I am confused. At one point in the article, the original stated goal of the Discovery program was to help "disadvantaged" students. At another, the goal is to "load Black and Hispanic students" into the specialized high schools. Which is it?
10
In a world where being member of an URM is considered "hook" to get into one of the elite colleges, why is anyone surprised? We are basically telling black and brown kids they do not have to be as good, do not have to meet the same benchmarks as white and Asian kids in order to win. Edward Blum's lawsuit at Harvard comes to mind.
11
Affirmative action is never going to be accepted in a truly diverse society. Discrimination for a "good reason" is still discrimination.
12
Both of my children went to Stuyvesant and they are appalled at the suggestion of changing the admissions criteria. They adamantly feel the SHSAT is the most objective way to select students based purely on academic merit. As their parent, I know how hard they worked to prepare for the SHSAT, and how much harder they worked to succeed in high school.
Specialized high schools are rigorous, and my husband and I helped our children when we could, or we got then extra help if they needed it. My children also flourished because they had attended excellent public middle schools.
Don't place students in an environment where they might not have the necessary tools and support to not only survive but shine. Offer academic intervention and acceleration earlier so those who truly deserve a seat can get in on their own.
16
So if this goes through, how low would the SHSAT score go for those 20%? Has anyone worked the numbers from recent years? 450? 400?
8
Bill diBlasio reminds me of his fellow Democrat George Wallace standing at the schoolhouse door to keep students out because he doesn’t like the color of their skin. Affirmative action today, affirmative action tomorrow, affirmative action forever. Like George Wallace, Di Blasio judging kids as vicars of an ethnic group rather than as individuals belongs in the dustbin of history.
17
The public library in Flushing, Queens which is a majority Asian immigrant neighborhood, is the most used library the U.S. This should tell you something.
27
Just three years ago, I graduated from my zone school in Woodside. Now admittedly, this was not the best school in the NYC. But I saw so many student with the potential and capabilities of doing well in these specialized high school; however, what separated them from being from these specialized student was their inability to afford top tutoring programs that essentially prepares them.
I understand that lowering the score is unheard of for the specialized high school; but we only limit ourself from thinking these specialized high school are the only great schools throughout NYC. I went to Bryant High School, and I made the best out of my situation. We need to stop acting like the specialized high school is a program that will help you get to 1% cause it’s not.
6
@Justin
I find it hard to believe you would know what it would take to get into one of these elite schools when you went to a zoned school.
It is harder to think you would know that taking a prep class would get you into these elite institutions when you have not taken any of those classes.
I do agree with your last paragraph.
I wasn't one of the smartest in my school.
There were many smarter than me.
Many of these went on to ivy league colleges.
If the reason you should go to one of these elite high schools is because you want to get into a elite college
then you would be wrong because you can get to a elite college from other schools.
Personally I see no need for most of these elite schools.
Instead of having a school dedicated to these very bright students graduate them at a younger age making it possible for them to get into college instead of staying in high school.
What happens to 8th graders who score high enough on the test to be admitted, but then lose their spots to Discovery students? Does the mayor explain this to them via the logic of social justice and diversity?
26
This action by the De Blasio administration is a disgrace. The City already offers tutoring programs for the specialized test for free and if there are kids who are being denied this tutoring then the tutoring program should be expanded
As many have eloquently written over the past few months , many of the students that go to the specialized high schools come from poor backgrounds. Moreover, why should spots at the specialized schools be taken from kids from more affluent backgrounds. The families of those kids pay a lot in taxes to live in a City which has become increasingly dirty and ridden with homelessness and a broken down transit system. These families are not from the so called one percent that Progressives carry on about as most of those kids go to private schools.
Finally, for journalistic balance--something unfortunately there is less and less of at the NYT--why doesn't the NYT also profile a student who would lose their spot in a specialized school as a result of this policy change. Chances are if the journalists are being fair, such a kid would be the child of immigrants, has been a good student and views the specialized schools as their path to the American dream.
42
Bring back tracking in elementary and middle schools. These honor/advanced classes are a way to separate out academically talented kids early and help prepare them for the SHSAT. This was standard 25 years ago when there were sizable percentages of students of color at these high schools with competitive entrance exams. Misguided idealogy took away tracking and the idea prevailed that good students would help the struggling ones in an inclusive classroom. It's not the case, it just leaves the smart kids bored and there's no space for them to be stretched.
22
This color-blind test is open to all takers, and the fact that Caucasians are a distinct minority in these schools belies the claims of racial discrimination. There is no equivalent of a racist Southern Governor standing in the doorway of these schools barring any group because of the color of their skin. Only the hurdles of math, science, and language skills in the SHSAT test "stand in the doorway". They say equally to all: come, compete, and try your best to make the cut. That is the American way - the just and equitable way.
The test is an accurate measure of who will be best able to take advantage of these schools. For as their graduation and college admission rates show, the test successfully weeds out those who will likely fail in their rigorous & difficult learning environment, a failure which would not only waste precious resources, but would also scar these students with feelings of inadequacy and defeat at a crucial juncture in their lives.
Parents want the best for their children, of course. But instead of pitting one group against another, the best way to do that is to preserve and expand some of the finest public secondary educational institutions that we have in this city. Don't lower the standards - raise the scores of applicants instead.
The number of specialized high schools should also be increased, and free or subsidized test preparation should be provided to everyone who plans to take the test.
25
Merit, merit, merit. Not the color of your skin.
20
I strongly suspect that all the people defending the current system would be angrily protesting if those specialized high schools decided that only the students with the top 20% SHSAT scores at each specialized high school would be allowed to take any honors or AP classes during their 4 years. At Bronx Science or Stuy, any student with an SHSAT score under 610 would be forever banned from advanced or honors classes because their lower SHSAT score proved they didn't belong in those classes, period. They are banned for 4 years.
I can imagine the outcry from the very same people posting that the SHSAT score should be the gold standard.
Mayor de Blasio's DOE should just order all placement in classes to be made based on the SHSAT score alone. Then the very same people claiming the test is so perfect would be ordering de Blasio not to put so much weight on this flawed single day's test.
3
Just FYI, placement of freshmen in honors geometry and AP history at Bronx Science is done based on the SHSAT score (as well regents score for geometry) - I haven't heard any parents protest. I didn't.
9
I was a poor immigrant kid that went to Tech in the 80’s and graduated in the top 5%. I recognize the importance of both opportunity and education. Creating opportunity for some to the detriment of others doesn’t solve a problem, it just moves it to another group and exacerbates the problem.
The challenge is to build an educational system in which there is real opportunity for all academic levels. The proposed quota system only dilutes the top of the talent pool and takes opportunities away from roughly 20% of the brightest in our city. This is not to say that opportunities should not be made for those that are just below the threshold set for the “specialized” high schools. But it does mean we should maintain pure academic standards of excellence and reward for achievement. If we measure academic excellence with a bent ruler, the results will be a disservice to every student in the public school system and a disincentive to excel.
The challenge is not met by lowering the top to raise the bottom. The way to raise the bottom is to create better schools across the spectrum of academic abilities and to challenge all students to perform at their peak.
26
I know you! And agree.
All this is well and good, but I dont really see how it works unless they can somehow throw out all the white and Asian kids who scored just a bit higher than the Discovery kids. I mean, is this saying that a kid could get a 550 or whatever and get into the best school but NOT recieve admission because of the need to have Discovery kids be 20% of the incoming class? Then they get into the next school down the list. That is fine until you get to the last best school, the Latin School.
Essentially what the Discovery program will end up doing it taking the kids who would have gotten into the Latin school and basically telling them that they are the ones that will pay for the white and Asian priviledge of all white and Asian people in NYC. They get their futures cut short and hopefully their priviledge will bridge that gap, and the kids just below the Latin school will get sprinkled through all the specialized schools.
Everyone else just gets shoved down a level to pay for the color of their skin, but those kids who would have made it into Latin but end up in some non-specialized high school no one cares about are the ones who really pay.
Is there just a way to get better education to all New York children, or is the only way to success these 8 schools? It all seems kind of like bringing a knife to a gun fight to me.
10
I will never stop being amazed at wealthy, White people who think kids of color and kids living in poverty don't deserve help to get an excellent education while also believing that their kids "earned" their scores despite thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of test prep. The real "social engineering" is the last five hundred years of White supremacy that got us to this point.
11
@Raul Duke Since you are in Virginia, let me enlighten you - 2/3rds of the kids in these schools are the children of Chinese, Korean, Indian, and (occasionally) Russian immigrants. Sure, historical racism has caused terrible inequities, but you are just wrong to reflexively say that this situation is all because of white oppression. It's because these immigrant kids strive to excel.
13
These schools are majority Asian American and not white. Everything you wrote is irrelevant. Also, by the way, VERY few people spend "thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours" on test prep. Many just buy a $25 book, some splurge for a $900 course.
11
@Raul Duke
You might not realize this in Virginia. There is absolutely no need to spend thousands of dollars to prepare for the SHSAT. There are free practice materials available from the DOE and from the public library. There are inexpensive online prep materials (we spent less than $100 for a yearlong subscription) and $15 books on Amazon, plus free lessons in the various topics on Khan Academy. Many middle schools offer free prep classes to their students, as well. This myth of "it's all because they can afford costly, fancy prep" is a rationalization and excuse.
9
The numbers have been purposely elevated to show the huge damage that will be done to these children who simply cannot survive in the super-competitive environment. How cruel. We have a million students who need better schools and solely for cosmetic purposes a few hundred or perhaps one hundred have been thrown to the sharks. And the bad schools persist. But this is free....
5
This is a mistake. My sister and I were poor, but academically gifted. Our parents were not high school graduates. At the parochial school that I attended in grades 1-5, there were 60 kids (you read that right) in each class.
Selective NYC public school programs allowed us to reach our full potential. Despite our disadvantages, we tested into selective programs. I was accepted to Hunter middle school, although my parents decided (big mistake) that the over one-hour commute would be too arduous for a ten year-old, and I was enrolled instead in a “special progress” program. My sister followed the same path. We qualified despite our lack privilege, as do hundreds of applicants each year.
