Matt Welch's article is a lengthy piece of rubbish.
To take one of his main points, the torture McCain and many others endured in Hanoi was very different in purpose and physical reality from the enhanced interrogation practiced by the CIA after 9/11. The first was an act of angry brutality with no real purpose other than vengeance (or possibly also a hoped for propaganda benefit when the tortured individual was finally broken). The second was for the specific purpose of obtaining vital intelligence information at a time when the country was under dire threat, the extent and details of which were unknown. Welch is mixing apples and oranges. Enhanced interrogation does work. It is not pretty, granted. A similar incident on a much smaller scale several years ago involved a police commissioner in Germany: Faced with the immediate need to get a child kidnapper to reveal where he had buried the live child, the commissioner convinced him that if he did not immediately talk, he would be tortured. The kidnapper revealed where the child was buried and the child's life was saved. The police commissioner was arrested and brought to trial. 'The world is what it is...'
1
Possibly I can understand how a POW might not want someone with a 4F Draft Deferment not attending their funeral but it's hard for me to understand how the White House of the United States Of America cannot honor someone who has given so much for their country as Senator McCain has. How must our veterans feel about this General Kelly? Could veterans start taking a knee during the playing of our anthem at football games? This is not the America I was raised in.
3
It's very disheartening to have a president acting like a pig. He does nothing but tweet insults and grovel in the muddiest of politics. So sad. He has no compassion, no admiration, no inspiration for anyone.
2
“Now that I've seen what the bombs and napalm did to the people on our ship, I'm not so sure . . .”
Morning backstage crew missed it, it seems. Once again:
“Torture" troubled McCain, but voting to send Americans off to bomb innocent Iraqi citizens, many women and children among them, based on a CIA lie and Bush-Cheney's advocacy didn't. Go figure that sense of morality.
4
This is a good time to remind ourselves that if we had compulsory military service for everyone without possible exceptions, we would not be such a bellicose country.
If every politician across the land, and their children were required to serve in the military, we would be a more peace loving country. Certainly, if a politician knew that his children might die in a war, they would not be so quick to start one.
Senator McCain knew the cost of war and torture at a very personal level.
Let’s end wars by bringing back the draft and making sure that all politicians and their children have skin in the game.
8
@JuQuin While I agree with you about compulsory service, but why just for military service. Every American should be required to select a 2-year community or military service. It could be for a non-profit, educational institution, religious organization or government agency, such as a version of the Peace Corp, or UNICEF or any of thousands of other national or international orgs. But like the military, government financial support would be required.
6
"Torture" troubled McCain, but voting to send Americans off to bomb innocent Iraqi citizens, many women and children among them, based on a CIA lie and Bush-Cheney's advocacy didn't. Go figure that sense of morality.
1
Calling torture after 9/11 necessary - when almost all of the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, which was not targeted by the US - is not only inhumane, it's illogical.
8
We’ve known that torture as an interegation technique is garbage since the 17th century witch trials. The fact that John McCain had tobuse his last breaths to stress this fact and that our draft dodging president still refuses to believe it is a sad commentary on either the intelligence of our leadership or their lust for savagery.
14
We haven't gotten Senaor McCain's lesson, have we? And the saddest part of this is the lack of basic morality in the decisions of this government. 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely.' We're living in it.
12
Modern Republicans have no use for morals. It gets in the way of making money and destroying lives.
14
I honor John McCain's sense of honor, especially as it helped him survive torture at the hands of the North Vietnamese, and later led him to staunchly oppose America's illegal, immoral and ultimately pointless use of torture after 9/11.
That having been said, we must remember why the North Vietnamese treated downed American pilots so savagely.
When McCain was shot down over Hanoi in October 1967, he was participating in "Operation Rolling Thunder," the attempt by Lyndon Johnson's administration to bomb North Vietnam to the bargaining table or at least cease its support for the Vietcong insurgency against South Vietnam. Some 643,000 tons of bombs were dropped during this unsuccessful effort (part of a staggering 7 million total tons dropped on Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia during the war). Of course, civilian targets were not spared.
Let me stress strongly -- this explains North Vietnamese fury toward captured U.S. airmen, but in no way excuses it. Nothing can even ameliorate the horrific tortures, beatings, withholding of medical care and psychological trauma experienced by McCain and others.
But in all the laudatory news and opinion pieces about this great American, I have seen little or no acknowledgment of just what Lt. John McCain had been doing when he was captured.
Surely the brutality and futility of the U.S. bombing of Indochina in the 1960s and '70s have something extra to teach us.
27
The torturer acquires absolute power over his victim and when the crime of torture is never acknowledged and torturers go free, violence is sanctioned and normalized. This violence seeps into institutions and relationships. Inflicted first on those deemed “other,” it spreads and multiplies to include those who don’t conform, who demand equality and practice free speech.
Where torture goes unpunished, democracy erodes and corruption, protected by the potent threat of terror, flourishes.
The CIA escaped any penalty for its inhumane and illegal activities. It has become a criminal organization that operates in secrecy and impunity. No one stands up to them, no real oversight is exerted by our feckless Congress, where corruption also breeds, protected by a tacit understanding with the “intelligence” community: you keep our secrets and we’ll keep yours. They invite proven liars like Brennan and Hayden in to reassure them that all is well, thus freeing Congress from their constitutional responsibility to protect the people above their interests.
Tim Weiner wrote in Legacy of Ashes that without transparency and oversight, the CIA is a mob organization. Remarkably, he also observed here that there is no deep state in the United States. He is wrong.
The CIA is the deep state and it continues to erode norms of justice and human rights that Americans have taken for granted for too long.
7
The best means of turning your enemy into a friend is friendly persuasion. Either you convince him or he convinces you, or maybe none of you convinces the other, but then you know each other's point of view and you can respect each others right to his belief and thus part ways in peace as friends.
Friendly persuasion is by far more effective than war and the death, destruction, hatred, and torture it spawns.
5
@Sam: i do agree, wholeheartedly.
but wars are fought bc some people always benefit.
while others are ready to become cannon fodder ...
Typical misleading piece. The word torture typically elicits the type of evil sadistic measures that the VC imposed on Mr. Cain. I think just about all of us are against that. Water boarding and the other techniques that the US used and hopefully still use are clearly not torture. But, the left destroys another word much like the word rape. Too bad.
1
@JP Torture is inflicting pain and fear to extract information. If we can't agree waterboarding does both of those things, then we have different connections to reality.
13
JP, I got towels and a bucket or two, as well as a water faucet, and I'm sure I can find a big long board and some straps around here somewheres.
So if you'd like to drop by the house, I'm pretty sure I can explain just why you're completely wrong.
10
@JP Water boarding and water tortures were techniques used during the Spanish Inquisition. It was used by US soldiers in the Philippines during the Filipino uprising in the early 1900's. It was not allowed and US soldiers were courtmartialed. It was wrong then and now.
9
Unfortunately, there has been no epiphany on the evils of bombing civilian targets, either. A talking head on Good Morning America was discussing the terrible torture McCain endured - but no mention of the pain endured by the targets of McCain's bombing.
