A designer from Parson's is designing new concert wear for the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra; the objective is attractive formalwear that accommodates the athleticism of playing. Other orchestras could follow their lead - perhaps having a woman as music director has made Baltimore more open and creative in their approach to things like this?
2
I've played in a lot of symphony orchestras (none nearly as fine as the NY Philharmonic!), and women's concert dress is often all over the charts. Men were required to wear black tuxedos, white shirts, black shoes, and black bow tie. Outside of the relatively modest differences between tuxedos the men looked looked, particularly to the audience, fairly uniform. The women had to wear black, but there were pants suits, pants without jackets, long dresses, medium dresses, long skirts, gauchos (you read that right), short sleeves, long sleeves, sweaters, etc... A nice black pants suit with a white shirt would be fine, but there should be some effort toward uniformity for a symphony's appearance.
Incidentally, the Philharmonic's new music director is Jaap van Zweden, who was the Dallas Symphony's Music Director for 10 years. His dress for concerts is decidedly non-traditional.
https://nyphil.org/~/media/images/newsroom/1718/photo-gallery/jvz6-chris...
2
I totally agree about uniformity. I've also played in orchestras and am a trained musician. I'm not personally a pants wearer and would always want to wear a dress or long skirt, but have no problem with women who want to wear pants. However, if men are in tuxes or tails, then the women have to be in a similarly formal level of dress. I hate when I see men all done up and women in a blouse and slacks.
3
Do the players get paid well enough to be able to easily a$1000 dollar costumes or uniforms such as tuxes etc. Other performers, on a theatre stage, fpr example, have costumes provided. (As do workers at McDonalds!) It would be great if musicians were treated with the same consideration.
6
At the levels they are talking here - yes, they are paid quite well and can afford a quality set of performance clothes. I went to music school and everyone had the same requirements for concert dress. Also, all performers do other gigs along with their symphony jobs - solo performances, chamber music, other smaller things. So, their concert dress can be worn to all of these things as well. The probably spend way less on clothes than does a professional in business.
1
everything everywhere is so casual these days, what is wrong with keeping some things fancy?
3
This is one thing I tend to notice at symphony concerts. Only once have I seen an orchestra with all of the women in dresses. That was the Los Angeles Philharmonic with Gustavo Dudamel. Every woman on stage was in a dress. I couldn't say for sure but my assumption was that it was their rule, since there was not one single exception,.
1
Normally, the Seattle Symphony women musicians wear all black. Most all wear pants; some wear skirts and dresses. Depending on the concert, the men also wear all black or tuxes.
We also have "Untuxed" concerts which are shorter (no intermission) with no dress code for anyone (except [maybe] "clean") including the audience. It's fun to see the Symphony and the listeners in their native attire. Lots of jeans and cool tops. Not distracting; in fact, it's almost comforting to see real looking people up there.
Sad to see that this kind of an issue is a problem for other symphonies...
4
The absurdity of the “issue” here is now being laid bare by the commenters who are now chiming in and claiming that the dress code is “discriminatory” against “non-binary”, “gender queer”, “gender fluid” persons. And people in this country wonder why so many people voted for Donald Trump (I didn’t).
3
You know, gender fluid people are just as “real” and as deserving of respect and dignity as any of us. What does it cost you to acknowledge this?
9
How could the New York Times make no mention of the wonderful children's book, The Philharmonic Gets Dressed, by Karla Kuskin? It was a big favorite when our children were small. Wear what you want! Go barefoot. Make beautiful music.
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/karla-kuskin/philharmonic-get...
7
We loved that book! Read it to our children when they were small!
2
They should wear black but whatever it is, is up to them. I am horrified by the horrible black dresses (that flatter no one) forced on the girls in my son's high school chamber orchestra while at the same time the fellows look sharp in their tuxedos. At least in his other group, non-school group, the ladies are allowed to pick their black outfits. They always look (and play) stunning(ly)!
Stupid sexism.
5
What's so bad about a woman dressing like a woman? For some reason, here in the US, only women in their femininity wear dresses! Whereas women in their masculinity only wear pants! For many people, it is too difficult to determine which sex belongs in their feminine energy and who belongs in their masculinity! No wonder Johnny marries Bill, and Debbie marries Jennifer! If you don't believe me, just go to Europe and you will see lots of feminine women in dresses! More so than here the US!
2
What's wrong with men just shutting up completely about women and how they dress? Nothing at all.
19
So this is why it all seems more old fashioned than musical....how distracting.
The Philadelphia Orchestra allows their female players to wear pants. The question is more about the quality of the attire--because "cheap" shows. The men are in tails--which cost in the neighborhood of a thousand dollars or more for the entire kit. Some women, the principal cellist being a prime example, look fabulous every night. I won't name names, but some others look like they spent 19.95 on a cheap pair of polyester pants, stuck them in their lockers and haven't washed them in 20 years. At the very least, the women ought to take a little pride in whatever they are wearing...pants or skirts.