Including kids who do not make the cut disadvantages both those students, and the qualified kids who rely on such programs to advance to top colleges. You are, in effect, dumbing those programs down. The kids who are admitted may be bright, but they are not the most qualified applicants.
If there are too few children of color at the top schools - and there are - the answer is better prepared students. Intervene early to develop students’ skills, including their test-taking strategies. (Real thinking skills, by the way. Law school applicants take LSAT prep courses; should we eliminate the LSAT because such courses can raise scores?)
We are undermining elite schools, because we don’t like what they tell us about our public schools and our culture - and that’s just wrong, wrong, wrong.
34
If the mayor wants to cut kids from the elite schools, why not use a ratio of incomes to scores?
You scored 600, and your family income per person is $60,000 - you lose 40 points - your score is now 560.
You scored 530, and your income per person is $7,000 - you gain 40 points - your score is now 570.
Smart kid, poor family? Give 'em a boost.
Smart kid, rich family? Meh.
It's time to stop using race as a criteria for favoritism in this country.
6
@Michael H.
At first I thought you were making a joke... Well, it's not much crazier than what de Blasio is proposing.
De Blasio is playing to his base and the Times, by promoting this lack-luster idea idea, is indulging in reparations as usual (their new usual).
Won't the Discovery kids be tainted as they enter the "elite" schools? The whiff of affirmative action will be strong and lingering. It's a bad solution.
3
This is a well-intentioned but misguided effort
As a graduate of Bronx Science I can attest to the fact that some of those who, like me, scored well enough to be admitted struggle with the curriculum.
A star student junior high school, I went into high school confident that my good study practices and apparent intelligence would see me through.
By the first Christmas break, it was obvious that my dream of becoming a scientist might not be in the cards. My teachers seemed to write me off as not “Science material.” The harder I struggled, the more frustrated I became.
With over 100 students with a GPA of 92.2, the competition was relentless. I felt like a failure with an 85 average.
When it came time to apply for college, I was convinced that I couldn’t get into a good school. The guidance counselor seemed to agree.
I did get into the University of Wisconsin, where I thrived. But for the first semester, I was reluctant to raise my hand, given the fact that I was used to always being intimidated.
I hope this serves as a cautionary tale. The students being admitted through this program should not be put in an academic environment where they may be set up to fail.
Instead, offer gifted programs in other high schools where they will be encouraged to succeed. Not lost in a field of competitive over-achievers. They will thrive and go on to great things.
31
@Oscar
A study of students with lower SHSAT scores showed no measurable struggling. Some had issues, but the same ones that students with higher SHSAT scores like you had. And others did not. The fact that you scored well and struggled demonstrates that a single day's test score isn't a good way to choose students.
3
Samuel Cole took the specialized high school test and missed the cutoff for his chosen school by more than 30 points? No problem. Just lower the bar. I'm sure he'll have no issue keeping up with the rest of the students. And if not, just lower the bar again.
26
I am a single topic voter and this is my topic. I will lobby and vote against any politician that shamelessly debases merit and insult the very minorities they purport to help. I am watching and I do not think I am not alone.
43
This whole system is blatant social engineering. It's unethical. Children shouldn't have their whole future based on what High School they get into. Giving a few kids a second shot is too little too late. This system was founded on eugenic style determinism. It's elitist, rigged and/or arbitrary at the same time. All New York City High Schools must be brought up to an equal level of quality.
18
I’m just tired of the diversity nonsense and evidently so are some young people. On a recent trip a young Muslim American was holding a Jordan Peterson book. This prompted the young French Canadian sitting next to me to begin a conversation where the two said their fans, mentioned other right wing types they listened to on YouTube and bemoaned the “SJW culture” increasingly dominating our discourse.
The program itself seems harmless enough but this desire to assign worth to things only if there are a requisite number of blacks, Latinos or whatever identity group needs to end. It’s creating a backlash and it’s simply unfair.
18
@Ed Most people who are tired of diversity nonsense are white.
10
No. It’s Americans of Asian descent
24
@BKMom I guess I should have mentioned I’m Black.
"As they expand to the full 20 percent, the schools will have to cut back on their initial offers."
So they are literally going to steal seats away from kids who scored well enough to get in, to give them to kids who didn't do as well. Tell me how this is fair? It isn't.
Any kid who wants to obtain practice materials and master the test is welcome to. Those materials are free.
This is NOT the way to solve the problem.
56
What could be more fair than denying people who worked to meet the criteria in order to give away the places in the class that they earned to people who did nothing? Let's reserve all rewards for people who do nothing, seems like a foreward-thinking solution.
31
white guilt assuaged is not a plan for academic success. I know what happens next: teachers at specialized high school quietly pressured to "go easy" on Discovery Program students.
Just a bad idea.
34
I was accepted into Brooklyn Tech's Discovery program back in 2008, after missing Brooklyn Tech's cut-off by 11 points. I never thought that I was inferior to other students who got over the cutoff. Nor did I ever question my potential to succeed at Tech. I was appreciative of the chance at an education at a school renowned for many opportunities for growth and learning. I didn't have access to all the prep that other students got in JHS. Discovery gave me a chance when the SHSAT didn't. And I fared pretty well at Tech---was top 10% of my class, got into many top colleges, and now am working my way through medical school.
47
I understand that some students lack the advantages that a prosperous family can give them, but to lower the standards waters down what is supposed to be an exceptional educational opportunity. Rather than opting for a late fix, how about building these students' skills from the early grades going forward, so they can truly compete for places at elite schools?
23
As an inner city teacher, I hold my students to high standards. Holding them to high standards means you care about them as humans in the long term and have faith in their ability. Artificially lowering standards just for them because deep down you're convinced they're not as capable as others is absolutely horrible for them on all levels, and it's poor educational practice. It's racist, no matter the intent.
Then there's the outright racism against Asians, who are often impoverished. Basically, an Asian kid who passes the test will be denied a slot for a Black or Latino kid who doesn't pass. Wealthy folks - most White -will be just fine. If their kid doesn't get into the school, they'll just go to privates. Not so the impoverished Asians.
It just goes to show the truth of the saying, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions..."
69
@d years ago an Asian woman who I usually consider very clear headed said to me that Asians were the most hated minority (by the Left.) I thought it ridiculous, but never forgot it. I see it now, plain as day.
41
@tbs
Because Asians are the minority among minorities, wielding the least political power.
3
@d Please stop teaching "inner city" kids until you can recognize that high standards must also include more than a cursory nod to the centuries our society has spent building systems to oppress them and commit yourself to helping to dismantle them.
If today’s politicians don’t respect Asians, don’t vote for them. Democrats put Japanese Americans into internment camps so there’s been a long history of Democrats favoring other ethnic groups above Asians. Democrats have a lot of priorities, but helping hard working Asian students get ahead is not one of them.
35
I missed Stuy by literally two points. If you can’t make the cut, too bad. Why lower the entry criteria by admitting students who can’t handle the curriculum? This is a ridiculous policy for incoming students and for the schools.
39
There are many elite NYC high schools that use multifactorial admissions criteria (eg Townsend) and their student populations also don't reflect the demographics of NYC. The only thing that makes the specialty high schools different from other elite high schools, is that admissions is supposed to be blind and merit based, because the students are selected based upon their perform on the SHSAT test. A recent study that the DOE was forced to release, concluded that performance on that test did correlate with success in the specialty high schools and thus was highly predictive.
As a matter of fact, Staten Island HS of Science converted from a multifactorial admissions school to a SHSAT school, just to increase the number of diversity candidates admitted.
22
I think the first paragraph has to be a mistake.
It makes no sense to say Samuel Cole missed the cutoff by more
than thirty points.
The more he misses it the more likely he shouldn't go.
It makes more logical sense if he missed it by less than thirty points to say that with the help the Discovery program can give him he can be qualified to get in.
.
9
@John- Exactly. None of it makes any sense. The mayor has also reserved a large portion of middle school spots at the best middle schools for kids who get the lowest scores on the middle school entrance exam. He confuses exclusionary elitism with excellence and hard work. The school system should take the latter into account when conducting admissions procedures.
8
It seems to me that we keep getting this wrong. I am absolutely convinced that the only way to achieve parity for ALL our students is to give students an intensive elementary education. We might offer after school programs, all day schools, assistance for parents so that they can support the academic lives of their kids. Let us give kids nutritious lunches and dinners if their families can’t provide them.
Then let the tests be given and see if our well funded support programs work.
Creating a culture that fuels academic excellence is hard if people don’t have good housing, good food and feel safe. I believe that Black and Hispanic students can achieve as well as white students can. In every endeavor however equal opportunity doesn’t always guarantee equal outcome. Even with all the supports we are all not equally smart. Why is that fact so hard to accept. It’s not because we are different races or creeds it’s because academic intelligence is spread out across the populations.
17
But that would cost tax dollars. This is a free gesture.
3
@Jonathan Lewis
Unfortunately your idea makes too much sense and would not achieve immediate numbers-based results.
2
The beginning of the end
19
This is the WRONG way to level the playing field. Our specialized schools are a bastion of excellence for the most motivated students. This is so WRONG.
How about free test prep classes for high-performing students who can't afford it? How about making sure ALL middle school students are made aware of the test (and the FREE prep materials that are already available to them?)
Our specialized high schools are the pride of NYC. Now the mayor is going to lower their standards, just to get votes.
So WRONG.
33
@margosi
I agree and I don't.
I do not believe these prep classes help that much.
I believe a question can be asked that test your ability to think and not what you know.
Knowing more stuff will not help you and therefore what you learn at one of these prep classes will not be the difference between being able to answer the question correctly and not answering the question correctly.
It might even make it harder.
I think a prep class at best can give you the confidence you need to do well.
I believe all our schools can be a bastion of excellence for the motivated student if the school is allowed to teach to the best student and not the dumbest.
This can easily be done by offering classes in each school that only the smartest is allowed to take.
If anything these specialized schools doesn't help the people who are highly motivated.
It pushes the people who aren't that highly motivated. but are very smart who need a good mark to pass.