"In just one night, more than 2,000 homes were destroyed around Kham Thien, a busy shopping street in Hanoi. About 280 people were killed and at least as many again injured. Ha Mi had a friend, whose house was hit.
"There were a few houses still standing, but most of it was just rubble, flattened on the ground - or even just a big hole. Houses were just gone, it was horrible. I remember seeing people just standing there looking at it - but there was nothing there. Everything was just gone."
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20719382
11
@Ed Watters: ... and so very unfortunately
we will undoubtedly see much more of this
with killer robots on their [utterly unwise] rise.
as to the countless victims of - undeclared - wars
[and which only make sense to the money grabbers]:
i do hate to think of the anti-US backlash all those drones
are breeding as they keep dropping on muslim countries ...
1
thanks for publishing these thoughts. i hope you have a follow-up entitled what donald trump is teaching us about torture. as if his corruption didn't matter, the president has broken with protocol by flying the flag over the white house at full staff in a direct insult to senator mccain.
it takes a big person to refuse release from a wartime prison camp ahead of other prisoners and to further a propaganda program and it takes a very small one to break protocol in the way trump has. a very small person
8
It's frustrating when I hear from friends in law enforcement the reasons why physical torture doesn't work and then hear policy makers say otherwise. They don't seem to get the psychology of the prisoners.
6
@In the Know: do they even bother to care?
1
@°julia eden It's not about caring. it's about understanding how to manipulate the mind of a terrorist with narcissistic tendencies (which many have). It works better than physical torture, where they'll only tell you what you want to hear.
1
Mr. Welch writes a wonderful essay that I hopelessly dream that the Donald and Gina Haspel will read. John McCain was uniquely qualified to instruct us on torture. When the thoughts of his passing fade away, we should honor Senator McCain by doing everything possible to remember his teachings on torture and America's obligation to lead morally. That starts in November, 2018, when we have a chance to restore our government.
3
We forget faster than we learn that torture does not work. Once tortured soldiers who revealed information were considered traitors but we've come to realize that everyone has a breaking point. Everyone will say anything to stop sufficient pain. Unfortunately, the role of torture as a plot device in fiction, literature, TV and movies, only reinforces the point that toture works, along with our own hubris about our abilties to be similar to the fictional heros who withstand any amount of torture, while simultanously misdirecting the evil doers. Unfortunatley, life is not fiction.
4
President Trump, who praises Paul Manafort for not flipping, could have spared a few more words to honor this American hero for not flipping despite years of torture.
10
Pres. Obama may have banned torture, but he still wouldn't comply with the supreme law of the land and prosecute the torturers and their enablers in the Bush II administration. Only prosecution under law will restore America's honor and prevent torture in the future. Whether or not torture "works" is utterly beside the point. It is a crime, and the law permits no exceptions.
This comment does not criticize the Times.
4
This may come as a shock, but the President cannot reach out and prosecute people--and you're making precisely the same argument that Trump makes about his "right," to tell the Justice Department who to go after.
3
Thanks, Matt.
2
Did we really need John McCain to "teach us" that torture is sickening, morally repugnant, and contrary to all the values that the USA is based on?
That said, McCain deserves our thanks for stressing the immorality and depravity of torture, under any disingenuous name like 'enhanced interrogation'! As he said, it's "about who we are"! Sadly, the likes of Trump, Cheney, and Gina Haspel seems to be "who we are" in too many cases in recent years
14
Intensive questioning, with controlled physical discomfort, works.
When I say 'physical discomfort' I do not mean the hell McCain and the other POW's went through. I mean standard cop shop items like temperature controls, delay in food, sleep deprivation, marathon questioning, etc
Yes, under such circumstances moose & squirrel will say anything you want them to say.
9
@Rocket J Squrriel, ? What kind of proof can you provide to support your view?
3
@Rocket J Squrriel Actually, sleep deprivation is more likely to produce false confessions.
5
War is insanity. And along with that insanity comes torture. But the USA is NOT presently, nor has it ever been legally at war with anyone or any country.......for the Past Thirty Years!!
Nothing we did in Afghanstan carries even the remotest adherence to the law. Bush sent military force into Afghanistan to capture or kill Osama Bin Ladin.....he failed miserably....allowing OBL to slip "mexican federale style" right thru our military's fingertips at ToraBora!! And we, the Public, accepted that, caught up in the insanity of war, undeclared war....like drunks swinging wildly at shadows in the Bar parking lot at 2AM.
3
To the "New Republican party" it's good riddance to John McCain. Let's get the new guy in here quick and stack the SCOTUS.
Republicans, enamored with their minority hating Criminal-in-Chief, can't wait to impose their unilateral will upon all Americans. McCain stood for the now quaint idea of bi-partisanship and compromise. They blame him for whatever tattered vestiges of the ACA remain to help middle class Americans.
Republican congress critters now roll their eyes towards heaven and bombast in affectionate terms for the man they wish had died before the ACA vote.
Republicans disparaged McCain by electing the draft dodging buffoon that denied McCain's hero status and continued his juvenile tantrum even as McCain lay dying. Republicans couldn't wait for McCain to be dead so they can get on with the Trump agenda.
Yeah McCain wasn't perfect but surviving a Vietnamese prison camp and choosing not to be released early is the unequivocal evidence of his hero status. He choose conviction over having a broken body for tbe rest of his life. He had more strength in his little finger than Trump, who wets himself in the presence of Putin, can even imagine.
And there he goes, a man who could still admire without malice the man who defeated him for tbe presidency even though he was >gasp< black. Hating minorities, especially Obama, is the basis for everything Trump and the new Republicans do.
RIP John. The last great Republican Senator. God help us all.
17
Another meaningful argument for a return to the universal national armed service for all Americans. Over the past few decades, we have seen compelling arguments against war and against torture by those who once served our nation in the front lines, while hearing ignorant arguments in favor of war and torture by those who carefully avoided service with bone spurs. Those who know the hell of war will always seek ways to avoid it for the sake of their children and grandchildren, a point that seems lost by far too many today.
8
With all do respect, there is a difference. McCain was tortured by the NV just to be sadists and hurt him. He had nothing of value to give them. If we torture terrorists it is for a productive purpose of finding out about their plots and contacts in order to stop another attack. There is a difference.
if that is true, then why were we torturing months and years after they had been completely cut off from their organizations. Torture is always claimed to be for security reasons, but it has been proven time and again not to increase security (and in fact to decrease it).
7
John McCain was, we would all agree, a "real" man while the head of our government who puts on a show of "strength," is what we once called "a phony." Check out his submissiveness with Putin and Kim. He has demonstrated no real courage such as seen in the women running for political office. (See: New York Times "For Female Candidate Harassment and Threats...")
It appears too that most Republicans in congress lack the courage to stand up to their president. Democrats need to emphasize the "courage gap," those who show real strength and those that are afraid and are, in a word, weaklings.
9
@J.E.: why should those republicans need courage
if things are running the way they want them to run?
reagan, bush, trump, after him, who to trump him?
