunity to advance his global stature while burnishing his autocrat creds at home. Thank you for including the torment within Islam for control of Suni political Islam - a fight that few Americans understand. The Saudi royal family may soon start to sweat as the transition to the next generation of leadership is faltering badly. Why the US continues to play kissy-face with a regime that is past its sell-by date is ludicrous. The US no longer needs her oil and the movement away from fossil fuels will soon bankrupt the Kingdom.
3
Whatever the motives are by Turkey I do applaud them for telling the story surrounding this horrific murder of Mr. Khashoggi. Sometimes the most unlikely person will speak for you when you can no longer speak for yourself. Murder is murder and Trump who spent days not even mentioning his name and distorting the truth of who Mr. Khashoggi. This is just an example of a nationalist which is code for white supremacy and the men in the grey outfits that Mr. Trump has embraced. Mr. Khashoggi understood the world as it was and wanted to be a man of peace and the truth.
We would never of seen those video tapes if it wasn't for the President of Turkey, at least the loved ones of Mr. Khashoggi can find a little peace, it is terrible. As long as Trump and Pat Robinson so called leaders think only about hate,white supremacy, greed and money no ones life is worth anything which is why we are in endless wars. Trump the racist would react differently if his son was harmed in an embassy but he has limited understanding of the world in which he is a member of.
2
OVER-REACH It remains to be seen whether Erogan's gambit vis-a-vis the Kashoggi slaughter seems to be a harbinger of more bloodshed, rather than less. The last thing anyone needs in that region is another conflict; even less more armed conflict. I don't see it giong that far. Though I wonder who's going to come out on top? I suspect that would depend on the affiliation and perspective of the armchair generals. Or is it the two of them speaking their lines on the word stage, as the seconds of their 15 minutes of fame are ticking away.
1
The audio and even video evidence of the murder that purportedly exists suggests that Turkey planned in advance for an incident, otherwise such evidence would not exist. A relevant question is why Turkey permitted the grisly killing to continue if it was tracking it in real time if Kashoggi was a friend of Erdogan?
Such details aside King Salman must address the incident properly by punishing the offenders and not damaging the Saudi state.
This incident creates the opportunity for the U.S. to reassess its grossly irrational decision to withdraw from the Iran Nuclear Deal (JCPOA) and impose sanctions costing its allies in Europe tens of billions. All verifiable evidence points to Iran being compliant with the JCPOA. It is not developing nuclear weapons. Iran's destabilizing actions in the region were not the subject of the JCPOA. However, Trump's withdrawal has made partnership with the EU to address issues with Iran impossible.
The U.S. should rejoin JCPOA and invite the EU with the UK to address non-nuclear concerns with Iran. Since the U.S. withdrew from JCPOA largely to please Saudi Arabia rejoining the agreement would send a strong signal that the U.S. will pursue its national interests and global responsibilities. Saudi Arabia can interpret the decision as it wishes but the U.S. would then be better positioned to deal with all sides .
7
Tough choice for Trump - a despotic autocrat in a democracy (possible role model?) or a despotic wealthy prince who lives lavishly (Trump's preferred world - ostentation taken to the obscene level).
I hear Trump saying it was "the worst cover-up ever," not as evidence that he will side against the prince, but rather as a criticism only of the way it was handled. I find it hard to imagine that Trump will do anything other than help to offer the Saudis cover. A year from now we will be at business as usual.
55
@Anne-Marie Hislop Excuse me, but the Saudis have been the Saudis, complete with oppression and barbaric customs, for decades. And for decades most western governments and US POTUS's have ALL just looked the other way. Trump has only been POTUS for a little over a year and a half.
3
@Anne-Marie Hislop There was no genuine cover-up attempt --> MBS takes his cues from Putin, who likes to leave his signature on killings as warning to other would-be critics.
4
@Anne-Marie Hislop Not every thing has to be seen in an anti-Trump way. The relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia is a long one, sustained by the two previous presidents Bush and Obama. Saudi Arabia made large donations to the Clinton Foundation.