A highly motivated person doesn't care that much about marks.
They just want to learn
They therefore do not need a place that demands superior ability.
They just need the opportunity and that opportunity can be offered anywhere.
@margosi Will you also include the time off from work to support their families that preclude many of these students from doing the sort of test prep as their wealthier peers in your plan?
1
@Raul Duke
I get so tired of hearing about test prep! Not every kid who gets in had pest prep. I'm speaking from personal experience! But maybe one thing about test prep is kids don't really want to do it, so it could be an early test of kids' willingness to do test prep!
1
I'm a current Stuyvesant parent and a parent of an alum. Why is nobody talking about how having more diversity will benefit ALL students at these schools? Going to a fully integrated school, with kids of all racial and economic backgrounds, is a huge benefit for children's social development. It's worth putting extra resources into achieving this.
I believe that with added guidance and academic support, the kids in this program will succeed. (In my opinion, willingness and ability to work insanely hard is the main ingredient of success at Stuy.) A separate issue is whether the resources will be made available. Stuyvesant is not a very supportive school - the children are often left to figure things out for themselves, from scheduling to academic difficulties. But the kids are wonderfully helpful to each other.
16
My child is at Stuy. Diversity doesn't get grades. She struggles with the all too visible knowledge that the black students are at the bottom of the class and make up a large number of those who drop out. This is reality not a poly sci class
12
@Mickeyd there are so few black kids at Stuy, it's interesting that your daughter managed to notice their performance or drop-out statistics. My daughters never mentioned how other kids in their classes were performing either they didn't focus on it, or more likely, this info is not made public. They did learn a ton by becoming friends with kids from diverse ethnic backgrounds.
3
Well, I’m certainly glad we don’t use this handy cap kinda admitting policy when we choose our navy seals.
30
Here's an idea, let's improve all the schools so NYC students don't have to spend their formative years stressed out about getting into High School and everyone has the opportunity for a quality education. Oops, wait that costs money and why should we spend money on kids?
14
@silverwheel
Believe it or not all the schools are good.
It's the students who aren't.
A individual who is poor but is highly motivated can learn a lot in the schools we have in NYC.
A teacher has to teach to the dumbest to be able to teach to everyone in the class.
However a good teacher can offer the best student a challenge to do more and school can give a class that is geared to students who do better.
So even in a school where the average student fails, a
better student can be given the education that is needed.
It just means that student has to be motivated.
I have a friend who is a very good teacher.
He did very well in a school where the students-were highly motivated.
He didn't do well when he was transferred and given a class that was highly unmotivated.
This proves it's not the school that fails it's the students.
Yes there are teachers who can have some success on motivating some students but this hardly happens when pressure is put on these teachers to pass students who do poorly.
It is easy to say the schools have to be improved when you do not say what needs to be changed.
So I ask everyone who reads this comment to tell me
what needs to be changed so everyone will learn.
11
@John as a 26 year veteran teacher in the NYC schools I am here to tell you that is entirely untrue. The NYC public schools are underfunded, overcrowded and lack basic resources that suburban or specialized schools have. There are certainly are children that learn despite that but that does not justify the fact that NYC schools and students have been cheated for decades.
@silverwheel
How can you say the schools are underfunded.
The teachers in NYC can make over one hundred thousand a year.
The facts do not support your comment.
There are many students who went to public schools in NYC and then went on to ivy league schools.
What do you mean by lack of basic resources.
I believe there is no lack basic resources but if there was I can not accept hat as being a reason a child can not learn.
Most learning in public school is not dependent on resources.
Most students learn in class.
If anything the amount of resources are to much
as all schools now have computer labs.
I didn't even have that in college.
Yes suburban schools have more things but if they had the students that go to school in NYC they would have no more success than those schools have.
These schools were the last vestiges of true meritocracy. Students' race, background, income, connections did not matter. The test is not "rigged" in favor of non-URMs, it is just a test. The middle schools throughout the city should be making sure their star students are prepared to succeed on this exam. Do not make this a two-tier system, and do not take unique education opportunity away from talented and hardworking students of any race, income, or background.
27
I predict that a good number of the eligible feeder schools will not remain overwhelmingly Black and Hispanic. The better shot they provide for admission to elite schools will attract more white and Asian students. If there are gaps in the education offered, students and families will find resources online or elsewhere.
6
I recommend to every parent of a high achieving student to organize and protest this ridiculous pandering for votes. Don’t let them sell your kids down river . Once they let these under performing kids they will have to lower the bar to make sure they can graduate. Don’t let your child be denied entry for this mess
35
Can someone please explain the meaning of the "maximum scores" for the SHSAT shown in the table accompanying this article?
Are these the highest scores all/any applicants for each school achieved? Or did some test-takers have higher scores - and were excluded from admission as a result? In other words, are some students excluded for doing too well on the test?
The second scenario seems absurd, but then so do a lot of NYC policies re education & much else. But is it really possible that none of the very bright students taking the SHSAT has come within a 100 points of a perfect score?
These are not rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely baffled by the maximum scores & genuinely interested in clarification. Thanks.
9
I believe that a white student still has more opportunity if they don't get into a specialized school than a student of color. Most of the kids in my neighborhood of TriBeCa will do fine no matter what high school they go to. Young Mr. Samuel Cole will not. He is should go to the specialized high school and will hopefully do much better than his neighborhood school. Decades of substandard treatment and disadvantage needs to be replaced by opportunity. The white kids will be okay. Really.
10
Lisa, Stuyvesant is 70 percent Asian, not Whites. It is 40 percent kids on free or reduced lunch. de Blasio is pitting one minority against another for votes.
36
@Lisa Am I missing something? Why doesn’t Mr. Cole go to a specialized high school for which his score has made him eligible, rather than Stuyvesant, whose cutoff he missed by quite a bit? (I don’t remember the exact numbers.)
8
So your solution is to discriminate against high achieving white kids because of the color of their skin. And that’s not racist, why exactly? Is a 10 year old responsible for slavery, or just working hard to get ahead like anyone else?
5
Diversity in the NYC public schools is a laudable and achievable goal, but any plan that creates opportunity for some by taking it away from others is going to do more harm than good.
Reserving 20% of seats for students who didn't make the cut off means denying 20% of seats to those who did.
The story that's being told is that the students being rejected in order to make room are "privileged" and they are being set aside to serve the "under-privileged" , but there is no evidence for this and no plan in place to guarantee it. 65% of the students currently at Brooklyn Tech are from low-income families. They worked hard to earn their seat in that school and they deserve it.
Here's a simple solution: Take the $500 million dollars and open another specialized high school. If you believe that Asian students are taking too many places, don't punish them, make more places.
38
It is a great if you can get into one of these schools.
It's no tragedy if you can't.
Both Sanders and Schumer went to James Madison High School.
Maybe the fact they both went to ivy league colleges had something to do with their individual success in life.
This is only high school.
It is not a end to the education process.
Even college isn't that.
If you are a top student and qualified for one of these schools but were not allowed you will still get a education that will get you into a great college.
Once you are at this college you will catch up very quickly to the children who went to these elite schools.
In fact by going to a regular high school with regular people like James Madison someone like Schumer probably were given a educational experience that he could not get at these elite schools.
Going to a school like Madison Schumer was being prepared
to go into the real world.
This might in fact have helped him in college and the people going to these elite high schools could suffer because they did not learn how to achieve in a world where most people are not geniuses
The reason students who went to these high schools did better in life than students who didn't isn't because of the education they got at these elite colleges.
It's because only the smartest got into these schools.
If you put the dumbest into one of these schools and the smartest into a regular high school the smartest would still do better in the long run.
This is therefore about nothing.
3
@John: In the 1960s, there was a multi-college study which compared student's SAT scores with the scores on the GRE which the schools required them to take for this study. The students were not told about the study.
The purpose of the study was to learn what there was about a college that affected students' scores - Ph Ds on the faculty, large libraries, extracurricular activities, etc.
What they found was that the SAT scores and GRE scores of the individual students were very close; they came out about the same as they went in; nothing about the colleges made a difference.
4
Several posters have referred to the 2014 study that showed that students admitted under the Discovery program did virtually as well as students admitted strictly through the test. Unfortunately, this study is irrelevant because the new Discovery program is not like the Discovery program in 2014. The 2014 study followed students whose test scores were just a few points below the admission thresholds. These students were judged eligible for the Discovery program because they were disadvantaged, in other words, poor. Most of them, as even this carefully worded article admits, were white or East Asian. Under the new rules, the Discovery children will be chosen, not because they are poor, but because they attend schools that are poor; the students at such schools are overwhelmingly black or Hispanic. More seriously, the new Discovery program will admit, not children who just missed the cutoff scores, but children whose scores were much lower than the cutoffs.
Time will tell whether the students admitted under the new rules will succeed or fail, but the 2014 study that advocates of the changes cite does not support their position.
45
I am a democrat. With this and Uber, the Mayor has shown himself to be pandering. He lost my vote.
38
@Frank Settled down Frank. Regulation can be very good. A child of color whose parents haven't spent thousands of dollars on a tutor should not be penalized if they have bright and focused children. As for Uber - what don't you get? Drivers are killing themselves and Uber CEO's past and present are billionaires.
2
@Lisa
Nobody is penalizing a child whose parents haven't spent thousands of dollars. Many of the kids at specialized schools did not spend thousands of dollars either, they just worked very hard and have the capability of making it in those schools. The idea that there is an arbitrary 20% of spaces allocated to certain schools means that there are kids who got the score necessary to get in (as mandated by law) and get bumped due to a Mayor's arbitrary 20% declaration - which was to get votes.
As for Uber, many people who are upset are people who lives in the outer boroughs (Brooklyn for me) who rely more on Uber than unreliable MTA. I would rather pay more to Uber than wait around for an unreliable train. Even if they are just capping the number of drivers, those drivers might choose to go where the surge pricing is (ex Manhattan) and it will end up making it harder for those who live farther away.
In either case the Mayor did not deal with the underlying issue:
1. Fix those underperforming schools so that more kids can make the cutoff scores
2. Fix the MTA so it is a better option than paying more for an Uber.
Like I said, the Mayor was just pandering for votes and he's lost my vote.
