The Saudi King lost his marbles if he thinks that Saudi Arabia's western allies would accept the offing of a US resident in a foreign country even if it did occur in a Saudi embassy. Sanctions were imposed by the U.S. and the U.K. against Russia over the poisoning of two former Russian spies living in the U.K. when the poison was traced to Russia.
Trump is already peddling lies that it was the work of “rogue killers,” showing once again that he is:
—a coward who cannot stand up to murderous dictators
—a grifter who will do anything for money
—a puppet being played and laughed at in the international political stage
2
Mr.Rubio, moral credibility?
Yemen is, the report says, at starvation.
According to globalcitizen 18 million Yemenis could face starvation at the end of the year, UN says.
Human right watch, hrw says more than 400,000 Syrians died because of the conflict since 2011, according to world bank 2018 report.
More than 11 million syrians seeking refugees according to Borgenproject.
According to same source , 400,000 Syrians have little to no access to food source.
Both Syria and Yemen is test case on the ground of morality, if it is possible to find moral compass.
What price has Saudi Arabia paid for having 15 of the 19 9/11 terrorists being Saudi? Nothing.
What price will Saudi Arabia pay for murdering one of their own citizens on their territory (the KSA embassy in Turkey)? Nothing.
Money talks and money talks even louder when you have this President and his son-in-law in the White House.
2
How come press coverage doesn't mention the fact that other abductions have taken place since MBS took over (planes being re-routed to Saudi Arabia with unwilling passengers aboard)?
No morality or ethics left in the current president. Very sad.
1
I can't help but believe that Trump's posturing is for the American press, but meanwhile he is telling the Saudi's to just wait it out and nothing will really happen. He acts tough, but if it comes to a choice between morals and greed, there is no question which will win.
1
...so what, Saudi leadership...take your threats elsewhere. We cannot allow this intimidation. There is no scenario that should allow any "grey" area for this administration to wiggle out of doing what must be done to preserve any semblance of global civility and respect for the rule of law.
1
17 years later an accidental US President stumbles upon the more central 9/11 backdrop.
5
I agree with Jazz Paw who wrote earlier not to hold your breath waiting for trump, the republican congress, or any democrats to actually do anything about this. It is sad to say but Mr. Khashoggi is but a very small pawn piece in the chess game of world nations. There is not a single nation in this sad world of ours that truly cares about this man being assinated. You don’t need anymore evidence of guilt other than him walking inside the consulate and not coming out or anymore evidence that nobody will do anything about this horrible act. Nobody wants to upset the great oil supplier to the world. Trump and his administration will wait until the story dies away, or trump will create something else to talk about and all will be forgotten. Just as the murders of former spies in the UK not long ago. Nothing was really done about it. And really, what are we going to do? Impose some sanctions that nobody will really follow, call them bad people, kick their embassy people out of the country? Nobody will be brought to justice. Nobody will pay for the murder of a man who only wanted to marry a woman he loved. My heart goes out to her, his family, his friends, and every one else who cared about him.
2
Citizens of the civilized world should boycott the attendees of “Davos in the Desert”.
Desert the Saudis and their fecklessness as well.
2
There is more than a little irony in this latest flap with the Saudi's. All but two of the 9/11 plotters were Saudi's.
Money supporting the 9/11 plot was traced to the Saudi's.
The Saudi's fund Wahabist clerics who preach jihad against the West.
The "Royal Family" is a dictatorship and allowing some women to drive hasn't changed that.
And the war in Yemen has targeted civilians for years and has been well documented by human rights groups and foreign press.
But Saudi money and oil has given it both immunity and impunity in its international and domestic politics.
In a sense, we a reaping what we have sown and it is long past time that our government do what the American people have been urging for years, enough is enough.
If the Saudi's insist on acting like a repressive dictatorship we will start treating them as we do other dictatorships and their money should not be able to buy them a pass.
4
Factor in that the Saudis, along with the Russians, are Trumps most loyal and generous customers and his saviors when loans were needed to stave off foreclosure.
Factor out any possibility of an intelligent policy assessment or a commitment to renewable energy sourcing.
2
Same regime responsible for 9/11. The death of one man is a tragedy, the deaths of over 3000 is a statistic?
1
Where wives can be divorced by simply signing some papers at an embassy, where women can not just go to a supermarket by themselves or have a cup of coffee in a restaurant or end up in jail and get whiplashed when caught with a man not their husband people also get killed arbitrarily. For the western world to even consider going to that financial/economic conference in Riyadh to be held at the same hotel where royal family members were just imprisoned and blackmailed by the crown prince demonstrates abhorrent global judgment - not just by Trump. Anything for a nickel.
4
Yet another illustration of why the world needs to kick its addiction to oil and why the US should reject its longtime role of supplying dictators with weapons - so we don’t feel compelled to tolerate the lies of the Saudi dictatorship.
4
Jared Kushner has cultivated his relationship with the Saudis for personal economic gain. As an Orthodox Jew, I see his actions as deeply offensive to our common religious affiliation. We should not, and must not, compromise our moral principles for material gain, as he has so blatantly done.
8
Freedom is not for sale.
2
"But...$110 billion dollars in arms sales!"
This is how dictators and people with no principles driven solely by money think. The fancy word is "transactional", which clearly means--sell anything, including the nation's soul, for money.
It's obvious that Kashoggi was murdered in a planned, executed, detailed conspiracy by the Saudis, and Erdogan is furious because it makes him look weak and at the Saudis' mercy to his own people. This threatens HIS dictatorship because it shows the Saudis don't respect HIM! Wars have started over less than this.
And let's not forget the historical enmity between the Turks and the Arab world including a large swath of what is now Saudi Arabia along the Red Sea, which they once ruled with an iron fist from 1520 to WWI. Turkish is not a Semitic language, being more closely related to Persian than Arabic.
But more importantly, it's one dictator's challenge of a fellow dictator's sovereignty and they find that intolerable.
But Trump? He'll make noise but do nothing and chatter about "$110 billion" when the $1.5 trillion tax cut dwarfs it and should have 12x the effect, but so far has merely kept the economy from crashing.
"Hey! Look over there!"
Iran and Russia must be laughing uproariously while Israel is sweating bullets.
5
While Trump generally doesn't feel empathy, this may be one of those rare occasions when he does, but for Mohammed bin Salman. Trump, Putin, bin Salman, Erdogan, Jinping, Jong-un, they all hate journalists and the free press, and Trump is probably a little envious of the others' ability to throw journalists in jail, out windows and beat them up on the street. Just like Trump instinctively empathizes with men accused of sexual misconduct and freely worries about what a difficult time this is for men, his true feelings probably lie with the Saudis.
2
Nothing will happen. 1)He's a journalist and Trump hates the press 2) He's the wrong color journalist 3) Trump owes SA hundreds of millions 4)Team Trump has big plans to build hotels and golf courses there
4
From 911 on - there is NOTHING good about dealing with Saudi Arabia. Time to get energy independant and stop supporting this regime. They are nothing but rich kids with little to lose right now. They do whatever they wish and no one says "no" to them.
1
As outrageous and straightforward this incident appears to be I wonder whether we’ll witness the same righteous indignation from the Western leaders and real consequences as was the case with the allegations against Putin ordering the killing of journalists.
It’s already clear it won’t come from the US. Hypocrisy at its finest.
1
The Trump White House has created a prevailing and deep skepticism regarding anything like truth seeking or threats of punishments like sanctions. The Saudi's have the perfect guy in Washington in dealing with the devil. Americans should brace themselves for the propaganda onslaught, an empty proclamation that the so-called consequences of murder, lying and criminal cover-up will have to wait on the results of a Republican Congressional investigation, Oval Office newspeak for a charade.
"Keeping jobs," the Republican mantra for selling war materiel to the Saudis, will prevail.
A curious irony is this kerfuffle is its similarity to the Iran nuclear deal that Trump blew up (the US-Iran leg).
He complained about the nuclear deal as terrible because Iran was doing bad stuff well outside of the nuclear deal's purview though they were adhering to the letter of the deal's requirements. Nonetheless, he blew up the deal.
In the case of Khashoggi's murder (ok, alleged murder), Trump appears willing to continue with his money-making deals with the Saudis (for arms, real estate, and hotels) as they are, to him, separate from the use of those arms to wage war, murder people, and motivate obsequiousness. He is willing to un-link one bad behavior from another. He will not blow up any Saudi deals.
Our POTUS is nothing if not an non-self-aware, self-serving, amoral egotist.
2
'If Saudi Arabia “receives any action, it will respond with greater action,” the Saudi Foreign Ministry said. '
. . . .
That sure sounds more like Donald Trump than the Saudis.
Trump makes threats against our pseudo-ally, the Saudis, because of their likely harm to a journalist...here-to-fore, an entity described by Trump as the "enemy of the people."
The world again seems topsy turvy; just the way Trump seems to like it. Personally, I'd prefer the world back on its axis.
Spoken like 2 bullies in a schoolyard. It's reassuring to know that world leaders are such responsible, mature men. Given Trump's statements that journalists are "the enemy of the people", I can't help but question his motives here.
