I don't understand why people still have such antiquated views. My husband does make more than me, but that's because I work part time and stay home with our kids. He was able to land a tenured teaching position. If I had been the one to get a tenured teaching position, he would have gladly been the one to work part time. And if I got some other job right now where I made more than him? He would be thrilled! More than double the income. Yay!
33
i think whatever couple can find solution who is responsible for what...in my family man makes money and woman helps and takes care of the house and kids
5
In our 20 years of marriage, I have consistently out-earned my husband and in fact completely supported the family in terms of finances for the majority of our marriage. We didn't plan it this way-- it just happened that my career took of as his was down-sized due to corporate restructuring. However, we are both vitaly important to our marriage, and neither our marriage nor our partnership would survive, and our children-- who have flourished with the work both of us have done,--are healthy and productive due to his willingness to pivot into the dominant child-care role in our family. I think we are both very lucky, as are our children, but I hope we can come to the time in which any person may claim their stay-at-home status without embarrassment.
41
Individually, there are many ways to love and people find what works for them.
What is interesting to me is how many of the married contributors apparently know exactly how much nicome each makes or made in relation to the other. What good memories and attention paid to a detail that many say doesn't matter.
It seems more as if this comparison did crop up maybe because it is so much apart of culture - cropped up, was evaluated in the light of their values and level of commitment to one another - and THEN labeled as something that doesn't matter.
3
My wife earns more than I do. I couldn't be more proud of her. The last year I worked part time, she made over 25 times what I made. I'm the poster boy for showing up at the right wedding!
59
Thought out our years together I have at times made more than my husband. Neither of us have a problem with that and when asked we both admit it. It would have been nice to do the research and then write there are couples who don't have a problem with this and those who do. Otherwise it is misleading.
6
I didn't read the article but I'd like to state that in my case, my wife makes around 25% more than I and I'm not afraid to admit it. I've even told my coworkers and family that she's the breadwinner in the family.
23
Excellent reason not to have a husband at all.
30
Men should embrace their natural capacity for love and humbleness. It is so liberating to be free of all social and cultural expectations and just be yourself. No matter how good a man is with tools, tools of the intellect or of the body, he is still just a man, and that is enough. That is true freedom. That is men's liberation.
28
I question the census findings and the article: nobody I know - cares which spouse, regardless of gender, earns more -
across generations.
13
I guess I'm the exception, then, as so many other commentators are (funny, that) I make twice+ what my husband does. I pay most of our bills while his money is basically spending money.
But yet, neither one of us are uncomfortable about it. Hes proud to have a successful strong woman for a partner, and I'm proud to have a masculine, strong man who is secure within himself.
We've been happily married for 15 years. I love and respect him for his strength of body and mind, as he does me.
Partnership is what makes a marriage work, not antiquated notions of gender roles. Any man secure in himself should be secure enough to have a wife that makes more than him.
I see a lot of equating correlation with causation (ie, women who make more divorce more - they arent reliant on anyone else to support them, so dont need to stay in an unhappy marriage, yet the article makes it sound like women making more are just unhappy in general *because* they divorce) in the article.
25
@raix You say that antiquated notions of gender roles aren't what make a marriage work, yet you reference qualities of your man "masculine, strong" and "strength of body" that are stereotypical for the male gender role. Men have traditionally been valued for strength, and today's gym-obsedded society seems to demand firm muscles from men. If he was a little feminine and thin, would you not love and respect him?
10
@raix Hi. Just want you to know there are plenty of women out here who make more than their husbands and neither are concerned about it. You're part of a great group of couples.
5
Women are more likely to cheat on a spouse that they don’t need or respect. Likewise, men are more likely to cheat on a spouse who is stay at home and has fewer options. The happy medium seems to be where the man out earns the woman but the woman earns enough to survive on her own, so there is respect but not dependency.
I think the fact that women have an easier time finding new partners makes them more likely to leave, hence why they need to respect their partners to stay with them. If they earn a lot more, they won’t respect them and that is borne out in the data. They simply have a better position in the partner market.
13
@Kenneth Women who think like this have no business using the word 'love' because that is not what they're feeling. It's calculated material benefit, not love.
14
@Tyler Hawkins the feeling of "love" is just chemicals in your brain telling you to partner with someone. These chemicals have no concept of right and wrong, they just convert instincts into feelings.
1
The notion that an unemployed man is not marriage material is true but not because he's not a good provider for the family. If a man doesn't have a job and isn't looking for a job or staying home to take care of his children then he's lazy. Who wants a lazy spouse? And yes I think the same goes for woman.
25
@Jennifer: Household labor need not only include children. I have also known couples where "Dad" provides childcare but little else toward the household in terms of chores, planning, etc. Essentially, babysitting rather than owning the scope of work involved in raising a child. Others (of all genders) follow spouses for their career and land in places without their field or have to downgrade substantially to work remotely. Retraining to become a truck driver or medical coder is not necessarily appropriate or in the best interest of the household to just avoid being "lazy". And yes, my context: I earn substantially less, work fewer hours (variable 15-30 versus 60+), and do much but not all of our household labor. One should be occupied; it need not be children or traditional 9-5 employment. Elderly relatives, community organizations, entrepreneurial efforts, homesteading, etc. Don't oversimply lives you aren't leading in places you don't live.
7
@Jennifer
Hi Jennifer as a stay at home dad who raised two children while my wife could take on duties as professor of medicine at Emory University I couldn't disagree with you more. I'm lazy because I don't want my kids in daycare all day? Just as women are not just sex objects , men are not just wallets. I know it's hard to see that in the Age of Trump, but we need to get to the point where we are all seen as parents , regardless of our employment status. A stay at home partner is just as important as a work outside the home partner.
33
@rherndo Reread her comment and you'll see she wasn't talking about stay at home dads. I see her point as a person who isn't contributing much to the household in any way, be it money, childcare or household chores.
My guess (my hope) is that this will be considered in the future be a quaint little article about a sociological turning point in our culture. GenX is probably the first generation where women were expected to hold jobs as couples married and/or had children later in life. I know very few women who haven't had careers, my wife included. We both work hard, but she just happens to earn more; her bonus this year was the equivalent of my entire salary. Fortunately for me, my masculinity isn't tied to my earnings (which seems to be the issue), and I think that's probably the way of our world going forward.
22
My wife did 23 years in the military. There was a time when I made more than her but as she moved up in rank and relocation caused me to change jobs her income surpassed mine. As I worked and cared for our two daughters she served overseas deployments but was able to earn a masters degree taking advantage of the programs the military provided. She now gets a pension and makes very good wages as a corporate manager. I do taxes four months of the year just to get out in the winter and pay a couple of bills. Her income is way more than mine but I have no shame and enjoy taking care of the house and pets. I even wear an apron when I am making bbq. Semi retired thanks to my amazing wife. She is away on business this week so I may have some guilt for riding my motorcycle, playing guitar and drinking beer watching the aIl star game while she is staying in a hotel room and attending meetings on the west coast. I need to do the dishes and scoop the litter box now. Gotta go.
65
My late wife made more than I did. We didn't care.
I was proud of her.
She was the better half, the smarter half.
61
Taking this study for what it worth; and marriage, based in love, has been around since, can we say, Adam and Eve? Extrapolate these attitudes to race relations. When we argue we do not have to do anything to counter attitudes, bias, prejudice, discrimination born of hate. This false "comfort" of what is, what we are used to runs deep and influences our every decision from where we live, who we associate with, who we interact with, hire, promote, judge, vote for...and we lie to ourselves saying "but that was in the past, it is no longer that way."
1
I would love it if my wife made more money than me, who cares who makes more? This is 2018.
8
That's all? 1.5-3% salary over/underreporting is the real surprise. (and my wife earns considerably more)
6
In my 30 year marriage I believe my husband was always annoyed that I didn't make more money. I don't know who he thought was going to raise the kids, care for the house, cook, shop, keep everyone's schedule, chauffeur for school, music lessons, sports....... I'm glad things are different for some of the millennials. Keep fighting ladies!
34
For years I earned more than my husband (me in the private sector, he in government) with no problem for either of us, but in the '60s when my mother was given a position whose salary was higher than what my father made at the time she actually asked them to keep her pay lower so she wouldn't make more than he did. And they both considered themselves feminists.
8
My daughter and son-in-law are three years married, in their very early thirties, and experiencing this phenomenon. They live in a major city. No children yet. Both have pursued advanced degrees and both recently completed them. She worked full-time as a nurse while going to school, and is now a nurse practitioner. He got his doctorate in the literary arts and has just begun a post-doc. He followed his bliss but is acutely aware how difficult it may be to find a professorial position. She out-earns him by 3x at least, and when she comes home at night exhausted, he has dinner ready. They respect each other. So far, so good!
15
My husband and I have been overtaking each other in earnings for some time - a product of meeting at University and both climbing the career ladder in a non-linear way.
Earning more than him has actually brought me a bit of satisfaction in the past. We're not competitive but I like the idea that I'm a woman who can demand a fair price for what I do.
