The argument is not whether abortions will occur, but whether these will be performed in well lit hospital hospitals by doctors or in back alley apartments by amateurs. Sadly, Argentina has opted for the latter; and, given the new makeup of the US Supreme Court, it won't be long until we follow suit. Definitely SAD!
3
I feel that’s Argentina should have abortion available to every women that thinks that they need it. Even though Argentina has abortion legal for women with their lives at risk and the pregnancy was caused by rape, it should be legal for all women. For example, there are many women that do not have the financial stability to sustain a child in there lives. The Catholic Church may think the women maybe fine, there living situation may put their lives at risk.
1
And another win for poverty. When will the world call out the Catholic Church, and in particular this Pope, for enabling poverty with their anti-family planning stances?
1
I read many of these comments. Some of them talk about the trauma that women go through when they can't have an abortion. I didn't see any that addressed the psychological trauma that women go through when they have an abortion.
1
I read a tweet a few hours ago:
I will continue having sex because it's great and i will use protection because i don't want children. And if it fails I will have an abortion because you will not force me to be a mother. Deal with it, and keep walking.
So, nothing changed. My country is run by dinosaurs.
One of them voted no because she didn't read the proyect and said "it would be irresponsible of me to vote yes to a proyect i haven't read". Well, it's pretty irresponsible to have 56 days to read 14 pages and thousands of hours of public debate you could see to know the arguments from both sides.
They are paid 200k a month + privileges and don't do their job.
4
To see this situation in Argentina from a nearby country leads me to associate the scenarios in both countries, which helps to understand things in a wider sense. Our countries are experiencing a conservative wave in population, mainly a backlash for the recent rise of liberal movements and the enpowerment of women, LGBTQ people and the black comunity. Our governments have been through unfair changes in comand motivated by dirty interests strongly bound to those of big corporations and banks. In resume, the lost of the battle for free abortion in Argentina is just part of a solid retrograde process throughout South America. Nevertheless, the battle itself is also part of a process that's rising all over the world, calling people's attention for the necessity of true freedom, true equality and true justice. I fear the retrocess, as it seems to take the charge. But I also hope for the liberation, as I believe in those who fight for advance and in their ideals. No final scores for now, but it's fair to say we support Argentina and, just by trying so hard to reach their goals, Argentina supports us. Together, we say: ni una a menos, nenhuma a menos.
2
At some point, all governments must take the obvious step, and liberate women from such state-sponsored versions of legitimised bondage. What must be illegal, forbidden by law, is any male , ever, being allowed a say in limiting the reproductive choices of women.
3
This was a sad day for Argentina - legalized abortion, does not mean you have to have one, it just means you won't die if you decide to or need to have one.
I'd like to point out to those that say that this decision was made by men - that yes, the majority of those that voted against the law were men; however, 14 women also voted against it. Had 8 of those female senators changed their vote, the law would have passed.
As a result of the no vote, lawmakers are considering adding a clause in the reform of the penal code decriminalizing abortions for women, presented to Congress in the coming months.
The discussion and fight will continue.
5
The so-called pro-life movement doesn't like to talk about the 40,00+ women's deaths per year from botched illegal abortions. There are likely far more, as in many countries, families and doctors fail to report abortion deaths for fear of public shame or arrest. In Argentina, botched abortions are the number one cause of maternal deaths.
Abortions are never illegal for the rich who discreetly fly their daughters to countries with abortion rights to avoid the public embarrassment of an unwanted pregnancy. Choice is as much about equity and women's health and safety as it is a basic human right. Choice shouldn't be the subject of religious debate.
4
Pro lifers cringe when they think about the 60 million lives that have been lost to abortion. And to think the pro abortionists want even more abortions. This is extremely disturbing. If that does not alarm you, nothing will.
Except in cases where pregnancy results from a forced or otherwise nonconsensual intercourse, so-called accidental or unwanted pregnancies are completely preventable in 2018. There is no such thing as "forced-birth" when your own life choices result in a pregnancy. As they say, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
Do Cry for me, Argentina... What a shame!
4
This is a very retrograde move by Argentina. This doesn't have to be a free service provided by the government, but as any person educated in embryology will tell you, before the 3rd week, that "potential life" is as cogniscent as a kidney. Given the conditions in which some women become preagnant and how this can affect the lives of the parents and prospect child, possibly forcing young parents out of school, it is not difficult to see why "pro-choice" advocates do't have baby killing in mind. Instead, the argument is: Let that life be created in the place, time and circumstace where the parents can commit to loving it and caring properly for it. Before or after is detrimental. It is not "limiting the amount of life", women will not have less babies because of proper planning.
8
when it comes to legalizing the murder of unborn people, it is not just a woman's choice. There are others with just as much rights as her's. First aside from rape, the father's right since he is a partner in the pregnancy. then the state has the duty to protect all three, the mother, the child, the father, the state. that's four entities in all. the woman is only the vessel.
3
@markhas
" First aside from rape, the father's right since he is a partner in the pregnancy."
Oh please. What role is the man playing in gestation? What rights exactly do you think a man has to a woman's reproductive organs? (Cough just like a rapist does, cough.)
"the woman is only the vessel."
You heard it here first, folks. The state, the fetus, and the man all have a right to determine how a woman's body is used against her wishes. She's just a vessel.
(Oh right I'm sorry, "pro-life" is about loooooooove)
6
Those who preserve and defend life shall inherit this earth
Don't like abortions? If you're a woman, then don't get one. If you're a man, then don't ever have sex with a woman who's not post-menopausal
10
Where were the “pro life” people when immigrant children were forcibly taken from their parents, put in cages and sexually abused? Hypocrites!
9
Abortion is murder. It shouldn't be called women's rights. Liberals and conservatives both share a zeal for spinning serious issues into slogans and fake natural rights. I'm a Democrat, but against most abortions. You are killing life. Pro-life should also mean anti-death penalty, but people are cherry picking their values these days.
1
I know I am in the minority on this but I will say it anyway. The way Pro-Lifers think of abortion has nothing to do with women's rights. It has all to do with the rights of the unborn. We think that an unborn baby is alive and is human.
If someone who is pro-choice asks someone who is pro-life why they think abortion should be illegal. Their answer, for the most part, wouldn't be that "I don't think that women are capable of making a decision about their own bodies." It would be, "I don't think that women should be able to decide to end the life of another individual (the fetus)."
Many pro-choicers that I've talked to say that unborn babies aren't "alive enough" to be able to be considered human.
I ask them, "What makes something alive?"
"A beating heart, the ability to feel and dream etc."
"So do you consider a fetus alive?"
"Well, I guess but not really"
"But it has all of those characteristics so it must be alive and therefore separate from the mother"
"It's still up to the mother to choose, the baby is in her body" "So the fact that the baby is in the mother makes it not alive?" "It makes it the mother's decision"
"To kill the baby?"
"Sure"
I'm all for women's rights. But I don't consider this one. If men got pregnant I'd feel the same way. If a birth puts a mother's life at risk, have an abortion. Otherwise, don't. If you don't want a baby, use a condom. Don't be reckless, and certainly not twice, 50%! of people who get an abortion have a second one.