5
They say that imitation is the purest form of flattery. Therefore, it's surprising that the NY Philharmonic won't let women be like men, like all other institutions.
2
Exactly what is so wrong with tradition?
6
Anyone who watched the Royal Wedding or who has seen any episodes of The Crown, knows the importance of tradition and symbolic dress. They offer society at large the comfort of stability in an increasingly chaotic world.
5
For more than 250+ years, men and women in the NY Philharmonic have performed at world-class level while dressed formally: men in tails and white ties, ladies in dresses and skirts. Suddenly some men and some women decide they want to change that because they say they aren't comfortable and therefore can't play at that same level....really? The same degrading of intellectual and maturity standards in general society is now infesting our wonderful Philharmonic. Sad. If the Philharmonic goes through with this change, they will undoubtedly alienate long-term subscribers who care about classical music while failing to attract newer, younger subscribers who don't care about classical music anyway. This is a lose-lose proposal.
Maybe the Philharmonic and the Lincoln Center staff can and should reintroduce a dress code for the audience. No one I know wants to sit next to someone wearing dirty jeans and work boots, flip-flops and shorts or some other inappropriate dresswear at a concert. Having fellow audience members flapping their flip-flops, talking, singing along, using their devices (surreptitiously, no less!) and otherwise not paying attention to the music is not only obnoxious, distracting and depriving of money and concert experience. If they and their clothing are smelly, noisy and otherwise intrusive, there may be no point in concerning ourselves with what the musicians on stage are playing or wearing. The artform will die due to the boorishness of the audience.
10
Bermuda shorts for all, I say. Look. I get it. Getting one's English-horn keys caught up in the folds of one's dress is beyond inconvenient. If a trombonist places their slide too low it can crease one's trousers, or worse. The pant-leg-less structure of Bermuda shorts eliminates the possibility of either catastrophe. Additionally, the over-heated nature of Avery Fisher Hall in the winter makes Bermuda shorts for both sexes advisable; and, the pre-concert haul of that bass-fiddle to Lincoln Center during sultry NYC days will make Bermuda shorts a blessing. When this far-sighted proposal is adopted, however, I WOULD have long black socks be optional for female orchestra members.
4
Bermuda shorts? Not in the xenophobic spirit of these days. Why not celebrate the era of Lincoln Center's founding while offering even more freedom? Hot pants anyone? Might even help some members of the audience to pay closer attention to the stage.
Jaap van Zweden did not wear a tie—or even a dress shirt—throughout his ten years leading the Dallas Symphony. I assure you, no one complained. Let them wear what allows them to make the best music.
11
I do believe in garments being worn for special occasions being special. Just as I am in favor of school uniforms so that concentration is on school instead of fashion. That being said, men are really discriminated against in the fashion world, as the only enduring template seems to be one of padded shoulders, certain cuff exposures or inclusions, width of lapels, length of ties, number and situation of vents and details around pockets, etc. I don't envy the trombone player who has to fight the restraint of sleeves on his jacket, or the violinist who needs free space for her bow, or the cellist who needs a voluminous skirt to accommodate opened knees. There certainly must be, somewhere in a multi-billion dollar fashion industry, a designer who could not only find accommodating wear for a musician, and still maintain that special magic that formal-wear introduces.
12
I think there should be choice in the dress code but I also think it would be nice if there was still a cohesive look. Would be nice if the audience dressed better too and this applies to the Broadway audiences now as well. I feel it takes away from the experience of going out to a wonderful event with everybody looking like they are at a ball game now.
17
First, to address the question of white tie for men: please do not change, especially in the name of "attracting a younger audience". I have been to the London Phil where it seemed overly casual, and I think it detracted from the experience. Second, regarding dress for women: sure, wear pants (I'm a frequent patron of the NSO, which does allow pants) but a more uniform look among women would be welcome. Maybe I'm "old school" - but geez, it's *classical* music! Show respect for an art form that has endured for centuries.
15
I was happy to read this article as this has been a pet peeve of mine for years. I happen to love the uniformity of how the male members of the orchestra look but find the female members’ choices range from classy to What Was She Thinking? My suggestion is for a designer like Eileen Fisher to come up with a functional, beautiful selection of pieces for the women, that would be simple, elegant, would present a cohesive look, and also not restrict their playing. Does EF read the comments?
13
Eileen Fisher is such a good idea!