1
Let's remember here- Mr. Khashoggi's body (or it's parts) are long gone. And when there is no smoking gun, there is no crime in Trump's world. And his base cares not one iota what Saudi Arabia does to a journalist. Particularly one who offers critical views of his government. The press is, after all, the enemy of the people. On that, Saudii Arabia, Turkey, and Trump all agree. What if Saudi Arabia threatens to divulge some of Trump's business dealings there? You watch, Trump will find some distraction to get everyone's mind off of Khashoggi and the Saudis. And what if a deal is struck between Trump and Erdogan: drop this and I will release the cleric you seek whom you feel was behind the coup attempt? I wonder about the timing of Turkey's release of the pastor? Why, all of a sudden? There's much more to this than a little old fashioned murder. The Saudis need to take a lesson from Trump: Always get someone else to do your dirty work for you. Don't want any dirt splashing onto those white robes. Here in the U.S. it's called a fixer. And always deny, deny. deny. That much the Saudis have gotten the hang of.
1
If Mr. Trump is wise he will stop the Yemen war. That will give the Saudi's the punishing they deserve without explicitly humiliating them.
1
Reports are that in the first half of 2018 the number of journalists killed worldwide was 47.Some of them were killed in the hazardous areas where they were working but many were assassinated to silence them.An America based journalist has just been murdered in the Saudi Embassy in Turkey and the Trump administration is wringing their hands because Saudi Arabia is such a wealthy customer and they are loathe to impose sanctions because it may stop the flow of money - so much for defending a free press.We are outraged that a respected journalist has been murdered and Trump is waiting for some plausible explanation so he doesn't have to lose one of his outlaw "friends".
1
There is no clash! Trump knows the truth & has accepted it as normal internal business... It's nice to see the empty threats from all parties... Face it: the billions - if not trillions - of Saudi money in all our economies are worth a lot more than the life of a journalist. Just stop this act of outrage and get to the next page...
1
All of this outrage from Trump, who has described the free press as 'the enemy of the people'?
Who all but incites mob rule against reporters at his rallies?
The prodigious liar who spews 'fake news' about any story/op-ed that he doesn't like?
1
I know it is obligatory here to make everything about Trump, but do we believe President Erdogan? Turkey also claims President Obama was behind the military coup in 2016. I don't believe he was, and with hindsight it probably would have been a good idea, it might have been successful with US help. Perhaps Erdogan wants to drive a wedge between the US and our other allies.
This is not, necessarily, a "Trump" problem. It's a "more than free" vs. "not at all" free problem
US administrations since at least the 1930s have supported Saudi Arabia both politically and militarily. And now look at the position they're in. The Saudis are threatening everyone now, even those who aren't threatening them. They have the weapons, they have the money, they have whabbist cells through the middle east and Europe, and likely in the US as well. They have the advantage. Saudis take advantage of the freedoms allowed elsewhere to operate as they wish, while not allowing anything of the sort at home. If the rest of the world had any courage they would stand up to them with all means possible short of a military confrontation and force them to make a positive move. But if the Arab world is any indication, that's not going to happen or either side.
Yesterday, Trump said on CBS: “There’s something really terrible and disgusting about that, if that was the case, so we’re going to have to see.” The way Khashoggi was killed, was indeed “disgusting.” But does he still think the same today? We may soon be seeing a clash between Trump and Congress, not so between him and the Saudis.
He opposed to cutting “lucrative arms sales” worth $110 billion, saying “we would be punishing ourselves,” because the Saudis are “going to take that money and spend it in Russia or China.” Sofar Saudi Arabia has made only $14.5 billion in such purchases.
The Trump Organization has benefited from Saudi business at its hotels in Washington, New York and Chicago. And Trump loves Saudi money. At a 2015 campaign rally in Mobile, Alabama he said: "I get along great with all of them...... They buy apartments from me. They spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much!"
Trump said he needs to defend American jobs in the arms industry. But it may just be a smokescreen to protect his own business interests.
7
If possible, how many US journalists Trump would dispense the same. Clearly, under the reign of Trumpo, our dignity, worth, influence, and importance has gone down the drain as Khashoggi surely has.
7
Ridiculous and paranoid are those who compare Trunp to murderous dictators. Absurd, yes, he is. But pales in scary comparisons to Putin and others
1
A Charade from both sides
2
Some of the Mideast papers (ME Monitor) are reporting that MBS deliberately targeted the murder of a WaPo journalist directly at POTUS DJT in retaliation for the reality show comments he is making at his campaign party rallies: “MBS wouldn’t last two weeks without my help.” That would be consistent with MBS’ mercurial nature (Qatar, Lebanon, Yemen) and with reality, given the tense history since FDR initiated US propping up the Sa’ud family on the USS Quincy in Feb 1945. That would make DJT directly responsible for a US journalist’s murder consistent with his regular calls for action against the “enemy of the people,” a phrase coined in response to the press reporting of the Luftwaffe demolition of the Basque town Gurnica on 26 April 1937. Having 50 cousins with equal claim to the crown, that would seem the requisite expected ruthlessness.
5
why does the USA have to sell weapons. Designed to kill people. Can it not sell other things that will make other countries prosper. Build them roads, bridges, schools, infrastructure. But to sell arms is like selling drugs.
8
What happened to Mr. Khashoggi?
We may never know. But do I believe Mr. Erdogan any more than I believe the Saudis?
What a difficult choice for Mr. Trump. Which repressive regime do I believe today?
Luckily, there's an easy answer. The one with more money!
4
Here is a perfect example of the tail wagging the dog. But this is what we should expect, a "Know your place" response from our oil supplier or rather "dealer." The Saudis know we depend on them far more than they depend on us, hence their response, albeit undiplomatic, to any of our threats. They even had a threat of their own in saying they would cripple our economy. If we had a sane energy policy that made us less reliant on oil from despotic countries we wouldn't need to check our values at the pump. You would have thought the oil embargo of the 1970's would have been a wake up call.
Our NSA which monitors EVERY communication in the world (we listened to Germany's Merkle's private phone conversations, recall) tells me that we have the verbal communication of the Saudi hit team and the Crown Prince. We are also probably in possession of the actual video recording of the torture, murder, and dismemberment of Mr. Khashoggi shared with us by our Turkish intelligence counterparts.. Trump knows it's probably just a matter of time before this is leaked and he does not want to be seen as soft on the Saudis, hence his recent pivot to a more hard line position.
6
They should leave this guy wherever he is and get on with this meeting. The constant showmanship of every person involved is ridiculous.
What clash??? Trump would never put sanctions on Saudi Arabia (SA) for the sake of a journalist’s life. One of the strongest partners the US has now is SA for numerous reasons: counterweight to Iran, massive billion dollar arms deal, stable oil price, agreement w/ Israel for middle east stability and future trump hotel/condo projects after trump leaves office. I’m sure Trump and all the major us ceos have told the saudi prince privately that to save face they will come out critically in public but in private it’s all good. Let’s just wait until this blows over. So the media is making this a bigger deal than it is!
4
Those planes that hit the towers weren’t hijacked by Iranian Shiites, they were hijacked by Saudi Sunni.
I think there’s been entirely too much leeway to a nation that exports as much terror directed at the US and her allies as Saudi Arabia.
Iran is a regional threat. Let Israel go that route if they must with treasure and weapons from us. Our beef is with Islamic extremists, and in that regard, Saudi’s Arabia is no friend.
2
MBS has unleashed a murderous war in Yemen, murdered or imprisoned domestic rivals and dissidents, and kidnapped the Prime Minister of Lebanon. He's a barbarian through and through. The US would be well rid of his "friendship".
10
The murder of anyone inside a consulate is shocking and shows how these people view their place in the world i.e. above all others. However it’s shocking to see how killing tens of thousands of innocent people in Yemen with US weapons isn’t even questioned, but suddenly the ‘civilized’ world is up in arms about a single journalist.
13
Ah, what a symbiotic relationship. The ultimate odd-couple. The Saudis, with a monarchy that needs the US to help maintain its power over reformers or the Islamists who despise the profligacy and ostentatious status of the monarchy, that wants protection from those nasty Iranians and Iraqis. And the US, a country that wants a friendly outpost in the ME and which needs the wealthy oil-filled country and its business opportunities, as well as stopping it from plummeting further down the Wahhabi wormhole.
3
Two people who are obsessed with power and money exchanging threats in public. What a show.
11
Reason number 1,000,000 to do everything possible to support measures that reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. Let's stop even remotely having to pander to autocrats whose economic leverage is that they happen to sit atop oil the continued use of which is destroying the planet and our children's future.
14
It would not happen with this administration though. this administration is about bringing clean coal back. what a world we live in.
7
I remember the gas lines in the 1970's during the Arab oil embargo. The threat that the Saudi Kingdom will respond to American actions with even greater actions says to me it is finally time to buy an electric vehicle.
8
@Accordion
What do they make the electricity with?
The Saudis are bluffing. They know full well, as does Trump, that the 'royals' wouldn't last 5 minutes without U.S. protection.
The Saudis know they are a partner in the Devil's Pact that allows them to violate every norm of international law, even to the extent of bombing the U.S. and terrorising the rest of the world, as long as they satiate U.S. commercial interests.
But the time of 'wagging the dog' is over for Saudi Arabia. Israel should also be warned not to wag the other tail too strongly. Patience has its limits, even with these two regimes.
7
That shot of Trump "discussing weapons sales" with the grinning Salman in the Oval Office is one of the most revolting photos I've ever seen. In my life. And I ain't that young.
19
This s insignificant compared to the atrocties Saudi Arabia has committed in Yemen. Let us also not forget that Muslim extemism Sunni Islam with its heart in Saudi Arabia.