Now though, he's unemployed and has been for 2 years. I'm not OK with being a sole earner but I'm patient. Meanwhile found the social pressure to convince him to get a job and leave him if he doesn't has been significant. It bothers me that it probably wouldn't be the same if it was me who was unemployed.
21
The author made a philosophical error. It is an epistemological question, not a metaphysical one.
7
As a wife who has almost always earned more than my husband (AND he has not cared a bit about that) I have not experienced this, but I can imagine the conflict. Case in point: My husband was in the Air Force before marrying me and was for a number of years a stay-at-home dad. While visiting a friend who was still in the AF, he was introduced to an officer at a party, who was quite drunk. This officer asked my husband what he did for a living. My husband said, quite casually, "I take care of my daughter." The officer became outraged: "What value do you have on this earth?! You should be ashamed! You're worthless!" And then he proceeded to challenge my husband and his friend to a fight. We are so far from a world where men are not stigmatized for not being the primary bread winner.
7
@Papaya It sounds like this was quite a while ago. And no, we're not that far anymore. Things have changed a lot. You should meet more young people.
1
This conundrum is silly. Women earning more than a man who happens to be her husband is to be feared? Who cares. There are many factors involved such as industries, education, ambition, what is good for the family and not the least is opportunity. My wife makes more money in our co-owned business which I run.
2
I out earn my husband, easily double, and that's just because I am in a high-paying, white-collar industry, and his work is traditionally contract with individual/non-corporate clients who have shallower pockets. But we both work hard/a lot. Of course it would be great if he made more, but not because he is a man -- but because who wouldn't want to be married to someone who makes a bunch of money? I'm pretty sure he feels the same and sheds no tears.
6
oh the fragile egos of men!
9
I am thrilled that my college educated wife makes more than my self-taught blue color self. It took years for her to finally earn what she deserves.
8
My wife earns more than me - I say it loudly and proudly!
7
Uh, no.
As husband, only to happy to have wife make more money.
More is more.
At age 69.7, I appreciate more.
12
As the son of dual career parents who were married for over 50 years, I'm amazed that this issue still exists as a problem. My parents were both professionals who worked for different departments in the same firm and at various times one and then the other was paid more. There was no feeling of envy on either one's part. They simply viewed promotions and increased salary as good for the family as it meant they could do more for me and my sibling. Perhaps because they both had the same level of graduate school education made it easier.
8
I notice that a lot of self-professed progressive, liberal (straight) couples still abide by a very traditional salary disparity and don't feel the least bit embarrassed by it. I'm curious how women who consider themselves dedicated feminists reconcile such income disparities, because it would seem such disparities would contribute to very traditional power differences in the relationship. Of course women should have income equality in the greater world, but what about very unequal power differentials in the home due to who makes the money? The good news is that gay couples have an undeniable advantage in that the role of "bread winner" cannot be gendered.
3
@tintin That's a strangely rigid mindset you've got about what money does.
Here's how it works: so long as a woman -- any partner -- is capable of supporting themselves and any children, then no, there's no power difference. One person just makes more money. What that person does with it is up to them. If that person wants to live lavishly and take the other along, and the other is okay with that, well, that's one decision; if the other person says, "no, I don't want to be paid for, thanks; here's what I can do, and you can live at this level or find someone else," then that's another.
Do you feel disempowered when out with friends who make more than you do?
4
I think that a few things have been missed here. The first is that in my experience being a provider is one of the main things a man brings to a marriage. Unfortunately, if a man is not succeeding at work, he rarely makes up for it in housekeeping, child-rearing and supporting the wife in non-financial ways. If he does, his efforts are not to the same standard as a woman’s. This is because he probably hasn’t had the training to do these things from his mother, he doesn’t see these things as valuable (hence the care-factor is low), and he knows that the woman will end up doing it all anyway when she gets home. Before we had children my husband thought that being a stay at home dad would involve going to the movies and playing tennis. Secondly, a lot of women want to be there for their kids. They want to see the first smile, their first steps, their first words, even if they also love their jobs. If you don’t have a chance to know and enjoy your kids, why go through all the trouble of having them? Thirdly, it is hard for women to succeed in the workplace given entrenched discrimination. Fourthly, women who earn significantly more than men are (unlike those who don’t work or earn less), in a financial position where they don’t need to put up with a non-performing spouse. They can afford to divorce, rather than grin and bear it. Fifthly, successful women have more to offer, so why not seek an equally or more successful man?
64
Honestly, who cares who makes more. I make more than my husband because I am in a high paying profession and he is not. Earlier in our marriage he made much more than me. I worked part time and did the kids. When the kids got out of grade school I went back to school and joined a high paying profession. When I started making money my husband went back to school and joined a low paying profession. C'est la vie !
17
I've been in three co-habitating relationships. In each one, I out earned my male partner. We never discussed our earnings. What's noteworthy is that in each relationship, even though I earned double what the man made, the man always treated his job as though it was much more important than mine, and his work schedule and job concerns were always emphasized over mine. Yes, it's all anecdotal, but perhaps this is one way that lower earning men compensate for their female partners' higher wages.
57
Except for a brief period years ago, I've always earned quite a bit more than my husband, who is now retired. I didn't think it was a problem. I was wrong. Though it turned out to be one of a raft of issues that came to light when he was involuntarily retired, the "money thing" cannot be discounted. Working through it is hard and time consuming. I never had a problem with the discrepancy, but he did - and does.
16
Wow, is this really important? Get over it. Just do your best. Sometimes I earned more, sometimes my wife earned more. We were both professionals. She had a graduate degree, I had a BA and certificates. Few times we were between jobs. She likes to talk about what I do, to my consternation. People don't need to know what I do. Save first, cover your costs and invest the rest, in that order. We are living, in this, our third home we bought together over 25 years ago. We retired with a net worth in excess of $2 million, about half in cash. I still have a small consulting business. Raised two kids. I was more of a risk taker, she not so much. I started businesses and bought a bunch of properties and flipped them. She would have a cow when she learned what I did. Sometimes we discussed what risks I was taking, most times not (though, she still talks too much about it). She doesn't know about a fishing boat that I was a part owner that disappeared after the Fukushima tsunami. Doesn't matter. It all ended up in the same joint accounts anyway. Taxes paid, kids are taken care of. Now, I just want one more property, if the numbers pencil out.
4
In what you are describing, the scary thing is that you keep her in the dark about things like owning part of a fishing boat...
7
@CMK
That part about keeping something "secret" is interesting. I am not so sure that a lot of people, both male and female, in relationships where almost everything is shared, don't feel a need to have some part of their financial life under their own oversight.
I don't mean situations where they go broke because one is racking up debts or losses unbeknownst to the other.
I would be curious to know how common it is that any partner has some savings, or investment or private stash of cash that the other partner is unaware of.
3
@cheryl As I am pretty anonymous here I will tell you that we have three joint checking accounts. The main account where my paychecks, Social Security and annuity payments go. It is used to pay for mortgage, utilities, taxes, insurances and household expenses. The secondary account pays for other costs and is primarily for other household and irregular costs that my wife controls with her pay, SS and pension. The third joint account is for payments from investments, real estate, etc. We rarely draw from that account and it has the most cash. Joint CDs are laddered so one matures every three months and rolls over unless there is a need for the money. We both keep individual personal accounts and I have a business account in addition. The system kind of grew organically as we needed. We used to reconcile these accounts together but kind of stopped doing that. I grew up poor and I keep my worth out of sight as a protection from covetousness, sorry.
I earned multiples of what my husband earns and he has a very admirable job. If marriages are failing it's not because the wife is making more than than the husband, it's because they don't truly see each other as equal partners. You can't sum up your marriage by quoting your individual AGI.
31
I think it's a little weird how there's this unstated but pervasive assumption the article that this is a problem with what men think...but then the article spends basically the whole time talking about how women deal with it - how they pretend to assuage the guilt of their menfolk, etc etc. It would have been more interesting if the article had looked at men in a less passive way, and actually investigated what they think and how they negotiate the situation, not just how women cope with their egos.
And then we find out rather jarringly at the end that it isn't just about what men think - that women judge men without good careers pretty harshly too (shocking!). So it's not just men beating up on themselves while their wives try to convince them it's not a big deal - it's a big deal to a lot of those wives as well.
12
My partner, and children’s father, is a struggling artist. My salary covered our family’s expenses for over a decade. Friends, family and even acquaintances made terribly disrespectful and derogatory comments about me choosing to support my man. It didn’t matter to them that we loved each other, or that he was pursuing his life calling. What mattered to them was that they thought he should be making more money and tried to convince me I was being exploited. I eventually had to find new friends, and stayed by the side of my broke artist partner. But these mean comments did hurt us. Maybe they were also racist because I am white and my partner is black.
23
I have no issues with my wife earning more $$$ than me and no issues with proclaiming it to the world. And my wife doesn't have any issue with the fact that I earn less. She is very excited, engaged and in love with her career. She takes great pride in what she does, and she is very happy. I'm very proud of her success, and extremely happy that she's happy.
30
@6strings Sincerely, ya'll are a model of a healthy relationship -- kudos!
