Why are the migrants coming to the USA? That is the real issue. The root cause is that life in their home countries has become unbearable to dangerous. The cause of the situation in their home countries is predominately due to the growth of the wealth and power of drug gangs. Generally these gangs are better funded and armed than the governments where they exist. Where do they get their money? Largely from Americans who spend in excess of $10-Billion annually.
With these gangs de-facto running the Central American nations, nothing but the gangs and the operations they need for their support can sustain themselves in these countries. Yes, drug use and abuse is a problem in America, the gangs have turned these nations into inhospitable places for non-criminal humans to live.
We need to stop the demand for illegal drugs here in the USA and understand that it is the drug-abuser who funds the gangs that is the real root-cause of the problem. Yes, addiction is a sickness but the addiction is also funding international criminal organizations. We’ve tried stopping the drugs at the source but with over $10-Billion being offered there is no reason for the producers to stop producing.
Those non-gang members seek asylum in the very country that is causing the problems in their home nations. Ironic, perhaps. But also a wake-up call to Americans that we cannot ignore our own problems by blaming others.
5
Secretly, Trump & co are happy to see the caravan. This visual worths a 1000 campaign commercials. The question is: the caravan doesn't happen spontaneously. But who incited them to march up north? If Trump & the Repubs, and the rest of America for that matter, are concerned about the border at all, they need investigate that instead.
This is not to say the ACLU and others shouldn't help migrants who got stranded, but they too need to help to solve the real problem, many of these migrants will die a needless death along the way.
Y'all are all so full of it. These people are being paid to come here. Open your eyes, the only time they are walking is for a photo op, the rest of the time they are on trains, in buses and trucks, paid for by who. Ask yourselves, who was issuing those packets of money being passed out to them? Who was buying them to come all at once right before election day? Open your eyes to reality. Most of those children are not even with parents, but then most of them coming aren't children anyway are they, someone just wants to keep saying it so they can use them as a political pawn.
10
Democrats do not want open borders. Believe me.
So GOP and Trump STOP lying.
3
I cannot say that all those people are "refugees" but IMHO they should be process and be treat as a proper human way.The determination of their status is not so much of a job ; here is the definition of a "refugee":“someone who is unable or unwilling to return to their country of origin owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion.”So just do the processing; it is whatthe UN treaty provide for.
3
This has to stop.
If the policy of separating children from their parents is a deterrent, use it.
Sorry.
These caravans are unacceptable.
Apply.
Wait in line like everyone else.
We need to Fix our immigration policy.
Then we need to Enforce the laws ASAP
22
@Ziegfield, the world considers it against humanity - inhumane.
And it doesn't work. Period.
2
This is bad news, except for the GOP. Sigh. Fellow Democrats, please understand that it is not heartless for a nation to have immigration laws. Thousands of poor, uneducated people trying to force their way into our country will only scare people into voting Republican. And we should not constantly make excuses for people who skip the immigration line. This is one of the reasons Trump is president. Democrats must oppose illegal immigration in no uncertain terms. It does not mean kids should be put in cages, but it does mean thousands of poor Hondurans can’t just cross our border and expect to stay here and flood our labor market, use our emergency rooms, and crowd our schools. NO.
22
Dems do oppose illegal immigration. Never heard a Democrat say that he or she is for illegal immigration. That's a stupid lie promoted by Trump and his GOP cronies.
Most illegals do not just walk across the border, because our border is pretty well protected. The truth is that many illegals come legally and then overstay their visas. That's why a wall on the Southern border is not the solution. When people cross legally from say Canada and work as ski instructors, that's illegal immigration too. And no, a southern wall won't stop that. If we had our own skilled ski instructors our ski slopes wouldn't hire foreigners without visas. So what we really need is a solution to people who overstay their visas. And a faster way to process people who apply legally.
The Dems have always acknowledged the fact that a shadow economy exists because we have people who work hard but who are currently here illegally. Many have been brought here years ago as children. Today we call them the Dreamers. But these young people, even though they want to pay taxes and contribute to our economy by working hard, are unable to do so because of their status. The Dems are actually saying give them a path to legal status and let's ensure they have an opportunity to pay their taxes like the rest of us.
2
All of those of European dissent are immigrants, no if, ands, or buts, your ancestors came here for the same reasons these people are coming here, those who have a problem with black and brown immigrants are hypocrites and out right racists.
4
America: I am so grateful that Canada has reasonably managed its borders to avoid the anarchy and chaos of America's immigration system.
America's inability to control its borders stems from the fact that both the Republican and Democratic parties cater to corporate and consumer American which craves cheap labour. And don't kid yourself, the so-called compassionate Democratic state of California relies on cheap labour via the millions of undocumented immigrants as much as anywhere else.
Too many American employers and consumers profit from the slave labour provided by these illegal immigrants in the same manner as work done by slaves in the 18th and 19th centuries. The difference today is that employers and consumers attempt to sound virtuous by using the pretext that Americans will not take these jobs. Yeah, let's see how many of you high-minded people would be willing to work in sweat shops for wages that you couldn't possibly live on with any dignity.
High immigration - legal or illegal - creates a large labour pool whereby employers can pay workers low wages while consumers get their fruits, vegetables, nannies, housekeepers and landscapers on the cheap. Both parties are complicit in maintaining this pool of slave labour.
If America was fair, it would close the U.S. border and force all employers to adhere to the e-verify program. It should do so because it should be prioritizing the welfare of its own citizens and legal residents before anyone else.
22
e-verify is a 1990's joke.
3
We can't even take care of the people we have in this country.
This reminds me of a family, who can't support the two children they already have, but think it is a good idea have one or two more children.
21
Estimates of refugees from global climate change is expected to reach 600 million by 2030 with half being relocated within their own country borders, but the other half having to become climate refugees. Most of those will be moving to countries with space and clean water, so a couple thousand will seem small compared to a couple million a month heading to the border in just over a decade from now.
The US needs to work on improving its migration flow, not try and put roadblocks. The Berlin Wall came down, so will the US border if they put up a wall. They need to invest in a process and plan, not a recipe for disaster.
3
I usually come to the comment section for solace, but find few friends here tonight. A wall will not stop immigrants. A war will not stop them either. They have nothing to lose. They don't want a handout. They just want to work and feed their families who have starved at the hands of corrupt and violent governments. Did any of you read about the starving dying babies in Venezuela?! The same and worse atrocities abound elsewhere. We need a reckoning for their oppressors, aid for these people in the short-term and education for them for the long-term. They want to rebuild at home, not live here under eternal judgment and discrimination. And we're not that great! We're just closer than Canada!
4
It’s strange how this is described as an elaborate, intractable problem. It isn’t.
In response to this surge, the US should temporarily suspend all immigration from Central America Once Central American nationals get in the habit of following our rules, we can open immigration back up on a limited basis
Simple, effective.
26
Trump loves these optics and whipping up fears. given the timing, I can't see how the Democrats or George Soros would pick this timing to spur this migration. Sounds more like some others spurred this on, maybe Republican factions or how about Russia?
1
When progressives and liberals keep telling people that only fascists take serious measures to control the borders, then the people will elect fascists to seriously control the borders.
18
The timing of this caravan is highly suspect, coming right before the midterm elections. It’s an ironic perversion of logic that trump claims the Democrats are behind that timing - nobody with a functioning brain would believe this event would help Democrats win. But it’s very likely to assist the dystopian Trumpian agenda.
Democrats need to speak out! They have to realize that this caravan is very bad optics, and I get the feeling from reading hundreds of comments on NYTimes and WaPo, that even self identified progressives are not on board with this caravan or any illegal migration into the U.S. Why are Democrats so clueless? Must we suffer this horrifying political swing to the right, just because of this one toxic issue?
10
I feel this news item and it's hyper inflated presence in the media is merely enhancing fear among Americans before an important election. As the media amplifies the fear they amplify the prospects for GOP and Trump victories. Yet again the media may get these people elected again. Bad for the country and certainly bad for any immigrant least of all those being covered daily as bait for a racist and his supporters.
5
If this policy is a problem then they should either stay where they are or go somewhere else besides the United States. I strongly support legal immigration and believe it should be expanded and accelerated, but ILLEGAL immigration is just what the name indicates. If they are seeking asylum they should do so as the law indicates, go to an embassy or consulate in their home country and apply. To those of you writing condemning this policy, why don’t you try sponsoring some of these people. They could live with you in your house, you could feed them and provide medical care. Talk is cheap, really cheap.
14
The caravan of refugees deserve our concern and care. They, however, I suspect are instilling fear and anger among the trump cult. And that will encourage them to vote for trump.
1
Now Trump is cutting off monetary support to the countries where the circumstance are so intolerable that citizens feel compelled to flee at great physical and social expense.
Hey Donald Trump, how about "increasing support" to these countries to stem the problems that cause such a desperate exodus.
Decreasing support just feeds into the cycle we are witnessing.
1
@GP
Brilliant. Just what we want... more American taxpayer subsidies flushed down a black hole...aka the pockets of corrupt Central American officials and drug cartels.
17
The photographs, even those cherry-picked by the papers, show that this caravan is primarily comprised of young men. Young men who should be using their strength and determination to reform and/or rebuild their own countries.
7000 and counting all share the same problem, and now they know each other. Their forbears were revolutionaries who, though outnumbered, threw off colonial chains and won control of their countries. Though the results were mixed at best, what is the sense in taking the most energetic population and heading for the one country where it would be most disadvantaged and least competitive--economically, culturally, linguistically?
However far this caravan gets, each photo you see will be a mere prop for politicians of all persuasions--props to help them secure easy votes and easy cash. And don't think the absorption of essentially 100 frat houses wouldn't lead to issues in the age of #MeToo (or is that just something that happens to Hollywood starlets?).
Imagine you were marching with 7000 compatriots, united by condition and cause. What would you do? Swiftly redress your problems together, or run away towards exploitation and dependence?
11
So the argument that this is the Democrats fault is simply saying it’s their fault for not embracing the ideas of a lunatic. How about a bi-partisan solution? That will never happen by just pointing fingers at each other.
2
What’s interesting about the accompanying photo is the obviously visible number of young healthy men, save for the one little boy tangled up in string on someone’s shoulders. Not exactly a picture meant to tug on heartstrings nor refute Trump’s supposed claim of possible “bad hombres”. How anyone can call anyone else a liar these days I have no idea, for nobody really knows anything for sure.
16
Most of us who congregate here at The New York Times to comment on the news will look at the refugee caravan and see the human suffering. We'll ask how Donald Trump and his core supporters can be callous to that. We'll urge the more moderate of our compatriots to look beyond their anxiety about immigration.
But that's only our view. The approach of the caravan, a visible stream of people heading for the US border, is going to work in the Republicans' favor in the midterm elections. This October surprise is not the refugees' fault, nor is it the Republicans' doing. It's an ironic and potentially fateful twist in the course of history.
4
@Longestaffe You are so right. Trump should be paying these people in the Caravan because the Republicans are gaining votes every time this Caravan hits the news.
7
Wow, look at that photograph. If that doesn’t stir some primal survival mechanism inside your gut, I don’t know what will.
There are 6 BILLION destitute people living in poor, overpopulated, often violent third world countries....just like the migrants in this photograph...and a great many of them are on the march towards what used to be our sovereign borders. What are you willing to do to defend your future, and your children’s future, in the face of this onslaught. You’d better think fast!
Wake up, fellow citizens.
22
When will the US and Mexico work with the Central American countries to address the issue prompting these people to leave?
8
Is it really by chance that this caravan has made its appearance just before the election? Another October surprise for the benefit of the Republicans. Trumpies promoting it? Russians. Seems awfully coincidental.
3
This is the Trump Caravan in the lead up to the midterm elections. They are being paid and organized by GOP operatives. Are Americans that stupid? Well at least Democrats are proving themselves to be, echoing failing open border stances that the electorate at large clearly oppose. The day after the election, the caravan will disappear, the Republican retaining both houses and celebrating that the pulled off the political stunt of the century.
4
Voluntary family separations? Isn't that what Trump called each of his divorces?
3
I'm beyond impressed by the size and tenacity of this caravan. At the same time, I can't help but wonder how much quicker their lives would improve if they turned the whole thing around and confronted their own governments instead.
18
Help stop Pharaoh Trump's army at the Rio Grande. Christians, Jews and Muslims unite and call on your God to let the migrants in.
4
Easy fix: Mexico follows its own laws and apprehends all these immigrants that illegally crossed over into Mexico...thousands of miles from the U.S. border.
For Mexico not to do that indicates how much contempt that country has for the U.S., which we already know is the case since America now houses and pays for 1/3 of Mexico - its poorest and least educated, least skilled and often most violent. Yeh us. Let's stop this insanity by stopping all government funds going to Mexico, as well as all money transfers from the U.S. back to Mexico by Mexicans living in the U.S.
Then, stop all taxpayer monies going to Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala (roughy $185 BILLION per year).
15
The Democrats, and illegal immigrant advocate attorneys, have turned a bad situation into one where there are no options.
400,000 are stopped at the border, every month. The Democrats, and illegal immigrant advocates, have made it so that each costs us tens of thousands of dollars to process.
We are wasting billions of dollars a month on this nonsense. And every dollar could be going towards helping our own citizens.
Every house occupied by an illegal immigrant is a house that our citizens can not live in. It is a homeless vet. It is a single mother living in a car.
Every hospital visit by an illegal immigrant is an appointment a citizen cannot take. It is a kid who needs help not getting it. It is a vet suffering from PTSD not getting an appointment.
Every job taken by an illegal immigrant is a job where the wage does not have to increase. It is a job a citizen cannot work. It is an over-supply of labor which results in wage suppression.
Every car on the road driven by an illegal immigrant is space that cannot be used by a citizen. It is more congestion. It is a longer commute.
Every illegal immigrant from a low emitting country that comes into the US means more CO2 emissions. It means climate change will be harder to try to stop. It means a worse future for our children.
The standard of living and quality of life in this country continues to drop. Importing labor so we can exploit it is not the answer. We must take care of our own first and always.
30
@WillT26, Great comment, thanks.
Do not forget that every ESL class given to illegals in public schools is tax money taken away from our students regular education. These bilingual teachers also cost more for these English as a Second Language classes.
11
Build the wall, at the border.
the sooner the better.
And use pepper spray and water cannon, at the border.
"Inhumane"??
Nonsense.
If they want to fling themselves at a wall,
or march into pepper spray or water cannon,
that's their decision, and they bear the responsibility.
If they push their kids and pregnant women in front of them,
that's their decision, and they bear the responsibility.
Right of "asylum"?
Not for "domestic violence".
Not for "gang violence".
Not for poverty.
"International treaties" do not say they have such a right.
And even if they did, then the treaties can be renounced.
Most treaties explicitly allow unilateral renunciation.
Right to make their claim at the U.S. border/port of entry
(so that they get the benefit of the excessively assiduous legal procedure prevalent in the USA)?
Change the laws so they don't.
"International treaties" say they do?
Renounce the treaties.
Most treaties explicitly allow unilateral renunciation.
They can stay in Mexico.
What Mexico then does with them is between them and Mexico.
27
Democrats must abolish ICE and embrace the Central American caravan.
6
@Common Ground
Would any real Democrat who had any common sense at all make a suggestion like this, just two weeks before the midterms?
Common Ground wrote:
"Democrats must abolish ICE and embrace the Central American caravan."
14
@Robert,
They won't say it until after the election- if they get a majority.
A Democratic Congress = open borders and immediate citizenship for 22 million illegal immigrants.
That will be a permanent Democratic majority! Just in time for the 2020 census too.
2
There is no quick fix to the problem of illegal immigrants in this country because the solutions lie in their countries, not ours. So long as there are poverty, crimes and deaths in their countries, they will keep coming. This is the reality of a globalized world.
The compassionate progressives need to acknowledge our limitation in how many of these people we can absorb. They need to know a lot of Americans are fearful, rightly or not, they are fearful of their culture and resources being invaded. Some of it may be due to racism, some of it is simply too much change too quickly and therefore destabilizing to our whole political dynamics, and allow the real bad people like Trump to take over.
The longer term real solution is for us to have foreign policies that stop enabling corruptions and crimes in these poor nations, but promote uncorrupt government and stable economy. But that is a talk order isn't it, since we have trouble doing so here.
So in the mean time, stop demonizing Americans who are fearful of illegal immigrants, racist or not. Listen to them, acknowledge their view points and hopefully persuade them to elect a government that can implement the real long term solutions, which definitely would not be the GOP.
12
The Marshall plan, 70 years ago, showed us a valuable way to deal with this: through aid to damaged, war- and strife-torn nations. These people are trying to come here to find better lives. Help the to find better lives at home.
Trump's other plans, to cut foreign aid to Central American states is just as short-sighted and counter-productive. When in history - of which he is woefully ignorant - has it ever been shown that increasing the severity of the problem has lead to solving it?
6
@Nathaniel Brown Marshall plan would only work for countries that are willing, indeed eager, to change. The situation in Central America is not Germany of 70 years ago. Foreign aid in deeply corrupt countries becomes the tool of the oppressive elites or governments. It makes it harder for potential democratic forces to prevail. (I'm not talking about all aid, just direct financial aid. Medical and other non-financial, non-military foreign aid is good.)
11
They can be stopped.
The laws can be changed,
the sooner the better.
The treaties can be renounced,
the sooner the better.
Meanwhile administrative practice can be tightened,
the sooner the better,
Grounds for asylum should not include "domestic violence", nor "gang violence". And not poverty.
Even for alleged political and racial and religious persecution,
admission should not be granted to anyone crossing from a country (e.g. Mexico) that is not the county that practices the alleged persecution.
22
So, your telling me those in this multi-thousand member mob of, largely, able bodied young men, are all refuges fleeing the terrors of a few loosely organized criminal gangs?
Only the New York Times is credulous enough to believe that. Deputize the young men just in the photos I've seen and you could easily root out the gangs, if the civil authorities are incapable of doing it.
But of course, it is all nonsense. These are people who are coming here to avail themselves of taxpayer-funded schools, emergency rooms, food stamps and other social services. Why not? It's gotta beat working as a laborer in Guatemala. Of course, tax payers are already supporting 22 million illegal immigrants, with no end in sight. I guess if the Times has its way that tide will continue until there isn't any difference between Guatemala and the US.
39
Exactly
6
Concentration camps for kids. White america quivers in fear. Pathetic racists.
8
@Joe B. But Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson, who is not white, and President Barack Obama, who is not white, bought or leased the big box stores and equipped them with wire enclosures to separate illegal immigrants by age and gender.
Secretary Johnson said "We felt it was necessary".
Do you feel President Obama and Secretary Johnson are pathetic racists?
"Moments after Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson took his first tour of a southern Arizona detention facility housing about 900 migrant children in makeshift cages Wednesday, he had a message for Central American parents who are on the brink of sending their children illegally and alone into the United States.
"This journey is a dangerous one, and at the end of it there is no free pass," he said. "There are no permisos for children, for your children, who come to the United States. The journey from Central America into south Texas is over a thousand miles long. It is hot. It is treacherous and you are placing your child in the hands of a criminal smuggling organization. It is not safe." http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ff-arizona-immig-20140626-story.html
14
@Joe B., if the safety and well-being of these migrating refuge seeking parents and children is the justification for bringing them into our country outside the normal immigration formal process then providing that to them here is honorable. Perhaps you may quibble with their accommodations and mischaracterize it so as to feed your grudge but at least they’re still safe and taken care of in an humane a manner as is possible under the circumstances.
2
@Joe B. Enforcing immigration laws is not racist. We shouldn’t put kids in cages. Screaming “racist” at people who want our immigration laws enforced is uninformed. I’m a Democrat and I know that Trump is a lying, racist monster, and I’m voting a straight Democrat ticket this November. I do want our immigration laws enforced, and I don’t believe anyone should be able to skip the line. There are surely millions of liberals who think it’s okay for our country to have borders and immigration laws.
2
Trump is an embarrassment to this country, every day he speaks. It is such a shame. Will we recover? I think so.
He has caused insurmountable damage globally on many levels, but not permanent, at least not yet. While have not ever seen his particular brand of nationalism, it has always existed. The question is, are we going to do anything about it?
6
You seem so concerned about what the rest of the world thinks about America under Trump. How about some concern for your fellow citizens who are worried about the impact of 22 million illegal migrants and counting who are overwhelming our social services and suppressing wages.
As most of these people in the current caravan are from Honduras, we should immediately stop accepting them at hospitals and colleges and anyone who hires one of them should be fined. They will soon go back if we can cut off any opportunity for them. Let them apply legally for entry like all other law abiding immigrants. No to the Hondurans who think we owe them a life!
7
What are the chances that at least some members of this immigrant caravan are being paid by Republican operatives? Wouldn’t surprise me in the least. But beyond that, Republicans need to own their failures on this issue. They control both houses of Congress and the presidency, so the continuing problem of illegal immigration is on them.
6
Wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if the “caravan” was found to be funded by the GOP and their keepers. Scare the ignorant masses to turn out the mid-term vote for GOP candidates. Cynical? Yes, but likely true.
1
Parents who drag their children for hundreds of miles across dangerous territories should be prosecuted for child abuse.
36
@Rolf
I agree that the parents are the ones to blame.
But "prosecution" in American courts is useless.