8
This is a terrible, disappointing murder, but why is the murder of a non-US citizen warrant being on the front page of every news outlet in the country? With people dying from lack of health care, profligate guns, and crime taking thousands of American lives nearly daily, why are we fixated on this guy?
4
@Tbone
Because he was a US Citizen.
1
Because it’s alleged that he was lured to a Saudi embassy and murdered. If true, the Saudi government is complicit in the crime. It’s a big story.
1
We should care because:
1) he was a US citizen and
2) he was a journalist for a US newspaper.
Sounds to me that POTUS is more concerned about closing his 100 billion dollars arms deal than getting to the truth.
7
I don't know what's worst. The Saudi assasination/slaugher of an American citizen or DTs response. I hope and pray this will be "wery expensive" for DT and his enablers.
5
Criminal it is.
But what about CIA and other agencies "terminating" our ennemies.The difference is, of cours that we are right and good people, and the rest of the world is evil
3
It's comical to watch senators speak publicly about how hard they want to come down on the Saudis for hacking up the reporter. They are simply jostling to get near the head of the line for Saudi "campaign contribution" handouts.
6
Truth sometimes is simple and obvious. Saudi agents killed this journalist on official orders. Any other explanation is a lie. And everyone knows it. What is also true: Trump, Kushner, Saudi royalty and their sycophants and enablers could care less. That’s the amoral universe they have lived in their entire lives.
9
Both Putin and MBS love to assassinate their enemies in no matter the country.
The moral, economic, and effective response would be to declare a Marshall-like plan to go all green with respect to power and fuel.
That’s the huge leverage America has over such petro-states, but won’t use it. Trump, some negotiator.
9
Jamal Khashoggi’s disappearance is a story that is ‘Much Ado About Nothing.’ Rogue reporters get punished in authoritarian countries- either ruled by a strongman or ruled under the aegis of some rigid religious doctrine. The deal doubles down in intensity when the two are combined which is the case with Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is a rich country that buys a lot of US products. They also do not criticize US in public. The massive trade using their hard currency is a lot more important than anyone who is not a citizen and that too a Washington Post reporter. Legal resident status is not citizenship, mind you. Permanent residents hold their own country’s passport and hence are subject to their laws and not ours while they travel abroad.
An all-knowing reporter should have known that.
Turkey too has become a theocracy. To be fair, these evangelical nuts like Andrew Brunson going abroad trying to save souls for the Lord should know that their enticements and strong arm tactics in forced conversion are not appreciated by other cultures. They are best served by spreading the good word in the US rather than an Asian countries. Missionaries are not welcome in most countries where the majority religion is not Christianity. Even friendly countries like India, Myanmar and Thailand abhor American missionaries. Stay away!
Unless you have a penchant for Turkish prison delights, please watch the epic movie Midnight Express before going to Turkey for a soul saving mission.
4
@Appu Nair What is a "rogue reporter"?
If third world Asian cultures don't appreciate the freedom to dissent, the freedom to change your mind, etc, then perhaps the US should reconsider importation of such cultures.
Sounds as if you're arguing that the thugs in Saudi Arabia were entitled to murder Khashoggi. That's a ridiculous argument.
8
@Lilo
Sorry, that was not my point regarding Jamal Khashoggi. Let me clarify.
Khashoggi is/was a Saudi citizen and the government of KSA deals with him based on their laws. These laws are different from what is practiced in much of the civilized world. As an example, weird and immodest female mobs ransacked Washington, DC earlier this month ostensibly to protect women’s rights for abortion. The media propped up their cause and they got away with impunity. If mob included a Saudi or Iranian citizen with green card, that person got the same rights as the citizens in the US soil for publicly disrespecting the highest levels of our government. If they did the same in Riyadh or Tehran, the law of the land may offer them free food for life or a trip to a public square. You may want to watch “The Death of a Princess.” Very educational.
Non-citizen reporters conditioned by the anarchy of Washington, DC do not get special protection abroad even if they are employees of liberal darling fish wrappers. Reporters (as well as missionaries) better know what the laws of the land are before leaving the safe environs of the US soil.
Well, the US cannot and shall not police all the ills of other countries. We need to focus on our interests, particularly the preservation of our freedom and standard of living in this country. Period.
Being a morality policeman of the world will not help that cause. That is the bigger point I am making.
Who knows? The impetuous, unpredictable, and narcissistic Trump, driven by the status of his personal relationships in matters of national policy, may end up blowing up our relationship with Saudi Arabia and even start cozying up to Iran, to infuriate the Prince and his followers. If the Fake President interprets ensuing Saudi criticism as insulting to him, in fits of perceived aggrievement he would not hesitate to reorder the country's priorities in the Middle East and inject even more chaos into the region.
Trump has no grasp of the seriousness of governance and the challenges of establishing and maintaining civilization with a society that seeks to offer liberty and liberal democracy for it’s citizens.
He’s lived in a world organized and run by others. His contribution has been to engage in his own business and even that relies upon great amounts of money that enables him to avoid the consequences of poor judgments. He thinks so little of his own significance that he lies and misrepresents reality continuously. He is unaware of the seriousness of knowing what is real and having others know that one knows of what one speaks. As a private citizen, as long as he paid for what he wanted, nobody cared what lies and foolishnesses he exhibited. Intelligent people knew that he was a braggart and a pretender, but it did not matter to anyone not in business with him.
He is not making friends with authoritarian leaders as he imagines. He does not understand how savage people seeking power usually must be and how to stand up to them so that they hold back their claws. They see him as a chump who they can use to get what they want.
6
We do have to impose sanctions. It is too horrible for Khashoggi’s family, friends, fiancée, and colleagues to have yet another person killed for MbS with no consequences for the Saudis.
We have to stand up to the torture, murder and dismemberment of a journalist who could not stay silenced while his friends were wrongly imprisoned.
Our president has it backwards—it is by upholding our values that we win, not by sacrificing our values to make a buck. Jamal Khashoggi stood up for his values. So must our elected officials. And our CEOs.
We punish ourselves when we prostitute our value to make arms deals. We punish ourselves when we make ourselves despicable, craven, venal, motivated only by greed for money.
3
What's the Message here?
CNN anchored from Istanbul after the disappearance of a journalist. Why all the focus on one missing man, after MbS had taken a prime minister hostage, killed tens of thousands in the Saudi Vietnam (Yemen), locked up all his rivals in a coup, and so much more? Not to mention Erdogan's own repressive coup.
But Kashoggi's highly probable symbolic dismemberment, though directly affecting only one man, is to use a much misused word, the true Epicentre of a seismic shift in the tectonic plates at the centre of geopolitics, the Middle East. This explains the at first strange decision of CNN and others to put the apparently isolated story at the centre of world news.
As with the MbS coup this time last year, linked to the detention of Hariri and escalation in Yemen the same weekend, the symbolic murder of a lone voice, who was also the voice of all the feuding factions in KSA that MbS thought he had quashed, marks the start of a fundamental reconfiguration of the Middle East and wider geopolitics at the end if the proxy Syrian War, echoing the reconfiguration of 1918 which dismembered the Ottoman Empire and created the old Middle East.
The Kushner-MbS dream of a united Gulf-Israel front against an Iran now linked with Turkey and Russia is over. In another coincidence, the Washington meeting of 12-13 October to form an 'Arab NATO' to confront the Saudi-Israeli-American bogeyman did not take place, and Brunson turned up instead.
Interesting times.
These are empty threats by Riyadh. If the US acts decisive enough to distance itself from the regime, it will undermine Mohammed bin Salman.
1
If the Saudis killed Khashoggi, and if Trump does something to which the Saudis feel they have to respond, and if oil prices go up $10-25 per barrel, who benefits? US oil companies and Vladimir Putin, whose country is crucially dependent on oil revenue. The impact here won't be felt until after midterms, so no problem. As a side benefit, this is another opportunity for Trump to indulge his addiction and inflict further chaos, because his is the face of total need. And nobody else matters.
1
It's obvious that Trump and Rubio are simple warming up for November's election. They are great at making great proclamations when they want to be seen as intelligent and caring leaders. Remember their passion for change after the Parkland young people were gunned down? Do they believe their own lies or is it worse than that and power (and greed for the Trumps and their clan!) and manipulation are their only intent.
1
Don’t hold your breath waiting for anything definitive regarding the House of Saud by this administration.
As long as there are arms, planes and bombs to sell , rump &Co. will back off.
More importantly to this corrupt poseur and sonny-in-law, is their personal interests like the Hotel, golf resorts and the rescue of 666 Fifth Avenue after Qatar turned Kushner down for a “loan”.
We are saddled with a chief executive who has a misplaced admiration and often fealty to despotic individuals and those who are hardly fans of democracy.
This administration is sickeningly blatant in the degree of hypocrisy practiced. Anyone wonder why the con man drew laughs at his speech before the General Assembly?
4
If Saudi Arabia is really responsible for killing Mr Khashoggi and it is proved beyond doubt as his fiancee said in her statement published yesterday in this newspaper,Mr Trump should take some stern action against Saudi Arabia and make alternative arrangement for its requirement of oil.
1
You can’t really fault the Saudis for saying the guy left the building, when clearly he didn’t.
Trump says outright lies all the time too. The Saudis must think it’s normal.
9
The Saudi government and MBS has had issues with Khashoggi for years; they banned him from working in any journalistic role there in 2015 for expressing negative views of Trump when he was running. Trump Inc has deals with the Saudis and Trump has clearly already stated that money trumps morals, so we should not expect action. No different than Trump and Putin/Russia. Putin poisons and kills his opponents, and Trump admires that.