2
@Patrick Why not move to Argentina?
2
@Patrick
Cute. Let's try my cross-exam now.
I ask forced-birthers: "Does our society believe that people should be forced to donate organs to someone?"
No, we don't force people to donate organs without their consent.
"Even if the person will die without it?"
No.
"Even if they're innocent and they'll die?"
No.
"Even if they look cute in a onsie?"
No.
"Even if you hit them with your car and they would die without it?"
Still no, we just don't do that.
"What about if the person is dead?"
No, we don't even take organs from dead people without their consent.
"Can a woman be forced to donate blood to her newborn? What about dad?"
No.
"Should a woman compelled to support the life of a fetus with her body in a way that permanently changes it and then undergo a traumatic physical experience/major abdominal surgery to give birth?"
YES OF COURSE! DON'T HAVE SEX IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET PREGNANT!!!111baybeeees!!
"So you think the fetus should have more rights than a born baby? I thought you wanted everyone to have equal rights?"
> > > *blank stare*> > >
"So you think a woman should have fewer rights than a dead body?"
. . . *blank stare*. . .
Psst.. condoms break. A fetus not a baby. Every pregnancy and birth poses a risk to a woman's life. I pick, not you.
4
@C's Daughter
As I said at the end of my comment if the birth poses a risk to the mother then she should have an abortion. Otherwise I don't think it is a prudent decision.
Argentina cannot be a Democracy & Theocracy at the same time.As long as religion has a hold on the Government, Argentina will always be a Banana Republic.I cry for you.
8
I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe when the expression of abject pain and despair on the face of the woman in the lead graphic isn't due to just having lost her child but is due to having just lost the legal right to kill her future offspring.
3
@REJ
It's about options. If a woman decides to have an abortion, she should be able to do so safely.
You can't kill future offspring. Killing is in the present. Contraception does that, by the way.
The picture in this article of nine white men in the halls of power, solemnly conferring with one another and raising their hands as they legislate women's bodies, condemning some desperate women to death by illegal abortion and others to forced pregnancy, birth and parenthood, says it all.
Want to minimize the number of abortions? Support equal work for equal pay and end discrimination against moms in the workplace. Support maternal health care. Support childcare. Support generous parental leave for both men and women. Support sex education in schools. Fight rape culture. Support health care for all. Support children. Fight poverty. Support affordable higher education. Adopt a child. Fight domestic violence and substance abuse.
Compulsory childbirth asserts that women are not fully human. That they are not the most qualified or capable moral agents of their own bodies and lives. That the most sacred and monumental events of life - pregnancy, birth, and parenthood - can be forced upon them by other people who know better.
Keep voting, Argentina, and you will get there. This goes for Americans too!!
13
The images you show are of those women disdaining the rejection of abortion legislation. However, I saw many pix on the web of women cheering that decision.
2
@Cynthia Starks I see three photos that have women in them. One shows several women expressing disdain, one shows a lone woman presumably expressing disdain, and one shows a dozen or more women celebrating the decision.
@Cynthia Starks
What are you talking about? The article shows both parts. There's a pic of the plaza divided in half by colors, there is the picture with the girls wearing green, the pic with people happy wearing blue scarves, the pic of the Senate voting and some pics of protesters. There is also a video from the protest.
1
Do cry for me Argentina! Of course, the Senate rejected to legalize abortion. I say of course, because the corruption of the present government has trespassed the limits of the usual corruption going on in my country: there is no way any "legal", rational law was going to pass. Argentina is sadly living in a democratic dictatorship. The administration of President Macri, the Panama Paper President, and his entire administration -- all with off-shore accounts -- have broken any illusion of having a healthy, robust, and functioning legal system. The head of the Conin Foundation (supported by the Panama Paper President of Argentina), an M.D., rejected the legalization of abortion with “arguments" (if you can call these "arguments") and effectively resuscitated in the Senate floor the role given to women during the Middle Ages. This M.D. even affirmed that the use of condoms did not prevent individuals from getting HIV!
We women of the world are, once again, being cast as nothing more than worthless citizens. This abortion ban is steeped in the retrograde norms of the church and its retrograde hypocrite acolytes want to transform us into secondary citizens. But we won’t be broken. Perhaps our bodies will be controlled by others, but no one can take away who we are, what we are, or our spirit!
10
This is an unfortunate but temporary set-back. There will continue to be abortions in Argentina as there always have been, the only difference being that there will continue to be the expected higher maternal mortality. But some day the prejudices will be overcome, and abortion will be legal and safe. Abortion is a natural and regular occurrence among countless animal species. Sometimes it’s spontaneous, sometimes induced. But there is no species, animal or plant, which preserves every single one of its reproductive elements — its “seeds” — fertilized or unfertilized. Think sperm, millions per ejaculation; think ova, one per month for decades; think marine turtles, with only one of a thousand hatchlings surviving to adulthood; think the row of radishes in your garden. And as for the human species deserving special attention because we are “sacred” or some variation of that idea, many would argue that we have already been arrogant in over-filling the planet with so many copies of ourselves. So, sympathies to the activists who have worked so hard to bring this about in Argentina— but courage! A better outcome is inevitable. George F Gitlitz,MD, Sarasota,FL
14
The NYT published a back cover in favor of abortion a few days ago. The ad was not paid by "grassroots" movements, but by a very powerful international organization.
Plant Parenthood, which also supported the Bill, is clearly not a grassroot organization.
The Bill was a very aggressive project, and was opposed by many Christian groups, not only by the Catholic Church.
I am sorry to see that this prestigious newspaper publishes such an inaccurate reprot
1
@Nora Casiello
Planned Parenthood. No plants involved. Catholicism is a Christian religion, contrary to the belief of the Evangelicals. The NY Times did not advocate abortion, but features stories on the choice of a woman to have an abortion. Choice, Nora. Giving women the power to make their decisions. God given voice to express their choice. To be respected for their choice. I encourage you to re- read the articles that are featured in the NY Times, especially the feature on women who have the courage to share their experience.
5
Draconian measures against abortion may result in the death of many women, but they don't prevent the procedure from taking place. In addition, they have contributed to massive voluntary sterilization.
Total fertility rates are fast falling in Latin American. In fact, they are well below replacement level (2,1 children per woman) in Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Costa Rica, and Uruguay. Argentina and Mexico are rapidly moving in the same direction.
I suspect that sterilization in playing a key role in keeping family size more manageable, including for education purposes. But, as you know, this theme still is taboo.
7
Laws restricting access to healthcare fall into the category of "unjust laws" and we have a moral responsibility to disobey them. We can't legitimize them through obedience and the world can't wait any longer for all people to have access to reproductive healthcare, there's too much at stake for any more waiting.
2
A life is a life. It’s an inconvenient truth for women that the life is in their body. The government has every right to ban murder.
5
@DRS
No. It's an inconvenient truth for the forced-birth advocates that no one can be compelled to let another person use their body against their will. (Just in case you are confused, that includes women, because they are people, too.)