The only thing that will stop them is physical barriers, at the border, like a wall, and plenty of border patrol, and plenty of water hoses and pepper spray.
Plus quick deportation for the ones who do get through -- without exaggerated legal procedures.
12
my wife and I recently stayed in a newly refurbished high end "motor court" in Hot Springs, AR. The manager told me he was just finishing renovations, but that he had been having trouble finding labor because his "usual people", undocumented workers, had returned to Mexico, scared off by the Trump administration's policy of separating families. He told me he had been reduced to paying "locals" $30 an hour for finish carpentry. $30 an hour is $62, 000 a year, presuming one worked year round (which most construction workers don't). As ugly as it might seem, the policy of separating families, at least anecdotally, seems like it actually alleviates some of the downward pressure on working class wages resulting from the presence of the undocumented in the workplace.
38
@Glenn Baldwin. Wow. Supply and demand. It's not just a right wing conspiracy. Who knew?
26
@Glenn Baldwin, And paying someone proper wages for a skilled day's work is what, wrong? Americans too have families, who also require food and roof over their heads.
18
@MS. Are you arguing with me? Because that's the point that I'm making, that the presence of undocumented workers in the US labor force depresses wages for trades people, but particularly for the semi-skilled and unskilled. Please, I know it's the fashion these days, but try and figure out what someone is saying before you start yelling.
1
Democrats, please do not fall prey to the sentiment you need to address this. This is a ploy by illegal immigrants to exploit the mid-term elections and force the Democratic Party to rally in favor of them. Honestly if they could get 5000 folks to march together, why not use the same citizen power to create a change in their home countries. Besides I don't see any problems with legal immigration, yes please apply and come in through the right channels.
And don't pawn your children like commodities just to secure a footing in this country.....and I am a voting democrat, not a republican.
For those in favor of letting the caravan in, let your generosity begin at home by taking in homeless American families.
28
Ignorance is not exclusive to republicans.
7
If my grandma, Katie Boyle, were still alive, she would probably say "Get rid of the Statue of Liberty" and "Ellis Island" because they don't mean anything anymore. She loved this country, but she knew when to call a spade a spade, and she would certainly have said: "What's wrong with that man? They only want what we wanted in 1917."
I've wondered why Donald presents himself as a tough guy when he's really just a rich man's son. And I think it's because he doesn't want every American to discover that he's nothing but a coward at heart. He doesn't want the FACT that he's a draft dodger to get around. He was told to report for duty in Vietnam, but he was afraid, so he ran away from service and let others take his place. He surrounds himself with generals and salutes the alligators on his golf courses. But he wanted other young men to endure the rigors of war while he stayed home in a rich man's comfort. And today many, many of these young men (and women) are immigrants.
The scariest part of his being president is that a man like him who has always wanted to erase the shame of being a draft dodger has the power of 700 Atomic bombs to show how brave he is. Donald, they want the same thing that your parents and mine wanted when they came here as immigrants - Freedom!
10
Even as a real liberal, I have to ask: is there really nowhere in their home countries or anywhere in Central America these folks could lively safely?
While some of these folks surely have a valid claim to refugee status, it can't be anywhere near even a fraction of these folks.
41
This caravan seems to be kind of phony to me. Far too many men. Too few women in the picture. A phony caravan that's expedient for the Republicans and Trump, and just in time for the elections!! A caravan that takes the focus away from the real issues. Give me a break.
Stay focused on Health care, jobs, higher wages, infrastructure, climate change, clean environment, education and so on and on.
Voters don't get distracted. Trump will say and do anything (I mean he lies) to shift the focus off from real issues.
Millennials the future is yours. Secure it. VOTE.
9
@Sarah. I'm going to need an explanation of how adding millions of poor uneducated peasants with big families isn't going to negatively affect ever issue you state.
36
Well, Al in Idaho, 'millions of poorly educated immigrants' is how this country was built. They came, they worked, they scrimped and saved so their own kids could become educated and assimilated into the American melting pot.
Including, I'm going to bet, your own family - unless you are descended from the aristocracy or a member of a Native American tribe.
And including Donald Trump's grandfather, who came here as an unaccompanied minor, his only education a barber's certificate - and who became rather wealthy running saloons, gambling parlors and, ahem, 'hotels' (a/k/a 'bordellos') in rough mining and logging towns in the Pacific Northwest. And my maternal grandparents, who came here scarcely literate, fleeing Russian pogroms, ran a little corner grocery and sent their four children to college.
And my paternal grandparents, who came here with my father, then barely in his teens, to avoid being gassed and dumped in an oven. At the time, Donald Trump's dad was a member of the 'America First' movement, which wanted to keep them out of the U.S.
The birth rate in the U.S. is plummeting and is already below replacement. That means without substantial immigration, this nation will age and its economy will stagnate, with a shrinking population of working age adults. Restricting immigration on those facts is a stupid, self-destructive exercise in resentment, fear and hatred.
But let's not allow reality to get in the way of a good right-wing narrative, shall we?
2
@chambolle. Try this narrative. We have ~330 million. The empty continent needing large families of unskilled uneducated people was filled a hundred years ago. We are the Third largest population behind only those paradise locales of China and India. The world is moving towards automation and needing fewer well educated workers. Our environmental, labor, financial laws, etc and needs have changed. Why does the left continue to think we don't need and in fact are morally obligated to continue to take in everybody who shows up with an immigration system based on a country and needs that haven't existed in a 100 years? You probably think your an "environmentalist". Please justify adding millions more people to a country with the worlds highest co2/capita and 5% of the worlds population using 25% of its resources? Central Americas population has gone from 40 million in 1950 to 180 million now. Give me the narrative that says we are responsible for that and have to take them in or better how many we can? Narrative indeed.
5
‘Irish Need Not Apply’ sound familiar?
8
@itsmildeyes
Apply legally. Sound familiar?
28
Margot,
Allow me to refer you to the article ‘Myths and Facts About Immigrants and Immigration’ on the Anti Defamation League website at ADL.org.
You and I will probably never agree, but considering years of U.S. ‘involvement’ in various countries in Central America, I’d say we bear some responsibility for their economic and humanitarian instabilities, of which these immigrants are a direct result.
No matter how you cut the cake, removing young children ‘voluntarily’ from their parents is abhorrent and immoral.
9
Read or listen to “Did European Immigrants Come to the U.S. ‘The Right Way?’” at WHYY.org.
Decent people, Donald Trump is ‘buying’ your votes with this caravan issue. You’re going to hate yourself in the morning.
6
I am the grandchild of immigrants. My grandparents fled pogroms in Eastern Europe to come to the US. They would have been killed if they did not come here.
Donald Trump is the grandchild of German immigrants. His wife is a very recent immigrant (as are her parents).
Trump's hypocrisy and lack of empathy are appalling. Yes, we already knew this, but it seems each day we are treated to a new outrage. This is a nation of immigrants, as Trump's own family demonstrates. His treatment of current immigrants is a national disgrace!!
8
You left out the word LEGAL
23
At the time, 'legal' meant you walked off a tramp steamer with your worldly possessions in a beat-up old suitcase and a few shekels in your pocket; signed your name (often with an 'X') in a ledger at Ellis Island or other port of entry; and walked out into the new world hoping for anew and better life.
"Legal" is whatever we say it is; and the point of this Trumpian exercise is to make most immigration "illegal" by imposing draconian limitations on the definition of "legal" immigration - narrowly defining who qualifies for asylum, imposing rigid and impossibly low quotas and similar measures. Most of the people now living in the U.S. never would have been born in this country if their parents, grandparents or great-grandparents had been subject to similar definitions of "legal" immigration.
1
@chambolle. Wow. You do realize it's not 1910 right? We don't ride horses in cities we can't shoot wildlife without a license and on and on and we don't have a largely undeveloped unsettled country, right? No other country on earth just lets anybody walk in. There's a really good reason for this. Without borders you don't have a country. The u.s. on average takes in and settles more refugees than the rest of the world combined. There are billions who would like to come here. Sorry, we've done our part.
1
The Dems have never ever been for open borders. That's a plain and simple Republican lie.
10
@Sarah,
Of course the Democratic Party will never say they support open borders.
But whatever policies they do support (they are vague- very vague) would be, in practical effect, an open borders policy.
They would relax the asylum process so much a person that stubbed their toe would be granted permanent residence (along with their family, and every person they ever knew).
9
@Sarah. So what do you call: subverting immigration laws, tolerating up to 20 million illegals, calling for repeated "last" amnesties, sanctuary cities, abolishing ice, resisting deporting anybody, even people here under legal temporary status, resisting strengthening the borders, resisting even modest reductions in our out of date immigration numbers, chain migration and birth right citizenship? You don't have to say " we want open borders" to in fact advocate for them.
41
@Sarah And yet several comments right here advocate for open borders. You can't support open borders AND claim that you are not for open borders. Pick one. If the Dems are not for open borders, they should clarify their position. They should come up with proposed solutions and cooperate with the Admin on this problem.
Interestingly people who say that they don't support open borders almost never say WHAT do they support instead.
25
Am I the only one who is totally convinced that the so called caravan, south of the border is actually a making of Trump crooked ingenuity? I somehow feel that he and his cronies have somehow bribed or otherwise convinced over 7000 poor souls to conveniently create the caravan and march to towards our border. Who stands to gain? Why, Trump of course - he now has "proof" as to why a tall border wall is absolutely necessary as he claimed. ... And he can blame the Dems for being "weak" on immigration. Two birds with a single stone. Anything to cling on the a House and Senate majority.
Most Americans are simple and straightforward and unfortunately not very politically savvy. They have blind faith in their leaders. They are not used to their leaders lying outright to them.
Trump says there are people from the Middle East and criminals in the caravan. Well he created the caravan, he would indeed know.
In 2016 who would have thought that the Russians would hack our elections? Who would have thought in 2016 that the pizza gate and the hillary lookalikes in striped convict jumpers were actually Russian actors and not Americans. Well, now we know better. I await eagerly to find out who is helping Trump with a readymade caravan that's marching stoically to our Southern border. Think about it - why is this happening now??
8
Definitely something he would do. Per his playbook, it doesn’t even matter if he’s behind it. Let’s just keep repeating that it is and we can make it ‘true.’
4
@Sarah This conspiracy theory is even more irrational than the infamous "pizza gate". One can also claim that the Democrats have organized this caravan so that they could gain politically from more "family separations", as they did last a few moths ago.
11
Trump and his theater of optics to instill fear gloom and doom.
He can't come up with a good solution that's staring him in his face. Give aid and resources to those nations. Just like America did for Mexico and the people will not only stay in their nation but migrate back just as the Mexican people are doing.
1
There is no policy that can curtail illegal immigration...Absolutely nothing...
3
@Longitude Electionsy. Funny, Israel and Korea and other countries don't have this problem. I'm thinking laws and borders work if you want them to.
17
@Longitude Electionsy, Putting our military at the border would be a start to curtailing illegal immigration.
15
@Longitude Electionsy
Australia effectively blocked it. From hundreds of thousands to almost zero. It can be done.
4
"Criminals and unknown middle easterners are in the caravan....." D. Trump.
So what's the lie count up to now for the Liar in Chief?
5
@Susan 5000 and counting...
How do you know that it is a lie??
1
The Great Trump/Republican Campaign Strategy: Stoke fears about desperate refugees as a decoy while destroying Americans' health care protections.
11
@Jim Steinberg
Then stop opposing sensible immigration control,
and concentrate your great energy on supporting Obamacare.
Obamacare was good. I support it.
But immigration control is also good, and I support that.
The hard part is finding a politician who is right about both.
I hope Donnelly wins in Indiana and Manchin in West Virginia. But Dems like them are few and far between.
Likewise, I hope that Collins wins in Maine, and Murkowski in Alaska. But Repubs like that are few and far between.
2
I’m sure this idea would be heartily condemned my 45’s thug followers: But...,how about teams of activists drive into Mexico near the borders along the “caravan” trail, and offer to smuggle these Central American into the US, and into sanctuary churches and other sanctuaries, and then set up a type of Underground Railroad to get these folks out of the eye of the Border Patrol and ICE, and into their new lives here. Safely. Without tearing families apart. I understand, it would take money and a lot of logistics, and some fearless, determined activists to help.
People helped those in danger during Hitler’s Nazi terror program. I don’t see this as so different.
Who is willing to help? To get involved? To put their money where there mouth is? To perform compassionate, revolutionary assistance.
4
I'm a moderate liberal and quite frankly, i can't condone your suggestion. you are openly asking people to commit a felony crime because you don't like the law as it is currently written? I have always considered one of America's strengths is that we are a nation of laws. apparently you don't think that we should be a nation of laws. you seem to think it would be ok to violate laws just because you don't happen to like them. does that apply to murder or arson or embezzlement or any other law you happen not to like? in addition, I didn't see you volunteer to be the lead car in line.
you also said "People helped those in danger during Hitler’s Nazi terror program. I don’t see this as so different."--you're kidding right?
34
@bored critic The OP is an example of what the right calls "unhinged left". I'm sure they are "not for open borders" though. But seriously, how can NYTimes publish comments that incite felony crimes like human trafficking? I'm sure your comment will be considered "far right" by these revolutionary radicals.
3
Lead the way Annie
1
As long as democrats don't understand immigration, republicans will continue to win in spite of their destruction of benefits for health-poor, working-poor, and elderly American citizens.
20
I notice that, except for the policies supposedly being developed by the Trump administration, none of our politicians are offering constructive solutions to the crisis which will inevitably result if an organized group of thousands reaches our borders, trying to get in.
I am probably cynical- actually I am cynical- but I suspect this deafening silence is deliberate. None of our Congressional politicians want to touch the issue. Instead of working together to develop a solution which is both humane and protects our borders, they are waiting to see how this plays out. Then if a crisis does occur, they will immediately make it a campaign issue , pointing fingers of blame, and shouting out expressions of righteous indignation.
Our politicians don't really care about the families, the children, and refugees. Instead, they are ready and waiting to exploit the plight of these individuals for political gain.
14
This President has no policies. We have no policy for immigration justice,we have no policy for international aid _— but we do have a policy for selling arms. President Trump Tower promises a $100 billion expectation of armament sales to Saudi Arabia. Is there a benefit to the United States? Other than to armaments industries? How else might we invest our industry output?
Migrants issues? Build a wall! International turmoil? Build bombs! You only need technicians to build a bigger bombs. You only need to bullies and braggarts to start wars. But...but Life improvement within and among nations requires insight, long-term planning, foreign assistance, funding for infrastructure and see if I can situations. They should greatly outweigh arms. But where does this Republican Congress and this Republican small-minded president lead us?
4
the migrant "crisis" was started by a past president who decided not to enforce the immigration laws that are currently on the books. he chose to allow people in contrary to the laws. then he came up with a plan to pardon them and ultimately obtain citizenship. these actions prompted hundreds of thousands over the past years to decide that they could have a better life than where they were living and that the US gov't would provide health care, education and economic support to them. who wouldn't want that deal. and so the came. and they keep coming. and they will continue to come until out gov't can no longer give them the support the seek. and that's when the real crisis will begin.
18
@bored critic
The migrant and immigrant crisis started in 1965 with LBJ's Great Society giveaway folly that included opening the U.S. to 1 million latinos and Africans every year + all their relatives and now any neighbors jumping on the bus.
2
@Margot. Ted Kennedy and the 1965 immigration reform act threw the doors open. Ironically he thought it was going to allow more Irish in and never intended it to be abused as it is now. And he was a real liberal.
4
Democratic extremism on this issue needs to end. We cannot have open borders with Latin America. The solution to Latino poverty and violence in Latino nations is not importing that poverty and violence here.
Dems need to stand up for the rights of legal Americans or they will lose.
55
I could not agree with you more.
23
Who precisely is asking for open borders, please?
9
@Robert. Anybody who thinks we can go on absorbing these kinds of numbers.
3
Where is it in our Constitution that we must accept invaders into our country? Or immigrants of any stripe?
A million plus a year for legal immigrants must also be curtailed. Too many people.
Can we in the US caravan it to Canada?
37
@MS
Unless you are Native American, your forebears were all immigrants, and some probably illegal. In fact, the original illegal immigrants were the Europeans who landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620, and their descendants who went west and stole the lands from the Native Americans. These are not invaders. They are driven by the same motivation as your forebears. Why the cruelty and mean spirit?
7
@dba
Those so-called Native Americans were not. The first humans to the North and South Americas were Asian nomads. There also was no nation, just tribes and then large civilizations wherein large warring tribes constantly kidnapped, raped and slaughtered each other.
The history of humans is one of migration...and establishment of both nations and laws to avert warring tribes consuming their neighbor.
2
@dba And how did the European immigration work out for those Native Americans?
After reading these comments, I think it's time to return the Stature of Liberty to France.
11
@Tom Sage
Why? Every European country is developing a strong “stay home” movement too.
10
@Tom Sage
Please ask legal immigrants how they feel about people breaking in line and breaking our laws to gain entry. You will be surprised by their answers.
14
@Tom Sage
The SoL had nothing to do with immigration. To the contrary, it was a gift from France to celebrate a U.S.-French shared love of philosophical democracy and LAWS. That stupid Lazarus plaque was added 30 years later, amid intense opposition from the U.S. citizenry.
8
The current "president" waited so long to condemn the Saudi's for the death of Khashoggi. But immediately accuse the immigrants fleeing poverty and persecution as being the dregs of society and threatening to call out the military to protect our borders.
Fifteen of the 19 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, yet Saudi Arabia is not on the current "president" list of Muslim banned countries. "He" is more concerned about the oil money Saudi Arabia brings to the USA.
Bottom line: it's all about the money. Life isn't important unless related to him. Maybe if all the people trying to enter this country were pregnant (he loves unborn children) they would gain entry. Newborns and young children are worthless to him once they are born. They are ripped from their parents arms and isolated. Their parents are prosecuted and/or deported. These parents have walked hundreds and sometimes thousands of miles to escape a brutal existence. The "president" has no clue what it is like to struggle for anything. Where would he be now if his ancestors had not been admitted to the USA? We all come from somewhere else.
When will common sense prevail? Everyone, please vote in the midterm election1
4
"Fifteen of the 19 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, yet Saudi Arabia is not on the current "president" list of Muslim banned countries."
ummm, and what about the prior president of 8 years? was SA on his list? nope.
10
@bored critic
I agree with you, but you made a math error-16 years, not 8. And he has lied about all the “bad people” . This “president” has no morals or humanity. The last two Presidents were decent people.
I would prefer to see more reporting on our fellow citizens post Hurricane Michael than on this caravan of citizens of central american countries, which is the sole responsibility of the of central american governments that should improve conditions for their people.
16
Not so fast. Historically, US policies propped up dictators throughout Latin America in the interests of big business that exploited people. See, for example, Big Stick policy, United Fruit Company, and School of the Americas. The US is, in part, responsible for the conditions Central and South Americans are fleeing.
6
No, we aren’t.
2
@HJ
I knew this would be a reply. But, that's an old story. Take the example of Daniel Ortega. We've guilted ourselves long enough. The people and the governments of Central America must learn to improve their own countries.
No one leaves their country, their home, lightly. Each migration is like the first -- painstaking and reluctant. The American identity is at stake in the face of this truth.
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
You, too, were there once! What has turned you into such an ogre!
5
@Christine A. Roux
That plaque was placed well after the statue was placed in NY Harbor when population was not in the multi-multi millions. How many more unskilled people with multiple children do we need in this country? The taxpayer gets to foot the bill each and every time that well is on dry.
24
Well, there goes about a quarter of the Trumpists. Now all we need to do is figure out who’d be dumb enough to accept them...
3
@Margo Channing
Nope. Wrong. Give me the skill of these individuals trekking over deserts , against gunfire, in the face of hate any day over the privileged. What we need in this country is endurance and grit, not entitlement and elitism.
1
Oh, boy. The gangs are waiting.
16
@M. According to "the national gang center" there are approximately 1.2 million gang members in the U.S. ~ 48% are Hispanic. I guess we can't say they don't assimilate in some respects.
7
The system of asylum was never meant to be applied to people who want to just jump to a better economy because they don't like their own. Assuming that these groups want to just work, what will become of their home countries when everyone who wants to work leaves? How will they countries become reformed internally at that point? It's morally questionable to just take large portions of a country's populace.
40
Lot of men in the picture. Where are the women & children?
19
@NYC Dweller Another commenter just said that lots of children are being used by the migrants to gain entry to the US. Please get your stories straight. Are there ostly men or lots of children?
3
@NYC Dweller I see at the clinic I work at MANY children of this population as well as those from Africa. Both groups have MANY children immediately upon arriving. I see families that had just one kid when I first started working here that have 4-5 now (10 years later.) There is no way their input into taxes pays for even the maternity, WIC, and medical of the family. The kids are eligible for everything since they are citizens. Education in NYC is already 19k a student and that does not include the kids that need ESL.
21
@allright. Wow! Are you saying someone making 20$/hr isn't going to pay for my retirement and medical care as well as their 4 kids?! I'm shocked, shocked!
1
You should never separate children from their parents as there's lots of perverts out there looking to exploit a vulnerable situation. Lots of people traffickers get hold of them, as well, and they disappear and that has happened with all those illegals passing through various countries to get to their preferred destinations. Unbelievably naïve of USA government to do this.