4
MBS has finally been revealed for what he is: an autocratic thug in a corrupt "kingdom". Saudi Arabia has been merely a dictatorship for nearly 100 years. MBS consolidated power and has ruthlessly imprisoned or threatened his detractors since. This time, though, he overplayed his hand, and now finds himself in a dangerous game of "chicken" with not only his detractors, but with world leaders and corporate chieftains, the very people he has been molding his carefully crafted image for. By explicitly threatening to tip the world's economy over through his manipulation of oil supplies, he leaves the West no face-saving measure from which to retreat, and now faces a tit-for-tat exchange that he will ultimately lose, if Turkey releases the physical evidence of Khashoggi's murder. Western leaders and oligarchs will be left with no choice but to enact forceful sanctions or appear weak before this child-prince. The Saudi's once again misapprehend Western logic and their own ability to influence Western politics outside of their dictatorship. By itself, oil reserves and military purchases are insufficient blackmail.
1
Money talks, $110 billions military contract, and perhaps, big personal benefits are too much to make a big deal about one journalist. Perhaps, some rhetorics, a phone call or two, and life as usual. I hope Mr. Khashoggi will show up, but it is hard to believe that he left his fiancée and disappeared. He sacrificed his life for what he stood for, this world will be a sadder place without him.
2
Trump won't do anything. But if he does, the Saudis can (a) stop selling us their oil or else increase their price drastically. Well, we have more than enough of our own; there won't be any repeat of the 1973-74 fiasco. (b) pull their US investments. Whatever; we can live without their dirty money. (c) Not come to Trump's birthday party. That would be the most devastating to POTUS.
1
There is no clash here, only two strongmen using stories about conflict with each other to distract the public from their disenfranchisement.
1
Operating under thr assumption that Trump is compromised by Russia, it seems that this is just an attempt to cool American-Saudi relations. By damaging relations with the Saudis, Trump shrinks American influence in the Middle East, empowers Iran, and therefore increases Russian influence.
What Donald Trump understands is the art of the deal, whether it's real estate or weapons, and moral considerations are irrelevant. He said himself that everyone wanted "that deal," the massive purchase of arms from the U.S.—the Russians, the Chinese, everyone.
This is one of the ways he claims he is improving our economy, by selling weapons to war to a foreign government. How could something so trivial as the gruesome murder and dismemberment of an obscure journalist risk embarrassing the Saudis and wrecking that deal?
For the sake of humanity, the disappearance of Khashoggi needs to be investigated and those responsible held accountable. Otherwise, no one will be safe from brutal and murderous regimes and strongmen. The irony here is that for many years the Saudis have engaged in a murderous war against civilians in Yemen and yet the US and Western governments did nothing. Perhaps, this time the Saudis have gone too far despite their generous buying of Western made weapons and munitions.
2
Mr. Trump will do nothing. That is for certain. His clueless dolt of a Treasury Secretary, Mr. Mnuchin, still plans to attend the Saudi lovefest, while other invited participants drop out right and left. The Kushner entanglement and whatever entanglements financially that Mr. Trump's entities have with Saudi funds are the determinant of anything, i.e. nothing, that Mr. Ttrump does, aside from his knowing false statements now.
In the meantime, the Saudi despotism is frantically offering payments to everyone in an attempt to keep a lid on this. It will not work, despite the certain falsity of Republican members of Congress that they will do something about the murder and dismemberment of the Saudi citizen in Istanbul.
The statements from the Saudi foreign office are beyond laughable. Mr. Trump has no clue, but it is true that the Saudi despots would disappear almost instantaneously without military support from USA and Israel.
1
Yes, they're denying it, and our president has a penchant for believing anyone who "strongly denies" anything. Think Putin. Think Brett Kavanaugh. And let's not forget Roy Moore.
I am not filled with confidence that Donald Trump will take a stand on anything that doesn't affect his private income stream. But hey, he's a businessman.
So much for our moral standing on the world stage.
3
Now we will see if Trump is strong enough to confront MBS.
Saudi Arabia are an oil rich nation. This means that their wealth is not earned by merit. They don't deserve this much world attention.
The irony of this moment is the juxtaposition with the stark warnings of climate change caused directly by the wares of this regime.
Could be the ideal moment to radically shift to clean energy.
4
I believe that Trumps hard line with Saudi Arabia caused by the assassination, is to make the moves he’s advised to make to avoid problems with his Presidency in relation to the upcoming elections as well as down the road in 2020. He doesn’t care about the killing of Jamal Khashoggi, cousin of his billionaire friend gun runner, arms merchant Adnan Khashoggi who was charged by the feds for fraud and his involvement in the Iran Contra arms for hostages deal. He died in the 1980s and his billionaire daughter Nabila Khashoggi is a Trump family friend. The GOP is aware of the impact of Saudi behavior assassination of Jamal and their repressive murderous regime. 911 perpetrator Bin Laden family supporters and the Kushner “brokered” huge arms sale deal is unprecedented and doesn’t pass “the smell test”. All this while 911 first responders and their families still suffer. The GOP and we know Kushner, Trump family and Saudi biz deals will be growing issues in the elections. He might step back from the Saudis to get past the elections ahead and then reconnect. He is protecting himself first and the Trump, GOP, NRA power base. The money for arms from the US is an enormous unprecedented heavily armed fighter jets deal and more. Kushner is not anything if not self interested. They buy from the US and what does he get? Offshore and hidden Saudi investments in his businesses? Where are American principles of truth? They are alive in Americans and many candidates and Democrats!
Saudi Arabia and US relations have been complex over the years. Just in this century relations between the 2 countries were strengthened after 911 by George W. Bush and President Obama bent over backwards literally and figuratively to continue to keep relations strong even though the worst killing of civilians in Yemen took place during the Obama years siding with the Saudi backed combatants of the civil war.
Trump also like his predecessors values the relation with Saudi Arabia and cannot just act upon uncorroborated reports. His wait see approach after a thorough investigation is justified. As we learn more about Khashoggi and his long relation with 911 mastermind and his posing with an automatic firearm makes me wonder whether he was a non violent well meaning person. Nothing justifies his murder if that has occurred but relations cultivated with Saudi Arabia over several decades cannot be all of a sudden be recklessly ruined on grounds of suspicion and hear say.
Saudi ambassador to the USA and the Saudi foreign minister should be summoned to the white house once the US intelligence is able to conclude what exactly happened.
1
With all due respect and condolences to slain Jamal Khashoggi, with what moral authority does the United States tell other countries how they're supposed to run their internal affairs?
In this untarnished paradigm of freedom of excellence, we're electing alleged sex offenders as Supreme Court justices, banning and detaining minorities within our borders, enacting punishing tariffs on longtime allies and dismantling as many environmental programs as possible. Feels like rock bottom but I know it goes deeper.
After this year, I'll never trust the White House to make a moral decision again.
Let a real country take up the torch to "punish" these people. We're done.
1
@Will That's just an excuse to do nothing. You could have made the same argument in the 80s when apartheid or Soviet dissidents were the issues of the day.
No nation has completely clean hands. But we all sjhould be able to stand up and say that murdering journalists is wrong.
1
@Lilo Murdering journalists is wrong, and I agree that we should stand up and say that. And I understand that no nation has clean hands.
My point was that any message on this issue from the US rings hollow; our president, someone who actually referred to journalists as the enemy of the people and condones physical violence against those who disagree with him, has no moral compass with which he can judge others.
He should delegate the messaging on this issue to a competent diplomat or someone with some shred of decency left.
Otherwise, the substance is lost.
The Western Powers once controlled Saudi Arabia and, even after they won their freedom, our companies controlled their oil. It cost the West greatly to try to maintain control. Let's not try to regain control even in this "civil" matter. We've demonstrated thoroughly that we do not understand their culture or religion throughout the world.
Keep your hands off Congress and White House. Let the Islamic world decide what action is necessary. All our sense of morality can do is destroy what peace there is in the Middle East, scant as it is.
1
For months now, Trump has said that the press is the enemy of the people. Apparently Mohammed bin Salman took him at his word. And now Trump suggests that we should do nothing lest we jeopardize the arms sales agreement with Saudi Arabia.
In other words, the murder of a correspondent is okay if it is profitable to the U.S. As many analysts have pointed out, the benefits of those proposed sales have been largely exaggerated by the White House. So far, Trump's response has been immoral. I wonder if his Evangelical supporters
agree with him that murder is okay if he says so.
4
Make no mistake, this will come down to money and the government of Saudi will get away with it. So very sad when money trumps human life and we go along with it. Too many jobs at stake here in USA. We stand for nothing, except profit.
Marco Rubio and the "Moral Credibility" of the American Raj ?
The moral credibility of the United States, Mr. Rubio said, “is undermined and compromised if we somehow decide that because an ally who is important did that, we’re not going to call it out.”
Saudi Arabia is America's designer drug dealer, specializing in trading sweet low-sulfur crude petroleum for fancy high-end weaponry. Only the finest quality products bought and sold, but in very high volumes. And of course there a variety of dependent relationships as well, secondary but profitable, which include the deposit of modest amounts of Saudi cash directly into Trump family businesses.
Trump will grumble publicly for awhile at the Saudis in order to appease his domestic critics, but he will not seriously jeopardize a relationship as lucrative as this. Never. He may well love the Saudis even more than he does Putin and his oligarchs.
