Yes, tell them, because you never know if someone who lives in the home, or frequently visits the home, might have a problem with substance abuse. This might never have occurred to you, but supposing you were visiting someone and brought a bottle of wine as a gift, and didn't realize the household never had alcohol because a family member was an alcoholic. The gift would not be appreciated, right? All the more so if they don't even know you have it, yet the wrong person finds it.
1
Just my opinion: in as a host, once had a friend of a friend who stayed with me,, and I had said no smoking. Apparently she did not think that included marijuana.
And that person was not using it for theraepuetic purposes, i.e. it had not been prescribed. And I did not know if it had been acquired across state lines, and so forth.
I do understand it has so-called medicinal purposes.
1
Yes. Tell your hosts you'll be using medical marijuana if it's illegal in their state and let them decide if they'd like to let you stay with them. It is polite to do so. Surely if someone were planning to do something against the law in your home while visiting (no matter how benign), you would want to know about it, right?
2
I agree. Especially if one has young children in the house. I will politely say, oh my guest bedroom is not available, my aunt's nephew's sister in law, grand-mother is visiting those days.
I am not being not compassionate. If someone is my home, I DO need to know what their prescribed medications are on, if God forbid, they have an adverse reaction.Is s/he just laugihng hysterically over a joke on TV, or having a petit mal seizure.
1
The first letter writer should not bring illegal drugs, including medical marijuana (illegal throughout the U.S. under federal law), into anyone's home without their informed consent. It is in my view unethical to expose friends and family to any legal risk, even if slight, that they did not knowingly accept.
7
If legality is the core issue then no one should be using pot for any reason because it is illegal under federal law. But the ethics of law breaking goes back to whether the crime is understood to involve inherently evil behavior - such as stealing or assault, or not. It may be criminal to smoke pot but it is not unethical.
The issue is only minimally about whether it is ethical to use the drug (specifically, being in the hosts' homes under the influence), but primarily about bringing the drug into the hosts' homes.
3
This is going to ruffle some feathers, but I would want to know if a guest brings marijuana into my home -- be it in ingestible or smokable form. First, it is indeed still illegal on a federal level, and I could be held criminally liable if it is in my home. But second, after living for years in Venice, Calif., the armies of comatose zombies wandering the streets are not particularly among those I want as guests...there's a tendency to plop down and not move much, and I don't really want an inanimate blob on my sofa all day hogging the Netflix. I do have sympathy for this patient, but it really is something that puts the host at legal risk and could be annoying to experience.
3
The writer said he uses it at bedtime for sleep and pain relief. He's not going to blob out on the sofa all day.
4
Every last person I know who has a "medical" prescription is virtually useless while stoned, which in most cases, is 24/7.
I'm a MMJ patient in a fully legal state. I am not stoned "24/7", nor am I "virtually useless" when medicated (which I only do at night when I'm done cooking and am staying in).
2
You should definitely tell your hosts in advance and give them the chance to withdraw the invitations. It is especially important to do this for hosts in states where Marijuana is not legal and the law strictly enforced, and for hosts whose security clearances might be affected by having a controlled substance in their home.
6
Regarding bringing marijuana into someone's home: if the home is in a state where marijuana is illegal, you put yourself and the homeowner into a risky situation. If the homeowner happens to be under any sort of legal supervision, for example pretrial release, probation or child protection jurisdiction, unannounced police inspections can happen at any time with the consequences quite severe from loss of freedom to loss of children. As noted in another comment, many states are eager to use civil forfeiture to seize assets, including homes and cars wherein illegal substances are located. And, finally, even if no loss of freedom or asset forfeiture occurs, the legal bills for avoiding the consequences can run into the tens to hundred of thousands of dollars.
Further even if legal supervision is not a factor one never knows when an accident or other event may result in police presence in a home.
Seriously, it is extremely unethical to put your hosts at risk for those kinds of extreme consequences no matter how remote without their consent. If you must have your marijuana, either get informed consent from your host to bring it into their home or stay in a motel.
3
My shopping cart was hit in the parking lot by an old man backing out of his spot. He hit my shopping cart and drove away, completely oblivious to what he had done. Thank God my child wasn’t in the shopping cart at the time. What if it had been a stroller instead? People, please take action!!
5
In a very conservative state, Idaho, which does not allow medical cannabis, often the punishment from law enforcement is a fine. If a person can afford to travel for pleasure, perhaps they can afford to pay a fine to travel with medication.
3
I scrolled through many, but not all of the comments before posting this, but for Elle, I’m thinking that your community must have Lyft (my preference), or Uber. The profit from selling a car can provide many rides.
I recently had shoulder surgery and used a combination of buses and Lyft to get around. I was happy not to burden my friends with my transportation needs.
Another way to disable a car is to remove one spark plug.
3
What profit from selling a car? The only people who sell cars for a profit are the dealers.
Oh for goodness sakes. Unless you’re driving erratically. You’re not going to be stopped by a cop. And taking medical marijuana at bedtime is similar to taking a combined sleep and pain medication that you could buy over the counter.
Just bring your medication and paperwork and don’t worry about it.
4
Paperwork won't mean much outside of the state in which it is issued.
1
I said that to calm the worriers. The guy is taking his MMJ in pill form before he goes to bed. No one is going to catch him unless he tells them he's doing it. I still say to bring and use it and no one will be the wiser. He'll get a good night's sleep and be ready for the next days activities with his friends.
3
Regarding the lady with unfortunate health problems - in California, you can report someone to the DMV if you think they are no longer fit to drive.