3
I have a PhD (which I mention here because it took years to complete and I still have modest debt) and 11 years service on the faculty at my university. My wonderful and industrious wife has a BA and three years service on staff here. Earlier this year she got a raise and now out earns me. This change has not been easy for me. Surely sex/gender, status, and the corporatization of universities with its attendant ills, are all in the emotional mix. Still, I'm not a "bloke". I have done about half the housework throughout our marriage. My wife has outearned me in past years, and it didn't disturb me then. But this time I can't help feeling like a complete "loser" (I hear Trump saying it). Boy did I pick a bad era to be a scholar; I should have been a PR guy or a social media engineer or maybe a reality TV star!
9
There was some 2012 polling showing that the less education a man had, the more likely he was to say that the man should be the sole or main breadwinner. Nearly 60 % of men who didn't finish high school, but only 25 % of college educated men, thought so. The same tendencies were present among women, though to a lesser extent.
I suspect these are the guys who are turning to Trump or opiates or both in their frustrations, instead of trying to upgrade their skills.
19
During our pre-Cana interview with my minister, my then-fiance was asked "what would you think/do if Laura got a big promotion and began to out-earn you." His response: "She already does, and I think it's great! It takes some of the pressure off me." Thankfully, my husband has maintained his attitude for the entirety (thus far) our our 25-year marriage. Honestly, I was less surprised at my husband's attitude than my minister's assumption that I was the lower-earning partner, and that I would need a "big promotion" to be the higher-earner.
24
When my wife and I were married 44 years ago I was 37 and she was 21; it would have been bizarre if she’d made more money, and she didn’t. However, she closed the gap steadily over the next 22 years until our pay was essentially equal. At that point she got a job offer in another city with a substantial increase. I retired and took over the housekeeping and since then she’s made much more than I (since my share of the family income is from Social Security, a couple of smallish pensions, and the RMDs from my IRA). I’ve never had a problem with it.
12
@David Hulan Kudos to you for your marriage. I am in awe and bow to you, sir.
2
My wife and I have been together since freshmen year in college. Before we graduated I remember a momentary sense of dread thinking about what it would be like if my wife made more than me after we graduated. I realized thought that her income would be whatever it was and that it had no impact on my own so if my wife were to make more then me then great, more money for both of us.
As it turns my wife earns more than me most years. I have no problem admitting that.
7
Admit it to whom? Lying on the census is "not admitting it"?
I earn double the amount my husband earns; it's a complete non-issue between us, and it is no-one else's business.
15
My wife and I have swapped "primary wage earner" titles a few times. During her most recent "primary" stint I was able to put an unrealistic amount into my now imminent retirement fund (six more months). Neither of us ever had a problem with who "won." While we have yours, mine, and ours accounts, it is still one single "pocket."
5
Human males are evolved to be the providers and protectors while females mothered - bore and cared for offspring. For males to be providers and protectors, they faced increased threats and stress from the outside world. At day's end, males would come home, hopefully, to a loving family of his mate and offspring. His family motivates him to face those dangers of the outside world. Furthermore, the love he receives from his family - especially his mate - rewrites his personality including causing him to be monogamous as his real love for her mitigates his strong instinctive polygamous nature. His very identity as a male changes to being HER protector and provider as he feels she needs him and that creates a sense of stability in their relationship.
Now, females are equal providers and protectors. Instinctively, a male can perceive that his female will not need him and may leave him devastating him with losing his family and identity of being HER protector and provider.
If the situation was reversed, it should not be a problem, but it is for males because they are evolved for that role above and not as mothers.
I don't want to come across as a caveman. I am a devout feminist and my wife makes more than I do very often and I have no problem with that. At the same time, there is still a deep instinctive fear of losing her because I don't have anything she needs that she can't provide for herself. If I lose my wife, I lose myself.
27
@VJRW wow men are so fragile!
1
@VJR, as long as you're discoursing on evolutionary biology with nary a credential or citation, don't discount women's "strong instinctive polygamous nature." Or is it that women simply seek an intellectual, cultural and interpersonal equal, and those may well be linked to income?
5
@VJR It's sad to hear that you don't think you have anything to offer your wife other than money. I bet if you ask her, she'd say you bring much more than that to the table.
I'm also willing to bet that in the 21st century the majority of couples marry for reasons other than the money one or both people can provide. In fact, I think that the at-home moral support and companionship element of a marriage that you've identified, which enables one or both partners to go out into the world and earn a living knowing that their spouse has their back and will be waiting for them at the end of the day no matter what, is what most people seek in a partner these days. I bet your wife appreciates that about you at least as much as she appreciates your income.
7
Someone once said that men without work of some sort are ridiculous. I agree.
9
my wife makes more than I do and I loooove to sing her praises.
She deserves every bit of her success!
10
We have been married since 1978. My wife, an exceptionally hard-working and intelligent information specialist and researcher, has always earned more than me, an attorney now working for the government after a career as a private attorney in general practice. Neither she nor I have ever felt any reluctance, when the subject came up, to express this fact. I don't get it. I am quite proud that my wife is accomplished and successful, and am happy to have the benefit of her good income.
7
My dad was a university professor and my mom was an anesthesiologist. Both reasonably prestigious professions, but by the late 70's/ early 80's, Mom made a LOT more money than Dad. I don't remember any discord or embarrassment in our house about it. They didn't share their salary numbers with us kids, but we understood that it was due to Mom's job that we were able to afford things like musical instruments, family trips, and fancy out-of-state colleges without scholarships.
(And in a sign of the times, when we were small, Dad-the-professor used to drive us kids 15 minutes each way to the hospital and back, so that Mom-the-doctor could give us a bath. In the late 60's nobody thought this was unusual; not sure if it would fly today.)
17
My Ex. and now my girlfriend both earned more than I did in my working years. Get over yourselves guys. I never had a problem with it.
3
No one really has to “get over it” as it is a non-issue. It’s just a silly article. It would only be the odd nutcase that would ever have a problem here and that is borne out in most of these comments.
2
“Yet expectations about men have been slower to change. When men are unemployed or underemployed, women are less likely to consider them marriage material, and more likely to want a divorce.”
This will never change because, biologically, men offer nothing but the ability to perform work. Men who do not work are essentially adult sized children that need taking care of. Why would anyone who is responsible and motivated enjoy taking care of a man child?
37
Men can raise children, keep the house clean, cook, run errands and do other things to support a working spouse. These things are technically work, just unpaid. I know many men who do these things.
31
Ha! Adult sized children who need to be taken care of. Funny, and often true.
4
Men's egos have led to almost all the wars throughout history. The fragile egos of many men, and the damage that results, is epitomized by the man who currently occupies the White House. The many cracks in President Trumps eggshell thin ego continue to cause havoc in this country and throughout the world. I disown any kinship with him and any other man who would heap abuse on others.
After my first marriage ended in a divorce, I would have gladly welcomed a relationship with a woman who earned more than I did. It didn't happen, but the woman who has been my life partner for over twenty years is emotionally strong and firm in her character and resolve. I wouldn't have it any other way
8
My wife and I looked at the graphic of women's shoes used to "illustrate" this story. Neither of us could believe that, in this day and age, the NYT would really imply that women who make more than their husbands spend their money on shoes! The women WE know spend "their" money on house payments, car payments, child care, college education for their children, retirement savings ALONG with their husband's salary. Life has many ups and downs... husbands and wives "support" each other thru it all.
38
@Gary Misch
I think the illustrator portrays both men's and women's shoes here. A visual play on the expression "if the shoe fits, wear it", implying that both women and men are equally capable at landing high-earning jobs and at taking on the role as the 'primary earner'
2
I'm bothered by the author's use of the word "admit" which suggests not only shame but that it is justified. The right word is "acknowledge." LGBT folks know the word "admit" is judgmental, and "acknowledge" is not. The title of this article should not imply that there is anything wrong with the woman earning more.
21
This is silly to generalize people like this and in turn sort of contribute to the problem. No women I know would agree with this. I currently make more than my husband and its of little matter to either of us.
4
Two quick thoughts:
Only a sick and depraved society would equate making money with being manly.
What are the IRS and the Census doing comparing anything? Those records are supposed to be confidential. No wonder there is little trust in government.
5
You know what’s awesome? Being able to pay your bills. Peace of mind is priceless.
28
never bothered me.
3
Wow! Nothing would make me happier than if my wife made more than me. A lot more, and could retire sooner.
Want to tell me how to spend your money? Good luck with that. It don’t work that way now, that’s for sure. Fragile egos? Get a life, loser!
Going back to that old song from the 60s, “First I Look at the Purse,” and of course, from the 70s, “Won’t be Fooled, Again.”
3
When you are in a same-sex marriage, you realize exactly how ridiculous all of this kerfuffle is. Who earns more/who does more housework/who mows the lawn? Irrelevant.
9
@raisedeyebrows Congratulations to same sex couples and your more equitable distribution of housework:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/upshot/same-sex-couples-divide-chores...
Unfortunately for the rest us who haven't yet learned to be more enlightened and more equitable it's still a big bone of contention.