I can't be forced to donate blood to a newborn, can I?
10
@DRS
No. A life is not a life. A miscarriage is not the same as the death of a child. A petri dish containing a fertilized egg is not the same as a newborn baby that you hold in your arms. An embryo the size of the head of a pin is not the same as a woman who loves and laughs and thinks and feels and has her whole life ahead of her to consider.
At least 700 women die each year giving birth in the USA. This is just one of the many "inconveniences" you would mandate for women against their will, but not for yourself.
3
@DRS
You're right. The government should "ban murder." Abolish the death penalty! Government's justifiable murder. A life is a life. No?
Inconvenient truth? It's not inconvenient to carry a pregnancy. It is inconvenient for women, relentlessly, to have to justify her reproductive health from a physician without government's interference.
1
The most fascinating article I have read this week is titled “Argentina’s Senate Narrowly Rejects Legalizing Abortion” by Daniel Politi and Ernesto Londoño.
I was driven towards this article due to my views of abortion and others contrary views of abortion. There has been a recent wave of legalizing a human reproduction right decision known as abortion. Although it would’ve looked as if Argentina would pass Abortion laws due to recent advances by the pro- abortion movement, the Argentinian legislation rejected it by a 38- 31 vote. This was interesting because of the recent advances in the Argentinian Congress abortion has had. As I read through the article, one of the primary reasons that abortion isn't legalized in Argentina is because of the Catholic Church. The article offered a reason for hope for the future afterwards by mentioning the similarities to the gay debate in Argentina. I hope abortion eventually is legalized in Argentina and I believe it will be due to the reasons that similar situations have happened before and the closeness of the vote.
I had one major issue with the article and it was the the title. After one reads the title they would think that abortions are illegal in Argentina, but in the midst of the article the author mentions abortions in Argentina are allowed in cases of rape or if the mother is in danger. Although the title does not directly “misinform” the reader, it is leaves a tremendous gap for the reader to misinterpret the title.
Let those that bear the children vote on their own rights.
6
Abortion is a topic that should be left to the people of the state to make and not the church. In the article Argentina's Senate Narrowly Rejects Legalizing Abortion by Daniel Politti there were major groups of protestors to expand abortion rules. From growing up with the parents I have I believe that if people wish to have an abortion, no matter the circumstance, they have a right to get one. The Church has always been the biggest role against this decision in which I believe should not even be a factor. For people to go to the extent and sit in the cold to protest for this cause you have to take in consideration that they must really want it. If I was in the position some of these people were in I know I would want my voice heard. And I believe the people should have the biggest impact on the rules not the government nor the Church.
1
Politicians interfering with citizen's freedom of choice. Does the Vatican pay them to keep outdated primitive Catholic beliefs about reality intact? Or is this simply about controlling women?
3
Religion controls the mind. People do the most horrendous acts in order to curry favor from whatever imaginary deity they are told to submit to.
CONniving Politicians use religion to scheme votes, sanctimoniously preaching their holier than thou con, but are actually parasites, living off of people's beliefs.
Others burned innocents alive, after binding them to a stake..a worked up crowd cheered approval while the priest announced, above her screams of agony, that the witch's (wise women of nature, herbs and healing) soul was being purified in the flames.
Still others Cut off heads, or would "Stone" another to death.
Manipulators become very wealthy performing the religion game. Many prance on TV or rant on the radio.
Make no mistake, if they can seize power, countless will suffer under their laws.
Just ask the women of Argentina who are forced to serve as breeders for religion.
4
This article called my attention when I was scrolling through headlines on the home page of this website. This is issue that I believe should be decided by the woman in the situation. There can be cases where the woman that is pregnant is not in a situation to be able to raise a child.If they can't the woman should not have to be forced to raise a child and put more pressure on their specific living situation. If a woman was raped they had no choice in if they wanted a child or not. The normal argument against abortion is that is a "murder" as life is taken away even though the baby is not born. I can understand this argument, however this is a choice that needs to be decided by the woman based on that position she is in at that point in her life. In my opinion the decision of abortion needs to be case by case based on that woman.
2
For me, the real argument is that anti-abortion rhetoric is founded in religious belief (as is creationism). Therefore, at least per the US's constitution, it may not become a basis to implement laws in it's behalf. Because when you do, you are now imposing religious laws upon everyone in a government forbidden from doing so.
Belief is personal and self-serving, but governing must balance and protect the interests of the nation as a whole which requires it be a secular institution.
4
@KaneSugar
That's right, KaneSugar. When our politicians are sworn into office they do not swear on our Constitution to uphold the Bible.
They swear on a Bible to uphold the Constitution.
This country has been off the rails ever since "Hobby Lobby" where it was decided that a for-profit business could have views on religion and birth control and that anyone working for them must obey those beliefs stated by that business or go find another job.
In effect, by naming the religious beliefs held by that business as superior to US citizens, the Supreme Court forced all of us to become "Hobby Lobbyists", no matter what religion we preferred or even if we demanded that we be known as atheists.
7
Firs part
Here is an example of supporting abortion covered as reporting. Most of the pictures portray the green position. When it comes to the opponents, in favor of life, you show nuns, priests, churches. The video criticizes the "moral" basis for being against abortion. Is that worse than the amoral basis that supports abortion?
The "grassroots" movement is fueled by Media, powerful political and economic interest, laboratories and all kind of pressure groups. Where the money came from for your whole green page NYT?
"Pressures from the church"? I am not Catholic and Argentina is no longer a Catholic nation, please! The most liberal district, Buenos Aires City, voted on majority against abortion.
The video quotes figures of 350,000 abortions per year being "the first cause of death". These statistics were discarded as real figures come to light. 2016 was the last year with statistics. We had 245 death of pregnant women for all reason this end with 30 and 41 abortions ending in death in that year. Now, every life is worthy. When you see the global causes for death for women, abortion comes 40th So, please stop the number myth!
2
I cry for YOU Argentina ..... Uruguay, right next door, invites you to receive the medical services you need. Uruguay is a secular nation with inclusive laws that address the needs of its citizens, not those of "the" church. Uruguay has been for a long time leading the way in promoting civil rights in Latin America.
2
When are Women going to learn that if "GOD" wanted them to make decisions about THEIR bodies, HE would have made them a Man? Or did I miss something? The Devil made me write that. Not my fault. Whew. Keep fightin' Women. When anyone gets to the point where they think it is THEIR business to tell a Woman what to do with HER Body, because some "GOD" said it's OK, is a CLEAR example of what too much Imaginary Friend in small minds can create. MYOB. Let Women make their own personal and private decisions. Go away. MYOB. Thanks.
10
@BuzzDaly
Oh, I laughed, Buzz, for the first time today.
You're my "Pick" for the day!
3
Glad to see worthwhile principals win over the sort of reproductive hedonism that defines the modern era.
Sex has consequences.
Amazing that adults fail to realize that. No ones stopping you from buying birth control. There's an exception for rape and maternal health already. There are apps that track a woman's fertility.
Forced birth? Sure, but it could just as easily mean "No murder".