6
Everyone says the illegals pay more in taxes than they consume. I can tell you as a physician in nyc who treats them that there is no way one of these guys working as a delivery man or kitchen worker is paying enough taxes for his 4 kids school (19k x 4= 76k), free medical care (4kids x 5k= 20k), and maternity (20k). Atypical illegal migrant family in nyc is using over 100k of government resources and not paying that in taxes.
58
@allright, Illegals cost the US taxpayers over 200 BILLION annually.
11
@allright. The left doesn't count the legal kids.
2
By some accounts, half of the population of these Central American countries have already migrated to the US. What is the endgame, to take in the other ½?
How are we making out with the ½ already here? There are no doubt success stories, but there are horror stories too, just ask the Angel Moms.
People do not have an entitlement to migrate to the US, especially if they already demonstrated violence at the Guatemala-Mexico border. We do not need such people in the US, and our officials have the responsibility to implement security measures to protect us from this stamped mob.
Most Americans do not want an open border, just read the comments of the liberal NYT readers.
38
So, the Democrats (Abolish ICE etc.) think most American Hispanics want more people from South America in the US.
And even if that's the case (quod non) the soft immigration position would have to bring in more votes from Hispanics than the ones they lose from other voting blocs.
Why are Democrats so good at losing?
26
Making Ángel and Alma Grieve, Abandoned, now, that's really exchanging the great in MAGA with the gross, in treating actually liddle children almost as heartless as if they were 'liddlary' seen as unwelcome cattle or Very Early Age (Librul Latino) 'Lowlife' Suspects (veals), beliddling and subduing the humanity in both the children and in the souls of the people cruelly separating them from their parents or trying to blackmail the parents into choosing the separation option as the least harmful, like reverse King Solomons, who famously reunited the real mother with her child by forcing her to show the true colors of her mother instincts in prefering the sacrifice of her motherhood over seeing her child sacrificed.
The bible takes our compassion as a given in highlighting the wisdom of King Solomon in that story.
Fast forward almost a full three millennia and glee over cruelty is the norm of our times, that the current King is speculating on as our given gut response.
"That's "so (like) Don," his supporters say, so wise of the God Emperor-like King that we revere, because he is striking fear in the hearts of these... others that appear to threaten us with their very presence at our gates. And so Don is how we like our shining city on the hill!
We've come a long way in the last three thousand years.
2
Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.
— Proverbs 14:31
Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done.
— Proverbs 19:17
Our 'experiment' has prospered because our foundations are based on godly values.
3
5,000 people is 100 people per state. I think we can absorb that.
4
@Joe Barnett
You take them in. Our schools and emergency rooms are nearly filled to capacity all paid for by the taxpayer. 5,000 turns into 50,0000 and so on.
21
@Joe Barnett
Perfect example of what's wrong with Dem policies; nobody is thinking ahead. Of course we can absorb 5000 people. But if we take in 5000, tomorrow will bring another 10,000, and on and on. What then?
12
@Joe Barnett
Joe, you say 5000 people is 100 per state, but they won't be going to all 50 states, that's for sure.
And if the caravan people are allowed here, their entire villages will be coming a week later.
I don't know what the answer is, but we need some kind of plan...
9
So is this happening now or has it always happened like this and only now are we finding out about this?
These people seem like they could all form a small city! I empathize with people fleeing violence, but can they just decide to flood in to America like that? how about going to cabo san lucas or some other beautiful mexican city where they speak the language?
10
@Anonymous In September, 16,000 people entered the US illegally. In 2017, 100,000 entered illegally. This doesn’t include those who were not apprehended.
8
@Anonymous Going to Cabo San Lucas or some other beautiful Mexican city is not an option.
Mexico does not allow illegals to work in their country.
There are strict penalties for any employer who would put an illegal person to work. And when an illegal immigrant is discovered, they are put on a bus and returned to their home country ASAP. No court hearing, just get on the bus.
3
There is no voice of reason when parents use their children as pawns. The lunacy of an advancing army of migrants brings thoughts of the " Children's Crusade " in 1212, that ended poorly for them then, I can't imagine a good outcome here.
For Mexico to allow this march three weeks after signing a new trade agreement is astounding.
39
@Tom ,Retired Florida Junkman. Who can blame Mexico? We can only assume they're glad they don't want to stay there.
2
Regardless of what we threaten, the thought of spending time in air conditioned tent on an expense paid vacation in America's scenic southwest with the ACLU on 24/7 callback certainly can't look worse. Never mind the drugs and gangs.
13
This article lacks any Democrat politician weighing in on what their solution is. if they are for an open border just say so instead of hiding behind "more compassionate" handling which is just baloney boilerplate. whoever gets elected in November will have to deal with this and successive waves of the same if it succeeds in getting into the US. If that happens it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect most of south and central America to start emptying into the US. Compassion will then see it's limits.
35
The number of "immigrants are scary monsters out to get us" comments with lots of recommendations here is disturbing. Built into these posts is the assumption that the people - and I emphasize "people" - are of no value to us as a nation, that they're a burden and should be turned away. Because reasons.
As I write this, the #5 comment actually uses the Fox News "anchor baby" scare-phrase seriously. I expect some people to write nonsense like this, but I don't expect Times readers to support something that repellent views like this.
I guess it's a reminder of why Trump's approval is as high as 40%. That many Americans really do have the a mindless nativist mindset.
4
@Gus
are you able to take in a refuge family in your home now?
do you have the extra bedroom, shampoo etc for a family with no means of support? walk your talk.
maybe start an organization that places refuges with families in America open to supporting them.
12
@michelle moore
Shampoo?! How about health care?
We need to fix the Constitution so that "born here" no longer grants automatic citizenship. That is the draw for illegal entry and tourist birthing. Few if any other countries offer this be benefit.
36
@babaganoush
After you fix it, please have the law applicable from 1900 onwards.
1
@Anonymous. Not necessary. It wasn't abused like it is now until the last few decades. Most of the rest of the western democracies have already come to their senses on this issue.
So, who's entitled to live in the land of the free? The more furious the yelling, the less compassion survives sometimes. I've worked in the South with refugee resettlement, part of the 1% of global refugees the U.S. grants asylum. They miss their home countries but left bc their lives were in danger. Is that not a good enough reason now? It's not a scam. I'm not against reasonable processing and protocols, but to see the U.S. acting like xenophobic country with absolutely *nothing* left to give, no room to spare... Are we that broke? Broken? We need an improved process that's fair to those already following reasonable rules. But it seems many citizens in this country would be happy to mow down outsiders from walls made of glass, apparently. Is that what's "American" now? Hate and fear are contagious. They are easy, consuming and necrotic emotions. I wish we could hear more from all sides to solve these complex problems with more compassion and forethought, and no more imbecilic "this color means 'gang,' this color means 'terrorist",' and this color is 'right.'"
4
By the way, morality aside and just to tick off Trumpists:
1. If you look at our demography, we actually badly need immigrants. In numbers. This is because like all the industrialized countries, our birth rates dropped sharply since about 1975, and we can’t run our social systems and support an aging population without them.
2. People who think that this is a world in which you can just shove people back into their messed-up countries and forget about them are out of their tiny minds. What happens in Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua and the rest of Central America will cascade right on over into Mexico, and how long’s our border with Mexico? How’d the collapses of Iraq and Syria work out, exploding refugee pop-wise?
3. Our economy depends on Mexico, and a lot of the other countries Trump et al are sneering at and trying to bully. We keep this isolationist nonsense up, and we end up with either an aging, repressive oligarchy, or an aging, repressive colonial Empire. In a world where China’s ascendant. Either because we surrendered the planet, or we’re generally deeply hated. What we don’t end up with is America.
You want practicality? Fine. Go back and do the deal Trump swore he’d go for. Marshall Plan for Central America.
5
That approach is terrible for the planet. We need less, not more people to consume resources and produce garbage.
12
Of course I didn’t argue for bigger families; I argued for doing something about Central American poverty.
See, the general rule is, the poorer the country, the bigger the families. You may also wish to look into which side’s been pushing family planning, and which has been attacking it.
6
@Robert
"Marshall Plan" for (you pick the impoverished country) is nothing more than a hoary cliche. There's a new book by Ben Steil titled "The Marshall Plan: Dawn of the Cold War" in which he argues that the situation in post war Europe is not analogous today to parts of the world that never had a educated citizenry, capitalistic tradition or respect for rule of law and it's bogus to suggest that simply trying to implement something similar in central America would result in anything other than enriching a kleptocratic ruling class.
2
Trump must really be ticked off at the people in the Caravan, he hasn’t even gone down there yet to throw paper towels at them.
I think he would be well advised to go down there and talk to them.
Before they reach Mar-a-Lago.
4
This is a good opportunity for the leftists to make a convincing case that they are not for open borders, by proposing workable solutions and by cooperating with the Administration.
Given that the migrants are not choosing to stay in Mexico, even when the authorities there are providing them with this option, one can only conclude that the vast majority are economic migrants.
No matter how it transpires, it will turn ugly when they reach the border. Families will be separated, at least temporary, to insure safety of the children and for identification purposes. If the Left makes a political case out of this inevitable outcome, then the Admin can correctly reaffirm the claim that the Left is for open borders. Both parties should work together on this one and make sure the safety of the migrants and the rule of law in the US are both respected. If Mexico cooperates, that would be great too.
The EU is falling apart because of the 2015 uncontrolled mass migrations. The US must make sure this doesn't escalate and that the new potential "caravans" get a clear message that law and borders will be enforced fully.
40
Don't watch the cards; watch the hands. We have heard that instruction when watching a magician perform card tricks. We know how sleight of hand works, by getting the audience to stare at the cards only. That suggestion may fit this case also.
There may be much more to this so-called caravan than meets the eye. The caravan, or what is really a well-organized invading group, are the cards in this trick. There are very few nations or places that are able to organize a mass march into another country, and we should consider, or assume, that this was organized by a very powerful body inside or outside the source country. Tiny central American countries lack the ability and desire to turn America's population against it.
For any country, even highly developed ones in Europe, such mass marches are extremely rare. So the question should focus on who or what was behind this organized march. It seems illogical that any group in the U.S. would be involved, since it hurts both those wanting and non wanting more immigrants.
This kind of event creates dissension within the U.S. It creates more conflict, arguments, and new enmity between the U.S. and some of its neighbors. It further divides and weakens America's political and social cohesion. It would benefit only those outside the U.S. who want to weaken our democracy, and especially the administration, who will be cornered with no choice but to close borders. It makes America look bad. Is that the goal?
8
The DOW keeps dropping, and that suggests to me that Wall Street is getting nervous. If Republican victory was such a sure thing, stocks would still be soaring in anticipation of further tax cuts. It's on the Republicans' heads if they lose. They have control over every branch of government, but they keep failing to do anything about immigration. Bigger majorities in Congress won't make a difference, the Republicans just can't get their act together.
5
@Randy Thompson The Dow has been pretty much even or down since January with a brief run up last month. I think that worries about deficits, inflation, interest rates and tariffs are causing the drop rather than worries about the election.
9
If you were waiting in line at a restaurant and a group of people walked in and ignored the process and just sat at your table, what would you do? Their excuse would be that they were really hungry. Is that ok? Maybe once but what if it started happening all the time? Rules and laws are pointless unless everyone follows them. You can't just choose which laws you like either.
53
@babaganoush
good example !
5
These migrants are the gift that keeps on giving to Trump's (and other GOPs) election campaign.
25
This is definitely the Achilles’ heel for Democrats. Does their polling show that most legal immigrants do not want amnesty granted to whoever shows up at the southern border?
30
All other things aside, Trump's immigration policies simply aren't working. More folks are arriving now than were coming one year ago. All other things aside, Trump's policies toward refugees are simply in violation of our own laws and treaty agreements pertaining to asylum. Moreover, we can all agree that Trump's immigration policies are already very harsh. Families are so desperate that they are trying anyway. If they don't come, their sons and daughters will be murdered or pressed into sex slavery by criminal gangs. Put your family in their shoes. What would you do?
***
(We all should know by now that Trump is lying, and inciting anger, resentment and fear. For instance, these folks have crime rates that are much better than the same rates for citizens. They pay more in taxes than they receive in government payouts.)
8
There are about 42 million people in Central America. More than half would come to the United States. Lack of jobs, insecurity and corruption in their countries generate their willing to escape. America could create a new Alliance for Progress, or a Marshall Plan, directed to create more jobs and export their goods. Oh, and to train their leaders regarding management and finances. While it is a really long process for an executive in America to reach the top management of a multinational company, in Central America, with few exemptions, you can be president without any kind of education. No experience needed. No references. No nothing.
But we have to wait for a Democratic government. The above mentioned actions impeded that several countries were dominated by the Soviet Union during the 20th century. That's long term vision.
We know several Wise Men. Let's they help us to save Central America, starting next November. We read their Opinion writings everyday. They are not in the left, rather they are in the Right Side of History. Good.
6
A parade of migrants/refugees is not the problem but an outcome of the real issue. Unfortunate the leader of the free world can't see through his rose colored glasses. It doesn't help having a house and senate polarized across party lines incapable of bipartisan leadership.
Work toward resolving the root issue of why these desperate folks would travel countless miles just for the opportunity to try for asylum. A better wall and more border patrol does not reduce the issues in their home countries.
5
So where is the Democratic sponsored solution for this problem? None were mentioned by you or the article.
14
@babaganoush The real question is where is the Republican sponsored solution? They control both houses of congress and the presidency. Obviously the Republican party has failed massively here, and as usual, they are desperately looking for someone else to blame. It's almost as if illegal immigration is a complex, tenacious and persistent problem that can't be stopped by some simple bloviating and tough talk from the right wing.
3
There is no tragedy. These people are not fleeing persecution and gangs back home. They are economic migrants. Send them home.
50
These people are fleeing violent criminals and hopeless situations in their home countries. Their first choice would be to stay there, were the circumstances bearable. Walking for weeks on end, 20 miles a day with very little if any water, carrying babies, toddlers, children...in 90 degree weather, sleeping on the ground without blankets, women risking being raped....think for a moment HOW BAD it must be that they are willing to leave everything behind, undergo this staggeringly arduous journey with no guarantee of either safety or asylum, risking death and having their children taken away from them. The analogy that comes to mind for me is people choosing to jump to certain death out of a burning building. To repeat the lie that they are violent criminals hellbent on coming into our country to wreak havoc is ludicrous and inhuman.
Instead of imposing sanctions on these countries and taking aid and money away, how about HELPING these countries get rid of the elements that make people flee? This is not an immediate solution, but it is the only solution that will be lasting, and that will keep this from happening in the future.
5
@August West
They are economic migrants - have been for 50 years, coming to the U.S. for money and for endless lifetime welfare. Same as the economic migrants from north and central Africa scramble to get to Germany, Sweden and the UK. It's all about the generous freebies and welfare benefits paid for by taxpayers - mostly the middle class that can least afford it, along with low income Americans whose offspring do not go to college and never get that first leg up in the job market as teens - if ever.
Every one of this new batch, as well as every one from the old batches that now number 100 million in the U.S. could've gone south to a plethora of Spanish speaking nations with plenty of land, cities, jobs anywhere in the entire continent of South America that also is mostly Catholic, with a similar culture and ancestry.
14
Who is feeding this caravan with thousands of people in it? They left their homes and are on a very long journey. Hmmmm. Is someone funding this??? Weird.
19
@Circumspect
You're right. It's obvious that such a mass well-organized sudden march within a small less-developed and poor country like Honduras would be unlikely. This is not a group of poster waving strikers in Latin American marching in the street against their leadership, like we saw in Venezuela. This took a very high-level planned confrontation to create enmity between friendly countries while at the same time further dividing political groups in the U.S.
7
More alien migrants approaching the US border means more votes for Trump. Outraged and angry people tend to vote. Complacent Dems don’t.
16
To those comparing the immigration proposals to Sophie’s Choice, please stop the drama and the lie. No child is going to be executed.
28
To see who are the ones who benefit only have to see the participants among which there are members of the free party, we must see that their leader is currently being investigated for illicit enrichment, for links to drug trafficking and the Cartagena pact is only good for political crimes and not common and this makes it subject to extradition and the way to avoid it is to cause controversy between the United States and Honduras. The socialists and communists of the only way that they are good is putting in bad to the others is part of its policy. A party that encourages and sponsors maras and gangs that cause chaos, destruction and do not allow the investment that would create jobs to help the economy make them see that they are the cause of the current situation and now to save their leader who is a false socialist because he is a landowner, landowner, and capitalist who was never poor in his childhood, now his followers endanger Honduran children in order to save their leader who in the past emptied the national coffers leaving Honduras without money, without credits and cause the beginning of this crisis for their imported ideas that make him a follower and not a true leader of his own ideas.
Where is the voice of reason in all of this? I don't know any of the answers, but I do know that using children as bargaining chips to deter people from coming to the US is wrong. A child would be able to tell you that, but Republicans don't seem able to grasp it. Trump and his autocrats seem to think any means justify their ends.
Wake up America, there are some lines you just cannot cross. I defy anyone to say imprisoning kids and/or separating them from their parents is not a prime example of cruel and unusual punishment. The founding fathers decided long that such punishments were not acceptable, no matter the crime committed. Using these people's crime of crossing the border to justify child abuse is wrong. Period.
66
@Mr. Adams so you can’t separate children from their parents, you can’t hold them together in a detention facility. Wow, so all you have to do to run free in our country is bring a kid with you.
24
Using kids as a bargaining chip to get better treatment and enter the US illegally is also wrong, no? It's like taking your kids along on a robbery so you get better treatment from the police. Despicable.
16
Correct, then take all of your friends with you to the poles on election day, and vote to change things!
Build the wall, so that the word goes out to all Central and South America: “Do not approach the US border without a valid visa or work permit. You will be turned back and you will then have to walk all the way back to where you came from”.
30
Close the border and tell every single member of this Honduran caravan to turn around and start walking back to Honduras.
44
Do us all a favor and go back to where your ancestors came from. On the way out, read the welcome message on the statue of liberty and remember what makes America great.
7
@HJ
A poem is not policy.
The Statue of Liberty was a gift in the 1870s from France in celebration of shared U.S.-French democratic philosophical and legal values. It had and still has zero to do with immigration.
There was intense heated opposition from Americans to tacking on in 1903 the Emma Lazarus poem that was an ode to her Russian jewish ancestors. At the time, there were more than ONE MILLION immigrants flowing into the U.S. till cities and some states were at the bursting seams. That conflagration over the SoL Lazarus poem is one of the things that led to tightening of U.S. immigration laws and eventual shutting off the spigot in 1930.
@HJ They came here legally with job skills and were vetted by the American government before being allowed to stay. They did not expect Americans to learn their language or give them everything from a roof over their heads to medical care for their fifth baby.
There's an important fact about illegal immigration that never seems to be discussed. Simply stated, the main reason these immigrants are illegal is because the US has set quotas on how many will be allowed into the country. One hundred years ago, these same people would have arrived at the border and been allowed to settle here without running afoul of the federal government.
Want to reduce illegal immigration? Increase the quotas, and -- voila! -- fewer immigrants will be forced to enter the country illegally.
This isn't an argument for "open borders," as Trump and the rest of the GOP like to mischaracterize humane approaches to immigration. No one questions the government's right to exclude the truly undesirable: those who have committed crimes in their own countries; those with dangerous communicable diseases; those whose personal history demonstrates the likelihood of a significant threat to public safety in the US (that is, terrorists or potential terrorists). I suspect many of us would accept a rational program to deport immigrants who require public assistance within a limited period after their arrival.
In the end, the vast majority of the immigrants coming to the US just want an opportunity for a better life. (Remember, America used to be called the "land of opportunity.") Let's be honest and recognize that those persons are criminals only because the government is playing a numbers game.
4
@Ken, like with my grandmother from Norway, give these new settlers 640 acres in the middle of nowhere as North Dakota was back then and let them have at it. Unfortunately those days are gone and where I am now in East Los Angeles there's only so much room on the sidewalks for settling street vendors trying to sell bags of Flaming Hot Cheetos.
9
@Ken Take off the rose colored glasses, it isn't 1850 and having 8 kids is not a good personal choice, and the population growth rate of south and central America is all you need to know that it is unsustainable.
10
Why should we destroy our country because of those from other nations who refuse to embrace birth control?
I am weary (and wary) of egregious overpopulation and unfettered immigration.
58
How many kids do you have? Or is it ok because they are the "right" color?
5
@Paulie. A personal attack doesn't alter the fact that we are over populated now as is Central America and don't need anymore people.
3
It makes no matter to me what color illegal immigrants are. The operative word here is "illegal" and color has nothing to do with it. Retrieve your red herring.
15
When jobs become more automated what will become of the many millions here in our country illegally, with no marketable skills or education. We do not need any more of these people. No mas.
34
As a matter of public safety, the boarder should be closed if and when the caravan arrives. The personele cannot handle the "pushing and shoving" that will occur with thousands arriving at the gates. I did not vote for Mr. Trump but certainly vote Republican if Mr. Trump takes action now.
35
If “Arab” has become a pejorative term when it’s used by the cargo cult of Trump, doesn’t that imply that they should stop using Arabic numerals?
In 1492, Europe was in the Dark Ages. And once the Renaissance finally did come to revive humanity, Martin Luther doth protest too much.