6
I've never been in any conversation with a couple and discussed who made more money. The article looks more agenda driven than any form of real journalism.
4
I guess I am not the norm. No problem with my wife making more than me ... please make more than me! HeHe.
In changing times, the typical mindsets and norms should change. Two income households, working from home, benefits, healthcare, etc. All of these are different than 20 years ago.
Women are in the workplace, kicking butt and taking names. Pay them and make more money.
10
Interesting findings!
As a man who now earns 30 percent what his wife currently earns, I’d like to suggest a few ideas from what we have learned. (We have adult children and want them to inherit a better culture on these topics.)
First, the term “the breadwinner” is a deeply flawed notion. In a 40-year marriage, the “primary wage-earner” has flipped, flopped and twisted thru life stages to unrecognizable degrees. My job was of critical value in some stages. My wife will tell you I handled 90 percent of household work and childcare for one of the decades. (I loved it!) We never had his/her accounts. Please deepen and enrich the terms, questions and foci of future research. Simplistic terms entrench the gender distortions. And help create some of the pressures men feel. Those are real, too, as the “lying” shows.
Second, our marriage has focused on egalitarianism. Our goal was, from the second date, the full potentiation of each partner. How can he do what his gifts call for? What is the highest use of her strengths? What can we do to get these, together?
Third, we are deeply religious and believe the world has screwed up “pricetags” —low wages go to critically important tasks (eg. Teachers, etc) and “partner switching” is “nuetral.” In reality, it’s a whole other order of magnitude difference to say “one partner, for life; now what?”
Thanks for opening this conversation. Who will push it deeper and bring richer findings and meanings for our children and grandchildren?
6
Why don’t I ever get included in these surveys? My girlfriend(s) (I’m single) in Manhattan have always been filthy rich. I was happy to pay for dinners / drinks because I like to treat and make a good dining experience but often we went Dutch or they treated and it was so cool. I knew I wasn’t being taken advantage of, because she could do just fine without me and my tech salary (not bad, but the rent is still too damn high).
Of course, waitstaff always put the check by me, although I have seen it get better (placed in the middle).
So I would make it a point to tell the server that my date was the one with the money and it didn’t affect me, my masculinity, or any of that nonsense.
In fact it was quite the thrill.
C’mon guys, relax. Your money earnin, lover, date, spouse is with you because she actually likes you.
Consider yourself pretty dang lucky.
18
Interesting article. I would encourage anyone interested in this to make time to read the study.
There's a lot of discussion of data collection and how the regression was built, along with some interesting charts at the end that suggest there may be some variance in the extent to which a reporting gap exists in various population attributes (such as income decile). This is relevant, since it certainly is possible that a majority of couples report income accurately, with the gap driven very large reporting gaps in a minority of couples surveyed.
Overall (and without looking at the raw data), it looks like there is support for the existence of this reporting gap.
Still, a more accurate (but less click-generating) title might have been "when wives earn more than husbands, there's a little fudging at the margins, but by and large they admit it".
One thing about journalists - whether they lean left or right, they are biased in terms of finding "the story", which means when a survey suggests a difference between men and women, you can count on journalists to write much stronger headlines than are justified by the data.
6
Why is anyone’s business what either spouse makes?
3
Most of the women I know are in higher level positions that their husbands and making far more money....and those relationships definitely have a 'sell-by' date....
2
I retired a few years ago, my wife still works and has a very good job. Of course she makes more money than me, Big Deal!
Only in America would this be front page news.
3
What the heck is wrong with people. I had no idea these stereotypes were so strong. I’m the second generation in my family to outearn my partner by 100% (my sister does too); my mom earned triple what my dad did; and no one ever comments, and I had never heard it could be a source of shame. Where on earth are men and women getting these messages?
11
It's about power. She who has the larger wallet has more power. Like leaving the marriage. In the good old days, women stuck in there with lousy marriages because of the money. Those days are gone. Women are more free to do and spend as they please. This terrifies men.
36
Why should we care which spouse makes what? If your female spouse makes more be grateful and proud.
3
I don’t like how the author says ‘gender norms are violated’ if a woman earns more than her male partner, as if earning more is a negative. In my opinion it’s aboyt what I can provide for my kids, not how I can provide for a mans fragile ego.
5
A lot of comments from people who say "never applied to me": well, isn't that just peachy. Nothing like denying a problem (a la CEO corporate weasel talk when confronted with wrongdoing in their company: "this is not the company I know" etc.). When the WSJ did a similar story on women earning more in the higher echelons of corporate America, none of the husbands of female CEOs or senior executives were willing to be interviewed, even without being named. That silence tells you all you need to know.
29
I think women who earn more should be applaude by their husbands instead of resented. Traditional roles are changing all over the place. I have seen a rise in men doing all of the child care and earning all of the money, particularly while their wives are in New Zealand researching feathers.
1
If a woman feels that a man cannot protect her, physically or economically, she will not be sexually attracted. Lack of need undermines this attraction. Women’s lack of confidence is an important part of being sexually attracted to a confident man.
How many of the wives touting their happy female-dominant marriages here are in fact not aroused by their husbands and are sleeping with another man they regard as stronger and more successful?
16
@Charlierf
I'm a successful single female who also happens to be physically strong. I do end up being attracted to very strong fit men (physically). I don't really look at income, since it's irrelevant to me since I have mine. It is hard to find men to date. And often if I date less fit men or men from lower wage jobs, they admit to being intimidated by me.
1
It's not all conscious attitudes; some of it is biological. All young men are driven to demonstrate dominance behavior, where they fight or demonstrate wealth to establish their place in a social hierarchy. This is in common with all other male social mammals. Women are attracted to men who demonstrate dominance, wealth and status, like other female social mammals. Sure, we're no longer on the savannah, and we have conscious brains that contribute to the choices that we make, but to ignore the emotional contributions of the subconscious parts of our brain is foolish. We don't have to follow those impulses that drive men to demonstrate dominance and women to be attracted to the dominant men in the tribe, but those impulses will be there, and they will have an effect. Any marriage of a high status woman to a lower status man has some biochemical baggage to overcome. That will affect the statistics.
4
@Tom But your answer assumes that the lower status of the male is a function of his earnings. That's so often just not the case. Lots of women (I'm one) earn more than their husbands but still consider him a person of great status because his work is extraordinary. The job title and salary is secondary to the actual work output. Society is full of examples where positions with great intellectual status have lower pay than other kinds of jobs that are less interesting. It's really important to avoid measuring status with money.
This said, I suspect men actually do this more than women, and women may indeed fib a bit about the situation, not because they care but because they feel the man cares.
8
I’ve always had this “power behind the throne” drive to make my mates (all male) be successful. What I didn’t make clear was that I expected a share of the glory.
And, expected reciprocal, and sincere, cheers & support from them for my own creative endeavors. None were forthcoming. And, I just didn’t have the emotional foundation when I was younger to be willing to go it alone.
Take some advice from a failure. If you’re not in a partnership with someone who buoys you up as much as you do for them, someone who listens to your dreams, your aspirations, and sincerely wants to help you achieve them: RUN!
Making your dreams secondary to your partners success always ends badly.
26
Ever since women have come in to the workplace in larger and larger numbers, and as they rise in the workplace, they very often do not want to marry a man who makes less than them. This creates a greater concentration in wealth and is not good for society.
2
@Joe Yes, let's blame the concentration of wealth on women. Because of course it's not, say, oligopolistic policies enacted by (mostly-male, for the record) Congress and courts. *eye-roll*
6
interesting thing not pointed out by the author, women who earned more than their husbands, over inflated their husband's salaries more more than men who made less then their wives. seems the women were more embarrassed about making more than their husbands than men are about making less than their wives.
1
@JJ Don't really agree, I think (as one of them) that these women are often just doing it because they know it makes the guy uncomfortable.
1
@Leila Schneps Glad to see female emotional aggression broached in a discussion of gender roles and attitudes.
I've always found it interesting that single women always expect to marry a man who earns more money than them. This is true even of women who earn six figures. Only when women earn around 500K a year or more do they adapt a more realistic attitude regarding their potential husbands' income.
1
I make between 2 and 3 times my husband, and always have (14 years of marriage, he has a typical blue-collar job, I'm college educated). Why care about it. We split the chores probably 40/60 (he does more I think). We both clean and do laundry, I cook/shop, do all the finances/taxes, and cart the child around, he does most yard work, all home repair, and all car work (old cars, it's a lot of work). Mostly split along typical gender rolls except the housework. We each prefer our choices and help the other when necessary or asked. We never even have had to discuss these things. I think the key is that he fully participates at home, unlike some men you hear about. Frankly, if he wanted to be a stay-at-home dad that would be fine with me, but he likes to work too, and it is a relief to know that if I'm ever laid off we'd at least have some income in the meantime. My income allows our family to save more, live in a nice school district, and go on moderate vacations once a year, why would any real man have a problem with that?
Also, we met on match.com, and he must have known from my listed career that I made much more than him, it didn't stop him from contacting me. And I certainly didn't need to car about his income, other that that he *had* an income. Regarding another comment that women don't put their education/career on their profile in order to not risk putting off some men, I say *do* put it on there, it's a easy way to weed out the men who you don't want anyway.