They will then be called in for a driving test. I don't know if that is possible in your state.
3
Re: medical marijuana: my husband has a legal prescription to take it for a life long disorder, related to a seizure disorder.
The legal marijuana he takes is in the form of smoking it, but it is a form of the drug much weaker than most recreational marijuana. (Some contains no THC ----the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana---at all.
He recently made a trip out west, alone, and was easily able to find out which states have reciprical agreements regarding medical marijuana with our state. He only had to show his ID for legal use of medical marijuana.
See : https://www.massroots.com/news/medical-cannabis-reciprocity/
Not sure why if taking LEGAL medical marijuana in a friend or relative's home needs this much worry. It is a legal medication, no different than any other legal prescription, and FAR less dangerous than a legal prescription for opioids, as an example. (Also far less dangerous than either tobacco or alcohol, which are both addictive and threaten the health of the user, and cause death in many cases).
Besides this, most states now have legalized medical marijuana and many others have additionally legalized recreational marijuana.
The old fears and prejudices about marijuana have been debunked. It is not addictive, and is helpful for many people, including children with intractable epilepsy.
(Apparently Jeff Sessions is the last "True believer" for the old 1950's era beliefs in the inherent evil of marijuana.)
4
The problem is that it's ILLEGAL in the states the Bostonian is worried about. The issue is not whether or not it is inherently good or evil and/or whether it is better or worse than certain legal medications; the issue is that the host is subjected to some (mostly legal) risk by the guest bringing the medicine. Therefore, a major part of the question is about disclosing the drug.
3
It's really not a problem. He should bring it and use it discretely and enjoy a good night's sleep.
It's illegal everywhere under federal law. A guest in my home should not presume to subject me to any resulting legal risk without my consent,
3
The argument of it being illegal, especially when pot is used for medical reasons, is just ignorant today. Fact is, I've seen more alcohol related deaths and no deaths related to pot. Folks who drink excessively, and that is relative to the sober one in the mix, are far more dangerous than those who smoke pot. Because so many people drink alcohol, it's accepted everywhere anytime, no one wants to admit the obvious dangers of drinking, so many to list here, and when you compare that to folks who smoke weed....well, there isn't a comparison. I'd rather be with a bunch of pot heads any day than a room full of drunks. I would be much safer.
3
That it is illegal is not ignorant; it is of utmost relevance to the hosts. The hosts should be aware of this and have a chance to decline it being in their homes. Most likely, they won't care. But they should be made aware of it anyway.
3
That it is illegal in some places (and still illegal under federal law) is not "ignorant," it's fact. Good grief. This isn't a debate about its usefulness or arguments for or against its legality, nor about the advantages or dangers of alcohol compared with pot; this is a discussion about whether to bring an illegal substance into your host's home without telling them. Nobody asked you whether you'd prefer to spend time with potheads or drunks.
2
Your medications are no ones business. I would never disclose this nor expect someone to disclose to me. It's not like you are bringing pounds of marijuana for distribution it's t a few pills with a prescription. Even if for some crazy reason the police discovered it they would decline to prosecute such a case. Worst case they might seize it in certain states.
5
Re medical marijuana, this is a ridiculous response, particularly given the range of handling of this issue by different states. If a guest I were hosting had this issue, I would expect the guest to ask me. Anything otherwise is disrespectful of and unfair to the host.
4
Should hosts in states where marijuana is legal be told, too? The legality is only in the eyes of the state; it is still illegal under federal law. Though the federal government seems to look the other way, and the risks of legal troubles may be lower, the law is still the law.
And for a different perspective, swap out a legally-carried, safely stored handgun for the drugs. Should a guest who is licensed to carry concealed inform his or her host of a legally-owned handgun that is safely stored (locked up, unloaded with ammo stored separately, etc.)? What about other legal but maybe controversial items?
If I were a host, I would want my guest to declare anything that I didn't expect him or her to have (obviously, that takes mind reading on his or her part). I might not mind, but as the host, I have some right to know what is coming into my house.
8
Comparing medical marijuana to a gun is utterly ridiculous. Guns can kill. Marijuana can’t.
3
Yet the issue at hand is about bringing something illegal into someone else's home. I chose guns because (a) they're legal but controversial, and (b) they can be safely handled and stored, just like the drugs in question (meeting Dr. Appiah's standard of "surely pose no danger".
If it is not OK to bring something legal (and safely stored and handled) without disclosure, how can a case be made that it is OK to bring something illegal (even if safely stored and handled) without disclosure?
For goodness sakes. They're discreet pills. I've brought CBD/THC breath strips (held under the tongue until they dissolve) when I travel. I've flown with them. It's fine. Unless you think that the writer is going to suddenly go wild whilst on MMJ and wreck their house, or give the pills to the kid, (neither of which would happen), give it a rest.
Now, if we were talking about tobacco... No one smokes in my house or near me. Even though it's legal, it's not coming into my house.
In BC starting at 80 everyone has to go for periodic driver's medical exams...not free except for those with certain medical conditions. There are also periodic road tests...also not free. A member of the public can write a letter to the Department of Motor Vehicles or one can phone the car's plates into the local police department. I did that once after seeing a car being driven on a main street at about 5 km/hr by someone who looked absolutely ancient. It was daytime so it was probably not booze related.
Usually if a specialist diagnosis a person with dementia they yank their driver's licence on the spot in BC. So if Elle was seeing a neurologist the puzzle is why was that not done. If the doc did not do that and the person killed someone the doctor could be held liable.