Neither the nations who've reacted, nor the reporters of the underlying facts of this article, nor any of the commenters has indicated what doing the right thing would be, on the assumptions purely for discussion's sake that the accusations are ultimately substantiated and Saudi Arabia accepts responsibility. Is that because no one can envision what the right thing would be, except that PT's concern over potential prejudicing of the recently agreed upon arms deal should not be the paramount consideration? Seems as tho that's the immediate question and odd that no one has weighed in.
The $10 billion worth of US arms supply deal with the Saudi Arabia and Jared Kushner's personal/business ties with the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman far outweigh the intent and seriousness of the angry tweets against the Saudi Kingdom involving Jamal Khashoggi's mysterious murder in Turkey being blamed on the Saudis.
2
Not to worry! Prince Jared, owing to his marriage to the president's daughter, is an instant diplomat with expertise focusing on the Middle East. Even an instant expert or Prince Jared's high caliber is prone to let an assassination -- with torture and dismemberment -- slip by now and then. President Trump would have designated Prince Jared for this delicate diplomacy regardless of his being the son-in-law.
23
As long as Trump is president, the Saudis will play him like a fiddle and he will happily go along. It's already started! The Saudis are among the least trustworthy "allies" we have (reference 9/11) and yet we keep buying oil, giving deals on military hardware ("jobs", right?), and so on. This country has lost its moral compass and Trump can't find it with all the help in the world. Conservatives always claimed that Benghazi was some sort of "stand down" failure....this is a "stand up" failure from the starting point.
32
I believe this was happening during the last administration as well.
There are going to be serious consequences, but we aren't going to stop buying their oil or selling them arms.
The only two things that might actually make a difference to the Saudis.
13
Trump, impolitic as he is, has articulated the U.S.' longstanding position on Saudi human rights abuses: while I feel bad, there's too much money to lose.
The sentiment has been echoed by many Republicans in the Senate. Marco Rubio made appearances on the Sunday TV circuit and repeated it.
Of all of the administrations in modern times, this is the least likely to stand on principle. Trump, everyone who works for his administration, the congressional GOP - all are about money. Punishing the Saudis means giving up money. They just won't.
Want principles? Human rights? Democracy? Vote out Republicans. Until they're out, we will keep sinking lower and lower into the abyss of oligarchy and white supremacy.
---
Things Trump did while you weren't looking
https://wp.me/p2KJ3H-2ZW
46
@Rima Regas
Watch Feinstein's DNC Politburo Judiciary Stalinist show trial of Kavanaugh? So you want Neo-Marxists running the House and Senate?
@Alice's Restaurant
Those are mighty big words you're using there... Feinstein? Politburo? You're using the wrong terms on the wrong person...
I applaud Hatice Cengiz, Jamal Khoshoggi's fiancee for showing true grit in this turbulent time. She's just an ordinary citizen who's obviously not prepared to deal with a situation like this and yet as of this moment she's been nothing but valiant and fearless. She even wrote a couple of very moving op-eds in The Times and The Post and looks like she won't quit until some sort of justice is served on behalf of her beloved one. It's mainly her enduring efforts that has caused the Western world to take on a strict stance against Saudi Arabia resulting in a 7% drop in the Saudi stock market on a single day and the withdrawal of many sponsorships from their much awaited business conference in Riyadh. Way to go Hatice!
44
Even Donald Trump can't ignore a brutal murder, especially of a critical journalist, three weeks before an election that could determine his future. Congressional candidates in a tight race could tip the balance sheet to losses with a vague response. Unfortunately we may not know if it's followed up with action until after the election.
Will Republicans order a Brett Kavanaugh investigation or a real one?
21
Imagine if Democrats put as much effort into getting to the bottom of this one as they did on Kavanaugh
Regime change.
11
The Republicans in congress, who remember, actually hate Trump will see this as a wedge to distance themselves from him. As secret statesmen, they see the danger in this unprecedented action. They will guilt Trump into doing something he doesn't want to do.
4
"Our moral authority is undermined. ..."
So right you are, Marco.
14
The Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was bold enough to order this assassination right before his giant national conference to invest in his regime?
He needs to be dethroned by his country. Not only is he a murderer, but also has shamed and devalued his entire country on the world stage.
And the USA and every NATO country should join in to sanction this atrocity and barbaric inhuman act.
57
@Debbie
How soon we forget--the CIA was in the business of planning and assassinating foreign leaders. Difference?
1
So true. Civilized governments usually conduct their assassinations discretely.
1
One guy who did what--attacked Islam, or just a showboat going after the Saudis via the Washington Post, owned by Bezos and hates Trump, v. thousands of US jobs. So sorry he was so naïve if true, but we work with Xi who has done worse.
2
Completely untrue that Xi has done worse. There is a rule of law in China which is not controlled by one person.
To much money involved, the ties between the US and the Saudies are so entangled this will fade away. A little bit of chest beating here, a little bit of huffing an puffing there and the problem will be gone in a few weeks.
The life of a journalist isn't worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Everybody knows that in the back of his/hers head.
8
The best way to calm the tensions caused by the extremely cruel death of Jamal Khashagi is to investigate this gruesome crime by the team of the independent statesmen with impeccable credibility that are respected by both sides, let’s say by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.
Some facts are more than obvious. It was the terrorist act and we know there is nobody more terroristic in the word than the Al Qaeda.
Everybody is aware that Al Qaeda has the training camps and the stronghold in the Afghan wilderness.
Thus to revenge Khashagi death, it would be reasonable to expect that Bush-Cheney team recommends the joint military campaign by the US and Saudi militaries targeting the terrorist safe havens in Afghanistan.
To bring the military capabilities of the Saudi forces up for such an action, the Trump Administration should speed up the sale of $110 billion worth of arms to Riyadh…
There is nothing better than uniting justice, democracy, the rule of law and the profitability!
4
Congress is right to demand accountability for Khashoggi's disappearance but as usual, its morality is selective and convenient. In particular, look at Marco Rubio's statement. Can you imagine him saying that about a similar Israeli government action? Yet, no state carries out more political assassinations abroad than Israel. Of course, there is never a peep about this.
15
Trump is prioritizing the military/defense industry over Democratic values for his public policy. History sometimes repeats itself.
It’s been documented that fascism starts this way.
From Eisenhower 1961:
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military–industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."
28
A soft coup is this only way out of this crisis. Replace Prince Mohammed by another young prince( there thousands of them, they should be able to find one) who will pursuit the reforms launched by Prince Mohammed.
Saudi Arabia can't risk it's relationship with the US and I don't see the other Said risk their fortune and the future of their entire family because of a young ambitious prince?
If King Salman wants to save his country, he has no other choice but to "sacrifice" his son.
11
Lemme guess who should lead that coup....
Saudi Arabia and Turkey share a common legacy. In 2016 Transparency International ranked SA 62/176 nations and Turkey at 75/176. In comparison, the U.S. is ranked 18/176 and Denmark and New Zealand are tied for number one. The larger the number the less transparent and more corrupt.
The Saudi alleged "assassins" flew in and out of Turkey within hours before and after the disappearance of Khashoggi.
Something doesn't jell. That is, until we consider that SA & Turkey share a dubious rank in corruption and lack of transparency within a few points. What we may be seeing is a staged cover of back-channel negotiations with the Turkish authorities. The SA goal would be to play-down SA's involvement allegations, at least until the body or forensic evidence can prove that Khashoggi was murdered in the SA Embassy in Istanbul.
The deal is currently in Turkey's advantage.
The Turks claim that Khashoggi's Apple 3 watch transmitted evidence to confirm the killing to his iPhone held by Khasshoggi's fiance outside the embassy. A writer for The Guardian debunked that theory by exploring the range of Bluetooth technology used by Apple Watch 3 that could not transmit a recording from within the embassy to the outside location the Turkish authorities claim.
Given the brazen landing of two private SA jets at the Istanbul carrying "15" alleged 'assassins', I suggest there may have been a pay-off. We may be seeing a renegotiation of the initial pay-off, after the story went viral.
4
@Bob Aceti
“A writer for The Guardian debunked that theory by exploring the range of Bluetooth technology used by Apple Watch 3 that could not transmit a recording from within the embassy to the outside location the Turkish authorities claim”
The Guardian in wrong. The Apple 3 watch can also use cellular.
9
@steve
The Guardian writer mentioned the cellular option but, realistically, if you were sitting in a room being beaten-up, you may not get permission to make a cell call so that you can record the torture. The limitations of the comment section forces commenters to make decisions about what to include and exclude. I chose to exclude the cell line connection option as a viable alternative, under the circumstances.
@Bob Aceti
Given the situation Khasshoggi may have initiated the cellular connection prior to entering the embassy. It would not be an unreasonable precaution.
1
Apparently the people who comment, or the people the censors publish, hate Trump so much they ignore when he actually does something the Times and its readers want him to do. What is it you all don't understand about the words "severe punishment?"
4
Trump is verbally threatening Saudi Arabia with punishment. Trump, however, is a compulsive liar, so we don’t believe him. His constant mendacity results in no sane person ever trusting his words.
36
And if he didn’t issue a condemnation, you’d be complaining even more.
Good grief! You haven't noticed that Trump says whatever pops into his head that he thinks his audience wants to hear & that he thinks will boost his approval ratings and/or he thinks will increase his power (money).
Seriousness of an American-based journalist being killed by the Saudis in their consulate
is not something he has the capacity to get.