12
I am an engineer and I didn't want to marry a doctor because they make more money and a have higher status. But, I did want to marry a girl who was equal to me. I know many will accuse me of being sexist, but in my opinion, I was pragmatic. I want women to have equal rights, but not at the expense of anyone to live freely. By the way, we have been happily married for 46 years.
1
@Jack Would you marrying a doctor have prevented anyone from living freely?
5
Who cares who earns what? It's a partnership. And it can change. When we moved in together after college, I earned and my wife went to grad school. Then she earned and I went to grad school. Then I earned and she earned much less while doing art. Now she earns way more than me, even while still doing her art, thanks to part time work for a tiny company turning into full time work for the same company, but much larger. Why would I care that she earns more? If she didn't, we couldn't afford to send our kids to the schools they go to, not on my income.
4
This article once again makes me so thankful for my husband who has never had a problem with me being the primary breadwinner and has always been amazingly supportive of me in that role.
7
@Sarah I am right there with you. Some of the comments too!
5
So proud of my wife for earning more than I. She has worked diligently and consistently improved her education so all her earnings are well deserved. A marriage is team work and the if we the home team win then we celebrate together.
8
I'm sure there are those insecure, immature people, both men and women, who care which one earns more than the other. My wife and I talked at length about potential issues, including this one, that may come up in a marriage. We both wanted to be certain that our partners were mature, thoughtful grownups before we married. We were both just over 30, and for both of us it was a second marriage. We lived together for a couple of years, so we had plenty of opportunity to bare our hearts and souls, our finances, and the depth of our experiences, ethics and character, before making that real commitment of marriage. We decided we were ready to try it one more time. We've been together now for about forty years, and never once regretted the decision.
We've both, at one point or another, made more money than the other. Neither of us care who makes how much, only that collectively we have enough to have a life, and a reasonably comfortable lifestyle. Allowing mere money to matter so much that it influences our self-respect is to her and I just absurd. We never endeavored to become wealthy, only to have enough. She and I both feel sad for those who measure themselves, their partner or others, by how much money they make.
6
My wife has always earned more than I - and her job provides us with excellent healthcare coverage as well - for which I am very grateful --
We maintain separate bank accounts (my suggestion) - and whenever I refer to "her money" she is always quick to correct me with "OUR money" --
Neither of us cares who knows - it's certainly not a secret amongst our circle of friends, colleagues and family members - mainly because we don't define ourselves through our finances...
10
I find this so strange. I am in my mid-30s. Wives out-earn their husbands in the vast majority of couples in our social circle (mostly mid-level professional types) and no one hides it, is ashamed of it or finds it strange.
9
I commend those who commented below who call themselves a team, and earning money shared between them.
Clearly the term "iron clad prenup" was never brought into discussion.
I'm not concerned about whether one earns more than I do, I am concerned about joint bank accounts and who gets what in the divorce settlement. I've been privy to too many sad stories.
4
The census is meant to just count people for purposes of apportioning representatives in Congress. It has expanded to ask other questions, but constitutionally, people are only required to answer the question about the number of people in the household. For geneaology research, the census is a cool thing, but it’s not always accurate. Comparing IRS info with census info - well, the ethics of it is up for debate, as well as the validity of the numbers. Our IRS forms are supposed to be confidential, as are the census forms — for 70 years.
9
@K - According to the linked study, the Census Bureau obtained the income data from Social Security in the form of the Detailed Earnings Report. This doesn't make it more ethical but instead provides a reason why people would decline to participate in the census.
The population data also brings funding for communities so it is very important that accurate participation ensues.
@K
Census data IS confidential. Some are asked to complete the American Community Survey [ACS], which which collects more extensive data than the short form Census report. "Income questions originated with the 1940 Census, as a way to understand the financial situation of Americans in the wake of the Great Depression. ... they were transferred to the ACS in 2005 when it replaced the decennial census long form."
"The Census Bureau is legally bound to strict confidentiality requirements and we never reveal your identity to anybody else. When you respond to the [ACS], your individual records are not shared with anyone, including federal agencies and law enforcement entities. By law, the Census Bureau cannot share respondents' answers with anyone, -- not the IRS, not the FBI, not the CIA, and not with any other government agency.
All Census Bureau employees take an oath of nondisclosure and are sworn for life to protect all information that could identify individuals. Any employee who violates the provisions of the oath is subject to a fine up to $250,000 or a prison sentence up to 5 years, or both."
SSNs are NOT taken. To see the income questionnaire: https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/acs/about/qbyqfact/2016/Income.pdf
Collecting data to create a picture of our society and to use in planning, and allocating federal assistance in myriad programs is needed. As for accuracy - that is reliant on people performing their civic duty by responding to the Census.
I was happy when my wife was earning more than I was.
6
It's also curious that college-educated while white non-Hispanic men and women in hetero marriages are more likely than their African-American counterparts to espouse egalitarian beliefs, but hetero African American families are more likely to actually practice more egalitarian arrangements, not only with respect to dividing domestic labor, but also in assigning chores to children.
10
I rarely talked to my father about my relationship with my wife, but one day I shared with him that my wife and I were fighting a lot...He looked at me and said, "Let me give you some advice, don't fight so hard, she makes more money than you do."
I took his advice and stopped fighting...
19
While a woman may make more it does not preclude the man making enough to support a family. In our family either one of us could support the family. Of course, we are also content to live within our means, which includes robust savings.
3
The contradicting voice that demands her man make more than her while protesting that she doesn't earn enough must be a source of great stress.
Pay gap is stopping me from getting the money I deserve.
Pay is stopping me from getting the man I want.
1
@Charlie L. Sadly, there's some truth to this, despite the healthy (and lucky) couples that are writing in in these comments.
My wife makes more money then me and I'm very proud of her! I like smart women and smart women are going to be successful. If a man wants his wife to be not so successful then there are other issues that need to be addressed.
10
Today is my 36 wedding anniversary. For the first 8 years we were married I earned significantly more than my husband; had two babies and even when our salaries equalized right around the time I had our 3rd child it was never an issue. I loved my job and we were partners. We were able to save for the future during those early years, and are now able to reap the benefits. He was always very proud of my contribution. No shame ever!!!
2
I know commenters are going to criticize women for being shallow for wanting men who with lucrative jobs—and that certainly applies to some women. But one reason I would be afraid to date someone who made significantly less than me is because I know the man would react poorly. I go to a very selective law school—the men on Tinder from my school advertise that information all over their profiles and it helps them get dates. The women routinely hide it because men make constant negative comments about it, even after the woman has already matched with him (and so has indicated her interest). It gets boring to get asked half compliments/half taunts about whether we think they’re “too good for them,” when all we’ve done is say hi. Thankfully I found a partner who is mature and doesn’t need those constant reassurances.
41
@Elizabeth Having had a similar experience, it may narrow your dating pool, but at least you're weeding out insecure men early-on.
4
I have been on a lot of dates over the past few years and I am amazed at how many men get bothered by a smart well earning woman. The gentleman I am currently dating loves that I make more. He and I alternate who is going to pay for which date, and love the balance. There are a lot of traditional roles we still enjoy such as I do most cooking and he looks after my car.
9
My wife is a lawyer and I am a public school administrator. I am happy she makes more money because it allows me to have a job I love that does not pay as well as the private sector. We derive much satisfaction from the work we do, not just the financial compensation.
29
I would suspect that in at least some of these couples, the men really do earn more - they're just not telling the IRS.
Among the low-earners, it is common for the woman to have an official job with benefits, while the man works off the books at informal jobs.
In order to test this theory, you would have to look at the levels of income being reported. If it is mostly concentrated in lower-income couples, then I would compare total spending to reported total income.
4
I'm not sure how you can survive and be competitive with children these days without combined income.
My wife has always made more than I do, it's about a 60/40 split, and we're both grateful for one another's contribution to our families warchest.
Insecure men need to get with the times - I'd rather be humble than poor.
95
No need to be "humble" - if your wife makes more, you should be "proud"! What good wife picking!
2
I am a retired woman. I earned more than my husband. That was not a problem, he seemed proud of it. (He has passed, so is not able to enjoy my more prosperous retirement) I was college educated, he was not. Likewise my daughter-in-law earns twice as much as my son, both went to grad school. He teaches at a small college, she is a pharmacist. They have been married 11 years, no marriage difficulties. My son brags about what they can afford due to her larger income.
A generous sole helps make “equality”. A solid marriage helps. Confident partners in a solid partnership helps.
20
@DRE Sorry for your loss (husband passing).
I earn quite a bit more than my husband, and I don't think either of us would ever lie about that. I know he wishes he could match my salary so that we could save more and do better as a family, but it's never hostile.
We're very lucky to be secure in ourselves and each other, and I'm grateful to have a husband who doesn't feel emasculated with a successful woman by his side. Quite the contrary: he's proud of me.