Many years ago when I was a member of the Indianapolis Symphony, all the women wore the same gown (designed by Halston, I believe it was). Fitted on top with long sleeves, it had several yards of fabric in the skirt (to accommodate cellists and wind players), so that whenever we had to go up or down stairs we'd have to bend down and rapidly swirl the bottom of the gown around an arm multiple times so we didn't trip. Personally I think it's long past time to update, NY Phil!
15
If being entrenched in 19th Century norms and sexual biases is sophisticated, then yes, New York is sophisticated. Maybe it's time for the Directors to get out and about a little bit? There is a world outside of Lincoln Center.
20
Ah, yes! The "Casual Friday" solution. "Everybody else is doing it, why don't we?"
Casual Friday soon became "casual everyday".
Keep it up and soon we'll see them playing in T-shirts and shorts.
3
You should just see what some in the audience wears. Sheesh! For some, t-shirts and shorts would be a step up.
4
Personally, I wear whatever the heck I want. If that's not good enough for you, your organization, your "event," or whatever, then I'm happy to do without.
The amount of resources wasted on clothing, including time and money, is nothing short of obscene, though also quite hilarious.
7
It’s a matter of respect for the event and the performers. Listen on your headphones if you can’t be bothered to change out of couch potato couture.
8
What I look forward to is the day that men can wear dresses. So much more comfortable than pants!
11
Let's just compromise and make both men and women wear billowing pantaloons.
13
The women of the Boston Symphony have been wearing pants for 40 years . Long skirts are also allowed ......
11
I'm sure the ladies of the Vienna Philharmonics would love to have this problem. All 5 of them...
22
18 actually.
4
Wow progress! so by the year 2097 or so they should have a reasonable gender distribution...
2
The women should be allowed to wear pants and the men to wear dresses and high heels.
21
2018, time to stop being daft.
13
No one so far has mentioned health and accessibility concerns. I'm a woman with an ostomy, and I can tell you that I feel substantially less secure with my appliance when I wear a dress or skirt versus trousers. Please remember those of us who require wardrobe accommodations to participate fully.
22
yours is about the musicians, not the audience. as a spectator you can wear (unfortunately) almost anything.
2
I've been performing for years. Not in the Philharmonic, mind you, but with some groups who get reviewed in the NYT. Men wear black: black shirt, black pants, black shoes/socks, black suit jacket. Tie or vest? Black. Women wear black, with a splash of color sometimes, if they are a soloist. Pants, shirts, dresses- it doesn't matter. The performer makes the choice.
And do you know what happens? When the music ends, the audience claps. If they're really happy, we'll get a standing ovation. When we're done, people come up and tell us how much they enjoyed the concert, or ask us questions about our instruments, or reminisce about their playing days in high school or college. We connect, we have a great time, and most of them come back time and again.
No one has ever inquired about how we're dressed. That's not why they came.
45
They don't inquire about how you're dressed because you are dressed in the expected uniform. If you were to show up in something unexpected you might find that those after show discussions might be as much about your clothes as about the music. This, of course, is one of the reasons you dress in your somewhat nondescript black uniform. It allows the audience to concentrate on the music rather than on you.
13
I think we've all been watching too much of The Hand Maid's Tale. The Times has cast the issue of traditional formal wear for the orchestra solely as a women's issue, without considering that men's formal wear is also uncomfortable and ill suited for playing an instrument.
As long as high heels are not required, there's really nothing inherently oppressive about a skirt. Worn with flats (and socks) a skirt can be as comfortable as pants and is usually less constricting. Cool in summer and warm in winter, skirts are really a wonderful garment of clothing. As I mentioned elsewhere I know a number of men who prefer a skirt for dancing.
Naturally everyone should have the option of wearing a tux that's tailored for them, if that sort of formal wear is required, but I'm not sure that playing in a jacket and tie is preferable to a comfortable, light weight gown.
Instead of thinking skirts are an instrument of oppression, perhaps we could consider opening up the freedom to wear a skirt to everyone.
11
"As long as high heels are not required, there's really nothing inherently oppressive about a skirt." Have you consulted any cellists about this?
37
I played cello in an orchestra that required female musicians to wear long skirts. I had to have a skirt custom sewn for me to have it wide enough to allow me to hold the cello properly. That also made it risky to walk in while carrying my cello, particularly when the orchestra had to use stairs to the stage. Cellists have it worst with skirts, but they present difficulties for all instrumentalists.
--(Not actually Mike)
9
I'm disappointed that this article and the orchestras discussed in it do not seem to be thinking beyond the gender binary. Many people identify as trans, non-binary, gender queer, gender fluid, etc. And some cis women aren't comfortable with dresses and some cis men are not comfortable with tuxes. Orchestras should have non-gendered dress policies that give members the flexibility to select professional-looking clothes that work for their gender identities/expressions. One option is all-black dress clothes. Someone of any gender could wear a suit, a dress, etc.--whatever makes them most comfortable.