1
Bad move. These kids may very well not be able to keep up. What happens then ? This is NOT about public education.
17
How you do on a test is not necessarily how you will do in life.
But those who argue that how you do on a test is not how well you will do in school are deluding themselves.
The answer is not to admit students who cannot pass the test--as the Mayor seems to think.
The answer is to prepare these children better than they are being prepared so that they CAN pass the test.
Unfortunately, that requires money and effort that the mayor and his associates don't seem to be willing to invest. Much easier to 'stick it' to the not much wealthier Asian kids who dominate at some of these schools and call it a day.
16
Last I checked, the schools in question are overwhelmingly Asian, by demographic. If our goal was to increase minority admissions by administering a standard test of merit, I would say that the current state of affairs (Stuyvesant is 70% Asian? 75%?) would indicate that we are succeeding! Especially once we consider that Asian-Americans have the highest poverty rate of any ethnic group in New York City, I would actually call this an unqualified success, and proof of the elite schools as engines of social mobility.
Am I missing something here? We base admission on a test, to level the playing field, and we find that the playing field is more level. Our elite high schools are filled with our best and brightest, most of them from minority backgrounds, and many from low-income homes precisely because everyone gets a fair shot on the test.
Can someone please explain to me why we are changing this system? Isn’t this exactly what we all wanted?
56
To believe that admission to these or any other school should be largely determined by a numerical score and then go bonkers when some just below that number are admitted before some at or above that number is lunacy. This is public education which has a broader mission than bean counting.
4
More than 30 points below the cutoff isn't just under the cutoff
17
@Tony; your comment is confusing. The whole point of a decision based on a clearly determined numerical score is that the decision is is based on a clearly determined numerical score. If you want to talk about bean counting, look no further than the racial quotas the mayor and his PC allies are trying to impose.
4
Next the schools themselves will have to water down the curriculum so the same percentage of cutoff kids will graduate as the ones who belong. Every time someone raises the bar somewhere, others rally to lower it back to mediocrity so everyone can 'have a chance'.
17
Not mentioned in the article - who is paying for the Discovery program? Will these Specialized High Schools receive additional funds to provide the additional instruction? Or will each school's PTA be forced to raise more money to pay for the program?
I agree with and support the program 100% but let's be honest, it isn't free to run.
3
Of course, this does mean that some students will be put in the truly bizarre position of having done too well to be admitted.
26
If 20% of 4000 seats will be set aside for Discovery students, it means the competition for the remaining seats will be that much tougher, ie, the cut off score will go up for them.
And 800 kids who would have been able to attend based on reaching the cut off will not be admitted.
And what happens if large numbers of these kids can't keep up? Does anyone seriously think teachers will be allowed to fail them? The level of difficulty will be reduced--even as the students admitted under the regular admissions process will have to score that much higher to be admitted.
32
@Talbot There are already Discovery kids in the SHS. They are not treated differently as far as grading goes. These are kids who were on the verge of making the score cut off - and may have done so if they came from better funded middle schools with prep programs built in.
2
...everyone is so caught up with these 'elite schools', as if they'll have any impact on the overall education of New York City children - it's political nonsense coming from the Mayor's office. It's a travesty- the effect of these schools will have less then a de minimis effect on NYC graduation rates. Please look up Comptroller Scott Stringer's scathing report of deterioration in the graduation rates of the city's high schools. Since Mayor de Blasio took office, the graduation rates at 150 of the city's high schools in the poorest areas have decreased every year. The graduation rates at those 150 high schools is hovering between 45%-50%. The overall rates, which are increasing, are masked by school in better areas, whose rates are in the nineties. The lower income students in New York City have been abandoned and forgotten by a politically motivated Mayor and Administration. Let's not focus on the elite schools, but go back to our public high schools that so desperately need to be revitalized.
25
Cue the wailing. What the folks who are against this refuse to acknowledge is that these under-represented children JUST miss the cutoff. They don't miss it by a huge margin. And I highly doubt these kids are going to lower the level of discourse in the classroom. And let's not forget that the majority of Asian children in NYC public schools are not attending specialized high schools, my own child being one of them. I am fairly certain my child will graduate high school with a solid education, attend university and end up a productive citizen. This unpopular plan is an attempt to level the playing field. In 1990 Brooklyn Tech was almost entirely black and Hispanic. Food for thought.
8
The kid mentioned in the article missed the cutoff by more than 30 points; that is more than just missing it
9
I don't think this will change the demographic makeup of specialized schools much. I'd like to see the demographic break down of the bottom 20% that passed the specialized test. All this will do is replace students that earned a spot with randomized students who did not qualify but will not change the demographic makeup much.
7
Too bad that performance is not being rewarded.
Are the numbers of seats also being increased by 20%?
If not, then there is also discrimination.
14
I think this is a vast improvement over the mayor's plan. Although I would prefer that they just kept the current system, this proposal at least is targeted at helping minorities - and others - who are severely disadvantaged.
I also like that this proposal wouldn't just reflexively benefit blacks and Hispanics since there are white, Asian, etc. students at those schools.
Kids of any race who are able to achieve at a reasonably high level at a "high poverty" urban school have undoubtedly worked hard enough and overcome enough (including more than likely having a parent or parents who provide very little educational support of any kind) that giving them what amounts effectively to a small boost on the SHSAT seems like a palatable compromise.
4
As usual with DiBlasio, once you look past the supposed good intentions, the actual plan will not achieve any substantive results. This plan works at cross purposes with the DOE's efforts to desegregate the middle schools. By limiting the Discovery program to only "poor" middle schools he cuts the legs out from the vast number of Black and Latino students who have successfully broken into the higher achieving middle schools. One wonders why the city cannot simply open up new specialized high schools in each boro if, as DiBlasio contends, there are so many qualified students with no suitable high school to attend -if true, isn't that really the heart of the problem.
14
What does Mr. Bluemnstein mean when he says the "the merit-based admissions, which the founding fathers established." Does he mean the same founding fathers who thought it was acceptable to own slaves? What kind of reason is that for not diversifying schools? I'm glad he wasn't my children's principal.
5
Life is not "fair". Get used to it. If some kids need a boost, so be it. In a perfect society, every youngster would get the same education. It doesn't happen. The Discovery program appears to try to put everyone on a level playing field. That has to
be a good thing.
11
@pschwimer - The test IS the level playing field. Anyone can study for it and take it!
4
Just for fun.
I turned down Brooklyn Tech because it was an all boys school then. I went to Lincoln High School in Brighten Beach and married my high school sweetheart.
9
Why are there only eight specialized high schools.
Why is it acceptable for other students who do not attend these specialized schools to be subjected to an inferior education.
When there are good schools for all then the fight over who gets in is ended.
13
@david
The SHSAT schools are far from the only public high schools for high achievers. There are many early college programs (some of which confer associate's degrees at the end of high school, others merely offer the opportunity to take college level classes), highly competitive traditional schools like Townsend Harris or the Baccalaureate School, or honors/specialty programs within larger zoned schools.
1
My kids both attended Bronx Science and graduated with averages well above 90%. Both were tutored for months prior to the SHSAT, learning math that they weren't taught until their 2nd or 3rd year of HS, and test taking skills that were useful for the SAT.
I have friends who attended one of the specialized high schools back in the day. There was no test prep, no tutors, no businesses built around getting your kid into Stuy or Bronx Science. As parents became wiser about to how to prep their kids, the exam was made harder. Now, most kids need test prep to get in. Sure, there are a handful of genius kids out there who walk in and take the test cold, and get into a specialized high school. I don't know any; all my kids' friends participated in test prep.
Why is it so impossible to believe that a kid who scores what my kids would have likely scored without test prep will do well at an elite high school? The Discovery Program isn't designed to randomly choose kids for the elite schools. It identifies kids with a lot of potential who didn't have the advantages of my upper middle class white kids who went to excellent public elementary and middle schools and had parents willing to pay for tutors.
It isn't fair to block a kid who scores well on the test from a seat in an elite high school. But is it fair to block a smart kid who doesn't have the resources or family support opportunities for an excellent education?
43
@Kath
But in the end, your kids actually passed the test.
What is being done is different--20% of the slots will be reserved for those who did NOT pass the test.
No one should object to providing as much tutoring as any kid (disadvantaged or not) is willing to participate in--so long as admissions are meritocratic and not some politically expedient populism.
There is another side to the coin-- the gifted kids (maybe white or asian) who will now be excluded in the name of mayoral expediency.
I think it is a big mistake.
19
@Kath
This is all anectdotal, but to counter your statement that "most kids need test prep to get in," I can say that my experience as a parent of a current student at Stuy is not "most" kids "need" test prep. Maybe "most" get test prep, but I am not sure that is true. I know many many kids (or at least what their parents have told me) who did not or, at most, only used a book from the library or one bought from Barnes & Noble. And many who received tutoring or attended prep sessions didn't need to do it in order to get in (they did it because their parents made them, because they perceived it as beneficial to their chances of getting in); they would have met the cutoff without the tutoring from what I've seen.
I should also note that getting into Stuy is very different than getting into some of the other schools with low cutoffs.
Finally, the crux of the issue is your last paragraph. With limited seats available, a choice must be made. For the kids just below and just above the cutoff, we should do more than flip a coin or decide based on thinly-veiled racial diversity factors; instead, we should have more options available to those who just miss the cutoff, so that they find other schools to be just as attractive as the specialized schools. In fact, they may be better off at those schools, where they may be more likely to shine as a superstar student, assuming most of the "naturally bright" students will be at the top specialized schools.
10
@Kath But imagine the following happens: Say that the bottom 20% of students that would be accepted according to the current criteria, have scores within a 40-point span. You eliminate those students, and raise the official bar by those 40 points, then pick the best students from the rest to fill the quota, but with "high-poverty middle school" filter applied. Now you find that the students who qualify according to the new criteria, scored 100, not 5 points lower than kids who didn't get an offer. Is this fair? And are we confident to attribute such a big difference to the "lack of test-prep"?