11
My husband never finished college. Blue collar worker, union employed, supported him through various employment categories. Now ready to retire with a pension, annuity, SS and IRA's. Me, two post graduate degrees, professional license, worked in various settings, suffered buyouts, acquistions,mergers, termination, academia issues. Still I am gainfully employed and have made more income for the last 15 years. My money is his, and his mine. He couldn't be where he is now today without my support, or I without his. Our education level never an issue. He is smart on many levels. Although my MIL did not understand it. Together 30 years. Many of his union buddies are jealous, a wife that makes more, and financially independent that's their fantasy.
51
I suspect many of the 70% of people that prefer men support their family, actually have a more nuanced opinion: that the man contributes significantly to supporting the family. I know too many men that are underemployed, voluntarily, with very stressed spouses. I am one of them. Our incomes don’t need to be equal, but the lack of effort is soul crushing and makes us financially stressed. That leads to divorce, though not as much as his bad attitude and constant criticism of me and the kids.
And others I know in similar situations have spouses that cheat, or have mental issues, and the wife tried for years to carry their family but was crushed by the burden.
And lastly, we all know most women are paid less for similar work, so to be responsible for bringing home the bacon is doubly challenging.
58
@Janie Bluebeard, you are not alone. I made more than my ex-spouse and his expectations adjusted to that quality of life but his effort did not increase. He acted as if he were a breadwinner outside of the home and did nothing inside the home. The burden on me was crushing, not to mention the constant criticism. Guess what? Economic freedom for women means that when there is a great imbalance, you can divorce. I was willing to be the breadwinner but I wasn't also willing to be the homemaker. It's too much FOR ANYONE.
Dating? I am quick to pay for my portion once appropriate as I want to be treated as an equal and I explain why. Having the man pay for everything does very little to further equality. Gender roles hurt us all.
11
Daniel Mozes is right, this issue of gender roles is critical to our modern society. This issue which maybe partially genetic and underlies many of problematic issues of the day. As our economy has quickly evolved to a knowledge base reward system, women have benefited. This can be seen in the higher rates of college degree attainment, but at the same time traditional roles have not evolved, and in my perception are stagnate. This can be summed up in 2 popular statements.
The educated women say's, "I want someone I can talk to". Translated this is someone roughly there equal, and economics is the rough barometer.
The educated man say's, "I compete at work I don't want to compete at home". Translated you have your roll and all have mine.
So this results in all kinds of disparities and cultural issues.
If I were a researcher on this topic the first thing I would investigate would be women of color (Latino, Black) with college degree's and middle class jobs and marriage/divorce rates. This is only because of the wide disparity between males and females of color with college degrees and middle class jobs. The question would be how is this issue affecting these cultures are they evolving?
There is an uncomfortable contradiction between a woman wanting her partner to make more money while insisting on equal pay in general. If men and women earn the same salaries then half of all women will earn more than men.
And that means women have to be more than willing to date and partner with men who earn less than them. Men can no longer be the "providers" the great majority of the time.
This applies to other areas such as expanding the draft to women including putting them in the front lines. Womem have to die and be taken prisoner at the same rates as men in a war. Attitudes need to change about who pays for a first date and whether a man should hold a door open for a woman any more than he might do so for another man.
Only when both sexes share the burdens equally can we create a society where men may be completely comfortable with women earning the same as them in average. (That does not mean that we should ignore work place harassment or discrimination of course. And sharing the burdens alone is just part of a wide ranging process of achieving equality.)
I think we also need to research what we have evolved to desire from a biological perspective. Do women strongly want men to out earn them because of the social pressures of agriculture (after the end of winter gathering)? Or is it something much more hard wired? If so, then achieving gender pay equality in stark contradiction to primal drives driven by our genetics is likely to make many of us very miserable.
9
@Sam, "Only when both sexes share the burdens equally can we create a society where men may be completely comfortable with women earning the same as them in average." So you'll share the damage of childbearing, psychological and physical, as well as economic, plus all the childraising chores without being told?
We want to be paid the same as men because our work is as valuable. We want our male partners to make more because we know we're going to be forced to do huge amounts of unpaid domestic and emotional labor in our families. If we don't do it, it doesn't get done--and it needs to be.
13
@Erin
"If we don't do it, it doesn't get done--and it needs to be."
This does not explain how many single men can successfully run a household on their own.
@AnejoDiego
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/upshot/same-sex-couples-divide-chores...
In heterosexual couples the division of household labor is uneven. When your single your stuck with 100% of the work. When your married the tasks are shared but typically with women carrying more of the load irrespective of earnings outside of the home. So it's not so much that men can't do the work, it's just that if there's a woman to do it then the work typically gets unequally born by her.
1
I married Kate 30 years ago. She was a pediatrician, now retired. I was, at the time, a clergy in the Presbyterian church. She made 4 times my annual salary. Her income allowed me to retire from the ministry, something I was desperate to do, but couldn't afford. I cooked, focused on raising our sons and writing fiction. Later, we added vegetable gardens, flower gardens and an orchard which my being at home allowed me to tend. We both consider ourselves fortunate and where the resources come from for our life was never the issue between us. How we live mattered and, thirty years later, is still what matters.
92
I wonder if money is a proxy for status in these stories. A pastor or regional head has some degree of status in a church. I wonder if a relationship would be as secure if the husband spent an entire life as an assistant to an assistant in a church. He does as much good, but has less status. The same thing occurs with universities. Tenured professors likely believe they have immense status that counterweights a wife’s higher salary in a corporate job. Their support systems reinforce that status and involve the higher paid spouse. I wonder if a lifetime as an untenured, adjunct instructor would get the same result.
77
@Michael Blazin In fact, I know of multiple academic families in which the wife is the one who got a tenured position and the husband has to be an adjunct, given the incredible scarcity of academic positions. They are thriving and happy. Emotional and intellectual maturity go a long way to compensate for Neanderthal attitudes toward gender roles.
1
Emotional AND intellectual maturity? That is a pretty high bar for us guys. BTW, we prefer the Cro-Magnon tag. Every guy I know can operate basic tools.
Meh. We both worked and she made more than me. It had no effect on our marriage or our status or relationships. It was a conscious choice because she got the better job offer at a slightly higher salary to start and I was part of a twofer. We both got to do dream jobs that matched our interests and our educations. At the other end, because I was older, our dual income allowed us to save more than enough for me to retire much earlier than I would have otherwise in my late 50's and work for non profits which I enjoyed even more.
23
The last sentence is the kicker: "When men are unemployed or underemployed, women are less likely to consider them marriage material, and more likely to want a divorce."
In that sentence you have a great deal of why men so ferociously resist equal pay for "equal" work and why men continue to make more at the highest levels. If your marriage and relationship prospects depend upon your income this is perfectly logical.
We live in a status conscious society. Women are NOT egalitarians--they are attracted by status. Thus to expect men to give up status is equivalent to asking women to marry low status men to change this situation.
118
@Hazlit Sort of. It's not just a status issue, though certainly that can be part of it, especially for very young women. The other problem is that men who are unemployed or bitter about their job are often destructive to those around them. Men are very harsh toward other men about 'freeloading off women' and unemployed men internalize that. Resulting self-hatred then makes many men feel contempt toward any woman who would want them. That can manifest as self-destructive behaviour eg: addictions or as lashing out and sabotage toward their partners. There are plenty of women out there reading this who still love their underemployed husbands but are being pushed away and wonder how much longer they can take it. It just takes one relationship like this to sour many women on men with precarious employment. The word 'unemployed' contains layers of value - from other men, from the man, and also from the woman's experiences.
34
The majority of people who get married do so with the intention of having children, even as the number one thing a woman can do to increase her risk of living in poverty is to have a child.
If we’re going to assume that very real risk (never mind the physical toll of pregnancy and the debt that can accrue from a hospital stay), why in the world would we select unemployed or underemployed men as spouses?
The “status” we’re talking about here is basic survival.
22
@Hazlit . I agree with you. The moment I became engaged to my wife I began to hear people say how "Everything will change" once we were married. My wife and I both have college degrees and are successful in our respective fields. Our relationship is a loving, caring one in which we share everything 50/50 even though our incomes can fluctuate somewhat. Still, something did indeed change the moment we were married. The sum total of who I had been as a single man/person became far secondary to what I became as a husband. I became what I refer to as an aggregate: the sum total of my holdings and income balanced against any debt I carry. In every way big and small, publicly and privately I have been made to feel this way. It is the silent intrinsic code that permeates everything and it is transmitted in subtle ways. This is "one of those things" that men silently take the brunt of in life. Any guy who complains, especially one who complains about "the way things are" gets no sympathy. While men won't typically speak of such things directly with each other or perhaps at all, we do communicate in subtle and indirect ways with each other which clearly indicates how I am not alone in how I've been made to feel. To be clear, I'm not complaining about my situation. It's just one of those things. My wife and marriage are tremendous and I cherish both.
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I've observed that on college campuses it's not unusual for male professors to have wives in other professions with higher salaries. Professors married to professors may not even live in the same state during the academic year. When dads willingly share the traditional responsibilities of moms, particularly child-rearing, it seems advantageous to everyone.
