Ok, we need a new, non-gender pronoun. “They” doesn’t work, categorically. I suggest “zee” for subjective. And “zer” - pronounced to rhyme with err - for objective. No gender can possibly be inferred from this. It doesn’t sound like “he” or “she”. It sounds a bit more like her than him, but there’s enough difference. It uses z, which comes after x and y, the gender chromosomes.
Zee said there was no point in listening to zer.
I want you to meet zer. Zee’s really nice.
Zee is going out with zer tonight.
I think it works.
Is this a put on? Some sort of farce? If not, it should be. It would be the #1 box office winner hands down. Thanks NYT for showing us how absurd this whole thing is. Comic relief at its finest.
3
Wait - the rest of the world has to call this person "they," but the person refers to itself as "I?" Shouldn't Rain Dove use "we" if they are not a him or her? Why is this even an issue that anyone is taking seriously?? Sometimes it is okay for the larger culture to make a decision about behavior, and decide NOT to do something so silly as call one person by a plural pronoun.
11
@RE, because “I” is non-gendered. Who are you to judge whether this is “silly” or not?
2
@Passion for Peaches
The whole thing is absurd. It's one giant farce.
1
@RE
"they" is both singular and plural, so its "I" or "we" depending on context. In the context Rain Dove uses, its clearly "I."
Its sad some people are mean just to be mean.
Everyone upset about the singular “they” ought to take a deep breath. It’s really not that hard to follow. The use of they as a singular pronoun is at least as old as the English language.
It’s not a news reporter’s job to pick a name or pronoun for someone- it’s their job to report the news. If a source uses a certain name or pronoun, that’s part of the story. If a reporter is covering two guys with the same name, or a quotation with an unprintable word, or something they personally disagree with, they don’t get to change the facts to make the sentences easier to write. The job is to write the story clearly in a way that conveys the truth. Personally I found this article very easy to follow.
1
@sam Really? "they" has been used as singular? When? I studied Chaucer and never saw it used this way. I would like an example.
So glad you asked! Chaucer himself used the singular “they.”
Here’s a couple of sources:
The University of Edinburgh: http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/sing_they_sli.pdf
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Older_usage
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they
6
Ah. If only Elmore Leonard was around to write the film script.
‘’The situation is further complicated because Rain Dove is in a romantic relationship with Rose McGowan, who became close friends with Ms. Argento after both said publicly that Mr. Weinstein had sexually assaulted them. Ms. McGowan was by Ms. Argento’s side as she mourned Mr. Bourdain’s death, along with Rain Dove; that is when the model and Ms. Argento first met.’’
Complicated. It’s complicated alright. What a cast of characters. Are these people living a William Faulkner novel. Maybe not one he’d ever have finished but right up there with his best. Jealousy and back-biting. Betrayal and suicide and the whole thing bound to end up with somebody shooting somebody else. All over hurt feelings, honor and a big pile of cash. I hope Cormac McCarthy or Joyce Carol Oates is taking notes.
1
‘’The situation is further complicated because Rain Dove is in a romantic relationship with Rose McGowan, who became close friends with Ms. Argento after both said publicly that Mr. Weinstein had sexually assaulted them. Ms. McGowan was by Ms. Argento’s side as she mourned Mr. Bourdain’s death, along with Rain Dove; that is when the model and Ms. Argento first met.’’
Complicated. It’s complicated alright. What a cast of characters. Are these people living a William Faulkner novel? Maybe not one he’d ever have finished but right up there with his best. Jealousy and back-biting. Betrayal and suicide. And the whole thing bound to end up with someone shooting someone else, over hurt feelings, honor and a large sum of money. I do hope Cormac McCarthy or Joyce Carol Oates is taking notes.
One wonders if Terry Southern could’ve dreamed up a more hilarious satire. Bennett was 17 and the age of consent in Cal ifornia is 18? Please.
I don't doubt that Ms. Argento has mistepped here, but I fear (as has proven the case in Italy) that the charges against her will be used in a broad-brush way to discredit the #MeToo movement.
We've seen this same think with the climate change debate: when NASA had an error in their data-gathering (which they admitted and fixed) that was then used a 'proof' that climate change is a government-fueled hoax.