7
Depends upon where you live. Here in Florida they are extremely reluctant to take an elderly person's license. Especially in the rural areas where you can't get to a doctor/hospital. Even in urban areas, they really don't want to take your license because there is very little public infrastructure (i.e. buses, trains) in order to get you where you need to go. It's sad.
1
Yes, we too had to deal the "Ellie" issue, of an elderly person who felt she could still drive safely.
Due to many things, including unknowingly bouncing checks, and so on, she was seen by a neurologist who, after two two-hour series of tests, diagnosed her with Alzheimers. I took this information to her long-time doctor, who REFUSED to take away her keys, though physicians are legally entitled to do so.
So, we, her closest relatives had to be the "bad guys" and take them from her. OF COURSE she thought she could drive safely. One thing any form of dementia leads to is an inability to see themselves, or their abilities, as others see them. It was a very sad and difficult period for all of us.
Due to the lack of good public transport, as well as her increasing symptoms, she was forced (against her will) to come and live with us, for about five years. (Even if we had had good public transport she could not have used it safely I believe).
I feel that all elderly persons should have some form of license renewal driving test, and also that those showing signs of dementia, should be tested for it.
You did the right thing, thank heaven. That doctor should be reported to the medical licensing board.
Elle-
Talk to both sons and then notify local authorities. It is not as simple as saying, "I think she's a danger on the roads", but it's a start. Almost daily I see someone behind the wheel who is less-than-fully-attentive and I see seniors gliding through stop signs, or speeding obliviously through parking lots.
When we see someone graze three or four cars getting out of the parking lot, we call the police and put it in their hands. It turns out that this situation is not a rarity, especially in "retirement" states. Good of the writer to be concerned, and I am hopeful that Elle's community has some for of ride-share or dial-a-ride so she is less a prisoner of her illness than otherwise would be the case.
6
Regarding Letter 1, there are several states that permit law enforcement to seize assets such as cars and houses that are 'used in the distribution or use of illegal drugs.' Many a young Jersey kid who comes into New York in search of a score has had to explain to irate parents why their car was confiscated. The patient needs to do his/her research on which states have this law and protect his/her hosts by not bringing medical cannabis into their home.
Regarding "Elle", I have had similar difficult situations with my mother and mother in law. For the latter, her state law prohibits removal of a 'kill switch', which keeps the car from being started normally, if installation is ordered by an authorized person. My husband had it done when his mother would not stop driving, and when she 'just couldn't get her car fixed' she finally stopped trying.
My own mother, equally stubborn, sideswiped a parked car in what she thought was a minor way. When my father took the car to be repaired, the mechanic told him that state law required him to report the damage to the police and refused to perform the repairs until my mother came in. He explained to her how much force had to be used to cause the damage, that she had committed a hit and run and that her misunderstanding of the law and the severity of the accident showed that she should not be driving. Coming on top of her children's repeated pleas, she was finally convinced and quit.
Mechanics can be very helpful in this.
33
You went to a very good mechanic who intervened for the benefit of your entire community.
4
About Elle and driving. I do not know what direction to approach this. For starters, what does dementia mean to this writer? There are many forms of mental empairment; not all of them effect driving ability. Then there's the fact that our culture (in the US) condones all kinds of driving behavior that is extremely dangerous, for example, driving while texting. You can kill someone doing that and get off scott free. Driving while under the influence? If you can afford a good lawyer, no problem.
This is all so hypocrital!
3
Suggesting that you can’t be punished because someone else has done the same or worse is a rabbit hole. By that standard, no one could ever be held accountable for anything ever. Danger is danger and we must hold people accountable every opportunity.
4
"In my view, so long as a law isn’t seriously immoral, it has a general (if overridable) claim to our respect, even when it’s silly."
You don't say expressly if you think this law is immoral or silly? In my view, with respect to medical marijuana it is immoral as it denies people medical treatment based on puritanical views of drug use.
But even for non-medical use drug laws deny people the freedom to choose based on those same puritanical views. Yes drug use can lead to bad behavior and those behaviors - if they harm other people - can be punished.
6
Yikes! these people must live in some police state somewhere. Don't worry. Be happy.
6
Exactly! By the comments it sounds as if raids by narc squads searching medicine cabinets for illicit pills are routine and to be expected.
I would wager the odds of getting caught by the law in a home with a personal supply of cannabis-containing tablets to take at bedtime are higher than winning the lottery and being struck by lightning ... at the same time.
1
I take issue with Tomi Um's illustration, of a guy in bed tossing a capsule up in the air and into his mouth, door wide open, and a smiling little kid in the hallway is enjoying the act. This might suggest the guy is entertaining the kid, which has nothing to do with the letter.
20
Good point.
1
I don't take issue with that. It serves as a reminder that your host may have children in the house - or possibly other vulnerable individuals such as an elder with dementia, or someone with a substance use problem - in which case being certain one's medicines or any other potentially dangerous item is very carefully secured where there's no chance it can fall into the wrong hands. I don't think the photo is suggesting the guy is PURPOSELY trying to entertain the child or would offer the MJ to the child. The image suggests the child happens upon this scene, where the guest is taking his pills right before bed - and the child could become curious.
The conduct of the woman diagnosed with dementia seems to meet the guidelines for referral for intervention by her state's Adult Protective Services agency, which is mandated to protect her from harm to herself or others (the caller's identity is protected, and she would be immune to legal action). The writer can request that the agency assess her risk for self-harm and take actions that will also protect the public.