Trump and his cabinet can't figure out what to do? It's always like a circus at the White House and with this cabinet...
Mexican people are returning to Mexico. Why? Because we put resources in Mexico to help with their issues and resolved their desire to flee the homeland they love.
The Hondurans and the other nations south of Mexico, love their countries and will want to remain, if solutions and aid are brought forth for their economic and gang issues.
This poorly thought out plan of tent cities and family separation IS not the path to go. Millions and millions of dollars are being poured into to the coffers of thess private corporate "prisons." These are prisons, not detention centers; where rampant human abuses are happening.
Trump, Liar-in-Chief, the expert on all things, even when confronted with facts, figures, and the voices of wisdom will still double down on ignorance and bandaids and continue throw money down the hole at for-profit human warehousing.
Voting in 15 days
5
@Sa Ha. So voting in 15 days will turn the caravans around? Amazing!
9
@Al, Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.
— Proverbs 14:31
Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done.
— Proverbs 19:17
1
@Sa Ha. I'm not oppressing anybody. I'm saying the same thing every other country in the world does. You don't get in simply because you show up at the border and say "we're coming in".
Emperor Trump offering powerless and penniless immigrants the forced ‘choice’ of only these two terrorizing alternatives, “Parents would be forced to choose between voluntarily relinquishing their children to foster care or remaining imprisoned together as a family” --- is similar to a sadistic rapist forcing his women victims to make their helpless ‘choice’ between getting just a quiet rape with ‘Trump's hand over their mouths’ or in front of their kids and family.
“It's just Empire, bein' Empire”
1
So what's your plan?
7
@babaganoush
The Dems don't have a plan that is their problem.
Currently 500 to 1000 people a day attempt to gain entry to the US. All involved whether organized tourist birth right trips, asylum/refugee gambits or family unification excesses our laws are being gamed. A sizable group of immigration lawyers facilitate and profit this activity...
Worse Mexican gangs/cartels inside the US and outside profit while gaining a foothold here..likely Asian gangs too.
Let's pause. Fix our immigration laws. Stop the scams...
Then simplify expedite those seeking freedom,opportunity and not becoming a burden on society ...from all around World coming in the
Front door only.
21
Oh please. As if it's mere coincidence that this new caravan of "migrants" (all men essentially) is bumrushing the US border just two weeks before midterm elections. That alone is damning enough circumstantial evidence that these Central American...ahem...migrants...are really more opportunists than people with legitimate asylum cases. If you contend that the majority are bonafide asylum seekers whose lives are specifically endangered by local drug lords or whatever story the MSM is pushing, then put up the evidence. I think these poor people are political tools who have been advised by somebody that this is the perfect time to travel with a similar-minded regiment across our border. That "somebody" would be perfectly content if none of them made it into the US, but Trump suffered bad optics just prior to November 6th.
12
@Joe Schmoe
He's not suffering bad optics. On the contrary, it plays into his hands and gives bad optics to the democrats. If this were some premeditated plot, it certainly doesn't help the democrats. Furthermore, I don't know what images you're looking at, but there are plenty of women and children.
2
@dba please count the women and children in the picture attached to this article. Right!
Allowing these illegals into our country and allowing them to stay is a slap in the face to those who do all the right things and immigrate legally. Why should we reward queue jumpers?
43
@MS They are not illegals. Many under discussion have applied for asylum at the border. Migrants are not illegals. But we do treat them like they are. Or worse. Migrants who arrive at the border and ask for asylum, are thrown into the same jail as the illegals that crossed the border at night. Difference, those caught at night are deported,,, while those who stand at the border and ask for asylum stay in jail, and their children in another jail? , for months, and years,, awaiting their court hearing date. By the way,,, years in not an exaggeration, 2 to 4 years for a hearing is not unusual.
There are nearly no judges, hundreds of benches have gone without appointees for years. A hearing, asking for asylum, may take as much as five years for an appointment.
So, the process that is being suggested is that someone, a family, asks for asylum, and we pay to house them in separate facilities for 2 to 3 years, while awaiting a single court date. You wonder why there are so many 'illegals'? Could it be they are labeled 'illegal' after we cannot process their paperwork in half the life of their child?
2
@Deanalfred
If these people were refugees they would stop in Mexico but they have said they want to come to the US. They are not following the rule of law.
1
@Deanalfred, Ok then let's call them 'economic refugees', is that better?
Family values. Republican cries of family values, freedom, conservative,,,,
What a load of hogwash,,, no freedom,,, they have hundreds of un-returned children in jail (In spite of a court order to return children to their parents.) (Law and order advocates that disobey the law.) And now they want to capture more children.
Is that because the private contractor that is warehousing the children in an old Walmart is making a profit? How much of that profit is a kickback in 'donations'?
Family values. Oh yeah, let's separate the children from their families.
And conservative,,,, ? What is conservative about spending all that money in a year when the deficit is goingf to hit 1 trillion dollars. One trillion dollars that OUR children will have to repay. Does Trump hate all children,, all grandchildren? What is conservative about making your grand babies pay for your spending? Nothing. Nothing !
Hogwash !
5
The photo on msn.com shows one little boy in the center but the throngs around the boy are all grown men. Who organized this throng? Was it a spontaneous movement of people across two countries? I doubt it.
The U.S. cannot just have an open door policy for anyone who takes risks to arrive at our border. Further, there are only limited ways to vet those arrivals.
Not all are criminals, but too many are. Not all are socialist/communist but too many are.The failure to understand the concept of liberty with personal responsibility continues to be an issue with the migrants from south of the border.
There has been antagonism between Spanish speaking civilization and English speaking civilization for hundreds of years (remember the Spanish armada being destroyed by a storm in 1588 as they were about to attack England?). That fundamental culture clash still exists.
However, we must cherish our heritage and not do anything that will threaten our institutions or economy. In my amazingly perceptive and knowledgeable opinion, we need to be strict in preventing illegal border crossings. Best to all.
18
@Philosopher L.
How do you know that they are criminals and socialists? By the way, your social security and medicare are socialist programs.
@dba
I can tell you what they are not: civil engineers, doctors, scientists, teachers etc.
Will the Democrats remain silent about this until the Trump Administration starts acting OR will they enunciate a rational policy that all Americans can support??
15
@Lawrence Clarke. The democratic stand, if you want to call it that, is: more amnesty, more immigration, don't deport illegals, sanctuary cities, chain migration and abolish ice. I wouldn't expect any help from them at this point.
14
@Lawrence Clarke
A certain black female candidate for governor in my state, fawned over in numerous NYT articles, ALMOST had my hard to earn vote until she came out in favor of illegal immigration - the more the merrier and all of them receiving free ObamaCare and college educations. Abrams admits it is to get her more votes from the people of color sector. I refuse to support any fringe left crazies that Democrats seem to think is the yellow brick road to beating Republican fringe right crazies. A pox on both their houses.
Now, I am left with no candidate to vote for. The irony is not lost on my teen daughter, adopted from a broken 3rd world country and made a citizen via lengthy legal channels. She is now expected to strive and work hard to pay taxes to support tens of millions of illegals who could care less about her sense of self-responsibility, respect and high character values - or her rights as a female.
9
Trump is able to make political hay out of this because Democrats have yet to say anything that doesn't sound like "welcome aboard!"
Democrats say they are in favor of strong borders, that they do not support open borders.
Well, here are 7000 people who act like we have open borders, and the Democrats have yet to say a word.
Please, Democrats, say something, anything, that doesn't play into the open-borders accusation by Republicans.
18
Comments mention murder rate per capita in Honduras. Wiki says 60/100K.
Compare with US cities in the top 10 murder rates:
Milwaukee Wi 24.15
Salinas CA 25.29
Hartford CT 25.69
Baton Rouge LA 26.73
Jackson MS 31.08
B'ham AL 37.21
New Orleans LA 41.68
Detroit MI 43.82
Baltimore MD 55.37
St. Louis MO 59.29
Why don't we look at our own cities? The murder rate in our nation's capital is 24.10/100K!
There are millions of people living in the USA who need help. They are poor people, black white hispanic, who were born here, who have lived here for generations. Help them!
There are millions living in the USA in cities with crime rates including murder rates that are unacceptable for a civilized nation. Help them!
There are millions of people living in the USA since birth and for generations who need full-time jobs, who would like to have better lives. Help them!
I know - for some people there's no 'romance' in working with inner city residents, with Appalachian residents, with residents whose jobs left the USA in the 80's, 90's, 2000+. The 'romance' of speaking at meetings of Third World countries draws many to go to foreign countries.
But the need is there in our nation as well. No need to use tons of jet fuel - be green - just drive to inner city neighborhoods and help the people who need help.
Source: https://www.nwitimes.com/news/national/here-s-a-look-at-the-cities-inclu...
24
@Azalea Lover The West Garfield neighborhood of Chicago has a murder rate of 139/100,000.
North Lawndale, 96. Englewood, 95. Riverdale, 91.
Avalon Park, 71. Austin, 71. West Pullman, 68. East Garfield Park, 64. Roseland, 60.
South Shore, 59. Greater Grand Crossing, 55. Woodlawn, 54. Humboldt Park, 54. South Deering, 52.
When are we going to pay attention to those people? When are we going to help them?
http://www.chicagonow.com/getting-real/2018/07/chicagos-safest-and-most-...
21
@Talbot Thank you for your reply and especially for the additional information!
There are many people like us who recognize the millions of Forgotten People who are USA citizens.
You are so right:
When are we going to pay attention to those people?
When are we going to help them?
1
@Azalea Lover
Spot on and brilliant. You have expressed what so many of your fellow Americans are thinking - but fear expressing - lest they be labeled heartless - or worse. Thank you for a clear, no - make that a refulgent statement of what many are feeling. We want everyone to enjoy a better life, a good life, a prosperous life - starting with our neighbors right here in America - some of whom can barely make ends meet.
11
The GOP has it all wrong. Read up before posting that somehow this is a Democratic failure.
DJT won the electoral college and mitch controls the senate. It’s all yours!
With power, comes great responsibility.
DJT, mitch you are on the clock....
5
"One plan would ask migrants to choose between voluntarily relinquishing their children to foster care or remaining imprisoned together as a family."
In other words, they are still ripping children from their families. Imagine if your family found itself in this position, forced to make a decision like this.
You were so frightened by the likely murder or rape of your children that you were willing to make the journey despite the dangers along the wand despite the inhumane racist policies of the Trump White House.
Moreover, your options are even worse than you think they are. Though many good families participate in it, our foster care system is, all the same, essentially broken. For instance, physical and sexual abuse are appallingly common. Many if not most of the homeless young people who are now living on the streets living are alumni of the foster care system.
I have a family. We have a son and daughter. I cannot begin to imagine how horrible these choices are, or how difficult.
***
It goes without saying that Trump and the White House are doing what they always do, that is, pushing racist lies and irrational fear and Fox propaganda. These immigrants have crime rates that are much lower than the rates for American citizens, and they contribute more than they receive. The Democrats want a sane and humane bipartisan immigration plan. The White House has already rejected several such bipartisan plans.
4
These illegal economic migrants are giving the citizens of the US a Sophie's Choice: take us or you are monsters.
They, and their advocates, are playing games with our democracy.
I refuse to live in a right-wing reactionary society- one where we have a President like Trump.
But that is what we are going to get if we do not learn to say No.
Enough. We didn't vote on becoming a third-world country.
33
The timing is suspicious. The size of the group is abnormal. But lets not call them crisis actors like the other side did those kids in cages or the school shooting victims.
Yes... everyone is politicizing everything... everyone has some angle or something to gain off the other guy's tragedy...
But the tragedy is still real.
2
My bet
DJT will find a way to play a round of golf during all of this.
Let’s watch!
Nothing more to say... let’s just watch.
3
Trump can get more done in one round of golf than Schumer has gotten done in years. Enjoy the view?
6
Schumer isn’t the POTUS. It isn’t up to him. He isn’t even in the majority party.
DJT and his winning is all yours!
Nice job.
1
That the people of the El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua triangle flee in fear is understandable, But why north?
It's some 3,000 miles across Guatemala and Mexico from El Salvador to the USA. Costa Rica is next door. Costa Rica is relatively safe; I've vacationed there, and not in resorts, but among its residents, city and country. Panama is next, then Columbia, all rated level 2 on the State Department level of danger -- and they speak the language! Most of Mexico is itself safer than much of Chicago – but it is poor. Indeed, Guatemala itself is rated 2.
Remember the mother/daughter whose child was featured on the photoshopped Times cover? She left a husband and two children behind, and admitted she crossed illegally – twice – not for a safer life, but for a better one.
No, the reason they are fleeing north is for the benefits! Well, if economic hardship is to now entitle an applicant to asylum . . . some 800 million people around the world live in extreme poverty, most much poorer than these folks (the photos show them wearing adequate clothes, not rags). Are we to admit them all?
The only difference between those described in this article and the hundreds of millions elsewhere is proximity. That is not grounds for asylum.
They are fleeing not from danger -- which is real for isolated individuals, but not severe for most of this mob -- but to largess.
22
@Texas Liberal, It's a mooch march to the US.
6
A reminder that there is a mechanism to process people fleeing via the US Refugee Program, which would create a safe and orderly way to screen applicants and would be far less chaotic and dangerous - but the Trump Administration did away with the Central American Minors program, rather than expand on the existing program, and is virtually eliminating the US Refugee Program overall.
1
Abolishing ICE is a poor choice to make, but without a doubt there needs to be serious reforms to the methods the agency uses. Trump’s extremely bigoted views on immigration have sent the message that even though America is a nation of immigrants and a single skin color does not define America, Latinos and Africans are not welcome and will be discriminated against if they come here and only white people are accepted. It’s atrocious how the Republican Party is trying to define who is a “real” American and how willing they are to express bigotry against minorities because they’re not white, heterosexual and Christian. Forcing families apart at the border, regardless of methods, is an abhorrent act and its supporters in government should be impeached or denounced.
1
@Ryan,
People have a problem with illegal immigrants. I am not sure if skin color has as much to do with it as you think.
Many citizens do not want to live in a crowded, crime-ridden, and environmentally destroyed country.
21
And who is doing nothing about our “environmentally destroyed country?”
1
@Debbie,
Both parties. But Republican policies will result in less people- which is of benefit to citizens and our shared environment.
These people are coming up for jobs - and benefits. When you see a mother of three, who clearly wasn't starving, rolling over the border with three little kids, she may get a job, but she'll definitely get hundreds of thousands of dollars of benefits for her family including education, food assistance, and housing assistance. The amount they "might" pay in taxes will get dwarfed by the benefits they receive each time. Democrats love this, because they get the votes and they can send the bill to tax paying Republicans. There are billions of people around the world that have a standard of living "worse" than the U.S. Central Americans aren't special in that regard. It's just that the math doesn't work if they all come here for all of that free stuff. Should Central Americans get a special deal because they live closer? In terms of violence, shouldn't we offer financial assistance to people fleeing Chicago's violence before importing MS-13 into this country? The United States already engaged in the greatest poverty reduction effort of all time by outsourcing jobs to China and lifting hundreds of millions of Chinese into the Middle Class. Democrats want higher wages, but also a flood of illegal immigrants, which tends to depress wages. Democrats need to get their story straight. In the meantime, the border needs to be protected, something Democrats have no interest in.
27
If the US only had legal immigrants here, we'd have 22-23 million, instead of the 45 million we do have. That's based on the new estimate of 22 million here illegally, cited by the Times.
We would not be undergoing a whirlwind of demographic changes that are making some people reject any immigration.
We would not have housing, education, school systems, etc overwhelmed by millions of people, often with little education or job skills.
We need to put a halt to this, now.
30
Your assertion that illegal immigrants are a financial burden on the government is inaccurate. Illegal immigrants are not entitled to most government benefits except for a few that relate to child nutrition, maternal health, and education. Illegal immigrants paid nearly $24 billion in federal income taxes in 2015 (the latest year for the current numbers). There’s a good article in Vox “Undocumented immigrants pay billions of dollars in federal taxes each year” that might change your take on the “misperceived drain” you think is occurring.
3
You stated enough benefits they receive.
@Sharon
The moment they set foot onto U.S. soil, illegals are entitled to many social services, including education and food stamps for all children - which means taxpayers are funding the entire family. They have well-funded groups lobbying Congress and umpteen Vatican Inc. programs in every city. None of the illegals and certainly none of the hordes of 1000s, like this one, are unaware of the politics or the payout. They come for the payout. Those who support illegal immigrants do so for political gain. Just that simple.
Sadly enough DJT created this he is just too poorly educated to know it.
Simple, 5th grade level root cause analysis could have predicted this. But DJT cannot!
You threaten to build a wall, enact travel bans based on national origin (it does not matter who it targets) and you get this mass migration.
Desperate people trying to leave a dire situation in their homeland anxiously heading north before the “door shuts” in the US and elsewhere.
DJT prompted all of this. Let’s see if he can figure it out.
I say no chance! He has yet to display the type of high level geopolitical intelligence required to meet this challenge.
Vote 11/6!!
5
@Is_the_audit_over_yet. You're kidding right? This problem started with DJT?? It couldn't have anything to do with the democrats mass immigration agenda of the last 50 years?
16
DJT is your president. It’s his issue. This is how elections work.
Don’t blame Dems! (BTW- I am not a democrat!)
The Inter-American Dialogue issued a dismal report last February titled "Educational Challenges in Honduras and Consequences for Human Capital and Development” which says the average Honduran has attended 4 years of school. The global average is 12 years.
I do not know how Hondurans are going to be able to make a living or otherwise fit in with our culture. The PEW Research Center has data on immigrant moms who gave birth in 2014. Honduran immigrants gave birth to 18,726 babies on U.S. soil. 49% of the new Honduran moms were living in poverty. Two thirds of them were not married.
<https://www.thedialogue.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Educational-Chall...
<http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/26/5-facts-about-immigrant-...
Poorly educated people are heavily dependent on welfare yet, many of them do not understand the importance of education. It is perhaps because of this that their children tend not to do well in school. Such families require all kinds of intensive and expensive intervention. We cannot take care of the world. We need to spend our resources on our own poor citizens.
20
@ann
I'm sorry. Every credible study says that these immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in government benefits. Your story sounds good but it is a racially inflected fantasy which is rotten to the core. Is the Trump Republican tax cut taking care of our poor? Is the destruction of the ACA taking care of our poor? Is the Republican plan to decimate Social Security and Medicare taking care of our poor?
ann wrote:
"The Inter-American Dialogue issued a dismal report last February titled "Educational Challenges in Honduras and Consequences for Human Capital and Development” which says the average Honduran has attended 4 years of school. The global average is 12 years.
I do not know how Hondurans are going to be able to make a living or otherwise fit in with our culture. The PEW Research Center has data on immigrant moms who gave birth in 2014. Honduran immigrants gave birth to 18,726 babies on U.S. soil. 49% of the new Honduran moms were living in poverty. Two thirds of them were not married.
<https://www.thedialogue.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Educational-Chall...
<http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/26/5-facts-about-immigrant-..."
1
@ann
The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) itself has come to the same conclusion that I mentioned in my other reply: these immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in government benefits.
1
"the Greyhound bus stations in Tucson are overflowing with new arrivals, and shelters are so full that some migrants are being checked into local motels...."
And people continue to vote for politicians advocating to abolish ICE and a political party who shows little concern for domestic blue collar workers forced to compete with those willing to work for 30% of the minimal wage.
29
This 5,000 strong and growing caravan of refugees is very unfortunate in timing.
Immigration is the Achilles heel of the Democrats, they wrongly assume American Hispanics (which are not even a homogenous bloc) want more Hispanics in the US.
As has been proven many times over throughout Europe, being soft or silent (i.e. allowing the opponent to set the narrative) on immigration is a recipe for electoral punishment.
Trump is all over this and who can blame him, Democrats almost seem like they want to lose.
33
What we are seeing is demographic genocide. The belief some people have that they can destroy their own country and just move to another one.
Population explosions in these countries have made them unlivable. Crimes and environmental devastation lead to intense poverty. But those conditions are self-made.
And we, citizens, are being guilt-tripped into letting it happen here.
Folks- you can only cut the pie into so many pieces. Eventually we all get nothing. I am done. I cannot support any politician who does not acknowledge reality- we are helping people to the point where we are destroying our own future.
Enough. No more.
47
Trump's new plan, "One plan would ask migrants to choose between voluntarily RELINQUISHING their children to foster care or remaining IMPRISONED together as a family". This Orwellian plan would be a stain on America and it's professed values. Trump has also proposed closing the southern boarder completely and using the military to do so, is this a threat or will he follow through, absolutely unnecessary but he and his base are foaming at the mouth at the prospect.
3
Donald, stop whining about this being a Democrat problem. Your party controls the entire federal government. Any problem with any of this is YOUR fault.
13
@YFJ. Not true. The Dems said no to Trump’s offer of citizenship for DACAs and shut the govt down in February.
8
A few questions about this critical situation: Has anyone in the press investigated the reason why all of these struggling people are traveling across borders at this time? Who or what prompted them to come now, late October 2018? Did someone in the current administration send backdoor messages, so they could use the migrants as polo all props?
4
If most of those in the caravan claim they are escaping criminals and gangs in their local communities, why the destination must the US and not the closest neighboring country?
Am sure that this question is in other people's minds here in the USA.