3
What on earth are you talking about —“ no one’s stopping you from buying birth control” ! The religious jihad (forgive the mixed metaphor) has been not only against having abortions, but against contraception in any form, and about even educating the young about anything except abstinence! When I was a college student in Connecticut in the ‘50s, the drug stores didn’t sell condoms! The Heavy Hand of Religion still grinds, the most recent evil consequence of which is the epidemic of Zika-caused microcephalic babies in South America because the women don’t have ready access to abortion. George F Gitlitz, MD
5
@LRExeclent reason LR:
Without being disrespectful to your person LR, I want just to mention that you are actually attacking the people but you don't give any argument whatsoever fir being against legal abortion, unless you consider this an "argument" "Sex has consequences!
3
@Maita Moto
For the most part, sex has consequences only for women. Very sad.
It is painful to see the photo of Argentine senators on the abortion debate: all men, discussing the state's control over a body part they don't possess, on an issue that is overwhelmingly burdensome on women alone.
9
O Happy Day! May all the nations on earth reject abortion and the taking of innocent human life.
2
Time to roll out the big gun: the Lysistrata Option.
3
Why is it that only women are supposed to be the responsible ones, while men cannot be bothered to put a condom on?
Where is the pill for men? If men have a problem with abortions, then get a vasectomy or stop ejaculating!
8
The so-called 'pro-life' movement is not interested in women's lives, their health or the welfare of their existing children.
Only in their breeding capacities.
The Catholic Church's continued opposition to reliable contraception - and not just to abortion - says it all.
7
@Oriole It's about control Oriole! The church want to keep us women under their control, that's all. Of course, corrupt governments as the one of President Macri (aka Panama Papers ) used the church as their "moral" standard under which they covered their own corruption.
2
Second part
Proponents of abortion insisted in "Free (yes totally free, unrestriceted and upon demand), Legal and Secure," and immediate (the Bill gave five days to do the abortion if not, prosecution and even jail will be faced).
This is hardly possible in a health system in the crisis like the one we have. Hospitals are not in conditions and are overcroweded. People have to wait during weeks and month for a study . We are lacking anesthesysts. Outised of larger cities there are but few suregoens and spcialists trained to perform abortion.
Let's face the fact: this was a very bad law. And worse, did not dealt with the casuses of the real issue. In a remote jungle lot of people gather to study the massive death of fishes that threatened the live of the village. Money and experts were brougth and lot of programmes impleemted without succes.
Fimally a group of people decided to leave the village and went uphill to the source of the river. They were sever criticsed. When they got to the source, they discover the cause of the death down stream.
Abortion is trying to resolve the end problem, we need to go to the sources.
Daniel Bianchi
6
@Daniel
Daniel the problems you name are much worse since your president, the Panama Papers Mr. Macri, end all social programs, destroying not only the health system but the university system, the legal system. So, let's get to the root of the problem: the entire corruption of this administration at all levels (And no, let Ms Kirchner aside, I amo not defending her either but she is a tool for blaming the other).And, Daniel don't forget Mr Macri was a partner in the dubious real state deals of Mr. Trump in the 1970s. There is long schooling here which should be taken into account. Respectfully, Maita
@Daniel
yes, you might be right, but most of the people that opposed this law, specially the senators, are those that never care about the "sources" of the problem, meaning, education, prevention, fight against poverty , etc.
What bothers me the most about the "salvemos las dos vidas" is the hypocrisy. I have not heard one proposal about how to do that, And previous government plans for sexual education have been dismantled, so forget about prevention
Also let me remind you that nowadays, most abortions do not involve anesthesia or and OR. It is done with a pill. So that old story about the crowded hospitals and lacking anesthesiologists is ridiculous.
7
@Daniel
Nobody within the "salvemos las dos vidas" group has introduced any piece of legislation in that regard.
They never explained what they found wrong with the premises of their counterparts regarding sexual education to improve choice and contraception to prevent abortion. Both sex ed and contraception availability in public hospitals have been passed by law more than a decade ago but never were completely implemented.
It would be interesting to know the gender breakdown of those who voted for and those who voted against.
1
Religion should have NO place in trying to dictate or influence governments....governments which rule people who hail from a wide variety of viewpoints, lifestyles and religions (or no religion at all).
6
Once again, sadly,the Catholic Church triumphs; in victimizing those who are a threat to their power. Women. Through out history, the Catholic church and its Popes have a tight grip on those governments that promote the message of obedience and control. Powerful women have been criticized, ostracized and burned all in the name of religion, while powerful men have been protected by the Vatican. This Argentinian born Pope denounced abortion as modern-day ‘white glove’ eugenics. He professes to protect family. His view that the "unborn are considered unworthy of protection and dignity by a society that prizes instead individual prowess." Individual prowess? This is from a man who individually has the audacity to keep the choice of abortion from his family; the Catholic women of Argentina.
7
Hurray for Argentina! Of course women should not be punished for this horrible act. It takes two to tango. What price are men paying in this "process"? It is not only about denying an unborn child his or her opportunity to survive; it is about MEN and WOMEN taking responsibility for their actions. Children do pay the price for the actions of their parents. Cutting their lives short is the ultimate example.
I was born and still live in Argentina. Some of the arguments I've heard in the past month against safe abortion (many of them on the very senate floor) are bewildering. But one that stings me the most, because of its duplicitous nature, is the empty slogan "let's save both lives".
For those who have used it and celebrated this temporary setback for women's -and human- rights: you haven't saved a single life. Quite the opposite. Women of means will continue to carry out abortions in private clinics, which make huge profits since it's all unregulated and silence is part of the fee. Women without means will continue to attempt abortions in the worst of conditions, and many of them will suffer terrible consequences to their health or die.
Not many years ago, the church was up in arms when campaigns againts HIV-AIDS gave out condoms. Yes, they were (and still are for the most part) against condoms. A few years ago, they fiercely opposed legalizing gay marriage. In the 80's, when President Raúl Alfonsín gave way to divorce laws, they heralded the end of society.
People that claim to be pro-life in this country, for the most part, are the same people that say that poor women have children solely for the purpose of collecting welfare. The same people that vie for lowering the minimum age of imprisonment.
This was not about allowing abortions. This law was about ending women's suffering and putting a stop to needless deaths. You haven't saved a single life. Quite the opposite.
55
@Alejandro This is a repeated, but falacious argument. Abortion should be an extreme measure. Otherwise, women should not abort, either legally or illegally. Personally, I do not think that a woman should be sent to jail because of an abortion (and this has not happened in Argentina for decades, to say the least).
But the argument that "people would do it anywasy" could be used to refer to murder, theft, domestic violence, etc., all of which continue to take place even though they are illegal. Should we legalize them just because they happen?
1
@Alejandro Well said!
2
@Nora Your argument is ridiculous. You have no concern for the desperate women who are seeking a safe way to terminate accidental pregnancies. Compassion would be a good prism through which to view this issue.