13
It seems to me that almost everyone responding to the letter about Elle has no idea. In my mother's last years, she became lost a number of times, and my older brother, worried about his inheritance, took her license away. I had had many occasions to be a passenger in vehicles driven by one or the other of them. I would have taken my mother any day. She was very aware of what was going on around her, paid close attention all the time and always responded quickly and appropriately. Brother was inattentive, distracted and frequently raged and was dangerously aggressive.
I know who I think had no business driving!
7
Elle's car bears evidence of having hit/brushed something, she has a diagnosis of dementia and takes meds for it, she exhibits behavior other than erratic driving that is concerning--e.g. Iniviting strangers into her house, the LW does not want to ride with her, others have had to intervene after she gets lost... very different from your alert mom who got lost occasionally. Heck, I make wrong turns sometimes or once or twice passed my exit on the highway. (: But I have generally good judgement, do not use my cell at all when driving, responded well when I ended up with a flat and do not invite strangers home or engage in similar behavior--maybe more like your mom? In any case, Elle's situation is unlike what you describe of your mom's. She is a danger to self and others on the roads and can compromise her safety with her poor judgement with others. Someone needs to intervene NOW! The Alzheimer's Association is a good source of info, as is the local office on aging and adult protective services. But the FIRST course of action is to call the local son. Sometimes children do not see how serious a situation with a parent is, may witness something gradual so do not realize how it has worsened, may only understand that something has to be done when someone else--like LW--state that they will intervene. This son is coordinating his dad's care; he may think his mom's situation is less serious by comparison but underestimates how much it has worsened.
12
If your brother were so keen to inherit, I'd think he would hardly be seeking to protect her, or others. His many faults don't seem to have any bearing on the issue here; but you clearly have a great dislike for him, which may skew your views at least in this matter.
2
I'm struggling with the same drug, but my condition waxes and wanes (PTSD and MCAS). I use oral cannabis (please stop using the derogatory marijuana) twice daily but need to supplement most days with a vape pen. On the worst days I need concentrates smoked through a water pipe (again, this is medical cannabis and a water pipe, not pot and a bong!).
I recently traveled from NM to our neighboring state AZ. Since I have a medical cannabis card in NM, AZ reciprocates and I can legally medicate while visiting.
Unfortunately, I cannot fly my medications because of anti-cannabis hysteria. Of course, cannabis is readily available in all states, so it isn't that much of a problem, especially when visiting friends. It's just the stigma and the potential legal jeopardy that bother me.
That said, this wonder drug does wonders for me. It's helped me cope while I struggled to get a diagnosis for MCAS. Look it up, you might be surprised, it's a new diagnosis.
17
An elderly woman in my parents’ neighborhood struck and killed a teenage boy with her car. The risk of something like this happening far outweighs the concern for Elle’s potential loneliness. If the family is too conflict-averse to deal with this, perhaps some self-interest will motivate them- in the case I mentioned before, the dead boy’s parents sued the elderly lady, so bye bye inheritance to her adult children.
49
Elle reminds me of a Aunt who lived in another state. Her only child, a daughter, wasn't aware that her mother was bringing home strangers until they cleaned out her home. "Name Withheld" needs to be in touch with the son who lives nearby, not just for this reason, but for all the reasons cited in his letter.
28
Regarding "Elle" --
It's surprising nobody suggested that her friend contact a local agency which provides health care and social services for the elderly --
Besides the helpful advice the agency could possibly offer - they might be able to send a professional social worker to "visit" Elle and observe her condition -
They could also gently - but firmly - intervene to have Elle's driving to be a danger to herself and others - and have her driving privileges revokes - while, at the same time, providing her with free transportation to and from her doctor appointments and other basic errands --
The agency would also contact her children and explain to them that they need to become more pro-actively involved in heir mother's condition and care - while raising the possibility that if they refuse, the agency would be forced to take legal steps on behalf of their mother's well-being --
Call you local social services agency and ask to speak with someone who specializes in issues regarding the elderly...
16
When it came time for my husband to give up his license, I initiated a conversation with the doctor. While it was a huge change for him to no longer drive, my husband didn't want to harm anyone because of the effects of medication he took.
I knew that his PCP was a mandated reporter and indeed a few months later we got a letter from the Commonwealth saying he needed to be retested or turn in his license. He gave it up and now has an ID.
I know several people who drive who have Parkinson's which is progressing. A friend's husband got in an accident and totaled their car and for months after he lost his license, kept insisting that he could regain it but finally accepted reality.
The local Council on Aging and AAA have tests for if you should consider stopping driving. Alas, too often, things have to get worse before we can protect people. As always, err on the side of protecting innocents and bystanders on the street.
30
Re LW2: another option would be to contact Elle's doctor and make him aware of her deteriorating driving skills. In Ontario, physicians are required by law to report medical conditions that may impact on a driver's ability to drive. The government almost always responds by suspending or cancelling the driver's license. I'm surprised her doctor hasn't done this already.
21
It varies by jurisdiction. Some states require physicians to report unsafe patients, some do not.
7
Physicians are mandatory reporters when there is a medical condition that impairs driving. For example, a physician who knows about a seizure, an unexplained loss of consciousness or a physical or mental decline that affects ability to drive. Once reported to the DMV, that agency decides whether to require retesting before giving someone back their license.
1
There is no moral or ethical problem that the patient taking medical marijuana faces. He or she is in pain, being treated legally in his or her state for the problem, and is acting appropriately and responsibly securing the medications. Other medications are lethal if mishandled - warfarin is rat poison.
What the letter writer has is a legal problem. His perfectly moral and ethical behavior is illegal. The law is arguably stupid, but that won't keep him out of jail if he meets up with over zealous authorities. And it won't keep him - and possibly others - safe from civil forfeiture and other problems that arise from carrying contraband.