We went to war in Iraq when our administration's inclinations to do so were reinforced by the testimony of the Iraq guy we water-boarded a number of times. He lied and gave us the info we wanted so we would stop water-boarding him. You don't get the truth from waterboarding; you get whatever info you want, anything to stop the torture.
Christopher Hitchens defended the Bush II invasion of Iraq and didn't think waterboarding was torture--until he had himself water-boarded just to prove this. He changed his mind. It was torture. There is an online video of him being so tortured. Anyone who pooh-poohs waterboarding should do a Hitchens and try it--or shut up.
5
John McCain taught us that if your father is a high ranking military leader in the war in which you are serving, when you care caught and imprisoned, just sing like a songbird and you will receive less harsh treatment. One wonders what the quid pro quo was for his release…
With the historical revisionism now attending his death, we will never learn how he conjured his way through Vietnam, learn the facts about the men he left behind, nor apologize to the families he treated as trash and screamed at for challenging his narrative on what happened to their husbands in North Vietnam. We'll never learn the truth why he voted down any political reckoning for the lost troops, nor why he voted for the destruction of Iraq based upon lies nor cheered the death of Gaddaffi and the resultant chaos in Libya. Or supporting the death squads in South America.
Or supporting Hillary's plan to oust Assad so that oil pipelines from Saudi Arabia & Qatar can run up thru Syria to Turkey to provide oil to the EU. He was a founding member of that neo-con group that is still accusing Iran of a nuke program that regulatory agencies say doesn't exist.
But all that is now "our oil under their sand" - and we can turn a blind eye to another false flag justified war that McCain would have supported regardless of the truth.
We ought to be saddened by his death, but we ought not forget his responsibility in enabling the deaths of so many others in countries whose resources we have laid claim to.
3
@Gerald Wadsworth: thank you.
for as bitter as these truths are,
they can't be repeated often enough.
"america first" or "american exceptionalism"
- and by the same token: "[male] whites first"
or european [neo]colonialism and greed -
bring too much disruption and despair ...
while too few even care to change things,
or think they can't do anything about them.
Oh, so dropping bombs on civilians isn't torture?
4
If torture worked it would be harder to be noble. But I’m convinced it doesn’t. That should be enough for pragmatists to rule it out.
5
McCain was a soldier, he was a POW, his torture was for sadistic pleasure and for revenge. There is no comparison between savage torture of him and inflicting pain on a terrorist mastermind, under supervision and guidelines, to extract information about terrorist master plans. It is wrong to torture for sadistic pleasure and revenge. If America had done such torture, it was wrong. But, inflicting pain on terrorist masterminds, using waterboarding or harsher techniques, is justified and moral and need to be legal, if it is for the purpose of getting information to avoid a massive terror attack after using all other methods. Anybody who says otherwise is not living in the real world, even if it is McCain.
Remember, Bin Laden was summarily killed by an American soldier and he is a n American hero. Similarly, the American intelligence officer who waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed to get information about Bin Laden must be treated as a hero and not as a torturer, as some people suggest.
1
Great, now we’re classifying and prioritizing different versions of torture. #notmycountry.
2
@Alex E: you could have taken the easy road
and just ask the pakistani gov't where OBL was.
but for the sake of drama and political strategies
"people in charge" decided to proceed otherwise.
and apart from that: has killing OBL
made the world one tiny bit safer yet?
I miss the country I used to know and love. It was never perfect, but we did abide by our agreements, not changing on a whim every time a new administration / congress came into power. We are untrustworthy now, in many ways. Not only can our allies and enemies not know what we will do two years hence, but they can't even count on us having even a pathetic flip-flopping democracy two years hence.
5
Torturers produces more resolve in tortured to fight against torturer. Strike back against much easier recruiting.
Dehumanizing the enemy to sub human opens door to brutality of torture.
2
Thank you for this piece. I agree Senator McCain is a fine and honorable man and a war hero. I fervently wish that he had taken the bravery and wisdom he learned as a POW to the next level—to oppose not only our government sanctioned torture but to have understood that any form of violence perpetrated on another diminishes our moral standing in the world. Did he not consider burning women and children alive in Vietnam torture? Did he not see the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis maimed, tortured and dead from American bombs? Neither of these sovereign countries had perpetrated any acts of aggression against the United States, and yet he promoted these wars. I only wish that Ms. McCain has returned to speak eloquently about the moral deprivation of all forms of violence. Throughout his life, he still saw the world as "friends and enemies" as "us vs them." I hope that the next generation picks up where he left off, to know and act upon the truth that violence never brings peace, that war is never an effective choice for cooperation, that murder may appear to offer short-term solutions, but in the long term only creates a cycle of hatred and violence. I admire Senator McCain very much—he was a statesman and fine human being. But I think he could have left an even greater legacy had he become a spokesman for peace rather than more war.
17
Senator John McCain was highly courageous, authentically patriotic, and a statesman who was willing to speak truth to his fellow legislators and supporters.
McCain’s told the truth about torture. His message, with a few notable exceptions, fell on deaf ears.
McCain remained a loyally conservative Republican to the very end. Unfortunately that party two years ago devolved into a far right-wing, pseudo-populist, plutocratic and borderline kleptocratic personality cult: The Trumpublican Party.
The vast majority of Trumpublican legislators are flag-pin-on-the-lapel pseudo-patriots and very real political opportunists. Character, for them, no longer counts. Fidelity to the U.S. Constitution, the rule of law, democratic norms and basic civility no longer count. They have sold their party’s conservative soul to the Devil incarnate in order to maintain their own power and prestige, and in order to promote the tax-cutting and deregulatory agenda of their greedy, all too greedy, donors.
The era of Political pragmatism, the pursuit of the general welfare and of politics as the the art of compromise—McCain’s era—is now visible solely through a rear-view mirror.
This exemplary senator will be sorely missed.
15
So; you commit yourselves to an empty character in response?
If the guy's life is worth anything to you; you will fight to keep your souls or, at least fight back to save what's left of them. You are getting closer to having to decide; the rest of us are counting on you.
3
Isn’t it torture to drop a hellfire missile on someone’s house and let them suffer under the rubble for days? What about white phosphorus burns? Choosing to become a combatant means you expose yourself to all sorts of horrendous pain and death. War is hell. EIT is much less painful than a terrible death like being burned alive. Waterboarding and sleep deprivation are nothing at all. Oiy
4
@Chris McClure
It is also then torture to sneak into a foreign nation, hijack 4 civilian planes, drill two into a crowded city of tall buildings, with two more headed for governmental buildings of that nation - one going astray in a field due to bravery by citizens aboard.
Alas, he left that wife but the spirit remained.
1
@Gangulee The next one was rich. Very rich.
1
Thank you! Very well-stated.
7
When you torture another human being, you sell your soul. You may win the battle, but lose the war.
13
I think if Trump's coup d'etat triumphs, the US should adopt the turkey vulture as its national bird. That's the flying dinosaur I identify with Trump.