5
This is a tragedy for education in NYC and students who work hard and make the most of their gifts to succeed.
The article states: "As they expand [admission of demonstrably unqualified students] to the full 20 percent, the schools will have to cut back on their initial offers."
Right, 20% of qualified students will not be in schools they wanted to be in, worked hard for, so that students who could not demonstrate the same level of ability, using the same metrics, can. And this will also bring in students of color who are "underrepresented".
A gedanken:
These unqualified students get into college and then medical schools and become surgeons.
They do not take tests or get grades, continue to meet with counselors to make sure they do not act out and can always advocate for themselves. They ALL are doomed to succeed in this manner (just like the program that got the cohort into elite HSs).
Of course, some of the qualified students went to college and med school too and became surgeons.
Your child needs a l life-saving operation, from which surgeon cohort do you want your child's surgeon to come from?
Those doomed to succeed, or the ones who actually did?
16
Sounds like another piece of affirmative action at the expense of qualified whites and East Asian Americans. East Asian Americans, it's time to vote republican from now on to avoid any further abuse at the hands of the politically correct toadies that exist in academia and education. Efforts for "diversity" come at the expense of qualified applicants.
16
Better watch what you wish for! Asian students are very gifted and talented. If we get the GOP wish of highest score wins... MIT, Berkeley and other schools will become 95% Asian. I'm not being racist, just stating a fact.
3
@Kevin Bitz
So? How do you know it is a fact?
4
@Kevin Bitz - do you think the commenters here who support the current system of admissions based on the SHSAT score are somehow connected with the GOP?
1
Brought to you by the same people who brought you the late great open admissions program at CUNY. It succeeded in turning CUNY into the 13th grade. Now we can do the same for the elite high schools. Can someone channel Ayn Rand and write the novel?
34
Did any of you outraged posters actually bother to read the article? I always chuckle when white (and white-adjacent) Americans get worked up over "merit" and "social engineering." How convenient is it to skip over the decades of social engineering that created Black and Latino poverty in this country (redlining, anyone?)?
On the topic of Discovery student performance, the article referenced a study that stated, "Their average grade point average was 86.6 in ninth grade, compared with 86.7 for the students who had originally scored high enough on the SHSAT — some of whom had test scores that were 200 points higher."
Should the public school system be doing more to allocate resources to all schools? Absolutely. However, we cannot disregard the very real structural/institutional racism that has failed so many of NYC's Black and Hispanic public school students.
Bravo to the Discovery program and good luck to all of these kids. Continue to prove everyone just how capable you are. You deserve a seat at the table. You are not inferior.
33
@The Black Millennial
Did YOU read the article?
From the article:
"At the Stuyvesant [Discovery] program, 23 students took three weeks of classes in math, literacy and biology, and were assessed by teachers and received individual feedback, though they did not take tests or receive grades because the “focus was on content mastery, not on test preparation,” said Eric Contreras, Stuyvesant High School’s principal. They also worked daily with a guidance counselor on social and emotional skills, including learning to advocate for themselves.
At the end, all the students were accepted."
How did these students "prove" anything?
Consider that at institutions like Harvard, at some point during the admissions process, amorphous subjective soft criteria are applied to finalize admissions. POC cite these touchy-feely criteria as racist ( https://nyti.ms/2HSEsPL ).
I guess touch-feely criteria are OK as long as POC can get "a seat at the table" by using them.
10
@The Black Millennial - "white adjacent"? Huh, what in the world does that mean? Yet another classification I have to learn? Stop splitting us all up into smaller and smaller categories.
I remember when I was in high school there were quotas on Jewish students getting into "good" colleges because too many of us qualified to get in. We weren't rich and yet "too many" of us got good grades. Why was that?. Cultural differences will tell.
We learned that education was important and it was revered. Perhaps not PC but true.
25
@ddcat "white adjacent" is simply a fascist term used to by some to cower others who, because of "implicate bias", do not see the world "correctly."
If you consider that black Americans are multiracial, the reality of being white adjacent is theirs:
"Altogether, genetic studies suggest that African Americans are a multiracial people. According to DNA analysis led in 2006 by Penn State geneticist Mark D. Shriver, around 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5% European ancestry (equivalent to one European great-grandparent and his/her forebears), 19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25% European ancestry (equivalent to one European grandparent and his/her forebears), and 1 percent of African Americans have at least 50% European ancestry (equivalent to one European parent and his/her forebears).[13][159] According to Shriver, around 5 percent of African Americans also have at least 12.5% Native American ancestry (equivalent to one Native American great-grandparent and his/her forebears).[160][161]"
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans#Genetics
Unless you consider being black "cultural".
Then we then have to wonder why Rachel Dolezal's was expelled from the community.
Dolezal graduated from a HBC, Howard, with an MFA. Went on to teach as a college professor in the Africana Studies Program. She was also a chapter head of the NAACP.
Until she was outed as white, then her world fell apart. Source: https://nyti.ms/1dGSwgh
So, these schools will not longer be strictly merit-based? That is the beauty of the whole admissions process, and what makes these schools so special.
If NYC takes this approach, they need to first figure out why black and Hispanic students do not score as well and start addressing it way before high school.
24
@southern mom Nothing is strictly merit-based when a white student starts off miles ahead of their Black and Latino peers as a result of the decades (centuries?) of privilege their families have enjoyed.
4
Do the children of low-income, Asian immigrant parents get into these schools due to their decades of privilege?
23
@Jersey Girl
I hate to break to you, but, Black and Hispanic Americans are poorer than the Asian immigrant. The Asian community is almost surpassing White Americans in income. The Black American is getting short changed by newly arrived Asian immigrants who are gaming the system in Americas elite institutions and using the Black Civil Rights Movement to take and gain entry disproportionately and unfairly into our elite schools (i.e. California UC System). They do not seem to care about anyone but themselves and seem ungrateful of all the opportunities they have been afforded by the Black and Hispanic American who still is disproportionately represented in our elite establishments. When I see them stand up for the discriminatory treatment of Black and Hispanic Americans, since they too consider themselves a minority when it is convenient for them, then I will support their efforts to be included. When is this ever going to be addressed, so that their is a real balanced and fair system for everyone, so no one group can overwhelm the system?
4
You know what? I want ALL children, regardless of race or economic status, to have the chance to become the best they can be, and achieve whatever they are capable of. Why the NYC school system does not attempt to make that possible is beyond me. EVERY child is precious - and each one is a potential resource we can't afford to waste or simply cast aside.
This is not about "elitism" - it's about recognizing that talent comes in many forms (not just STEM!). And each child's talent deserves to be supported, encouraged and nurtured, so that child & his/her talent can blossom.
12
Our son is a senior at Stuyvesant, and our daughter is entering 8th grade at Hunter. We (two physicians) moved into an expensive neighborhood so our kids could attend an excellent elementary school. We bought every test prep book we could find, and spent many hours over many years preparing our kids to test into the best middle schools, and then for tests to qualify them for Stuy and Hunter.
How many kids without the advantages and preparation mine had could also flourish in elite schools, but might have just missed the cutoff? This Discovery program is evidence-based, and investigators have documented that those admitted this way have indeed done well in specialized high schools.
If a few kids from relatively privileged backgrounds don't get in to elite schools so that hard-working children with so many structural disadvantages have an opportunity, that is a trade-off we should be willing to make.
64
@cornell
What if the city calls you tomorrow to inform you that next year, 2018-2019, your kids' spots will be taken by kids from poor families and that your kids will be transferred to lesser public schools? heck, if you believe what you say, why not pull your kids out of Stuyvesant and Hunter to make room for less privileged students.
Everybody who thinks this parent should move his/her children out of Stuyvesant and Hunter to make room for disadvantaged students, say "aye."
35
@cornell Who is "we"? A significant number of students in the elite high schools qualify for free lunches. And another fact that everyone who advocates for reduced acceptance standards for Black and Latino students elides: Asians as a group are the poorest New Yorkers. The Asian kids most likely to be excluded by this policy are likely to be just as poor and lacking connections as the weaker-performing Black and Latino students who take their spots. Of course, now that your kids have safely graduated from Hunter and Stuyvesant, "we" should be willing to make this sacrifice. Another inconvenient fact for you to chew on: the specialized high schools spend approximately $2,000 LESS per student than the weakest performing high schools in NYC. Their performance derives from the motivation of the student body. How is motivation likely to be affected if standards are visibly relaxed for certain groups?
9
@richguy Then "rich guy," the rich people can send their kids to private school with other rich kids who didn't get into the elite public school. If you don't like how public schools operate, you're free to pay for your children's education privately.
1
Instead of promoting programs that lower the standards, why not use rules that are already in place. You don't need the Discovery program, just spend the next school year prepping to retake the test. Summer school is not going to help if you can't pass the test, it will foster a false sense of security. Disrespect will be the order of the day.
4
Regarding the 'Discovery' program.
We spend an enormous amount of time and effort assisting those who are, or are perceived to be, disadvantaged. Perhaps this is as it should be.
But we spend precious little on those who are gifted. It is assumed that gifted kids will maximize their natural abilities and that there is no need to help them--when there is no evidence to support this.
No one is being excluded from attending these specialized schools because of race or religion-- admission is based upon a single test of subject matter. Allowing students admission for any reason except intellectual achievement is completely unfair to those who have done the work needed to pass the entrance exam and who will now be denied admission because someone is of the 'right' ethnicity or race is being pushed--without merit-- to the front of the line.
The current system is honest: Anyone who can pass the test gets in. There are no legacy admissions, financial contributions or political favors available. For kids who aren't passing, improve their schools. Provide tutoring for them. Motivate the students who are not making it to try harder in their studies. Do anything--but don't do this.
It's so easy for the Mayor to game the system. And the resulting effect upon the students actually doing the work to get in and the schools which are holding those students to a high standard is utterly predictable--look at what happened to CUNY when admission standards became optional.
75
@Lkf In theory I agree, but the political wave is so strong, and the mayor so willing to commit fraud (but only after his kid graduated Brooklyn Tech) - see https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/03/nyregion/admissions-test-shsat-high-s...
that I think this may be a reasonable accommodation to keep the test, which is paramount. While absolute merit would be better, I understand why it's hard for some taxpayers to accept that nearly no one of their ethnicity is at a school. Keeping the test and making a small accommodation is so much better than what the mayor wants.
