And an Atheist applauds.
3
I assume the Papacy is not a desireable responsibility for every cardinal, especially American ones. Organizational experience leaves me believing this time the College of elector Cardinals filled the papal vacancy with an ideologue reacting to the last Bishop of Rome. Remember, he wore Prada.
Strange irony that people who support the death penalty should condemn the Catholic Church for burning people at the stake centuries ago. How is this different than the electric chair, firing squad, lethal injection, hanging, etc.? The methods have changed and yet the mindset seems to be the same. I think Pope Francis is trying to save lives as well as souls. Either our lives are precious or worthless. It cannot be both.
6
Reading all the comments, it appears that the Catholic Church and I are the only non-hypocrites: they are against abortion & the death penalty, whereas I support both (with reasonable small-print).
1
Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air in a polluted world. Death Penalties are barbaric. Unfortunately Evangelicals consider it justice under the Old Testament and ignore the words of Jesus in the New Testament.
10
@Philip W Exactly. I don't understand how Evangelicals can so readily toss the New Testament (aka the teachings of Jesus) out the window and still think of themselves as Christians.
4
Jesus on the death penalty; "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."! No exceptions listed, no part b, no equivocations, etc.
8
@Mr. K. ... well, there's stealing a candy bar because you live on the streets and you're starving, all the way on up to serial murders/mutilating rapists or being the one to authorize genocide. There ARE exceptions, as far as I'm concerned.
2
@Mr. K. There are gradations of sin. If you believe in that sort of thing. Hmmmm. Murder vs. little white lie? I Think if i am guilty of the latter, i can cast a stone at the former.
2
@Mr. K.
Jesus Christ prayed at Gethsemane. There is no narrative which asserts that he argued against the death penalty, with his Father, Romans, Jews or the two co-condemned. He freely submitted to Roman authority, endured a scourging and ultimately carried a cross to Calvary and died by crucifixion. Execution in his case was the vehicle by which he died for our sins to secure our redemption and salvation. Hope this helps.
I'm going to start an organization called Atheists for Pope Francis!
It's just weird that we have a Pope who is a humanist and a President who is a dictator. What a world.
22
Because the Sixth Commandment long ago ruled that we shalt not kill, those of us in Christian society somehow find it necessary to kill those who kill.
4
My question is whether anyone cares what this man thinks?
8
@John White The answer is many.
2
Why should the Pope's condemnation of the death penalty have any more impact on American politics than his condemnation of abortion? Somehow, lots of American politicians who are Catholic nevertheless manage to be pro-Choice.
2
@retired guy Abortion is an extremely personal and private issue and never done 'in the name of the people,' while capital punishment and the death penalty are public matters carried out exclusively 'in the name of the people' by a government of the people, for the people, by the people. Catholics can demand both for their representative government not to carry out the death penalty in their name, and simultaneously not demand that their own doctrine be forced upon the personal life, health and family decisions of people of other faiths.
6
A small step to declaring war to be immoral and unacceptable. Those who kill for a country are committing a sin. Jesus did not make exceptions for "just wars", whatever that might be.
2
The world's population bomb has been worsened because of his church's policies on birth control and abortion. This has caused deaths by famine, disease and territorial wars of many more people than have been killed by capital punishment. The pope should address the larger problem.
7
I believe that we as Americans, are easily led by our religious leaders. That's one reason I gave up religion but that is also beside the point.
Torture is wrong. Always wrong. Under any circumstance.
Killing is wrong. Always wrong. Under any circumstance.
Depriving a human from their human rights is wrong. Always wrong. Under any circumstance.
These are the 3 pillars that have impacted societies to make laws which guard against Torture, Killing, Deprivation. All laws which are valid and time honored hang from these 3 pillars.
Yes, I wanted to kill the man who brutally raped my younger sister, but I didn't. Why? I certainly could have. I knew where he lived. I know how to handle a gun. Because to value life is to protect it.
10
Now that Pope Francis has arrived at this righteous stance why doesn't he offer up some cash from the Church coffers to pay reparations to all those in history who have met their demise at the hands of the Church? Oh, let's take an exception for those. Big talker.
4
@The Closer At least they seem to be learning from past mistakes, which is preferable to the status quo.
5
To the PR Pope: Your opinions on anything won’t matter until the time when you show any interest in dealing with the rampant sex abuse that exists in the church, instead of returning excommunicated pedophile priests to new congregations and working to obstruct investigators looking at the extent of Vatican complicity.
12
@Melba Toast:
Apples and oranges. The rampant sexual abuse that has gone on for centuries needs to be addressed as a separate issue/problem in the Church. We must stop protecting, covering up, and denying the overwhelming amount of sexual abuse that has occurred for centuries in the Catholic Church. They should lose their membership as priests in the Church, and face criminal charges as any other citizen would. Along with this, the Roman Catholic Church must address the notion that priests cannot marry. Most of the apostles were married. The rule of celibacy has never been obeyed by all, and has helped the coffers of the church in money, land and other riches.
1
How far the Catholic Church has come.
5
We have a true leader of the "Free World" and he does not live in the White House
7
HE is too good for us. And I'm happily atheist. Seriously.
5
Death penalty has become all but impossible to administer.
After someone is sentenced to death, in the U.S., it takes years or decades to carry out the execution. By the time someone is finally executed, the retribution or deterrent aspect of that has all but been vanished. 'Justice delayed, justice denied'. Thus the logic of death penalty is invalid.
Then how the death penalty is arrived at. Far too many innocent people have been sentenced to death and too many innocents have been put death.
What makes someone commit a capital crime? Poor impulse control, owing to a variety of factors such as mental handicap from low intelligence, inscrutable mental illness, etc. We are just ignorant of factors that make people do things.
I don't mean to say criminals ought to be forgiven. They should be punished more as a deterrent to the punished and to the society and less as retribution. Lengthy prison sentences are not unjustifiable. For a capital offence life in prison without parole is sufficient, and that's all we can impose. We seek death penalty feeling that we can administer punishment/solution, which is "perfect." That mentality is not quite logical.
So get rid of death penalty. See those who remember BTK who did not receive death penalty. And there have been far too many who deserved death penalty but did not receive. If I could take a wild guess, out 100 who deserve death penalty, not even one receives it! Just accept the reality that we can't be perfect.
7
The death penalty is cruel to all involved, and seems to be issued in rarer and rarer circumstances - some might even call it unusual. Add a prohibition from the Pope and, by extension, a dilemma for all Catholics who work in the criminal justice system or who vote, and this might just be the overdue end of this practice in American civilian courts.
5
This guy is the best PR move the Vatican has ever made. He still looks the other way when priests murder and rape children. He has ZERO credibility as far as I am concerned. He's a good actor though! He's fooled a lot of people.
5
Those sentenced to death took no mind of the dignity of their victims. Where is the dignity of the murderer that we should spare him? And rehabilitate a person who will spend his life in prison will serve what purpose? Next on the agenda I suppose is elimination of life sentences.
We didn't have botched executions when the traditional methods were used. They were quick and effective.
2
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", let he who commits the crime, be punished as he committed the crime, so upon yourself you have decided your fate. The victim did not have a say in their fate, we the living should not have to judge, we the living should not have to take a side, we the living owe the committer of the crime, the rights the victim deserves, be it... " an eye for an eye ", or mercy, let the facts of the crime or the compassion of our hearts, be the determinant, that's our Law. Jesus did not come here to change anything his father had said, he came here to teach man how to live a "Righteous Life", his religious teachings were separate from earthly political activity, he did not get into the politics of man, he did no say, Caesar was below him, or teach against the Priests in the temple, or the Prophets before him. He taught us what "Thou shall not kill" means, not to not do it, but to be justified in doing it....(" Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone") . God the father had told Joshua and the Hebrews to kill all at the battle of Jericho, and he did not fault David for slaying Goliath, or condemn someone for defending their families or life, there are times, and reasons, when killing is justified, in the Law of Man, This reflects the traditional Christian thought that church and state have separate spheres of influence. The Pope should be as circumspect as Jesus, when making these overt public policy pronouncements.
1
'Thou Shall Not Kill'. You can't get it clearer than that.
As for the 'problems' of Catholic Republicans after this pronouncement of the Pope, the poor and downtrodden were Christ's chosen people, the rich man, camel and eye of the needle example more than clear about this. For millennia the Church has had to dance to an impossible tune by combining the defence of the interests of the Right with the pronouncements of Jesus. All the Republican Catholics you mention in powerful positions must have had to come to some hypocritical white-washing of their religious consciences while pursuing their political objectives. This will make no difference to their moral arrangements.
2
The Pope is starting to sound like an atheist with a moral compass. I suspect that deep down, he realizes you don't need religion to have morality.
3
The pope should stay out of politics and stick to religion. The death penalty has been with us from the beginning. Read the old testament. God wiped out Sodom and Gomorah for homosexual sodomy. Look it up Pope.
Perhaps the Pope and the Catholic Church would like to apologize to all those put to death by the church, its various organs and branches throughout the centuries. They might include torture also, not uncommon as a means of persuasion at times by the church and its minions.
2
I completely agree with Pope Francis. The death penalty should be outlawed, including the death penalty for unborn children.
4
Great that the Catholic Church now stands by the fifth commandment, Thou Shalt not Kill.
3
Our rapidly devolving world is badly in need of enlightened moral leadership....
This is a step in the right direction....
6
This 100% ruling out the death penalty also challenges war as a skillful means toward justice. It seldom works to achieve compassion.
Go on the internet to see a list of the countries which still practice capital punishment. Funny thing, we are on the list, in the company of what the POTUS recently referred to as S------e countries. I rest my case.
2
Too bad this Pope and previous Popes and the Catholic Church didn’t care enough about the thousands of children who were raped and abused by priests. I am Catholic, but because of this abuse I not only don’t care what the Church has to say, I oppose anything they have to say.
3
And I declare... that abuse of children and nuns by priests and higher clergy is unacceptable in all cases. First things first... that is the moral imperitive here!
3
Any influencal institution pleading against death penalty is welcomed for the very sake of this pleading. The rest is noise.
2
I wonder if those bishops who refused the Eucharist to pro-choice, Catholic politicians will now refuse the Eucharist to pro-death penalty, Catholic politicians.
My guess is they won't. And therein lies their hypocrisy.
2
As a nonpracticing Catholic, I am not affected by this ruling. Francis is clearly misusing his authority and if I were still practicing, I would disregard it. If the state is sinning by imposing a death penalty, then that rationale extends to war - no war is justified. We all have to sit back and let the murderers destroy us. If the state cannot allow the death penalty, why does the Pope, as head of the state of Vatican City, not disband his Swiss Guard who are there to kill those who try to harm the Pope? I think Francis has enough to deal with already - he needs to get his clerics straightened out about what a vow of celibacy means and that sexual misconduct by priests is a grave sin. Why isn't he defocking these priests who not only scandalize with their misbehavior, but cost the church 10s of millions of dollars? Why isn't he telling the bishops to report these priests to the law enforcement community and let them face the consequences for their adultery with men and women, or teenagers, or children? Keep your nose out of the business of nations and clean up your own house, Francis.
2
I'm glued in front of my TV waiting to watch American Catholic bishops support & defend American Catholic judges who refuse to pronounce the death penalty - just as the bishops have supported those who refuse to comply with laws permitting abortion. The pope's next target? Warfare. Thou Shalt Not Kill, right?
2
Happy and willing to listen to our religious leaders, once they begin protecting our children.
4
"Thou shalt not kill" means - you got it, - thou shalt not kill! Surprised? Most Christians are, and probably disagree. No wonder George Bernard Shaw said "The problem with Christianity is, it's never been tried." Catholics, including priests and bishops, are now going to have to face up to what our Church should have been teaching for the past 2,000 years. In the early Church, Christians were forbidden to wage warfare. That was before Christianity became a State religion with emperors rather than popes calling the tune. Radical Christianity, à la The Catholic Worker in the U.S., founded by Dorothy Day, has been preaching this all along.
1
I suppose eliminating the death penalty. But. The Pope is trying to change the subject. The real abomination is clergy sexually abusing children. He is trying to change the conversation. The pope should focus on addressing the clergy child abuse first before going after things such as death penalty.
4
Thank you Pope Francis. You are a bright light in what is these days a very dark world. Now can you start work on the Church also being anti-war, as Jesus Christ was? I know the Church is slow to change, but war is the ultimate destroyer of life.
3
Nice to see, but once again, the Catholic Church comes centuries late to the moral position. So much for moral leadership and divine inspiration. Is there any doubt who are the shepherds, and who the sheep?
The Catholic church, throughout the centuries, regularly tortured & killed people for all kinds of infractions against its supremacy. How does it now ignore that reality & believe that a current change in official policy can undo its essential crimes against mankind??
Finally, the Catholic Church of all institutions has disavowed the death penalty. Maybe this will compel other powerful institutions to also disavow the shameful practice of death by the State. How many innocent people have been put to death by the States or wrongly called convicted? It’s about time someone with his holiness’s stature has come forward to say we need to end this needless retribution and revenge. I applaud the Pope! His pragmatism is once again evident.
1
This article interested me the most because I think that this topic has been talked amongst the American people. Is taking lives acceptable whether it's through abortion or the death penalty? Is the death penalty right? Pope Francis has declared that the death penalty is unacceptable and inhumane. This is hard for many Catholics because many people in politics, some in President Trumps cabinet, are followers of the Catholic Church and sometimes their religious beliefs contradict with their political views. Other political leaders such as Justice Antonin Scalia finds the death penalty "immoral." The Pope wants to teach the young generation at a young age that the death penalty is unacceptable and wants to spare lives. This article was useful to have my own opinion on the death penalty and whether we should have it. But i think the con side is that these prisoners are there for a reason whether that is murder or rape or sexual abuse towards innocent men, women and children. They have done nothing beneficial in our society but commit crimes. The other side too can be for pro life is that what if these people are innocent and you have taken their lives, there is no way to bring that back. What makes you the better person to kill someone for doing the same thing?
1
Church used to call burning people alive an act of faith, Auto da Fe. How times and morals change for this "eternal" and "infallible" institution.
1
Pope Francis' announcement is not ex cathedra. It is his opinion. I am Catholic and wish we did not have a death penalty, but this opinion expressed by the pope will really not change anything
1
After reading up on death penalty cases in the U.S. I have grave concerns about the sometimes arbitrary way these cases are decided. This definitely gives me pause and suggests that it should be given out much more rarely.
Andrea Yates murders her 5 children one by one via drowning, decades in prison (eventually changed to insanity plea) she remains in a low security mental hospital in Texas to this day, yet there are scores of other cases of, a convenience store robbery gone wrong, a person dies, death penalty, a drunk gets into a scuffle with a police officer and kills him in a panic, death penalty, and so on. There seems a troubling lack of consistency it what merits execution and what doesn't. All those cases are tragic, but Yates was deliberate,cold blooded murder of children, many others were bad decisions made against strangers in moments of desperation.
However, there are cases where we know the person did it, they are proud they did it, and what they did was nightmarish.
Anders Breivik, James Holmes, Dylan Roof, all unrepentant, all murdered dozens, and in their cases...all people I am happy to see removed from this earth.
But again, those cases are exceedingly rare, and, in those cases, all mass shootings, its extraordinarily rare for them even to go to trial, as they often end in suicide, or death at the hands of responding law enforcement. The US executes around 30-40 people per year, that number shouldn't be zero, but it should be close, maybe 2-3.
3
We were told in the Commandments from God:
"Thou shall not kill". It is not a choice for our own beliefs or political issues: It is "God's Commandment". Very clear, despite our desires or political "advantages". For political and other reasons, we decide to defy this and create our own commandments. That does not make it right, nor ethical. But, then again, it seems many politicians see themselves as gods these days.
1
I believe that the Catholic Church also holds that elective abortion is unacceptable in all cases. Looking forward to State legislatures changing their laws to reflect this crystal-clear teaching.
4
@Thomas They can't. It's unconstitutional and the exercise would be pointless and divisive. Give it enough time however and the Death Penalty may also by ruled unconstitutional and the legislatures can safely just ignore the issue. Or amend the Constitution (good luck with that).
1
The Pope made an exception a few years ago for women carrying Zika infected fetuses.
1
So easy for some to condemn his statement, but think about this: The U.S. has executed innocent people. Also take a look at people who have been released from death row and prison after science and DNA testing proved them innocent.
1
It took me some time to realize that if I was truly "Pro-Life", I also must be against the death penalty as well, however, horrendous the crime.
2
Once we can assure that we aren't imprisoning 10k innocent people yearly, then we can discuss the death penalty. Until we fix our broken judicial system and free all of the wrongfully convicted this idea should be off the table completely.
13
The Roman Catholic church’s support of the death penalty was derived from a desire on its part to stay aligned with the governments of the countries in which it has existed for centuries. The endorsement of the death penalty and other questionable ethical stances such as the Just War theory gave governments and individuals a Get Out of Jail card for free.
I've never understood how individuals can oppose abortion because of the "sanctity of life" and yet support the death penalty. We can debate endlessly when life "begins" but there is no debating the fact that the death penalty is imposed on live human beings. Pope Francis has taken an important step toward reconciling these views. Good for him, and for all humanity.
5
"The change in church teaching from Pope Francis is likely to challenge Roman Catholic politicians, judges and officials who have argued that their church was not entirely opposed to capital punishment."
Please, just tell me what actually did happen. I have enough trouble keeping track of that. I don't need to ingest claims about what the future may hold, claims which frequently turn out to be wrong — else are so obvious so as to be free of information. Just the facts, please.
I am a fallen-away Catholic for many, many reasons. However, this is the first time in many years I applaud a stand that the Church has taken. Well done!!!
15
The former Catholic stance on the death penalty would not have justified the imposition of the death penalty for any person ever sentenced to death in the US. Under the now former Catholic stance on use of the death penalty justification for a death sentence was exceedingly rare, almost theoretical. The lack of understanding by most Catholics and non-Catholics alike of just how few circumstances could justify a death sentence lead to the misconception that the Catholic church did not oppose the death penalty. Justice Scalia, a supposed devout Catholic, used disingenuous mental gymnastics to continually uphold the death penalty in the United States, despite the fact that the then Catholic position on the death penalty would not have justified any of the death sentences upheld by Scalia during his tenure as a Supreme Court Justice. Thank God for Pope Francis for simplifying everything! The death penalty is NEVER justified.
18
"The majority of the world’s executions take place in five countries: China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan. The United States was No. 8 on the list in 2017, according to Amnesty International....In the Philippines, a primarily Catholic country...President Rodrigo Duterte has been pushing to reimpose [capital punishment]."
'[pope john paul II argued that] the death penalty was allowed if it was “the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.”'
'[pope francis argued that] that capital punishment “does not render justice to the victims, but rather fosters vengeance.”'
while there might be some debate about capital punishment for first-degree murder with a due process trial with a judge and a jury, we should beyond debate about capital punishment for second-degree murder (manslaughter), rape, drug selling (see the philippines), drug using (see the philippines), blasphemy, counterfeiting, pornography, adultery, and even treason. in these latter cases, life imprisonment or lesser imprisonment would be effective and sufficient as punishment for the horrible crimes that are committed, and in some cases. less than horrible crimes.
in other words, to make their religious arguments more convincing, it would behoove the church (and mosque and synagogue) authorities to use legal arguments and arguments about the legal process for when and why capital punishment should not be used, even if not arguing for a total ban.
3
According to the Death Penalty Information Center, there have been 1479 executions in the U.S. since 1976. By my math that's an average of about 1 execution every 10 days.
According to the Guttmacher Institute, in 2014, when the U.S abortion rate reached a historic low, there were 926,200 abortions performed, for an average of 2,537.53 abortions per day.
So, within ten days in this country there will be 1 execution and 25,370 abortions.
Thanks, Pope Francis!
1
I am proud of the fact that Canada eliminated the death penalty many years ago.
My argument against capital punishment is this: it requires our government to hire people to kill people.
How can we justify this?
12
@Louise Cooper
Your argument is incomplete. If it was then you could answer your own question.
I hate to sound rude, but given the Catholic Church's decades-long intransigence about priests molesting children and the many, many stories of its leaders shuffling priests around, denials, lawsuits, scandals, etc., etc., it's difficult for me to ascribe much moral authority to its teachings.
Plus, I'm a firm believer in birth control. Firm. Believer.
7
Despite all that (and I’m not saying you’re wrong), this new teaching is a very good thing.
2
The Pope is right that the preconditions for the legitimate exercise of capital punichment, as laid out by the Tradition, are longer met, and that the Church should therefore work for its indefinite suspension around the world. However, the wording of this revision to the Catechism is confused, incoherent, and self-defeating--in dire need of an edit! Hopefully the CDF will clean up this messy draft before it makes it to print.
In the old days the Death Penalty was accepted by the Catholic Church. It is in no way connected to the pro-life movement.
2
I am not Catholic and I disagree with parts of Catholic theology.
That there have been priests who have molested and that the Church in prior times has done despicable things is not relevant.
I applaud the Pope for speaking out against the death penalty even though he may be correct for the wrong reasons.
The only way not to execute an innocent person is to execute no one.
Lab tests have false positives ; witnesses can be mistaken; confessions may be coerced.
Recall the Central Park 5 in NYC.
Every one knew they were guilty.