In this particular case, I wonder if the headline should read: "Rain Dove Says Asia Argento Texts Will Make Him Lots of Money and Generate Lots of Facebook Hits." Certainly more accurate I think.
What I haven't heard discussed more with the breaking of this story, is the sad fate of so many child actors in Hollywood. There is so much in this case that is extremely disturbing, and you don't have to be on either side to realize that Bennett is a victim of the Hollywood madness. The same path that so many poor child actors have followed. If you go through Argento's instagram posts of Bennett, you get a sick feeling about all of this. Somehow I think there is so much more that this young man has had to endure from a very early age. Very sad all around.
@Nins, this is a classic case of grooming. She worked with him when he was a small boy — directed him and acted with him (played his mother, I believe). They keep in contact through the years, and the relationship between them morphs into this? Beyond the legal matter of his not being of legal age when they had sex, I see an ethical breach that would have been true even if he had been 18. It’s an abuse of power. Child actors are conditioned to do anything to please adults who have a say in their careers. They may be, from a young age, around adult behavior they should not be exposed to. Some of them end up with damaged social and emotional skills, and may lack an emotional resiliency commensurate with their age. It makes them especially vulnerable to predatory adults.
2
If Asia Argento is guilty of the accusations against her, it does not relieve Weinstein of culpability for what he may have done to Argento.
During a sexual harassment training for a school staff, a savvy female assistant principal explained to us that women should pay special attention. A very low percentage of men accused of sexual harassment ever experience any consequences. Women, on the other hand, are mostly punished severely.
This is still true. Look at the rapid response to claims against Argento vs. how long it has taken for claims against Weinstein to move to legal proceedings. There's even a question whether Weinstein has a hand in bringing these accusations to the fore.
Louis C.K., who admitted that the sexual harassment claims against him were true is already back on stage. Trump is still president and no legal proceeding have even been considered. Koby Bryant paid off his accuser and continued playing basketball. The Knicks paid an 11 million dollar settlement in a sexual harassment case against Isiah Thomas. He is currently president of the New York Liberty Women's basketball team.
2
They and I mean all of the participants sound a bit nutty and I would like to know if any of them may have been involved in events that precipitated the suicide of Anthony Bourdain
5
Whatever Asia Argento's failures in judgement with regard to Jimmy Bennett might have been, this situation is in no way comparable to Weinstein or the "Me Too" movement and it is a disservice to that movement to make such an analogy. The essence of Me Too is the power dynamic that the perpetrator has over the victim not only in that moment, but in the long-term affecting career and work (whether in Hollywood or elsewhere) among other things. That is not the case here.
Argento has no power over Jimmy Bennett's career--she cannot decide whether he will work or not or what movies he will or won't be in. Mr. Bennett's sad and unsuccessful trajectory is not at the hands of Asia Argento (rather his parents and himself) who seems to have supported him throughout his life.
And, honestly, does anyone really believe, in this day and age, that a 17 year old male is not an adult man capable of fending off a rather petite woman? Pretty hard for a man to have intercourse with a woman against his will--the physics of the biology render that difficult.
4
@cdesser, it is very much the case here! Argento is a film director. She acted with Bennet, and directed him, in her own film when he was a young boy. She abused her power in the film industry — took advantage of the hand she had in Bennet’s career — just like Weinstein did. (I don’t buy Argento’s version of her relationship with Weinstein, but that is a different matter.)
4
@cdesser
I completely agree with what Passion for Peaches said. I just want to add that Asia sent Bennett a text later that day saying he’d definitely be in her next movie. I’m pretty sure you can find the text out there.
5
@cdesser You might want to read up on statutory rape. Age, not physical size, is the determining factor.
Is Rain Dove two people? Because that is exactly what writing the word “they” implies. A person who is non-conforming has every right to identify as such, but to re-define the word “they” as meaning “a single person who considers himself/herself both sexes” will not change societal views. It will just make an article really unclear and confusing to read.
