It's extraordinary that the Mayor of Toronto says that too many guns are available to too many people.
Has he noticed what's happened in the country directly to the south of his for several decades?
Much has been talked about NY currently having a lower per capita murder rate than Toronto. This true for 2018 to date.
This is due in part because NY has consistently become a safer city for years (congratulations NY) and Toronto is having a particularly bad year.
Two tragic events weigh heavily regarding Toronto's unusually high number of 1.67 per 100,000 people vs. NY number of 1.51 per 100,000.
Serial killer Bruce McArthur was charged in January with 8 counts of murder (although the murders were committed earlier than 2018). Ten pedestrians were killed in April by Alek Minassian with a rental van (the InCel murderer).
Those 18 murders are a big part of TO's high number of 48 murders this year.
Hopefully this year is an anomaly. I suspect it is.
Terribly sad subject nonetheless.
2
Remember, this has never happened in Canada, let alone Toronto. We aren't immune to violence or gun crime, but this is truly shocking to Canadians.
We've all grown up watching the US news and the regular shootings that lead local and national networks.
To have it happen in Toronto is the realization that we have to solve an issue that wont go away.
3
The Mayor of Toronto is correct that no-one outside of law enforcement needs to have guns. Most of the guns in Canada come from other countries because they are not manufactured in Canada. Much stricter laws are needed to remove and keep guns from peoples' hands altogether. But that will not prevent other avenues for committing mass murder, such as converting vehicles into killing machines; deranged people with chips on their shoulders will find ways. So much to say the problems underlying these incidents need to be addressed at the their roots. It is not sufficient to aim preventive measures at the instruments used to carry out these acts.
3
I'm trying to to understand.... I thought guns were intended to protect from criminals...all we have are criminals with guns....and their intentions are not to protect!
2
The reason I choose this article was because I saw the title which was Toronto ‘Shocked’ by Shooting the left 2 dead and 13 injured and I thought that there have been many shootings going on the world recently, and I wanted the see the reason behind this particular shooting to see if it had a similar reason to other shootings. I read the article and it said that the reason was unknown. The two people who were killed was an 18-year-old woman and a 10-year-old girl. I find it so sad to see people shooting up streets and young people as young as 10 years old die because of these horrible people. The thing that interested me the most this week was the location of the shooting because you do not normally see things happen in Toronto. Like the article said “And that leads to another question we need to discuss: Why does anyone in this city need to have a gun at all? That's a good question because I understand if you need a small gun in your house for self-defense but to have 10 or 20 guns in your house is completely unnecessary. A reason that this interested me so much is that I like the know not just what's going on in the United States but outside of America because it is good to know what’s happening in our country but it’s better to know what happening outside our country.
1
I am sorry the US is infecting Canada.
3
act quickly or you'll end up with the insanity the US is experiencing. Allow every yahoo to have a gun and you'll have road rage, "stand your ground" idiocy, and militias! No one will be safe and everyone will be a potential victim.
5
@washingtonmink Sadly, an extremely high percentage (I read 98% in the LA Times) of guns used in crimes in Canada come from the U.S. Please keep advocating for gun control in your country, we certainly support you!
3
@Emily S we certainly will - first objective along those lines is to get rid of the republican Congress in November. Then on to the tyrannical trump in 2020. We're working hard to accomplish this and bring back our democracy! We love you Canada.
The shooter has been identified as an extremely unstable young man by his family. He has suffered severe mental illness all his life according to them. Most mentally ill people are the victims of crime and not the perpetrators.
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/04/mental-illness-crime.aspx
He would not have been able to legally buy a gun or ammunition.
I am ashamed that our healthcare system was unable to help him, and horrified by the consequences. I hope this failure will lead to improvements.
My condolences to all the people who were injured and killed, and all the families that have been devastated by this violence.
4
@Jean Nobody's system could "help" if he had a health card he'd be open to all the help possible.
1
As a strong supporter and gun owner I can honestly say that every time I have left my guns alone never once did they commit any acts of violence perhaps my guns are just better behaved or maybe just maybe it's not the gun but the person behind it that's the problem
4
A great example of gun control legislation in action. Only the mentally ill and terrorists have guns.
5
@Don Not really. Gun violence was increasing before stricter laws. Please explain.
1
@Don, Wow... what an unbelievably ignorant and compassionless comment that is. It's typical of Americans to try to justify their mania for holding guns by trying to imply that another country that tries to restrict access is somehow failing. Look in the mirror -- look at your country and its 10-firearms-per-capita ratio. So, Don, I guess that means that everyone INCLUDING the mentally ill and terrorists (let's see: Parkland, Sandy Hook, Orlando, Las Vegas, San Bernardino... the list goes on and on) get to own firearms in your country. How's that working out for you?? P.S. Where do you think the firearms that are not legally available to mentally disturbed Canadians come from, anyway? You guessed it... USA number one again...
6
It’s really crazy how there is so much Gun violence In this world. That 18 year old girl and that 10 yearl old girl didn’t deserve to die. They both had a whole life to live for and it’s not right. Also those people who got hurt god bless them all.But things happen for a reason. It’s a good idea for the people who sells the guns to keep in track in what they sell and who they sell it too. But it’s not good enough. That rule is not going to change people from killing each other. There has to be something better than this idea, we just need to think harder!
"In a statement, Hussain’s family said he struggled with psychosis and “severe mental health challenges” his entire life.