They confessed.
If the jogger had died and NYS had a death penalty 5 INNOCENT youths would have been fried.
Supporters of the death penalty know there is the possibility of error.
They are willing to accept the possibility of executing an innocent person in order to be able to execute vicious murderers.
I disagree with that trade off and oppose the death penalty in all cases.
7
@david -"That there have been priests who have molested and that the Church in prior times has done despicable things is not relevant."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prior times?
It continues today. It is endemic throughout the church.
Oh, and try saying that to ones who have been abused that their abuse is not relevant.
Your attitude is what keep it going - a willingness to say it's in the past and not doing anything about whats going on in front of you.
1
He worried they are going to start executing priest for all the stuff they have been covering up for decades (centuries?).
2
This should put Mike Pence and his ilk into a fine state of apoplexy. Should be fun to watch.
11
What about those whom the Church tortured to death in the Spanish Inquisition? Oops!
1
I grew up in a working class catholic neighborhood. I can assure you the white ethnic men there will not be happy with this idea. The same men who betrayed their family's economic interests and union goals by turning to Reagan and the Republicans very much like the idea of killing some people. What a person's real religion is is usually little more than ego inflation, but I admire the Pope for at least attempting a reform.
6
OK Francis. Now get to work on contraception and population control.
11
He does’t need to. He’s already against these things.
1
"Pope Francis Declares Death Penalty Unacceptable in All Cases"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Alrighty then.
Now, how about priests, bishops, cardinals and other high end muckety mucks who sexually abuse children and nuns?
Clean up your own house before condeming others.
4
But you live in a society that rapes, murders, lies, cheats, steals. Under your concept of things, you don’t get a say.
3
The Pope is right. Killing humans, for any reason, is wrong. Some demand killing those who commit heinous crimes and believe it’s justice. It’s not, because it can’t compensate for the criminals’ deeds of the past. It’s retribution or revenge, but it’s still wrong. Clearly, His Holiness the Pope knows wrong from right, and so do most second graders because we teach our kids the difference at an early age. Wouldn’t it be great if the adults of the world practiced what they preach? All this killing all over the world will only stop when people start to realize they’re hurting themselves when they kill others. We adults should teach ethics and civility in school, whether public or private. Let’s put less emphasis on making money and more emphasis on just being a decent person that respects the lives of others. At the end of the day, we are all one big family. Let’s act like it.
10
I am Catholic, but anything a Pope says about secular matters is unimportant.
6
As Jesus once said, give unto God what is God's and unto Ceasar's what is Ceasar's
5
Pope Francis is woke.
15
So, let's say, the Las Vegas shooter, who killed 50 and injured 500 would have deserved our mercy, if he hadn't been a coward and done away with himself?
Sorry. I still believe in the death penalty, depending on the case.
11
The Pope is wrong. Full stop. If he ever had a child who was raped, murdered and dismembered he would feel different.
10
As a priest in Buenos Aires, he literally knew thousands of people that happened to.
14
@Steve - I really don't want a justice system that's based on anger or rage, however justifiable those feelings are in those who have lost a loved one to violent crime. A desire for vengeance cannot be a basis for laws.
15
No he wouldn’t. That’s why he is God’s voice on Earth.
2
Yes, a consequence of previous Catholic teaching, but seriously NYT. How about hiring a good editor? This was incoherent, frequently misrepresenting both the Pope's position and previous Catholic teaching on this issue. And - worse - speculating about possible reactions. A mish-mash of bits of reporting from obviously semi-informed reporters is not coherent - ["Elisabetta Povoledo reported from Rome, and Laurie Goodstein from New York. Adam Liptak contributed reporting from Washington, and Sewell Chan from New York."] - maybe each of them gave their views but this did not make a coherent report.
9
Thirteen years of fundamentalist evangelical Baptist school and the deep dive into philosophy, history, world religions, and psychology that followed made me an atheist.
However, I am willing to allow that there are some people and groups within religion that may have helped to better humanity. I've long admired the Catholic orders, especially in Latin America, that truly walk their Jesus talk in embracing poverty for themselves while caring for the poor and fighting for the social justice of the politically weak.
The conservative backlash the Church and the world experienced in the 70s pushed the liberal orders to the margins where they labored in political obscurity for decades. So it was stunning that a Jesuit was elevated to Pope but it signaled that conservative hegemony was threatening the future of the church and radical change was needed.
Pope Francis is that change and comes from an order that not only values the rights of the least among us but also the education of all. Despite Catholic history, mythological trappings, and moral failings, Jesuits seem to at least try to embrace science and reality, far more so than American evangelicals. And true to his vows, Francis has refused the trappings of wealth his position offers while he boldly leads the church into the future.
If I were ever to consider returning to Christianity, it would be to the Catholic Church of Pope Francis.
11
Left coast finch: I went to a Jesuit school in the late 70s early 80s during the military dictatorship in Brazil. My school hired teachers who had been arrested, tortured and who had lost their political and civil rights. The best history teacher I’ve ever had was one of them. Yes, some Catholic orders walk their Jesus talk!
6
Pope Francis's slugging percentage continues to go up.
I love you, Pope Francis.
I feel strongly that Pope Francis would like to see the celibacy requirement dropped, see women ordained as priests and see the ban on contraception lifted. Doesn't sound very realistic, though one can always dream.
The celibacy requirement would probably be the least difficult, though.Married Protestant clergy who convert are allowed to become priests, for example. And there's the example of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic churches.
Keep up those extra-base hits and home runs, Pope Francis. The world turns its lonely eyes to you.
16
Pope Frances, thank you for your compassion and your leadership in making our world a little less violent.
9
My question is will Jeff Sessions and the conservative right support all Catholic prison officials who refuse to carry out this job duty due to their sincerely held religious belief that such an action is a sin.
10
Pope Francis is progressive in many regards but remains at his core, of the old world where women aren't equal and the church had all power. This latest decree adds more meaningless onto all decrees coming from an institution so out of touch with the present. The majority of people supports the death penalty as they do abortion. The argument for legal abortion remains pretty conclusive, and while there are good arguments both pro and con for the death penalty, we cannot just dismiss the pro because the church tells us to. These things are really beyond church edict. Ask a woman or doctor about abortion, and a cop, prosecuter and victim's family about the death penalty, not the pope.
2
Today's teaching on the death penalty finally brings some claritiy to the issue of sanctity of life. How is it possible to bring moral authority to this issue while still endorsing the murder of individuals by the state?
This is a teaching of the Church, it's not Doctrine, and as such, ambiguity can be clarified.
4
The death penalty is always wrong and completely contrary to Jesus' message. So, I agree with the pope.
5
I was raised catholic, but dropped catholic school as soon as I had a choice. My three kids raised ‘Christian’.
In my humble nondenominational opinion, priests or anyone in similar role of authority, who abuses children should be given death penalty. Terminated within 3yr of verdict, appeals done or not.
4
I read Norman Mailer's The Executioners Song over 30 years ago. The book elucidates the torment everyone associated with the execution of a Gary Gilmore (who wanted to be put to death) went through: the families of the victims, the attorney's and their families, their staff and families, the guards....No one should be forced to be involved in the death of another. I think that quite often when the person on death row is sober, guards and others see them as a human being. Then 10 years later their job involves killing that person. Even if a person deserves to die for what they did, no American citizen should have the job of putting that person to death.
6
You can't take back an execution.
The way to curtail, and possibly end the death penalty in the courts is to statutorily notify every jury that the evidence and testimony presented may be incomplete and biased which can lead you to a wrong conclusion that may end the life of an innocent defendant as it has in past cases and that reasonable doubt is any doubt for which you have a reason behind it.
To curtail the death penalty in the states; aggressively prosecute DA teams who are later found to have tried an innocent who was put to death. Statutorily dismiss the trial attorneys and each of their supervisors up to and including the state AG, no matter where they may be in their careers.
The faithful's hypocrisy speaks for itself.
1
The fact that the Catholic church is only now disavowing capital punishment is a testament to its immorality.
1
@Casey So centuries of changes for the better are immoral? Talk about cursing the darkness...
3
@Casey Maybe, but compared to whom? Muslims? Communists? Evangelicals? The US government?
3
I support what the Pope says the death penalty is unacceptable in all cases. However the GOP , Catholics and evangelicals have been voting for GOP leaders who are for the death penalty and easily can pull the lever and campaign on it. By allowing this to keep happening voting for the GOP you will reap what you sow now and in the next life.
3
Observe how Francis's logic extends even to terrorists or enemy combatants and criminals (like Luis Bracamontes) who have actually admitted to killing people and have expressed no remorse for their acts. This isn't about standing up for human life, but Francis erring on the side of moral neutrality.
Our state governor is a conservative Catholic and has been working hard to get the death penalty back. The first execution is scheduled for two weeks form now. I wonder what his stance will be now. And (perhaps someone will clarify this for me), does this not effectively elevate Catholic opposition to the death penalty to the same level as Catholic opposition to abortion?
4
What I have never understood are staunch conservatives who claim to be pro-life when it comes to a woman's right to make her own decisions are the ones that most stridently call for executing criminals.
3
There is a distinct odor of whataboutism in the many comments asserting that the Pope has no right to assert a position against the death penalty while there has been sexual abuse by members of the clergy. Either you think Pope Francis is on firm religious and moral grounds or you don't.
4
This is fantastic news. Pope Francis has shown that he is more interested in following Christ´s teachings than doing what is pragmatic in a political world. Yes, now politicians, leaders, and judges who proclaim their Catholic faith, need to reconcile with this Pope´s declaration against the death penalty in all cases. What a much needed beam of light Francis gave the world today.
5
Wow, so many anti-Catholic comments on this article. Which is disappointed, given the good news. To debunk a few ideas floating around here:
- American Catholics are not 'the Church'. In fact we are mostly irrelevant within it because the Church is demographically dominated by Africa, Latin America, and south/east Asia. So any qualms you have with American Catholics should stay here: please don't blame folks halfway around the world for our mistakes.
- At 2000+ years, the Church is older than almost any other institution in the world. It doesn't reform quickly, but it generally does move in the right direction. The Pope can't just wave his hand and change centuries-old laws (on birth control, on homosexuality, on married priests, etc). But he and many others are working to make progress.
- American Catholics are not particularly conservative, and we're certainly not the Trump base. Clinton won the Catholic vote in 2016.
- Pedophile priests...yeah, we know. We hate them, and the vast majority of us are working tirelessly to root them out. You don't have to flog a dead horse.
8
@Jack
on your last point: why are we still, 20 years on from news of the scandal, finding major cases of priest abuse? either there are so many that it takes decades to root them all out, or many within catholicism don't want them rooted out (probably both true).
bottom line: given all the horrible things catholics have done over the past 100 or so years (the abuse including magdalene laundries etc etc), why do they have ANY say in social policy??
1
I am neither Catholic (atheist) nor a pro-life/anti-abortion activist, but from a purely strategic point of view, I think the religious right are making a mistake in their increasing resistance to Pope Francis on certain issues.
Christians/Catholics (not always interchangeable, but that's another topic) have little to gain and much to lose by choosing to make any kind of stand on the death penalty. Jesus never actually commanded, required or suggested that anyone be put to death for any crime. In fact, he personally interfered in a perfectly legal (under the laws of the time) execution of a woman himself. So there's no crisis of faith in abandoning the death penalty.
Similarly, Catholics/Christians have no religious basis (that I can find in the bible) for resisting the Pope's general position on refugees, asylum-seekers, welfare, etc. If anything, they should be championing such programs. In any case, they gain nothing in the fight against it.
But they do LOSE something. If I were pro-life and an annoying liberal (like myself) confronted me with the hypocrisy of a "pro-life" message that doesn't seem concerned with the life and well-being of anyone outside the womb, I'd gladly cede ground on the death penalty, immigration, refugees, welfare, etc. I'd still have to overcome the considerable privacy rights arguments on abortion, but at least I could argue from a position of good faith instead of fighting a vertical uphill battle from a position of hypocrisy.
1
America has one of the highest percentage of prison populations in the World; followed only by Russia. Question; are Americans so much worse than other people around the World/ No; our laws are too strict; our punishments too intense. Trump/GOP is "pro life" but also pro law enforcement.Nothing will change in America while Trump/GOP is in power. Vote out GOP for jobs; health care and living wage. Ray Sipe
5
I think the Pope needs to hear long and hard about the heinous crimes committed by some people before he pontificates on whether the death penalty should be applied under no circumstances. The problem I have always had with religion and particularly the Catholic Church is their simplistic view of morality. All life is sacred, doesn't that make it easy. I have heard of crimes that were so horrific that I would volunteer to needle the creep myself with no compunction what so ever.
2
@CBH Jesus said killing was wrong. Jesus said the eye-for-an-eye mentality was wrong. You can't fault the Pope for reminding his congregation of that.
4
Since he just caught up with me, I'm ok with it. It serves no purpose. Criminals aren't deterred by death penalties or long sentences; they usually either believe they won't get caught or they do something in the heat of the moment without regard to consequence. The state killing people to show us that killing people is wrong just doesn't make sense.
6
At least now they will become a little more consistent. For all of this time, the Church has turned a blind eye to war and the death penalty while steadily attacking contraception and abortion.
3
This is long due. If we believe life is a seamless garment, then capital punishment has no place in our society.
Viva Pope Francis!
8
This is one position that the pope has taken with which I fully agree. The death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment.
That said, I do not believe that this extends to protection of the life of an unborn fetus.
Nobody likes to see abortion. However, abortion is often the lesser of evils.
This is particularly the case on a finite planet with limited resources.
The US and all civilized countries should have policies which limit births to one or two per woman.
That's necessary to curb continued population growth which destabilizes poor countries in the third world. In extreme cases, high population growth leads to outright starvation or civil war or genocide.
In the past, birth control was unavailable or unreliable. War was deemed necessary to eliminate the excess men.
This is very much like what happens among animals in nature. Elk grow horns so that they can do battle with each other to eliminate excess elk.
People can and should do better than that. If we achieved zero population growth, there is no reason why living standards could not gradually improve for all humans.
The pope's teachings that birth control is sinful and abortion is murder contributes to the suffering of hundreds of millions in the third world. For example, in Guatemala.
These countries then send refugees to the US to escape the violence that has erupted in Guatemala itself because of excess births.
The solution is simple. We need one-child policies and a stop to illegal immigration.
1
Looking at the title I was a little shocked. This because of the bold statement by a pope. Reading further I then understood Pope Francis' declaration. Francis I has showed Catholics and the world he isn't afraid of controversy, as earlier this year in May, reportedly told a gay man "God made you that way". Many may see the Pope as radical, However, The fifth commandment states "Thou Shalt not kill" and Mark 12:31 ''Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Is the Pope radical or is he just following the religions words? Either way I think it's great to see such an accepting religious figure at such a high level.
5
Pope Francis is a liberal Marxist leaning globalist politician who holds his finger to the political winds and utters statements which will endear him to those of his same political stripe. Let him begin to truly address those who are dying the slow death of spiritual separation from a church which they trusted and in which they believed. There has been a deadly silence from him since the news of Cardinal Mc Carrick, the revelations from the Pennsylvania diocese, the Chilean bishop's scandals, the resignation of the bishop in Australia. He is ensuring that the hierarchical culture which enabled the clerical abuse scandal to occur in the first place is carried on.
Capital punishment involves more than actual physical death. What about the death to the human spirit of those who have been so wounded by the hypocrisy and scandals in the church. I say this as one who is still trying to be a practicing Catholic in a church which is failing many of us.
4
Self induced abortion by desperate and poor women world wide is often a death penalty. Can the Catholic Church ever realize it’s own blatant hypocrisy?
7
Please, for the love of God...”Pope Francis For President.” This coming from a proud atheist. Big Love For Pope Francis.
18
If this is retroactive, the Church will have a doozy of a time explaining the Crusades and the Inquisition.
2
Bravo to Pope Francis!
12
The Catholic Church is no stranger to murder and torture as can be seen by the Inquisition.
What took them so long to find humility ?
2
@G i It didn't take this long. The Church atoned for the atrocities of the Inquisition long ago.
2
The Catholic Church has evolved by going from killing people by burning them alive at the stake, to now saying the death penalty is unacceptable. It took them over 1,000 years, but it is better than nothing.
14
Pontifical Pronouncements are easy.
That said, its refreshing to see the church issuing doctrinal edicts that conform with notions of human decency.
If it would only deal with the sex abusers in its midst.
1
Bravo to Pope Francis!
5
Unfortunately for this pope and all of his faithful, the CC is increasingly irrelevant, especially with regard to moral issues. Until it truly atones for the sins it has committed in the name of God practically its inception, it is not qualified to judge the laws and beliefs of modern western societies. Death penalty, birth control, LGBT rights...all of it.
4
Perhaps if all nations sent individuals convicted of crimes meriting the death penalty, to live the rest of their respective lives in the Vatican,
the College of Cardinals might whistle a different tune.
2
the Pope is infallible but that does not mean he is always right
Father can we here in the U.S. have one exemption for this latest edict?
2
I am against the death penalty. I became outspoken about it in 2015 when Indonesia executed 2 members of the Bali Nine; Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran. I came to the realization then that you either believe governments have a right to kill or they don’t. Because if you believe that governments can kill, then they can come up with any reason to kill that they see fit. If America can execute a serial killer, then Indonesia can execute a drug smuggler. I don’t think Indonesia had a right to kill those people. And that’s when I realized that America should abolish the death penalty.
16
If only we could bring back to life the thousands upon thousands who were burned on stake and tortured by Inquisition in the name of the Holy Roman Catholic church.
I suggest as a Roman catholic the church now needs to declare everyone of them a saint.
7
I am a whole-life progressive. I am not Catholic, but I see the current Pope as a rare moral hero and leader in today’s world. I applause this 110%.
Explanation: As a ‘whole-lifer’, I do not aim to have abortion prohibited, but I personally would never encourage an abortion and would strive to help provide alternatives, though I would also strive to be ultimately non-judgmental of what choice is made. I guess you could say I am both pro-choice but also consistently pro-life. On policy, I support efforts to reduce unwanted pregnancies and provide increased social assistance to mothers/potential mothers, as well as reasonable restrictions on abortions (such as no third trimester abortions). I support Medicare for All like any real whole-lifer. As a progressive, I support contraception and same sex marriage unlike the current Catholic Church. But the Pope’s moral leadership on the environment, poverty and now death penalty abolitionism, among other issues, is inspiring to me. Bravo!
6
Today Liberals love the Pope.
Tomorrow if he against abortion..they will hate him, again.
6
Forget liberals: do conservatives still love the Pope, I wonder? He’s already spoken out in support of the poor and immigrants, admonished us not to judge gay people, and now lends his voice to the anti-death penalty stance. I’ve met plenty of conservatives in my time who are staunchly against abortion, as well as immigrants and programs that benefit the poor, and who rail against gay rights while fully supporting the death penalty. How does this latest announcement from the pontiff square with their opinions, I wonder?
For the record, the Pope never stopped being anti-abortion. He’s always been pro-life and has embraced everything that means, including supporting the indigent, the elderly, the sick, the hungry, the forgotten, and men, women, and children of all classes and creeds. It’s a tough road to walk, and I don’t think most conservatives have the shoes for it.
13
@Joe Paper
Joe, what's wrong with agreeing with some things a person says or does, but disagreeing with others? Does it have to be all or nothing?
6
@Rob Try telling that to the NYTimes editorial board.
Regardless of what one thinks of the politics or practicality of the Pope's declaration, one thing is certain; Opposition to capital punishment is 100% consistent with the teachings of Jesus as presented in the New Testament. There should be nothing controversial about the Pope's statement for people who proclaim to be Christians.
14
I wish the Pro-lifers hear this.
1
Capital punishment is a fundamental feature of civilization, meaning that any society that doesn't practice it is uncivilized. It's the only way a society can collectively express its value for innocent life and that the ultimate transgressions against society will be dealt with in the ultimate way.
4
All I can say is: "Finally" a Pope who is willing to wade in on such issues. If you agree, then I believe you must also begin to think through the persistent belief that abortion is fine. Likewise, those who believe that abortion is wrong, must consider whether the death penalty is also wrong. This Pope is a breath of fresh air.
7
Too bad about types like Ted Bundy. Active in the Seattle area in the early 1970's, his criminal bent (he was driven to achieve sexual release in the context of homicidal frenzy) lent a tinge of grimness to everyday life in those days. Particularly, since I and many of my friends matched his victim profile: young, Caucasian, long hair. Mr. Bundy, after killing many, escaped jail in Utah, and proceeded to rape and kill more young women in Florida. However, his type is rare. Capital punishment can never be pure of racism and humankind's primal thirst for bloody vengeance. I oppose the death penalty, even if young U.S. women were a tiny bit safer in the 1980's, after Bundy's execution. We naturally recoil from horrible lethal crimes. But statistically insignificant safety enhancements can't justify the death penalty, given what we know of its flaws and evils today.
4
It would have been nice if this happened before countless scientists, thinkers, artists and everyday citizens had been burned alive by the RCC over the centuries. Who knows how many things we now lack in our world because of that?
2
Let me preface by saying I am not a Catholic.
I am so tired of the shrillness of some NY readers who think that if someone doesn't perfectly align with their views, any positive ( in the reader views) action should be shot down.