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"...how people actually live their lives." What does "live" mean in this context? Such seemingly surficial intellectualization and many breezy comments herein ignore much of the evolutionary gender role instincts and emotions that still weigh heavily on us even in our evolving transcendent equalization/liberation, and ignoring that remnant atavistic history does not aid navigating this phenomenon.
I've known and observed several times that women who make more money and/or are monetarily wealthier feel emotionally insecure as a result because deep down they don't feel sufficiently supported and reliably provided for. (Which jibes with, "Expectations about men have been slower to change. When men are unemployed or underemployed, women are less likely to consider them marriage material, and more likely to want a divorce.")
And the counterpart aspect is men who feel inadequate and unappreciated as providers, and feel that women who work to make significantly more money can't be sufficiently nurturing and supportive.
It can be a little crazymaking when expressions of intellectual confidence aren't matched by behaviors and emotional undercurrents. A disconnect. Thoughtful exploration and real communication are necessary to gain conscious resolution and integration.
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Money, work, and gender roles are still huge roadblocks to true equality. I am on a social media app for people in my industry, which is a well-paying creative industry, and this topic comes up often among the women in higher-levels roles. Many would date a man who made more than them, no questions asked. But on the flip side they don't want someone who makes less. Also, in our society, when a married couple has no kids and the wife doesn't work or has menial a low-paying job, like part-time yoga instructor or something, no one blinks an eye. But if a woman were supporting a husband who made little to no money, and they had no kids, everyone would say he's using her. This is as much a problem for women as it is for men. People have a really hard time getting over these "traditional" money roles.
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I would be suspicious of a married woman without kids who didn’t work. I would think she is lazy and/or unintelligent.
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I am in my late 30s, and depending on my bonus structure for any given year, have sometimes made 2x more than my husband, who also has a very good job. We have always supported each other in our careers and when we decided to get married, had a very honest discussion about what we each expected from the other in terms of housework and child care. When I was a young associate in a law firm, it was my husband who came home early to relieve the nanny, make our children dinner and put them to bed. We share our roles equally, and he takes his fatherly responsabilities seriously. That is the definition of a real man - it has nothing to do with how much money you make.
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@Stefanie B: but your husband has a "very good job" anyways and your extra earnings come from bonuses. What if he had a lousy job with low status? would the equality of the marriage still stand up? what if he decided since the job market is bad, he was going to quit his job and stay home with the kids?
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@Stefanie B
"That is the definition of a real man - it has nothing to do with how much money you make."
Unfortunately, our culture disagrees. Most guys will tell you that their paycheck and job title vastly influence how women react to them.
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The statement was that men who wives earned more inflated salaries by 2.9%. I looked through article and found no statement that men that earned more than wives had 0% inflation. I think it more likely that men always inflate their salaries. I am just surprised it is only 2.9%. I doubt many men know their AGI on a return.
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I always made more money then my husband. He and my daughter never liked my cooking so my husband cooked and I did the baking. I also let him manage the finances and raise my daughter. He was the better parent. Whichever spouse wants to do something in the marriage should have the choice to do what they want.
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Married 30 years in May- I am a physician, husband was home till all kids in college and now an ECHO tech. Worked for us.
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I'm thrilled to be married to a man who is totally secure in himself and was proud to describe his wife as 'the brains of the family' who also made more money than he did (until I retired). There's nothing sexier than a man who is totally secure in himself and just wants his wife to be happy no matter what she chooses to do in life. A husband who is as humble as he is intelligent is about as good as it gets in life.
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This is the most important article in the newspaper today, not the clown's antics. The crisis in masculinity, the failure to acknowledge, understand, or find comfort in women entering the workforce since the 1970s, is what got the clown elected in the first place, and is what drives rightist politics. See Krugman today on the ideology of right-wing politicians despite what their constituents vote for or want. The desperation to recover masculinity in its older forms drove men and women of Germany to embrace someone who promised to lead them out of the humiliations of WWI. We face not a culture war as a distraction, but as the driving force. See Edsall on this topic in his recent post. See gun advertisements promising a purchase of manhood, as if the symbolism weren't enough.
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@Daniel Mozes: lol -- so ... none of those problems existed BEFORE Trump was elected .... 18 months ago? Men & women lived in perfect harmony back then?
Individual people have "feelings" that transcend whoever is in the White House. A Democrat can feel as put out by his wife's success as any "deplorable" -- a Republican can be completely at easy with being a "stay at home Dad". People are not stereotypes.
Anyways, lots of women voted for Trump -- a majority of white women, in fact -- and statistically, many of them had to have had good jobs.
Maybe you should be asking WHY there is this crisis of masculinity and not looking to blame everything in society on ONE MAN.
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If my wife earned enough to be the sole breadwinner in the family, I'd be the happiest man in America.
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@Joe: it is my observation -- just personal, no studies or research -- that a lot of men LIKE to say this. But in reality, they end up resentful. My feeling is that while everyone loves money and the nice things it can buy (including free time and freedom from worries, vacations and new toys)....in reality, the person who earns/controls the money has a kind of power that the person who does NOT earn/control money does NOT have. "He/she who has the gold, calls the shots".
I think it is this power, the final ability to say "yay or nay" on financial stuff, that men want and believe (sometimes falsely) is held ONLY by the person who earns the most money.
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"When men are unemployed or underemployed, women are less likely to consider them marriage material, and more likely to want a divorce."
Well, if he's a lazy layabout, sure. You really aren't marriage material at that point. But women are pretty understanding. If the guy's had some bad luck leading to a job loss (very common in this economy), I think most women will stick it out. The years of hard work he put in before being laid off at 50 will count in the marriage bank. At least it's been that way in a few marriages in my family. Teamwork and all that.
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This is a well-known and researched fact. Women prioritize economic stability in their partners, men prioritize physical looks and/or youth.
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@neal I dunno...read a lot of the comments here from men who are perfectly happy that their wives make more. "Women are X" and "men are Y" are generalizations that persist but no longer reflect the diverse nature of reality. Humans are complicated, evolutionary creatures. Both genders want stability and attractiveness overall.
@cheesepizza One would certainly hope that that's the case. Unfortunately, the research suggests an effect for many couples, though. One study found that when a husband becomes jobless, the likelihood of divorce doubles. For wives, their joblessness had no effect on the likelihood of divorce.
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I have a few responses to this article, and not personal gripes, as I've earned a decent income, anywhere from 50% to 100% more than my spouse for the last 15 years.
My first is to question whether the inaccuracy matters. The real issue to me is the inane idea held by 71% that men should support their families. It's nice and attainable with a solid six-figure income, but it has become impossible for many people to survive, let alone support a family, on the paycheck of one person, male. Hello, plutocracy...
My second is to ask if a few percent here or there is a significant amount. Statistically, yes, as the sample size was large enough to find differences that, in my view, are trivial, but as for dollar values, they are minor. For myself, I am always a little bit fuzzy on how much I earned in a year, considering the movements in salary and bonus.
Anyway, my feeling isn't that the problem isn't the exaggeration, it is the gender norms of this country and its inequality.
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@James Igoe: Elizabeth Warren -- when she was an academic and not a Senator -- wrote an interesting book about this, called "The Two Income Trap". It describes how we got to this place, where it takes two incomes to stay afloat economically and what it does to families -- even OUTSIDE of any inequality between men and women in pay. Maybe the real problem is a society where ONE ADULT working full time cannot support a partner & family of ANY mix of genders.
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My mom made more than my dad towards the end of their careers. He happily bragged about it. As Marge Keller pointed out in her comment, if you have a real marriage, it's "your" money anyway. Any extra household income is good news, right?
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Women don't like to let husbands know exactly how much they have since that leaves us a slush fund for slipping money to the kids.
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What insecure bunch of males and females have you been talking too?
Worth and self-worth in and out of a marriage is not measured by dollars.
If it is, find a better partner.
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I'm in a relationship where my female partner used to earn about 60% more than me, a man, both of us professionals. Over the years I've found startling effects on our relationship and our attitudes about work and money. Some of which I can only guess are gender related.
When we started living together, and sharing a bank account, my partner was comfortable reducing her work hours by 50%, until we were about making the same. I just had to work a lot more to earn that. Yet reducing my hours is never something I'd consider, someone driven by work, it would be unthinkable. Her making so much more than me, into a joint account at that, was not something she was comfortable with. Earning money also did not have the same importance to her overall.
At one point I was laid off from work, something that happens every few years in my field. I find a new job in a few months. However this was extremely stressful to my partner, despite her capability to be our "breadwinner" for a while. It was a role she wasn't comfortable assuming, and double that, a supporter she wasn't comfortable giving to me as the man. If reversed, I don't think the same stresses would be there.
So at least in my situation, I don't think my female partner was comfortable earning more than me. In the sense that she thought it unfair that she had to be the breadwinner at all, that I should be that. For me not to be was weakness or failure in some way. The money itself was not important, the roles were though.
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@MH
You need to find a better partner, a female who doesn't consider it a burden, a stress to support her life partner, even temporarily when the guy is in a tough spot.
