Interesting that this is a call for parents to integrate when really its actually all on the kids and teachers. From my experience, the less-well-performing kids slow down instruction and the better-performing kids get left to their own devices. My daughter's "reading group" was herself sitting at her desk reading a book from which she was told to select her own spelling word list. She had virtually zero interaction with the teacher because she was "already ahead" and "didn't need the attention."
20
Setting aside 25 percent of seats for students with low state wide test scores gives these students opportunity they might not have. Great.
Caution - having worked with low income students for decades, their lower test scores often are the result of chaotic home environments, chronic absenteeism, and other challenges. They will need a host of additional support. Encouragement of Principal Zymeck should be more than verbal praise.
9
As an ideal the concept that receiving a good education can and will improve one's life in both a social and economic way is a noble goal. And one our nation should continue to pursue. But does the ideal fit with reality? Is it possible we have it backwards? With the correlations between success in school and family/community wealth quite high, i.e.more wealth indicates more success (at least academically) one could make that case. Maybe if we shift our thinking and focus more on improving people's economic situations within the family/community dynamic in turn it will improve their children's educational performance. When it comes to human dynamics, I'm not one who believes in such strict algorithms, i.e. A has an effect and causes B, or the reverse - B causes A. Instead as I see it A has an effect on B while , B also has an affect on A. Maybe we need a sea change in the way we approach this problem.
2
Umm, schools don’t have test scores, pupils do. Also, “black and Latino children” have much higher NYC per capita expenditures than white and Asian. You’ve never read that in the NYT because it doesn’t fit the narrative.
Good Schools? My son went to an old, dilapidated NYC public high school. Unlike almost every other American school, this school had no lockers, so students had to trudge up multiple staircases and take mass transit carrying all their books and clothing. Racially, spending was distinctly less than schools with other racial balances. Many students were from low income families with little or no ability to help with English.
Still, I probably should mention that this school, Stuyvesant High School, was often called America’s top high school.
13
THis article is untrue. There was a lot more shouting and very low support vs portrayed here.
7
I am fed up with reading this NYT articles always blaming white rich parents for the problems of minority kids. Let's start by saying I am Latino mother with 4 kids. One of them in 1st grade in a "mostly white" "Mostly rich" UWS kids. First rich parents send their kids to private school in NYC, most of the parents in this wealthy PA public school would have rather send their kids to private school but simply can not afford it. They try the best for their kids, worling with the school and worrking with them. My dauther is a high performance Latina, non white and Englis Lerner. Minorities can excel and outperform their peers like any child. They only need good teachers and parents that are involved with their academics. Let's repeat, I am latina, not white and not rich. Please DOE don't ruin middles schools for high performance Latinos!
12
Sigh. I appreciate your column, but this is off the mark and presents a meeting out of all context and devoid of some critical facts: "..angry white parents furious about a plan to help the poorest students gain access to some of the city's most desirable schools..."
Were the parents upset about poor students or unprepared students? I believe the meeting was about a plan to reserve 25% of classroom seats for students who did not demonstrate proficiency on the 4th grade state exams. Is that really a thoughtful plan for anyone, kids or students? Might there be a better way? And why is the city using 4th grade state exams as a criteria for middle school entry anyway? Might there be a better way?
Why are there so few "desirable schools?" Why isn't more attention paid to pulling up the standards of all schools and creating more seats in desirable schools for all?
Why is "diversity" so often defined solely as White, Black, and Hispanic? What about all the other minority students who attend the city's schools, and the city's "desirable schools?"
How many Bronx Science students travel an hour and a half each way from the far reaches of Queens? Took advantage of free test prep to prepare for the SHSAT? Are the first in their families to attend college?
And why is it so competitive to get into the "desirable schools?" Because there aren't enough of them. And the DOE is responsible for that which is why they'd rather cry racism.
20
A substantial portion of New York’s public school student body is comprised of Asian-American students; many of them are first-generation immigrants and experience quite extreme poverty. Yet these students appear, based on test score data, to perform at or above the level of their white peers. I have yet to read an education story in the New York Times that makes any serious effort to draw conclusions from this data, because to do so would mean transgressing against American liberalism’s strongest taboo and asking whether factors other than racism/segregation are responsible for the persistent underperformance of many black and Latino students in our city’s schools.
26
Laws will never dissuade folks of all colors from moving their kids away from schools that do not meet their own expectations.....look at Central High in Little Rock. Segregation was halted there by federal troops in the 50s. Go look now. It is 80-90% minority and the immediate neighborhood is not mixed very well and is crime infested. That is called white flight and is perfectly legal. You will never achieve the balance that some lawmakers/parents envision. My parents pulled my sister from an underperforming mixed school that she was bussed to on the other side of our town. She went on to get a quality education at a private school. AND their property taxes never went down to not utilizing the public schools. So who profited from that? It is called choice, and parents are entitled to use that tool as ell as lawmakers. As for the comments on behavior problems, that exists. I did the same thing when I lived in St. Lucie County Florida rather than send my daughter to a school in a crime ridden neighborhood a 45 minute bus ride away. And I paid school taxes as well as tuition. and I would do it again to ensure she got a quality education rather than going to a school 45 minutes away. BTW, there were 2 elementary schools within 2 miles of our house.
7
Nothing wrong with keeping high achieving children separate from those that are not. Simply being less fortunate doesn't, in my mind, make you worthy of a top performing school. New students should be tested for aptitude and behavior then admitted, not the other way around,
Or
What will happen is, which did in my case, the parents simply take the achievers out fo the school, place them in private and the former high functioning school deteriorates into another failed one.......that simple.
Cute story but doesn't stand up in the court of reality....
15
As usual, the most popular comments for an article like this are the ones that wave their segregationist flag proudly. As a parent who had the same feelings when our family joined eight others with kids who attended the nearly all white P.S. 321 in Park Slope in sending them to the nearly all minority Park Slope Collegiate five years ago, I discovered the value of an imperfect but racially diverse education. My son had no trouble getting into the high school of his choice and his presence at PSC helped to break the stranglehold of segregation at one of NYC's finest middle schools. To other fearful parents I say "try it, you'll like it".
5
(Californian in the field of education & advocate for equity.)
I find it fascinating and revealing how many of these comments equate or assume the black and brown children who enter the high-performing schools will bring "behavioral problems", cause the school to be "unsafe", lower the overall performance(/weaken) the school, etc., etc., instead of being curious about how much better a whole bunch of young students may do in a school with resources, low-turnover and a more welcoming, inclusive environment. How it would likely be the best part of their day. These children are no less (inherently) bright or capable than the white, affluent children, just because your lens thinks that. Maybe that's part of the problem.
Where do you think students who don't do well or drop out go? Think carefully about whether you think that's 'your' problem.
7
So, if the system is overly black and Latino already, and it is. Perhaps, we need to think out of the box. Why allow the geographical boundaries of NYC to interfere with the educational mission of these children. Diversity is a core value that benefits all people.
With that in mind I have a novel idea to use the existing infrastructure of NY to benefit all the children of NY.
The children could be sent via LIRR and Metro North to the suburbs of Long Island and Westchester every morning, and sent back each evening. I mean those trains are empty leaving NYC in the AM and empty coming back in the PM.
Imagine all those inner city children sitting next to their wealthy and advantaged peers in overly homogeneous Long Island and Westchester.
4
That would do wonders for property values in Fairfield County.
Also, might there be a negative side to sticking some of the most vulnerable and behaviorally challenged children alone on trains for hours a day?
Perhaps more energy needs to be spent on figuring out how to fully and equitably fund their own local schools and provide them with the specific resources they need than moving them around so they sit next to the desired number of white kids, something which will be futile.
2
Wow, how cynical.
Maybe, both groups would benefit from the experience of spending time together.
And, the NYC schools are well funded. Perhaps, the kids would benefit from seeing life on the other side of the tracks. Some of the good qualities of LI and Westchester might rub off on them. And, the privileged children of the suburbs might develop some empathy for their inner city compatriots.
Sounds like everyone could win. Even the cynical denizens of Fairfield County.
This is amazing! What a story! Go Principal Zymeck! Schools absolutely should be desegregated. Shame on parents of privileged children who think otherwise.
3
With both a child at the elementary school alluded to in the article, and another at one of the 'high performing' middle schools, I have skin in the game. My younger child is in 4th grade and will be the first class to apply using the new methodology (10-25% floors admitting children scoring below grade level on state English and Math tests). I am also Latino. I would love nothing more than to see more Latinos and other minorities next to my own children, and I'm happy that we're finally having a real conversation about diversity and segregation, but all the vilification of white parents is missing the boat. Instead of talking about years of DOE and City Hall failures - why are so many kids below grade level? why are there so many low performing middle schools in district 3? (look at the numbers on the DOE's own site) Why are we allowing more and more ultra-expensive high rises to be built taking up scarce seats in our best schools? We instead are treated to a drumbeat of parent-bashing. Bash away, but this diversity initiative won't create new seats at our best schools or fix/fund poorly performing ones. None of these articles note the DOE's appalling lack of details - how they will support students? teachers? what resources (funding!) will be brought to bear? For me, it boils down to my own child's chances of getting into a top school are now much worse and I've no details on how DOE will work to improve the situation. How does a parent get behind that?
14
The classroom is the one arena where the underbelly of liberals and progressives gets exposed. Thank you for brining this dirty-little-secret to the fore.