How do you ever expect progress if you don 't encourage each step?
Yes, we all condemn sex scandals. Yes, the Catholic bureaucracy hasn't been a model in how they have dealt with each scandal. This Pope is taking some corrective steps. Let's hope that continues.
But why condemn him on this matter regarding execution rates in prisons because of another matter?
Isn't the key to good marriages, good relationships in general to stay on topics-- not throw the kitchen sink at someone with scorn when they actually DO something you approve of?
Isn't it classic dysfunctional behavior to try to undercut what is positive by loading up comments of past less desirable behavior? Doesn't 't such dysfunctional communication actually try to sabotage desirable outcomes?
16
I would love the NYT to do a series on nations that did away with death penalty. How do their incarceration patterns compare with ours? Detailed analysis of why and how long they incarcerate, what they spend on rehab, and info on recidivism.
3
This is one more reason why I love this man. An eye for an eye was as old as there having been no jails or prisons. There hasn't been justification for murdering a murderer for a long time. Sanitizing murder by death-penalty laws in any state is still murder - but it's justified murder from righteous indignation: the extremity of aren't-we-lucky- we're-not-like-them, so, it's okay. NOT!
8
Anyone who owns a handgun or assault rifle is accepting that he or she may take human life. There is no purpose to them except to kill people.
If you believe human life is sacred, then you can not be pro-gun. Period. Has the Pope spoken to that? Do any of the "Christian" right speak to that?
6
“Francis said executions were unacceptable in all cases because they are “an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person,” the Vatican announced on Thursday”.
O Jesus! I wish the church had said it before it executed Jordano Bruno simply because he happened to believe (or rather REASON) that the space may be infinite:
“On 20 January 1600, Pope Clement VIII declared Bruno a heretic and the Inquisition issued a sentence of death.”
“On Ash Wednesday, 17 February 1600, in the Campo de' Fiori (a central Roman market square), with his "tongue imprisoned because of his wicked words". He was hung upside down naked before he was finally burned at the stake.”
Or perhaps the Pope should have reflected a little bit before Vatican offered countless blessings to the Nazis just 80 years ago, and conspired with them to find Jews and anti-Nazis?
The reason Copernicus’ “inviolability and dignity of the person” was not “attacked” (read: tortured and burned alive) was that Copernicus, in anticipation of the punishment, published his scientific discovery only while at his death bed. The church almost burned Galileo, & it took it till 1994 to acknowledge that its post-mortem death sentence to Copernicus was not all right, after all.
I don’t think the Pope occupies high moral ground to credibly claim an opposition to executions. The Pope’s claim today is only a derivative of what we have achieved in sciences and humanities and against the church’s attempts to destroy it all along.
5
@Grain of Sand
For the sake of completeness, the quotes in my comment above are from Wikipedia.
The article makes this new development seem much more drastic than it really is. The Catholic Church has always affirmed the evil of the death penalty and has only wanted it to be used in the rarest of cases and in most cases sees that it should almost never be used. This new letter and change to the Catechism is simply setting that viewpoint in stone.
Also, many people in the comments seem to think this spells the beginning of a liberal wave in the Church, and before the end we'll see gay marriage and female priests. However, this will never be the case, the Pope cannot change doctrine. The Church cannot change doctrine. What is set in stone is just that, set in stone. Marriage will always be between a man and a woman, without divorce. Men will always be priests and women will always be nuns, it's just how the roles work. Priests will always be celibate, at least in the Roman Catholic Church. Contraceptives will always be evil, Humanae Vitae will always be followed. Pope Francis will not overturn his predecessor, Pope Paul VI's encyclical, he is even in the process of canonizing him.
Remember that the world will always hate the Church and its faithful. "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you." John 15:18
Remember that the Church will never fall to the world or sin. "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18
6
Any teaching of the Church can be changed that is not inviolate and infallible(Ex. Immaculate Conception). The Church, through the Pope and its Bishops, ie., Second Vatican Council, provide teaching authority, however, anything that does not invalidate Sacred Scripture can be changed.
The church pronouncement on the sanctity of life including the death penalty is not Doctrine. It is a teaching of the Church based on moral authority.
Celibate priests, forms of Liturgy, role of women in the Church are historically based but certainly open for change based on the guidance of the Spirit.
6
"Inadmissable" seems somewhat stronger than "almost never."
1
@Samuel Hertzer _ you state: "Men will always be priests and women will always be nuns, it's just how the roles work. Priests will always be celibate, at least in the Roman Catholic Church. Contraceptives will always be evil, Humanae Vitae will always be followed."
It's not so simple.
Catholic theologians disagree over whether church teaching can change on the issues of contraception and women's ordination. Many argue that the bans on contraception and on women's ordination don't meet the papal infallibility standards.
And though the Roman Catholic church cites biblical support for celibacy in the examples of Jesus and the Apostle Paul, it is considered a rule, NOT a doctrine.
(Also, married Protestant clergy who convert to Catholicism have been accepted into the priesthood for more than 30 years.)
6
Wait for the pushback from both Fox news and all the faux Christians. When are we going to stop referring to them as such? How unlike Jesus can these twisted souls act [Pro -War, pro-judgment, anti-poor even when they themselves are poor, anti-education] before we start calling them Pro chaos-Satan Worshippers? Nothing remotely Christian about Right Wing Politics.
5
Re: "Father McCloskey argued that for any human being, 'it is a great grace to know the time of one’s death, as it gives us the opportunity to get right with the Lord who will judge us at our death. Perhaps many people have been saved in this way by the death penalty.' ”
That is utterly despicable. How dare this man call himself a Christian!
5
Curious. I'm a recovered Catholic who always assumed the RCC had an official position against the death penalty all along. Every time there's a high profile case of an upcoming state killing of a felon a pope usually speaks out against it.
1
You mean burning at the stake is no longer acceptable?
7
As the head of the longest running and largest criminal organization in world history the Pope is probably smart to attempt to nullify this potential penalty.
7
I love that he did it. But isn't this the religion that ran the Spanish Inquisition, ran the Crusades, and emptied Rome's Jewish Ghetto for the Nazis? Seems late in the game, too little too late.
3
In this article Pete Ricketts of Nebraska was mentioned as presiding over executions. That won't be accurate until August 14. What Ricketts has done was to overturn a legislative bill that became law by using his family's money to lead a referendum act that overturned the law and returned the death penalty. He has done more than preside, he's a leader in the effort to use the death penalty.
7
I thought the Times and the majority of its readership bristled at the idea of religious leaders trying to impose their beliefs on secular governments...
4
Come on people - Pope Francis did not lead the Inquisition nor did he burn someone at the stake. Let's get in the now and look to the future. Just as I heard Sarah Huckabee say yesterday "the president has a right to express his opinion" -- so does the Pope.
@Charles
He did not address the issue from a political stance, but, as one of humanity, somewhat along the lines of the stupidity of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
A somewhat misleading article designed, I suppose, to give the impression that this minor shift is a major one, i.e. to give the false impression that the Catholic Church previously favored the death penalty as a general proposition, burying the previous stance near the bottom figuring many will never get to it, i.e that the death penalty was previously considered acceptable if it was "the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor." Though the NYT also changes "possible" to "practicable". Our paper of record.
2
Very interesting comments on this thread.
The Pope's endorsement of social evolution and changed circumstances was astonishing. I doubt it will persuade certain populations to stop worrying about how much or how little God wants them to kill at certain times, but it certainly has made it more difficult to claim that anyone -- even the Pope -- knows God's preference.
That may explain why this was not declared to be an infallible teaching. And that is a major rupture with medievalism.
5
This is a good start, but it's only a start!
Because when you really think about it, incarcerating someone for years on end - maybe even their whole life - is just as cruel, inhumane, and irrational.
Just think about it, if a young MS-13 member murders someone in a fit of passion or rage, it was probably just in the heat of the moment. It was hormones, maybe a lifetime of being treated poorly by the white majority, or the English speaking majority.
After a few years have passed, is that young person the same person as the one who committed the crime? It's debatable. Are they still a threat? Probably not. Would it be better for society to forgive them, and re-accept them? Absolutely, on multiple grounds.
So while I commend the Pope for realizing what liberals have always known, he can do far, far better than this. And its time for all of us to reconsider long term incarceration, no matter the crime. This is the truly "Christian" position on the matter.
Any victim family members who think otherwise are holding vengeance in their hearts, or are hate-filled. They need our help and pity, they DON'T need us to grant their sick revenge fantasies!
End Incarceration Now!
4
This guy, who was in the hierarchy of the church during the institutional sodomizing of thousands of children over the course of decades, has no moral authority to speak to anything that involves "...dignity of the person". How about the dignity of the victims, many of which still suffer in silence, as well as those that committed suicide or lived (an continue to live) lives of misery?
7
Please separate the multitude issues facing Pope Paco. I don't condone the horrendous manner of the sexual abuse (apples).
Let's realize as adults we can get keep a variety of issues on mind simultaneously.
This statement is about being Pro-Life...trying to bring up all the other aspects of being pro-life than abortion.
3
Nine million men died in World War I and 48 million perished in World War II. This belief that “every life is precious” , even those of psychopathic butchers and serial rapists is carrying that premise way too far.
3
Nice of the Pontiff to come around to the merciful and sane. Killing is only acceptable when required for survival. Anyone in the position to impose penalties in not worried about survival.
5
Another item on the menu for the Conservative Cafeteria Catholics this time. They don't support abortion or contraceptives, but an order of capital punishment is just fine. This will be interesting for all of those Catholic Supremes.
9
Shows ya' what a good Catholic I have been. I just assumed the Catholic Church was against Capital Punishment. After all, isn't that how Jesus was killed?
8
Wasn't the whole premise of Christianity that someone innocent had to be slaughtered to appease the top divinity?
Didn't Abraham start a religion when he heard a voice, his conscience, tell him NOT to sacrifice his cherished first born to the dirty as all other surrounding religions of that region did in that era?
2
This Pope is a hack. Time after time he embarrasses himself and the church. His teachings and revision of the catechism are reprobate.
2
@Piotr - Shame on him for following the teachings of Christ!
3
Past Popes going back 2,000 years, for sure, well into the 20th century. Give examples of your charge for Pope Paco.
1
I guess it's evil to execute a man who rapes, tortures and murders a toddler, buts it okay to protect priests and church l leaders who repeadly raped childrren over decades? No wonder The Church is in trouble. Young people will not support such hypocaracy anmore. This pope was looking better than the other Old Men, but he's a loser too.
7
It really doesn't matter to catholic Trump voters, they are worshiping the evil anyway.
13
The evidence does not support a deterrent effect of the death penalty on future homicides, and we have sent more than 160 innocent people to death row. The only conclusion from these two facts is that the death penalty most likely increases the deaths of innocent human beings. The reason why people support capital punishment is that the revenge makes them feel good, not because it is good public policy.
As Albert Camus said, "Let us call it by the name which, for lack of any other nobility, will at least give it the nobility of truth, and let us recognize it for what it essentially is: a revenge. ... This is an emotion, and a particularly violent one, not a principle."
14
Except for those murdered.
5
If all life is sacred at conception, how dare humans take any life at any time? The pope's position is right but I wonder what took him so long to find it.
3
New York has the death penalty, the map is wrong. The governor just announced he might seek its abolition.
2
Until our Pope orders the excommunication of every single pedophile clergyman and they are all remanded to the appropriate civil authorities for prosecution, everything he says or does is tarnished.
There is nothing worse than taking advantage of children while in a position of power and authority, especially in a religious environment. Except maybe the coverup.
5
A couple of interesting point to me..
1) The Pope is making the doctrine of the right to life consistent. The Church is against abortion, suicide, euthanasia and now, finally, the death penalty. At least its consistent now.
2) Map showing where the death penalty is in force is eye opening. Which parts of the country have the least violent crime? Northeast and Upper Midwest. Granted its not a 100% correlation, but its pretty eye opening.
3) NYT should have also included a map of the world with what countries still have the death penalty. Its essentially the US, China, Japan, India and a number of Muslim countries. Japan surprised me - they executed 44 people since 2010. Since 2010, 106 people have been executed in Texas alone. Japan has 5x the population of Texas.
8
@Sxm Yet Japan has a much lower violent crime rate. I suspect you'll find that Japan executes a higher percentage of its murderers than Texas does.
1
In early July Japan executed at least 7 people responsible for the nerve gas attack tat occurred in the subway back in 1995
A story about who is executed in low execution nation Japan would be fascinating.
This seems to be a good Papal declaration.
Now, why not develop a declaration about the unacceptability, in all cases, of abuses to children that have occurred to thousands of children in thousands of parishes, and develop a protocol for handling sex abuse allegations for the Catholic Church as a whole?
Despite establishing a commission to look into the problem and address a backlog of cases, Pope Francis has still not established any protocol for handling sex abuse allegations for the Catholic Church as a whole.
The Vatican has willingly buries information and claims of abuse until it has no option but to go public. The church still has not grappled seriously with the scope of the problem - and still does not get how wrong it is to bury the actions of abusers and bullies within its ranks.
Only through the brave public actions of the abused are people such as McCarrick being dealt with by the church - and that is only occurring because vatican lawyers realize that burying McCarrick under rocks (like they've done with countless other priests) will not work this time.
Some day, hopefully soon, the church will have a leader who will attack the church's history of denial, burial of accusations, and history of abuse head on, directly, without flinching, and without fear.
1
@Ed
Unfortunately the Pope is outnumbered by the Curia, regardless of what he believes and what changes need to be made in the Church. Time to get rid of the curia running things rather than the Pope.
I'm still developing my views on issues surrounding sanctioned death. For example, I highly support alternatives to abortion rather than abortion to an almost pro-life stance. At the same time, I don't approve of the death penalty (except in cases where the fact that the convicted is alive is a risk to others). I paradoxically approve of state-sanctioned euthanasia for the seriously convicted, terminally ill, and severely mentally ill as well, as long as it's a highly cautious and sanctioned process. Yet, I'm not totally convinced of my views.
1
Maybe we should eliminate capital punishment in America, but not before the perpetrators of the opioid crisis are squarely dealt with.
3
@A. Stanton
Doctors and dentists?
6
@Pecan
If they had a big hand in it, maybe yes.
Yes...especially those prescribing opioids for strained ligaments---what ever happened to running dirt on a wound (actually a good practice to get bacteria into our bloodstreams) and applying her and mostly ice for such physical issues.
1
I am not Catholic, but I am in full agreement with the pope on this issue. For one more reason. The death penalty is a waste and not only for the high trial costs that it carries. It is a waste because by killing those that commit the worst crimes we are disposing of a source of information that can potentially lead to reduce the occurrence of such crimes. And we do this for the mundane satisfaction offered by a sense of revenge. Which is by the way often the driving emotion of those committing murders: revenge against a particular person, revenge against women or people belonging to some "other" group. Revenge against perceived life injustice. Death is the ultimate destiny for all of us and death is often not seen as a harsh deterring penalty for those that give death to others. A life in captivity is likely a worst perspective for them. But it offers some opportunity for the rest of society to further study the mind, the inner motives and the patterns of behavior of those that commit the worst of crimes. These people should be rendered innocuous and studied. They should be kept alive against their will if needed.
6
What do we do with the violent, unrepentant, often psychopathic murderers given life without parole who are a danger to others (inmates and staff) in prison? Currently we put them in solitary confinement which drives many of them into further violent mental illness and extreme behavior. Then what? Forced chemical restraints and life as a medicated zombie? At what point does it cross the line into torture worse than anything inflicted on death row? At what point does talk about ensuring human dignity lose any meaning for such prisoners?
We have a humanitarian problem here that is much bigger than simply banning the death penalty. There are some things truly worse than death imo. Let's make sure this is not a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire.
3
My impression is that American Catholics generally march to the beat of their own drummer, and don't take orders from the Vatican on what policy positions to vote for. However, this a powerful statement from a globally reaching Bully Pulpit, for lack of a better term.
This only makes sense considering the Church's important opposition to abortion. Ironically many will applaud this action by Pope Francis while continuing to argue for the "right to choose" whether a child will survive his or her mother's pregnancy.
3
I'll take a hard pass on advice on morality from one of the most morally bankrupt institutions on the planet, but thanks anyway.
7
@Edward I'm really glad that you've decided to not consider the Republican party's take on morality.
8
I dont care what the fake pope says. if its a sin its a sin, he does not make the rules, God does. It was a sin it still is ,whatever the sin is. He doesn't get to pick and choose for everybody, just for himself.
@????? He didn't say anything about a sin. He's talking about punishment. Did you not get that?
3
I wonder if God considers a desire for vengeance a sin? That seems to be the driver behind the death penalty. Curious how so many religious conservatives are deeply in favor of diametrically-opposed concepts. "No abortions" - every life is valuable. "No welfare" - every infant and child, once born, needs to be on their own. "Death penalty OK" - because once we convict you, you're better dead. So much for "every life is valuable". Doesn't seem to bother them much, though. Look at how many of them, big fans of "no adultery", support politicians who brag about their adultery.
5
The Pope has made a divinely inspired decision that has an equally strong basis in the secular world. Some individuals can change and even if imprisoned for life can make worthwhile contributions to society; some cannot and knowing they will always be in captivity is literally a fate worse than death. But most important, we as a society have killed innocent people in the name of "justice" and even one such instance is an abomination against God for those who believe and human dignity for those who do not.
1
Don't show your ignorance.
According to eccisiastical law, any Pope statement is not "divinely inspired" unless it is offered as an official statement.
And even if a statement made, that has only been "infallible" since 1875. So for almost 2,000 years the Pope was not infallible.
2
The Catholic prohibition against condoms in Africa and elsewhere is equivalent to a death sentence for many. It is difficult for me to take seriously moral statements from an institution that encourages the spread of AIDS in Africa, which is just one of many other horrific moral violations, such as the Catholic Church's reprehensible treatment children.
5
Agreed...very bad position by the Vatican.
Accepting condoms would prevent unwanted births, and also the transmission of disease.
Logic, as put forth by Catholic intellectuals like Augustine in the 300s AD and Thomas Aquinas in the 1500s would be more logical in accepting the new found realities via scientific discovery.
Time for the Church to go back to the intellectual, fact-based Counter-Reformation mind-set.
2
Fathe McCloskey says: “it is a great grace to know the time of one’s death, as it gives us the opportunity to get right with the Lord who will judge us at our death. Perhaps many people have been saved in this way by the death penalty.”
I am astounded by that comment. It echoes exactly what the Spanish (and other) Inquisition (15th to beginning of the 19th century) demanded of its victims. They had to thank the torturers for saving their souls. The "tribunal' then handed them to the secular power for execution (usually through further torture laden deaths) as they had admitted their guilt under torture....
...and of course McCloskey demands that gratitude even from folks wrongly condemned.... just like Inquisitioners did. Of course the old Inquisitioners were thirsty for the pain and blood of their victims whereas we modern folks are not???
(I tried to be ironic, but it makes me so disheartened about my species....)
1
I don't think the government should be able to kill anyone I don't think anyone should be able to kill anyone that is up to the universe and its devices we are not to make them decisions who are we to make them decisions.
1
This paragraph particularly caught my attention:
"[Justice Antonin Scalia] wrote that it would be a bad idea if Catholic judges had to recuse themselves in death penalty cases"
Hold on a second, so, following the same principle, shouldn't Catholic judges recuse themselves in abortion-related cases? They can go ahead and rule based on their religious beliefs in one case, but in the other they would have to recuse themselves instead?
It is becoming increasingly evident how Religious Conservatism is not about religion influencing politics, but just politics posing as religious beliefs, to abuse the privilege and ideological free pass traditionally allotted to religion. If you can cherry-pick which of the basic tenets of your particular denomination are morally binding, the "deeply hold religious beliefs" argument becomes senseless.
16
I Love Pope Francis!
I may disagree with him on certain issues, but, I've never disagreed with his heart. He may stumble at times, but no spiritual leader in decades has walked the walk the way he has.
In an age of self-serving liars, he brings intelligence, compassion, honesty, integrity, and a genuine humility to the world stage.
More than anyone else, he embodies what I consider to be the real essence of the Catholic Religion - and that's empathy. The ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and ask, "How would being this person make me feel?", and, as a result, "What can I do to make their life better?" Compassion is the by-product of empathy. It's also known as caring. Caring about someone other than just yourself.
One of the greatest insights one can have about oneself is that, ultimately, it's not about you. It's about everyone and everything. Empathy is the driving force that binds all living things together. And it's cousin, wonder, is what binds us to the universe.
Considering Pope Benedict XVI's "once in 400 years" abdication, you could make a strong argument that Pope Francis is, in fact, a miracle!
7
This is a good thing, but.... Now, anti-abortion Catholics will be able to be more logically consistent, which helps the anti-abortion agenda. It's reasonable to now expect more weight on the anti-abortion argument.
3
Without capital punishment, what would the ultimate punishment be? Life without parole? (That will be the next target, but that's a subject for another time.) Suppose someone is sentenced to life w/o parole in a non-capital punishment state and he commits another murder, whether of another inmate, a guard, or, if he escapes, anyone. A couple of years ago, two men escaped from prison in New York, which does not have capital punishment. One had been sentenced to life w/o parole. What was the deterrent to him for committing other crimes, including murder, and what would his punishment have been if he did? Capital punishment is the ultimate deterrent against the perpetrator.