So it isn't simply a case of "bad Trump".
1
"Turkey has furthered the cause of justice"
Maybe so, but that is certainly not why Erdogan is doing this. He's got motives, and they are not Truth, Justice, and the American Way, as Superman used to say.
"even as the Trump administration gave every sign of longing to look away"
Bashing Trump before the election is why this is so popular just now. Lots of disgusting injustice slides by when it isn't so convenient to call it out. Every country in the region has proof of that repeatedly.
But the US government is looking away for the same reasons Turkey is focused on this. It is about those other, real motives driving Turkey, which also drive the US.
It is about Kurds, and Syria, and Iran, and the Palestinians. It is about the Sunni world of hundreds of millions, leadership of whom could be powerful and so profitable.
Erdogan wants those things. The US wants MBS to have them, because he has cut a deal to do as the US wants on all of them. Turkey is opposing what the US wants on all of them.
So truth and justice are used against the US too here, against its goals. That is because of US goals, which have been bipartisan for decades, not just because of Trump.
We needs to see the problem. It is our policy, not just this particular President as he blunders about for the last two years doing pretty much the same things in that region.
25
Superb comment, Mark. Right on the button. C.f. flag over Arabia in the picture heading the column. Erdogan is playing a high stakes game for reassertion if control over the Arab Middle East. He has various non-Arab players on his side, Iran...He can also easily get back on to historic Turkish-Israeli friendly terms.
3
Erdogan might also have thought the unveiling Jamal Khashoggi's murder might derail the arms sales to Saudi Arabia. The arms deal, a sop to Saudi Arabia organized by the Obama administration, as the Iran nuclear deal was concluded further emboldens Saudi Arabia as the expense of other regional powers, like Turkey. Erdogan has a lot to gain from outing the Saudis. The dangerous part of this game, however, are the unforeseen consequences. Saudi leadership are not likely to forgive and forget; it's not their style.
5
The editorial is written with a certain degree of bias against Mr. Erdogan. Lets assume that instead of his present reaction, Mr. Erdogan would have stayed silent or kept his voice low in exchange for few billions of dollars from Saudis. Then this very news paper would have been criticizing him for that. Is Erdogan trying to get a political advantage because of this tragedy? Absolutely he is. But we should remember that he is a politician first and foremost. Which Politician or leader of a country will not try to use this tragedy to his advantage? Nationally or Internationally? I guess none.
15
I asked the question yesterday morning What is Erdogan's plan? Having thought over it and read a little more I think Erdogan's audacious plan is to align with Iran, Qatar, Russia and China as a front against the West which has been aligned with Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt. Erdogan also would like to peel off Western support to the Kurds in Turkey and exert revenge for the attempted coup. As the reign of the last of the Saudi Kings of the generation of the sons of the founding King of Saudi Arabia is about to end and the torch is being passed to the new generation of prince Mohammed Bin Salman Al Saud (MBS) who is likely to have closer relations with Israel, Erdogan sees the dynamics he does not like.
Khashoggi was just a pawn who should never have entered the trap of a pack of wolves in the Saudi consulate and may even have been doing Erdogan's bidding thinking that Erdogan would be able to protect him every where on Turkish soil.
The middle east is a complex place and the complexity has increased exponentially with the death of Khashoggi and new order in the middle east.It will be interesting to see what the future will be. Que sera sera. What will be will be but it will not be the same. The latent rivalry between the regional powers has openly surfaced.
Trump administration should be cautious and not be tempted to a knee jerk reaction that could fall casualty to NATO member, Turkey's game and further enhance Putin's position as the leader of the opposition to NATO.
8
Turkey is still a NATO member and a strategic partner of the USA in the area, notwithstanding Erdogan's authoritarian methods of managing democracy. There was no formal word against Erdogan from the Trump administration.
Saudi Arabia is another close and longstanding ally of the USA and the US Treasury Secretary is there to attend a conference chaired by MBS, as the Prince is called.
So, summing up, with or without the American assistance, Turkey and Saudis will play down the issue and find out appropriate solutions to close quietly the dossier.
