New York Today: Will Green Roofs Get the Green Light?

Jul 18, 2018 · 21 comments
lucky13 (new york)
I would ask the accessibility chief to install more benches and/or shelters at bus stops. I think benches could be much less expensive than a whole bus shelter, so there could be more of them. I previously made a 311 request for a couple of bus shelters and I was told that the contract for bus shelters was used up and there would be no more bus shelters. By the way, sometimes I see the glass all shattered and destroyed at bus shelters. Why isn't the glass protected by wire mesh? Or is there some other material that could be used?
Pete in Downtown (back in town)
The solar panels on roof structures make sense, the wind turbines only in very special circumstances. Thanks to the wonders of geometry and aerodynamics, for wind turbines, size matters a lot (swept area goes by the square of the radius, so twice the radius or diameter - 2x radius means four times the area etc.) And, there aren't that many good places in the city to put large wind turbines, as they also make some noise. Completely missing from this concept is mandatory evaluation of cogeneration (heat and electricity) or even trigeneration (combine electricity generation with either heating or cooling by absorption chillers, depending on season and need) for all larger new buildings. All of these technologies significantly lower carbon emissions, and all of these are proven, long-established technologies that are readily incorporated into new buildings. Instead of just burning oil or gas to generate electricity and then burn more oil or gas for heating, you use oil or gas to first drive a gas turbine, generating power, and use the 300 F+ waste heat that comes out at the end to make steam or hot water. For larger buildings with sufficient space, combining one or two small- mid sized gas turbines with an absorption chiller can both generate electricity during high demand (summer), and use the waste heat to cool the buildings themselves. In the winter, you switch it back to make electricity and steam or hot water with the so-called waste heat.
Bob Robert (NYC)
@Pete in Downtown I totally second this. The most efficient gas power plants have an efficiency of 50%; many are much less efficient, down to 20%-30%. Unlike renewable generation, thermal generation (through cogeneration) makes sense onsite, because by using the “waste” heat from power generation you can be literally doubling the efficiency of power generation when you have heating needs. Heating needs that you pretty much always have: obviously in the winter, but all year long for hot water, for heating or hot water of neighboring buildings, or for cooling since there are proved technologies to transform the heat into cold (lot of air conditioning in Manhattan has been produced for years by the same facilities that produce heating in the winter). Even better: heat (and cold) can be stored easily (a simple water tank can store a lot of heat or cold for further use; other materials than water can be much more efficient), meaning that these facilities can be used to balance the intermittency of renewable energy: they can run full power when sun and wind are down, then slow down when wind and sun peak up while using stored heat or cold for the building’s needs. Decreasing the need for (very) expensive batteries. You’re also developing a local sector with lot of skilled labor: design of the turbines, programming of the control systems, maintenance of the system… Unlike when using China-made solar panels.
Leon Freilich (Park Slope)
CYCLER REASONING A two-wheeler ace Told me something I like: Buy a hundred-dollar lock And a fifty-dollar bike. I did as he said –Can't help reminiscing— Next day the bike was fine; The lock, though, was missing.
Jack Bush (Haliburton, Ontario)
@Leon Freilich Superb, Leon. One of your best.
matantisi (Brooklyn, NY)
It would be good to remember that not all people with access issues use wheelchairs. Certainly, an increase in available elevators would be wonderful, but there are other things that also need consideration? Who decides where bus shelters go, and where benches get placed? Even without shelters, more benches at bus stops would be a huge improvement, and I can't see why any subway station should be without benches.
Bob Robert (NYC)
Green roofs: virtually no impact on CO2 capture, poor insulation compared to artificial insulation, much more expensive to install (artificial insulation is cheap on a newbuilt). Also, bringing water to the 40th floor of a skyscraper to water a garden actually requires a lot of energy. Wind turbines: they are basically giant noisy fans. Your rooftop becomes unusable as a relaxing place (besides the fact that part of the roof needs to be fenced in), just to produce a few kilowatt-hours of power (small turbines are not efficient, especially when close to each other). Solar panels: the least bad of all options. But again, lot of space wasted for very little power produced in the end. Electricity is transported very easily, therefore there is no need at all to produce green electricity in cities where space is scarce (and maintenance more difficult) rather than miles away; it actually makes green power more expensive: the value of a rooftop can be in the 7 figures. And it creates new problems: a new construction next door shading you creates direct economic damage, hindering construction. Construction of new insulated housing where demand is is the real environment solution: it saves so much more energy in heating, cooling and transports. This is a stupid idea.
Freddie (New York NY)
“A sunset screening of “The Wizard of Oz,” with musical accompaniment by the Highline Chamber Ensemble’s jazz trio, at Prospect Park in Brooklyn. 7 p.m” (since a Judy Garland cue should never be overlooked; hope it’s not jazzed up TOO much!) Tune of “Over the Rainbow” Somewhere over in Brooklyn, near the 3, There’s a screening they linked here I must R.S.V.P. Somewhere over in Brooklyn, it’s all green. And the scene where the movie’s seen Looks bright and serene. At five, I’ll head out on my way To put some of my everyday behind me. But if some work is left undone Hey, I‘m okay that everyone Knows how to find me. Somewhere over in Brooklyn, such a high! Jazz and Judy in Brooklyn Under that Brooklyn sky. If questions come up, tell them I Am off to Brooklyn, but I will reply.