What about the principle of retribution? Some deserve execution. Google "Wichita massacre", for instance. As a Catholic, I am disappointed but not surprised by Francis' statement.
1
@goackerman There is not, and never has been, a "principle of retribution" in Catholic teaching. And capital punishment has been repeatedly disavowed as a deterrent.
5
Good teaching, bad timing. It will push conservative, working-class Catholic strongholds like Pennsylvania further away from the Pope & the Church, and closer to Trump, with particularly consequential elections coming up this November and in 2020.
I doubt that capital punishment will be the most important topic influencing voters in Pennsylvania. So have to disagree with your logic.
4
I'm a Catholic and I'm surprised to find out that that was not the church official stance. "Respect the sanctity of life from conception to natural death" from the womb to the tomb.
This is an important declaration. I’m against the death penalty because of its irrevocable mistake on false charges. The article, in its end, also reports the other problem, namely the ill-doing nature of execution manners. On NYT some time ago, Roger Cohen wrote about a case to describe how cruelly it had been tried to a death row prisoner who was already suffering from the terminal stage of illness. **** Human dignity was mentioned above all in the article. If any other change, rectification, or notification of whatever kind are possible, I will hope the following: In local Catholic Churches, all parishioners should be regarded equally as dignified human beings, regardless of their different marital situations such as having many children or no children. The Bible said of procreations. Jesus said of children to be the first of all. Which, however, should not be misinterpreted as the basis of the Catholic communal hierarchy according to which the consensus pushes down married Catholics with no children (if not big donors) to the lowest. I see no respect for human dignity in such a practice.
1
Thou shalt not kill.
5
If only people would abide by that...then there would be no need for discussion of capital punishment.
2
I hope he is not speaking from some imagined moral authority. That train left a long time ago
7
This was an easy one.............
"Thou Shalt NOT Kill".
5
@Shakinspear
It happens to be "thou shalt not murder".
2
Amen! Real Christians values are definitive in their respect for humanity. Thou shalt not kill!
Thou shalt not kill, humiliate, maim, insult, or wage war against another human.
Thank you, Jesus and your spokesman, Pope Francis.
We should all respect one another in the manner in which we ourselves would like to be respected.
How can a human deliberately want to kill another?
Proud to be a Catholic liberal with deep respect for life.
8
No war, ever? No response to Pearl Harbor attack type of events? No response if North Korea shoots missiles at USA cities?
1
"Father McCloskey argued that for any human being, “it is a great grace to know the time of one’s death, as it gives us the opportunity to get right with the Lord who will judge us at our death. Perhaps many people have been saved in this way by the death penalty.”
"What sophistic nonsense! This guy sounds like Trump. How about giving the one who is going to get murdered by the State the rest of his life to get it together for the "Lord", top say nothing for her/him self.
6
Finally, a constructive and definitive position taken by the Vatican on something.
5
Pope Francis has declared that the death penalty is always unacceptable. This is a good start. He should now address the abortion debate and say publicly this is also unacceptable too. He is against abortion but should be more forceful.
We have seen 60 million innocent fetuses' lives cut way too short. Maybe Pope Francis could make another trip to the US and speak before congress and express his opposition to abortion. The Democratic Party has taken a stand against the death penalty and now they need to have an anti-abortion one. Maybe Pope Francis could convince them of the evil of abortion and convince them this is one of the most important human rights issues of our day. They might even listen to him.
1
Because of the impossibility of it being fairly applied, Mr. Justice Harry Blackmun turned against capital punishment: "From this day forward, I no longer shall tinker with the machinery of death."
8
I haven't read the Pope's comments, so I may be speaking out of turn, but I can't help wondering if the Pope cited any Biblical justification for his position. It is, of course, impressive to cite the opinions of St Thomas and St J-P II, but both of those men - however sainted - are men and subject to the fallacies inherent in all humans. Perhaps Pope Francis has received a Divine revelation; if so, he needs to state this openly. Or perhaps if Pope Francis had cited a statement from Jesus - or even a passage from Jewish law - to justify the Papal opinion, one might find his opinion more impressive. As it (apparently) stands, this statement is simply Francis' opinion and without any support from the founding document of the Christian faith: ie the Bible.
1
Official Roman Catholic teaching has changed radically over the centuries--but it did so slowly and out of the limelight. There were no newspapers, television or internet to notice when "usury" oh so gradually changed from lending money at any interest at all to lending money at excessive interest, to give one example.
Even the elimination a few years ago of the doctrine of the existence of limbo would have caused much more of an uproar today. (The explanation that it was not really an official or central teaching is balderdash--I'm old enough to remember when it was quite official and central, thank you very much.)
It looks like Francis is preparing for necessary doctrinal changes, especially around issues of sexuality, by getting people used to the idea gradually over a period of time, and by somewhat offhandedly reminding us of the doctrine of the primacy of individual conscience.
Some other changes that are doctrinally possible today but that would change the atmosphere greatly would be allowing priests to marry before and after ordination, allowing women to have more official power, and even naming women as rectors of parishes or as cardinals.
5
I grew up in rural Georgia, where Catholics were viciously scorned. Years later I was astounded to see the southern evangelical embrace of anti-abortion politics and then their adoration of the Pope. In other ways they embraced aspects of Catholicism that would have been mocked land derided in my youth. I belong to the school of no single answer. I think the anti-abortion fanaticism comes from a fear of women. I think their delight in the Pope comes from a delight in authoritarianism. Now that he has spoken against the death penalty--the death penalty is a central dogma of evangelical Christians--I will be curious to see if they continue slavishly to follow authority. My guess is that they will simply ignore the Pope, because punishment of others is more important than logic. In a better world, religion will have withered away. Not there yet.
6
OK, but can there be an exception for collusion?
11
While Francis's edict is logically consistent if you start with the proposition that every human life is created by and belongs only to God, it doesn't work on a universal practical level. It only works for societies which have the resources both to protect its members and to sustain the dangerous. One wonders how nomads, for example, would manage this. But there is no reason why the richest country in the history of the world needs the death penalty.
4
Hmm, it has been a mystery to me how anyone, given the clear evidence that innocent people have been executed, or that there is a clear bias in the way that the death penalty is exacted, could support it. Now the Catholic church will teach that the death penalty is wrong. That is a step forward. How many Americans will now claim to be Catholic and at the same time reject this teaching. It will be interesting to see.
In the same vein, this clearly requires Catholics to do everything in their power to preserve life. That would include doing everything possible to prevent a situation that would result in loss of life. "Stand your ground" cannot be a Catholic opinion either.
7
Dylann Roof is scheduled to die by lethal injection for the 2015 massacre at the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina.
The daughter of one of the victims poignantly expressed her feelings about his pending execution.
"Despite the anger I am still coping with from my mother's death, I don't believe in the death penalty, even for the man who killed her. That's my conviction because of my faith," she said. "I've said the same thing all along -- I don't believe as human beings that we should take away someone's life just because we have the power to do so. God is the only person, the only being who decides our fate."
All who are vehemently in favor of the death penalty must respect her belief that human beings are not ordained to carry out the work of the Divine. They must make their own personal decisions and reflect upon the inmate on death row as if he were their own child.
5
I have wavered back and forth on the death penalty but have been open to the idea that many can achieve redemption from the evil they have committed. The death penalty is also biased against the poor and people of color and often the innocent is wrongfully executed.
I now agree that it should be abolished.
Thanks Pope Francis you are a beacon of love and humanity.
11
I’m against the death penalty for a few reasons but the top two legal-system ones are:
The system is rigged against minorities.
Guilt is determined by the opinions of twelve people and the ability of the defendant to afford decent representation.
Until guilt can be guaranteed, one life wrongly taken is one life too many.
9
From conception to natural death....I pray for the intentions of Pope Francis.
This statement is about the overall dignity of human life, not about the acts of any given individual. It is a statement that says we as a civilization/society don't have to be killers like the people who kill. We can choose to be better than that. What better way to show that killing another human is wrong than for a government to refuse to kill as a punishment.
The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent, never has, never will.
7
Father McCloskey argued that for any human being, “it is a great grace to know the time of one’s death, as it gives us the opportunity to get right with the Lord who will judge us at our death. Perhaps many people have been saved in this way by the death penalty.”
Unless, of course, you:
Aren't a Catholic or a believer, OR
Are innocent.
Men and women err in their judgments and can be duped.
The penalty is permanent.
It must be abolished.
3
For years I have been chanting to fellow Catholics, "you cannot be pro-life and pro-death penalty." I argued that to think otherwise was hypocrisy as the Church teaches us that "all life is sacred" and that, to be consistent, must be applied from the womb to death row. Life with no chance of parole protects society. Vengeance should be left to "others". Let us not forget the innocent executed. But all this will be preaching the choir. Our great divide continues.
9
Carrying your premise one step further every pro-life person should be anti-gun but quite the opposite is the case. Go figure.
6
@Mark Miller
All religions are hypocritical as long as there are wars.Capital Punishment, is no more then orchestrated murder, & does nothing to prevent murder.
4
I vaguely remember reading something a long time ago when I was in college in an essay by somebody who was arguing that capital punishment was no deterrent to crime. He described how, back in olde England capital punishment was a public spectacle and was administered for a whole list of crimes including pickpocketing. While the crowds were gathered to watch the hanging or worse of some unfortunate thief, the pickpockets were busy working the crowd.
Taking a life is a serious matter. THE serious matter.
I support the death penalty.
I expect the proper officials to take all the time necessary, examine all the evidence, and re-examine it, and strain it through the finest filters available.
And do it all again, if needed.
But if, at the end of such a laborious, costly and contentious process, the accused is found guilty of taking a life then I want that person's life ended.
Acting on my behalf, having observed all processes required to determine guilt, I want to the state to take the life of the murder.
Why? Because the victim's life was precious and now is no more.
Killing the murderer will not bring the victim back.
Killing the murderer will, most likely, not serve to deter others from murdering.
I would rejoice if the murderer evidenced a profound change of heart, expressing genuine remorse for the murder.
I still want the state to kill the murderer.
The life of the victim was precious.
The Pope has erred. The commandment is not, "You shall not kill." The commandment is, "You shall not murder." God is every bit as much a God of justice as He is a God of redemption.
Let the forgiven murderer rest in the bosom of heaven to the glory of a gracious God.
Let the state execute justice in this life, here and now.
2
@Tim Alexander But if as you admit, it serves no purpose of deterrence, where is the societal good in killing them? It costs more in American to execute someone than it does to house them for life. They have already been a drain on society, why exacerbate that by pursuing the death penalty? And why do two wrongs make a right?
7
If this is truly a genuine overriding moral principle, based on the sanctity of life, and not just the political musings of a liberal leader, then here is the logical conclusion that everyone should agree with:
1. No executions for any crime, no matter how heinous.
2. No abortions, at any time, for any reason.
O.K. libs, just has precious is a human life?
@FreeNYT now But, both #1 and #2 are basic tenets of the Church's philosophy. You are not exposing a hypocrisy here, at least not from the point of view of the Church. In fact, I would not be surprised if point #2 is animating his clarification of point #1 (which has in recent history basically been the philosophy).
The Death Penalty issue is an easy one for logic; It is not "Justice". It is state sanctioned revenge and terror. Right out front the governments call it a "Deterrent". That's just a nice word that means to scare the citizens.
2
Just to correct a point:
In the original Hebrew, the commandment says: " Thou shalt not murder."
Executions for murder were not included in the prohibition. Also, killing someone about to murder others was not prohibited.
4
@Writer Surely God did not permit a mistranslation of his Word. "Thou shalt not kill" is what he allowed to be written and read for centuries. Or is he just having another of his jokes?
2
Yes, the Christians changed translations of several things. ( No prophesy of a virgin giving birth, for example!)
1
As a Catholic, how does Pete Ricketts reconcile his preference for the death penalty over the commandment “Thought shall not kill”. The same type of people who argue for an end to abortion are the same ones who support the death penalty.
Huh? This is one of the (many) reasons I decided years ago that organized religion wasn’t for me. On the other hand, good for Pope Frances for making this declaration.
It's time to stop reinforcing the connection between conservative Catholics and disregard for convicts, LGBT+ individuals, etc. Pope Francis has a clear message of love--it's time to ride this wave to new moral ground.
5
This makes me so happy! God bless you, Pope Francis. Catholic doctrine on life is now officially consistent.
2
For a church that reveres the death penalty visited by their god upon his son, they're pretty cavalier about a practice that is documented in their scriptures since Adam and Eve. If you're so offended by the death penalty, quit wearing those crosses - an implement of tortured death, as a badge of faith.
2
@Honey:
You are mixing your metaphors. Jesus was brutally killed as He was God made man, and His death was why He was made man: to repent our sins, and begin His new religion. He was frightened as He knew what awaited Him. His death was predetermined. He, was tortured by His fear, and the brutality, but fulfilled His reason for existing: to take away the sins of man, and begin His church. You either believe and honor that sacrifice, or you don't. That's what free will is all about.
P.S.- I will wear my crucifix as I see fit. After all, it is my free will to believe, as it is yours not to believe.
States cannot competently handle a death penalty policy. They cannot find acceptable painless methods to execute people. The legal process is not sufficiently reliable. The fraction of innocent people sentenced to death penalty is estimated to be 1 in 25 - an outrageously high number. The death penalty is expensive. The amount of tax-payers money that could be saved by California in the next 20 years if it were to abolish the death penalty is estimated to be 5 billion dollars - a lot of money for no improvement in public safety. I wonder what nonsense motivated California voters to reject repeal of the death penalty in 2016.
1
Who asked him? He is the head of a foreign government. His opinion should not affect how we get rid of vicious murderers, unless he is willing to house them at the Vatican.
4
@S.L. You seem not to know that the Catholic Church is the largest of all the Christian denominations in this country. I have no doubt the Pope was also addressing Venezuelans, Argentines, Congolese, Nigerians, Brazilians, whose Catholic faith is practiced in much greater percentages and with greater fervor than it is in the USA.
4
'Perhaps many people have been saved in this way by the death penalty.'
To me, this is an oxymoron.
5
@Jean It's not when you understand that he wasn't talking about saving their earthly life but their eternal soul.
Too late ... The centuries of Inquisition cannot, and should not, be forgotten.
1
Pope Francis went to Myanmar and only uttered the word ‘Rohingya’ after he was back home in his castle. He has also used the words “fake news” to dismiss allegations of sexual abuse directed at a member of the Church.
The degree of blatant sanctimony is offensive.
2
@ubique Actually he issued a formal message condemning the use of the term "fake news" (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/01/24/the-pope... and has been forcing the resignations of church hierarchy involved in covering up or perpetuating sexual abuse.
On the Rohingya, it's easy to criticize from your couch, not being there. It seems reasonable to me that he would want to be less confrontational at an early meeting as a relationship building tactic. A speech by a Catholic pope in Burma is not a speech to his own flock, after all.
But, don't let the facts slow your roll. It is 2018, after all.
7
“Inadmissible”? That’s a term relating to a trial court’s ruling on evidence proferred in criminal and civil trials. Is that a correct translation of what he said? Or did he actually use the word for “inappropriate” or “unconscionable” or “inapplicable” or some similar term indicating that the death penalty should never be applied to any criminal case no matter the savagery or heinous nature of that crime.
1
So what.
The pope speaks for a fundamentally arch-conservative, misogynistic organization that faces countless human scandals and does everything it can to defeat family planning and oppose abortion.
How many liberal commentators are OK with the whole church message?
1
Furthering the march to irrelevance for this institution. The death penalty is all around us. From warfare to everyday inequality resulting in death. Why should convicted first-degree murderers get a break?
The Catholic Church? Retroactively? One of the great executioners of all time? Give me a break.
6
Yup! ol' scare 'em before death TO death McCloskey. Only those who think they are holier than thou and thee and you and me think it's a good idea to have The Lord hold a pistol against the temple of a convicted man or woman so that they have time to come to terms with God.
But I say listen to Christ himself. Take this, for instance:
"Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone."
"Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy." And
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you."
Then he said, "Love one another."
Nothin' in THAT lengthy commandment that mentions electrocution, is there?
Sorry. I must have missed something. Oh, well...darn!
Off with their heads!
1
No more death penalty.
Those who think such a barbaric practice should continue should be willing to serve as the killer. If everyone is required to serve on juries, why shouldn't everyone be required to take a turn as an executioner?
And let the condemned prisoner choose her means of execution: hanging, drawing and quartering with optional disembowelment, firing squad, drowning, guillotine, beheading, etc.
(As to "Father"McCloskey of Opus Dei? He would make a great executioner. His converts to the Escriva cult, like Clarence Thomas, Larry Kudlow, et al., could help him swing the ax.)
2
Well, it appears the Pope has FINALLY met a Texan......
The pope is thinking ahead to when the death penalty is enacted for sexually abusing little girls and boys.
Seriously, the church becomes more irrelevant every day.
6
Why is this news?
4
Was the Pope speaking to his pro life born again something religious crowd? Good luck with that...
1
I would make an exception to eliminating the death penalty for those guilty of sexually abusing a child.
1
Apparently Pope Frank needs to brush up on his history.
Is there anyone who would argue with the death penalty for OBL, Stalin, Pol Pot or Hitler. How about the Japanese Officer in charge of the Bataan Death March or the German Officer who executed American POWs. How about Nathan Bedford Forrest, who presided over the Fort Pillow Masscre where American Soldiers- some who were African-American- were POWs during the Civil War? The Las Vegas shooter, Tim McVeigh?
There are crimes so heinous that there is no possibility of redemption or restitution. I get that the Catholic Church is based upon the concept of the redemption of humankind, but we are a secular state along with most developed nations.
The standard should be high, but there are crimes worth the death penalty. Warehousing Charles Manson was a waste of money and time.
5
@David Gregory Only God gets to decide that some crimes are so heinous that there is no possibility of redemption or restitution. You don't.
As for Manson, as long as your put a dollar amount on human life, even one as miserable as his, you'll never understand its sanctity.
1
Big deal. There’s no moral authority in the Catholic Church as long as they continue to shelter child molesters and sexual predators.
2
The Pope should be just emphatic that abortion murders unborn children, and many of his own priests continue to destroy lives through sexual abuse and misconduct. Perhaps it's time for the Pope to tend to his flock instead of trying to run a multi-national corporation which he holds no training for.
1
And, how about some focus on abuse by his priesthood ranks?
2
The Pope needs to up the ante up against Trump, the Purveyor of Death Penalty on so many levels.............
2
Of course it would make this pronouncement! It's everlasting goal is to overpopulate the earth and convert all to Catholicism!!
1
I am conflicted about the death penalty. Some people's behavior is so heinous, they "deserve" it. On the other hand, I recognize it is not a deterrent for anything either.
We human beings have a "vengeful streak" within us when we are wronged. Sometimes we can forgive, sometimes we cannot. The State is the mechanism by which we seek justice, or frankly, state-sanctioned vengeance, including death.
But giving people a life sentence, spent in isolation, in which they lose their mind and suffer endlessly, is not "better" than the death penalty either. Let's be real.
5
So the Pope can't issue the death penalty, how nice. Fortunately in the US religion does not control, I seem to remember a president that indicated that what the Pope might say or think would have no impact on his policies. A very famous president too.
3
Dio ti benedica Papa Francesco.
As a former Roman Catholic (born and raised) I was always - to this day - under the impression that the Church categorically opposed the death penalty. It is premeditated, first-degree murder, in cold blood, period.
The quote from this McCloskey character sounds like a paraphrase of that Vietnam War quote of some US Army official that they had to destroyed the entire village full of people in order to save them (from the Vietcong).
There have been very, very few truly "Christlike" popes in the entire history of the institution (and some who were, were for that reason assassinated by the Cardinals close to them).
You're a good man Papa Francesco.
11
This “change” is so slight that it is effectually meaningless in the United States. As stated in the article, the previous stance of the RCC was that the death penalty was allowable if it would be “the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.” The United States is too wealthy and stable a country for this to be the situation here. So the death penalty has been against Catholic teaching all along, as I was taught in Catholic school back in the 1970s.
3
@B
All you say is true.
At the very least, though, this might give the many Catholic justices controlling our lives via SCOTUS pause before they dwell on their excruciatingly moral Catholic philosophy.
Because you know not one of them agrees with this pronouncement or this Pope. Fakers all.
1
had a lot of theology in college and always wondered how the teachings could allow capital punishment and yet against abortion even in the case of the life of the mother. So, personally, I as opposed to the death penalty; I never thought it was a good idea to give that much power to the state.
5
Actually, perpetual incarceration without parole, the maximum penalty in Holland, is a lot more cruel than the death penalty.
Albert, that very much depends on the person. When I represented people sentenced to death, some of them had found meaning in life, even in prison, and desperately wanted to continue living even if it meant living in prison for the rest of their lives.
13
As a human being I applaud this.
As a Catholic I celebrate it.
As an American I’d be interested to see if we can find a way to run our prison system in a less racist, even-handed, non-solitary-confinement-doling, more cost-effective way.
10
I'm glad he's saying this now. Pro-Life should mean all life, not just life judged worthy by some imperfect, judgmental human. Considering how often innocent people in the United States are sentenced and executed, it is the right thing to do.