So he follows his "severe punishment" with a statement that Kushner talked to MBS and they "deny it in every way you can imagine".
Sound familiar?
After 16 US intelligence agencies stated that Russia intervened in the US elections with Putin's ok, Trump stood beside him and said "President Putin was very strong & powerful inu his denial today". Then said about Russia as the source of meddling,"I don't see any reason why it would be". His audience of one was happy, but not so much back here in the USA. He returned to the uproar and said that his "I don't see why it would be" Russia was a "double negative" and meant the opposite.
Trump is angling for a way out of holding his pal, the money bag man, MBS, accountable.
If there is no 100% proof & evidence (ie no Apple watch transmission) the Saudis will be given a hand slap, Trump will declare victory (ala North Korea) and the show will go on.
Hillary's going to jail, Mexico is paying for a Wall and you want us to believe this guy?!!!
4
That photo demonstrates that even the Saudi's know to use pictures to explain concepts to Trump.
14
The US must enact swift sanctions against Saudi Arabia. The actions of the Saudis - murdering a critical journalist in a consular office - cross so many moral lines that even Republicans are calling for sanctions (Rubio). Saudi Arabia is a hostile, repressive regime intent on destabilizing the region, engaged in mass murder in Yemen, and now (apparently) dismembering its citizens abroad. Enough. #SanctionSaudi
14
I'm partly surprised that Trump is making such a fuss over a journalist from a fake news media outlet; and I'm partly not surprised because the more attention there is on something else, the less attention there is on Trump.
3
Are Jamal Khashoggi and dead arms dealer, Adnan Khashoggi related?
4
@Jon Yes. The NYTimes has reported that Adnan was Jamal's uncle.
8
Don’t hold your breath waiting for Trump to punish the Saudis. And don’t expect the wimpy Democrats to make an issue of it either. The amount of Saudi $$$ floating around Washington, DC is going to ramp up in coming days.
Expect the Saudis to “investigate” their own behavior and exonerate themselves, and official Washington will breathe a sigh of relief that all is now well. But what happened to Mr Khashoggi? Why it is certainly a mystery.
78
@Jazz Paw
Maybe i'm gullible, but I don't think it's anything but transparent what happened to Mr. Khashoggi.
2
This is quickly becoming a story of two emperors with no clothes --- MBS and Trump --- baring bony knuckles at each other, their weaknesses exposed to everyone watching, especially Iran, China and Russia.
The TV ratings won't be yuge but the collective damage will be.
12
I’m Saudi and I understand that what the Gov. did is very inhuman and immoral. But hey, you have killed thousands of civilians in Iraq? Why didn’t US citizens condemn the country for killing innocents people? You were all angry about Vietnam war but silent on Iraq war?
7
We were not all silent on the war in Iraq.
23
@ProgressiveIf I cannot speak for an entire country but as a US citizen, I have condemned the Iraq war from day 1 along with many of my fellow citizens. My government has done terrible things in the past that I cannot defend, but US armed forces do NOT under any circumstances intentionally assassinate or target civilians. The US takes extreme precautions to prevent civilian deaths even at the risk of harming our own troops. The fact that civilian deaths have occurred under our watch is a fact that weighs heavy on the hearts of every US veteran. That is the moral difference.
6
@Jonesy
Uh....Usama bin Laden ?
Due process ??
Who isn't a "civilian?"
Build those Pipelines! The only thing of value that the Saudis have is oil. The U.S. is now the number one producing oil country in the world. We are about to relegate the Saudis and soon they will once again be the nomads they were before we discovered oil there in the 1930s. The tide has turned!
2
I fear the most likely American response will be for President Trump to engage in a Twitter tirade.
14
What's not to understand about this entire issue when Trump has been excoriating the press as, "the enemy of the people?" Why hasn't anyone called out Trump, his rhetoric and its consequences? There will be more to come.
14
Is this the type of country we want as our ally? If we respond to an atrocious act, they threaten us in return? Never forget that 15 of the 16 "9-11" hijackers were Saudis!
46
@SCI......"Is this the type of country we want as our ally?"....But who was it that said the press was the enemy of the people?
10
Trump has made clear that his foreign policy has nothing to do with America's values or principles, or even national security. It's totally driven by whether he or his corporate overlords can profit from it. Hey, we're not going to pass up that arms deal (and by the way, that $110 billion figure is hypothetical at best-- the actual commitment by Saudi Arabia is much smaller). Everything is for sale, including the American seal of approval, if you grease the wheels of Trump, Inc. As Bernard Shaw said, "Now that we know what you are, we're just haggling over the price."
132
@Michele, It is not just Trump, Our foreign policy was never based on American values so pointing out Trump in this matter may be incorrect. Vietnam, Iraq, Our southern states's reluctance to respect human rights, Saudi bombing on Yemen etc.
6
Honestly? I don’t think it has that much to do with sales of military hardware. It’s entirely about how much they flatter him and grovel.
Even this outburst seems mostly designed to get them to grovel, not actually change anything significant, let alone buy anything (except of course staying at Trump hotels).
@Michele
Budabing!—you nailed it.
The US should immediately halt all arm sales to the Saudis until they completely pull out of Yemen and stop the bombing raids forever. Their response may be to stop selling us oil. Gas prices will rise. Well, they have already risen a lot from when oil was $66 a barrel too long ago. People will then whine about how much now for a tank of gas ifor their SUVs.
But what is more important is for Trump to stand up what America holds most dear, and Canada has done so already - free speech and freedom of the press.
31
MBS channeled his inner DJT and it's not a good look.
8
Trump's talk of 'severe punishment' is just hot air, for the Saudis are going to deny involvement, and Trump will take it at face value, just as he did with Putin's denials of political interference and of targeted killings.
27
While the presumption of innocence should always be paramount, the case against the Saudi regime is growing by the minute. Khashoggi was seen entering the Saudi Consulate in Turkey but no one saw him leave. This surely is not a case for Sherlock Holmes! It is yet another frightening example of a world where respect for human dignity and peoples' rights are on the wane. Rogue governments are acting with increased impunity to do whatever they like, and unfortunately, thanks to the bumbling efforts of the incumbent in the White House, they know they can get away with it.
102
@David Ahern...."Rogue governments are acting with increased impunity"....Are you referring to the Trump Administration?
8
This is an absolute monarchy.
It considers whatever it does to be outside of any authority.
The reporter was naive in going to the consulate there while thinking that he would be safe.
This is what absolute governments do.
There are no legal controls over such governments.
The US has no power to do anything at all, other than to impose sanctions on money transactions performed by the country and by its citizens in retaliation for crimes, should strong evidence of crimes become known.
In this case, without the "smoking gun" or the corpus delecti, there is no evidence at all, and the US nor any other country has any leverage over Saudi Arabia.
US gets 10% of its oil from Saudi Arabia currently.
The $110 billion in arms sales now underway since it began during the Obama Administration is small change, in terms of actual income to the US itself through taxes paid by manufacturers, especially since Trump cut corporate taxes and manufacturers have alternative safe havens for reducing taxable profits. There are plenty of legal dodges available to sell goods and characterize the transactions as foreign and not domestic.
Take a careful look at how US airlines buy their aircraft.
The seller flies them offshore and the buyer then closes the deal outside of the country. Neat dodge.
See if research can be done to find out how much in taxes the US has made and expects to make from the promised $110 billion in arms sales. The large media may make that calculation.
8
We should totally abandon Saudi and ally with Iran. But as compromise cease arms sales and leave Yemen. We are participating in war crimes. That's the elephant in the room. We share responsibility with Saudi for the Yemen atrocity.
Then there's 9/11.
24
Say what you will about him, but Trump is our elected president. On the other hand, the Saudi crown prince attained his position by intrigue. He is just one of many princes, and these days he's not too popular among the other princes or among the wealthy of that country. Saudi Arabia can always find another prince to rule, but they cannot always find another ally as powerful as the U.S. Some people in that country may decide that in order for the alliance with the US to be preserved, Mohammed bin Salman may have to go.
Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown...
63
A worst case scenario would be a U.S. embargo of arms sales to Saudi Arabia with China moving in to fill the gap.
2
China's equipment is incompatible with ours. We withhold spare parts so flying weapons of war cannot be repaired. China or Russia can be of no practical use re Saudi weapons.
12
My condolences to this journalist's loved ones and co-workers. My sincere admiration and respect to all independent investigative journalists!
Is losing money from arms sales "punishing ourselves" or just the natural consequence of a moral stand?
Doing the right thing is usually expensive in one way or another - Americans in general, and the current president in particular, usually balk when it comes to the self-sacrifice required to maintain actual moral high ground.
I wouldn't count on seeing much punishment.
168
@Lostgirl There is no actual arms sale, only an agreement of intent. So Trump is trumpeting money that the U.S. has not yet received, may never receive, and won't amount to $110B anyway.
It's high time we punish the Saudis as international sponsors of terrorism, which we may rightfully have done after 9/11 had it not been their oil. If ever a case need be made for a total U.S. commitment to renewable energy, it's the need to separate from any dependence on the Middle East -- a cesspool of dictators, unreliable alliances and human rights abuses.
1
There is great doubt that the U.S. will do anything.
Trump is bandying about claiming there's "tremendous money" at stake (the truth: only $6 billion in military arms sales is at risk, a paltry amount for the U.S. economy).
And Rubio said today "If this is proven to be true," then the U.S. will respond.