3
Update: Since this article was published, the Argentine government is confirming it will include decriminalization of abortion in the reform of the penal code. Women would no longer be threatened with jail for having an abortion though abortions would only continue to be legally available in case of rape or if the mother's health was in danger. After what has transpired in Argentina in recent months, the subject of legalized abortion will continue to be debated in the entire region with even more determination to legalize abortion. Change is coming. And it is about time. It is important to grasp the precedent set by the fact the bill passed in the Argentine House (Camara de Diputados). Narrowly but it passed. And then it was narrowly rejected in the Senate.
25
The pro-life movement has nothing to do with saving babies. It is about controlling women.
36
Yah.. Saving the life of a defenseless infant is people trying to control women. How exactly is that controlling a Woman anyway? Free to do anything a Man can do, but they're being controlled. Logic much? #WomenAreTheDownfallOfWesternCivilization
1
@Scot
You appear to be confused. Embryos and fetuses are not infants.
People like yourself believe that woman should be forced to give birth against their wills-- i.e., controlled. This is very simple; you have no business insulting someone else's logical reasoning. I hope this information helps you calm down and comfortable turning your attention back to your own life and away from what women are doing with their reproductive organs.
"#WomenAreTheDownfallOfWesternCivilization"
You heard it here first, folks. This is how "pro-life" men view women.
4
@Scot
The difference between an "embryo" and an "infant"?
About 9 months.
2
This just goes to show the stronghold the Catholic church still has on Latin America. It’s their last stand. And they are determined to win this war by opposing abortion, birth control, womens rights and of course by promoting the concept of having as many kids as humanly possible. It’s the only way this religion will survive.
14
@Josue Azul Excellent point. You are exactly right. The Catholic Church is realizing how disenchanted many people have become, not only of their church, but religion as a whole. So by continuing to talk about what 'blessings' each and every child is, and urging their congregants to procreate, it will indeed provide more bodies for their pews, and more dollars for their coffers.
6
Abortion will remain a controversial issue until such time as women are given their total and complete dignity, respect, and honor deserving of every human being.
We need to stop fooling ourselves. This is a patriarchal society where men still think they know what's best. I am a Catholic who loves his faith but the Catholic Church remains the worst offender of all when it comes to patriarchal domination.
22
@Mike
The pro-life movement in Argentina is propelled primarily by women.
4
@Pablo
In a patriarchal society a woman only gains power by upholding whatever it is that the patriarchal man wants.
Let her disagree and she will find that her "power" has evaporated.
I have no idea what @Mike is saying. He states that his church is "the worst offender of all" and yet he claims that he loves his faith.
I suspect that I'm an atheist for the same reason he is a "believer".
1
@Pablo
Don't bother Pablo. As true as that is, it doesn't fit the "women's rights" narrative abortion advocates use to muddy the argument
I came here to make negative comments about this situation in Argentina and was thrilled to see the amount and eloquence of what people have written. In particular, I very much enjoyed someone calling the "right to life" crowd (a name that seems positive) "forced birth". Beautiful! Thank you, NYT, for collecting and sharing thoughts of enlightened humans
20
Those photos were infuriating: of the male senate "deciders", the young women protesting for their rights, the celibate nuns protesting those rights, the woman doctor refusing to consider the actual survival of poor, desperate women patients.
16
@Ellen
These photos do a poor job of representing reality. Argentina has a large number of female senators, many of whom voted against the measure.
1
So was there legislation increasing support for birth control? maternal care? orphans? parents with children who are profoundly disabled? equal pay for women? adoptions by both gay and straight parents? Does Argentina allow "culling or reduction" in situations where a woman has undergone fertility treatment that has multiple "takes" and who doesn't want multiples? Reading some of the comments that this is protecting the unborn, I say, how are you protecting the "born"?
52
A "mass for life" in BA's central cathedral? That's rich.
Every time a new pope is chosen, he has the opportunity with one sentence to change the world, to alter the trajectory of mankind toward the extinction-level threats of human overpopulation and environmental degradation. By simply stating that artificial birth control is not a sin, that Satan himself is not behind the manufacture and sale of condoms and IUDs, the lives of billions would be changed for the better. If the RCC wants to see fewer abortions performed worldwide, maybe give the ordinary people of South America, equatorial Africa and the Philippines control over their fecundity.
Every pope fails to do this.
85
@Julian Fernandez It has never been about the good of humanity. It has always been about control of a woman's body to put more seats in the pews and money in the Vatican. They will never change this stance. It is their payday.
20
Reproductive rights are a fairly new concept in the long book of human history. However, it is a right. The right to determine when a person would like to begin to reproduce. To force another fellow human being to reproduce is a form of taking hostage. It is to take hostage of her body and condemn her to carry another life even if she, for whatever reasons, does not want to. To force someone to give life is an act of taking hostage.
It is also another page in the long saga of just who owns the reproductive body. It is the state assembly, a group of legislators who decide what she can choose to do with her own body. It is a kind of bio-politics is reflective that of a single party state, one that demands human reproduction like any other goods. A process like the factory assembly, devoid of any sympathy. The pregnant woman is thus nothing but a vessel, carrying goods. Not another human with complex psychological matrix, with the right to self determination, and the agency of her body. She is nothing more than a machine. She does have wants, needs, feelings, relationships, careers, and such. She is labeled as a pregnant woman, and nothing else until she fulfill her socially prescribed duty of giving birth.
If human life is truly precious, then everyone must have right over their own body, no exceptions. To have no control over your own body is to have your bodily rights chained to the whims of a group of legislators, or clergymen, or society.
78
@Anym
Thank you. You have stated it perfectly!
10
@Anym
So what about the "rights'' of the human body in the womb?
@Diana
No one has the right to use my body, including my uterus.
Simple.
1
That any country in South America could allow its religious patriarchal domination to be modified is fanciful at best. The nub of keeping women in their place is ignorance and religion, (same thing really), particularly Catholicism in the west and Islam in the east. It's of men, by men and for men, only.
32
@Anthony Taylor
Hello fellow Palm Beach County resident! :)
I agree with your statement that it's "of men, by men, and for men, only."
Contraception and birth control allow men to treat women as nothing more than sex objects, because the consequences of promiscuous sex have been completely removed! Until we see the end of the use of birth control, and the restoration of respect for women as HUMAN BEINGS, this problem will continue.
The birth control advocates, in their attempt to equalize society for men and women, have actually done more damage to the women's rights movement than any other group.
2
@Jack
"promiscuous sex" - judgemental much? It's not promiscuous when men have it.
1
@Jack
Maybe you should just treat women better?
Maybe we don't curtail women's rights so that men are coerced into treating them better with "consequences"?
Maybe you should wake up and realize that men treated women poorly before abortion was legalized, too, and that abortion is not the cause of men's poor treatment of women?
I don't really think that men treated women better back when women didn't have abortion and birth control.... we couldn't really work outside the home in the same way we do now, couldn't have credit cards without our husband's approval, when marital rape was still legal and domestic violence wasn't prosecuted..... You didn't respect women then. You viewed us as property.
1
Good morning dear audience. I congratulate all senators in Argentina who vote NO. I think life start in the very moment of conception. We should defend life from the begining. Have a great day!