8
The Pope has not been completely forthcoming about his role in Argentina's "dirty war." Before he takes the rest of the world to task about state-sanctioned execution, perhaps he could tell us how many times he looked the other way when people - including priests - were "disappeared" by the government.
1
@Ann
Whatever the answer, it in no way decreases the importance of this pronouncement or the spirit behind it.
Go ahead: ask, investigate, pry. It has little to do with this.
3
I am Catholic and I have been taught the "seamless garment" pro-life ethic. I have always been against capital punishment ishment. I didn't realize that wasn't the official stance. I honor Pope Francis for promoting mercy and love.
16
The brutality of ISIS beheadings made me revisit my support of the death penalty a few years ago, and ultimately transcend a sense of revenge against the Boston city bombers, or others who's wretched acts unequivocally meet the capital punishment standard. I finally changed my mind to oppose the death penalty.
Ultimately, it took too many mental gymnastics to decide that ISIS was a bunch of murderous barbarians, but the death penalty in the US was morally righteous and justifiable. The Catholic church took over 100 pages to carve out justification for capital punishment, while arguing all life is sacred from conception to a natural death.
I could go into all the pros and cons of deterrence and prosecutor leverage vs racial inconstancy in justice, but it isn't that difficult.
"Thou Shall Not Kill" took only four words. No nuance, no mental gymnastics. Morally clarity at its finest.
I slept better after I decided to leave behind my support for the death penalty, and accept life in prison for the worst of the worst. I know I am a better person than they are because I can turn the other cheek, rather than demand a life for a life.
I agree with my Pope!!
215
@Tom Stoltz Oh, you like the Bible, how about "an eye for an eye"? Adolf Eichmann certainly deserved the death penalty. Sleep all you want, and peace be with you!
1
@Tom Stoltz
Turning the other cheek comes from strength, power and a very profound belief and faith in offering peace
instead of violence.
The life of Jesus was all about offering peace on Earth, rather than violence, revenge and war.
Jesus had the power to defeat the Roman Empire, yet he gave his life for the people of the world.
Love has a power of itself - the death penalty does brutalizes people and their culture.
3
@Tom Stoltz
It happens to be "thou shalt not murder"!
The testaments are filled with killing, and awash in blood.
2
Love this Pope! Pope Francis is the embodiment of humility and compassion, a wonderful man to help bring Jesus to the world!
8
While I appreciate the separation of church and state, I am eager to hear the reaction of Catholics, Evangelicals and other Christians regarding this entirely consistent position on the value of life.
14
@Occupy Government I've always agreed with the church on this one and I'm happy that they've removed the notion of exceptions.
I'm not going to pretend that I weep when some egregious villain is executed. But I aspire to higher principles than are reflected in my most visceral reactions.
6
@Occupy Government
I happen to be a practicing Roman Catholic who is opposed to abortion and the death penalty. I have always found it contradictory that liberals are often for abortion but against the death penalty while conservatives are usually against abortion but for the death penalty. If you are for life, you are for life in all its forms -- potential and criminal included.
I always think of the words of Deuteronomy: "I have set before you life and death, a blessing and a curse. Therefore, choose life." -- thegamesmenplay.com
1
My first response is to welcome this, and i am overall a great admirer of the Pope for his conviction and leadership. But while life is sacred sometimes when I read of an 11 year old girl with a disability being gang-raped by 22 men ( this happened in Chennai recently) I can’t think of how people like that have any claim or right to life.
9
@Deepankar it's not just about them, though. It's about us. It's about who we want to be as a society. Do we want to be merciful, or vengeful?
14
Would you be willing to act as their executioner, or would you leave the killing to someone else?
@Deepankar
There is not one place in the bible in which Christ argues in favor of vengeance. Killing a criminal does not bring justice to the victim. It just contributes to the cheapness of life.
3
Does the pope and RC church think they are holier and more righteous than God Almighty Himself? God commands, "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man." (Gen 9:6 NASB) This command is not eliminated by Christ's command to "Love your enemy." Use your common sense people! If it is a known fact that a person (e.g., James Holmes and Nicolas Cruz) has murdered someone, they deserve death--not 3 meals a day, medical care, a comfy room, etc, for the rest of their life! (If it's circumstantial evidence only, then give them life until they're proven innocent.) If the pope and RC priest and nun activitists want to keep them alive, let them provide the financial support to do so, instead of putting the expensive financial burden on the public. Yet the pope and other self righteous R Catholics won't lift a finger to do so!
1
If you are a Christian, why doesn't Jesus's command to love your enemies override all previous direction?
2
@Jed Is it God’s supposed view that drives you to your conclusion? Or the costs of keeping someone in prison? Or maybe God cares about the outlandish expense of keeping someone incarcerated? How about we don’t quote God as there are quite a few views on who actually speaks for him/her.
2
This is indeed a revision, since the CC itself used to administer the death penalty, dispossess and torture people when it saw fit and when there was no secular rule of law.
History may be inconvenient, but it lends perspective. All church leaders would like you to forget (or not know in the first place) the behavior of the church (for many centuries), when The Holy Inquisition, The Crusades, anti semitic pogroms, wars of religion, were all blessed by popes and bishops.
History also exposes the hypocrisy of never referring to the past behavior of the institution you lead while publicly endorsing its opposite.
6
You don't have to reach back to the "Crusades." Take a look at the atrocities in Argentina during the Dirty War. Who's that playing tennis with the junta big shots? Oh, it's Cardinal Pio Laghi of Opus Dei. (The same cult that "Father" McCloskey belongs to and recruits for.)
1
This from the man who hides behind the largest mercenary army in the world: the Swiss Guards--very capable killers. Of course, he would reply, "Jesus was a good man, but until all men are like him--for ourselves, it will be an eye for an eye, just like the old days." And while the weary refugee masses trudge past its gilded walls and empty palaces, the Vatican State has not accepted a single refugee. How can someone living among the most valuable trappings in the world, understand one sigh of the poor? "One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." A world of difference between bearing the cross, and glibly wearing one.
1
Is the pope speaking ex cathedra or "ex pulpitus bullyus," because there is a big difference when it comes to claiming a "definitive shift in Roman Catholic teaching."
3
The catholic church has stepped on to higher moral ground. This declaration has many implications: obviously the first and most direct is for capital punishment. Another is for those who are pro-choice: this declaration eliminates, for the catholic church, a significant contradiction in the moral positions of opposing abortion but condoning, or not opposing with equal vigor, capital punishment. Another is for those who are pro-life and pro-capital punishment and not catholic: how do they justify that when the catholics can't? Another is the conduct of governments: the drone attacks on foreign military leaders, the assassination of Obama bin Laden: a death in the course of military conflict is one thing, assassination is something else.
2
Hundreds of people convicted of crimes have been proven innocent by DNA, according to the Innocence Project. One wonders given how many convicts are actually innocent, how many people have been wrongly executed? And how many innocent people are on death row and elsewhere in the prison system where there is no DNA to prove they did not commit the crime and someone else did? And knowing how biased our system is against minorities like black men, how can their conviction ever be a just basis for putting them to death? A conservative priest defends killing convicts because it might cause them to make peace with God; but what does a man think of God when he is put to death for a crime he did not commit? And what does the true criminal's think of God when he watches another man die for his crime?
Thank you Pope Francis for recognizing that no matter which way you look at it the death penalty is wrong.
16
The Holy Man is right, the Trumpists are dead wrong.
11
"Mr. McCloskey argued that for any human being, 'it is a great grace to know the time of one’s death, as it gives us the opportunity to get right with the Lord who will judge us at our death. Perhaps many people have been saved in this way by the death penalty.' ”
For those of us who can remember Vietnam, this tactic is no different than the tactic then of "destroying a village in order to save it."
I nominate Rev. McCloskey III as the Westmoreland of the Catholic Church. I wonder if the "American politicians and civic leaders" who follow McCloskey are in some ways like the ones who followed Westmorland and other officials down the lying rabbit hole that was and remains the "error" of America in Vietnam...where countless of other innocents were murdered by the state.
7
So Hitler, Eichmann, Stalin, Pol Pot, and ISIS have all been given a free pass by the Pope? My tax dollars should be spent on supporting and rehabilitating someone who committed crimes against humanity? Really?
It would be nice if our world leaders would stop redirecting attention away from their own sins...
3
@Mighty Mac - Not a free pass. The recognition that there are worse punishments, and sometimes being forced to live locked in a cell with no hope for the rest of one's life is a much more fitting punishment than being released by death.
10
@Mighty Mac Not a free pass — no one is suggesting that they shouldn’t be punished. But the DP is wrong on so many levels — it doesnt deter, it debases society, it’s irreversible — that we are a better society when we don’t kill our fellow human beings, no matter how horrific their crimes. The people you mention exalted in a culture of death and barbarism — the best response to that is take the opposite way.
3
@Mighty Mac I can appreciate your perspective, however, due to the appeals process it is significantly more expensive to have a person on death row then it is to have a person in prison for life.
I haven't checked the updated list in its entirety yet, but I recall doing it several years ago and the list of things considered murder and not to be engaged in, contained everything from abortion to capital punishment to euthanasia. Every sort of human caused death, including termination of a microscopic bastula that hasn't even become a human yet. However, the one glaring absence from their list was WAR.
4
In no case should the state be given license to murder.
11
Hannah Arendt, the brilliant philosopher reporting on the sentencing of Adolf Eichmann, one of the key organizers of the Holocaust, wrote that "No punishment has ever possessed enough power of deterrence to prevent the commission of crimes." Not imposing the death penalty in the face of horrific crimes requires more temperance than many people can muster, and for reasons of retribution, cost of life imprisonment, and others, most people want to delegate to government the power to take life in some circumstances. And in many autocracies, death sentences are political consequences, when the crime is not against the person, but against the state. But mercy is a powerful force in its own right, and one can come to accept that out of 6 billion humans, a few thousand will necessarily out of passion or malice, murder or rape. We need to accept that such people need to be isolated, and helped if and when possible. Having spoken to prisoners serving long sentences in San Quentin, I found that many have a keen sense of right and wrong, accept their punishment, and experience deep, lifelong shame for the harm they caused. Many have benefitted from educational courses and skill training, and within the prison, become productive members of that society. The Pope is teaching us an ultimate lesson in mercy and forgiveness; courage is needed to learn it . Bless him.
22
So much for burning people at the stake! Although should the McCloskey
crowd get back in power, the Church might go back to “saving people” in the traditional way.
5
The "McCloskey crowd" (Opus Dei) doesn't need to "get back in power."
They ARE in power. See, e.g, the SCOTUS. How many members are ruled by Opus Dei?
3
Despite terrorists having terrorists who target families and children, Israel does not have the death penalty.
In Israel, this is especially a problem since there have been peace agreements that have let known terrorists out of jail and in some cases they have gone on to kill again.
In addition, instead of denouncing terror, the Palestinians lionize it naming schools and streets after known terrorists.
They also use US taxpayer money to incentivize terror by using our tax money to pay money for terrorists and their families. Thankfully, there are laws in progress to stop using our tax money to support terror. See The Taylor Force Act.
In cases where there can be definite proof there should probably be the death penalty against terrorists.
4
@David MD
We should also stop sending American taxpayers' dollars to Israel, which has devolved into a racist colonial terror state.
3
Certainly a welcome statement to move society to a higher level of evolution. However first resolve other critical issues especially priests pursuing or tolerating sexual pleasures with children.
4
Why should we listen to these two faced religious leaders? They should clean up their own messes first. They always want to tell people how they think they should be living. Yeah, right.
I have a hard time with the notion that mass murderers and terrorists should have their lives spared.
3
Would you have a hard time serving as an executioner, or should others do the dirty work?
1
@Jean ??? does that include leaders of nations who declare illegal wars on sovereign countries/democracies killings hundreds of thousands civilians, families and children ???
2
I oppose the death penalty.
I also oppose the Catholic Church.
8
This is great news. If only American Catholics will now follow their infallible pope.
2
@dr. c.c.
The problem, doc, is that so many of them have demonstrated they are very fallible Catholics. You reading this, Mr. Douthat?
2
@dr. c.c. Just a correction - the Pope is infallible only when speaking "ex cathedra" which in this case he isn't. Nonetheless, he is correct in this matter
1
I love this Pope.
Whatever your belief, the reality is that Christian teaching is all about empathy, seeing the humanity in the least humane amongst us and loving the ones hardest to love as a result.
The Pope is not a hypocrite. I admire that.
One of the reasons I left Christianity was because of the hypocrisy of much of the teaching--and especially around LGBTQ. This Pope has not gone far enough for the LGBTQ for me to come back, but I appreciate his purity of belief about this issue.
At a time when I walk around angry for the destruction being wrought by people like Donald Trump, the Pope did something for me as well. He reminded me that love is easier on the gut than hatred. I literally felt the weight lift off my shoulders to remember that I can forgive. That everyone carries their loads and sometimes those loads cause a person's actions and heart to do evil.
Why am I comparing Donald Trump to a person in death row?
Because to me, he is my boogeyman. He is the most evil of them all.
So, today, reading about the Pope's stance, I realized that even I can look at a rich, deplorable person like Donald Trump and find his humanity.
I hate the evil he does. He could and should make other choices. But I can't know what damage is happening in his brain. I can hate the action, but I bet he suffers more internally than the least amongst us. But even if I don't believe this, treating him humanely still feels better than harboring hatred.
Thanks, Pope, for this lesson.
18
So true. Well said. Thank you.
3
This is a good thing. Unfortunately, the Church has lost much of it's moral authority over the sex scandals. I'm not sure it's proclamation will make much difference for now.
3
The death penalty ought to go the way of the dodo. Killing one more individual in a capital murder case does return the deceased to a living standard.
3
The church in Rome certainly had no problem with the Inquisition.
I guess death is only legal in the church when getting rid of the competition.
6
@Said Ordaz. It isn't helpful to hold people accountable for the actions of those who have been dead for hundreds of years. If we're going to do that, we might want to take a hard look at our own history before pointing fingers at others. Plus, why go back hundreds of years when you can point to the LIVING molester-priests and their protectors?
1
@Said Ordaz Actually, it did. The Spanish Inquisition was the work of the Spanish crown in defiance of the objections of the pope.
There have been other inquisitions, of course, and I wouldn't be surprised if you told me some of the early ones involved violence. (Probably not as violent as the rituals of the Maya, though.) In modern times, the worst that happened was excommunication.
3
Pope Francis's declaration is both coherent and consistent with Christian teachings.
9
Waiting for the Catholic church to stop offering communion to pro-death penalty politicians and for pro-life groups to start protesting their offices. Unless of course that pro-life stuff is really about subordinating women. Wait a minute ....
2
I really love seeing how much hatred and anger the Catholic Church draws out of people (and make no mistake, the hatred and anger are in you, not in the church, and you should be happy for the exorcism). I wonder why that is? Imagine if Obama had come out with a statement against the death penalty. What would the comments have been like?
6
@Thomas Barack Obama doesn't have a thousands of years of torture behind him. People are angry with the Catholic Church because the pope coming out against the death penalty is at odds with the Church's loooooong history of human rights abuses.
@Thad It really doesn't. The church itself is not even 2000 years old. The various periods of inquisition, to which I assume you are referring in your accusations of human rights abuses, were truly minor affairs, as measured by modern standards, resulting in 1000 or so casualties, the last of them occurring several hundreds of years ago. The United States, which has been around for less than 300 years, has tortured and killed far more people than representatives of the Catholic Church ever did.
@Thad Let me get this straight - the Pope tries to correct an abuse of human sanctity, and you're complaining because you think it's inconsistent with the past?
2
State sponsored executions is the most egregious kind of immorality because they are done with forethought and dispassion.
9
@Ronny
“State sponsored executions is the most egregious kind of immorality because they are done with forethought and dispassion.”
As opposed to the actions of those sentenced to be executed, which are done without forethought and with passion.
There are some nasty types out there whose barbaric acts are sometimes beyond comprehension.
1
@Mike Edwards
Murder by a madman doesn't justify murder by a rational "civilized" society.
1
@Ronny
Remember that guy, Osama Bin Laden?
What should the US have done with him?
The man understands karma.
1
Surely one should not be surprised by his decision. It’s simply true in any religion. Take that, Mike Pence!
11
It muddies the waters of this issue when "arguments" are given against the death penalty as stated here by the Pope, such as the mention of botched executions. One can be against it without seeming to empathize with someone who may have done a terrible thing. After all, their judgement will come before an entity at a higher pay grade than the Pope, presumably. Francis should just say clearly and simply that it is a principle of the Church that capital punishment is not allowable under any circumstances, and leave it at that.
4
The Pope probably has good intentions but his organization is so corrupt it simply has to die.
Catholics have been pushing the same fairy tale for centuries while they forced women to push out war fodder for their power struggles and make HUGE government and donation money that is supposedly meant to care for the poor. They have become one of the biggest government-sponsored health care providers in OUR United States of America.
No more. Time's UP. WE will no longer fund their supposed "community service" with OUR hard-earned taxpayer dollars while they rake in the money - and land- tax free. Women will no longer have their lives and/or bodies controlled by radical, predatory priests or evangelicals.
ALL life is precious, given to each of us by the universe. No one, including the Pope or any supposed "religious" entity, knows who or what the higher power is. We do not need a middle man/woman to connect us with our spirituality - all they want to do is control us.
Catholic and other religios communities are a large part of the social fabric of the world and people do not want to give up that sense of belonging. Fine. Just don't try to force your beliefs on the rest of us.
2
@njglea I am an atheist but please explain to me how this is anything more than anti-Catholic, anti-religious drivel?
If we substitute Jewish or Muslim for Catholic in this piece it's difficult to believe it even would have been permitted -- and rightly so.
Also, whether one agrees with the sentiments expressed or not, these comments are completely off point of the article.
"Don't force your beliefs on the rest of us"? The Pope leads a flock of some 1.3 BILLION people globally, so his pronouncements have some weight. Second, the belief he is "forcing" is essentially one of secular humanism. Don't force mercy, humanity or compassion? There's a good protest sign.
9
I am not an atheist or agnostic, MarkG.
I am a spiritual being having a human experience and want it free from any "religious" doctrine.
Please re-read my post and you will see that.
Happy Day!
Does the pope and RC church think they are holier and more righteous than God Almighty Himself? God commands, "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man." (Gen 9:6 NASB) This command is not eliminated by Christ's command to "Love your enemy." Use your common sense people! If it is a known fact that a person (e.g., James Holmes and Nicolas Cruz) has murdered someone, they deserve death--not 3 meals a day, medical care, a comfy room, etc, for the rest of their life! (If it's circumstantial evidence only, then give them life until they're proven innocent.) If the pope and RC priest and nun activitists want to keep them alive, let them provide the financial support to do so, instead of putting the expensive financial burden on the public. Yet the pope and other RC hypocrites won't lift a finger to do so!
2
Have you ever even seen a prison? Comfy room, medical care, and three ( if you can call them), meals? Consider this, the Bible is not the final word on morality. An eye for an eye, other than leaving everyone blind, is a quaint but obsolete notion. This kind of reminds me of the conservative Christian governors who want so desperately to legally kill someone, they can't see straight.
3
Thou shalt not kill.
1
Protestant here: Thank you, Pope Francis. And now, American "pro-life" Catholics, will you follow your Pontiff's teaching (Biblical teaching) and work to rid the United States of this scourge? Capitol punishment is an abomination.
10
It's about time the Holy Roman Catholic Church showed some moral courage.
4
Finally, self-proclaimed "Christians" do something Christian.
4
Pope Francis should be known as the first truly Christian pope. It's about time!!
8
Criminologists have long known that the death penalty is not a deterrent, in fact, jurisdictions that use the death penalty have higher rates of violent crime because the state sets the violent tone. And with the chance of wrongful convictions and the lengthy appeals capital cases entail, there are no good moral (let alone Christian), legal or economic arguments in favor of keeping capital punishment. It’s just more red meat for the regressive, tyrannical conservative base.
9
This is a Pope who does not arrive at such decisions lightly. He was a Jesuit priest in Buenos Aires when Argentina lived through the era of "the disappeared". Citizens were kidnapped by the military dictatorship, tortured, and sometimes an entire jet was filled with victims who were all tossed out the doors of the flying planes.
8
@Jean
Thanks for that reminder. Americans are mostly unaware of depths of that nightmare. Compounding the horror, the children of the
desaparecidos were sometimes given to murderers' family to adopt. The Pope understands the vicious lengths a government can go to for control.
2
If Democrats offered to make a pro-life deal that heavily restricted guns, eliminated the death penalty, brought about universal health care and also restricted abortion except for health and safety of the mother, would Republicans take it? I doubt it. They are only pro life before birth.
We know for a fact that the death penalty doesn’t deter murder, as Europe isn’t awash in homicide, nor is New York. We know guns lead to more homicide and suicide in the US, and we know Europeans have a longer life expectancy with universal healthcare. At least the Catholic Church is consistently pro-life. Republicans are not.
11
I am married to a forensic psychiatrist. The general public never hears about some of the worse cases. For example, my husband has had two cases in past year that involved cannibalism of parts of the victims.
Really? We should spare such people if convicted by courts?
1
@Someone Are these heinous offenders human manifestations of pure evil? Or are they mentally ill? I would not think that you or anyone else would favor murdering the mentally ill. Would you?