2
Don't forget that there can be a very big difference between the classroom assignments within an individual school. It's ironic that the children who hear a limited vocabulary as infants and preschoolers will almost always be placed in a slow moving classroom because, well, the thinking is; if they didn't learn more vocabulary already they must be slow learners. This is incorrect. They have a small vocabulary because they haven't been exposed to very many words, not because they have an inability to learn quickly. These are the kids who need to be accelerated, so they can catch up.
1
This talk about "segregation" is all about politics and none about education. Smart kids, black, white or Asian, learn quicker and like to be challenged, those less gifted require more time and an easier curriculum. Smart kids would get bored in regular classes and lose interest in schooling. Why not encourage intellectual curiosity, build schools for smart kids and let them fly? Dumbing down education to the lowest common denominator is what got up Trump in the first place. The difference in the demographics in the G&T classroom is not because of "segregation", it is because of socio economic factors that the city cannot even begin to address. Communities have to take on those issues and assign priority to them. Education is a privilege, and if the tests are racially biased, then change the tests, but don't put kinds who read novels with those who can barely string a sentence together. That's a travesty for education. Any teacher will tell you about the challenges of teaching students of different levels in the same class and everybody is unsatisfied. For some, the pace is too fast, for others it's too slow. Segregation is the right approach to education, segregation according to the learning abilities, everything else is the political correctness nonsense.
10
Education is a right, not a privilege.
2
I want to clarify what the article is trying to get at. Diversity does not equals lower performance because of race. It can, however, equal lower performance or test scores because many minority communities are starved of resources. The white mother in the video talks about how she spends $5,000 on her son's tutoring. This is obviously not an option for most families. So, one of the many flaws of standardized testing is that often not-as-bright kids are testing higher than their IQ because their parents are able to invest big money into having a tutor help them memorize material, while an intelligent student who lacks educational resources and support may score lower. Segregation by race is illegal, but there are other ways to accomplish this. In NYC schools, it is often done by test scores, because they know minority groups can't afford to compete. Where I grew up, you didn't have to test to get into school, but the average cost of a home in the district was over $1 million. In my school of about 1,300, we had less than 10 black students. No one should be blaming minority groups for not being smart enough or not having enough money, because it has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with routine, systemic segregation in this country.
3
You don’t need a crystal ball to predict this outcome. As soon as bad kids from bad homes start causing trouble, the high achievers’ parents will pull them out and put them in private school. I’ve seen this scenario a million times. A once great school will be great no longer, and will get progressively worse as more and more high achievers leave.
13
TD, you are correct. Central High in Little Rock in the 40s vs. now.
Only the bus companies prosper with de segregation
3
If you require a high-performing middle school to admit a significant number of low-performing students, there are two possible outcomes: 1. There will be two tracks--an honors track for students who can cut it and a lower/remedial track--and these tracks will be separated. or 2. The parents of the low-performing students will insist that that the low-performing and high-performing students be integrated into the same class, in which case the classes won't be challenging enough for the high-performing students.
In scenario #2, the high-performing students will likely flee, gradually making the middle school a lower-performing school. The high-performing students in scenario #1 may flee as well, if there are behavioral problems that cause the school to be unsafe or if a lot of resources are being disproportionately spent on the lower-performing students.
What proponents of desegregation seem to fail to understand is that you can't force upper-middle class white/Asian parents to send their kids to the same schools as kids of impoverished, uneducated parents. You can perhaps force them for a limited amount of time until they get their ducks in a row, but these parents would do almost anything to not compromise their kids' education, including moving to the suburbs and scrimping and saving to send their kids to private schools.
30
In the early 70s, Long Beach was told that it needed to integrate their schools. Since parents did not want to be forced to bus their children, the city came up with an innovative plan.
Each of the elementary schools would have a unique philosophy. One remained a traditional school. One became an open school, and one became a more fluid school where grades 1,2 were grouped together and grades 3/4 were grouped together. Grade 5, if I remember correctly, remained as is.
Politics were put aside as parents chose the school depending on their own child's needs. Thus, the schools became integrated because it was the parents' choice to bus their children.
3
As a public school teacher and a progressive New Yorker I want to see our city and country do better in regards to socio-economic and racial equality. I want to see more NYC schools looking as racial diverse as mine. But I can't support this plan because it uses the wrong metric to achieve that and will have a perverse incentive for students to underperform so as to be admitted. Instead of giving these seats to students of any race or income who have a bad academic record we should give those seats to students from poor and minority families who have performed well. Reword those who have done the most with a difficult situation and not those who have done the least regardless of their situation.
26
To be fair to the parents, the were not arguing about adding the underperforming kids, they were angry that some of their children will be forced to go underperforming schools to make room for those students.
30
Fascinating as more and more American schools are becoming segregated, especially charter schools. The KIPP chain of charters are incredibly segregated, running at about 97% of one race (usually black).
What's interesting is that many parents see this a good thing where their child is not the only black child, will be see in context of other black children, and, most of all, the parents made the choice of school.
I'm not understanding how choice trumps the issues of segregation but apparently, that's the direction our country is going.
1
Retired teacher from long ago. Taught in an urban school district on the borders of the Bronx. The problems of class, race, economics, and of course money for schools are as contentious now as my early days as a teacher and later as a parent facing similar problems discussed here.
What to do? First, middle school integration ,a noble idea, requires star administrators, dedicated staff, resources,lots, or is doomed to failure or mediocrity at best. Students are already on the pathway to success or failure. We need to start earlier than ms.
LBJ fifty years ago headed us in the right direction- Head Start. Well designed early childhood programs, full time school days for our three and four year little citizens in training with competent, caring educators and a curriculum that instills love of learning and how to become active lifetime learners are needed to level the playing field.
There's lots more to be said. But a serious effort to give all our kids a good chance at success needs to be started at the youngest possible age. Kids sponge up knowledge and ideas like at no other time in their lives. They also are given the tools of socialization to develop to their fullest with other youngsters and adults, too. The NIMBY mentality will fall away when parents see children succeeding and developing in the academic and social arena.
15
Best response so far!
Start this program at the earliest levels, and provide seats for all kids in early childhood.
1
Nothing like leading by example,especially pertinent if it involves educating the people, so their talent can make a difference, the freedom to think for themselves, and the imagination to see in the ordinary the extra-ordinary. And those in power, however temporary, have the unique responsibility to promote our potential...for ever.
2
If the fact that many NYC schools are overwhelmingly minority is a problem, that problem that cannot be solved so long as there are so few white students in the school system. White (non-Latino) students comprise roughly 15% of the NY public school student body. So, if students of all races were bussed all over the City to ensure that every school's student body approximated the racial makeup of the system as a whole, every school would be overwhelmingly minority.
12
Citywide 15.01% white, 31.07% white + asian. The whitest borough schools (S.I.) are only 45.7% white, 55.37% white + asian. If you exclude S.I. the other 4 borough schools are 13.13% white, 29.57% asian. To be blunt there aren't enough middle-class white and asian kids to spread around anymore to satisfy the upper-class NYC 'progressives'.
NYCDOE stats (excel) - https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/dd504571-f84b-4151-bede-f521539cd7d4
4
This is a trade-off between fairness to most and self-interest to some.
Everyone wants the same thing for all children; a great education no matter where they go to school. But the unfortunate reality is that, in the short term, there are only so many seats at higher performing schools. Thus, the perception, and perhaps the reality, is that in this short term (10-20 years?) it's is a zero-sum game with any advances made by poorer minority students coming at the expense of wealthier white students.
Fairness dictates that the relatively scarce resource of seats at high performing schools be equally distributed among all. Reality says that if people of means are unhappy with their school choices many (although it's unclear how many) will just leave the public school system thereby further segregating the system and, potentially, taking the resources with them.
5
But what happens if the higher performing schools are the way they are because these wealthy parents made them that way — they supported the school with their time and money? What you’re saying is, “thanks for your efforts to make this school great, now let’s kick your kids out of it and bring in some disadvantaged kids.” Yes, that might sound fair but then why would anyone ever bother to invest in a public school again, knowing that the rug could be pulled out from under them?
4
My three kids attended a public high school in Westchester County where a substantial amount of the students spoke English as a second language and a high proportion of the student body qualified for free lunch- so this was not an oasis of white privelege. Now, all graduates, I see the benefit they gained from the exposure to the diversity that defines our district. If nothing else, being tolerant and open is something we all need to succeed in life...
15
Remember the old Middas Muffler commercial , "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later?"
The Baron Trumps of America will always be shielded from the realities of life. However, the children of the other 90% will deal with the 'unwashed' of America as young adults. In a barracks, dormitory, on the street, in the workplace, etc, etc. So much time and effort expended to boost the 'favored' children. With no realization that 'the others' will always be with us.
5
I lived a variation of this argument long ago in a New England school district. Back then the district was almost 100% white, so it wasn't about race. The issue was tracking: whether it was appropriate to continue to group the best students together, or mix up students of different abilities. Even though back then I preferred and fought for the status quo (which was best for me), I do recognize it's a difficult question, because who wins and who loses changes based on what you choose - better students do better separated from the rest, while worse students do better when they are mixed in. There is no magic solution, which benefits everyone. So Ms. Gay's, "It was enough to make you want to cheer" seems entirely misplaced to me, a rather deplorable example of the American tendency to moralize their personal preferences.