8
@hugoegonzalez. Well it is your country...but not everyone agrees with you. So, if you are a woman, and get pregnant, don't have an abortion. If you are a man, you cannot ever understand. In either case, you have no right to impose your beliefs upon me.
8
@hugoegonzalez What about the lives of the women dying from illegal abortions? Can't call oneself "pro life" while advocating that women die.
18
@hugoegonzalez So are you going to pay for all those children who usually come from the poor who cannot afford to have them to begin with? Are you willing to pay for their welfare? Most people who are anti-abortion do not want to spend their money or their time to help raise these children who are often unwanted, born out wedlock, the result of a youthful indiscretion, the result of rape, or threaten the life of the mother. Yet, anti-abortion people talk about the value and preciousness of life. Hypocritical to say the least.
25
Hogwash.
I don't believe anyone who proclaims they are against abortion, that EVERY fetus is precious and adored by them.
I'll prove it.
I'm 70. My "days of reproduction" are over.
However, it covered the span of 37 YEARS.
My personal capacity was 37 children.
A child a year, for 37 years.
So, let's say that at age 11 that I started having one child, once a year.
(All of us know that this can happen because Argentina has "unwed mother homes" filled with 10 and 11 year old girls, usually raped by the males living in their own homes.
These "unwed mother homes" are run by the Catholic Church or evangelical churches - because life is so precious to them.... but only someone else's "life", not these little girl's.)
At 11 I have 1 (one) child.
My education is over, I have no skills.
Now I'm 20 - I have 9 children.
Is everyone still patting me on the back?
Am I still wonderful?
Has the government started grumbling yet?
Is my priest thrilled to see me and the "9"?
Now I'm 30.
My family is now almost 20 and I'm pregnant again.
No one is speaking to me, even my priest.
I'm 40.
There are 30 of us in our pews.
I'm 47, pregnant with my last child.
At 48 I will cease to reproduce.
37 children, all born to an uneducated, no resources female.
So, let's get real.
You know that at 3 that there were howls to sterilize me.
At 5 (age: 16) even the priest was shopping for a tubal.
At 10 my town would find a hit man.
What's YOUR number?
How many did YOU demand I have?
37?
Doubt it.
29
@rosa How much money does the Catholic Church receive for housing these young pregnant women? Hmmm.
9
@tennvol30736
Well, tennvol, I suspect not enough to pay off the abuse settlements won by the little boys.
1
There's that old truism I enjoy for the anti-abortion types: Don't like abortions? Then don't get one. But it probably needs to be expanded to encompass men: Don't like abortions? Don't ever have sex with a woman who's not post-menopausal, lest she fall pregnant and exercise her right over what happens with her own body.
There are really only two things that need to be remembered when it comes to this debate: An unwanted child is a heinous punishment for sex (because let's face it, that's what it is), for both the mother and the child.
And you cannot prevent abortions. You can only prevent safe abortions.
Personally I think it's time women of the world considered the Lysistrata solution.
39
@Cat King
Counter-truism : don't like murder, don't kill
: don't like slavery, don't own one
But never interfere with anyone else's ability to kill or own slaves- its a personal right
2
For shame Argentina. And for shame that there are only 62 comments in response to this article and zero women’s marches or protests outside of the Argentinian consulates around the US. We are hypocrites.
9
@SW. IN fact, to defend the feminist perspective on abortion in ARgentina, there was a women's gathering at Mission street BART on 24th St in SF on Tuesday evening; before that, there was a huge gathering in NYC at Washington Square Park. And the largest gatherings were in Brazil and Mexico, and in several European capitals. We stand behind our argentine sisters, we follow the news closely, and though the vote was lost in the SEnate this time, the pro abortion movement will see a law enacted most certainly in 2019. NOthing can stop the Latin American women's movement; it is a model for all of us
1
I was surprised to read through this article and find not a word about the status of contraception as a whole. The two issues always need to be jointly addressed because. It is one of the main goals of the right to deprive women of the right to contraception along with abortion rights. The two things are inextricably linked.
27
@RT Both
There is no problem getting contraception in Argentina. Our daughter lives in Buenos Aires.
4
Terms like "abortion rights" and "reproductive rights" are based in US legal concepts of unenumerated rights and judicial review. They mean nothing in the Argentine situation, where the argument is whether the legistlature should make abortion legal or not.
5
To me, regardless of one's personal stance on the morals of the issue, this is the most salient point from the article:
"Mr. Macri’s health minister, Adolfo Rubinstein, testified in Congress in favor of legalization and has estimated that some 354,000 clandestine abortions are carried out every year in the country. Complications as a result of those abortions are the single leading cause of maternal deaths in the country."
Abortions happen whether they are legal or not. (Effective contraception programs can help lower the number, but it will never be zero.) The legalization question comes down to whether the government of a country would rather control women's bodies even though many will die as a result, or allow women to control their own bodies.
34
for people saying "pro-lifers shouldn't force their beliefs down other people's throats"--the argument hinges on the baby's life. (Hold your "it's not a baby!" argument for a moment; this is the other side.)
If a woman wants to get rid of her tonsils, gallbladder, cut off her foot--that's her choice. It's her body.
The MOMENT you have another human being in the question, it's not only her body. And that is the reason we get concerned. The question of personhood is messy if/when you deny its beginning at conception; if not then, when? When a baby is viable? What does that mean? Where is that line?
Women deserve better choices than abortion. She shouldn't have to choose between her baby and the career she wants. It's time for a major shift in parental support, our foster and adoption systems. It's time for a change in how we see sexuality: sex is designed to procreate, contraception can fail, and pregnancy is a natural outcome.
It's time for men to be gentlemen and stop using women for sex. It's time for women to stop believing the lie that their self esteem hinges on who finds them attractive. And it's time for everyone to sit down and find the things we agree on. That's the only way this will move forward.
8
@Kayla Irrelevant. If that other "human being" is using your body without your consent, you have the right to remove it.
13
@Kayla - "It is not a baby" is very relevant to this discussion. The Catholic church considers the moment of conception when a Zygot is formed is when life begins. So that again is why the Catholic Church is trying to stop women from having any choice. They are even against contraception. Unfortunately again, men dominate the Church hierarchy and it is they who make rules for women.
18
The question of personhood is not messy. It is simple, clear and supported by thousands of years of legal precedence. A person is recognized as such at birth. Your registry of live birth is the first temporal recognition of your existence. Your birth, not your conception, decides your citizenship. For as long as you live, you will never be asked for your DOC(date of conception).
20
Monty from Vicenza argues that women are treated as reproductive chattel, thus fulfilling Pope Paul VI's prophecy as outlined in Humane Vitae. Paul VI predicted that the rise of birth control and other contraceptives would lead not to the liberation of women, rather, to their enslavement by men, who, having all consequence stripped away from sex, would view women as nothing more than objects with which to fornicate.
In our arrogance, we stray from God...
3
@Jack so true.
The Church teaches that women are of infinite value; beautiful, cherished, daughters of God. True Christian men would sooner be physically hurt defending a woman than let them her come to harm.