We can actions that are immoral but legal, moral and legal, and moral but illegal. The law is not based on morality. The letter writer should refrain from traveling or at the very least not bring contraband into anyone's home.
7
The ethical (& moral) issue is related to the risks associated with bringing the illegal drug into the hosts' homes. Whether the guests use of the drug is moral and ethical is not actually a concern.
9
The marijuana in this case is not in bud form, but in pill form: colorless and (I assume) odorless. If the pills were placed in a pill bottle of other medication the person was prescribed (a "legal pharmaceutical), there is almost zero chance of detection. If queried, all he has to say is that the pills are vitamins.
If I asked everyone who ever stayed in my house to divulge their prescriptions and dosages to me, I would have no friends.
47
This is the most practical suggestion yet.
10
Great except that doesn't solve every problem potentially associated with this situation. In fact, it could make certain dangers worse. These pills must be kept where children cannot possibly access them. If you announce that these are "vitamins," you could inadvertently be telling your hosts that they are not dangerous; a child could think, "They're just vitamins, so they're okay" and taste them out of curiosity.
I think marijuana should be legal, but in the meantime, I would be furious if a guest brought some in my house where it is illegal. That cannot be ignored. However slight the legal risk is, a guest should not bring that on a host.
36
The guest should leave it in his car when visiting out of state friends. Under no circumstances should he bring an illegal substance into someone else’s home where the homeowner could be held liable, especially when there are children involved.
12
Regarding "Elle," I can't fathom how she is allowed to drive and retain her license if in fact she sometimes gets lost while driving and is on dementia medications.
Not having met Elle, I can only suggest that the situation as described seems to call for an intervention by the son(s). Getting lost while driving and bringing home strangers puts her and others at risk, so it is up to her sons to intervene; the friend does not have standing to seek guardianship or other action unless the sons are unable or unwilling to do so.
Every state has a department of elder affairs (or similar title) that can provide advice and referrals in such situations; the sons should immediately explore these options, as well as have a conversation with their mother and her doctor to ascertain her actual condition and needs. The greater part of this burden will likely fall to the local son, but both sons should be involved in the process to the extent possible.
If the woman is unable to drive safely, her keys and/or license should be taken away (lots of on-line info on how to accomplish this humanely, and having a doctor recommend/require this may make it easier or more likely for Elle to comply). If she is incapable of managing her affairs and engages in unsafe behavior (e.g., bringing strangers into her home), placement in a care facility or guardianship may need to be considered.
This is a serious and complicated situation, and professional advice should be sought to resolve it.
17
Sometimes taking away keys just foments endless arguments. Removing a spark plug AND notifying her local auto repair shop NOT to fix the car is one way that has worked for folks with dementia. To do nothing is absolutely not an option; the lives of innocent others are at stake. Please get the sons onboard or call DMV.
15
Regarding "Elle," I can't fathom how she is allowed to drive and retain her license if in fact she sometimes gets lost while driving and is on dementia medications.
Not having met Elle, I can only suggest that the situation as described seems to call for an intervention by the son(s). Getting lost while driving and bringing home strangers puts her and others at risk, so it is up to her sons to intervene; the friend does not have standing to seek guardianship or other action unless the sons are unable or unwilling to do so.
Every state has a department of elder affairs (or similar title) that can provide advice and referrals in such situations; the sons should immediately explore these options, as well as have a conversation with their mother and her doctor to ascertain her actual condition and needs. The greater part of this burden will likely fall to the local son, but both sons should be involved in the process to the extent possible.
If the woman is unable to drive safely, her keys and/or license should be taken away (lots of on-line info on how to accomplish this humanely, and having a doctor recommend/require this may make it easier or more likely for Elle to comply). If she is incapable of managing her affairs and engages in unsafe behavior (e.g., bringing strangers into her home), placement in a care facility or guardianship may need to be considered.
This is a serious and complicated situation, and professional advice should be sought to resolve it.
5
As an Australian I have no thoughts about the medical marijuana and visiting friends but in relation to the lady who is driving but who suffers from dementia, there is an urgent need for an intervention. I have faced this problem with my own father (who is nearly 96) and as a doctor I have seen deadly consequences. It is of course, always difficult and sad to remove someone's license and vehicle.
Of course she should speak with Elle, and she should write and speak with her 2 sons. It is likely that Elle has a family doctor or primary care physician and it may be useful to write to him/her as well. Finally, in a small area, a quiet word at the local police department might help. I do hope it all works out.
25
"You surely pose no danger."
How does The Ethicist know this? Anyway Letter Writer No. 1 should consider staying in a hotel so he can be under the influence on his own. Whether one is high or not, staying in a hotel instead of another person's home may be less stressful to the host and guest.
Letter Writer No. 2 should speak with the local son about her concerns. The description of Elle's activities suggests she is no longer capable of understanding the risk she poses to herself and others.
7
LW1 - Your hosts are providing you a service, free of charge, out of kindness. You therefore owe them deference, and need to ethically inform them of anything that may make them feel uncomfortable, even if you believe it shouldn't. It is their home. If for some reason, whatever reason, they do not want medical marijuana in the house, it is their right to disallow it. The fact that you are even wondering whether you should tell them suggests you think they may not want the drugs in their home. Therefore, you are ethically required to inform them.
LW2 - Again, this is not an ethics question, but a Dear Abby style advice question. I wish Mr. Appiah would stop entertaining advice questions and instead concentrate on ethics.