2
@Lkf sure it's currently fair, when some kids parents can spend thousands on tutoring or other ways of advantaging kids and some kids parents are limited in their ability to help their kids much because of long work hours, lack of supports and cultural barriers, this is just a tiny step towards equality, please relax.
4
@maria5553
Tutoring--sure. As much as any kid wants and more. No kid who is able to pass the test should be excluded because a parent cannot afford tutoring.
But it is very much a step AWAY from equality when smart kids who passed the test are denied admission in favor of kids who did not pass the test. And that is what is happening here.
1
This is a great start but I hope we are not just going to call it a day now. The city needs far more than these 8 specialized schools. Open more schools for gifted kids!!
14
@Mary Agreed. Or expand the few smaller ones to twice the size to allow more students in. HSMSE and HSAS only have about 500 total students while the big three have thousands.
1
A personal note: I was a very, very good test taker. I thrived on tests. In 1960, in the middle of a snow storm with a raging case of the flu, I took the SATs, 735 English 5 something Math( I was a girl : I believed the culture. ) but I was a terrible student. My report card bled red from Ds and Es. I could have gotten in to any competitive school ( assuming they took women ) but I wouldn't have been able to stay.
My point is that tests test current knowledge and logic but they don't identify scholars. Let's find a way to do that.
5
@Lisa Kesser
The subtext of your comment is that, in the early 60's, it didn't pay to be an academically successful woman (so why bother?). If I thought that being female would prevent me from getting into a great college, I wouldn't work in school either. If I thought that being a smart girl at a great school might repulse potential husbands, I might try to fail. It sounds like, back in 1960, being academically successful was, for a woman, at worst a form of social self-sabotage, and, at best, sort of useless (aside from self-satisfaction).
2
@richguy
Your interpretation of Lisa Kesser's comment is off-base. She argues high scores on standardized tests do not predict productivity or sustained scholarship. She's asking for means to identify such gifted students.
@Uno Mas
Of course, they don't predict sustained scholarship. In college, I knew a few gifted kids who chose to do heroin instead of schoolwork.
My point is that a lot of gifted kids will do the work, only if they think it will pay off in social or professional advancement. If it doesn't, just blow off school and start a band. Lisa's comment, to me, made it sound like,w hen she was a teen, she say no real life benefit from applying herself to school. Anyhow, that's what i saw between her lines.
It's my true belief that top schools (Princeton, Duke, etc) don't really care about productivity of sustained scholarship. Hardwork doesn't get you into a top school. Aptitude does. IQ does. I know people who spent ten years an 700 pages on their dissertation yet who never said anything smart of interesting. I know kids who never went to class, showed up once, said three absolutely brilliant things, won their teacher's interest for the rest of the time at school. To most professors, intelligence matters way more than a good work ethic. To them. gifted = high IQ/smart.
In 'A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man," Stephen Dedalus knocks a fellow student for "stewing," which means barely overcoming innate stupidity through hours and hours of hard work.
I wish the City spent as much time and energy and into improving ALL New York City high schools - not just the “special” schools. All of New York City students deserve care and attention and can set higher standards.
28
If New York schools weren’t so bad everyone would want to live in the city. Dumbing it down keeps families moving out to the suburbs, keeping New York from becoming crowded.
1
For many reasons, I have very mixed feelings about NYC's efforts to diversify its elite schools. Chief among them is it penalizes otherwise qualified students through no fault of their own. In addition, it seems to be based on an alteration of standards for the benefit of a distinct group of NYC students. But most troubling is it reinforces the notion that high school defines an individual.
I attended the NYC public schools in the dark days of the late 1970's. I was denied admission to Stuyvesant and Bronx Science, even though I had scored 10 points higher than my older sister who, in a prior year, tested into Bronx Science! Guess I must have been born in a very smart year. In any event, coming from a family of modest economic means, I had no choice but to attend my local public high school, which, in a word, was terrible. However, many of my high school classmates, and I - of all races and none wealthy - persevered, got admitted to colleges, closed the educational gap, and went on to live productive and professionally successful lives. Not having Bronx Science in our quiver didn't limit us.
There are multiple on ramps to the road to success. It would be wonderful to reinforce the message for those students who don't test into an elite high school, who may mature later than others, that a bright future is still attainable.
34
@Greenfish I think you mean it penalizes test prep tutors who aren't getting 100% of the admits to pony up. Nearly everyone with the means to do so pays thousands of dollars to get their kids into these schools. It's not merit based.
3
@Greenfish
I agree.
Your comment is one of the most important one yet was not a Times pick or did it get a lot of recommends.
Your story tells us that in the long run high school prepares you for college.
The real learning takes place there.
If people understood this then they would realize this is about nothing.
@Law Feminist maybe "nearly everyone with the means" does so. But the majority of kids in these schools don't come from "means." My daughters prepped for the SHSAT by doing practice tests out of a book I got at Barnes&Noble. I spent under $25 per child.
I'm waiting for the lawsuit. People are being harmed who have earned those positions. Three schools are required by the *state* law to use the SHSAT only for entrance. The mayor is breaking the law by changing the admissions criteria.
Stuy, Brooklyn Tech, Bronx Sci are required by state law, not the NYC DOE, to use the SHSAT.
The mayor is either oblivious to this or he's somehow purposefully setting in motion a way to get the law changed.
Either way he's now making ALL of the almost 600 schools subject to "gaming" the system through politicking, rather than reserving at minimum three that are free of that toxicity. Parents: start your bribing and networking engines to make sure that "your" kid is in one of these three schools.
Let the games begin.
16
@Alive and Well: ["Let the games begin." ]
The games began decades ago.
The SHSAT, like the SAT and GRE were designed to test students 'as they were' at the time of taking the test.
Students whose families have some money send their children to test prep courses a year before the test. Students from groups where test prep is a cultural imperative spend years preparing for tests. This is 'gaming' the system.
9
@Allen - I took the GRE without any special test prep except to buy the GRE workbook with previous types of questions. A week before the test I studied. On my own. I did well. I am not a genius. I am smart and very focused. I got into the graduate program of my choice. End of story.
@ddcat: You did more prep for the GRE than I did as I was required to take it by my college along with my cohort (at no cost to us) as part of a study. I also scored very well. Some of us can.
This is terrible news. NYC has some of the best public high schools in the country, and they are powerful engines for social/economic mobility. This will deny spots to higher achieving students in order to score political points (and I'm proudly liberal).
29
All this does is water down and possibly restrict growth of more gifted students.
The children who get into Stuyvesant......have a single
ethnicity.... exceptional ability for Science and Math. No one is being restricted for any reason other than level of achievement and amount of seats available.
All that is being said is that the next tier of INSTRUCTION,
not students, is not being provided for additionally exceptional students, for if we have more students than Stuyvesant can accommodate then we should be providing those schools, that level of teaching for as many gifted students (on all levels) . Spend the 2 bucks and provide the opportunity to a wider group! That's some "math" which is not too difficult to understand.
12
So, kids who do not meet the criteria will now be accepted into these schools? How does that prepare them for anything? Yes, it gives them the opportunity to go to an excellent high school. But I hope their performance will also be documented and tracked since they may not be prepared for the higher level of work and expectations -- it just puts them in different seats. Furthermore, I fully realize that poverty is the most significant factor in determining student achievement. Therefore, why isn't the problem being addressed at the lower levels -- if you know that poorer kids in poorer schools don't perform as well, put the factors in place to eradicate the effects of poverty...after school help and play, community outreach, higher echelon teachers in poorer schools, medical and nutritional attention to the families in the community, and so on. Just letting kids into schools for which they do not qualify may diversify the student population of those schools, but it also sets those students up for possible failure.
8
@Just Me, as an aggregate there is no poorer ethnic group than Asians. The dominate group in these schools are Asians. There is no such group as whites and Asians. So much for working hard to succeed in America. To say that poor kids can't succeed, regardless of demographics is is an insult and for our head of the nyc doe to speak of how kind this policy is for Asian immigrant parents who often do not speak English at home is just sad. Grow up mayor.
9
@Just Me According the article, this has been going on since 1971. All this says is that people need to be aware of what is going on in their communities.
Well good news for the 20% lucky kids.
What about the 80% leftovers ?
5
@New World
What do you suggest? Let everyone in regardless of grades?
1
Why not focus resources on providing tutoring and test preparation services to students in these low-income schools. Let these students rightfully earn their spot in these schools like their peers.
13
@Andrea G
where does the money come from? I'm a private school educated person living in Battery Park City. I want kids. I want to send them to private school. If I'm teh sole earner, I'll need about 400k+ a year of income to be able to send my kids to private school. If my taxes go up, that likelihood goes down. I can always say to myself, "my kids can attend to elite public schools in NYC, if I can't afford private school." If I no longer feel sure my kids can attend an elite public in NYC or that those schools will stay elite, I might move to Rye NY and pay taxes there.
The tax money for the programs you suggest comes from Wall Street parents. Why would Wall Street parents stay in NYC, if the public schools in NYC become less good than the public schools in Rye, Darien, Westport, Great Neck, Bronxville? The main reason Wall Street people feel okay about paying NYC taxes is the idea they can send their kids to great NYC publics, if they can't afford the 100k a year for two kids' tuition at a private. Higher taxes and/or an overheaul o fthe public schools will drive Wall Street parents to Westchester, Faifield, and Great Neck. I ask again: Who pays and why would they pay (aside from a sense of civic duty or a feeling of charity)?
7
@richguy: You don't even HAVE kids yet, and you're all up in arms about having to move to Rye to get them a good education?! Even better, you're somehow "sure" your non-existent kids will all make it into the "elite" public high schools in NYC. Wow!
Furthermore, you must be well aware that PLENTY of "Wall Street parents" (as you call them) do NOT live in NYC, but rather live in expensive suburban areas (such as Great Neck, etc.). So, what's your point? Is that a terrible hardship for their families?