23
@Gian Piero,
Better opportunities here. Being a gang member in those countries doesn't provide a very good standard of living.
Being a gang member in the US can be very lucrative.
13
@WillT26: Rubbish. The Mexican drug cartels and their multitude of gang-member henchmen make a very good living.
2
@Joe Schmoe,
Not Honduran and Guatemalan cartels.
This is a losing issue for the Dems
25
@Prometheus
We all lose if we must view this issue competitively.
4
@Prometheus,
Maybe right now. If they can legalize all these folks it will be electoral gold for them.
1
"Sophie's Choice" in the United States of America.
Have we truly sunk to that new low?
4
I really don't understand why we don't grant asylum to the vast majority of these people headed our way.
Study after study has shown that immigrants greatly contribute to the US economy. Immigrants provide great depth and character to American culture. Immigrants have always been part & parcel to our American identity. What's not to love?
If someone could present an argument for denying these people asylum that makes sense I would listen. But all I hear is Trump stoking irrational fears about Central American countries and blaming Democrats for what -- I'm not sure. His argument is, quite simply, illogical.
I spent ten days in a Central American country in my twenties and quickly bonded -- however impermanently -- with several locals there. Many times, total strangers helped me along my way. I shared a hilarious moment with the passengers of an entire city bus. Even though I would never see them again, those people formed an imprint on my developing self for which I will be eternally grateful. It breaks my heart every time Trump calls these people criminals and rapists.
6
@Vickie I had similar experiences in Latin America in my 20's. I think you are talking about the spontaneity of people who live in the present. It is wonderful to inhabit a realm where you worry little, even though your worries are large. I would like to live in the present and do not.
2
@Vickie: You haven't made a single argument supporting a legitimate case for asylum. Do you even know the conditions under which anyone would be granted the protection of asylum? Poverty isn't good enough.
8
Reading through the comments, I see that most are about keeping the migrants out of the United States. Okay, there has to be a way to do this without traumatizing children. But most commenters seem to ignore how our feelings are being manipulated by Trump. He has no proof that Middle Eastern terrorists are sneaking into the country hidden in the crowd, yet he says it. He has no proof that these people coming this way with their children are murderers and rapists, yet he says it. It's also interesting that he claims Middle Easterners are sneaking in this way while he continues to play footsie with Prince Salman and sell apartments to members of the Saudi royal family, some of whom do partake in criminal activity.
Trump doesn't read but he's somehow absorbed the newspeak of 1984. While you're worrying about Central American migrants, also worry about why your president lies.
5
@Linda: Trump is no doubt speaking out of his you know what regarding Middle Eastern terrorists among this crowd, but that doesn't make one bit of difference as to whether the majority of this caravan has a legitimate case for asylum.
5
We are responsible for the chaos in Mexico, Central America and any other country that smuggles illicit drugs into the United States. We create a very profitable market that illegal gangs fulfill and in the process destroy their country. There are many ways to stop destroying other countries but the main thing to do is to face the problem, stop glorifying drug use in movies and other entertainment mediums, legalize drugs and tax them, using the monies to help drug users, and make education free so people have hope. A lot of people in pain turn to illegal drugs when they can't afford prescriptions. It is still too easy to get addictive pain killers in the United States. Nationalize medical care so practical, not profitable uniform standards on prescribing pain killers can be established.
In the meantime, if people want to register to enter the United States, provide a reasonable avenue, don't take away children from their parents. It is immoral, stupid, will not deter anyone, has devastating effects on the child and costs a lot of money.
5
@Barbara Snider: Central Americans and Mexicans buy and use plenty of drugs themselves. The fact that US citizens also buy and use these drugs is a ridiculous argument for asylum.
12
Sophie's Choice, anyone?
3
@Lisa Merullo-Boaz
Please, no comparison. No child is being killed or murdered, except perhaps by those MS13 gang members trying to gain entry into our country.
4
I came to the country as a legal immigrant 3 years ago, had to go through years in a waiting list, pay numerous fees, several interviews with consular officers who loved that I studied law in my country and I could do the interview in English, I took fingerprints at the American embassy, we had to sell our car to pay for the cost of the process and the medical tests where they stripped me in a room and treated me like an animal, I had to get like 7 vaccines in my arms, wait months for the answer, and when I arrived, 24 hours later I learned the NYC subway and paid for my green card at USCIS. Two weeks later I got a job in Manhattan, the next year I transferred my college credits and at this point I almost have my Bachelors degree, hoping to apply to Law School in the future. I do not feel above anyone, nor do I think I am better than those who come by the border without observing the due process fixed by the immigration law, (remember that immigration is a civil matter, not criminal, so they are considered undocumented immigrants, not "illegal immigrants"), but I believe that respecting the law and the process is much more beneficial than "try out," because you will suffer a lot of abuse at your workplace without papers, a lot of abuse by those who decide to rent you a property illegally, and your children will suffer at school too. So do it correctly and everything will be much better for you and the country that welcomes you.
28
It's almost time for the Trump - NRC - (National Relocation Camps) in Montana, Idaho and West Virginia. Then the construction of the top secret, underground ovens.
Trump rally entourage will take if from there.
Jared can cover all cost with his stolen tax money and his pals in Saudi Arabia. Of course, all migrants will be required to "work" on this project.
4
All efforts at stopping undocumented migration are doomed to fail because the pressure to leave the source countries is too great. If we really want to stop migration the only real solution is to tackle the violence and poverty that causes it at the source. Imagine if we spend the money that is currently used for "border security" on economic development in the countries that migrants come from, we might just wind up far fewer people crossing our borders in the first place. We have been trying to treat the symptom, not the disease. It's a bit like trying to use interdiction to solve our drug problem. Look how well that has worked.
3
Trump cut the aide to those countries by 60%.
5
The US has been allied to corrupt governments in Latin America to get economic benefits. It has also instituted drug wars to deal with an internal US problem. Latin America has for a long time and continues to be affected by US policies. Migrations are the result of those policies. Instead of spending on military aid and supporting corrupt governments, the US could use its resources for building schools, hospitals, roads, housing, mass transportation, etc. This would ensure that the US fat cats (corporate interests) continue to be fed by government, and it would also ensure that the quality of life of Latin American citizens is improved. Then, people will not need to migrate to escape poverty and violence. The US could actually become a benign power and could address societal ills abroad and at a home. It would be a win-win situation. As it is the US is viewed as a destructive power overseas, which creates hatred for Americans. This could change by changing where US's influence and resources are focused on. Imagine no weapons but infrastructure and food! This planet would be so much better.
3
Not a fan of conspiracy theories but am beginning to wonder. Two recent events come to mind. First, Kavanaugh's successful admission to the US Supreme in spite of questions regarding his qualifications. Second, is there any possibility that money was given to the Cherokee nation in order that they denounce Senator Warren's claim of native american ancestry?
Now, on the eve of midterm elections, a huge caravan of Central American migrant is moving toward the US/Mexican border. trump claims this is a national emergency.
Could this be staged? Republicans are well known for amazingly deceitful tactics. What prompted this event so suddenly, and right on the eve of elections?
4
Our inability to stop the caravan from entering our country is outrageous.
Many left of center voters (like me) are fed up with unfettered illegal immigration. That these people are planning to claim asylum is a smoke screen to get in the door. Once in the US they will consume far more than they contribute due to their lack of education and skills and they will never leave.
I care deeply about the growing inequality in our country and mankind's impact on the environment. I want healthcare for all and to make homelessness a thing of the past. But we can't have any of it with continued mass legal and illegal immigration. There are huge societal and fiscal costs to incorporating the poor, semi-literate millions from south of the border.
Despite how much I hate Trump and the Republicans, I see no viable alternative in the Democrats. If the Democrats continue to insist on amnesty and lax border/immigration control, I will vote for Trump in 2020 along with many others like me.
30
@Dan, We can never have nice things here if we keep accepting millions of impoverished illegals. Why should our poor citizens have to compete with them?
13
Stephen Miller needs to get out of the WH. All he has done is increase bigotry, racism and division in this country. He should be no one's advisor.
We all know why he ended up in Sessions office years ago.....he found the most bigoted and biased lawmaker he could to work with and now they both are trying to get as much done in the time they have in office to make America racially divided again.
6
Eventually climate change will reverse itself and people from heat stressed areas in the south will start returning homeward. Gangsters will all get jobs or turn themselves in to authorities and crime will disappear.
Or it won’t and 200 million people will be trying to cross into Canada through the US.
Life here on earth just gets better and better.
3
What will happen to all these Children?
1
@T Hankins
Perhaps the parents should have thought of that before coming here by breaking our laws.
3
While i do not like separation at all. There has to be a legal path.Somewhere deep in the roots of this caravan lies something else. My question would be, Are there more to come/
2
What have we become?
How do we change it?
@George Kamburoff,
We are becoming a third-world nation.
How do we change / stop it? We stop the flow of immigration and accept the gift of a lowering population.
More for everyone! Decreasing CO2 emissions are our population lowers. Win-win-win.
And the money we save processing all these illegals can go towards helping countries start family planning programs- so they can stop breeding themselves into poverty.
15
@George Kamburoff. Open the borders and we "become" a third world country.
12
Change it, by making sure you vote!!!
My former husband had two aunts who lived together in California. One worked hard and the other was a crook, stealing from her own relatives, even stealing from relatives' small children's piggy banks. (This isn't an allegory. This really happened.) When they were both old, the bad aunt intentionally drove her sister crazy, telling her gangs were outside waiting to kill her. She had her well-off sister terrified to go outside, even more terrified to go anywhere or do anything. Meanwhile, the bad aunt spent all her sister's lifesavings, social security, etc.
The term that is popular now is gaslighting. This is what Trump is doing, terrifying his followers into thinking a juggernaut of criminals are coming. Terrify people enough and they don't see or care about all the horrible things you're doing to the rest of their lives. Trump is no different than the thieving aunt. He's just gaslighting on a bigger scale.
8
@Linda
"This isn't an allegory" !!!
Question: So was the "bad aunt" a Republican? Somehow, as I was reading your account, the question crossed my mind--guess this shows what the present context of hyper-partisanship is doing to our thinking these days.
4
Trump would like to be like the German officer who gave Sophie the choice between her children. I'm sure there are some in the caravan who could work at one of his golf clubs cutting grass or cleaning the locker rooms.
6
@steve
A better analogy of Sophie's Choice:
The U.S. deciding between 1st world educated measured English speaking useful immigration that matches our own culture versus the unfettered 3rd world dysfunctional high breeding flotsam we've chosen since LBJ's 1965 rejiggering of U.S. immigration laws.
2
Only one question: who have we become as a nation and as individuals to justify such cruelty?
1
Two thoughts, the trump administration is not actually solving the immigration problem. They aren't even trying to solve it. As the article points out there are MORE migrants now under trump than Obama. I say this as someone who is married to an immigrant.
Second, I'm kind of amazed at how there are thousands of people who will happily take poor work if given the opportunity but this administration wants to send them back. - All those people could rebuild Florida and North Carolina... and Houston and... But it would actually take some thoughtful leadership to turn this into a win win opportunity and the GOP doesn't need any of that actual leadership stuff.
5
I don't agree with Trump on much, but border laws need to be enforced. The only way people should be allowed to plea for asylum is on the other side of the border, not once they're in. Every single person her illegally should be deported. And if democrats don't move to enforce the law, they will be responsible for voting Trump in a second time. This has nothing to do with color, it's about culture. As Europe is finding out, unfettered immigration just leads to bigger ghettos. Parts of America are already looking like the third world.
59
We might start by recognizing that drugs, mostly bought by Americans, fuel the drug lords and violence from which many of these people are escaping. If our families were under such threats, we'd be doing something to save our kids.
Our need of immigrants for labor is fueling it too, especially with unemployment dropping for the past 6 years.
We might also recognize that we've had an absurd immigration policy for decades. But Trump's rhetoric of blaming Dems is absurd; GOP house speaker John Boehner refused to take up the immigration reform bill, which had passed the Senate, the Pres said he'd sign, and the House had more than enough votes to pass it. GOP has thwarted immigration reform.
It might worth noting too that the number of immigration and asylum attempts have increased under Trump; his policies and hate rhetoric aren't working, we need something better.
Of course the only reason that Trump et al are going through these antics is for political reasons - votes on Nov 8th. He got people to cheer for him in 2016 by making up things about immigrants, and he's trying the same thing for the mid-terms. Whether these hate campaigns will do any good, or a wall will ever be built, or Mexico will ever pay a penny of it, aren't of importance to him.
The one thing he's very good at is making up stuff that his fan base will cheer for.
What he's not very good at is addressing problems or finding practical solutions, or even getting his basic facts right.
3
This caravan couldn't have picked a worse time, right before the elections. Democrats will not be incensed by this but it will stir up the trump base.
7
@Steve: What makes you think this caravan "picked" this moment in time?
3
The migrants timing could not have been worse. An "army" of migrants heading for the border of the United States just before a national election. The anti-immigration, pro-Trump voters are energized. The undecided decide to join the anti-immigration, pro-Trump voters. The idealistic, humanitarian voters leave their beliefs at home on election day. Close races could be won or lost based on the actions of a few thousand Honduran migrants. Beto O’Rourke is toast.
Who needs the Russians meddling in our elections when a mob of Hondurans could be more effective?
11
We face, as Americans, a stark choice. Admit illegal migrants and face civilizational breakdown here or fight to preserve our quality of life in North America by keeping them out by whatever means. Immigration is an existential issue whose political importance dwarfs all others
Today’s caravan becomes tomorrow’s invasion and the transformation of the US into the countries they are desperate to leave behind.
39
Is immigration an existential issue, or illegal immigration an existential issue, whose political importance dwarfs all others?
This country has had immigration for a very long time, and the problems with the program have been minimal, but illegal immigration is a whole different animal. Question, do you understand the two fold reason for illegal immigration? To understand illegal immigration, start researching around 1860's, and then move forward to the mid 1960's, then add two and two and it will equal four! I understand what I stated is somewhat cryptic, but you need to understand, the who, what, when, where and how, and then the money involved, and where the money goes, and it will be as clear as the nose on your face.....
1
Why is trying to find ways to minimize the illegal border crossings considered a “a hard line on immigration” as the article says. Is the proposed alternative to “sort of” control the border or not at all? I also wonder what is the acceptable number of illegal border crossings that would be acceptable by those that don’t think this is an issue worth solving now before there is a mass migration and sovereignty problem for the US.
I fully sympathize with people seeking a better life for themselves and their children. I support them fully but we are unable to solve the worlds problems within our borders. We need a means to fix this before we have a bigger problem and that means controlling as best we can the influx of people that are coming now and will continue to come.
Blaming political parties is to shirk our responsibility as citizens to force a solution through Washington. The NYT should help us understand and not polarize the issue with it biased commentary and reporting. Come on NYT, you can do better.
25
@Paul You're spot on... It just goes to show how much of the debate has been given over to the xenophobic Right, and it absolutely should not be like this.
1
You want to immigrate to our country? Do it the right way. Go to the local US embassy or consulate in your home country and apply.
In the meantime learn our language and history. Learn to appreciate our values. Drop your native costumes, where applicable. Convince us that you are worthy of being allowed in. Convince us that you want to be one of us. If you cannot do that then America is not for you.
This sneaking in business has got to stop. In fact, if you do apply to immigrate and in your history it appears that you previously tried to sneak in that makes you a law-breaker and therefore undesirable which would taint your application to legally immigrate. We have enough of our own law-breakers, thank you.
It's like a private club. Whether you get in or not is totally within our sole discretion. You have no right to come here.
41
An unsurprising 'Sophie's Choice' from this hate-filled administration.
NOVEMBER 6TH.
@AWENSHOK. Rediculous false equivalence. No one, not trump, no one, is forcing these people here, unlike your reference scenario. In fact many of us think they should be turned around at the border and sent home as a family.
15
@Al
That's because 'many of you have no idea about the conditions in the countries they are leaving.
Even someone from Rubevill is capable of asking themselves"How bad would it have to be in their countries for them to take a chance of being treated like the Nazis treated those who they hated?
@AWENSHOK
Not even close in comparison.
3
So, with Trump - if you're a prince in Saudi Arabia who has bailed out Trump in the past, personally, and evidence points directly at you in the gruesome murder of a journalist, you're innocent until proven guilty.
If you're poor and you happen to be from South America and are seeking asylum, then Trump is calling you a criminal.
And if you're among those who might object, you're in a "mob".
PLEASE VOTE THIS NOVEMBER. It's not just your civic duty, it's your duty as a decent human being.
5
Decades of the US government's military industrial cesspool's support of militant fascists on behalf of "the economic interests of the United States" has brought this chaos and suffering to the doorstep. These same policies are now being waged against the middle class taxpayers of the USA, who will likewise be forced into abject servitude to their banana republican rulers. Trump has no answers, only exacerbation.
3
@Wolfgang Rain. No, a population explosion from 40 million in 1950 to 180 million now, completely unrelated to u.s. policies is causing this.
7
@Al Good case in point. Lack of education and a resulting reliance on faith-based "birth control," that is, non-existent family planning, are exactly the kinds of long-term social ills that the USA's extract-driven, dictator-supporting policies in Central America have helped to create. Thanks for your input!
Thousands of immigrants heading toward the border..... how could this benefit anyone more than Trump before the election?
10
I just hope the majority of voters on November 6 send a resounding message that America is still a country that values inclusion for all, regardless of skin color.
@Greengag6e. ...and regardless if they come legally or not.
What if uninvited people started to come to your house and forced you to let them enter ?
14
@Greengage. Does this "inclusion" mean all 180 million from Central America should come here? If so, count me and most Americans out.
12
@Al Is that what you got from my comment? Why would all 180 million want to come to the US? It's about 5,000 in that migration.
Children should not be keep with their illegal law breaking parents in huge catchment centers. Centers where adults can corrupt and abuse little kids. We don’t allow that sort of thing in our jail system either! Even for minor crimes such as shoplifting, DC, drugs....Etc.
2
Help Guatemala, buy coffee from them.
Change the world by changing Governments of these countries by helping the people fight for Democracy.
Democracy does work. Fascism does not, only for the rich.
Democracy does not work when corporations are hiring Illegal Immigrants.
4
@s.whether. but when and where (California past months) the authorities are searching for this illegal immigrants hirers, you or people like you protest anyway !
1
It's a foreign invasion. The US Army should treat it accordingly. Ne plus ultra!
12
I wonder if our President gets it yet. That these people aren't coming here on a whim. They aren't coming to steal and rape. They are coming out of desperation, fear and hope for a better life. I'm tired of hearing lies about Democrats wanting to have a lawless nation run over by foreign criminals. That is simply a political move to stir up fear because fear gets people voting. Here is the cold truth. Our politicians on both sides can not even speak to each other and the MUST in order to come up with a solution. We should first increase aid to these countries to improve conditions so people can stay. Second we should conduct thorough background checks and provide legal entry for law abiding refugees that will help and contribute to our country. We should act with logic and compassion....not fear, intolerance and hyper partisanship.
72
@Alk
Dear Alk and all other kind-hearted Americans who advocate for these immigrants. I do understand they come out of desperation in search of better lives for themselves and their family. But recognize this -- as a result of the Europeans coming here (the early ones actually just to explore), the natives here lost their homeland, their lives and cultures.
Given this history, can we be so cavalier and oblivious to the fear some Americans have of being overrun, even if some (not all) of them are racists?
There are thousands and millions of people in the world living in conditions more inferiors than ours and they naturally would like to come live here, and even if we are willing, can we realistically absorb all of them, in terms of resources and cultural integration?
We still have our homeless and sick citizens with no affordable healthcare. Our teachers are screaming to be paid respectably. Even without the latest tax cut by the GOP for the rich, our Medicare, Medicaid and SS programs were already on the path to unsustainability and we have trillions in debt.
I for one would not like to live in a country where sharia law is NOT remotely even a possibility. If there are enough of them here demanding for it, how can we as a country with freedom of religion say no?
I think the Dems need to do more than just "let them in" or condemn Trump. 5000 seems to me an invasion even if they wield no weapons. How many next? 10,000?
Where is our right as a sovereign country?
12
@Doodle. Nobody is advocating letting everyone in or giving up our sovereignty or beliefs (although Trump would have you believe the Democrats are). Caravans of refugees coming from Central America are not going to take away our religious freedoms or hinder our ability to help our own citizens. All I am suggesting is a smart, logical, bipartisan solution driven by facts and compassion and not irrational fears and paranoia. I am tired of hearing our president tell lies and spread fear. He is toying with your emotions for his own political gain.
@Alk
So...some of them are ill intentioned or we would not need the background checks of your last thoughts.
1
Compared to Sophie's choice, the Trump plan's 'binary choice' is quite humane. Shame on us if we support this.
2
Let's keep this simple.
1. POTUS pats himself on the back about the best USA economy in world every time he gets in front of a microphone.
2. POTUS has biggest microphone in the world.
3. All people in the world need food and shelter.
4. People vote with their feet.
5. Those who have never known hunger and constant threat of physical violence cannot easily understand why people walk a thousand miles or more to vote with their feet.
6. This is unfortunately Trump's "let them eat cake" moment and is brainwashing his followers to think the same.
4
If this was about 'fleeing gang violence' and 'corruption' why not settle in peaceful Spanish speaking Costa Rica?