12
Even allowing women in orchestras is pretty recent.
Watching old video clips on Classic Arts Showcase on the NY CUNY channel, I sometimes see all male orchestras. Maybe a few women harpists were allowed.
From the Guardian--
“As late as 1970, the top five orchestras in the U.S. had fewer than 5% women. It wasn't until 1980 that any of these top orchestras had 10% female musicians. But by 1997 they were up to 25% and today some of them are well into the 30s.
In the 1970s and 1980s, orchestras began using blind auditions. Candidates are situated on a stage behind a screen to play for a jury that cannot see them.
Even when the screen is only used for the preliminary round, it has a powerful impact; researchers have determined that this step alone makes it 50% more likely that a woman will advance to the finals. And the screen has also been demonstrated to be the source of a surge in the number of women being offered positions.”
9
I bet the harp, bassoon, cello and bass players are behind this!
10
Give women the opportunity to wear a tuxes if they'd like or for men to wear formal dresses. What difference does it make if a vulva is involved?
9
Just a couple of years ago, I saw the LA Phil perform at Davies in SF. They looked and sounded great. The women were in long dresses. It was such a contrast to the look presented by the women of the SF Symphony- they all comply with the dress code, which does allow pants, of course, but often the fabrics and styles that the women wear are just not on par with the tux and tails the men are wearing. It can be done. But it is difficult to regulate the overall quality of appearance. Of course it doesn’t matter if is is pants or a gown. But you need to look good, not schleppy.
7
What year is this???
25
Well, why not just wear work-out clothes the way many in the audience do. It appears that no occasion is considered important enough to wear anything approaching formal dress. Do they truly believe that the lack of interest in classical music by the young, has to do with the attire of the musicians? Horse feathers!
14
This dress code is truly silly. Just like heels at Cannes. I would prefer a dress code
That simply required people to be clean. I bet many people would support that standard.
13
Kilts for everyone?!!
15
No, the kilt is properly a gentleman's garment. Women may wear pleated tartan skirts, but those are not kilts.
Frankly, men should be required to wear skirts, there's nothing appealing seeing the men and their manspread when you're sitting in the front rows.
10
Modernize!! So much for NYC being a "trendsetting rule breaker" in the world of fashion.
2
Are they there to play music or to be fashion trendsetters?? The clothing should be quiet and dignified. Accommodations should be made for the players of specific instruments. No one should "stand out". It's an orchestra playing classical music, not Sgt. Pepper's LHC band.
4
Why wear anything at all?
7
I'll never forget how elegant pianists Katia and Marielle Labe'que looked in 1988 when they played with the Buffalo Philharmonic wearing Armani (I think) pant suits.
A May 1, 1989 Washington Post article opens with this line "In chic pantsuits (one black, one white) and flowing tresses, duo pianists Katia and Marielle Labe'que played before an adoring crowd Friday night at the Kennedy Center Concert Hall."
It's 2018 - what's the problem with pants?
15
How can this still be a thing? Women are people, people! Get your hands, opinions and petty rules off our bodies! We are not chattel. This is stunning and discouraging.
5
Did you miss the part where the men have fewer options, if any at all?
4
Suggest these talented ladies contact their counterparts in the Boston Symphony Orchestra. The BSO ladies have been wearing pants for 20 years or so.
13
Get with the times, NY Phil. Women can look and sound professional in a wide range of costumes, so give them more choices. Men shouldn't need white tie and tails for the average subscription concert either.
15
It is odd to me that this story makes no mention of Joann Falletta - is not the Buffalo Phil. a major orchestra?
2
Unfortunately, the BPO is not listed among the most prestigious, but we know better. Joann Falletta is on par with the greatest conductors of the past 80 years. I cannot understand why the BPO and Falletta have not been given the recognition they deserve.
Their concerts can be heard on Fridays and Sundays on WNED-FM radio streaming. I miss attending their concerts.
BTW, Placitas, I mentioned Falletta in an earlier post.
1
"The New York Philharmonic, alone among the nation’s top orchestras in still requiring female players to wear skirts or gowns, has quietly been talking about modernizing its rule."
Let me express myself succinctly. "Still requiring," means, still mindlessly obeying; waiting for someone else to stand up and walk off for you. Unless I am GREATLY mistaken, the NYP cannot survive without women. Women of the NYP can't wear pants because they daily demonstrate they're not ready to, or they would be wearing them already; besides, like fairies, Lilliputians have no need of pants. Play on!
3
Can't survive without women? How did they survive when they had no women on the roster? Hint: Your statement is incorrect.
6
Just because they got along without women in the past doesn't mean it would fly today. Times change. Try to keep up.