Canadian gun laws prohibits people with known mental problems to purchase firearms so how did Hussain acquire a firearm? I guess gun laws do not prevent firearms related murders!
3
@scythians What compassion. So you are saying that everyone should be allowed to have guns in Canada as well. Thanks, but no thanks.
3
This report managed to totally avoid focussing on the shooter. He was why mayhem came to this lovely place. Even with strict gun laws this shooter would have found a way. So why did he shoot? What can be done to stop people like him?
2
The Danforth strip in our neighboring city of Toronto is a delightful place to spend a warm summer evening.Lots of restaurants,bars,dessert cafes and the like. It is hard to imagine the horror of Sunday evening. An international city subject to to the same urban risks as other world capitals. The only positive takeaway is that Canada’s effective control over assault weapons prevented even greater carnage. Small comfort.
8
Local newscasts say the shooter, Mr.Hussain, had struggled with mental illness according to his family.
4
This is what happens when populations become trapped at the bottom of Maslow’s Hierarchy, stressed out by everyday life and unable to cope.
Governments and elites love it, keep the masses too busy paying their bills to question why their rent is 40% of their income, why they can’t afford to send their kids to a good school, or pay their medical bills... add a good dose of mental illness issues to this and you have a common occurrence, no matter where you live, unfortunately.
12
It's only been a few months since Toronto had to deal with the other crazed guy - the one who opted to use a van rather than a gun to kill and injure people. While Canada clearly has gun control laws - this did not impact the events of today or in April. The question is why do we both seem to have these angry men who feel so alienated and feel the need to kill and injure as many people as they can - and how we can stop this? It's very worrisome that this appears to be a growing trend.
6
Unfortunately many of the guns in this city or smuggled across the border from the United States. Our border guards are more like the tax collectors them they are security representatives. They will spend more time asking you for receipts from your Walmart purchases than checking the trunk of a suspicious person.
In many cases there are groups of individuals that do not need to submit to search but we won’t get into that.
9
So the lunatic with the gun killed 2 people and the lunatic with the truck killed 10 people. Sounds like they need more stringent driver's license laws to me. Or maybe, they too should search for solutions as to why our society creates people capable of such unthinkable acts.
3
Good to see Canadians enjoying recreational gun use as we do in the U.S.
3
@Psyfly John Thank God Canada doesn't come close to the trauma exhibited in the U.S. concerning the use of guns to murder people. Last year Chicago had approximately 550 murders. Canada had the same, approximately. 2,700,000 to 35,000,000.
6
US population is about 10 times that of Canada. In 2016, US had about 17,000 homicides, consid rally less than 10 times the number in Canads, so I guess Canada has a bigger homicide problem than US.
@BecauseFactsMatter This is simply wrong. In 2016 Canada had 611 homicides, roughly 30 times less than the US. Our homicide rate per capita is about 1/3 of the US.
See:
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/171122/dq171122b-eng.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_...
4
I was born in Toronto, it was, and is , a great city. Yet great international cities first day themselves embroiled in situations like this. We still don't have details at this writing. I'm curious to see the info on the shooter. This, however, is more reason to maintain our very restricted gun laws. We DON'T need guns. This isn't what drives being Canadian.
10
Toronto is now more dangerous to live in than New York City. Last year, NYC had 784 recorded shootings and Toronto had 395. Given that NYC has almost three times the population of Toronto, Torontos's per capita shooting rates are almost 60% higher than those in New York.
Yet whatever has happened in New York City has happened under America's constitutional right to gun ownership. While I think US gun policies are nuts, it is apparent you can have a sane, non-violent community even in the presence of the Second Amendment, and also that you can have a far more violent community, such as Toronto, in the presence of strict gun control laws.
4
Agree but where do you think the guns come from? 99% smuggled from the USA. Mostly Florida.
Thanks again America
15
@Chuck French
Toronto only just surpassed NYC's homicide rate per 100,000 this year, but Toronto isn't a "far more violent community." This year is most likely an outlier, as 2005 was. Historically, Toronto's homicide rate has been lower than NYC's, along with its violent crime rate. I'd be willing to bet it will be lower again next year, but time will tell.
4
If it was not guns, it will be knifes or buses or anything that can be weapon used in the hands of a motivated hater.
It shocks Americans to think that our national gun disease can spread across the border. Key is to finally admit that guns kill people because they are built for the purpose of killing. To say the guns are innocent is beyond foolishness. They need to be controlled strictly, especially as they become more and more attractive "final solutions" for any aggravation. America is sick
with guns. Like viruses, they must be eliminated.
They create too insane a degree of power and self-justification in weak minds. AS shooter doesn't have to have a mental disorder. He might
just have a neighbor who bothers him, or he might be in a crowd that has different races in it.
Or a grandmother who picks at his sloppy habits.
Only solution, and it won't be perfect, is to license every gun, ID owners, sellers, and confiscate all
military style weapons because they greatly increase the slaughter. Condemn guns more than
abortion. More than socialists. More than Muslims, Blacks, Jews. Warning, pre-broadcast:"This film, this TV show depicts killing by gun." Make the public self-conscious about the cowardice and paranoid attached to gun-toting. Don't celebrate violence by gun, never mind anything else.
11
@Poesy Educate yourself on crime statistics, the numbers of people killed with handguns versus "military style weapons", etc. before you sound off like an ignorant whiner. The great majority of American victims killed by guns are killed with handguns, like the victims in Toronto here. And handguns are far harder to access in Canada than they are here. Same goes for other countries that have experienced mass shootings, e.g. Paris in November 2015. That should tell you something about why gun control laws have limited effectiveness and are not a panacea.