9
Context is sadly lacking here. - Civil disobedience is an effective, time-honored manner to remove unjust, immoral, and oppressive laws. In doing so we follow the great tradition of the world's greatest advocates of justice, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr.
In fact, if it weren't for the massive, civil disobedience of the fraudulently enacted marijuana prohibition, we would not be near ending it and not having this discussion.
Was it "unethical" to disobey the U.S. laws that created and maintained genocide, slavery and discrimination? -- Of course, not.
Neither is it unethical to disobey laws that maintain the insane war on millions of good Americans who prefer near harmless marijuana over addictive, very harmful alcohol.
On the contrary, it is our duty to fight against these kinds of laws that create official persecution of innocent people. - BTW, nothing has so severely attacked the institution of our law as has using it in this criminal way.
Anyone who believes in ethics should stand up and shout: "The Emperor Wears No Clothes!"
Or more specific to our times, "The Marijuana Prohibition Wears No Legitimacy!"
4
True, civil disobedience has a powerful righteous record. But civil disobedience seeking to end slavery or genocide is far different from flouting the law to use marijuana or have it legalized.
And if this LW is engaging in "civil disobedience" by bringing his medical marijuana across state lines to locations in which it might be illegal, he solely is taking the risk if he involves only himself in the deed. But if he takes the marijuana into the home of a host in a state where it is illegal without telling the host, he is involving the host in his illegality and "civil disobedience"-- of which the host may want no part or might resent if not told. The host should get to decide whether to participate, not the guest essentially deciding for the host.
Also the chance of being found out is small but the issue involves more than being found out. The ethical issue is at least twofold: should the LW involve the host in an illegality without giving a heads up, and does the host have a right to know what people bring into the house, especially if they may have serious effects on young kids or teens? I'd want to know so I could decide how to proceed. No guest has the right to decide for me if I should participate in illegality. I get to decide that.
And despite what Appiah thinks, childproof caps can be defeated even by children.
8
Just curious. I assume that you never break the law, or at least never break the law in any way while visiting another's home. How in this unbelievably complex society do you even know your actions aren't breaking some law? And is unknowingly breaking the law better or worse than knowingly breaking a law you disagree with?
2
Keep in mind that civil disobedience is not trying to get away with breaking unjust laws, but a form of protest in which one willingly gets caught and suffers the legal consequences (e.g., going to jail). What brought down legal segregation was watching people being dragged to jail for no other reason than wanting a sandwich.
You can ask your host it's he or she is willing to go prison to protest the Injustice of criminalizing medical marijuana but don't be disappointed if he or she declines.
5
Mr. Appiah writes, "In my view, so long as a law isn’t seriously immoral, it has a general (if overridable) claim to our respect, even when it’s silly." I agree but what does that have to do with this case? A law that attempts to deprive people of medicine they need is seriously immoral, not silly.
7
Regarding the consumer of medical marijuana, the legal use of which varies from location to location, you owe your host the decency and courtesy of disclosing your use. It is up to your host to determine whether he/she is willing to take any possible risk, or would prefer that you stay--and use--at a hotel.
It is doubly important to disclose your use if there are children in the household because "tamper-proof" caps are by no means 100% effective.
8
The cannabis user should ask the hosts if it all right to bring the drug which is illegal in most states. Crossing state lines with it is illegal, but that is the choice of the writer, the hosts should have a choice too. The writer admits it doesn't work very well, so leave it at home. As for childproof, that depends on the ages of the kids. Teenagers might find ways to break into her stash. The ethicist, who has shown his lack of ethics in the past thinks it's OK to break the law because it's only a little bit. No it's not.
Elle needs to stop driving. She could kill or injure someone else. Report her to DMV. Speak to the local son and insist that he do something emphasizing that she could kill herself or someone else. She is endangering herself by bringing people home who could scam her out of her money. The people at the thrift shop are most likely ready to see her stop working there. She must be driving them crazy with her talking and mistakes. She needs assisted living before someone steals every last cent or she is sued by a family of someone she killed.
10
There is a legal issue with having illegal drugs in their home. You open them to asset forfeiture. There are also people in prison because “friends” brought drugs into their homes. Just because it’s yours doesn’t mean you can’t cause a problem for them.
30
I really feel this puts the burden on the already ill. Isn't there some way to bring some sanity to this situation?
So many people say stay in a hotel. How many hotels these days allow smoking or even vaping? How many specifically state use of cannabis is not allowed on their property? Please help me here because my symptoms of PTSD are not addressed by an oral dose, at least not any that I can afford on my retirement budget (insurance doesn't pay for cannabis).
Smoking or vaping certain strains of flower or whole flower concentrates is all that can really take that edge off when I'm stressed to the point where symptoms become apparent even to me. I'm far from alone in this.
As for the stigma of PTSD, Google PTSD and Mast Cell Disease. It really is a brain disease caused by brain injuries. Get over any prejudices and start helping solve this crisis.
3
An 81 year old woman with dementia who is still driving.. At this point her car is a lethal weapon. She can’t find her car in a parking lot, yet her “friend”never thought she might confuse the gas and brake pedals? Take the keys, and tell her they are lost, anything to keep this person off the roads.
36
In regards to Elle, I think the need to stop her from driving is critical. I would also recommend reaching out to a geriatric social worker, who can offer positive assistance about working with Elle so that she has the services and supports she needs to live as full and productive a life as possible.
14
Or her town or city's public health nurse.