1
It's important to me that a New York Philharmonic performance be presented in such a way, as Ms. Borda said, to convey a sense of occasion. One is, after all, presenting and preserving the greatest works ever created by human minds. However, the idea that one must be hide-bound to questionable traditions in achieving this sense of occasion is just foolish. It is uncontroversial in our day and age that both men and women have available to them clothes that express a formal style that sends the message that what they're engaged in is something special, while at the same time affording them the freedom to move as the rigors of playing their instruments might require. To require either sex to be impeded by their clothes in this pursuit is just stupid. That being said, I always found the cutaway jacket comfortable to play in and I always felt special adhering to that formality on the concert halls of Europe.
18
If you're who I hope you are, your opinion carries a lot of weight.
Meantime, the dress code was of course formulated by the men who ran classical music for decades and I doubt they gave a sackbutt if the women were comfortable or not. That's all we need to know about this controversy.
11
I love tails on tuxes! My dream is to look like Marlene Dietrich in a top hat and tails. (Probably not going to happen.) I'm sorry that Kennedy was the last president who wore tails and top hat to his inauguration. He looked great. My idol is the little dude in the Monopoly game. Oh well, I guess we won't see tails on bank tellers, cashiers, farmers, or auto mechanics soon, but it's nice to see them at the symphony. Of course, I don't like to be told how to dress either so it would grate on me to have to wear formal wear...unless I chose to wear formal wear.
2
Kennedy did not wear a top hat to his inauguration. Tails do NOT go on Tuxes, they go on cutaways.
4
Good on the NYP for holding up standards in glamour! Long may it continue. I’m sure even if they do change the dress code, most of the female players would continue to dress in fabulous style gowns anyway - and good on them too!
4
This has nothing to do with "glamour". A woman in pants can be just as glamorous as one in a gown. Particularly when she is seated in the middle of an orchestra where few people in the audience are even going to see what she is wearing below the waist. Virtually all the women in The Boston Symphony wear pants and not only do the look glamorous, but they sound it - even in pants.
6
I've been trying to grasp the value of “glamour” for decades. It associates with the Hollywood, so-called “stars”, rich people and money, pretense, consumerism, lowest of pop-culture, being brainwashed, conformism, oppression and absurdity. It’s 21st century. Time to get rid of?
3
I actually prefer to wear a dress or a skirt. I don't see what the issue is. Small sacrifices compared to the big sacrifices those who are in the philharmonic have to make. It's like saying, you can follow your dream, instead of submitting to corporate monotony, but you have to wear a dress or skirt. I would definitely wear whatever was required if it means I could follow my dreams. Pants are so uncomfortable.
3
I rarely see Deborah Borda in a dress at work.
Does the Board require her to wear one to Board meetings?
Her argument boils down to: our older clients prefer the ladies dressed a certain way. At some point, management needs to decide whose interests are more important, the clients' or the employees'.
The female members of the orchestra should not be treated like stewardesses from Qatar Airlines.
30
Not sure what the dig at Qatar is about — virtually all airlines ( including US and European based) have women flight attendants wearing knee length skirts. This isn’t anything Qatar-specific.
3
Raindrop: not true. Southwest, for example, gives their attendants a choice between knee length skirts and Bermuda shorts. I feel much safer knowing that the attendants on southwest, whose primary job is maintaining safety, are dressed suitably for their work. Virgin Air, with those ridiculous tight uniforms and high heeled red pumps for the women, is a danger to all of us. Imagine trying to stand on a wing in the Hudson wearing that get up?
Isn't the bottom line for all of us, being granted the freedom to wear appropriate clothing for our job whether it's playing the timpani or helping a pregnant woman out the emergency door of an airplane downed in the water? Formal makes sense for an orchestra but we can be formal and nicely presented without being ridiculous.
7
Neither should the men. I am sure they have a dress code as well. At any formal event, men are all expected to wear the same color suit and tie and pretty much need the same haircut. Meanwhile, the women get to wear elaborate gowns, and jewels and gloves...
2
Our "dress code" for musicians is a relatively recent tradition which more or less began with Queen Victoria and got stuck. In the Baroque, female singers wore their own formal dresses, not costumes. Somehow we are still wearing formal fashion from hundreds of years ago.
Just let people wear their own idea of formal wear, and in the case of orchestras, all black. The whole thing is really silly.
5
This is a case where modernity for modernity's sake becomes mere vulgarity. Does everything have to get worse?
7
The Associate Concertmaster of the Chicago Symphony, Stephanie Jeong, ALWAYS wears trousers, and very elegant she looks, too. I’m sure she was happy to leave the NY Phil!
12
As mentioned in this article, the Seattle Symphony's uniform for men is now black suit pants, jacket and tie. They look classy and stylish. And women have the choice to wear pants. Of course, what's most important is the orchestra's performances, which are magnificent.