9
In a comprehensive study done in the 60's, it was found that if the minority population in a school did not exceed roughly 30%, all went well. The minority children gained well, and the non minority did as well. If the percentage of minority got too much over 30%, it worked out less well for both groups. And, at that point non minority parents pulled their children out of the school and sent them to private schools.
11
Interesting recurring theme through first couple of dozen most-recommended comments...
"No one can be faulted for not wanting to risk or experiment with their child's future education"
...no one seemed to have any problem risking or experimenting with everyone else's present-day health care
And - for every anecdote about a pre-existing condition, will come "right" back at you with five - about children who were the better for such risk and experimentation...
Actually, some charter-school parents already have - right here in the less-recommended comments...
PS
Go back a while - and the whole system was outstanding...
PS 67, for instance...
Ms Negrin and Ms O'Neill - exemplary kindergarten and first-grade teachers, respectively...
Back then, though - only way to get a person into space was on a Russian rocket...
Good thing our public-sector K-12 system made sure that would never happen again...
3
I almost weep for the NYC Public School System.....once the most incredible, successful school systems ever created on planet earth....able to function in the WORST neighborhoods and produce some of the greatest minds and greatest doctors, lawyers, engineers, leaders, and followers we have ever known.
Then came Teachers Unions....and Forced Integration. With the 1970s and imposed Central Planning, usurping control of education away from the smaller communities....came a radical decay of the effectiveness of the NYC Public School System. Goals were adjusted to make Social Engineering the priority over actual Readin', Ritin', and Rithmatic. Oh, sure, the Union LEadership throws reams of statistics about who is over-worked and under=paid and the need for more armed guards and lockdowns and metal detectors,etc etc.....but isnt the real problem is that the schools have deliberately been transformed into giant SuperMax Containment facilities designed to make a faceless mass of easily controlled children comply with instructions from a government representative? Be Honest. No More 10thGrade Civcs Class with the film "How A Law is Made".
8
I don’t know what you’re talking but you sounded like someone who doesn’t understand the meaning of public education. It’s meant to produce educated, productive citizens - operative word being citizen meaning the government has a function and responsibility in the process.
And if you want fewer guards and no metal detectors, I’m with you. I think it’s an awful situation for our kids. But don’t blame the Teachers unions, blame the NRA who don’t seem to care how many children are killed in their classrooms as long as they can sell more guns.
7
He is saying that public schools in NYC used to do an excellent job educating children in the city regardless of their economic or racial back ground. I also think he is saying that the rise in power of the teachers unions and a perceived switch in the primary mission of the education system away from actually instructing to a mission of trying to right social wrongs that public schools are no longer good at actually teaching.
2
I truly hope this article is true, because from what I've witnessed in NYC, it is middle and upper-middle class white parents who are fighting to keep the school segregated. NYC liberals talk a good game, but when it comes to their kids going to the same school as less economically advantaged black and brown kids, they are no different from the white parents of the 1960s American South.
Again, I hope this article is true.
38
How many children are in nyc schools are illegal aliens or are the children of illegal aliens? Asking taxpayers to fund their educations is unfair and takes money away from underprivileged kids who are US citizens or legal residents.
12
If this kind of thing were happening in Alabama (parents protest against integration), the Upper West Side parents would be the first to holler about racism, white privilege, Trump voters, etc. But when they have the chance to practice what they preach at others... well the results are obvious.
16
It is a little more nuanced as the objection of white parents is not based upon race but is instead based upon having to expose their kids to the consequences of concentrated poverty. I don't think many parents have the same qualms or issues with middle class or upper income minority students.
12
People are people, wherever they live. Most try to do the best they can, many fall short and need help. Trump is still a horrible President and most of his supporters, those who aren’t in the top 1%, made a bad choice.
The Mayor shares with Trump an occasional willingness to repeat something that's false - surely knowing that it's false - because it keeps a key part of his base happy.
The Mayor repeats - in the face of facts that prove him to be mistaken or lying - that de facto segregation in public schools grows out of de facto residential segregation in the City.
IF that were true, he might be right (looking at the Boston experience among others) that something more ambitious/aggressive than welcoming districts to try local remediation could turn out badly - for all.
But the Times published a crystal clear study yesterday showing that that 40% of *ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENTS* city-wide do not attend the school closest to their home.
This, of course, all but proves that he's playing - as he did when he was a Brooklyn "pol" - one ethnic group against another. Bluntly, he represented (at the time) a community with a large Ital.-Amer. population, and while they were separated by a mere highway from overwhelmingly Black Red Hook, they happened to feel just as "similar" Irish-Americans felt in the Mayor's childhood Boston - "we got ours, and we want to keep it that way."
The fact that our self-described "liberal" Mayor all but says, "Separate need not be unequal" is, of course, even more damning. (In NY in 2018?!)
Let's hope that the Mayor doesn't can the new chancellor for telling the truth, precisely following the Trump/Comey script.
Sadly, it would be entirely in character for him.
2
As a teacher at a racially and socioeconomically diverse middle school in Brooklyn, and a District 3 resident:
I was saddened to see how blind the parents in the video are. The parents of white and affluent students at my diverse school know that diversity enriches EVERYONE, including the more advantaged. Learning to know and understand others from many walks of life is an education that test scores can't measure. You won't succeed without it. Everyone involved comes out with a richer knowledge of people, life, and our world.
So hopeful to see what changes Chancellor Carranza will bring to our schools. So hopeful that more parents from all backgrounds will demand an integrated education for their children! All children deserve this. So proud of my vote for Helen Rosenthal, and hoping her support for school integration will change things. And, so optimistic that the tide will turn and our mayor will get on board. Better late than never.
If you are a parent who received a segregated but "advantaged" education, have you ever wondered what you lost? Don't you wish your children can have a chance you never did, to know how to work with people from all backgrounds? This is the dream.
8
Fair point, I’m not a parent. I don’t think there’s any way to know how that will affect me until it happens.
But, are you a teacher in an integrated school? I am, so I have witnessed the benefits to all students. If I hadn’t had this experience I wouldn’t feel as passionately that integration benefits all, so now that I know I try to spread the word.
6
Wow, thank you for sharing your story. I’m sorry that happened in your school, it sounds awful.
Hopefully as a society we will find a way to move forward.
I'm a white public school teacher AND a public school parent and I support greater integration.
My priveleged white kids attend a large public high school which is approximately 40% Latino, one third African American, 15% Asian, and less than 10% white. Most of our socio-economic and racial cohort would describe our school as bad and assume they would be harming their children by sending them there. The school has many challenges as does the district. However, my kids are having a great experience. They participate in leadership, sports, and arts activities. They have learned to help other students and receive help from other students. They have learned to understand and appreciate classmates from different backgrounds. I would argue that attending a diverse public school has not hurt them, rather it has helped them. Next year, my current senior will be attending one of those almost impossible to get into universities, as will quite a few of his non-white classmates.
16
For those who believe that increased funding for underperforming schools is the solution to this dilemma, I refer you to de Blasio's Renewal program, which as of late last year spent $582 million over 3 years on 57 NYC schools at risk of closing (mostly Black and Hispanic attendees) to try to improve outcomes. The program, in part, increased the school day by an hour, hired social workers, taught teachers, and created programs that made the school the center of the community.
Initial results showed a 3.2% increase in the reading pass rate and 1.5% increase in the math pass rate. Before you get excited, this translated to overall pass rates of 15.9% and 9.4%, respectively, against pass rates in excess of 60-70% in the UWS/UES school districts.
As reported by Nikole Hannah-Jones, desegregation had a substantial impact in lifting up outcomes for Black students during the era of desegregation. Recommend reading her work.
To be sure, the primary concern of integration is not maintaining or improving upon the overall quality of a particular school. It's about lifting up the outcomes for Black and Hispanic kids. This is the key metric.
This, of course, rankles out of fear of the possibility that your own kid's experience might suffer. But the DOE has to consider opportunities for every kid in a District, including your poor Black neighbor's. And while you can value your own kid's experience more than that of your poor Black neighbor's, the DOE rightly cannot.
7
Who is responsible for helping poor, disadvantaged, and minority students? One would think that was the responsibility of the city, the department of education, the principals and the teachers whose salaries are paid for by the public. That’s their job, after all. But some folks seem to think it’s the job of wealthier and more academically advanced white students to somehow assist their less fortunate peers by sharing a classroom with them. I’m sorry, but it’s not my child’s job to help educate other children. And if I’ve managed to navigate the NYC public education system to get my kids into decent schools, that shouldn’t be viewed as a “problem.” That’s just me following the rules. Shame on the principals and bureaucrats for trying to make me responsible for THEIR failures to teach disadvantaged kids.
30
No it is the job of the city and the public education system to institute policy and design a system that doesn't segregate intentionally or unintentionally. You and people like you create a problem by complaining about it and acting that you and your privileged lot are entitled to the status quo. Decent human beings advocate for the wellbeing of the entire community and see themselves as citizens who are part of governance. It is not just "THEIR" problem. It is all of ours.
10
We’re entitled to expect that the city won’t change the rules on us after we’ve invested our time and money in securing a decent educational outcome for our children. We paid more to live in good school districts. We donate even more money to ensure that our local public schools are well funded. We invested our time and energy serving on the PTA, volunteering at school events, organizing after school programs. The DoE established those rules, not us. We just worked within the DoE’s system to make our local schools better. And this, this is now considered a bad thing? Why? To what extent would you hold me responsible for the educational outcomes for all students in NYC? And if there are issues with other schools, whose fault is that? Mine? Or the DoE’s?