1
"We" should all be required to take turns at executions. Would you be willing to kill a cannibal?
Not every psychopath meets the legal definition for not guilty by reason of insanity. Many psychopaths know what they are doing, and know right from wrong.
That is always the key, no matter how drastic the crime.
Serial killer Bundy was an example of a psychopath who was not insane, and he knew precisely what he was doing.
As someone educated in law school, he was a particularly vile example who attacked and murdered some. In several states.
1
This is the only consistent position someone who is "pro-life" can hold. If one opposes abortion, s/he must also oppose the death penalty. Additionally, capital punishment has been unevenly applied, no matter what the crime. Poor defendants are much more likely to be sent to Death Rows than people who can afford good lawyers.
6
I think vastly reduced death penalty makes sense, along with less incarceration.
However, I would want the death penalty still available for those who do such things as assassinate a President, do a mass shooting of a school/ church/nursing home, etc. , as well as terrorists who target dozens to hundreds of citizens.
1
Interesting in that I attribute the Vietnam war to the Church's anti-communist stance coupled with their concern about the Roman Catholic Diem regime; and of course there's always the Inquisition. That said, this Pope is the best thing that's happened to Catholicism because , as a Jesuit, he is used to critical thinking on difficult issues.
4
Good. A biased system of justice, or one applied unevenly, has meant innocent people were executed, as well as disproportionately black or brown people, or very young prisoners or those with mental illnesses. Life in prison is no picnic.
The Catholic Church has for too long valued the life of a fetus over the life of the mother, the condemned, or the unfairly convicted. Repentance should also matter, and definitions about killing others go astray sometimes.
2
I support a ban on the death penalty in large part because of the number of errors made in convicting people.
At the same time, I find the current methods of execution appalling due to the pain they inflict and the uncertainty.
Until the death penalty is abolished, surely death by firing squad is faster, cheaper and more effective. And more consistent with our national mentality.
(Some sarcasm has been sprinkled above).
2
There are a lot of snarky comments on this board and I find it quite disrespectful as a Catholic. I happen to agree with Pope Francis and appreciate his courage in speaking out against the death penalty. I would think the liberal New York Times readers would applaud this decision.
He is speaking about the death penalty and yet the anti Catholics are discussing topics that are not relevant to this article. There are over 1.3 billion Catholics around the world today for a very good reason. They find the Church relevant and important to their every day living. It only seems to continue to grow in numbers.
9
@WPLMMT That does not mean the majority of non-Catholics have to support him or your church. I for one do not agree with their pathetic stand on abortion, or anything else related to women. The Catholic hierarchy are as antiquated as the Muslim Mullahs who also denigrate women or lead their followers, male of course, to do so. And the Jewish ultra-orthodox practices are not much better. In other words, traditional or fanatical in the history of religion has not been a positive.
2
@WPLMMT I find it disrespectful as a human to be told I deserver to suffer for all eternity because I didn't buy into some old book.
2
Pope Francis' action is the logical conclusion of the preparatory work done by his predecessors John Paul II and Benedict XVI. No Roman Catholic can henceforth claim to be pro-life and at the same time pro-death penalty: one ceases to be a Roman Catholic in doing so. The teaching of the Church now is clear: Pro-life in all cases at all times and in all circumstances. This will be hard to swallow for some American Catholics like Mr. McCloskey (who is a priest now at odds with the Holy father). They should not be surprised, as Pope Francis made this position very clear in his speech before Congress during his visit to the US. The death penalty is the behavior of a legislation and justice system which maintains revenge and retribution as its guiding principles. Severe crime, even murder, will not be solved or closed by state and law sanctioned murder. In addition: Pope Francis, in announcing this doctrine, makes clear that the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church does indeed evolve and is not a set of rules set in stone for all eternity. That, of course, will deeply upset those who place their faith and identity exclusively in their nomodoctrinophilia. They now receive the papal invitation to meditate on Divine Mercy as the Source of Justice, which is quite different from the revenge and retribution which is considered "justice" by those who keep supporting the death penalty.
5
Funny, how some posters here, who are pro life, will also take revenge and support capital punishment. If killing unborn babies is murder, so is executing someone for a capital crime. Both are mortal sins. You cannot be a cafeteria Christian, hence the commandment "Thou shall not kill".
The Pope is correct stating the death penalty is inadmissible in all cases. Pope Francis has been very consistent, and pragmatic, during his reign. He has shaken the conservative foundations of the Catholic church; which needed shaking up. Even the conservatives mentioned, have this medieval idea, that when one is executed, their soul can be saved by the pain, of execution, they will endure. Think of Joan of Arc, as an example.
Life is life, from the point of conception, until death. Murder is murder, be it abortion, being slayed by someone, or being executed. Again, this what it is meant by "thou shall not kill". And, when Christ said, stopping a stoning of an accused adulteress, "Those who are without sin; cast the first stone".
Finally, before pro choice people go wild; this post was meant to illustrate that life is a precious gift, from God. And, that taking life is a sin. Nothing more; nothing less. What one does with their own body is done with their own conscience.
13
Nick Metrowsky thank you for what may be the most beautifully written expression of a consistent philosophy of life this reader has ever seen.
And while i do not share your categorical rejection of all abortion at any point in any pregnancy, what you say in your last sentence is, regardless, undeniably true and perfectly articulated.
1
the Catholic pontiff has every right to change doctrine if it aligns with church teaching on a vote principle, as this change does.
this applies to Catholics if course, who as always have free will to comply or not as with other teachings and provided they don't try to impose it on all of
Americans per the First Amendment .separation clause.
the teaching that holds all life sacred from conception to death is better defined. No death penalty holds out the potential for redemption of even those who take another life--the essence of God's mercy
we don't have to like it or accept it in secular law--this is a theological teaching.
6
Perhaps no one has a right to want the death penalty for another human being but I for one who was born Catholic and now just listen to my own heart and conscience will guide my choice if one of my family members becomes a victim. If I could be sure that a life sentence meant solitary confinement with no college courses, computers, exercise rooms and no more contact with their own families maybe then I would buy the death penalty ban. The victims lost have rights and the living are left to defend and remember their lives.
6
@mnc Interesting. As the niece of someone who was murdered, no one in the family wanted to see the man executed.
The State of Michigan abolished the death penalty within a decade of its entrance to the Union. The last person to be executed was almost two decades before, several years later another man confessed to the murder. That began the push, by religious leaders, to ban the punishment.
Being sentenced to life without possibility of parole, even with access to all you think should be disallowed, is a sentence that many think is worse than execution. But probably the most important reason not to execute is it leaves no time for remorse and redemption.
1
If you think that prisons are such wonderful places, I suggest you visit one sometime.
Imagine living in a place for the rest of your live where social order is upended and violent sociopaths rule and where at any time you may be sexually assaulted or otherwise attacked and no one will do anything about it.
@mnc This position differs from revenge in what way?
1
Excellent. Positive Progress.
Now we need to add sentences without the possibility of parole as being immoral --or "inadmissible " -- as they stem redemption, the providence of God.
And the wholesale unfairness of the system where the poor plead and equality only exists in building carvings and law school lectures.
6
While it is so true that the system is rigged against the poor and in favor of the privileged, life sentences without possibility of parole may in some instances truly be necessary. There do in fact exist individuals who can never safely be released from prison into open society. In those instances the redemption (remember. It is God's redemption of their soul) can still occur, after their body's earthly existence is over.
Meanwhile we need to work to end the unconscionable system of privilege and power that still exists in this country of ours.
2
The world's largest criminal organization -- a group that not only includes dozens of pedophiles, but goes to great lengths to shelter them from law enforcement -- comes out against the death penalty.
I'll bet smaller criminal organizations like MS-13 are also against the death penalty.
10
I'm neither adamantly opposed to, nor strongly in favor of the death penalty, but as a point of order I find it odd that the Pope doesn't believe in the death penalty for serial killers, but thinks its perfectly acceptable that someone suffer eternal torment for not accepting Jesus Christ.
10
@Thad - The pope does not believe that. You are confusing Catholicism with certain evangelical strains of Christianity.
4
Not to mention eternal damnation for knowingly eating meat on Friday and missing mass on Sunday. As a person abused three times by Catholic clergy, I think they should be damned.
@Thad
I'm afraid you have it wrong. Even 50+ years ago, in Catholic school, we were taught that we have no way of knowing if anyone has been sent to Hell, because we do not know the mind of God. We were not taught that Heaven was only for Christians, because that would exclude everyone born before Jesus's birth and all good people who are living lives of good. That would leave out an extraordinary number of people who may be deserving of Heaven than a Christian who treats people like vermin.
5
According to Amnesty International, despite more countries abolishing the death penalty, its practice remains commonplace in China, Iran, North Korea, Yemen, Pakistan and the United States.
In Europe, Canada and Australia and over 140 countries worldwide the death penalty for peacetime crimes has been abolished.
Seems like most states in the U.S. are more in sync with our adversaries' policies on execution than with those of the overwhelming majority of our allies. The Holy See now joins them in solidarity and for the advocacy of human rights worldwide. Grazie Papa Francisco.
8
Thank you for a comment that recognizes that what is acceptable in peacetime is not in times of war.
Would war encompass acts of terrorism, I wonder.
@Helen
"the death penalty for peacetime crimes"
---but as (immoral) war is always on the horizon, we receive the right to execute poor 18 years who refuse to slaughter other 18 year-olds. The Pope gave his blessing to Catholic WWII Wehrmacht soldiers. In war we dispense with morality, conscience, human rights? Or is the timid 18 yearold forced to the front at gunpoint a criminal by default--and not murdered--according to the "non-peacetime" code of non-evil? What sort morality is it that can be packed and unpacked as the wind blows. Yet the Pope would agree that war has its own morality. And the Pope does not extend his anti-kill message to his own mercenary army: the Swiss guards--who, because he is their commander in chief, stand ready to kill on his behest. Their high-powered assault weapons are not for show.
Ridiculous. However there should be a higher standard for death, so no innocent people are condemned to death in error. Taxpayers shouldn't be paying for a lifetime upkeep. we just don't have the room or resources.
I can't believe people still make this argument... Not only is it actually more expensive to carry out a death sentence than to put someone in prison, it is also the height of disregard for human life to argue that anybody should be killed to save costs.
2
@Lessi Unfortunately many Americans think they can put a dollar amount on human life. Ever notice how tax dollars are always "hard earned?" If you're pounding rocks all day, yes, it's hard earned. If you're sitting at a desk all day, they're not.
Lots of people praising him for this, but I'm not really impressed. It's too easy. It's like saying "Racism is bad!" I would be more impressed if he said something really controversial and groundbreaking, like admitting that abstinence was/is a terrible idea for Africa, and that condoms plus general sex education are better.
7
Have we forgotten an eye for an eye?
@TomMoretz
Or if he'd turn over the scores of Pedophiles who hide behind their "religion".
3
@Edward Little I wish we would. Jesus's teachings negated that and many other ridiculous Old Testament precepts.
I’m sorry, but after reading this week climate change piece, I can’t help but ask with a straight face how the pope still has the courage to put that getup on each morning and stand out on that balcony, let alone tell me what’s right and wrong. It’s like watching a fireman trying to douse the flames of Northern California with a garden hose.
2
Frankie Say the death penalty 'is “an attack” on the “dignity of the person”'. But murder, rape, and other capital-level crimes aren't?
5
@Charles Of course those crimes are attacks on the dignity of the person. For precisely the same reason those are considered crimes the Pope has said that the death penalty is wrong: Namely that they inflict evil. We don't get a free pass for evil just because evil has happened to us.
3
@GoSantaClara
Our Constitution says that one can be "deprived of life" after due process. Are you suggesting we put the pronouncements of a religious official over our nation's supreme law? Or is separation of church and state only convenient when it doesn't coddle criminals?
This is the same church that, with great relish, tortured so many to death? Were popes "infallible" back then too?
4
@Bodger Actually, no. That doctrine came fairly late in the game.
1
@Bodger
The Spanish Inquisition was an outlier. The Inquisition mandate left it up to local authorities on how to proceed.
As for infallibility; that was formally defined in the mid-19th century and was last used in 1950. And infallibility does not mean what many think it means. It is only used in matters of dogma. It is not used for teachings.
3
I believe I’m correct in saying that more people have been killed in the name of Jesus Christ than for any other reason, with the Catholic Church being the biggest culprit, the Crusades comes to mind as do the horrors of the Middle Ages.
1
Alas, there was no Pope who said anything like this in the days of witch trials.
What Pope Francis should do next is allow gay marriage and permit priests to marry either men or women. This would lower the number of child-abuse cases.
6
@George Jochnowitz
Good god, men, whether gay or straight, do not molest children because they don't have sanctioned adult sexual relationships. Celibacy need not be a requirement for religious life, but it does not cause child abuse.
1
The quotation attributed to conservative Catholic Rev. C. John McCloskey III takes me back to one of the most inflammatory - and debated - lines to emerge from Vietnam.
After the battle of Ben Tre, it was reported that an American officer said it was necessary ``to destroy the village (actually it was a large city) in order to save it.''
Now this comment from the Reverend: ``Perhaps many people have been saved in this way by the death penalty.''
Yes, Reverend, thousands and thousands.
4
This is unlikely to make any significant difference to what is happening around the world with death penalty.When horrendous violence is so common and murder by other means is routine,judicial killing does not shock many people .
The death penalty requires absolute perfection to avoid ever executing an innocent person, and no justice system is capable of such perfection.
Seems like it's taken the Church quite a while to figure that out, but better late than never.
8
I do believe in God and His word in the bible to be true. The death penalty was instituted by God. If a person takes the life of another person(s) then they forfeit their own life. God's law, not mine. I also have a problem with the adjudication process where a gungho prosecutor wanting to make a name for him/her self will do anything to get a conviction. The problem is not with the law, it is with dishonest prosecutors. Judges also play a part in this by instructing jurors to consider the law only, when each case is different. A jury has more power then the judge. They can actually nullify laws by their verdict. Judges will not tell jurors this.
2
@allen blaineYou're correct if you're a Jew, incorrect if you're a Christian. Perhaps you didn't notice, but Jesus Christ stated that many of the laws given to the Jews accommodated human weakness but that he was proclaiming a different and higher standard for many behaviors (such as divorce and retribution).
1
Let the cries of heresy begin. .. Two of my great passions are following US Politics and following Catholic Church Politics... The Pope has been saying for some time, and he has re-iterated today, that care for the poor, for migrants, for immigrants, is equally as important as opposition to abortion. As he has said this, conservative 'Catholic' voices, such as the Acton Institute, have put out the message that the Pope's teaching is the stuff of heresy. These web sites make Francis out to be the anti-Pope; somehow trying to instruct their followers that their position is in some way equivalent to the teaching of the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Therein lies the nexus of Church politics and the GOP. The Acton Institute (and probably many others) are wholly owned subsidiaries of the GOP. The Institute is funded primarily by DeVos PAC money. The DeVos PAC is directed by Jim Bopp, vice-chairman of the Republican Party and chief architect of Citizen's United.
The abortion issue has been a reliable wedge issue for Republicans since the '80's. As long as a politician can utter the words 'I am pro-life' they can sit back and watch the Church- from the pulpit, from the cathedra- do their work for them. (I love the Church, and I hope for all the world that the official Church has been an unwitting participant).
2
I am a pro life Catholic and this makes perfect sense to me. We must protect life in the womb and those of the living. Abortion and the death penalty robs one of the beautiful gift of life and are evil. Pope Francis is correct in strongly supporting both and is right in speaking out against these justices. The human person has dignity.
5
@WPLMMT
When has the pope ever really done anything about abortion? He still allows pro life politicians to receive communion.
Correction: it should read INJUSTICES in the next to last sentence and the very last word. Sorry for the error.
Well now. "Conservative" Roman Catholics need now to decide if they're conservative in political terms or in terms of Church teaching. Political "conservatives" will keep supporting the now-un-Catholic idea of the state retaining the power to kill people. Traditional conservatives, who place Church before State, will follow Church doctrine. Those who side with Church over State will now be in the interesting position of fighting both capital punishment and abortion. On the other hand, those political "conservatives" who believe capital punishment trumps Church doctrine will move further away from the Church and further into the Bosom of the Trump/Gingrich/Fox News/ ideology-free GOP. I guess the bright side for them is that if you ignore this element of the Catechism you don't feel so bad that you've already ignored the rest of it. How they will reconcile opposing abortion and supporting capital punishment will be interesting, but heck these people already support Donald Trump so they've already demonstrated moral flexibility.
8
As a recovering Catholic, the actions and words of this pope continue to give me pause. Thank you Pope Francis.
11
Very nice. It's interesting, though, that the two arguments attributed to Francis in 2015, viz. those citing wrongful convictions and botched executions, don't in and of themselves bear on the morality of the death penalty. If wrongful convictions and botched executions did not occur (however unlikely this would ever be), the death penalty would still be morally permissible.
All that's required is the claim that death penalty violates human dignity, along with the claim that any action that violates human dignity is morally impermissible.
As for McCloskey's defense of capital punishment ... *sigh*
1
I cannot disagree with the Pope, or Cardinal Bernardin's 1983 Gannon Lecture on "A Consistent Ethic of Life." It is a lofty goal for mankind—just, fair, kind, compassionate; a north star for humanity. Every person should read Bernardin in school, regardless of political stance.
The Catholic Church's stance on the sanctity of life is to be applauded.
On the other hand, we live in a society where church and state are separated for good reason. The US Constitution provides us all our individual right to worship freely; however, it also free's us—an imperfect society—from the strict teachings and interpretations of any one religion. Imperfect laws do exist that oppose the Pope's stance, but actually reduce overall suffering and injustice in our world.
We have come far as a society, we share so many aspirations. Yet, we often refuse to work together to obtain shared goals because of ideological beliefs.
The majority of Americans would agree: To limit the frequency of abortion. To limit poverty. To limit the death penalty. To lift up, educate, care for, and find value in all lives.
But remember that MLK Jr. said we have to have true Hope, not blind optimism, for a better day. True hope means working toward to a more perfect existence, in our community. Optimism is blind faith that chance will bring a better day. Yet, we know that tomorrow is not always better, and hard work often leads to advancement. Let's praise the Pope, but work in the world as it is today, together.
5
I completely agree with the pontiff here.
And I have two more points.
1) the death penalty does not accomplish anything that life without parole could accomplish.
2) it should never be purpose or duty of a state to kill any of its citizens ever.
10
CJ--It's also more expensive, as convicts pursue their appeals, for years on end, at taxpayer expense, and cause further pain for the victim's family, and friends. State sponsored murder is beneath us. It's nothing, but moronic revenge.
1
With each passing day, the more I like this Pope. May he be protected from the conservative junta.
Except in defense of one's own life, there is no reason to take the life of another human being, or any being for that matter.
This position has implications for nations on the matter of war and peace.
7
Unfortunately, this ignores the problem of keeping other inmates and staff safe from those with nothing to lose. If solitary confinement is the only alternative then we are confronted with the problem of cruel and unusual treatment or even torture. I believe a very good case can be made in some circumstances that the death penalty is more humane, especially if it is the prisoner's choice.
3
perhaps we should be looking at our entire dysfunctional criminal justice system rather than trying to justify an abhorrent practice. there are all kinds of ways of protecting people without killing anyone.
1
Capital punishment, whether by a single person or by committee, is equally abhorrent and amoral. No one should assume the authority for killing another person.
In the US, we kill the innocent often. Now, we use amoral cocktails to do it with. The death penalty needs to be abolished.
---
www.rimaregas.com
10
Thank you, Pope Francis. A "No death penalty stance" takes the risk out of humans and a judicial system being wrong.
However, readers responses on expanding this to personal choices on life's potential seem a different issue -- Self-defense, war, pregnancy termination, and end of life. I have Alzheimers, believe in a soul and the possibility of an afterlife. I intend on ending my own life just before my brain makes me equivalent a few co-joined cells that can move. God will understand my choice.
Also, please require all religious who live on donations from their parishioners to live in housing equal to the bottom 25% of the world. Re-invest the profits from the sale of religious property to the poor. Take on the mantle of St. Francis, not the Pontiffs. God Bless.
8
I'm personally opposed to the death penalty but don't want to impose my religious beliefs on anybody, so if the state wants to execute criminals, I'm not going to step in and interfere
1
@Alter und Weiser
Do you keep your opinions to yourself on all matters of public policy, or only those in which the opinion is predicated on a religious tenet? If the latter, why? A policy that is good for the community is good for the community and should be openly advocated without respect to the nature, be it religious or not, origins in your particular thinking.
3
Since it's name sake and many of the church's founders were executed by the state I am surprised it took so long to find execution inadmissible.
8
So this means that conservative Catholics who accept the death penalty are as much cafeteria Catholics as liberal Catholics who accept birth control?
28
Yes. They always have been in my opinion when they vote for candidates who want to cut help for the poor.
2
Reality check eye for an eye,only thing people understand. Maybe in the 24 th century when the federation of earth we can live in peace . Moment we need better jails some wheres like on mars where life would be unberable with no return or parole.
don't need better jails, need a better criminal justice system. ours does not work. take a look at Norway. their system does.