9
@Steve Bolger Turkey vultures perform useful work for the environment, cleaning up rotting meat that would otherwise fill up the world. I can't actually think of a life form that is worthy of him. We would need something not truly alive, a parasite that hitches a ride on the body politic, and hijacks its machinery to make endless copies of itself. These hordes of copies, wearing red hats, would then and go about their lives repeating his instructions without a critical thought in their empty heads, seeking to infect others with his hate. Sounds more like a virus.
5
Republicans and Democrats alike are found wanting when it comes to standing up to the issue of torturing our fellow humans.
Some outright demand torture and some "hate politics". They hide in their urban or suburban domiciles thinking only of their offspring, houses, condos, vacations and of themselves, I saw that in action during 2016 - apathy - it is a disease just like alcoholism or cancer. You can't see it but you know it when you HEAR it.
I'm not perfect, I'm reminded of that everyday at work and play, but I will stand up for anything or anyone that fights for and believes in dignity and basic human rights for all and lives their beliefs.
3
McCain ought have been the GOP nominee and then president in 2000, just as Clinton ought have been the Democrat nominee and then president in 2008. Not only would the nation have walked through 9/11 differently, we'd have been spared the last 18-year nightmare of 3 mideast wars without end and then the dangerous Big Banking and Obama racial divisiveness since 2008 - as well as the traitorous deceit of Trump in 2016. History always speaks to the present. It has been screaming since 2000, with few Americans listening. It doesn't take much to imagine a better U.S. and world today had 2000 and 2008 gone down with competent leadership and then cooler, more healing statesmanship in Congress. Historians will consider the last 2 decades to be a pivot point in America, colossally failed by both political parties - with no end to that in sight.
3
@Margot: if you consider that "the leaders"
are often just put up there as puppets
with their strings being pulled from behind the scenes
by people who just want to get rich.
and to distract the masses from their greed
they just keep us busy splitting & fighting each other.
"dividing and CON_quering" has always worked.
1
My armchair analysis of the post 911 reality of the USA is as follows: The 911 terrorists succeeded beyond their dreams in igniting and catalyzing the beginning of the self-destruction of the USA from within by our own hands. Or, so it seems to me.
We have all become intensely judgmental of one another and unable to forgive the slightest of infractions, as if an inner Kraken has been awaken in all of us and only total annihilation of the enemy within will suffice our craven need for revenge.
9
McCain voted w/Trump 99.9% of the time... It's only in the past year or so, he's spoken out against some Trump policies... Maybe he was once a hero/patriot but not at least to me anymore...
Geroge Bush, and his token Attorney General, Jose Gonzalez, is responsible for those' enhanced interrogation techniques' as well as surveillance of American citizens and the firing of multiple officials in the Justice department because they wouldn't commit crimes to go after Geroge Bush's political enemies.
4
Historically, torture has beget torture.
Many the rallying cry of an inspired fighting force includes knowledge of torture by the opposing force.
According to operatives in the field, valuable intelligence is secured by other means.
Why are we still talking about this?
3
Back in the 1980’s, when I was a young soldier in Northern Ireland, I witnessed torture. Both sides adopted it, not as a means of gaining useful tactical information, but because they could. Sanctioned by the opposing hierarchies, there were those who would inflict appalling suffering on human beings, becoming feral in the process. It sickened me then, it sickens me now. These torturers were not the people fit to defend the sanctity of state or a cause.
Donald Trump says that we have bad people too, and, for once, he’s right.
The darkest inference about American torture is that it is the grimmest meme of the creeping tyranny that threatens the country as a whole. Police officers, civilians far from the exigencies of war, beat, tase, shoot, and kill suspects allegedly in fear of their own lives. Even ordinary people demonstrate extraordinary violence in so called “stand your ground” scenarios. The mythology of those who torture in the name of the state is that they represent usually educated, erudite, individuals, recruited and trained to be the best and most selfless a nation can produce. The reality is that it takes stunning sang froid to torture, an act of cowardice and vicious entitlement from behind the veil of official sanction.
Yet, in civilian society, there are those who want our guard dogs to bite. To them, it is a logical expedience in a time of war where the end justifies the means. However, the war is not real, torture is a bonfire of morality. Beware.
57
I don't recall the public having much say in the matter one way or the other. In 2001, the US began detaining suspects related to terrorism. In 2002, the CIA asked the White House for permission to use "enhanced interrogation techniques." This basically meant they wanted to scratch a few items off the "do not use" list in the Army Field Manual. US interrogation was not exactly a pleasant experience in the first place. The question was how far could the US push the boundaries between interrogation and torture.
John Yoo said the torture line had some legal space to expand. Condoleezza Rice presented the idea before the Justice Department. Attorney General John Ashcroft signed off on the proposed measures among others. The open question is when and how much did Bush know about the torture. According to Bush, he was briefed in detail as early as 2002. According to anyone else you ask, Bush was intentionally withheld specific details for his own legal protection. Either way, Bush approved the measure and torture became official US policy.
Congress and the public didn't become aware until much later. Reports began surfacing around 2005. However, the legislative attempt to bar inhumane practices by restricting the CIA to Army Field Manual Techniques was vetoed by Bush in 2008. This despite previously successful legislative and judicial attempts to end torture as policy.
In effect, the White House defied our checks on executive power and McCain didn't stop that from happening.
4
I'll say this as one who finds the defense budget outrageous in light of our country's other needs and who is well aware of the many times McCain has voted/acted along party lines with which I disagree (including the treatment of Judge Garland)... at least he was someone who claim to be taking a moral stand and not be laughed right out of the room.
Take, for instance, torture. Whether in presidential debates, confirmation hearings or punditry, it reflects poorly on our national character that we spend so much time debating whether or not torture yields useful intelligence. One can barely even raise the issue of morality without eye-rolling; as if our country is beyond matters of right and wrong. If nothing else, I could respect McCain simply for being strong enough to recognize the vital importance of reconciling that moral argument when so many policy-makers were (and are) too weak to do the same.
Was he some paragon of virtue with a moral compass locked on straight and narrow? Of course not. But it was evident that he T-R-I-E-D. Far, far too many people in power just can't be bothered.
9
@Matt, How much does one want to spend on something one does not want to use?
2
Yes, we should oppose torture, or at least try to minimize it.
Life, itself, may be seen as full of torturous activities we must bear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take schooling, for example.
We have to sit still in classrooms, for long periods of time. Then we have to take difficult tests. School can be boring and stressful, but we have not choice, but to put up with it, in order to learn.
Sen. McCain, knew torture, but he offers us lessons about it.
We can look for ways to minimize torturous experiences, and to gain strength from the frustration.
It is said that there is no gain without some pain.
Thank you, John McCain for inspiring us to carry on, for success...
================================================
2
@Harry Pearle
With all due respect, this comment shows that you don't have a clue what Senator McCain was trying to teach us about the evils of torture.
I've tried three times to come up with a rebuttal to this comment, Harry, but words fail. Torture is useful as a teaching tool, kinda like having to sit still for 20 minutes? I really really hope you do not have children.
3
@Harry Pearle, in a world full of random injustice, one can at least not do to others what one doesn't like done to oneself.