13
Hope the San Francisco Symphony can do this. The audience started dressing down a long time ago. Why not the musicians? The tuxes are yet another barrier between the listener and the musicians.
4
The musicians aren't paying $80 or more to sit and watch the audience.
1
:) I would never look to Seattle for fashion ideas. We do not dress up here like other cities. There seems to be two guiding rules for clothing here. Self-expression and weather! Did you see it rain yesterday? :)
I have one suit in my closet and have not worn it in at least 4 years. I was on Cap Hill recently and saw some men in suits - they were coming out of the funeral home.
You will see a few casual suits down around the courthouse during business hours but other than that, people here do not get all gussied up like they do in Los Angeles or New York.
I am surprised the symphony does not show up in hoodies and sweats, Spanx, flip-flops, draq makeup, and with purple hair:)
1
This should be a no-brainer for the Philharmonic, an EASY decision, expediently made. As the policy stands it opens the door to discrimination against non-binary players, tells women their agency and comfort is worth less than men's, and probably costs female musicians a good deal more in costuming (unless that's subsidized?) too.
17
Not really. The dress code for men is traditional formal wear - hardly comfortable or practical for playing.
3
I personally have always found it a little weird when female harp or cello players have to straddle their instruments in a dress or skirt. So, of course I believe they should wear pants. That said, the idea of completely altering the more formal dress code is off-putting to me. I'm in my 40s and grew up getting dressed up for the ballet, the theater, opera and the symphony. My mother dressed us up just to go have lunch in downtown Chicago. I think dressing nicely and appropriately is a form of respect and I'm appalled by the way some patrons now dress- young and old. I've seen people in shorts at the opera! Sorry, but doesn't tradition and respect have any place in 2018? Yes, we should all be comfortable to a degree, but does that really require wearing sweatpants to a funeral? I always feel better when I know I look good and being respectful to others is a lost art. Maybe we should resurrect it.
37
I agree that it is nice to dress up, but I think women’s dress pants of the 1940s, Katharine Hepburn style, are quite a far cry from jeans, sweatpants, and pajama bottoms.
6
Amen.
I do wonder how many people who think men's dress clothes are uncomfortable have simply always worn poorly fitting dress clothes?
IMO, there's nothing constricting about a suitcoat, shirt, pants, and shoes that are not tight-fitting hand-me-downs or rentals, but are in the right size to fit you, whether you're skinny, medium, or plus. And a secret: suitcoats are the male answer to the purse!
7
This is a change in dress code that is long overdue. For inspiration regarding style, look to the Berlin Philharmonic.
10
I hardly associate dresses with female "work attire" anymore (pants and a blouse is really just about it these days) but I suppose the Philharmonic aims for "elegance" more than just "work" and formality. For example, at a dance, ball, or wedding, you really wouldn't see too many pants on women so I can see where it's coming from in having the dress requirement.
3
Long skirts and tuxedos remind me of the fashions you see in old movies on TCM. Those were the styles of the wealthy, glamorous set in the 1930s and '40s. Times have long since changed but orchestras simply haven't. A uniform "business casual" look seems wholly appropriate today.
Similarly, change could happen with soloists. When I see a violinist waltzing out for a concerto in some massive, flowing gown, I'm only reminded of how old-fashioned this art form can seem.
3
That's really sad. I, for one, really have no desire to see whole orchestras attired in Dockers and Polo shirts.
19
Doesn't have to be Dockers and Polos. A black or blue business suit would be fine, classy.
Doing away with tuxedos and ball gowns doesn't have to only mean Dockers and polo shirts. There's a solid middle ground of looking smart and tasteful and not like you're the butler on Downton Abbey.
Does wearing a dress help a musician play better? Such antiquated policy clearly demonstrates poor administration and a detached lackluster Board of Directors. It's time to hold back on New York Philharmonic fundraisers and donations.
11
My goodness - that’s extreme advice. Let’s keep a little class and glamour somewhere.
9
Please don’t financially starve the NY Phil over this issue.
2
Are people these days really that overwhelmed by following a traditional dress code? Gowns and White Tie have lasted so long because they look good. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Does every single sartorial tradition need to get trashed by the "flip flops and cargo shorts" crowd?
19
There's a time and a place for everything. I love flip flops and cargo shorts, but not when attending a classical concert.
10
Do you really think the choices are limited to “gowns and white tie” or “flip flops and cargo shorts”? There are plenty of other options.
If the required attire makes it more difficult to play the instrument, it makes no sense whatsoever not to change the dress code. I don’t know about you, but I go to the symphony for the music, not the fashion.