21
How is it that you are entitled to a system that doesn't change? Many of us who put our energy and money into our schools have managed to do it to serve the good of all children in our communities, not just our "own." There are many people who have the resources to support a school who also recognize the privilege in that and are willing to extend the benefits to the children who come from communities and households where that isn't available. Fundamentally, maybe we can agree that our education system sets up for inequality by being terribly and inconsistently underfunded and relying on property taxes. But the choice system laid over that foundation has perpetuated inequality. And I for one, don't want to live in an unequal society even if it benefits me. Despite what our latest government represents, most of America is trying to move on from that way of thinking.
I wish my son's middle school on the Lower East Side had a computer room like the one on the Upper West Side!
How have we allowed our politicians to get away with providing a school system with so much disparity??!!
14
It's beyond absurd, and patiently offensive, to say that diversity equals lower performance. I have no issue with diversity but simply letting kids who perform poorly take up seats from kids who perform better is a recipe for resentment at the least, and pure hatred at worst. It is a mix of confirmed stereotypes and leaves students of color to live with all of their achievements being questioned because of these types of practices.
Here's your recipe for diversity: teach kids of color better in elementary school -- the one they attend -- spend resources to educate their parents too.
Then, when they have the scores, send them to these highly selective schools.
Since when are Pakistanis, Indians, Cambodians, and the myriad other ethnicities whose children outcompete white kids in school, no longer people of color? Because they do well on test? Shame on you for thinking it.
66
I'm afraid "Fruminous" is wrong in attitude as in spelling. (Look it up.)
5
I teach in a diverse public elementary school in Manhattan where my daughter is a student (not in my class!). I am writing to dispute the idea that classrooms must necessarily go at the pace of the "slowest learner," as many commenters have argued. There are many ways to address learning differences in the classroom that benefit both "slow" and "fast" learners. While the most severely impaired students may need a more specialized setting, I firmly believe that well-trained and resourced teachers can effectively teach a wide range of learners in the same classroom and that this benefits everyone. I often find that my "special ed" kids have more creative and profound ideas than my "general ed" kids, if only they are given the opportunity to develop them.
6
You may be right. But I think that you will have an extremely hard time convincing large numbers of parents of top-tier students. And whether you are right or not, are you willing to risk further segregation as parents of some (many?) of these top performing kids find the most challenging opportunities for their children, perhaps outside of the New York City public school system?
3
Schneiderman: I think you're right that large numbers of privileged parents are not open to being convinced of this. And I understand your point about these parents fleeing the system. I don't think an integration plan like this one is the solution to our very complex problems in NYC, but I do think it can be a part. There is a lot more to be done in providing resources to under-resourced families WAY before middle school so that every child can reach his or her potential. And I know that not every teacher has as much background as I do in how to educate a diverse class together.
I went to a high school that still had busing in Va. It was FABULOUS and the best educational experience of my life. I am white. The school was 20% white, 20% Black, 20% Latino, and a lot of students from other countries whose parents were working in D.C. It was the busing that made the school diverse, and the diversity that made the school great. I became a civil rights lawyer later because of the impact that school had on me.
9
From an outsider prospective: If a kid in a bad school is moved to a better school than a child from the good school will be moved in that bad school. If you are the parent of that child that goes to the bad school I don't think you care very much about the fact that in time all the schools will get better, you care how is the school that you child attend when he attends it. Sure some racism will be involved but I think a lot of parent just wants to fight for their child to get them the best options and it will be difficult to move children to bad schools. From what I understand by reading US paper the difference between public schools in the US are huge, that increase the fears of parents to send their children to worse schools.
Here in Italy we don't have that amount of difference between schools because the funding for public school is not connected to the taxes on the houses in the school area but we still have difference because better students makes for better schools but the differences are not so stark. That said your better schools are probably better then ours, we level the field, that would mean not horrible schools but not great school either. I believe than in other european countries the schools funds are also not connected to the taxes on the houses.
If I misunderstood how the school funding worsk in the US I apologize
7
What Gre says about U.S.school funding is all too true. It's as if designed to strengthen inequality of education and accomplishment. However, that doesn't apply to New York City because the city is one funding unit. The disparities in city schools are due to unequal allocation of funds (caused by politics) and poor improvement strategies, in my opinion. There are known ways to improve schools but they are rarely applied and often don't get support from the managers.
2
I hear about 'underfunded' schools. Like NYC, our city has all types of neighborhoods. Some have more high priced homes than others. Those schools do not get more funds per student. They however can allocate them differently. In fact, schools with more lower priced homes tend to receive more funds through federal programs.
Once the monies enter the individual school they are used to benefit its unique population. If school A needs four hall monitors= two teachers to keep the peace, that is a part of the funding. If school B needs no monitors, those teachers (2) may teach AP classes, or classes in Art History.
Our school has converted three classrooms into tutoring, counseling and administrating an At Risk Youth program. Yet another school receives additional funding because its size actually warrants closure but the neighbor has lobbied to keep it open. The districts funds special programs like dance to warrant its status as a school. It's graduation rate is low despite the additional funds....about X plus twenty percent. Is it an underfunded school? Our school funds AP classes and an Honors curriculum based on the theory that 'if you can already ride a horse, your right as a student is to learn how to jump'. And....the class sizes were over average across the board to allow for smaller classes in other areas. In a sense, they were loosely tracked. The honors classes required 500 to 1000 word essays each week and 50 to 100 pages of reading a night.
2
The problem is really about housing and economic segregation. Cities, towns and neighborhoods used to be much more diverse in terms of income levels. Starting in the 1970s a self segregation started based on income which ensures that the wealthy towns are mostly white or asian and the less wealthy are black or hispanic. Now when you mention a neighborhood or a town people immediately know the ethnic makeup and the income level. I used to live in a town that was very integrated and my wife and I were one of the few white people on our street but when our kids were ready for first grade we moved, not because we were racist but because it was our responsibility as parents to ensure that our kids went to the best school that we could afford.
7
Instead, shouldn't the goal be for all NYC public schools to be high-performing? Or have we just given up on providing a good education to all American children?
7
High-performing means high-performing students, not schools. Good schools are good because students are good. The question is how to make every student good.
2
This article has me very confused. We are using 'poor performing' as a proxy for 'minority'.
If the worry is about diversity, surely there are high performing minority students who can go to these great schools?
I don't think (most) peoples problem is with the diversity of race/religion. It is about quality of student.
I am all for a mix of races being it doesn't affect the education given. Why is taking poor students and putting them into harder schools a noble cause?
39
Answer to Chris: Because being poor in schoolwork is not a guarantee of inability. Maybe it means (for example) the teaching is badly affected because some of the class is too hungry to pay attention and gets disruptive. (I'm not making this up.)
8
@Thomas
Then let's address the cause not the symptom. Same kids will continue to be hungry and underperform whether they're in AP Calc or remedial math.
While it's not a perfect barometer, I can't think of a stronger precursor for academic potential then previous academic success.
1
All Students deserve a reasonable standard of School, as well as Home. This article describes the poor state that New York City is in, thus The United States. Since Trump is known for Bankruptcy, and Pence is known for Inequality... I do not think things are going to get any better. Clearly, considering the resources for spending that the USA and NYC have, the leadership is not doing its job with reasonable intelligence. This is cause for The World Court, and Supreme Court, to step in. I don't know why they haven't yet. ----- On a positive note, I am sure this problem will be solved in the Future.
1
The “world court” making decisions in NYC schools? Heard of the Constitution ?
3
Paul-- Yes, I went to Law School, and took Constitutional Law. Then, in a PhD program, after Law School, I was exposed to World Law. World Law, is above Country Law, in the hierarchical structure.
Kim Susan Foster, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, NYC spends $18,620 per pupil. In general, its lower income Districts spend more.
In Baltimore, last time I looked, each day half the students were absent from their $15,000 per year high schools.
My kids were attending a public school in such a wealthy district that the boys in my son's class would compare the prices of the cars (Ferraris, Lamborghinis, etc) that each kid was dropped off from. I transferred them to another, academically superior public school, and was delighted to see kids of all colours arriving, mostly by bike.
Both my kids have now travelled the world and have had companions of many races. Their multi-cultural education may not open doors on Wall St, but it has opened their eyes to the rest of the world.
18
Eddie, people like you make me smile and believe social progress is still possible.
6
If you aren't familiar with the racial demographics of the public school system in the city (or the city at large), you should take a look at how few white students there are in general.
This UWS business is a hot-button issue but remember that there are thousands of schools in the city, and for every one that has the wrong number of white students or whatever the problem is here, there are countless others that don't have any and are struggling because of their own issues and will continue to struggle until those communities emnbrace education or are empowered to do so.
34
This is the right thing to do. A good education is a right. State attacks on funding for public schools are a violation of that right.
This means sending disadvantaged students to advantageous schools. By necessity it also means sending advantaged students to historically disadvantaged schools.
Given present circumstances, the latter case in particular carries hidden but very significant costs for many middle class families.
At such schools, science and math are abysmal. Teachers are unqualified and counselors are ineffective. Actual corruption is common.
And the best colleges accept few if any white or Asian-American middle class applicants from these schools, even when they are the top students in their class.
No wonder that 60% of families here now send their high school students to private schools which cost more than $25 thousand per year.
We have firsthand experience in such schools. No amount of parent advocacy can fix their present problems which are simply a snapshot of the problems of society at large.
10
So noble of you, lets volunteer your kids first.