The key word is "proven". In another interview today he clarified by saying "If this is proven 100%..." Well, we all know espionage and clandestine acts by terrorists or corrupt people can never be proven 100%.
So if the U.S. government or republicans are already requiring 100% proof that the House of Saud was responsible -- well this will be whitewashed by a White House intent on getting money (graft). Trump has personally been benefiting by the huge hotel fees his hotels have been getting in Washington DC, NYC, and Chicago just from Saudi officials, the King, and Crown Prince's recent visits.
Trump is compromised.
We will not see justice.
We need to voice the requirement that the Saudi government must be punished even with less than 100% proof.
The burden of proof should be the same proof required in a U.S. criminal murder/manslaughter trial - these do not require 100% proof.
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Mohammed bin Salman understands how capitalism in the US works. You just purchase those with power. Capitalism does not care about humanitarianism, just how to get the most money, power and influence.
This has worked well for the Saudis for decades. Of the 19 9/11 terrorists 15 were Saudis, yet we became even closer friends. They continue to be the worlds largest funder of jihadist terrorists, yet they are our friend. They cause the worlds worst humanitarian disaster in Yemen, by targeting civilians. Committing genocide and war crimes, yet they are still our friend. Chopping up a journalist , we will see if they are still our friends, but the track record speaks for itself.
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@steve Don't forget what they are currently doing in Yemen, with the assistance of the US military! Ten to twelve millions of civilians are starving from the action of KSA and nobody seems to care...SAD and Unamerican. Trump is pure evil ; he gaves MBS a free ride on those poor yemenites.
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That says it all!
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The perpetraters of this crime may believe they've goten away. But, when the noose begins to tighten arouns MBS, he will likely cover his tracks by eliminating all of them.
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What I need from The New York Times, if I'm to continue to be the constant reader I've been these past 50 years, is a front page above the fold, in bold 16 point font, statement, issued on behalf of the American people, demanding that our President, and our Congress, issue a clear concise unequivocal message to Saudi Arabia that unless they can prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that Mr. Kashhoggi is alive and well, the United States will do what it hasn't had the backbone to do in decades, which is issue a 24 ultimatum to produce Mr. Kashhoggi, alive and well.
Failing that, then our relationship with these thugs needs to end; one thought comes to mind, since we are so hell bent on regime change anywhere and everywhere on the planet, let's saddle up and show these desert cowboys what real American cowboys are capable of when they come calling.
It would be a real thrill to see American combat troops pulling several of the Saudi family of despots out of their hidey-holes.
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If only! What a delightful though. Then Google Bush holding hands with Prince Bandar.
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@Mel Farrell Gitmo. When are the trials going to start?
@Mel F
Unfortunately, habeas corpus petitions are a Western concept, totally alien to that medieval sheikdom.
But they do not really have a vital role. They supply crude oil , and that is it. Many countries provide oil and most international oil that reaches US shores comes from Canada. The Saudis reap what they sow. I hope the world cuts them off. We would have better luck dealing with Iran than with the saudis
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No US President would cancel a multi billion arms contract to punish a client state for executing an individual. That’s just not how the world turns. There’s no morality in the arms trade. There’s just profit and death. Trump, with his equivocations, discomfort and fake belligerence, is in this instance, reacting exactly how Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan and every other President would react. Don’t make him the outlier. He’s not.
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@Xoxarle
Perhaps true, only Trump and his idiot son-in-law were careless enough to signal to MBS that he could do this without consequences.
Other US presidents were no angels, but they would never have been stupid enough to lead the Saudis to believe that this kind of behavior would be acceptable. There were some limits that would need to be respected.
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The Saudi Government will respond with “greater action” against the US? I trust the Trump administration isn’t losing any sleep over that one. The House of Saud is a house of cards that depends existentially upon US backing.
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While the US government and the Saudi's have a long history, I often question who really is the middle east's most corrupt regime, Iran or Saudi Arabia. Both fund terrorist groups. 17 of the 20 9/11 terrorists were Saudi's. Saudi Arabia is the country bombing Yemen into oblivion with US made bombs. But since Trump has said that human rights are not a tenant of US policy anymore, he will continue to support the Saudi's no matter if there is actual video or other evidence supporting the killing.
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@Patrick We all know that the most corrupt gangster are the Saudi's!
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The Saudis have one card to play - oil. An oil embargo would be difficult to endure and disruptive to the US.
Having said that, the Saudis have one problem: Iran. The Saudis need US military weapons as much as we need their oil.
It is only a question of who blinks first. As for Mr Kashoggi, this too shall pass. When Americans sit in their cars waiting for an open gas pump (recall the last Saudi/Opec led oil embargo, their indignation will take a backseat (sorry) to their impatience to pump gas and get to work or back home.
That is the way of the world.
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@David Clark
This might be true if we still bought a large shared of oil from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states. Today much of our imported oil come from elsewhere; Canada, Latin America, Africa make up a much larger share. Fuel efficiency in newer cars is at an all time high. I'm not so sure the gas lines would be as long as you think. Either way I'm willing to absorb some inconvenience for the greater good.
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We are the greatest oil producer. Increase supply and drive the price back down to $40
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Who should I most be offended by? Trump for being the belligerent, treacherous fool that he is? Kushner for being the most transparent worm in my lifetime? Saudi Arabia and everything it is? Or the failing media for never revealing how SA was behind 9/11 and everything that means especially who knew it and covered it up?
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The broadcast media absolutely reported on the nationalities of the 9/11 hijackers just days after the attack. I read it also in the Times and later in the 9/11 report to Congress. Many Americans chose to believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. Saudi Arabian citizens paid for the terrorists flying lessons. Will we be stupid enough to let them get away with this journalist' assassination? Let's hope that Congress forces Trump to retaliate for this crime.
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@eternal skeptic The "Media" aka, Vanity Fair also reported on Saudi nationals being effectively air-lifted out of the US shortly after 9/11 when the rest of our airspace was on lockdown. The 26 redacted pages of the 9/11 commission report revealed "material" support for the terrorists in San Diego by Bandar Bin Sultan. It was finally released on a Friday, July 2016 and most media, including The Times, effectively dismissed it. Nearly 3,000 innocents lost their lives on that day. Who know's how many hundreds of thousands more in the collective engagements over the past 18 years. And to this day, Saudi is still untouched. Sorry if I don't expect any worthwhile resolution to occur now. And if it does, anything short of what should have happened after 9/11 won't be good enough.
Punish the Saudis and do a good deed at the same time. End US support for Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen. Cancel the arms sales. Do it now.
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@Frank Brodhead That is the way to go but, with Trump and the GOP, it will never happen
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@Frank Brodhead He probably needs those arms sales to cover the losses after his massive tax cuts.
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@yves rochette - Although Trump won't "do it," the Democrats and the media could do something useful by raising the issue of the Yemen war in connection with this murder. Almost none of the comments in this thread mention the word "Yemen," the main leverage the USA has on Saudi Arabia at the moment (and also a world class war crime). - Thanks for your comment.
Once again, the sleazeball Trump places bribery and petrodollars ahead of US values. This will not end well for the trump cabal or Saudi Arabia for putting any faith in this con man. The Saudi record with the US is not exactly sterling, and when administrations change, as surely they will, it will be a dark day of reckoning for the shieks of araby.
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The US should defend its ally Saudi Arabia with all the weapons its got. Quietly let the European PC crowd know that one murder should upend US strategic goals. Point them in the direction of Iran, the global font of evil, and ask them to do more to stop Iran.
US wet work CIA teams should educate the Saudis how not to do wet work. Don't use chain saws or novichok. Above all check for Apple watch.
Don't do fly in tourists with chain saw. Even the Israelis got detected. There are easier ways with near perfect plausible deniability. It is the least the US can do for a friend who helped defeat the USSR in Afghanistan and helped destroy Syria.
From what I have seen of our president, he seems to be all talk no action. Trump has threaten may other countries, and has yet to take any actions. He will never go through with any of his threats and the more he does it the less meaning his words will hold.
The Saudis are innocent until they are proven guilty. There has yet to be any evidence found, although there should be an investigation. However even with that, I don't believe that we will find any evidence.
As for the "severe punishment", I doubt there will be any, especially when you take into account the amount of business ties the U.S has with Saudi Arabia. Even Trump stated that he doesn't want to stop selling them weapons because we would be "punishing ourselves".
Trump is too afraid to admit that he doesn't care for the life of a foreign born reporter when Saudi Arabia plays such a significant role they play in our economy. It seems like he was forced to make a statement, because staying quite would get him in more trouble.
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@Hemanta Dahal
Trump was, is and forever will be a COWARD.
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@Hemanta Dahal Trump just cares about himself PERIOD
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This is what happens when the US has completely incompetent people running things.
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Here’s a simple question. Did anybody think that something like this wouldn’t happen with a knucklehead for a President?
This is a guy that has criticized every player in democratic world politics over the last 10 years. “ONLY TRUMP KNOWS THE WAY!” Can anybody remember the way he criticized Obama for “catering to Iran?”
I sincerely doubt that Donald Trump could pass an 11th grade US government class. He is clueless about world politics, and US government. He knows nothing about separation of powers. He knows nothing about world history, and what side we are on.
Roll the video of him with Putin. He looked like a guy filling in giving a toast at a wedding because all the groomsmen had food poisoning.