3
John McCain is an eagle.
(donald trump is a pigeon.)
5
I say a stool pigeon.
1
McCain has one big black spot on his record.
He never met a war he did not like including Vietnam and Iraq 2, two of the biggest foreign policy blunders in our history.
However, he stand against torture, standing up to the ego maniac demagogue Trump, his ability to work across the isle, putting country over ideology makes him look like Lincoln compared to Trump.
6
Vietnamese medieval torture methods were FAR worse than waterboarding.
3
I don't think torture is ever justified.
14
John McCain's stand against torture was a call to national morality, except when it was politically expedient to vote otherwise.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/us/politics/17torture.html
2
Thanks for this reminder of John McCain's opposition to Gina Haspel as CIA Director. McCain proved that we're better than this official sanction of 'cruel and unusual punishment,' which is in fact banned by our Constitution.
9
For Trump and his bottom-class ilk, torture does in fact work: It makes the torturer feel good.
10
One gains reliable information by winning trust. Torture defeats the whole exercise.
8
All civilized people are against torture. Enhanced interrogation led to the capture of Bin Laden. Full stop. Drop the mike.
@Steve
"Enhanced interrogation led to the capture of Bin Laden."
There's absolutely no evidence supporting this statement.
6
@Brad Blumenstock wrong. Waterboarding led abu ahmed al-kuwati to give up the name of Bin Laden's courier...look it up.
"If you can do it, it ain't bragging." Dizzy Dean
John McCain endured years of brutal physical and mental torture. He said torture does not work. Let's call it The McCain Corollary.
5
in the wake of WWII Geneva treaty was the law of the land whenever torture were reported.
Nobody can coceived this reality better than McCain in our recent history, Dick hemey and Rumsfield notoriety was running rampant post 9/11 years, only voice was resonating in this moral issue belong to Mc.Cain.
A man/woman cannot be great with a great wisdom, suffering and wide reaching moral standing. Chickenhawks, Awols, luck ones never understand what theirr own kind suffering in Americans adversaries. Did you remeber the treatment of Japanese army's American POWs.
This is a moral integrity issue , McCain has the supreme ownership.
4
Torture is relative. It won't be long before the President uses the 'T' word to describe the Mueller investigation. He must fell like hes's being waterboarded.
2
@Richard Mclaughlin--------Well, Mr. Mclaughlin, we shouldn't forget that all but the best humans do deceive themselves and then forcefully try to graft their baseless, ugly deceptions on others. Trump gives us a perfect example of this.
On the other hand, John McCain was one of the best humans, despite his flaws.
I hope it is less "about who we are" and a lot more "about who we aspire to be". Who we are lead us to where we are, torturers, racists, homophobia, xenophobes etc. But an honest long hard look in the mirror can lead to a much greater America.
3
Mr. McCain could not have taught us about the torture we are being subjected to by our current federal "officials".
1
Odd that Senator McCain would have George W, the commander in Chief whose administration broke with this country's history of adherence to the Geneva Convention and approved torture and extraordinary endition, speak at his funeral.
8
Depressing read. With John McCain gone, where are the voices of decency going to come from? Certainly not the GOP or Wall Street. Not the churches who praise the mad clown king. Not a government cowering to the unhinged right wingnuts on the Supreme Court.
6
@kirk-----------------Kirk, the voices of decency must come from us! It's time.
2
"You will say something like, ‘Among us the judicial procedures are different,’ or ‘With us the accused is questioned before the verdict,’ or ‘We had torture only in the Middle Ages.’ For you these observations appear as correct as they are self-evident—innocent remarks which do not impugn my procedure..."
--from The Penal Colony, Franz Kafka
1
The GOP does not listen or hear anything about torture and civility in war. They might as well be a stump or a single cell organism, mostly. John McCain would have been a good democrat had he been a dove. No, he was hawkish and was a proponent of eye popping military budgets of enormous waste. Otherwise, he allowed crazy GOP orthodoxy to consume his politics and now, sadly dies, and authoritarian idiots are in control.
4
McCAin was subject to real torture which inflicted physical pain and damage. He was permanently physically damaged by the North Vietnamese, unlike the enhanced interrogation used by the CIA which wet somebody's face, inflicted no pain nor physical damage. Equating the two different actions is a complete disservice to those who suffered through real torture and lived their entire life with the results. As I remember the NYT never objected to real torture in the 1970s as it supported the North Vietnamese.
1
@James
I doubt the public knows the full extent of torture that occured (occurs?) at black ops sites.
5
@James
Only someone who has turned a blind eye to reality could make this comment.
6
His most redeeming and American quality was that he was mostly genuinely honest about himself including admitting to being wrong when he could see it.
He should have been advocating the arrest and trial of the entire Bush Admin and then large parts of the Obama admin for their violations of law and human dignity to assuage an itch based on a fantasy they created to unleash their basest racist desires. I'm not sure how Obama convinced himself he was doing the right thing by going along with the mentioned psychopaths.
Just because they are criticizing El Trumpo does not rehabilitate them for their traitorous depraved abuse of the authority we granted them which has made us and the world less safe.
One of the comments here states that torturing prisoners of war is morally wrong. I'd like to add that war is also morally wrong. War is a game of politics and power that old men play for personal gain but without any personal sacrifice. The men who start wars never send their own sons into combat...
7
@Humble Beast----------------Hmmmm. What about McCain who was, so to speak, sent into war by his father and grandfather? What about Teddy Rooseveldt, who lost two sons in WWI?
If we develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons that tortuously kill millions of noncombatants, why do we shy from using torture? All effective methods of interrogation should be available for use, just like any method of defense.
@Chris
Torture is not an effective method of interrogation. There is simply no evidence that supports it's efficacy.
5
@Chris-----------------------"If we develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons that tortuously kill millions of noncombatants, why do we shy from using torture."
Ah, don't you see, Chris, we must shy from using ALL of the above. Otherwise, we remain about 1/32 inch above our vicious cousins--the Chimpanzees. We are, in fact, Chimpanzees, squared, as I think things.
1
If McCain has a legacy, it's here, with this stance. But like so much else about his career, even this admirable position requires qualification. Because few Senators have ever been as ardent as McCain when it comes to sending young men and women to war. It seems that he was fine with the destruction of American bodies, so long as it didn't occur in captivity.
4
Torture is ALWAYS wrong. Under any circumstance, under any condition, from any hand, even God's. Torture is wrong! If you wouldn't want it done to you, don't do it to anyone else!
9
@Aries
That sounds suspiciously like a rational argument. That is verboten in GOP America.
2
"This is a moral debate. It is about who we are.”
McCain's campaign against torture, given the authority he brought to the subject, was notable and worthy of the praise it has received. But as to its contribution to the moral debate surrounding America's wars, the issue of torture was and is only a small part of the brutality on civilians that all sides in war inflict, including America.
"Why do we ignore the civilians killed in American wars?" by John Tirman (Washington Post, January 6, 2012) explores the reality of the little interest or concern Americans show towards civilian deaths inflicted by Americans, regardless of intention, dating back to the Indian wars of our founding. We even coined the dehumanizing term "collateral damage" to describe it.