19
Leaving aside the mind bendering aspects of the (or should I write it?) article I am left to think that: 1. Bennett needs to be charged with bribery. 2. Argento needs to be charged with sex with a minor, and: 3. People need to be very wary in disclosing anything private to Them (R.D. Dubilewski)
4
@jeremyp Keep in mind that McGowan, and many of the Metoo victims of Weinstein etc, all threatened to sue and received money to cover up their stories, just as Bennett did. Do all these women also need to be "charged with bribery"? He sent a notice of intent to sue for sexual assault, and she decided to settle out of court. How is that bribery?
3
@jeremyp, what you mean is extortion, not bribery.
@Passion for Peaches it's not extortion if done through the legal system.
Made in America!
2
Have to echo the comments here expressing incredulity at this situation. News broke yesterday (Wednesday) of the existence of these texts, shared by the model, and some shadow of doubt, though indefinable, seemed to cloud over the facts of the case. Now, with this article, the additional revelation of the relationship between the model and Rose McGowan? Ugh. At this point I feel we are witnessing an entire community of exploiters, abusers, victims, and lost individuals, offending against each other and trying to draw us into the fray. What a mess.
10
I'm curious as to why the writer doesn't use "Dubilewski" when referring to Rain Dove Dubilewski, and instead uses the two first names. Isn't it the NYT style to use the last name on second reference?
4
@Karen, I assume it’s because Rain Dove is their professional (modeling) name, while the longer version is their legal name. How this melds with the NYT Stylebook is a separate question.
It's one of those "he" said, "she" said, and now, "they" said situations.
19
Amen to that.
3
Betrayal of trust by all parties - Ms. Argento, Jimmy B, and this Rain Dove character.
5
I replied to thank one person who objected to the writing here. That was insufficient: thank you, everyone, who found this article impossible to follow and to all who found its content scurrilous.
11
The #metoo hashtag was muted by me within seconds of it appearing on Twitter.
Signed,
Female
Gendered (proudly)
Human
2
From top to bottom, everything about this reeks of opportunism, or at least proof to the old adage that 'private should be private', or 'don't air your dirty laundry in public'.
If there is a sympathetic character, it is to me Asia Argento. The 'selfie' of her in bed with Jimmy Bennett---a photo taken, presumably, by Mr. Bennett himself----shows a lovely woman in the throes of post-coital bliss. It is a captured moment of supreme trust and intimacy, one meant for only the parties directly involved, not shared with a voyeuristic public. I truly felt for Ms. Argento, knowing what would be made of that photo.
True, being married to Anthony Bourdain at the time would certainly keep Ms. Argento out of the nomination for the Marriage and Fidelity Person of the Year award, but---again, letting private remain private---that is none of our business.
4
@David Bartlett I don't think you're on social media much. If you are, please take a look at Argento's instagram. I imagine you might have a different view. Well unless you're a friend or relative and blind to all the madness. By your logic, I suppose you would say that all those women who took glowing photos with Weinstein, looking like they were in eternal bliss, were not assaulted by him as they claimed. The point is that, Bennett felt he was sexually assaulted and sent a notice to sue her, and he was also a minor according to California. No one forced her to settle out of court and pay to silence him. She, as one of the leaders of the metoo movement, should have definitely known better.
1
Is this actually an article? I’m not questioning the importance and veracity of the facts (although maybe I should); I’m questioning the writing style that makes it sound like vapid middle school gossip.
20
I'm really torn on this issue. I'm not at all torn on the #MeToo issue. But as it regards Asia Argento, I have to wonder if she ever thought about her own history. I'm not presuming her guilt, however. It's possible she's innocent...I have no way of knowing.
It's quite possible for a person to be the victim of rape and also be guilty of inappropriate sexual contact with someone themselves. Think about child abusers. They were often victims of abuse themselves. It's not an excuse for their actions, but it goes some distance in explaining their predilections.
As for Rain Dove's standards that Ms. Argento must meet: "Proof that they didn’t pay off this individual, proof that they didn’t approve any payments if they had occurred, proof that they had indeed been harassed and rejected all sexual advances through action or verbally, proof that they hadn’t engaged sexually via an alibi, and a few more..." These are almost impossible to meet. How does one prove a negative. How does one prove they *didn't* pay someone off or *didn't* approve payments that might have been made?