3
@Wayne … telling people their comments are "ignorant" or "inane" does nothing to get your point across.
2
Thoughts and prayers to those who have lost loved ones. I am so sorry. Interactions with evil are utterly traumatic.
Commenters continue to parrot that the problem here is gun control. It's disappointing. So disappointing. Stop being more afraid of guns than you are of cars. You're far more likely to be maimed or killed by the latter. Stop being more afraid of guns than you are of murderous people.
Guns are a necessary. In order to defend oneself from evil, you sometimes must be willing to use the force that evil is willing to use.
Guns are a protection from tyranny. If you don't think that guns perform this function, I'd ask you to look at Al'Qaeda, ISIS, the Viet-Cong, or any other insurgent force. A group of guerilla fighters with small arms are more than capable of causing massive disruption. And yet, this type of insurgent force doesn't exist in America. Why? Because America is a wonderful place to live currently. We do not live in tyranny. But if we did, you would be quite happy to have a neighbor that was stocked enough to fight back.
Yes--they can also be used to commit horrible acts. As can a truck full of fertilizer. Or people armed with shivs on a plane. Or a few hundred gallons of gasoline.
Stop allowing this coverage to scare you. You are stronger than that. Remember that we are not descended from fearful men.
And give comfort to the loved ones of the victims.
4
@Anon - the majority of Canadian are proud of our restrictive gun laws. Like many Canadians, I believe it is a fundamental right to be able to walk the streets without fear of being shot. And I don't believe there is any such right to carry a weapon - it is not in our Charter of Rights, the facts show that the right to carry a gun does not make you safer. We do not have 'stand your ground' laws and we are a better society for it. We in Canada do not live in tyranny. You are tyrannized by the NRA and big corporate finance into believing you are fighting for liberty when really you are fighting for corporate profit
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@Anon
"Guns are a necessary. In order to defend oneself from evil, you sometimes must be willing to use the force that evil is willing to use"
I see that you live in Florida. Perhaps you could go and run this theory by Britany Jacobs, who just lost her husband, and whose children lost their father, to someone who was "standing his ground" in the parking lot of a convenience store.
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There is a correlation between the surge in victims who claim to be targeted for "organized stalking" and the global spike in public massacres.
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
2
It has been reported that the perpetrator was a 29 yr. old white man. As of yet, there is no name attached to him. At this stage we obviously do not know what motivated this terrible crime, however, we just might have to face the fact that similar to the Las Vegas shooter, after months of study, they never did determine the reason for his actions.
5
@Deus
The fact they didn't report on the reason for the Vegas shooting doesn't really mean they never determined one. It is clear Paddock had some partisan motivations, similar to the Steve Scalise shooting, that have been played down by the media. In the same light, it is likely this event was the act of an Islamic terrorist, or at least someone driven by Islamic Extremism. A very small chance it is a second In-Cel type of event, more proof of the media's effect if that turns out to be the case, but almost surely a terror attack. I think they know that right now but don't want to say it for the same reason they never revealed Paddock's possible motive to kill Trump supporters, or at least who he perceived to be Trump supporters.
1
The Canadians address the issue of gun violence IMMEDIATELY. THEY value human lives more than the American Administration and the NRA! No surprise here - only "prayers and condolences" for our children and parents that have been slaughtered at the hands of non-illegal-immigrant Americans (and other nice people).
This is shameful for all legislators who have refused to deal with the huge slate of mass shootings that have occurred here. Evidently the Canadians march to a better tune than this apathetic country does.
We could learn at LOT about governance and civility from them, Trump not withstanding.
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Our northern neighbor has succumbed to the shooting craze of their southern neighbor. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
2
The web of the NRA is far-reaching, even out of its country.
5
@Bill Wilkerson That is the most inane comment I've read on the NY Times comment threads and that is saying a lot. The NRA has ZERO political influence north of the border. Canada's gun laws are far stricter than ours. Yet even with strict gun control laws, these incidents cannot be entirely prevented. Do a web search and you'll find that even in countries with very strict gun laws where civilian ownership is minimal to nonexistent, they have episodes like this.
3
When I was growing up in Toronto in the 1950s it was "Toronto the Good". By and large it still is.
14
Much of the increase in violence in the US has been fostered by drug gangs originating in Mexico and Central and South America. America's southern border is porous, and that porosity is exploited by the cartels trafficking humans, drugs, and weapons. Canada's southern border is huge by comparison, and some of the infiltrators are necessarily making their way north, so expect crime to increase. Until the US closes the border, arrests and imprisons or deports those who are by definition of criminal persuasion (their first act was to break immigration law), there will be NO letup, as the Hispanic and Latino third world lawlessness increasingly infests the US and Canada. The problem is in the hands holding the weapons - not the weapons; right, police officers?
7
@GSteele Infests? Without one scintilla of evidence as to who the shooter was or his motives you come up with this. What if it's some white, Canadian, christian guy who has mental health problems. What do you say then? No weapons, no mass shooting.
10
@GSteele There is a porous border of guns going south from the US and north to Canada. This is an issue for gang-related violence in Toronto. (We don't yet know anything about this particular incident.)
7
We don’t have to be tight 100% of the time to notice a pattern! It’s just common sense to consider a highly probable scenario!