4
Thank you for your reply, Chris. We did send out young people to those schools.
Chris wrote:
"So noble of you, lets volunteer your kids first."
2
My son was lucky enough to attend Computer, Mr. Zymeck's school. It was terrific and I would recommend a school with this degree of diversity for everyone.
Glad I don't live in the Bronx anymore and not something I need to think about. The NYC public school education was substandard 20 years ago and that was in a predominantly white school. Can't imagine what it's like now. My daughter had a lot of catching up to do in Catholic high school. Fortunately for her she did.
7
and now it's the opposite... NYC public schools (at least the ones that have good principals, teachers and a strong PTA serve their children well. My son attends a well-regarded school in Brooklyn and is far more advanced than his cousins who attend a private school in Florida. My son isn't exceptionally academic, either. He's fairly regular.
9
John Oliver did a special on school integration. When white students are moved to lower income schools the education improves for all because white parents demand and receive changes that lead to a better quality experience for all students. By saving 25% of the seats for lower income students at high performing public schools and shifting those 25% to other schools that they wouldn't voluntarily attend all schools in NY will ultimately benefit.
I grew up in a school system that did the same thing. The high school in the wealthy part of town saved 10% of their seats for those of us who were poor. I received a much better education than I would have if I had been stuck in a low income unsupported school and many of us lower income kids went on to college. Done properly this is a win for everyone.
Reagan set us back with his dismissive attitude towards integration. We would be a lot farther ahead on race relations and poverty if he hadn't encouraged us to backslide as a nation.
10
But you see what is happening? The public schools are saying, “we can’t fix our own problems, let’s bring in a bunch of white people to an underperforming school because those white parents will demand improvements.” Why are white parents responsible for fixing the public school system? And why are white students the guinea pigs in school improvement plans?
13
This is an intractable problem because the quality of a school is primarily determined by the type of student who attends the school, which is determined by the type of parents of the student. If you increase the number of low performing students in any school, that school will become a worse school. Whenever a low-performing student attends a certain school, that school becomes incrementally worse, and whenever a high achieving student attends a school, that school becomes incrementally better. It’s not a matter of race but of families who emphasize education and responsibility. The people who clamor for desegregation have it all backwards—it’s not the school that makes the student but the students who make the school. Remember, wherever you go, there you are.
Attempts to desegregate will only backfire, with middle class flight. Don’t underestimate the means that middle class and upper middle class educated parents would take to ensure a high quality education for their children.
35
I have seen proof of this in my village in central NY. In the last 9 years, working people have been replaced by welfare people. This community is 98% white, so there is no racial element involved. Our schools, in the past, were rated on a 1-10 scale, at a 7. Now, with the expanding welfare families, our schools are rated at a 3. Working people with children are no longer buying houses here because of the low ranking of the schools. Those houses have been sold to slumlords, who rent them out as rooming houses to welfare families. The school district had to open another class to accommodate the infusion of socially and educationally deprived children. Many, nationwide, want to blame teachers. We have the same teachers now as we did when our schools were highly rated. Family values, or the lack there of, are responsible.
5
Leave us alone! Experiment with your own kids.
19
Why not band together and advocate for your child? every child deserves the best education and that happens when a parent is ALL in. The NYT has written articles of parent teacher nights where no one shows up. No amount of funding in the world will produce decent results UNLESS parents are 100% invested and realize that school is not somewhere you park your kid. I'm a product of the NYC school system, I was a minority student in that my high school, my local school, was over 75% African American, I'm not. My parents NEVER missed a parent teacher night, many of my classmates' parents did.
So the final honor roll? the top ten students? 9 white students and one Asian student. I'm not certain my presence moved the dial for my far less interested or academically capable classmates? I was in a class where a teacher threw a chair against a wall in frustration due to the non-stop disparaging comments to his manhood by teenage boys. This occurrence was decades ago, I felt scarred by my NYC public school education.
Social experiments need clear guidelines, if the solution is 25% of seats will be reserved for less able students than programs need to be structured to address those students' weaknesses. Otherwise it will be like my hs experience all over again, being held hostage by disinterested students who rather provoke chaos than learn.
36
Similar experience in the 70s. HS was crummy then, and it is now. My kid is bored to tears in HS except for the social component (in an integrated school). Surely we could have done better in the last 40 years. The academics in her integrated school are either integrated and crummy or stratified and less crummy.
Where does all the money for education actually go? And why are we in a race to the bottom for tax breaks [i'm a small developer - i dont seek tax breaks; if i can survive at the market rate, surely the behemoths can as well].
And private schools are a joke. The curriculum is likewise...stodgy, the perceived academic upside is just a filter to keep unprepared kids out; and Exeter, Andover, etc just filter for future Goldman Sachs piranhas, or if they have a signaling conscience, than NGO piranhas, who are just a different type of indifferent predator. What is the answer? What is the question (said Gertrude Stein)
6
Another angle rarely discussed--stronger black and Hispanic students are cherry picked off to private schools eager to diversify, and charter schools also heavily recruit stronger students from those demographics. Plenty of parents are also reluctant to send their kids long distances for school, and poorer students are more likely to live in areas poorly served by mass transit. This leaves a reduced pool of stronger students to apply to the academically successful public schools.
19
I’m a white man. I went to school in 1970s Coney Island . And my biracial child is in high school in Providence. At a recent school meeting, admins said: “if you have a problem with our altered and now inclusive curriculum you’re a racist”.
This was directed at the parent cohort, there to say, “we truly support integration and this school, and recognize that the children from our cohort are already prepared for education due to our privilege . How do we address these issues of preparation without losing the already prepared kids, instead of pretending otherwise?” Course work many steps below the abilities and desire to engage of 1 group will lose that segment. That’s when we were shut down, not by the other parents, but by the admins. And sure, the shoe is on the other foot for a change, but surely there's a better way.
How does one engage with that system, because now we are sacrificing a different set of kids. As if it’s redress for the entire prior 80 years of public education…’now it’s your turn to look out the window in boredom’
There is the abhorrent philanthropy of ‘prep for prep’ etc (abhorrent because it should be the rule and not the exception, and then we wouldn’t be having this conversation) But why not focus on building support programs for kids who need academic help - merely by putting all kids together doesn’t pull the kids underneath to the top. It remains stratified, the kids know it, and you can see it in their resigned gaze and joyless classes.
15
The children will be fine with it, the parents not so much! Kids have to be taught to hate.
2
Let's play this out. The quality of said schools decrease as they purposely place poorer performing students in with higher performing ones. So the parents move to places with lower taxes and just send their kids to private school, to give their kids the best education possible. Funding declines, the school spirals downward and the quality of all public schools goes down.
How about we lift up underfunded schools instead of forcing our high performers to slow down?
'We need more bad students in these great schools' What parent is going to be ok with that??? Our kids aren't toys in a social experiment.
Focus on equality of opportunities, not outcomes.
23
the idea that a minority of kids who are underperforming will somehow radically damage the educational fortunes of so-called high performers is incredibly insulting to the high- and low-achievers alike. It caricatures the low-performers as educational wrecking balls, and paints the high achievers as hothouse flowers whose intelligence can only be cultivated in the most perfect of conditions. Give both groups more credit. My kids attend a school with much higher percentages of kids from low-achieving areas. It is still one of the highest-performing schools. Maybe tie the acceptance of more poverty-stricken kids to a bunch of extra funding -- and why do you assume all the lowest performing kids will all be tracked into the exact same classrooms as the highest performing ones? Even in affluence schools, there's a range of abilities, and those rich schools are required to provide services for kids who need extra help. Why not just make sure those kids with lower scores are privy to the same advantages that kids who were previously in the affluent schools,but needed extra help, received?
3
IMO Middle School is too late for that. By then you can kids years behind their peers and then its a detriment to all to put them in a school they are not qualified for.
Sure, kids from good family's and strong academic history will continue to succeed through the plan. Reality is some kids are more advanced and if we want to get the best of future generations we should enhance everyone, not drag the top down to lift the bottom.
2
I am SO glad to hear this!
When we were touring elementary and middle schools on the Upper West Side, I couldn't believe the amount of de facto segregation. Having been raised and taught in an extremely integrated school system, I was beyond surprised to see classrooms that were primarily African-American and Latino on one side of the hallway and classrooms that were primarily white on the other side. This is segregation within each individual school!
Part of this came from the reprehensible "gifted and talented" program. Aren't all children gifted and talented in one way or another? Parents who have the resources to give their four-year-old kids test training have an advantage over less fortunate parents.
Not only that, on one of the tours that I was on, one African-American parent said to the tour guide, "these classes are segregated!" to which the guide simply replied, "No they're not." The parent left the building -- understandably.
And then, when our child got into PS 87 -- an excellent school, by the way -- the catchment changed. Where there was extreme diversity when we started out, it became a catchment that was only for those that were in the neighborhood -- which is upper middle class through the top 1 percent in terms of income.
These parents changed the entire feel of the school. They acted like the school was their own private school... I must say the principal handled it quite well, though.
More power to this initiative!
3
There is a simple remedy to your concern about P.S. 87: Move to Harlem or Bed-Stuy and enroll your child in a majority African-American school.
3
"Aren't all children gifted and talented in one way or another?"
The answer is NO.