1
The prison systems in the U.S. and around the world do not usually reflect individual dignity either. Instead of creating environments that make people more violent, prisons should be treated as rehabilitation centers.
Asia's formerly most violent prison (Tihar prison in India) was, according to its then-directory, turned into a virtual ashram based on several programs, and mainly on programs by the Art of Living Foundation and its partner organization, the International Association for Human Values. Because of the dramatic results, separate facilities were created for people who had taken the Art of Living breathing and life skills programs.
In Los Angeles County's Violence Alternative Program for violent juveniles, the director postponed his retirement because he said it was the only program he saw that had any impact on that population, and he had wanted to help it succeed.
http://www.prisonsmart.org/
6
Good. Now declare crime as being inadmissible under all circumstances. Then follow that up with molestation being inadmissible in the Church. Next up - LGBT hatred being inadmissible in religious institutions.
Don't just say the easy and popular things. You are not a politician up for re-election.
2
So now how will the Church look back upon the generations of popes and church leaders who actively encouraged the heinous tortures and murders of infidels and political opponents?
6
How about the Pope declares that from now on, priests may marry, and they will accept married men as priests.
How about we hear that! It's time.
7
The Church only has a respect for life if it serves its purpose. Does a Church that for centuries covered up sexual predation by its priests have a respect for life? Did Pius XII have respect for life when he supported the Nazis and the Holocaust in WWII?
How does the Church feel about families being ripped apart by the Trump administration, and about migrant children being fed psychotropic drugs by that same administration? How does the Church feel about the Catholic majority on the Supreme Court who, with the exception of one Justice, has voted consistently to support a conservative agenda that is anti-labor, anti-voting rights, anti-human rights, anti-immigration? How does the Church feel about the new Catholic SCOTUS nominee, Brett Kavanaugh who has a dangerous track record of protecting the privileges of the wealthy and powerful at the expense of working people?
How does the Church respect life when it demands subjugation from half of humanity – females?
The only thing the Church respects is hypocrisy. It is no small irony that the Church is able to condemn the death penalty and at the same time worship a gruesome death in the crucifixion and make it the centerpiece of their ritual, iconography, and belief system.
Respect for life? The Church is obsessed with death.
5
Yes! I heard a local NPR show where contributors were seriously discussing the cost/benefit analysis of capital punishment. If our moral backbone has to be inspired by the Pontiff, so what? It’s like Angela Merkel showing us how to address the moral implications of the refugee problem started by and large by American military adventurism. Someone needs to lead the way and show we’ve moved on from the Old Testament.
5
What about the Ten Commandments? Don't they count anymore? If you are a church goer I would think those rules would cover the prohibition of the death penalty.
2
How many thousands did Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi brutally slaughter after he was released from jail instead of being executed? The US has murderers released from jail who in a few months have killed a few more individuals, usually female.
The death penalty is barbaric. Period. End of discussion.
13
Pope Francis makes an important point about the so-called criminal justice system when he says capital punishment “does not render justice to the victims, but rather fosters vengeance.”
Seems to me that so much that passes for "justice" in our courts is really about vengeance, an attempt to get even by inflicting punishment. Vengeance makes our criminal justice system very expensive and does little, if anything, to set things aright/correction--which justice should be about--for both those that suffer injury and those that inflict injury on others.
9
I wonder if this declaration will have any effect on the 5 "conservative" Catholics on the Supreme Court.
13
Where does this leave the conservatives who were claiming that the Catholic Church as on their side as a conservative body? Why do people forget that fundamentally Christ and Christianity are liberal at their heart?
That the Pope didn't use the Old Testament to justify the death penalty (when he easily could have) should call into question all the arguments that so-called Christians use to hurt people based on Old Testament scripture.
9
The Vatican does need to make clear the authority level of this decree. I read the various articles and it seems it wants to convey the Pope’s intent without pulling the nuclear trigger, infallibility. A Pontiff’s decree has to be ex cathedra to be considered infallible. Two little words inserted into the message is all it takes. Vatican cannot simply make a statement about fine tuning the Catechism. Otherwise it is simply guidance on living a better life. He has the authority to pull that trigger and should if it is his intent. It will not have much impact if he does not.
1
I am not a Catholic and remain a committed to the peculiarities of Anglican Protestantism, but in making this declaration the Pope reinforces the moral leadership of the Holy See.
It can never be right to allow murder to proceed, howsoever implemented and howsoever "authorised" by necessarily transient temporal authority.
The moral stain of capital punishment must surely be brought to an end in all civilised states.
16
The Pope is like any other attention-seeking politician: he bends centuries of tradition and wisdom in order to enhance his populist legacy regardless of perpetuate the degenerative societal consequences. 1.2 billion fools, not to mention the other billions enraptured by other spiritual cults.
2
Ok, now that we have a thought on capital punishment and as always - abortion- because of course, all life is scared. What about unjust wars, or any war for that matter. How about genocide in African countries or elsewhere on the planet- yes, even Muslim countries, Palestine perhaps. Are those lives sacred too or are we limited to the unborn and criminals?
7
I am unsympathetic to the idea that a serial murderer or those who commit the most heinous crimes deserve to "turn a new leaf". They certainly didn't care about the humanity of their victims, so why should we spare them the fate that the subjected others to?
5
@Texas1836
Because we're supposed to be better than the most heinous amongst us.
4
@Julie
A clinically executed euthanasia after years of state provided appeals is certainly not as heinous as murder in cold blood.
The Pope is absolutely correct. State-sponsored premeditated murder is wrong, no matter what anyone thinks of the victim. The state should not be in the business of murdering its own.
16
People that think or say that life is sacred, put their heads into the hornet's nest of abortion and euthanasia. Realize that life is, in some circumstances or at some moments, not worth living. Try to envision an unwanted baby or a dying person. Death penalty should be abolished, for example because mistakes are made. I would like to add that, certainly, but not only, in your country, I read some books about it, putting people in prison is worse than a death penalty. That is a thing that you should do something about, too!
3
One thing's for sure:the Pope and his close relatives have never been the victims of violent crime. He's preaching form his ivory tower. The views of a religious leader are not relevant to a secular society; or at least they should not be.
5
No person should be put to death at the hand of another, for whatever reason or circumstance. (especially by the state)
It is a good first step by the church, but it has a very long way to go still to recognize a whole host of other human rights.
17
@FunkyIrishman what about the human rights of the victim who was murdered by the prisoner? The victim's rights to life were taken away without regard, so why should society should respect the sanctity of the criminal's own rights? An example being: I doubt anyone truly thinks someone like Timothy McVeigh could atone for his crimes and be reintroduced to society. If he is to die in prison, then there was no reason to keep him locked in a box for 40+ more years.
2
@T1836
All of the victims should have sympathy directed towards them, however taking away someone's rights does not bring back another's - 2 wrongs do not make a right.
We as a society, must not be as barbaric as the offenders, otherwise we are but a mob.
No thanks.
Thank heaven for Pope Francis' leadership. It's a frightening failure for a government to deal with crime by killing the perpetrator. The death penalty in the US is strictly about vengeance b/c it's been proven many times over not to be a deterrent. I hope to see the day when it is abolished in this country.
13
Tricky to be absolutely right today. How can we practice psalm One that also is this definitive and not stimulate opposition that causes more violence than compassion?
We created a system to deal with the fact that anyone that takes another's life has no way of repaying their debt to the society they live in so they are sent on to stand before the supreme judgement of God. In our country of innocence until proven guilty we have executed a few that were innocent, but In any other country where their laws allow for arrests based on guilty until proven innocent the death sentence is far more mistaken.
1
@Robert Zitelli. To say, in this discussion, that life is sacred, is very much beside the point. This will only be picked up by religious fanaticals that oppose abortion and euthanasia. The point is that we want to be respectful towards other people, even if they have done awful things.
2
A little bit of a shift from when I attended Catholic school in The Bronx in the 1970s and a priest came around to my 5th grade class to advocate in favor of the death penalty. So they were not above trying to indoctrinate at a young age on issues that most people of that age are a little young to fully comprehend. Interestingly and somewhat inconsistently, I also remember the the same priest condmning the movie Death Wish (which I hadn't seen at that point - of course it immediately put it on my "must see" list after that).
5
The attention today will be on the Pope, but it is good for a moment to celebrate the thousands of citizens who have made the case over the years--attorneys; prison personnel; families of victims as well as of the condemned; journalists, and spiritual advisors--people like Sister Helen Prejean, who witnessed up close what execution does to a society and refused to say it is ok.
Thanks to them, when the Pope turned his attention to the question, he could seek counsel not only in prayer but also in voluminous evidence. We are in their debt.
27
Yes, let's now see if the sitting Catholic justices on the Supreme Court follow the lead of Pope Francis.
83
@Steve43 Hasn't this been the prime reason not to vote for Catholic politicians -- that they would be taking their orders directly from the Pope?
It's always been amazing to me that when Popes have opposed the death penalty, conservative Catholics say its just a matter of their opinions and not church doctrine yet when they make the same statements about abortion that is doctrine.
I have met very few Catholics who oppose abortion who also oppose the death penalty. Oh well, I guess religions aren't supposed to make sense anyway.
46
"Pope Francis has declared the death penalty inadmissible in all cases “because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person,” the Vatican announced on Thursday, in a shift in Roman Catholic teaching on the issue."
I would have thought all the Pope needed to do was cite the 6th Commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" as justification for the abolishment of the death penalty.
44
@Marge Keller,
The likelihood is that the pope does know what it says, which is, in Hebrew, "Lo Tir-tzakh" and properly translated into in English is better read as, "Don't Murder". You have been reading a bad translation all these years. All murders are killings, but not the other way around.
By the way, I, too, am against the death penalty for a number of reasons, one of which is that it is state sponsored murder.
5
@Billy Baynew
Thanks for the clarification Mr. Baynew. The only translation I have ever known is what was taught in Catholic grade school, high school and college. Thanks again for your input.
hard to think God allows mistranslations of the Word. Or is this another one of her jokes?
1
Many problems remain, in the church and out.
But this is just right.
Thanks, Pope.
More please.
89
It's also time to redefine what 'life in prison' means.
6
Some here say that this has something to do with the church's respect for life, for the sanctity of life. That could be a problem, because this credo of the sanctity of life also has consequenties for how to act with unborn children with no chance of a worthy life, or for the very old that should and must be kept alive, even if they don't want that.
10
I have long opposed the death penalty, but Trump made me change my mind.
His constant attacks on children's lives, encouraging the spread of poisons dangerous to kids and his desire to remove food for children and destroy their healthcare, destroy education - well death maybe too kind for him.
27
It is disheartening that today, after more than 2000 years of steady advances in the arts and sciences -- and, presumably, man's power to reason -- there are still people who believe that there's such things as gods. And, worse, people who appear to convince themselves that they know what these things think.
13
Next -- universal women's rights including abortion! Go, Frankie!!
5
Given that the Pope's argument was based on the idea that all human's (criminals, innocents, anyone) have an inalienable and inviolable right to life there is no way that he would somehow change the Church's stance on abortion since it's based on the exact same principle.
2
Yes - and while we are at it, maybe we should ban religion as well since it is the most disruptive force on the planet today.
33
@Buck Brown Don't blame religion for the actions of man. As for you, you're free not to participate.
2
Makes the Catechism consistent.
10
As an Orthodox Christian, we even do not support the death penalty. So, this is a big step in the right direction but we’ve got a long way to go especially if we want to ever see unification of the Catholics and Orthodox again. Two words: Keep praying.
13
I once had a friend who believed abortion to be murder, and not a woman's right (nor the right of the man who impregnated her), but she was very supportive of capital punishment. I never could understand her thinking on that - she was a good friend, I really tried.
I'm glad to see an influential person such as Pope Francis take this stand. Both abortion and capital punishment are multi-faceted issues - we need to think long and hard. Too often we allow ourselves to jump to the defense of the tiny little potential baby, and to the throats of those who commit capital offenses, usually without much rational thought - sort of an emotional leap - good vs. bad. Maybe this news will stir some thinking.
17
Good for the pope on this issue but personally I maintain it's better to come to decisions not based upon dogma and teaching from authority but through evidence, reason, and open discussion.
8
@M. Hogan The Pope is a Jesuit and therefore places considerable weight on "evidence, reason, and open discussion." Many lay Jesuits have or hold leading positions in science and philosophy.
13
@Peter Wright The pope is a Catholic and places primary emphasis on Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium, and revelation. Evidence, reason and open discussion are secondary to these primary concerns.
That said I hold the same position but for different reasons.
Wait! Has he checked with his boss about this? Just read the Old Testament, you know, the actual word of God (so we are endlessly told). God threw the death penalty around like slaps on the hand. Working on the Sabbath, women who weren't virgins on their wedding night, entire cities who preached a different religion, not to mention countless examples of human sacrifice. Such hypocrisy.
Want to make a dent in the support for the death penalty? Publish how much it costs the state to spend 15-20 years of lawyer fees for legal appeals to finally do the deed. Give half that amount to the family of the victims.
7
@Dennis Karasek
Got the virgin thing wrong.
Men could have sex with girls at young ages. The only laws were applied to men could not have sex with women who were married to other men. It was a property thing.
That was why men could have those big concubines.
9
Perhaps all those things you mention were God's equivalent of Trump's twitters: things that no rational person would take seriously.
6
The Pontiff should try again. Seeking to abolish the death penalty is an old cause and will do nothing to divert attention from his church's sex scandal's.
7
An Italian pontiff says something and the rest of the world is supposed to care? What is it with these megalomaniacs.
7
@Season smith
The pope is not Italian. He is from Argentina
20
@Season smith
The Pope isn't Italian, he's an Argentine. Vatican City isn't part of Italy either, it's a separate state.
2
His parents were Italian immigrants to Argentina.
It's about time someone took the Sermon on the Mount seriously. Bravo!
20
This is leadership, Christian leadership. No supreme being worthy of the name would condone capital punishment. No Christian nation should under any circumstance.
23
I don't know about "Christian" nations, but how about ours?
7
Thank you for clarifying. We are not a Christian nation, no matter how much certain Christians want us to be. And YES, I am Christian!! However, I also know history and facts and actually believe them.
We are a nation of laws. We have FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Which means we also have FREEDOM FROM RELIGION. So no, we are not a Christian nation. Most of our Founding Fathers were Dieists, not Chistians. History matters.
13
Two thousand years too late.
6
One welcome step towards the church regaining its moral authority after years of mishandling sexual abuse of children and adults. Keep at it Pope Francis and continue to be bold.
12
'it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person' so said the pope regarding capital punishment.
Is not interfering with a woman's right to abort her fetus, part of her body, ALSO such and attack?
4
@cfr666 - it's an inconvenient biological truth for women that a fetus is within her body but also a separate life.
3
“Good News” this morning!
Everything in me sings: YES!
16
Where does life begin? Life begins when there is no where to go but to heaven. When does life end? When there is no heaven. Only Earth. So Pope Francis believes the death penalty is not just on Earth but perhaps our future into the unknown into the Universe. He is preparing for Jesus to return to Earth. Making sure when Jesus died on the cross that those who followed him on Earth will follow him again. Into the Universe.
Pope Francis hasn't "shifted" anything. He's returning to the theology we 70+ - ers were taught. Pro-life means pro-all-life; no abortion, no capital punishment, no war. Mitigating circumstances may rarely apply. There are some actions; ideally, women in stress should be given care and support; death sentences should be commuted to life imprisonment; war should be avoided through any means at hand.
7
@Emma Horton
Sorry abortion is not in the Bible except instructions on how to cause one - Once the man has decide the woman should have one - see Bitter Waters.
5
I'm not much of a "joiner" and I feel comfortable questioning "leaders" so I have mixed feelings about the death penalty. I worry that someone may not be guilty. But I also worry that someone who has committed truly heinous crimes against humanity gets to live out their lives while their victims rot and their loved ones grieve. Experts say fear of the death penalty does not deter criminals and maybe that's so - but maybe they should at least be permanently removed from the planet so there is no chance of recidivism? Can a serial killer be rehabilitated?
6
@R. Anderson
First, our prisons don't rehabilitate prisoners. They are holding pens.
People do commit heinous crimes, and when they are a danger to others - whether in control of their behaviors or not, they should be separated from society to protect others.
Opposing the death penalty is simply logical for the Pope - if every person has a soul, and is created in God's image - there is the possibility of forgiveness.
Why would the state retaliate with the very act that it is condemning? And often with methods that have become torture. Engaging in the same monstrous behavior as the criminal lowers us to his level.
The you must add to this the fact that in our own system, many people are convicted of crimes they have not committed. Legal representation is hit or miss, and mainly miss if the accused is poor. The death penalty is applied inconsistently across states - and even within states. And on a purely pragmatic note: the cost of applying the death penalty makes it a very expensive form of vengeance.
A life sentence , w/o parole, may actually be the worst punishment possible.
14
Rehab is certainly commendable but it's effectiveness is besides the point: even if rehab doesn't work in all cases, the death penalty is still an evil because it can and often does result in the execution of innocent people; if even one innocent person dies, that miscarriage of justice condemns the very concept of capital punishment, and no amount of legal review can guarantee such miscarriages can neveroccur. Furthermore, the question concerning 'botched' executions remains: in fact, there are no methods for executions that aren't cruel and unusual in the legal sense. Finally, Mr. Anderson implies that spending life in prison, any prison, is akin to a cakewalk: having served as a corrections officer in NJ, I must disagree with such characterization; it might be a result from a complete lack of understanding about the very nature of imprisonment. Living in a maximum security prison of concrete and bars, with the knowledge one shall never leave is the epitome of Hell on Earth, but I suppose one must actually experience such Hell to comprehend it as a waking nightmare.
8
Good for the Pope. Catholic or not, religious or atheist or agnostic, everyone should oppose this barbaric punishment. We are the first economy in the world and should put an end to the death penalty.
28
There is much to criticize about Roman Catholic doctrine and practice, but the Church's respect for the sanctity of life is genuine,
unlike the myriad hypocrisies of Protestant evangelicals and other fake Christian fundamentalists who purport to oppose abortion, yet refuse food and medical care to living people, support widespread gun violence, endorse wars for any and ever reason, and evidently relish executions of helpless prisoners.
32
Nice guy, the pope, but I don’t want him or any religious leader dictating the content of our laws. The Catholic Church has done a lot of damage in this country by supporting rabid right wing Republicans. Churches and other religious entities need to stay of politics and start paying taxes!
10
Vengeance in the form of the death penalty, despite widespread belief to the contrary, does not soothe, does nothing to right wrongs, and, most certainly does not put life back into the dead.
That said, the Bible is hardly a supportive text when one argues for the abolition of the death penalty, as replete as it is with instructions to exercise just such retribution for the most insignificant of offenses, in direct contradiction of Commandment #V.
7
Now all he needs to do is to compel the US Conference of Bishops, which tried to withhold communion from prochoice politicians, to withhold communion from politicians who support the death penalty.
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“Abolishing the death penalty has clearly been one of Francis’ top priorities for many years, along with saving the environment and caring for immigrants and refugees. “
I’m a Unitarian and I can sign on to this.
31
It's very simple. We make mistakes. How many innocent people are you willing to execute in order to satisfy the blood lust of some? Go look at the innocence project.
21
The pope would better spend his time dealing with the continuing abuse of children by the catholic clergy. He continues to condone it.
11
Good now mandate that this edict be read in every church for the foreseeable future.
My catholic friends are some of the biggest supporters of the death penalty.
My non believer/deist friends are the least supporters of it.
24
I've read some statements that compare revoking the death penalty to pro-choice . As a Roman Catholic I understand the call of pro life, as a personal decision. However, as similar as you may think they are- they are very different. No one person has the right to tell another person what they should do with their body. It is not your place nor mine, the decision is between them and their creator. No man is a God and therefore has no ruling power over another human's body.
29
Evidently those of us who consider human life as sacred - since we're "God's children - that the Pope will now have the courage and offer an honest apology for the thousands of victims of the Inquisition and the hundreds who had been burnt at the stake, including Joan of Arc.
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@Adalbert Lallier There have been apologies. Pope John Paul II made many apologies. During his long reign as Pope, he apologized to Jews, Galileo, women, people convicted by the Inquisition, Muslims killed by the Crusaders and almost everyone who had allegedly suffered at the hands of the Catholic Church over the years.
List of apologies made by Pope John Paul II - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II
8
Well, it's about time. Capital punishment is a violation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights and only perpetuates the cycle of violence.
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@Joachim Kübler
The UN is as useless as is the church.
1
Since the pope has now demonstrated his openness to revising the Catechism, there are several more sections that could stand editing. Strike the statement that gay people are "objectively disordered" (truly contemptible in light of recent revelations), allow married priests, and open the priesthood to women.
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@Glen
Yep yep yep.
@Glen They also might consider losing that ridiculous fantasy about souls, immortality, and a spiritual world and its denizens. Good grief, who believes that anymore?
@Glen Respectfully, the CCC does not state that gay people are "objectively disordered." It states that homosexual acts--not same-sex attraction or persons committing the act--are "intrinsically disordered." In light of its other core teachings regarding natural law, the human body, and marriage this teaching will probably stay put.
The Pope's change of the CCC on the death penalty is only symbolic. Given the resources of duly elected governments today, the Church has long taught that there is no need to impose the death penalty to protect society. Imprisoning the person who commits a capital crime and is not amenable to rehabilitation is sufficient to protect society.