1
We need to stop the sale of bullets of all kinds to the public. This killing is all out of control and that is the only way to stop it. The 2nd amendment has been abused by the NRA and members. If our constitution writers knew about automatic weapons and what they can do this problem would not be happening today.
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@D.j.j.k.
Right on and we must stop the sale of vans as well! Three months ago ten people were killed in an attack when a van driver drove on the sidewalk in Toronto.
Our Founding Fathers had no idea how dangerous vans would be one day. We need to ban vans now!
7
@D.j.j.k.
News like this is terrible, but I have a hard time understanding your recommended solution. Are you saying that if bullets were outlawed, criminals will no longer be able to gain access them? That strikes me as more than a bit far-fetched. The purpose of the NRA is to protect the right of law abiding citizens to provide for their own self-defense which strikes as me as entirely reasonable.
3
@D.j.j.k. Same tired talking points from the anti-gun crowd. "Ban guns and ammo" and we won't have gun violence. Doesn't work that way even in Canada where they have strict gun laws, or the UK or France or any other country with even stricter controls on gun access. With very little effort, I can manufacture a gun, or buy one on the black market, or engage in other conduct to obtain a gun. You cannot legislate away a technology, particularly one that is relatively small and cheap. And where there is a demand for guns (and there will ALWAYS be a demand for guns for good or ill reasons), there will be suppliers. The drug epidemic in this country is proof enough of that reality.
1
What a terrible senseless tragedy. The police neutralized him, can they not release his details by now? If they know his age, they must know his name etc. They owe this to the public whom they serve.
The authorities stated that they cannot rule out terrorism. They do not need to provide a motive now, that can come later, but they should release his name and what they do know of him, which must be more than as 'a 29-year-old man'. What are the authorities hiding from the public, and why?
6
@Philly
Writing from Toronto as a long time resident: They have not released his name because they haven't yet been able to locate and notify his next of kin. We have been told so far that he is a 29 year old white man from Toronto. But there's no conspiracy here, no "authorities hiding" anything, just a policy of notifying family before broadcasting a person's death to the general public.
7
@Philly; Why do you feel you have to know these details? He is dead and no threat now to anyone else. There is a movement to keep information about perpetrators out of the media in order to reduce copycat attacks, and this seems to be effective. Try to just move along.
5
@Philly
They are probably not hiding anything. More likely, they wish to be sure that whatever details they release will not unnecessarily inflame anyone prone to speculate and jerk off in violence.
6
As a former Toronto resident, I am especially saddened and somewhat shocked by this terrible crime on The Danforth there. And yet it also reminds me that stereotypes are in deed nothing but stereotypes. When I moved here to New York City 28 years ago, my family and friends in Toronto all cautioned me to be careful in the famously scary dangerous Big Apple. In the meantime, during my many years in Toronto, I was severely gay-bashed twice, my apartment was burglarized once when I was in it, and I was pick pocketed twice. In contrast, in the nearly three decades since then that I have resided in New York City, I have never been the victim of any crime.
8
@Frederick You were "gay bashed" twice in Canada but never in NYC. Why do you think that has been the case? Are Americans more accepting of gay men than Canadians? I doubt it. And you moved to NYC when its murder rate was far higher than it is today due to the last years of the crack epidemic (c. 1990). So one has to wonder why it is that you escaped the kinds of criminal behavior you experienced in Toronto while living in NYC. I'm not trolling, I'm actually wondering why that is the case.
3
@Wayne I think one of the reasons is that everyone feels so safe on the whole in Toronto that one does not think of falling victim to such an idiosyncratic crime as gay bashing - less precautions are taken. I will say here in New York I watch my back more because that's just part of the culture here. But the point I was hoping to make is that crime can happen anywhere. One never knows.
Toronto is now the Fourth largest city in N/A and among the most multicultural in the world and growing. For a long time while a lot of this type of tragedy was happening around us, I guess we somewhat naively felt it still could not happen here whereby there was a few among the millions around us who would ultimately act out whatever disconnect or anger they had on the rest of society. Well, it happened in the van attack, now with this and I gather inevitably in the future, we can only be more vigilant as to what is going on around us.
Ultimately, life goes on and over the next weekend or two a long time event named "The Taste of the Danforth" will happen at this same stretch of streets where well over a million people will gather at this same location and despite this tragedy, they will enjoy themselves and not let this type of random violence control their lives.
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I don't know for sure what the motive or cause of this heinous action was. But I am struck how the majority of comments immediately go to blame guns, the US, and President Trump.
As we don't have the details, it would seem the prudent thing to withhold judgement and speculation. If recollection serves me, the last few big incidents like this in Canada were terrorism related, yet I'm not ready to label this one as such. Still while we're at it: I do recall Justin Trudeau righteously implying that while he was busy saying "Welcome home" to refugees and such, that his southern neighbors were racist and bigoted. We shall see...
16
@toddchow, I'm curious to know what the "last few big incidents like this in Canada" that were terrorism-related, you are referring to...? I think your recollection is mistaken: the last "big incident" was the van attack in Toronto a few months ago which had nothing to do with terrorism. Prior to that, not sure which you mean. There was a case where a Canadian national (Christian, Caucasian) shot up a mosque in Quebec City, but this was clearly a case of deranged NON-immigrant, NON-refugee perpetuating a hate crime. I believe the point Mr. Trudeau was attempting to make is that having a paranoid fear of allowing immigrants or refugees into our country is not productive; no statistical evidence exists to prove that terrorism-related crimes will increase as a result. However, one thing that has been proven unequivocally is that the flood of illegal firearms into Canada from the US has made our country less safe: 60% of the firearms used in crime in Canada have been smuggled in from south of the border. So, perhaps the comments here do merit some attention. As to what yesterday night's incident in Toronto will reveal to us, yes, we shall see.