31
We're not talking about flip flops and cargo shorts, jeans and sweatpants. We're talking about equality of comfort for both female and male musicians. The NYP policy is bizarre, retrograde, ridiculous and really incredible in 2018.
1
As a former cellist, this needs to be changed immediately.
36
I can't see how it really matters what people wear as long as it represents the organization well and they can perform their jobs. I would be happy to trade in my "uniform" business suit for the comparatively casual clothes that my female peers wear. The fact is that organizations (I'm in education) have gender and hierarchy-specific dress codes. It isn't fair and doesn't make sense.
6
Please, overweight America is already out on the streets in stretchy pants and t-shirts. We don't need more of that.
9
I suggest that classical musicians can improve their playing immensely by adopting casual dress at concerts, following Mr. Zuckerberg, who doesn’t waste energy on formalities. And attract larger & more diverse audiences.
4
More casual, sure, but an orchestra needs to dress in a fashion that demonstrates its unanimity of purpose. I like the look of black pants and black shirts open at the neck for men, and corresponding all-black informality for women, which I have seen recently at some Cleveland Orchestra concerts. Audiences stopped dressing up for concerts decades ago. The day of tails, cummerbund and white tie, of the long black dress, are numbered, I suspect.
10
Why did audiences stop dressing up? I haven't. There's no need for tuxedos and ball gowns, but do we have to go straight to casual? Isn't there an agreeable in-between? I would never go to the CSO in shorts and a t-shirt or even jeans.
2
Do you attend concerts for looks or sound? I suggest you close your eyes & listen, next time. Who knows, maybe young people will start seeing something in serious music.
Someone must have finally noticed the illustrious JoAnn Falletta conducting the Buffalo Philharmonic while wearing a pantsuit.....what else would modern women wear while at work?
There's nothing uglier than a long skirt falling between the knees as one plays a violin. In order to keep the skirt in place, a woman must keep her knees locked together. How uncomfortable when the focus needs to be on the music--the tempo, the notes, the passion!
I would be terribly distracted by the folds of my skirt rubbing my legs and tickling me while I try to work through an emotional passage of a symphony.
Has any concert-goer ever noticed the women constantly adjusting the flowing skirts? You just know they're uncomfortable.
The same could be said for men wearing coats and ties while bowing and emoting with their violins.....
Everyone should wear black knit, crew-neck tops and black trousers. I'd go so far as to put percussionists in knit trousers and sneakers..........
29
Cellists: In a skirt, you have to figure out how to position the cello, the folds of the skirt and be aware of not catching the hem of the skirt under the whole thing when you stand up and sit down. In orchestra, as a kid, the girls in Catholic school had to deal with short pleated skirts and their cellos. Ridiculous.
10
I've never heard such a sexist comment! You're suggesting that women keep their legs apart and also that they be black! Horrible.
If you're playing the cello, your legs most certainly need to be spread apart.....Or, Afortor, are you merely being sarcastic?
It is very easy to snag a flowing gown with the bowing hand, and very unnerving and distracting.
The "dress" code for women is antediluvian and needs to be changed. And it doesn't mean that women will start showing up to performances in pajama pants.
Moreover, there are a number of people, musicians included, who happen to have been born female but do not align with the trappings of their assigned sex. They should not be coerced into acting contrary to who they are.
18
Yes they should.
5
How is this still a topic up for debate? I'd rather listen to the best music, rather than seeing musicians trip on their gowns. If people want class, enforce it on the audience
48
hard to believe it's taken this long.
26
I have played and sung in many fine musical organizations where women had the freedom to wear what they chose -- much like Henry Ford's Model T -- as long as it was black. Some chose to wear dresses or skirts, particularly women who were in the choir and only had to stand and sit, and some opted for pantsuits, women's tuxedos or tails, or leggings. There was a brief conflict in one ensemble as to whether or not black leather leggings were appropriate or not; the stage manager said no, but the CEO of the organization settled it once and for all when she came into the green room and said to the woman in question "oh, I LOVE your pants!"
The musicians in question were all world-class. I don't think the music-making suffered in any way whatsoever because some people wore different clothes.
27
Wait, what? This is 2018 isn't it, not 1818?
Heals & skirts are ways to keep us in our place. There's centuries of evidence to back this up (not supposition, evidence). Think about it? What do the most extreme religious institutions require - women in skirts! My mom used to make me wear skirts to church in a blizzard - b/c she said God would be offended if I wore pants. So showing my legs pleased God? Yeah, that made sense to a 5 year old...imagine the message I received & where I thought my value came from (my legs of course!).
43
I agree about heels. They're harmful and potentially dangerous to our health. But I'm afraid your feelings about skirts may just be personal baggage carried on from your mother. A skirt worn with flats (and socks) is really comfortable and practical. Cool in summer and, depending on length, warm in winter. Unless it's a tight skirt it's not constricting. I know several men who prefer skirts when they go dancing.