1
I hope the marijuana traveler isn't coming to Texas. In my county they would arrest you if found out, and your hosts. Tell your hosts so they won't be caught unaware, and they would have the best idea how the local police react to medical weed usage. Leave it locked in the car except for the pill you are taking and don't go get it until you are ready to take it. That way your hosts have deniability, much more than they would if you brought it into their house. I know most of us think of marijuana as milder than a beer, but law enforcement does not.
28
On the marijuana issue, your main concern should be any possible legal or health risk to your host or your host's children.
Regarding risk to your host, get a legal opinion and be sure to disclose your usage to your host. If he/she is offended or worried about legal consequences you should stay at a hotel or with someone who doesn't care about possible risk.
Regarding risk to your host's family, be aware that children (and seniors) are often able to penetrate "child-safe" packaging.
6
Regarding Elle, the woman with dementia, from the description she is a clear danger to herself and others. Driving while diagnosed and medicated for dementia?!! Inviting strangers home?!! Such behavior requires intervention.
Elle's child or children would be the appropriate point of intervention because family members (or a guardian) will have to be the ones to intervene (take away car keys, seek guardianship, etc.); a friend really has no legal status in this matter.
Elle deserves to be treated kindly by her family, but she also needs to be dealt with firmly to protect her and others. Seeking guardianship of a demented family member is an extreme step, but is often required in situations as extreme as this one seems to be.
Every state has a department of elder services (or somesuch title); there are some free and many paid sources of information and assistance for those who need help dealing with a demented relative.
10
It is obviously no use to talk to someone as deeply entrenched in dementia as "Elle" appears to be, according to the LW. Why would this even be a viable suggestion?
The kids(at least one of them) dragging their heels on their mother's health issues. I would go ahead and report her to the DMV. It sounds as though she is not living in reality at this point.
I'm curious, though, as to why one of the doctors she sees can't report her. The neurologist obviously is involved in her care and knows what's what. How about her primary (if she has one)--surely her doctor(s) know she's not going to get better and is a danger on the road, even in her current condition. I would think they would have more legal strength than a friend because they see her in professional medical capacity and would know for sure she cannot continue to drive at all and never will be able to again. Why is everyone dropping the ball when this is a tragedy waiting to happen?
11
It's best for your hosts not to know, for their own legal protection.
2
I now disagree with myself and yield to the better opinion of Kathleen from Austin above (or below, depending--).
8
My medications are my business and my responsibility to keep safe. I would not give any host a list of what medicines I am legally taking. My concern is not being arrested, charged and tied up by a law. If medical marijuana is not legal to bring across state lines or to transport while flying , I would not risk my liberty to do so. If there is alternative I would use that or I would unfortunately forgo the visit.
6
oops "my concern is being arrested"
oops, my concern is running afoul of the law
1
If prescribed by a doctor, would medical marijuana be any more or less dangerous than the millions of pharmaceutical tranquilizers taken daily in the US? Would either be more or less dangerous to a host’s family or their container’s more susceptible to the curiosity of children? Would a guest be required to discuss their pharma use with their host for any other reasons than those already stated by the Ethicist?
And far as legal parity, I’d be curious to know how prescribed medications are considered legal or illegal when traveling internationally.
1
Somebody are considered very illegal abroad. You are subject to the laws in those countries, including confiscation and arrest.
5
thanks.
How is the "demented" (I believe this is the adjective describing someone with dementia) lady still allowed to drive?! Either something is seriously amiss or the concerned friend is exaggerating.
Also, can anyone explain what "Her car has several deep creases in it from turning too sharply." means? I'm something of a car guy and I've never seen "creases" in a car from simply turning. "Creases" come from hitting something! Maybe because of turning too tight, but hitting something is the important part to mention.
42
The declaration of contraband is a bit of a catch-22. For the sake of attempted brevity, let's ignore the debate on the legality of medical weed. At the location in question, it is an illegal drug. A few things to consider:
-Is the host in any legal jeopardy, even if unaware of it?
-Would the host care?
-Does the host know about the condition & use of the drug?
-Are/should other potentially riskier but legal drugs be disclosed? (i.e. opiods)
-And the big one: The likelihood of the drugs being a problem probably increases specifically because of disclosing them. If nobody knows they're there, it will only be an issue if they are found by chance. If they're known, people might specifically look for them.
Also, I can't say I agree with "no risk" in "You surely pose no danger, and the childproof protections for the drugs suggest that children face no real risk of consuming them." Kids can be smart and beat childproof packaging.
8
I would be inclined to tell, because, even if unlikely, the host could be in legal jeopardy if there was a search of their property.
As for the child-proof packaging, there are plenty of prescription or over-the-counter medications that are legally everywhere that could be a danger to kids. I doubt a guest would tell a host that they're taking Percocet or Tylenol for their pain. I think child-proof packaging is more intended to keep out kids who are too young to understand that pills can be dangerous.
7
Taking the medical marijuana is analogous to NOT sitting in the BACK of the bus. Do what helps YOU, you know the risks. Do not inform others. Do not fly OUT of States where you might be arrested, that's where you face the greatest danger from a " random " airport search. Good luck.
16
Do not inform others? Even your hosts whom you are putting at (admittedly, probably minimal) legal risk? If you did that to me and I found out, it would be the last time you ever saw the inside of my house.
2
Dangerous Driver : Talk with BOTH children, share your deep concerns. If they won't take action, report Her. She is very obviously an extreme danger to herself, and Everyone else on the roads. It's just a matter of time until a catastrophe occurs. Stop it.