20
Per Compstat, the chance of being shot in Toronto is 2018 is now higher than the chance of being shot in the Bronx.
That statistic is inconceivable for anyone over the age of 40, who remembers when New York was a slaughterhouse and Toronto the Good was the model city of order and safety. Disturbing.
14
My heart grieves for two victims unknown to me. It is inconceivable that people cannot go out to dinner without fear, even in Canada.
Yet I will still visit Toronto soon as planned and look forward to a safe and enjoyable visit.
21
@Barbara Yes, come. You will be safe.
8
A shooting like this, whatever the cause, is a rare event in Canada, fortunately.
It's good the mayor is calling for stricter gun laws. Hopefully Toronto (and Canada) will make it harder to buy a gun.
Unlike the U.S., there is no NRA, powerful gun lobby, or 2nd Amendment in Canada pushing gun rights and preventing debate. Which means they can actually discuss the issue and take steps to make it harder to get guns which will make the country safer.
46
@Eric: The NRA is 3 million people, out of 360 million people. And shootings are becoming a Canadian problem.
2
@Eric Unfortunately, many illegal guns come up from the US.
8
@Eric Canada should stay under the radar and stay strong. When Russia comes to infiltrate your politics, your free press and your voting, remember your old friend the US, and how Russia destroyed our decent country. Don't let it happen to you.
2
This is terrible thing that happened and I wish the family's the best through all of this, but the main thing is that we have no reason to believe that there wont be more shootings in this area even with the fact that Toronto is said to be a great area. There are many shootings that are happening world wide and we can't change that nor can we know their going to happening in the first place. The best thing we can do is to at least find a reason for why these shootings have been happening and what their reasoning was for killing or injuring innocent people that weren't involved with them at all.
2
@Julia Iannacone We can do more to restrict the availability of guns. Many gang related shootings use illegal guns they've gotten from the US. (We don't know the particulars in this shooting.)
2
“We have a gun problem,” Mr. Tory said at Monday’s news conference.
Very helpful. Welcome to North America where anyone can have a gun! It's our constitutional right, right? And to think people were afraid that the military or the police were the ones to be feared. One can't have it both ways. It's the 21st century not the 18th or earlier.
4
@Bill
Canada is not the US. We do not have the right to own guns entrenched in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
13
@Bill Sprague Handguns are severely restricted in Canada. The fact that guns are still everywhere is due to the "constitutional right" in the US, which floods Canada with illegal guns.
10
@Bill Sprague It's not a constitutional right in Canada, but there are still too many guns there.
1
This isn't indicative of a gun problem, this is indicative of a people problem. Bad people do bad things.
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@Jose MendezFewer guns available means fewer murderous crimes.
2
@Jose Mendez
Would you give a 3year-old a gun?
2
@Jose Mendez Bad people can do worse bad things with guns, or grenades, or nuclear bombs, etc.
2
Angry shooters who are basically on a mission to commit suicide and take a few people with them must change the way we look at gun ownership. It has to.
33
It is always a shock to hear of such violence occurring in Canada. One never equates gun violence with the stunningly low crime nation. It seems to be more frequent though and this is both alarming and sad. If it is determined to be a terrorist attack, which is sounding likely, it may result in a not so nice backlash up north. Canadians are generally nice enough people but this may test their strength. May they hold tight through this difficult period of time and become stronger together.
3
@CC The shooter has been described as a white male. It's terrorism no matter who was shooting.
2
The mayor asked why any gun owner would need to buy 10 or 20 guns, which is lawful under the current rules: “That leads to another question that we need to discuss: Why does anyone in this city need to have a gun at all?”
30
@Kate to defend against people like this and others who will use knives, acid, trucks, cars, and anything to cause mayhem. Concealed carry brings civility. You don't shoot when there's a high probability that your targets will shoot back. Notice how there are no mass killings in police stations?
4
@GSteele Having a gun wouldn't have stopped any of this. Most of us aren't trained to get out gun ready to fire and shoot at a van coming at us. And I hope we never are.
@GSteele
No - extreme gun control bring civility and diminished violence.
No doubt there will be a tendency to blame this on the 'migrant' problem, but as I recall, Stephen Paddock, Adam Lanza and Timothy McVeigh were not migrants. For every problem, there is always a solution that is quick, simple and wrong (HLM).
20
@David no, I very much doubt it will be blamed on the "migrant" (non)problem. Unless you mean the ease by which guns can get into Canada from the USA. Handguns in particular are very hard to obtain legally, but with hundreds of millions of them just south of us, they're getting much too easy to obtain illegally. So if you guys want to build a wall, I'd be very grateful if you'd build it up here.
11
@David, we don't have the same type or level of demagogery in Canada as in the U.S. today. The last federal government was thrown out, in part, because it appeared to be trying to exploit that kind of wedge issue. The new Ontario premier comes from one of the most ethnically diverse ridings (like a district) in the Province.
His only complaint thus far is that the current Federal Government needs to provide more financial assistance to Montreal and Toronto, which are accomodating some few thousands of migrants who have taken advantage of a loophole in the rules to claim refugee status coming from the USA (normally, they would be sent back because the U.S. is a safe country for refugees to claim asylum).