The reason is simple: these are primarily economic migrants and the United States has a porous border and will provide them with food, shelter, medical care and schooling while they are 'processed' through the courts or they can disappear and stay illegally and get paid in cash and never pay taxes
19
The policy that separated more than 2,500 immigrant children from their parents was insane to begin with, and revising it does not solve the problem, which is a U.S. President who is unfit to serve.
2
An estimated 800 million people would want to migrate away from where they currently live. Do we take them all? The Central American migrants take away spots from people from Asia, Africa and Middle East. We need good immigration for population growth and workforce, but America deserves to be able to control it. That is a fair request. Unfortunately POTUS demonizes migrants publicly even though maybe in practice he does not.
3
@Not 99pct. 3 billion people on this planet live on less than 2$/day. They would all come here if we let them. We don't need any more people from anywhere. We need to live within our own means. Something that won't happen until we reduce our population, not add to it.
8
@Not 99pc He does demonize only the ILLEGAL Immigration and that is right
3
Those who are now coming here illegally must be turned around and made to go home. They can apply for legal status just like millions have done before them. Why should these illegals be given preferential treatment and allowed to cut in front of the line. This is unjust to those who have waited years to enter.
We are a nation of laws and they must be followed. Vote Republican 2018 if you want to keep our country safe and secure.
21
It makes me wonder how those who feel we should open our border to illegal immigrants would react one day should they open their front door to a family of four illegals waiting to come in. Me thinks they would be more than willing to house, clothe, feed, educate, protect and supply medical care for an indefinite amount of time until they were ready to strike out on their own. And, if for some reason they never got ready, that would be alright too; they could just stay put with them. I mean what kind of person would that be that was enthusiastic about allowing illegals into our country, let someone else take care of them and then complain about how they were doing it?
26
@Kurt Pickard
According to a report by The Congressional Budget Office: "...in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."
4
Which Russian intelligence agency is behind this movement? Who is financing this? You simply cannot move this number of people without serious financial backing.
These folks are weaponized. This is another alternative to disinformation and cyber warfare.
4
His own personal frustrations must not get in the way of reason.
Trump has not yet pushed the idea of putting those children in school boards and raise them as Republicans.
This will be the turning point in the midterm elections. Migrants on the march are the perfect gift for Trump & the GOP. This plays perfectly into the FOX News narrative that Democrats are offering illegals free healthcare, welfare, food stamps, drivers licenses, schooling, in-state-tuition, sanctuary, & voter registration forms. The Democrats strategy & tactics to win the election is slowly coming apart. It's been one blunder after another. The messy judicial hearings, calls to impeach, the Heidi Heitkamp apology, Elizabeth Warren DNA tests, mobs harassing politicians, Hillary and now the Caravan fiasco. Turn on CNN. They are running non stop video of this massive caravan surging across a bridge leading to Mexico before they were halted in a confrontation with a police in riot gear. No matter where you stand on immigration this is alarming. Why are Democrats pretending this isn't happening? Why doesn't someone in the party leadership respond? Trump is responding. He's telling his people that Dems want open borders. Get out and vote or else. Vote for Republicans or you will be overrun. Democrats are angry but Trump voters are scared. Scared beats angry every time. The GOP base will turn out in huge numbers ...pretty much guaranteed with this caravan dominating the news every day until we vote. This ongoing drama will motivate not just the conservative base, but fair-minded Independents who are mad that Democrats don't have the guts to address our immigration problems head on.
25
@Bill Brown. "the FOX News narrative that Democrats are offering illegals free healthcare, welfare, food stamps, drivers licenses, schooling, in-state-tuition, sanctuary, & voter registration forms." Except for the voter registration forms, which is probably happening but hasn't been proved, this is reality, Fox news didn't have to make it up.
4
Instead of the ankle bracelets could we tattoo them on the left forearm with a number... wait that might draw unwelcome comparisons, we could use a "chip" and track them like people do with family pets. We can do better.
We could also have them give up something of value, maybe, they could cut off a finger or two, a kidney, or part of a liver, or sacrifice a child. A pound or flesh.
See, solves multiple problems at once.
We need to vote out the Republicans who are letting this happen in our name.
3
In a now typical switcheroo, Trump initially accused Democrats of responsibility for the migrant/refugee caravan.
Clearly, if there were any motive to stoke a border crisis, it was his--to heat up his base and perpetuate fear-mongering among the undecideds. Did his administration tell mexico to remove their 200 policemen blockade ?
Rather than create a war on Iraq or ISIS, Trump has decided to create hot crises to bolster his image as tough guy--Russian arms treaty, Chine trade, and --immigration. What is missing is a reasoned, smart, strategic policy to deal with these issues.
Trump runs the country like a reality TV show--for ratings & hype, not sound governance in service of the national interest.
5
When I was a young man, the GOP railed against black people, claiming that they were too lazy to work. Now they warn us about brown people because they are willing to work. Over this same period, illicit drug users where characterized as predominantly black criminals who should be locked up. Now the focus has shifted to predominantly white opiate addicts who are viewed as despairing victims who should be pitied and perhaps even helped, so long as that doesn’t require taxes or regulations. In my view, people from South and Central America who have the gumption to run the gauntlet and arrive at the border should be welcomed, not feared. If America wants to reduce the flow of migration, we should work to improve the conditions that drive people from their homelands. Building walls is futile in the face of human drive and ingenuity, unless the goal is simply political marketing.
3
Please tell me why the United States should be a welfare state for an uneducated Honduran 17 year old with two children? That is who is coming here. This is not hyperbole - it’s a woman CNN interviewed yesterday. The failure of personal responsibility in those countries is not our fault. We should not condone unfettered economic migration - how about teaching family planning instead?
Why should we let in those who openly admit to being economic migrants who show the same open contempt for our laws?
In 2008, an illegal immigrant from Mexico without car insurance nearly killed me by driving over a freeway offramp barrier into the side of my car as he had missed the exit and was illegally exiting instead of processing on the freeway. The driver in the car behind me said he thought we were both dead. We do not need more illegal immigrants in to the United States who live in the shadows. There are consequences. This has to stop.
46
These migrants are ensuring that there is no blue wave for democrats.
20
President Trump has blatantly lied before in blaming the Democratic Party for his family separation policy. Now we have some comments here parroting those lies and blaming the Democrats for the immigrant caravan.The Republicans have controlled both houses and the Presidency for years now. Any perceived failures in immigration policy are on them. Could it be that this is an incredibly complex, intractable problem, one that Trump is utterly failing to control, so of course he has to blame someone else for his own inadequacy?
1
Please give us more Information about WHY the people's countries are no longer habitable and how this country might help.
6
I don't really understand the concern over immigration either. I live in a city where the foreign population is somewhere north of 10 percent. We're not high on the list but the immigrant population is by no means insignificant either. I also traditionally live in the more diverse parts of town. I have neighbors from Mexico, Guatemala, Pakistan, India and South Africa on my block alone. Those are just the foreigners I know personally too. I fail to see how their presence is a problem.
You listen to someone like Bob Chivers and you just have to scratch your head. Who is getting overrun? You live in a city founded by the Spanish and controlled by Mexico beginning with the nation's creation. Why are you upset? The Latinos are the one's who should be upset. Your very presence in Arizona is a direct reflection of White Man's Burden and Manifest Destiny. Chivers' position is like saying white Americans are getting overrun because Native Americans were on the land before they got here. Unbelievable.
In any event, people aren't walking from Guatemala to El Paso for the exercise. There are legitimate social and economic problems throughout Central America which the US played a roll in creating. Instead of dealing with the faucet though, Trump supporters are trying to stop a leak by catching the water in their hands. If they could pull their heads out of the sand for a minute, they might notice there are better ways to slow immigration than border enforcement.
3
@Andy. Slc has bad air, dwindling water supplies, is spectacularly crowded increasing crime and a booming population. I'm not sure adding more people whether by a high birth rate or immigration is going to solve anything. Edward Abbey, a favorite of the Utah crowd, "growth for the sake of growth is a cancerous madness". It's still relevant today.
8
@Al
I was familiar with Edward Abbey long before coming to Utah. I don't see how preventing growth is a long term solution to a trend that is going to happen anyway. Abbey also said "Better a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion." You're not stopping population growth here or anywhere else. Get used to it.
And anyway, I live here. The only thing getting worse are the lines for the ski resorts. Controlled for population growth, both air quality and water consumption are improving. Crime is nearly non-existent to begin with. You get big percentage changes when you're comparing small numbers.
I've been here more than five years. The city is only healthier than when I first arrived. In 20 or 30 years, I'll be concerned about the mounting threats from climate change. However, if we take steps now to improve the city's future, we probably won't even notice.
Not to get all cliche but I accept the things I cannot change; I change the things I can.
@Andy. I lived in slc for quite awhile. The air, the skiing, the desert, the congestion was all better. I've never been anywhere that I looked around and said, "what would make this place better is more people". I'm not ready to sacrifice what is left of the planet to unlimited human growth at the expense of everything else. That is being done in China, India most places and here. We can still slow it down here. Please feel free to immigrate to those other places if that is what you prefer.
The Trump policy to deter migration is ridiculous: migrants must apply to the Mexicans for asylum before seeking asylum in the U.S. That is not consistent with American values and it will not deter migration.
The vast majority of migrants are not seeking asylum in Mexico and, in any event, it sounds like the Mexican government either does not want them, or does not want the entire problem foisted upon It. The vast majority of migrants are desperate and are fleeing a desperate situation.
U.S. cooperation and coordination with Mexico would be better than mass chaos. How about setting up a joint processing center in Mexico in conjunction with the Mexican authorities? At the very least, this would avoid a repeat of the disaster at our borders that occurred the last time around.
We need strong borders and a rational immigration policy. But we must be fair, humane and organized in the implementation of our policy.
5
Is all this a campaign stunt by Trump in light of the midterms? I hope so. This country can't afford millions of poor people climbing over our fences to deteriorate our lifestyle we have worked so hard to achieve and maintain. I hope Trump is wildly successful. And so do many millions of Americans.
11
The timing of this is too suspicious to ignore the probability that Republican (or Russian) operatives are somehow behind the wheel. Trump loves to campaign on immigration, and this plays right into his hands.
1
How about not letting them in the country in the first place. How are they to be absorbed/vetted/educated? At what cost to the existing population?
168
@June
At what cost? How about your humanity. Once you lose any compassion for the suffering and poor, can you call your self a human being?
4
@patrick ryan. By this reasoning we should allow the billions of poor around the world into the u.s. That should make everybody feel great!
@June Agreed. I detest Trump but, if stopping this flood requires it: Build the Wall!
4
Being separated from their children is not going to stop parents fleeing gangs who would murder their children. But for all that I support immigration, Dreamers, etc. the current migrant “caravan” surging towards our border does give me pause. The graphics are dramatic and scary. And it is a godsend for the GOP that it is moving north right before the election. It is likely to swing some on the fence voters towards the GOP. We need some kind of humane enforceable immigration policy!
59
@Alexandra Hamilton I've asked myself if the timing is a coincidence...
5
In reply to Alexandra Hamilton NYC
We already have a humane enforceable immigration policy. It is existing US immigration law.
4
Is there a middle ground to be reached? Can we help those seeking asylum enter this country legally and obtain legally protected status while being able to secure our borders? Could we do this while applying some of our bloated military budget to humanitarian aid in the countries from which these asylum seekers come, recognizing the US’s part in creating the horrible situations they face at home? On a bigger level, can republicans view this issue from a humanitarian perspective and can Democrats consider the logistical truths of the situation? I’m a liberal, democratic voter and this issue is absolute madness from both sides. I would like to see the Democrats focus on making progress on this issue and turning to other big picture issues like climate change, universal health care, and economic reform rather than getting caught up in identity politics yet again. Surely the transgender decision put out yesterday is a red herring put out by the trump administration to keep liberals occupied while bigger picture policies continue to be enacted by republicans. So frustrating to watch on so many levels.
31
This is a serious problem but we're are such cowards in the manner that it is being dealt with.
Over the past several years, European countries (Italy and Scandinavian countries come immediately to mind) have been able to manage waves of African immigrants with care and compassion and with less resources than the US has. Their processes have not been perfect but no one would doubt the sincere effort these countries are making to handle a very difficult problem.
Here, on the other hand, our solution is kidnapping as a deterrent. God bless America.
39
@A. Jubatus. Not true. Europe is in chaos over immigration and it is leading to a right wing resurgence. Borders are going up and the population is calling for far more restrictions. This is not an easy issue to deal with.
20
There is a HUGE backlash growing in Italy and Scandinavian nations because of the swelling immigrant communities and their inability or unwillingness to assimilate and integrate into the cultures and laws of their host nations. I know this because my part of my family and friends are Swedish and Norwegian.
12
@A. Jubatus The measures taken by the EU to stop refugees are not as honorable as you describe. Child abuse in Libyan militia-led refugee camps, for example, is well documented. It was the awful price the otherwise principle minded EU chose to pay for political stability. Europeans and Americans will vote parties soft on immigration out. The Democrats, as always, are slow on the uptake.
5
Dark, dark times for our country. I don’t want to be ashamed of my country and there is so much to be proud of in the ideals of America, but every day, I’m embarrassed and outraged by the Trump administration. And it’s hard to be a parent and to talk to my childrenabout what it means to be an American. I don’t know any more what it means.
55
@Galfrido
Remind your children that we are a country of laws and we must follow the law. If you don't like the law, change it.
11
I would suggest to better differentiate between “migrants”, “refugees” and “illegals”. Describing the people who are literally walking towards the US boarder as migrants only is ignoring the political situation these people are trying to escape from in their home countries and is playing into the hands of radicals who already describe these people as criminals etc. We do not help to establish stable and safe conditions in numerous South American countries...so now the results of these unsolved problems are “walking” towards us. The exactly same happened with the Syrian refugees across Europe and the simplistic approach of the current administration to solve the problem is all but certain to fail. I remember very well how Mr.Trump was ranting about Merkel’s handling of the refugee crisis in 2015. Here is his opportunity to do better.
23
How about some accountability to the corrupt inept governments that cause the horrible conditions that make their citizens flee ? Thoughts? And please don't tell me it is Trumps or Obama's fault. Thank you.
80
@improv58 And what, pray tell, would that be? This is a complex situation that will require work at many levels to address. Governance issues in CA are part of the problem, to be sure, but so are poverty, education, healthcare, illegal drugs, and gangs in those countries. We are implicated in several of those and could certainly be a big help in addressing all of them if we chose to.
Simplistic solutions like a wall or demanding accountability by governments don't have a chance if we don't step up and play a positive role in addressing the other causes. It's absurdly self-damaging not to do so - as long as our neighbors are miserable we will pay through the nose in one way or another.
1
The corupt inept government, was The United States.....Remember Oliver North, need I continue?
1
@improv58 We created and put many of these governments in place. This is what we do. We just cut food aid to these countrys effective Oct. 1. The GOP was warned this would happen but they know better than experts and didnt care. Now we have all these immigrants coming, and by law they MUST come to our border to ask for safety, refuge and cant do it any other way. Not even at an embassy. We have no money or resources to house, feed or vet these people. We have no money at all. The New Tax Law has left our bank accounts bare. We are borrowing more and more money. The deficit is growing like a bad weed. Are we going to just shoot them all dead as they approach? Did Trump expect Mexico to shoot them all dead at his request? I'm not sure of the answers but I do know we (the US) caused this and these immigrants ARE doing what they are legally required to do under US law to ask for safety!
1
People fleeing endemic violence and poverty will keep coming north regardless of US policy, just as women who need abortions will continue to get them regardless of Supreme Court decisions, just as transgender people will continue to exist regardless of administrations.
Legitimate policy works with reality. The US fueled violence in Central America, first with anti-communist wars and insatiable appetite for drugs. Then MS13 and other gangs arose when U.S. gang members were deported to countries they'd never lived in. The Mexican Zapata cartel emerged from people given brutal training as special ops. Stripping humanity from someone has ramifications. Trump's "Sophie's Choice" policy does it again.
The U.S. has the resources to help C. America's very small countries get on their feet. They need justice, land reform, and a generous legal immigration method. The U.S. can't do much in big countries, or far-away ones, but has leverage nearby. Money and legality can go a long way.
We need the courage to face history.
65
@Brian. We need the courage to face reality. The population of Central America has gone from ~40 million in 1950 to 180 million now. None of the stuff you propose ( although all nice ideas) will change anything unless family planning is at the top of the agenda. This is simply too many people by many times for that area to support. If allowed to come here, we will soon be in the same boat, as our lifestyle is much more wasteful (which is a different though very important issue).
7
@Brian We do give them money -- hundreds of millions $$ a year! They choose not to spend it on justice, land reform, or controlling gangs and drugs. We'd do better by giving the money we give now to the politicians to the people who come to the border, in exchange for their promise to go back and spend it at home.
3
Political gain by exacerbating other people's misery! What a concept!
Quite the opposite of "I was a foreigner and you took me in." (Jesus, Matthew 25:45)
3
We've got millions of Americans dealing with murder and poverty and gang infestation in neighborhoods all over the country
Where is their asylum??
29
Have you been to San Pedro Sula? 40% unemployment, average wage is $4per day for those employed. Murder rate is 10x that of our highest cities.
1
@SXM. So your solution, and I use the word loosely, is to bring them all here?
The most talked-about alternative would be a variation of the family separation policy. Parents would be forced to choose between voluntarily relinquishing their children to foster care or remaining imprisoned together as a family. The latter option would require parents to waive their child’s right to be released from detention within 20 days.
Love it
1
@Luciano
Only a depraved, unethical person would "love" separating children from their parents or putting refugees in jail.
I wonder how you'd feel if you were born in a poverty-stricken and corrupt country, and after finally escaping you reach a "free" country that jails you and kidnaps your children.
It's amazing how ignorant of this country's history Trump's supporters are. We are a nation of immigrants. You want nativism? Let's all leave the country and give it back to Native Americans.
5
@Luciano. Separation is not good or right. Send them home together as a family.
2
Trump has cut aide to countries like El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala 60% and expects that their situations will get better so they want to stay where they are? And now he threatens to cut it all if they make it to our border. Since when do we use humanitarian funds as political leverage?
5
Shouldn't US press countries in Central America to have their house in order by offering aid and prevent this migration?
This is not going to stop.
These people have learned to use their children to seek sympathy.
What is next, the entire LATAM on a migration path to the US border?
19
@AB Aid to these Central American countries goes into their corrupt leaders' pockets.
2
Trump is trying to play up fears of this caravan of Central Americans in Mexico because he and his Trumpublicans have done little to NOTHING to help real Americans IN AMERICA with the opioid epidemic, our crumbling infrastructure, and healthcare.
Trump crows about our strong economy, but what good is wealth on paper (Wall Street) doing for any Americans but the wealthy when the rest of us can't afford health insurance, face rising auto maintenance and new-tire costs because our roads are so bad, and our kids are dying from drug addiction at a rate of 200 overdose deaths PER DAY!
And have you noticed the climate change problems the Trumpies ignore?
Vote D for a worldview and vision that improves ALL our lives and keep Trump from making things any worse.
13
I don't know what they'd tell their neighbor or a pollster but if Trump sent the US Military down to the border to prevent this caravan from entering a strong majority of the country would agree with him
66
Yes. Because "this caravan" still half a country away is really what we should be focusing on.
3
Welcome to Germany of the 1930s, USSR's entire existence, and China post-1949.
When it comes to human rights abuses, Trumpster and his predictable abuses "wins" another of his coveted prizes. He bullies defenseless refugees seeking freedom and accuses them of baseless charges including criminal behavior.
Separating families who are seeking refuge in the USA, forcing adults including parents to turn back (who are willing to work), and housing children away from their parents in "child concentration camps" located in the USA without any communications or cross check with their parents' locations is medieval behavior and in conflict with our nation's Constitution, customs, and traditions. This reminds me of the catastrophes I read about and studied occurring in Germany during WWII, occurring African nations over the past several hundred years, and, most recently, in Syria and other Middle East countries.
I suspect history will remember Trumpster and his bigoted minions as the monsters they appear to be.
What I want to know is why our legislative branch of our Federal govt is tolerating this abuse.
Our American dream has been spoiled irrecoverably and, I am saddened that is my never recover. Our national leadership appears no more humane and responsible than the totalitarian autocrats that our nation has opposed and sought to replace throughout our entire history.
10
Trump’s peanut gallery may enjoy psychologically harming small children and their parents but the rest of the country does not. I hope that he can be compelled to show compassion.
10
The Democrats never utter a single word in opposition to illegal immigrants or securing the border. All they talk about is abolishing ICE and being in favor of sanctuary cities and repeatedly objecting to illegals being approached at schools or churches or being asked their status during a census.
It is patently absurd
They are tightening a noose around their 2020 chances and insuring that Trump gets a second term
87
This is simply nonsense, not least because Democrats cut a deal that gave Trump most everything he wanted, a deal he insisted that he’d accept...until he changed his tiny mind.
4
Not entirely true, but why should they when in reality -- not Trump's Fake News world -- immigration issues are not actually in the top 5 of our most pressing problems:
(in no particular order)
•infrastructure
•healthcare
•opioid epidemic
•climate change
•stemming Trump's power and corruption and repairing the negative impact of his negligence and ineptitude in domestic and foreign policy
4
@Luciano
Did you hear this on Fox News perhaps?