11
I wish them all the best. We voluntarily sent our child to a high poverty magnet program with the best of intentions. By third grade she was bored, bullied and hated school. When we told her teacher we were applying to private schools, she was thrilled because she believed that things would only get worse for our child if we continued in the public school system. I'll never regret giving that magnet program a shot nor will I ever regret pulling my child out when it proved it be a bad idea. Fortunately, we found an independent school with a robust aid program that supports a very diverse student body in addition to demanding academics that my child needs to thrive.
32
Kudos to Harry Zyneck and to the parents fighting for inclusion. While deBlasio can do more let's not forget the way that Mike Bloomberg exploded the problem of segregation by prioritizing charter schools over public forcing uncomfortable relocations no one wanted, punishing teachers for problems not of their making and of course the massive re-zoning that displaced low income families.
3
i wonder what the outcome would be if these parents tried facing their fears and made a commitment to support this plan. what an example they'd set for their children. new york city doesn't have to go the way of boston.
4
huh, there is very little difference between NYC and Boston. Both completely stratified, polarized, segregated. The parochialism is huge in both cities. I grew up in NY, lived in Boston, and now live elsewhere in the north east. The issues of poverty, corruption, and real estate shenanigans are similar in all places, and that's what's keeping us all tangled in education.
2
How about allowing residents of the Upper West Side to apply the high schools that District 2, FAR WHITER than the Upper West Side, hoards? How about noting which of the parents who support the plan only have kids at the City Wide selective schools like Andersen? And why is Andersen not part of this? How about suggesting to Mr. Zymeck that his attitude will likely result in more parents moving out of District 3 (or even just pretending to have apartments in District 2)?
8
If someone has enough money to move just because they don't like their school choices, they do not need more advantages, the children who are precariously holding on to even live in their historic communities, those kids need an advocate. Bravo for Zymeck's "attitude"
7
Forcing integration will not resolve the segregation in NYC (or anywhere else):
1) Parents of high-performing students from stable families will move out of NYC to the suburbs or send their children to private school
2)Creating classrooms with children of different abilities in the same room will result in major behavioral issues for all students. High achievers will be bored and misbehave and the low achievers will be frustrated and misbehave; the two groups will not co-exist peacefully as a result. More importantly, none of the students will get the educational support that they need.
3) So much of a child's academic success is rooted in their home life and their parent's focus on education. Simply placing students from families who care tremendously about education with students whose families do not, does not address the lack of support some students may receive at home, which ultimately results in poor academic performance. To help even academic achievement, the focus needs to be on determining why lower-income students perform more poorly and what additional support can be given to them to help them achieve academic success.
Lastly, no matter how progressive or supportive of diversity, no parent who cares about their child's education is going to have their child be the "guinea pig" for integration especially after all the historical examples and failures across the country.
73
Why are different abilities a behavioral issue? Yes, academic success is rooted in home life, but that doesn't mean that a kid without much wealth can't know some kid who has wealthand go over his house to study, play, etc. If wealthy parents leave NYC then I hope they're all atheists, because that certainly isn't the Judeo-Christian thing to do. (I don't know enough about other religious faiths to comment).
Lower income students perform more poorly on average because they don't have the same tools and resources. How about all wealthy parents eschew getting SAT prep and tutors for their kids? Let's see what happens to their scores, then.
Being selfish isn't a virtue. Sharing is.
3
You seem to think that education is merely training for the rat race.
Even if within the narrow scope of academics, there's room, there's need, for an enormous range of talents and abilities.
3
@newyorkerva; you are conflating differences in ability with differences in wealth. AEWB rightly understands that classrooms with wide differences in ability result in behavioral issues; no one is saying that kids of different wealth levels shouldn't be together. That is simply the way this principal and the ridiculous new Chancellor have chosen to represent the issue. Public school parents are happy to have their kids with kids of different races and socioeconomic statuses as long as they are all coming to school at a level of academic readiness and functionality.
i would say, as long as black children don’t grow up with white friends (and vice-versa) in school, white people with good intentions will remain applauding ideas like this from the wings. and wishing “those people” well.
8
It's nice that people think that children from 'advantaged' families 'have enough', but per state law these children are compelled to attend. Its inhumane to sort them at the door and bench them because they are above the academics the school staff has decided to offer. All children come to learn. No one comes to review. No one comes to sit in study hall. Maybe one day we can elect a BoE that can figure out how to serve all compelled children, not just their fav subgroup.
I am thankful I went to DoD schools. Didn't matter if you were the General's kid or a Private's, you were placed by instructional need and your teacher taught you, instead of rejecting you at the door on day one.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
15
Same here in CA! We need to end the de facto segregation that exists even in our liberal communities, which exists not because of race, but because of economics. Equal opportunities for all is the best way to push society forward.
3
>> setting aside 25 percent of the seats at every middle school in the district for children with low scores on state exams
I've been there, done that and Got the the T-Shirt.
I was in NYC public schools when they were first "integrated" in the 60s. It was called "busing" then. All that happened was classes got very crowded, resources became scarce, the smart kids segregated themselves into groups for peer learning. Over the years I've discovered there are few things more important than peer learning and having others who are better than you to work up to. That won't happen here for the kids already in that school. Sorry.
40
Why oh why can't the NYC/NYS DOE simply set its sights on improving all schools? Give all kids, the advantaged and the disadvantaged, the opportunity to attend good safe schools staffed by highly effective teachers and administrators that incorporate strategies to promote parental involvement? Of course it would be a huge undertaking at so many levels, but how many generations of kids have to attend subpar schools until this great city gets it right? Instead the DOE essentially acknowledges the existence of dysfunctional zoned schools by telling parents they can exercise "choice" to send their kids elsewhere. It's shameful. All kids deserve better.
24
I agree that the DoE should want to improve all schools. But the truth is wealthy parents exacerbate the gap in tools that help a kid learn. From tutors to test prep, opportunity is not equal. There will always be remarkable children who come from disadvantaged background, but isn't the fact that the background called "disadvantaged" telling?
4
@newyorkerva
So as parents, we shouldn't give our kids the best we can? I sacrificed to get into a high tax area with great schools, go without so my kids can have the best support I can afford.
I'm by no means rich, but I don't resent those who have more and can do more.
Why are trying to punish parents who try to do the best by their kids?
7
Here in LA (and I'm sure NYC) rents, housing costs, etc vary greatly - by even a street - based on the zoned school. I think it's wonderful to diversify schools that are de facto segregated. But - I do not think it's right to move kids out of their local school to do so. In other words, expanding a school is great - but sending kids out of their zone, not by their choice, I do not think is right. We planned so carefully for our kids school - I can understand frustration when you've planned and then your kids are moved. But - adding kids - to equalize education is only a good thing.
6
I favor switching schools without warning. That way home prices are not based on schools, but on the house, the real estate. If you don't know where your kid is going to be educated, you'll care about education everywhere.
2
So when all the rich people leave and just send there kids to private schools, who is supporting you?
Good people will always do what they can for their kids. How can you make that seem like a bad thing?
4
Welcome to reality.
NYC upper middle class is racist, elitist, dishonest, Hillary Clinton crowd, there are 2 options for NYC parents, send your kid to a Private School and pay the price tag or segregated public school. As if these people give a damn about poor kids. It has been the reality on the ground for 20 years, NYC is Alabama on steroids, but it is related to "real estate" as per our dishonest mayor.
7
Why did you have to throw Hillary in there...leave the woman alone.
14
Hillary Clinton is not from NYC, makes your comment seem like an irrelevant dig.
6
We sent our children to screened NYC public high schools, both of which rank near the top in (i.e. non-White) diversity. However, neither school had a substantial enrollment of Blacks. To which I say, so what? My kids worked hard and sacrificed time to earn their place at well-managed schools. Any child of any race can do the same in New York City. That is a fact. The high school admissions process is a gauntlet, but well worth the rewards. The Dept of Ed needs to focus on improving all schools with their existing and enviable resources.
4
Brown versus the Board of Education wasn't exactly a roaring success story for Boston - in fact whites vacated Boston in droves.....those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. It would be preferable to think outside of the box...Why don't some black & Latino parents have more agency for their children? What isn't working at failing neighborhood schools? (there must be an analysis somewhere?). This whole issue as reported is bereft of solid data and analysis
32
"There is nothing new under the sun"
Whether it's Bel-Air, Birmingham, or Manhattan. Be it the 20th or the 21st century, America will always be America.
5
My children's schools have since the day they opened reflected the diversity that is New York City. But they are Success Academy charter schools, and the New York Times would never report on them in a positive light.
19
the numbers don't bear it out. SA CEO Eva Moskowitz has behaved shamefully towards some of the most disadvantaged students, created a needless lottery system to enter her abusive schools and then told us all that she is the magic fairy, please divert public school funds to her, no thanks to SA, would never send my children there.
4
This is a run of the mill story about rich white parents that want their schools integrated with impoverished children. Black and Hispanic kids are herded into ghetto schools, the first stop on the way to prison. "That must change. We DEMAND it."
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What the story doesn't talk about is also interesting. Long story short. "Black" 5 times. "White" 8 times. "Hispanic" 0 times. "Latino" 4 times. "Asian" 0 times. "Jew" 0. "Muslim" 0. Whites, Blacks and Hispanics have been integrated for more than 50 years. Isn't it about time our other neighbors got on board?
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When will we read the story of the Muslim parents demanding that their school be integrated with Jews? After all, doesn't integration create more understanding and empathy? I read that some where. Or, is religion different than color?
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Diversity. Diversity. Diversity.
10
This is about PUBLIC schools. There are no religious public schools!!!