As has been noted by others over history, inflicting brutality on individuals that we can identify with is properly seen by many for the crime it is, but the killing of faceless civilians, particularly from the air, is usually presented as a statistic.
John McCain, to his credit, understood that.
7
There is a lot being written about Senator McCain, most in praise and some critical. For me the most important part of his legacy is how is come home from his torture in Vietnam with his humanity and dignity in tact. He did not seek revenge and on this one human rights issue he was strong. I have long been a volunteer for a torture survivor organization called TASSC, Torture Abolition and Survivors Support Coalition. First founded by a US nun who was a torture survivor in Guatemala Sister Dianna Ortiz TASSC gives voice to many survivors stories. John McCain would have been welcome there and they admire him for his stand.
He understood that torture is both immoral and ineffective. It debases those who practice it, in his case the North Vietnamese communist government. I personally opposed our participation int that war and the bombing of Hanoi. Nothing justifies torture, it is just mindless cruelty.
Sister Dianna was a young Ursuline Catholic sister who was teaching kindergarten to Mayan children in the Highlands of Guatemala when she was kidnapped by security forces and tortured. Mr McCain was a Navy pilot who served in a war. Suffice it to say that the two are dramatically different but both understood (she still understands) the horror of torture.
The debate truly is about who we are.
God speed John McCain.
13
Can you picture Trump doing what John McCain did? Hardly. A person who cannot recognize the good in someone else is not a good person at all.
5
The head of the prison in Hanoi that held John McCain claims he quickly identified himself as the son of the commander of the 7th Fleet. Because they knew they had an important prisoner, he said they did what they could to mend his bones broken by the plane crash and to make sure he stayed in good health. That is not to say he did not suffer from his imprisonment, but the Vietnamese tell a completely different story. They also recognize thankfully his important role in ending the U.S. Embargo against Vietnam so avoid any debate over his treatment.
2
@Tom Miller
The men in the prison with him confirmed what was done to him.
5
I did not agree with any of his republican policies but I certainly agreed on this one. Torture is a war crime and serves no one. McCain was a POW and understood why torture was/is illegal. Cheney and Bush understood nothing about it. Many republicans in congress today are just as ignorant and have no problem breaking laws, domestic or int'l. They have no morals, honor or integrity.
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@kay
So is rape, mutilation and murder of innocent women and children by those warrior males of BOTH sides. Torture and rape of the vulnerable are considered by men to be the spoils of war, in addition to the acquisition of land and power. Perhaps only when more women run nations - and religions - will the planet finally see some humanity in the human species.
3
As a young boy in the early '60's, the projector films in our grade school "Assemblies" showed corny films of our colonial, civil war and modern heroes. Becoming a lawyer years later, I was never so proud of our Constitution and Amendments, however flawed it's founders. Here, at the very least, was a vision for justice, equality and -yes- morality. The only person I've known that can stand in the shoes of those old heroes has just died. Where have you gone, John McCain, our nation turns it's lonely eyes to you.
5
John McCain taught us to dodge the military draft and evade military service so that we will not get captured and tortured. McCain taught us how to pretend to be brave, honorable and patriotic by rising to sing the national anthem and salute the flag at sporting events. Since 9/11/01 a mere 0.75 % of Americans have volunteered to wear the military uniform of any American armed force.
What George W. Bush taught us about torture is that we are much worse than our enemies who proudly proclaim their approval and support for torture. While America hypocritically condemns and judges torture as illegal and immoral only when Americans are the victims. If we adopt the policies and practices of our putative foes regarding torture then their is nothing left to fight for or against.
It should come as little surprise that too many Americans still believe the myth that "torture" is somehow effective. These same people still maintain that capital punishment is also highly effective in keeping the murder rate down.
8
@Michael Kelly I disagree. Torture and capital punishment are two completely different issues. Torture is not intended to deter or counter recidivism, which are the pragmatic arguments for the death penalty.
I would argue that given today's legal climate, the death penalty is impractical in the US.
Very interesting man and it's good to read a article about him.
I've watched the video, shown on CBS-News. It tells more about torture than 1000 other interviews or 100.000 pages of academic studies. John McCain in his pain and despair, looks like an American hero. How weakness shown, may make a man looking stronger. A tough guy,
2
It is unconscionable that there is even a debate about torture in this country.
It is a despicable, indefensible, practice that wreaks unspeakable pain and humiliation on its victims and makes monsters of the perpetrators, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
It is to John McCain's lasting credit that he stood against torture even to the end of his life when he openly opposed Gina Haspel's nomination as director of the CIA.
And it is to this country's lasting shame, to the shame of all who acquiesced to it, that torture was ever conducted; that it continues to be enabled and condoned; that its shadow still sits at the head of the CIA.
The failure of the United States to respond to the 9/11 attack with the courage of what should have been our convictions, and instead, by letting fear and revenge guide our actions, was not inevitable; John McCain's life is a testament to the ability of human beings to maintain our humanity, even after having been subjected to the worst cruellty that human beings can inflict on each other.
No, it was a choice, a choice that the U.S. did not have to make, but did. A choice that we are still making, as our government engages in the reprehensible practice of inflicting the cruelty of separating children from their families at the border and locking them in cages.
Let us now, finally, at the time of John McCain's passing, resolve to reverse that choice - let us repudiate torture completely and reclaim our country's moral compass.
11
"My deepest sympathies and respect go out to the family of Senator John McCain. Our hearts and prayers are with you."
Author Known
1
Whether or not it is something we should practice, as a people, it is worth considering why we would feel we the need.
McCain did teach us something about torture; that it works. True story; he did sign. It is also worth considering, that his position against torture was influenced by the fact that it forced him to surrender his will. Understandable; he would have a reason most of us do not.
The McCain's are admirable, as anyone ever moved by amber waves feels. But men and women willing to sacrifice so much of their lives - as they have; surely see the conflict in hate me, imprison me, blow my body apart, kill me, just don't torture me. Further conflicting, when considering the inhumanity of torture played a part in sending him to the Senate. Not sympathy over being tortured, but surrendering to it allowed him to return. Would the Vietnamese have been reluctant to kill an Admirals son, as opposed to an enlisted man? Another conflict worth considering, in that conflict. They sought poker leverage, and the Progressives folded on a call.
@Jabin
How, exactly, do you think torture "worked" in McCain's case?
2
Please speak to the failure of the trump White House to honor John McCain with lowered flags. The loss of basic civility in our political process is evident today as it was at the 1968 democratic national convention.
Obviously the White House is the ‘people’s’ house not trump’s. His continued self-serving disrespect for all the electorate and tarnishing of our collective American brand must be reprimanded and reversed.
Maybe it will take this callous insult to a hero senator to end our collective torture by this undignified unqualified imposture and crater his presidency and drain the trump swamp. Then maybe we can all start cleaning up the aftermath.