For Ms. Argento this is certainly a can of worms. For the rest of us, the #MeToo movement is alive and well and won't be diminished because a messenger's credibility is under attack.
3
As we get older we find ourselves out of step with many popular opinions. That's me, as I approach middle age. I don't know what to describe what Argento did -- potentially filthy and, yeah, I would expect the teenager's mother to be horrified. That said, as noted in the comments below, this would have been an illegal encounter in 2/3 of the United States.
What exactly was Rain Dove outraged about? Should Argento have taken the kid across state lines? "Next time, go to Nevada!"
@John Sorry, I meant "legal"
I have one thing to say to Ms. Argento: who was the adult in the room when you had sex with Jimmy Bennet?
Ms. Argento is her own worst enemy. I have never believed her claims against Harvey Weinstein, given that she kept the relationship going for so long. And the photo she she posted on Instagram, before her boyfriend Bourdain’s suicide was announced, of her wearing a tee shirt that read “F— Everyone” and a caption reading “You know who you are”? Really disturbing.
7
My heart hurts all the more for Anthony Bourdain.
This is what he was dealing with when he killed himself, not to mention the paparazzi pictures of Asia kissing another guy in Italy while he was working in France, just days before he died.
9
I feel dirty having read this. No one in this sad twisted sordid story comes off looking good, including us, the audience.
16
Rain Dove? They? Why, in the name of being politically correct, must we desecrate the English language? How about just plain-old ‘it’?
28
@Lewis Sternberg Only someone with no knowledge of the language they purport to police, in addition to language dynamics, in general, would make such a statement.
Your ancestors spoke a different dialect of English than you speak today, and your descendants will speak a different dialect of whatever English has become in the future. Policing language is the realm of those who think for some reason they know more than the millions before them and the millions who come after them.
Also, given English's nature to adopt words from other languages, as well as change the common definition of words within a generation, make it a vibrant and most useful language. If we were to follow what you believe to be correct, English would become a dead language. Language is dynamic. That's the beauty of it. As we and our societies change and grow, so does our common tongue. It's only through aggressive policing of language does it become a tool of those who think for whatever reason they can grab a dragon by the tip of its tail and bend it to their will.
2
@Lewis Sternberg
Yes, exactly, thank you. I couldn’t even follow this, looking everywhere for plural subjects.
1
In 2/3 of the US this sexual encounter would have been legal but since the age of consent if 1 yr younger in CA Argento is now a pedophile and a predator? I don't like anyone involved in this case at all. Things have changed since I was young- people named "Rain Dove" who were gender nonconforming and counterculture in outlook didn't run to the police and snitch on their friends when they broke laws, especially if the laws in question tended to be lame anyway. There have always been very dysfunctional people in society but we are going through a stage when they are given a lot of clout- whether it is Trump or the media and colleges handing over power and giving respect to people who are pretty much the leftwing versions of Trump.
15
Given the people involved... it's impossible to take any of this seriously.
21
The MeToo movement lost me when they forced the resignation of Al Franken, for holding his hands over someones breasts in a photograph years ago. Like all movements, the all or nothing platforms that they stand on become shaky when it is all or nothing. In the case of Franken, we lost a good voice in the senate. The idea that everyone in the center has to support the furthest fringe of every doctrine got us where we are today, with Trump as a president. When I heard Rose McGowan's strident speech, the hairs stood up on my neck. I am glad that many brave women came forward, but I would hate to see this valuable movement become a caricature, because the fringe characters with the loudest voice carry it.
32
@thewriterstuff Actually Franken was outed for groping various females bottoms.
1
Perhaps you the NYT should be focussing on the state of the world, on climate change, on social injustices, on our POTUS who is very very inept and let the New York Post deal with Ms Argento and Mr/Ms Rain Dove.
13
@Bartleby33 The NYT that I read daily does, in fact, cover those topics. And that's the beauty of a newspaper: it's daily size expands and contracts based on the number of stories and advertisements required to print that day's edition. So there isn't a set number of stories nor subjects that a paper is limited to publish. I would think that being a keen observer of this newspaper's contents you would have already reached this conclusion.