Nevertheless, the premier is already being pilloried by many as being a tin pot trump. The worst ephitet one can use in Canadian politics is not that somebody is pro- or anti-immigration, but rather that they are like, or friendly with, U.S. politicians. The national inferiority complex this reflects should be the subject of another story....
1
@Todd It's not because of national inferiority, but a general dislike of far right-wing governments with a penchant for war, in the US. We tend to be far more liberal. We had no issue with politicians agreeing with Obama.
Uh-oh, our gun "culture" has bled into our peaceful northern neighbors. Real Americans' hearts go out to our Canadian friends.
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@CP, sadly, one of the [few] negative side-effects of deep economic integration between our countries is that trade in illicit goods (such as handguns or opioids) becomes easier too.
As for culture, surveys of "gun" owners in the U.S. and Canada reveal a prominent difference. Whereas 60% of American gun owners say they keep a firearm for protection/security, the comparable number in Canada is only 5%. That's an interesting distinction.
This video, produced by a reporter for the [Toronto] National Post, discusses the difference (but be warned, it was produced two years ago, and not in the wake of a mass shooting, so it has a humourous tone instead of a serious one).
https://videosift.com/canada/video/Canada-the-land-of-responsible-gun-nuts
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@CP Last week the PM created a new Ministry and Member of Cabinet to be responsible for Border Control. He's Bill Blair a Toronto MP and former chief of police for that city. So much for traditional policies with the US.
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Strict gun control laws and liberal immigration policies like Canada has don't prevent these kinds of attacks.
Stand your ground laws like Florida has would help to defend against this type of attack.
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@Don, how would a "stand your ground" law help with this sort of attack? Stand your ground laws modify the traditional common law rules for defence of self and defence of property in land. That's it.
I assume what you are actually advocating is that Canadian laws be changed to permit individuals to carry concealed firearms. That's not going to happen because (as I just explained in another post), Canadian firearms owners overwhelmingly see their weapons as a sporting good, not a source of personal protection.
In any event, just like in the U.S., the vast majority of Canadians prefer tight restrictions on firearms (which is why, for example, the insane and convicted criminals are prohibited from acquiring them).
The biggest difference between the two countries, in this regard, is that majority opinion translates into majority rule in our Parliament, which means our prime minister holds his position because a plurality of voters chose her party. We have no archaic electoral college system to throw up absurd results (like the election of a president who lost the popular vote by over 3 million). We also have longer periods between elections (5 instead of 2) and tighter campaign finance rules, which leaves much less room for an organization such as the NRA to corrupt the process). Thus, whereas in Canada we have the firearms rules that the majority supports, in your country basically anybody can acquire a weapon, legally or otherwise.
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@Don
You're joking right? Neither of what you state has any resemblance to reality. Obviously, unlike where you live, the area where this happened experiences violence very irregularly and there were hundreds of people around eating in restaurants, walking about with their families and enjoying their outing.
I suppose throwing an ice cream cone at the perpetrator would have helped? Your attitude is the one that we want to avoid at all costs in which you believe there is evil around every corner.
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@Don Ya, sure. It would have been better with 20-50 people all firing at the gunman on an incredibly crowded street with full restaurants at night.
Good plan.
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This is a tragedy that would have been considerably worse if that gunman had easy access to high powered, large clip weapons like we have in the states. My condolences to the families and friends and the victims of this firearm violence.
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@Joe Barnett
The SKS is non-restricted and holds a 30 round magazine just fine. Thousands exist throughout Canada. Yeah, those magazines have rivets in them to keep them to just 5 rounds. Any person intent on causing harm will defeat that restriction in seconds. Its not the laws, its the people.
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@GregP, You can't change the people. But you can make it much harder for them to get a gun.
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It's kind of ironic. Yesterday afternoon an old friend said that she was off to a Sunday family dinner on the Danforth (aka Greektown). I was really envious because I have a lot of pleasant and fun memories of Sunday evening dinners there. It was--and may still be--kind of a Toronto custom. And I also have lots of memories of feeling safe in Toronto, even riding the subway by myself at night.
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While this is a terrible loss of life, Canada remains a peaceful, civilized country, especially compared to the national shooting gallery that is the United States of Guns.
In 2016, Canada had 223 firearm‑related homicides....... compared to 14,925 gun murders in the United States of Guns.
The rate of homicides by shooting in 2016 was 0.61 per 100,000 population in Canada..... compared to 3.8 per 100,000 in the United States of Guns.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2017001/article/54879-eng.htm
https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-by-the-numbers/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/249805/homicide-by-firearm-rate-in-t...
Anyone wishing to buy a gun in Canada and/or ammunition must have a valid licence under the Firearms Act. To obtain a firearms licence, all applicants must undergo a screening process, which includes a safety course, criminal history and background checks, provision of personal references, and a mandatory waiting period.
America, of course, suffers from advanced 2nd Amendment Derangement Syndrome and is an international gun violence disgrace story.
Canada is a much safer country than the United States of Guns because they have serious regulation of murder weapons.
No system is perfect, but Canada's system has kept gun murders very low and is a tribute to their superior public policy and common sense.
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Instead of comparing Canada to the USA and attributing the difference to differences in gun laws, you should compare New Jersey to Vermont. New Jersey has gun laws that are among the strictest, while Vermont's laws are among the most lax. You will find the rate of gun violence much higher in New Jersey, especially when shooter and victim are unrelated.