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Exactly. The billions of people in the rest of the world can see this so clearly, as we get different news sources and are not blinded by political affiliation to either of your main parties. Those billions of people include very clever and ruthless leaders and influential people. They, like Trump, are also manipulative but he lacks the other 2 qualities. They know it, we know it and he doesn't have a clue, blinded by the delusion he is smart.
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The Saudis will just have to build a few hotels and golf courses with Trump's name in big, tacky, gold lettering, and he will say their government is run by wonderful people and he loves them, forgives them and by the way this man was not a citizen of the US anyway. This is the way our President makes deals.
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Here we have a Saudi prince proclaiming his innocence and getting very angry and making threats against those who bring "false accusations." Where have we seen that before? Will there be "due process" for poor Prince Mohammed, no doubt a man of "unimpeachable" character? What about his lovely wife and children? Will these false accusations "ruin this man's life"?
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When the president declares the press is “the enemy of the American people” is it any surprise that dictators and unelected princes take it upon themselves to eliminate members of the press?
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It looks as if the Saudis have Trump wrapped around their fingers. Trump is unaware, and not at all conscious to the fact that the billions worth of weapons he's selling to the Saudis, may be used against us. I hope he gets wise soon to understand this.
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There is an interesting question about US foreign policy towards Saudi Arabia in recent decades. It has to do with the putative ideological or moral motivations associated with US support of certain regimes: that is, with the choice of allies. The context references both "Islamism" and oppression/tyranny. We are supposed to want the world to embrace "democracy" and refuse "extremisms."
So why has Saudi Arabia consistently been a US ally? Their oppressive, premodern government oppresses and kills women, gays, and dissidents and cultivates extremism. The most prominent counterexample is Iran, not a model of good government nor kind to all dissidents, but moderate and modern by comparison. Yet it was in an "axis of evil." Our government must need to carve up the world between the righteous and the damned. It is tempting to say that it should, but moderately.
Could it be that moral/ideological reasons for the choices of allied and enemy nations are marketing points, while the real reasons are more material geopolitical ones of things like resource control? Pity. One would like to believe that the world's people mostly want not just power and wealth in the hands of their rulers, but, like us, justice and a good life.
Demonizing the Saudi kingdom might not be the answer, but criticizing your friends and allies is an easily forgotten virtue that might have been more practiced, including when belligerent talk was hurled at less worthily chosen regional foes.
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I am genuinely hoping that the president isn't stupid enough to be persuaded to support sanctions against the Saudis for this, but I am not holding my breath.
I also have to wonder if this paper, and other like-minded news organizations would be arguing for sanctions against Saudi Arabia if Obama were still in office, or if Hillary had won the election. I have no love for Hillary, but I can't imagine that she would jeopardize the US-Saudi relationship over Kashoggi's presumed murder.
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@Middleman MD
Presumed murder? you are crazy. The American president is the leader of not just America - he is also the leader of the free world. (Unless he abdicates this role).
The American president has a major responsibility for maintaining world order and peace - and to ensure that a modicum of human rights and certain International norms are respected and observed.
Anyone anywhere in the world should be able to walk in to an embassy - and also be able to walk out. Jamal Khashoggi did not walk out. All decent people around the world should feel a sense of personal and collective violation at what happened to Jamal. Two planes brought in 15 men with a bone saw and cut up a human being like pieces of chicken - and you an MD are unable to feel and express a sense of outrage?
I don't know whether president Trump should cancel a contract for arm sales or close embassies. I don't know the answer - but the world community of nations must take action to stop an OUTLAW NATION in its tracks - no matter how many billions of oil wealth they possess.
C'mon MD
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Mike-
Unfortunately Trump has already abdicated his role as leader of the free world by his tolerance and self proclaimed admiration for authoritarian and dictatorial governments. Money is his lodestar and human rights and dignity are his leviathan.
Boycott oil! Buy an electric car. Saudi Madrassas gave us 9/11. Their genie needs to be put back in its box.
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apologies to the disagreeable man
My name is Jared Kushner, taxes I will never pay
I take off for depreciation, that’s the fruitful way
A very greedy slumlord, the tenants I all squeeze,
Forget about repairing, I do never aim to please
I’m dealing with the Saudis in a very hush hush way
What they do to their victims is a very private play,
I hope not to pay taxes like my cheap father-in-law
He isn’t very subtle when it comes to cash he’s raw,
And I can’t think why.
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This will get whitewashed. What happened to Mr. Khashoggi will end up in "undetermined" file. They will say,"We just don't know what happened. He just disappeared."
Trump's words mean nothing. One day he threatens North Korea with annihilation and the next he's having a bromance with Kim. Trump just says what he thinks he has to say on any given day. He will backslide on these threats. The life of a foreign born reporter means nothing to him, especially with all of his business ties to Saudi Arabia.
Why did it take so long for Trump to issue threats? Because they are hollow political statements. He doesn't care one way or the other. And no, Trump supporters, this isn't some kind of strategy. The bad politics of him not making a strong statement forced him to make one. Then, nothing will happen.
And who cares what Rubio says. Mitch McConnell runs the Senate, not Rubio. McConnell only cares about tax cuts for the rich and putting more ultra-conservative judges on the federal bench. This disappearance is just a sideshow to him.
I can hear it now. Without corroborating evidence, the Saudis are innocent until proven guilty. We just haven't found the body parts yet and probably never will. Maybe the accused can testify in front of the Senate and we can have a limited three day investigation.
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@Bruce Rozenblit
Great letter, Bruce, You encapsulated everything wrong in our political world.
moral credibility? seems like that ship has sailed for DJT and his cronies long ago. This is just the next outrageous thing, this weeks unbelievable event, each one more outrageous next. I feel like we are circling the drain and DJT has thrown out the stopper.
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Trump has asserted bullying as our national and foreign policy. Apparently no one could make it clear to him that bullying goes both ways. Sure, keep arming the Saudis and see.
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No one, not even Trump, has guts and courage to punish, or even displease Saudi Arabia. We, the average Americans, don't know what they have got on us, but we are the puppets of the Saudis. Remember Bush helping all the Saudi royalties to go home after 9-11?
When the hell freezes over!
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This is what happens when you put an ignorant, arrogant kid [Kushner] in charge of Middle East policy.
As spineless and limited as Tennessee's Corker is, he was right about the fact that the White House is "an adult day care center."
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@george eliot
Don't forget deeply in financial debt.
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@george eliot And yet he voted with them every time.
“Our moral credibility,” Mr. Rubio said, “is undermined and compromised if we somehow decide that because an ally who is important did that, we’re not going to call it out.”
Just like how you call out the outrageous behavior of the Trump maladministration, Senator? Don’t lecture us on moral credibility when you are devoid of any.
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Who is Sen Rubio lecturing? You know, a first step towards civil discourse might be simply letting someone agree with you.
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@Andrew...“Our moral credibility,” Mr. Rubio said, “is undermined and compromised"....Sort of like how the Republican Congress has called out Trump?
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Is $115 billion the upper or lower or mean limit on Mr Trump’s estimate of the value of Mr Khashoggi ‘s life. If it’s the former, how low would Trump be willing to go?
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@Ken Gordon Interestingly enough, Saudi Arabia and the US only signed letters of intent with regards to arms sales. So far, only $14.5B is what the Saudi's have committed to contractually. Saudi Arabia is also buying arms from Russia. But to your point, Trump will not do anything but say some harsh words about this. The Saudi's are propping up his NY and Chicago hotels as business has not been so good for the Trump hotel chain since he became president.
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@Ken Gordon They will no doubt offer more to keep him in line.
Oh please. A Post reporter? Why would trump risk his big arms sale for a postie? Oh please—- in trumplandia this isnt an issue worth “solving”. But it does distract.
Nothing this guy says is true. Bankrupt a casino and tell bald faced lies to the so-called base.
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It is wonderful that President Trump has stood up so forcefully to the outlaw regime. The Saudis must pay a big price for this crime.
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Uhhhhh. Trump hasn’t done anything yet.
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@KJ......Trump will be very forceful - sort of like how he ended the nuclear threat from North Korea.
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According to Richard Engel, Jamal Khashoggi recorded his own death on his Apple watch. If that's true, then there should be no question about what happened to him, and no wiggle room for Trump to keep on cozying up to the Saudis and their oil and their weapons purchases.
I know this is hard for him, but Trump needs to do what is right not only for journalists risking their lives around the world, but for all of us who care about human rights. To just go on with business as usual -- and this usual, pretending Saudi Arabia is our friend and ally -- is not acceptable.
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@avrds Remember Iran Contra and the secret sales of arms for hostages? Trump can cancel sales publicly but continue behind closed doors, no doubt securing more money for his hotels in the bargain.
Threats and more threats yet what we have come to expect from Trump is a disregard of moral values over his number one priority - money. On 60 minutes (I couldn't stomach to watch the entire segment) he complained about the viciousness in Washington and how moral turpitude pervades the atmosphere yet he does nothing to set a good example and instead jumps on the bandwagon and joins in with the rest of them. He has no backbone, no moral compass.
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The Saudi spokesperson sounds more and more like he's from North Korea. Seriously, they've lost their minds. Trump can get away with lying through his teeth on a daily basis, but Saudi Arabia can't on this Khashoggi issue.
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Seriously, the USA sells the Saudis the weaponry they use to commit genocide in Yemen, and kills thousands of innocent civilians via drone attack, but our leaders get bent out of shape by the execution of a single dissident commentator? How credulous does the NYT think it’s readers are?
17