Meanwhile, other "men" see fit to exploit women and use them for sex, disregarding their hearts, minds, and very selves. They are doing the harming. Yet they laugh at teachings that call on them to be honorable and act like gentleman.
I'll take men with morals, thank you very much.
9
@Jack " In our arrogance, we stray from God..."
I am afraid you are right look at how many evangelicals voted for trump
15
I never ask for or wish to be put on a pedestal-it too is a form of imprisonment. I just want to be recognized as human with full autonomy as such. Free from fear of men and a valued, contributing member of society.
2
The Argentine Senate is made up primarily of men. They don't relate to what females experience. Vote the men opposing abortion out of office. It is proper to let the people decide the issue of whether abortion should be the law of the land...not the Catholic Church.
29
@dbsweden
Inaccurate. There are many senators who are women, half of whom voted against the measure.
3
@dbsweden, not true at all! Check your numbers, please.
1
So cruel religious zealots who want to force women to have children they don't want have prevailed again. As for Francis and the Catholic hierarchy, they are such hypocrites about abortion, if they were truly anti-abortion they would be big fans of birth control. What they are really about s forcing their religion on everybody. Next time they get pregnant, have the child but let my family make their own choices.
As for me, I'll protest by no longer buying Argentine wines.
24
I would like to thank all those New York Times readers who are commenting in support of this senate bill being rejected in Argentina. It is so wonderful to know that there are people who are against abortion. This should give those in the pro life movement hope and encouragement that people still feel life is important. A baby's life especially. They have value and worth and are precious. We will continue this important cause with excitement and strength.
3
@WPLMMT
The bill passed in the House. It was defeated in the Senate by a close vote. However, the Macri administration is weighing decriminalizing abortion in the reform of the legal code. Women would no longer face prison for having an abortion.
3
@WPLMMT Anti-choice. Not pro-life. It is a fact that countries who outlaw abortion have more of them. What, and "who," has been saved?
5
@WPLMMT
Get real, WPLMMT.
My child-bearing capacity was 37.
I would have been a high-school drop-out with no skills, no money, just a uterus.
I have never yet met an anti-abortionist who didn't have an opinion on EXACTLY how many children I was to have - and it was NEVER 37!
Seriously?
You think that a drop-out having 37 children is A-OK with you?
REALLY?!?
2
Why is it that men and the churches they lead get to vote over the bodies, futures, and reproductive lives of women? Because women are not free in Argentina and many countries (including many parts of U.S.). If you don't have easy, affordable access to birth control and abortion, you are not free. If you do not own your body, you are not a free. Your life is worth less than a man's in every way. You make even make less money because you can become pregnant whether or not you want a child. Having a child should be a choice, a choice that a family makes. What if a man decides that he does not want responsibility for the child he helped to create? What typically happens? Well, nothing to him. Poverty for woman and child. What happens if a family already has a child or two and doesn't want another one? Too bad, they have no choice. What happens if woman is raped? If the child has a terrible disability? Too bad, life sucks when you have no freedom. As a woman who is pro-life for the born, perhaps bio-technology and better forms of birth control will help us better manage sexism in the 21st century, so that we can reduce poverty and provide more choice for already born women and men.
21
@Dr. Conde
"Why is it that men and the churches they lead get to vote over the bodies, futures, and reproductive lives of women?"
It's called democracy. Don't women in Argentina have the right to vote?
3
@Dr. Conde. Respectfully, you should try living in another country if you think women anywhere in the US are not free. Abortion is the law of the land, and birth control is widely available.
2
@SW
Maybe abortion is the law of the land and birth control is widely available in SFO, but you should take a look around the rest of the USA, especially in the southern parts. That's simply not true. Abortion rights have been under attack and are being restricted in many places. Just ask the women's rights defenders over at Planned Parenthood. They can fill you in.
1
Women will win and a ortionwill be legal while violence against women will be taken seriously and criminalized. The click is ticking and the bachelor party in all branches of government is ending!
9
Disgraceful. The ones opposing abortion need not have one. And should perhaps ponder on what they would think if they themselves, their daughter or a good friend was raped and became pregnant.
20
@Sten Moeller
The only way that a rape case can be more saddening is if one adds to it the murder of an innocent child.
1
@Jack
Feel free to gestate and birth all the babies that are raped into your body, Jack.
Being forced to carry a rapist's baby is a disgusting violation of a woman's bodily autonomy. A woman is not a "rape case," although I see why you felt the need to use language to erase the woman's experience from the picture to make your point. No one cares if you are "saddened" by the abortion of a rapist's fetus. You do not get to determine what outcome is sadder. What matters is that the woman is relieved of a tremendous burden and regains autonomy over her body. Who cares if Jack in Palm Beach Florida thinks it's sad that an eight week old embryo dies? You're talking about a real woman who is sentient and has a life and emotions who does not wish to be forced to undergo the extensive physiological changes that attend pregnancy, including side effects like constant vomiting, fatigue in the healthiest pregnancies, or risk the side effects like preeclampsia, placental previa, gestational diabetes, anemia, stroke, kidney infection, sepsis, depression, or heart failure...
and then at the very end of it be forced to endure 8-40 hours of excruciating labor and a vaginal birth, or major abdominal surgery. All to have a child she never wanted with the worst person in the world.
But hey, at least Jack in Palm Beach is happy.
10
@C's Daughter
Everything happens for a reason; God does not commit evil but he allows it to happen. In our arrogance, we think that we have the autonomy to interfere with God's grand plan for us which extends far past our temporal experience on earth.
Just to clarify my position, a woman should be allowed to have an abortion if the woman is at risk of losing her life.
But how is a woman's medical difficulties justification for murder? The worst earthly suffering imaginable pales in comparison to the taking of an innocent life.
And I don't know why you say "at least Jack in Palm Beach is happy". Rape is never a joyous occasion, nor is abortion.
Have a blessed day,
Jack
Sad that so many still confuse misogyny for "morality."
20
Tremendous victory for basic human rights in Argentina!
8
@Jonathan Stensberg Quite the opposite, actually. Women are dehumanized by forced childbirth.
28
@Jonathan Stensberg
It appears as if you approve banning abortion. If so, you are letting men determine what a female does with her own body.
15
@Jonathan Stensberg. Yes, rights for a handful of cells, but not if they turn out t be female cells.
25
Those whose religious beliefs are against abortion, should follow their convictions. But they have no right to foist their own moral and religious beliefs down other women's throats. For a start men should have no vote or say in something that deeply impacts women. Both carrying a baby to full term or having an abortion. Others do not have a right to judge a women who chooses to abort the fetus. If there is a serious genetic disorder or the pregnancy is the result of rape who are we to condemn these women to years of suffering? I can't believe that in this day and age women still have to fight for their rights. When it comes to controlling women, there is no difference in Christian or Islamic beliefs.
89
@Ben But if a woman with an unplanned pregnancy refuses to have an abortion that a man is in favor of, the man can look forward to 20 years of forced financial support. In essence, the woman is foisting her moral and religious beliefs on the man, and it's backed up by law. Doesn't seem fair. How about a little equity?