The media will stop to follow it, since the silence will the better way to satisfy the strategic interests of the USA, UK and so on.
Evidence for this? This morning on the BBC waves a former British Defense Secretary just confirmed that no country can give up the possibility of making arms business with a rich client such as Saudi Arabia. If a country opts for human rights, another country will decide otherwise and will get profitable contracts.
That is the way the world keeps going on and the Western democracies are well accustomed to this practice.
5
The editorial board is correct regarding Mr. Erdogan and his ultimate goals.
Among the things the Saudis learned from all this was that in the future they should not take down their perceived Saudi enemies in Turkey.
This was all manna from heaven for Mr. Erdogan and he will milk it to the absolute limit.
11
". . . rally the Turkish people around a common enemy, the time-tested tool of the autocrat." This pretty much sums it up.
18
Sure - but all the same, the exposure of the crime is a service to all - regardless of the aim and true nature of Erdogan.
2
Notwithstanding Mr. Erdogan's demand that justice be served for the brutal assassination of Khashoggi, and Trump's hot and cold posturing, to scheming politicians this an opportunity for textbook maneuvering to collect chips from the Saudis for leverage.
Erdogan, as the editorial surmises, wants Saudi help to bail out his sputtering economy. That Khashoggi was a close personal friend of Erdogan, and that he was killed in Istanbul are winning cards for the Turkish tyrant. It substantially ups the ante for the eventual resolution of the Crown Prince's "my bad."
Likewise for Trump. The Khashoggi murder is a golden opportunity for him to further ingratiate his son-in-law and himself with the Saudi royal family. It's almost as good as Trump laying hands on the king's glowing orb or his rendition of the macarena performed with ritual swords.
If you parse Trump's "outrage" he's troubled more by the botched cover-up and feeble dissembling by the Saudis than he is shocked at the assassination by bone saw of a prominent "enemy of the people." He's told his Saudi handlers that he needs to feign outrage and gesture menacingly (there's an election around the corner) or he won't be credible when the Saudis offer to pay all of Jared's mortgages and also say they're sorry that one of MBS' henchmen mistook him for Henry II wishing out loud the violent dispatch of the Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Becket.
Cynical? Callow?
Only if pigs can fly and Trump is President.
58
@Yuri Asian Excuse me, but weren't the Bushes also close friends with the Saudis? What about numerous PM's in the UK, and probably other EU countries?
2
There was a time not very long-ago when Erdogan supporters here in the U.S. were loudly cheering on his flotillas against Israel.
Where are these self-styled "progressives" now when ordinary Turkish citizens would like to a see a few flotillas launched in his direction?
6
So admitted torturer CIA Head Gina Haspel is the US rep in dealing with Turkey on this matter? Holy optics! The US furor over Khasshogi's brutual killing used to appear to be pretty much a quibble over methodology not outcomes. For decades the US has been almost boastful of its extrajudicial killing of alleged national security threats outside its territory. But when US Presidents signed off on these questionably prepared death lists drones were the methodology of choice. Drones people read about and rapidly move on to the latest NBA scores. Bone saws... stick in the mind bring the reality of one person's brutal death forward and don't allow the perpetrators or a population of enablers through inaction the necessary psychological "distance" from the actual murder. Again no quibble re results. It's methodology and how much it is rubbed in the collaborating population's face. The US does not want its nose rubbed into what it's alliance with this medieval gender apartheid state entails. As to what Turkey is up to? Well, I think it's pretty safe to conclude that Turkey very much like the US in this scenario is pursuing their national interests in whatever ways they can all while trying to appear to hold an increasingly precarious moral high ground.
96
Turkey’s national interests?? Please. Erdogan just wants a bigger slice of the global despotism pie. This is all a mobster turf war. From “Trump” on down.
1
@Belasco You are spot on with your interpretation of the outrage to the Khashoggi murder. I would also like to add that the production and sale of military drones grease a lot of pockets compared to bone saws.