83
My mother was in her early 80s when she started having minor car accidents, and her account of the accidents never matched the damage to the car. She was subsequently diagnosed with vascular dementia. I realized she needed to stop driving and I talked it over with her. Aside from the danger to others, I was afraid she’d get lost driving and end up in another state (happened to my friend’s uncle) or in the woods (happened to a senior in my mom’s retirement village and the woman died of exposure.) Mom wasn’t super cooperative so I had to remove the car. She then resorted to walking, in the dark and crossing a very busy highway, to the convenience store to buy ice cream! I only found out when I saw the convenience store brand ice cream in her freezer! Two family members of mine wouldn’t accept that my mother couldn’t drive anymore, and they undermined my actions at every turn. I ended up getting guardianship of my mother and bringing her to live with me. My point here is it could be life saving for the writer to talk to the woman’s local son. Not saying anything could be deadly.
17
And if the sons do not take action, a report to Adult Protective Services should also be made, for everybody’s sake.
12
Regarding "Elle," I can't fathom how she is allowed to drive and retain her license if in fact she sometimes gets lost while driving and is on dementia medications.
Not having met Elle, I can only suggest that the situation as described seems to call for an intervention by the son(s). Getting lost while driving and bringing home strangers puts her and others at risk, so it is up to her sons to intervene; the friend does not have standing to seek guardianship or other action unless the sons are unable or unwilling to do so.
Every state has a department of elder affairs (or similar title) that can provide advice and referrals in such situations; the sons should immediately explore these options, as well as have a conversation with their mother and her doctor to ascertain her actual condition and needs. The greater part of this burden will likely fall to the local son, but both sons should be involved in the process to the extent possible.
If Elle is unable to drive safely, her keys and/or license should be taken away (lots of on-line info on how to accomplish this humanely, and having a doctor recommend/require this may make it easier or more likely for Elle to comply). If she is incapable of managing her affairs and engages in unsafe behavior (e.g., bringing strangers into her home), placement in a care facility or guardianship may need to be considered.
This is a serious and complicated situation, and professional advice should be sought to resolve it.
7
"If you do nothing and the worst happens . . . "
And that wouldn't necessarily be if her friend hurt or killed herself while driving. It would be if she hurt or killed someone else.
52
The rule of law still applies in this country. If taking these pill across state lines is illegal, it is irrelevant whether the ethicist, you, or your host thinks it is ethical. If you believe the law is wrong, work to change the law.
26
I have a friend with MS who suffers pain that marijuana helps. It seems more ethical to me to help her pain than to see her suffer while I spend a year or ten trying to change Oklahoma law. Your point would enable great crimes in the case of a cruel political power in the land. It wouldn't be the first time, either.
15
Wow! I can't believe you just encouraged someone to take marijuana across state lines. Perhaps the risk of being stopped by the police in a private car and the pills being discovered is slight, but this is a federal offense. (Lots of out-of-state cars are stopped on interstate highways with dogs brought in if the driver doesn't consent to a search.) The current justice department (Jeff Sessions) has vowed to prosecute and punish drug violations to the severest limits possible.
This is not a moral question. It's a question of selective prosecution and a desire to punish personal behavior that someone in power dislikes. It doesn't matter if the law is silly. If a prosecutor decides to charge you, you are in a whole lot of trouble.
55
And if the letter writer is African American?
Their own life will be in danger from a potentially rogue cop.
11
Just remember marijuana in any form is not allowed on planes. Also consider a locked box or suitcase, and count your pills every day, especially if there are teenagers in the house.
15
To LW #2: Elle is seriously ill and she needs to be protected and the community needs to be protected from her. This means that she either needs to live with someone who monitors her 24/7 or she needs to live in a locked facility for people with dementia. This is very serious. Someone could get killed, or she could get swindled out of all her money by a stranger. The best thing for your friend is to deal with this immediately. Talk to the son today. Also talk with the local Alzheimer’s association- they are families who deal with these questions all the time and can advise you. Once your friend is settled you can visit her every day if you like or take her on outings, as long as she is able to enjoy them. Good luck!
43
There are both excellent day programs and full time assisted living facilities that cater to memory loss and dementia patients. At no time are they 'Locked up' although the doors do have alarms to let staff know they have a problem. Last I heard there is no medicine for Alzheimer's but there are lots of excercises and activities that residents are encouraged to participate in to keep them active and engaged.
Oh and staff does all the driving.
5
Seriously? The doors are indeed locked on dementia units.
2
You have no need to inform your hosts of any medical conditions, or any medicines you are taking, unless it might affect them. E.g., if I were an injection insulin user, and my hosts did not know this, I would want them to know the symptoms of high blood sugar and the fact that I have a prescription for syringes. In the case of cannabis tables, I don't see why they would need to know. Can you take leave them in your vehicle and take them outside their house? I sure am glad I like in a civilized state that allows for the use of medical cannabis.
9
DId you read the article? The person is doing some summer traveling that involves crossing state lines. It is NOT legal to carry prescription marijuana over state lines. Someone close to me does it anyway because she cannot sleep without her nightly dose of marijuana oil prescribed for a chronic inherited health condition. Cars get very hot in the summer, and that might ruin the meds, so leaving it there isn't a great idea either.
19
If the LW is flying that is also an issue because it is federal law that applies going through airport security. I would not want to explain to TSA what I were doing if they realize the type of medicine that is being carried.
6
I can't imagine that MJ tablets would look any different than a vitamin/mineral/herbal supplement in tablet form. TSA has enough to deal with already -- I doubt they're combing bags for MJ tablets. How would anyone know what these tablets contain? I think TSA would notice/confiscate a bag of MJ buds or vials of oil ... but edibles and tablets would go unnoticed.