Would you then think, based on your argument, that a newspaper should cease publishing the funnies, classified ads, wedding announcements, or obituaries simply because they don't deal with the topics you have deemed most important, or can the New York Times, as a working model of our pluralistic society publish a variety of stories for all of its readers?
1
If this was a Hollywood movie with its twists, turns and extreme characters, I would not go see it because it is too unbelievable. Looks like I might when "it" comes out, so to speak.
2
If Rain Dove’s choice of pronoun is only a “preference”, then why not defer to what I would imagine your readership prefers and more importantly what usage (rather than fashion) provides us—dropping the “they”, “them” invention for “her” and “him” and, to be sensitive to Dove, just repeating “Rain Dove” wherever a pronoun might go. It will be awkward but less so than “they” “them”. What do you do when you get to “themself.” Ironically, the model, gender changing Rain Dove is speaking up for directness, “plainness” and putting the truth on the table.
15
@Richard
And notice that Rain Dove' own choice of pronoun when speaking is the singular "I". See the quote(s) in the article.
7
@Richard. thank you for that comment. I just had to furrow my brow and read (twice) what should be a simple sentence......"Rain Dove turned the messages over to the Los Angeles police because they believed that Ms. Argento was not being truthful"
The police believed that Ms. Argento was not being truthful? What?
I also see that Rain Dove (just keep repeating the name) refers to OTHER individual persons as "they" and "them". Presumably, if Rain Dove wanted to say that Bennett claims that he was sexually assaulted by Argento, who has since denied his claims, The New York Times, out of deference to Rain Dove's "preferences" would publish this sentence: "They have spoken out because they claim that they were raped by them, although they deny their charges. However, they have emails and texts written to them by them which dispute the facts about them that they publicly released after they read what they had written."
Presumably, Rain Dove's preferences will have been adequately addressed.....
Amusedly,
David Terry
1
What a repulsive saga this is turning out to be.
What a ghastly cast of hypocrites of all stripes.
What an insult to the pain of genuine victims or rape and sexual abuse.
26
I’ll respect anyone’s preferences concerning gender pronouns and I will try to call them whatever they want in my relationships, but NYT copy editors please use the person’s real name instead of they/them if it results in sentences like:
“They said, ‘Someone has some dirt on me,’” Rain Dove, 28, recalled, referring to Ms. Argento. “‘I’m in really, really big trouble.’”
“Who?” is part of your journalistic 5W1H, and a newspaper’s responsibility to convey clearly the answer of “who?” to its readers should come before its responsibility to be polite to the subject of the news in cases where the usage of the preferred pronoun causes ambiguity.
43
Okay, given this article, are we to expect that the subject of news articles now has the ability to dictate the grammar rules by which stories having to do with them are written? Please. Your thousands and thousands of readers have precedence over the wishes of the subject of a news article. After all, isn't it your readers' clear understanding that should be the goal of any news article? The pronominal contortions in this article were laughable---and confusing.
55
@nosam Thank you! I think NYT actually made a bit of an effort, however if you read other news sites reporting of this case, you'll want to go crazy. They, them, their, everywhere. So confusing. What has this world come to? This is crazy.
5
@nosam: This article aligns with the two major style manuals (AP and Chicago), both of which moved in the past year or so toward the use of the singular “they” under certain circumstances. The Columbia Journalism Review covered this in March 2017 in “Stylebooks finally embrace the single ‘they’”:
https://www.cjr.org/language_corner/stylebooks-single-they-ap-chicago-ge...
1
i think that everything said by everyone on this comment thread is utter nonsense. the people in this story are not your friends, your family, or your acquaintances. look to your own homes and to people you actually know, and advance your theories on them, and then everyone involved might learn something.
2
Silver lining?: Maybe the ever-more sordid and hypocritical saga of "MeToo" can now come to a prompt and overdue conclusion, with its lawyer and gossip columnist enriching litany of unfairness and tit for tat character assassination finally curbed, allowing a return of the original and much more worthy project of dismantling the longstanding and unacceptable culture of systemic power abuse in the motion picture industry, entertainment business, news media and politics.