Perhaps Americans are just more violent than Canadians by nature.
I remember I took a course in statistics. Cities with more churches usually had more liquor stores and taverns. That didn't prove that religion caused drunkenness.
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If you adjust for population and population density, you would find a clear correlation between gun availability and crime lethality across the nation. Also, NJ gun laws have relatively weak effect because of neighboring states with near-nonexistent gun laws.
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@RM - I'm sorry, but you are wrong. New Jersey was ranked #45 out of the states in terms of gun violence per capita by USA Today, based on CDC data. (Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 5.5 per 100,000). Vermont is #36 (Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 11.0 per 100,000).
I can't stand that people just spout off talking points they probably heard on Fox or from the NRA without doing basic research.
Toronto is a great city because of its people; a berk moron is not going to change that.
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The last government (Conservative) relaxed the gun protocols in Canada so the result has been a rise in gun incidents. And yes, when recovered 75% of all guns used in crime when recovered were traced to the US, smuggled in for resale at huge mark-ups or rented on an ad hoc basis. The NRA is a $$ supporter of something called the Fraser Institute a BC right wing band who lobbied Tory PM Harper very hard to relax weapon protocols.
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@stewart This was my thought exactly. When you have a southern neighbor that is awash in guns, it seems that they must start migrating north. This American apologizes to the Canadian people.
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@stewart, how would anything the previous Federal Government did with respect to firearms regulation address the problem you've identified: viz. that the vast majority of firearms used to commit crimes in Canada were illegally transported from the United States into Canada?
The previous Federal Government didn't change customs laws to make it easier to import firearms, did it? Nope.
The previous Federal Government did end a controversial firearms registry, which was extremely unpopular with rural voters (because it imposed complicated red tape on them, without any discernible societal benefit) and with voters generally (because of the ridiculous costs of its flawed implementation). Moreover, it was a "long gun" registry (i.e. it addressed only rifles, not handguns). I'd love to hear your explanation for how this legislative change could have had any impact whatsoever on last night's shooting.
As for your reference to the Fraser Institute, I'd appreciate receiving a reference to credible evidence of the funding you mentioned, as well as evidence that such funding, if it did exist, contributed to a Fraser Insitute publication that: (i) led to a public policy change at the federal level; and (ii) evidence that this public policy change impacted either the problem you mentioned (illegal imports of firearms) or last night's shootings.
Logic-based causation if far more illuminating than expressions of feeling.
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@stewart The current government (Liberal) abolished the mandatory minimum prison sentences for gun crimes that the previous government put in place, so the result has been a rise in gun crime. And it isn't Americans smuggling handguns into Canada, it's Canadians.
The world is definitely in flux, and I don’t care where you live, you’re not safe anywhere anymore,”
I doubt there is one person I know who either does not believe nor feels that fear most days. Deepest condolences to the loved ones and friends of the two individuals who were murdered. Stay strong Toronto! America mourns your loss and shares in the pain your are experiencing. We love you guys!
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Canada has banned handguns for the most part. Like so many say, if someone wants a gun bad enough, they will get one no matter WHAT laws have been passed.
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@gjdagis Handguns are not banned here, but there are strict laws in obtaining one. Illegal handguns are a big problem.
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@gjdagis
Yeah, you can probably get a gun in the most restrictive countries in the world if you know who to contact. But one wonders why the gun homicide-suicide rate in the US is so high. Gee, I wonder why.
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@gjdagis You are oh so correct. These criminals will get a handgun if they want one badly enough. Our previous Government passed a law that had a minimum sentence for being convicted a having a handgun but that was struck down by our high court. This hits very close to home for me and it affects all of us. Hopefully we are still known as " Toronto the good" as we have amazing people living here who care fro one another. Where this occurred is known as Greektown where restaurants prevail and crime is very low. Anything can happen anywhere at any time. Peace to all.
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What do you want to bet the shooter bought his weapon in the United States?
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@William E. Keig You may very well be right but we do not want to place blame on the U.S. You are our neighbours and friends. The blame needs to be placed at the feet of the shooter regardless of where the weapon came from. Thank you for caring enough to comment.
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@William E. Keig
Many of the handguns being used on the streets of Toronto were originally purchased in the U.S.
Gun violence in this city would certainly be (much) worse if handguns could be casually purchased here, as opposed to casually purchased somewhere in the U.S. and smuggled and resold here.
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@William E. Keig, "extremely remote" would be the answer to your question, because of the likelihood of having it confiscated at the border. It's much more likely would be that it was obtained illegally in Toronto.
Of course, since the only firearms manufacuterers in Canada are those who manufacture rifles for sporting and military uses, the vast majority of handguns in Canada (legally or illicitly) will have been made in the U.S.A.
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Et tu, Canada?
My daughter and son-in-law live in Toronto, and as of 7:40 a.m. Monday, I don't know if they're okay or not. I hope and presume they are. Should I panic, worry, or assume they weren't in the danger zone at that time? It's a huge city, the fourth largest in population in North America. I'll text them, but for some reason they don't get my texts till a day or so later; they have American phone carriers.
I think they are safer there than in their last home, St. Louis. I'm hiding in Northwest Florida, hoping my grandsons, aged two and four, won't be shot at their school here in the Gunshine State.
Statistically, they claim, we are all safer in 2018 than in years past, which indeed does give me a measure of confidence. For statisticians and their ilk accurately predicted Hillary's presidency.