When it comes to theology, words and context mean a lot. Thank you.
I fear this will increase violence in prisons and put the lives of prisoners, corrections officers and other prison workers at risk.
1
@Kevin Why would this increase violence? Capital punishment does not deter crime, nor does it make prisons safe places. As other countries who do not have capital punishment show, the purpose of prison is to "correct" and rehabilitate. Anyway, this is about the teachings of Jesus Christ. You don't have to agree, but the Pope is acting as Pope. Americans most likely will not change their approach.
8
@Kevin please go to the Death Penalty Information Center website for statistics that compare death and non-death penalty states. You will see that your fears are unfounded.
13
@Elena Jose No, prisons' raisons d'être are not to correct and rehabilitate. The primary purpose of prison is to punish --because time is the only thing we really possess). The secondary purposes of imprisoning law-breakers,(correction/rehabilitation, theoretical deterrence, and public safety) are executive and not the purview of justice.
There are many who oppose the death penalty, also called capital punishment, who are from various walks of life, from country and folk music, to the literary and academic realms, to spiritual and clerical leaders. Now the principal patriarch of the Christian believers has focused his condemnation of the death penalty along
with the rest of us and it is uplifting and a great support of our personal epiphanies.
I personally thank him and the rest of us for continuing this support for life among all of us regardless of bias or prejudice or justification.
26
Obviously, you're unfamiliar with Christianity as it actually exists. Pope Francis is the head of only one Christian denomination. Non Catholics do not recognize the Pope's authority as the head of Christianity.
1
No sure why you all believe that the Pope's is the Creator who has any sort of ruling as to who lives or die, capital punishment or otherwise. . . .
3
@Michael Who is talking about believing anything about the Pope? It is just a news report about the Pope's stand on capital punishment, based on his beliefs and function as the head of the Catholic Church. No one has to believe it. If one is Catholic, one will consider this. if not a catholic, one may find it of interest -- as I do -- because I agree with him. No one has to believe it or not believe it.
8
@Michael, he doesn't. That is the whole point. No person, no government has the right to life or death; that is reserved to God. So, no abortion, no capital punishment, no war.
3
Where would Christianity be today if Pontius Pilate had sentenced Jesus to life without parole?
32
@David: If you're a believer, you've been taught that Jesus' life path and his death were foreordained. He was sent to Earth to die for the salvation of all. Pilate was a mere cog in the machine.
If yours is a pro-death penalty response, I don't understand the logic.
3
So, David, you're pro-crucifixion?
Cool.
To answer your question, maybe the church would have had their greatest teacher long enough to get a few more things right.
2
@David
Exactly! What would people hang on the wall if not a crucifix?
If Jesus died an old man would there even be a christain religion?
1
I wonder which part of, “Thou shalt not kill” the Catholic Church has misunderstood all these millennia?
49
Your point is well taken, and I’m not necessarily saying that this particular commandment does not apply to institutions, but across religious canon there is often a difference between how individuals are supposed to handle injustices vs. how communities and institutions are to handle them. Even in secular societies an act committed in retaliation by an individual would be considered vigilantism or revenge, while the same act by law enforcement or the courts would be considered justified and in keeping with justice. Just some nuance to consider.
1
@Lewis Sternberg That's a mistranslation. The original says, "thou shalt not murder". Not the same thing.
2
@Lewis Sternberg That is true of all religions that preach the ten commandments and then fight endless wars. Not just the Catholic Church.
2
I guess this would be the obvious position to take if you are a criminal.
3
That is really good to know.
So does that mean the church, thoroughly infiltrated for generation after generation with vast numbers of pedophile priests and archbishops raping countless little boys (which the Vatican knew about and kept so silent about), will now take a position on that matter as well?
15
Wow! It only took TWO THOUSAND YEARS for the Church to adopt "Thou shallt not kill" as official policy! Amazing!
37
When will he declare all war immoral? Imagine the impact if US bishops could no longer support war-mongering politicians and candidates. There is no way that modern warfare can be immoral. Pope Francis, go the extra mile and rule that war is "inadmissible." (a strange term to use, but nonetheless...)
22
@farhorizons: A good thought, but war cannot be prevented through legislation. The death penalty, though, can be outlawed and stopped.
5
This goes along with the "consistent life ethic" that has its roots in the Catholic Church and has been around for decades. Glad to see it being codified. Personally, I've always opposed the death penalty partly because I don't think it should be anyone's job to be an executioner. I don't even need to go beyond that--that's enough of a reason for me.
20
Our Pope is a gift. The Catholic faith is alive and well--as relevant as ever.
22
Hopefully the US will follow the Pope's lead and abolish the death penalty (in my dreams).
That way, lives can be spared and money can be saved.
Of course, the death penalty remains, to be meted out by American gun owners, mass shooters and now, courtesy of the first amendment, guns you can print out in the comfort of your home and carry anytime, anywhere.
17
Finally a sane justification for the existence of God. If human beings or institutions are empowered to pass death sentences on other human beings then the whole idea of God becomes debatable. There certainly are evil people on this earth. However, if we wish to hold on to the pretense that there is God and that human beings are created in his/her image, then we must be willing to deny ourselves the joy of deliberatively sentencing human beings to death.
5
With the amount of pain suffering and mental anguish caused by the underage abuses caused by Cardinal McCarrick over the course of years I think the condemnation of the death penalty is just the church accepting the fact that these abuses are a part of its culture and there should be no serious penalty for those convicted of heinous crimes against some of its youngest members.
4
This is consistent with the Church's basic teaching of being pro-life from the "womb to the tomb." But as mush as I admire Pope Francis, this is not enough. I say this as a Catholic myself. There are too many areas where the Church casts a blind eye toward the needs and struggles of its flock. Birth control must be embraced and no longer shunned. Abortion in more cases, particularly when it affects the general health and life of a woman, should not be condemned. What should, however, be formally condemned is pedophilia among its priests and hierarchy. Until the Church expands its view of the overall meaning of the preservation of life and health, it is remiss.
37
@Kathy Lollock. Yes, to all of your comment. Thank you.
5
@Kathy Lollock
Birth control should not be embraced. It is one of the single greatest contributors to the moral downfall of America.
@Kathy Lollock It breaks your heart to see what lack of birth control has done in the third world. The pope can take most of the responsibility for it. I broke with the church long ago over it. I suppose after we have another billion or so people the next pope might give a new opinion.
1
The absolute ban on the death penalty is enshrined in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe. The last person to be subject to the death penalty in my country, the UK, was 1964. Given that the abolition of the death penalty is the mark of a civilised country, it is good to see that the Catholic church is eventually catching up.
215
Geof Rayns--Yes, the Catholic Church, and most others, have certainly murdered their fair share of innocent people, throughout history. Time for a change, including a woman's right to make her own choices about health care.
1
A couple questions about the meaning and impact of this new teaching:
Did the Pope declare this to be an infallible teaching? If so, does it imply that no member of the church is allowed to speak against it?
Will priests or bishops be required to deny communion to Catholic lawmakers who vote for laws that provide capital punishment? Or will this be left up to individual priests in the same way that the Pope clamped down on the bishops' power to prevent priests from giving communion to divorced and remarried Catholics?
12
@Sequel: The doctrine of papal infallibility applies "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church." It is not predicated upon a pope's declaration of infallibility. To my mind, all the requisite precepts are met in this action as the pope updated the catechism, which defines the "rules" of the faith and applies to all Catholics. I'm sure there are those who would argue that this might meet one of the requirements for exception to the doctrine, but my guess is the vast majority of those would be doing so only to justify their personal, and now by definition, non-Catholic belief that the death penalty is justifiable in certain cases.
3
@Jeff The rule I was taught in Catholic catechism class was that for a teaching to be infallible, the Pope had to declare it as such.
That would seem to imply that an infallible teaching's status is not something that one merely infers.
Or perhaps this is an area of deliberate ambiguity injected into a topic that is destined to provoke political discussion or disagreement.
Pro life is a nice statement that sounds very holy and in the footsteps of Jesus however I wish the people who like to talk about it from the Pope on down would consider that it means more than just breathing. I wish some of those banners and lawn signs would address having health care, education, food, a place to live and the ability to give yourself a future. If you look at America we promise life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness however we have forgotten about the last two.
63
I hope the Pope’s declaration on the inadmissibility of the death penalty will open the dialogue here in the U.S. on capital punishment. The argument that the death penalty is a deterrent holds no weight, as it takes so long for the punishment to be meted out due to the built-in appeals. In the meantime, the victim’s family is forced to relive the crime numerous times at each appeals hearing. An eye for an eye is not valid either, as we use so-called humane methods of execution. As a society, we need to reexamine the purpose of prison: is it merely punitive or should we try to rehabilitate someone? Is everyone worth rehabilitation? There are myriad questions and many aspects of our archaic justice system that we need to think about. Sadly, we are so mired in division right now, nothing worthwhile is being accomplished by our government.
53
"a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state"
In principle I support capital punishment as necessary to give relief to the survivors of crime victims.
In practice I don't trust our current criminal justice system to mete it out.
Pope Francis has stepped up to refocus the Church on core values like service and humility. This decision shows that he is also serious about aligning policy with the realities of today's world.
Despite its many failings, the Church has done a lot of good and continues to do so.
29
Some will say Pope Francis should have been more clear and more firm in his pro-life stand years ago. His reference to better ways to protect society explains why capital punishment has become more unusual throughout the world and in most states. Of course, waiting to be executed on death row is cruel and quite different from life in prison. Thus we have evidence of both "cruel and unusual" the constitutional test that matters.
I would like to see the U.S. Senate question Brett Kavanaugh about right to life issues. How many Democrats favor abortion and assisted suicide but oppose capital punishment? How many Republicans favor capital punishment but oppose abortion? You shouldn't have to be the Pope to finally get it right.
107
Women also have a right to life, and their lives are sometimes threatened in labor, as with the woman in Galway, in which both mother and baby died. Ireland decided to stop criminalizing it--a pro-life gesture.
2
Life is sacred at the beginning and the end.
@Eugene Patrick Devany to use the phrase "pro life" is to give yourself away as a fundamentalist fanatic. as if anyone is anti life. the right to die is pretty much enshrined in law, as no one goes to jail now in civilized nations for attempted suicide. your inalienable rights are yours to forfeit if you choose. and abortion is necessary if you are to preserve the rights of the adult female as a human being. if you disallow all abortions claming the fetus has inalienable rights even if unaviodably dependent on the mothers body for survival, then you automatially disallow the womans right to her own life. death is part of life. sometimes a fetus will die. animals die. plants die. we take their lives. the world cannot operate without death and killing. all i argue is that we must not deliberately take the lives of any creature if we dont have to.
3
In addition to the moral reasons for abandoning capital punishment, all other western countries have done away with it decades ago, with no increase in crime. Not mention the cost savings. There is no rational reason for capital punishment.
405
Except for those with life in prison without parole. Is that fair or humane? Is that not a burden on the taxpayers and prison system? Surely one execution is cheaper (could be as cheap as $0.50) than 70 years of food and shelter.
3
@Becky Depends on how you define "Western". Japan has just finished hanging a dozen terrorists. But I guess Japan isn't "Western", eh?
1
@Becky: Absolutely. Capital punishment is not a deterrent; costs of appeals are astronomical; people have been convicted and executed in error; and biases in conviction and sentencing mean that the population on death row is (hugely) disproportionately people of color. For these reasons and others it has no place in a civilized society.
8
This is a very big step in the right direction. Life is sacred. I support Pope Francis declaration and I hope that all legislators in our country will take notice.
143
@Robert zitelli
And life includes all the other inhabitants of our blue planet. It's not just human life, it's planetary life. And that means giving up our rotten notion that we are at the top of the pyramid and get to abuse the planet for our short-term, selfish, needs.
2
This is consistent with the Roman Church's long standing projection of itself as "pro-life." The Pope is right, in this day and age, nothing is really gained in terms of societal safety by putting offenders to death.
238
I wish the Pope would say something about the throw away kids and babies policy we tried to use at our borders. To really be pro life one has to honor that belief after people are born.
43
Not true at all. The death penalty is actually a very important deterrent to criminals. You wouldn’t know that because you’re probably not a crook. But the thought of public execution is very important. Keep the death penalty. It’s the law. The pope is nothing to real people.
@Anne-Marie Hislop
It cuts down the costs of incarceration, and hopefully helps clean the gene pool.
1
It's good to see at least one of our institutions come out of the dark ages, as Washington plunges further into night.
Now, if only the Pope could see that the prohibition against the use of condoms is itself a death sentence for so many in Africa and elsewhere. One thing at a time, I suppose.
505
@Sera: Interesting point. The death penalty usually affects men (more male prisoners are sentenced to death than women prisoners), whereas the prohibition against condom use IS, as you point out, a death sentence for many in Africa and other locations - and the people who die from AIDS in Africa are more likely to be WOMEN.
Thus I don't agree with taking it "one thing at a time" at all. The Pope needs to recognize publicly that WOMEN'S lives are as valuable as men's lives, and that the condom ban is killing women. THAT issue is AT LEAST as important as the death penalty issue, IMO.
6
@Sera Indeed, Pope Benedict spoke to this issue indirectly in 2010, stating basically that the use of a condom to avoid AIDS infection is a "first step toward moralization." Pope Francis poo-pooed the issue in 2015, stating that there are other more pressing issues such as malnutrition and lack of housing. Indeed, AIDS is on the decrease in Africa, which is good; but still more needs to be done, for sure. Thank you.
1
Hopefully the Pope can also prevail on the Catholic packed Supreme Court to stand up for working people, acknowledge that health care should be a universal right, that people’s life and dignity depend on protection of the environment, that money has corrupted the political system to the detriment of all people, and that respect for diversity and gender equality also contribute to the inviolability and dignity of the person.
228
David, I agree with you on health care, the environment and money. It is Congress' responsibility to make laws that are consistent with these values.
6
@David VB In your dreams! As much as I would hope to have a Supreme Court that recognizes these rights and needs, I can't imagine that such a conversion would be brought about by the influence of the Pope. Not even on the Catholic members of the Supreme Court. Most of these concepts have come to us through the influence of the Enlightenment philosophers, not from 2,000 years of Christian doctrine.
1
@David VB the Catholic Church has long argued that a living wage was morally required of those who hire workers. The $18 minimum wage movement is profoundly Catholic in spirit.
1
I wonder how many American Catholics oppose abortion while supporting the death penalty. What a dilemma for them. I don't envy the fit of their spiritual shoes. Will the Pope's declaration change any votes in state elections?
213
@William pine While it is true faithful Catholics must accept the teaching, 1. it is not radically new, considering that the previous position was that the death penalty was almost never permissible; 2. a person would face no logical or moral inconsistency between opposition to abortion and support of the death penalty, considering that the opposition is grounded in protection of the innocent, while the support is grounded in punishment of the guilty.
6
Capital punishment and abortion aren’t the same. Abortion is wrong because it is the taking of an innocent life (murder). Capital punishment is the taking of a guilty life that has forfeited his innocence. Because of this distinction, it is not inconsistent to be pro life and pro capital punishment.
@William pine
There is no dilemma. The death penalty takes the life of someone lawfully convicted of murder. Abortion takes the life of someone innocent by definition.
1
What does Jesus think of capital punishments? Surely pope's opinion can not be in contradiction. Or can it?
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Nor should any Christian church have positions contrary to Jesus, and yet, here we are. Reading the gospels, it's pretty clear that Jesus was fairly radically socialist for his time, and yet somehow so many American churches and their leaders ignore the example of minimalist living and caring for others that Jesus presented in favour of amassing wealth for themselves under the guise of preaching His word.
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@Markkuthou shalt not kill contradicts with the Pope's opinion how?
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Amen! If life is sacred, capital punishment is an abomination.
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My late father was a man before his time. He frequently served on jury duty but refused service on any case where the death penalty was on the table. He could not send any man to his death because once invoked it could not be reversed if later information proved the defendant to be innocent. Thank you Pope Francis for your similar convictions. I am proud to be a Catholic.
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@george
Well I wouldn't go so far as to say i'm proud to be a Catholic until the Pope and the Church declare that all war is immoral. Modern warfare cannot be waged humanly. Let's settle geo-political issues with a game of volleyball or chess or poker. But no more weapons.
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If a faith is built around the idea that salvation can only come from believing in someone on the basis that he was unduly killed through capital punishment, it would stand to reason that said faith would take a stand against the institution. The question is why it has taken so long for a branch of Christianity to reject capital punishment when Jesus said quite specifically, “Thou shalt do no murder.” For too long Christians of all stripes have been using the Old Testament “eye for an eye” instead of the New Testament “forgive and forget.”
Undoubtedly, some crimes are hard to forgive and forget but as with so much cafeteria Christianity these days, one has to remember Jesus did not offer caveats. Catholicism now has a Pope who remembers that.
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@David Marcum “Thou shalt do no murder.” Murder is wrongful killing. Which has not historically been the understanding of capital punishment. Would you say that a soldier who kills another soldier in a just and legal war has committed murder? Is that what the US was doing in WWII?
@David Marcum When Jesus said, "thou shall do no murder", he was quoting the Ten Commandments, i.e., the Old Testament.
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@Just sipping my tea
“Would you say that a soldier who kills another soldier in a just and legal war has committed murder?”
Are all wars just? Are all actions in battle legal?
Unfortunately in war “innocent” people get killed by a nation’s soldiers or by paid mercenaries. People, children, babies, both born and unborn, are killed in war. No penalties or anything. They call that “collateral damage.” For those whose religion teaches all life is sacred...does calling the deaths of civilians in war collateral damage make it seem unfortunate but acceptable?
The studies I have seen say the death penalty is not an effective deterrent to crime. It seems that it’s main reason for being is really just the eye for an eye argument of the Old Testament. Seems like it is time to get rid of it.
A side benefit is it would save money.
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This declaration may well severely upset those who have a blind belief in the so-called "Death Penalty", and, more sensitively, the Families of those who have been cruelly murdered.
But, the Pope's declaration is entirely consistent with the Roman Catholic Church's commitment to, and respect for all "Life", reflected in its various Teachings on most issues.
'Hopefully, we can move on from "an eye for an eye" in seeking a more civilized world - which is what Pope Francis seems to be promoting....
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Finally, a true pro life pope!
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@Joni BarrilleauxI love Pope Francis but to be truly pro-life he also needs to revise the Catholic teachings about war. Jesus Christ was anti-war and all Christians of all varieties need to be anti-war, too.
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You may go too far, Pope. There are crimes, prisons, murderers and war criminals everywhere, any time.
There should be death sentence to deter the scourges.
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@Chinh Dao, but it doesn't deter anyone!
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@Chinh Dao If you review the actual research on the issue, there is no proof that the death penalty deters crime. See https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/1529-nagin-full-reportpdf. When we are talking about taking a human life, we should do all the research necessary to determine whether our beliefs about the efficacy of the process are based in fact or just emotion.
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This may not sit well with many people, but this is a step which must be taken if we are to progress as humans.
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I hope the pope's supporters including the Catholic members in Congress, on the U.S. Supreme Court, and in roles of law enforcement and authority here in the U.S. will embrace the pontiff's wise position and respond accordingly.
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@Ann Of course you realize that contradicts what JFK said! Though I'm Catholic, I won't be a President for the Pope! Additionally, groups like the KKK can increase their Catholic bashing! Unfortunately, this can backfire! Sad.
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This is wonderful to hear, but what is the RCC stance on rape?
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@Christopher They are opposed to it in principle.
@Christopher It’s a gift! The church is not interested in hearing the cries of violated women.
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Quite aside from the issue of whether or not capital punishment should or should not exist in any of our 50 states, what business is it of the ruler of Vatican City? None in my opinion!
Message clear?
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@Penseur
The proclamation is a faith statement made as guidance for Roman Catholics, not a political statement. As with other things, Catholics will follow the Pope's teachings or not. It is then up to American Catholics who chose to follow the Pope's teaching to move in the American political sphere as they see fit. They are citizens and, like all of us, come from a world view and set of beliefs (religious or not), which informs their voting and political action.
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@Penseur
It is his business in that the fair treatment of people everywhere is everyone's business (not just popes' and presidents' either).
Conservatives have no problem accepting Francis' teachings when they align with their own (abortion). This is the other side of the coin.
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@Penseur It's not about you or your country in particular. "Catholic" comes from the Greek word meaning worldwide; Francis was giving a teaching of the worldwide Church and a statement of the public policy position that follows from it. While you seem to have a problem with the pope or the Church, even you wouldn't deny people's right to their beliefs, now would you? Not in my opinion. Message clear?
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Well, if nothing else it's an alignment of values that a life is sacred. Hope the pro choice crowd learns that a fetus is a life despite some that desire to deny that inconvenient reality.
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@Ron: And the woman who is pregnant is ALSO a life, and her life is not less valuable than a fetus. As the saying goes: if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
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Speaking of reality, a fetus is a potential life. The actual life belongs to the living, breathing woman. Unlike the fetus, the woman has a mind and is completely capable of making decisions that affect her life, health and future.
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It is not inconvenient at all. I was brought up in the Lutheran Church and taught that we do not get a soul until we are born live.
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