1
I hope I'm wrong, but this whole event is looking more and more like a campaign stunt, organized and conveniently timed with the start of early voting by Republican campaign managers. How are the migrants getting sufficient food, water, diapers along their long, long march? I would not be surprised to learn that this march has been staged for TV. In the next act of this show, Donald Trump will stand in a US tank at the border, threatening to order "Fire" on the crowd, so he can continue to play the part of the tough bully he so enjoys. PT Barnum was his hero, I've read.
"Binary solutions" is such a juvenile way of thinking. There are other choices than forcing parents to choose separation or safety for their children. For example, Evangelical megachurches should step up to lead other faith communities, as directed in their Bible, Matt. 25:35: 'For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink; I was a foreigner, and you invited me in.' Faith in action. Imagine. You will say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one . . .
7
@oh really I agree. The timing is not coincidental, and the plot will reach its intended climax just in time to reinforce the fabricated image of the blue mob. Every bit of the last 3 years has been cruel theater. He is on the verge of starting a war on this continent.
I've got to say that I'm disappointed that the Times is not investigating the claims of the migrants a little more fully. Where are the interviews with the leaders of Honduras and Guatemala, asking them why they cannot curb the violence? If these countries are in fact lawless, would U.S military action be justified to curb the crisis? Times reporters take the claimants at their word that their motivation is violence or fear of death, when a more reasonable explanation would be that they just need to make more money. I don't deny that motivation, but it is not grounds for asylum.
94
These hard inconvenient but necessary questions will be asked the next time a Democrat president has to face the same crisis and may have to make the same hard decisions Trump is faced with now. Until then ...
6
You want The NY Times to ask the guy who has been violently cracking down on protests in his country, killing dissidents, and has been accused of voter fraud and corruption why people are fleeing Honduras? What exactly do you think he’s going to say?
3
@Bryan. This illustrates the complexity of the problem. On the one hand these countries seem incapable of managing there own societies and on the other woe be to the USA if it intervenes. No good answers but just allowing hordes - and that is what we are facing - in isn’t a solution.
5
This is why diplomacy and a state department matter......
6
@T
Our State Dept. and diplomacy has done squat over 50 years in protecting the U.S. from illegal immigrants flooding over the borders or gaming the broken visa system.
2
This is ridiculous. Not a single proposal from Democratic politicians on how to stop mass hordes of illegal immigrants. Just continued opposition to Trump’s efforts to control the mayhem at our border. Shameful dereliction of duty by our elected officials. Democrats - you have failed us.
112
@AVR The GOP has had control of Congress and the WH for almost two years and should be able to pass an immigration bill if they wanted to, without Democratic help. So you have to ask yourself why they have not done so. You are right that it is a dereliction of duty by elected officials.
20
@Patrick You need 60 votes in the Senate to get an immigration bill though.
How is this the Democrats fault? The GOP has full control of everything.
Two bipartisan bills were ready to be signed but Trump in the past 2 years on immigration but he vetoed them both. Even though both bills had funding for part of the wall and more border security. Trump, in reality, doesn't want legislation on immigration. Otherwise he would have signed those bipartisan bills.
1
The criteria for asylum were developed internationally as a response to WWII. Economic migrants do not qualify. The whole treaty system needs to be revisited in light of new forces displacing populations as a result of environmental as well as social changes, which in turn create economic havoc. When traveling in South America I met a businessman from Central America who had received asylum in Columbia. We are not the only option. But because of not only our standard of living, but decades of lax immigration enforcement, we likely have the strongest network of family and friends to receive new immigrants, which is why they think of the US first.
43
Just a word about ankle monitors (whose efficacy escapes me, along with most other Trumpian ideas).
A relative of mine had to wear an ankle monitor for a year as part of a DUI conviction. Such monitors are not "fire and forget" devices. They require periodic visits to the issuing agency to check on calibration and the power supply. (In my relative's case, it was once a month and required a fee of $40 per checkup.)
If widely used, they would require yet another layer of "agents" atop those already existing.
7
It would appear that illegal immigrants are now using their children as hostages to make it impossible to do so.
The only way to deal with a problem like this is to take firm action to insure that the law is enforced.
To the extent that we fail to support strong measures against illegal immigration, we are handing votes to Donald Trump and the neo-Fascist right, with all that that entails.
69
These are poor desperate people. Maybe the US should stay out of Latin America. Our policies create economic upheavals and violence.
10
@Zejee
Being poor is not a justification to stay here illegally.
1
@Zejee
What do you mean by staying out of Latin America? Stopping trade? Ending diplomatic relations? Banning tourism there? Please explain what American policies are causing upheavals and violence without falling back on political interventions of the 20th century, mostly against dictatorships. Has America not also provided aid and development assistance? Hasn't business activity been on balance, mutually beneficial? Is America responsible for the desperation in Venezuela? Did American policies cause all political dysfunction, overpopulation, gang violence, drug trafficking, lack of education and poverty? Of course these are poor desperate people. There are poor desperate people all over the world including this country. They don't all belong in the U.S.
2
The violence tied to drug cartels has forced these people to seek humane living conditions. Until the illegal drug industry ceases to exist conditions will remain unlivable for these people. Who uses the drugs? Unfortunately, Americans do.
#1 priority should be to help our fellow citizens get off illegal drugs. No demand, no supply. I realize this is probably a pipe dream. But the discussion should focus on deterring our people from becoming addicts in the first place. Better to find a way to deal with addiction. It's very sad that the "Sophie's Choice" solution is being proposed by the administration. It's not a solution to the real problem.
17
@J Alfred Prufrock
How does the drug cartels encourage violence in those countries and force people there to come here.
That isn't true.
It's just the opposite.
It creates jobs there.
There are other reasons
1
Oh, for Pete's sake. Just let them in and let's move on to other things. What's Trump doing about improving education in this country? Right now schools are turning out dimwits. What's his plan for Social Security and Medicare? Are Republicans really going to cut benefits? That will have more impact on me than some immigrants coming in. And, when is he ever going to address health care? I want him to stop campaigning. Stop flying off every weekend, at my expense, to play golf. Stop bellowing about Kavanaugh--that's over. Stop complaining about Hillary Clinton--she's over, too. Stop bragging how he won an election two years ago. And, speaking of that, two years he's been in office, and all he's done is pass a huge tax cut for his rich friends (I sure didn't see a penny of it) and add some tariffs to foreign products. Big deal.There are other issues that need to be looked at and dealt with. Can he just get off his fixation with these immigrants and the national anthem, stop bragging about himself and start working on what really matters?
54
@Ms. Pea. You realize, I'm sure, that most of the issues you talk about are negatively impacted by importing huge numbers of unskilled, uneducated people with large families? Everything is connected. Adding to our millions of poor people does not make: education, school crowding, social security, healthcare, unemployment, the environment, wealth inequality or much of anything else better.
24
@Ms. Pea
We can't move to the next issue.
You can't ignore his issue because if you let all of them in then many more will come in the future and that is not acceptable.
18
@Ms. Pea For Pete's sake? Such in depth analysis. Open up your wallet and pay for the social services they will need for decades to come.
20
Were these people simply seeking a lower murder rate than Honduras, they would stop in Mexico whose rate is c.60% of Honduras’. Unsaid often in media, they actually are coming for more things than Mexico, Costa Rica, or Nicaraqua offers.
These countries should ask to be US territories because they are dysfunctional in the extreme but the US would have to clean up its act with territories. The US Virgin Islands are in the top ten worst murder rate countries worldwide and that is probably due to low budgets for a criminal justice sector.
From Brazil to Mexico is majority high murder rates with no death penalty and only a 4% murder conviction rate in Guatemala...ergo not even captial punishment would help Guatemala. Globally the death penalty clearly deters when the poor number in the tens of millions per UN data which shows death penalty dominant Asia as number one lowest murder rate globally and Northern Latin America ( non death penalty) as most murderous...both with majority poor. Mildly affluent areas don’t need executions as deterrence...Europe ( second safest), New Hampshire, Japan which has execution but probably would be little different without it. China is the proof that execution (non delayed) stops murders and drug dealing despite widespread low income...point 74 per 100,000 murder rate to Brazil’s 29 per 100,000 murder rate.
5
Beware of dubious causalities. There are many factors that influence murder rates. Violent criminals and cartels are not deterred by penalties, capital or other. The entire unfocused argument of this comment mainly brings to mind Daryl Huff's classic How to Lie with Statistics. In our country murder rates are very high in Texas, one of the most prolific executioners.
5
@Chuck Burton
Triad members in China stopped drug dealing to a great extent because China, unlike Texas, does not have ten years of appeals.
This is the reality of many years of economic exploitation of Central America by US corporations - which all of us have benefited from, by the way - literally coming home to roost.
Democrats, rather than simply playing holier than thou with Trump, should have the guts to confront this issue head on. This is a foreign policy problem as well as a domestic one. The US needs to get pro-active as a leader for positive change in the region, addressing the crime and corruption that are at least partially our fault (to be generous) in places like El Salvador and Honduras.
People who want to demonize the refugees should consider: they are the victims here, the powerless. If a few are criminals it's more than a little understandable, but I have no doubt that the vast majority are simply trying to live safe and productive lives.
This problem isn't going away by "building a wall" or moralizing about Dreamers. This is the time to think globally, but in a way that doesn't just benefit corporations.
10
@mijosc
Where do you get this stuff from.
What economic exploitation.
Children have been exploited but that isn't the reason they are coming here now.
2
@mijosc
The migrants are operating in their own perceived self interest. It isn't about blaming them. The question is whether this country has a right and a duty to limit entry or whether our borders should be open to the world.
You seem to be advocating U.S. takeover of the governments of El Salvador and Hondouras, at a minimum.
2
I have long ago turned off my personal Boo Hoo Machine from being activated by this issue. If we don't stop untrammeled, unchecked immigration from whatever country, we will soon have a billion people living in our country, competing for ever-scarcer resources and degrading our standard of living. The USA is ruled by law, not by political correctness, and Title 8, United States Code, is the immigration law that is merely being enforced.
143
These are poor desperate families fleeing from conditions exacerbated by US meddling.
1
We have very low unemployment rates right now, which are threatening to impede our productivity. Allowing more immigrants to enter the workforce will benefit the US economy in the long run.
4
@Tournachonadar
Best Comment of the Day..............IMO.
2
I can't believe that this is America. Really, I can't believe it. I feel like I'm living in some surrealistic nightmare.
18
Perhaps, we would do better to find policies that would welcome them and find them a place to work and live safely. Unemployment is at an all time low, companies are running short of labor. We have had several natural catastrophes that need laborers to help rebuild communities. Let us match our need with theirs. Let us welcome those who are yearning to breathe free. Let's make America great again.
113
@Joe Barnett. So just when employment is low and wages are starting to rise, we should tilt the balance in favor or an over supply of labor?
47
@Al I believe our economy can grow and accomodate more workers. Their productivity will create even more jobs.
3
@Joe Barnett. Sorry joe. The path to economic prosperity is not by importing poverty and an over supply of labor. Economics 101.
2
Before you let your emotions (for or against letting everybody in) think about the numbers. In 1950 the population of Central America was ~40 million. It is now ~180 million. Intervention by the u.s. in this part of the world have not helped. Otoh, the biggest issue facing that part of the planet and by extension everywhere else is obvious and it isn't u.s. racism. At the same time if your are advocating opening the borders to the all the unhappy people on earth (or even just Central America) you need to come up with a number that is acceptable and who it should be. Unless your calculator is broken, these kinds of numbers call out for a new solution to the poverty and violence of CA then moving them here.
44
@Al Not disagreeing with your basic conclusion, but disagree with your numbers. Here's the data from Wikipedia.
``Central America consists of seven countries: Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama. The combined population of Central America has been estimated to be 41,739,000 (2009 estimate) and 42,688,190 (2012 estimate).''
2
“I request asylum.”
It’s the golden ticket. Immigration activists know it and now millions of foreigners know it.
Once someone presents themselves at the border, they simply utter the three magic words and are automatically granted entry into the United States. Their case will be evaluated quickly, but if they are denied, they can simply appeal and wait for a court date in a couple of years. During this time, they are free to work in the U.S. Then they can either attend their court date, or just blend into the underground economy, waiting for the next government amnesty program.
Unless the U.S. withdraws from the U.N. refugee treaty (which won’t happen), there is only one answer – rapid processing. All initial applications must be processes within a week, and all appeals within a week after that. During this time, all applicants must be held in confined processing centers at the border. Most applications will be properly rejected and the applicants must be flown immediately back to their home countries.
We need more a lot more judges and border agents to quickly process the applications. The extra costs for processing and repatriation should be paid from a 1% remittance tax, which could generate about $150 million from Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador alone.
If we don’t start rapid processing, today’s 5,000 person caravans will be tomorrow’s 20,000 person caravans. But, then again, that’s exactly what Soros and the Koch Brothers want.
85
Then perhaps US should stop meddling in Latin America causing economic upheavals and violence.
4
That happened a generation ago. More than enough time to get over it
2
Why do American citizens have to suffer the consequences of Republican policies? If you want you help these people, help them stay in their home nations. Bringing the entire population of nations we've meddled in is not realistic.
4
The Great Horrific and Inhumane Punisher!
That's how Trump will be recorded in the history books.
10
Immigration Reform.
Avenatti 2020, for now listen to a common sense American running for office with ideas and plans to save our Democracy. That is Avenatti.
Americans must be strong again, not wrong again. Strength in Ideals with borders, not borders with guns.
3
@s.whether Never heard of Avenatti
2
@s.whether
Avenatti cannot save himself...........he surely cannot save this country.
Avenatti makes good attorneys cringe.
3
This will just continue to be a winning issue for Trump and the Right as long as they have a monopoly on a the platform for strong border security. If the Democrats adopted that policy and actually promised action and followed through with it... Texas would legit be in play for them as would other border states... For the life of me I do not understand why the Democrats don't simultaneously push single payer health care and a tough stance on illegal immigration. We could actually see progressive policies with the elections they could finally win if they'd secure the border and stop getting mired in bogus identity politics and virtue signaling about diversity...
25
@OK Josef. The democrats solution is always another amnesty, loose border controls, circumventing immigration laws, sanctuary cities, abolishing ice and higher immigration numbers. I've never voted for a republican but if the choice is ever more mass immigration with the social and environmental havoc it produces, that the democrats advocate, I'm ready to vote for anyone else. This issue gave trump 2016. It will do it again if the democrats don't come to their senses.
26
@OK Josef You are absolutely right. If I could find a Democrat with the same tough approach to immigration I would vote for him or her. It may take a Civil War to get both sides to deal with this problem We have made amazing technical progress but went backwards on every other issue.
3
How about pressuring our government to stop interfering in Latin America causing economic turmoil and violence. These are poor desperate families trying to escape conditions exacerbated by US policies.
1
When my father came to this country as a 40 year old refugee from Nazi Germany with my mother and me in tow, he saved string.
He arrived nearly penniless, had very little English except what he could discern as a result of his gymnasium classes in Latin and found a job at a May Company Department Store as a worker in their stockroom.
Thrifty by nature and upbringing, he was astounded to learn that large quantities of string were being discarded every day, and began saving the string for reuse later.
For his trouble, he got laughed at by the other stock boys and his boss, all of them native-born Americanos.
Skip ahead a few years, and my father and mother had opened a tiny store where they and several chocolate-dippers produced great chocolates, which in turn ultimately enabled them to purchase a house and pay my way through college.
The May Company has since gone out of business, and I guess the stock boys who laughed at my father went out of business with it. Doubtless, many of them who still survive and their children are currently members-in-good-standing of Trump’s mob.
Not all of the refugees I have known made out as well as my father, but many did and some made out even better.
If I was in put in charge of attracting more people for some sparsely populated country -- say Greenland, Iceland or parts of the USA -- I’d look for refugees from persecution and migrants attempting to escape life-threatening poverty and political disorder who know how to save string.
30
Stanton, I agree with your implicitly stated claim that German Jews make good immigrants. You forgot to mention that your dad, besides Latin, had a working knowledge of Greek too so, despite his poor English, he could order a Gyro sandwich.
3
@A. Stanton Same situation in my family, except I saw it manifest in saving aluminium foil and things that really could have been recycled or thrown away... But I can't speak for your father or family, so not sure if they were in camps or just fled the Reich, but did they take any welfare assistance from the US government when they got here? Because mine proudly refused it from what I was told, and they immediately signed up and took English classes in Brooklyn and went to work... I'm not so certain that is the plan for the members of this caravan... Their plight is not that of post war Europe in the 1940's, and I think its a bit disingenuous to draw that analogy to be honest.
5
@A. Stanton
The May corporation was bought by Federated which also owns Macy's
The caravan couldn't have come at a better time for the Republicans. For every American who is appalled at this administration's child separation policy, there are two who want to stop the migrants at all costs.
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@S North
Yes, the whole caravan thing is very suspiciously timed and promoted. I wonder what might be behind that? . . . .
4
@S North
As of four months ago, a Gallup poll concluded that 75% of Americans say immigration is generally good for the nation.
A Quinnipiac poll concluded that 66% of Americans opposed family separation at the border.
1
@Vickie I would agree that most Americans favor legal immigration. The vast majority frown on illegal immigration/rushing the border.
Depopulated rural areas, an influx of willing workers and no one can come up with a solution. Hmm.
18
@Walker. Those areas are failing because the economic model of a100 years ago of unskilled labor no longer applies. The future is not of an empty continent that needs big families working on the farm.
34
@ AI Jumping to conclusions is definitely not the future. I didn’t mention farms or big families. Who is going to pay the taxes to keep the safety net going for the elderly who are left behind in these rural areas? Think Japan and worker to recipient ratio. Many solutions are out there. From my travels, the continent is still virtually empty, still a lot of opportunities.
3
@Walker. First. Unskilled, low wage workers are not going to pay for your retirement or health care. They don't even pay for themselves. Importing poverty never works. It's a Ponzi scheme. Who pays for their retirement when they retire, ever more low wage immigrants? Second. We are 5% of the worlds population using 25% of its resources. This is the very definition of over populated and unsustainable. These people aren't moving to the great unfilled spaces for the same reasons no one else is. There's nothing to do. The Antarctic is unfilled. That doesn't mean it's waiting to be populated. They will go to the already ridiculously over populated parts of the country like virtually all immigrants do. China is a our latitude and size. It also has unfilled spaces. Does that mean you want to live in the u.s equivalent?
3
Democrats continuing to sell out the American taxpayer for votes. Build the wall. This has to stop.
123
@M Building a wall is becoming an imperative to put a dent into this massive invasion. I am running out of patience and compassion.
6
@M
If Republicans really wanted to do something about the flow of illegal immigrants in this country, they wouldn't support dictators and oligarchies and corporate pillaging in these poor countries. There's a reason why people are leaving these countries, and we have more than enough power to do something about it.
Unfortunately, that doesn't fit the racist, hateful narrative the GOP needs to tell in order to get their voter base out to the polls. Nor would that sit well with the GOP's corporate paymasters who make easy, corrupt money in these countries.
1
Separating parents and children, imprisoning families, forcing people to wear ankle bracelets for years. What caring, loving people we have in this administration under Donald Trump. So Christian in their concern for the poor and down trodden. Jesus would do the exact same thing, I'm sure.
21
@Ed Mahala so just let every single person on earth into our country, no questions asked... is that your solution?
47
The solution may be to end US meddling in Latin America. US policies cause economic upheavals and violence that these poor desperate families are trying to escape.
24
“Loving and caring” is for your family and your church. The government’s job is to protect us and maintain order.
6
I would like to know how we are conforming to treaties and established policies on immigration.
I also would like to know how much this cruel and unusual punishment/deterrent (for a misdemeanor) is costing the U.S. taxpayer and who is benefiting.
And finally, I want to know why this GOP House, Senate and White House is incapable of developing a sound immigration policy, rather than allow this inhumane treatment of refugees to continue.
This administration is as sick as the despotic regimes we once looked down upon. America is furthest thing removed from being great at the present time.
12
@Carl Lee. So this mess just started in 2016 like global warming, when trump got elected? Give me a break. Decades of looking the other way while the country was flooded with immigrants legal and illegal and ignoring laws on the books has gotten us here.
31
@Al
True, let's go back to when the United Fruit company was raping Central America and forbidding local farmers to control their own land and working conditions. Followed up by US-military interventions to prop up the right-wing dictators and he "1 % -ers" of those countries. How about Oliver North, Reagan Administration officials, and the transfer of guns and drugs? Let's look into that again, shall we? We created the so-called banana republics from which so many now are desperately fleeing. We are reaping what we sowed.
1
The first issue on the new congress agenda should be to rewrite our asylum laws to reflect the new reality at our southern border. What started out as program to help people persecuted for various reasons has become the population relief valve for Mexico and Central America. Living in a part of the hemisphere that have seen their populations increase 4-5 x in the last 60 years is not a viable reason to import, wholesale 100s of thousands of poor uneducated, unskilled people into this country. As there is currently, an unending supply of people from there (and the rest of the planet for that matter) our efforts should be directed towards family planning, sustainable economic development and social stability in their home countries. The era of just moving all the unhappy people of the world to the western democracies is out of date and has become a real threat to the stability of the target countries. In the mean time the border should be sealed and the families returned, together to their home countries.