2
Oh dear... the Times is now honoring requests regarding grammar.
I don’t mind that Rain Dove doesn’t like gendered pronouns. After all, many languages use non-gendered pronouns to refer to people.
In English, the non-gendered singular pronoun is “it.” Not “they.” “They” is plural and can refer to people or objects. “It” can also refer to people or objects should “he” and “she” be too confining.
I’m willing to be flexible, but I’m not willing to walk on eggshells and confuse readers to accommodate everyone’s linguistic whims.
Unless I get to decide how you refer to me too, in which case, I would like to be referred to as “Theirself.”
32
Using the third person plural for a single person made this story incredibly hard to follow. Kept thinking that there was a plural antecedent. I think the nyt should use singular pronouns for singular antecedents.
21
That ink spilled would be better used investigating why the lives of ordinary Americans are not improving
Leave Hollywood to TMZ.
10
This is a pretty freaky sideshow in the #metoo movement, but I don't think it amounts to much. When this came to light last week, I had never heard of Asia Argento, Jimmy Bennett, or Rain Dove. In about a month, I expect never to hear of any of them again.
As for the incident itself, it's a bit murky. It seems consensual, but Ms. Argento is obviously guilty of statutory rape, if she did have sex with Mr. Bennett (which appears to be likely). I doubt she'll do any jail time for it, because she's not male; any man would do jail time for this type of thing.
As it is, I think Ms. Argento should accept that her acting career is over, and she'll be fine with her $16 million in assets. And maybe Rain Dove should accept that they appear to be just like any male model, and just as unimportant in the big picture.
2
Somehow Tony Bourdains death got caught up in the middle of this social media and internet mess.
Unless a greater sense of responsibility enters the Internet universe, we may all drift into the next level of computer madness, artificial intelligence!
1
Errol Morris said, "Two hundred years ago, 99.999 percent of human idiocy went unrecorded. Now we have the Internet."
9
So are Rain and Rose considered a ménage à trois?
10
These three women who appear in this article lead very interesting or different lives. There seems to be some unspoken truth only known to them. Most certainly a tangled web. Black mail perhaps? Or revenge?
1
very glad that someone with integrity was privy to the situation. the number of people that are aware of violations like these and don't speak out...appalling.
1
Integrity? Are you kidding?
2
Best comment so far. And exactly what I, and I'd hazard 90% of readers, were thinking all along. This might be news, but integrity got left somewhere far behind.
Interesting developments in this saga. On a tangential note, there HAS to be a better alternative to gendered pronouns than 3rd person plural. It made the article difficult to parse and required multiple readings to sort out who was referring to whom.
10
Rain Dove might be gender non conforming but it doesn't make it any less despicable to turn over texts that only say that consensual sex took place between two people one twenty years older than the other. Unless they think that some arbitrary, very arbitrary age of consent, is reason enough to behave like any other hateful vindictive sex police (informer), there is no excuse for this. If they think something more serious took place than the age difference is irrelevant. And I would bet there is nothing in the texts that would indicate that.
8
Regarding non-gendered pronouns, wouldn't "it" be more correct than "they" in the singular context?
11
Just because Rain Dove prefers nongendered pronouns doesn't mean that you, as a reporter, have to do the same. It is off-putting, annoying and confusing. As to the story itself, too bad Asia Argento felt she had to lie about this -- the Weinstein claim is a separate thing and still credible. The incident with the young boy is not clear-cut nor equivalent at all.
15
I applaud Rain Dove’s statement as a nuanced explanation, and education, of the issues inherent in cases like this one. I also applaud the use of gender-neutral pronouns. But I beg us as a literary culture, can we please differentiate between the singular and the plural? Rain Dove’s statement is insightful but difficult to read for that reason alone. I personally vote for “Ze/Zir/Zir’s” to refer to singular humans and “They/Their/Theirs” for groups, but am open to any suggestion other than “they” etc being used interchangeably.
16
@Sage B
As an editor I struggle a bit with the new flexibility in personal pronouns. But the use of "they" and "them" to refer to an individual goes back centuries (see William Shakespeare and Jane Austin, among many others). You may "vote" for "Ze/Zir," etc., but some individuals prefer to be referred to as "they/them."