2
@Dino
You are incorrect. The woman isn't foisting any beliefs on that man, the State has decided that the born child has the right to be cared for and that equity demands we look to the parents (both parents, not just the man) before we look to the tax payers.
Also, you appear to be confused-- financial support and forced use of a person's body are not equivalent. If they were, then taxes would be impermissible in the same way that slavery is impermissible.
I hope this explanation clears up your deep confusion about the issue and resolves your concerns about equity.
3
@Ben
Why should men have no say in something that deeply impacts women? God created women and men to live in harmony; we must not sow seeds of division.
2
I watched the long debate and I am deeply disappointed with the result. Moreover the meddling of the Catholic Church in state and legislative matters is particularly enraging. Argentina should have followed the example of Uruguay where abortion was legalized in 2012. Despite the loss, the struggle has gained significant momentum and will deliver a victory in the future, no doubt about it.
26
Physicians in Argentina put it well but succinctly in messages to the Senate: "I'm a doctor, not a murderer."
11
@JOHN It is time to reserve 50% of medical seats for women, so the Physicians body is more representative. Likewise in the Argentinian Parliament. This November more than 50% of the Democratic Representatives in the US Congress will be women. Watch how the house functions.
3
As a pro-life woman I'm glad some countries still protect the preborn.
12
Megan M...as a pro-choice man, I'm sickened that medieval, misogynistic, patriarchal religions still dictate public policy and federal control of women's body parts.
It's 2018....not 1218.
50
@Socrates Well said.
@Megan M
If a fetus is a "preborn" then am I a "predead"?
33
This is such an emotional issue for so many. I think of the "just war" theory of the Catholic church where there is an acknowledgement that killling is wrong but under certain circumstanes war is the lesser of two evils (think Hitler).
Might a woman choose,for example, not to give birth when she has a high probability of giving birth to a baby affected by the zika virus? Might that not also fall in the same grey area? Shouldn't she be the one to have a choice?
No doubt in my mind that the woman will have the primary responsibility and the heartache of such a birth. Yet the primary decision- making about this seems to rest with the men.
17
Some good news on the NYT front page, for a change. Even if it is only the website page.
13
NYC restricts commuter choice, while Argentina restricts a mother’s choice.
In both cases compassion for some and less choice for others rules the day! Yay! Why isn’t this being celebrated? I understand that reproductive choice may be our cultural preference up here in North America, but Compassionate Governments that take care of the vulnerable by restricting choice should be celebrated, not criticized! No matter what they do, or where they are!
This is what a Compassionate State looks like. This is progress!
4
@Trans Cat Mom What? A nation forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies is in absolutely no way comparable to a city limiting the number of Ubers.
21
@Trans Cat Mom There is ZERO compassion in forcing childbirth on the unwilling. It's obscene and it kills women.
19
Miracles do happen. Unbelievable that in an era in which we actually can save babies at only 21 weeks, we are still allowing some women to kill their unborn children. Abortion is murder.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/861386001
12
As a pro life woman, this is such wonderful news. Fetuses in the womb will now be saved from the evil of abortion. I was so certain that they would legalize abortion in Argentina; but when I heard the bill had been defeated, I was elated. I wish I could have been in Argentina to celebrate with those who fought this good fight.
This proves that those of us who are against abortion must never give up. Those of us in the pro life movement still have our work cut out for us here in the US and this victory gives us a renewed sense of hope. Our efforts are never in vain.
14
@WPLMMT
Civilization, decency, and truth win. Ireland chose barbarism.
3
The comments of many conservatives in the NY comments section across many articles and issues concerning people's ability to live a healthy and happy life betray their beliefs not as "pro life", but rather as forced birth, since they oppose almost everything that helps people sustain their life after birth. From health care to education to the environment to protection from those who would harm their health, happiness, and finances.
A pro life stance would extend well beyond the moment of birth to the life of a person to their elderly years. Many of the comments on other issues by WPLMMT and other conservative commenters indicate that pro life only meant to insure birth, not life. They champion the church's stance on birth but not the Christian loving and caring for the life that follows.
60
@WPLMMT Please tell us specifically how you and the pro-life movement are working to economically assist single mothers and underprivileged children worldwide, in terms of their education, long-term health and welfare. Also please explain the pro-life movement's plan to integrate young single mothers into the professional workforce. Finally, please explain the pro-life position on the father's role in caring for the unwanted child and the pro-life plan on how to enforce shared responsibility, globally.
44
Forced birth. It should be called what it is.
While conservatives cry out about the left forcing them to accept the freedom of others as an imposition on their rights, forced birth is an example of of the real force that is exhibited by the right: requiring people to live by their beliefs, the imposition of one faith on all, whether members or not of their faith.
119
.@Marie
well expressed
7
@Marie Agree. The picture of those old men voting makes me sick. What they are voting on has literally no impact on their daily lives, but will force over 300k women each year to seek illegal abortions that will injure, maim, or kill some of them. The patriarchy continues to thrive across the world.
26
Marie,
We in the pro live movement call it pro woman. I would also add it is pro baby.
1
i'm originally from argentina. i'm deeply saddened by this outcome and would've been so proud of the country where i grew up had it legalized abortion.
i'm still proud though --gay marriage has been legal in argentina nationwide for more than 8 years (legislatively, not judicially). the abortion bill passed the house and was only a few votes short in the senate. a center-right president who personally opposes abortion would've been willing to sign the bill had it passed. none of those things would be possible in my adoptive country --could anybody even conceive a republican president signing a bill legalizing abortion nationwide?
not to worry argentina, there will be another abortion bill in the next 5 to 10 years, and the outcome will be different then.
55
@guillermo You’re right to be proud. It’s a shame they didn’t pass it but it’s a beautiful thing to see this activism and progress.
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@guillermo respectfully, reproductive rights have been determined by the courts in the US to be a fundamental right, and they are not determined by a president. As a naturalized American, you should know this salient fact.
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@guillermo
No, Argentina should worry. The number of deaths of women in the next 5 to 10 years that this bill could have prevented will be staggering.
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I wish this story had included how many senators are women. If the photo is representative, the decision is another infuriating example of men maintaining their rule over women's most basic rights. Women have always borne the burden of continuing the human race, paying with their lives and health. They're the ones who have cared for the children. But instead of respect for their sacrifice, they're treated as reproductive chattel.
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there's actually quite a significant number of women senators in argentina. sadly, many of them voted against the abortion bill.
https://www.lanacion.com.ar/2160090-debate-por-el-aborto-segui-el-conteo...
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There are 30 female senators and 42 males. Among female senators, 14 voted against legalization and 14 for, with 2 absences or abstentions. Among male senators it was 24 against to 17 for, with 1 abstention. This is from the Argentine newspaper Clarin.
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The article did explicitly break down the Senate vote by sex...
Abortion issues go hand in hand with social injustices towards women. The inequality of women's rights in a heavily machismo and Catholic region hampers progress. Each side will speak to walls but if the focus is placed bbn kn surrounding issues then maybe there will be more bbn progress.
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The recent episode by This American Life on this subject is really interesting and gives an insightful look at this conflict.
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