36
John McCain constantly reminded us that torture is inherently immoral. Unfortunately, John McCain was not Vice-President during the Bush Administration, Dick Cheney was. Cheney was the greatest champion of the Torture Program, meaning it was a Bush Administration program, not just a CIA program. Sadly, despite McCain's best efforts against torture throughout his career, by the time the 2014 report on the Torture Program was released irreparable damage was done. Trump can so quickly dismember institutions like NATO in large part because of the Torture Program. Central to liberal democracy flourishing was an adherence to a universal rule of law. NATO and the EU rested on the rule of law and it stabilized North America and Europe. Adherence to the rule of law was also seen as a primary means of dissuading aggression by Germany after two world wars. However, international laws prohibiting outrages like torture necessarily constrained all nations, including the US. Put aside the moral arguments McCain rightly made against torture and you are still left with the argument he made against it on national security grounds. The American torture program shattered International law, including North American and European agreements on core civil rights protections. These laws protected individuals, but also protected the foundations of democracies as well. In instituting the Torture Program the Bush Administration decimated the very foundations of the North American-European order.
14
Thank you for this - very thoughtful and illuminates his lasting gift to America: rebuking torture from the best kind of witness, a survivor. I hope American’s can remember this lesson in the absence of his voice.
16
Like many Americans, I honor Mr McCain for his service and sacrifice and moments of honor. But imagine if in 2004, the Senator denounced the Bush administration for their torture, corruption and lies (which is the position he clearly personally held) and supported Kerry for President for the sake of unity and decency. He might have changed history. He would not have ever been the Republican nominee, but would have been a second Henry Clay-another statesman who never made President but influenced our nation's history.
14
@Sage613
Never voted GOP in my life but John Kerry would've been a terrible president - and his running mate, Sen. John Edwards, proved himself to be a unquestioned moral coward. The only positive would've been a potential better 2008 outcome. And that would've shaken up the 2012 and 2016 elections, as well.
Even if people can't appreciate the moral reasons for rejecting torture, they should understand a practical one: embracing the practice means accepting that it will be used against our own military personnel when they are taken.
52
If the best we can say about a US Senator is that he demonstrated a moral opposition to torture, then our standards cannot fall much lower before going right into the ground.
Of course, considering that he was a Republican, he was head and shoulders above his party on that issue.
7
@Duane McPherson
This article focused on but one aspect of John McCain's tenure in the Senate.
3
With all the negative news thats been going on for the last 2 years, we tend to forget that which happened under President George W. Bush's Administration. And we shouldn't.
Reminders like this opinion article are important. We started a preemptive war under false pretenses, tortured individuals, killed thousands of our soldiers and 100's of thousands of Iraqi's.
Thank you for writing this Mr. Welch.
40
This column should be the topic of discussion for every high school social studies/civics class in America.
It asks two simple but powerful questions, first, is torture immoral, and second, should American officials lie to the American people?
The courage that it takes to stand alone against your fellow Senators when they need to be confronted is admirable, and the sign of a true leader.
War is the enemy, and we could defeat it in a generation if we truly wanted to, by installing the rule of law internationally.
Hugh
19
The country's moral collapse under the GW Bush administration was, in some ways, even greater than its collapse under Trump. At least now the press is giving some push back against the depravity. But, apparently because Bush was an "establishment" Republican, who could do a half-convincing imitation of a thinking adult, the media submitted to him by refusing to use the word "torture" and pretending there was a legitimate argument for using it.
36
I'm glad to see this. It's important to remember that Gina Haspel was approved as CIA chief even with John McCain's statement. Although it may not have been realistic to ask her to fully repudiate the torture program--this would have been its own form of too-convenient ad hoc accommodation--her placement in the top post is a de facto endorsement of the policy, billboard advertising of ugliness and ignorance. That "some folks got tortured," as President Obama put it, is bad enough, but to signal our national approval of it (when necessary) is a very significant loss.
21
McCain's repudiation of torture was consistent with his views on normalizing relations with Vietnam. The most effective strategy for advancement of government or military policy is the mind, using the boundless power of imagination, creativeness and, yes, when required, compassion. Credible intelligence gathering doesn't depend on the rack and pillory. McCain understood this.
14
Mr. Welch says Americans are blasé about our use of torture. I'm sure not, no one I know is. I've never seen it proven that anything but a small minority believe we should continue such cruelty. It'd be a fine way to honor John McCain, to put a stop to harming other people in our name. Can we?
14
If torture were really about learning information, there'd be an argument for it. It would be an immoral argument, but an argument.
But most likely torture, like the death penalty, is more an act of revenge, of frontier justice. You hit us, we hit back, harder. And that leaves it with no argument, moral or immoral.
Once we really start believing that the end justifies the means, and once we really start believing the lies we spin to profit ourselves, we are sunk. I am pretty sure we are sunk.
McCain, who suffered torture for years, knew of what he spoke. He never told us fairy tales that we wanted to hear, that we could keep ourselves safe as long as we got our prisoners to tell all, by any means. McCain knew that scenario was out of a movie script and not reality. I hope we can sit back and listen to his words.
45
@Cathy
Soldiers torturing each other in war bears no similarity to the many benefits of generational public safety to ridding the world of deviant psychopath criminals who choose to wreck havoc on defenseless innocents.
It isn't fatalistic to say that we will be reading about torture for years to come. As long as there are wars and dictators, there will be torture.
America should lead by example and do all it can bring torture to a halt. John McCain speaks very well for us all.
22
I get that John McCain stood up at the right moment, and a tough one for a Republican against torture. But I resent a headline telling me that he taught "us" about torture. What he taught is something that nearly everyone knows; Inside government, it was supported by the kinds of power-driven, marginally sane people who so often find their way into positions of authority. Outside of government, those who closed their eyes or cheered the torturers on did so out of fear, not because they never knew or somehow forgot that it is plainly wrong. That's why they call it terrorism, and our response will be viewed with shame in history.
75
@tony zito It wasn't just fear, it was for vengeance.
2
@tony zito
One hopes that same history will view Saudi Arabia and Islam with even more shame.
1
Bless John McCain's soul. He was essentially the perfect American; somebody you could disagree with yet someone who had the whole of the country and in turn the entire world's welfare in mind and heart.
911 was a test of the national character and soul and I hate to report that so many of us failed this test. Look at the world now. We were like a student would failed a driver's test and were then handed the keys to a faulty unsafe vehicle while drunk. A lot of damage has occurred.
I haven't written a comment in a while but this man's life, spirit and passing has stirred me to do so again.
I will miss this infuriating and wonderful Senator; a man like no other, now that he has left our national family.
Have a great journey, John, on your way to that next plateau.
18
A nation can be judged by the way it treats its prisoners of war. I would also like to add what my mother always said: two wrongs don't make a right.
40
If there is one thing that Republicans stand for, it's a complete disregard for human welfare. Torture is the penultimate apex in that inhumanity.
They cut funding for schools, healthcare, social services of any kind with glee. They drop bombs on civilians with gusto. Or, they never hesitate to support others who drop the bombs for them. Republicans are tough, tough, tough.