From Merriam-Webster online:
The use of they, their, them, and themselves as pronouns of indefinite gender and indefinite number is well established in speech and writing, even in literary and formal contexts.
7
How about calling everyone "they" and when there is more than one they are "theys."
4
@JR That makes sense if that indefinite number is greater than one.
It is deliciously ironic that those who shout early and loudly are often the most guilty
And I though this was the exclusive domain of Republicans and the religious right!
19
How oddly wonderful that the clearest statement of ethics we have heard from all this mess is from Rain Dove.
A compelling, heartfelt, complicated piece of writing.
25
Rain Dove cultivated a friendship with Asia to get information and to turn her over to the media and police. S/he is not somebody anybody should confide in. What is more, Bennett does not seem like much of a victim. He sues left and right. On a different note, I remember the actor James Franco setting up a hotel assignation with a 16 or 17 year old minor, but the consent age is different apparently in New York.
29
@Judith Thinks "Rain Dove cultivated a friendship with Asia to get information and to turn her over to the media and police." What? Where did you get that...?
Quite an accusation against Rain Doce, but that aside, you are correct. The age of consent is different in California so this the possibility of her facing statutory rape charges. In Texas you can walk around with a gun. Do that in Rhode Island and you’ll be charged.
@Judith Thinks
Do you have facts to back up what you said? What exactly do you know about Rain Dove? Bennett “sues left and right”? As far as the public knows, he’s sued twice: his parents for withholding his earnings and Asia Argento for, well, I think we all know.
Before you start casting aspersions maybe you should get your facts straight?
Were I the estranged wife of Bourdain (and mother of his child), I would be investigating the legal recovery of his funds used to pay off Argento's accuser. A truly sad state of affairs for Bourdain's family, by extension.
57
@A
Because Bourdain did not have the right to determine how he spends his own money? Reverse the genders. A high-earning woman needs the permission of her *estranged* husband before spending her money? Phooey.
33
@Wine Country Dude
Yes, but there are legal issues here. Did Bourdain feel emotionally or professionally threatened by all this? If so, there is basis for claiming he was not in his right mind, or felt undue pressure when he made the agreement.
13
@A
Lily: you introduce issues that, so far, have no basis in fact, in order to obscure the issue. If there was undue influence or extortion, those are matters for law enforcement or his estate to be concerned with. (I rather doubt that his *estranged* wife was his executrix). Without that, she entirely lacks standing to object.
7
Thank you Rain for coming forward with this evidence. When people adjacent to perpetrators are able to stand up and say No More Enabling we all win.
22
Most of my comments regarding the meetoo movements were never published by the Times.
I have female friends who are in the show business. Most of them decide to get into that business not because they were talented but because they were beautiful. And most of them were willing to sleep with producers or anyone who will help advance their career.
Look at most of the actresses in Hollywood, how many are actually good ones? They are beautiful and pretty but they are very few actresses who can be considered good.
My point is that the Meetoo movement should differentiate between people working in Hollywood and people working in any other organizations.
55
@Chaks
Are you saying that because there is consent-based sexual activity happening between two people (or many more) in the same industry, that industry should not also critique/eliminate non-consensual sex?
They are not mutually exclusive. I can both be a rape victim and and sexually assault others. No crime is erased on either side.
What this case demonstrates, along with the case of the Lesbian professor at NYU who was recently accused of sexual harassment of her student, is that sexual abuse and harassment is a complex behavior that has diverse perpetrators. The MeToo movement has focused exclusively on calling out straight men who harass women, as if that need be the only real concern. Well, not so fast. There are a LOT of other types of stories out there too, and not all of them involve straight men. Women can be perpetrators. Gay men can be perpetrators. Gay women can be perpetrators. Gender-nonconforming people, too. Let's focus on the behavior of sexual abuse and harassment as the problem, not a specific gender identity or sexual orientation. Only then will the MeToo movement capture all of the reality of this ugly pattern, rather than contribute to the selective privileging of only some portions of it.