2
Try playing a cello in a skirt.
5
And the men should have the option of wearing dresses and gowns.
82
I have been to many cocktail parties and other events and seen beautiful, sophisticated women wearing pant suits and pants combined with gorgeous blouses. You can see photos of them in the Sunday Styles section of The Times. I doubt that the women of the Philharmonic propose wearing jeans or cutoffs. As a long time female subscriber to the Philharmonic, I say that it's past time for men to stop equating "class" with dresses.
71
Full length gowns are often much more expensive then a men's tuxedo and they require dry cleaning, so if they are not going to change the dress code, the women should be generously compensated.
31
Do you the think the guys just toss the tails in the washing machine? No, they also have to be dry-cleaned, and I have yet to see a tux made of as light a weight fabric as any number of concert outfits (gowns or otherwise) that I’ve seen female orchestral musicians wear.
NYPO seems to be a bit of an outlier; usually it is just “all black”for the women. Look at youtube for plenty of examples.
4
Take a full length gown and a tux to the cleaners and compare the cost.
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/nyregion/05cleaners.html
As part of the group that broke the dress code for women in NYC high schools in the 1960s, and paid dearly for it for a time, I say, brava!
44
BTW, as a violinist I've always found tails much easier to play in than a tux, since the coat is completely open.
15
To Kevin, who said the NY Phil should keep some class by barring women from wearing pants, I point to Marie Antoinette who wore riding breeches in the forests of Fontainebleau while hunting. Or the many highly fashionable women who doff beautiful suits or tuxedos to cocktail parties/black tie events. Now that's class.
And finally, when my Fairfield County grammar school sent a note home to parents saying girls could not wear pants to class, we rebelled. We wore pants. We were sick of freezing our buns off walking to school in the winter time in dresses and tights. Our choice, not ours.
28
Playing a concert at Lincoln Center is not hunting in a forest.
11
It was an example of a pants-styled garment being accepted in a situation in which a high standard of attire was expected. It does not suggest that hunting in the forests of Fontainebleau is the ONLY such situation, which is the logic of your argument. The notion that women in 2018 can show "class" only by wearing skirts is as outdated as neck-ruffs and powdered wigs.
5
I think you mean women who DON suits/tuxedos. What they DOFF is the little black dress.
3
I think the New York Philharmonic should keep it’s dress code and keep some class.
13
Check out the pictures of Cate Blanchett in the pantsuits she wears--classy! There is nothing classy, though, about women being hobbled by skirts and dresses while they play in an orchestra.
22
Fine, you play a cello in a long gown and see how that works for you.
24
What could be more useful to a professional female musician than advice from a man on how to dress?
Oh, wait. Advice on birth control.
31
There were many times when I wore a long skirt as a double bassist on stage and tripped, stumbled, or was otherwise hindered in trying to move around when playing or moving my instrument. These dress codes certain *do* get in the way of female musicians trying to perform to the best of their ability.
The idea that the NY Philharmonic doesn't allow women to wear pants in service of an "elevated experience" needs to be updated: there's nothing about limiting the ability of women to play comfortably in order to force them to wear an outfit that marks them as "elevated" women that contributes to such an experience for the audience or certainly for the women of the orchestra.
102
Fellow bassist here. Yep!
12
Try getting on and off risers and executing quick mute changes while in long skirts. It is hard enough to get situated with bass trombone in hand without the very real danger of toppling off a 2-foot high platform because of yards of swirling taffeta.
14
Exactly. Fear of falling on one's instrument is not conducive to providing an "elevated" musical experience.
5
I'm a long time subscriber to the NY Philharmonic. Quite frankly, I'm more concerned about how the orchestra sounds than how it looks. On that score, I'm very pleased. While no one wants to see the members of the orchestra look like they just came from the gym, nice pants for women are just fine with me. And while we are at it, why do the men have to wear penguin suits? A regular black suit would be more than acceptable.
85
Or a dress if that's what he prefers.
3
"On that score....," so to speak!
It's embarrassing, and harmful, that in 2018, a major American arts organization - (arts, jeez!!) - is so repressive in the arena of gender.
And the board members wring their hands about dwindling younger audiences?!?
96
Really? You think this is the obstacle to attracting younger audiences? As someone who grew up in and with the arts, I can tell you that the number one obstacle is ticket price. Number two is attention span and number three is ignorance.
66
The obstacle to attracting younger audiences is not the dress code itself, but the stubborn and stodgy attitude behind retaining an out-of-date dress code when every other orchestra has adapted. It's a safe bet that sort of thinking isn't restricted to just the dress code.
1
really, is there a dress code for me? yes there is. and suit, tie and jacket are not always comfortable.