Torture is the complete dehumanization of politics. Republicans support it because their politics is based on dehumanization. Freedom to them is getting shot at the grocery store or dropping dead from disease on the sidewalk. Freedom is the absence of labor laws. Each should negotiate their own conditions. Not too many employers will go along with that.
John McCain knew better because he was tortured. His experience of inhumanity showed him that it should never occur. It showed him that being inhuman is never a path toward humanity.
Republicans will have none of it. They are tough, tough, tough. No they aren't. John McCain was tough. What they call toughness is callous ruthlessness employed to get whatever they want. Trump is their prime example. They love him. Trump loves torture. Those that embrace torture have no humanity. Morality? What's that? To the Republicans, morality is just another word for profits and profits can be obtained in any way possible. Morality is too restrictive for them.
110
Thank you. Excellently stated.
1
Bruce, you try so hard to split American society. What will happen if we expose who you really are?
@Bruce Rozenblit
Your contention is that Democrat politicians have never done any of those things?
1
We never treated prisoners of war as a general matter within galaxies as badly as our adversaries treated our own – with some purposeful if highly questionable exceptions, such as Vietnam’s Phoenix Program and anecdotal remembrances of Korea and WWII – which are fading as participants die. We always accepted that we were different from those adversaries in this regard, and almost always played by honorable rules we had set for ourselves.
The standard for torture was never set by Americans but by enemies: waterboarding may be wrong, but it’s not the same as pulling out fingernails, breaking bones, applying electrical shocks, severing limbs or the abominations that were committed on John McCain. To condemn us by the same “torture” metric used to condemn others is an unbalanced and context-free argument.
What McCain taught us about “torture” is that we must set a rigid standard for what it is, and that we should avoid it as dishonorable in almost all instances. What the Vietcong did to McCain was patently barbaric because it was gratuitous: nothing of any real value could have been gotten by whatever means from a junior officer whose warplane was shot down.
However, “renditions”, when responsibly supervised (which they MUST be), are defensible means of fighting adversaries who wear no uniforms, obey no generally accepted rules of warfare and whose sole purpose is murder of innocents and destabilization of our societies. Those who believe differently are simply naïve.
2
@Richard Luettgen The hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed by the U.S. military may beg to differ with your assessment. But I am probably just "naive."
It's easy to write what you do when you live in the U.S. and not Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Vietnam (back in the '60's), Cambodia, Laos, etc. But my guess is you planned to be born in the U.S. all along, didn't you.
64
@Richard Luettgen Careful. There may be a Great Rendition in the Sky waiting for some of us.
15
@ScottW
Several problems with your counterpoint -
1. Richard Luettgen is referring to treatment of POWs. This is very different than civilian casualties during military operations.
2. Your outrage at his statement is a pathos arguement that doesn't rationally counter any of Richard Luettgens points (probably why you got 20+ likes)
3. It seems like you just want to rage against the US government, rather than acutally care about the wellbeing of people in any of these countries. In Afghanistan for instance the Taliban's indiscriminate use of IEDs accounted for 50% more civilian casualties that American bombings. Irrelevant deaths because they werent killed by American bombs? Additionally the brutalization of the local populace that did not support thier position by Taliban and Viet Cong forces constituted torture not against enemy combatants, but innocent civilians to include children.
In memory of John McCain, a little piece of truth.
What is a key difference between a weak and strong individual?
The weak ones always believe they had to do something.
The strong humans know that they have a choice and make a move based on their system of values.
The brave ones always make their decisions personally, never let the others do it for them.
It does not a priori mean they did the right choice, but they believe in it and have the courage to stand behind it and face the crowd.
19
Endless war is also a "moral debate" and "about who we are." It has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.
And Sen. McCain never met a war he did not support. Even to the end with supporting Saudi Arabia's killing of innocent civilians in Yemen--with U.S. support.
Truth often seems to vanish when someone dies (or leaves office ala George Bush).
30
@ScottW,
Yes, and I don't forget his chants of "Bomb, bomb, bomb-bomb Iran", to the tune of a Beach Boys song, as if it were fun and games.
3
Mr. Welch, Thanks for bringing this illuminating perspective and little-remembered aspect of Senator McCain's values to light. We should all take time to absorb what you've written as we move forward ....
18
Torturing prisoners is not only morally wrong, it is a corrosive which indiscriminately eats away at the deeper sinews of civilization.
Serving as I did as a physician in the US Navy, my ID card listed me in a different Geneva convention classification from my shipmates. If captured, I was to be interned but not imprisoned and my job would remain to care for them during our confinement. The same status is granted to Navy corpsmen who would work with me in the same effort. This was one of the bargains codified in the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC).
I was both saddened and concerned to hear a corpsman tell of his experiences in war in Iraq while talking with his mates during some downtime in our stateside clinic.
When assigned to a front line unit, the corpsmen carry the same weapons as other troops so they're not identifiable to an enemy. If they could, an enemy would kill the medic, then the radioman, then the leader of an opposing force to cripple their opponent's will and ability to fight.
The corpsman told his shipmates that day about being the first one through the door of a house during a raid. To me, this was a breach of his status as a non-combatant and an act in contravention to his Geneva status and the LOAC.
I expressed my concern to my superiors and also to the local JAGs as I thought this could threaten the Navy. I was more concerned when I was told this was not unusual.
If you cede torture, giving up more and more is easier. And there's the pity.
97
It appears, based on the facts presented in the article, that torture is more about revenge and punishment than acquiring useful information.
80
The US crosses the line all the time in war as well. There are supposed to be ethics in war. That sounds strange. How can aggression be ethical? Lines are supposed to exist, but they are quite blurry.
10
After 9/11 we set aside our moral compass out of fear; we convinced ourselves that the other side was "far worse" than we were so as to justify our behavior. We have lost sight of ourselves as a nation intent upon being a moral leader and role model for the world, instead sinking to judging our behavior by the lowest common denominator ('well, they do it, so why shouldn't we'). We have, thus, become the followers of thugs and tyrants.
Torturing our prisoners continues to put our men & women in uniform at enhanced risk while gaining little that is useful in the process. We used to be better than this - we can be again, but not until we regain our moral footing.
134
@Anne-Marie Hislop
Coincidentally, this weekend I watched "Shock and Awe" Rob Reiner's brilliant film chronicling the story of the government's fabrication which lead us to the war in Iraq. The details are chilling. Not to miss.
2
I believe our moral compass went askew in Vietnam (“Bomb them back to The Stone Age.”) and that this experience allowed us to seek out opportunities to prove we were dominant including rendition and torture.
3
We used to be better than this? You have no idea what you’re talking about here. Have you seen napalm flame throwers? Is it not torture to be burned alive like that? Let alone all the other horrible things that have happened in battle. Get a clue...war is hell.
Those who know the uses of torture tell us it's effective only for extracting confessions, genuine or not.
But then those who know war tell us not to rush into another one, and yet see what our armchair swashbucklers do -- always with the support of a majority of the public.
Instead of listening soberly to the voices of experience, we simply wait for those voices to become stilled.
65
@Longestaffe-Exactly, never underestimate the ability of the public to make the same mistake over and over.
It is the nature of the beast.
19