And finally, are we supposed to feel bad that your non-existent children might have to live in a pricey suburb?
Honestly, I feel sorry for any kids you may some day, b/c it's clear they'd be living in a pressure-cooker environment at home.
I'd like to ask where you got all your sense of entitlement from.
4
@L
I love Rye and Greenwich and Armonk. Gorgeous places. No hardship there. I used to be an English professor at Fordham. I didn't attend top 20 schools. I can't claim to have an Ivy League IQ (my dad and grandpa do), but I can promise to give my kids the same level of instruction at home that I gave my students at Fordham. My older half-brother teaches at Harvard. My kids (when I have some) will be able to imbibe intelligence from their uncle.
I don't know about the pressure-cooker thing. I grew up in a home in which reading was central. At age 5, I had elite scores for my age group. Then, at 7, my parents divorced, and I spent age 7 to 13 watching TV five hours a day. My kids will grow up in a home full of literature, music, and skiing. If THAT fails, they can hang out a lot with my Harvard professor brother ;)
My original point is that rich New Yorkers will probably move to the suburbs, if there are big changes in the school system, and their tax dollars will go with them.
1
Sadly there won't be enough jobs for most of these students - as we all know how deeply the discriminatory practice against less wealthy individuals will be when it comes to high-level, executive officer roles/positions by employers. This generations will be lucky to have jobs that pay a livable wage - regardless of how "good" their education claims to be! Welcome to the American Lie and a Government the Loves it!
@NYC-Independent1664
True but that doesn't mean the government has failed.
You need a top guy to do some kind of research for example.
If you have twenty top guys you would need twenty research programs.
Maybe there isn't a need for all that research.
The problem isn't that there aren't enough jobs it's that there are to many people being educated to get those jobs.
Take law for example.
There are many people looking for work in that field.
The problem is that schools are graduating more lawyers than are needed.
Most of these students will obviously not find work.
This isn't a American problem.
Why would you think things are better outside of the USA.
In fact it is probably just the opposite.
Why do you think the best of the best students coming from every country come here to find work.
It's not only because they pay more here.
It's because there are more jobs here and not enough there.
The good thing is that a education you get might not help you get the job you want it can get you a different one.
In the long run education is not a bad thing.
A smart person with a education will have a advantage over someone who doesn't.
I am a graduate of Brooklyn Tech Class of 73'. Must say it was truly challenging and to be honest at times I had to struggle to make the grade. I hope that the young people who will benefit by the 20% outreach will stay the course as I did.
Of concern are the other young folks who may have "technically" made the entrance grade but will not be admitted. What reasoning can we give that may plant itself positively in a young mind to suggest that he/she should not give up?
10
Where will the more qualified students who were displaced by Discovery students go?
Students make the school even more than the teachers. Graduates are sought by elite colleges because the colleges think they are getting the best students in New York. This announcement put colleges on notice that they aren’t getting New York’s best.
23
@Rick Students may make the school, but the school and its environment also make the students. Your contention that colleges will somehow be cheated out of the "best" students because of a program like this is ridiculous. Colleges aren't admitting 8th graders, they're admitting high school seniors. These "Discovery" kids are likely to be excellent additions to elite colleges after 4 years of elite high school. If anything, I would say colleges might be cheated out of the "best" potential students if these "Discovery" kids don't have the opportunity to have a great high school experience.
@Rick - Colleges have their own affirmative action policies. They are already lowering standards to increase diversity.
1
I am sympathetic to those students who will be admitted beyond test scores but what about keeping those students who are now going to be displaced? Why not increase school size?
16
@Nancy: Actually, there's nothing stopping NYC from opening one or more additional specialized schools. It's just a function of our dysfunctional government & educational system here that it hasn't happened already.
8
@Nancy
because, in general, small classes are one of the hallmarks of better schools? Nobody her seems to get what makes a school good. It's not magical quality. These things make a school elite
1) teachers with a more or less Ivy League IQ
2) smart kids who want to learn raised by parents who make those kids read books at home
3) small classes
4) a uniform level of intelligence in class, which allows teachers not to have teach down to less smart kids
Schools can't compensate for bad homelife.
Education doesn't make dumb people smart. Education makes smart people smarter. Secular liberal culture believes in Education (capital e) the way the Catholic Church believes in priestly absolution. I don't think Education (capital e) elevates IQ. I think one must teach to each level of intelligence. If a student exceeds their tier, you promote that student. That's why college kids transfer.
@L That would take 10 years at a minimum.
One problem -
"Only students who attended high-poverty middle schools will be accepted." There are excellent middle schools that work to enroll minority students. The Center School in Manhattan is one example. It looks like this program will penalize minority students who were selected to a non
"high poverty" middle school.
8
@C I hardly think the Center School is a shining example of a diverse middle school: https://nypost.com/2018/05/06/how-an-ultra-exclusive-public-school-has-a...
1
They're just setting these kids up for failure. You can admit them, but can you graduate them?
13
@Tom Read the entire article.It will enlighten you as to the track record and comparative results.
9
Why not get these kids up to speed at their local high school in their freshman year. If they really have the desire to attend and graduate an elite school they can be admitted in their sophomore year. This will give them a chance to mature and get their priorities straight without denying a hard working student a chance to attend.
18
@Mike Scandif
The subtext here is that good students make a good school, and that most public school teachers can't do much. The reasons so few schools are elite are that only a handful of teachers are any good and that it's the student body that makes a school good. To have an elite school, you need to have the 15% of teachers who are smart and you need smart students. The mistake is to blithely assume that all teachers are good. At NYU, all professors are good, but most public school teachers are dummies who couldn't get a better job. If ALL teachers were equally good and all students were equally educable,then all schools could be elite (it's not the cinderblock that makes a school elite). Start with the assumption that only 20% of the city's teachers are any good at their job. Then assume that only 25% of the students in the city are non-disruptive, non-ADHD, non-violent, and capable of participating in school in a conducive way. Now, how do you prevent the concentration of quality in a handful of schools? Is it possible for quality to be universal?
6
@richguy you assume too much. My experience with local high schools that my family attended had excellent teachers in the NYC system. You can't put numbers to your assumptions and call them facts. We have too much of that in this country already. There are a tremendous amount of resources put into these "disadvantaged" schools and students. Lets not malign the dedicated teachers for the sake of your argument.
Why have an entrance exam if you are going to admit 20% of the kids who didn't pass it? The kids who can't pass the exam will fail in the school and require extra help, thereby taking teaching time away from those kids who can actually do the work.
Let's just have a lottery, weighted based on race, to determine who gets into to these highly competitive specialized schools. This will get the desired result and make these specialized schools no better than the regular schools in a short time.
40
@Jason A.
You can't have elite schools without elite students. The Cavaliers were an elite team, but not anymore. It's not the coaches, arena, or uniforms that made the Cavs elite. It was James and Irving. You don't make a team elite by forcing them to trade their first round picks for undrafted free agents.
4
I'm guessing most of the kids who get into these schools get a lot of test-prep for this one-day test (whether it's classes or tutors). Obviously it's all about the test---doesn't sound like anything else is considered. How about providing free quality test prep for disadvantaged students who have the potential to do well at these specialized schools.
23
@SarahK My son is very bright and was admitted to a top private school. You are absolutely correct.We paid and he was tutored to take the test. He aced it and did well in school. The test does not always mirror the material covered in class. These children don't have advantages that parents can buy.
5
@SarahK , I'm a parent of a current Stuyvesant student and a Stuyvesant graduate. To prepare of the SHSAT, my kids did a couple of practice tests out of a book, and nothing more than that. I credit their success to the strong education they received in their public middle schools, where they had access to accelerated math classes.
If a child doesn't learn this math in school, in my opinion it would be impossible to catch this child up via test prep, no matter how intense. Many (most?) city schools don't teach math to the level required to pass SHSAT. So the failure is with the NYC school system that fails to educate its poor kids.
Many Asian and White students at Specialized schools are poor too (many White kids are children of immigrants from the Former USSR). These populations are adept at supplementing what is lacking in their children's early education via academic afterschool and weekend classes, and seeking out "gifted and talented" programs (this was the case with my daughters).
Black and Hispanic students deserve equal educational opportunity: as in, to get to be taught what my kids were taught. But this is too expensive, so DeBlasio, cynically, would rather mess with the test - MUCH easier than actually providing education of which these kids are now deprived.
Unlike that cynical approach, the Discovery program seems like a step in the right direction, an investment in remediating educational gaps in hard-working kids, and ensuring diversity in elite schools.
19
@SarahK
Your guess is incorrect, or at least, not necessary to do well on the test. My daughter got into Bronx Science . Test prep consisted of a modest book from Barnes & Noble.
14
Obviously, this discriminates against others who DID make the cut-off, but will now be demoted. Who will get hurt? Not the wealthy with children in private schools, but the aspiring middle class. I suspect first and second generation Asian students will be hurt the most. Next: we will be hearing about retention.
96
@Jay65 No. There are plenty of really good schools in NYC and the middle class students that don't get in to elite schools can choose another good school. Middle class kids in good neighborhoods will be just fine while those in high poverty schools may not be.
5
@Tai L wrote "Middle class kids in good neighborhoods will be just fine while those in high poverty schools may not be."
Why can't they be fine also? If they can do the work demanded at the specialized schools, they should be able to do the work at one of the other really good schools in the city. They just need to apply through the regular high school selection process. If they can "apply" to the specialized high schools by taking the SHSAT, they should be able to apply to the other really good schools by listing them on their high school selection application and, for some schools, taking the tests or attending the interviews needed (for others, like Midwood, there are no extra requirements).
1
@Jay65 Yes, first there will be burdensome "extra help." Then when that becomes intolerable, standards for all will drop and the schools will be less "elite." Nothing like being the smartest kid at your neighborhood school, only to find yourself at the bottom of the heap in high school. Say goodbye to self esteem.
10
Somewhat ironic - I read the entire piece and the author was being so very... very... careful in his words and phrasing that I still have no idea whether this is a program for racial quotas or a program for disadvantaged students.