Do you think this woman will stick around if your earning capability is permanently lost? (illness, changes in job market)
Grow a spine ,see this person for the fickle person she is and leave while you still can and find a better person.
Good luck.
2
At various times I earned more, and at others, my husband did. Sometimes we were within a few thousand dollars, and for a few years I earned 70k more. We never really had any issue with this and my husband often joked about being "kept."
But I married someone who's not an insecure baby, so that helped.
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I think this I slightly unfair to men in the sense that the issue is not all about mens' insecurity. the flip side is women who feel ill at ease when they earn more than their husbands.
2
But if it came to it, who would protect you from marauding hordes and wild animals?
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Such articles make me feel glad to be old and not to have to deal with such likely humiliation.
10
Embarrassment about earnings vis-a-vis husbands no doubt leads to many women settling for lesser incomes than they are entitled to at the workplace. It should always be equal pay for equal work.
One must also consider what job each person does. If, for instance, the husband is a professor at a university and his wife is a physician at the local hospital, it is likely that the wife will make a higher income than the husband. Both jobs have prestige.
For very many people, however, it is a struggle to make ends meet. If the husband works a factory job by day and a high school coach into the early evening while his wife works as a clerk during the daytime and does a few shifts as a bartender, well, the wife might well make more than the husband.
In either scenario, each spouse should be grateful for what they have: a partnership. The more important things in this relationship should not be who makes what but how do these earning contribute to the overall well-being of the family.
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I make nothing and my darling makes far far more. The issue is rather her view of me than my view as opined here. Now, I'm secure in my feelings but that's only because I've a healthy ego.
4
I guess all this article proves and confirms is that my relationship with my husband is the exception rather than the rule. For over 20 years, I have been making more money than my beloved spouse and he continues to refer to me as the “senior bread winner” of the family.
There has NEVER been an ounce of animosity, rancor, jealousy, envy or bitterness felt nor displayed by my husband towards me for anything, and in particular, for earning a higher salary. He has always felt that I earned every penny I ever made and worked hard to get where I am today. But to be honest, if it wasn’t for my husband’s constant love and support, I wonder if I would be where I am today. We never refer to money in our house as “his” or “her” for our finances and everything in our home is OURS – PERIOD. There has never been a “his” or “her” division, even regarding household chores. We share our responsibilities as well as the work load, the laundry detail, the bills and that pint of chocolate ice cream in the freezer.
Articles like this one always reinforces how fortunate and lucky I am to have an emotionally strong and well-grounded spouse. Life is hard and challenging enough without adding insecurities about as who earns the higher and lower income in a marriage. We always felt it was the COMBINED income amount that was paramount.
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@Marge Keller RBG might have a similar story to tell about her husband, that behind that great women is a man who appreciated the importance of her work.
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Great comment, and congratulations!
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Way to go, sister!
Been married for nearly 35 years and have always made more money than my husband. Never been a problem. I am a professional; he is an academic.
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I know of a couple where the wife an executive for a tech company and the husband is in a teaching position. This is the second marriage for both. It depends on the industry they are working in. She makes almost three times what he does but this seems to work for them. It helps that he was raised by parents who didn't equate money with happiness necessarily. It also helps that his schedule is routine and allows him to take care of the kids - to and from school and make dinner. Marriage is a partnership and theirs works
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Women don't mention it because it's one of the quickest way to put your partner (someone you presumably like) in a bad mood and on the defensive.
I've noticed this in my own life when I was growing up. My dad was a peaceable man but when my mom happened to mention that she was bringing in more income (at the time) and should have more of a say in how money was spent, he'd lose his cool so quickly I couldn't really believe the he was the same guy.
My mom quickly learned to not bring money issues out into the open, at least when my dad was un/underemployed at the time. If he was satisfactorily employed (meaning earning more than my mom), my dad would be highly accommodating to my mother and in fact wouldn't even appear to care about how the money was spent. But you don't kick him when he's down.
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@LR
My guess is that if the roles were reversed, or the same as in your example, most people of either gender would react as your dad did.
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@Jojojo Nope. Men consistently take the attitude that they should have the dominant say in the household and family because of their earnings. She dared think her work entitled her to an equal voice as joint head of her household.
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@LR: you've touched on a good point. It is less about the actual dollars, than about POWER. If neither person "lords it over" the other....then the POOL of money that can be used for both expenses and entertainment is what matters and both people prosper.
But real life is such that people DO disagree -- even in loving marriages -- about things like saving, spending, investing, etc. and sometimes completely decent people just DISAGREE about something. It is THEN, that the person who earns the most money tends to blurt out stuff like "well, it's MY money and I EARNED IT, and I'm going to make the final decision about whether we put in Brazilian granite counters or not!"
For all the folks bragging here about the perfect equality of their marriages....I suspect they have just not YET hit such a snag.
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It would be interesting if this could be broken out by income level. Are high earners as likely to fudge as low? As for under / unemployed men being less desirable - would really be interested to know if this is correlation or causation. The men may have other undesirable traits, which can also lead to the under/ unemployment - instability, drinking or substance abuse, etc.
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@josie
Women are far too often judges by their physical attributes, men too often for their fiscal attributes.
Believe me, guys will tell you that their job title and income greatly influence women's response to them.
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@josie
Oh, my instinct is that high earners would definitely lie about this. You think a type A guy with an elite pedigree and a prestigious profession wants to admit that the little lady is pulling in more bank?
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@Jojoj
Josie's question on correlation vs causation still stands. The fact that guys reportedly experience being treated differently according to their income doesn't mean the income itself is cause. It could be that they themselves equate their self-worth with money or position. A healthy self-confidence is attractive and its lack may signal psychological issues.
Money, schmoney. Who cares who makes the most? My wife and I are a team!
When we married, I earned more than my wife. But she was a partner buying into her rural medical practice, and I hadn’t yet made partner in my urban law firm. The 60 mile distance between our offices made that lifestyle untenable in the long run, and telecommuting wasn’t yet an option for me.
We had to make a decision: one of us had to subordinate his or her career to the other. Since the cost of living was lower and the hours better out in the country, I quit a job I absolutely loved because I loved one thing more: my wife.
Do we earn less? Heck yes. I in particular earn a fraction of my wife’s income, let alone that of an equity partner in a top law firm. But we have every Wednesday and almost every weekend off. We see our grandchildren almost every day. We will still be able to retire at a reasonable age. In addition to practicing law a little, I have time to volunteer in my community, help out with my wife’s practice, serve as an elected official, pick the kids up from school, and help my mother as she ages. And my wife loves her job, her patients, and her partners.
Do I regret not out-earning my wife? What do you think?
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@David S.
I think you call what you have love, real love in action, and it is special.
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@cheryl Yes, a truly rare feat this day and age. Sadly, this is going to be less frequent going forward.
Women are far too often valued for their physical attributes, men too often for their fiscal attributes.
Believe me, guys will tell you that their job title and income greatly influence women's response to them.
In some parts of our 37-yr marriage, I've earned more; sometimes she's earned more. So what? It's all our money.
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It seems to me there is a blindness to childbearing in gender-role statistical analyses. The simple truth is that I, or any other man, will never be able to grow a human fetus, and that likely affects many marriages.
To be certain, men are quite capable of child-raising, post pregnancy. Adoption is also quite prevalent, both in heterosexual and homosexual marriages. And of course some couples never want or intend to have children.
But the foundation for a vast number of marriages remains the legacy of childbirth. It makes sense, then, that many couples base their relationship ideals on that foundation. Taken to the extreme, the [admittedly somewhat harsh] logic goes like this: the wife will always have a role as the incubator, food supply, and instinctual caretaker, but if the husband isn't feeding and sheltering the family, then he has no other role and should be discarded.
That is not how I or wife live our lives. We have both been stay-at-home parents at various points of our life, both are active parents, and both are now earning decent money. She cooks [better food!]. I wash dishes.
But despite our marital equality, we also have honest discussions about how the biological differences between men and women have shaped our relationship. After you have lived through pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, and maternal instincts, they are impossible to ignore.
The apparent taboo against discussing the impact of anatomy needs to be lifted in academic discussions.
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@htg It isn't really taboo - but it has nothing to do with women's career possibilities and earnings, as can easily be seen just by looking at some of the power women out there with kids.
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@Leila
Objectively, I agree that childbirth does not automatically negate a woman's career. I have the pleasure of knowing many professional women who simultaneously put my earnings and my elementary school involvement to shame. I have to carve out more reading time next year...
That's not the point.
Subjectively, childbirth and the instincts that follow in its footsteps may help explain the rationale and logic of the 71% from the article. Yet, childbirth - and more importantly, the absolute impossibility of childbirth in males - is rarely if ever discussed. To a broader degree, anatomy and survival have played a role in shaping our social norms, yet in post-materialistic societies discussions on those roots are often take a back seat.
Socially, we need to continue to move towards your objective point: women's anatomy shouldn't matter.
Academically in the social sciences, however, we should always strive to understand the true reasons behind the subjective reasoning of a society: anatomy has and continues to play a role in marital relationships and the economics behind those relationships.
These goals are not mutually exclusive.
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