1
Thanks, Mr. Zymeck.
9
Let's me honest, "better" schools are not better because they have more government funding.
They are better because the nature of the families who send their kids to them -- higher educated, higher income, and probably some cultural attitudes and behaviors about education and achievement (the kind of attitudes and behaviors that made those families more affluent in the first place).
If you want to run these families out of town to the burbs or into private schools, continue with this kind of policy.
97
Better schools do not teach the attitude of learning 'just enough for the pass'. They teach enough material that nonremedial students who study can earn 90+ on the Regents' Exams, not 'just enough' for the 65.
There are other criteria for 'better' schools. They won't be achieving academically two grade levels on average below their socioeconomic peers. They will offer a full schedule of appropriate academic classes to all their students. etc etc. Without funding from the gov't, they won't have the ability to hire the teaching staff to offer the courses that the minority of students need --students will be consigned to study hall if they can't pony up for Community College classes, which in NY the family must pay for; and the other minority will not receive sufficient remediation or medical care.
4
Then let them go.
7
Won't all this; e.g. 25% of placements in rich kid schools to be set aside for poor kids; create overcrowding? I mean what happens to the original occupants of those 25% placements? Are classroom sizes now 25% larger, or are 25% of the rich kid student population now to be sent down to the poor kid schools? Also, what about the unfortunate 75% left behind at the poor kid schools? What do they gain?
7
Bump out to go where?
1
I experienced this in Providence RI in the 70s. We still had segregated classes based on test scores, but the kids from the poorer areas often bullied the better off kids when they had a chance (hallway, gym). I can imagine it will be that much worse if all the classes are integrated.
BTW, the worse bullies were white. It was more of a socio-economic thing than a racial one.
15
Same experience here, but in NY state. If you tested into the higher level classes, you were a target and basically stayed away from the public spaces as far as possible. We ate lunch in class to avoid the cafeteria, used the bathroom in the nurse's office, etc.
2
Yes, school integration must happen in NYC and everywhere.
However please don't be fooled, it's especially difficult to educate the first wave. A first wave failure can mean it's all uphill from then on. And if the 'plan' is simply push and cheer upon integration, schools will absolutely fail to educate students and a critical mass of parents among all races will say 'I told you so.'
Worst of all, students will be cheated by adults who fail them by failing to plan.
Yes, capable NYC principals and parents can create new policy - by choice or default, but integrated schools call for a genuine strategic plan and resources to match.
I learned so many difficult lessons as a parent during the integration of a middle school in Lander's segregated District 15.
The core of the imperative strategic plan for middle schools?
Teachers need to be capable and trained to teach a vast range of tweens academic and social skills. (Yes, the differences exist because NYC elementary schools are 'have and have not'.)
Then for schools to succeed, teachers and students need:
a. assistant or peer teachers in every class
b. principals and guidance counselors trained to anticipate and manage the wide range of social crises that will occur, especially in 8th grade. Crisis management is intervening for BOTH the struggling tweens and the tweens who suffer stress and stop studying because they witnesses the struggle.
To paraphrase: It is worth doing, it is worth doing well.
We all depend on it.
11
Jon Oliver did a segment a while ago talking about the most segregated place in the US and I thought he was going to say that it was somewhere in the South. Instead it was progressive New York City. Parents, journalists, many teachers have done their part to encourage change. However, it's NYC progressive politicians--the mayor, whoever--who lack political will. It must be good to use black and Latinos as trophies during a campaign. I'd demand more than that. I have personally witnessed the conditions of the schools where Puerto Rican and Central American kids receive instruction. The differences are abysmal.
9
After eight years of dealing with my fellow affluent white parents at private and charter schools, I had had enough. Their sense of entitlement and over-the-top helicopter parenting was seriously grossing me out. For high school, we chose a large urban magnet public school where our kid was in the minority (30 percent white, 65 percent Latino, 5 percent other). One friend, whose kid was going to a nearly all-white suburban school, expressed shock and suggested that we were being negligent! But, as it turns out, it was the best decision we had ever made. Because of the magnet status, the school was unusually well funded (for Arizona) and he enjoyed a ton of electives. He got an excellent education. He was happy and he learned early to navigate in the diverse society that he is going to live in for the rest of his life.
25
That was not the case at the school I sent my kid to. It was a minority-majority school with special education programs, ESL, and programs for hearing impaired in addition to a wide-variety of other options. A significant portion of the students were on free and reduced lunch programs as well. So, it was hardly some crypto upper middle class enclave. Every magnet program is different so please don't generalize our experiences in Arizona based on your experiences in another state.
1
NYC parents of all colors are thrilled with a well-resourced, well-funded school. This is not about parents not wanting integrated schools, it is about the quality of the schools.
3
As a beneficiary of having gone to an integrated school, 50/50 black/white (no Hispanics in our area) in Pittsburgh in the 1960s and 1970s, I can say that the experience was incredibly beneficial. As kids we grew up together and treated each other as kids even though half came in on the bus and the other half walked to school. I am sure that is why I also learned about black history as well as white history growing up and counted among my heroes Harry Belefonte and Roberto Clemente. So go for it, NYC parents, it is well worth it.
24
Sounds nice - but fact-challenged...
Edsall shot from the hip on this topic a while back - you go find out the real numbers, this time...
Link was in my comment...
Hint: Queens has been far more integrated than either Manhattan or Brooklyn for some time...
Real story is why...
Second hint: "black" mentioned five times - "asian" not mentioned once...
20
In Brown v. Board of Ed, the Supreme Court said that state laws requiring separate schools for black and white students was unconstitutional, unfair and wrong. That was segregation. Middle class parents always consider schools when they think about where to live. Wealthier people have more freedom to make choices, but that's not state segregation. From my many years in teaching, few parents give a damn what color their children's classmates are. They do care very much that their child get the best education possible.
When children are behind academically, the entire classroom slows down. A teacher can only do so much educate'n in a day. When a third of the first graders are still working on letter recognition, the kids who are already reading chapter books are going to be bored, whether they are Black, white or bright green.
The fact that Stuyvesant's students are over 70% Asian and 21% white, is not due to white racism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School
Middle class parents want their children to be successful and engaged in school. The academic success of a student is overwhelmingly due to a family's respect for education. There are plenty of Black and Hispanic parents who make sure their kids are successful in school.
New York spends twice as much to educate students as California does. More money helps, but it will not solve the problem.
https://www.jbhe.com/2018/02/the-racial-gap-in-advancement-placement-tes...
84
Parents have to care and insist on consistent and constant discipline as well. This past Tuesday, I went to the movies on the Upper West side...there were hundreds of school age kids at the 84th street theatre midweek. You'd NEVER catch my kids at a movie on the weekdays, as they would be eating dinner and doing their homework....and they graduated from Ivy League colleges. That's what it takes.
27
"When children are behind academically, the entire classroom slows down. A teacher can only do so much educate'n in a day. When a third of the first graders are still working on letter recognition, the kids who are already reading chapter books are going to be bored, whether they are Black, white or bright green. "
Maybe. But my experience at an Ivy League university was that when children are taught that performance on tests and adherence to elitist codes are the most important keys to success, and a person who questions received knowledge and rejects high-pressure track is someone to avoid, the entire classroom slows down and the best thinkers get bored.
You can't win 'em all, can ya?
For my part, I've learned a lot from those "slow" students. And used what I learned to identify and benefit from the blind spots of the "good" students, like when they proceeded to run our economy off a cliff, twice in ten years. So I'm pretty happy that my kids have spent most of their public school education in the same classroom with "slow" students. They're learning to see more of the real world, and they'll be more capable as a result.
21
Or to put it another way, are you really so worried your children will become bored because they have to be around students who don't think like they do? You expect no more of your children?
8
i hope that more white parents show the courage and conviction of henry zymeck and mara gray. things will change only when they acknowledge that black and brown kids deserve the same opportunities as their own kids.
25
It's not a question of who deserves what. It's a question of whether people want low performing kids moved into their children's currently high performing classrooms. As everyone with a kid in school knows, the classroom runs at the speed of the lowest common denominator, and can be derailed completely with behavioral issues. It's not fair to ask parents to sacrifice their own kids educations in pursuit of some societal goal.
92
It's not only was 'kids deserve' or are 'entitled to' - what about parents' culpability in fostering their children to the utmost?! - like doing the best to provide a stable environment, a place to study in quiet, expecting a child to listen, behave and work hard. As they say, it takes two to tango. Why not have classes for parents to teach them HOW TO help their children SUCCEED???
11
Of course it's fair. Public education is tax-funded, and many of us pay taxes to fund other people's children's education, while having none of our own. We do this because public education IS in pursuit of a societal goal, and not because we're invested in the individual success of someone's "own," specific child. Parents who disagree can send their kids to private school. Those who can't afford private school should be on a level playing field, and not segregated into winners and losers based on their zip code or their race.
America's biggest problem is that we preserve outstanding schools for children who just happen to be rich. We educate the wrong people. We send the Trumps and the Bushes to the Wharton School or Yale, the Kushners to Harvard. This wastes most of our natural talent, and is a travesty for the educators charged with uplifting all these wealthy attractive young dullards we seem to adore. That Principal is brave. The Upper West Side might be the poster child of white privilege, but it's also a dangerous land when the passive aggressive facade drops away. New York City really is and has been one of the worst cities in the nation when it comes to segregation. This is because it's so much richer than most towns. It uses money to achieve everything it desires, sadly segregation is still what many desire. Worse still, I believe from 30 years of conversations with white professional colleagues that they truly believe that they (whites) are more intelligent and talented than non-white. They think intelligence is racially distributed as more than the old George Wallace voters did.