Maybe I'll see you tomorrow.
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@Jim Muncy Not to worry, I live here and I'm still alive... seriously though, as horrific as this latest incident is, this is a safe city and getting shot here is about as likely as winning the lottery - not a zero change, but very slim.
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@Maurizio
Thanks! And I agree: It's much safer there than in St. Louis.
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My deepest condolences to the wonderful people of Toronto as well as all Canadians. Something like this is indeed shocking and frightening. It used to be in the US, too... but no longer. It is refreshing to read of a political leader immediately state that there is a gun problem, and not be admonished for "politicizing the tragedy." But disheartening that regardless of the country's tough gun restrictions, shootings are still becoming more and more common. What a world we live in.
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@PCW Yes, deep condolences to the people of Toronto and to all Canadians. Canada still has a chance to change things and it was helpful to hear that Trudeau stated that there is a gun problem. I suspect the NRA has its tentacles in Canada, as it does in Mexico. Since the NRA virtually owns the USA, Canadians will need to be far more diligent than mere screening of citizens or changing local laws.
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@PCW Thank you so much for your kind words. It is indeed shocking to us as handguns are rarely seen here. Handguns are banned except for police so it is very unusual for them to be used to kill. We will continue to move forward as a City but this has certainly hit us hard. The Danforth area is known as a family area where nearly every building houses a greek restaurant. It has always been a safe area. God bless us all.
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@PCW Yes, US politicians at all levels are loathe to suggest that there might not be a need -- never mind a right -- for citizens to have so many guns.
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A "gun problem" is a euphemism for a people problem. That is, the problem is people who use guns against other people. Focus on the problem people, not the device, and there will be progress overcoming violence. Mis-identify the problem and energy and time and lives are wasted. All the talk is about "gun control" when the announced objective should be "people control." Regulate people insofar as their acquisition of firearms. Prevent people from acquiring firearms by a more thorough people control system. We don't have car control or truck control, we regulate people in their use of cars and trucks.
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@John The DMV is the Department of Motor Vehicles not the Department of People Who Drive Cars. Cops monitor the speed of your vehicle and give the person driving it a ticket. It may be semantics but Mr. Tory is not shying away from the problem, however you name it.
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@John These "people" are acquiring guns illegally and without the guns, we wouldn't have these problems.
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@John--We need both: gun control, people control, whatever will cut down on the number of senseless shootings. Regulate it all. Control it all. Do whatever is necessary. The killing is out of control and must be stopped.
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Wow, this is getting close to home. Yesterday was the story of the hostage taking, with guns at the Trader Joe's in LA, where my son and daughter-in-law shop. My son teaches at UCLA, yep when was that shooting? A good friend on faculty here at the lake right now, from Toronto, a shooting, and when was the Barcelona shooting? A faculty person had a good friend injured in that one. Mental Health? Terrorism? Something has to give. Why are the people who are doing the most damage to Americans protected from this?
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This is jolting - I have never felt unsafe when visiting Toronto. our beautiful, vibrant provincial capital. Shootings like this are extremely rare.
I don’t think I’ll be the only Canadian feeling that events like this have been influenced by the deterioration of American character and leadership. As a teacher, I have seen that the tone of a school is almost always set by its top administration. I have seen school principals turn a school around 180 degrees by strong moral leadership, clear expectations, consistency, and appropriate consequences. I believe the same holds true for those in our highest offices.
Alas, the tone of the Trump administration has seeped across our borders, and despite the fact we have a Prime Minister we are proud of, one cannot escape the continual barrage against decency and truth.
Dear American friends, what happens in your country influences the world. In your next election, I kindly urge you to make choices that will reclaim the respect, dignity, and moral authority that are rightfully yours. We are counting on you.
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Certainly it's not directly his fault, but there is a certain amount of negativity and violence that has become normalized under Trump's watch. I wouldn't underestimate how the actions and behaviours of even one person can influence what happens in the world.
Remember how that worked out for - oh, what's his name - Jesus of Nazareth??
Only now with social media it has become more immediate and pervasive. It all starts at the top.
@T I lived in Toronto for 22 years, some in the East end and I have friends who live near the Danforth. I've been to that area many times.
As a dual American-Canadian citizen, now living in my birthplace of New York, I completely agree with you. It is a disaster that the U.S.'s election structure anomaly allowed this unfit person to occupy the White House. I hope America will do much better in the coming elections and beyond.
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This is Trump's fault?
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Irrespective of motive or mental health, there are too many firearm deaths on both sides of the US-Canada border. Regrettably, I don't see an easy solution to reduce the number of firearms used in these city shootings.
The long-term approach will require restricted firearm ownership that will require SCOTUS to over-turn District of Columbia v. Heller.
Itinerant firearms resellers - like vehicle curb-siders, should be fined and jailed out-of-business, and storefront gun dealers that don’t follow the federal and state laws on firearm sales and registration should be suspended from buying and selling handguns and automatic military-grade weapons.
The refrain from the gun lobby, ‘guns don’t kill, people kill’, is a poor excuse to defend the literal interpretation of the 2nd amendment. There are few reasons to own a handgun and automatic weapons. Although the self-defence argument appeals to gunowners, there are extremely few people that need self-defence in the U.S. outside of the high crime and kill zones of inner cities.
Alleviate poverty and provide economic opportunities to young men in these ghettos would go a long way toward reducing crime, drug and firearms dealings in their neighborhoods.
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