119
In 2015, Judge Dolly Gee off the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California ruled that accompanied children apprehended along with their parents at the border must be treated the same as unaccompanied children apprehended at the border, They cannot be held in custody with their parents, but must be released to centers operated by the Department of Health and Human Resources. The “child separation policy” is not a Trump administration policy; it is Judge Gee’s policy.
In July 2018 Judge Dana Sabraw of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of California ruled that migrant children separated from their parents must be reunited with their parents. The Trump administration’s plan to offer migrant parents the option of keeping their children with them in custody or having them released to the Health and Human Resources centers is an attempt to resolve the contradictory federal court orders. The migrant parents would get a choice not available to U.S. parents who are incarcerated. U.S. parents held in custody are separated from their children.
42
Though climate induced migration is already happening, this one will be nothing compared to the caravans that will come within the next ten years.
13
@Slipping Glimpser. Climate change is a small part of the reason this is happening. 1950- central Americas population ~40 million. 2018 ~180 million. You could have a new ice age and it wouldn't make any difference.
34
It's a good thing we don't have for-profit detention centers in this country or somebody might be financially incentivized to lock these families up regardless of whether they think it's lawful or not.
18
@Nick
Is that sarcasm? The same for profit companies running many private prisons are in the immigrant detention center business.
1
@Je Yep, it was sarcasm.
Law breakers are rewarded in this country. As a legal immigrant, I have gone through the legal procedures and it took me two years to get a Green Card. Unfortunately, The "migrants" in the caravan are "demanding" that the US let them in as an entitlement, while breaking the law.
The administration has to stand on it's ground and face the onslaught of that herds of people.
181
@Templer "Law breakers are rewarded in this country."
True, just look at Trump.
5
no my dear, these are refugees seeking shelter in our country because of the violence in their country. There is no legal way for them to come. They can only plead for Asylum once they get here. mr. Trump would like to separate the children from the parents as some sort of horrible punishment for families seeking Asylum. I'm so glad that you were able to so-called do things legally. How nice that you were born into privilege. I vote and I was born in this country and I say let them all in together and give them Asylum. We have plenty of room and jobs for everyone.
4
@margaux If they were asylum seekers fleeing violence in their country, there is no reason that they can't make an application in Mexico, which last I checked was not Honduras.
6
Plain and simple. The Trump administration does not see immigrants as human beings.
Donald Trump and Stephen Miller and the others do not see immigrant children as human beings. What kind of people put living human children in cages and/or even conceive of making adults choose to leave their children in the hands of those enforcing children cages?
Humane Societies and animal shelters do not even use cages anymore for the helpless stray animals at their doorsteps.
How ironic Donald Trump calls New York City, which is home to our Statue of Liberty, the almighty symbol of America’s immigration, his home. How far away that symbolism. America, from sea to shining sea? But not way of America’s southern border under the grip of Donald J. Trump. This is a regime, not our America.
Every day that goes by brings feelings of more and more shame, disgust, embarrassment, depression of what Donald Trump has done to my country - what used to be my country. I don’t recognize it anymore.
31
@MIMA
"Plain and simple. The Trump administration does not see immigrants as human beings."
100 percent, INARGUABLY false
5
The only “onslaught” is Trump’s cruelty towards families trying to escape poverty and dangerous situations, making their lives as miserable as he possibly can.
13
@Andy W. So just do away with the border?
3
Most of us were horrified by "Sophie's Choice". Trump and his enablers thought it was a great idea.
13
@Migrant a false comparison. Many Latinos who have already landed in the USA and have gone through the arduous process of becoming US citizens support these current initiatives.
13
@Migrant That is a repulsive comparison. My husband's family lost all but 1 of their European relatives in the Holocaust. They were forced to leave their homes for trains to concedntration camps. Nobody is forcing anybody to come here.
29
Our Foster care system is already a mess, so now they want to add hundreds more children. Nothing good will come of this effort. These children will languish in prison-like facilities for years or farmed out to be abused & neglected.
12
Investigative reporters need to get down to Honduras and find out who is paying these people in the "caravan". The Con Don is saying it's the democrats and, like everything else, when he blames something on someone else HE is the one behind it. The International Mafia way.
Mos of the the people in the caravan I've seen on television don't look "down and out". They look like they're in some kind of competition. Maybe The Con Don is using his drug lord mafia brethren to find the "immigrants" and offer them money. Wonder if they have been promised great Robber Baron jobs if they can get into OUR United States of America.
Whatever it is it's planned by the democracy-destroyers to give The Con Don something to shout his lies about at this critical time in the midterm elections.
Hope people are smart enough to see through him.
28
@njglea What you are saying sounds a bit paranoid. S
4
@njglea. Open borders lawyers have been coaching potential asylum seekers as to what to say at the border. If anybody is aiding and abetting this invasion it is the left.
5
@njglea
"...when he blames something on someone else HE is the one behind it. The International Mafia way..."
I was thinking almost the same thing but money being poured into the gangs to terrorize these poor people and have them running for their lives..i
We annually give about $500 million in aide to Honduras, guatemala and El Salvador. Working on avenues to improve the use of this money or even stopping the aide could be a more efficient way of stopping the migration of their citizens. Almost $130 million to Guatemala is tagged for drug and narcotics intervention. How's that working out for us?
54
Stop the money to these countries
3
@Bob It's a very bad deal for the Americans. they are keeping the aid and send us drugs.
3
@JG. Drugs and people.
I support the right of pilgrims to enter this country. The caravan currently making its way North should be granted amnesty and the US should provide housing, jobs, education and health care to all those who enter. I believe this is the ethical and moral thing to do and we should do it without hesitation.
But I wonder if it is the practical thing to do. I live in Brooklyn, which would be one of the biggest cities in the nation if it were not but a part of NYC. I am wealthy enough to afford a subscription to the NYTimes, and can sit at my desk writing comments in the mornings.
If 4000 immigrants suddenly moved into my neighborhood- I would probably not even notice. The streets are already crowded and there is no place to park. Another four thousand people in Brooklyn wouldn't tip any scales or make any difference. Let them come here.
But I wonder if anyone reading this can identify one single society in any time or place that was better off for letting immigrants in. I know I have not been able to find even a single example.
12
@Neil Letting in legal immigrants, from all over, according to a nation's agreed upon criteria, is probably beneficial. Fresh ideas, new energy, a respect and awe for a new better country and a new better life. Illegal immigration? I wonder if it hits the broken windows theory. If you allow people to come in illegally and stay for years, do they not lose respect for their sloppy and slackadaisical new country? Do they not feel justified in hiding and staying within the cultural practices they left? Do they not feel like sneaks, cowards, shameful and ashamed? Do they not resent citizens as the "other"?
@Neil
The Native Americans never should have allowed the Europeans in. Nothing but trouble has followed since. Mother Earth weeps.
3
@Neil How about as an act of goodwill, you take a couple families into your own home.
5
The obvious answer is to help to build up regional economies (for those who don't care for humanitarian reasons, note that it creates strong markets for our goods) and to stop enabling massive gun-running down to Mexico and Central America across our southern border
(weak gun laws
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-link-between-americas-lax-g..., and to focus resources on stopping the flow and purchase of drugs flowing north through transnational criminal operations rather than distract by breaking up families, as ICE agents who would rather focus on protecting us from the real criminal threats described here
https://www.newsweek.com/abolish-ice-agents-homeland-security-1001602.
That is a better use of tens of millions of dollars than giving profits to private prison company Republican donors by jailing and harming good families who come here seeking opportunities gained through hard work
(much as our ancestors did before the Republicans effectively closed the border by creating a quota based immigration law to keep out most Jews and Italians and others in 1924
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1921-1936/immigration-act)
8
There are 45 million immigrants living in the US, both legally and illegally.
Until recently, there were many articles showing that only about a quarter were here illegally. But then a new Yale study, cited in the Times, said that rather than 11-12 million, more like 22 million were living here illegally.
That's 50%. In other words, the number of immigrants here is double what our system allowed legally.
And many of the 22 million living here illegally are not recent arrivals. They've lived and worked here for years.
We need to do something--I have no idea what--to halt the idea that anybody who feels like it can come here and stay. Or that anybody who wants to come has a right to be here.
125
@Talbot Lock up or jail anyone that hires an illegal to do anything. That means cutting your lawn, looking after kids, serving you food, fixing your roof...anyone. You start locking up or fining anyone that has an illegal on their staff and the problem will go away soon enough.
8
@thewriterstuff Agree. My son cuts my lawn, I look after my kids, I cook and serve the food we eat..........and I've known the fellows who fix my roof for a couple of decades.
So I'm clear...........like the majority of Americans, I have no servants.
But lock up and fine anyone who has an illegal on their staff..........lock up a few, fine them $10,000 per illegal employee, and you'll get the attention of TV stations, newspapers and other employers.
@Azalea Lover Yes and make them pay for their deportation and repatriation.
"Sophie's Choice" Shame on us. The Lady in the harbor weeps.
9
@Kathleen O'Neill. The "lady in the harbor" has 330 million neighbors now. She's weeping because they use 25% of the worlds resources to support 5% of the people. Are you seriously saying we should be adding to that?
36
What stops the US from continuing the caravan to Canada ?
29
@Longtime Chi. Canada doesn't want or need people who bring no skill or language set. Only the u.s. does this.
4
@Longtime Chi Canada is seeing some of the spill over, but generally Canada enforces their border laws. They even have a reality television show about it.
3
So should we let all 7000 in? What if 70,000 more come? 700,000? Are we allowed to have any limits? We allow 1 million legal immigrants in each and every year, isn't that enough?
175
@Lucy Taylor
Sure, why not. There are plenty of low paying jobs in ag, construction, and other manual labor fields that need filling. Why doesn't America take advantage of the huge numbers of immigrants who want to come here? Give them temporary work visas and a path to apply for legal citizenship if they can prove their worth with hard work. Don't even bother setting a limit on how many can come - just require that they have an employer sponsor so we know they'll be working.
Too bad congress is incapable of addressing immigration or we might have heard of this idea before.
1
@Lucy Taylor "Isn't that enough?"
Not enough for the Democrats.
4
The entire reason for the caravan is the cessation of family separations due to lack of space in federal facilities.
21
You can't just show up at someone else's border and expect to be let in. Turn them away. Hand out applications for visas and encourage them to apply for admission the right way. Learn our language and history. Submit applications in a lawful and orderly fashion.
Whether people get into our country is totally within our sole discretion. No one has a right to come here.
At the same time let's provide some monetary and perhaps military aid to the decrepit places where these folks come from so that their leaders can improve conditions to make these places livable and free of drugs and crime so that their own people will not feel compelled to leave in an atmosphere of desperation.
201
Beware of Russian bots. Beware of other democracy-destroying bots.
This may be one.
1
I’m a liberal democrat and agree - our borders are not meant to be swarmed by persons crossing other countries borders to get here mostly suffering from dysfunctional government. I hate Trump, but like a stopped watch, he is sometimes right.
And >60% of the US citizenry agrees, maybe even 70%.
4
That's good in a perfect world. But we currently are intentionally backlogged in our application process, a cynical Trump ploy to make it harder for anyone to enter.
These are refugees -- we have both room and need for them. There are over 7million job openings in America -- that number has been rising steadily from over 5million during the final Obama years back when Trump lied our economy was somehow suffering.
1
Immigrants should be entitled to a speedy resolution of their "asylum" claims. Two years is far too long. They should have their answer within two days for simple cases ("I'm claiming asylum because my baby daddy beats me up") and two months for more legitimate cases.
Also, what about busing and dropping off new arrivals in places like San Francisco Fisherman's Wharf, New York Grand Central Terminal, etc? These cities have a lot more resources to take care of these immigrants.
18
Are you crazy? These cities have their own problems including housing shortages and major homelessness. They need to fix themselves before taking on more.
10
Busing to cities like San Fran, are you serious? Have you been there lately? Do you know anything about the homeless situation in San Fran? It's out of control. Dumping immigrants in large cities is not the answer.
People are leaving their countries all over the world because their lives are either in danger or the conditions are unstable. World leaders must unite to make life better everywhere so that leaving your country does not become a family's first solution. Otherwise our world and our humanity will not survive.
4
@liberty We don't want more people, In fact we should have less.
7
With their inheritances, jobs, pensions, health plans, investment portfolios and assets, Trump & Co
can’t imagine what it’s like to have nothing, Central-American style.
Poor things.
7
@James Wrong equivalence!
2
We could actually call them what they are: “coercive” family separations or, more decisively, governmental kidnappings.
7
@Amelia - how is it "Coercive or Kidnapping" is the subjects willing present themselves, at great personal effort to the Process.
17
@Amelia Don't want to be abused stay where you came from. We are so caught up with other people's problems, we are neglecting our own backyard. I am spending more time worrying about other people in the world then my own immediate family.
4
@JG
then get your priorities in order.
Why on earth are we not working with El Salvador, Nicaragua and Honduras to make their countries safe and prosperous for their citizens? Surely most of these people would rather stay home if they could have a decent life.
29
@ChairmanMetal plain and simple answer - the backbone of the governments of all these countries is drugs and cartels. There is too much money and personal danger at stake for the governments/police to attempt any effective cleanup.
2
@ChairmanMetal
We do send them money, but as with a significant number of poor countries corruption is a major problem that eats up a lot of the aid.
4
We are and have been for decades. It has done nothing.
3
Can the Times focus on what will happen to the children that these economic migrants will have on US soil? The focus seems to be on the peril of these migrants, rather than the peril they will cause to us when they have anchor babies, and the entire family of 20+ are crammed into one or two apartments without legitimate jobs, using emergency rooms for medical care, not paying taxes or tickets or fines, driving without licenses or insurance, not showing up to court (being judgement proof), overburdening schools with kids (who can't speak any english), running an underground cash economy, and overburdening the already strained safety net that was built and paid for by working Americans like my parents and yours. This is not a boarder state issue, and its why the Republicans are winning on this issues and the Democrats are terrified right now. Trump won PA only by a few tens of thousand votes...keeping in mind. Having been back and forth across the state in the services industry and having met thousands of everyday Pennsylvanians, I can guarantee you those votes turned on immigration.
133
Why not deal with the problem by going to the source … improve conditions in Central America?
23
@John Graubard,
Not our responsibility.
4
@John Graubard We already send C.A. hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign aid. We would have to trod upon their national sovereignty to force them to actually use the money to improve their people's lives.
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Stephen Miller is the evil far right senior advisor in the Trump administration that is the principal architect of these inhumane immigration policies.
His mother's family immigrated to the United States in the early 1900s from Belarus escaping the anti-Jewish pograms in Russian empire. Yet despite his immigrant background, Stephen Miller takes pleasure in seeing immigrant children crying when they are separated from their parents at the border. He is evil incarnate.
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@Ben Boissevain. So, what’s your solution?
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@Ben Boissevain Then maybe those parents should stop coming here. Using your kids to argue in favor of your right to move here with no job skills knowing you can only support yourself with handouts from local residents is immoral. The people in question should be marching to improve their own societies not make things harder for people here.
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Rather than resorting to such draconian measures at the border, why not reallocate some of the funds we spend on futile 17 year wars in the Middle East with virtually no positive outcome, to addressing root cause problems in Central America. Perhaps we could establish a sanctuary city in Mexico, or other innovative, humanitarian approaches that address the fundamental reasons for these mass migrations.
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@Rocky Keith Too logical. Does not support our vast war industry.
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@Rocky Keith The fundamental reason for these mass migrations is monetary. The vast majority are economic migrants.
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There are two avenues that I would like to see explored seriously that will not please the alt-right or the truly far left:
- There are only a few states that are overburdened financially from the influx of immigrants. We need to recognize the fiscal pain of these overburdened states. We also need to recognize that many states need more immigrants to survive or thrive economically. We should work with local and state governments, and the companies, farms and manufacturing entities in each, to identify states, regions, and towns that are underpopulated and urgently need workers. Then we could design a directed plan to settle immigrants, and the financial windfall they can bring to these communities through labor, entrepreneurship, and financial contributions through purchases of goods and services, sales tax, property taxes and income tax. Immigrants with proven family relations in a given area with meaningful employment waiting for them would be exempted from directed settlement. Included in planning would be Canada-style language, culture, education and job training programs to assist with productive settlement adjustment.
- Deport proven violent criminals immediately - by proven, I don't mean with Trumpian facts - I mean videotaped evidence. We wouldn't deport positive contributors for parking tickets or for non-crimes like falsifying a taxpayer id to pay taxes - but a gun-packing robber loses their right to be here immediately.
I've said my piece - now shout me down.
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@common sense advocate I would like to see more people trying to think about the issue in this way. Let's talk about MODERATE solutions.
I see too many people resorting to the extremes. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. But there are better solutions than those currently being discussed by Trump & Company.
On one hand, I understand why it's concerning to contemplate a caravan of thousands of people marching towards our border. My mom, for example, is a compassionate woman. She reads stories about individual migrant families and roots for them to make it across, but the caravan freaks her out. I believe that there are many who feel exactly as she does. And I can't imagine how taxing it is for those working at the front lines of US border and immigration.
On the other hand, we have a shortage of workers in the United States. People migrating here contribute to the economy. They WANT to work. As someone who has worked a number of food service jobs, I see time and again that those from Latin America are often the most reliable staff in the restaurant.
There must be a better solution to address the humanity of all involved. I fundamentally believe that it is in our best interests to help as many people as we can, but we cannot ignore the fears of our own citizens, even if those fears aren't always grounded in reality.
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@Jen - thanks for your note - agreed. My sense is that if we can direct immigrants to regions that need their contributions and support their acclimation/language/employment adjustment, there will be less fear of "other". I also hear your mom's concern - I'm concerned the cost of the caravan will be the loss of midterms and 6 more years of unbridled, unfettered Trump 24-7.
@common sense advocate I'd go with everything except ID theft.
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It’s time for the discourse of human rights and international law to become a more regular framework for the barbarism of Trump’s policies, but also time for a wholesale re-evaluation of US military support in nations like Honduras, where militarizing drug wars has led to huge migrations out of the region. Let’s get a better context, including for the decisions Clinton and Obama made with their own policy decisions in the not so recent past, that contributed to the crisis now. (Eg, the 2009 coup in Honduras that Clinton still defends.)
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This needs to be addressed as a humanitarian crisis with UN support. But, we need to rethink our own sanctuary city policies, voting privileges for undocumented persons, some states supporting driver licenses etc...We have an obligation to secure our borders, some of our policies are certainly a contributing factor to this issue. I would like to hear from prominent democrats, my N.Y. representatives Sen. Schumer, Gillibrand, Cuomo are their recommendations.
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Never are there really good choices in this situation but the decision tree should look something like this: if they show up and don't plead for asylum you simply turn them around; if they do attempt to claim asylum you make it much more difficult to successfully plead such a case; and you move the cases along with the greatest speed possible to avoid detentions that are longer than a few days. Easy to lay out in the abstract but rather more difficult to execute.
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Remember when “conservatives” at least gave us the rhetoric of Christian virtues and family values? Now? Sophie’s choice as an immigration policy.
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@Dagwood
"Sophie's choice"? Are the children being killed by homeland security? I hadn't heard that.
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@Jay. It's worse than that. These Sophie's choice victims are traveling thousands of miles and jumping fences to get here and be abused by the evil u.s.
@Dagwood
I'm not a Christian.
And I support most Democrat policies --
Obamacare, strong business regulation, progressive income taxation (and yes, inheritance taxes).
But not open borders (whatever its thin disguise),
and not the intellectually dishonest linguistic legerdemain that most Democrat pols (with precise few exceptions) use to pretend that they want to control immigration
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Why is this only our (U.S.) responsibility? Why can't some of those seeking asylum be directed to other stable and safe countries in the Americas. We should take our fair share, but not all of them. Why aren't the U.N. or O.A.S or other international organizations involved. The fact that activists have not explored that option makes me think there is a political/cultural agenda that overrides the humanitarian one.
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Our story is one of open arms for the oppressed. Trump is trying to reverse more than a century of that global experience and perception. He’s going to fail
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@Jake. First, they don't want to go to these other countries. Most of them are economic basket cases that can't support their own populations. We've taken 10s of millions of people in already. We have done more than "our fair share". The solution is not to take anymore people in. Not Norwegians, ho doran or anybody else. Our population is contributing far out of proportion to global warming. We should be taking efforts to reduce it, rather than adding to it.
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Thank you Jake for your comment. I was thinking the same thing. There should be collective effort of sympathetic nations that will support the relocation of those that are disenfranchised. It would be the right thing to do, however I do believe there are political and cultural evils at play.
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Other than coming up with juvenile quips, what’s your solution? The families can’t be kept in detention by law, which the Democrats won’t change. Let the tens of thousands of them flood over the border? Or is thinking through an issue too much work?
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@DRS For all we know, this caravan is timed to give the Republicans a boost. Stranger things have happened in politics, and I would not put anything past the ruthless Republicans.
@Socrates I generally really like your comments. But Verona NJ is 90+% white, with a median family income of $126,000, and 1.8% living below the poverty line.
Isn't is just possible that places like Brentwood, LI, which had to accommodate 1500 unaccompanied migrant kids into their schools in a single year, has a valid argument not based on racism?
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