160
@tintin Everything you wrote is undeniably true. So what. Most victims of sexual harassment are female, and by a large majority. I use the term "female" because infants, young girls, teenage girls, elderly women, are attacked all over the world every day. And not every soul living and breathing thinks the Me too movement is focused on Hollywood, for goodness sake. Yes, they get the ink, but that's only because they are celebrities. And if you think for one minute being beautiful and pretty is the major reason women of any age are victims, and for some cockeyed reason are willing to lay down and play dead, for what, a line or two in a film?, then you haven't a clue!
@tintin you are spot on. Many #metoo-ers are now defending the alleged perps and treating their victims in the very same way they condemned men who criticized their accusers. The gender-hypocrisy, while predictable, is blatant and pathetic.
2
@tintin Not true. One of the biggest casualties of the #MeToo movement has been Kevin Spacey's (a GAY white male) career.
2
I think it would be a fairly far fetched idea... but not entirely... that is, was this the final straw that pushed Anthony Bourdain over the edge ? I don’t think so, but it is only natural to wonder about it.
If his girlfriend was capable of such lies, I cannot say that I would be jealous of his love life. Not even a tiny, tiny bit.
80
@David Martin, I have wondered the same thing. And I think it has been implied in some reporting around his death. But it’s not an outrageous assumption.
When someone is in a tenuous, fragile place, emotionally — as depressive Bourdain was said to be — and they place all of their trust and love in another person, and that person turns out to not be who she pretends to be, it can be unimaginably devastating. A mentally healthy, rational person can tell himself that whatever the other person did is their problem, not his. Their lies are their failure. He might be disappointed or downright furious with this person, or may even mourn the loss of a treasured relationship. But someone prone to depression and suicide ideation might see a dangerous finality in such a violation of trust. A “last straw.” Proof that neither people nor love can be trusted.
74
Hmmm... proof that we all make mistakes — in trusting in someone who ultimately did not deserve that trust. At such moments in life, it is important to evaluate why we are in that position, how did we get there, and simply and kindly shift the relationship if values have been breached (and break it off if needed). This can sometimes be too much for a person highly invested in another, and who is also fragile, but it does not seem right to make comments on Anthony Bourdain vis a vis Asia Argento based only on information that has been made public.
21
@David Martin
It's not at all a far-fetched idea that this pushed Bourdain over the edge. He was a very honest type, and this scandal/payment/betrayal may have meant in the end that he simply couldn't stand any of it anymore.
17
“It became clear that they were not going to follow their own ethics,” Rain Dove said in the statement, referring to Ms. Argento. “I’m not trying to say we should put anyone in jail or punish anyone,” Rain Dove added in an interview, “but I think everyone should come to the table with the truth.” Seems no one is following their own ethics. If jail is good for the goose?
29
@Mark Rain said this meaning that they personally were not the one to make those decisions - it was for the police to investigate and the district attorney to decide if charges were warranted. Why would Rain deliver the texts to the police otherwise? They aren’t being a hypocrite, just making clear this wasn’t some vindictive ploy.
1
@Mark So far, I'm not aware of any goose who's gone to jail regarding #metoo allegations. Have I missed something?
1
there doesn't seem to be a lot of ethical behavior going on Here! just people tricking and deceiving for their own gain. I personally feel the #metoo movement destroyed a lot of lives, no proof or questions asked!
"metoo" is a movement underpinned by Marxist thinking. It offers a critique of gendered power structures. The power grab at the upper echelons of the movement was always a vulnerable soft spot. The shortcomings of the leaders is partially self inflicted but also a result of intense backlash against a particular hypocrisy informed by the ideologies of intersectional feminism.
37
@RA LA SO... no mention of justice for victims of abuse in your withering political critique. Let's not forget that no particular movement will be perfect, especially the people leading it, but what it may achieve is a raised public awareness of injustice, and an opportunity to make things right for those who have suffered. And we have 'Marxist underpinnings' and 'intersectional feminism' and idealism to thank for that.
@RA LA, not to mention a lot of mumbo jumbo like intersectional that normal folks don't understand and thus reject out of hand as they seek refuge in the Trumpian counter-revolution.
2