2
Erdogan is not defending principles – it’s laughable that Turkey, of all states, is among those declaiming “I’m astonished, ASTONISHED, that gambling is going on in here!”
For years Turkey and the West have grown increasingly distant, the doing of Erdogan. While their economy remained wearable, this was fine by him. He always wanted an Islamist “republic”, he didn’t want to draw distinctions between “good Kurds” and “bad Kurds”, and he found it increasingly convenient to cry “the West is Satan” in stoking the masses.
He realized that he’d overplayed his hand with the West. Entirely coincidentally (not), his economy is cratering and he finds he needs help addressing that. There was early thought that his momentary lapse in excoriating Saudi Arabia was due to efforts to secure low-interest loans in return for shutting off the spigot of evidentiary revelations over the Khashoggi murder. I’d say that he got greedy and that the Saudis told him to go fish -- so far. Consequently, we see the spigot opening again.
His problem was that he was so invested in his posturing against the West that walking it back was going to be dicey. Then, this pot of gold dropped into his lap and he wasn’t slow in perceiving its value in getting back in the West’s good graces. Expect to see announcements of increased aid by Western powers to Turkey (not immediately by the U.S., given our relationship with the Saudis), and new loans extended at rates favorable to Turkey.
This isn’t rocket science.
16
This would have been an appropriate follow up. In about several months. To do now seems merely doing the Saudi regime's bidding.
12
As the article points out, it is unlikely in the extreme that Turkey's motives are pure. I'm sure they are outraged that such a brazen murder took place in their country, but I suspect that there will be a quid pro quo here somewhere.
I suspect there will be much "Klang und Wut" out of Trump, and not much real action. Trump is a subscriber to Realpolitik, rather than high principles, there is too much money at stake for him to seriously damage our relations with Saudi Arabia. Besides they did a real good job stroking his ego on his visit, and that makes them 'good people' in Trump's book.
All of this of course poses the question of what it would take for Trump to act decisively? Interfering in a US election, or an outright murder is apparently not enough, even when Kim called him names he wound up making nice with him. Trump routinely lies, he cheats on his wife, he abuses his staff, is there any principle there that he is willing to fight for? Or is it all situational, meaning whatever he thinks benefits him? We seem to have an amoral and possibly cowardly president.
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@Bruce1253 If we were to make a list of Pols and CEO's who never lied or cheated on their wives, would that be a long list?
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Erdogan dealt with a botched coo and now an assination of a USA journalist on its soil by a foreign government. It's also coping with the Kurds, Syria, the Russians and Trump and the EU. I'd laud Turkey for coping as well as it's doing all things considered. Erdogan may have more respect for journalists then Trump. For sure he didn't defend the Saudis as our Donald did as this tragic drama unfolded. Give Erdogan a little space and time NYTs and I bet they turn out to be our best ally in the region.
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It is refreshing to see the Times realize that Turkey is playing a game. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and other assorted Muslim nations, have no concept of the rule of law, as we, in the West see it. They all worship a strongman, ready to trip him (and its always a him) up at the first opportunity and declare their aliegance to another strongman. That strongman only sees the West as an area that he can manipulate, for their own benefit. Any weakness in their adversary is seen as an opening to inflict damage. There has not been any advancement of democracy, or recognition of human rights in all Muslim nations, even after the "Arab Spring", or W's sacrificing of American lives to bring democracy to the Middle East. Turkey is threatening her neighbor Greece and Cyprus, at every opportunity. Turkey takes hostages of innocent people and acts as a bully to Germany, France, Italy, or whoever is the chosen one at the time.
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I agree. Still, it benefits us for the story to have come out.
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Thanks for this. Great insight into why Turkey has orchestrated the outrage. (Outrage is appropriate, but Turkey has been gloating. )
Also, my understanding is that an embassy is the "soil" of the embassy's country. As such the crime was committed in Saudi Arabia and Turkey has no say (other than to expel the Saudis.) Did I get that correct?