18
ANY type of social engineering I find repulsive.
Handing out Participation Trophies in the form of an admission slot sends all kinds of wrong messages. I'm sorry. But if you can't pass the test with the requisite score needed to get in...well...you don't get in. Welcome to the real world.
So what happens now? A child who did get the score needed for admittance gets told "Sorry. We know you did what was required of you. And we know you made the cut. But, you see, there are powerful special interests at work here who say there's too many of your race getting in so you have to go."?
Welcome to the NEW real world I suppose.
89
@Dennis The Menace
George Carlin said it best:
"Congratulations you're our 39th winner"
5
@Dennis The Menace It's too late in history to begin finding social engineering repulsive. Slavery was the ultimate repulsive act of social engineering, as was centuries of race discrimination such as residential red lining. And the ultimate act of reparative social engineering would be for the White population of this country to reimburse the money they made from slavery and from being allowed to economically advance via home ownership etc. This money would buy a lot of quality education for Black kids, and in a generation or two, our elite schools would be perfectly integrated.
7
@Anya
Asians (Coolies) also had a tough time in America. People forget about Asian indentured servitude, which I think was a big deal in California in the middle of the 19th C. Sometimes people talk if all the Asians in America arrived here in Porsches.
Outrageous - the DeBlasio administration is hellbent on destroying the last vestige of quality education in the City. Standards are standards and diluting them will only hurt those who pass the test at the required levels and further hurts those who are ushered in on the sly who don't have the skills to perform. Gee will these new students rise up to the challenge then or will the schools be forced to dumb down the curriculum and pace to wait for them. And why is this really the only issue that has a lit a fire under the Mayor - he has done basically nothing to improve the city in any other area. A desperation for votes and to be seen as a national progressive so he can flaunt that when he begs for a cabinet job with a new democratic administration? Probably, the venality is sickening. But what will be worse is what will be lost is generations of well educated students in the city.
54
@ST If you read the article, you'll note that the Discovery admits have near identical average GPAs to that of the rest of the school. 30 points isn't a great enough difference to cause a "dumbing down," unless you're suggesting that students at the Brooklyn schools are "dumber" than the students at Bronx Science.
I think it would be a lot more fair to provide these Discovery students extra help and tutoring in actually getting the good scores on these exams. This would be an effort lasting for at least a year. But having them being admitted with lower grades than the hard working Asian students is just unfair. And it sets expectation for these students that they can get away with standards lowered for them just because they are black/Hispanic...
53
So Silly again. Let's say my child wants to play in the Jr. NBA league? It was just on ESPN. He or she has to be of a certain height, athleticism, basketball skill set. They do not set aside 20% of slots there for kids that are average. I would venture to say 100% of players in the NBA can dunk the ball. Skin color should have nothing to do with anything.
50
Part of the issue is that the test is not extremely relevant to the actual curriculum. Parents of more affluent children spend a lot of money for specialized test prep and tutoring, and more affluent schools are more likely to incorporate test prep into their offerings and advertise ways to access it. Less affluent schools tend to have more overworked staff that is focused on making sure students simply stay in school. The test is not the best indicator of who is equipped to succeed, and the ability of money to buy a better chance further reduces its value.
7
Wasn’t Dante a Discovery admit at Brooklyn Tech?
19
The absurdity of maintaining a school’s admittance exam while allotting one in five of all available spaces at said school to individuals who are exempt from the aforementioned exam could not possibly be understated.
This does nothing to help anyone except perhaps some politicians, and will inexorably create a lot of headaches for school employees and enrollees alike.
72
And how will kids who broke their necks studying, got higher scores and don't get in feel? And we're telling immigrants, often poor Asian immigrants who spent their limited resources helping their kids get into top schools, that it's too bad but a quota system has pre-empted their efforts. BTW, just curious, but did DeBlasio's son get into Brooklyn Tech through the Discovery Program?
89
@ZHR
There are limited amount of spaces in these high schools.
There are more students who can qualify to get in than the number of places there are in these schools.
Most of those kids from poor Asian immigrants who spent their limited resources to get into a top high school would not get in even if only these Asians were admitted because there isn't enough room for all of them.
These people knew this even if you didn't.
How about opening up as many specialized high-level schools to enable all of these wonderful youngsters to receive this college level education? That would be the way to NOT exclude Asian and white students, while including all qualified children.
All children who want to take several summers of intensive Discovery programs should be able to avail themselves of this.
Most parents in New York City cannot pay for intensive coaching. This would level the playing field, and give a genuine chance to every child in this fine City.
14
The true diversity being introduced to the schools is that less well qualified students will be admitted. In the workplace, no one says that things are fair, but they do have to not discriminate. In this proposal, things will not be fair and will discriminate - the worst of all possible situations. Hats off to the mayor for this terrific idea to lower standards at our schools - he has already lowered our standards for elected officials.
42
i don't know if this is just a stylized version of racism, or not, or whether it will significantly change the profiles of extremely successful high school graduates. It IS important to maintain the academic rigor of the schools - without resorting to racism . . Good luck with finding the perfect approach.
Anyway, an extraordinary effort being put into place for a very small number of students. It's great for them. But, is there anything like this summer program available to hardworking, but more average students who could gain from intense academic teaching and coaching over the summer? Plus if I were a parent of a "normal" kid in an underperforming school, I would be crazy over the iniquity.
Also, that old two semester format is simply stupid in the world we live in. It started with farming needs: it now involves teacher's contracts and the need to retrofit schools with air conditioning. Should these issues be major impediments to improving education?
5
Let’s track how these kids perform. It is a disservice to them if they end up failing in a more rigorous academic environment than they are prepared for.
39
The NY Times reported on a similar program at U Texas that had a 2 track admissions program: regular and diversity students in the top 10% of their disadvantaged high schools. Needless to say, the diversity candidates were ill prepared, did poorly unless given special attention and help, had severe emotional problems and a high drop out rate and did fare worse than their cohorts who chose to go to a college commensurate with their abilities.
2
At first, this sounded to me like exactly what the City should be doing -- identifying talented kids from ghetto schools and giving them the extra boost that would allow them to qualify for the elite high schools.
Then I read further in, and was disappointed to discover thinly-disguised racism. Rather than doing the hard work of elevating the academic accomplishment of poor students, they have chosen schools with large black and Hispanic populations, and set aside seats for them at the expense of better qualified white and Asian students.
That this disproportionately comes at the expense of Asian students, many of whom also live in poverty but who work extraordinarily hard, illustrates just how noxiously bigoted this measure actually is.
And the effect? It will either dumb down the elite schools, leaving talented children of moderate means without access to an appropriate education, or, as a teacher who worked with inner city children pointed out to me, leave the kids who can't handle the work feeling like failures. Probably a mixture of both.
157
@Josh Hill unfortunately the mayor will not read your post.
4
@Josh Hill Thinly veiled racism? The lack of Black and Latino students in elite schools like Stuyvesant is no secret. Why are these white & Asian students "better qualified?" Maybe because they can afford to attend outrageously expensive tutoring centers during the summer.
Discovery is helping students who were close to the cutoff and putting them through an intensive summer program to ensure they are poised to succeed when they start high school. Maybe the problem is that you think admitting Black and Latino kids from "the ghetto" will dumb down these schools. Making schools like Stuyvesant more diverse can only help the students that attend.
@Maisha - That Asian and White students all pay for exorbitant tutors is a RUMOR. Let's stop perpetuating it please. Plenty of working class Asian and White kids studying for and taking the test. Some make it, some don't, as it should be. And as it should be for all.
3
The Discovery program is not only short sighted but evidence of the mayor's arrogance and ego run amok. The screening tests are rigorous for a reason - to make sure the entering students are not set up for failure. Rather than lower the bar the city needs to provide a better educational foundation as well as access to quality affordable test prep.
Full disclosure - I am the parent of an elite HS student and an aspiring one.
104
Did you actually read through the article? In one study tracking the average grades of Discovery vs. non-Discovery students, the difference was 0.1% — while it may once have been reasonable to be concerned about whether those with slightly lower scores can thrive at these schools, the evidence we have available shows the opposite. I know you think your kids are special, but they aren’t that special :-)
25
@ted No reason to get personal or sling insults. I disclosed my situation because I know how rigorous not only the admissions process is but also the day-to-day at these schools. While some kids may just miss the mark others don't. Diversity is a good thing but I think the city [read the Mayor] is going about it all wrong which I'm pretty clear about. Save your judgement for someone else.
8
@ted
The 0.1 difference in GPA was for ninth grade only, at Brooklyn Tech only, and under the old standards, where students who just missed getting into a particular school had an opportunity to attend that particular school through the Discovery program. Anyone who has attended, or had kids who have attended, one of the specialized high schools will tell you that the workload gets heavier and expectations higher as you move through, so looking at ninth grade only is insufficient. Also, looking at Brooklyn Tech, which traditionally has one of the lowest cutoff scores, gives you very little insight into how those kids would do at one of the higher scoring schools. This is especially important given the Mayor's plan to allow student who just missed the cutoff for the lowest school to seek admission to any school. A kid who scored 78 points below the Stuyvesant cutoff shouldn't be attending Stuyvesant, in part because it may be a disservice to him or her.
Putting aside how many seats should be reserved for kids in the Discovery program, whatever it is, it should revert to the older system, where kids who just missed the Stuy cutoff have the option of participating in the Discovery program to attend Stuy, those who just missed the Bronx Science cutoff can participate to attend Bronx Science, etc.
But that likely won't achieve the "racial diversity" the Mayor seeks, so it won't happen because he only cares about appearing to do something about education quality.
1
I think it's wonderful to have more diversity at the elite high schools which so clearly underserve black and hispanic students.
I do hope, however, that we are doing everything we can to make sure these students succeed once they're enrolled. We need to provide additional resources at the schools, and not just abandon the students once they've been accepted.
16
@Sparky I worry though that the incentive to help under performing students will exclude the Asian kids, on the reasoning that 'They have test prep centers, anyways'. I can assure you we need just as much help.
11
@Sparky
How does this make any sense? If they need additional resources to survive perhaps they do not belong
7