Allen J. Share (Native New Yorker)
Thanks for another great one Freddie, for the much-needed smile, and for the timely reminder of a great song and the equally great singer of it in that magical movie. Enjoy the show!!
Aaron (Brooklyn)
Forcing real estate developers to do more for the communities they develop in I think is a good thing. Not to mention attempts to offset the cost of the sheer money New Yorkers spend on air conditioning this time of year
credo (Miami)
A quarter pound burger costs us over 600 gallons of water to produce—never mind the amount of energy required for and greenhouse gases emitted in such a process. An incentive to reduce meat consumption would have a far larger impact on the environment than solar panels and wind turbines ever will.
Joanne Butler (Ottawa, Ontario)
It’s not a competition. We should and eventually will be doing all of these things to lower our carbon footprint, if we have any sense.
credo (Miami)
@JoanneButler Yes, but these actions are mostly inconsequential, if not counterproductive, which I suspect they are. As other posters have noted, it is far more efficient to generate electricity elsewhere, where land is cheaper and sun exposure greater. This green-roof legislation is more of a feel-good notion than an action which meaningfully moves us towards a greener future. It’s easy to slap some solar panels up above and call it a day; it’s much harder to change your day-to-day life.
Clifford (Cape Ann)
These efforts while laudable, offer little future impact beyond the immediate building host. A new building's SF energy impact will far exceed any rooftop reduction aided by sustainable add-ons. Far more energy costs are avoided by building zero net energy structures with on-site cogeneration and miserly core and shell components. While we ought to support all efforts to green up our buildings, be certain buying absolution will need to exceed the cost of a few solar panels or rooftop grasses.
PT (New York)
I am a landscape architect with special training in green roof design and use, green roofs have many benefits but large scale energy savings isn’t one of them. The primary non-beautification benefit is run-off reduction because they allow rain water filtration and retention, reducing the amount of rain going into sewers during deluges and allowing that water to evaporate back into the atmosphere; this is, in my opinion at least as important a “green building” measure as heat island reduction but Other measures are cheaper and more beneficial for those impacts. The other issue of course is lack of expertise in design and installation, but that’s another kettle of fish.
Pollutec Lyon (France)
@PT Interesting insight, PT. What other measures would you recommend for future building laws in New York? Do you know of any other cities with laws that are more practically effective? Thanks!
B. (Brooklyn)
Subway stations will never be completely wheelchair-accessible, just as national park trails will never be completely wheelchair-accessible, and just as some areas of Central Park and Prospect Park will never be. Some limitations just are. In the meantime, we have Access-a-Ride and a new service that's more like a taxi. I know, because a friend of mine who's blind uses it. Could Eric Adams also propose a database that will monitor bad tenants? Because a tenant of the apartment building across from me, a man well known to the other tenants, who stay far away from him and won't use the elevator if he's in it, belted me on the street last month. Someone on the block saw and told me, "He's crazy. He lives on the sixth floor." And finally: I am 100% in favor of wind and solar power and green roofs. But when the Russians hack into our electric grid, nothing will work: not our street lamps, nor our gas stations, nor our traffic lights, nor our water supply. Groceries will be undeliverable. And then our cities will explode, and the mayhem and murder that will take place will astonish all but the Eeyores of the world.
carol goldstein (New York)
@B. Access-a-Ride is essentially useless if you have stamina issues as my late husband did during the months of his terminal illness. The arival time for the vehicle is a wide window and you have to be at or near curbside during all that time, a difficult requirement for ailing apartment dwellers. Our one experience trying to use it was to have a green taxi pull up late already loaded with passengers with room for him and not me. (They are suppposed to accommodate a companion.) We called our reliable local car service and got to the outpatient clinic on time for his appointment but at the normal cost of $45. Others of more limited means would not be able to do that.
Lifelong Reader (NYC)
Thank you, B. I consider myself a pretty cynical person, but after reading one of your comments I always feel like Little Miss Sunshine. To ask disabled people to simply accept that they cannot use certain subway stations, to deny them the use of a common carrier, seems particularly callous.
B. (Brooklyn)
@carol goldstein You are right about Access-a-Ride, Carol; but this new taxi service that costs a fraction of a regular cab is wonderful. My friend who's blind is also terribly debilitated, but the new service goes a long way to addressing both issues. It might be that people don't know about it yet. Lifelong Reader: Yes, I know I seem cynical, even callous, but I'm also realistic. I do not foresee a time when all train stations will be wheelchair accessible. Our major subway stations are, though. Some people are on oxygen, which cannot be wheeled around our subway systems; some people have other disabilities and needs. It behooves all of us, their friends and relatives, to do whatever we can to make things easier for them. Some things, however, they just won't be able to do. Just as I cannot do the things I used to do. Just as my 99-year-old friend cannot. (And yet she tries to do what she can.) Disabled people who live in the suburbs, in which the car is king, are also compromised in their ability to get around. Maybe the problem is that too many are isolated from the sort of supporting players who can make their lives easier.
Meighan (Rye)
More green roofs would be a great thing for NYC. We need to do it in a way that does not unduly burden developers and homeowners but will add to the attractiveness of the building, both aesthetically and in a financial way. Go NYC show the Trump Administration that we know best how to care for the environment.