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@Sailboat Captain
No, that is a myth. The consul has diplomatic immunity and the building derives immunity from that, but the persons committing the crime are not automatically immune to prosecution because they were in the building. The crimes were committed on Turkish soil so the perpetrators are to be tried in Turkey, though if the Saudis don't want to extradite them after the official request by Turkey there is nothing to be done about it, but then again more losing face in the diplomatic playing field results.
Diplomatic immunity is a very shady concept, but most countries abide to it only breaching it at the peril of severe reputation damage and it's unpredictable consequences.
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@Sailboat Captain
Only to a certain extent. It is my understanding that you cannot simply start killing people. Even in an embassy.
@Sailboat Captain Actually it was the Consulate in Instanbul and not the embassy in Ankara. Consulates don't enjoy extra territoriatlity.
It is very likely that Erdogan is playing the murder for his own benefit. However, he's probably doing us a favor too by highlighting the dangerous Saddam-like nature of the Saudi crown prince.
As Trump rightly said earlier that Saudi regime wouldn't last two weeks without American support, US can choose who it wants to deal with in Saudi. It's a stark warning for US to stop betting on the wrong horse.
Maybe, for a change US can start thinking strategically and not tactically. I'm not holding my breath on this one though.
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Saudi Arabia by killing Mr. Khassoghi in Turkey has given Erdogan one of the biggest gifts of his political career.
There are talks of Erdogan trying to trade the truth for Saudi money. Let me tell you that is not the case. Erdogan allies in this crisis are : Qatar, the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran, Conservatives and religious leaders in Saudi Arabia.
The idea that Mr. Erdogan is trying to extort money from Saudi Arabia is nonsense. He could get that same money from Qatar that has been bankrolling Turkey since its currency began falling. Qatar wants M.B.S gone
Turkey goal is to get rid of M.B.S. The prince who will replace in this case M.B.S will be grateful to Erdogan, so will all the Saud who would like nothing but to get rid of M.B.S w
Erdogan will not let an opportunity like this pass without weakening M.B.S who is the enemy number one of the Muslim Brotherhood.
In this confrontation, Erdogan will not stop until M.B.S is gone, for M.B.S is now like a wounded lion and he has to be finished off( politically). A wounded lion is very dangerous and Erdogan knows that.
Imagine what M.B.S would do to Turkey if he manages to get out of this crisis unharmed. Erdogan will not let that happen.
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@Chaks Makes sense that he wants MBS gone above all else. That Erdogan is not acting purely from moral outrage is also clear, given that he encouraged his entourage to attack protesters in DC. Not a brutal assassination, of course, but he is no fan of the freedom to criticize leaders.
@Chaks
This is the most insightful comment.
In stating, "The Turkish Lira has been falling steadily..." the NYT is not entirely accurate. Since hitting a low of nearly 7 Lira to the US Dollar in the middle of August this year, the Turkish Lira has been rising against the Dollar to its current level of about 5.7 Lira to the Dollar. Admittedly this is weaker than the exchange in recent years of about 4 Lira to the Dollar, but it indicates a strengthening trend, not a steady decline.
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@Reed Erskine Did Trump rescind the doubling of metal tariffs after Turkey released the American pastor?
Saudi leadership in Sunni Muslim world
has been toxic. One may not admire Erdogan,
but he is doing well to bring Saudis down
a few notches. Saudis have spread the
fanatical version of Islam which spawned
several terrorist groups when none existed
before 1979. They encouraged and financed
8 years Iraq-Iran war. Their barabric war in
Yemen, human rights abuses, weak legal
system without due process and public beheadings don't show the desirable
conduct that will endear them to sensible
and thoughtful people. They have invested
lot of money in holy sites to create decent
facilities for muslim pilgrims who descend there
in millions and are impressed by the modernization of holy sites. This public
relations coup give them a heft in muslim
world who are deprived of democracy and
human rights in their home countries to lament
their absence in Saudi Arabia. Erdogan's
advantages will be lost if MBS is replaced
or his powers significantly curbed.
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We should not care about his goal. We should mind our own goals, and it just so happens that these goals seem aligned.
Don't fight reality. It will bite back twice as hard.
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