13
I don't think professional whites think intelligence is racially distributed. But social problems in the poor communities are well known, impacts kids learning, and importing that disfunction and lower standards into currently higher performing classrooms is patently unfair to the kids currently there who did nothing to deserve their futures being negatively impacted.
37
We educate the wrong people? Do you really believe there are right and wrong people to educate? Is this about turning the tables, or about improving public education for all children? It should not be a zero sum game. The white public school parents I've met want a good education for their children, not an all white or even majority white school. Isn't that the same thing the non-white parents want?
1
For once I agree with the mayor. We tried this experiment in Boston and it failed miserably. We already know the outcome. Destruction of high achievement schools and white flight. No improvement in minority achievement. Not beneficial to anyone.
71
@older
This situation cannot honestly be compared to Boston, where black children were bused into an ethnic enclave (Southie) that inhabitants violently defended.
7
I disagree with you, I grew up in Boston which has some of the highest performing public schools in the country.
4
@Sallie- New York also has "some" of the highest performing public schools in the country. It's the other schools that are the issue.
1
I agree with the writer, it was really touching to hear him speak up. Now lets rip the scab completely off! Why do certain poor neighborhoods qualify for fewer resources than other ones more prosperous? Are prosperous parents skipping away on property taxes because they know the system, so legally? There's a lot of drilling that needs to happen before I'm impressed after this good start.
7
Well Marty Rowland, Ph.D., P.E., I lack your credentials, but even I know that “poor neighborhoods qualify for fewer resources” is simply the opposite of the truth in NYC. Why do you, an informed citizen believe this? Maybe you need to get outside the social justice echo chamber more.
1
Someone should remind these opposing parents that talking about breaking the barriers of segregation and working for social justice makes for very strong Ivy League application personal statements. Maybe appealing to their own selfish instinct of “what’s best for my own kids” could help nudge them in the right direction...
7
It's a shame those parents aren't capable of making their own decisions for their children's public school education, so a bureaucrat must do it for them. Maybe one day the government can take all decisions away from these horrible people whose only value to society is holding jobs and paying taxes.
18
1970 and we are talking about segregated schools....
2018 and we are talking about segregated schools ..
Are things no better or are we just going backwards?
7
It's not about putting poor black and latino children in better schools with white children, hoping for a better result...it's making sure EVERY SCHOOL in the NYC system is operating with the same amount of money, resources, quality teachers and equipment so that ALL children benefit... It's about ensuring that ALL citizens respect the value of education.
Also, school funding should not come from real estate taxes. Of course, wealthier neighborhoods will have better-funded schools.
Funding for public education needs to come from other means, not real estate.
28
@Christine
Actually research indicates that poor students do benefit academically by attending school with wealthier students.
5
@scsmits -I am sure it goes both ways. Wealthier students can learn a lot from a student who doesn't have access to the things they do.... my point is, why rip kids out of their neighborhoods to throw them in new neighborhoods to attend better schools. Just make sure that all schools have the things to help make every child a success. We are failing ALL our kids, especially the poor ones, who tend to be kids of color!
1
That's not how funding works in NYC. It's not like the suburbs. Actually, some of the 'poorer' schools may have more funds through Title 1. Wealthier schools do raise more PTA funds though...
4
NYC public school parents don't care about race. They care about socio-economic background and family valuation of education. They are resisting having their kids go to school with large numbers of classmates in need of significant remediation, or coming from dysfunctional homes, or from homes where education is not a priority.
Even strong-performing public schools have relatively low numbers of white students. My kids have gone to three different NYC public schools so far, and I think the highest rate of white students was about 30%, all high-performing schools.
If we're going to come up with policies that will actually help disadvantaged kids, we need to stop pretending that it's all about race, which may correlate but isn't the root cause of the problem.
79
Mayor de Blasio is wrong and he's right. It's not the 1970s and people feel differently now about integration than they did. He's right that this can't be fixed by putting black and Hispanic kids in schools with white kids. The kids are going to self-segregate. There is a success sequence that is the elephant in the room. School, job, marriage, kids. People who do it that way, at any income level, fare better. If you can't even imagine that being you, then the families that do it that way will always be "other". Mayor de Blasio is right that poverty needs to be addressed in the neighborhoods. And it should start with encouraging our kids to grow up to be husbands and wives, supporting each other and their kids.
11
Umm, schools don’t have test scores, pupils do. Also, “black and Latino children” have much higher NYC per capita expenditures than white and Asian. You’ve never read that in the NYT because it doesn’t fit the narrative.
Good Schools? My son went to an old, dilapidated NYC public high school. Unlike almost every other American school, this school had no lockers, so students had to trudge up multiple staircases and take mass transit carrying all their books and clothing. Racially, spending was distinctly less than schools with other racial balances. Many students were from low income families with little or no ability to help with English.
Still, I probably should mention that this school, Stuyvesant High School, was often called America’s top high school.
1
I agree with Principal Zymeck when he says, "“To compare these students and say, ‘My already advantaged kid needs more advantage, they need to be kept away from those kids!’ is tremendously offensive to me.”
Congratulations to Arizona teachers and supporters for closing down schools until they got a long overdue raise and some decent funding for public schools.
Every single American who benefitted/benefits from public must step up and DEMAND reasonable funding for K-12 and reasonable financial help for ALL American young people - no matter their race, color or religion - so they/we can flourish in the ever-changing world.
15
Affluent parents buy and rent apartments in NYC based on the school district assuming that they are not sending their kids to private school. If the city attempts to move low performing students into certain districts, the parents will respond in kind by moving their children out electing to go private. Social policy like this needs to comprehend the dynamics of the situation. It especially needs to understand that most people do not want to experiment with their childrens' futures and are not willing to put at risk those futures due to some liberal social justice ideology. Also, there is nothing wrong with local schools reflecting the makeup of a community, even if a particular community happens to be predominantly white or black.
49
The problem with schools reflecting the makeup of their communities is that housing in the United States, particularly in the North, is incredibly segregated both racially and socioeconomically thanks to decades of racially biased policies and banking practices. If public school is supposed to give every American kid a fair start, and if education is the mechanism by which we expect people to be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps then we must go out of our way to account for the inequities reflected in housing. Until we start asking our schools to do good by the larger community: the whole city, the whole state, all children, we'll continue to stifle upward mobility and entrench poverty in minority communities.
9
Or we can get rid of our ridiculous policy of basing school funding on property taxes. Until this changes, kids from poor neighborhoods will always have worse schools.
3
Thanks for this article pointing out that the cup is half full on the school integration debate in New York. It's important to note when a once "rotten barrel" has evolved into a "few vocal bad apples." It's easy for our confirmation bias to point to the bad apples as evidence that the barrel is still rotten, instead of giving support and encouragement to those building a new barrel.
5
I was a college student, in my freshman or sophomore year--I can't remember which--when I met the second black person I'd ever met. As a white girl growing up in segregated Montgomery, I'd never had a chance to meet black people, nor were my parents eager to surround us with blacks. A fact of Southern life in the fifties and sixties.
The second black person I ever met? She was Vivian Malone, one of two black students to break the color barrier at the University of Alabama in 1963. My college roommate arranged for the two of us and a couple of other white girls to attend the county fair with Vivian and befriend her for a few hours. Vivian was a pretty, very pleasant, quiet girl. That afternoon at the fair, she seemed to me to be watchful, always looking from side to side as we walked the midway. Knowing some of her past experiences, I could understand her wariness. Or maybe, like me, she hadn't met many white people, and we were an adjustment for her, too.
After graduation, I went on to teach in Alabama's integrated schools. Now, many years later, I look back on my "segregated life" and realize how much richer I am for the black students I taught and the black colleagues I have come to know and love and have a friendship with. "White privilege" had its disadvantages, too.
52
Thank you, Mr. Zymeck, Ms. Berger. This is a wonderful story. I tried as hard as any other white parent to game the public school system. Fortunately I didn't succeed.
12
As a UWS parent (whose kids both have attended Mr. Zymeck’s wonderful school), I thank those taking bold steps to diversify middle schools and give greater opportunity to kids who face undeniable, entrenched disadvantages in our society. Public schools should be a microcosm of the world we live in, and an incubator for the world we want to see.
Diversity benefits everyone. In my experience, all the truly great schools and kids’ programs in this city are diverse. But that’s because the leaders of these schools and programs go out of their way to attract and integrate a diverse population. Diversity doesn't happen by itself, unfortunately. It takes creative thinking, deliberate action, and ongoing commitment.
I hope other districts are inspired by what’s happening in District 3. Please ignore the paranoid NIMBY types, like the woman in the video that went viral.
49
Patently false, the great schools in the city are the least diverse
13
There’s that word again, ‘diversity’. It’s been denuded of meaning, it’s now means, “look at all the different looking kids in our PR photos” if it’s a public school with a public face, or more usually it’s private schools now and state universities. We dont talk about differences and what makes us all humans together; instead we reinforce silos, we reinforce “this is a taboo subject, you can never say, ‘I look like this, you look like that and yet we both like to play the same game in the schoolyard’”. Those are the conversations we need to be having, instead we pretend when we can point to kids who are in a photo, “oh diversity”. Massive fail.
6